[Tango-L] How to Tango

[Floyd Baker]

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:07:21 -0800, you wrote:

>Igor: Ok, that  sounds constructive.

<snip>

>Igor: I'll try, but I am just quickly answering your questions, it is by no
>means established and complete.

>What you might call "heavy lead" ( in relation to good dancers ) 

I was never referring to 'good dancers'.

>is a combination of lead, extra energy transfer, and a play with forces between
>bodies in the couple.

I understand that...  I saw it last, in person, here in Buffalo, when
Daniel Trenner and Anne Sophie Ville were dancing.  

>Little clarification:
>1. Lead is never "Heavy". It is a skillful combination of body positioning,
>rotations, small forces, supporting moves, and most important, ( for a
>leader ) receiving constant feedback from the follower. It is a mean of
>communication. It can not be heavy, because otherwise it can be confused
>with :

It seems the difference came from my term...  In what I called 'heavy
lead'..   For what I'm talking about, what else is it.   'Strong' has
been mentioned and that is a more positive connotation, eh?   I have
always referred to 'heavy' lead in a negative sense.  I have defined
this term which I actually thought was my own term..,  in a negative
way.   I don't understand the problem with knowing it's wrong to do..,
as described..,  for the reasons given...

I'm not disagreeing with what good dancers do.

>2. "Extra energy transfer". During a lady's move she can choose to make it
>without energy and with energy. If she chooses to do it with energy ( and I
>can provoke it), I can add some supporting energy to her move, which makes
>it more powerful and interesting. This energy flow itself can have a "shape"
>in time and therefore be a dancing figure.

For now I'll say that I understand the concept and accept it, as done
by advanced dancers.   Certainly not nearly as well by me as you..,
but maybe we should start all over with what we're talking about.

I made a claim that some new and learning followers stop learning,
when they find that some leaders push them to where they want them to
be..  So the followers stop trying to learn to follow and expect to be
shoved into position.  

Should I not call pushing and shoving the lady,  'heavy leading'..,
when she doesn't want to move on her own?   That's all I'm asking
about... 

>She does not have "to choose going with energy" to experience it. In any
>way, a man can provide energy for her "carring her" in the move. Like a
>baby. She flies! She makes movements easier than she would do it on her own!
>Shouldn't it be pleasant!? It is still "extra energy transfer", and at the
>same time lead too in the sense the lead can be applied at any moment during
>this move. It can be done moving in any direction: backward, side, side in
>rotation, and forward too.

You are talking about very good followers who are actually doing their
part, their own moves and putting themselves into the dance..   I'm
way back at the other end of the scale you know?   Where the leader
pushes a follower around because she doesn't know how to, or even
wants to, bother following a lead by herself.   The discussion is
going way to far afield...

>3. Play with energy and forces is when me or her do something unexpected
>with it. For example, I can rotate her at the end of an energetic move, or
>rotate her more than she expects. There are many many dozens of ways of
>play. Most simple of which is rotation of the lady in ochos by a man instead
>of her doing it herself. It is very different, and can be combined with her
>own rotation to produce synergetic effect so that we end up in performing a
>figure noone of us planned upfront. Or produce pulsating energy flow back
>and forth between us. All that is very interesting in dance.
 
I understand this fine...

>You probably think about beginners, who for some reason believe that the
>lead is pushing and pulling.   That is of course wrong. All of this people, as
>it seems to me, have no sense of partner, they push and pull at the wrong
>moment, when she does not finish her little move. They do not lead. They
>compromise the method of dancing with power, but they are very beginners and
>you should not compare them and advanced dancers, who are mastering the way
>of dance with energy.

Now you're with me...  But I certainly never did compare these new
dancers, and I might include 'ballroom method' instructors, with
advanced A/Tango dancers.    My 'How To' is mostly for newbies and to
correct bad habits of those who have been around but gotten bad
instruction...  It simply tells followers not to let the leader push
them around.   To move under their own power, direction, and balance,
depending on the 'very subtle' leads they receive.   That one can in
fact dance fairly well without touching at all...  So!   NO pushing
allowed...  Nothing meant more than that, at the beginner level... 

