[LCM Articles] Lebanese Polls (fwd)

[jad mezher]

Dear Saad

 

I feel obliged to clarify the last sentence in my email that triggered your first email and started this whole debate.

 

“”“Can we still hope that whatever the anti-Lebanese are trying to do, one day, very soon, all the true lovers of Lebanon will once and for all show their allegiance only to the Lebanese flag free from any green or white stars?””””

 

I wrote this sentence because I felt disgusted at the site of two supposedly “Lebanese” citizens who participated in Tuesday’s demonstration carrying a Lebanese flag on which they drew two green stars next to the cedar. Of course you can realize what they were implying to.

 

I was talking about those people whom I called anti-Lebanese.



I do not understand how is that they claim to be  “Lebanese” ,work in Lebanon, benefit of the little that Lebanon has left to offer,  and just show their allegiance to the “sister”.

 

I can understand the fact that you don’t trust the US in helping Lebanon become free again.

Trust me; a lot of the mou3arada don’t either. The mou3arada had its own share of the US’s betrayal.

But did you ever watch a man drowning? Can you imagine what he feels at the last moment when he thinks the end is coming but can’t do anything about it?

Well if you can, then I bet you can imagine how a lot of Lebanese feel after 30 years of Syrian occupation.

 

Let’s disregard the US (which by the way gave the green light to Syria to invade Lebanon. America’s intervention was ok back then, but not now?  I find this very hypocritical. Please don’t think I am addressing this comment specifically to you)

 

France, Britain, the whole European Union, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, most of the Arab countries, most of the UN body are all asking Syria to leave, because even they, find that Syria has gone very very far in it’s occupation.

All of those mean nothing? Are they all flying in the US orbit?

It’s just something about the US that itches a lot of people, isn’t it?

 

Why was France great when it was against the US during the Iraqi invasion but not that great anymore not that it’s working for the Freedom of Lebanon?

Is Iraq much better than Lebanon?

If you know the answer, can u please tell me, I am really curious to know.

 

And to assure you that the Lebanese that are asking Syria to leave don’t want that just to be able to bring in the American’s, I included the “white stars” comment in my question above (implying the stars on the American flag, to make it clearer)

Because for me personally I don’t want either countries interfering in mine.

 

But some people who do not believe in Lebanon make it harder to accomplish that. I guess we both need to agree that those are NOT called Lebanese.

 

I hope we can reach a point where all people in Lebanon believe in Lebanon as their one and only country but of course with special relationships with our friends especially Syria.

 

If we don’t reach this ultimatum, I can assure you that Lebanon will never be at peace, and I don’t believe that’s what either parties want.

 

To finish my argument, and since Lebanon is a democratic country as we all proclaim, I can only say the real course of things will be revealed in the democratic process of FREE elections and not in the street demonstrations.

This said, I just want to clarify few points about Tuesday’s demonstration:

1)       We all know that Hizballah has a huge base that he can mobilize in a second. But I believe we all agree that currently it mainly consists of Shia. Which according to the latest electoral lists, released only a month ago, make up only 26% of the Lebanese population. Not all the population. Adding some other pro-syrians and even pure Syrians and Palestinians to the people that came out of the 26%, I believe they could gather the 500 000 demonstrators that the international medias( which by the way you rely on) were circulating and not 1.5 millions that the Lebanese government media was promoting.  I find the 500 000 number more reasonable since Riad-el-solh cannot fit more than that even if you squeeze them like sardine( using mathematical formulas and geometrical forms, since u like that), and knowing that the 500 000 people that attended the Pope’s mass in 1997 at the Beirut port needed a much bigger space to fit.

2)       Everybody knows how all the logistical help of the Lebanese government goes to the pro-syrian parties

3)       The huge number that demonstrated on Tuesday cannot represent the majority, as some people proclaim, or even the minority, because an even bigger number of Lebanese stayed at home or are stuck in their adoptive countries whom stance on the subject we don’t know.

 

 

Finally I would like to say thank you, because of the opportunity for all of us to have a constructive debate. 

I know that some comments or views might be repulsive to others, but at least it’s good that we are talking what we really feel. I think that’s what Lebanon mostly lacks nowadays.

Hopefully all of us will be able to reach in the very near future, a common ground on our aspirations for Lebanon

 

Take care

 

 

N.B: The claim that Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabitant city in the world is not totally true, since the debate is still on and some historians think that the title should go to Byblos.

And since I am Lebanese, I am more inclined to go with Byblos J . I hope u 2.

 


saad mneimneh <saad at engr.smu.edu> wrote:I accept the "weak", "illogical", and "unfounded" description...
It really does not mean anything, because it depends on what assumptions
and axioms you start with.
And most of the times, it only depends on what you think (human nature).

Otherwise, if everything is logical and founded, how come no one can
convince no one.
We all have the logic encoded in our brains. It is only a matter of
assumptions.

