From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 09:13:42 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 06:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <447802.3662.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99465.84887.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi Mario,

I know you posted this tongue-in-cheek, but rest assured.  This looked like it was a demo at the end of a class, not during a milonga.  Teachers do not wear jazz sneakers at milongas.  Don't let the background fool you.  When Susanna toured with her niece Maria, she was also promoting Maria as a teacher, so it makes sense that they demonstrate that Maria dances both roles.  And switching roles is not nuevo.

By the way, Susanna will be in Pittsburgh next weekend (Oct. 8-14) if you'd like to come for a visit.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- On Sat, 9/26/09, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 9:30 PM
> I am posting what amounts to pure
> treason. The Milonguero's last
> hope is alas...no more!? Here, two godesses of the
> Milonguero cult, introduce a new wrinkle to the dance; one
> that I, myself and many others, were hoping to never
> see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> ? ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
> ..in all seriousness I really admire both women as great
> dancers of the tango style that I aspire to and I will
> attend their Academia when I finally get to BsAs...but you
> know what? People are going to see performances like this
> and think that it's cool and actually do it and develope it
> further...ugh. Such 'nuevo' nonsense is perfect for cultures
> outside of BsAs that have an entirely different 'interest'
> in the dance.
> So called? Argentine Tango is morphing at light
> speed...Hamburg, Holland, Italy, Turkey, Russia..wow, what
> will emerge from these centers?
> I am both amazed, interested and alarmed..alarmed por mi
> querrido abrazo del tango Argentine
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=tango+milonguero&search_sort=video_view_count
> 
> 
> ? ? ? 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 09:35:27 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 06:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <447802.3662.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <447802.3662.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <635129.8848.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> 
>?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce a 
> new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many others, were hoping to 
> never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> ? ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
>

Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a performance. It's clearly 
a demonstration at the end of a class.

But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful Susanna Miller?
and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of milonguero style.

I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but this is, by far, 
the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.

Jack


      



From buraktango at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 12:19:28 2009
From: buraktango at gmail.com (burak ozkosem)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:19:28 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <635129.8848.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <447802.3662.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<635129.8848.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <35ba58f10910010919k79f8e54fi1d1df29c4beaf2ab@mail.gmail.com>

Does "dancing with same sex" new to Argentine Tango?
We all know the answer to this! If you go back to the developmental
stages of Tango, you see men dancing with other men. After a decade or
so, women were introduced to Tango. Therefore pre-milongueros danced
with each other either to practice, or to show off for status gain in
the brotherhood, or to attract women at "peringundines: a.k.a
academias".  Even later around golden age of Tango, sometimes only
best dancers could get to dance with good followers, if a leader
wasn't that good he frequently would end up trying the moves with
other guys.

Actually there was a thread in sometime last year titled "Early
Dancing in Argentina" on Tango-L, and you can find the whole
discussion from the archives, but here is my post to that thread last
year.
---------------------------------------------------
"Masculination of Women in Tango"

While i was looking for something else i noticed this paragraph from
the book called "Tango and the Political Economy of Passion" by M.
Savigliano (pages 60-61).
" No interpretations entertain the idea that women took pleasure in
dancing with one another. Instead, male authors have reasoned that
woman-with-woman tangoing must be either a preparation or a poor
substitute for tangoing with men. There are also records of few early
episodes of women dancing tango with each other in public. These
performance have been constructed as acts presented for the pleasure
of male spectators. Again, the assumption has been that a woman's
erotic interest was not in her female tango partner but in the men who
gazed at the spectacle.Thus, women's eroticism is constituted as
restricted to a heterosexual money economy [...]. The milongueras
eroticism circulated in a strictly limited way, confined to
illegitimate encounters marked by heterosexism and class."

Another interesting note from E.H. Puccia's book " El Buenos Aires de
An. Villoldo 1860-1919", page 155) newspaper ["El Nacional"
27.01.1881] note about female leaders in the early years of Argentine
Tango  talks about a woman called Carlota Gonzalez who lives in La
Boca at Suarez No 81, she was well known and respected dancer with
masculine energy and her knife...

In Historia del tango, Leon Benaros notes that Diccionario historico
argentino defines  the academies (a.k.a peringundines) as the venues
dancing was between men only.

Uruguayan Historian J.C Puppo in his book, Ese mundo del bajo, pages
29-30, informs us about "Cafe Zunino" in Montevideo, all regulars were
men, also well known tango venue with many popular tango musicians and
dancers visits ( i.e.Orquesta de Arolas played at Cafe Zunino in
1919). Cafe Zunino was a gay-cafe of the time where homosexuals call
it "Conventillo Rosado". Some of the popular dancers were nicknamed
with feminine meanings "El Yesero", "La Lora", "La Loca" Garcia, "La
Vieja".

Tango was a perfect match for "vida mala" those days, Lidia Ferrari
claims that tango is innocent and it shouldn't be labeled, she says
whoever wants to integrate their fantasies into tango, they are the
responsible ones of the negative labeling.

Body-Gender issues in Argentine Tango is a very interesting subject
which remains left behind by "official"  tango history.


Burak
Chicago






On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
>>
>>?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce a
>> new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many others, were hoping to
>> never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
>> ? ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
>>
>
> Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a performance. It's clearly
> a demonstration at the end of a class.
>
> But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful Susanna Miller
> and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of milonguero style.
>
> I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but this is, by far,
> the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From rontango at rocketmail.com  Thu Oct  1 12:42:18 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 09:42:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
Message-ID: <363440.81118.qm@web111808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I agree this is not nuevo milonguero. It is 2 women dancing together and changing roles. Ignoring that, it otherwise looks like tango milonguero, the tango danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, same sex couples dancing together are extremely rare in the over 100 traditional milongas in Buenos Aires. It is not the norm in traditional tango culture, where a man leads and a woman follows. However, there are a few non-traditional milongas such as La Marshall where same sex couples or role reversal is commonplace.?These milongas are clearly labeled or identified in advertising as non-traditional in one sense or another.   

As for nuevo milonguero, it is a label used to describe the insertion of nuevo elements such as volcadas and colgadas into tango milonguero, i.e., the use of these elements in a close embrace. It is a term that is used for marketing purposes, to attract people to tango danced in close embrace who would otherwise not be interested. Nuevo elements are not part of the tango milonguero danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.

Many will say that nuevo elements are derived from traditional tango. A volcada is a 'fall'. Movements such as a calesita with a tilt (used rarely in Bs As milonga), sometimes pointed to as the 'origin' of the volcada, are not volcadas; the women does not fall from her axis. A milonguero does not pull or push a woman off her axis. Bad dancers might. The only colgadas I have seen in Buenos Aires milongas are the jewelry around women's necks. As for 'linear', 'circular' and whatever direction boleos and ganchos and the wrapping of legs around body parts that are best left unwrapped, they just don't occur in Bs As milongas. They violate other dancers' space. That is contrary to milonga codes.

Ron
 

--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 1:35 PM
> > From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> > 
> >?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce
> a 
> > new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many
> others, were hoping to 
> > never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> > ? ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
> >
> 
> Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a
> performance. It's clearly 
> a demonstration at the end of a class.
> 
> But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful
> Susanna Miller?
> and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of
> milonguero style.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but
> this is, by far, 
> the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.
> 
> Jack




      


From keith at totango.net  Thu Oct  1 14:35:05 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Alberto Podesta by Beatriz Dujovne
Message-ID: <61757.65.93.193.24.1254422105.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>

The long version of Beatriz's interesting portrait of the living legend -
with lyrics, translations (thanks Jake) and audio sample is now on
http://ToTANGO.net.

From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Thu Oct  1 14:36:06 2009
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:36:06 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <363440.81118.qm@web111808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <363440.81118.qm@web111808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bc7e48270910011136m59183619mcd41fd51661c0201@mail.gmail.com>

Huh, I must've been to another BsAs in June and July. And maybe you
should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've seen him
leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of women. I
actually have a picture of that. Good dancers use whatever they can to
make the dance fun. The difference between them and the bad dancers is
they will only lead the moves that can be done in the available space
and both themselves an their partners can actually execute it.

Maybe some people on tango-l could try spending less time arguing
about tango and more time actually dancing. Just a thought.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin at bostonphotographs.com



On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, RonTango <rontango at rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Nuevo elements are not part of the tango milonguero danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
>
> A milonguero does not pull or push a woman off her axis. Bad dancers might. The only colgadas I have seen in Buenos Aires milongas are the jewelry around women's necks. As for 'linear', 'circular' and whatever direction boleos and ganchos and the wrapping of legs around body parts that are best left unwrapped, they just don't occur in Bs As milongas.


From tango.society at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 23:54:16 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:54:16 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
Message-ID: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>

Yahoo has been holding 'rontango' hostage all day due to spam
suspicion, so I'm posting a reply from another account

--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Sorin Varzaru <tango at bostonphotographs.com> wrote:

> Huh, I must've been to another BsAs
> in June and July. And maybe you
> should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've
> seen him
> leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of
> women. I
> actually have a picture of that.

I'm assuming this was a demo. I've seen Tete dance in several milongas
in both Buenos Aires and the US, and I didn't see him switch roles or
lead off axis movements.

I got curious about this statement because I've heard it before a few
times, I think always from people who do not know appear to know tango
milonguero. Last night I reviewed about a dozen Tete & Silvia videos.
One thing that is apparent is that if you concentrate on Silvia's
axis, it is always apilado. For example, look closely at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIne2fqkcwM

In fact, it is remarkable how in video after video, Silvia's axis
stays in this apilado position throughout the dance. The only
exception I saw was in the following video, where Tete puts Silvia
into an off-axis forward lean about 3 or 4 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3415HufIU4

This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour or
so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
position. It is  not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
and step forward.


> Good dancers use whatever
> they can to
> make the dance fun. The difference between them and the bad
> dancers is
> they will only lead the moves that can be done in the
> available space
> and both themselves an their partners can actually execute
> it.

Fun is good. But doing 'whatever' at some point becomes a different
dance that is no longer tango. A dance isn't 'tango' just because you
call it 'tango'. The core of tango is in the connection between man
and woman in the embrace, connected to tango music, not the swinging
of bodies off axis and thrashing about of limbs to electronic music
with a bandoneon.

Ron

From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:08:20 2009
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:08:20 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210910031708t4ffbbb2axa55d2ec2a0df68f0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Tango Society of Central Illinois <
tango.society at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yahoo has been holding 'rontango' hostage all day due to spam
> suspicion, so I'm posting a reply from another account
>
> --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Sorin Varzaru <tango at bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
>
> > Huh, I must've been to another BsAs
> > in June and July. And maybe you
> > should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've
> > seen him
> > leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of
> > women. I
> > actually have a picture of that.
>
> I'm assuming this was a demo. I've seen Tete dance in several milongas
> in both Buenos Aires and the US, and I didn't see him switch roles or
> lead off axis movements.
>
>
Sorin ,
I think I know what you are talking about, as I have seen (and have been the
recipient of) it a number of times while in BsAs. I have never seen Tete
changing roles within the dance.
What Tete *will *occasionally do (and what I suspect you were witnessing) is
change the arm positions. With him, everything comes from the chest -
*his*chest. The position of his arms is irrelevant - he can have his
right arm or
his left across the lady's back - it doesn't matter, as it in no way affects
the lead.

abrazos
-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct  4 14:13:32 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 20:13:32 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>


> This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
> and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour or
> so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
> is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
> position. It is  not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
> off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
> and step forward.
>   
IMHO It is the same thing technically. The difference is only in the 
amount (which I believe is the question of personal preference = style).

I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of 
dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could 
be identified without doubt just by looking.

The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
- a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a method of 
teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of 
sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which probably 
never existed in a pure form in the first place)
- a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means there 
is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to 
tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves and 
not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher, 
style, area, community etc.)
- goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and 
smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every 
tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
- another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body 
awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make 
connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do 
not understand it yet

In simple terms: using the scientific method to analyse, teach or 
'build' (improvise) tango. It is the result of the same process that 
happened to all folklore dances around the world which required a 
teacher (vs. was learned in its natural environment by imitation only).

There are thousands of pages of research on the subject. If you use the 
results on tango, it yields only this: tango as it was danced does not 
exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions, 
locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced 
by other forms.

The present tango has teachers, instead of self-teaching societies, 
present tango has milongas organized by a subculture of dancers for a 
subculture of dancers, instead of mainstream business to the general 
population, present tango has choreographed shows, which did not exist 
before, present tango is mostly danced by non-porteno people, outside 
BsAs/Montevideo barrios, mostly whom are upper middle class 
intellectuals with university degrees, openness to the world, sometimes 
speaking several languages, vs. the uneducated porteno lower class 
workers, later on mostly middle class non-intellectual professionals 
with still a lot less education, present tango is danced by people 
conditioned for the present day perception of personal freedom, goals, 
rights, way of life, social rules, sexual roles, vs. something that 
existed quite a few large political, social, technical and cultural 
revolutions before.

Face it: what is NOT 'nuevo' is really just an attempt to imitated the 
form of a dance that was danced a very long time ago in a different era. 
A historical dance. It is the same thing as if you would try to recreate 
the 80s style in pop. The 80s pop is still pop, the same way 2009's 
popular music is called pop. Are the two the same? Surely not. Are they 
called the same? Most definitely yes. Are the former still current? No, 
unless you specifically play it at a retro-party. (We still have balls 
where we dance a late 18th century dance - waltz - onto late 19th/early 
20th century music, in usually mid-20th century clothing, but those are 
not your everyday life are they?) Of course some forms of music do 
change so much that they get a new name after a certain time, but that's 
not the issue here.

If the time distance in this example is not 'big' enough, then take 
classical styles. There are huge differences between styles: baroque 
spanned two hundred years. Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared 
to Monteverdi, but it is still the same style. (NB: the actual naming of 
'baroque' style in music was invented almost 50 years AFTER tango 
appeared, and was not generally used until the later era of the golden 
age of tango...so, names do not mean anything)

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4479 (20091004) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 14:35:28 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:35:28 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370910041135t10d4e1c6s16d4b0af452e9041@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

> I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
> dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could
> be identified without doubt just by looking.
>
> The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
> - a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a method of
> teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of
> sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which probably
> never existed in a pure form in the first place)
> - a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means there
> is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to
> tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves and
> not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher,
> style, area, community etc.)
> - goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
> smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every
> tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
> - another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
> awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
> connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do
> not understand it yet
>
>
        What about cargo pants?  And you didn't say anything about having to
wear designer sneakers with suede glued to the bottoms of them.

Huck

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  4 15:05:00 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:05:00 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <011501ca4525$9306e6d0$b914b470$@net>

?ron, you wrote:
>>>
I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of 
dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could 
be identified without doubt just by looking...
The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
- a structured way of building up your dancing...
- a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance...
- goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and 
smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every 
tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves...
- another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body 
awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make 
connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do 
not understand it yet...
...tango as it was danced does not 
exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions, 
locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced 
by other forms...
...Face it: what is NOT 'nuevo' is really just an attempt to imitated the 
form of a dance that was danced a very long time ago in a different era. 
A historical dance. It is the same thing as if you would try to recreate 
the 80s style in pop...
 There are huge differences between [classical] styles: baroque 
spanned two hundred years. Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared 
to Monteverdi, but it is still the same style...
<<<
Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
savor.  Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
"power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"





From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 16:14:32 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:14:32 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <011501ca4525$9306e6d0$b914b470$@net>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu> <011501ca4525$9306e6d0$b914b470$@net>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370910041314n72452c43t7f8a7eb49b12df66@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net>wrote:

> ?ron, you wrote:
> >>>
>  > > > Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared to Monteverdi, but it is
> still the same style...
> <<<
> Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
> savor.  Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
> "power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!
>

      Other than a complete (and common) misuse of the word "literally," it
was indeed a very interesting comparison.

Huck

From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct  4 16:47:06 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?UTF-8?B?RWNzZWR5IMOBcm9u?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:47:06 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370910041314n72452c43t7f8a7eb49b12df66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
	<011501ca4525$9306e6d0$b914b470$@net>
	<ecf43f370910041314n72452c43t7f8a7eb49b12df66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC909CA.4060203@milonga.hu>

Thank you for correcting it. It was probably a Hunglicism :)

The most likely reason is that I spent only ten days of my life in an 
English speaking country.
Also helps when your parents speak the language and it is the only way 
they talk to you while you grow up, which in my case was not a given...

The 'a' was also unnecessary in the quoted sentence. Upon second reading 
I realized that I made quite a few mistakes in the text, but I didn't 
really mean to write a university paper either.

I guess most people still understood what I wanted to communicate.

Aron
Budapest, Hungary


Huck Kennedy ?rta:
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net>wrote:
>
>   
>> ?ron, you wrote:
>>     
>>  > > > Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared to Monteverdi, but it is
>> still the same style...
>> <<<
>> Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
>> savor.  Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
>> "power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!
>>
>>     
>
>       Other than a complete (and common) misuse of the word "literally," it
> was indeed a very interesting comparison.
>
> Huck
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>   


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct  4 17:00:50 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?UTF-8?B?RWNzZWR5IMOBcm9u?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:00:50 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370910041135t10d4e1c6s16d4b0af452e9041@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
	<ecf43f370910041135t10d4e1c6s16d4b0af452e9041@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC90D02.1030300@milonga.hu>


>         What about cargo pants?  And you didn't say anything about having to
> wear designer sneakers with suede glued to the bottoms of them.
>   
What do cargo pants have to do with dancing? I mean fashions changed 
quite a bit during the last 100+ years of tango and I would say that if 
contemporary people normally go out partying in cargo pants nowadays, 
then going out to tango in cargo pants would just imply that they are 
trying to make tango a part of their 'daily routine' and not some kind 
of an atavism like the fancy balls or ballroom competitions lamely 
mimicing the parties of the nobility in the past (in the US: mimicing 
the partying of rich families of the past who in turn had been mimicing 
the partying of European nobility).

Neither I, nor my friends wear a tuxedo or even a fancy striped suit 
when they go out to have fun (dancing or not). They rather wear jeans or 
cargo pants. To me that means tango - by itself - doesn't come with a 
dress code. Of course, you can organize a fancy milonga, but that will 
be a 'special event'. In our community we have several people who don't 
even have a suit or even a dinner jacket. They would certainly feel 
stupid if they'd need to buy one to dance tango.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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http://www.eset.com



From vytis at hotmail.com  Sun Oct  4 17:36:36 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:36:36 +1100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?From:_Ecsedy_=C1ron_Re:_=5BTango-L=5D_Nuevo_Milonguero?=
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS185208A849C62FE9444DDFAED00@phx.gbl>

What a delightful read Aron on what is tango:

>tango as it was danced does not 
>exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions, 
>locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced 
>by other forms.


So why do so many people make a pilgrimage to BsAs?

cheers 

From keith at totango.net  Sun Oct  4 18:01:59 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
Message-ID: <60632.64.229.162.105.1254693719.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

This thread provokes me to say:

I read people I respect equally seemingly on one side or another of a
"divide." How can this be?

Well, fortunately, we all have our own relationships and/or opinions.

So we can see that there is no problem - other than semantics or
individual terms of reference, probably.

I just want to say that I personally feel so happy - and have for years -
that tango dancers who's first language is not English just do it - send
their thoughts to this forum.

I hope they are never discouraged from doing so.

I believe English-speaking people should work hard to read thoughtful
nuances (as opposed to "literal" meanings) into such posts. And thread
accordingly.

Let's read and write as we dance - not as we "read" in our own language
with judgement and assurance.

:-)









From macfroggy at aol.com  Sun Oct  4 18:12:27 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 18:12:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
Message-ID: <8CC1356E47C5FB8-3CEC-34DE3@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com>

No, but in tradition-minded
BsAs, dressing in "elegant sport" (no jeans, shorts, cargo pants, or
athletic shoes), is in respect to the tango. Normally gentlemen wear
nice slacks with a button shirt. Jackets or tuxedos are not necessary.



cherie

http://tangocherie.blogspot.com

From robinctara at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 18:21:56 2009
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:21:56 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Misc:Missing Magic
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860910041521t1e72bfddu46fec6bf8936de8@mail.gmail.com>

You know, I danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires, New York, Montreal, San
Francisco, Boston and London beginning 1993.
I missed Berlin, the other hotbed of tango at the time - big mistake, I'm
afraid.

There was a magic then that has been missing for me in today's milongas.

Things began to change drastically in the milongas of Buenos Aires around
the time of the crash. (2001/2002)

All of a sudden the regulars began staying away from the salons. They just
couldn't justify spending 5 pesos on something as frivolous as the milonga.
They needed to eat. The milongas began to suffer from lower attendance and
raised prices. The Cro Magnon disaster closed dance venues all over the
inner city. On the other hand, it became much cheaper for tourists to visit
Buenos Aires. So in about 2 years time, the balance of tourists to locals in
the dance halls reversed completely.

The milongas feel so different to me these days. Sitting in a Buenos Aires
milonga on a Friday night, I see the group from Japan at one of the primo
back tables - they don't dance tango yet, but they're ordering dinner! From
there to the right sit a table of local (mostly) women, a group of men who
really have been in the milongs for years, but rarely get up to dance. The
there are the group from some European capital, a bunch of older folks from
the midwest, a table of local guys who don't dance very well, a group of
local women who don't dance very well. Lurking around the edges, men who
can't catch anybody's eye and have decided to prey on the unsuspecting and
longing to dance, middle aged women from the US. It just lacks some sort of
mystery.

Is it all because I see it more clearly now? Was it always this way and I
was too enraptured to notice? No, I'm sure it was more full of the promise
of adventure back then.

Oh, I'm just rambling

Interested in what others think







-- 
Robin Tara

http://www.taratangoshoes.com
http://www.tangotique.com

From brick at fastpack.com  Sun Oct  4 18:25:27 2009
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:25:27 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango as it is danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires...
Message-ID: <ca2c2380910041525y43fe4e5exe159ae16935a6106@mail.gmail.com>

> it otherwise looks like tango milonguero, the tango danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.<

After a couple of months now of dancing in Buenos Aires, I'm now
finding comments like this to be almost absurd.

There is simply so much tango here that almost any variation of style,
music, embrace, codigos, etc can be found "in the milongas of Buenos
Aires."

Even narrowing it down to specifying the "downtown" milongas doesn't
limit things that much.

I've sometimes noticed that however "it" is done in the speakers
"home" milonga, is often how he thinks tango is done, or at least
should be done, everywhere. If it is done differently at the milonga
down the street, he might say "that is not tango." Yet the better
dancers down here don't seem to fret about whether what they do is
tango: they just dance, and they dance creatively and musically and
well.

And if you been here on a 2 week tango tour, I'm sorry, you don't have
a clue. There is simply too much going on here to have anything but a
taste in such a short time. Two weeks is all many of us can get away
for, but at best you are seeing the "Disneyland" version. Two weeks is
better than nothing, but don't base your opinions of what BsAs tango
is on such a short glimpse of this very diverse culture.

After a couple of months, I'm just now beginning to get a feel for the
place, and I recognize that there is a lot more going on here than
I've had a chance to experience, and I know I don't have a very
complete picture either. I'm sad I'm leaving this week.

I also recognize that some people have a lot invested in their own
personal version of "The Tango Myth." Go ahead and believe what you
want to believe, but please don't preach to us about how things are in
Buenos Aires, unless of course you live here, even then it might be
better to tell us how they do it in "your" milonga, not "how it is
done in Buenos Aires."

Once again I'd like to thank the list members who live in Buenos Aires
who were so kind to introduce me to 3 very different aspects of tango
here: Deby Novitz for the introduction at Grisel, Cheri Magnus (and
Rubin)  for the wonderful hosptility at Los Consagrados, and Dierdre
Black for the numerous places we've been. They are are all wonderful
people. If you visit here you would do well to contact them. They all
offer help to visitors, from lodging and lessons, to simple advice or
a seat at a table.

Have a great evening everyone, as I am going to, before I have to say
"Adios Buenos Aires."

From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Sun Oct  4 19:00:05 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:00:05 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo".
Message-ID: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>

Aron, I have a question about "nuevo". 
When  you dance at milongas and the majority of the people are not dancing 
nuevo, do  you stop and change directions and take up a great deal of space? 
If this is  what you do, how do you feel about not following traditional 
tango etiquette  rules?
I'm asking you this question because I would really like an honest  answer. 
I'm not against tango nuevo, it's just that I see nuevo dancers have a  
rather selfish approach to space and line of dance and they don't seem to care  
or have respect for others on the dance floor.
Thanks,
David  


From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  4 20:16:15 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why BA?
Message-ID: <799064.21580.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well, let's see....where to begin?? First of all, as a professional ballet/contemporary dancer, for a large portion of my life, I appreciate that dance needs to be a "lively art" and therefore, continually evolving, changing and reflecting, to a large extent, cultural/era specificities(such as: "cargo pants" vs "tango suits", etc.).....I'm definitely down with that concept!? Yet, today, we are still able to enjoy the great, classical ballets, frozen in time, as well as the most contemporary and avant garde ones and they are all called "ballet".? ? Supposedly, the Finnish tango is "frozen" in the tango of the twenties and they have no interest in evolving their style.?Is this a more "real tango" because it hasn't changed, for almost 100 years? Or is "it" more from contemporary pilgrims/portenos, living in BA, evolving the dance, daily; sometimes(depending), dancing tango in cargo pants, flip flops and to Elvis Presley, others, in the little black
 dress, high heels
and to Troilo??Who's to say?  Both of these views of tango(plus the entire continuum between)are valid, here and worth considering, in this discussion, I feel. 

Perhaps, we are asking the wrong questions.?Perhaps, tango afficionados are missing the point and?think they only come to BA to dance "the real, classic Argentine tango", to find that, instead, there is a lively art, here, changing with the times/fashions/artists, like any other viable art will do and maybe, looking for the "real tango", in BA, is like trying to know the sound of one hand clapping. Instead, after living here for three, amazing years, I have found that the tango is sooo much more than just a dance(or specific "style", thereof)...the actual dance appears to be merely the "tip of the tango iceberg", if you will.  Instead, you will find the "real tango" in the blood of the rioplatense(Uruguayos, tambien/Montevideo)people, being expressed daily, in their attitudes, customs, desires, food, wine, humor, rhythms of life(even tho they don't dance a lick), as well as in the glorious, hothouse world
of musicians, dancers, singers, composers, of the tango classico.? The dance does not exist in an artistic vacuum but rather, in the context of this culture and that is what, in the end, I believe people come here, for...to "feel the tango" context, rather than determine a "perfect style".? In fact the more you are here, the more open that definition becomes.  If there IS any one, consistent element that continues to run through all these discussions, though, it's the "connection" of tango that people seek, within themselves and each other and BA provides that constant feeling of connection, with your family, neighbors, dance buds and "the BA life", from whence this seductive dance comes.? There's nothing like "swimming in the BA soup for awhile" just to make your tango more juicy, soulful and connected, no matter what style you prefer.?Also, not just attending classes and milongas, while here but going to theatre, opera, poetry readings, tango
 music/singer performances(no dancing), art/photog shows, will make your tango dancing better.....
not necessarily more classic, flashier, better technically or even more nuevo(2-3 weeks simply isn't enough to accomplish that, even with intensives)but more importantly, you can go away with "many more miles" and a more organic center/perspective that can't be replicated anywhere else.? You can experience directly, the cultural position that the dance of tango inhabits, in this warm, sensual city/country(and Uruguay, btw). Then, your personal style merely becomes the "icing on your tango cake".

Besos y abrazos,  Dierdre N. Black

ps    Thanks, Brick, for such an articulate, BA visitor's statement, your thanks to your "BA crew" of helpful tangueras and for being open to all that the BA tango world has to offer. Looking forward to the next time.....always more to enjoy!! Venga y Bailamos, tangueros!!   dnb
? ? ? ? 







      


From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct  4 20:18:57 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 02:18:57 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron's answers about nuevo for those who asked #1
In-Reply-To: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
References: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AC93B71.60307@milonga.hu>

--Tangocherie asked:

'No, but in tradition-minded BsAs, dressing in "elegant sport" (no
jeans, shorts, cargo pants, or athletic shoes), is in respect to the
tango. Normally gentlemen wear nice slacks with a button shirt. Jackets
or tuxedos are not necessary.'

I've been to BsAs several times. For some portenos, at SOME milongas it
is still part of the tradition. For some (and there is a generational
gap there) isn't. Actually, the whole jeans/cargo pant stuff with the
suede lining ORIGINATES in BsAs, along with the Puma shoes, branded
T-shirts...this is the way (young) people dress in the streets. The only
difference is that I found a lot better designed (and a lot cheaper)
casual fashion there then anywhere in Europe.

--Vince asked:

So why do so many people make a pilgrimage to BsAs?

Because the dance is, erroneously, called Tango Argentino outside Latin
America, so people think that they can get the real stuff only there. Of
course it helps a LOT to go there, experience the continuation of the
culture that gave birth to tango, especially if you come from a very
different one, but for most people this is not the REASON why people go.

As I've said: I know what I'm saying, but tango, especially the tango we
are talking about here on a list filled with dancers not living in
Buenos Aires, is a phenomenon that is driven by people outside
Argentina. We might like the culture (I do), but we are NOT of that
culture. Nevertheless, our interest, our communities, our milongas
OUTSIDE Argentina, the teachers who visit us for our euros, dollars and
yens are those which define tango today - even inside Argentina, even if
there are still many locals learning tango. And this is not even
something new. Tango itself was made by a mixture of ethnicities,
cultures within Argentina, but became mainstream by massive external
influence in the past and then revived and kept alive by massive
external influence. So what you say is just strengthening my example:
BsAs is a museum of tango. Of course it is NOT only a museum, as the
most popular dancers are still Argentines. But the part you tried to
imply very much is. But the actual 'content' of tango in general is
already changing. Even 'traditional milongueros' began to use the ideas
generated by nuevo, since nuevo is an inclusive term: using nuevo you
can describe any style of tango.


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/


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From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct  4 20:19:51 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 02:19:51 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo".
In-Reply-To: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
References: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AC93BA7.5020904@milonga.hu>

--HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote:
 > When  you dance at milongas and the majority of the people are not 
dancing
 > nuevo, do  you stop and change directions and take up a great deal of 
space?

No. This came up on Tango-L in last decade over hundred times over: the
nuevo method enables you to teach the technical part very fast, but you
can't teach adults to learn how to pay attention. Most Europeans and
even more in the US are used to large spaces, used to excessive personal
freedoms, which makes most of them simply unaware that in this situation
they must find a compromise: they have to restrict their own freedom to
enable the fair distribution of resources (space) available. This also
applies to the way they treat leading-following, their partners.

In short: bad dancing is not nuevo. Nuevo is not bad dancing. While
someone dancing nuevo is more likely to be young, ambitous, more keen on
the technical part than the other half, open and therefore more
extroverted, maybe even eccentric, thus they may stand our more than the
tradition loving who tends to be more introverted, rule-abiding, simply:
conservative. There are stupendously bad dancers in much larger numbers
among the traditionals according to my experiences, but you do not need
to be a statistician to see that perception is cheating you: bad nuevo
dancers are like lighthouses, bad traditional dancers are simply ignored
or avoided by the more knowledgeable dancers within the community, or
they happily find each other.

 > If this is  what you do, how do you feel about not following traditional
 > tango etiquette  rules?
 > I'm asking you this question because I would really like an honest  
answer.
 > I'm not against tango nuevo, it's just that I see nuevo dancers have a 
 > rather selfish approach to space and line of dance and they don't 
seem to care 
 > or have respect for others on the dance floor.
 >  
I don't believe in etiquette as such. Most of the codigos are as natural
as tango itself. They are simply based on the very simple fact of a
large number of people trying to cope with the given situation, in a
given environment. They simply had a lot of time to experiment with what
works best. I look at the so called etiquette as a guideline to avoid
problems. If you know the reasons behind the rules, you will know how to
avoid the problems they were devised to solve (and bend the rules
accordingly).

As for the line of dance: as a teacher I usually have my students dance
in a space less than squaremeter (a bit more than a squareyard) per
couple right during the first two classes. It is not easy for them to
improvise, change direction, mark/follow, on music, while in a confined
space, but my experience is that it works, people enjoy it, and also if
you allow beginners to disregard available space while they learn the
basics, it will simply fail to become a part of their routine. It is
infinitely harder to learn it later.

Obviously, these problems are there with the traditionally oriented
dancers as well. So again: it is not nuevo. It is bad dancing. Only
nuevo dancers usually do have the technical capabilities much earlier in
their learning process to cause problems, and therefore they tend to
cause a lot more visible problems for other dancers if the teacher
failed to make them aware them.

I hope I could answer all you questions to your satisfaction.

Best wishes,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct  4 22:04:41 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 02:04:41 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron's answers
Message-ID: <SNT115-W42D7FF33014E431C14E0DC97CF0@phx.gbl>


Ecsedy you say "Because the dance is, erroneously, called Tango Argentino outside LatinAmerica, "
 
1 - *** No error there (IMO) Tango Argentino is different from the other styles that were created outside of Argentina (Uruguay) (Ballroom tango,
(A variation of International tango), International (European) Tango and Finish Tango (a variation of International Tango as well). So it is necessary to say Argentine Tango to know what we are talking about. For most people to say Tango is enough, as we know that Tango is Argentine Tango.
 
2 - *** What is danced outside of Argentina as "Argentine Tango" reflects the "real A. Tango" as taught abroad by both Argentines and foreign instructors.
A tango style that is preserved by the travelers to Argentina as well.
 
Ecsedy you also say "As I've said: I know what I'm saying, but tango, especially the tango weare talking about here on a list filled with dancers not living inBuenos Aires, is a phenomenon that is driven by people outsideArgentina."
 
*** Not true, everything that is happening in tango abroad is more or less a reflection of what is happening in Argentina, driven by the many visitors to all sort of workshops in B.A. and by the Itinerant or local Argentine instructors.  
 
Even the most popular styles of A.T. are due to the fact that Argentine Instructors travel teaching those particular styles. Tete, Susana Miller, Cacho Dante: Milonguero Style, Chicho, Gustavo, Fabian and many others: Nuevo Tango, all the others: Traditional Argentine tango. As you also say,"the teachers who visit us for our euros, dollars andyens are those which define tango today "
 
 *** yes no doubt but they reflect  some of the different styles that are danced in B.A.
 
You proceed "Tango itself was made by a mixture of ethnicities,cultures within Argentina, but became mainstream by massive externalinfluence in the past and then revived and kept alive by massiveexternal influence."
 
*** Tango was born in Argentina, taken to Europe and the USA by Argentines that taught what was being danced in B.A. 
 
***Tango was popular in Argentina at the same time as ballroom dancing was popular in the USA. There were as many big Orquestas tipicas as big band in the USA.  Then in the 60s. and 70s. both modalities of dancing became less popular to revive in the 80s. 
 
 The fact that Tango as well as ballroom dancing became popular as well in Europe is a plus but I doubt that Tango, Swing, rumba, etc, are kept alive only due to external influences. As Deidre Black explained very well tango reflects our way of living as well as jazz reflects the North American culture.
 
You also say "BsAs is a museum of tango"
 
Nothing more apart from the truth, B.A. likes to preserve the Traditional Tango style as a valuable cultural object. Idea reinforced by UNESCO'S RECENT SELECTION. But is a cauldron of creation and experimentation as well. 
 
This gives as result many innovations that are taken abroad both by Argentines and visitors.
 
"using nuevo youcan describe any style of tango."
 
*** Nuevo is a different style of A. Tango it does not describe Traditional or Milonguero styles for instance, as they are different in embrace, technique,and choreography.
 
Best regards, Sergio
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct  4 22:40:47 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 02:40:47 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Ask Aron Ecsedy
Message-ID: <SNT115-W425D01C84293F11A270D3697CF0@phx.gbl>



Aron you say "I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could be identified without doubt just by looking."
 
*** Nuevo is a distinct tango style and easily identified by looking.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxuLvHF2ZhI
 
In this example Chicho starts with back volcadas wich he repeats many times, he has a very open embrace, uses non traditional tango music, front volcadas, off axis, piernadas, etc, etc.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c
 
This is an example of Traditional Tango (Villa Urquiza) here the music is traditional tango, the embrace is variable mostly close, it has a soltada and some steps in shadow position (tango al reves).
 
It is very easy to distinguish both styles
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXT38rF0wZ0&feature=PlayList&p=A7403507F2664631&index=0&playnext=1
 
Another example of Traditional tango, by osvaldo Zotto and Lorena.
 
Embrace, paraadas, dibujos, boleos, amagues, sacadas, etc, etc, all typical moves of this style.
 
Best regards,  Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/

From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  4 23:26:26 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] aron's answers
Message-ID: <783070.77458.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As stated before, tango dancing is always evolving in BA(rather than being a "museum" piece)as it does in all the world and since most(not all)of the best teachers, teaching in or outside of Rio de la Plata, 
are still of Argentinian/Uruguayan extraction AND traveling the wide world, spreading "the gospel of tango", most of the year, they can get a little disconnected from Mi BA Querido.? Nonetheless, almost all still maintain a residence, year-round, in the Rio Plata area, to which they make their personal, bi or yearly, spring/summer pilgrimages, to "drink from the fuentes del tango" and recharge their ba batteries, for another year of teaching tango dancing "outside the zone".? I have no doubt that many tango dancers, from all over the world are maybe better, technically and creatively than your average milonguero, since they study it, obsessively, every day, in a "hothouse" environment with these fabulous teachers.....like a lovely orchid, in a greenhouse, somewhere. But even these maestros need some serious BA milonga time, regularly. 

What makes the dancing, here, so special, is that it IS just a normal part of your average, Joe Schmo's BA day....often ducking into a milonga just because he happened to be caught in the rain on that street and had a couple of hours to kill...no more, no less. Nothing exotic......
.......just organic.  The tango serves a cultural function, here, now, as always.  A dance of the streets, for all the classes, to forget/express their troubles, for a few tandas...and enjoy some good wine/company and life, for a moment, before returning to "reality".

It's wonderful to have all the other more exotic bloodstreams of world tango feeding back into this delta full of brilliant, sophisticated 
teachers, who bring that new blood home to BA, revivifying it, again and 
again!?But these are the cities(BA/Montevideo)that give us the profound cultural context from which all this magic refertilization/tango cycle of life, springs!!  The fertile waters, soul of the Rio de la Plata. 

dnb





      


From stermitz at tango.org  Sun Oct  4 23:54:16 2009
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:54:16 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
In-Reply-To: <4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
References: <cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC8E5CC.7030006@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <B7D5918A-D40A-43A8-A4C7-135D5FAC7C93@tango.org>

When I was learning tango in the mid-1990s, nuevo clearly referred to  
the work of Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho. Nuevo meant analysis and  
exploration. I know that these days some people use nuevo to mean a  
style (or even a music?... although that doesn't make any sense to at  
all). To me "style" is something you put on top of tango, and is a  
choice, as in choice of embrace, choice of figures, choice of  
appearance.

If we're inventing, we could make up other names: Mis-tango, Meh- 
tango, Neo-Tango, and even Non-tango.

I really liked Ecsedy's comment about Nuevo, reminding us that Nuevo  
is NOT a style or form of dancing. I agree with him that Nuevo is more  
appropriate to refer to a method of analysis. This restricted  
definition of nuevo FREES US UP to view tango as multi-dimensional.  
Analysis, technique and style are different dimensions.

In other words, to me:
  - tango (the essence) is about feeling, intuition, musicality,  
energy, dynamics, relationship and culture.
  - steps are about analysis, mechanics, choreography, and decisions  
about how to move.
  - style is the look and appearance of tango.
  - history is the rich tradition of tango in it's time periods and  
neighborhoods.

In my analysis, nuevo only usefully refers to the middle item.

Stylistically: If "milonguero" (whatever that means) is my preferred  
style, my purpose is to express music, and the energy of partnership.  
Milonguero means in the choreographical sense, my steps are dictated  
by trying to maintain a very close connection at all times.

Technically: Yes, I have studied and incorporate "nuevo" methodology  
in the gustavian sense. And as a teacher and dancer I really  
appreciate technical issues of axis and balance between axes, symmetry  
and mirrors, possibilities and technical analysis. Steps and technique  
are certainly helpful for expression.

Essentially: But, the most important thing remains: dancing tango is  
mainly about expressing music and feelings.

Historically, if we talk about Tango,it is so important that tango not  
lose its ties to its traditions and history.



On Oct 4, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Ecsedy ?ron wrote:

>
>> This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
>> and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour  
>> or
>> so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
>> is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
>> position. It is  not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
>> off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
>> and step forward.
>>
> IMHO It is the same thing technically. The difference is only in the
> amount (which I believe is the question of personal preference =  
> style).
>
> I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
> dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that  
> could
> be identified without doubt just by looking.
>
> The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
> - a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a  
> method of
> teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of
> sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which  
> probably
> never existed in a pure form in the first place)
> - a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means  
> there
> is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to
> tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves  
> and
> not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher,
> style, area, community etc.)
> - goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
> smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and  
> every
> tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
> - another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
> awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
> connection, communication between couple understandable for those  
> who do
> not understand it yet
>

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207





From stermitz at tango.org  Mon Oct  5 00:00:11 2009
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:00:11 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo".
In-Reply-To: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
References: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7D819586-17DA-4AD9-8FB2-257A6295C593@tango.org>

Your question doesn't make sense to me.

Nuevo is not a style of tango... Just like floorcraft is not a style  
of tango.

See, we're mixing apples and gardening techniques.


On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:00 PM, hbboogie1 at aol.com wrote:

> Aron, I have a question about "nuevo".
> When  you dance at milongas and the majority of the people are not  
> dancing
> nuevo, do  you stop and change directions and take up a great deal  
> of space?
> If this is  what you do, how do you feel about not following  
> traditional
> tango etiquette  rules?
> I'm asking you this question because I would really like an honest   
> answer.
> I'm not against tango nuevo, it's just that I see nuevo dancers have a
> rather selfish approach to space and line of dance and they don't  
> seem to care
> or have respect for others on the dance floor.
> Thanks,
> David

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207




From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 01:19:30 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo".
In-Reply-To: <7D819586-17DA-4AD9-8FB2-257A6295C593@tango.org>
References: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>
	<7D819586-17DA-4AD9-8FB2-257A6295C593@tango.org>
Message-ID: <434214.54784.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz at tango.org>
> 
> Nuevo is not a style of tango... > 
> 

I really don't know why some people continue to say that. As Sergio has just 
written ... "Nuevo is a distinct tango style and easily identified by looking."

