[Tango-L] Words and music

Thu May 24 15:15:07 EDT 2007

    Unfortunately, Jake you read many, many things into my posts which were
not there or maybe you misconstrued them. I never dissed DJs nor dancers. In
fact, I stated that I was very open to input. I specifically dissed Igor and
Chris because, I have seen them behave like bullies and jerks to dancers as
well as musicians. They have held themselves up as 'experts' on everything
that apses their lips, including music.
I also did not diss critics as a whole. Read back what I said with full
comprehension and you will see, I said some critics know what they are
talking about. I also said that dancers should not dictate to musicians from
on high as if they are gods (that's the gist anyway). They should want to
cooperate and have the proper respect. I have respect for dancers, want to
play for them, want their guidance, with respect. Not with the rude way
Chris and Igor present themselves. I did state that there is a definite
difference between DJs and musicians but , I did not in any way say they
were worthless. Seriously, reading comprehension is a fabulous thing.


    Other than that everything you've posted here is based on totally
misunderstanding me and my statements. I have never claimed to be a master
dancer, musician or DJ. Nor a master of the English language but, if Igor's
going to behave like an arrogant jerk,  he should at very least get his
terms correct.

    I am very open to a discussion that involves mutual respect. Clearly
what sparked this and conversations involving Igor and Chris don't usually
involve that.

    If anyone would like an open, polite dialogue from here on about how
dancers and musicians can work together in mutual cooperation, I am more
than willing to participate, give my input and listen.

