[Tango-L] Social dancers

[Christopher L. Everett]

I personally think Jake's post is an unmitigated, reeking crock of manure:

TangoDC.com wrote:
> Ahem,
>
> I'm really getting tired of hearing this idolatry of the social dance. 
> Those of you who prefer it vocally, and argue for its merits here, keep 
> blaming the hotshots, the performers, the nuevo dancers for making 
> things hectic on the floor, and you continue to exalt the private 
> meditation or 3-minute tryst over the (supposed) vulgarities of public 
> display. But it's a false dichotomy, and is really skewing the 
> perspective unduly in favor of "social dancing."
>   
As opposed to anti-social dancing, I suppose?  But that's the obvious 
potshot.

What we "social" dancers most precisely object to are 2 particular sets 
of behaviors,
which have little to do with what style of tango you dance, but close 
embrace dancers
by definition can't do all that well:

-- zipping sideways into free spaces across lanes
-- taking up more than a fair share of available floor space

if you navigate well, by definition you are a social dancer, no matter
what your vocabulary or speed.
> Crowd conditions aside, I've seen more floorcraft problems caused by 
> close-embrace "social" dancers than by anyone else, including beginners. 
> The show-offs may dance twice as quickly, and with ten times the 
> vocabulary, but they rarely crash or cause others any actual grief on 
> the floor. 
False to facts.  I've seen a boleo cause a trip to the emergency room,
and an incident where if someone had 4 been inches further to the left
they would have had a pair of stilleto heels buried to the hilt in their 
back.
Next to that, I'll take slow close embrace dancers any day.
> Rather, it's the social dancers, who move more slowly (which 
> is fine per se), 
so why mention it?
> that clog up the lanes, move against traffic, tailgate 
> unnecessarily, 
What's tailgating to you?  Shall I give you that 3 feet for the backstep 
when
everyone else in the room has 8 inches to play with?
> and fail to adapt their embrace (leader's left arm 
> especially) to the conditions of the moment. 
Red Herring. 
> I can't count the number of 
> times I've been clotheslined by some "social dancer" schmuck who refused 
> to reel that sucker in on a crowded floor-- and I'm talking about 
> moments when I dance close & small, with my left arm behind my back and 
> my partner's right hand on my shoulder, to create more room for others. 
>   
Aren't you the goody two shoes?
> There I am, the nuevo guy doing his part for the team, and here comes 
> some moron with his flying fist--
I call BS.  I'm in BsAs now, in the most crowded conditions I've ever 
seen, with
space ranging from 2 feet to sometimes less than 12 inches between couples,
(which the locals will tell you is not crowded at all), and I've not 
been clotheslined,
and I've never seen it happen.  And what's more, the quality of dance 
isn't as
high as all that where I go (the best dancers have an insider's club 
here).  And
out of thousands of couples, every person not dancing in close embrace has
been an obvious non-Argentine except for exactly 3: one is a well known 
denizen
of the local milongas considered exceptionally awful (though he does 
navigate OK),
and 2 were obvious beginners trying to do the 8 count basic and front ochos,
(rather endearing they were, ther reminded me of me 3 years ago).

Backstepping non-Argentines dancing like insane weasels on amphetamines
while looking at the floor, that's a problem in the tourist milongas 
I've been
to here (Canning Monday nights is horrible for that).  I even saw a pair 
of idiots
trying to dance ballroom and Viennese Waltz steps at El Arranque last week.

The local elite dance (that I know of) at El Beso on Tuesday and 
Thursday nights
and Gricel on Monday night; you've got lots of people with their arms 
extended
nearly horizontally, and they don't have any more problems than the 
Balmaceda
look alikes with followers hanging from their thumbs.  After all, they can
see to the left, and no one is doing anything dumbass like moving into 
their blind
spot on the right.  No one dances with their left hand behind their 
backs, it's not
necessary at all, and followers need that left hand.
>  during a  p a u s e  in the music.
>   
One man's pause is another man's contratiempo.  I don't know, is the One
Right Interpretation school of musical interpretation in good odor these
days?
> Hotshot performers _look_ intimidating, but on a night of imperfect 
> floorcraft (which is 95% of nights), you're far safer next to them than 
> you are in the general mix.
>   
Not the places I've been.  Why do you think Andres Amarillo teaches a class
entitled, "How to share the floor with traditional dancers and not make 
them
hate you"?

