[Tango-L] The subject that never dies.

[Floyd Baker]

New copy after needed snipping.   


>> It's generally accepted that it did not originate with Tango.

>This is the first time I hear that statement.

Ok let me rephrase it...  

The cross, as we know it, was not a part of Tango's early development.
It was introduced near the midpoint in Tango's history.   The 'cross'
as a particular dance move may have originated and been in existance
much earlier, and in many other dances, but I never talk about them.  

>>   And I was specifically referring to the 'auto' cross as being 'contrary'...

>No, you were not. Please reread your post. You referred to the cross. 

Ok let me rephrase it...

I was specifically meaning the 'auto' cross as being 'contrary'.

The cross as we know it, has been taught as needing a specific
reaction from followers, at certain times, with no lead given, for as
long as I've known of Tango.  Here in the US.., as I see you're in DE.
>I know at least one person having learned that in Argentina, 
>from Argentinians, and not from shady Unknowns.

Oh of course you have.   Many people have...  I have been taught that
way too by Argentines.   I'm sure many believe or know, that to teach
Americans how to Tango they need to teach rituals and patterns.
American's need to learn where to put their feet.  They have no
understanding, belief, or ability to accept single step improvisation
easily.  Mostly cause they're not even told to try.   So they learn
and memorize all kinds of patterns. 

Argentine instructors seem to know this, and I'm sure that 'some' at
least, teach accordingly.  But they're certainly not inclined to admit
it. 

>It is certainly not "accepted" that it is not led except by a few.

You are not in the US so I will accept what you say about it there.
That's good....

I will say I've seen a significant increase in the awareness of it
being a led move here... Which I have also been promoting with my
students. But I have to show them the auto part because followers are
still more expected to do it by themselves than not.   I show them
auto, and then the different leads they might get that to them, then,
would simply be 'verifification' that it is/was to be done.   If a
leader does not want those who are used to doing it that way, to stop
doing it that way, he will need to scold those ladies into dancing his
way instead.  Instead of letting them enjoy the dance their way.   :-/
You can read more about what I've said about this on my pages if you
wish...  I think I've covered it fairly well...  


>If the woman has been taught to cross automatically, you are correct. 
>But in most places people just do not teach this. I don´t know about 
>Buffalo.

I've found I need 'blend' both into a smooth outcome, with some
understanding needed by the leader in some cases.  So that no matter
which is primary in any particular dance... it will be a pleasant one.
Others do teach the full salida, complete with the auto cross.
Memorized  from end to end and total tango poison.     


>How do you know? Were you there? Maybe ...  <snip>

Maybe so., but maybe's don't count.   Suppositions are simply blowing
smoke.

>The cross is led, as is the weight change at the end. 

I guess by some, or even many...    But the ladies would have done it
anyway.    At least here in the US. 

>That´s how I do it, so there.

I'll pass on that one.   

>The single step tango is mostly a myth and I suspect it is quite 
>a modern invention in the consistent sense it is used nowadays.

You do a lot of ballroom.., don't you...   ;-)   You don't seem
willing to accept the fact there may be another way.

>And let us not forget that tango is indeed always in development (and I 
>am not referring to nuevo).

I guess you could say one is *developing* a headache...   <g>     

>What you are referring to is patterning, which results in rote-learned 
>figures.

I don't follow you...?

Patterning is structure.   Patterns are rote...  Ballroom is rote.
Tango has no moves, no patterns, no memorized routines.  
Tango has no predetermined structure.  There is no rote.

>Tango does have, and needs, structure, especially if it is to be 
>improvisational.

Tango is posture, style and attitude.  Along with three directional
steps and possible pivots between each.  Throw in reversals, speed
changes, exagerations, etc  to those basic components, along with a
few leads to make it all happen in any way the leader feels it should
at any particular time.., and you have Tango.     

Is *that* what you consider structure?   

I guess what we need is you're definition of 'unstructured'...

Can you give me a description of an activity one might engage in, that
you can consider to be 'unstructured'...??   Is there anything?  

My first response was long so I've cut to the chase.  :-) 

Cheers...

Floyd

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *