[Tango-L] Ocho queens-bad leads-good leads

[steve pastor]

"So if you guys have all these wonderful leaders,  why 
aren't the women picking up on this?  Why aren't they becoming more 
skilled?  Do the guys not want to dance with women who they think do
not meet their criteria to dance with them?  Are the guys not as good as 
they think they are? "

   
  Let's redefine this a bit and instead talk about men who are moer skilled than
  the women they are dancing with.
   
  Correct me if I am wrong, Deby, but you were already a Dancer when you 
  went to Buenos Aires. You went there specifcally (although not exclusively)
  to gain skill and knowledge. 
  Most people dance, but they aren't Dancers. Women, just like men, have to 
  want to become better. If they are satisfied with the dances they are getting,
  and aren't in it to become Dancers, they have no motivation to get better.
   
  Here's another aspect to this, I think. I have known several women who went
  to Buenos Aires, and came back with more presence, clearer steps and 
  axis. Time went by, and they lost it. Why? My theory is that they were getting
  plenty of dances, and became complacent. I refer to this as "community 
  leveling", and I guess it contadicts the "there are many good men" theory.
  Who will challenge these women to step up their game to a level that they 
  are capable of? Will they accept the challenge? Or are they happy to just
  be dancing?
  And, if the woman lacks basic skills, or hasn't accepted that she can do 
  things she hasn't learned in a lesson, a man risks "upsetting" her by
  however tactfully bringing up the subject. Besides, there are lots of guys
  who are happy to dance with them, and they don't complain, so where
  is the problem anyhow?
   
  "Why aren't they becoming more skilled?" Another answer to this is that
  many women become visibly upset if you lead something and they don't
  know what to do. After a try or two, it's best to leave it alone.
  And, you know, mostly, the women don't ask for input, or even want to 
  discuss things after they've had lessons or found an adequate number
  of partners they feel comfortable with. If something doesn't work, it is
  surely the fact that the man didn't lead it well. Right?
  But then, maybe that is because we don't have men who have been doing
  this for decades. 
  If you want to learn, you take lessons from a "teacher". Right?
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  

Deby Novitz <dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com> wrote:
  How can anyone ever attempt to resolve this thread on a computer list? 
Completely ridiculous. This is an example of what drives me crazy about 
this list. You can have both sides. In classes when I teach, there are 
women who go into the cross whether they are led or not. Why? Because 
some teacher told them they always have to cross in the 8 count basic on 
what is it step 5? No one ever taught the leaders how to lead a cross 
nor followers how to find the lead even if it is there. So she just 
always crosses. On the other side, there are leaders as mentioned above 
who do not know how to lead a cross, so the woman never crosses when the 
man wants her to because she doesn't know that is what he wants. When 
we ask students what do you want to learn? The men usually say "I need 
to learn to lead the cross." The women usually say "I have problems 
following." These are not beginning dancers.

I do not think it does anyone any good on this list to point fingers, 
blame, and insist that they are right. Telling someone that the reason 
a woman wants to do infinite ochos is because they do not know how to 
lead is not fair. You don't know that. I agree, the ability to be a 
good follower is just as important as to be a good leader. AND...there 
is always that remote possibility that we are not as good a dancer as we 
think we are. 

I have found that women dancers develop much faster than male dancers. 
The women become impatient and do not want to spend more money on 
classes when they feel that the men don't dance all that well. Men 
either drop out or continue to try and develop their skills. Women need 
good leaders in order to develop into good followers. How else are they 
supposed to learn? So if you guys have all these wonderful leaders, why 
aren't the women picking up on this? Why aren't they becoming more 
skilled? Do the guys not want to dance with women who they think do not 
meet their criteria to dance with them? Are the guys not as good as 
they think they are? 

I ask this out of my own experiences. I started to learn to dance tango 
in the U.S. I spent 4 years commuting to BA before moving here 
permanently. I did not take millions of classes or private lessons. I 
just danced. Learning from partners, from milongueros. My ability to 
become a good follower was from dancing with good leaders. I remember 
in the first years that I came here having out of body experiences - 
knowing I had just executed something because of the lead, not because I 
knew how to do it. At times I would remember myself thinking "so that 
is the lead for this." 

Obviously not everyone can come here. Maybe a little less finger 
pointing will help.





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