[Tango-L] How to Tango

[Igor Polk]

Igor: Ok, that  sounds constructive.

>"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
>be pushed and leaders who push.  They go together..  They enjoy each
>other for their own personal  satisfaction.   But that way it only
>takes one to tango."

Floyd: If my term is wrong and has nothing to do with 'this kind of
dancing',
please explain your version of it then.

Igor: I'll try, but I am just quickly answering your questions, it is by no
means established and complete.
What you might call "heavy lead" ( in relation to good dancers ) is a
combination of lead, extra energy transfer, and a play with forces between
bodies in the couple.

Little clarification:
1. Lead is never "Heavy". It is a skillful combination of body positioning,
rotations, small forces, supporting moves, and most important, ( for a
leader ) receiving constant feedback from the follower. It is a mean of
communication. It can not be heavy, because otherwise it can be confused
with :

2. "Extra energy transfer". During a lady's move she can choose to make it
without energy and with energy. If she chooses to do it with energy ( and I
can provoke it), I can add some supporting energy to her move, which makes
it more powerful and interesting. This energy flow itself can have a "shape"
in time and therefore be a dancing figure.

She does not have "to choose going with energy" to experience it. In any
way, a man can provide energy for her "carring her" in the move. Like a
baby. She flies! She makes movements easier than she would do it on her own!
Shouldn't it be pleasant!? It is still "extra energy transfer", and at the
same time lead too in the sense the lead can be applied at any moment during
this move. It can be done moving in any direction: backward, side, side in
rotation, and forward too.


3. Play with energy and forces is when me or her do something unexpected
with it. For example, I can rotate her at the end of an energetic move, or
rotate her more than she expects. There are many many dozens of ways of
play. Most simple of which is rotation of the lady in ochos by a man instead
of her doing it herself. It is very different, and can be combined with her
own rotation to produce synergetic effect so that we end up in performing a
figure noone of us planned upfront. Or produce pulsating energy flow back
and forth between us. All that is very interesting in dance.

You probably think about beginners, who for some reason believe that the
lead is pushing and pulling. That is of course wrong. All of this people, as
it seems to me, have no sense of partner, they push and pull at the wrong
moment, when she does not finish her little move. They do not lead. They
compromise the method of dancing with power, but they are very beginners and
you should not compare them and advanced dancers, who are mastering the way
of dance with energy.

With many partners, I practiced something which can be called pushing. Yes,
it is real pushing, sometimes slow, week, sometimes sharp and fast. I do it
mostly with my body, sometimes with hands. But that is the play to produce
many effects. My partners love it. And I regret that many dancers still do
not know what it is. And it looks like someone, like Floyd, thinks it is
wrong.


Some more about lead. It is possible to utilize very heavy forces for lead
too. It is when a lady artificially makes her resistance high. She can
resist me in many ways, and yes, I do have to apply force to start movement.
Then at one moment she can go like a spring. All that done skillfully is
very very interesting and pleasant... But is it still can not be called
"heavey lead". It is not heavy.

I can not continue about it. There is so much about it. Some time later, I
may summarize my experience.

Some more about it. It looks to me that there are schools who are plainly
afraid to apply even a smallest pressure to a lead contact. What can I
say... They loose so much !
=========================================================================

Floyd: Tell me if I'm wrong but I
expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
enclosed  in it,  to the point she 'must' come with you?   Fine by me
you know?   It's the 'frame',  and both can Tango.

Igor: No. May be this is a "frame" but this is not the way to lead. This is
"ballroom" frame explained to beginners. And what do you mean "must go with
you" !? It is the "heavy lead" in the worst sense !!!

Tango frame, at least in my understanding ( and not only ), is not an
enclosure. No way !!! The partner is never "framed of freedom". It is at
least(!) 2 points of contact. No matter where. At this points partners press
against each other and variations of this pressure produced clear signal.
This is the initial lead. Why two points? To lead rotations simpler. There
could be many more of these points.

Movement of these points is understood as a lead by many teachers, but this
is not the best way to do it.
Movement can be used, but not required for communication. Communication can
be done without any movement at all. That is what I call "Full Contact" lead
and follow. That allows dancing practically without moves. That allows
dancing in the most confined places.

Tango can be danced with just 2 pairs of fingers touched ( again, no need
for any enclosure ), but this way it is impossible to transmit extra energy
( see above ). Therefore we use more convenient embrace.

So here, my point of view is in opposite to yours.

Note. Dancing with beginners is very different than dancing with advanced
ladies. I do "frame them from freedom". Leading is not the only way to show
what should happen, but restricting from what should not happen. Effectively
blocking beginners from wrong moves is one of the skills a leader can
master.

=======================================================================
Floyd:

...Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me..   That it's not as
I have described it.   I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
lady around.".

Igor: .. that is ok name, as soon you refer to beginners. But I have met
very few beginners like that. I have met several hard-core-mustang-rides who
still the way they are. Who can convince them! They do not take classes any
more. I think all teachers immediately would point out to this mistake. ( It
is still not a good name. Even a horse is horsed gentle. I do not know what
word to use. )

But in your writing you seem like you are against dancing with power at all.
That what bothers me.

