[Tango-L] helping Argetnine Tango - clarification question

Wed Jul 18 08:16:37 EDT 2007

Jake,

I agree wholeheartedly with you. 

As the conversation evolves one important point should
not be missed.  That
the initial comment posted by one of our 'listeras' if
taken seriously will
not add anything constructive to the world of
Argentine Tango.  On the
contrary it alienates and obscures the efforts of
dancers and instructors
around the world.

I do have a question to our group.  Lets for a minute,
for the sake of
conversation, accept the argument supporting national
origin as a factor
influencing artistic performance.  Would the same
apply to music playing and
composing?  

If so, than Yo-Yo Ma is a hell of an Argentine.

Cheers,
Amaury 

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
[mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:14 AM
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Origins

As for the evolution of tango and its origins (apropos
the remarks of 
Konstantine, Sergio, et al)...

I've read various arguments, each of which centers on
a different 
"pivotal" moment, emphasizing different details to
arrive at the desired 
historical climax.

Some claim that the dance came first (when treating
its urban history), 
and that the music developed afterward, to support &
encourage the dance.

Others claim that the early city-dance was an import
of the gauchos who 
moved into (or were at any rate nearby) the city
outskirts, and who 
influenced the compadritos. And also that the gauchos
had campfire 
dances, which skewed the (not from the Pampas)
habanera into the 
earliest milongas.

Others claim that the compadritos were mocking
traditional (?) dances of 
the blacks.

Others claim that the blacks were the original tango
dancers.

Then there's the whole brothel thing, which Borges
said not many 
aficionados even believed.

So how it started, and who gets the credit, is
anyone's guess. The only 
verifiable fact seems to be that some schmucks took it
to Europe, and 
that by the time it came back to Argentina, there were
lower-class 
people dancing it "old-school," and bourgeois types
learning it 
new-school Euro style.

THEREFORE...

Since the original export eventually became a
different dance (aka 
Ballroom)...
And since the re-import clashed with the pre-import,
which hardly had a 
national character...

... the only viable conclusion, however you slice it,
is that the first 
_inauthentic_ tango dancers were Argentine.

According to each other, anyway.

I hear the first exporters were idolized in Europe as
the genuine 
article though.

Spatz
DC

Konstantin Zahariev wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It seems to me that the statements below need some
significant qualifiers.
>
>
> On 7/17/07, Amaury de Siqueira
<amaurycdsf at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>> [...] Little does she know about the history of the
dance.  That the
>> Argentines on the turn of the last century
condemned Tango (and disowning
>> it)and the French welcomed with open arms.
>>     
>
>
> That is not true on its face. A more accurate
statement would be that
> the _wealthy_ or high society Argentines (i.e. the
ones that could
> shape the discussion, the ones with the voice to be
heard the loudest
> and recorded) condemned tango (before the French
accepted it). This is
> not an insignificant detail. The working class
Argentines created
> tango and obviously embraced and liked tango from
its beginning. I
> don't think they were less Argentines than the upper
class were.
>
>
>   
>> That theTango is not an
>> Argentine product, but the product of fusion
between afro-Caribbean and
>> European rhythms.
>>     
>
>
> Rhythm is only one of several parts of a musical
form though. Even so,
> pre-1920 tangos borrowed the Cuban habanera rhythm
pattern of
> dotted-eight, sixteenth, eight, eight. However this
pattern was
> imported from the slaves in Haiti, and they were
brought to Haiti from
> West Africa. I do not know what European rhythms are
referred to here
> when we talk about tango (and not vals, for
example), but in any case
> the evidence shows that any syncopated rhythm
pattern (one example is
> the habanera pattern above) that was imported in
"civilized" Europe
> ultimately came from West African and other black
people's drum lines.
>
> In fact the theory is that the habanera pattern came
as a 3-2 rhythm
> pattern (alternating or mixing 3-long and 2-long
rhythm blocks is
> something common in African drum lines) which was
something
> incomprehensible, with its implied 5/8 time
signature, to western
> Europe. So the sailors and others distorted the
3-long block and
> shortened it to fit into a 2-long block, thus
"straightening" the time
> signature into a 2/4 or 4/8 and the pattern into the
habanera pattern
> mentioned above. The other consequence was that
whenever songs had
> accents or notes on all three eights of the original
3-long block,
> this became a triplet (to fit into 2 eights).
Habaneras are filled
> with these triplets, as were very early tangos. See
even Bizet's
> Carmen - the famous habanera (which was really
Sebastien Yradier's El
> Arreglito habanera that Bizet borrowed thinking it
was a folk tune.)
>
> I don't think all this rhythm genealogy business
makes tango less
> Argentine or somehow a derivative from Europe. The
habanera rhythm
> pattern is not tango.
>
> Rhythm aside, it was Argentines who took, at first,
whatever portable
> instruments they had, later the bandoneon and piano
and violins of
> different sizes, and created the musical form, and
it was Argentines,
> mostly immigrants from Italy and Spain, and others,
who created the
> dance form in conventillos.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
>   
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