[Tango-L] Acrimoniousness and the red herring of moderation

Thu Jul 19 11:54:28 EDT 2007

Nina,

I completely agree with you.   I was going to reply to
Carol's postings but
you put it better than I could.  Thank you for saying
what you did.

By the way Carol.... I truly enjoyed Nina's posting
although not agreeing
with most of it.  I can honestly say that I would
enjoy meeting her
face-to-face. :)

Nina is also right that these perceptions (that we are
discussing here) are
a matter of cultural difference (and definitely
gender).

Cheers,
Amaury

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Nina Pesochinsky
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:46 AM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Acrimoniousness and the red
herring of moderation

Carol, Mash and everyone,

Perhaps some of you have not been on this list very
long.  This list 
has not seen a single flame in YEARS.  There is a
little poking and 
teasing, but no flaming. Criticism or disagreement is
not 
flaming.  If you want to read real flaming on this
list, then go back 
to the archives of 1997 or so.

This list is gentle and polite by comparison to what
it used to be. 
Not only did it have real flames, but there was a much
worse kind of 
flaming - in private e-mails.  That is why should this
list ever see 
any flaming in the future, I encourage people to let
others know that 
if they welcome their flames, they all have to be in
the public forum 
and not via private communication.

On another note, if you think that you can be bullied
on Internet, 
then how do you survive in your real life?  Does
whining and 
complaining about the behavior of others without
naming them gets you 
the results that you want?

Carols points demonstrate clearly a difference between
direct 
aggression and passive aggression.  On this list, it
appears that 
people accused of flaming are being directly
aggressive towards other 
people and/or their ideas.  Passive aggression is
expressed by others 
as hints and abstract ideas without ever naming
anyone, but implying 
their identity.  I believe that this difference is
cultural.  Even 
though both forms of aggression exist in all cultures,
some cultures 
prefer the direct approach while others avoid direct
confrontation 
without giving up their own aggression.

To me passive aggression is cowardly, so I probably
would be more 
direct if flame wars ever returned to this list.  It
is an issue of 
integrity - if I am willing to put my ideas forward,
then I have to 
accept the risk that they will be unpopular.  I
believe that other 
people have a right to express their disagreement with
my ideas 
however it feels right to them, as long as it is
legal.  My 
responsibility is to choose my own response.  Trying
to control 
others usually does nor work very well.  While the
integrity is 
required, suffering, feeling bullied and offended is
optional.

As far as tango goes, it really works well to become
more Argentine 
than the Argentines are. :)

Best,

Nina

At 03:12 AM 7/19/2007, Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Apparently the answer to Miles' query is that for
some reason, in the
>online tango community, the dominant players generate
and consume poison
>and unpleasantness as a form of entertainment.
>
>They expect others to be wired the same way.  They
feed on provocation
>and conflict and if it is not there in sufficient
quantity, they will
>stir the pot.  They engage in display behavior by
acting out their
>dominance and they award themselves self esteem
points through bullying.
>   These self-esteem points are very easily obtained
because everyone is
>remote and there are no social consequences to
bullying or other bad
>behavior.
>
>Accordingly, on tango-l there is no consensus (as
there is generally in
>polite society) that to be acrimonious and impose
your unpleasantness on
>others is morally wrong or stressful on a community,
or even bad for
>your karma or your blood pressure.  To the contrary,
it is celebrated.
>The community does not want a moderator because the
community does not
>want to lose its primary form of entertainment.
>
>It is unfortunate that the highest and most
intellectual discussion of a
>particular human endeavor (tango) to be found, as on
this list, requires
>subjecting oneself to the petty amusements of others
who take their
>entertainment primarily in the form of bullying
others, and who justify
>their mean and uncivilized behavior by claiming that
it is actually a
>necessary expression of "passion and intensity."
>
>When in Rome, be aware that Romans are going to
continue being Romans.
>
>This does not mean that you must be a Roman.
>
>'Mash wrote:
> > I look forward to the day that we can use "flame
wars" as a 
> sustainable energy source.
> >
> > 'Mash
> > London,UK
> >
> > "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose
the ability to
dance."
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 02:28:11PM -0600, Nina
Pesochinsky wrote:
> >
> >>Amaury,
> >>
> >>On the tango lists, there are only two choices -
you either die or be
> >>killed, or grow thick skin.  Welcome to the list1
> >>
> >>Nina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 02:16 PM 7/18/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote:
> >>
> >>>My first experience with list moderation date as
far
> >>>back as 1993-4 with the
> >>>KMUG (Kansai Mac Users Group) list.  At the end
of the
> >>>day moderation was as
> >>>detrimental to the list as non-moderation.
> >>>
> >>>One of the rationales behind list moderation is
> >>>sustenance of an online
> >>>community.  Implicit in this argument is the idea
that
> >>>constant disruption
> >>>and flame war is likely to push certain members
to
> >>>leave the community thus
> >>>eroding the quality of membership and content of
> >>>postings.
> >>>
> >>>The bottom line for me is the 'age' of a list. 
That
> >>>is, an old established
> >>>list with strong membership and displaying high
> >>>quality posting may not be
> >>>susceptible to the eroding effects of flame and
> >>>disruption.  It seems to me
> >>>that this list's quality FAR exceed the once in a
> >>>while virulent posting of
> >>>some listeras. ;)
> >>>
> >>>Some flames evolve into rich discussion and
edifying
> >>>exchanges.  Nina's
> >>>abhorrent posting is a good case in point.  I
learned
> >>>as a result of an
> >>>initial nonsensical posting - (thank you to
> >>>Konstantin, Huck, and all
> >>>others)
> >>>
> >>>A censored list may strip the list of its
richness of
> >>>expression.  Granted
> >>>we should all try to display certain level of
> >>>civility.   However, I must
> >>>say that the entertainment value of some postings
> >>>bring a smile to my face.
> >>>That alone makes it all worthwhile.
> >>>
> >>>Cheers,
> >>>Amaury
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
> >>>[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> >>>m i l e s
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:11 PM
> >>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
> >>>Subject: [Tango-L] A Cautionary Phrase (was:
> >>>Acrimoniousness)
> >>>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>After reading everyones responses my post about
> >>>Acrimoniousness...
> >>>
> >>>"You can tell a fool he's doing a foolish thing,
it
> >>>may not change
> >>>anything, but at least the truth is where it
needs to
> >>>be". - Kosh,
> >>>Vorlon Ambassador, Babylon 5.
> >>>
> >>>Oh and one thing about list moderation, the list
> >>>moderator in my
> >>>estimation in question isn't doing a good job of
list
> >>>moderation if
> >>>they're acting like that.  A good list moderator,
> >>>shepherds the
> >>>conversation and doesn't stifle it!  That's a
rare
> >>>skill and not
> >>>everyone is cut out for it, so its wise when
starting
> >>>a list to pick
> >>>someone ELSE other than yourself to moderate a
list.
> >>>
> >>>Lastly, I find it interesting that you folks took
the
> >>>better portion
> >>>of my note and discarded it in favor of focusing
on
> >>>the one thing
> >>>that was an after thought, the list moderation. 
As a
> >>>friend of mine
> >>>once said, "People are gonna do what they're
gonna do,
> >>>and you can't
> >>>change that.  But you can influence them by how
you
> >>>carry yourself."
> >>>
> >>>M i l e s.
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Tango-L mailing list
> >>>Tango-L at mit.edu
> >>>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>_________________________________________________________________

> ___________________
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> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw PLC
>Ann Arbor MI USA
>734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
>http://arborlaw.com
>
>"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
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