[mosh-devel] Termius + Mosh
Roman Kudiyarov
roman at termius.com
Thu Jul 14 21:31:43 EDT 2022
Hi Keith,
Sorry about it. We use Mosh as a protocol name. We will adjust the copy so it will be more clear.
Could you share with me examples of support requests? As we might help with them.
Btw, would you be willing to put Termius on your website as the app that supports Mosh across all platforms(Mac, Win, Linux, iOS, and Android)?
Regards,
Roman Kudiyarov
CEO - termius.com ( http://termius.com )
On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 4:40 AM, Keith Winstein < keithw at cs.stanford.edu > wrote:
>
> Hello Roman,
>
>
> In 2017 in this thread, we requested, and you agreed, that your company
> would stop using "Mosh" to refer to Termius, and use a phrase like
> "Mosh-compatible" if you want to explain its ability to interoperate with
> mosh-server. (You have told us that Termius is a clean-room implementation
> unrelated to the Mosh codebase.) Despite this, you are still using "Mosh"
> in your marketing ( https:/ / www. termius. com/ ( https://www.termius.com/
> ) ) and perhaps in your product.
>
>
> This is continuing to confuse your users, resulting in a continuing
> support burden on us.
>
>
>
> Stop using "Mosh." It is a registered trademark referring to our software.
> Please let us know when this is done.
>
>
>
> -Keith
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:12 PM Roman Kudiyarov < roman@ termius. com (
> roman at termius.com ) > wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 August 2017 at 11:51:44 AM, Keith Winstein ( keithw@ cs. stanford. edu
>> ( keithw at cs.stanford.edu ) ) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Roman,
>>>
>>>
>>> In early May, we had this exchange (also below in this thread). I wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> (3) We've had bad experiences in the past with people (especially iSSH on
>>>> iOS) attempting to implement the Mosh protocol, but with imperfect
>>>> results, and users blaming Mosh for the problems. As with these past
>>>> cases, please don't refer to your implementation as "Mosh." Please refer
>>>> to it as "Termius mosh-compatible mode," with your own name first and
>>>> "mosh-compatible" instead of "Mosh".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You replied:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sure, no problem. We will make sure that it’s mentioned as
>>>> "mosh-compatible”.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We expect your company to honor this agreement -- do you plan to do so?
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm happy to explain our position further, and maybe you can understand
>>> why this is important to us. Mosh is a piece of software, like OpenSSH or
>>> Chrome. The protocol is called SSP (State Synchronization Protocol). You
>>> have told us that your program is not derived from Mosh, so we really
>>> don't want your company to call it Mosh. It's nothing personal -- but
>>> users are better served knowing the difference. We had a bad experience
>>> with somebody writing what they thought was a compatible implementation,
>>> and users getting confused and blaming us. So we don't want users to think
>>> they are running Mosh when they are running somebody else's application.
>>>
>>>
>>> We would be fine with you making statements like, "Termius is
>>> mosh-compatible" or "Termius has a mosh-compatible client" or even
>>> "Termius works with Mosh servers." They key thing here is that it's fine
>>> for Termius to claim mosh-compatibility, or to work *with* Mosh servers.
>>> It shouldn't claim to *be* or to include Mosh, because it doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, the text "SSH, Telnet, and Mosh in your pocket" and "... with SSH,
>>> Telnet, and Mosh." appears on your current website, https:/ / termius. com
>>> ( https://termius.com ). You can visit it yourself to see.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your answer. I see your point.Please don’t worry about the
>> support as we doing it ourselves. We have Mosh integrated into iOS and
>> Android with around 500,000 users combined. At the moment we can see quite
>> a big adoption of Mosh and some user requests in our Helpdesk system. At
>> the same time I can see none of those in this mailing list.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the idea/concept of Mosh is much bigger than it’s first
>> implementation under the GPL license. The GPL license makes it’s hard to
>> use in commercial apps so there will be more alternative and/or
>> closed-sourced implementations of the protocol which most of the users
>> call Mosh(not SSP).
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the solutions I can see is to name the current implementation Open
>> Mosh and keep the name mosh for the protocol.
>>
>>
>>
>> Another topic that I would like to raise is the protocol collaboration so
>> Termius can keep up with the new versions of the Mosh server and release
>> updates together with other platforms. That would definitely benefits the
>> users.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Keith
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Roman Kudiyarov < roman@ termius. com (
>>> roman at termius.com ) > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Keith,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could you please point me where “Mosh in your pocket” is. Honestly I can’t
>>>> find it. Btw, we’ve recently updated both of our websites so you might
>>>> refer to the old version.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In terms of the naming, there are two entities called MOSH:
>>>> 1. *Mosh protocol*. Termius is keen to participate in the discussion of
>>>> the protocol development. We have some thoughts on improving UX, e.g live
>>>> sessions for quick switch between devices.