I am not interested in a debate. But I am including a small reply for
each section.
And this will be my last email, but I like the idea of discussing things
openly...
So I will say: keep up the open minds...

saad.

"Jessy E." wrote:

> With all due respect: (1) it's such a conspiracy theory statement to
> say that the UN is "unofficially and virtually a US operated
> organization". The reps of over 50 countries who met in 1945 to put
> together the U.N Charter were not brought together by your so called
> "unofficial" U.S organization, they were brought together for an ideal
> (maybe too ambitious if you want) to achieve and work on international
> peace and security, yes they may have failed at times, but they are
> still looked at as an unbiased body. Do not forget the U.N resolutions
> condemning Israel for the many atrocities against Palestenians--The
> U.S always vetoed and Israel always declined voting-- And so the U.N
> was always looked at as a body that at least attempts to put things
> back in persepective-- We look up to the U>N because they at least
> have a security resolution that demands the Syrians to leave Lebanon
> and if it weren't for them none of the Arab countries would dare say
> such a thing in public.
>
> >>>>>>Hmmm... interesting... I VETO.
> Nothing is ideal in this world. UN failed in every respect, except for
> few times.
> (2)The thousands of young men and women sitting in Martyr square are
> not holding signs that say "U.S in" they are holding signs that say
> "Syria out". So why in the world whenever for once we stand up to ask
> for something that is our absolute right, all of a sudden we are
> accused of inviting foreign intervention to a "sister" country? so I
> really do not see the link here, as for your question why do we seek
> outside help if we really believe in Freedom and independence? Well
> that's because my fellow Lebanese if we did indeed learn anything from
> history that will be that our week quasi-Syrian government will never
> stand up to Syria and if we get the help of the international
> community to claim our rights then you know what? By all means, I
> would a zillion times rather get the help of the Americans to kick the
> Syrian out, then to stay for another 30 years under occupation with a
> so called Lebanese Government that does not even consider that we are
> under Syria's occu! pation and it repeats to us the stupid, cliche,
> ignorant claim that "Syria is our sister country". Nobody is asking
> for military intervention, nobody is asking for another occupation, if
> anything the demonstrations taking place are the most peaceful we have
> ever seen, apart from the "ignorant few" who carried guns in Tripoli
> and those ignarant other few who were photographed with knives and
> tattoos of the Syrian president during the demonstration called for by
> Nasrallah.
> >>>>>>>>YA SALAM:
> >>>>>>>>"I would a zillion times rather get the help of the Americans
> to kick the Syrian out, then to stay for >>>>>>>>another 30 years
> under occupation with a so called Lebanese Government that does not
> even >>>>>>>>consider that we are under Syria's occu!"
> Here are a few questions for you to seriously think of: Our bad
> economy? Syria plays the lead role in it. Do you forget the BILLIONS
> of dollars Syria makes from Lebanon every year just by maintaining its
> grip over us?
>
> >>>>>>>I don't believe that's an accurate statement. Some of it might
> be true though. In that case, yes I forget. I do not wish to provide
> more explanation. Did you ever wonder WHY IN THE WORLD does Syria not
> maintain an Embassy in Lebanon? Did you ever wonder Why Lebanon does
> not have an embassy in Syria? How in the world can two countries not
> maintain diplomatic ties with each other unless there is no respect to
> the sovereignty of the coutries? I'll tell you why, Syria has ALWAYS
> and WILL continue to consider Lebanon a part of its own, and until it
> realizes that we are very far from being Syrian, it will refuse to
> maitain diplomatic ties by having an official embassy in Lebanon.
> >>>>>>>I don't see that respect of sovereignty implies that we have to
> have embassies.
> And about the Batrak not taking the Sheikh with him to the
> U.S?????????? I'm sorry I didn't know they are supposed to escort each
> other on official visits!!!! since when does the Batrak have to let
> the Sheikh know "hey buddy wanna catch a flight to the U.S with me?!!"
> I am sure if the Sheikh desires a trip to the U.S then nothing would
> stop him, there shouldn't be any pouting I would think!
> >>>>>>> you totally missed the point here. I certainly did not imply
> this simplistic meaning.... Otherwise it is very childish on my part.
> (3) It really is uncalled for to poke fun at the fact that pple
> prayed in their own way and brought candles to show unity and support.
> This was and is the most spontaneous act that all the Lebanese have
> ever engage in that your remarks serve nothing but to undermine the
> will of people who felt so enraged at what happened they decided to do
> something about it instead of staying home and bitching about it.You
> may think they are wasting their time downtown but to the whole world
> they have written history and pessimist views like your own have never
> and will never serve Lebanon. >>>>>>>I do not undermine the will of
> people. Some of them definitely were in grief and sincere.
>
>

saad.

--
Saad Mneimneh
http://engr.smu.edu/~saad/
(214)768-3097


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