[Tango-L] Women leading I

[Christopher L. Everett]

So far, the discussion is all in moral terms.

The arguments for tend to be appeals to practicality and/or quality.

Some arguments against, like Ricardo Vidort's, are appeals to tradition.

However, some arguments against amount to an appeal to "natural law",
with some but not all such arguments carrying a background assuption
that dancing with someone implies the possibility they might be getting
down and dirty later.  That is partially true, part of the time.

The important thing I notice about traditions is that the story (lifestyle
consciousness) about traditions rarely relate to their economic benefits
for cultures in terms of buffering unpredictability one way or another.

In purely economic terms, women leading women reduce the availablity
of partners for male dancers, and raise the standard they have to meet in
order to reliably secure dance partners.  Some might say the backlash is
all about men who can't dance getting a free pass on account of having a
Y chromosome.

There are multiple wins for women implied in women dancing together:

A) If they just want good dances, they can dance with women as well as
men and increase their options.

B) If they are using tango to sort potential male partners for the 
horizontal
mambo, dancing with women sorts out perceived quitters and weaklings,
and challenges the remainder to step it up.

C) If there is an extreme shortage of men, women dancing together
is a win for sisterhood.

Only when the cost of dancing with other women exceeds the benefits,
will it ever end.  There are 2 ways to do that:  increase the direct costs
by creating negative social consequnces (essentially, namecalling and
other modes of expressing disapproval), or increasing the cost of
opportunity (dancing with a woman means passing up a more desirable,
male partner more often).

