[Tango-L] Style Wars: Truth and Truthiness

[Konstantin Zahariev]

Clif,

I think Steve's and my post have nothing to do with dancing but are in
a more general sense about the dynamics of a discussion group such as
Tango-L. So I do not see necessarily how you could draw any direct
inferences between _dancing_ and truthiness or authoritarianism,
though yuo may argue something about the _discussions_ here if you
really want to.

Authoritarians come as both leaders and followers (which has nothing
to do with tango leaders and followers or dancing or music).

> Hum, let us for a moment, just for conversations sake, say the right
> wing authoritarian is the tango "leader" and the left wing
> non-authoritarian is the follower. Is one "more" invested in the power
> of the dance than the other or simply opposites of the same coin?
> If they are the same, then does this invalidate your original statement
> of "usually right wing authoritarian..."

My statement was about truth versus truthiness in discussion forums,
nothing to do with dancing. See above.

> Does the right wing "tango leader" have a closer association with the
> music than the left wing "tango follower"?

Sorry I have no idea what you are asking given the concepts. If we
subtract 47 from beauty, is the white train late?

> If in the same frame of thought, the right wing authoritarian is closer
> to the government, is the opposite faction, the left wing
> non-authoritarian, closer to the non-government, anarchist?

No. BTW, fervent informed supporters of communist totalitarian USSR
are also seen as right-wing authoritarians in this framework.

Here are some excerpts from Altemeyer that may help clarify the concepts:

--- begin ---

Authoritarianism is something authoritarian followers and authoritarian
leaders cook up between themselves. It happens when the followers submit too
much to the leaders, trust them too much, and give them too much leeway to do
whatever they want [...]

Right-Wing and Left-Wing Authoritarian Followers

Authoritarian followers usually support the established authorities in their
society, such as government officials and traditional religious
leaders. Such people
have historically been the "proper" authorities in life, the
time-honored, entitled,
customary leaders, and that means a lot to most authoritarians.
Psychologically these
followers have personalities featuring:
1) a high degree of submission to the established, legitimate authorities in
their society;
2) high levels of aggression in the name of their authorities; and
3) a high level of conventionalism.
Because the submission occurs to traditional authority, I call these
followers rightwing
authoritarians. I'm using the word "right" in one of its earliest
meanings, for in
Old English "riht"(pronounced "writ") as an adjective meant lawful,
proper, correct,
doing what the authorities said. [...]

So a right-wing authoritarian follower doesn't necessarily have
conservative political views. Instead he's someone who readily submits to the
established authorities in society, attacks others in their name, and is highly
conventional. It's an aspect of his personality, not a description of
his politics. Rightwing
authoritarianism is a personality trait, like being characteristically
bashful or
happy or grumpy or dopey.

You could have left-wing authoritarian followers as well, who support a
revolutionary leader who wants to overthrow the establishment. I knew
a few in the
1970s, Marxist university students who constantly spouted their chosen
authorities,
Lenin or Trotsky or Chairman Mao. Happily they spent most of their time fighting
with each other, as lampooned in Monty Python's Life of Brian where the People's
Front of Judea devotes most of its energy to battling, not the Romans,
but the Judean
People's Front. But the left-wing authoritarians on my campus
disappeared long ago.
Similarly in America "the Weathermen" blew away in the wind. I'm sure
one can find
left-wing authoritarians here and there, but they hardly exist in
sufficient numbers
now to threaten democracy in North America. However I have found bucketfuls of
right-wing authoritarians in nearly every sample I have drawn in Canada and the
United States for the past three decades. So when I speak of
"authoritarian followers"
in this book I mean right-wing authoritarian followers [...]
--- end ---


With best regards,

Konstantin

Victoria, Canada

> Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
>
> >On Nov 27, 2007 11:52 AM, ClifDavis <clif at clifdavis.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Absolutely amazing. It's those pesky vast right wing conspiracy
> >>authoritarians
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >Before this becomes a huge distraction, I would like to point out that
> >(i) the important word is 'authoritarian', and (ii) 'right-wing' in
> >this context does not refer to or imply political or party orientation
> >since the definition (somewhat redundant) is that of an authoritarian
> >who aligns with the government in power. It is an interesting concept
> >and a hypothesis, so take it or leave it, comment on it or not, just
> >like Steve posted something he found interesting and we are free to
> >take it or leave it, or comment or ignore it.
> >
> >With best regards,
> >
> >Konstantin
> >Victoria, Canada