Nuevo?might well have started out as something else but, IMHO,?it has now 
clearly evolved into a style of Tango, to join Salon and Milonguero. Most people 
can easily recognise these different styles and usually prefer one or another.

You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands 
of posts on Tango-L covering?the subject of?these 3?'styles' of dancing Tango. 

Is everybody wrong?

Jack



      


From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct  5 07:48:02 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:48:02 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo" #2
Message-ID: <4AC9DCF2.1020106@milonga.hu>

I believe that today's tango (along with Argentina!) is becoming more
'globalized' culturally. I do not try to take anything away from
Argentines though. I mentioned influence. With time it will change into
something that is no longer something that is exclusive to Argentina.
Actually, Argentina is becoming something that is no longer only
Argentine. Also, Argentina was always very multicultural compared to,
say, Tahiti. Argentina is a place. It's culture was already a mix when
tango emerged, but for at least a few decades it's natural state was
more or less the same type of mix, but afterwards I can't think of a
single decade when some aspect of tango was not _influenced_ by
something outside of Argentina. With the tango economy driven by people
outside Argentina, 99% of them never even getting near South America,
the influence of local cultural elements will be stronger. That's simply
unavoidable.

As for the content of nuevo, I think the word itself is a misnomer. It's
not the tango that is new in it. It is the way people approach tango.
The name itself was probably a simple marketing trick, but it stuck. The
same way Americans use the word 'kleenex' for tissue paper. It was meant
to convey something specific (the brand), while it was only something
general (tissue paper) for the simple purpose to drive people to buy
that specific product. Obviously, nomen est omen, so some people
included 'new' (or at least odd) stuff, so nuevo can live up to it's
name. But this process is still undecided, it is not general, or at
least not yet. Most nuevo teachers go back to the roots and use the
'technology' only as a way to get people moving. Of course the
possibilities are there to use them any way, so there will be people who
use it this way. I don't say 'misuse', as one of the general ideas in
nuevo that it does not imitate any specific style, so you are free to
develop your own. And by the way, this approach is very historical...
the reason I said 'museum' is because of this very historical aspect of
tango: the right of the individual to develop the style of its own is
being taken away or at least severly limited by 'tradition' that
supposed to be followed 'as danced in BsAs'. Tradition is a nice thing,
but I never heard about old milongueros imitating all other older
milongueros to be the best dancer around. They all invented things. The
same way the young in BsAs invent things. Wear cargo pants. Have a
crooked posture. Whatever. Some of it was (and is) accepted. Some of it
was (and is) not. The same happens 'nuevo': some 'nuevo' dancers invent
things that are not accepted by the community. These will 'die out'.
Others are accepted and are used (and maybe you don't even consider them
'nuevo' anymore - just a decade ago the term included several things
that are considered regular 'sal?n' now, and now it also include things
that were not defined at that time).

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/






From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct  5 07:47:49 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:47:49 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about "nuevo" #1
In-Reply-To: <434214.54784.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <d2f.4c7381d1.37fa82f5@aol.com>	<7D819586-17DA-4AD9-8FB2-257A6295C593@tango.org>
	<434214.54784.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AC9DCE5.4060906@milonga.hu>

Dear Everyone,

Pleeease call me ARON. My family name is Ecsedy (pronounced 'echedee',
with the first and second 'e' as in 'ever'). Hungarians, along with the
Japanese, write first names last, family names first.

I was truly amused by all your letters as everyone is really _agreeing_
on the main points, except the actual content of the term 'nuevo'. When
there is no strict, 'codified' definition for a term, then every and all
argument about it is in vain.

People who DO NOT dance nuevo (according to their own definition)
include certain aspects of (infdividual?) style and technique which
according to people who say that they DO dance nuevo are not part of the
term nuevo. So who is 'more' right? Who has the authority to define what
is included, what's not? What I wrote down was something everyone who
DOES dance nuevo agrees. I don't think nuevo is a style. The freedom it
contains may 'trigger' a way of dancing that will be distinguishable
from other styles, but that is not a must. For instance I've heard
Sebastian Arce saying that what he is dancing is Villa Urquiza
style...but the way he is approaching his dancing is nuevo.

Also, Sergio practically wrote down almost the same facts but considered
the Argentine predominance in tango teaching a sort of 'assurance' that
tango remains Argentine. But this was NOT the question. The issue was if
there is a change in tango, and if this change is driven by
multiculturality. Obviously, the 'Argentine' influence is there as the
starting point was in Argentina, but the CULTURAL influence may be of
another source, even if the foreign influence was and still being
integrated in Argentina, by Argentines. Just consider the way you dress,
how the way life was getting closer to the rest of the world (which
means strong US influence - true for most large cities anywhere), the
'counterculture', rock 'nacional' etc. The entire way of life is now
globalized and the rule of capitalism and market economy is, that
production/service always have to follow demand. If people want, say,
more freedom, then those who do not integrate that element into what
they sell, won't be able to sell it. If this element was not a
requirement in the native community, then it is a foreign element. I was
raised in a family full of ethnographers and historians. The general
idea is: something is original only if it is done the same way. If there
is a dance which was danced in a certain city, by a certain ethnicity,
following a certain ritual in both the way it is danced, the way it is
learned, the places it is danced, the whole environment, then there is
no way that in a different time, place, using different methods,
different ethnical background it will be even something remotely
similar. For instance there is something which is pretty recent, pretty
well dogmatized: the music of Bartok. I've never heard Bartok played
RIGHT by any non-Hungarian orchestra. What I mean by right? Bartok was a
modern 'classical' musician (the English word itself is wrong you see:
in Hungarian we say 'serious' music for 'classical' because there are
'contemporary classical musicians', which sounds like a joke) who used
his own country's folk music as a basis for his work. So a Hungarian
orchestra plays it so that the folk elements sound similar to Hungarian
folk music, as the dance rythmics are pretty much in the score. When
Bartok is played by, say, a world class Japanese conductor and a US
orchestra, it sounds like a Star Wars soundtrack (actually the music of
the first trilogy in most parts pretty similar of Bartok's Concerto for
Orchestra, of course there are also other parts that resemble Dvorak,
Holst, Stravinsky, Debussy etc)... So, Sergio yes: tango, as you
percieve it, can only be danced by Argentines, and their tango will be
more tango-like then tango danced by people who grew up within a vastly
different cultural mix. But the word, tango, is also container, and
content is changing because of the many non-Argentines whom are dancing
it too. So there will be a time, when the original context will be lost,
but a context (with elements of both the tradition and both the new
influences) will still be there. Happened to the (Viennese) Waltz
(supposed to be pan-German invention, became attributed to Vienna, but
even that is now only a tradition as you will find the Austrians to be
less adept at waltz than some other nations), happened to Ballet (was
French, became more Russian along the way, now you couldn't just point
and say this or that nation is better in it), happened to languages in
the past (greek, latin).

(cont...)


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  5 12:35:40 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:35:40 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
Message-ID: <SNT115-W40A3A95496091B5E9255E797CF0@phx.gbl>


Style

"a particular kind, sort, or type, as with reference to form, appearance, or character: the baroque style; The style of the house was too austere for their liking."
 
"a particular, distinctive, or characteristic mode or form of construction or execution in any art or work: Her painting is beginning to show a personal style." 
 
When you dance tango, eventually you may do it in "a particular way in reference to form, appearance or character" it will be "a particular, distinctive or characteristic mode or form of dancing tango" this will be your style.
 
There are many styles of dancing tango, they all preserve the character of the dance otherwise it ceases to be Argentine Tango to become something else.
 
Some people may decide that they wish to teach their particular style or a style as it is danced in certain sectors of the city.  They create a school of followers and eventually that particular style becomes danced by many people and becomes very popular.
 
This is what happened with the form of dancing in the crowded salons of downtown, traditional tango had to adapt to the lack of space,by doing so, it became characteristic in its form.  
 
At the beginning that form of dancing was called by different names: Confiteria style, downtown style, caquero style, milonguero style. Eventually "Milonguero Style" became the predominant name. Daniel Lapadula still teaches a variation of that style with the name "Estilo del Centro" (downtown style).
 
Tete, Susana Miller and Cacho Dante started to teach this style abroad where it became very popular. It was stablished as Milonguero style, the ocho cortado became the "ocho milonguero" and still is the style that most tourists are exposed to when they come to B.A. for a short time.
 
With respect to "Nuevo Tango" it started with Gustavo Naveira, Chicho and Fabian, as they developed a new form of analyzing the possible moves of tango.
 
They entirely based their teaching in an exhaustive analysis of each move with respect to where the axis of rotation was situated and how it changed during the execution of different figures including changes in direction and different forms of walking (parallel, crossed,double time).
 
They did not intend to create a new tango style but as they developed a school of followers both at home and abroad their characteristic way of dancing became a style or several different styles: Gustavo remained closer to Traditional tango style, Chicho and Fabian frequently, not always, adopted a particular way of dancing that eventually was called "Nuevo Tango".
 
There are places or milongas in B.A. and abroad where those particular styles are taught and danced, it is very easy to recognize them just by looking, yet there are still people that decided to deny their existence as tango styles.
 
I find important to recognize these different forms of dancing in order to select the style that one prefers to study at certain moment in the learning process. Some dancers eventually use one style with some elements of other styles.
 
Best regards, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

From buraktango at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 14:30:47 2009
From: buraktango at gmail.com (burak ozkosem)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:30:47 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W40A3A95496091B5E9255E797CF0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W40A3A95496091B5E9255E797CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <35ba58f10910051130l2f0ce226hdb1154ada1e9bebd@mail.gmail.com>

Sergio, thanks for the summary of this chronic disease spread among
Tango dancers who live outside of Argentina, every couple months we
started reading about How Tango Nuevo is bad, how it's killing Tango
soul, how it lacks elegance, how it's fashion sucks (i.e.baggy pants,
pijama pants, ugly shoes)  etc. etc.

My message is to the ones who keep complaining about tango nuevo since
it's born!  (you have been complaining about something that you
haven't experienced even)

You are making Tango Nuevo more popular and well accepted not only
outside Argentina but also in BsAs, old milongueros started dancing to
music of Otros Aires, people started wearing jeans to milongas,
because you guys have been talking about Tango Nuevo over and over.

This is how Astor Piazzolla's music became popular, by putting it as
background music to any bad and tragic news on tv.

If you believe that you are trying to preserve the essence of Tango,
and promote it, you should know that attacking on a methodology of
learning and teaching will cause more severe issues.

We shouldn't forget that anything considered "NEW" right now, wouldn't
stay as "NEW" 20 years from now. So, What's next? Neo-Milonguero or
Pan-Asian style or Post-Modern Tango?

Here is my analysis about the development of Tango Nuevo:

# Branched Development of Tango Nuevo: 1990-2000  (Post Todaro period)
We know that Tango NUEVO started as an analytical method for Tango
Pedagogy in early '90s. Naveira-Salas-Frumboli triple drove the
majority of this movement towards popularity among BsAs Tango
Community.
Meanwhile Pulpo had his own vision, which was also NEW for a lot of
dancers, and also Mauricio Castro started a research group late 90s,
then he started focusing on Tango Discovery method.

# Transitional period of Tango Nuevo: 2000-2008 ( from Tango Fantasia
into Tango Nuevo)
This is the period of time when Stage dancers started showing interest
into Tango Nuevo. Most of the talented couples were among these
dancers such as Sebastian Arce & Mariana Montes, Pablo Inza, Damian
Rosenthal & Celine Ruiz, Esteban Moreno & Claudia Codega, Damian
Essell & Nancy Louzan, Adrian Veredice & Alejandra Horbert and more...

these couples and several other dancers became the face of Tango Nuevo
along with Naveira-Salas-Frumboli triplet.

Right now, Tango Nuevo is not only a method of learning, understanding
and teaching Tango but also a way of dancing Tango.
Is it good or bad?
Some don't care because it developed a lucrative market (make up a
move and people will buy it since it's NUEVO)

Tango Nuevo is a by-product of  evolving Tango Culture, for the ones
who understand this Pedagogical tool, it's more than just a style.

I would like to share something which made more sense to me than
learning "ocho cortado" or "colgada"  in Tango:

Chicho was in Baltimore last August for Julia's Tango Element festival
and i had a chance to take a class from him after 4 years of break.
The class was about "Boleos Technique" and at one point Chicho had a
brief speech about the the evolution of technique in Tango.
He said he used to lead boleos like this 5 years ago and now he
prefers to lead like this... and he kept explaining why..

If, even Chicho is still in search of better quality and improvement
on connecting with the partner, accepting tango nuevo as a style and
dance to everything you hear the same,  degenerates your tango.



Bests
Burak
Chicago
www.chicagotangoweek.com

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  5 16:13:09 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:13:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
Message-ID: <SNT115-W4410F2A1889B4C065163DB97CF0@phx.gbl>



Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango.  Is everybody wrong?"
 
No, Jack everybody is not wrong, just few people are.
 
There are those that (in the mid 90s.) when I started talking about  tango styles that were developing in B.A. denied that there were different tango styles. Their argument was that "Tango was tango it did not matter the form or shape you dance. After all it is an improvised dance and there are many ways to dance".
 
The result of that attitude was a great confusion for the students and the organizers of teaching events. Just to give a couple of simple examples:
 
One week the students were told by Nito and Elba (traditional tango) to step toe first, to keep a variable embrace in V, to execute long steps,etc.
 
The following week Susana Miller (Milonguero tango) told those same students to step flat footed, to keep a continuous close embrace during the whole dance,to execute short steps, etc.
 
Then there were those that at the time heard Gustavo Naveira saying that 'Nuevo' was not a new style, it was a way of teaching traditional tango.  
He stated many times that he did not intend to develop a new tango style.
 
This group, not realizing that despite the initial intention of the creator;   that way of teaching traditional tango did indeed originate a new style,"Nuevo Tango" continue even today repeating the same: Nuevo is a way of teaching not a style.
 
Never mind that it is taught and learnt as a different style, that there are places where it is danced as a style. 
 
I find totally absurd that some people criticize the way others dance tango;
You may say I like/dislike the way so and so dances but you should have respect for the other dancers and their preferences. 
 
You dance the way you prefer as well, using a style that is appropriated to a particular milonga under certain conditions or room available to dance.
 
I consider legitimate complains in reference to some people not knowing how to navigate the floor; but the criticism should be directed against the lack of training of a particular dancer and not against a specific tango style.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct  5 14:23:07 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:23:07 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W40A3A95496091B5E9255E797CF0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W40A3A95496091B5E9255E797CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ACA398B.8070909@milonga.hu>

Dear Sergio,

I still believe that this whole debate is not about tango or styles, but 
semantics. See:
> They did not intend to create a new tango style but as they developed a school of followers both at home and abroad their characteristic way of dancing became a style or several different styles: Gustavo remained closer to Traditional tango style, Chicho and Fabian frequently, not always, adopted a particular way of dancing that eventually was called "Nuevo Tango".
>   
So they either dance what YOU call nuevo or they don't. Which means that 
their _style_ is NOT 'nuevo'. Therefore it seems that you are using 
'nuevo' to distinguish all styles that are not 'milonguero' or 'sal?n'?
> There are places or milongas in B.A. and abroad where those particular styles are taught and danced, it is very easy to recognize them just by looking, yet there are still people that decided to deny their existence as tango styles.
>   
Umm. OK. Let's look at those. We have five couples who use different 
characteristics. You say two of them dance 'nuevo'. I say, they are 
using nuevo technique to create their own style which DOES separate them 
from the others. One of them is dancing a style you identify as 
milonguero, I still say they are still using nuevo technique to create 
their own style which, however, conforms with your formal requirements 
of the milonguero style. The others are 'genuine' milongueros, who 
imitate their teachers also dancing their style that you brand milonguero.

Now, here is the quirk: If you show me someone who is using milonguero 
technique to dance what you call 'nuevo', you'll prove that _neither_ 
nuevo nor milonguero is a style. Because in that case you have proven 
that there is no difference between the two stylewise, but both 
techniques can achieve the same result. If you can't, that means nuevo 
is NOT a style, but milonguero is.

The 'style' nuevo technique creates when used in a particular way is 
simply something different. We should either separate the terms for the 
nuevo technique (original meaning) and the style it creates (at present 
also called 'nuevo' while being an independent phenomenon, call it 
modern tango or something else). I have no idea how to call it though, 
as there is no universally agreed definition for the other styles. Any 
definition you may come up with can be easily shown to be incomplete or 
contradictory. Nuevo technique does have a 'minimal' definition which 
is, by this definition, includes anything that is tango. Think about it 
as superset of all techniques used in other styles (as it was meant to 
be: the synthesis of the results of the analysis you mentioned). In 
other words: 'nuevo' is really just tango without any stylistical 
obligations attached.
> I find important to recognize these different forms of dancing in order to select the style that one prefers to study at certain moment in the learning process. 
This sentence...
> Some dancers eventually use one style with some elements of other styles.
>   
...and this are contradictory. If you want someone to use a mix, the 
only reason to separate them would be if there is a technical difference 
(there is none if you teach nuevo) or to teach people the history of 
tango, which in itself is not teaching dancing, but rather talking about 
the cultural background. Unless you can get a universal definition of 
the 'other styles' and show all of them without mixing in anything 
(including your own interpretation of said styles), you will just make 
the students lives miserable. The only information they need is if they 
are ever taught a subset of the possibilities ('style') by another 
teacher then they should be aware of the 'dependencies': that is the 
presumptions of a teacher who says that he is teaching this style or 
that (obviously, you can only guess).

Cheers,
aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 19:13:16 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W4410F2A1889B4C065163DB97CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <869509.40998.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want
> but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering
> the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango.? Is
> everybody wrong?"
>  
> No, Jack everybody is not wrong, just few people are.
>  

Actually, I just think that some people forget that language is alive and changing and that the meanings of words can change over time. I mean "kickin' boots" ain't talking about footwear.  Common usage is the most powerful way of defining something.

Same with "nuevo".  If someone refers to nuevo style, every single person on this list and many more outside of this list knows what is being referred to.  Trying to argue that nuevo is not a style is moot.  It's grown beyond what Chicho or Fabian say.  

Trini de Pittsburgh




      


From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Mon Oct  5 20:16:55 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:16:55 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] =?utf-8?q?Nuevo_=3F_Here=E2=80=99s_my_opinion=2E?=
Message-ID: <d0e.56b6f638.37fbe677@aol.com>

Here?s my opinion.
There are many styles and  techniques taught around the world and also with 
that teaching we were taught to  respect the line of dance and to respect 
others on the dance floor. I would hope  everyone agrees with this statement.
Let?s face it we have good and bad  dancers in all styles that either don?
t know this rule or simply choose to  ignore it. The problem is we have all 
learned to cope with these people who  dance ?traditional tango? open or 
closed embrace because even though they are  disrupting the floor it?s on a 
relatively small scale.

Now along comes  Nuevo and the disruption is bigger and more dangerous to 
others because they are  being taught big sweeping moves and changes of 
direction which makes it hard for  others to cope with on a social floor. 
I don?t think the discussion should  be ?What is Nuevo?? come on people we 
all know what Nuevo is. The discussion  should be ?Where should Nuevo be 
danced?
Ask yourself this, can I dance Nuevo  on a Saturday night at El Beso or Lo 
de Celia ? It?s not a trick question and we  all know the answer. 
Nuevo should be treated like Salsa or Swing and have  their own venues they 
could be very popular and profitable too. How about a  Nuevo Festival ?By 
Nuevo dancers for Nuevo dancers?  This could solve a lot  of disputes.  



From tango.society at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 21:02:02 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:02:02 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Segregation of Tango Events
Message-ID: <cff24c340910051802y12810befif232f62c41c8609@mail.gmail.com>

It's amazing that less than 5 minutres ago I posted a message to the
'Argentine Tango' network that expresses the same sentiment. There are
probably more of us thinking the same thing. I am replicating my
message here:

Ron

----

As is evident by the messages on this forum and even more so from an
ongoing discussion on Tango-L, there is considerable conflict between
nuevo and traditional tango in many parts of the world. There is
conflict over musical preferences (classic tango from the 30s, 40s,
and 50s versus a wider variety of music for dancing tango, including
non-tango music). There is often conflict over the use of space
(space-exploring nuevo versus compact milonguero). There is a simple
solution for this conflict ? segregation of events. This is what is
done in Buenos Aires. If you want to dance nuevo to non-traditional
music, there is Villa Malcolm, Practica X, La Viruta, L Marshall and a
few other places. If you want to dance tango milonguero, there are
about 100 traditional milongas to choose from. If you go to a
traditional milonga, it is understood that you hear only classic tango
music and that your movements should be compact and follow the line of
dance. If you go to a nuevo event, you can expect to hear
non-traditional music and find people who will use space consuming
moves and not necessarily progress along the line of dance. Most
people in Buenos Aires respect the culture of the tango venue they
attend. Some people attend both types of venues and modify their
dancing style to fit the environment.

If venues for dancing tango in the US (for example) were clearly
labeled as ?alternative? or ?traditional?, most dancers would know
what to expect if they attended. If these same dancers then followed
the customs of the event they attend, the conflicts would be
minimized.

In most US tango communities, expansive space-consuming dancing with a
desire for non-traditional music represents the majority of people who
identify themselves as tango dancers. Even when a milonga is organized
by a traditional tanguero, there is a good possibility that the
majority of the dancers will be nontraditional, and this mode of
dancing will create the atmosphere for the event. This is because
there is insufficient sensitivity to the desires of traditionalists to
create an atmosphere where dancing has an introspective
partner-oriented quality versus an extroverted quality. Thus, it
becomes difficult for tango traditionalists to find a suitable milonga
environment. Even at tango festivals advertised as oriented towards
?social dancing?, the increasing influx of nuevoists, causing an
increased need for defensive navigation, has made achieving an
introspective, partner-oriented atmosphere more difficult.

If dancers cannot respect the aims of milonga organizers, then there
is another option ? attendance by invitation. About a year ago, after
repeated frustration at the chaotic space utilization environment set
by some dancers in our local community (some nuevoists, some just
poorly skilled in navigation) we made a decision to limit the
dissemination of information about our milongas to dancers who we knew
would respect the atmosphere we have been trying to create. Attendance
has decreased so we moved to a smaller space. However, despite this,
the atmosphere at our milongas has improved significantly. We have
been able to achieve an environment of almost everyone dancing space
conscious tango milonguero to classic tango music. (Since we advertise
on our website, we still occasionally have people attend who have not
yet mastered navigation.) In the absence of the need to take evasive
action when navigating on the dance floor, the morale of our dancers
has also improved significantly.  I suggest that other milonga
organizers consider this option if you cannot achieve the atmosphere
you desire otherwise.



On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:16 PM,  <HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com> wrote:
> Here?s my opinion.
> There are many styles and ?techniques taught around the world and also with
> that teaching we were taught to ?respect the line of dance and to respect
> others on the dance floor. I would hope ?everyone agrees with this statement.
> Let?s face it we have good and bad ?dancers in all styles that either don?
> t know this rule or simply choose to ?ignore it. The problem is we have all
> learned to cope with these people who ?dance ?traditional tango? open or
> closed embrace because even though they are ?disrupting the floor it?s on a
> relatively small scale.
>
> Now along comes ?Nuevo and the disruption is bigger and more dangerous to
> others because they are ?being taught big sweeping moves and changes of
> direction which makes it hard for ?others to cope with on a social floor.
> I don?t think the discussion should ?be ?What is Nuevo?? come on people we
> all know what Nuevo is. The discussion ?should be ?Where should Nuevo be
> danced?
> Ask yourself this, can I dance Nuevo ?on a Saturday night at El Beso or Lo
> de Celia ? It?s not a trick question and we ?all know the answer.
> Nuevo should be treated like Salsa or Swing and have ?their own venues they
> could be very popular and profitable too. How about a ?Nuevo Festival ?By
> Nuevo dancers for Nuevo dancers? ?This could solve a lot ?of disputes.
>


From aron at milonga.hu  Tue Oct  6 06:56:03 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?windows-1252?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:56:03 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W4410F2A1889B4C065163DB97CF0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W4410F2A1889B4C065163DB97CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ACB2243.7060504@milonga.hu>

I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using 
large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a 
misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time 
outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of 
the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate 
without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on 
the planet. I've elaborated on this in one of my previous details. There 
is a tendency for dancers whom are more eccentric, more extrovert to be 
drawn to nuevo. But it is not nuevo that is causing this. It is the 
dancers.

Also, the nuevo concept of teaching allows you to learn the basics much 
faster, but in the meantime these fast learners do not have the time to 
collect the experience of handling the social environment of the 
milonga. Obviously, the ability to do things at a class and the ability 
to do it at a milonga are two separate things. At a class students will 
most likely not experience a large crowd, and thus do not learn to 
navigate appropriately in it. However, they do learn the opposite: they 
don't have to pay too much attention to other couples as there is ample 
space for everyone.

Personally, beginning from the second or third lesson I make people 
dance in a reduced space, usually at half a squaremeter (~0,6 sqyards) 
per person. When people have to use their knowledge in such a test 
environment, they can easily adapt to small spaces at a milonga. 
Obviously, most teachers (nuevo or not) don't do this. The only 
difference is, that nuevo dancers are usually ABLE to do it large, while 
milonguero dancers are much less able.

> Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango.  Is everybody wrong?"
>   

In 1632 Galileo Galilei was tried, found guilty by the Inquisition for 
heresy, was forced to recant and was under house arrest for the rest of 
his life (10 more years). The reason was: he believed in a helicentric 
world view (the Copernican model), which was not accepted at the time...

So was he wrong, or the rest of the world was wrong (with some minor 
exceptions like Copernicus himself - lucky enough to be born in Poland - 
or Giordano Bruno, who wasn't so lucky and thus was burned at the stake)?

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From tdval at wanadoo.fr  Tue Oct  6 10:14:03 2009
From: tdval at wanadoo.fr (Valentin TIEDE)
Date: Tue,  6 Oct 2009 16:14:03 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
Message-ID: <30352175.172139.1254838443812.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h30>

> Message du 06/10/09 13:05
> De : "ECSEDY ?ron" 
> A : "Tango-L" 
> Copie ? : 
> Objet : Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
> 
> 
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Jack you say "You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of dancing Tango. Is everybody wrong?"
> > 
> 
> In 1632 Galileo Galilei was tried, found guilty by the Inquisition for 
> heresy, was forced to recant and was under house arrest for the rest of 
> his life (10 more years). The reason was: he believed in a helicentric 
> world view (the Copernican model), which was not accepted at the time...
> 
> So was he wrong, or the rest of the world was wrong (with some minor 
> exceptions like Copernicus himself - lucky enough to be born in Poland - 
> or Giordano Bruno, who wasn't so lucky and thus was burned at the stake)?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What a comparison ! How many people were that time (1632) busy with astronomy in their everyday life ? And how many thousends of people today dance tango in their everyday life ? This changes the question of what is the opinion of the majority ...

The tango today (with some, fortunatelly not all, discussions in Tango-L) follows the development of the chritian religion - from Jerusalem to Rome (and all the heretics and also all the saints...) and than the Eastern Orthodox..., and the protestants... and the churches un the States (baptistes, m?thodistes and so on ...) And all they claim to have the same Jesus !!! Oh, my god! Who is the next Tango-prophet?
Do we have a tango-problem today, that is like the difference between the introvert individual religious experience and the "who is right and who is better" in the question of the extrovert expression of this experience? Do we have two styles of tango experience (only) - introvert and extrovert ? 
(Please don't give me an answer - I have mine ...! And by the way - I like much the word "intellectualize" used above). Valentin




From aron at milonga.hu  Tue Oct  6 11:14:05 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?UTF-8?B?RUNTRURZIMOBcm9u?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:14:05 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <30352175.172139.1254838443812.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h30>
References: <30352175.172139.1254838443812.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h30>
Message-ID: <4ACB5EBD.4080309@milonga.hu>


> What a comparison ! How many people were that time (1632) busy with astronomy in their everyday life ? And how many thousends of people today dance tango in their everyday life ? This changes the question of what is the opinion of the majority ...
>   
My example was definitely not about astronomy. It was about beliefs. It 
was about a dogmatized, majority belief that held on for centuries, and 
the recognition of the errors in this belief by a minority. It was about 
a few people who started to think differently instead of continuing the 
tradition and who's ideas were rejected, but later vindicated.

Obviously, I do not think I am anywhere near Galileo, but I wanted to 
underline that just because a lot of people in the list had been taught 
as Sergio suggested, to artificially classify dancing into THESE three 
styles, instead of finding some other, more tangible descriptions, the 
concept maybe wrong altogether.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  6 13:19:45 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:19:45 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Valentin and Aron are right
Message-ID: <SNT115-W246330857786C2F6E90DDC97CE0@phx.gbl>


 
Valentin says : "The tango today (with some, fortunately not all, discussions in Tango-L) follows the development of the chritian religion - from Jerusalem to Rome (and all the heretics and also all the saints...) and than the Eastern Orthodox..., and the protestants... and the churches un the States (baptistes, m?thodistes and so on ...) And all they claim to have the same Jesus !!! Oh, my god! Who is the next Tango-prophet?"
 
I always had suspected that tango followed the " chritian religion" as Valentin very well says.
I also suspected that it was in some way related to the sun, the stars, and the planets that revolve around them.   
 
But...Aron and perhaps Valentin as well will agree that Nuevo tango is more related to the horoscope than the other tango styles that are less astronomically inclined; milonguero being the least sideral as it is very grounded (remember to keep your knees flexed). 
 
I hope that by saying this I will not be accused of Arianism, as Giordano Bruno was condemned more for Arianism that for dancing tango in the wrong style, in the wrong milonga.
 
To finish I sometimes wonder if I am the new Tango Prophet, what do you think Valentin?
 
Best regards, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

From aron at milonga.hu  Tue Oct  6 13:41:45 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:41:45 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Valentin and Aron are right
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W246330857786C2F6E90DDC97CE0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W246330857786C2F6E90DDC97CE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ACB8159.5030608@milonga.hu>


> To finish I sometimes wonder if I am the new Tango Prophet
>   
I guess that would mean not just your knees to be fixed, but your ankles 
and hands as well... :)

And at the end we can always organize nice little asado for/with you...

...and forgive us our collisions,
as we forgive those colliding against us.
And lead us not into others,
but deliver us from nuevo...
[For thine is the tango,
the lead, and the milonguero,
for ever and ever.]
So say we all...

Cheers,
Aron
-- 

Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Tue Oct  6 13:49:00 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:49:00 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
Message-ID: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck  chances are ?.it?s a duck
Could someone please post a video of a normal  traditional Milonga with 
some Nuevo couples moving in the line of dance without  disrupting others.
Here are two perfect examples of what the eye sees and  what the brain 
registers. They are labeled for those of you that can't quite  make out the 
difference between ?Tango? and  ?Nuevo?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVV83rj9aOc&feature=PlayList&p=7FD82910EA3446
6F&index=1  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI

The Word of the Day  for October 06, 2009 is:
Nuevo ? \NU e Vo\  ?  noun

Never
Understand
Etiquette
Volcada
Obsessed   



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  6 14:15:22 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:15:22 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Aron and Valentin are right II - Hugging Meditation
Message-ID: <SNT115-W3167846FD708472310DAC897CE0@phx.gbl>



In answer to those that asked the reason I suspected Tango was related to the "Chritian religion".
 
It started when we were teenagers, my friend Julian and I used to go tango dancing every week.
 
After the milonga Julian always had to go to confession, I do not know what he had done while dancing but judging by the penalty the priest always gave him I was convinced that he had sinned badly. Despite of that he always had a line of girls waiting to dance with him.
 
IMO Julian was a nice boy. Once we were at a milonga it was 5 am , he was sitting and nodding as he was falling asleep, when an old lady suddenly jumped in front of him and said "yes young man, I do dance", he opened his eyes, stud up and went dancing with the lady. He was never certain if this had been  dreaming or reality.
 
As to the question may non Chritian dance tango? this is a difficult matter that I would like to refer to Valentin.  
 
We already have Tango Zen,tango meditation, tango hugging and tango trance.
is all this part of the Chritian as well?
 
Finally I would like to share "Hugging Meditation" with you:
 
"Hugging Meditation"
"When you hold a child in your arms, or hug your
mother, or your husband or your friend, if you breathe
in and out three times your happiness will be
multiplied at least tenfold.
If you are distracted, thinking about other things,
your hug will be distracted also, not very deep, and
you may not enjoy hugging very much.  So when you hug
your child, your friend, your spouse, I recommend that
you first breathe in and out consciously and return to
the present moment.  Then while you hold him or her in
your arms, breathe three times consciously and you
will enjoy your hugging more than ever before.
It takes time to become comforatble hugging this way.
But to really be there, you only need to breathe, and
suddenly the both of you become completely real.  The
two of you really exist in that moment.  It may be one
of the best moments in your life."
Lovely tangos to all,
Rose
Portland, OR

PS. Once I hugged for one hour and got into trouble because I forgot to breathe.
 
Make sure you breathe, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  6 14:47:38 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <366113.22938.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <506204.40001.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 10/6/09, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani at tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:


 They are
> wrong... it's as simple as that. Just because the
> 'masses' say so, doesn't nake it
> right.

Well, actually, when it comes to language, what the masses say is quite often "right".  Language is a way of communication.  And if enough people can understand it, then it's a valid part of language.  Gestures work the same way.  It's that simple.  Why do you think the new Oxford dictionary is so humongous?  


Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From politas at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 14:53:22 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 05:53:22 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <4ACB5EBD.4080309@milonga.hu>
References: <30352175.172139.1254838443812.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h30>
	<4ACB5EBD.4080309@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <4ACB9222.80504@gmail.com>

ECSEDY ?ron wrote:
> My example was definitely not about astronomy. It was about beliefs. It 
> was about a dogmatized, majority belief that held on for centuries, and 
> the recognition of the errors in this belief by a minority. It was about 
> a few people who started to think differently instead of continuing the 
> tradition and who's ideas were rejected, but later vindicated.
>   
The difference here is that astronomy is a topic where there is a clear 
objective truth, while the question of whether "Nuevo" is a style or 
purely a method of teaching is a human construct, with no objective 
reality beyond usage.
> Obviously, I do not think I am anywhere near Galileo, but I wanted to 
> underline that just because a lot of people in the list had been taught 
> as Sergio suggested, to artificially classify dancing into THESE three 
> styles, instead of finding some other, more tangible descriptions, the 
> concept maybe wrong altogether.
>   
Conversely, just because some people said that Nuevo was a teaching 
method and not a style does not mean that there is not now an 
identifiable style which is called Nuevo, both by practitioners and 
non-practitioners.

Myk,
in Canberra

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 17:08:08 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:08:08 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles II
In-Reply-To: <4ACB9222.80504@gmail.com>
References: <30352175.172139.1254838443812.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h30>
	<4ACB5EBD.4080309@milonga.hu> <4ACB9222.80504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910061408m280da1besde27c6391689d787@mail.gmail.com>

( Sorry, this has nothing to do with tango. But I want to set the
record straight. )

> The difference here is that astronomy is a topic where there is a clear objective truth.

No, there is no such thing!

The choice of a central object around which other objects revolve is
simply the one of a convenience.
The Earth does not rotate around the Sun.
In Newton's mechanics, they both rotate against their combined center of masses.
Remember that the Sun rotates around the center of galaxy and our
galaxy rotates in the universe.

Ptolemy's model was well developed. By Copernicus' time, it contained
sets of 3-4 nested circles and could predict all planet movements with
high precision.
I read somewhere that adding a couple more sets of circles would make
it so precise you could send spaceships to the Moon and back using it!

When Copernicus introduced his views, his system wasn't developed enough.
He had nested circles as well, but a single man couldn't beat in
precision the system that was developed over the centuries.
As a result, initially Copernicus' system was worse for predicting
planet movements than Ptolemy's.
Only after Kepler replaced the circles with ellipses it started to
beat Ptolemy's in elegance and precision.

Now get back to tango,

Sergey

From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Tue Oct  6 17:31:57 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:31:57 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
Message-ID: <c27.6bd8e4cc.37fd114d@aol.com>

I'm sorry but this video is a perfect example of  no line of dance. Look at 
the video I posted of the BsAs milonga and you can see  the entire room 
moving in unison in the line of dance. I've never seen nuevo  danced at a 
traditional milonga without disrupting the floor.Look at your video,  Nuevo 
dancers will either stop for long periods of time to spin back up against  the 
line of dance or the number one crime endless kicking. I counted 35 boleos  in 
one song by a nuevo couple. I'm not saying you can't dance this way I'm  
saying you shouldn't dance this way at a traditional milonga. I think the  
younger crowd dancing nuevo is not being taught how to respect others on the  
dance floor. I don't blame them I blame the teachers and the organizers of  
milongas. I go to a milonga in LA where you must follow the rules or you're  
asked to leave just like they do in Buenos Aires. 

In a message dated  10/6/2009 11:55:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
bertil36 at hotmail.com  writes:
Here is a nice video from an alternative Milonga were there is a very  
clear line of  dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuGuXA6hfw

please  enjoy,
Bertil

> From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 6 Oct  2009 13:49:00 -0400
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Subject: [Tango-L]  N.U.E.V.O.
> 
> If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck  chances are ?.it?s a duck
> Could someone please post a video of a normal  traditional Milonga with 
> some Nuevo couples moving in the line of dance  without disrupting others.
> Here are two perfect examples of what the eye  sees and what the brain 
> registers. They are labeled for those of you  that can't quite make out 
the 
> difference between ?Tango? and ?Nuevo?  
> 
>  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVV83rj9aOc&feature=PlayList&p=7FD82910EA3446
>  6F&index=1 
> 
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI
> 
> The Word of the Day  for October 06, 2009 is:
> Nuevo ? \NU e Vo\ ? noun
> 
>  Never
> Understand
> Etiquette
> Volcada
> Obsessed  
> 
> 
>  _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing  list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
>  http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



Windows Live:  Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they 
e-mail you. =  



From keith at totango.net  Tue Oct  6 17:52:26 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:52:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
Message-ID: <60916.65.93.192.167.1254865946.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>

>I don't blame them, I blame the teachers ...


The key point.


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  6 18:10:08 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 22:10:08 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Nuevo Tango
Message-ID: <SNT115-W58AFCB1CE5BFEE9A41A04F97CE0@phx.gbl>


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuGuXA6hfw
Bertil you say:   "I'm sorry but this video is a perfect example of no line of dance. Look at 
the video I posted of the BsAs milonga and you can see the entire room 
moving in unison in the line of dance. I've never seen nuevo danced at a 
traditional milonga without disrupting the floor."

 

Bertil I go to dance to Practica X from time to time, this is not a Traditional Milonga is a practica.  This means that the rules of the milonga do not apply.  There is freedom to practice, to dance in any direction, there are no tandas.

 

The important thing is that there is a lot of room so that everybody can practice and dance without disturbing anybody else.   

 

Despite of that dancers adjust their dancing to the available space  .

Early in the night there is more room and there is no line of dance, later on, as it gets fairly crowded there is a line of dance at the periphery and a slower moving center.

 

You may observe this in the videos that I provide.

 

La Rada in Mar del Plata is another place where I go from time to time. This is a small bar, despite of the little space everyone is able to dance without disturbing anyone else doing either nuevo, traditional or milonguero at the same time and following a line of dance.

 

Unfortunately I did not find a video of a regular milonga.


 

Practica X early   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMm2J2Tl924&feature=fvw

 

Practica X later   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m6HBFE1RGo&feature=related

 

La Rada Mar del Plata   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuGuXA6hfw

 

Best regards, Sergio


 

 

 
 		 	   		  
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From newtonr at mscd.edu  Tue Oct  6 19:15:47 2009
From: newtonr at mscd.edu (newtonr@mscd.edu)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:15:47 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo ? Here?s my opinion
Message-ID: <c832ed8726c8a.26c8ac832ed87@mscd.edu>

Perhaps too, not everything from class is intended for the traditional 
milonga, but more so for the development of the tanguero/a as a dancer 
and understanding of the dance of tango. 

Some thirty years ago I was a tournament fighter in karate. In terms of 
karate, one can, by observation, identify karate styles, Japanese style 
(Shotokan), Korean style (Tai Kwon Do), and Chinese style (Kung Fu). 
For those who practiced Japanese style, one could, by observation, 
differentiate between the styles of the three major schools (or 
traditions) in Japan. As a North American teen, first exposed to karate 
in the U.S. in the late 1960s, it all looked the same. Afterwhich, 
anyone with some expertise in the martial arts began to say that Tai 
Kwon Do is not karate, but distinctly Tai Kwon Do, same for KungFu. 
This is the same contention within styles debated in Argentine tango. 

A karate fighter excels in tournament play by adapting his own personal 
style, within the style of his discipline, within the rules of the 
competition, relying only on a few techniques; timing, speed and 
reaction are far more important. This similarity in tango can be 
extended to the milonga. A leader only needs a handful of techniques, 
executed well and perhaps polished with a personal style, but 
musicality and connection are far more important. 

Karate training was separate from tournament play but essential for its 
success. Tango seminars on shared axis, volcadas, colgadas, and the 
practice thereof at practica can be separate from the traditional 
milonga experience, but are essential for development, understanding of 
the foundation of tango and tango style, and development of personal 
ability and style. 

The standard subscription in tournament play, to allow the many 
different styles to compete, was the tournament rules. In a miloga, 
these would be the codas, including line-of-dance, no lifts or high 
boleos, no zigzagging or passing, etc. 

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  6 20:40:26 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:40:26 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] La Rada Mar del Plata
Message-ID: <SNT115-W99EAE1C790650A394FA6D97CD0@phx.gbl>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le7t78KqPAs
 
I apologize I did not send the video of La Rada in Mar del Plata.
 
There is an exhibition that shows the style that is danced there. 
There are always people dancing Milonguero and Traditional as well, all mixed and in perfec harmony.
 
Despite of having a very small dancing floor it is easy to dance there as everybody has very good navigation skills.
 
On another subject:
 
Sergey you said; "Only after Kepler replaced the circles with ellipses it started tobeat Ptolemy's in elegance and precision."
 
Do you think that the tango line of dance should be changed from round to elliptical in order to be up to date, agree with Kepler and increase the elegance and precision of tango? or perhaps we should have several concentric lines of dance, sone going clockwise and others counterclockwise; this way we would be in total harmony with the Universe.
 
Un abrazo tanguero, Sergio
 
 
 
  		 	   		  
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  7 05:28:01 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 02:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>
References: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: "HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com" <HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com>
> 
> If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck? chances are ?.it?s a duck
> > > 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI
> 

If this isn't 'Nuevo' can somebody please tell me what it is. I'm confused.