At Gricel on Monday night, the only people having continuous navigation
problems were some obvious foreigners that lost their way to Villa Malcolm.
They eventually found their way to the middle of the floor with the rest of
the idiotas, and everyone breathed a sigh of relief.  Hotshots other 
than those? 
Not to be seen.  Crowded?  Nope, it was a wide open floor, at least 8 
feet of
room.
> This is the case in DC, at both weekly dances and the area festivals; I 
> imagine it's not too different elsewhere, provided there is even room to 
> do an ocho cortado.
>   
Ocho cortados can happen with foot movements less than 4 inches, or upwards
of 24 inches, so your statment means nothing
> Furthermore, the "stage" (which I interpret to mean: show performances 
> as well as festival performances) is NOT reserved for hotshot dancers 
> only.
You don't know much about stage dancers of tango.  See below.
>  I've seen many a "salon" performance as well. It's really quite 
> pointless to imagine that these boundaries aren't porous.
>   
Film at 11:00.  Tell us something we don't already know.
> As a dancer who likes delighting the onlooker, and one who dances many 
> styles, including nuevo (when the floor and the music are right for it), 
> I'm going to stick up for hotshots. We attract new people to the dance; 
> we give passersby something to truly enjoy; we give rising talents 
> something artful to admire and emulate. We thrill our partners, and 
> leave them brushing a little improv stardust out of their hair. We make 
> the dance Dance. 
1. A Cluestick Upside The Head (TM) for you: If it's good tango,
everyone will enjoy it.  If it's bad tango, only the ignorant
can appreciate it; for Those Who Know, it's plain revolting.
 
2. I don't know if you can dance or not, having never seen you.
But, lets see, you've been dancing tango regularly since October,
2004.  Less than 2 years.  Maybe, you were born with the balance
of a cat, the body control of Marcus Allen, Piazzola's grasp of
the music, the discipline of Charlie Parker, Baryshnikov's stamina,
and Chicho's ability to embody dance concepts, and practiced 12
hours a day.  Far more likely: you're way too impressed with
yourself and the only people you thrill are beginners and the
unknowledgeable.
> AND we put up with all these bullshit accusations, 
> coming from "social dancers" who are only out to please themselves with 
> their myopic little pseudo-love affairs on the pista, and who are too 
> self-absorbed to avoid getting in each other's way.
>   
Can you say, "Straw man?"  I know you could.
> Now, I know male social dancers who can dance with shut eyes and not hit 
> anyone. Plenty exist, and they're a pleasure to have on the floor. But 
> the bad floorcraft at milongas isn't coming from their supposed 
> "opposites"-- the nuevo kids; rather, it comes from Bad Dancers, most of 
> whom, if I dare speak the truth, belong to the "social dance only" category.
>   
Bad dancers belong mostly to the social dance group because there are more
people trying to do "social tango" than there are those who identify 
themselves
as "hotshots".  Hotshots are a minority; frankly, most of them are wannabes.

So, your statement is true, but doesn't address the problem that 
hotshots without
the skills to back up what they do, are a nightmare compared to the slow 
motion
train wreck of ordinary bad social dancers.

> Why is this the case? Welcome to the interesting part...
>
> Social dancers _deliberately_ restrict themselves to a small vocabulary 
> of moves, under the aegis of refinement and simplicity.
False to facts.  However, it would be true if you prepended the words, 
"Some but
not all" or the single word "many" to your statement.
> This is often a 
> noble-sounding excuse for the absence of skill, but that's no matter. 
>   
Ad hominem.
> What Does matter is that they can't navigate as effectively or as 
> flexibly-- because they've cut themselves off from the wider variety of 
> movements.
>   
Disproof by counterexample:

In the milongas, I use nothing but steps forward and to the side, a 
change of face, a few
ways of doing front and back ochos and a couple of turns in each 
direction.   I *don't*
have the navigation problems you claim I should be having, even when 
there's a foot
or less between couples.

