[Tango-L] The subject that never dies.

[Andreas Wichter]

Floyd,

>
> But on the other hand.., it's generally accepted that it did not
> originate with Tango.

This is the first time I hear that statement. How did you get that idea?

>   And I was specifically referring to the 'auto'
> cross as being 'contrary'...

No, you were not. Please reread your post. You referred to the cross. 
That is why I asked.
Even if you had referred to the "automatic cross", you´d have been 
wrong. I know at least one person having learned that in Argentina, 
from Argentinians, and not from shady Unknowns.

>     That it's an addition introduced by
> people other than Argentines.  There were many additions since then of
> course, but with this one it is accepted that it need NOT be led.   As
> least that's how it's been taught to followers as far back as I know
> of it.

Then your tango background must be extremely strange or limited. I have 
known people teaching this automatic rubbish, but most people teach to 
lead and follow the cross. It is certainly not "accepted" that it is 
not led except by a few.


>     I do understand it can be led of course.  But the bigger
> problem for the leader now is to NOT have the lady do it.

If the woman has been taught to cross automatically, you are correct. 
But in most places people just do not teach this. I don´t know about 
Buffalo.

>     How did
> that come to be?   Certainly not by the original thinkers I'm sure.
> Not even the original ladies. They only 'followed'.., didn't they?

How do you know? Were you there? Maybe tango had quite a bit of 
patterning in the beginning, and improvisation snuck in there as the 
structure evolved.

>    I
> doubt the original developers would have allowed it even if they had
> seen other useful good.   The 'auto' cross therefore flys in the face
> of the most fundamental Tango rule.., that every step be led.
> Not only does the lady do the cross on her own.., under circumstances
> she has been taught to 'remember' as the time to do it.., which goes
> against another basic tango concept..., it is also an un-led weight
> change...  ??

See above - just because some people do it that way does not make it 
the "accepted" or "normal" way to do it. You are kicking a strawman 
here, and one of your own making.
The cross is led, as is the weight change at the end. That´s how I do 
it, so there.

>
> So I see it strictly as a 'convention'..  One that leaders have been
> told to accept...   One that has been introduced for many reasons, and
> not all necessarily meant to improve the dance itself..

Tango is actually still quite full of "convention". Check out the older 
Argentinean dancers, many have five or six figures/sequences that they 
vary. The single step tango is mostly a myth and I suspect it is quite 
a modern invention in the consistent sense it is used nowadays.
I frankly don´t know which mythical "original developers" of tango you 
refer to. We don´t know them, and those later ones we know are mostly 
dead now.
And let us not forget that tango is indeed always in development (and I 
am not referring to nuevo).

>
>
> As for the other point..    Improvisational Tango is by definition
> 'unstructured'.


What you are referring to is patterning, which results in rote-learned 
figures.
Tango does have, and needs, structure, especially if it is to be 
improvisational.
It would be interesting to hear the thought of any jazz musicians on 
the list on structure and improvisation.

What you said was  "tango happened before structured thinking came 
along"
And that is...well you know.

>    Unstructured, by definition comes before structured.
> Improvisational Tango as an unstructured dance may have overlapped
> time wise with other 'structured' dances.   But as far as Tango goes
> in and by itself, being developed as it was by those doing the 'one
> step'.., the original unstructured and 'real'  Tango came way before
> structured choreography and the other mechanized versions of Tango
> that we have today.   I know it was a slow process, but it matters
> not.

Fact is that we do not really know much about that. You are wishing 
something into your own subjective reality, maybe to validate whatever 
it is you are doing with tango.

What I could agree on is that tango is fundamentally an improvised 
dance. To say that it has always been perfectly that and that today we 
have all those unfortunate "structures" is baseless. I don´t believe in 
that mythical tango past where there were those guys nobody can hold a 
candle to nowadays.

>     Like with my health for instance.  I look back to my cavemen
> ancestors for good advice on most everything.   Sun exposure scares,
> what one should or should not eat.., etc...   I figure if they got me
> here.., they had to doing things right.     That's a thought that I
> place much more trust in,  than those espoused by people today who
> only want to sell me things.
>
> Tango ancestors are the equivalent here.

I don´t even want to respond to that.

Andreas