Jack


      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  7 09:02:23 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:02:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
Message-ID: <SNT115-W34FF85855975938BA4DCCF97CD0@phx.gbl>


Jack you ask "what is this?, I am confused"

 

I do not know what it is, but I know what it is not.  It is not Argentine Tango or any other form of tango known to me.

 

The music is not tango, the character of the dance is not tango, there are moves of the upper body or the hips more related to some of the Central American dances that should not be present in A.T.

 

There are some moves typical of the A.T. choreography such as ganchos (or leg wraps) and a close embrace, this is all that there is in reference to A.T. or any other form of tango.

 

What  is confusing is the use of the word "Milonga" to describe this type of dance.

 

The announcement of an "alternative milonga" usually means that a great part of the music played will not be traditional tango, in this particular case neither is the dance being done.

 

Solution: find a word different than "Milonga" to describe such an event.

Alternative "something" baile? dance? encounter?...

 

Have a nice day,

 

Sergio

 

 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  7 17:31:56 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W34FF85855975938BA4DCCF97CD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <341292.52984.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Jack you ask "what is this?, I am confused"
> 
>  
> 
> I do not know what it is, but I know what it is not.?
> It is not Argentine Tango or any other form of tango known
> to me.

Now, Sergio, let's be fair.  Quite a few of the dancers in the video are dancing close and look nice.  The camera chose to focus on those with flashier moves.  The choice of music, however, was awful.  It didn't look to me as if people interpreted it well at all.  When Sean & I get bored with the music, we end up doing flashier steps just to entertain ourselves.  Perhaps this is what happened there.

Trini



      


From don at aymta.org  Wed Oct  7 19:44:14 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:44:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1183.1254934625.26499.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1183.1254934625.26499.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4ACD27CE.4080006@aymta.org>

Why do you assume they are taught?  Sounds very Northern 
hemisphere-based.  Even here does the "younger crowd" predominately does 
not have "teachers" for swing, hip-hop, cajun, zydeco, ... ??   You  
ignore the dynamics of social evolution (or perturbations in 
non-equilibrium systems) much like the L'Acad?mie fran?aise attempts to 
codify the language to the extent of opposing protection for regional 
languages.

Don

HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote:
> I think the  
> younger crowd dancing nuevo is not being taught how to respect others on the  
> dance floor. I don't blame them I blame the teachers  ...


From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Wed Oct  7 20:34:20 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:34:20 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
Message-ID: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com>

You're right I shouldn't assume they were taught  because if I assume they 
were taught the codigos then I would then have to make  the assumption that 
they were idiotas for not adhering to them.
Even in the  Southern hemisphere children are taught respect by the parents 
but it's up to  the children to decide for themselves to show that respect.
Never try to  teach a pig to sing....it wastes
your time and annoys the  pig.



In a message dated 10/7/2009 4:45:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time, 
don at aymta.org writes:
Why do you assume they are taught?  Sounds  very Northern 
hemisphere-based.  Even here does the "younger crowd"  predominately does 
not have "teachers" for swing, hip-hop, cajun, zydeco,  ... ??   You  
ignore the dynamics of social evolution (or  perturbations in 
non-equilibrium systems) much like the L'Acad?mie fran?aise  attempts to 
codify the language to the extent of opposing protection for  regional 
languages.

Don

HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote:
> I  think the  
> younger crowd dancing nuevo is not being taught how to  respect others on 
the  
> dance floor. I don't blame them I blame the  teachers   ...

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing  list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l  



From don at aymta.org  Wed Oct  7 20:59:11 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:59:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>

I would agree that it would be nice if all chose appropriate venues for 
their styles until they are into protest art or street theater, but that 
doesn't devalue the styles.

HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote:
> You're right I shouldn't assume they were taught  because if I assume they 
> were taught the codigos then I would then have to make  the assumption that 
> they were idiotas for not adhering to them.
> Even in the  Southern hemisphere children are taught respect by the parents 
> but it's up to  the children to decide for themselves to show that respect.
> Never try to  teach a pig to sing....it wastes
> your time and annoys the  pig.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2009 4:45:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time, 
> don at aymta.org writes:
> Why do you assume they are taught?  Sounds  very Northern 
> hemisphere-based.  Even here does the "younger crowd"  predominately does 
> not have "teachers" for swing, hip-hop, cajun, zydeco,  ... ??   You  
> ignore the dynamics of social evolution (or  perturbations in 
> non-equilibrium systems) much like the L'Acad?mie fran?aise  attempts to 
> codify the language to the extent of opposing protection for  regional 
> languages.
>
> Don
>
>   


From aron at milonga.hu  Wed Oct  7 21:20:32 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 03:20:32 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com> <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>
Message-ID: <4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>


Don Klein ?rta:
> I would agree that it would be nice if all chose appropriate venues for 
> their styles until they are into protest art or street theater, but that 
> doesn't devalue the styles.
>   

I am always fascinated by the insatiable need of Western societies to 
regualte things as if by decree. I believe this is one of the biggest 
obstacles in learning how to behave, in tango and in life. The way the 
general perception see latins... Paying attention to the justifiable 
needs of others as a default, and knowing when you cross the line (not 
forbidden, just not pretending that you are entitled to do so) would 
help both the US and Europe become much more 'liveable'. Right now, if 
there is a 'rule' for something then nobody gives a sh*t about what is 
balanced, and what happens to the other person. Those 'codigos' are 
simple things to avoid a more aggressive confrontation. They aren't 
really rules as such. They are life insurance policies. You can break 
them, but retalation will not be automatic. Only if the breaking of the 
rule caused harm to someone else.

I do not believe that the artificial separation (even if voluntary) 
solves anything - it only separates people. The solution would be to pay 
attention to very basic ethics of reciprocity. Do unto others as you 
would have them do unto you. Or rather: Bump into others as you would 
have them bump into you.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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http://www.eset.com



From rontango at rocketmail.com  Thu Oct  8 00:43:57 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com> <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>
	<4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <327994.29413.qm@web111803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu>
> 
> I am always fascinated by the insatiable need of Western societies to 
> regualte things as if by decree. I believe this is one of the biggest 
> obstacles in learning how to behave, in tango and in life. The way the 
> general perception see latins... Paying attention to the justifiable 
> needs of others as a default, and knowing when you cross the line (not 
> forbidden, just not pretending that you are entitled to do so) would 
> help both the US and Europe become much more 'liveable'. Right now, if 
> there is a 'rule' for something then nobody gives a sh*t about what is 
> balanced, and what happens to the other person. Those 'codigos' are 
> simple things to avoid a more aggressive confrontation. They aren't 
> really rules as such. They are life insurance policies. You can break 
> them, but retalation will not be automatic. Only if the breaking of the 
> rule caused harm to someone else.

This is incorrect. Milonga codes are not as strictly enforced in Buenos Aires as they were in the past, but they still exist. Reckless navigation is frowned upon. If it is flagrant, you will be spoken to by the milonga organizer. (The violator's lack of knowledge of Spanish makes this a futile intervention.) You don't approach the table of someone whom don't know to ask for a dance. (Most likely you will be turned down.) You use the cabeceo instead. You don't invite someone to dance who is part of a couple. You don't dance the cortina. You don't drop someone in the middle of a tanda. Someone who violates these rules will be peripheralized, not invited to dance, in extreme cases asked to leave the milonga. 

In fact, by comparison it is North American milongas that often lack these rules. What I see is that the Nuevoistas and the Nuevoista-wannabies act often act like rebellious adolescents who don't want to be controlled by rules. As long as there is no blood on the floor, everything is cool. Dancers who want to have some decorum at milongas (adhere to the line-of-dance, don't bump into people) are framed as control freaks, tango police, and even tango fascists. What I see happening repeatedly is that despite saying they respect tango tradition, the music, and the customs, in their actions the Nuevoistas are forgetting tradition, ignoring the music, and rebelling against customs in their display of this new evolved form of tango. Call it Nuevo or call it just bad manners, but more and more people are getting fed up with the coup d'etat that is occurring at many North American milongas. That's why an increasing number of us are calling for segregation of
 events. As far as we're concerned, you can set your own codes of behavior (or lack of standards) at your alternative milongas and we won't care; we just won't attend. Just don't come running into our milongas like the bulls of Pamplona. Instead of saying 'I can't believe that you people are regulating behavior by decree', either abide by the codes of the milonga you attend, or don't come. And, yes, just so people know what to expect, clearly label your milongas as "Alternative" and your teaching as "Nuevo", so people know what to expect.


> I do not believe that the artificial separation (even if voluntary) 
> solves anything - it only separates people. The solution would be to pay 
> attention to very basic ethics of reciprocity. Do unto others as you 
> would have them do unto you. Or rather: Bump into others as you would 
> have them bump into you.

Separation is necessary because the goals of the dancers (music, manner of dancing) are incompatible. If you can't respect that codes of the environment, don't impose your codes (or lack of them) on a unappreciative audience. No one is telling you how to run your alternative milongas. Don't force traditionalists to have a Nuevo environment imposed on them against their will.    

Ron


      



From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Thu Oct  8 01:33:27 2009
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Mel Roddie)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:33:27 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Evolution of Tango technique
Message-ID: <281268.95749.qm@web96108.mail.aue.yahoo.com>

Hi Burak, you mention?that in your class with Chico he talked about evolution of boleo technique. 
I have heard explanations on evolution of technique, less use of arms more contra-body/torso lead etc.(from Osvaldo Zotto, Salas etc).
I am interested in how Chico has changed his concept of leading the boleo from 5 years ago. 
Can you pass on his thoughts on this.
Thanks, Mel.
(NZ) 

From jb34528 at att.net  Thu Oct  8 01:58:24 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 05:58:24 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>
	<876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <100820090558.465.4ACD7F7F000D354C000001D122243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

-------------- Original message from Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>: -------
Jack Dylan wrote 
>If this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI) isn't 'Nuevo' can somebody please tell >me what it is. I'm confused. 
>Jack 
It is a beautiful tango - of "young people". (With the greatest respect for Sergio?s opinion, who so often had to step in to restore sanity to the debates on this list.)  I do not like the music though. Saw Chicho a number of times using the same style shown on the video to interpret music of DiSarli or Ricardo Tanturi, for example. Of course, Chicho blends in beautifully in a traditional, ?feet on the floor at all times?, milonga. His advice to us was ?don?t do this (re: a move in the video) unless you find a space and then resume the close embrace dance?. It strikes me as a little insane that people are being segregated to dance ?nuevo? to the non-traditional music ? re: ?alternative milonga?. Since I am often asked for it when I DJ, I can an only speculate that the younger generation finds such music appealing because of their disco, swing and salsa experiences. The ?nuevo? dancers complained about on this list are generally well behaved and polite people who, for example, abruptly stop to let you go first through the door. It is up to the milonga organizer who needs to stop acting as a potted plant and help such dancers to translate their good manners into the milonga environment. I.e., not to inform them that the ?nuevo? is forbidden but that they MUST make sure that any expansive moves do not interfere with or even scare other dancers. I.e., it?s OK only if they find a space.
I wrote ?nuevo? in quotation marks because the dance on the video is not ?nuevo?, it is the nuevo enabled tango.
Jan 

From aron at milonga.hu  Thu Oct  8 06:00:35 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:00:35 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <327994.29413.qm@web111803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com> <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>
	<4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
	<327994.29413.qm@web111803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ACDB843.3010305@milonga.hu>


> Reckless navigation is frowned upon. 
Reckless meaning threatening others, no?
> If it is flagrant, you will be spoken to by the milonga organizer. (The violator's lack of knowledge of Spanish makes this a futile intervention.) 
Again...it is disturbing others.
> You don't approach the table of someone whom don't know to ask for a dance. (Most likely you will be turned down.) 
Which means that this isn't a rule. Simply, women protect their own 
interest for a good dance. An 80+ year old BsAs (folklore) dance teacher 
told me once, that she stopped going to milongas (she is dancing tango 
aswell), because good dancers tended to ask younger women to dance, and 
she doesn't need a bad dance, it is not what she's there for.
> You use the cabeceo instead. 
Which works. Or it isn't. Again: it is just the choice of a woman. 
Cabeceo is a good way to protect her (and the other's) peace of mind. If 
it is not done universally, it will spawn a kind of contest, who is the 
more direct ("promiscous") and men get use to be able to ask anyone out 
anytime (like in most other parts of the world). Cabeceo is not observed 
in all environments within BsAs either.
> You don't invite someone to dance who is part of a couple. 
Except if you do. The rules appear to be same as asking someone for a 
lunch or dinner. If you aren't aware that she has partner, if she is 
open to it, if you know both of them...etc. It is very human. Anyone 
with who's not utterly autistic will see this. Or if not, he will be 
rejected (then see above).
> You don't dance the cortina. 
That isn't a rule. A cortina's role is to separate dances and to allow 
people to clear the floor and get read to find a new partner. DJs tend 
to play the cortina as long as this is not fulfilled.
> You don't drop someone in the middle of a tanda. 
Unless, s/he's a bad dancer, or you just not feeling comfortable to 
dance with him/her. I saw it happen regularely.
> In fact, by comparison it is North American milongas that often lack these rules. What I see is that the Nuevoistas and the Nuevoista-wannabies act often act like rebellious adolescents who don't want to be controlled by rules. As long as there is 
Apparently, these Nuevoistas are very old adolescents indeed. Some of 
them over 50...
> no blood on the floor, everything is cool. Dancers who want to have some decorum at milongas (adhere to the line-of-dance, don't bump into people) are framed as control freaks, tango police, and even tango fascists. What I see happening repeatedly is that despite saying they respect tango tradition, the music, and the customs, in their actions the Nuevoistas are forgetting tradition, ignoring the music, and rebelling against customs in their display of this new evolved form of tango. 
All they above is just not paying attention to others. Rules are 
external. Goodwill towards your 'dancemates' is internal. That's a 
paradigm change which is connected to modernity.
> occurring at many North American milongas. That's why an increasing number of us are calling for segregation of
>  events. As far as we're concerned, you can set your own codes of behavior (or lack of standards) at your alternative milongas and we won't care; we just won't attend. Just don't come running into our milongas like the bulls of Pamplona. Instead of saying 'I can't believe that you people are regulating behavior by decree', either abide by the codes of the milonga you attend, or don't come. And, yes, just so people know what to expect, clearly label your milongas as "Alternative" and your teaching as "Nuevo", so people know what to expect.
>   
That can't work. You are neither allowed to (until they cause harm), and 
you can't enforce it either (there is absolutely no legal way to throw 
someone out if he is not causing serious problems and paid for the entry 
- at least not in Europe). If most of the dancers at a milonga like it 
in a certain way, I suggest that instead of being authoritative, try to 
chat the trespassers up and while befriending them talk about your 
concept, the way you like your milongas, why do you like them that way. 
This is much more effective then forcing people. Also makes you sleep a 
lot better. Of course, it takes more time then telling them off, but 
probably you will not be handled as delusional power crazy fossils either...

Cheers,
Aron


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From laura at lavatop.com  Thu Oct  8 06:34:17 2009
From: laura at lavatop.com (Laura V)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 10:34:17 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <100820090558.465.4ACD7F7F000D354C000001D122243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
References: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>	<876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<100820090558.465.4ACD7F7F000D354C000001D122243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
Message-ID: <4ACDC029.3090501@lavatop.com>

Not every tango community is large enough to support separate 
traditional and nuevo milongas. When I dj, I usually throw in a couple 
of alternative tandas, because I know some of the dancers love it. Not 
everyone dances to these, but surprisingly, more and more people try it, 
just to let loose a bit. If they don't want to, then they can use the 
time to get a drink, chat with friends, etc. We also have dancers using 
open embrace and larger figures during traditional tunes, not a problem 
if everyone respects the line of dance and space involved.

The dancing in the video clip from Portland is pretty wild - because the 
music called for it and there was space for it. I didn't see any bumping 
though...nuevo dancers don't walk backward in the line of dance, do 
they? I also noticed at least a few couples in close embrace. Possibly 
they were hoping for the song to finish and something a bit more musical 
to take its place, who knows. This was after all just one random song at 
an unspecified time of the evening; I would be surprised if the entire 
milonga was of exactly the same flavor, as  a good nuevo dj should vary 
the mood and intensity during the evening just as a traditional dj would.

Most milongas and festivals I've attended in Europe (Sweden, Holland, 
Germany, UK) seem to accommodate a mix of traditional and nuevo, but the 
traditions (the tandas, cortinas, cabeceo, dance direction, etc) are 
still very much in place, as they should be. These "rules" (more like 
guidelines) have developed over time for a reason...to keep the evening 
running smoothly.

Just my observations!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Oct  8 08:36:37 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 09:36:37 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Observations on "Nuevo"
Message-ID: <4ACDDCD5.8090703@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Well, I found myself agreeing with 50% of the burst of good high-energy 
discussion in the last few days, then realized that since every opinion 
and its counterpart had been expressed, that statistically speaking 
pretty much everyone would have to agree with 50%. :-)

Anyway, some observations on the over-generalized use of "Nuevo":

Various people have attached the "nuevo" label to all of the following 
things, in some cases lumping them together, in other cases treating it 
as an "evolution" (or "devolution," depending on the perspective).

There may have been an evolution in a chronological sense in some of 
these, but they are all distinct phenomena and are being grossly 
over-generalized and even more grossly over-simplified by all being 
given the label "nuevo."

- STRUCTURE: Naveira/Salas/Frumboli (the last to a lesser extent) 
analysis of tango movements into elements to identify a structure within 
the dance. They never called it "nuevo," they called it "structure" and 
it was largely within the realm of traditional Tango. Mid/late '90s. 
Some of it I found extremely useful (e.g., it's emphasis on the giro and 
its technique as a fundamental building block of Tango structure), other 
things "interesting but not particularly useful mathematical 
curiosities," such as trying to explain the cruzada as just another 
giro, and other things "experimental" such as extrapolating the 
structure into new "figures" like "Change of Direction." The last of 
these seemed to me more like a particle physicist's attempt to define 
all the possible elementary particles that must exist by symmetry and 
then spending a good part of a career trying to discover them: it is 
great that science is being pursued by a talented few, and it must be, 
but practical applications will be few and far between for most of us.

- MORE OPEN MOVES: This PARTIALLY evolved from the above, where some 
extrapolated figures really needed a more open position. But there was 
also the influence of dozens of Tango stage dancers (which the N/S/F 
trio really are not), who for many years dominated the teaching of Tango 
around the world, and who taught open figures because (a) that's how 
it's danced on stage (easier to see and do flashy stage moves) and (b) 
students flocked to classes to learn the aforementioned flashy stage 
moves. In fairness to these teachers, most of them DID place a lot of 
emphasis on proper technique. But a lot of people wasted a lot of time 
and kicked a lot of shins learning to do back sacadas (not easily done 
in close embrace) while thinking they were learning social Tango. A 
third influence on open moves and a more open embrace was that in most 
non-Latin cultures, people are just more comfortable dancing further 
apart (the milonguero movement in exported Tango came later), and a 
fourth influence was of course the much greater space to do these open 
moves in the relatively nascent Tango communities of the time (and in 
most even now) outside Buenos Aires.

- NEW FIGURES: The oft-mentioned "colgadas" and "volcadas" come to mind. 
(The colgada, unlike the volcada, IMHO is largely incompatible with 
traditional Tango technique, but that's another discussion ...) The 
point is that these have nothing to do with the first two (they don't 
directly derive from the "structure" nor do they come out of an open 
embrace--a volcada would in fact preclude one). The N/S/F trio (among 
others) WERE instrumental in their development and adoption and 
dissemination, no doubt helped by their effective and successful 
marketing (in a positive sense).

- "TECHNO"/ELECTRONIC TANGO: The music that is. I'd guess the term 
"Tango Nuevo" was first used in the context of the music. This music 
came, and still comes, from Argentina, or in some cases from Argentine 
musicians in other parts of the world (e..g, Gotan Project). Some of the 
more sweeping figures and/or open moves went well with SOME of this 
music (a very small fraction of which is actually danceable, 
notwithstanding the "one can dance anything to anything" school), so 
there was some synergy there.

- ALTERNATIVE TANGO [SIC] MUSIC: From the "one can dance anything to 
anything" school, an attempt to dance Tango to anything EXCEPT Tango 
music (techno or otherwise). Sorry, but this is an entirely gringo 
phenomenon. To the extent that it exists in Argentina at all, it's to 
cater to the Tango tourists who "learned" to expect this. I call them 
"excessively long cortinas," and they are most appropriate for doing 
what one does during cortinas (anything except dance Tango).

- BAD NAVIGATORS/INCONSIDERATE DANCERS: Nothing to do with any of the 
above, except (and this is a big "except") that big-movement dancers are 
much more of a nuisance when they disrupt other dancers. As succinctly 
stated by Aron: "bad nuevo dancers are like lighthouses, bad traditional 
dancers are simply ignored." But I would expand to "bad and/or 
inconsiderate and/or unaware" (after all, someone who is bad just 
because he is a beginner is to be nurtured, not rejected).

One can't really lump all these things into the word "nuevo" (and some 
of it isn't even new). My own personal preference (or tolerance) for 
these is roughly in decreasing order in the way I listed them above:

- I've found some of the structure extremely useful, particularly in 
giros, barridas, and the like.

- Open/sweeping moves: with the right space and the right partner and 
the right music, sure, but I very rarely encounter that combination, and 
even less if it's techno Tango I'm dancing to.

- Volcadas: yes (but sparingly), colgadas: no.

- Alternative Tango [sic] music and inconsiderate dancers: Here, I'm 
with Ron--let's isolate these to the same room and lock the door (from 
the outside). :-)

Shahrukh

From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Thu Oct  8 10:09:16 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.--oldies are goodies
In-Reply-To: <4ACDC029.3090501@lavatop.com>
References: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>
	<876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<100820090558.465.4ACD7F7F000D354C000001D122243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<4ACDC029.3090501@lavatop.com>
Message-ID: <396413.76809.qm@web46004.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I receive from a friend a CD of a tango singer, named Vayo . It seems the man is from Uruguay, although his voice is a bit brazilian , I am not sure. 
the fact is , he says he makes different tangos, and arrangement of known tangos as la cumparsita .....

frankly speaking , this arrangements are not danceable in a milonga? night . They lack the tempo, the beating, they are longer than what an average track of a tango could be ( 3 minutes is more than enough for a track).

so I can t see how this music could be introduced into a milonga night without changing the atmosphere of dancers,. Maybe it could be a good music to have die hards ( the one that danced even the cortina ) , stomping away at the end of the milonga night, on the small hours...


Anibal Troilo once said that there was not such a thing that tango nuevo or tango viejo, it simply was a matter of tango played well or bad.

Bajofondo, Tanghetto, Gotan project .... they simply are not tango traditional and if played ,as said before, within a tango night altogether with the oldies but goodies... it simply spoil the night

alberto


      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/

From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Thu Oct  8 10:41:07 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.--oldies are goodies
In-Reply-To: <4ACDC029.3090501@lavatop.com>
References: <cc1.60e68bab.37fcdd0c@aol.com>
	<876782.40837.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<100820090558.465.4ACD7F7F000D354C000001D122243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<4ACDC029.3090501@lavatop.com>
Message-ID: <43248.71772.qm@web46002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I receive from a friend a CD of a tango singer, named Vayo . It seems the man is from Uruguay, although his voice is a bit brazilian , I am not sure. 
the fact is , he says he makes different tangos, and arrangement of known tangos as la cumparsita .....

frankly speaking , this arrangements are not danceable in a milonga? night . They lack the tempo, the beating, they are longer than what an average track of a tango could be ( 3 minutes is more than enough for a track).

so I can t see how this music could be introduced into a milonga night without changing the atmosphere of dancers,. Maybe it could be a good music to have die hards ( the one that danced even the cortina ) , stomping away at the end of the milonga night, on the small hours...


Anibal Troilo once said that there was not such a thing that tango nuevo or tango viejo, it simply was a mattr of tango played well or bad.

Bajofondo, Tanghetto, Gotan project .... they simply are not tango traditional and if played ,as said 



________________________________
De: Laura V <laura at lavatop.com>
Para: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Enviado: jue, octubre 8, 2009 7:34:17 AM
Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.

Not every tango community is large enough to support separate 
traditional and nuevo milongas. When I dj, I usually throw in a couple 
of alternative tandas, because I know some of the dancers love it. Not 
everyone dances to these, but surprisingly, more and more people try it, 
just to let loose a bit. If they don't want to, then they can use the 
time to get a drink, chat with friends, etc. We also have dancers using 
open embrace and larger figures during traditional tunes, not a problem 
if everyone respects the line of dance and space involved.

The dancing in the video clip from Portland is pretty wild - because the 
music called for it and there was space for it. I didn't see any bumping 
though...nuevo dancers don't walk backward in the line of dance, do 
they? I also noticed at least a few couples in close embrace. Possibly 
they were hoping for the song to finish and something a bit more musical 
to take its place, who knows. This was after all just one random song at 
an unspecified time of the evening; I would be surprised if the entire 
milonga was of exactly the same flavor, as? a good nuevo dj should vary 
the mood and intensity during the evening just as a traditional dj would.

Most milongas and festivals I've attended in Europe (Sweden, Holland, 
Germany, UK) seem to accommodate a mix of traditional and nuevo, but the 
traditions (the tandas, cortinas, cabeceo, dance direction, etc) are 
still very much in place, as they should be. These "rules" (more like 
guidelines) have developed over time for a reason...to keep the evening 
running smoothly.

Just my observations!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  8 11:41:00 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:41:00 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving the character of the dance
Message-ID: <SNT115-W419CBDA465F7D6F88A556F97CC0@phx.gbl>


Dear Jan you say "It is a beautiful tango "
 
I did not express an opinion in reference to the beauty of the dance, this is a matter of personal taste.  I did like it as well. I think that everybody should dance any way they like to do it, I just tried to clarify to Jack that the confusion comes from the use of the word "Milonga" in reference to this type of dance, but if anybody wish to use it, this is fine with me as well.
 
IMO (I am sure others may disagree) that particular form of dancing did not preserve the "character" of the dance, it looks totally foreign to me, something totally disconnected from its Argentine roots.  The moves are those of tango but neither the music or the dance itself gives the feeling orlooks like A. T. of any style that I know.(Trina points that some dancers do dance preserving the tango character and I agree, some of them do.
 
Below you will see Chicho and Fabian dancing nuevo tango both to traditional and alternative music but preserving the "Character" of the dance. 
 
The first time around,(early 20th century) Tango was changed in England to make it more like the other ballroom dances: a steady beat was created for the music, the choreography was changed so that both members of the couple performed the same foot work, one the mirror of the other, the embrace was reshaped to adopt a V figure instead of the original A shape, the partners do not look to each other, jerking movements of the head  and very long steps were added,the dance steps were changed to a sequence of Slow, slow, quick, quick, slow with possible variations of this sequence.  
 
A new dance was created: The International Tango, which is beautiful as well but that does not have the original Argentine Character oor feeling.  The American (ballroom) and Finish tangos are variations of the International Tango; they are beautiful dances but of a different character as well.
 
I do not have any objection to the creation of other dances based in A.T., I just wanted to give my opinion in reference to Jack's question : "What is this? I am confused, is this tango?
 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI  Portland Milonga
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfeT8esFMUk Practica x exhibition to traditional tango music
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNdezMXlZgM  Chicho at Practica X exhibition to non traditional tango music
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GfTum67AQE Fabian Salas exhibition to traditional tango music
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL16h0rMmYU&feature=related
 
Fabian Salas exhibition to non traditional tango music
 
Respectfully, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

From jlrdouglas at mac.com  Thu Oct  8 11:59:53 2009
From: jlrdouglas at mac.com (Jessica Douglas)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 10:59:53 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving the character of the dance
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W419CBDA465F7D6F88A556F97CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W419CBDA465F7D6F88A556F97CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <725E3DB2-9570-4C0E-860F-7672D0188F9B@mac.com>

With not too much regret folks, I am saying goodbye to this list.
This latest of a thousand arguments over what is nuevo and whether it  
is evil convinces me that I should spend more time dancing (milonguero  
style, salon or nuevo depending on the music or the partner) and less  
time reading pointless list posts.

Enjoy your attempts to micro-classify what cannot be classified.  For  
me it is a huge waste of time.
Jessica.

From aron at milonga.hu  Thu Oct  8 12:29:06 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:29:06 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving the character of the dance
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W419CBDA465F7D6F88A556F97CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W419CBDA465F7D6F88A556F97CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ACE1352.5070306@milonga.hu>


> IMO (I am sure others may disagree) that particular form of dancing did not preserve the "character" of the dance, it looks totally foreign to me, something totally disconnected from its Argentine roots.  The moves are those of tango but neither the music or the dance itself gives the feeling orlooks like A. T. of any style that I know.(Trina points that some dancers do dance preserving the tango character and I agree, some of them do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservation

I believe this is the closest definition that may apply:

'the retention of cultural heritage for the future'

'Retention', 'heritage' and all this for 'the future' (which suggests it 
does exist now, but is already threatened so that it requires concious 
effort to keep some of it as it was)

So, no museum then?  :)

Obviously, museums are needed. You can see things from different eras. 
It is enlightening, it is inspiring.

However, I am not Amish, so living the past may not be for me. I guess 
this is true for many people. Nevertheless, this strong conservative 
rethoric ('nuevo is not tango', 'you need to dance a certain style a 
certain way') usually keeps such people in confusion, especially when 
they are relatively new to this dance. Quite a lot of these new people 
will turn away from tango as they can't find themselves in it and will 
find the petty bickering of dancers/teachers against the ideas 
represented by some other dancers/teachers repelling.

When we are debating about nuevo, I don't say you should not dance the 
way you want. I say exactly the opposite:  LET everyone decide how s/he 
wants to dance (decision is not between styles you predefined, it is a 
free choice of what and how to include). I usually never tell my 
students what 'style' I am teaching them - not unless they ask. Even 
then, I only say what people _usually_ say about it and how styles are 
_usually_ defined.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  8 13:08:38 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:08:38 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving the character of the dance
Message-ID: <SNT115-W425AAF3E55FEDC30C53BBC97CC0@phx.gbl>



Aron you say: "When we are debating about nuevo, I don't say you should not dance the way you want. I say exactly the opposite: LET everyone decide how s/he wants to dance (decision is not between styles you predefined, it is a free choice of what and how to include)."
 
Character is the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
 
You teach tango but you do not tell them the way they should dance, you let them dance the way they want to dance.
 
I have seen you dance, you dance Nuevo Tango but preserving the character of the A.T. you do not do movements with your body, arms or hips that do not belong to the A.T.
 
The good teacher knows how to prevent the beginner student from adopting "bad" habits.
 
When you start teaching, let's say milonga and you notice that your student walks bouncing up and down as many foreigners do, you have to prevent this "out of character" move from becoming a permanent bad habit, so you tell the student - do not bounce up and down - this is done to preserve the character of any dance, Rumba, Cha-cha, Samba, Polka, you name it.
 
I cannot allow a student dance tango as if it was Fox-trot or salsa or swing,
or dance swing as it was samba and I am sure you do not do it either.
 
To preserve the character of a dance does not mean that the dance is thretened.
 
I, as an instructor have to decide what I am going to teach, if I am going to teach tango I must teach tango, prevent and correct bad habits in my students.
 
On another subject it is "interesting" that when we discuss certain topics such as Tango styles or the feminine and masculine roles in tango or some other subjects some people invariable pick up their marbles and leave in disgust.
 
Have a nice day, Sergio
 
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 14:18:20 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving character, etc.
Message-ID: <821224.71341.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Right on, sistah!!  Shut up and dance, por favor.   Whatever style.  No importa.  Baila!!    Besos,  dnb


      

From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Oct  8 14:28:39 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:28:39 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com> <4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>
	<4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <000601ca4845$2bbd4cd0$8337e670$@com.au>

Aron wrote:

"I do not believe that the artificial separation (even if voluntary) 
solves anything - it only separates people. The solution would be to pay 
attention to very basic ethics of reciprocity. Do unto others as you 
would have them do unto you. Or rather: Bump into others as you would 
have them bump into you."

With all due respect to the author of the above, it's not the bumping that I
find the most objectionable, because as a fairly big lump of a guy, I could
out-bump most. It's the extra attention I have to divert from connection to
my partner and the music that I find painfully annoying. To feel that an
unpredictable missile is sharing the dance floor with me, triggers my combat
instincts. Which quite frankly doesn't help me find the tango moment. I'm of
the opinion that much of the extravagant movements displayed on the social
milonga floors, is some of the guys engaging in a form of pissing
competition. A very visual demonstration of their tango prowess. Not the
subtlety and depth to which I strive. Quite often I find it more peaceful to
vacate the floor in the middle of a dance than wait for my defences to be
ratcheted up to code red.

Anton


From vytis at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  8 16:54:48 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 07:54:48 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re:  Preserving the character of the dance
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS17C5FC1916F01F9E366F7BAECC0@phx.gbl>

I have to agree with Jessica Douglas and in a way, she is back leading me 
and I am following in her footsteps and herewith have modified how I receive 
messages from Tango-L.

I have found the discussions from Aron very thoughtful and have for the most 
part agreed with him.  Whereas the responses to his posts have been like 
boys engaged in a competition at the urinal.

More importantly, in the last few days I have been in correspondence with 
Dierdre which made me take stock on: nuevo,  life in BsAs, gringos and the 
dominance of leaders navel gazing on Tango-L, whereas all she wants is a 
bloody good dance.  Maybe one day Dierdre we can can catch-up and see if I 
can measure up.

So picking-up my marbles...........

V 


From aron at milonga.hu  Thu Oct  8 18:30:15 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:30:15 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] N.U.E.V.O.
In-Reply-To: <000601ca4845$2bbd4cd0$8337e670$@com.au>
References: <cbf.47af444c.37fe8d8c@aol.com>
	<4ACD395F.5080206@aymta.org>	<4ACD3E60.4000900@milonga.hu>
	<000601ca4845$2bbd4cd0$8337e670$@com.au>
Message-ID: <4ACE67F7.4080806@milonga.hu>

Dear Anton,

I see your point. But you may (also?) suffer of a civilizational 
'disease'. Many people create a concept of tango for themselves which is 
sort of an introvert concept. It is tango zen. The harmony in tango etc. 
This is obviously the result of western sped up lifestyle: you are 
looking for an island of peace in tango. I do not think that this is 
wrong. It is however neither entirely authentic nor the 'full' picture.
> out-bump most. It's the extra attention I have to divert from connection to
> my partner and the music that I find painfully annoying. To feel that an
>   
Navigation in a milonga is pretty straightforward. General 
counterclockwise path. You are only responsible for the path into the 
'forward' direction (on the counterclockwise path). Do not take steps 
outide your actual field of view, only make steps into space that is 
empty and that is not being taken by another couple at least for the 
next beat (this requires some anticipation based on the couple's curve 
and speed on the floor). Accelerate only as much so you can still stop 
for the end of the beat. (that together with the use empty space only 
'rule' makes it possible to do large or fast steps even in a crowd) Of 
course, if someone is travelling fast, it is much harder to anticipate 
what is going to happen - no problem there: it is then the speeder's 
problem to make sure you have ample time and information to judge. If 
not, see below...
> unpredictable missile is sharing the dance floor with me, triggers my combat
>   
If you are only 'afraid' of a collision then it may be just your Western 
instinct: when you go around BsAs for the first time (even on foot) most 
people have mortal fear, because nobody seems to be aware of your zone 
of personal comfort (closeness). After a few days it is natural that 
people are coming really close to you, but some people can't accept it 
even after years. It is a question of personality.

Nevertheless, this should not be mixed up with the situation when you 
need to actually stop, break hard or change direction because the other 
couple is a bad navigator - in which case you are absolutely right. My 
suggestion: tell them!
> milonga floors, is some of the guys engaging in a form of pissing
> competition. A very visual demonstration of their tango prowess. Not the
>   
Well, I think this type of showing off is a part of the game. Of course 
some people do it with style and charm, others act as human fireworks, 
which is also very Western (or Northern). Anyway, you should not be 
interested in them if you can do your own stuff at the same time. Most 
'firework' type dancers are not really preferred by the majority as 
partners...
> subtlety and depth to which I strive. Quite often I find it more peaceful to
>   
There you go. Stick to it, it is your style. As for the others, until 
they become a _physical_ obstacle, it is their dancing. If they are fast 
or use large steps, they will need very advanced navigational (and 
dancing) skills. If they don't have it, IMO just tell how it feels what 
they do. If you are the third to tell them this, they will listen...if 
you never tell them, they might never understand.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4491 (20091008) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



From tangoartist at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 19:28:45 2009
From: tangoartist at gmail.com (Kathryn Johns)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:28:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Preserving the character of the dance
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W425AAF3E55FEDC30C53BBC97CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W425AAF3E55FEDC30C53BBC97CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <370d16c10910081628s79d69ebao256e7b23126dd153@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe we are on the road to _deconstructing_tango and,in so doing,
it will,by itself, get back to it's origins...no _right_or_wrong_simply
the pleasure of reading another persons energy.

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Aron you say: "When we are debating about nuevo, I don't say you should not dance the way you want. I say exactly the opposite: LET everyone decide how s/he wants to dance (decision is not between styles you predefined, it is a free choice of what and how to include)."
>
> Character is the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
>
> You teach tango but you do not tell them the way they should dance, you let them dance the way they want to dance.
>
> I have seen you dance, you dance Nuevo Tango but preserving the character of the A.T. you do not do movements with your body, arms or hips that do not belong to the A.T.
>
> The good teacher knows how to prevent the beginner student from adopting "bad" habits.
>
> When you start teaching, let's say milonga and you notice that your student walks bouncing up and down as many foreigners do, you have to prevent this "out of character" move from becoming a permanent bad habit, so you tell the student - do not bounce up and down - this is done to preserve the character of any dance, Rumba, Cha-cha, Samba, Polka, you name it.
>
> I cannot allow a student dance tango as if it was Fox-trot or salsa or swing,
> or dance swing as it was samba and I am sure you do not do it either.
>
> To preserve the character of a dance does not mean that the dance is thretened.
>
> I, as an instructor have to decide what I am going to teach, if I am going to teach tango I must teach tango, prevent and correct bad habits in my students.
>
> On another subject it is "interesting" that when we discuss certain topics such as Tango styles or the feminine and masculine roles in tango or some other subjects some people invariable pick up their marbles and leave in disgust.
>
> Have a nice day, Sergio
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 00:42:24 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Toulouse--Part 4
Message-ID: <528273.65830.qm@web62502.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Tango in Toulouse--Part 4
July 2, 2009
10:00 PM

There is a tango concert-dance tonight at Le Bikini, a tropical-themed rock club with an outdoor  restaurant, a swimming pool, palm trees, and patio torches.  A poster of Vladimir Lenin by the entrance advises people to "dance hard, but drink in moderation!"

Janet goes inside the rock club to hear the warm-up band, Trio Entonces.  Robert and I pick a table at the outdoor garden and feast upon an amazing salad built on a decorated half-shell melon with skewers of beef, shrimp, and grilled vegetables arranged like the masts of Errol Flynn's flagship from Captain Blood.  We drink no rum nor sing no sailor's shanties, but with a glass of beer and a strong espresso, we are feeling jolly by the time the main event begins--Orquesta Tipica Color Tango, from Argentina.  

Led by Roberto Alvarez, once lead bandoneon with Osvaldo Pugliese's orchestra, Color Tango does for Pugliese what others have done for D'Arienzo and DiSarli.  Cynics call them a "copy-cat orchestra," but I gladly put such labels aside when the musicians play with such harmony, precision, and style.  Would you call The New York Philharmonic  a "copy-cat orchestra" because they play, note for note, the works of masters of the past?  

Finding no "service compris" written on the check, Robert and I leave a tip for our waiter, then enter the rock club. It has a medium-sized dance floor, made smaller by light and sound equipment, by tables and chairs, tango gear for sale, and a busy bar.  There is also a large, raised stage for the orchestra, with a smoke machine and mobile lighting.  The best views are from above--from the catwalk. 

In contrast to what I've seen at other milongas, where most people come to dance, here at Le Bikini, many people seem to want only to listen.  Nothing wrong with that!  But after the orchestra plays "La Yumba," Robert Alvarez puts down his bandoneon and tells the audience, in Spanish, that although he is deeply honored by their undivided attention, he would be honored even more "si se levantaran a bailar"-- if they would get up and dance!

Reluctantly, as if afraid of breaking eggs, the first couples rise tentatively to try out the dance floor.  Alvarez nods his encouragement, and others join.  And others.  And others.  The floor fills up fast.  Once the dancers are on their feet, the mood of the club changes completely.  The concert quickly becomes...something  else.

How do I describe the change?  I went to a bullfight once.  I've watched demolition derby on television.  The crowd at Le Bikini seems to have taken its cues from both.  The dancers brandish their boleos, galvanize their ganchos, heedless of the traffic around them.  From my perch on the catwalk, I can barely discern the line of dance, but I can make out multiple collisions.  I even witness a woman wind up on her back after tripping over the sound and light cables taped to the floor by the engineer's booth.  Madre de Dios!

So what do I do?   Le Bikini has awakened my Inner Pirate.  I run the Jolly Roger up the flagpole, climb down from the catwalk, and join in the brawl.  "Dance hard and fight in moderation!" as Lenin says.



Copyright 2009 by Randy Cook








From romerob at telusplanet.net  Fri Oct  9 01:08:05 2009
From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:08:05 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L]  Observations on "Nuevo"
Message-ID: <1255064885.4acec535aff16@legacywebmail.telus.net>


Shahrukh wrote among other things:
>
ALTERNATIVE TANGO [SIC] MUSIC: From the "one can dance anything to anything" 
school, an attempt to dance Tango to anything EXCEPT Tango music (techno or 
otherwise). Sorry, but this is an entirely gringo phenomenon. To the extent 
that it exists in Argentina at all, it's to cater to the Tango tourists 
who "learned" to expect this. I call them "excessively long cortinas," and they 
are most appropriate for doing what one does during cortinas (anything except 
dance Tango).
<

Humm, I do not think so.

Here is the introductory section of a tango dance book from 1916 by Nicanor 
Lima published in Buenos Aires, "Metodo Teorico Practico para bailar el Tango 
Argentino de  Salon"

translation:

"In the first part of this method, which is the fundamental part of the 
dance ..............no only facilitates the complete and perfect learning of 
our authentic and popular tango, but also
it serves as the base to learn different dances with out the need of an 
instructor. These are dances such as vals, polka, mazurka, schottisch, etc., 
marshalling all of the movements of the tango dance to the beat of the music of 
the dances described above.

The same figures of tango at the same time update the dance described above 
including the One Step and Two Step. This is because
they can be applied to any dance. This means speeding up or slowing down the 
execution of of the movements according to the beat of the music
dancers would want to apply said figures." 


