[Tango-L] World Class tango dancers....

Wed Jul 18 08:03:56 EDT 2007

A few years ago - at the time the first Campeonato Mundial was cancelled -, I posted a letter here on this list, in which I said, that the economical crisis of Argentina created an even greater urge to make tango exclusive Argentine property, and ultimately create a situation where nothing will be called "real" Argentine Tango that is not danced by an Argentine.

I was attacked for that remark.

I never doubted that the tango is strongly linked to Argentina. 

My problem was that tango would NOT be viable as a popular dance in (or at least the masters would not be limited to) Argentina anymore without the foreign tourists financing it (both tango and the economy built around tango). 

This is also the reason why in other countries, there is much less chance of having brilliant tango masters evolving. For example: if in Hungary we had a hundred tango dancers who'd like to (and could) _make a living_ (become professionals) on really rich foreigners visiting the country for tango, a potential master would have both the financing, the possibility and the motivation to become that master. 

This is the economy of tango. It does confirm that tango masters are more likely to be Argentine or at least living in Argentina (Buenos Aires to be exact), while it does take the credit away from "birthright", "sucked in with the mothermilk" theories.

Also, it implies, that contemporary and especially future tango is NOT (going to be) an exclusively Argentine product. Or at least not more than Armani is an Italian product (check how many Italians wear Armani in Italy)... or (in the near future) as Nike is a Chinese product (their manufacturing is mostly located in China). 

Simply because it is one of the basic principles in business is to sell consumers what they want. The consumers are not Argentine, so that makes tango take a form (as it is already doing both by being over-authentic, showy or "new") the consumers want it. 

Aron

Hodgson> But Nina dear:
Hodgson> It is what people have done since time immortal. Some for benevolent reasons
Hodgson> and some out of pure ego. It does not really matter these reasons.

Hodgson> What matters is that I dance, and that I do not forget where tango came
Hodgson> from. It also matters what I am adding to tango for the ones who dance and
Hodgson> will be dancing. It matters even more that I do not forget my own past.

Hodgson> As for the comment about your knees, (no begging that part just does not
Hodgson> work with you). Nice!

>>From one idiot on the dance floor to another (yes, you miles and the other
Hodgson> fools here as well). As many argentines have said: Shut the hell up, dance,
Hodgson> show me what you got, you think too much.

Hodgson> Zorrito...
Hodgson> Am off to dance.

Hodgson> -----Original Message-----
Hodgson> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
Hodgson> [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Hodgson> Nina Pesochinsky
Hodgson> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:12 PM
Hodgson> To: tango-l at mit.edu
Hodgson> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers....

Hodgson> Miles,  don't read this!  It is totally uncivilized!

Hodgson> I am on my knees begging forgiveness of all the well-educated, 
Hodgson> well-informed, super sensitive, delicate beings on this list who do 
Hodgson> not bother to contribute to the world of tango knowledge except when 
Hodgson> mortally offended.

Hodgson> And I take full credit for making people like Amaury so outraged that 
Hodgson> their little voices are finally heard roaring defending the history, 
Hodgson> the great maestros, and the glorious history of tango and its 
Hodgson> rhythms!  And they manage to offend most Argentines by claiming that 
Hodgson> tango is not an Argentine product!  Such gorgeous idealism and 
Hodgson> ignorance makes me misty...

Hodgson> Hey folks, in case those of you who have been dancing for a decade or 
Hodgson> two do not know, Argentine Tango is European!

Hodgson> You go, Amaury!  I am cheering you on!

Hodgson> Nina
Hodgson> Arrogant, abnoxious and bored-to-tears

Hodgson> P.S. Universal art form?!  I swear that these greedy foreigners just 
Hodgson> want to make my Argentine Tango their own!

Hodgson> At 06:44 PM 7/17/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote:

>>Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is
>>the most nonsensical
>>and offensive.

>>Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about
>>the history of the
>>dance.  Little does she know about the history of the
>>dance.  That the
>>Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned
>>Tango (and disowning
>>it)and the French welcomed with open arms.   That the
>>Tango is not an
>>Argentine product, but the product of fusion between
>>afro-Caribbean and
>>European rhythms.   That in an era of increasing
>>global awareness any claims
>>to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly
>>and infantile.

>>Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great
>>masters.  It is a
>>disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting
>>to promote tango as
>>an universal art form.

>>Cheers,
>>Amaury

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
>>[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>>Clif Davis
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM
>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers....