When traffic is gridlocked, you inch along a few feet  at a time, and 
when it's crowded
in the milongas you keep it small and slow.  How small and slow?  Feet 
moving 4 to 6
(or less) inches at a time, couples not moving at all down the line of 
dance for 8, 16, or
24 beats at a time and then easing maybe a foot down the LOD over 4 
beats.  When you
have all the time in the world and no agenda, who needs more, and why 
should there
ever be a collision?
> Moreover, in the attempt to cast a profound spell on themselves and 
> their partner, they ignore much of what's around them. I mean other 
> dancers. And I mean other dancers sitting at tables as well as 
> non-dancers passing by for a look-see.
>   
You've only managed to give conclusive proof that followers heads are 
not made of air.

The real cause of collisions (and most other awkwardnesses) is leaders 
being unable
to give up a fixed agenda.  And that's mostly inexperience on the way to 
becoming
experience.
> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
> DaniLike Dani, I had performing experience prior to my tango kidnapping. 
> None of it was in dance. Pleasing an audience in any performance medium 
> is an act of generosity, and it's quite inseparable from pleasing one's 
> partner, as I imagine EVERY tango performer 
Key word here: imagine.  Not a word to sustain an argument on, when you 
don't
know the facts.

Most (but not all, say 90+%) tango performers in Buenos Aires have a 
background
in Jazz and Modern dance, and found work in a tango show.  They know 
absolutely
nothing about tango, don't move like tango dancers, and
> (except those bizarre choreography robot-people) 
they have to be "choreography robot-people" just to eat
> knows full well.
and so they don't knowhow to lead or follow.  Repeat, the large majority 
of tango
performers are those "bizarre choreography robot-people" and haven't a clue
about pleasing a partner, because they don't have to.

Performers who actually dance socially on a regular basis are a great 
rarity in
the tango world.  Usually, stage performers show up in the milongas when 
they
have a tour group from out of the country.  The exceptions that I know 
of are
Gavito, Oscar Mandagaran, Omar Vega, Maria Plazaola and Milena Plebs, 
though
there may certainly be more.

Omar is perceived by some as dancing mostly for himself (by those who also
admit he is a genius), which makes him no less spectacular.  Oscar, 
Milena and
Maria would no doubt vigorously disagree with you as to their priorities 
at the
milonga: they dance for personal pleasure only, as did Gavito.

Unfortunately, 5 is not a proper statistical sample.  But I'm 
comfortable with
the notion that performers at a milonga aren't there to impress anybody (not
even themselves).
>  The notion that you can only 
> please one or the other-- like the related opinion that you must put one 
> of them first-- is plumb wrong, and spoken in ignorance.
>   
That must mean, if I dance only to please my partner, I will automatically
please onlookers.  But that is false to facts.  A bailarin can dance in 
a way
that would leave you scratching your head, but a bailarina would be 
ecstatic.
Oscar Mandagaran has moments like that, with little mincing foot movements
that seem to go nowhere at all.

OTOH, I have seen plenty of performances here in Baires that pleased many
onlookers, but which even I in my less than fully knowledgeable state 
can see
as technically awful and unmusical, and I can assure you would be a 
nightmare
experience for followers who are actually good.
> So is the silly idea that pleasing a crowd, or a single bystander, is 
> egotistical. 
Another strawman.  More likely, it's the overestimate of one's capacity to
do hotshot moves and not actually cause problems that is egotistical.  
Sure,
it's not a monopoly of hotshots, but egotism and incompetence reinforce
each other.
> It is, rather, the annihilation of ego, 
<sticks tongue firmly in cheek>

So, if annihilating your ego is a Good Thing (TM), why exactly are
you trying to win this argument?
> the subordination 
> of self to an external Purpose, known, often, as entertainment, and, 
> occasionally, as art.
Bleah.  You rave on and on about being on the receiving end of the moral
superiority of social dancers, why leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth,
by resorting to it here?

Christopher

PS. Food for thought: by tself (and outside the discussion of whether Nuevo
is "authentic") authentic tango is such a large universe, that a 
lifetime of
experience might enable the very greatest dancers to embody a tenth of
it (if they even wanted to learn many styles). How much do any of us really
knowanything about tango, Jake?
> Jake Spatz
> Washington, DC
>
>
> Ron Weigel wrote:
>   
>> On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani at tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
>>> Dani
>>>
>>> Ron Weigel <tango.society at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>     
>>>       
>>  _______________________________________________
>>
>> OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?
>>
>> So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.
>>
>> The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
>> way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
>> stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)
>>
>> Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
>> social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
>> performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
>> floor. Sorry about that.
>>
>> Ron
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>>
>>   
>>     
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