From zpetrovic at cooltoad.com  Thu Oct  8 11:34:11 2009
From: zpetrovic at cooltoad.com (Zpetrovic)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:34:11 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Time signatures in tango music?
Message-ID: <1255012451.3072823308@as03.cooltoad.com>

Hello everyone,

I was wondering could you help me understand time signatures in tango music?
Is it 2/4, 4/4, 4/8 or...?

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 09:23:59 2009
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Time signatures in tango music?
In-Reply-To: <1255012451.3072823308@as03.cooltoad.com>
References: <1255012451.3072823308@as03.cooltoad.com>
Message-ID: <973864.35041.qm@web32007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A simple google search (or Tango-L search) would have, among others, yielded

http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2001/msg02011.html

Do take a look!

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================




________________________________
From: Zpetrovic <zpetrovic at cooltoad.com>
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 11:34:11 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Time signatures in tango music?

Hello everyone,

I was wondering could you help me understand time signatures in tango music?
Is it 2/4, 4/4, 4/8 or...?
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From politas at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 13:02:18 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:02:18 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] To the ladies on Tango-L - What makes for a good dance?
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS17C5FC1916F01F9E366F7BAECC0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-DS17C5FC1916F01F9E366F7BAECC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ACF6C9A.2050406@gmail.com>

Vince Bagusauskas wrote:
> More importantly, in the last few days I have been in correspondence with 
> Dierdre which made me take stock on: nuevo,  life in BsAs, gringos and the 
> dominance of leaders navel gazing on Tango-L, whereas all she wants is a 
> bloody good dance.  Maybe one day Dierdre we can can catch-up and see if I 
> can measure up.
>   
This is a good point. I can talk for hours about what it's like as a 
leader; what I'd like to hear from this list is what I can do to make 
things more enjoyable for the ladies I dance with. Here's a few 
questions to start things off. Replies from ladies/followers are 
particularly desired here.

How firm an embrace do you like? There's a big range between a firm hug 
and a gentle arm resting on your back. What's best, or what 
circumstances make different options right at the time?

Ganchos, colgadas, volcadas, etc - are they fun to be led into? How many 
in a dance is good?

What's better, a dance with lots of changes of direction and swirling 
around, a dance stepping only forward and side steps, but really 
following the rhythm, a mix of both, or some other focus?

Leaders get to choose the kind of dancing they like to do, and followers 
pretty much have to make do with what's being offered. So what exactly 
does make for a "bloody good dance"?

Myk,
in Canberra

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  9 13:08:58 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:08:58 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Observations on Nuevo
Message-ID: <SNT115-W10767F0D6911906C74189E97CB0@phx.gbl>


Romero always brings interesting tango historical elements, at this time he brings memories of the book on how to teach tango by Nicanor Lima published in 1916 with which I am familiar.
 
Mr. Lima says that you can use the Tango Choreography, steps or figures to dance to different types of music by adjusting the speed of the dance.
 
This is true for other dances as well, you can do Rumba, Cha-Cha, Fox-trot or tango to the same music, I frequently do that with good results.
 
In summary the tango steps can be danced to almost any music, what varies is the feeling.
 
It is always important to try to preserve the Character of the dance irrespective of the music one is dancing to.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
   
 
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 13:23:29 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Time signatures in Tango
Message-ID: <679951.48932.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As I understand it....since even one of the tango stations, here, in BA, is called "2 por 4".....seems there's the answer....dnb


      

From lukrasne at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 14:46:24 2009
From: lukrasne at yahoo.com (Lucille Krasne)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:46:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-E: NYC ESMERALDA'S-- SUN. OCT 11
Message-ID: <C6F4FD40.BE82%lukrasne@yahoo.com>

Esmeralda?s Tango & Tapas at Session 73 Sunday, Oct. 11--
DANCE 8 ?TIL LATE! 
(12:30 + or until the vacas come home!)
Ilene de Woodstock is on board to spin the platters.
Evelyn & Danny teach the pre-intermediate lesson (they are amazing), I?m
with beginners. $10 Admission includes classes --both at 7:00.

MARK YOUR CALENDARS NOW--THIS MINUTE-- FOR OCT. 25-THE 5TH
ANNIVERSARY of ESMERALDA?S TANGO & TAPAS & the 91ST BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION of
TANGUERO EXTRAORDINARIO, ALEJANDRO ?EL GRANDE? TURNEY!! & OUR ANNUAL COSTUME
EVENT THIS YEAR ENTITLED ?The PRACTICE Your COSTUME HALLOWEEN Party
& If FOLKS DON?T LIKE IT, YOU HAVE TIME to CHANGE MILONGA?

Abrazos, 
Lucila





From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  9 14:48:41 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:48:41 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Times signature in tango
Message-ID: <SNT115-W5537CF800761D4C96749DA97CB0@phx.gbl>



Initially,tango was written like the milonga in 2x4. This lasted till approximately   1915.
 
El Porte?ito - El esquinazo - are examples of early tangos written in 2x4. They are upbeat, happy, fast.
 
Tango Music has several periods 1895 -1917 is known as "La guardia vieja", it is a period of Tango-Milongas  .  Those early tangos were close to their ancestor : The Milonga.  
 
 Musicians of that period are Juan Maglio, Vicente Greco, Roberto Firpo, Eduardo Arolas, Julio de Caro.
 
1917-1924 end of La guardia Vieja till El Tango Cancion.
 
The notation changed to 4x8 . Tangos become calmer,slower and more expresive.
 
This change in notation caused the flute and guitar to be displaced from the orchestras.
 
Tangos are still written in 4x8.
 
Jorge Luis Borges said " la m?sica de tango est? tan conectada con el mundo rioplatense que cuando un compositor, de cualquier otra parte del mundo, pretende componer un tango ?descubre, no sin estupor, que ha urdido algo que nuestros o?dos no reconocen, que nuestra memoria no hospeda y que nuestro cuerpo rechaza?.
Esa caracter?stica fuertemente local del tango, imbricada con el ritmo y la musicalidad del lenguaje rioplatense, ha sido reiteradamente se?alada.
 
Jorge Luis Borges said " Tango music is so connected to the Rio de la Plata world,that when a composer, from any other place in the world, attempts to compose a tango, discovers with astonishment, that he has created something that our ears do not recognize, that our memory does not find,and that our body rejects.
 
This trongly local characteristic of tango music, associated to the rhythm and to the language musicality of that area has been mentioned many times. 

 
Sergio
  		 	   		  
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 15:36:00 2009
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:36:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Times signature in tango
Message-ID: <7204BE6C-6693-4A29-B103-B93AB0163EE1@gmail.com>

Sergio wrote:

 > Tangos are still written in 4x8.

I am not aware of very many new tangos (that are really tangos and not  
tango-rock fusion or offshoots of piazzolla) being written at all.

What are some examples?

- joe

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  9 15:43:42 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:43:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Notation correction
Message-ID: <SNT115-W1015209B047834667029A597CB0@phx.gbl>


I meant 4x4 and not 4x8   I apologize.
 
Some examples below . Those early tangos were also called  Tango'Milonga by some and Milonga by others.

 
El Porte?ito  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKvM3P0iNSs&feature=related 2x2
 
El Porte?ito  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIcVQAqITPQ
 
El Esquinazo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnkClwoSLKU  2x2
 
El Ingeniero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfeejNrQ2WE  4x4
 
Sergio 		 	   		  
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  9 15:58:41 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:58:41 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] new tangos
Message-ID: <SNT115-W5020AA63E7F9667539856C97CB0@phx.gbl>



Joe you say:  "I am not aware of very many new tangos (that are really tangos and not tango-rock fusion or offshoots of piazzolla) being written at all."
 
I entirely agree, what i meant is that there is no other notation than 4x4 up to the present time.
 
Tango music is associated so musch with the culture in the Rio de la Plata of earlier periods, that modern Argentines seem to be unable to create tangos like the old ones.
 
What a pity! no?
 
Sergio 		 	   		  
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  9 18:47:47 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:47:47 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Scores
Message-ID: <SNT115-W565497DD60766122D36BA97CB0@phx.gbl>


I went to check the scores of many tangos, it looks that all the tangos before 1915 were written in 2x4 the same as the milongas.  Aftterwards tangos were written in 4x4 or 4x8 but many in 2x4 as well.
 
4x8 Que falta que me haces - Musician Armando Pointier 
 
2x4 Malvon - written in 1944 by Osmar Maderna 
 
2x4 Ma?ana Zarpa un barco ' 1942 ' Lucio De Mare
 
2x4 Mano a Mano - 1923 - Carlos Gardel
 
4x8 Maria - 1945 - Anibal Troilo 
 
4x8 Bahia Blanca - Carlos Di sarli  -  
 
2x4 El Porte?ito
 
2x4 El Entreriano
 
2x4 Derecho Viejo
 
Sergio 		 	   		  
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 00:53:19 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Scores
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W565497DD60766122D36BA97CB0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W565497DD60766122D36BA97CB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <499362.14938.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> 
> I went to check the scores of many tangos, it looks that all the tangos before 
> 1915 were written in 2x4 the same as the milongas.? Aftterwards tangos were 
> written in 4x4 or 4x8 but many in 2x4 as well.
> 

Just wondering, without checking the scores, is it possible to recognise the 
difference between 4x4 and 4x8? And is the second number, i.e. x4 or x8?
of any use to dancers?

Jack


      


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Mon Oct 12 14:28:51 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:28:51 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Misc:Missing Magic
Message-ID: <4AD37563.5070803@shahrukhmerchant.com>

About a week ago, Robin Tara wrote:

> You know, I danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires, New York, Montreal, San
> Francisco, Boston and London beginning 1993.
> ...
> There was a magic then that has been missing for me in today's milongas.
> ...
> Things began to change drastically in the milongas of Buenos Aires around
> the time of the crash. (2001/2002)

I was actually expecting more responses to this email, well more than 
zero anyway. But I did want to respond myself since I identified a lot 
with what Robin says.

> So in about 2 years time, the balance of tourists to locals in
> the dance halls reversed completely.

This has no doubt change the dynamics significantly--the observers, by 
their presence and especially their vast numbers, have changed what it 
is that they have come to observe. Whether this is a good thing or a bad 
thing is besides the point (well, a different discussion, anyway), but 
it certainly has changed things.

> The milongas feel so different to me these days. 
...
> a group of men who
> really have been in the milongs for years, but rarely get up to dance. The
> there are the group from some European capital, a bunch of older folks from
> the midwest, a table of local guys who don't dance very well, a group of
> local women who don't dance very well. Lurking around the edges, men who
> can't catch anybody's eye and have decided to prey on the unsuspecting and
> longing to dance, middle aged women from the US. It just lacks some sort of
> mystery.

And depending on which milonga you go to, some of what you describe may 
not apply, or may apply with different demographics, but you're right 
that there was some sort of *something* that is now missing.

> Is it all because I see it more clearly now? Was it always this way and I
> was too enraptured to notice? No, I'm sure it was more full of the promise
> of adventure back then.

Ah, this is the question isn't it? "Did the world really change around 
me, or did my perception of the world change?" I drafted a similar 
article for Tango-L some months ago, let it sit on my desktop for 
several days while I tinkered with it, trying to convey satisfactorily 
what I wanted to say, but was never entirely satisfied with it, and so 
deleted it. But my conclusion was essentially the same: No, the change 
is real.

> Oh, I'm just rambling

I'm glad you posted this article even though you seemed to have had a 
similar problem managing to express the feeling to your satisfaction.

I'm guessing that, at this point, the majority of list members were not 
dancing in Buenos Aires at regular milongas (i.e., not counting just 
visiting for festivals) on a semi-regular basis pre-2001. But there is 
probably a significant minority who were. What's your feeling about this 
change? Do you dance less often in Buenos Aires for reasons you 
attribute to this change?

Shahrukh

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 15:04:50 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Misc:Missing Magic
In-Reply-To: <4AD37563.5070803@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <70.14541.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 10/12/09, Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:
I'm guessing that, at this point, the majority of list members were not 
dancing in Buenos Aires at regular milongas (i.e., not counting just 
visiting for festivals) on a semi-regular basis pre-2001. But there is 
probably a significant minority who were. What's your feeling about this 
change? Do you dance less often in Buenos Aires for reasons you 
attribute to this change?


Without a doubt. ?I too, have had problems trying to communicate the feeling, but I have come up with this: ?The thrill is gone. ?Gone are the days of discovering and being discovered by excellent dancers; from having spirited discussions with the local women about the dancers we are watching; ?of going out to dinner with a group of enthusiasts both local and visiting; of being asked to go to a specific milonga later in the week to continue dancing with a leader I have just met. ?Now, I am older, wider and not so spritely as I was back in 1996 when I first went to BsAs and so I attribute part of the malaise to that. ?But I also sense that I am no longer looked upon as a dance partner but rather as a source of funds - either for lessons, taxi accompaniment, shoe sales, or a visa to the US. ?Things have gotten much more commercial and less social. ?New visiting faces are getting lots of attention even if they are terrible dancers. And...my old
 friends are dying out, unable to fund a daily trip to the milongas, or just too creaky to dance well.
I get more excellent dances at a festival than I do in BsAs. ?Will I continue to make an annual trip? ?Probably. ?But I will limit my dancing to 3-4 days a week, mostly afternoon milongas. ?I will visit with friends, enjoy the restaurants, the theaters, and the vibe of a big city. ?I am unlikely to buy any more tango shoes as the quality has plummeted even with my favorite brand and I am unwilling to continue to pay the special gringo price after purchasing 12 pairs of those shoes.?
Should you go to BsAs if you are a tango dancer? ?Definitely. ?It will be new and wonderful and thrilling to you and you will feel the flavor of tango everywhere you go if you open your heart to it. ?Some night a cab driver will sing tangos to you all the way home and it will be beautiful. ?Some day you will chat up a woman in the grocery store who will tell you about her father, a famous violinist, who invited all the tango greats to his home for Sunday dinners. ?And you will see folks like Milena Plebs dancing on a concrete basketball court in a very blue collar part of the city. ?But when some of us old-timers tell you, "You should have been here before....", you will regret you did not come earlier. ?
NancyAnnual visitor for 13 years


      

From macfroggy at aol.com  Mon Oct 12 15:41:27 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:41:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Misc:Missing Magic
In-Reply-To: <4AD37563.5070803@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <4AD37563.5070803@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <8CC198B1F342AE7-87A0-E0C6@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com>


 
"Did the world really change around 
me, or did my perception of the world change?"


 That's the crux of the question, isn't it?
Please tell me what in this world has not changed since 1993?

Whether it's the same as it was "then" or not isn't relevant, especially to people who came to tango much later. 

What is important still is that Buenos Aires offers a depth, an understanding, an immersion in tango that doesn't exist anywhere else. Like Nancy said, where a taxi driver will sing you his favorite tango at 2 a.m.

Take me, for example: last week on an excursion with tango tour clients to La Boca, where I've been a million times, the truth of living in a "conventillo" finally hit me--I could really see clearly what it meant to sing about the hard and crowded life there, a popular tango theme. There is always something to discover new here about tango.

Sure, it's not as it was in 1997 on my first trip here, when foreign dancers were a novelty. Maybe middle-aged foreign women are a dime-a-dozen today, and we are less "special" than we once were and are treated more like we are "back home." After dancing tango for a decade or more, "we" are also different. This nostalgia for what used to be, that life, people, things, milongas aren't what they once were, is very tango!

But Buenos Aires will always be the Mecca of Tango.
And every serious dancer will make the pilgrimage one day.
It's worth it.

http://tangocherie.blogspot.com 



 




From keith at totango.net  Mon Oct 12 15:55:38 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:55:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
Message-ID: <60144.65.93.55.165.1255377338.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>

Over the last few years, I have been ruminating on these same thoughts and
perceptions.

Periodically, my concern has been quieted when I've had a conversation
about it with dancers in other places ... and they say they having been
feeling the same things.

Whew! It ain't just me.

I like it that everyone seems to be keenly aware of what part the
subjective might play in the perception. Thinking that through must surely
be important.

This thought came up recently:

It's been about 4 years that this kind-of malaise has been around.

That's a cycle.

We can be through it, perhaps. A new cycle might be rendering itself right
now.

I can believe that from what I sense/intuit.

Well, good to have hope after what has been a dark period. For people like
us.

It's also good to know there is a multitude of people who are new to it
and don't know what we have been suffering.

Their time might come in 4 years!

;-)


Quality - not quantity!


k







From tangobliss at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 16:52:22 2009
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:52:22 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Portland Tangofest Finds
References: <e78b0bb70910120750w4d966ba0rc407e964a318631f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7235EFD0-FE23-4F64-A7F0-C3EFC579A631@gmail.com>

I thought I'd be a good samaritan and pass this along to anyone that  
may still be looking for their things that they lost at PDX TangoFest.

Please pass this along to everyone you know that went...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Begin forwarded message:

From: Marion Newlevant <marion.newlevant at gmail.com>
Date: October 12, 2009 10:50:48 AM EDT
To: portango-a at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [portango-a] Tangofest Finds

I will bring the bin of finds to PPAA on Monday, and Norse on
Wednesday. Contact me if you think I have something of yours. --
Marion

GLASSES & MISC
2 pair metal frame glasses, probably prescription
black wrap around sunglasses
large black hair clip
Notebook w/ notes and Micron pen (Berlin 2). Lenora's
long gray knit scarf
Fuscia shawl (Amalie's)

WATER BOTTLES
1 liter purple nalgene water bottle
orange plastic water bottle
white inuslated bike water bottle (Sun night @ Norse)
Metal insulated cup w/ rubber grip
Gold metal WWF bottle w/ mini-carabeener
blue plastic water bottle
large green metal water bottle, McKinley

SHOES & SOCKS
Pink bag w/ pair mens sneaker style dance shoes (Sun night @ Norse).
Also comb, safety pins, 'magic' buckles
Black thong sandles with beaded straps
blue & silver neotango tango heels (Grand Ball)
pair black clogs with 2" heel (Sofft)
Pink Nordstroms bag, empty
Black 'Matevo' shoe bag, empty
Striped knee sock, left at Lenora's
one brown sock
pair long black nylon socks
one tiny nylon foot-sock

WOMEN'S CLOTHES
Short fuzzy black Benneton sweater, button @ neck & snaps at waist
J-Crew small black cotton sweater, small buttons
pink & purple light weight striped top w/ hood
Black knit top w/ sparkles around the neck
black skirt, tight

MEN'S CLOTHES
Men's white knit striped shirt, Ping (Sun night @ Norse)
Men's small black & blue bicycle jacket
Blue Columbia mens windbreaker, with hood
Pink cap with bill, 'BADGERS', Wed Paradise.


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From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 20:37:57 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Scores
Message-ID: <207034.77287.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

>Just wondering, without checking the scores, is it possible to recognise the 
>difference between 4x4 and 4x8?

No.


      

From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 23:37:42 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:37:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Toulouse-Part 5
Message-ID: <216292.956.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Tango in Toulouse--Part 5
Friday, July 3, 2009
10:00 PM

Espace Cultural Lalande is a community center on the north side of Toulouse.???Tonight's concert-dance at Lalande features La Mariposa, a local octet which plays tango in the styles of Di Sarli and D'Arienzo.? Four of the musicians are women, including the pianist, the clarinetist, one of the violins, and the double bass player.? They perform on a stage at the edge of? a basketball court, which has plenty of room on the sides for tables and chairs.? I am reminded of the famous milongas on the outskirts of Buenos Aires, such as Sunderland and Pial.? But there is a difference.? Sunderland's court is stone.? This one in Toulouse has a spring loaded floor.

Lalande may have a spring-loaded basketball court, but it does not have air conditioning.? The night is brutally hot.? The Toulousaines say they have a spell or two of weather like this each summer, but normally in August.? This week's heat wave is unseasonably early.? I buy a "Tangopostale" fan from one of the local tango associations, which has its table near the entrance.? The fan features a silhouette of an airplane (representing the Aeropostale mail service that ran between Toulouse and Buenos Aires in the 1930's) and a pair of dancers (representing the cultural links between the two cities).? I loan the fan to Janet, who uses it until she starts to dance, then use it myself, before loaning it to some other people seated in our section of bleachers.? I eventually get it back.? I will take it home in my luggage--one of my few souvenirs, excepting a camera and notebooks. 

Before La Mariposa takes the stage, we listen to a tango duo, followed by a trio.? Music is as much a part of the tango scene in Toulouse as the dancing is.? The musicians encourage the audience to dance, and a few couples oblige them, but this music is suited for listening, not for dancing.? In Buenos Aires, they would be playing in a small bar or club, not on a basketball court.

Then the octet, La Mariposa, arrives to perform.? I am very impressed.? They have a full, resonant sound that adapts itself equally well to the crisp compas of D'Arienzo's arrangements as to the smooth elegance of Di Sarli's.? The musicians have been playing together in Toulouse since 1998.? We have nothing to compare with them in San Francisco.

After the virtual riot at Le Bikini last night, I am apprehensive how the dancing here will be.? But Le Bikini was a relatively small space compared to Lalande.? Even when the floor fills up with dancers, it doesn't seem crowded.? People have room for their "show tango" moves.? They can lead their high boleos and back sacadas without endangering other dancers.? The floor craft is still chaotic, however.? Couples cut in and out of lanes like jack rabbits.? My partners vary in skill, but seem to appreciate my quiet, simple style of dancing.? When the traffic is bad, I dance like I drive--defensively. 

Then they clear the floor for a demonstration dance.? The teachers from the local tango associations take their partners onto the court and form a big circle.? The music begins, and the teachers dance.? Watching them,? I see lots of fancy steps, but little of the essence of social tango--that intimate element called "connection."? And I begin to understand why the dancing in Toulouse is so inferior to the music.? If these performers are the teachers, their students are going to try to dance the same way--and the dance floor will be overly "busy"--meaning there is too much unfocused activity.? Dance, like the other arts, exists as much in the pauses and empty spaces as it does in the steps.

One of the teachers knows this.? I can tell by watching him.? He is a stocky, bald-headed man who some of the people say is French, others say is Argentine.? He stands out like swan among the geese.? He flows across the floor as if his feet were dipped in oil.? And he knows how to pause, how to create those spaces that fill the dance with meaning, and without which it is nothing more than jazzercize, or tango-aerobics.? This gentlemen can do the fancy stuff as well as any of the others do, but without seeming to be showing off.???If I were living in Toulouse, he would be my teacher.

Many people leave after the demonstration dance is over.? Those who remain are among the better dancers --the people who come out when the rough crowd goes home.???I find an exceptionally attractive partner.? I didn?t choose her for her looks, however (well, not entirely), but for her skill.? She speaks English, and tells me that she has come down from Paris just for the festival.? After dancing close embrace for a while, we open up a little,? just enough to experiment with some of the modern tango moves--the hour and the space seem right for them.? ? 

 After the Parisienne, I rest for a while.? There is a little coquette at one of the cafe tables who has been playing cabaceo with various men, while her husband converses with a friend.? I nod, and she smiles, but doesn't rise from her seat.? Feeling my way into a situation that is more French than Argentine, I go over and ask her husband for permission to dance with his wife.? Bien sur.? Pas de probleme.? She isn't a very experienced follower, but has a playful, catlike quality that excuses all her missteps.? She takes my leads as the merest of suggestions, and plays with them as if they were a? ball of string, until I just have to laugh.???

The ride home through the streets of north Toulouse is almost as tortuous as that escapade on the way to Le Bikini, but Janet, Robert, and I eventually manage to unravel the tangle of wrong turns and detours that lie between us and our little hotel.? It is graduation night in the Toulouse public schools.? The graduates are partying boisterously at Place Belfort down the street.? They seem to be breaking a lot of bottles.? Our windows are open because of the heat.? My companions tell me in the morning that their sleep was fitful, but I dream happily of a polished Parisienne and a cat lady whose playfulness makes me purr.



Copyright 2009 by Randy Cook






From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Oct 13 08:00:09 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:00:09 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
Message-ID: <4AD46BC9.6070705@shahrukhmerchant.com>

ECSEDY ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> says:

> I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using 
> large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a 
> misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time 
> outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of 
> the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate 
> without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on 
> the planet.

La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that 
Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent) 
posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst 
possible navigators on the planet. Oh, but just for the record, not 
because they are doing "nuevo" per se (even though they are mostly young 
dancers, largely Argentine) but because they are mostly beginners 
dancing the trademark La Viruta style of looking down at their feet 
instead of where they are going. In fact I would sometimes mutter, 
"Viruteros" when such a couple (at a different milonga) would bump into 
me (or into my protectively outstretched arm) after the man took 2 back 
steps in a row against line of dance without looking. And I'd generally 
get a knowing nod and smile from my partner.

I stopped going to La Viruta in large part because of this 
"bump-a-tanguero" phenomenon (the dancers there are good natured, I will 
say, so couples who bump into each other smile rather than glare at each 
other), so I don't have recent experience: perhaps all the good 
navigators were merely waiting for me to leave before they started going 
there? :-)

Shahrukh

From zpetrovic at cooltoad.com  Sat Oct 10 09:57:06 2009
From: zpetrovic at cooltoad.com (Zpetrovic)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:57:06 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Parallel to cross system - different ways?
Message-ID: <1255179426.3545162860@as03.cooltoad.com>

Hello,

Thank you for your answers on time signatures. It seems to me that is a
complicated musical issue, so I’ll just focus on dancing. Since I have been
reading posts on tango l for days let me just say it is a great experience to
learn from those about everything connected to tango. And I apologize for my
English, it is not very good.
I have been dancing tango for over two years now and just love music, motions,
embrace, artistic expression and different styles – everything about it.
Now I have a question about different ways to lead from parallel to cross
system? Maybe it’s a good idea to explain my experience about it using the
example of 8-count basic figure with a change at step 2 for a leader. First
way I lead it was keeping the upper part of the body still while changing foot
at 2, so that follower will feel the weight change but not respond to it since
she follows the movements of leaders torso.
Second way used was keeping the entire body as a whole (so naturally when I do
the weight change at 2 followers understand it as a signal to transfer weight
at 2 with me) and not giving the follower time to transfer weight but quickly
leading the next step. 
Third way was lifting the left side of follower’s torso slightly so she could
understand not to change at 2. For lifting I used breathing and/or leaning my
body slightly to left. 
Fourth way was to lose contact with follower with my right arm (and with my
torso if we danced in chest contact) so only contact that remained was one
with my left hand and her right hand. Then, making my left arm not in firm
position with my torso I could move my body without transferring energy of
motion to follower.
Could you share some thoughts about this from your experience? Which way you
consider best and why? If none, which one it is? Which way is more appropriate
for social dancing and which one for competitions? Are there any other ways of
doing this? Should I use one way when music is fast, and another one when it
is slow?

All the best
Z.

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 09:16:09 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
In-Reply-To: <60144.65.93.55.165.1255377338.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>
Message-ID: <867810.88950.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 10/12/09, Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net> wrote:

> 
> This thought came up recently:
> 
> It's been about 4 years that this kind-of malaise has been
> around.
> 
> That's a cycle.

Was that the time of the nightclub fire?  I've heard it said that that event really changed the milongas.  When the clubs were closed, people found other things to do and some didn't go back to the milongas.  When people went back they may have changed where they went.  No doubt the success of CITA and the World Championships would have brought in more foreigners and changed the mix, as well.

When Daniel Trenner taught here, he surprised us with some of his take on dancing there thirty years ago.  Like the women holding up the man in the embrace.  Women doing ochos pretty much automatically once they got started and not stopping until they were asked to do something else.  I could see that happening in an environment where people were trying to be social with each other as opposed to being "correct".

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From robinctara at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 13:50:31 2009
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:50:31 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
In-Reply-To: <867810.88950.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <60144.65.93.55.165.1255377338.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>
	<867810.88950.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860910131050n780b7273k217fb1a73c028f51@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Cherie, Nancy, Shahrukh, Keith, Nina and others who wrote off list
with comments on this thread.
You've all been around this scene for a long  time and have experienced,
more or less what I was getting at.

I want to apologize to anyone for whom my posting seemed like an admonition
to forego the tango  experience in Buenos Aires.  Or to imply that going to
BA these days won't thrill you at all. Both Cherie and Nancy described the
kind of magical experiences that still exist there.

As is always the case, we bring ourselves and all our foibles and experience
to the milonga with us. Many have written about this much better than I can,
so I admit that much of my dismay at the milongas these days is of my own
making. The other is that we have lost many of the "tipos" that made the
milongas fun. Think of Pupi, Omar and Gavito, to name a few. Not to mention
the old milongueros who are leaving the dance floors because of illness,
poverty or death.

Hope you'll all understand that it makes me sad, that;s all.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:41 PM, <macfroggy at aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Did the world really change around
> me, or did my perception of the world change?"
>
>
>
> Sure, it's not as it was in 1997 on my first trip here, when foreign
> dancers were a novelty. Maybe middle-aged foreign women are a dime-a-dozen
> today, and we are less "special" than we once were and are treated more like
> we are "back home." After dancing tango for a decade or more, "we" are also
> different. This nostalgia for what used to be, that life, people, things,
> milongas aren't what they once were, is very tango!
>
> But Buenos Aires will always be the Mecca of Tango.
> And every serious dancer will make the pilgrimage one day.
> It's worth it.
>

From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Tue Oct 13 14:13:25 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860910131050n780b7273k217fb1a73c028f51@mail.gmail.com>
References: <60144.65.93.55.165.1255377338.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>
	<867810.88950.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<9e1cc4860910131050n780b7273k217fb1a73c028f51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <827407.66515.qm@web46009.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

We live in the present . 
Our ego clings to the past and our mind tries to hide into the future because it does not like a present continuous as it happens to be.
If we can dance at the dancing floor, ?and leave the mind at the wardrobe , there is no missing magic. 
Our mind makes stickers of everything we thnk of , what we are, what we wear , what we look like, how we dance, how we were , how we used to look like. 
We need to see the mind as? ourself a ?witness within a process of thought , ?and then the mind will atone (with some complaining , yes , but will atone). And we dance , here and now.
alberto




________________________________
De: robin tara <robinctara at gmail.com>
Para: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
CC: Tango-L <tango-l at mit.edu>
Enviado: mar, octubre 13, 2009 2:50:31 PM
Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Missing Magic

Thanks Cherie, Nancy, Shahrukh, Keith, Nina and others who wrote off list
with comments on this thread.
You've all been around this scene for a long? time and have experienced,
more or less what I was getting at.

I want to apologize to anyone for whom my posting seemed like an admonition
to forego the tango? experience in Buenos Aires.? Or to imply that going to
BA these days won't thrill you at all. Both Cherie and Nancy described the
kind of magical experiences that still exist there.

As is always the case, we bring ourselves and all our foibles and experience
to the milonga with us. Many have written about this much better than I can,
so I admit that much of my dismay at the milongas these days is of my own
making.. The other is that we have lost many of the "tipos" that made the
milongas fun. Think of Pupi, Omar and Gavito, to name a few. Not to mention
the old milongueros who are leaving the dance floors because of illness,
poverty or death.

Hope you'll all understand that it makes me sad, that;s all.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:41 PM, <macfroggy at aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Did the world really change around
> me, or did my perception of the world change?"
>
>
>
> Sure, it's not as it was in 1997 on my first trip here, when foreign
> dancers were a novelty. Maybe middle-aged foreign women are a dime-a-dozen
> today, and we are less "special" than we once were and are treated more like
> we are "back home." After dancing tango for a decade or more, "we" are also
> different. This nostalgia for what used to be, that life, people, things,
> milongas aren't what they once were, is very tango!
>
> But Buenos Aires will always be the Mecca of Tango.
> And every serious dancer will make the pilgrimage one day.
> It's worth it.
>
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/

From jocelynpaine at gci.net  Tue Oct 13 12:33:42 2009
From: jocelynpaine at gci.net (Jocelyn Paine)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:33:42 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] resubmitting in plain text
Message-ID: <DD03147E-5655-4FAC-AA38-66914A1D1A85@gci.net>

Alistair Macaulay, the dance critic of the NY Times, has a blushing  
rave of Gabriel Miss? and Natalia Hills in his piece about the  
upcoming NYC fall dance events. It is worth listening to the  
multimedia link to get the audio expanded version and hear his  
enthusiasm. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/arts/dance/13maca.html  
For a non-tango dancer (I'm presuming) he shows a moderately good  
appreciation of the dance. His review of them at the Vail  
International Dance Festival is even more breathlessly impressed.  
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/arts/dance/11evenings.html? 
_r=1&scp=1&sq=review%20tango%20%20vail%20international%20dance% 
20festival&st=cse <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/arts/dance/ 
11evenings.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=review%20tango%20%20vail%20international 
%20dance%20festival&st=cse>

What impresses me is that Macaulay is criticizing tango in the  
context of the larger forum of the dance world, up against other  
forms of dance, and still singles Miss? and tango out!! Finally, a  
recognition not tangled up with musings on the sensuality, passion,  
erotic lure, etc. (though he pants a little about Hills' dress), but  
more about the athleticism, the precision, the training, the skill.

Jocelyn


From rockies at comcast.net  Tue Oct 13 16:38:01 2009
From: rockies at comcast.net (Randy Thomas)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:38:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tango-L] Portland house for rent
In-Reply-To: <1764219315.3771081255466011188.JavaMail.root@sz0157a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <820363185.3773801255466281269.JavaMail.root@sz0157a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>


Hi, 

I know it's slightly off topic, but if there is anyone interested in renting a beautiful 3 BR house (with hot tub! great for sore feet ladies!) in Portland to come tango, feel free to contact me. I'd like to find at least a 3 month rental, although you would probably have to have 3 people. It can be fully furnished if desired. It's about 10 minutes to all milongas in Portland, and close to transit. Great home in a great area. Please see http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/apa/1419907905.html 

Thanks, and Abrazos! 

Randy 



From kglass02 at centurytel.net  Tue Oct 13 18:33:41 2009
From: kglass02 at centurytel.net (Karen Whitesell)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:33:41 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Retiring Meet in the Middle
Message-ID: <146C61C288A44533800EFFA365DEFFD2@karensbrain>

Dear tango friends,

Just so you know, if you were not here, you missed the last Meet in the 
Middle Tango Festival in Mt Vernon, Missouri.  It was 6 years running, and 
this and the last few years, I was running out of steam.

I opened in 2000, had my first milonga, and in 2004, my first festival. I 
have made hundreds of friends and exposed hundreds of people to the power of 
tango.

I can say I created a very successful event, but did not create a local 
community, big enough to support the effort.  You could say I was a 
successful failure.

So I am not the promoter anymore, just the dancer.  I just wanted to dance, 
but had to promote it to do so. This is a commonality with individuals far 
from major cities.  Thank goodness it is growing everywhere and it is 
continuing to be easier to reach some tango somewhere. In my 12 years of 
tango, the desert has bloomed.

I am offering my building for sale, hopefully bought by a tango couple. 
That would make a lot of people happy, to get to tango again in a most 
beautiful place.  Watch Tango-A for more about the specks of the building 
for sale.

That's a great feeling to once again join in on discussions like I could do 
before becoming a promoter. Writing to Tango-A was just business, Tango-L is 
fun.

If the building doesn't sell, the ballroom becomes private space.  But, 
we'll roll up the rug if you are passing through.

I'll be traveling to tango.  Hope to see you on distant floors somewhere.

Karen 



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Oct 13 22:05:49 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:05:49 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
References: <4AD46BC9.6070705@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <AFA69B37F3EE4A75BC40831AA8282DD8@michaelditkoff>

Shahrukh:
Not that I want to turn this into a competition, but on my trip to BA, 
Gricel was the worst. Navigation??? There should have been a lighthouse and 
buoys on the floor to mark the channel with a foghorn for emphasis. On top 
of the navigation problems, the tables were so close to each other, it was 
difficult to get out from your table and go to the dance floor.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shahrukh Merchant" <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
>
> La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that 
> Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent) 
> posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst  possible 
> navigators on the planet.
>
> Shahrukh
> 

From keith at totango.net  Wed Oct 14 01:11:40 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:11:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic Thread
Message-ID: <60767.65.93.55.165.1255497100.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>

So, I'm into tango for 20 years. I swear I'm starting to get it!       ;-)

At least, I can't help but feeling things are being revealed. That's why
I'm always on my knees ... a lot going on that one such as me might never
get. Important to pay attention. I look up a lot to try to get it.


Chords have been struck in this thread.

If there is a soft, reflective, tender memory of a slightly better time
for dancers being talked about in the corners, I hope - WE hope - not to
be jumped on.

I'm damn sure this happened to people in the 50's and 60's, if it hasn't
been the case through the entire history of tango.

Things change. Time moves on. No problem. The way of life.

But I'm sure everyone with a tango heart wants to stand on the shoulders
of those who went before.

A person in their 80's would be allowed to say, Oh - I miss the times when
...

Even though they would be right there for going out tonight and get a glow
on if things were conducive.

Well, younger people have the same privilege. You know tango tango, you
can say it. It's just an expression of a personal feeling. Allowed.

Appreciated by others who share it.

My sense is that there's no want to hold back progression or change or
movement in new directions; just a fond hope that a certain community of
spirit won't disappear if things start running.




















From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 01:11:43 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:11:43 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Parallel to cross system - different ways?
In-Reply-To: <1255179426.3545162860@as03.cooltoad.com>
References: <1255179426.3545162860@as03.cooltoad.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910132211w35b7331ap36d43a702a11c563@mail.gmail.com>

Lifting the follower's left side (your third option) works, but more
experienced followers find it cheating. Essentially you are lifting
her so far that her left foot cannot reach the floor, so you are
limiting her moves, even for one "quick" beat.

The fourth option - to lose contact - is breaking the connection, so I
wouldn't even discuss it on a respectable tango list :)

I am not sure how your second option could work at all. You lead her
to change weight, but before she actually changes that you are already
leading a step back? This, IMO, requires some very precise and quick
timing, and I fail to see how this could improves the dance at all.

The way I explain it is this - you are doing a weight change. You
either want the follower to change her weight with you (say, step 8 of
the OCB), or you don't. To have her change weight with you, close your
feet, switch the weight to the free foot and make a pronounced move
down with the appropriate shoulder. To have her not switch the weight,
keep the shoulders level.

Hope this helps,

Sergey

May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )



On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Zpetrovic <zpetrovic at cooltoad.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for your answers on time signatures. It seems to me that is a
> complicated musical issue, so I?ll just focus on dancing. Since I have been
> reading posts on tango l for days let me just say it is a great experience to
> learn from those about everything connected to tango. And I apologize for my
> English, it is not very good.
> I have been dancing tango for over two years now and just love music, motions,
> embrace, artistic expression and different styles ? everything about it.
> Now I have a question about different ways to lead from parallel to cross
> system? Maybe it?s a good idea to explain my experience about it using the
> example of 8-count basic figure with a change at step 2 for a leader. First
> way I lead it was keeping the upper part of the body still while changing foot
> at 2, so that follower will feel the weight change but not respond to it since
> she follows the movements of leaders torso.
> Second way used was keeping the entire body as a whole (so naturally when I do
> the weight change at 2 followers understand it as a signal to transfer weight
> at 2 with me) and not giving the follower time to transfer weight but quickly
> leading the next step.
> Third way was lifting the left side of follower?s torso slightly so she could
> understand not to change at 2. For lifting I used breathing and/or leaning my
> body slightly to left.
> Fourth way was to lose contact with follower with my right arm (and with my
> torso if we danced in chest contact) so only contact that remained was one
> with my left hand and her right hand. Then, making my left arm not in firm
> position with my torso I could move my body without transferring energy of
> motion to follower.
> Could you share some thoughts about this from your experience? Which way you
> consider best and why? If none, which one it is? Which way is more appropriate
> for social dancing and which one for competitions? Are there any other ways of
> doing this? Should I use one way when music is fast, and another one when it
> is slow?
>
> All the best
> Z.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>


From don at aymta.org  Wed Oct 14 16:26:56 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:26:56 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1505.1255536695.14579.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1505.1255536695.14579.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4AD63410.1060601@aymta.org>

?So what happened to Montevideo?  It is strangely absent from Tango-l ...

Don

Shahrukh Merchant wrote:

> About a week ago, Robin Tara wrote:
>>  You know, I danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires, New York, Montreal, San
>> > Francisco, Boston and London beginning 1993.
>> > ...
>> > There was a magic then that has been missing for me in today's milongas.
>> > ...
>> > Things began to change drastically in the milongas of Buenos Aires around
>> > the time of the crash. (2001/2002)
>>     


From esjune at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 14 19:32:55 2009
From: esjune at hotmail.com (June es)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:32:55 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] To the ladies on Tango-L - What makes for a good
	dance?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1505.1255536695.14579.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1505.1255536695.14579.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BLU149-W18BE428D22C0F97E6B346CCDC60@phx.gbl>


Myk, your questions deserve some response. Here's my humble opinion.

Embrace. 
1. When a leader's embrace is gentle but firm, this provides a sense of security to the follower. When a follower feels secure, that person can follow you better. Gentle and firm sound like a paradoxical situation but I think of being a baby held in someone's arms and feeling secure because the hold is gentle but firm. 
2. I also like an embrace that is flexible, allowing the follower to move within the framed space, even in a close embrace. Let me suggest that you think how you like to be held for three minutes or so, and you get the idea that you must be allowed to breath in and out freely when you are in that hold. I always imagine the bandoneon's expansion and compression which is undoubtedly an exaggerated way of looking at how the embracing arm can allow the framed space (and the follower in it) to "breath".

Fun moves. 
They are fun, but the leader must gauge the follower's ability to execute the moves without injury to both dancers and those around them. I enjoy them myself but only if I am confident that the leader has the correct timing and stability to support me. Skill is required from both dancers.

Music, music, music. 
This factor determines whether you walk simply or swirl busily. Let the music be your guide, and respect those around you while lose yourself in the music. I can talk forever about musicality, but I won't do so here.

What's regarded a good dance? 
I dare say it depends on one's mood, so it can vary from one moment to another. At 1am at a milonga I am happy to relax into soft movements. But if a vals is played, I am prepared to dance more expressively. If a leader is sensitive and picks up on the follower's ability and mood, the leader can allow the follower more freedom to determine how she implements his lead. It's about give and take - a converstaion between two people.

