[Tango-L] Acrimoniousness and the red herring of moderation

Thu Jul 19 10:45:54 EDT 2007

Carol, Mash and everyone,

Perhaps some of you have not been on this list very long.  This list 
has not seen a single flame in YEARS.  There is a little poking and 
teasing, but no flaming. Criticism or disagreement is not 
flaming.  If you want to read real flaming on this list, then go back 
to the archives of 1997 or so.

This list is gentle and polite by comparison to what it used to be. 
Not only did it have real flames, but there was a much worse kind of 
flaming - in private e-mails.  That is why should this list ever see 
any flaming in the future, I encourage people to let others know that 
if they welcome their flames, they all have to be in the public forum 
and not via private communication.

On another note, if you think that you can be bullied on Internet, 
then how do you survive in your real life?  Does whining and 
complaining about the behavior of others without naming them gets you 
the results that you want?

Carols points demonstrate clearly a difference between direct 
aggression and passive aggression.  On this list, it appears that 
people accused of flaming are being directly aggressive towards other 
people and/or their ideas.  Passive aggression is expressed by others 
as hints and abstract ideas without ever naming anyone, but implying 
their identity.  I believe that this difference is cultural.  Even 
though both forms of aggression exist in all cultures, some cultures 
prefer the direct approach while others avoid direct confrontation 
without giving up their own aggression.

To me passive aggression is cowardly, so I probably would be more 
direct if flame wars ever returned to this list.  It is an issue of 
integrity - if I am willing to put my ideas forward, then I have to 
accept the risk that they will be unpopular.  I believe that other 
people have a right to express their disagreement with my ideas 
however it feels right to them, as long as it is legal.  My 
responsibility is to choose my own response.  Trying to control 
others usually does nor work very well.  While the integrity is 
required, suffering, feeling bullied and offended is optional.

As far as tango goes, it really works well to become more Argentine 
than the Argentines are. :)

Best,

Nina

At 03:12 AM 7/19/2007, Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Apparently the answer to Miles' query is that for some reason, in the
>online tango community, the dominant players generate and consume poison
>and unpleasantness as a form of entertainment.
>
>They expect others to be wired the same way.  They feed on provocation
>and conflict and if it is not there in sufficient quantity, they will
>stir the pot.  They engage in display behavior by acting out their
>dominance and they award themselves self esteem points through bullying.
>   These self-esteem points are very easily obtained because everyone is
>remote and there are no social consequences to bullying or other bad
>behavior.
>
>Accordingly, on tango-l there is no consensus (as there is generally in
>polite society) that to be acrimonious and impose your unpleasantness on
>others is morally wrong or stressful on a community, or even bad for
>your karma or your blood pressure.  To the contrary, it is celebrated.
>The community does not want a moderator because the community does not
>want to lose its primary form of entertainment.
>
>It is unfortunate that the highest and most intellectual discussion of a
>particular human endeavor (tango) to be found, as on this list, requires
>subjecting oneself to the petty amusements of others who take their
>entertainment primarily in the form of bullying others, and who justify
>their mean and uncivilized behavior by claiming that it is actually a
>necessary expression of "passion and intensity."
>
>When in Rome, be aware that Romans are going to continue being Romans.
>
>This does not mean that you must be a Roman.
>
>'Mash wrote:
> > I look forward to the day that we can use "flame wars" as a 
> sustainable energy source.
> >
> > 'Mash
> > London,UK
> >
> > "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance."
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 02:28:11PM -0600, Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> >
> >>Amaury,
> >>
> >>On the tango lists, there are only two choices - you either die or be
> >>killed, or grow thick skin.  Welcome to the list1
> >>
> >>Nina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 02:16 PM 7/18/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote:
> >>
> >>>My first experience with list moderation date as far
> >>>back as 1993-4 with the
> >>>KMUG (Kansai Mac Users Group) list.  At the end of the
> >>>day moderation was as
> >>>detrimental to the list as non-moderation.
> >>>
> >>>One of the rationales behind list moderation is
> >>>sustenance of an online
> >>>community.  Implicit in this argument is the idea that
> >>>constant disruption
> >>>and flame war is likely to push certain members to
> >>>leave the community thus
> >>>eroding the quality of membership and content of
> >>>postings.
> >>>
> >>>The bottom line for me is the 'age' of a list.  That
> >>>is, an old established
> >>>list with strong membership and displaying high
> >>>quality posting may not be
> >>>susceptible to the eroding effects of flame and
> >>>disruption.  It seems to me
> >>>that this list's quality FAR exceed the once in a
> >>>while virulent posting of
> >>>some listeras. ;)
> >>>
> >>>Some flames evolve into rich discussion and edifying
> >>>exchanges.  Nina's
> >>>abhorrent posting is a good case in point.  I learned
> >>>as a result of an
> >>>initial nonsensical posting - (thank you to
> >>>Konstantin, Huck, and all
> >>>others)
> >>>
> >>>A censored list may strip the list of its richness of
> >>>expression.  Granted
> >>>we should all try to display certain level of
> >>>civility.   However, I must
> >>>say that the entertainment value of some postings
> >>>bring a smile to my face.
> >>>That alone makes it all worthwhile.
> >>>
> >>>Cheers,
> >>>Amaury
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
> >>>[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> >>>m i l e s
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:11 PM
> >>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
> >>>Subject: [Tango-L] A Cautionary Phrase (was:
> >>>Acrimoniousness)
> >>>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>After reading everyones responses my post about
> >>>Acrimoniousness...
> >>>
> >>>"You can tell a fool he's doing a foolish thing, it
> >>>may not change
> >>>anything, but at least the truth is where it needs to
> >>>be". - Kosh,
> >>>Vorlon Ambassador, Babylon 5.
> >>>
> >>>Oh and one thing about list moderation, the list
> >>>moderator in my
> >>>estimation in question isn't doing a good job of list
> >>>moderation if
> >>>they're acting like that.  A good list moderator,
> >>>shepherds the
> >>>conversation and doesn't stifle it!  That's a rare
> >>>skill and not
> >>>everyone is cut out for it, so its wise when starting
> >>>a list to pick
> >>>someone ELSE other than yourself to moderate a list.
> >>>
> >>>Lastly, I find it interesting that you folks took the
> >>>better portion
> >>>of my note and discarded it in favor of focusing on
> >>>the one thing
> >>>that was an after thought, the list moderation.  As a
> >>>friend of mine
> >>>once said, "People are gonna do what they're gonna do,
> >>>and you can't
> >>>change that.  But you can influence them by how you
> >>>carry yourself."
> >>>
> >>>M i l e s.
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Tango-L mailing list
> >>>Tango-L at mit.edu
> >>>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_________________________________________________________________ 
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> >>
> >>
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> >
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>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw PLC
>Ann Arbor MI USA
>734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
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