[Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques

Sun Jul 22 21:28:01 EDT 2007

Trini et al,

The problem with all such anatomical discussions as tools for tango 
instruction is that no dancer is moving as a solo entity when they're in 
the embrace. Even if a woman starts dancing by herself, what she does 
has consequences for her partner.

The mechanics of body movement in the embrace aren't the same as in solo 
movement.

I'm not saying that there's no insight in what you're looking at. But 
don't put too much stock in it. A woman's torso might rotate without her 
using _any_ muscles at all, if I'm her partner and I decide it will be 
that way. And to make that happen, I might only use muscles in my legs.

Jake
DC

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Thanks for the posting.  To be honest, I've put this topic
> on the back burner until I can check with the local gurus,
> who have been unavailable to me.  I'll look into your
> analysis more.  But here are a few things.
>
>   
>> 1) Extracting a quote out of its context, especially
>> when it is but an example, makes it sound like
>> gobbledygook; but even from this quote, it is evident
>> she is talking about turning the shoulders: be your
>> ouwn guinea-pig & try it for yourself. If you only
>> turn the shoulders, keeping the chest immobile, you
>> will not feel any tension below it, only around the
>> back of the upper spine. Now try turning the ribcage
>> as well and you will feel contractions of the
>> abdominals.
>>     
>
> I don't believe she is talking about only turning the
> shoulders.  She uses this example in a discussion about
> torso muscles, not about the arm structure.  Your example
> is more about arm structure movement, not torso rotation. 
>
>
>   
>> 2) The paragraph you have taken the quote from makes
>> it clear that she is only discussing "rotation
>> provided by extensor muscles" i.e. muscles at the back
>> of the spine. The abdominals are flexor muscles. The
>> previous, as well as the following paragraph
>> specifically mention the obliques involved in rotation
>> of the spine; furthermore, the table [10.1 Muscles of
>> the torso] on the following page lists both obliques
>> as being involved in rotation [well, I've got the
>> second [1996] edition].
>>     
>
> She mentions the abdominals in an example about a
> left-twisting sit-up, which we don't do in tango.  So I
> found that example is to be too muddy to be used in a
> discussion about ochos.  Konstantin's argument about
> obliques being the prime mover of rotation is what I
> consider to be the point of discussion.  She also makes a
> point of movement always starting from the center of the
> body (more on that later).
>
>   
>> 3) The obliques, being further away from the axis are
>> much more instrumental in the rotation of the trunk
>> that the erector muscles, which are much closer to the
>> spine, and therefore need more effort. The extensors
>> work on the Class 1 lever principle, where the
>> resistance arm is longer than the effort arm,
>> requiring therefore much effort to achieve very little
>> [as in rotating the shoulders only]. The flexors, on
>> the other hand are basically Class 2 levers, with the
>> resistance close to the axis [fulcrum], requiring
>> therefore much less effort.
>> [See Kinesiology, Lutgens & Hamilton, 1997, Brown &
>> Benchmark, or
>>
>>     
> http://www.spinalfitness.com/Demo/123%20effective%20lever%20arm%20course.pdf]
>
> Thanks for the source.  I'll look more into that.
>
>  
>   
>> 4) The rotation takes place in the thoracic & cervical
>> spine, not the lumbar part, due to the shape of the
>> articulating facets of the lumbar vertebrae [Fitt,
>> p67, or any basic anatomy handbook].
>>     
>
> On that same page, she also says that other experts believe
> otherwise, though such rotational movement is probably
> minimal.  Our position is that in walking, the point of
> where the thoracic and lumbar join is the joint where
> rotation for walking should occurs for maximum efficiency.
>
> But the big question is how does any of this relate to
> teaching tango?  I believe this aspect of rotation got
> started when Sean talked about movement coming from joints.
>  There are a few reasons why we prefer to talk about bone
> structure/joints than muscle structure in class, such as:
>
> 1.  Most people can't actually feel what muscle they are
> using anyway.   Tell someone to contract their obliques,
> and they'll probably end up contracting something else. 
> However, having them focus on a bone and the joint allows
> their brain to figure out on its own which muscles to use. 
>
>
> 2.  Even with people who know something about their
> superficial muscles, such as the obliques, they may use
> them in such a way that inhibits their deeper muscles to
> move freely (more below).
>
> 3.  Bones can be felt with endpoints (joints) more easily
> than muscles and muscle attachments.   It's much easier to
> show the rotation of the spine and actually see the
> movement of the vertebraes than it is to show the
> contraction of the obliques.  For the spine, I just need to
> wear a fitted shirt, pull up my hair, and walk around so
> folks can watch my back.  But I am not going to lift up my
> shirt to show how I contract my obliques.  Even if I did, I
> wouldn't have much muscle definition to show anything,
> anyway.
>
> 4.  Muscles, as Konstantin pointed out, only contract and
> cannot stretch itself.  Yet we feel a stretch when we
> dance, right?  We tell people to stretch this or stretch
> that.  But when we stretch, we are obviously contracting a
> muscle somewhere.  Figuring out what muscle to contract so
> that another muscle can stretch is simply too
> mind-boggling.  If people do contract a muscle, they often
> have a difficult time releasing it.
>
> In our work, we focus on REMOVING INHIBITORS to movement
> instead of trying to force a movement.  We believe that it
> is these inhibitors that make tango harder than it should
> be to the average person.  The most common inhibitor is
> tension in the superficial muscles (biceps, deltoids,
> obliques, etc).  When these are not fully relaxed, they
> limit the range of motion of deeper muscles and, thus,
> limit the range of motion of the joints.  They act as
> "containers" instead of "expanders".  In working with
> people, we've found that the first thing they need to learn
> is how to recognize tension and release their superficial
> muscles.  An example is when a beginner first learns the
> lapis, he usually tilts because he hasn't learned to
> separate his leg from his pelvis (his muscles aren't
> relaxed).
>
> The latter method ends us creating stiff movements and
> tension.  Ours is a longer term method but has worked
> effectively in producing good dancers.  We also have a
> movement expert that works hands-on with people.  It also
> has the benefit of producing a positive learning
> environment without the pressure to learn the hottest new
> step.  Instead, dancers focus on what feels good and
> compassion for other dancers.  It's groovy, man. :)
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>        
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