I hope this helps.
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Take a peek at other people's pay and perks Check out The Great Australian Pay Check
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/

From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 17:23:47 2009
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 08:23:47 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta (WAS Tango Styles II)
In-Reply-To: <4AD46BC9.6070705@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <4AD46BC9.6070705@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210910151423j1be8d2bei3b8e8fcd221860d1@mail.gmail.com>

I wouild have to agree with Shahrukh. I must admit,  during the year that I
spent in BsAs, i only went to Viruta 3-4 times. I never even considered it a
milonga, i always used to refer to it a s a night club - a pick up joint
that happens to play tango music.
abrazos

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Shahrukh Merchant <
shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:

> ECSEDY ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> says:
>
> > I see there is still this misconcept about nuevo being irregular, using
> > large moves and causing greef to regular dancers. Well that is a
> > misconcept fueled by ignorance. Just check out La Viruta any time
> > outside the general 'tourist period' and you'll see that while most of
> > the people are nuevo dancers, they are pretty much able to navigate
> > without problems, collisions in a lot denser crowd than anywhere else on
> > the planet.
>
> La Viruta??!!! Surely you jest. If you want to dispel the myth that
> Argentines have this magic "Tango navigation gene" as some (not recent)
> posts have suggested, La Viruta is the place to do it: the worst
> possible navigators on the planet. Oh, but just for the record, not
> because they are doing "nuevo" per se (even though they are mostly young
> dancers, largely Argentine) but because they are mostly beginners
> dancing the trademark La Viruta style of looking down at their feet
> instead of where they are going. In fact I would sometimes mutter,
> "Viruteros" when such a couple (at a different milonga) would bump into
> me (or into my protectively outstretched arm) after the man took 2 back
> steps in a row against line of dance without looking. And I'd generally
> get a knowing nod and smile from my partner.
>
> I stopped going to La Viruta in large part because of this
> "bump-a-tanguero" phenomenon (the dancers there are good natured, I will
> say, so couples who bump into each other smile rather than glare at each
> other), so I don't have recent experience: perhaps all the good
> navigators were merely waiting for me to leave before they started going
> there? :-)
>
> Shahrukh
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Fri Oct 16 13:06:49 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:06:49 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
Message-ID: <4AD8A829.1090807@shahrukhmerchant.com>

macfroggy at aol.com says:

> This nostalgia for what used to be, that life, people, things, milongas aren't what they once were, is very tango!

Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar> kindly provided the lyrics:

> We live in the present . 
> Our ego clings to the past and our mind tries to hide into the future because it does not like a present continuous as it happens to be.
> ...
> ?and then the mind will atone (with some complaining , yes , but will atone). And we dance , here and now.

Now all that's missing is the music ... :-)

Some other comments:

"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com> wonder:

> Was that the time of the nightclub fire?  I've heard it said that that event really changed the milongas.  When the clubs were closed, people found other things to do and some didn't go back to the milongas.  When people went back they may have changed where they went.

No, that was much later, December 2004 (the sentencing for those deemed 
responsible just took place a few weeks ago, almost 5 years later). And 
I wouldn't say that that really changed the milongas anyway. For a 
period of several months, yes, while all dance venues were closed and 
only slowly being allowed to open. And a few never came back, or came 
back in different locations, etc. Some like "Lo de Celia" took longer to 
come back. But ultimately, it did not really change the nature of the 
Milongas as a whole.

robin tara <robinctara at gmail.com> (who started the thread) adds:

> I want to apologize to anyone for whom my posting seemed like an admonition
> to forego the tango  experience in Buenos Aires.  Or to imply that going to
> BA these days won't thrill you at all.

No, your posting didn't come across that way at all, but yes, it 
probably bears reinforcing that Buenos Aires is still the only city that 
lives and breathes tango, but you have to know where to find it (though 
you will likely run into it accidentally anyway).

The change is that the milongas are decreasingly the places to find the 
"original" Tango (but many are still special places nonetheless). In 
fact I would suggest that you come sooner rather than later, because the 
flat-world phenomenon is increasingly flattening the Tango as well (by 
that I mean that, for better or worse, it is being increasingly 
internationalized).

Art and commerce (of art) have always had an uneasy symbiosis, and Tango 
is not immune to this. What the recent internationalization phenomenon 
has done is upset that balance. International interest and money feeds 
the commerce *but does not have the same stake in the culture*, having 
"discovered" it a decade or two ago at most (I'm talking about 
discovered it in its current form, not about the Belle Epoque era export 
-to-Paris discovery), without even the strength of a sense of identity 
behind it. Contrast that to a century plus of local Tango culture in 
Buenos Aires (ok, Rio de la Plata region), where the culture is 
furthermore intertwined with a strong sense of identity that is part of 
a subconscious national identity. Which do you think is more likely to 
care about preserving traditions?

The "art" part of the symbiosis got confronted with a huge uphill battle 
(and it's not clear whether the UNESCO declaration has helped or hurt 
art's side of the battle--my take is that bureaucracies and art don't 
mix ... but let's see). Whether it's up to the task remains to be seen. 
Tango survived suppression during the dictadura ... but perhaps it has 
an insidiously stronger challenge now: insidious because it is not 
suppressing it, but chipping away at it.

Ultimately, it's all Darwinism at it's finest, but that doesn't mean one 
shouldn't reflect on the some beautiful now-lost species, and lament 
that one now has to visit a zoo to see what was once out in the 
wilderness for those willing to seek it out. And sure, write a Tango 
about it ...

Shahrukh

From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 16 13:30:00 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:30:00 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
Message-ID: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>

TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES

Lesson  1    Nuevo Tango

The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever  changing and evolving and that?s 
a good thing. I admire the younger generation  for it?s Nuevo Tango and all 
the work and effort they put into it however  because of the nature of the 
way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard  etiquette of traditional 
social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the  rules but that doesn't 
matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of  the way it?s 
danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple  solution.

Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm  talking about.

Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise  around the outer 
edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line  of dance 
inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if  you 
were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look  like 
a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and  
kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't 
stop  the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and 
kicking and  everyone is happy.

These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning  and kicking on a 
crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old  dude leading a 
boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The  experienced leader 
will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line  of dance he will 
use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others  on the floor 
and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of  Nuevo 
Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long  periods 
of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City  
Rockette.

The Solution: 
This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know  the answer perhaps separate 
milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only  solution?
If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk  about a 
challenge we can find a solution.  



From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 14:21:07 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:21:07 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
References: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0910161121o79b25dc4n8f053114a360b0e9@mail.gmail.com>

Typically all I ever see is negative snide commentary and not very
much positive.  We have rarely ever as any culture succeeded with
negativity.  Just watch how we train animals.... positive
reinforcement.

THIS LIST seems incredibly rare with anything positive.

I hate negativity, got rid of my TV because of it, don't read
newspapers because of it and now this list just barrages me with it!

I would prefer to be a 'NUEVO DUMMY' that can and does teach the line
of dance, other courtesies that are unspoken and how men are bastards
to women with their sleezy tricks and touch ups that the vast majority
of come from 'milonguero's' and not 'nuevo's' or 'viruta' dancers.

BEGINNERS IN MOST THINGS ARE USELESS!  Give them a chance and really
think back to how much you sucked when you started and maybe just
maybe, they were better than you then...  And if the truth be known,
and you all posted videos of yourself, firstly, you would prefer not
to... too personal, not your style, but basically, most of you
probably don't dance very well either but wish you could.

Some of the teachers on this list don't necessarily dance very well
either - many of you think I don't and have publicly said that.  There
is a dance teacher in Australia, a milonguero/salon style teacher,
Ross Clarke who publicly walked onto an empty dance floor whilst the
music is playing, pushed me in the back and told me to calm down
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14bKC6H4tY).  NOW THAT HAS NO MANNERS
AT ALL!  ETIQUETTE should demand that probably don't hit him, I
didn't.  ETIQUETTE should probably demand that he apologise, he never
did - at least every day I improve, practice and dance.


I really am tired of this list and have asked to be removed from it
before... Now I'm asking the entire list publicly like another person
just recently - please remove me from this list.

REMOVE ME PLEASE!


2009/10/16 <HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com>
>
> TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES
>
> Lesson ?1 ? ?Nuevo Tango
>
> The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever ?changing and evolving and that?s
> a good thing. I admire the younger generation ?for it?s Nuevo Tango and all
> the work and effort they put into it however ?because of the nature of the
> way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard ?etiquette of traditional
> social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the ?rules but that doesn't
> matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of ?the way it?s
> danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple ?solution.
>
> Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm ?talking about.
>
> Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise ?around the outer
> edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line ?of dance
> inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if ?you
> were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look ?like
> a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and
> kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't
> stop ?the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and
> kicking and ?everyone is happy.
>
> These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning ?and kicking on a
> crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old ?dude leading a
> boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The ?experienced leader
> will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line ?of dance he will
> use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others ?on the floor
> and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of ?Nuevo
> Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long ?periods
> of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City
> Rockette.
>
> The Solution:
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know ?the answer perhaps separate
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only ?solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk ?about a
> challenge we can find a solution.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From aron at milonga.hu  Fri Oct 16 17:19:23 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?UTF-8?B?RUNTRURZIMOBcm9u?=)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:19:23 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
References: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>

David (and others),

David, I think you are very much stuck into your specific tango 
environment, where what you understand to be 'nuevo' correlates with 
crappy navigation skills. This is definitely not true to many, I risk 
it, most 'nuevo' communities. Maybe there is an unqualified 
teacher/organizer around, or maybe just too many people who don't accept 
that there are actually others who think/dance otherwise...

I guess, if we would simply exchange 'nuevo dancers' with 'black people' 
or 'gay people', then the idea of separating them for your comfort would 
seem a whole lot more provocative, while in essence the reasons behind 
the segregation would be the same: some people are different, and want 
to be separated. In your youth both was everyday phenomena. People 
thought that segregation was OK then. So if we separate we'll have 
tanghettos? :) Then nuevo may really become a different style - with a 
sidenote, that it would be the one to survive as tango. The younger 
generation has a knack for it, and therefore they will bring 'nuevo' as 
'tango' into the future without the possibility to be faced with the 
'other' style. Not that it has any chance for happening: milonga 
organizers are not stupid to shut out their future market...

All your recent posts convey the same, generalizing and generally 
untrue, statement that 'nuevo' dancers are crap, and your posting style 
is visibly offending many people (those who don't dance 'nuevo' also): 
IMO this is not acceptable on an open list, it is the very same thing 
that you so fervently criticize in the style of the 'nuevo dancers'. 
Also, a tango mailing list is not supposed to be a community junkyard: 
the reason for discussion is not to 'vent' frustration or to attack 
people or groups of people, but to share experiences, or to discuss 
certain views. Cold war methods of agitprop is NOT discussion.

As for the remarks about navigation at La Viruta by others: It is not 
entirely the same crowd if you go on different days, or when different 
DJs/orchestras are around. Also, most foreigners (at the beginning, me 
too) did not understand those simple rules that have to be followed to 
do just about anything without a bump in any size of crowd. Something 
that was increasingly difficult for instance when the locals:foreigners 
ratio changed during a CITA. Of course, it is maybe only my superb 
navigation skills, but I don't think so...

Peace,
Aron

HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com ?rta:
> TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES
>
> Lesson  1    Nuevo Tango
>
> The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever  changing and evolving and that?s 
> a good thing. I admire the younger generation  for it?s Nuevo Tango and all 
> the work and effort they put into it however  because of the nature of the 
> way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard  etiquette of traditional 
> social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the  rules but that doesn't 
> matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of  the way it?s 
> danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple  solution.
>
> Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm  talking about.
>
> Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise  around the outer 
> edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line  of dance 
> inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if  you 
> were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look  like 
> a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and  
> kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't 
> stop  the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and 
> kicking and  everyone is happy.
>
> These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning  and kicking on a 
> crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old  dude leading a 
> boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The  experienced leader 
> will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line  of dance he will 
> use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others  on the floor 
> and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of  Nuevo 
> Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long  periods 
> of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City  
> Rockette.
>
> The Solution: 
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know  the answer perhaps separate 
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only  solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk  about a 
> challenge we can find a solution.  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>   


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From politas at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 17:59:48 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:59:48 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
References: <bdc.579773ad.380a0798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AD8ECD4.5030209@gmail.com>

HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote:
> The Solution: 
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know  the answer perhaps separate 
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only  solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk  about a 
> challenge we can find a solution.  
>   
Most milongas we have here in Canberra are in the traditional style. 
Last weekend, we had a "Nuevo Milonga", where all the music played was 
modern tango music, with lots of electronica and fusion stuff.

There was a substantial overlap between attendees at this event and our 
regular traditional-style milongas. The ronda was operating quite well, 
with no more mishaps than usual.

Separate milongas is really not a solution to any problem I'm aware of. 
Certainly not where I live.

Myk,
in Canberra

From grus.canadensis at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 18:32:33 2009
From: grus.canadensis at yahoo.com (Sandhill Crane)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:32:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <647473.51870.qm@web113116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 10/16/09, ECSEDY ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

> David, I think you are very much stuck into your specific
> tango environment, where what you understand to be 'nuevo'
> correlates with crappy navigation skills. This is definitely
> not true to many, I risk it, most 'nuevo' communities.
> Maybe there is an unqualified teacher/organizer around,

The people who cause trouble at milongas with tango nuevo
stuff are often very skillful. They are not exactly 
clueless, though they are certainly inconsiderate.
>From what I can tell, their attitude is that they are
doing OK since they don't bump into anybody.
What they are failing to see is that they are still
causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
else, by not advancing in the line of dance (whirling
endlessly instead), and by charging into any open space.

I wouldn't mind (probably wouldn't even notice) if 
people would do the tango nuevo stuff without being
disruptive, but there is an actual connection between
the "novedad" of tango nuevo and the disruption.
What's new is a particular analysis of steps:
not a new analysis of embrace, or music, or socializing,
but of steps. So naturally steps are emphasized --
big and flashy -- and naturally people who go in for
that don't find it important to consider what effect
they have on other people, except to avoid stepping
on them.



      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 16 19:24:13 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:24:13 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <647473.51870.qm@web113116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>


I agree with:

> The people who cause trouble at milongas with tango nuevo
> stuff are often very skillful. 

> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.

This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.

Don't know what the solution is. Ultimately I suspect it will come down to the responsibility of the milonga host/organizer to enforce whatever codes they choose to have at their events. In the old days, so it's said, community norms of floorcraft were enforced by the community, by boxing out offenders, or by "talking" to them in the back alley when more polite methods didn't work.

And at it's most fundamental level, I think it amounts to a difference in personal values. A person who values an intimate connection, who values a calm and orderly LOD, will always be at odds with a dancer who values impressing his partner with his creativity and variety at the expense of an orderly LOD. And of course there must also be followers who prefer to be impressed with footwork than to be held in an intimate embrace. One way of doing things isn't "right" vs. "wrong," they're just different. The challenge is to find some way for the two very different ways of dancing to coexist.

J

P.S. Just coming down off the "festival high" from the Portland TangoFest, having been pleasantly surprised that floorcraft this year was noticably better than in years past. Attendance was down slightly, so perhaps the less-crowded floor contributed, but for whatever reason, it was nice.



 		 	   		  
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Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
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From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au  Fri Oct 16 20:21:56 2009
From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:21:56 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
Message-ID: <4AD90E24.207@optusnet.com.au>

Noughts wrote:

< I really am tired of this list and have asked to be removed from it
< before... Now I'm asking the entire list publicly like another person
< just recently - please remove me from this list.

< REMOVE ME PLEASE!


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From aron at milonga.hu  Fri Oct 16 22:03:59 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:03:59 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>

Hello Jay,
>> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
>> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.
>>     
>
> This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.
>   
Theeere we go then. I had that distinct impression that this might be 
the problem. I think I've referred to it as well. This IMO is a very 
Western phenomenon: you are frightened by their sudden moves, and they 
are not really aware of their delta-v or the 'flow' of their movements.

To elaborate on this: If you have ever stood in a line at a supermarket 
in BsAs, you'll know that those guys have no sense of 'personal space' 
as we know it. In essence, personal space under their understanding is 
restricted to the volume your body actually fills and not a millimeter 
more. This has two profound secondary effects: 1) foreigners mostly 
cannot take this, they're scared shitless when someone passes close, it 
feels threatening to many of them 2) portenos usually don't use high 
delta-v (they might be fast, but the acceleration is nothing I am used 
to, they also seem to be irritated by that). The first one is something 
that you can get used to. My partner had problems with it outside the 
dance floor. After two weeks I was quite happy with it as it was obvious 
that locals DO go for open spaces. Actually, this is the way to move 
fast through a huge crowd on the street without problems. They do that, 
but they also slow down when space is scarce, OR if with slightly 
squeezing in or with a 'permiso' they can make space, they will. As for 
the second problem it is quite obvious from how portenos drive: during 
my stays I've never seen anything resembling the sudden and agressive 
overtakings so natural around our parts, especially in Hungary. They 
simply know that if they do that could mean a certain accident. As I see 
it, right of way goes to people whom are more forward (so they can't see 
you directly, but you can see them - sensible), who have large cars 
(also sensible in a way) or those who approach a lot faster (happens 
mainly when a line is standing, with the other moving a lot faster - 
probably the only occasion they look into a sidemirror - very sensible 
again). These rules appear to work on the dancefloor as well and you 
don't seem to need more. Minor planning range is needed but for that you 
only need to communicate your intention of direction and speed. 
Admittedly, this is something that may be missing from some nuevo 
enthusiasts.

The concept also includes disregarding a lot of rules you take for 
granted. For instance: changing 'lanes' (in BsAs nobody is observing the 
lanes painted on the road, and use 8 lanes on a 6 lane road) without 
indicator lights, when someone is RIGHT beside you is completely 
acceptable. In ANY Western country you would be pulled out of your car 
by the next red light and beaten up on the spot for 'trying to kill' the 
driver. In Hungary, they wouldn't even wait for the red light, you'd 
pushed down from the road before, and the other driver, father of two, 
would kick your teeth in... In general, their customs are malleable, 
while Western cultures use rules that are not. Sometimes, breaking a 
rule in Europe that has no impact on anything (not even more than a 
passing witness) is punished. Customs are only customs. If you break 
them it is not the end of the world...

If you can overcome your fear of couples speeding and trusting them to 
avoid you, you'll feel absolutely comfortable. It is a scentific fact, 
that in Western societies most people are raised with a very poor 
experience in what is called limbic resonance (the reason why having a 
shrink is a commonplace today). That comes with the relatively crappy 
ability to react to body language and motion clues, therefore 
overreaction to any ambigous stimulus - such as speeding youngsters 
(note: your limbic system is the key to all non-verbalizable, emotional 
communication, and limbic effects are inherently non-conscious and 
cannot be made conscious which is a feature not a bug). Obviously, you 
need to train yourself to be less jumpy. Also, youngsters should be 
taught that they should be communicating their long term lane of 
movement more efficiently to allow planning for you.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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From anton at alidas.com.au  Fri Oct 16 23:44:29 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:44:29 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <000601ca4edc$26c448d0$744cda70$@com.au>

I'm afraid there's hardly a sentence in your last post which I find
agreeable Aron. Maybe the behavioural and psychological sciences differ in
our worlds. But the bottom line seems that you have difficulties accepting
that differing conclusions can be arrived at from the same experience. Your
BsAs example leaves me somewhat perplexed. I understood you were inferring
that BA people, due to their conditioning would feel more comfortable with
erratic space stealing dancers than those in most Western civilizations. By
"stealing" I mean charging into the free space ahead of you, which you had
begun to move into. My experience In BA would suggest they don't like it any
more than most Western dancers. If as you suggest that the fear of collision
is a western trait, then how come so many westerners indulge in extravagant
dancing with seemingly no stress related injuries. Obviously undue concern
about collision isn't an inherent trait. I believe that the only reason we
are discussing these issues, is not born out of bigotry or discrimination,
but simply because the number of people preferring to dance tango
extravagantly has grown to the point where many other dancers do not enjoy
them on the dance floor beside them. The question that begs an answer I
believe is why traditionalist are willing to examine the concept of
different milongas while it appears that non-traditionalists are not.

Anton


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 17 12:00:09 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:00:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W6134A31A327AB63F83DDBA9C30@phx.gbl>


Ecsedy Aron,



Interesting that you "read between the lines" and conclude that my point had to do with fear of invasion of personal space. I believe that's an incorrect conclusion.


While your comments about the cultural differences in space management
whether on the highways or the dancefloors between Argentina and other
parts of the world is right on, observations I've made myself, they are
not the central issue here.



The central issue is that I want to enjoy my partner and the music. I
don't want to have to dance overly defensively. I want my movements to
be a smooth choreography with the music and the movement of the couples near to me. I
want to protect my partner from injury or the embarrassment of her
causing injury if someone darts in front of her after I've led her to
step. I can't do either of these things well when the leader near me is
darting in and out of every open space, whether it's in his lane or in
front of or behind me in my lane.



Hope that clarifies.



J



> >> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
> >> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.
> >
> > This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.

 		 	   		  
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From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sat Oct 17 13:25:52 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:25:52 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Navigation abuse
Message-ID: <4AD9FE20.6020508@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> said:

> Theeere we go then. I had that distinct impression that this might be 
> the problem.

[Thesis on personal space deleted.]

Sorry, Aron, I think you need to consider the fact that you're the one 
not getting it (and perhaps therefore unconsciously practising this 
behaviour too?). The phenomenon is real, has absolutely nothing to do 
with personal space, and everything to do with inconsiderate navigation 
and their practitioners.

*Technical* navigation skill (the ability to move around without hitting 
anyone) is one thing and *social* navigation skill (the ability to 
navigate without being an annoyance to other people or causing them to 
take defensive action) is another thing (though it requires at least 
some of the first, or at least the good sense to limit what you do to 
your navigation skills).

The analogy is the ice-hockey-playing "studs" who cruise around the rink 
during family skating time and whiz inches past slower skaters. They 
have the technical skills necessary to be sure of not hitting anyone, 
but not the social skills or the consideration to share the space for 
everyone's mutual enjoyment.

> If you can overcome your fear of couples speeding and trusting them to 
> avoid you, you'll feel absolutely comfortable.
 > ...
> Obviously, you 
> need to train yourself to be less jumpy.

An excellent summary of what I'm referring to: Within this attitude lies 
the root of the problem. Further explanations not necessary for those 
who understand that. Further explanations futile for those who don't ...

Shahrukh

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 17 18:49:18 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:49:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango 2000 for dummies
Message-ID: <SNT115-W5204DB7B125626DC588B7297C30@phx.gbl>


The title of this thread is correct and descriptive.
 
It is very simple, when the floor is crowded, it does not matter what tango style you dance you have to keep your dancing very compact,adjust to the circumstances,  follow the line of dancing and, above all, you should not disturb the other dancers *ever*.
 
If you like to dance in any other way, you have to create the circumstances where that form of dancing is possible.  You need more space.In another place.
 
You need  a practica after your usual lesson or at a specified place and time  where dancing in a way that requires more space is possible.
 
If you go to a milonga where the floor is crowded, you either dance in a compact way, small steps, walks, little turns, a few ochos or sit down till the crowd clears the floor (very late at night) and then you have more room to dance.
 
The obligation of the milonga organizer is to talk to anybody that disturbs the atmosphere of his milonga, to try to correct his behavior and when necessary ask him to leave the floor or the milonga all together.
 
The good tango instructor teaches how to navigate the floor and how to adjust the dancing to the available space.  Those that disturb the milongas as described (IMO) have had very poor instruction.
 
This should not come as a surprise when you have people that take a few tango lessons and start teaching tango.
 
There is no need to invent anything, all this codes where developed over 100 years ago.
 
Best regards, 
 
Sergio
 
  		 	   		  
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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 17 19:37:46 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:37:46 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango 2000 for dummies
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W5204DB7B125626DC588B7297C30@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W5204DB7B125626DC588B7297C30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W98B138612D87C1A682646A9C30@phx.gbl>



> From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com
> If you go to a milonga where the floor is crowded, you either dance in a compact way, small steps, walks, little turns, a few ochos or sit down till the crowd clears the floor (very late at night) and then you have more room to dance.

Yes, Sergio, in a perfect world, that's the way it would be. Unfortunately another option is often exercised, that of dancing aggressively, fast, big movements, carving out space by intimidation. If there were true community consensus as to what was correct, small groups of dancers could "box out" and restrict the movement of transgressors. And in BsAs, in the neighborhood clubs less frequented by foreigners and unacculturated youngsters, that might still work. But in today's world, where in any given city there are factions of course who value and appreciate the LOD and respecting the space of other dancers, there are also groups of dancers who seem to think only of themselves and their enjoyment, and if they have to crowd out some slow-moving dancer to maximize their personal fun, so be it.

J
 		 	   		  
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From tango22 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 21:57:41 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:57:41 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic
Message-ID: <C4739270-C421-44DB-8681-7D45A536912A@gmail.com>

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:06:49 -0300
From: Shahrukh MerchantSubject:
Re: [Tango-L] Missing Magic

Art and commerce (of art) have always had an uneasy symbiosis, and  
Tango is not immune to this. What the recent internationalization  
phenomenon has done is upset that balance. International interest and  
money feeds the commerce *but does not have the same stake in the  
culture*.............., without even the strength of a sense of  
identity behind it. Contrast that to a century plus of local Tango  
culture in Buenos Aires (ok, Rio de la Plata region), where the  
culture is furthermore intertwined with a strong sense of identity  
that is part of
a subconscious national identity. Which do you think is more likely to  
care about preserving traditions?

Now that is an interesting question Shahrukh, that begs a response.   
The assumption might the the latter, but I'm not so sure.  The  
advantage most western Tango converts have is wealth.  Some  
foreigners, with sufficient perception and patience learn to  
understand the essence of Tango that attracts most people in the first  
instance.  They have the luxury of being in a position to protect a  
tradition that they find so entrancing, because they do not need to  
survive from teaching Tango.  The also often have a convert's  
enthusiasm.  Compare this with the stream of 3rd rank "maestros" who  
pour out to the US, Europe, Australia & Asia.  Many are not wealthy,  
and when an opportunity to travel and make some money presents itself,  
they are not about to miss it. (not a criticism, just a statement).   
Nor are they very focussed on preserving a tradition (other than  
words).  I have not seen one such "maestro" who does not attract  
customers through performance (mostly average) and then proceed to  
teach semi-performance to a gullible audience who believe it is the  
real deal.  Hence the hybridisation of modern Argentine Tango around  
the world.  Tete said to a class we attended in Buenos Aires, "If you  
(the local dancers) continue this way, the foreigners will return to  
teach you how to dance Tango".

John


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 23:47:04 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu>
> >? 
> Theeere we go then. I had that distinct impression that this might be 
> the problem. I think I've referred to it as well. This IMO is a very 
> Western phenomenon: you are frightened by their sudden moves, and they 
> are not really aware of their delta-v or the 'flow' of their movements.
> 
> To elaborate on this .....
> 

Aron, whilst I admire your tenacity, for how much longer can you continue 
to find excuses for Nuevo dancers. You seem think that, provided they don't 
actually physically?hit us, they're doing nothing wrong. And if some of us are 
mentally disturbed by their antics, that's our fault for not learning to adapt. 

It's like the old mothers' saying - "look, all the soldiers are out of step, except 
my son". 

I have absolutely nothing against Nuevo dancers, or Ballroom tango dancers, 
but I just don't want to dance on the same floor. For me, dancing Tango is ALL 
about 'feeling' and I don't want to be disturbed mentally. IMHO, a continuous 
mental disturbance is far, far?worse than the occasional physical bump, 

If it's a traditional milonga, everyone should respect that - just as they do in 
BsAs, where they have separate 'practicas' for Nuevo dancers, Separation 
is the simple answer to the problem.

Btw, congratulations on your successful festival in the beautiful city of Budapest.

Jack.


      


From al at sgi.com  Sun Oct 18 04:55:36 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:55:36 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>

Jack Dylan wrote:
> I have absolutely nothing against Nuevo dancers, or Ballroom tango dancers, 
> but I just don't want to dance on the same floor.

Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 06:29:14 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Alexis Cousein <al at sgi.com>
> 
> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
> 

Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that. 
I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their 
navigation is or whether or not?they intrude into anyone's physical space. 

As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to?is mental, not physical.

It could be Chicho for all I care. I still wouldn't want to share the dance floor 
with him - unless he danced traditional Tango, which I suspect he probably 
would if he was attending a traditional milonga. 

All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes?and character 
of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?

Jack


      


From vytis at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 18 07:08:42 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:08:42 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Australia)
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS19EF1951FFE7961B781E82AEC20@phx.gbl>


Myk in Canberra said:
>Separate milongas is really not a solution to any problem I'm aware of.
>Certainly not where I live.


I have to agree.

In my 8 months in Melbourne, I would say a third of the classes over the 4 
or 5 schools cater for nuevo students at the intermediate/advanced level. 
Most of the tango dancers do nuevo at milongas.  There is at least one well 
patronised Saturday milonga that advertises to play a mix of nuevo with 
traditional stuff.  The popular Sunday practica (jeez we even had a couple 
dancing with a baby in arms today! :-) ) always has a splash of weird nuevo 
music.  Even the wonderfully eclectic Martin plays nuevo after midnight at 
the Thursday milonga.

In Canberra, the two biggest tango schools teach nuevo styles and have nuevo 
practicas, including a lot of alternative music.  From what I understand, 
the latest nuevo milonga was as a result of dissatisfaction in the musical 
direction at the older tango venues and from my reports Myk, the numbers 
were higher than what the older venues have been able to attract of late. 
Why the schism?  Can't they cater for all tastes as they do in Melbourne?

When I was living in Canberra, I was told by women how the some men were 
predictable in their dancing.  In Melbourne, I have heard similar.  Also, 
better men (in my eyes) are tagged as being minimalistic in their style or 
are known to repeat the same steps over and over.  Does this mean that women 
can get bored and want the diversity of nuevo steps?  From what I have heard 
yes: they want interesting combinations and musicality too, and not just to 
traditional tango: if the guys are up to it.

However, even if there was no nuevo music ever played again in Melbourne, 
nuevo would still be danced at each and every milonga as this is what 
happens now.   I believe this is what tango dancers in Australia really want 
and the idea that a milonga can replicate what happened in BsAs in the 1940's 
has truly had it's used by date.  Laughingly, I have also heard 1st hand 
from certain organisers that nuevo is not danced in BsAs, from people who 
have been there.  Really?!!!

This nonsense that only nuevo dancers are rude is hogwash.  Even those 
dancers who I would say do strictly salon style dancers and do it very well, 
I have seen only recently dominate the dance floor, darting in and out of 
the line of dance with big showy steps.  Frankly I find that more annoying 
than the nuevo dancers "showboating" as you expect that. But not enough to 
lose any sleep over.  But I sot of can understand why some men can have 
their ego rubbed the wrong way seeing such displays and then want to tell 
the dancers off.

Finally, there is nothing particularly hard about getting off this list. 
When I was still getting the daily emails, there always a link on how to 
unsubscribe from the list.  It only took basic navigation skills to change 
my reading preferences.

Thanks to the reader who alerted me to this latest thread to give my 2cents 
worth.



 


From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct 18 08:43:32 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:43:32 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>

I am happy for your responses. I DO AGREE with ALL of you in almost all 
aspects, except complete separation of MILONGAS.

Maybe this medium of e-mail is not sufficient or I am not adept at using 
it, or it is simply my lack of native English skills.

- yes I do agree that it is WRONG if ANY dancer scares puts you on the 
defensive, however, there must be a limit what you consider your own 
space. With my BsAs example I was only showing that this is very 
subjective. I did not propose a certain amount, only awareness of 
different norms in an international environment (and that also includes: 
a Swede and a Greek will have different sense of personal space too) - 
this list IS international environment.
- yes I do agree that ALL dancers should be aware of the REACTION of 
others to their own movements, and to be aware of the 'danger' others' 
movements pose to them
- I do agree that milongas should be a COMMON venture, where all dancers 
can dance together without annoying each other
- I do BELIEVE that nuevo should not be used as an excuse to dance 
offensively
- I do KNOW that many, if not most, nuevo dancers (perhaps not in your 
community, but in many other places - my samping area is mostly Europe 
and BsAs) are aware of this and dance accordingly when NEEDED
- As for Chicho dancing socially: he is dancing his style - named nuevo 
by most - still then, but (as I tried to express myself in the previous 
posts) that does NOT imply that he is going to kick your head off while 
slamming into you in the clockwise direction (which considering his 
structure and top speed would not just be dangerous, but outright 
lethal), he is merely using his style and technique to dance small and 
'social'. All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho 
etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers as I was made aware in no 
uncertain terms when I asked them to perform on stage (they did accept, 
but they weren't so happy about it).
- nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an 
answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are 
protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a class without a 
teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed subgroup of dancers.

I hope that clears that we are just using different perspectives and 
some unconcious dogma-like markers to identify styles, while essentially 
agreeing on most of the VALUES (even if arriving to a different 
conclusion for the 'enforcement' of these - which is IMHO sounds a bit 
strange when a group of people understand the root causes, agree on the 
values but try to implement methods to make this values generally 
enforced using methods we DON'T agree on. As a sidenote: sounds like the 
sign of times all over the planet...)

Cheers,
Aron


Jack Dylan ?rta:
>> From: Alexis Cousein <al at sgi.com>
>>
>> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
>> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
>>
>>     
>
> Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that. 
> I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their 
> navigation is or whether or not they intrude into anyone's physical space. 
>
> As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to is mental, not physical.
>
> It could be Chicho for all I care. I still wouldn't want to share the dance floor 
> with him - unless he danced traditional Tango, which I suspect he probably 
> would if he was attending a traditional milonga. 
>
> All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character 
> of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?
>
> Jack
>
>
>       
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>   


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



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From al at sgi.com  Sun Oct 18 09:07:48 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:07:48 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADB1324.10105@sgi.com>

Jack Dylan wrote:
>> From: Alexis Cousein <al at sgi.com>
>>
>> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
>> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
>>
> 
> Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that. 
> I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their 
> navigation is or whether or not they intrude into anyone's physical space. 
> 
> As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to is mental, not physical.

Ah - so the mere presence of nuevo dancers makes you incorrectly generalise and
*fear* that they may be inconsiderate, and that's enough to make any individual
nuevo dancing couple a real threat, regardless of whether they are actually
inconsiderate?

[I'm nor putting words in your mouth, I'm genuinely asking if that's what you meant.]

That's called building a Feindbild. It's been used to rationalise a lot of things,
and I won't invoke Godwin's law to end this thread though it's an easy exercise
to the reader ;).

All styles of tango spawn their own flavours of inconsiderate dancers - the
problem is in the attitude of the dancers, not the style. While nuevo seems
to spawn a type of inconsiderate behaviour that I would nickname "the whirlwind",
traditionalists mired in dogma they don't understand seem to be able to spawn
their own inconsiderate phenotypes; the one I encounter most often is called
"the windscreen wiper".

It's a couple never stepping back (that you should not step back *against
the line of dance* is a given, but that's not the same thing), but their
insistence on facing always the same way leads them to swerve from
side to middle and back constantly (given that's the only nonlinear movement
they allow themselves). Not a problem in itself, but sometimes these are a
lot slower than the ronda; as their side to side motions make them
impossible to overtake, it leads to global caravanning on the dance
floor.

That's *also* inconsiderate, but they usually have a deeply rooted
conviction that they're doing it "right" (they're not; respecting the
ronda also means moving at the speed set by it) and that as a result
everyone else has a duty to make the ronda move at the speed
*they* desire to dance, while whirlwinds may often offer apologies
if they become aware that they are resented.

> 
> All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character 
> of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?
> 
No, it's not. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the organiser who decides what
the rules are.

But that also means that when I am at a milonga where the rules
aren't set by staunch traditionalists, I *will* share the floor with anyone
who is considerate, be they nuevo dancers or not. I'll only fear those who
I've seen to misbehave (and will actively try to navigate away from them so
that I don't have to fear them, which is, of course, harder if there are
a lot of them).

And it also means that if someone is behaving like an ass, the fact that
he professes to "respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character"
is no excuse. If you're not being considerate (which means to be
abiding by a lot of subtle unspoken rules), then you aren't respecting
the codes, not even if you're desperately clinging to a small
set of beliefs about them and thus think you're "right".

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat Oct 17 06:39:00 2009
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <000601ca4edc$26c448d0$744cda70$@com.au>
Message-ID: <memo.20091017113938.2292e@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> The question that begs an answer I believe is why traditionalist are
> willing to examine the concept of different milongas while it appears
> that non-traditionalists are not.

The answer lies in the reason non-traditionalists attend traditional 
milongas. 

Jay wrote "a dancer who values impressing his partner".

Hereabouts, its "a dancer who values impressing his potential customers".

Almost all nuevo dancers found in trad European milongas are teachers. 

I'll say that again.

Almost all nuevo dancers found in trad European milongas are teachers.

For them, a nuevo-only milonga would be about as much use as an 
advert-only radio station.

Chris

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 13:33:28 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:33:28 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>

> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers

Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm

Sergey

May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From aron at milonga.hu  Sun Oct 18 14:05:01 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:01 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>	
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>	
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>	
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	
	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
	<ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADB58CD.9020408@milonga.hu>

I am sorry to say, but what is written on that page is paranoid and 
false. The videos do not illustrate what is written there. Neither the 
'threatened' couples act as it is described, neither the near-accidents 
happen. Also, this appears to be the final dance of a show and not a 
milonga. There are barely people on that floor.

The only thing you've pointed out that Gustavo likes to dance with more 
energy than the others and he is using space as it is available. All his 
moves are easy to anticipate, and he is judging the other couples moves 
well that they won't deviate into his path.

I must go back to my previous observation:, that most 'traditionals' 
appear to idealize dancing where each couple is granted a football 
field, and supposed to be moving as handicapped snails following more 
unnecessary rules than the entire US Civil Code, caselaw included (no 
wonder we have so many rules in the modern world - most of them 
unenforcable). If this is the case, yes, I understand that these people 
want to organize their own milonga. I guess a separate one each...

Aron


Sergey Kazachenko ?rta:
>> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
>> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers
>>     
>
> Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
> http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
>
> Sergey
>
> May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
>   
   

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4520 (20091018) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Sun Oct 18 14:43:29 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:43:29 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] How to Defeat Kung Fu Tandas
Message-ID: <bff.6a4d0cb3.380cbbd1@aol.com>

> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you  mentioned from Arce, Chicho
> etc. consider themselves mainly social  dancers

Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to  mind
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
Sergey

How  to Defeat Kung Fu Tandas
Passive Aggressive Tanda a subtle way to defeat the  common nuisance of the 
aggressive ?payaso?(clown).
It?s common knowledge that  the traditional tango dancer has studied for 
years the fine art of floor craft.  It?s also pretty much understood that the ?
payasos? (clowns) have had very  little training in floor craft other then 
the crafty Kung Fu Tanda of invade and  conquer.   
The key to preventing the ?payaso? from grabbing floor  space is as 
follows:

In step one when he stops the line of dance to bully  you into stopping 
your forward movement don?t stop, take two large forward steps  and lead your 
partner into a 100 MPH low boleo. This will disable his partner  and the 
floor will now open up to respectful dancing.

In step two when  the ?payaso? stops to do big turning figures in order to 
retain floor space  simply use you?re leading skills to dance directly upon 
him and remain within  inches of him. He will try to get away from you but 
he hasn?t got the skill so  simply dance rings around him and he will get 
frustrated and leave the  floor.

In step three?..Oh Sorry there is no step three all we need is  two.

?Float like a butterfly sting like a bee?
Muhammad Ali  



From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 15:04:21 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADB58CD.9020408@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <133937.91938.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is, in fact, from the show "Milonguissimo" that has been produced off and on for several years at Confiteria Ideal and other places. ?I recognize the dancers such as Miguel Angel Balbi and others. ?The cast changes from time to time but Oscar Hector is the producer. ? ?I am surprised that Rick McGarrey used it to illustrate his Blog because he surly knows it is a show and not a typical milonga pista where these gentlemen dance.
Nancy

--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: "Tango-L" <TANGO-L at MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 2:05 PM

I am sorry to say, but what is written on that page is paranoid and 
false. The videos do not illustrate what is written there. Neither the 
'threatened' couples act as it is described, neither the near-accidents 
happen. Also, this appears to be the final dance of a show and not a 
milonga. There are barely people on that floor.

The only thing you've pointed out that Gustavo likes to dance with more 
energy than the others and he is using space as it is available. All his 
moves are easy to anticipate, and he is judging the other couples moves 
well that they won't deviate into his path.

I must go back to my previous observation:, that most 'traditionals' 
appear to idealize dancing where each couple is granted a football 
field, and supposed to be moving as handicapped snails following more 
unnecessary rules than the entire US Civil Code, caselaw included (no 
wonder we have so many rules in the modern world - most of them 
unenforcable). If this is the case, yes, I understand that these people 
want to organize their own milonga. I guess a separate one each...

Aron


Sergey Kazachenko ?rta:
>> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
>> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers
>>? ???
>
> Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
> http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
>
> Sergey
>
> May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
>???
???

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4520 (20091018) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      

From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Sun Oct 18 15:33:42 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:33:42 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] To the ladies on Tango-L - What makes for a good
	dance?
In-Reply-To: <BLU149-W18BE428D22C0F97E6B346CCDC60@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1505.1255536695.14579.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<BLU149-W18BE428D22C0F97E6B346CCDC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CC1E410911F579-2040-14CFD@webmail-d057.sysops.aol.com>


I have said it before in this forum - but for me, as a follower, the 
essence of tango is a warm embrace (I use the baby-holding analogy all 
the time), confident walk and musicality - that's it.  Everything else 
- the fancy stuff - is fun only when well and safely done, and it's 
tango only if the basic three elements are there.  Otherwise, it's 
something, but it's not tango - to me.

When new folks show up at milongas for the first time, I like to ask 
them who they think is the "best" on the floor.  Invariably they pick 
the folks doing the ganchos, high boleos, lots of kicking, etc.  When I 
ask them again after they've actually been dancing for a while, 
especially followers, they have usually changed their minds and enjoy 
the connection and quiet, intimate expression that I think of as tango.

barbra

-----Original Message-----
From: June es <esjune at hotmail.com>
To: tango-l <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Wed, Oct 14, 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To the ladies on Tango-L - What makes for a good 
dance?











Myk, your questions deserve some response. Here's my humble opinion.

Embrace.
1. When a leader's embrace is gentle but firm, this provides a sense of 
security
to the follower. When a follower feels secure, that person can follow 
you
better. Gentle and firm sound like a paradoxical situation but I think 
of being
a baby held in someone's arms and feeling secure because the hold is 
gentle but
firm.
2. I also like an embrace that is flexible, allowing the follower to 
move within
the framed space, even in a close embrace. Let me suggest that you 
think how you
like to be held for three minutes or so, and you get the idea that you 
must be
allowed to breath in and out freely when you are in that hold. I always 
imagine
the bandoneon's expansion and compression which is undoubtedly an 
exaggerated
way of looking at how the embracing arm can allow the framed space (and 
the
follower in it) to "breath".

