[Tango-L] Direction: Theorem #1

[Jacob Eggers]

I think that the reason people use the front cross - back cross - open
notation is because from any position, you can write down virtually any
random sequence like:

(leader - follower)
f - b
f - o
b sacada - f
o - b

And then theoretically do it. It opens up all of these amazing
possibilities, some of which are near impossible. (or impossible, e.g. you
get stuck trying to do that sequence in cross system, unless you allow for
weight changes). Of course the notation doesn't describe a unique sequence,
but that just adds to a little of the fun.

A couple here in Boston (Tova and Carlos) once did a tango twister game
using these principles. I unfortunately missed it, but heard that it was
both fun and extremely difficult.

j


On 11/27/06, Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) <spatz at tangodc.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Huck,
>
> I don't think my position here is quite understood. I already use the
> open-cross step definitions for what they're worth. I'm asking if we can
> find something with More worth. My objections to the "open step"
> definition of 8CB #1 deal with the "default to open" problem... Just
> because a step isn't crossed, I'm arguing, doesn't mean it must
> therefore be open.
>
> Also, I know the "face each other" test thing is just a test. My point
> is that it tests (and tells us about) a modified position, not the
> actual step taken by the dancers.
>
> As for Theorem #1... Any sacada (front or back) of the follower's
> sidestep, starting from parallel system (in a normal embrace), has the
> follower taking an open step and the leader in a crossed step. If the
> move commences from cross-system, both partners are taking open steps
> during the leader's front sacada.
>
> You got a Theorem #2?
>
> Jake Spatz
> DC
>
> p.s. Thanks for picking this discussion up again!
>
>
> Huck Kennedy wrote:
> > Martin Nussbaum writes:
> >
> >> Jake, what you are calling a "neither" step, ie a straight back step
> for
> >> leader in "normal" (parallel)leader steps back with right, follower
> steps
> >> forward with left, or leader steps back with left and follower matches
> with
> >> forward step with right and vice versa, is an open step, for both,
> under
> >> Gustavo/Chicho/Fabian system, (GCF ? )
> >>
> >
> >      That's three votes, counting Brian!
> >
> > Jake Spatz writes:
> >
> >
> >> 2. The "salida"
> >> Yes, you're using the Spanish term more correctly. I'm using it to mean
>
> >> 8-count basic,
> >>
> >
> >      Okay, that's what I thought.
> >
> >
> >> which I take to be entirely in parallel system,
> >>
> >
> >      Well the so-called "right basic" is, but the
> > so-called "left basic" switches back and forth
> > between the parallel and crossed.
> >
> >
> >> and will henceforth switch to the abbreviation 8CB or "basic 8"
> >> when referring to that particular thing.
> >>
> >
> >      Many thanks!
> >
> >
> >> 3. "Open steps"
> >> Well, if I have to stop, pivot, and alter the position, then what the
> >> hell kind of system is that? And what does it call those moves? And is
> >> this where that moronic two-foot colgada came from?
> >>
> >
> >      No, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough--the
> > stopping and pivoting isn't for real-life dancing--it's
> > just a test you can interrupt yourself with to do during
> > analysis in a practica to help you determine if you just
> > took an open step or a closed step.
> >
> >
> >> An "open" step should be one that brings one or both dancers into a
> >> position that is clearly described by the word "open." If my partner is
>
> >> directly in front of me, and walks directly at me while I walk directly
> >> backward, and we're in parallel system, then we're already facing each
> >> other. (8CB #1, to put it simply.)
> >>
> >
> >      As a brief aside, thanks for calling it the 8CB,
> > and now thanks for finally clearing up in my mind
> > your numbering system.  While most Argentines I've met
> > who actually teach the 8CB do number the steps that way,
> > many teachers don't.
> >
> >
> >> If I pause the step mid-weight-shift,
> >> then we have to do a colgada in order to "face each other," as that
> >> analysis would have it. Sure, _then_ it looks like an "open step" all
> >> right, but it's not the step we took, and we had to do all these extra
> >> moves to get there.
> >>
> >
> >      You've lost me.  Let me just say that for your
> > Step #1 of the 8CB, it's just an open step under the
> > GFC system.  As Brian mentioned, any step that isn't
> > a crossed step defaults to being an open step, which
> > means that when you and your partner are directly
> > facing each other, your thighs are not crossed (note
> > that hers might be, in which case she just took
> > a closed step as opposed to your open).  And as for
> > the little test I mentioned, for Step #1 of the 8CB,
> > you're already facing each other, so there's no need
> > to pivot to face each other.  Your thighs aren't crossed,
> > so you just took an open step.
> >
> >
> >> This kind of analysis distorts all data until the data
> >> matches its cute little reductive cubby-holes.
> >>
> >
> >      Well this kind of analysis is exactly what
> > Gustavo, Fabian, and Chicho use to explain what
> > they mean by an "open step" and a "crossed step."
> > I didn't make up that little test, they did (or
> > one of them did).
> >
> >
> >> And if an analysis can't tell the difference between #1 and #2 in the
> >> 8CB, I'm sorry, but it's a fairly worthless analysis.
> >>
> >> No?
> >>
> >
> >      I guess you must hate topology then, which
> > can't tell the difference between a coffee cup
> > and a doughnut.   :)   I do agree with you that
> > you need to know a lot more than open/closed to
> > notate precise choreography.
> >
> >      Actually, the whole GFC open/crossed thing
> > is very much like a topological concept, when you
> > think about it.  When you do the little test where
> > you and your partner stop for a moment and pivot on
> > both feet to directly face each other to see if
> > your thighs are open or crossed, that is very much
> > like topological deformation.
> >
> >      Now for some fun:  Let's try on some theorems
> > for size!
> >
> >      Theorem #1:  If you're in the parallel system
> > and both you and your partner take a step, either
> > you'll both be taking an open step, or you both
> > will be taking a closed step.  Likewise, if you're
> > in the crossed system and you both take a step,
> > one of you will be taking an open step while the
> > other will be taking a closed step.
> >
> > Huck
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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