>>>> 2. *Server and client implementation* of the protocol which is available on
>>>> GitHub.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In general, I find mosh-compatible pretty long and a little bit confusing
>>>> as it’s just a proprietary implementation of the mosh protocol, e.g. there
>>>> are many implementation of the SSH protocol. In addition, we can’t fit in
>>>> in Apple App Store description, e.g. Termius - SSH, Mosh-compatible and
>>>> Telnet client.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In terms of the support requests, we are subscribed to the mosh-devel
>>>> channel and happy with answering questions related to our implementation.
>>>> Btw, we have UserVoice integrated into our apps so we see most of the
>>>> requests right there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7 August 2017 at 7:48:41 PM, Keith Winstein ( keithw@ cs. stanford. edu
>>>> ( keithw at cs.stanford.edu ) ) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Roman,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As we requested earlier (below in this thread), could you please refer to
>>>>> your software as "mosh-compatible" instead of calling it a mosh client (or
>>>>> "Mosh in your pocket" as is on your website now)?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Keith
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Roman Kudiyarov < roman@ termius. com (
>>>>> roman at termius.com ) > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi there!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m glad to announce that Termius is a free mosh client for iOS and
>>>>>> Android. At the moment we are working on a version for Mac, Windows and
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if it is possible to put a link to termius website from mosh. org
>>>>>> ( http://mosh.org ) so end users have more options to pick up from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4 May 2017 at 4:46:24 PM, Keith Winstein ( keithw@ cs. stanford. edu (
>>>>>> keithw at cs.stanford.edu ) ) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Roman,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay, but if we can't see your code, we don't have a good way to start to
>>>>>>> know if your implementation is "fully compatible" with Mosh (it's not like
>>>>>>> we have a compatibility test suite for new binary implementations). If you
>>>>>>> didn't implement it with clean-room approach and were referencing the Mosh
>>>>>>> code as you wrote your own implementation, we can't tell you if your
>>>>>>> program is a derivative of Mosh or not. I do appreciate your kind words
>>>>>>> about Mosh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Keith
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Roman Kudiyarov < roman@ termius. com (
>>>>>>> roman at termius.com ) > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Keith!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2 May 2017 at 6:40:20 AM, Keith Winstein ( keithw@ cs. stanford. edu (
>>>>>>>> keithw at cs.stanford.edu ) ) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for letting us know!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (1) Could you please describe the process you used to develop a clean-room
>>>>>>>>> implementation of the Mosh protocol? Did you write up a protocol
>>>>>>>>> specification based on the Mosh source code, and then have somebody else
>>>>>>>>> implement the spec? If so, would you be willing to share the protocol
>>>>>>>>> spec?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Writing the spec would be ideal scenario but we just used the original
>>>>>>>> source code to learn the protocol and developed our own implementation
>>>>>>>> from scratch using different set of libraries and frameworks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (2) Is the source code of your implementation available?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are not sure about making it open-source as we are going to use as our
>>>>>>>> competitive advantage and we’ve invested quite a lot of time to get to
>>>>>>>> this point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (3) We've had bad experiences in the past with people (especially iSSH on
>>>>>>>>> iOS) attempting to implement the Mosh protocol, but with imperfect
>>>>>>>>> results, and users blaming Mosh for the problems. As with these past
>>>>>>>>> cases, please don't refer to your implementation as "Mosh." Please refer
>>>>>>>>> to it as "Termius mosh-compatible mode," with your own name first and
>>>>>>>>> "mosh-compatible" instead of "Mosh".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, no problem. We will make sure that it’s mentioned as
>>>>>>>> "mosh-compatible”.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Keith
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Roman Kudiyarov < roman@ termius. com (
>>>>>>>>> roman at termius.com ) > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’m a co-founder of Crystalnix. We work on Termius, cross-platform SSH
>>>>>>>>>> client (iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux and Chrome). Now we have around
>>>>>>>>>> 200K of monthly users! Our team aims to redesign command line UX from
>>>>>>>>>> scratch. Your team has done an amazing job with the mosh protocol which
>>>>>>>>>> was one of the most desired features that our users have been asking for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had to develop our own mosh client(completely different code-base) due
>>>>>>>>>> to the license restrictions. Anyway our code is fully compatible with the
>>>>>>>>>> current version of the mosh server. Very shortly we are launching beta for
>>>>>>>>>> Android and then will roll out to other platforms as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That means that this amazing technology(mosh) will be available for huge
>>>>>>>>>> user base for free!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to share those news and say thank you for the job you’ve
>>>>>>>>>> done!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Roman Kudiyarov
>>>>>>>>>> Termius Team
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> mosh-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> mosh-devel@ mit. edu ( mosh-devel at mit.edu )
>>>>>>>>>> http:/ / mailman. mit. edu/ mailman/ listinfo/ mosh-devel (
>>>>>>>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mosh-devel )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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