Fun moves.
They are fun, but the leader must gauge the follower's ability to 
execute the
moves without injury to both dancers and those around them. I enjoy 
them myself
but only if I am confident that the leader has the correct timing and 
stability
to support me. Skill is required from both dancers.

Music, music, music.
This factor determines whether you walk simply or swirl busily. Let the 
music be
your guide, and respect those around you while lose yourself in the 
music. I can
talk forever about musicality, but I won't do so here.

What's regarded a good dance?
I dare say it depends on one's mood, so it can vary from one moment to 
another.
At 1am at a milonga I am happy to relax into soft movements. But if a 
vals is
played, I am prepared to dance more expressively. If a leader is 
sensitive and
picks up on the follower's ability and mood, the leader can allow the 
follower
more freedom to determine how she implements his lead. It's about give 
and take
- a converstaion between two people.

I hope this helps.

_________________________________________________________________
Take a peek at other people's pay and perks Check out The Great 
Australian Pay
Check
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
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http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l







From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 18 15:35:28 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:35:28 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
	<ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006701ca502a$26721660$73564320$@net>

Sergey, you wrote:
> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers

Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm


Sergey, what, no smiley-face after that?  Surely you can see that this is a
joke-page.
I'm sure Rick had a lot of fun making this little video, including the cute
martial-arts sound effects, and the "Kung-Fu Tanda" is an inspired
play-on-words in the best Argentine tradition.  But SOME of the photos that
Rick chooses to use for his joke at Gustavo & Giselle's expense show that
this is not from a milonga at all, but during a performance, on stage, for
an audience.  

The idea of putting social tango on stage into a performance setting is an
old one, using the idea of a "mini-ronda" on stage, and often allows for
whichever couple is front-and-center to respond naturally to the fact that
the audience's attention is now primarily on them. Gustavo and Giselle are
doing no more than this in this video, seem to be causing no disruption
judging from the body language of the other dancers, and take up no more
than their share of the stage when they circulate "out of the spotlight" to
the back of the "stage ronda".  A similar amount of room to what Gustavo
used is then granted to the following couples in the spotlight area.

I have enjoyed Rick McGarrey's blog a lot, and deeply appreciate his
heartfelt work articulating his unique perspective on the world of Buenos
Aires tango. It was fun to see Miguel Angel Balbi again in this video, who
we haven't seen for several years.  But this bit of sleight-of-hand, so
pointedly questioning Gustavo's social dancing skills for the sake of
satire, seems like a pretty cheap shot, and unworthy of the standards set
elsewhere in his very interesting blog. Since he was the editor of the
video, I have to assume Rick knew perfectly well that this was dancing on a
stage for the pleasure of an audience, not social dancing exclusively for
one's partner in a milonga.  It's disappointing that he went to such
enthusiastic lengths to mislead the readers of this page.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 20:35:00 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <765876.60248.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

> - nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas
> could be an 
> answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a
> style you are 
> protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a
> class without a 
> teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed
> subgroup of dancers.

It's called niche marketing and works successfully in the real world.  Catering to peoples specific needs.  It's recognizing that people have different needs and desires.  We can all agree with that premise, correct?  

The big thing bothering people about the idea of separate milongas is that they take it personally, as if it's saying something about them.  That's the real problem.  Quit taking it personally and you might just recognize that having separate milongas does not have to be a divisive thing.  It can actually help to develop different styles, which to me, is more interesting than some monolithic blob.  Yes, it's nice if we could all dance together in harmony, but sometimes, there's real life.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Oct 18 21:56:34 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:56:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Can't we all get along /Was TANGO 2000 ...For DUMMIES
References: <765876.60248.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D8102A9BBEC400EA20F4EADDADB0C96@michaelditkoff>

I agree with Trini. A Washington organizer was hounded to play more 
alternative music at milongas. But he's a traditionalist and resisted. It 
got so bad he sent a message asking for responses on a separate alternative 
milonga or just playing more alternative at the regularly scheduled milonga. 
The result is a separate alternative milonga. This should make everybody 
happy. The traditionalists (like myself) don't have to listen to foxtrot 
(which I dance, but not at a milonga) and others don't have to listen to 
traditional. The alternative isn't going to be 100% but more than my comfort 
level.

Everybody wins. I don't see a problem.

Michael
Washington, DC
I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES


--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

 - nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an 
answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are 
protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a class without a
> teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed subgroup of dancers.

It's called niche marketing and works successfully in the real world. 
Catering to peoples specific needs.  It's recognizing that people have 
different needs and desires.  We can all agree with that premise, correct?


Trini de Pittsburgh







_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 22:44:20 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:44:20 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <006701ca502a$26721660$73564320$@net>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
	<ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
	<006701ca502a$26721660$73564320$@net>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910181944t72ac65e7q29421ce222a160b5@mail.gmail.com>

> Sergey, what, no smiley-face after that?  Surely you can see that this is a
> joke-page.

The jokes don't need to be accompanied by smileys to be funny.
For example, there is no smiley in my signature either.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 18 23:01:18 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:01:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango 2000....for dummies
Message-ID: <SNT115-W38F7B71FD5A2F158B30CCB97C10@phx.gbl>



Reading the different posts on this subject...
 
It seems that is clear that traditional tango dancers are happy with their milongas, if they ever go to another milonga they adjust to the rules and characteristics of that place and do not disturb anyone.
 
Many Nuevo dancers have their own practicas and milongas in many places and do not disturb anyone either.
 
Traditional tango dancers do not mind to have separated milongas, as most of them consider that Nuevo dancers disrupt their dancing.
 
Nuevo dancers on the other hand for reasons that are not clear, do not want to have separated milongas and insist with going to the traditional milongas to upset the local dancers.
 
Chris UK stated "Almost all nuevo dancers found in trad European milongas are teachers. For them, a nuevo-only milonga would be about as much use as an advert-only radio station."
 
Uhmm! it seems that the reason the Nuevo dancers come to the traditional milonga is to show off and steal tango students for their own groups... then.
 
To show off and to disrupt the dance are reasons to be thrown out of a milonga, it has always being that way, but now you have the added element of student stealing...this is even worse.
 
Please,let me know if you think that my interpretation is wrong.
 
Best regards,
 
Sergio
 
 
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Oct 18 23:49:02 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:49:02 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic, UNESCO declaration
Message-ID: <4ADBE1AE.5020800@shahrukhmerchant.com>

In response to my largely rhetorical question between international 
interests in Tango vs. local Buenos Aires Tango interests:

> Which do you think is more likely to  
> care about preserving traditions?

Tango22 <tango22 at gmail.com> legitimately pointed out (if I may 
paraphrase) that foreign wealth and a "convert's enthusiasm" may very 
well trump a mediocre local's (i.e., from Buenos Aires) 
opportunistically taking advantage of his better ability to pull the 
wool over the eyes of Tango innocents (by virtue of his "Argentine" 
credentials).

Worth repeating from his post:

> I have not seen one such "maestro" who does not attract  
> customers through performance (mostly average) and then proceed to  
> teach semi-performance to a gullible audience who believe it is the  
> real deal.  Hence the hybridisation of modern Argentine Tango around  
> the world.

Sadly very true, though in all fairness most of them DO care about Tango 
traditions and culture, but just not at the expense of their livelihood 
(something to do with Maslow's hierarchy, no doubt). It's a complex 
subject for sure, and there are complex interplays between *knowing* 
what is "real Tango," actually *trying* to teach it, *knowing* how to 
teach it, preserving the culture vs. just teaching the steps, etc. 
Someone may CARE about preserving traditions but have no interest and/or 
ability (whether it be financial or organizational) to be an effective 
crusader for the cause. And many people just want to learn to dance what 
they see as the Tango, without any interest whatsoever in the culture 
behind it (for most people, myself included, that comes later (if it 
comes at all), once one has some context and contact with the culture).

But there is one difference: the music. For most Argentines, I would 
venture to say, even most of those who dance Tango, the soul of Tango 
lies in the music (and the depth of cultural complexities carried within 
it). For non-Argentines, even those who really care about the "real 
Tango," it is the dance they focus on. Most of us non-Argentines, even 
those who learned Spanish, can barely understand the lyrics let alone 
all the cultural implications behind it.

And a well-intention philanthropist or enthusiastic convert may 
inadvertently direct his money or enthusiasm to what got *him* 
enthusiastic, with insufficient knowledge of what really needs to be 
preserved. One can imagine a hypothetical visit by a Bill Gates to 
Buenos Aires, where he sees an electro-tango group in torn jeans playing 
in Plaza Dorrego and attends Taconeando (the tourist Tango show), and 
decides that Tango in Buenos Aires needs a $500,000 donation from the 
Gates Foundation so that they can wear better clothes and advertise in 
even more magazines (respectively). But he would miss the fact that 
perhaps what was more worthy of support (for a lot less money) was 
greater exposure to the two quiet musicians in their 70s who play for 
tips on Calle Florida, one of whom was a singer in D'Angelis' orchestra 
and the other a bandoneonista in Pugliese's.

On a related subject, but switching gears somewhat, it's worth looking 
at the UNESCO declaration. Despite my scoffing that "bureaucracy and art 
don't mix," in fact they've done a pretty good job at identifying the 
breadth and depth of what Tango constitutes. The press releases that 
most people read were pretty shallow, but if you want to see the 
details, go to

http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/doc/src/00258-Nomination_form.doc

which is a Word document that really goes into some detail about what 
all they are trying to protect, what projects they propose to implement, 
and how much each will cost. Now how much of this money actually goes 
into doing what it's supposed to remains to be seen (actually it's not 
likely that it *will* be seen, since it is doubtful that anyone will 
actually get a real accounting of where the money went). But I don't 
doubt that it will do some good.

No real conclusions from this post (I certainly wouldn't pretend to have 
the answers) ... just various musings.

Shahrukh

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 03:42:05 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <279585.81216.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron at milonga.hu>
> 
> I am happy for your responses. I DO AGREE with ALL of you in almost all 
> aspects, except complete separation of MILONGAS.
> 
>?.... nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an 
> answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are 
> protecting), > 


Aron, can you give us some reasons why you don't want to see separate 
milongas, other than the one above, which makes no sense, unless you 
think that Nuevo couldn't exist on its own.?

Separate milongas/practicas work in BsAs, why not elsewhere?

Jack


      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 03:59:13 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Australia)
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS19EF1951FFE7961B781E82AEC20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-DS19EF1951FFE7961B781E82AEC20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <672493.28968.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
>? Laughingly, I have also heard 1st hand 
> from certain organisers that nuevo is not danced in BsAs, from people who 
> have been there.? Really?!!!
> 

If someone visits BsAs, it's quite possible to visit a popular milonga 
every night and never see any Nuevo so it's not surprising that many 
visitors can return home with that idea.

Yes, they dance Nuevo in BsAs - but rarely in the milongas. Nuevo 
is catered for in practicas such as Practica X and others. 

Jack


      


From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct 19 07:10:23 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:10:23 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <279585.81216.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4AD8E35B.8090203@milonga.hu>
	<BLU120-W19ADC7336253F96827C44CA9C40@phx.gbl>
	<4AD9260F.4070302@milonga.hu>
	<740743.46145.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADAD808.8090008@sgi.com>
	<437071.68240.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4ADB0D74.60509@milonga.hu>
	<279585.81216.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC491F.3050800@milonga.hu>

Dear Jack,
> Aron, can you give us some reasons why you don't want to see separate 
> milongas, other than the one above, which makes no sense, unless you 
> think that Nuevo couldn't exist on its own. 
>   
You are absolutely right. Nuevo is not a dance. It is tango. Separating 
it would make it a separate dance after a while. I think you have 
visually identified something that you call nuevo around you which even 
I would not classify tango. I dance TANGO using nuevo technique.
> Separate milongas/practicas work in BsAs, why not elsewhere?
>   
Umm. We are continuously talking about different things. Nuevo does not 
separate. You can see all those 'nuevo' dancers in all the milongas (of 
course they tend to frequent certain places more, but that tells you 
more about the mood of the place than the style danced). Actually I was 
taken around by a bunch of nuevo dancers in the trad milongas too. I see 
no difference. But they still frequent schools like DNI.

As for nuevo dancers are teachers in Europe. Most European countries 
have a smaller population than your average US county or even medium 
cities. Even the big ones are fragmented by ethnic, traditional or 
language boundaries. Obviously, many communities are small, so most 
dancers who know what they do start to teach. I've seen this in many 
cities. Also, most places (notable exceptions are the large 
metropolises) have only one milonga on the same evening and it is NOT 
normal to have milongas each day (in Hungary it is still considered a 
major diplomatic offense to launch a new milonga when there is one on 
the same day). In Budapest, there are 2M people, with over 3M if you 
include the agglomeration zone. The second largest city in Hungary has 
barely 300.000 people., the third half that much. Entire population is 
less than 10M. Nevertheless, we have 4 regular milongas, maybe a bit 
more during the summer (because of the open air stuff) in Budapest, and 
only one city has a milonga - which is really only for one club there 
with a dozen or so people.

Simply, the community is not large enough to support separate 
traditional/nuevo milongas. Also, for an average milonga attendance of 
40-60 people (Budapest), there are over a dozen people who do teach. Of 
course, they aren't teaching that 60 people. Simply, the amount of 
activity and overall tango population numbers are different: the mailing 
list for tango has over 300 members, tango courses usually churn out an 
average of a 1000 people per year. The problem is that most Hungarians 
are simply not interested in going to milongas, only learning 'some 
tango' (long story - has to do with danceschool tradition: people are 
led to believe for decades, that they only need 8-lesson courses and 
they have the basics in any dance). So milongas became the meeting point 
for the fanatics, the elite, a large percent of them with enough 
knowledge to teach (this is something we are trying to change 
desperately - especially the nuevo folks...). Also, most of Eastern 
Europe is nuevo land. Traditional teachers were considered lame by the 
general population, because dancing is/was mostly a stage phenomenon 
(after 40 years of state sponsored cheap elitist dance education and 
performances - along with the Soviet-Russian influence - it is a normal 
attitude) for the older people, for the younger ones, the freedom (and 
the youth of teachers) in nuevo was/is more appealing. That's about it, 
I guess. But nuevo folks dance to traditional tango, in close embrace, 
even if sometimes (when they have the space and the chance) to fancy 
stuff as well. For us it is completely organic to show characteristics 
of nuevo, sal?n, even canyuengue within the same dance... purists may 
cry now.

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 19 07:58:22 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?Windows-1252?B?VmluY2UgQmFndZphdXNrYXM=?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:58:22 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is authentic Argentine tango?
Message-ID: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>




(Resent, because this borrowed computer had Rich Text as a default)



Reading the further postings on Tango 2000... for Dummies and the off list emails I have recieved, raises the suggestion that, the organisers should put up a sandwich board outside the milonga door/a notice in their newsletter/internet postings etc, that says clearly and plainly what style of dancing is permitted as conditions of entry (like entry to car-parks), rather than rely on quiet hope that the music will keep the riff-raff away (it doesn't as I have said in a previous post). Maybe like thus (borrowing from Tango L and elsewhere):



A/ Tango Milonga

It is a social activity consisting of


Meeting and dancing with friends old and new
Seeking a tango trance
Lanes that progress around the room; no zig-zagging around the middle
Smaller 2-3 step sequences and rock steps
Moderate strides and cautious boleos
Maybe occasional brushes with other dancers


B/ Authentic Argentine tango

(i) What is allowed?

Salon-style tango including:

milonguero/apilado/petitero/caquero/Villa Urquiza
club tango

Golden age tango music from the late 30?s to the 50?s


(ii) What is not allowed?


Tango orillero
Tango nuevo, including volcadas, kicks above the knee, multiple guanchos
Fantasia/salon tango
cayengue
tango music post 1950?s
alternative/neo tango music


 
 


Thoughts?



Cheers!

Vince









Click Here View photos of singles in your area 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
View photos of singles in your area Click Here
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct 19 08:20:36 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?windows-1252?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:20:36 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is authentic Argentine tango?
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ADC5994.2060800@milonga.hu>


House rules. Well, these could be acceptable (as these are only syllabus 
limitations and not arbitrary style-police), but enforcement may be 
difficult. Especially, when the milonga statistics do not support it (50 
people on a 15 by 25 meter/yard dancefloor with rules for small moves?).

However, in a modern world I do not believe that a milonga organizer 
will consciously limit participation, unless the problem already is 
overcrowding and the prices already went out on the roof...

Aron


Vince Bagu?auskas ?rta:
>
> (Resent, because this borrowed computer had Rich Text as a default)
>
>
>
> Reading the further postings on Tango 2000... for Dummies and the off list emails I have recieved, raises the suggestion that, the organisers should put up a sandwich board outside the milonga door/a notice in their newsletter/internet postings etc, that says clearly and plainly what style of dancing is permitted as conditions of entry (like entry to car-parks), rather than rely on quiet hope that the music will keep the riff-raff away (it doesn't as I have said in a previous post). Maybe like thus (borrowing from Tango L and elsewhere):
>
>
>
> A/ Tango Milonga
>
> It is a social activity consisting of
>
>
> Meeting and dancing with friends old and new
> Seeking a tango trance
> Lanes that progress around the room; no zig-zagging around the middle
> Smaller 2-3 step sequences and rock steps
> Moderate strides and cautious boleos
> Maybe occasional brushes with other dancers
>
>
> B/ Authentic Argentine tango
>
> (i) What is allowed?
>
> Salon-style tango including:
>
> milonguero/apilado/petitero/caquero/Villa Urquiza
> club tango
>
> Golden age tango music from the late 30?s to the 50?s
>
>
> (ii) What is not allowed?
>
>
> Tango orillero
> Tango nuevo, including volcadas, kicks above the knee, multiple guanchos
> Fantasia/salon tango
> cayengue
> tango music post 1950?s
> alternative/neo tango music
>
>
>  
>  
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Vince
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click Here View photos of singles in your area 		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> View photos of singles in your area Click Here
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>   


-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/




From buraktango at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 08:56:00 2009
From: buraktango at gmail.com (burak ozkosem)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:56:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango NAZI- STYLE POLICE
Message-ID: <35ba58f10910190556t69cea008l520e1c1f0b228005@mail.gmail.com>

This is a reply to Social Tango rules and Milonga regulations
..
if you follow these regulatory "Tango-Nazi"? suggestions

- Tango will STAY underground, no new people will come
- Tango will be danced by only the above age of 55 (especially in North America)
- No diversity will be exist. Universal DJing system would work, so no
djing skills required since if everyone plays the same tandas with
same order at same set up.

?Reality check: We are in the 21st century and the year is 2009, it's
not 1946 and we don't live in Buenos Aires.
I would suggest the ones who cry for authentic tango experience and
dream about TANGO TIME MACHINE, just move to BsAs.
If teachers are social dancers, and know not only how to teach but
also guide their students into the world social tango and how to
integrate what they learn into "pista"
then there shouldn't be any problem.

I know that almost every Tango teacher on the planet reads this
Tango-L, so if an instructor is willing to change and think about what
needs to be done, it's perfect otherwise, seeking a solution with
milonga organizers is not enough.

I would highly recommend all of you take a break from writing on Tango
THEORY, and just come out and dance whatever style you like to dance.
Burak
Chicago


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 09:50:11 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:50:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango NAZI- STYLE POLICE
In-Reply-To: <35ba58f10910190556t69cea008l520e1c1f0b228005@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35ba58f10910190556t69cea008l520e1c1f0b228005@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <761332.83026.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: burak ozkosem <buraktango at gmail.com>
> 
> This is a reply to Social Tango rules and Milonga regulations
> ..
> if you follow these regulatory "Tango-Nazi"? suggestions ....
> 

Firstly, I think Vince's post was written tongue-in-cheek and I'm fairly 
sure he's not a 'Nazi'. 

Secondly, I'm reminded of 'Godwin's Law', which states:

"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison 
involving Nazis approaches one." well. I guess we reached that stage :-)
?
Oh yes,?The term 'Godwin's Law' also refers to the tradition that whoever 
makes such a comparison is said to 'lose' the debate. Sorry, Burak, you lose.
?
Jack

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 09:58:42 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:58:42 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is authentic Argentine tango?
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910190658w65363e1dn282da5df4aed2c6d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Reading the further postings on Tango 2000... for Dummies and the off list emails I have recieved, raises the suggestion that,
>the organisers should put up a sandwich board outside the milonga door/a notice in their newsletter/internet postings etc,
>that says clearly and plainly what style of dancing is permitted as conditions of entry (like entry to car-parks), rather than
>rely on quiet hope that the music will keep the riff-raff away

"
Improper dancing will not be tolerated; persons so indulging will be
immediately ejected.

No moonlight or shadow lighting effect. The hall must remain fully lighted.

No dance shall continue after 3 o'clock a.m. unless by written
permission of the Mayor,and not later than 11:45 Saturdays.

Pass-out checks are not to be issued.

Matrons shall be employed at every public dance and have entire charge
of ladies' rooms.

Minors under the age of 17 years shall not be admitted to hall unless
accompanied by parent or guardian.

By special instructions of the directors of the Musician's Union, all
orchestras are directed to obey the orders of the representative of
the Mayor to cease playing should conditions so justify.
"

In the same article: "By orders of Mayor Fitzgerald yesterday,
improper dances of all kinds are excluded from the public dance halls
of Boston. The prohibition includes all the so-called animal dances,
such as the turkey trot, bunnie hug, bear dance, etc, also the kitchen
sink, tango and other extravagances."

>From Boston Daily Globe October 11, 1913.


Take care,

Sergey

May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )


From rontango at rocketmail.com  Mon Oct 19 10:03:30 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Rules, Nazism,
	and the Preservation of Tango Culture
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <716948.62341.qm@web111806.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> 
> A/ Tango Milonga
> 
> It is a social activity consisting of
> 
> Meeting and dancing with friends old and new
> Seeking a tango trance
> Lanes that progress around the room; no zig-zagging around the middle
> Smaller 2-3 step sequences and rock steps
> Moderate strides and cautious boleos
> Maybe occasional brushes with other dancers
> 
> B/ Authentic Argentine tango
> 
> (i) What is allowed?
> 
> Salon-style tango including:
> 
> milonguero/apilado/petitero/caquero/Villa Urquiza
> club tango
> 
> Golden age tango music from the late 30?s to the 50?s
> 
> (ii) What is not allowed?
> 
> Tango orillero
> Tango nuevo, including volcadas, kicks above the knee, multiple guanchos
> Fantasia/salon tango
> cayengue
> tango music post 1950?s
> alternative/neo tango music
> 

Except that I see no prohibition against canyengue in and one milonguero has told me he dances 'orillero', this more-or-less describes the overwhelming majority of milongas (> 100/week) in Buenos Aires. Tango music post 1950s will be played occasionally if it is in the style of the 30s-50s tango music (e.g. One may occasionally hear Color Tango). 

I realize this was said in jest. What I cannot understand is why some dancers object to trying to recreate Argentine tango culture outside Argentina. Tango is not only the dance, it is the music and the culture, the latter including certain codes of social interaction. Can't we try to recreate this in peace?


> Subject: [Tango-L] Tango NAZI- STYLE POLICE
> 
> This is a reply to Social Tango rules and Milonga regulations
> ..
> if you follow these regulatory "Tango-Nazi"  suggestions
> 
> - Tango will STAY underground, no new people will come
> - Tango will be danced by only the above age of 55 (especially in North America)
> - No diversity will be exist. Universal DJing system would work, so no
> djing skills required since if everyone plays the same tandas with
> same order at same set up.

Actually, I think nuevo overwhelming milongas is doing a good job of stamping out diversity.

>  Reality check: We are in the 21st century and the year is 2009, it's
> not 1946 and we don't live in Buenos Aires.
> I would suggest the ones who cry for authentic tango experience and
> dream about TANGO TIME MACHINE, just move to BsAs.

This gives us a lot of options, doesn't it?

So now cultural preservation is being associated with Nazism, the great annihilator of cultures it didn't like. By goose-stepping into our milongas, nuevo is driving tango milonguero into the underground. So who really are the Nazis here?

A respect for cultural diversity allows all cultures to thrive. Traditionalists are not asking nuevoists to stop dancing. You certainly have many alternative milongas to choose from. We're just asking you to allow us to preserve the culture we admire in the type of environment we want to create. In our house, please respect our house rules. To not do so is arrogant and immature. Grow up and recognize you can't just impose your behavior on everyone. 

Ron


      



From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Mon Oct 19 10:57:06 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:57:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Rules, Nazism,
	and the Preservation of Tango Culture
Message-ID: <566916.92640.qm@web46003.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Some time ago (october 11th) ?I send a letter to the editor , local Buenos Aires newspaper La Nacion, on the subject of tango inmaterial heritage acepted by Unesco. I will translate the letter .

Alberto

?
Tango rioplatense
?
Mr. Editor: 
"The inclusion of tango, based on the joint petition of Argentina and Uruguay , on the list of world inmanent heritage of Unesco, makes almost useless to keep discussing the geographical area of tango.
?
Both countries , in a brotherhood gesture from their representatives of the cities of Buenos Aires and Montevideo , agreed that tango was born on the basin of the Rio de la Plata, among the popular social classes of the cities of Buenos Aires and Montevideo.
?
In this region, where a mixture happened of european emigrants , descendants from african slaves and natives (criollos) , a melting pot of cultural pattens, beliefs and?? rites? happened,? being transformed?? into a ?specific cultural identity.
?
Within this identity, the characteristics ?that emerge in music , dance and poetry of tango , are in turn, an incarnation and vector of a diversity and cultural dialogue.
?
Coming from this origin, it is acknowledged and greeted?, that it has been difussed all over the world, and that now , it belongs to everybody , or to nobody , since it is related to mankind.
?
In what is essential, tango is?born and reproduces, on those that value and appreciate it, live where they live, in this planet.
?
Alberto Gesualdi
dni 11286086


      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/

From macfroggy at aol.com  Mon Oct 19 13:19:50 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:19:50 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Missing Magic, UNESCO declaration
In-Reply-To: <4ADBE1AE.5020800@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <4ADBE1AE.5020800@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <8CC1EF780163954-2478-21B72@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com>


     Shahrukh said it so well!



For most Argentines, I would 
venture to say, even most of those who dance Tango, the soul of Tango 
lies in the music ... For non-Argentines, even those who really care about the "real 
Tango," it is the dance they focus on.



 I never thought about it this way, and it does explain so much.
Thanks, Shahrukh, for nailing it.

That's why it's only foreigners who use "tango" as a verb!

Cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com




From grus.canadensis at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 14:22:45 2009
From: grus.canadensis at yahoo.com (Sandhill Crane)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <4ADC491F.3050800@milonga.hu>
Message-ID: <752814.20290.qm@web113111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, ECSEDY ?ron <aron at milonga.hu> wrote:

> But nuevo folks dance to traditional tango, in close embrace, 
> even if sometimes (when they have the space and the chance)
> to fancy stuff as well.

Well, this is at the heart of the problem, isn't it?
The guys racing their speedboats figure they always
have plenty of room to do the fancy stuff. 

> For us it is completely organic to show characteristics of
> nuevo, sal?n, even canyuengue within the same dance...
> purists may cry now.

I'm not a purist, I just get really annoyed at speedboats
and washing machines. It just so happens, in this place
and time, that these are largely tango nuevo dancers.
You can mix any styles you want. Can you also please stop
lunging at my partner and me? Thanks.



      



From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 14:46:33 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Just do it
Message-ID: <582861.68809.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

It amuses me that some people seem to think that diversity in tango will die if milongas aren't separated.  That's like saying that heart surgeons should attend conferences for general practitioners instead of conferences for heart surgeons.  Ya' think the advances in heart surgery came through general medicine?  It took specialization.

Take a look through an old Bridge to the Tango catalogue and look at the variations pre-nuevo days.  I can't count the number of times I've gone to a workshop, thought "wow what a great new step", and then later realized that I already knew the step but that the teacher put a different spin on it, giving it a different feel.  I find it arrogant for nuevo dancers to suggest that nuevo is the only future of tango.  Those are the ones who are limited.

As for the difficulty of developing a separate milonga for nuevo dancers, what the heck do you think it was like creating a milonga in a city in the first place?  Hello!!!  My first weekly milonga had 15 people at its grand opening, and dropped to 5-7 people a week for months at a time when my city was losing population big-time.  Ten years later its at critical mass and I've stopped keeping counts long ago.  So don't say that 40-60 people at a milonga is not enough people.  That's an insult to those in your community that started with only a handful of people and worked their butts off to make a viable community.  If nuevo and traditionalists can get along great in your community, then fine.

If you're passionate about something, work on your own to create it.  Don't rely on the backs of others to do the work for you.  Yes, it can be a financial risk, but so was the first milonga in your community.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From al at sgi.com  Mon Oct 19 15:57:23 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:57:23 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000  ............For DUMMIES
In-Reply-To: <752814.20290.qm@web113111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <752814.20290.qm@web113111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADCC4A3.7010704@sgi.com>

Sandhill Crane wrote:
>  Can you also please stop
> lunging at my partner and me? 

You should get less personal: given ?ron is in Hungary,
unless you go to Budapest you're unlikely to be lunged at
by him ;).

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:06:22 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-2?B?VmluY2UgQmFndblhdXNrYXM=?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:06:22 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is authentic Argentine tango?
In-Reply-To: <c63a5fe70910191138ldbd7475m61cd5a74fbb95cb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT124-W5382AE38E0944DA3D8868FAEC10@phx.gbl>


 <c63a5fe70910191138ldbd7475m61cd5a74fbb95cb6 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0










> whoa=2C hold on vince...
>
>  but you included canyengue within
> your exclusions ! why=2C=20
=20
=20
=20
As I understand read it=2C it is proto-tango not from the Golden Age of tan=
go styles=2C involving flashy steps=2C more space.  It is not tango as we k=
now it Tony. =20
=20
Rock and roll at
=20
=20
=20
> this is what nuevo dancers seem
> happy to ignore.
=20
Some=2C salon style dancers do the same=2C owning the space.  But that is O=
K because they are doing salaon?  Plus as I have said=2C a majority of danc=
ers do nuevo steps to traditional music anyway=2C so it does not matter to =
them what is played.  No-one at the milonga objects=2C the organiser does n=
ot red-card anyone=2C so that is OK too. =20
=20

=20
> vince=2C i don't think you can lay down rules/labels to exclude types of
> dance styles or steps.
=20
If I stuggle to find on the net=2C what is authentic tango including the at=
mosphere surrounding a BsAs milonga=2C what hope the new dancer?
=20
There is one tango I go to in Melbourne that promotes itself as an authenti=
c piece of BsAs=2C but the music and the dance styles are as varied as anyt=
hing you have seen. =20
=20
Good if this post encourages intelligent discussion and a concensus  on wha=
t is authentic tango comes about so that devotees of such can be clear upon=
 it in their rules and promotions.  The off topic discssions I have had wit=
h people who say they love Golden Age tango but cannot tell me what is is=
=2C is very confusing.
=20
cheers=2C
=20
Vince 		 	   		 =20
_________________________________________________________________
Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how here
http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=3D823454=

From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Mon Oct 19 16:17:57 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:17:57 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] natural separation
Message-ID: <ce9.62bbb0f4.380e2375@aol.com>

Simply, the community is not large enough to  support separate 
traditional/nuevo milongas. Also, for an average milonga  attendance of 
40-60 people (Budapest), there are over a dozen people who do  teach. Of 
course, they aren't teaching that 60 people. Simply, the amount of  
activity and overall tango population numbers are different: the mailing  
list for tango has over 300 members, tango courses usually churn out an  
average of a 1000 people per year. The problem is that most Hungarians  
are simply not interested in going to milongas, only learning 'some  
tango' (long story - has to do with danceschool tradition: people are  
led to believe for decades, that they only need 8-lesson courses and  
they have the basics in any dance). So milongas became the meeting point  
for the fanatics, the elite, a large percent of them with enough  
knowledge to teach (this is something we are trying to change  
desperately - especially the nuevo folks...). Also, most of Eastern  
Europe is nuevo land. Traditional teachers were considered lame by the  
general population, because dancing is/was mostly a stage phenomenon  
(after 40 years of state sponsored cheap elitist dance education and  
performances - along with the Soviet-Russian influence - it is a normal  
attitude) for the older people, for the younger ones, the freedom (and  
the youth of teachers) in nuevo was/is more appealing. That's about it,  
I guess. But nuevo folks dance to traditional tango, in close embrace,  
even if sometimes (when they have the space and the chance) to fancy  
stuff as well. For us it is completely organic to show characteristics  
of nuevo, sal?n, even canyuengue within the same dance... purists may  
cry now.
Cheers,
Aron

Aron after reading about your tango  community I can sympathize with you. I 
can see that you need to find a way for  the different styles of tango to 
coexist. Here in Southern California we have  many milongas to choose from on 
any given night and it looks like a natural  separation is already starting 
to happen. 
David  



From macromagix at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 14:38:45 2009
From: macromagix at gmail.com (tony parkes)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 05:38:45 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is authentic Argentine tango?
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-W238F4B3528267ECE1BBA59AEC10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c63a5fe70910191138ldbd7475m61cd5a74fbb95cb6@mail.gmail.com>

whoa, hold on vince...

i agree with most of what you have writ, basically summarised as not
encouraging nuevo to be danced in traditional milonga venues whilst
traditional music is being played. but you included canyengue within
your exclusions !  why, when every dj in traditional milonga venues
plays at least one canyengue tanda a night - carlos at los
consagradros often plays 2 canyengue tandas, and if he plays a slow
donato tanda then you can count 3 canyengue tandas - muy bien :)

extrapolate this line of thought - when the dj plays vals, milonga,
canyengue, candombe, chacarera, rock'n'roll or a tango pugliese or di
sarli, then that is what you should try to dance. but if you are not
up to speed you either sit it out or else dance to the best of your
ability WITHOUT INTRUDING, without dancing contrary to both the
physical and kinetic energy flows. this is what nuevo dancers seem
happy to ignore.

for example, last tuesday at el arranque (given my age away haven't i)
was reasonably crowded so we all danced to our less than roughly 1x1
ie 1 square metre of floor space, except of course the young couple
dancing nuevo in the centre whose extravagant style demanded at least
2x2 metres ie 4 sqm of space.

vince, i don't think you can lay down rules/labels to exclude types of
dance styles or steps. we all know when the dance style is nuevo or
traditional or vals or candombe or canyengue or rock'n'roll without
referring to a list. here in buenos aires there are dedicated
alternative milongas, it is just a shame that a handful are selfish
enough and arrogant enough not to give a damn about other people's
feelings.

i have no problem with nuevo developing as a dance form, we all know
the only thing constant is change. the problem is the attitude of
those who take up neuvo with exhibitionist zeal, over inflated egos
and no consideration for others.

cheers
tony


On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> (Resent, because this borrowed computer had Rich Text as a default)
>
>
>
> Reading the further postings on Tango 2000... for Dummies and the off list emails I have recieved, raises the suggestion that, the organisers should put up a sandwich board outside the milonga door/a notice in their newsletter/internet postings etc, that says clearly and plainly what style of dancing is permitted as conditions of entry (like entry to car-parks), rather than rely on quiet hope that the music will keep the riff-raff away (it doesn't as I have said in a previous post). Maybe like thus (borrowing from Tango L and elsewhere):
>
>
>
> A/ Tango Milonga
>
> It is a social activity consisting of
>
>
> Meeting and dancing with friends old and new
> Seeking a tango trance
> Lanes that progress around the room; no zig-zagging around the middle
> Smaller 2-3 step sequences and rock steps
> Moderate strides and cautious boleos
> Maybe occasional brushes with other dancers
>
>
> B/ Authentic Argentine tango
>
> (i) What is allowed?
>
> Salon-style tango including:
>
> milonguero/apilado/petitero/caquero/Villa Urquiza
> club tango
>
> Golden age tango music from the late 30?s to the 50?s
>
>
> (ii) What is not allowed?
>
>
> Tango orillero
> Tango nuevo, including volcadas, kicks above the knee, multiple guanchos
> Fantasia/salon tango
> cayengue
> tango music post 1950?s
> alternative/neo tango music
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Vince
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click Here View photos of singles in your area
> _________________________________________________________________
> View photos of singles in your area Click Here
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



--
cheers
tony


From larryrichy at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 13:19:50 2009
From: larryrichy at yahoo.com (Larry Richelli)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango 2000....for dummies
Message-ID: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

>Many Nuevo dancers have their own practicas and milongas in many places and do not disturb anyone either.

>Traditional
tango dancers do not mind to have separated milongas, as most of them
consider that Nuevo dancers disrupt their >dancing.

This is good. I just wish we could have separate festivals. For instance, Denver is advertised as a close embrace festival but man, it is not longer this way. You have two or three guys that can dance open nuevo pretty good and 20 other guy that want to be just like them that can't. This has really screwed up this festival and the line of dance, even though they have an alt milonga on one afternoon. 



      

From aron at milonga.hu  Mon Oct 19 18:46:40 2009
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:46:40 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Just do it
In-Reply-To: <582861.68809.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <582861.68809.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ADCEC50.7010400@milonga.hu>


> As for the difficulty of developing a separate milonga for nuevo dancers, what the heck do you think it was like creating a milonga in a city in the first place?  Hello!!!  My first weekly milonga had 15 people at its grand opening, and dropped to 5-7 people a week for months at a time when my city was losing population big-time.  Ten years later its at critical mass and I've stopped keeping counts long ago.  So don't say that 40-60 people at a milonga is not enough people.  That's an insult to those in your community that started with only a handful of people and worked their butts off to make a viable community.  If nuevo and traditionalists can get along great in your community, then fine.
>   
I think I am not bragging if I say, I was (am) one of the few who made 
it happen. As for traditionalists and nuevo getting along, there is only 
one teaching couple who can be called traditionalist (actually they 
dance mostly canyengue) in Hungary (they organized the first milonga, 
but the scene did not grow for ages as this milonga grew out of a 
practica for their single class in the week and they had a very little 
interest in expanding further). Their students frequent all the other 
milongas with heavy nuevo influence and vice versa. Also, the teachers 
themselves are pretty much interested in nuevo lately as a possibility 
to further their studies.
> If you're passionate about something, work on your own to create it.  Don't rely on the backs of others to do the work for you.  Yes, it can be a financial risk, but so was the first milonga in your community.
>   
Please, tell me about it... The first (or really any) milonga in Hungary 
at the beginning was no real risk as places were cheap to rent (if any) 
and taxes are still not collected if you don't pay them voluntarily 
(although a few month ago one of the milongas were hit by ~IRS 
equivalent agents). Of course, when you have a large school (such as I) 
and a milonga in it, it is unwise not to. I am the founder of probably 
the only dancestudio in Hungary which DOES take the risk, and most 
likely one of the really very few organizers in Europe (next time you 
visit a festival see if you get any invoice, check if there is a proper 
company bank account, tax number - PayPal is the best money laundering 
tool there is) who pay its taxes as required - which at present time 
means a personal tax rate of over 60%, plus a VAT of 25%, along with 
costs that are - at PPP - over three to five times higher than in 
Austria, our neighbour. The result is that a milonga with 60 people is 
not even breaking even (that, considering zero rental fee as we are the 
organizers). Price increase is not an option as people would just quit 
dancing if we would.

If this is to be an international mailing list, please start to think 
globally, as - apparently - our problems are not at the same stage all 
over. Also, at some places the evolution of the scene solved some 
problems that still exist in others (strangely, in the older ones). I 
believe that many problems with communities in Western Europe and the US 
is that there are a lot more beginners around at a milonga. I suspect, 
that the tendency that most Hungarians - even with a lot of 
encouragement by the teachers - can't imagine themselves to be able to 
dance at a milonga without feeling inferior for at least a year or more, 
while your average German or US couple will start to visit a milonga 
right away (or even before attending a single class - happened here a 
few times: mostly with expats), produces an entirely different general 
level of skills at the milongas (unfortunately after this point many 
people stall in their development - especially the 'traditionalists').

Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4523 (20091019) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Mon Oct 19 18:52:49 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:52:49 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango 2000....for dummies
Message-ID: <d31.58cecacc.380e47c1@aol.com>

Larry the same thing happened at the San Diego  Festival last year. A few 
people showed up and not only disrespected the floor  but also had a shouting 
match on the dance floor with one of the guest  instructors. Same close 
embrace festival? 

In a message dated 10/19/2009  3:08:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
larryrichy at yahoo.com writes:
>Many  Nuevo dancers have their own practicas and milongas in many places 
and do not  disturb anyone either.

>Traditional
tango dancers do not mind to  have separated milongas, as most of them
consider that Nuevo dancers disrupt  their >dancing.

This is good. I just wish we could have separate  festivals. For instance, 
Denver is advertised as a close embrace festival but  man, it is not longer 
this way. You have two or three guys that can dance open  nuevo pretty good 
and 20 other guy that want to be just like them that can't.  This has really 
screwed up this festival and the line of dance, even though they  have an 
alt milonga on one afternoon.  




_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing  list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l  


From flame at 2xtreme.net  Mon Oct 19 19:25:55 2009
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:25:55 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy ?ron)
Message-ID: <4ADC9313.27528.6CE263@flame.2xtreme.net>

The same video of Gustavo & Giselle appears in two different sections in 
TangoandChaos. In Chapter 6 "The Nuts & Bolts of Tango" Ground Rules 
he clearly describes their dancing as Stage Tango. 

"The basic differences between stage and social tango should be clear. The 
video begins with Miguel Balbi and his partner, and Alberto Dassieu and 
Elba Biscay. All are milongueros. Then Gustavo Naveira and his partner 
Giselle are shown dancing stage tango. You can see right away that he 
picks up his feet, kicks, and moves his left arm around more than the 
milongueros. He and Giselle also separate and do large leg swings and 
poses. Unlike the milongueros, they move their bodies around, and dance 
apart from each other. It's a more physically active and demonstrative way of 
dancing because it's designed to entertain an audience: Stage tango."

So it seems he was using the clip to, in his mind, humerously illustrate a 
point. 

