[Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures

[Nussbaum, Martin]

 I guess I am not as dogmatic a purist as you are, Manu, in that I will
accept soltadas or embrace changes as part of tango.  Yes, the 4th
sacada in question may require a release of the embrace, or maybe an
overhead or behind the back salsa- type hand shift, since the leader
spins in the opposite direction from the follower.  These are referred
to by Gustavo Naveira as "fourth sacadas" and by others as "inverted
sacadas."  If you want your nuevo tango to look more pure, it is
preferable to use soltada rather than borrow an overhead hand shift from
another dance.  Its just the pre lead right before the soltada has to be
very clear so the follower knows where to step when there is no embrace.


-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Ruiz [mailto:manuel.ruiz at skynet.be] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:13 AM
To: Nussbaum, Martin; tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures

Martin wrote:
"For each step of
follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left, back
sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of 
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.) So that makes 24

> for leader. "

I believe you can only do 3 different "traditional" sacadas for the
"giver" 
instead of 4 to the trailing foot of the follower since the turning
direction is already determined by the follower step. If you're both
turning clockwise that would be for the leader:
    - open (forward or side) with left (1);
    - front cross with right (2);
    - back cross with right (3);

You counted:
    - forward with left (1);
    - backward with left;
    - forward with right (2);
    - backward with right (3);
correctly stating that
    - side with left is structurally the same as forward with left
    - side with right (as far as that is possible) is structurally the
same as forward with right


I think "backward with left" is only realistic if you combine it with a 
soltada or something. Maybe not a "pure" tango move.

The "basic" total would then be:
(2 dancers) x (3 receiver steps) x (2 receiver feet) x (3 "giver" steps)
= 
36 instead of 48

Regards,

Manuel

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:03 PM
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Cc: <syarzhuk at gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures

>
> Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas?   Please show
> them to me.
>>From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
> Here is my analysis:
> Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
> involving full weight shift  for follower in tango.   Front cross,
back
> cross, and open.   They can be done with two different feet. So thats
a
> total of six positions available to sacada.    For each step of
> follower, lets say right open step, the leader  could do 4 different
> sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left,
back
> sac with right or left.  (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety
of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
> So that makes 24 for leader.   The follower could be led to do the
same
> to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
> -Martin Nussbaum
>