[Tango-L] How to Tango

[Floyd Baker]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:29:06 -0800, you wrote:

>"As for the other extreme, heavy lead, there are followers who want to
>be pushed and leaders who push.  They go together..  They enjoy each
>other for their own personal  satisfaction.   But that way it only
>takes one to tango."
>
>I can dance with what you call "heavy lead". And I do enjoy it. You are very
>wrong that this way it is only takes one to tango.  I assume you have no idea
>what it is about.   That is why you talking so much about it, and used
>actually wrong term "heavy lead" which is has nothing to do with this sort
>of dancing.  

If my term is wrong and has nothing to do with 'this kind of dancing',
please explain your version of it then.  As you see it and do it...?
Maybe why it's necessary too?   I'm aware I use my own terms in some
cases...  Perhaps I am here too?   Beyond reading the L's, I do not
have much contact with those with a large vocabulary on the subject.

>( I hope you do not suspect me for protecting those who do not
>know how to dance yet ).

But I am in fact only talking about those who do not know how to dance
yet.   So I guess in a way, this discussion is already moot.   

I do think we're talking about different things.   I'm even pretty
sure I understand how you look at it.   Tell me if I'm wrong but I
expect you see the frame as being held firm, with the follower closely
enclosed  in it,  to the point she 'must' come with you?   Fine by me
you know?   It's the 'frame',  and both can Tango.

But if that's what you're talking about, I'm referring to the other
side of that  fine line...   The one that should not be crossed.
Leaders and followers need to learn to lead and follow as individuals.
So I'm totally ok with rewording everything to elimiate useage of
'heavy lead' if you confirm another meaning to me..   That it's not as
I have described it.   I'll change my writing to "Do not horse the
lady around.".    Because to me it seems the same as dancing with a
store mannikin or a blow-up doll as a partner.    

I see this tendency as one of the biggest problems for new Tango
people.   One I think they should avoid like the plague.  

>Your writing is so arrogant and refusing to express contrary opinion that I
>should probably stay away from this discussion.    

I expected flames, Igor...    Flames are not a problem with me.   My
opinions are just that.    Mine.    And I did *ask* for contrary ones
after all.   Am I arrogant because I don't believe everything must be
grey?   That everyone should say 'maybe' this or 'maybe' that?   I
like to be more definitive, that's all.   Once I've thought things
out...  I do try to be right of course.  

But that's where caveat emptor comes in too.   I'm not one to say that
maybe Charly's ideas are better than mine.   That's up to the student
(or buyer) to figure out for themselves.   

I say it too, at the start of what I wrote.   I tell people I'm
conveying what *I've* learned.  

>It is difficult to write you, because I share many of your ideas, and I do
>not want to be looked upon like I refuse them. However I know other people
>like you. I do not believe that I can change your opionionizm, but I feel
>something has to be said.

I understand...   I think you misunderstand me.   Perhaps we are even
alike?    Believe it or not, I do pay attention to others.    I think
(most?) of what I've written should attest to that...?

>Floyd,
>You have written many interesting things, but I am sorry, it looks like you
>suffer from misunderstanding, aggressiveness and unforgiveness. Like many of
>us.

I agree we all have problems..   And Tango does bring out
individuality.  :-)   That's been discussed many times on the L's... 

So one of us has a 'misunderstanding' I guess...

As for 'unforgiveness', I've seen a lot wrong in Tango teaching
methods and I don't accept them any more.   That would be like not
caring about another's well being.   I have had to go through bad
teaching myself and I recognize it for what it did not do for me.  It
started on my own day one and I have wasted a lot of time since.    It
just took awhile to understand how bad it was.  That people take years
of going around through the back door of learning.   But worse, still
ending up thinking it was the only way to go?    I don't agree with
that at all.     

>I have several questions for you.
>
>- Have you ever danced Argentine Tango with an advanced ballroom partner, so
>that she said "Wow!" ?

Do they?     :-)

But you see?   You are in an entirely different environment.    I'm
trying to pass on better ways to 'learn' Tango, so one might get to
the point of doing that.  

>- Have you ever "heavy" lead a beginner so that she said "Wow!"?

My version?    Yes.   I'm afraid so.  
 
But I try not to now.    The wow is brought on for the wrong reason.  

>- Have you ever looked at distinguished Argentine Tango dancers and noticed
>a heavy forces between them playing their symphony? Do you really think they
>"heavy" lead each other?

Of course not.     Not as I use the term at least.   

But I do see the forces....  Leads more exagerated, quicker reaction
times,  more enthusiasm, much more attention paid to the dance and  to
each other.      

>- Are you able to dance fast and powerful?