Diane

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 20 00:31:01 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:01 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy ?ron)
In-Reply-To: <4ADC9313.27528.6CE263@flame.2xtreme.net>
References: <4ADC9313.27528.6CE263@flame.2xtreme.net>
Message-ID: <012601ca513e$22e3d820$68ab8860$@net>


Diane, you wrote:
>>>
In Chapter 6 "The Nuts & Bolts of Tango" Ground Rules 
he clearly describes their dancing as Stage Tango...
So it seems he was using the clip to, in his mind, humerously illustrate a 
point. 
<<<
Sure, it's clear he was trying humorously to make a point (at Gustavo &
Giselle's expense) by his thinly veiled suggestion that Gustavo & Giselle
are useful examples of "stage dancers" (clip 1) who don't understand how to
behave courteously in the milonga (clip 2).  Don't you think that's the
basic message of these two uses of the video?  Don't you think that's the
thinly veiled message he intends his readers (often uninformed - see many of
the comments) to take away?

Yet, one could as easily argue that it is Gustavo and Giselle who are the
examples of very appropriate behavior, because they are apparently working
quite well at their job - because the purpose of ALL the dancers on that
stage is to entertain the audience, right?

Really, would it have cost him much at any point to at least point out the
fact (non-obvious to the uninformed reader) that this was NOT a video of
social dancing at all, but a performance where some performers were using
elements of their social dance onstage for the pleasure of the audience? 

Rick's an interesting guy - he and I have never met, but I respect his
devotion to his tango calling.  His writing style is often enlightening and
enjoyable.  He effectively conveys the sense in his blog that we are
listening in to a real cultural anthropologist at work.  Of course he's
entitled to think whatever he wants about Gustavo and Giselle, and as I
said, I've very much enjoyed a lot of his work. 

But I think he slacked off his usual journalistic standards here, for
whatever reasons, and he chose to do so very pointedly at Gustavo &
Giselle's expense, and quite enjoyed doing so on one occasion.  OK, it's not
a journalistic tragedy, but it doesn't raise his standing as a reporter in
my eyes.

The fact that he is pretty fast and loose with his interpretations of the
interviews with Gustavo & Fabian (hey, how about a link to the originals,
unless you don't want us drawing our own conclusions?) suggests that his
purpose in these sections is not to inform, but to "entertain" - and to
entertain prejudices he hopes to foster through selective misleading
reporting...Fox News, anyone?  
(Full disclosure - I conducted one of the interviews, which can be found at
http://www.danceoftheheart.com/naveirainterview.htm )

As far has his "humorous point": If Rick just wanted to use some available
video to tell his little fictional story, great, have fun, why not - but
then why go to so much effort to clearly identify the dancers (which seems
to take the "fiction" out of it, doesn't it?) except for the sake of the
misleading cheap shot that was my original point?

A former boss of mine told me a story about newspaper reporting once: "I
read a lot of newspaper articles in my local paper about things I don't know
much about.  Then once I read an article about a topic I DO know a lot about
- and it was total nonsense.  This makes me wonder why I should believe
their reporting anymore about things I don't know much about!"

So I have to say, since I know a lot about Gustavo & Giselle's dancing,
including his fifteen years of nightly dancing in the milongas of Buenos
Aires (a few years more than Rick, I imagine), that Rick's handling of this
"story" causes me to wonder whether I should give as much credence to things
he says about tango matters I don't know about.

I'd love to copy Rick on these messages, but I can't find an email address
on his blog, nor can I find a place to leave comments.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From rontango at rocketmail.com  Tue Oct 20 00:37:03 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <287167.98621.qm@web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Larry Richelli <larryrichy at yahoo.com>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 12:19:50 PM

> >Traditional
> tango dancers do not mind to have separated milongas, as most of them
> consider that Nuevo dancers disrupt their >dancing.
> 
> This is good. I just wish we could have separate festivals. For instance, Denver 
> is advertised as a close embrace festival but man, it is not longer this way. 
> You have two or three guys that can dance open nuevo pretty good and 20 other 
> guy that want to be just like them that can't. This has really screwed up this 
> festival and the line of dance, even though they have an alt milonga on one 
> afternoon. 

I've been to Denver twice, in 2004 and 2005, and to San Diego in 2007 (same festival concept). Navigation was pretty good in Denver the times I went, but some of the locals in San Diego didn't realize it was a festival for social dancing rather than showing how well you could weave quickly in and out of the line of dance. Now San Diego 2010 has 2 prominent nuevo instructors scheduled. One has to wonder if Denver will follow suit. It's beginning to look like there may no longer be any festivals in the US where a tango milonguero dancer can find solitude away from the nuevo invasion. It looks like we will have no other option than to go to Buenos Aires to find milongas with a supportive social dancing atmosphere. That wouldn't be bad if it weren't so far away. 

Ron


      


From stermitz at tango.org  Tue Oct 20 02:09:22 2009
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:09:22 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <287167.98621.qm@web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<287167.98621.qm@web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>

As the organizer for the Denver & San Diego festivals, I can reassure  
you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: "By  
Dancers; for Dancers". The milongas are arranged for social dancing:  
good djs, rectangular dance floor with tables and chairs around the  
periphery, tandas of traditional social tango, and cortinas for  
partner changing.

For Larry: Navigation is never as good as we would like; It's not  
really as bad as we fear; there are often a few loose cannons;  
tolerance helps.

For Ron: Homer Ladas is famous as a skillful nuevo dancer. He is also  
extremely good at navigation and social dancing. Jaimes Friedgen is  
not far behind. Brigitta Winkler has studied extensively with Gustavo,  
has a long history at performance dance, and was instrumental in the  
introduction of milonguero to the US and Europe.

So, yes, all three are famous for their nuevo talent, yet all three  
are extremely good social dancers.

LOOK.

There are good navigators and bad navigators, no matter what style.  
I'm well known as a milonguero teacher and organizer, but the  
navigation issue is about social dancing, and context (class, stage,  
practice, milonga), not style. The good nuevo dancers all know how to  
dance socially and courteously in the milonga context.

I agree that the loose cannons can be irritating, but I have noticed a  
steady maturation of skill at the festivals over the years.

I've also noticed as steady decline of navigation skill and courtesy  
in Buenos Aires milongas since I first went there almost 15 years ago.


On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:37 PM, RonTango wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Larry Richelli <larryrichy at yahoo.com>
>>
>> This is good. I just wish we could have separate festivals. For  
>> instance, Denver
>> is advertised as a close embrace festival but man, it is not longer  
>> this way.
>> You have two or three guys that can dance open nuevo pretty good  
>> and 20 other
>> guy that want to be just like them that can't. This has really  
>> screwed up this
>> festival and the line of dance, even though they have an alt  
>> milonga on one
>> afternoon.
>
> I've been to Denver twice, in 2004 and 2005, and to San Diego in  
> 2007 (same festival concept). Navigation was pretty good in Denver  
> the times I went, but some of the locals in San Diego didn't realize  
> it was a festival for social dancing rather than showing how well  
> you could weave quickly in and out of the line of dance. Now San  
> Diego 2010 has 2 prominent nuevo instructors scheduled. One has to  
> wonder if Denver will follow suit. It's beginning to look like there  
> may no longer be any festivals in the US where a tango milonguero  
> dancer can find solitude away from the nuevo invasion. It looks like  
> we will have no other option than to go to Buenos Aires to find  
> milongas with a supportive social dancing atmosphere. That wouldn't  
> be bad if it weren't so far away.
>
> Ron

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207




From politas at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 02:12:39 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:12:39 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy ?ron)
In-Reply-To: <012601ca513e$22e3d820$68ab8860$@net>
References: <4ADC9313.27528.6CE263@flame.2xtreme.net>
	<012601ca513e$22e3d820$68ab8860$@net>
Message-ID: <4ADD54D7.8050509@gmail.com>

Brian Dunn wrote:
> As far has his "humorous point": If Rick just wanted to use some available
> video to tell his little fictional story, great, have fun, why not - but
> then why go to so much effort to clearly identify the dancers (which seems
> to take the "fiction" out of it, doesn't it?) except for the sake of the
> misleading cheap shot that was my original point?
>   
I've always considered the point of that section wasn't to point to 
individuals behaving badly, but to point out the kind of behaviour which 
does distress people and lead to people coming away with bad impressions 
of nuevo dancers.

Arguing about whether this person or that person dances rudely is 
irrelevant. What we should be talking about is "what kind of dancing is 
considered rude?" Isn't that a much better discussion? Won't that have a 
better chance of getting people to behave in ways that don't annoy others?


Myk,
in Canberra

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 20 08:07:31 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?Windows-1252?B?VmluY2UgQmFndZphdXNrYXM=?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:07:31 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] 1800+ posts on nuevo since 2003 on Tango-L
Message-ID: <SNT124-W592FA644294C013CFA5EA5AEC00@phx.gbl>



It will never end!!!
 
 

A few hours more trawling on Tango L has brought this classic:
 

?It would be helpful to tango event promoters outside Argentina to be clear in advertising if their events are designed primarily to support one dance or the other.?

 http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg06735.html

 
Like I said yesterday, make it clear what you organisers want and what is/is not allowed, everyone should be happy.
 

Cheers!



Vince
 
 
(Sent in plain text.  I hope!) 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how here
http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=823454

From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Tue Oct 20 10:40:38 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:40:38 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
Message-ID: <c19.64bfb7a6.380f25e6@aol.com>

Tom
We have attended all of the San Diego  Festivals and look forward to Dec 
31st. 2009.
We enjoy the music and the way  you organize the floor and of course the 
opportunity to dance with strangers  from all over the country.
This year we are putting our trust in you as the  organizer to provide a 
respectful floor so we can all enjoy the traditional  milongas ?By Dancers for 
Dancers? that has always been your  hallmark.
Respectfully
David y Gloria


In a message dated  10/19/2009 11:10:58 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
stermitz at tango.org writes:
As  the organizer for the Denver & San Diego festivals, I can reassure   
you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: "By   
Dancers; for Dancers". The milongas are arranged for social dancing:   
good djs, rectangular dance floor with tables and chairs around the   
periphery, tandas of traditional social tango, and cortinas for   
partner changing.

For Larry: Navigation is never as good as we would  like; It's not  
really as bad as we fear; there are often a few loose  cannons;  
tolerance helps.

For Ron: Homer Ladas is famous as a  skillful nuevo dancer. He is also  
extremely good at navigation and  social dancing. Jaimes Friedgen is  
not far behind. Brigitta Winkler  has studied extensively with Gustavo,  
has a long history at  performance dance, and was instrumental in the  
introduction of  milonguero to the US and Europe.

So, yes, all three are famous for their  nuevo talent, yet all three  
are extremely good social  dancers.

LOOK.

There are good navigators and bad navigators, no  matter what style.  
I'm well known as a milonguero teacher and  organizer, but the  
navigation issue is about social dancing, and  context (class, stage,  
practice, milonga), not style. The good nuevo  dancers all know how to  
dance socially and courteously in the milonga  context.

I agree that the loose cannons can be irritating, but I have  noticed a  
steady maturation of skill at the festivals over the  years.

I've also noticed as steady decline of navigation skill and  courtesy  
in Buenos Aires milongas since I first went there almost 15  years ago.


On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:37 PM, RonTango wrote:

>  ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Larry Richelli  <larryrichy at yahoo.com>
>>
>> This is good. I just wish  we could have separate festivals. For  
>> instance,  Denver
>> is advertised as a close embrace festival but man, it is not  longer  
>> this way.
>> You have two or three guys that  can dance open nuevo pretty good  
>> and 20 other
>> guy  that want to be just like them that can't. This has really  
>>  screwed up this
>> festival and the line of dance, even though they  have an alt  
>> milonga on one
>>  afternoon.
>
> I've been to Denver twice, in 2004 and 2005, and to  San Diego in  
> 2007 (same festival concept). Navigation was pretty  good in Denver  
> the times I went, but some of the locals in San  Diego didn't realize  
> it was a festival for social dancing rather  than showing how well  
> you could weave quickly in and out of the  line of dance. Now San  
> Diego 2010 has 2 prominent nuevo  instructors scheduled. One has to  
> wonder if Denver will follow  suit. It's beginning to look like there  
> may no longer be any  festivals in the US where a tango milonguero  
> dancer can find  solitude away from the nuevo invasion. It looks like  
> we will have  no other option than to go to Buenos Aires to find  
> milongas with  a supportive social dancing atmosphere. That wouldn't  
> be bad if  it weren't so far away.
>
> Ron

Tom  Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO  80207



_______________________________________________
Tango-L  mailing  list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l  



From grus.canadensis at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 11:43:32 2009
From: grus.canadensis at yahoo.com (Sandhill Crane)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>
Message-ID: <91093.88604.qm@web113116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

By the way, Tom, thanks for organizing the festivals,
I know it is a lot of work and I appreciate it a lot.

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Tom Stermitz <stermitz at tango.org> wrote:

> For Larry: Navigation is never as good as we would like;
> It's not really as bad as we fear; there are often a few loose
> cannons; tolerance helps.

I don't "fear" bad navigation. It was simply shoved in my
face at every milonga at the last Denver festival.

I think I've had my fill of tolerance. If I steer away
from some guy doing his 96 varieties of ganchos, it
gives him more room, and some other poor fool is stuck
next to him instead of me. That doesn't really improve
the situation.

> The good nuevo dancers all know how to  
> dance socially and courteously in the milonga context.

No, they DON'T. The students of Homer, Gustavo, etc learn
what the masters think is important -- namely, how to do
lots of visually interesting tricks. How to cope with
other people on the floor is secondary, at best.
How can we tell? Their students DO NOT learn that.

Thanks again for all your work to promote tango.
It really benefits a lot of people, myself among them.



      


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 11:49:32 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:49:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <91093.88604.qm@web113116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>
	<91093.88604.qm@web113116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910200849j6bf9a811o925673253c08340e@mail.gmail.com>

> If I steer away from some guy doing his 96 varieties of ganchos

It's 98 according to Naveira (
http://www.danceoftheheart.com/naveirainterview.htm ).
However, it's entirely possible that he only teaches 96.
It could be that the other two are Dim Mak ganchos and can be done only once...

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From 2tango99 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 14:32:21 2009
From: 2tango99 at gmail.com (michael)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:32:21 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
Message-ID: <e7bfb9e80910201132i37f5300cqecd6ff21957900a5@mail.gmail.com>

I felt very dejected last year at a small festival that had been my
favorite, (I still appreciate all the extraordinary effort that the
organizer puts into it)



My problem: I had to spend too much time and effort just keeping my
followers safe from some errant leaders apparently seeking attention.



I remember cutting one evening short because I just became too irritated
after having to present my back to two men who were speeding AGAINST the
line of dance, just to protect my partner.



I still treasure the shirt ?Real Men Dance Close? that  I picked up the
first time I attended the festival; it just did not seem to fit anymore.



Michael



Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: RonTango <rontango at rocketmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Message-ID: <287167.98621.qm at web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

----- Original Message ----
> From: Larry Richelli <larryrichy at yahoo.com>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 12:19:50 PM

> >Traditional
> tango dancers do not mind to have separated milongas, as most of them
> consider that Nuevo dancers disrupt their >dancing.
>

? It's beginning to look like there may no longer be any festivals in the US
where a tango milonguero dancer can find solitude away from the nuevo
invasion. It looks like we will have no other option than to go to Buenos
Aires to find milongas with a supportive social dancing atmosphere. That
wouldn't be bad if it weren't so far away.

Ron

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 20 21:44:01 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:44:01 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Denver Festival Milonga Floor Metrics Contribute to Lane
	Formation
In-Reply-To: <3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>
References: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<287167.98621.qm@web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>
Message-ID: <001001ca51ef$f806a8a0$e813f9e0$@net>

Tom wrote:

"As the organizer for the Denver & San Diego festivals, I can reassure  
you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: "By  
Dancers; for Dancers". The milongas are arranged for social dancing:  
good djs, rectangular dance floor with tables and chairs around the  
periphery, tandas of traditional social tango, and cortinas for  
partner changing."

One of the things I have always appreciated about the Denver festivals has
to do with the geometry of the portable dance floors that Tom brings in to
create nice milonga floors in carpeted hotel conference rooms.  Tom, please
correct my numbers if I'm off here, but the square components of these
floors look like they measure three or four feet on a side, and they are
edged with thin metal edges fit flush with the finished floor.  As I
navigate them, it's kind of comporting to know that these floor components
make really nicely dimensioned "lanes" on the floor, complete with 90-degree
turn angles, which approximate the 1-meter square "baldosa" tile idea
commonly used when discussing "dense dancing" skills in BsAs milongas (i.e.,
"tango al baldosa"). Even though in BsAs it's often far more crowded than
this (this past Sunday in Canning comes to mind) it still is a great visual
aid and psychological support to reinforce the tendency to form lanes as
crowding increases.  As a local, I sometimes don't go to every Milonga at
the festivals, so others who are complaining may be talking about events I
didn't attend. But when I've been in attendance, my experience is that
couples stayed within their lane as conveniently defined by these floor
tiles, and at least where I was, everything flowed smoothly. Sometimes it
got too dense for the lanes to be useful guides, but that level of crowding
was sporadic and unevenly distributed, and in any case didn't last long.

This clear lane specification really helps me relax as a leader, knowing
that those around me are inhabiting a mutually understood, comfortably
well-defined share of the immediate space, and as long as I and my partner
also stay within our share/square, everybody wins. 

An additional benefit to this consistency in floor layout at the festival -
learners who may struggtle with their first festival experience can take
away an easily understood quantifiable goal for their tango navigation
training for the next festival: Learn to dance comfortably and musically
within a well-defined square, in whatever way you choose, gradually shade
into using the next square as the ronda moves, and all dancers can expect an
equal shot at tango happiness.  

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 23:30:40 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Denver Festival Milonga Floor Metrics Contribute to
	Lane Formation
In-Reply-To: <001001ca51ef$f806a8a0$e813f9e0$@net>
References: <244404.90522.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<287167.98621.qm@web111810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<3B6283FB-2882-43F1-ADF6-EEB530BFC272@tango.org>
	<001001ca51ef$f806a8a0$e813f9e0$@net>
Message-ID: <68843.59113.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Brian Dunn brianpdunn at earthlink.net

> the square components of these
> floors look like they measure three or four feet on a side, and they are
> edged with thin metal edges fit flush with the finished floor.? As I
> navigate them, it's kind of comporting to know that these floor components
> make really nicely dimensioned "lanes" on the floor, complete with 90-degree
> turn angles, which approximate the 1-meter square "baldosa" tile idea
> > 
> This clear lane specification really helps me relax as a leader, knowing
> that those around me are inhabiting a mutually understood, comfortably
> well-defined share of the immediate space, and as long as I and my partner
> also stay within our share/square, everybody wins. 
> 

What a strange post from an experienced leader and teacher. 

Lanes, of course, are good but my navigation is mostly governed by 
the space and the?people around me. Looking at the floor tiles to assist 
navigation doesn't sound like a good idea, because?it would take my 
attention away from the music,?my partner and?the people around me. 

And, IMHO, looking down is just a terrible way to dance and certainly 
shouldn't be encouraged. I would say never look at the floor.

Jack


      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 10:25:50 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Denver Festival Milonga Floor Metrics Contribute to
	Lane Formation
In-Reply-To: <68843.59113.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <455573.79859.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Denver Festival Milonga Floor Metrics Contribute to Lane Formation
> 
> What a strange post from an experienced leader and teacher.
> 
> 
> Lanes, of course, are good but my navigation is mostly
> governed by the space and the?people around me. Looking at the floor
> tiles to assist navigation doesn't sound like a good idea, because?it
> would take my attention away from the music,?my partner and?the people
> around me. 

I don't find it strange at all, but experienced men such as Brian don't need to look directly at the floor when dancing.  They use periphery vision and look in the distance.  In the distance what do they see?  They see people aligned to the edge of the portable dance floor, which is squared to the walls of the room.  They can also see the metal thingies that hold the floor together, which form straight lines all along the dance floor.  That promotes order, even if it is only unconsciously.  Moreso than, say, a linoleum floor with a pattern of colorful circles sprinkled about.  

Having these portable dance floors delineates the dance floor much better than a wall-to-wall wooden floor with round tables around the edges.  Chairs can get pushed onto the dance floor, people can weave in out and of the dance floor.  The edge of the dance floor is less certain.  I'm sure Tom didn't plan it this way, but it seems to work out quite well.  

I think Brian's description can be a useful guide to newcomers at festivals or anyone else who is trying to improve their navigation.  

Trini



      


From don at aymta.org  Wed Oct 21 20:35:45 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:35:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
Message-ID: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>

With all the conversation about c?digos -- where did they start, how did 
they evolve?

Certainly not in the saloons, brothels, streets, ...  At the 
barrio/cultural association dances where tango was intermixed with the 
European Mazurka, Polka, Waltz ... ?  At the Teatro Opera? 

Don

From tanguerochino at netscape.net  Thu Oct 22 00:44:58 2009
From: tanguerochino at netscape.net (tanguerochino@netscape.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:44:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Toulouse-Part 5
In-Reply-To: <216292.956.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <216292.956.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CC20E98AA3E43E-6BF4-116AB@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com>

Hello Randy,

Thank you for writing about your experience at Toulouse.

I have not checked Tango-L for months.  Frankly, I've only read the 
list sporadically in the last few years. The discussions just bore me 
to tears.

Your posts reminded me of the reason that I first joined the list, back 
in 1999 or 2000.  There were discussions of style and technique for 
sure, but they seemed more useful, and maybe just a little less 
personal.  What really drew me to the list, though, were the posts by 
travelling dancers, describing their experiences in a far away city 
(tango is urban).  These travelling tangueros see things with a 
different eye, and their take on the local tango scene inspires dreams 
of travalling, if not motivation for planning one's own trips.

Your posts made my night most enjoyable.  Thank you.

Un abrazo tanguero.

Tanguero Chino

P.S.  I cannot find Part 3. I've even checked the archive.  Can you 
please post it again?  Thank you.


From professionalsguild at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 21:43:42 2009
From: professionalsguild at gmail.com (Phil Seyer)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:43:42 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango to SLOW waltz?
Message-ID: <b074f1780910211843p69cd6fb4o2b591f2e31e685b9@mail.gmail.com>

I was surprised a while back by a beautiful tango sounding slow waltz
played by a guest DJ from Argentina. Instrumentation definitely had a
Buenos tango quality, but it wasn't really tango in my mind because it
was in a very slow tempo and in 3/4 meter -- like a ballroom waltz,
only with bandoneon and other instruments used in tango. There were 3
clear beats per measure. Since I had never experienced this kind of
music at a milonga I wasn't quite sure how to dance to it. The usual
tango moves didn't seem to fit.

Sorry I don't know the tune, I tried to find out, but didn't get the
name of the music.

When I called this to the attention of the organizer of the milonga
some time later, she explained to me that it was a vals. I had to
explain to her that it was definitely not a vals because it was much
too slow for that.

Many people, it seems, aren't able to distinguish between 4/4 and 3/4
time. I've heard ballroom dance teachers, who should know better,
introduce a tune as Foxtrot (4 beats per measure) when it was actually
a waltz with 3 beats per measure.

Has anyone else heard a *slow* tango sounding tune with 3 very slow
beats per measure? How did you dance to it?  What are your thoughts?

Phil Seyer
www.Argentine-tango.com

From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Thu Oct 22 09:20:04 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>
Message-ID: <199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

The tango codes ..... they are like the head of the cod fish , everyone talk about it , and nobody has seen one, ever....
I tried to get information , but? I found elusive attitudes here in Buenos Aires , with old milongueros/as . They simply said " tango codes are to be respected " and that was it , end of the conversation.
After 10 years of visiting milongas , not all of them , but more or less, one or two of each type (salon, open air, social club, young people, etc..) , I can there are some codes, that depend on the place . This codes are not universal , in one place there is done something, in another place the opposite.
?
1) the host of the milonga do not dance with the dancers that come to dance to the milonga . Maybe he/she , will dance at the end of the night, with his co host , or the elder dancer still on the place . The different arguments I received from hosts, is that they have to take care of the people, places, waiters, music, wardrobe, artists, live music, etc.etc.. so they simply could not put their mind into dancing. They prefer to go to other milonga to dance, in a day where their milonga is not open. However last saturday at viejo correo, the host , danced with an old milonguero. It was a quiet night, not too many couples dancing, and it was early, so the night do not have more major changes, I suppose.
?
2) tandas have to be tango, milonga and valsecito, only. This is something that I heard from organizers that do this , they say " we respect the codes, no other music here , if you want latin or salsa, ?go to a disco" . However some milongas, include a tanda of cumbia, a tanda of swing/jazz , and a tanda of chacarera? , like Club El Fulgor in?Villa Crespo.?This code is .... to be bend but not to be broken it seems...

3) milonga starts when?a couple of dancers ,?usually the elder ones, or the most respected, enter to the dance floor?. The other couples wait for this couple to open the night . Sometimes there are nods?between the?elders, to see who will be the first to go , it depends on the music the DJ plays, some?elders like to dance D Arienzo?to start ( La Baldosa organizer Susana at El Pial , like to play D Arienzo as opener). Other milongas just play at random, until , maybe , a tanda of valsecitos trigger the audience into the dancing floor ( like Salon Canning on a friday night)

4) If the milonga sort the?dancers in areas?of couples, and alones, it is not a good manner to ask a woman in a table with a man, to dance , unless?they are common friends. Sometimes couples ( married couples?I mean?), show their intention to dance with?other people, by sitting in different tables.

5) taxi dancers are to be ignored. This is a relative new code . The local tango community do not like taxi dancers activity. It is known when a taxi dancer comes, since it stays with the same woman all the night , and is clear they are not a married couple.?Also their faces at the table , are faces of partners in a business agreement, not a couple looking the dance and commenting or sharing experiences.? More or less like a horse/mare ?rent for a ride in horseback.
?
6) The tango "Adios muchachos " is a bad jinx, it is not to be played, never, ever.? It?the name of the tango is pronounced , men have to hold one of their balls, and women one of her teets, is bad luck, specially for dancers ( maria nieves commented this jyink in robert duvall?s movie "assesination tango"?.
?
7) in old times, there was a man? that made a control of the dancers, if someone makes a figure that was not estrictly social dancing ( boleos or colgadas ), it came from behind , tap the shoulder of the person and said " mister, here we dance to the floor , do not do that again". If the person make the non authorized step again, it was taken away from the place.
?
8) if a man takes a woman to dance, it is not polite to dance only one tango of the tanda, the tanda has to be danced complete, and then escort the lady back to her table. Although this code of complete tanda, is respected, the other code, to escort the lady back to her table, is not fulfilled thoroughly .
?
?
Unfortunately, there is not a syllabus of tango codes, it would be something very useful,. There are opinions and comments, that are individual , I try to summarize what I have seen, there has to be a lot more of tango codes, and each milonga place, has their habits .
?
I would like to say that the direction of dance (counterclockwise) is a tango code respected, but .... it is not respected anymore, maybe in two or three places like El beso, Sunderland. Sin rumbo ....
?
?
alberto
?




________________________________
De: Don Klein <don at aymta.org>
Para: tango-l at mit.edu
Enviado: mi?, octubre 21, 2009 9:35:45 PM
Asunto: [Tango-L] ?C?digo -- historia?

With all the conversation about c?digos -- where did they start, how did 
they evolve?

Certainly not in the saloons, brothels, streets, ...? At the 
barrio/cultural association dances where tango was intermixed with the 
European Mazurka, Polka, Waltz ... ?? At the Teatro Opera? 

Don
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/

From abungureanu at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 23 15:11:28 2009
From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 21:11:28 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>
	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>



Am 22.10.2009 15:20 schrieb Alberto Gesualdi :
> Unfortunately, there is not a syllabus of tango codes, it would be something very useful,. 
not a syllabus, but a collection is here:
http://www.tangosalon.com.ar/embracing.html
"It also discusses the Milonga Codes - set out for the very first time - 
and strategies and suggestions designed to encourage dance invitations 
and their acceptances."

cheers Andy


From c.roques at mchsi.com  Fri Oct 23 15:42:42 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:42:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango to SLOW waltz?
Message-ID: <102320091942.19430.4AE20731000D6F5900004BE6223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Phil wrote:


<<<Has anyone else heard a *slow* tango sounding tune with 3 very slow 

beats per measure? How did you dance to it? What are your thoughts?>>>


Actually there have been quite a few tango waltzes over the years that were slow.  They just were not the popular ones and DJs tend to not play them.  If you dig into more and more tango music eventually you will hear slow ones.  I have always like dancing to waltzes so I have purposefully searched for CDs that have them and have made some interesting discoveries over the years.  Most of the ones we know, like those by D'Arienzo and Tanturi, for example, tend to be faster but two that come to mind, Juan de Dios Filiberto's "Tus Ojos Me Embelesan" and Roberto Firpo's "Ondas Sonoras" are both very slow.  What obviously defines a waltz is the 3/4 tempo, not the speed.   It is probably about dancing at a comfortable pace and very slow tango waltzes "seem" to drag out so it was natural evolution to speed them up to the pace of other tangos.  It might depend on your dancing style and choice of steps, because there are some tango steps that don't work well in waltz.  I have choreographed to a slow Firpo waltz and like to dance to slow ones as well as fast ones, but admittedly you don't hear the slow ones very often. 
Cheers
Charles, 

From ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar  Fri Oct 23 20:31:30 2009
From: ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar (Maria Olivera)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:31:30 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTango-L=5D_=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>

Hello everybody,

Actually, there's a very interesting piece written about the etiquette
(codes). The website Andy mentions in his earlier message is our website,
and my partner (Gustavo Benzecry Sab?) published his "Embracing Tango -
Techniques and metaphors between tango and life" in 2006, in this book,
there's a whole section where he goes explains the origin of the codes, and
plus, he numbers and explains them all in depth, he checked all this
information with more than a dozen milongueros, including people like Carlos
Gavito, before writing them down. 

This book has been travelling with us for 3 years now, it's already in its
second edition, and a big number of Americans have it. You can e-mail us to
prensa at tangosalon.com.ar for further information about it.

Thanks Andy for posting the info before I could do it!.

Cheers,
Mar?a Olivera
www.tangosalon.com.ar 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] En nombre de
Andy Ungureanu
Enviado el: viernes, 23 de octubre de 2009 12:11 PM
Para: undisclosed-recipients:
CC: tango-l at mit.edu
Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] ?C?digo -- historia?



Am 22.10.2009 15:20 schrieb Alberto Gesualdi :
> Unfortunately, there is not a syllabus of tango codes, it would be
something very useful,. 
not a syllabus, but a collection is here:
http://www.tangosalon.com.ar/embracing.html
"It also discusses the Milonga Codes - set out for the very first time - 
and strategies and suggestions designed to encourage dance invitations 
and their acceptances."

cheers Andy

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 13:47:48 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:47:48 -0400
Subject: NA-E: [Tango-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>
	<008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>
Message-ID: <4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>

On the subject of codes, this morning I came across this Victorian dance 
code article that I find very interesting and think it's well worth the 
read for those interested in codicos. ( Milonga organizers take note 
too, as to the role of hosts!!!) These kinds of  dance hall codes really 
stem from human nature and the desire to avoid unpleasant circumstances 
between the sexes!
I found the 'In the Ballroom" section particularly interesting.
These codicos for Victorian ballrooms were in place just prior to the 
advent of tango...
happy reading...
Ilene

http://www.victoriana.com/Etiquette/ballroomdancing.htm

Maria Olivera wrote:

>Hello everybody,
>
>Actually, there's a very interesting piece written about the etiquette
>(codes). The website Andy mentions in his earlier message is our website,
>and my partner (Gustavo Benzecry Sab?) published his "Embracing Tango -
>Techniques and metaphors between tango and life" 
>
>  
>

From robinctara at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 14:41:11 2009
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:41:11 -0300
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IE5BLUU6IFtUYW5nby1MXSC/Q/NkaWdvIC0tIGhpc3RvcmlhPw==?=
In-Reply-To: <4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>
	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>
	<008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar> <4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860910241141g7ab0ffd5qb1b0e1071ff0eb1d@mail.gmail.com>

Codigos, New England, circa 1935.

My dad was a 6'6" lanky guy who should have been self confident, for all his
gifts. Sadly, he was a wimp. When he was to attend his first high school
formal, it had been arranged for him and his date to meet at his home. She
swept in, shook off her wrap and revealed her entire bare back. My father
quickly took his mother aside and said "Where do I put my hand when we
dance?" She pulled the handkerchief out of his pocket and handed it to him.
"Use this."

2009/10/24 Ilene Marder <imhmedia at yahoo.com>

> On the subject of codes, this morning I came across this Victorian dance
> code article that I find very interesting and think it's well worth the
> read for those interested in codicos. ( Milonga organizers take note
> too, as to the role of hosts!!!) These kinds of  dance hall codes really
> stem from human nature and the desire to avoid unpleasant circumstances
> between the sexes!
> I found the 'In the Ballroom" section particularly interesting.
> These codicos for Victorian ballrooms were in place just prior to the
> advent of tango...
> happy reading...
> Ilene
>
> http://www.victoriana.com/Etiquette/ballroomdancing.htm
>
> Maria Olivera wrote:
>
> >Hello everybody,
> >
> >Actually, there's a very interesting piece written about the etiquette
> >(codes). The website Andy mentions in his earlier message is our website,
> >and my partner (Gustavo Benzecry Sab?) published his "Embracing Tango -
> >Techniques and metaphors between tango and life"
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Robin Tara

http://www.taratangoshoes.com
http://www.tangotique.com

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 24 20:19:10 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:19:10 -0300
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTango-L=5D_=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>	<008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>
	<4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501ca5508$c6df9040$549eb0c0$@net>

Ilene, you wrote:
>>>
On the subject of codes, this morning I came across this Victorian dance 
code article that I find very interesting and think it's well worth the 
read for those interested in codices... 
http://www.victoriana.com/Etiquette/ballroomdancing.htm
<<<

Utterly fascinating, Ilene - thanks very much.

One of the great things about tangoandchaos.org is the deeply personal and
extensively detailed set of experiences Rick McGarrey shared about his years
of encounters with various codigos - I was going to try to pull out a page
ref, but his server is slow today...plus, I don't think they are really
collected in one place, if I remember right. 

Much like the field of comparative physiology explores how Nature has solved
similar physiological problems in different species (ex: how sharks and
dolphins solve the problems of being open-ocean top predators in such very
different ways) it could be fascinating to do a "comparative codigos"
study...

Anyway, your Victorian gem motivated a quick Google search for "milonga
codes" - for academically inclined French readers among us, there's a
fascinating sounding downloadable legal article which uses milongas and
their codes as an example of "everyday law" in the realms of personal
status, contract law (!) and highway codes (!!) (includes abstract in
English):
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1138280

It's thirty-five pages long, but for myself I hope some Francophone is
motivated to harvest some small goodies through translation for the rest of
us...

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 24 20:37:46 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:37:46 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Codigos ?...historia?
Message-ID: <SNT115-W6399FC981DAEF5687D4C8897BB0@phx.gbl>


  I just found something about "Cortinas" their origin which I wrote in 2001.
 
From: SERGIO [SERGIO at NCINTER.NET]
Sent: Dienstag, 13. Februar 2001 06:27
To: TANGO-L
Cc: SERGIO
Subject: Origin of "La Cortina" "Tener la lata"
 
I was saying before in reference to Argentine Tango:

"...It also could explain the fulfillment, of those needs, like in a dream,
absolute communication, intimacy, romanticism, fusion of two people in one,
true love that lasts only as long as the music plays."
 
This brings us to a possible origin for the famous "Cortina". A piece of
music that separates tandas.

The cortina plays and everyone stops dancing and goes back to his table.

The following is explained by many old milongueros:
 
In the early times tango was danced in academias, pirigundines, brothels,
clandestine casinos and bars.
The organizer charged every man a certain amount for every six minutes of
dance and paid the women a certain amount for the whole evening.

Later on men had to buy chips that they had to give to the women in order to
dance with them.

The moment to end the tanda, pay the chips, go and sit for a while was
announced by the 'Cortina'.
 
Those chips were metallic (de lata = made of tin). 
 
"Tener la lata" (to hold the chip or the tin) in slang means "to wait".

Le 'tuve la lata' por tres horas y finalmente pude verla.

I held the chip (waited) for three hours, finally I was able to see (talk
to) her.
 
This slang expression originated in the dancing halls were men waited for the ladies to be available while holding the chips to dance.

Most Argentineans use the expression but do not know the origin of it.
 
I wish that you do not have to hold the chip too long to find the lady of your
dreams.:0)
 
Best regards, Sergio
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 24 20:51:38 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:51:38 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Denver Festival Milonga Floor Metrics Contribute
	to	Lane Formation
Message-ID: <001701ca550d$502d43c0$f087cb40$@net>

Trini, you wrote: 
>>>
They use periphery vision and look in the distance.  In the distance what do
they see?  They see people aligned to the edge of the portable dance floor,
which is squared to the walls of the room...
Having these portable dance floors delineates the dance floor much better
than a wall-to-wall wooden floor with round tables around the edges.  Chairs
can get pushed onto the dance floor, people can weave in out and of the
dance floor.  The edge of the dance floor is less certain.  
<<<


Your comments on the defined edge of the floor being a key ingredient are
interesting - I think that has an even greater effect than the lines I
talked about, now that I think about it, because it really forces the dense
outer edge to define itself against this obstacle of the floor-carpet
boundary.  

It makes me wonder what it might be like to have glowing lines embedded in a
floor (still smooth of course) or perhaps just sharp-edged lines projected
from above?  Perhaps people would stay out of the overhead-projected beams
(& in their lanes)because they would otherwise be "spotlighted" as crossing
lanes as the beam climbed up their clothes...but then, some would do it even
more, just for fun...

Recently on Facebook, someone has been circulating a video of experiments in
the "Fun theory" - basically, raise the "fun" quotient of something
ordinary, and people will change their behavior to "have" the "fun".  They
showed a video of people choosing a flight of stairs over an escalator
because the stairsteps were made up to look like a piano keyboard, and
played notes as you climbed.

It would be interesting to speculate how to make it more "fun" to navigate
well at a milonga through such passive measures.  

Maybe the better idea would be to project well-defined "linear-V" cones of
light JUST into the lanes, so that leaving your lane would temporarily take
you into darkness?  It would at least make for some nice photographs!

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Sat Oct 24 21:07:59 2009
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Mel Roddie)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:07:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Slow waltz
Message-ID: <769354.46288.qm@web96115.mail.aue.yahoo.com>



Francisco Canaro's??? ?'Amor y primavera' ?? ?is a slower vals than most 'Tango Valses'.
Almost as slow as a?ballroom waltz if I remember rightly. Probably not as slow as you are talking about tho'.
Anyway it's quite nice and danceable with a strong walking beat.
Thanks, Mel
(NZ)

From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 21:20:34 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:20:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Toulouse--Part 6
Message-ID: <526171.63401.qm@web62501.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Tango in Toulouse--Part 6
Le Bikini Ramonville
Saturday, July 4, 2009
11:00

Janet, Robert, and I get lost on the highway again, trying to find "Le Bikini."  You'd think our misadventures arriving here a couple of nights ago would not be repeated, but they are.  I don't know why.  I almost believe the French have changed the signs on the traffic circles just to confuse us.  We do arrive, but only just in time.  The concert is in full swing.  We show our tickets to the doorpersons and hurry on in.  Janet goes directly to the dance floor.  She's been a popular partner at the festival, and is eager to build on her success.  Robert and I want to focus on the music, so we climb up onto the catwalk to enjoy an unencumbered view of the orchestra on the stage.

Tonight the featured orchestra is Stazo Mayor de Luis Stazo, with a special appearance by Alfredo Marcucci.  Marcucci, who began playing with Di Sarli in 1945, has to be helped on and off the stage by the younger members of the orchestra, but once seated, he plays his bandoneon with vitality.  There is something compelling about a group of young and old men playing powerful, passionate music together.  I think that this is one of  tango's attractions.  It crosses those cursed generational boundaries, bringing us together again, as we should be.  Culturally, too, tango unites us.  Born and raised in Argentina, nevertheless  it belongs to the world now.

Speaking of generational and cultural boundaries, I notice a pretty young woman in a burgundy colored dress standing near us on the catwalk, leaning forward on the railing, entranced by the orchestra.  I am entranced by the orchestra too, yet I manage somehow to admire the her rich head of black hair and her slender brown arms.  

During the break after the set is over, she turns to introduce herself.

"Pardon me for interrupting.  My name is Christine," she tells us.  "I heard you speaking English, and wanted you to know that I am always glad when I meet Americans traveling in Europe.  America is a great country, but you need to see the world more.  You need to be...what is the word...in French it is ouvert."

Ouvert.  Overt.  This one isn't hard to figure out.  "Open," I offer.  Robert speaks much better French than I do, but he seems willing to let me carry the conversation.  And she does seem to be speaking primarily to me.

"Open, yes, exactement!" Christine says brightly.  "It is a good thing for Americans to be more open to the world.  Have you been to Argentina?"

"Sept fois!" I boast.  I have this obsession, when traveling in a foreign country, of trying to speak the language, no matter how badly.

Christine plows on in English.  "Then perhaps you know the expression, 'Tango is a sad thought that dances?'"

"Un pensamiento triste que se baila,"  I say in Spanish.

"Un pensee triste que danse," she says in French.

We smile at each other, not the least bit sadly.

"Where are you from?" I ask, hoping she won't say something sarcastic, such as "from France."

"I grew up in Marseilles, but I live in Toulouse now.   I teach at the Universite."

"Vraiment?  What do you teach?"

"Developmental psychology."

"You mean, Piaget?"

"Yes, of course.  I studied with his protege.  And one time I saw Bowlby in person."

I look at her doubtfully.  "He must have been a very old man."

"It was shortly before he died."

I tell Christine that I have studied Piaget too, during my teacher training.  To describe my occupation, I use the same word that she uses--"professeur"-- but I suspect that there is a different word in French for someone who teaches at an elementary school.  I don't know the word for elementary school, either.

As we talk, the dance floor clears for a fashion show.  Tango dancers, both men and women, parade across the floor in a defile de mode, dressed in what looks to me no more exotic than their street clothes.  The show is interminable, but I am enjoying Christine's company.

After the fashion show, a couple of Parisians perform a cute, "rainy day tango," complete with special effects: sheets of stage lightning, "rain," and thunder.  

Then local performers have their turn.  Most are unexceptional.  Only one makes me lean forward on the catwalk railing to watch.  It is a stocky, bald-headed man with an absolutely perfect center of gravity.  He seems born to the tango.  "That's my teacher," says Christine.

"If I lived in Toulouse," I tell her, "he would be mine too."

More to come...



Copyright 2009 by Randy Cook







From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 22:05:36 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Toulouse--Part 7
Message-ID: <865754.28842.qm@web62507.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Tango in Toulouse--Part 7
Le Bikini Ramonville
Sunday, July 5, 2009
12:30 AM

The fashion show and performances are over.  The DJ is at work again.  Robert has gone off and found someone to dance with.  I smile at Christine.