(PS after everything is written. Who about "Mustang-Tamer" ? )

======================================================================
Floyd:
As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
methods and I don't accept them any more.   That would be like not
caring about another's well being.   I have had to go through bad
teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me.  It
started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since.    It
just took awhile to understand how bad it was.  That people take years
of going around through the back door of learning.   But worse, still
ending up thinking it was the only way to go?    I don't agree with
that at all.

Igor:
Still your rude rejection anything "ballroom" does not serve you well.
Haven't you noticed? The best new people for tango are those who have
ballroom experience. And other dancing, of course. Then go sportsmen and
sportswomen, musicians..


=========================================================================

Igor: - Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom
partner, so
>that she said "Wow!" ?

Floyd: Do they?     :-)

Igor: Yes they do ! Find one and dance with her. And make her say "Wow!".
When you will be able to do it,
you will have some background to judge about "ballroom" dancers.
Sorry, quite a rude answer.

==========================================================================
Igor: - Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?

Floyd: My version?    Yes.   I'm afraid so.
But I try not to now.    The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.

Igor: Hm.. What is so wrong about it then? It is useful.. Are you sure it
was "heavy lead" in my sense, not yours?

========================================================================
Igor - Are you able to dance fast and powerful?

Floyd: I'm happy with my speed and power areas,  but I have a long way to go
before I'm a performer.   Although I have done demo's to large
audiences...

Igor:  Oh, it has nothing to do with performance. You should feel the power
inside!
Going to extreme speed and you enjoying how quickly you with your partner
react. Adrenaline !!!
And sometimes great forces.

( Note. Looking at many milonga dancers I have noticed they tend to dance
milonga fast. But they do it with large steps and outcome is pretty ugly.
They loose connection all the time. Unable to hold it. Sorry. Just a
straightforward opinion. They do look like pushing and pulling each other
like dolls. This is wrong. To master speed and power, first one should go to
slow and small.
This is difficult, but slow and very small steps milonga will give a key how
to make it large and fast.
This is the way I know ).

=======================================================================

Floyd: Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
are not a prerequisite  to teaching beginners to Tango.

Igor: May be not a prerequisite. Though, I have met great teachers who teach
"fast and powerful" right away.
But you should not mark "fast and powerful" as the wrong dancing of
experienced couples.


=======================================================================

Floyd: ...I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the
last
5-6 months since that interest really began.  I'm working on rotation.
It's happening, but not smoothly as yet...

Igor: Ah, good ! To make the rotation smoother, I try to find that
centrifugal force, and try to keep it constant. It means the rotation is
smooth. After it is mastered, I go to acceleration in rotation, and then..
sudden stop. Whew... !

But I do not say this is the only one way to do it. As soon as it feels
nice, it is nice.


=====================================================================
Floyd: Those who cannot step nicely...?  All the time.

Igor: Oh, I hope you have taught them how to keep rhythm...
Tango helps. It is forgiving. We can slowdown, or even stop at any time.
This dance is for everyone !
Even for those who like dancing fast and powerful.

PS. And the best way to civilize "mustang-tamers" is to explain them that
they still can use what they like, but done correctly. But that is just my
speculation. It might not work.


=====================================================================
>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>dancers of "other" schools than yours?

Of course...   I have written about it.

Igor: Then you should not judge them so negatively.
You can say, "oh, they do not dance authentic tango", or "they are too old
fashioned - this is all boring stuff". That is a common skirmish between us.

But saying "he is too fast", and "he uses too much energy", and "he can lead
any beginner to "Wow" ( almost any ),therefore he can not be count as
experienced dancer. Experienced dancers dance only with one partner a night
( if they are lucky to get one ;)) )", and "ridiculous! He even like dancing
with ballroom dancers !!!" I guess is not fair.


=====================================================================
Igor:
>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?
Igor: I do, if they dance..

====================================================================
Floyd:
You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
what is happening when you are using it.  At least tell me if you
disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
should I call my version if it is not the correct term.   That might
actually be the answer, eh?   To just call it 'horsing' the partner
around?

Igor: See more above. About naming. Hm... can not say it several words. I
believe it should not be mentioned at all. There is nothing to compare with.
Just people who do not know what is the lead, and what is the energy
transfer, and what is listening to a partner, and what is to do everything
in perfect time, with rhythm. There are certain ways to lead ( I know 3 ).
These are all complex processes.

I have heard a term "steering the wheel", but it might refer to something
different.

There is a term "week lead", may be you can use "overlead" ? I would use
"wrong lead". Because, any term besides "overlead", and "wrong lead" may be
associated with something useful, and therefore compromise that useful
thing. Power of words is incredible, we should use them very carefully.




=====================================================================
Floyd:
My problem is ...   Speaking the same [with others] 'language'.
Understanding what others actually think in detail.
Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity,  you know?

Igor. That is everyone's problem. That one of the reasons we have Tango-L.
That is extremely useful for us to find the common language, eliminate
misunderstandings, and that is great that we have the Internet to help us.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you are interested, I have some more written about it on my site:
www.virtuar.com/tango/. You will find it.
Igor.