[Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross

[ceverett@ceverett.com]

Not having Gustavo's tape, I'm not in a position to answer directly.  So
I'm not going to argue about whether I or Gustavo am correct.  And
moreover, in tango there are usually many ways to skin the cat.  Some
meed the standard, some don't.  Anyway, Gustavo can only speak for his
dance.  It's a mighty fine dance he's got, though.

And, I can only speak for my dance:

However, in doing the count 5 of the 8CB and the front cross of a giro
in close embrace, the follower's hip motion is almost the same, the
difference being that with the giro the preceding step is 100% to the
side, and with the 8CB, the preceding step is 100% to the back.

I have not stated that there is a man's body turn to the left.  What I
have stated is that one twists the spine to the right ... I did forget
to state that the hips stay pointed in the same direction as the LOD. 
This displaces the woman to the right.

On step 4 of the 8CB in the normal system the way I do it in close,
three (of many) possibilities are:

A) exactly where it would be if just walking with the follower in front
of me.
B) one foots-width to the left of item A above
C) one foots-width to the right of item A above

Now remember, I've placed the follower about 4 inches to my right with a
bit of torso twist.  If I take option B, and untwist my torso, the
follower must cross to keep the frame ... the lead is so clear that even
beginners catch it.  If I take option C, and keep the torso twist, then
I completely take the option to cross away from the woman, the frame
won't permit it, and my left foot is in the way as well (best is if I
touch my left foot to her left foot, as yet a thirt "Don't cross!"
signal).  Option A lies in the territory between "Yes, do cross!" and
"No, don't cross", so one oughtn't do it.

I myself have seen no problems with followers having a hard time exiting
from the cross the way I lead it, nor do I think my teacher would stop
twisting my balls about it until such problems went away.  And, I would
expect her to be very familiar with the issues at hand ... she was
around when Chicho started working with Fabian and Gustavo.  One the
very first things she started working with me on was the lead to the
cross, and then she had me work on the double-time cross in cross foot
system coming out of half turns to the right and left a la Tete.

Christopher

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 03:03:56 -0400, "Keith" <keith at tangohk.com> said:
>  Christopher,
> 
>  I hate to repeat myself but the LF foot cross of the Giro to left
>  requires a woman's hip-turn to right. Your
>  description of step 5 of the 8CB has a woman's hip-turn to left. That's
>  not just a variation but a completely 
>  different step and destroys Gustavo's theory that the 8CB follows the
>  same code as a Giro to left.
> 
>  Gustavo says, quite forcefully, that your method of leading step 5 of
>  the 8CB is WRONG. I still have the video - he
>  slaps his fist into his palm and says your method will cause the couple
>  to collide and puts them in a position that is
>  very difficult to get out of.
> 
>  Now, I can understand your reticence at being at odds with Gustavo, but
>  just saying ... "There's no disagreement"
>  won't make it go away. You're going to have to do better than that.
> 
>  Keith, HK
> 
> 
>  On Sun Aug 26  6:15 , ceverett at ceverett.com sent:
> 
> >There's no disagreement.  Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a
> >variation on back, open, front, side.
> >
> >Christopher
> >
> >On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" keith at tangohk.com> said:
> >>  Dear All,
> >> 
> >>  Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject.
> >> 
> >>  Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavo’s theory that the first 5
> >>  steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the
> >>  code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the
> >>  lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo 
> >>  teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the
> >>  left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro.
> >> 
> >>  But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is
> >>  best led by a body turn to the left. 
> >> 
> >>  Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think,
> >>  like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are
> >>  wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is
> >>  not set in stone?
> >> 
> >> Keith, HK
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier"  sent:
> >> 
> >> >
> >> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not 
> >> >interfere at all with the dance.   All you need to do is at step # 4 of the 
> >> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest 
> >> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody 
> >> >before).
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >There are many ways to dance tango.
> >> >
> >> >Best regards, Sergio
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Christopher writes on 24 August:
> >> 
> >> If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the 
> >> right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
> >> the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her 
> >> to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in 
> >> the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her 
> >> right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with 
> >> her left leg, she will cross in back a bit. 
> >> 
> >> If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross, 
> >> then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points 
> >> directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in 
> >> the frame.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
>