[Tango-L] Varieties of cruzada-leads, and "Gustavo for beginners"
Brian Dunn
brian at danceoftheheart.com
Mon Aug 27 20:53:04 EDT 2007
Tom wrote:
>>>>
The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for
beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to
learn than feeling for what signals the cross...A far better instruction for
beginners is to teach lead for the cross using a diagonal shift of the axis,
which enables the "in-line" cross and very subtle "right-side crosses" as
well as, leading the "not-cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead
and not lead crosses with great subtlety.
<<<<
Agreed - it seems to me the RULE CROSS you describe is from an earlier,
simpler time in tango pedagogy - you and I know that both of us were trained
that way in the beginning ;)
>>>>
I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I
find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the
men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the
axis.
<<<
Agreed again - seems to require lots of untraining.
>>>>
Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find
that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE-
LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes
lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow.
Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE-
LEAD is mental and analytical.
<<<<
I'd say it takes beginners far less time to learn the "rule cross" than
30-40 minutes in our experience - probably about the same as the "axis
lead", as you call it - but it's still to be avoided. We make our beginning
followers aware of it as something they may experience with leaders who have
been trained that way, and we sort of apologize in advance for the
disconnected feeling they'll most likely experience at that moment from
those leaders, who often sort of expect the follower to just "do their job"
by going to the cross with no more communication from the leader than taking
up a certain body position.
I agree too about the difference in mental activity - the "RULE-LEAD" is to
me like sailing a big boat (press here, pull that, this will happen) while
the other (an example of "space-leading" in our nomenclature) is more like
windsurfing or skiing, involving full-body awareness, more visceral and
subrational. For us leading the cruzada in this way is part of a general
goal, to promote the "feeling" of connection as a single body moving through
space, at the perception level, in BOTH leader and follower.
>>>>
Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical
teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to
use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a
beginner...
<<<<
We were very fortunate to have, as part of Gustavo & Giselle's visit here,
the opportunity to see how Gustavo would actually share his teaching
expertise with brand-new tango dancers. Given that he's been doing this for
a quarter-century for countless thousands of beginners, I was very
interested to see what choices he'd make.
Rather than invoking the giro, he instead told a very charming little "tango
fable" about the origins of the dance ("seventy years, maybe one hundred
years ago, maybe three hundred years before Christ, the following thing
happened at a party somewhere, when someone put on some music, and a couple
started to move together...")
In this fable, the cross arose as a response to a follower's attempt to
reconnect with her leader after the leader suddenly did a front cross toward
the open side of the embrace to avoid an obstacle.
I should mention that from a pedagogical point of view, the whole fable was
designed to show the origins of common things in the tango, not necessarily
the way to "lead" them now.
Incidentally, he had everyone START with an embrace that was intimate enough
for the man's right hand to reach around and be underneath his partner's
right arm...justified because, as he said, "we LIKE this situation! She
knows I want to be with her! If I don't hold her like this, in this
situation, maybe soon she doesn't want to be with ME!"
So much for "Nuevo Tango" and "Open Embrace"... ;)
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
“Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time”
-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Tom Stermitz
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:51 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything,be
discouraged?
People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below
point out that things are different for different people, different
situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary
for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes
sense for an advanced.
Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than
teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging
from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over-
verbal bunchh
RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS
The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for
beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to
learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced
people the "RULE" applies in the sense that it is such a common move,
she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside.
Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead.
AXIS:
A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross
using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross
and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not-
cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses
with great subtlety.
SPIRAL:
I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I
find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the
men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the
axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads
it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected.
However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill.
Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find
that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE-
LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes
lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow.
Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE-
LEAD is mental and analytical.
I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical
bodies, and not thinking too much.
I'm in the school of "Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross". This has
the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the
decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get
better,
NUEVO ANALYSIS
Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical
teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to
use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a
beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the
giro has to come after ochos.
In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently
distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only
the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a
structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few
things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers?
On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, lgmoseley at aol.com wrote:
> ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should
> never cross
>
> automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically
> (unless
>
> she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she
>
> wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice).
>
>
> ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what
>
> is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is
> commonly
>
> only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait.
>
>
> ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless
> otherwise led)
>
> and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more
> conversational
>
> and communicative possibilities. I’d happily discuss on another
> occasion the
>
> many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present,
> but I have
>
> rabbited on long enough for one posting.
>
> Laurie (Laurence)
>
> 24 August 2007
>
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