If the term 'heavy lead' is used nicely on another experience level, I
can change it in the 'How To'.   But I expect still that it is the
term 'strong lead' that is used up there...    

>With many partners, I practiced something which can be called pushing. Yes,
>it is real pushing, sometimes slow, week, sometimes sharp and fast. I do it
>mostly with my body, sometimes with hands. But that is the play to produce
>many effects. My partners love it. And I regret that many dancers still do
>not know what it is. And it looks like someone, like Floyd, thinks it is
>wrong.

That remains to be seen.    We've been talking apples and oranges for
the most part.

>Some more about lead. It is possible to utilize very heavy forces for lead
>too. It is when a lady artificially makes her resistance high. She can
>resist me in many ways, and yes, I do have to apply force to start movement.
>Then at one moment she can go like a spring. All that done skillfully is
>very very interesting and pleasant... But is it still can not be called
>"heavey lead". It is not heavy.

I don't call it 'heavy lead'...  I call *heavy* lead, 'heavy lead'...

>I can not continue about it. There is so much about it. Some time later, I
>may summarize my experience.

I'll offer you space on my website pages if you do  Igor...   Under
'Advanced' teachings...  :-)      

But of course I do know you have your own site too...

>Some more about it.   It looks to me that there are schools who are plainly
>afraid to apply even a smallest pressure to a lead contact. What can I
>say... They loose so much !
>=========================================================================
>
>Floyd: Tell me if I'm wrong but I
>expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
>enclosed  in it,  to the point she 'must' come with you?   Fine by me
>you know?   It's the 'frame',  and both can Tango.
>
>Igor: No. May be this is a "frame" but this is not the way to lead. This is
>"ballroom" frame explained to beginners. And what do you mean "must go with
>you" !? It is the "heavy lead" in the worst sense !!!

My 'must' was in quotes.    But it was referring to a good follower
who will know that she should, will not consider other directions to
go in, and will be doing it willingly...   Not a heavy lead at all...
Just 'close embrace' kind of 'must'.   


>Tango frame, at least in my understanding ( and not only ), is not an
>enclosure. No way !!! The partner is never "framed of freedom". It is at
>least(!) 2 points of contact. No matter where. At this points partners press
>against each other and variations of this pressure produced clear signal.
>This is the initial lead. Why two points? To lead rotations simpler. There
>could be many more of these points.
>
>Movement of these points is understood as a lead by many teachers, but this
>is not the best way to do it.
>Movement can be used, but not required for communication. Communication can
>be done without any movement at all. That is what I call "Full Contact" lead
>and follow. That allows dancing practically without moves. That allows
>dancing in the most confined places.
>
>Tango can be danced with just 2 pairs of fingers touched ( again, no need
>for any enclosure ), but this way it is impossible to transmit extra energy
>( see above ). Therefore we use more convenient embrace.

I have written about this too...  Dancing without touching at all in
fact.

>So here, my point of view is in opposite to yours.

I don't see anything you have said as being opposite to mine...

>Note. Dancing with beginners is very different than dancing with advanced
>ladies.  I do "frame them from freedom".  Leading is not the only way to show
>what should happen, but restricting from what should not happen. Effectively
>blocking beginners from wrong moves is one of the skills a leader can
>master.

>=======================================================================
>Floyd:
>
>...Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
>So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
>'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me..   That it's not as
>I have described it.   I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
>lady around.".
>
>Igor: .. that is ok name, as soon you refer to beginners.   But I have met
>very few beginners like that.   I have met several hard-core-mustang-rides who
>still the way they are.  Who can convince them!  They do not take classes any
>more. I think all teachers immediately would point out to this mistake. ( It
>is still not a good name. Even a horse is horsed gentle.  I do not know what
>word to use. )

Grin...    You seem to me to have come into Tango in an already
advanced area.., where instructors are most likely way above beyond it
too.   Everyone should be so lucky.  


>But in your writing you seem like you are against dancing with power at all.
>That what bothers me.