_AJ

> From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz at tangoDC.com>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:40:20 -0400
> To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Words and music
> 
> AJ (etc.),
> 
> So far I've seen you dis DJs (they're not musicians), critics (they're
> hacks), dancers (their perspective is uninformed), and just about
> everyone EXCEPT fucking musicians. Meanwhile, I've seen Igor and Chris
> (your chosen antagonists in this debate) offer perfectly valid criticism
> of live tango bands _that play at milongas_-- all of which amounts to
> the single point that some of these bands, some of the time, are not
> playing to their audience (in the case of a milonga, dancers).
> 
> I've also sat here and watched you complain about criticism that offers
> "no" constructive program or suggestion (i.e., support to the
> criticized), while offering NOTHING of constructive value yourself to
> other musicians who might be following this thread. You're setting an
> example for nothing but resentment-- and if we have to coddle the
> aspiring, let them descend, I say. Stages are not for rehearsal what
> time the floor is packed.
> 
> As a writer, I almost take offense to your correction of Igor's
> spelling, not only because of your own plethora of slop usage & typing,
> but because you evidently overlooked what was an accidental but quite
> interesting pun, which a goddamn "professional" musician ought to have
> picked up on. Moreover, Igor's posts (and Chris's especially) are
> usually worth reading Twice, because these guys consistently Think
> before they start whacking buttons. I have sparred and debated with
> both, and I daresay the respect due a worthy opponent has been wanting
> not on their end, but on yours.
> 
> I don't mean to dig you a grave here, man, but you have made some
> egregious over-reactions.
> 
> The entire history of GOOD art criticism-- in music, drama, design, or
> what have you-- stands against your arguments. The best critics of music
> have always been musicians; of writing, writers; and so on down the
> line. To read the way you dismiss dancers' perspectives as "ignorant" is
> disgusting to me as a dancer, critic, DJ, and musician; you might as
> well blame your instrument as write off the audience. And to call
> critics envious wannabes, or even "hacks," is a childish attitude--
> worthy perhaps of this forum, but not of anyone engaged seriously in the
> arts.
> 
> Secondly, you make the broad statement that dancers & DJs aren't
> musicians, and therefore lack a proper (or at any rate, ideal)
> understanding of the music they play. And yet you are both a DJ and a
> musician, as well as a dancer; and so am I; and so are plenty of tango
> DJs; and so are plenty of tango dancers. The grounds from which you're
> trying to defend "musicians" are probably more imaginary (because overly
> simplistic) than real.
> 
> Thirdly, to argue that a tango DJ is "not a musician" is a tad
> thoughtless. A DJ's instrument is essentially their collection plus a
> sound system; they do basically the same thing a guitarist does, only on
> a different scale, and without either the responsibility or the artistry
> of a "real musician." Their relation to the phonic arts is more or less
> the equivalent of a photographer's to the visual arts: they may not
> create their work from scratch (and neither does a musician who plays
> covers), but they do nonetheless present something in the same medium.
> And DJs, like musicians, are subject to critique by the very same
> standards: how well they do their thing relative to others in the field
> (a), and (b) how much the audience uncontrollably gives a damn.
> 
> A few weeks back, there was a thread here that discussed tango
> arrangements; and I, for one, wrote of practical measures and deliberate
> agendas which a tango band nowadays might pursue to its advantage. If
> you're so up in arms about supporting musicians and making criticism
> count, where were you for that? Where are you now? Which artists on
> earth is your counter-attack actually serving?
> 
> Heed the vocal line: That is my advice to musicians who would play for
> dancers. Build the marcado around that, to support it, and you will
> produce a relatively danceable arrangement and perhaps even performance.
> That is what the trios and duos typically do, and that is why they
> succeed in the eyes of their audience (dancers).
> 
> Again, I recently danced in Atlanta, to an entirely successful duo
> (Manuel can verify this, I'm sure: he was there), and they succeeded
> because they respected the lyrics-- and they had no singer. I can still
> remember that they gave an interesting treatment to "Caminito," although
> the particulars escape me, because the vocal line had (to my ear) a
> unique canyengue swing to it. You could sing along to their work,
> provided you knew the words-- AND it wasn't a carbon copy. If a gringo
> schmuck like myself can enjoy the music on that level, it must point to
> something effective.
> 
> The dominant _perceived_ tendency nowadays is that tango orchestras
> follow the virtuosi of the concert stage-- 60s Troilo, Pugliese, and
> Salgan, to be exact. But the smaller ensembles often don't opt for this
> route. The Trio Hugo Diaz (bandoneonist) often did, and made music
> unsuitable for dancers but perfectly acceptable otherwise. The ensemble
> led by the _other_ Hugo Diaz (harmonica, and not quite a virtuoso)
> showed more reverence for (what was originally) the vocal line, with
> much better dance-floor results. Likewise, the Muchachos de Antes (on
> their recordings), Trio Pantango, and Los Tubatango succeed with dancers
> when their music presents, rather than departs from, the rhythm & melody
> of The Words.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that the "Golden Age" ended not because
> the musicians ran out of gas, but because Buenos Aires ran out of solid
> pop lyricists. Manzi and Discepolo (the giants) both died in 1951;
> Homero Exposito was running on fumes around that time, and losing
> interest in writing; everyone else was dead or dying. Horacio Ferrer and
> Eladia Blazquez, the only lyricists of note after the 50s, wrote mostly
> for Piazzolla.
> 
> There are, I'm certain, many other factors involved; but this is a huge
> one, which dancers (except in Argentina, largely) remain in the dark
> about, and which musicians nowadays tend to overlook, for no reason
> except their stupidity (perhaps their ignorance, or arrogance) related
> to the hybrid nature of SONG.
> 
> To my knowledge, no contemporary tango band (perhaps-- Perhaps--
> excepting Daniel Melingo and Kevin Johansen) is consistently producing
> new material with anything but shit lyrics. If I am mistaken on this
> point, I can not only be corrected, but enlisted as a translator.
> 
> I mention all this to invite serious debate and counter-suggestions,
> provided there are any, regarding the actual making of music. If
> musicians out there really do need a mommy's encouragement, I advise
> them to quit and save themselves a lot of fucking time. If they want
> practical advice, as artists, they have plenty herewith.
> 
> If they want to be "defended" by reductive argument and a hero who
> shoulders attacks he considers unworthy, well, keep checking your email
> instead of practicing your arrastre, or working on your walk.
> 
> They are, ultimately, one and the same.
> 
> (A.) (J.) Spatz
> DC
> 
> AJ Azure wrote:
>> There seems to be a misconception that I am arguing for dancers not saying
>> anything, that is not the case. I am saying have some tact and respect when
>> asking for something. Don't criticize, request.
>> 
>> I want to play for dancers. I welcome guidance and requests. What I do not
>> want is arrogance, pomposity and rudeness sent my way.
>> 
>> I've seen both Igor and Chris do this to other dancers on this list as well.
>> It's just not civil and certainly not conducive to open discussion or growth
>> of a community.
>> 
>> 
>> Other than that, I can't disagree with anything you've said.
>> 
>> 
>> -AJ :)
>>   
> 
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