[Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango

[Konstantin Zahariev]

Dear Bruno,

We can start a discussion about unsourced or poorly sourced claims
from books or monographs, especially when on subject peripheral to the
main subject, especially from decades ago. I am really not being
contrarian here, despite appearances, just sceptical in a scientific
sense. I am aware of contradictory claims from different books. That
is why I tend to rely more on scientific (peer-reviewed) papers and/or
dissertations and theses, whenever possible.

And look at this sentence: "When Argentina lost its blacks it needed
that that the Tango rhythm return from Spain..." - raising all sorts
of flags already. Then ..." from the Habanera edited in Europe" - this
is not even a contradiction with the claim that the tango borrowed the
cuban habanera rhythm pattern (yes the spanish habanera had it as
well, since the spanish habanera was a cuban habanera that made it to
Europe).

It may be a matter of labelling preference to you and me, but a music
that has a haitian/west african rhythm pattern is not evidence to me
for european influence on the rhythm pattern of the tango. If
anything, its presence in european music is just evidence for
haitian/west african influence on the europeans, not the other way
around.

In parting, I think I have spent way too much time today on this. I
have to get my materials out and go through them again when I find the
time.

With best regards,

Konstantin
Victoria, Canada



On 7/18/07, romerob at telusplanet.net <romerob at telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Konstantin Zahariev,
>
> >From "La musica en Cuba", by Alejandro Carpentier, Fondo de Cultura Economica,
> Mejico 1967
>
> .....When Argentina lost its blacks it needed that that the Tango rhythm return
> from Spain through the Zarzuela (Operetta or Musical Comedy) and from the
> Habanera edited in Europe giving form to what is its national dance.
>
> Bruno
> -----Original Message----
> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Konstantin Zahariev
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:15 PM
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
>
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Tango borrowed the cuban habanera rhythm pattern. The spanish habanera
> is derived from the cuban habanera as it came to Spain and got adopted
> there.
>
> Secondly, ragtime itself is connected to West African and Haitian drum
> lines (time lines). I am not sure what we are arguing about here. As
> far as I remember, I did not claim that there has never been any
> influence from Europe on the development of the musical form; my
> comments were in the strict context of replying to claims about
> influences of european  _rhythms_ on tango.
>
> We should also separate the development of the musical form from the
> development of the dance form. Some of your examples below are about
> the dance form which I have thoughts on but have not addressed.
>
> Lastly, you say "early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and
> ragtime music.". As far as I can tell there were no milongas in the
> sense of post-1930 milonga, and the ones before that were folk music
> forms not associated with tango.
>
> As to cakewalk, you may be referring to the popular
> sixteenth-eight-sixteenth note combination. That one is actually
> present in several countries (Cuba, Brazil, USA) and, if memory
> serves, in many national/popular dances and it can all be traced,
> again, back to west african/haitian drum time lines.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
>
>
>
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