[Tango-L] Women leading IV
ramiro garcia
ramiro9 at yahoo.com
Wed May 31 18:58:24 EDT 2006
Jake,
You have brought up a couple of points I wish to address.
> scoreboard. If I have cried out in error, you've got my text,
> and can very well show me where I'm wrong, first, and wallow
> in name-calling afterwards.
Point #1 - Name-calling.
a) Thirdly, .... I don't understand how you can even maintain
the
pretense of presiding over an open discussion.
b) Like many a pedant before you, ...
c) you arrange the available evidence (or the portion of it you
find
attractive) so that it seems to support your prefabricated
conclusion,
d) ... this walking caricature you insist on equating with real
life.
e) To your great discredit, you don't do this enough...
f) In the end, it's just patronizing.
g) By the time we're done sorting out tango propaganda from
tango history,
h) ...all these useless blanket statements
To sum up, you have called Sergio:
a) pretense
b) pedant
c) prefabricate conclusions
d) equate a caricature w. real life
e) discredit
f) patronizing
g) propagandist
h) useless blanket statements
> That's how a gentleman might do it, anyway.
Point two concerns gentlemanly behavior.
Do you think your post was gentlemanly?
Finally, as a minor clarification. Ed's reply seems intemperate,
if not wholly inappropriate. I believe I can help you parse it,
and better understand where he is coming from.
Suppose you were face-to-face with Sergio, or Ed. Would you have
phrased your remarks the same way, or would you, perhaps, found
a different means of expressing the same ideas? This putative
difference is they key point.
IMHO, the gentlemanly thing is if you wouldn't say it to
someone's face, don't say it in an email list.
Please note that I have made absolutely no comment on the
substance of your remarks, and whether I agree, disagree, think
they're true, or not true. I am commenting solely on your method
of delivery in this public forum.
-------------ob on-topic post--------------
I occasionally have women lead in order to feel what
a man will need from them in order to lead.
When they feel what it's like to try to get someone who is
walking on their heels, to walk backwards, their understanding
often takes a quantum leap forward.
-------------end on-topic post--------------
ramiro
--- "TangoDC.com" <spatz at tangoDC.com> wrote:
> Dear Ed,
>
> The trouble with democracy is that anyone who can piece
> together an
> interpretation believes themselves entitled to being correct.
> ...
> scoreboard. If I have cried out in error, you've got my text,
> and can
> very well show me where I'm wrong, first, and wallow in
> name-calling
> afterwards. That's how a gentleman might do it, anyway.
> In the meantime, let me sincerely apologize for having ruined
> all
> discourse on this list. I didn't realize that it was possible
> for one
> man to do so by raising things from the level of travel
> writing to
> something that can sustain criticism, but evidently it was. I
> shall hang
> my head all the way to my laurels.
>
> Jake Spatz
> DC
>
>
> Ed Loomis wrote:
> > Jake,
> > What a crass and vulgar post you have inflicted on us.
> Hiding behind Oscar
> > Wilde to imply that Sergio is somehow stupid because you
> disagree with him does
> > not excuse you. Your post is an example of the childishly
> self indulgent ranting
> > that has ruined this list as a forum for discussing tango.
> Sergio did nothing to
> > deserve this and neither did any of the rest of us. Shame on
> you.
> > Ed
> >
> > On Wed, 31 May 2006 14:58:55 -0400, "TangoDC.com"
> <spatz at tangoDC.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Sergio,
> >>
> >> First off, you're issuing forth an idealized, Star Trek
> version of
> >> gender roles (minus Captain Kirk, I might add), and asking
> us to believe
> >> that this pipe-dream of equality is not only behind the
> brothel-born
> >> tango, but a uniquely Argentine phenomenon, which the rest
> of the
> >> cement-headed world has never even heard of.
> >>
> >> Secondly, you haven't done Squat to describe what those
> roles actually
> >> are, besides assigning (tautologically) the man's role to
> the man, and
> >> the woman's role to the woman. You give us a threadbare
> generalization,
> >> but halt on the doorstep of what it truly is: mere
> stereotype, an
> >> old-fashioned melodrama which the huddled masses take
> delight in
> >> swallowing, one three-minute dose at a time. It is and has
> always been
> >> as shallow as a soap opera, which is exactly what makes it
> (a) a fantasy
> >> largely *at odds* with the reality of gender relations, and
> (b) possible
> >> for an intelligent person to enjoy *as a charade.* If the
> tango has an
> >> essence of sorrow, the sorrow is that real life's neither
> that easy nor
> >> that beautiful.
> >>
> >> Thirdly, you seem to have reached your conclusion about the
> place a
> >> leading woman has in the tango world Well Before posing the
> question to
> >> anyone here, so I don't understand how you can even
> maintain the
> >> pretense of presiding over an open discussion. Like many a
> pedant before
> >> you, you arrange the available evidence (or the portion of
> it you find
> >> attractive) so that it seems to support your prefabricated
> conclusion,
> >> sweep the rest under the carpet, and voila-- Thou Art the
> Very
> >> Mouthpiece of The Trumpet of the Tango. Meanwhile, voices
> dissenting
> >>
> > >from yours get the spit-valve concession of being perfectly
> acceptable
> >
> >> if they squeak, but no longer "Argentine," because they
> depart from this
> >> walking caricature you insist on equating with real life.
> >>
> >> To your credit, you reverse your statements in light of
> contrary
> >> evidence, as you did when reminded of the charming story,
> "Rudolpho Goes
> >> to the Wrong Neighborhood," which paints Buenos Aires in a
> >> less-than-heavenly light. The details of that little
> expose' showed me a
> >> city that has gutters as well as statues, and I continue to
> appreciate
> >> it for the way it smacks of first-hand experience. To your
> great
> >> discredit, you don't do this enough, either because you
> fear
> >> misinterpretation, or because you feel some necessity to
> promote your
> >> own views. In the end, it's just patronizing.
> >>
> >> The simple fact is that there is a wide variety of opinion
> as to the
> >> woman's role in tango, and that a lot of this variety has
> come from
> >> people posting IN Buenos Aires. They've spoken for
> themselves, and your
> >> simplistic summaries will not smother them out. Neither,
> for that
> >> matter, will appeals to Buenos Aires as the tabernacle of
> authenticity.
> >> By the time we're done sorting out tango propaganda from
> tango history,
> >> we've still got the great variety of how people actually
> dance, and the
> >> everlasting plurality of styles-- plus the innovative
> dancers known as
> >> artists, who set fire to all these useless blanket
> statements and modify
> >> tradition by the presence of their own blazing originality.
> >>
> >> Jake Spatz
> >> Washington, DC
> >>
> >> "It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
> >> -- Oscar Wilde
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> >>
> >>> When I mentioned the way women and men are in Argentina
> (described as
> >>> platitude by Jake and as something existent all over the
> world by
> >>> Ilene, and as not true by Jak ) I was giving and ideal
> reflection of
> >>> the concept that exists in Argentine society of what a man
> and a woman
> >>> should be.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Tango-L at mit.edu
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> >
> >
> >
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ramiro garcia
ramiro9 at yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
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