Christopher

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> I made a summary of the answers so far, later perhaps we could discuss 
> some of the following ideas a little further. Sergio
>
> Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the subject of women 
> leading in tango : she says
>
> "He didn't comment on the
> subject of women learning to lead other than saying, "I don't believe 
> that a
> women should dance tango as a man" and said he would share his 
> comments with
> me at another time.   Ricardo didn't advocate women learning to lead in
> order to teach."
>
> This is an opinion that most Argentines both women and men agree 
> with.  I do not think that it has anything to do with machismo, it has 
> to do with many other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
>
> Do you know anything about this?
>
> Sergio
>
> 1  - Women leading men look finel, are very connected, both partners 
> are having a great time.
>
>  Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first began, men were 
> dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in order to dance 
> with a woman?
>
> Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to 
> learn to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
>
> What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your 
> partner's perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a 
> woman learns to lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
>
> Caroline Pollack
>
>
> 2 - To have a well behaved dog never let her lead you
> pulling on the leash in front of you...Lucia
>
> Why not forget about Tango for a moment, come to live for a few 
> months  in
> Argentina of the common non-dancing folk and try to understand their  
> mentality
> and way of life?
>
>
> 3 - One has to decide what one wants to do best, and learn
> ones own skill, instead of trying control everything
> that everyone else is doing. Derik.
>
> So why do US Americans tango
> teachers insist on calling our USA style of tango
> "Argentine tango", when in fact it is not the real
> thing at all.  Our US American tango is only a bad
> imitation of the real thing.  Derik
>
> Flipping back and forth and changing roles constantly
> by bending the rules, just because one is unsuccessful
> in a chosen role is a bad thing.  This is what I see
> too many women in the USA do in tango when they cannot
> get a man's attention.  To me it is wrong. They do not
> get attention because they are usually very bad
> dancers...lol. (...and they usually tell you that they
> are tango teachers to cover up their lack of
> skill and charm...lol)
>
> 4 - In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see women leading 
> women.
> Women have such beauty to add to the dance as women.... and all the 
> focus is
> on that.  I agree with this position, and that women leading women as a
> learning tool should be reserved for practicas and classrooms.
> Scott Bennett
>
> 5 - What a crock!  why is it that a woman can't be as good
> a leader as a man, and still be a good follower?  I've
> seen it, i've danced on either side of it, I know it
> is possible.  I think the naysaysers are just
> threatened. Kat
>
> 7 - Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
> Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
> correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
>
> I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
> dissatisfied with the leaders in their comm
>
> 6 - When in Pisa, do as the Pisans do -- lean with it.
> When in BsAs follow the local custom.
> Martin Waxman
>
> 7 - Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
> Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
> correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
>
> I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
> dissatisfied with the leaders in their community. Are they
> sending a message?
>
> Michael Ditkoff
>
> 8 - I started tango that it is taught asymmetrically even though the 
> motions
> of both parties are the pretty much the same once they get proficient.
> It also has impressed me that the learning curve is therefore steeper
> than it need be. I've also noticed that all the really good tango
> teachers I've run into know how to lead and follow and often suggest it
> to their students.
> Jeff Gaynor
>
> 9 - Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as much.
> Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
>
> Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing 
> it".
> Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
>
> Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
>
> 10 - For me, Tango is not a  furtherance of tradition as define
> by a select few, but fun and enjoyment that  grows from a tradition, a
> tradition if I have been reading my history correctly,  that has grown on
> change,
> albeit slow at times, but never the less  change.
> Just  some thoughts,
> Bill  in Seattle
>
> 11 - At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the 
> opposite
> gender. So what?
>
> For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
> This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and 
> culture, I
> do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There 
> is such
> thing like "feeling of the partner".
> Igor Polk
>
> 12 - In my club, a year or two ago, some girls were starting to lead. 
> It's fun,
> it's a new skill, and we would do it whenever we felt like it. Since 
> our gender
> balance is usually fairly close to equal, some of the guys found 
> themselves on
> the sidelines without a partner, watching the goings on. When there were
> several, they would usually start complaining, of course they also 
> found it
> secretly exciting, but that's another story.  Tine
>
> 13 - Hopefully all the men who never or rarely have
> been lead (how about closing  your eyes to give
> up all control), should check their
> "macho-meter" and try it! It is a great
> experience, lots of things to be discovered; you
> might like it in  the end!?
>
> Who cares what they do in Argentina, they were
> the ones bringing it to the world in the first
> place  (was it Paris?). So now  Tango is free, no
> rules ...Who ownes my Tango? Me!
> Miha Glockenspiel
>
> 14 - The guys are only complaining because the women who
> lead usually get to dance with the best followers. If
> there are 7 really good followers at a milonga, and
> three women are leading, that leaves only one good
> follower for us guys!
>
> Sean ;->
>
> 15 - But that doesn't matter - wherever you are, there are lovely 
> women dancers
> who are starting to lead out of necessity. In so many communities, women
> just get bored. If they don't lead, they sit way too much. Not hard to
> empathize. More and more opportunities all the time now.
>
> There are occasional times when another guy and I will dance a song just
> for fun - because not much is happening. Empty place type thing. Maybe
> twice a year. And we'll switch parts and enjoy 6 minutes of challenge. 
> And
> it is really fun, because women who lead tend to be kind of soft. To have
> a firm lead is a bit of a relief for a male follower.
>
> There is no way that is THE way. Never was. The Argentines have always
> taken their lead from the rest of the world after their initial outburts
> of genius. They invented it and would *perhaps* have lost it long ago
> without outside influence. History tells us so.
>
> Keith
>
> 16 - well i lead in buenos aires...  in classes and at the milongas..  i
>
> 11 - At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the 
> opposite
> gender. So what?
>
> For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
> This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and 
> culture, I
> do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There 
> is such
> thing like "feeling of the partner".
> lead friends of mine who are very good and sensitive dancers.  i have
> also led an Argentine male friend of mine who is an excellent
> follower.  women seek me out in classes (argentine and visitors) and
> everyone is surprised that i , a woman, lead as well as i do.  i
> think i receive more compliments than complaints and surprisingly
> probably get asked to dance more after i lead.   maybe everyone is
> more forgiving because i am an norte americana.  :-)
> Jackie Wong
>
> 17 - Now, I take issue with this deference to BA, but not simply (a) 
> because
> I live in DC, or (b) because we don't have the crowded-floor
> contingencies that make close-embrace dancing the only viable option.
> There's more to it than that. Even if I lived in Buenos Aires itself, I
> would still spare myself the kow-tow because, in point of fact, there
> has always been dispute, conflict, and competition over dancing styles
> there. If the city is definitively anything, it is definitively divided.
> Jake Spatz
>
> 18 - I couldn't imagine sitting out out a dance or having to settle 
> for a crappy
> partner.
>  Sweet if whoever, can learn whatever, in able to dance.
>  I'm with Keith, a few times a year, i'll dance with other guys.
>  Its a trip.  Ideally, a women rocks. Guys have big hands, fur 
> everywhere.
>  Women smell nice, soft skin, curves...
>  Leading is a trip to: followers will share in the experience you're 
> helping to
>  create...damndest thing.
> God
>
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