>>Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ...
>>B.... S....
>>I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than
>>on this list.
>>And people say people from the US are arrogant. We
>>have a long way to go to
>>catch up with this steaming pile.

>>Oops, sorry, was that arrogant?
>>CAD3
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
>>[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>>Nina Pesochinsky
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM
>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers....

>>Deby,

>>I just want to clarify that we are not talking about
>>the same
>>things.  You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San
>>Francisco, i.e.
>>places that belong to the world.

>>I am talking about the world of Argentine tango.  The
>>world of
>>Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina.  If it
>>exits, it
>>becomes some other world, like the geographic world.
>>The geographic
>>world-class is too low of a standard of dancing.  The
>>Argentine
>>world-class is the real thing.

>>So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world
>>beginning and
>>ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can
>>produce one.

>>So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango
>>that is, and try
>>to become a world-class dancer there even if they were
>>not born
>>Argentine.  And it still will not happen because of
>>that tiny blemish
>>of the wrong origin.

>>The bottom line is that in order to be considered a
>>true world-class
>>dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines
>>themselves.  And if you are not Argneitne, that will
>>never
>>happen.  Argentines are fanatical nationalists.

>>Warmest regards,

>>Nina

>>At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote:
>> >Nino wrote:
>> >
>> >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class
>>tango
>> >dancer and might as well forget about it because the
>>world of tango,
>> >with all the "classy" dancing,  begins and ends in
>>Argentina.:)  This
>> >is an absolute.
>> >
>> >
>> >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have
>>written.  Junior
>> >Cervila,  he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and
>> >from..........Brasil.  The same for Paulo Araujo.  In
>>NYC there is Angel
>> >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican.
>>  There are people
>> >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers.
>> >
>> >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like
>>a dust mop by
>> >several Argentine name brands who without a
>>choreographed dance could
>> >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit
>>torches.  There are
>> >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or
>>elegantly.  Sometimes I
>> >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out
>>what people think
>> >is so great about them other than they speak English,
>>charge lots of
>> >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be
>>good.
>> >
>> >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder
>>dancers here.  It is
>> >all relative.  When I came here in 2000 I thought
>>each and everyone of
>> >them was wonderful, incredible.  I marveled at what I
>>thought was
>> >dancing to the music.  Now I live and dance here and
>>I can tell you,
>> >that here is no better here than there.  (Wherever
>>there is) There are
>> >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with.  Here is
>>the
>> >difference...we have more dancers, more places to
>>dance.  So it might
>> >seem like there are lots more good dancers.  It is
>>all relative.  If you
>> >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca.  I
>>lived in San
>> >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San
>>Francisco did not seem
>> >much like Mecca to me.  The percentages of good
>>dancers "should" be
>> >higher when there are more dancers....because there
>>are more dancers.
>> >
>> >Dancing with bad dancers.  I don't do it.  Not
>>knowingly.  The best
>> >dancers here male and female sit until they want to
>>dance.  When the
>> >music is right, when there is someone to dance with.
>>Once this
>> >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to
>>get me to dance to a
>> >tanda.  He told me that I was going to be his only
>>tanda of the evening
>> >and then he was going to leave.  His reason was the
>>women left him
>> >uninspired.  Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not
>>unusual here.  One
>> >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were
>>uninspired.  We
>> >were trying to find out where the men were to dance
>>with.  We ended up
>> >drinking champagne in Gricel.
>> >
>> >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is
>>not that good.    I
>> >dance with him if he is a nice guy.  It is not his
>>fault we both made a
>> >mistake.  If he is completely undanceable, at least
>>for me.  I have no
>> >choice but to end the dance.  To walk off the floor
>>here is an insult to
>> >one of the parties.  Usually it is a verguenza for
>>the man, not me.
>> >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the
>>floor.  I can do it, but
>> >I do not like to.  Not unless the man is a total
>>jerk, or he is hurting
>> >me with his horrible dancing.  How do I dance with
>>them?  I concentrate
>> >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and
>>many times I have
>> >to look at the floor because there is no lead.  Even
>>more so I do not
>> >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor.
>>Then I would really
>> >be dragged around.  If the man is from the U.S. and
>>used to dancing
>> >patterns, I have to watch his feet.  I no longer live
>>in the U.S. and
>> >therefore do not know what patterns are now being
>>taught, so I have to
>> >figure out the steps before they happen.
>> >
>> >The point is that tango is tango.
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Tango-L mailing list
>> >Tango-L at mit.edu
>> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

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-- 
Cheers,
 Ecsedy                            mailto:aron at milonga.hu