Not at all...  Not at all...

>(PS after everything is written. Who about "Mustang-Tamer" ? )
>
>======================================================================
>Floyd:
>As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
>methods and I don't accept them any more.   That would be like not
>caring about another's well being.   I have had to go through bad
>teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me.  It
>started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since.    It
>just took awhile to understand how bad it was.  That people take years
>of going around through the back door of learning.   But worse, still
>ending up thinking it was the only way to go?    I don't agree with
>that at all.
>
>Igor:
>Still your rude rejection anything "ballroom" does not serve you well.
>Haven't you noticed? The best new people for tango are those who have
>ballroom experience. And other dancing, of course. Then go sportsmen and
>sportswomen, musicians..

I would say it is because anyone interested in dancing would be apt to
go into ballroom immediately...  Ergo, they are coming from ballroom
when they learned to drop it in favor of Tango...  Which is what
happens a lot now days, you know?   But you can't give ballroom the
credit for them being good at Tango...   They may in fact have been
even better if they came straight into Tango...   

>=========================================================================
>
>Igor: - Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom
>partner, so
>>that she said "Wow!" ?
>
>Floyd: Do they?     :-)
>
>Igor: Yes they do ! Find one and dance with her. And make her say "Wow!".
>When you will be able to do it, 
>you will have some background to judge about "ballroom" dancers.
>Sorry, quite a rude answer.

Not a problem... Mine was too...

>==========================================================================
>Igor: - Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?
>
>Floyd: My version?    Yes.   I'm afraid so.
>But I try not to now.    The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.
>
>Igor: Hm.. What is so wrong about it then? It is useful.. Are you sure it
>was "heavy lead" in my sense, not yours?

Yes... It was in my sense of the term'...  I was 'helping' the student
in front of  others.   Just to keep her from feeling she was looking
dumb you know?  ??   But now I  try to not put them up there in front
of others as quickly as I have in the past..  

>========================================================================
>Igor - Are you able to dance fast and powerful?
>
>Floyd: I'm happy with my speed and power areas,  but I have a long way to go
>before I'm a performer.   Although I have done demo's to large
>audiences...
>
>Igor:  Oh, it has nothing to do with performance. You should feel the power
>inside! 
>Going to extreme speed and you enjoying how quickly you with your partner
>react. Adrenaline !!!
>And sometimes great forces.

I love adrenaline.  :-)  

>( Note. Looking at many milonga dancers I have noticed they tend to dance
>milonga fast. But they do it with large steps and outcome is pretty ugly.
>They loose connection all the time. Unable to hold it. Sorry. Just a
>straightforward opinion. They do look like pushing and pulling each other
>like dolls. This is wrong. To master speed and power, first one should go to
>slow and small.
>This is difficult, but slow and very small steps milonga will give a key how
>to make it large and fast.
>This is the way I know ).

I think I'll stick to slow and small for a long time to come...  Three
in a row knocks me out now.   Ha!  


>=======================================================================
>
>Floyd: Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
>are not a prerequisite  to teaching beginners to Tango.
>
>Igor: May be not a prerequisite. Though, I have met great teachers who teach
>"fast and powerful" right away.
>But you should not mark "fast and powerful" as the wrong dancing of
>experienced couples.

Never...  It has to be one of their signatures in fact..  

>=======================================================================
>
>Floyd: ...I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the
>last 5-6 months since that interest really began.  I'm working on rotation.
>It's happening, but not smoothly as yet.
>
>Igor: Ah, good ! To make the rotation smoother, I try to find that
>centrifugal force, and try to keep it constant.  It means the rotation is
>smooth. After it is mastered,  I go to acceleration in rotation, and then..
>sudden stop.  Whew... !
>
>But I do not say this is the only one way to do it. As soon as it feels
>nice, it is nice.

I'll work on that.  Thanks for the tip.    My interest was sparked by
watching Diego DiFalco and Carolina Zokalski.  Who would you suggest
in additon to them?   They will be in Ithaca for a workshop soon btw.
I'll be there....        
  
