[Tango-L] Women leading IV

Wed May 31 16:51:41 EDT 2006

Dear Ed,

The trouble with democracy is that anyone who can piece together an 
interpretation believes themselves entitled to being correct. If you 
believe Oscar Wilde said Sergio is stupid, you can cast about for votes. 
I believe he said: "It is *dangerous* to be sincere unless you are also 
stupid." He also said: "An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of 
being called an idea at all." And I do believe the epigram applies 
pretty well to my post, as a self-admonishing afterthought, regardless 
of whose forehead You wish to stick it on.

Now, if you believe my tone is either crass or vulgar, that's perfectly 
fine with me. I've been called much worse for engaging a debate head-on, 
and shouting "Foul" when someone tries to sneak a few points on the 
scoreboard. If I have cried out in error, you've got my text, and can 
very well show me where I'm wrong, first, and wallow in name-calling 
afterwards. That's how a gentleman might do it, anyway.

In the meantime, let me sincerely apologize for having ruined all 
discourse on this list. I didn't realize that it was possible for one 
man to do so by raising things from the level of travel writing to 
something that can sustain criticism, but evidently it was. I shall hang 
my head all the way to my laurels.

Jake Spatz
DC

Ed Loomis wrote:
> Jake,
>      What a crass and vulgar post you have inflicted on us. Hiding behind Oscar
> Wilde to imply that Sergio is somehow stupid because you disagree with him does
> not excuse you. Your post is an example of the childishly self indulgent ranting
> that has ruined this list as a forum for discussing tango. Sergio did nothing to
> deserve this and neither did any of the rest of us. Shame on you. 
> Ed
>
> On Wed, 31 May 2006 14:58:55 -0400, "TangoDC.com" <spatz at tangoDC.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Sergio,
>>
>> First off, you're issuing forth an idealized, Star Trek version of 
>> gender roles (minus Captain Kirk, I might add), and asking us to believe 
>> that this pipe-dream of equality is not only behind the brothel-born 
>> tango, but a uniquely Argentine phenomenon, which the rest of the 
>> cement-headed world has never even heard of.
>>
>> Secondly, you haven't done Squat to describe what those roles actually 
>> are, besides assigning (tautologically) the man's role to the man, and 
>> the woman's role to the woman. You give us a threadbare generalization, 
>> but halt on the doorstep of what it truly is: mere stereotype, an 
>> old-fashioned melodrama which the huddled masses take delight in 
>> swallowing, one three-minute dose at a time. It is and has always been 
>> as shallow as a soap opera, which is exactly what makes it (a) a fantasy 
>> largely *at odds* with the reality of gender relations, and (b) possible 
>> for an intelligent person to enjoy *as a charade.* If the tango has an 
>> essence of sorrow, the sorrow is that real life's neither that easy nor 
>> that beautiful.
>>
>> Thirdly, you seem to have reached your conclusion about the place a 
>> leading woman has in the tango world Well Before posing the question to 
>> anyone here, so I don't understand how you can even maintain the 
>> pretense of presiding over an open discussion. Like many a pedant before 
>> you, you arrange the available evidence (or the portion of it you find 
>> attractive) so that it seems to support your prefabricated conclusion, 
>> sweep the rest under the carpet, and voila-- Thou Art the Very 
>> Mouthpiece of The Trumpet of the Tango. Meanwhile, voices dissenting 
>>     
> >from yours get the spit-valve concession of being perfectly acceptable 
>   
>> if they squeak, but no longer "Argentine," because they depart from this 
>> walking caricature you insist on equating with real life.
>>
>> To your credit, you reverse your statements in light of contrary 
>> evidence, as you did when reminded of the charming story, "Rudolpho Goes 
>> to the Wrong Neighborhood," which paints Buenos Aires in a 
>> less-than-heavenly light. The details of that little expose' showed me a 
>> city that has gutters as well as statues, and I continue to appreciate 
>> it for the way it smacks of first-hand experience. To your great 
>> discredit, you don't do this enough, either because you fear 
>> misinterpretation, or because you feel some necessity to promote your 
>> own views. In the end, it's just patronizing.
>>
>> The simple fact is that there is a wide variety of opinion as to the 
>> woman's role in tango, and that a lot of this variety has come from 
>> people posting IN Buenos Aires. They've spoken for themselves, and your 
>> simplistic summaries will not smother them out. Neither, for that 
>> matter, will appeals to Buenos Aires as the tabernacle of authenticity. 
>> By the time we're done sorting out tango propaganda from tango history, 
>> we've still got the great variety of how people actually dance, and the 
>> everlasting plurality of styles-- plus the innovative dancers known as 
>> artists, who set fire to all these useless blanket statements and modify 
>> tradition by the presence of their own blazing originality.
>>
>> Jake Spatz
>> Washington, DC
>>
>> "It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
>> -- Oscar Wilde
>>
>>
>>
>> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>>     
>>> When I mentioned the way women and men are in Argentina (described as 
>>> platitude by Jake and as something existent all over the world by 
>>> Ilene, and as not true by Jak ) I was giving  and ideal reflection of 
>>> the concept that exists in Argentine society of what a man and a woman 
>>> should be.
>>>       
>
>
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