I'm happy with my speed and power areas,  but I have a long way to go
before I'm a performer.   Although I have done demo's to large
audiences.   Personally I don't care for speed for speeds sake.  And
too.., everyone is more or less a beginner here.   It's not always
easy to put what you know into practice.   Or to put practice into
what you know. 

But that is not important anyway   Fast and powerful or hearing wow's
are not a prerequisite  to teaching beginners to Tango.  One can know
something enough to pass it on to those who can do something with it.
My very first time on water skis, with no snow experience either, I
had it all worked out in my head before ever getting into the water.
The feel of the strength of the rope pulling, the angles, the tilt
that the skis would need while still under water..   I went right up
and stayed up.  Only falling when I tried to ski on one leg only, or
when they boat put me ito a very forceful whip.    Both of them were
only a matter of not enough muscle.    

Just bragging about my 'teaching ability',  you know?  <g>  

>- Can you put a lady on your chest and make her fly?

>- Have you ever danced Vals, the way it supposed to be: with rotation?   If
>you had what do you think is the most "fun" in this dance?

The no stopping part....    

But you have to cut me some slack on these thins...    Eighteen months
ago there was zero Tango in my area, so for most of the 12 years I've
had little opportunity to actually physically dance Tango.., much less
to 'branch out'.   

I have a bad back wife and so spent a lot of the time simply studying.
Instruction tapes, deconstructing, doing mental, and solo practice.  I
used to say I was learning Tango from the inside out.   It's only the
last couple of years where I've been able to really get serious in a
steady and constant manner on the floor itself.  

Since then I've done a lot of improving in a more physical way.    But
I'll admit  the body still needs to catch up with the mind.     

I am liking the Vals more and more.., but it's only been for the last
5-6 months since that interest really began.  I'm working on rotation.
It's happening, but not smoothly as yet...   

>- Have you ever tried to teach people who can not make a step nicely, who
>are not able to stay on one leg at all, who might have a sense of rhythm,
>but their physical abilities prevent them from expressing it?

Those who cannot step nicely...?  All the time.  

I've taught Tango to a man with two prosthetic clamps for hands. I've
taught Tango  to 'clients' when their overseer brought them to
experience something new.    I personally have a 'physical'
difficulty.., being 6' 5".    I miss a lot of the 'connection' stuff
you know?   Yes it should not affect my dancing but I do know what I'm
missing.   And of course I've taught Tango when even I could not stand
on one foot.   Just last week in fact.   :-)

>- Have you ever experienced personal discomfort dancing with advanced
>dancers of "other" schools than yours?

Of course...   I have written about it.

>- Do you enjoy dancing with people from other schools, communities?

Not exactly...  I have written about that too.

Except for the odd individual I find at times.   Those who follow new
to them moves without saying so.., and not needing to be 'shown' how
it goes first.      

>Frankly, you should go through you writing and mercilessly eliminate your
>firm opinions when you judge about something which is disputable.  

That's why I've asked people to say what is disputable.   Else how can
I know which opnions need to be changed?   

>You do not leave room to save face. Then all the good stuff you have will 
>increase its usefulness.

I have asked for disputes.  I'm trying to make what I write as useful
as possible, for beginners mostly.    Secondly to those who are off on
the wrong foot and need to reconsider some things.  I've asked for
this help...  Either technical or on how to better put it across to
people in general.     

You might help by describing exactly how you view 'heavy lead', and
what is happening when you are using it.  At least tell me if you
disagree with my version being something that shouldn't be done? What
should I call my version if it is not the correct term.   That might
actually be the answer, eh?   To just call it 'horsing' the partner
around? 

>Your writing suffers from "heavy lead" in your own sense.

That I agree with totally...  :-)     I do have my convictions...   

But they always take a very long time to form..    It's not willy
nilly thought that I do.    And there has to be a time when decisions
are made and stuck to.   Are you not like that yourself?    

My problem is communicating with others.   Speaking the same
'language'.  Understanding what others actually think in detail.
Except for reading the L's I haven't had the opportunity,  you know?
Our area was what I sacrastically called a 'Tango Wasteland' and I've
always been rather isolated from main stream AT people.    Until I
started providing free, weekly, Tango dances here in May of 2005.

So just a few things in ending...  When all is said and done, I don't
want want to antagoinze any of the friends I've made through Tango.
I'm not bashing any individual for their dancing or teaching ability
in any way.   I'm only passing on what I have learned over the years,
from here and from other communities, so everyone has more to think
about.    

If people feel related to, I hope they understand that if they did not
exist, I would have written the same thing anyway..  :-). 

Btw...  Thanks for the other stuff you've said too...  That you agree
with a lot of what I've written.   So we're just in a state of flux,
eh?    Removing the impurities..?   <g>     Thanks...


>Igor

Floyd

     Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango 
      * * * * * www.buffalotango.com  * * * * *