>=====================================================================
>Floyd: Those who cannot step nicely...?  All the time.
>
>Igor: Oh, I hope you have taught them how to keep rhythm...
>Tango helps. It is forgiving. We can slowdown, or even stop at any time.
>This dance is for everyone !
>Even for those who like dancing fast and powerful.
>
>PS. And the best way to civilize "mustang-tamers" is to explain them that
>they still can use what they like, but done correctly. But that is just my
>speculation. It might not work.

I'm trying another approach...  That the followers read what I am
writing and learn it isn't the real way to go...   Then to perhaps
tell the Mustang Tamers directly not to do it..  <g>  



>=====================================================================
>>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>>dancers of "other" schools than yours?
>
>Of course...   I have written about it.
>
>Igor: Then you should not judge them so negatively.
>You can say, "oh, they do not dance authentic tango", or "they are too old
>fashioned - this is all boring stuff". That is a common skirmish between us.
>
>But saying "he is too fast", and "he uses too much energy", and "he can lead
>any beginner to "Wow" ( almost any ),therefore he can not be count as
>experienced dancer. Experienced dancers dance only with one partner a night
>( if they are lucky to get one ;)) )", and "ridiculous! He even like dancing
>with ballroom dancers !!!" I guess is not fair.

Well, that's not what I wrote..  The problem I see is that every
community seems to learn a certain number of patterns and become used
to doing them.. This is caused by the teachers teaching those
patterns.   And not teaching how to follow the lead..  So one might
follow any pattern... 

The patterns should be left to the leader alone...  

>=====================================================================
>Igor:
>>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?
>Igor: I do, if they dance..

Yes...  There are some who do.   :-)  

>====================================================================
>Floyd:
>You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
>what is happening when you are using it.  At least tell me if you
>disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
>should I call my version if it is not the correct term.   That might
>actually be the answer, eh?   To just call it 'horsing' the partner
>around?
>
>Igor: See more above. About naming. Hm... can not say it several words. I
>believe it should not be mentioned at all. There is nothing to compare with.
>Just people who do not know what is the lead, and what is the energy
>transfer, and what is listening to a partner, and what is to do everything
>in perfect time, with rhythm. There are certain ways to lead ( I know 3 ).
>These are all complex processes.

Forcing does exist for sure.  

As confirmed by others in this thread who understood what I was
talking about.   

The usual scenario is this.  The instructor said if she does not move
correctly you give her a heavier lead.   That is not what you think he
might have meant,  Igor...  Because the student is brand new and this
instructor doesn't know a lead from a tow truck.   He just switches to
the tow truck method.   And of course he then thinks he's a great
instructor because the folllower is now in the right place...   :-)  

Now I'm not specifically downing any Buffalo instructors, ok?    Just
the bad ones wherever they might be.   There are a few of them out
there.     I would like followers to know this is not good for them
and to not allow it...

>I have heard a term "steering the wheel", but it might refer to something
>different.

>There is a term "week lead", may be you can use "overlead" ? I would use
>"wrong lead". Because, any term besides "overlead", and "wrong lead" may be
>associated with something useful, and therefore compromise that useful
>thing. Power of words is incredible, we should use them very carefully.


Hmm..  Are you ok with 'heavy' being the negative (my description),
and 'strong' being positive (your description)?    With explanation? I
can make a big point of this distinction.    

And when you 'summarize' I will link directly to it too... :-)


>=====================================================================
>Floyd:
>My problem is ...   Speaking the same [with others] 'language'.
>Understanding what others actually think in detail.
>Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity,  you know?
>
>Igor. That is everyone's problem. That one of the reasons we have Tango-L.
>That is extremely useful for us to find the common language, eliminate
>misunderstandings, and that is great that we have the Internet to help us.

Totally agree...   Nice talking this stuff out too...   


Floyd...

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>If you are interested, I have some more written about it on my site:
>www.virtuar.com/tango/. You will find it.
>Igor.




     Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango 
      * * * * * www.buffalotango.com  * * * * *