"Voulez vous danser?"

"Yes, of course!"

I take her hand and lead her down from the catwalk.  We separate momentarily in the crowd, reunite on the dance floor.  Embracing her, I find she is a perfect fit.  This dance is going to be really good!  Now, if the choice were mine, what would I play for us?   I'm thinking it would be Di Sarli, something smooth and elegant to warm up with. Or maybe some Calo...

But no!  My God!  The DJ rudely chooses a milonga, and a fast one at that!   What a way to begin!  Can we manage this?

As if in answer to my question, I remember Christine's teacher in the exhibition tonight.  Heavyset and balding, he wasn't as pretty as some of the others.  Nonetheless, he was the one professeur de tango in Toulouse who danced like they do in Buenos Aires.  How?  By leading from the belly.  Hmm... I may lack the belly, but I can lead as if I had one, n'est ce pas?   And so we begin...

"Usually, when I dance milonga, I step all over the man's feet," says Christine, when the dance is done.  "Not with you, though."

"You know," I confide, "when the woman steps on the man's feet, the fault, the..." I search for the word in French, "faute is usually in the lead."

Christine likes this idea very much.  We dance another.  I throw in some "traspie."  She follows easily.  Pas de probleme!  And though the floor craft at Le Bikini is as bad tonight as it was on Thursday--people careening off each other like billiard balls--I find that Christine and I are quickly entering into a dimension where collisions don't happen, where the music carries us like kayaks in a flood, effortlessly slipping around every obstacle, sailing on unscathed.  Eventually, we even get some Di Sarli and some Calo!

Stazo Mayor comes back on the stage.  During their previous set, Christine and I were looking down on them from the catwalk.  Now we're looking up.  The stage is quite high, and the dance floor rather dark.  I feel like we are in one of those religious illustrations on the altar of Saint Cecile in Albi, where the souls in limbo are drowning in a dark pool and appealing to the angels on high.  Angels with bandoneons instead of harps... DJ music is all well and good, but there is nothing like the power, the presence of a live orchestra.

"Music hath the power to tame wild beasts..."  I note the drape of Christine's burgundy dress over her smooth brown shoulder, the dark cascade of her hair, and around us the blue light of the rock club lighting system.  The rest is pure motion.  I have no other thoughts in my head..  

When it seems we've been dancing together for an unpardonably long time, I ask, "Have you had enough?  Do you want to stop?"

"No," she says.  "Please!"

So we finish out the set.

I dance with other women later.  My senses seem sharper than normal.  The dimension I inhabited with Christine doesn't just disappear, but continues for the rest of the evening.  Then it is really late. Janet and Robert are probably anxious to leave.  I look for a place to change back into my street shoes, and find Christine in one of the chairs not far from the catwalk where I met her.  She's got on her street shoes and is holding her dance shoes in a bag in her lap.

"Comment ca va?  How is it going?"

She invites me to sit down with her, but seems very quiet.  Then she asks, "Will you be at the despedida tomorrow afternoon?  Actually, this is already dimanche, Sunday, so I suppose I should say this afternoon."

"I'm afraid not.  My friends and I are going back to Limoges later this morning.  This is our last tango in Toulouse."

"Oh, I'm sorry."

She doesn't say anything else for a while.  I don't know if she is waiting for me to say something, or if she is just tired.  Anyone who dances tango knows this moment.  You meet someone on the dance floor who feels just right.  Then you ask, where do we go from here?  Usually, the wisest answer is "nowhere."  Tango doesn't translate well into normal life (whatever that is). 

I think of the nine time zones that separate us.  What are we going to do?  Write each other emotional emails about Piaget?  We certainly aren't going to be dancing very often.  So I say nothing.

Finally Christine gets up and takes my hand.  "Perhaps we will dance again next year."  We embrace one last time-- this time not for dancing, but to say goodbye.  Our despedida.  

When she is gone, I look for Robert and Janet.



Copyright 2009 by Randy Cook  








From abungureanu at googlemail.com  Sun Oct 25 09:50:01 2009
From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:50:01 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <001501ca5508$c6df9040$549eb0c0$@net>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>	<008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>	<4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>
	<001501ca5508$c6df9040$549eb0c0$@net>
Message-ID: <4AE45789.7000703@googlemail.com>



Am 25.10.2009 02:19 schrieb Brian Dunn :
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1138280
>
> It's thirty-five pages long, but for myself I hope some Francophone is
> motivated to harvest some small goodies through translation for the rest of
> us...
>   
The paper is nice, but hard to translate. Maybe the author, who 
undoubted dances tango and my even read this list could provide some  
summary.
The main message IMHO is "The milonga *is* the code"
"The milongas without code will then quickly cease to be magical places, 
up to finally looking much like the society around them. Competitive, 
individualistic, socially and generational segregated, milongas will be 
emptied of their meaning and of a certain social transcendence that 
ultimately, makes them havens of beauty."

magical dances to all
Andy



From tango22 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 17:45:32 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:45:32 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango to SLOW waltz?
Message-ID: <FCB30D90-B97D-4305-B18B-7EDC3A6CF85B@gmail.com>


Phil wrote......
Has anyone else heard a *slow* tango sounding tune with 3 very slow
beats per measure? How did you dance to it?  What are your thoughts?

Vals moved from slow to faster rhythm, over time.  Listen to any of  
the old Canaro valses to hear slow.  Rodolfo Cieri delighed in dancing  
his "canyengue" style valses to these old valses, with lots of foot- 
clicking decoration.  Slow vals gives much more opportunity for  
"double-double" timing (for want of a better expression).  It is much  
more challenging to create an interesting slow vals, but once  
mastered, it can be very beautiful.  You will also notice a number of  
distinctly Viennese valses, such as the beautiful Dolores (Canaro),  
available from ToTango.net.
Enjoy,
John

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 25 19:58:28 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:58:28 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Traduction tango codes
Message-ID: <SNT115-W50BB83FF00CA25D6A71F6397BB0@phx.gbl>


Dear friends this work on "Milonga codes" written in French by Frederic Megret
Mc Gill University, has over 35 pages. I translated page 12 that refers to the subject we were disussing. 
 
When I finish reading the original I might add to this initial translation.
 
 
Requirement for a certain individual behavior: (page 11-12)
 
Beyond the demand that you should know the dance, there are unwritten milonga codes, a call to a certain personal behavior, that one could describe as (more or less) " to know one's place"; for instance, as an example, never dance at a milonga anything that you do not know perfectly well. 
 
One should have a feeling of the role one is to play. In this respect there is no place for an excess of narcissism or of humility.
 
It is bad manners for instance to dance to attract attention, to show off; or even worse to look at oneself dancing in the mirror. This type of behavior is  considered to be vulgar, but it will also, eventually damage the reputation of your partner. It shows lack of respect for a certain ethic tanguera which is minimalist.
 
The "best" is the enemy of the "good". In this respect here one is situated at the opposite extreme of other social or sport dances and their ethics of competitiveness and performance.
 
Even if the elements of competition can be latent in tango, they must remain secondary in order not to affect the spirit of the milonga.
 
A good dancer will know how to find an equilibrium between a modest tango and certain moments of shine the same as the music itself has slow and dynamic periods.
 
The dancing floor is not a stage, and those that are sitting are not the public, it is important to dance first for your partner and eventually and in second place for the outside; in third place for oneself.
 
To forget oneself is the best road to tango extasis.
 
On the other hand it is important to consider oneself as a dancer. It is not useful or appropriate, for instance to apologize after each mistake.
 
This turns the dance into an unpleasant experience.
 
When you denigrate yourself again and again this translates into lack of confidence, something that is incompatible with dancing tango.
 
Turning to another subject, beyond self complacency or morality, Milonga defines its subject not as a client or consumer but as somebody we could call a citizen milonguero.
 
It is expected that not only he will not be an "offender" but that he will provide his stone to the edifice of the milonga.
 
In summary what is demanded from a milonguero, up to here, other than the "rituals of preparation"(1) is to  minimally know how to dance and not to be presumptuous.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
(1) rituals of Preparation for the milonga is another chapter.
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 25 23:48:42 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Traduction tango codes
Message-ID: <668601.66557.qm@web62507.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Dear "Citizen Milongueros,"

I hear echoes of the Paris Commune of 1871 in the work of this Frederic Megret.  It isn't merely an essay on codes of the milonga, but of the role of the citizen in a ideal democratic society.  Perhaps this is what we should aspire to be, both on and off the dance floor!

Many thanks,
Randy Cook 


--- On Sun, 10/25/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Traduction tango codes
> To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Date: Sunday, October 25, 2009, 4:58 PM
> 
> Dear friends this work on "Milonga codes" written in French
> by Frederic Megret
> Mc Gill University, has over 35 pages. I translated page 12
> that refers to the subject we were disussing. 
>? 
> When I finish reading the original I might add to this
> initial translation.
>? 
>? 
> Requirement for a certain individual behavior: (page
> 11-12)
>? 
> Beyond the demand that you should know the dance, there are
> unwritten milonga codes, a call to a certain personal
> behavior, that one could describe as (more or less) " to
> know one's place"; for instance, as an example, never dance
> at a milonga anything that you do not know perfectly well. 
>? 
> One should have a feeling of the role one is to play. In
> this respect there is no place for an excess of narcissism
> or of humility.
>? 
> It is bad manners for instance to dance to attract
> attention, to show off; or even worse to look at oneself
> dancing in the mirror. This type of behavior is?
> considered to be vulgar, but it will also, eventually damage
> the reputation of your partner. It shows lack of respect for
> a certain ethic tanguera which is minimalist.
>? 
> The "best" is the enemy of the "good". In this respect here
> one is situated at the opposite extreme of other social or
> sport dances and their ethics of competitiveness and
> performance.
>? 
> Even if the elements of competition can be latent in tango,
> they must remain secondary in order not to affect the spirit
> of the milonga.
>? 
> A good dancer will know how to find an equilibrium between
> a modest tango and certain moments of shine the same as the
> music itself has slow and dynamic periods.
>? 
> The dancing floor is not a stage, and those that are
> sitting are not the public, it is important to dance first
> for your partner and eventually and in second place for the
> outside; in third place for oneself.
>? 
> To forget oneself is the best road to tango extasis.
>? 
> On the other hand it is important to consider oneself as a
> dancer. It is not useful or appropriate, for instance to
> apologize after each mistake.
>? 
> This turns the dance into an unpleasant experience.
>? 
> When you denigrate yourself again and again this translates
> into lack of confidence, something that is incompatible with
> dancing tango.
>? 
> Turning to another subject, beyond self complacency or
> morality, Milonga defines its subject not as a client or
> consumer but as somebody we could call a citizen
> milonguero.
>? 
> It is expected that not only he will not be an "offender"
> but that he will provide his stone to the edifice of the
> milonga.
>? 
> In summary what is demanded from a milonguero, up to here,
> other than the "rituals of preparation"(1) is to?
> minimally know how to dance and not to be presumptuous.
>? 
> Best regards, Sergio
>? 
> (1) rituals of Preparation for the milonga is another
> chapter.
> ? ???
> ????????
> ?????? ???
> ? 
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



From sl at stevelittler.com  Mon Oct 26 01:11:44 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:11:44 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4AE45789.7000703@googlemail.com>
References: <4ADFA8E1.7030707@aymta.org>	<199921.54425.qm@web46006.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4AE1FFE0.3000201@googlemail.com>	<008a01ca5441$557ad080$00707180$@com.ar>	<4AE33DC4.6020706@yahoo.com>	<001501ca5508$c6df9040$549eb0c0$@net>
	<4AE45789.7000703@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <4AE52F90.6050008@stevelittler.com>

You can probably get a satisfactory and FREE translation here.
http://translate.google.com/translate_t#

You can enter the text or upload the whole document.

I use Google frequently for translations when studying Spanish and other
languages. I like it better than other language translation sites I have
used.

El Stevito de Gainesville

Andy Ungureanu wrote:
> Am 25.10.2009 02:19 schrieb Brian Dunn :
>   
>> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1138280
>>
>> It's thirty-five pages long, but for myself I hope some Francophone is
>> motivated to harvest some small goodies through translation for the rest of
>> us...
>>   
>>     
> The paper is nice, but hard to translate. Maybe the author, who 
> undoubted dances tango and my even read this list could provide some  
> summary.
> The main message IMHO is "The milonga *is* the code"
> "The milongas without code will then quickly cease to be magical places, 
> up to finally looking much like the society around them. Competitive, 
> individualistic, socially and generational segregated, milongas will be 
> emptied of their meaning and of a certain social transcendence that 
> ultimately, makes them havens of beauty."
>
> magical dances to all
> Andy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   


From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Mon Oct 26 08:51:55 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:51:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?_=BFC=F3digo_--_historia=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4AE45789.7000703@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <106283.70104.qm@web46002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



Thank you Andy, I will read this paper, and translate part of it, is too long for the standard messages of tango L policy, to copy all.

One difficult that I see with this works, as well as the note of Benzecry Saba on milonga codes, is the ... let s say " fairy tale" approach. 

Once the writer starts to describe or comment something, it takes it out from what it is, a real place with an everyda changing life, to a mental construction, a label if you want .

To give an example , Benzecry Saba comments on a tango academy , the Gaeta school. so the reader, today , year 2009 , tend to imagine a tango school like the schools are today.

A friend of mine, long milonguero experience, came from his town of a province, 2.000 km aways from Buenos Aires, to work and study here. He dance some tango in his town, but their experience was in folklore dances. So he see this advertisement on a newspaper ( this was the 60?s , almost 50 years ago), and went to this Gaeta " school". On his own words, he find a filthy hole , where some people come and go, without a true teaching, but some practice , erratic , without a syllabus or method. One of the assistants was Todaro , mainly his assistance was to lead pupils or to make them lead, years later he made his "Todaro" method.

this is something that has to be taken into account. There were no "teachers", but people that dance. On the 80's some other people here in Buenos Aires, notice there was demand for tango teachers, and take this men and women, who was very simple people ( some of them , living on a small pension as public servants retired ), and present this "tango apilado" style , as something that was the authentic argentine tango.

This brand of "styles" was something made for marketing reasons . Another  old milonguero told a researcher on tango history , with his naive vision " let me see if I understand, you are working on an university paper , explaining what we do inside this milonga ?? And your teachers at the university thinks this is a subject ?? How wonderful !!"


alberto



      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Mon Oct 26 11:01:59 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:01:59 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga "Codigos"
Message-ID: <4AE5B9E7.4000705@shahrukhmerchant.com>

This term has been bandied about a lot. It doesn't help that the word 
"codigo" (code), while used in the sense of "social codes," nonetheless 
conjures up connotations of mystery and secrecy. I much prefer the term 
"Milonga traditions" as it suggests it *is* in fact, a tradition, rather 
than a rigid code, and that it is to be respected as such.

The problem is further exacerbated by those who wish to use the 
so-called codigos as a weapon, to divide, rather than as a tool, to 
educate, which is antithetical to the spirit of the codigos. (I very 
much like tradition, but I hate hypocrisy even more.)

Ultimately, the "codigos" are nothing more than a statement of the 
obvious: "A man is expected to behave like a gentleman, and a woman like 
a lady." Nothing really new there, but sometimes people get so caught up 
in blindly trying to observe some perceived rule, that they forget about 
the basic principle behind it--some examples on this later.

I'll classify the codigos (I'll continue to use this term for this 
posting) into six categories:

1. COMMON SENSE CODES THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TRUE AND WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE

Examples: Don't crash into other couples of the dance floor (duh!), look 
where you're going so that you don't, don't take up more than your share 
of space. Basically, don't be a boor and spoil other people's fun. Even 
places that promote "no codigos" as a freer more liberal atmosphere are 
hardly advocating the people behave like jerks (they are mostly 
announcing that you can dance the style of your choice with the partner 
of your choice, inviting him/her in the manner that you want, dress as 
you like, etc.).

2. RULES FROM SOCIAL DANCE SALONS (ORIGINATED FROM EUROPEAN BALLROOM 
TRADITIONS FROM A CENTURY OR MORE AGO), THAT CONTINUE TO BE FOLLOWED IN 
THE MAINSTREAM AT LEAST.

Examples: Dance counter-clockwise (for dances that travel), man leads 
and woman follows, everyone dances the same dance (the one that matches 
the music that's being played) and is expected to have at least a basic 
vocabulary and knowledge of that dance to invite and/or accept. Basic 
standards of good dress and hygiene.

Alberto says that the "code" of dancing counter-clockwise does not seem 
to be followed anymore, but that is not true; counter-clockwise is still 
the only direction that one is expected to dance. What has deteriorated 
(and what Alberto probably meant, I suspect) is the enforcement of "need 
to have a basic knowledge of the dance," to the point that those who 
cannot even move in the right direction are permitted to keep dancing, 
to the detriment of the enjoyment of others.

3. *TRADITIONS* FROM SOCIAL DANCE SALONS.

Similar to (2) but more susceptible to change with the times. Some 
continue to be observed, while modernity has relegated others to 
quaintness. In some cases, like escorting the woman back to the table, 
men will get "caballero" (gentleman) points for continuing to observe 
them, but won't be ostracized for not doing so.

Examples: Escorting the woman to the table (situation and culture 
dependent--would be odd at an informal milonga or practica where there 
is no fixed seating, for example), man asks and woman accepts (or 
not)--this one is increasingly culture-dependent too, one dresses up to 
go to a Milonga, etc.

Note that there is NOTHING Tango-specific so far in any of these 
so-called codes. This is just general etiquette.

4. ARGENTINE OR LATIN SOCIAL TRADITIONS.

E.g., you don't try to "steal" another man's woman, not even for one 
tanda. This one is highly variable in Milongas now, even in Buenos 
Aires, but it depends a lot on the Milonga and on the dynamics. It is 
hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all rule here. You have to develop 
the sensitivity and play it by ear if you want to push the envelope on 
this one.

Anecdote: I was at a traditional milonga a few nights ago where I 
wouldn't even dream of asking the woman in a couple (Argentine) who had 
clearly come together and were seated by themselves. The man, however, 
sent me a message via one of the people at my table for me to ask the 
woman to dance as she wanted to dance with me. I looked up, and they 
were both nodding furiously towards me! This "here take my woman" forced 
reverse cabeceo (sounds like something out of an Olympics gymnastics 
narration, doesn't it?) did put me in a bit of a spot, but it was both 
amusing and mildly flattering so I didn't mind.

Anyway, these rules cannot be applied arbitrarily in other cultures and 
other countries, but in most if not all cultures, it would be considered 
in poor taste to interrupt a starry-eyed couple holding hands and gazing 
into each others' eyes, in order to ask one of them to dance. But there 
is a lot in between the extremes that just cannot be treated as 
black-and-white anymore.

For the most part, at least in Buenos Aires, it is still safe to say 
that if there is a table with exactly one couple, or maybe a table with 
two couples (who act like 2 couples rather than a group of 4), then they 
are off limits to others. Exceptions to this will be signalled by the 
man inviting another woman to dance (which is no longer met with the 
consternation with which it used to be, even in the more traditional 
milongas). The cabeceo certainly helps here!

5. MILONGA-SPECIFIC CODIGOS.

Those that may have had their origin elsewhere, but are usually not seen 
outside a milonga, or have no meaning outside of a milonga.

Examples: Dance through the end of the tanda, always stop dancing with 
that person and leave the floor at the end of the tanda.

6. "PRESERVATIONIST" CODIGOS.

Those invented and promoted by certain individuals or groups of 
individuals who wish to preserve "the way it was" in the face of 
encroaching change, or in some cases simply for commercial or egoistic 
reasons, or more innocently as a personal preference. I'm not saying 
that they are good or bad--my personal opinion of them vary from case to 
case. But some examples of this:

- "Men don't dance with men (at Milongas) and women don't dance with 
women." This was rarely an issue until recent years. Anecdote: I went 
with a group of mostly-US friends recently to a traditional milonga (we 
were the only non-Argentines--we were also the only ones under 60 for 
that matter!). Two of the girls, after some trepidation, decided to 
dance a tanda with each other. Two of the regulars (men), gave them the 
thumbs-up sign ("we know this is unusual but go for it," would be my 
interpretation). A third came up to them later and said, "Women don't 
dance with each other at milongas," which flustered them enough for them 
to resume their seats. Draw your own conclusions, but it's not black and 
white. There is an woman organizer of a *traditional* milonga who will 
occasionally invite a woman to dance (at her milonga as well as others 
that she frequents).

- "You don't take pictures at Milongas," sometimes supplemented with 
some ridiculous claim that the reason is that so many people at Milongas 
are having extramarital affairs that a photo is likely to "fall into the 
wrong hands" and compromise the secrecy of the affair. (Oh, really!) But 
it is certainly annoying to have flashbulbs going off constantly, and 
certainly more so if people are taking pictures of the dance floor. But 
if someone is celebrating a birthday at a table, it is quite typical for 
them to take a few pictures when the cake is being cut. If there are 
enough people taking pictures, though, it does create somewhat of a 
circus atmosphere which takes away from the ambiance of the milonga.

- "Taxi dancers should be shunned." As stated by Alberto (I had never 
heard this before, but I don't doubt that some people perpetuate this). 
I suppose the logic is something like, "Well, if a prostitute came into 
a Milonga dressed like a slut, blatantly trying to pick up clients, 
would you stand for that?!" It's hardly the same, but it's a new enough 
phenomenon that the jury is still out on that. It is a sort of 
commercialism that can take away from the social atmosphere, especially 
in a Milonga with a large proportion of regulars. Milonga organizers 
undoubtedly are balancing the extra business that they get, with the 
number of regular clients that they are likely to displease. And of 
course it makes a difference how the taxi dancer conducts himself. If 
he's wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with "Latin Lovers Taxi Dancers" 
www.ILoveMyTaxiDancer.com 5555-5555" he's bound to get more snide 
comments and resentment than if he's elegantly dressed and discreet.

- "You never change your shoes at the table," you do it in the dressing 
rooms. (Excuse me, have you ever been to the men's room at a Milonga in 
Buenos Aires? Where, for example, in the men's room in El Beso, where 
there is barely standing room, can you be expected to change your shoes 
balancing on one foot?) Separate Tango and dress street shoes, at least 
for men, is a relatively new thing, so the older tangueros at 
traditional milongas don't have this issue. (Women's dressing rooms do 
seem to have more space for this.) That being said, it would be good 
manners at least to have a decent bag in which to put your street shoes, 
and perhaps check them in, rather than have them scattered about under 
the table.


Really, if you think about this, except for the few milonga-specific 
rules about dancing through the end of the tanda, etc., all of this can 
be boiled down to having social graces, being considerate and respectful 
of others, and behaving like a lady/gentleman. Since people are not born 
with this, and learn this to different degrees in their lives, and there 
is always some inter-generational friction on this point, there has 
always been and will always be the need for some kind of "unwritten 
rules" on the subject.

Try to respect them when you're in Buenos Aires, or their local versions 
when you're anywhere else for that matter, but remember that (a) they 
are evolving, albeit slowly, (b) that a loss of a tradition is not 
always an evolution--very often it's an irretrievable (though sometimes 
unavoidable) loss to society and (c) that sometimes people have their 
personal agendas and issues wrapped up in what they try to promote as an 
inviolable codigo.

Shahrukh

P.S. Just read Sergio Vandekier's translation of Frederic Megret's paper 
on Milonga codes (after writing the above). THANK YOU, Sergio (and 
Frederic, if he's listening). That was a beautiful translation of a 
beautiful work! "... the citizen milonguero ... will provide his stone 
to the edifice of the milonga." What a beautifully humbling sentence!

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 26 11:05:02 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:05:02 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Google translator
Message-ID: <SNT115-W32298CBBD58112E3AF0F4797BA0@phx.gbl>



Steve suggested that a good translation could be obtained using the Google translator so I went and tried to use it.
 
Translation: French ?Fran?ais 
Co ents is dangerous 
The ion in erdic or e classemen the case of the reverse as a maneuver 
dangerous, as in erdic ion groin certain figures like pheasant run rop risk 
(BOLEO, e ample), but little re ? ceu disposan to a height level of per e ise by icipen 
ime a legitimate defense of the res dancers, face emen s harmful behavior. Instead of 
feet are on the ground. This rule applies to e or e in women alons s.17 Also hau 
it is not a droi to finish a maneuver that would prevent ion movement, there is no droi at 
 
The above is what I obtained. My experience with electronic translators has been poor. In this case what happens is that when you use "copy" to copy the French version of the note, for some reason the copy is not right, it misses many letters in most words. Any solution for this?
 
Sergio 		 	   		  
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From stermitz at tango.org  Mon Oct 26 11:08:42 2009
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:08:42 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <1256427298.13582.1341756293@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1256427298.13582.1341756293@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <2F2C319C-970F-4019-8420-37A26F209499@tango.org>

Maybe you'd have to attend in order to understand, instead of  
imagining that a single youtube carries the whole truth.

We have seven milongas to try, each with a somewhat different focus.  
All of them are oriented to social dancing, i.e. non-show tango. They  
are pretty crowded, so large moves aren't very appropriate. Obviously  
you can't control everybody, so it is certainly possible to find a  
video of someone doing a big boleo at one of these festivals.

If you wanted to sit out one of the milongas, you could. Or, you are  
free not to come at all.


On Oct 24, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Chris, UK wrote:

>> As the organizer for the Denver & San Diego festivals, I can reassure
>> you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: "By
>> Dancers; for Dancers".
>
> Please, Tom, explain how your:
>
>  http://tango.org/2010sdfest
>  The 4th Annual San Diego Tango Festival will be a Southern California
>  treat for all tango dancers who love the social tango popular in the
>  milongas of Buenos Aires: close, subtle & romantic.
>
> squares with your:
>
>  Sat, 3:00 - 07:00, DJ TBA, "Alternative Music Milonga" $15
>
> and the likes of:
>
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI
>
> Or if the nuevo dancing at your festivals is any /less/ antithetic to
> BA-style social tango, please post a video to illustrate.
>
> --
> Chris

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207




From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Mon Oct 26 11:07:51 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] french written paper on milonga codes
Message-ID: <261283.37643.qm@web46002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I have been reading the paper that Andy Ungureanu mentioned in his previous post.
This paper is an annalysis of the milonga codes, as a kind of "non written codes for the everyday life" , the kind of legal contract we called here in Buenos Aires " ad hoc" , for instance, when taking a bus or a taxi cab, just by paying the ticket or the fare , there is a tacit agreement within the passenger and the driver, that in case of accident, can be used as ground for a legal claim. A non written contract.

This french paper is not bad , I found it amusing . On the core of the work, it is not about milonga codes on itself, but as a reference for this author, to explain how non written codes, within a legal frame , are being done..

The sources quotes for non written legal codes , are good, some legal works of Jutras, Reisman and Mac Donald, concerning this subject of non written contracts in the everyday life.

I will translate a part of the paper, that i found interesting , on page 3. I am not deeply fluent in french language, but like to read french authors, and this writer of the paper, Fredric Megret, from University Mc Gill from Canada, writes in plain french ( not dialect ) , is understandable. I am trying to follow his comments, as best as possible

alberto

" Ours,  will be an attempt to define the essential structure of the Milonga Codes,  as a system of laws or reulgations, to be able to appreciate the value of its origin and purpose. With that aim, we will try to understand the characteristics of the normative system "milonga" and the inherent characteristics related to tango as a dance on itself, so to be able to annalyze furthermore the nature of the social regulations an the role of normatives, based on an agenda of research consisting in an understanding of  ,  how instituzionalized legal orders and everyday life can be understood in each other?s terms (Jutras ,2001, Legal dimensions of everyday life, p.51).

As a system of laws, the Milonga codes are an attempt to answer a regulation dilemma. A regulation dilemma is a dilemma born out from the need to regulate a social order. It consists in a knowledge an choose on what kind of values, what kind of purposes, and into what extent , such a regulation code would have to operate.

The codes , are conceived to be comprehensive of the particularities of the specific environment where they apply , that who is going to be regulated. The  milonga , as a site of regulation , presents many specific aspects. At the same time, the milonga reveals at the same time, the dance and the socialization. The tango rioplatense, is different from the stage tango due to their social aspect; and also it is different for the particularities of the dance, from a simple social gathering. In other words, the tango is here , more than a certain name to a cultural reference, but a kind of tango atmosphere where the tango is danced in a discreet fashion ( in a kind of environment of folklore expression) ,which is an integer part of social dance.. 

What is the dilemma for the regulation or codes for milonga ? It is more than one dilemma , to be a manifold set of dilemmas, that could be sinthetized as follows:

- How can a fairly large number of people , dance in  a limited space, allowing the development of intimacy, the co living and the keeping of forms of dance in harmony ?

- How can be done an inner area in an social universe that is motioned by individualities in contradiction, such as egoism ,the wanting for encounter, the competence, love, jealousy, erotic , ambition, oniric dreams and sensuality ? 

- How is it possible to do, with a social scope that is remarcable wide due to the diversity of ages , social position and cultural origins ?

- How is it possible, at last, to make perdurable a social phenomenon that has to adapt itself in order not to be a fossile / elephant cemetery , being at the same time , persisting alongside the evolving time line, without loosing their original authenticity ?

The answer to all this questions is the purpose of milonga codes , a rich heritage of regulations, transmitted from generation to generation, maybe not totally clear , maybe barroque , and generally , difficult to be revealed and to access.



      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From professionalsguild at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 00:46:22 2009
From: professionalsguild at gmail.com (Phil Seyer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:46:22 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Waltz
Message-ID: <b074f1780910252146g1db986e9ofa39984d6c369fc8@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding slow tango waltz, Mary Menz alerted me to A Las Cinco de la Girlada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyVrmBOURs

Thanks Mary!

From sl at stevelittler.com  Mon Oct 26 11:51:52 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:51:52 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Google translator
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W32298CBBD58112E3AF0F4797BA0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W32298CBBD58112E3AF0F4797BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4AE5C598.6060404@stevelittler.com>

Well on my system it did a very much better job of translation, although 
Google has made me unable to copy/paste the results here or into any 
text editor to show you the results.

And when I uploaded the whole document it still did pretty well through 
the first 33 pages of a 34 page document.

I agree with Sergio's comment on most other electronic translator's 
drawbacks though.

Steve

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> Steve suggested that a good translation could be obtained using the Google translator so I went and tried to use it.
>  
> Translation: French ?Fran?ais 
> Co ents is dangerous 
> The ion in erdic or e classemen the case of the reverse as a maneuver 
> dangerous, as in erdic ion groin certain figures like pheasant run rop risk 
> (BOLEO, e ample), but little re ? ceu disposan to a height level of per e ise by icipen 
> ime a legitimate defense of the res dancers, face emen s harmful behavior. Instead of 
> feet are on the ground. This rule applies to e or e in women alons s.17 Also hau 
> it is not a droi to finish a maneuver that would prevent ion movement, there is no droi at 
>  
> The above is what I obtained. My experience with electronic translators has been poor. In this case what happens is that when you use "copy" to copy the French version of the note, for some reason the copy is not right, it misses many letters in most words. Any solution for this?
>  
> Sergio 		 	   		  
>
>   



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 26 12:26:33 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:26:33 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Codes II
Message-ID: <SNT115-W18D6BAE2607F99AA4CCE7997BA0@phx.gbl>



La Piste (The dancing floor) page 19.
 
For instance, the rule that stipulates that one should dance counter clock wise (which undoubtedly expresses a metaphoric wish to resist the pass of time till late at night) is equivalent to the rule that one should drive on the right side of a road.
 
La pista (dancing floor) is a highway with many lanes (in general three) divided by yellow lines.
 
There are different opinions with respect to passing rules: about overtaking in general or passing during a change of direction of the line of dance, by some, others treat the "yellow line" with more flexibility mostly when dealing with couples that are particularly slow dancers.
 
It is, on the other hand, poor manners to overtake during traffic jams, this naturally should cause slowing down of the line of dance.
 
Passing on the right side, blind point for the leader, is absolutely forbidden, as such action can easily end up with an accident including the tables as well.
 
In case you arrive late to the dancing floor, the priority is for the couples that are already dancing.
 
Saludos, Sergio
 
La piste 
Par e emple, la norme selon laquelle l?on danse dans le sens con raire au  aiguilles d?une mon re 
(laquelle  e prime  sans  dou e  une  volon ?  m? aphorique  de  r?sis er  au  emps  jusque  ard  dans  la 
nui ),  es   l??quivalen   de  la  r?gle  qui  veu   que  l?on  roule  ?  droi e  sur  une  rou e.  La  pis e  es   une 
rou e  ?  plusieurs  voies  (g?n?ralemen   rois)  s?par?es  par  des  lignes  jaunes.  Les  avis  divergen  
quan  au  condi ions de d?passemen  : apparen ? ? un d?passemen  en c? e ou dans un virage par 
cer ains,  d?au res  in erpr? en   avec  plus  de  fle ibili ?  la  ligne  jaune  lorsque  confron ?s  ?  des 
couples consid?r?s comme par iculi?remen  len s ; il es  en revanche de mauvais  on de  en er des 
d?passemen s en si ua ion d?embou eillage, ce qui ne peu  que con ribuer au  ralen issemen s ; e  
les  d?passemen s  par  la  droi e,  angle  mor   du  meneur,  son   par iculi?remen   proscri s,  d?au an  
qu?ils peuven  ais?men  se solder par un acciden  de  able. En cas d?arriv?  ardive, la priori ? es  
au  couples d?j? engag?s sur la pis e.  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009

From jwalton at cix.co.uk  Mon Oct 26 12:37:00 2009
From: jwalton at cix.co.uk (John H. Walton)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:37 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] Google translator
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W32298CBBD58112E3AF0F4797BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <memo.20091026163730.5280A@john.walton4@btinternet.com.btinternet.com>

I suspect the problem was that the text copied into Google was in a
different character code-set to that expected by Google - i.e. the page
ended up with mixed and confusing code-sets (probably a combination of
single and multiple-bytes codes). Google is usually one of the best
translators around, and translators in general have improved
significantly over the last few years.  

PS: If you want to see something really impressive, watch a demo of
Google Wave performing real-time translations! i.e. you can key text into
a document, and another user of your "wave" can see the translation
character-by character as you type. As you complete a phrase the
translation changes as it better understands the context and grammar.   

Best Regards, John
http://www.danceweb.co.uk

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Oct 26 12:42:42 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:42:42 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Google translator
In-Reply-To: <1257357380170859410@unknownmsgid>
References: <SNT115-W32298CBBD58112E3AF0F4797BA0@phx.gbl>
	<1257357380170859410@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <13176a380910260942y1d5606c4s1ace28b29e309fbc@mail.gmail.com>

You can try babelfish at http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt

You can type the french web site in without copying and pasting the text. On
the babelfish page, select French to English.

Michael

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 12:37 PM, John H. Walton <jwalton at cix.co.uk> wrote:

> I suspect the problem was that the text copied into Google was in a
> different character code-set to that expected by Google - i.e. the page
> ended up with mixed and confusing code-sets (probably a combination of
> single and multiple-bytes codes).
>
> Best Regards, John
> http://www.danceweb.co.uk
>

From dchester at charter.net  Mon Oct 26 12:59:51 2009
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:59:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Waltz
Message-ID: <20091026125951.3NCGV.2370794.root@mp05>

Phil,

You appear to be saying that if the tempo of a vals is slow enough, then it is no longer a vals (and then becomes a "Tango Waltz", or something).  Am I understanding you correctly?  I thought that Vals is the Spanish word for the english word Waltz.  In any case, tangos do not have a 3/4 tempo.  Vals or Waltzes do, (although I must confess that I actually feel most vals with a 6/8 tempo, rather then a 3/4 tempo).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/vals

David


_______________________________________________
Phil Seyer professionalsguild at gmail.com
Mon Oct 26 00:46:22 EDT 2009

Regarding slow tango waltz, Mary Menz alerted me to A Las Cinco de la Girlada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyVrmBOURs

Thanks Mary!

_______________________________________________
Phil Seyer professionalsguild at gmail.com
Wed Oct 21 21:43:42 EDT 2009

. . .

When I called this to the attention of the organizer of the milonga
some time later, she explained to me that it was a vals. I had to
explain to her that it was definitely not a vals because it was much
too slow for that.

. . .

Has anyone else heard a *slow* tango sounding tune with 3 very slow
beats per measure? How did you dance to it?  What are your thoughts?

Phil Seyer

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 26 13:10:37 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:10:37 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Codes III
Message-ID: <SNT115-W53B0BFEAC3E95F8A57B95B97BA0@phx.gbl>



Navigation
 
It is agreed that everyone will adjust his figures to the available space.
The same as nobody would drive over 70 miles/h on a narrow country side road.
 
The authorized speed is variable but under no circumstance it should be faster than the music itself. Everyone should be master of his own speed; this means that you should be able to slow down or even stop if necessary, independently of the stage of the complex figure you might have been executing.
 
It is not advisable to stop for long periods in the middle of the floor, when you have green light and there are many couples behind you waiting.
 
Remember that tango is a progressive dance, therefore try to avoid stationary positions not justified by the music, which could lead you and others into a condition of somnolence.
 
In case of distress, loss of orientation or a discussion that causes the couple to stop dancing, it is strongly advisable to move out of the line in order not to disturb the circulation.
 
On the other hand it is bad manners to object to the pause of a couple when such a pause is justified by the music. This behavior would be equivalent to press the horn because a car in front of you stopped at the red light.
 
Saludos, Sergio
 
PS. I do not you, but I find all this humorous as well as precise. :))
 
 
 
 
  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009

From sl at stevelittler.com  Mon Oct 26 13:41:04 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:41:04 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Google translator
In-Reply-To: <memo.20091026163730.5280A@john.walton4@btinternet.com.btinternet.com>
References: <memo.20091026163730.5280A@john.walton4@btinternet.com.btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4AE5DF30.8090706@stevelittler.com>

Well, I did a Google translation, then did a screen capture with Snag-It
software, then saved as a PDF here for what it is worth. You'll probably
want to enlarge the print to 200% for viewing.

http://www.stevelittler.com/Codes_English_Translation.pdf

El Stevito de Gainesville

John H. Walton wrote:
> I suspect the problem was that the text copied into Google was in a
> different character code-set to that expected by Google - i.e. the page
> ended up with mixed and confusing code-sets (probably a combination of
> single and multiple-bytes codes). Google is usually one of the best
> translators around, and translators in general have improved
> significantly over the last few years.  
>
> PS: If you want to see something really impressive, watch a demo of
> Google Wave performing real-time translations! i.e. you can key text into
> a document, and another user of your "wave" can see the translation
> character-by character as you type. As you complete a phrase the
> translation changes as it better understands the context and grammar.   
>
> Best Regards, John
> http://www.danceweb.co.uk
>
>   


From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 26 17:50:31 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:50:31 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re:  No place left to dance
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS32E19D7BF500FD0032454AEBA0@phx.gbl>


>We have seven milongas to try, each with a somewhat different focus.
>All of them are oriented to social dancing, i.e. non-show tango


The point being that "alternative music" implies nuevo moves, that terrifies 
some traditionalist people and thus causes much debate.

However, if the term "alternative milonga" keeps the traditionalists away, 
it gives more room for nuevo.

Sort of a win-win situation then.

:-)

 


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 19:36:26 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:36:26 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
In-Reply-To: <1256427298.13582.1341756293@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1256427298.13582.1341756293@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370910261636h77b5125fj966e860919d5dddd@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Chris, UK <tl2 at chrisjj.com> wrote:

> > As the organizer for the Denver & San Diego festivals, I can reassure
> > you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: "By
> > Dancers; for Dancers".
>
> Please, Tom, explain how your:
>
>  http://tango.org/2010sdfest
>  The 4th Annual San Diego Tango Festival will be a Southern California
>  treat for all tango dancers who love the social tango popular in the
>  milongas of Buenos Aires: close, subtle & romantic.
>
> squares with your:
>
>  Sat, 3:00 - 07:00, DJ TBA, "Alternative Music Milonga" $15
>
> and the likes of:
>
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI
>
> Or if the nuevo dancing at your festivals is any /less/ antithetic to
> BA-style social tango, please post a video to illustrate.
>

     You're right, Chris, it doesn't square; however, I for one am extremely
grateful that Tom puts on those late afternoon alternative milongas--it
gives some of us the opportunity to take a nice nap up in the hotel room
while the cargo-pants crowd gets all that alternative music and those wild
fantasia moves out of their systems instead of bugging the night dj to play
that nonsense later when we're dancing serious social tango to real tango
music in a milonga that actually does justice to Tom's description that you
quoted above.

Huck

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 19:42:34 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Codes II
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W18D6BAE2607F99AA4CCE7997BA0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W18D6BAE2607F99AA4CCE7997BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370910261642v5bdb2065i80f267fc27190c86@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Sergio Vandekier <
sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Passing on the right side, blind point for the leader, is absolutely
> forbidden, as such action can easily end up with an accident including the
> tables as well.
>
     Thanks, Sergio.  I'd like to tattoo that on the foreheads of some
people who are habitual offenders so they'd be reminded everytime they
looked in the mirror.

Huck

From rontango at rocketmail.com  Tue Oct 27 09:38:12 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
Message-ID: <669135.16525.qm@web111815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re:  No place left to dance
> 
> 
> The point being that "alternative music" implies nuevo moves, that terrifies 
> some traditionalist people and thus causes much debate.
> 
> However, if the term "alternative milonga" keeps the traditionalists away, 
> it gives more room for nuevo.
> 
> Sort of a win-win situation then.

If nuevoists do not pass on the 'traditional' milonga, then there is  a 'heads I win, tails you lose' situation for them. 

If nuevoists call their milongas 'alternative', do traditionalists need to call their milongas 'traditional', or is just plain 'milonga' OK? Perhaps out of necessity they need to say 'traditional Buenos Aires style milonga with all classic tango music'. This will scare away people who dislike dancing tango in a close embrace and who dislike classic tango music for dancing tango.

And do they need to call their classes 'Argentine tango' to differentiate if from 'tango for export'? (You know, the tango danced at milongas outside Argentina)

Odd thing is, in Buenos Aires there are about 100 (just plain) 'milongas' per week where all classic tango music is played and people dance 'tango' (maybe 'tango de salon' to differentiate it from 'tango fantasia').  Perhaps it is too much to expect the rest of the tango world to follow Argentine standards. 

What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean "I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone" because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace.

I believe we can have separate events and if we agree to label them without ambiguity, we can all respect the codes of the events we attend and tango milonguero and nuevo can both live in peace and respect each other, sort of a 'tango detente'. They will live in separate niches because they are different species of tango. 

How about:

Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'.

Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music. The classes they teach are 'Nuevo Tango'. 

If we had this truth in advertising, there should be a lot fewer conflicts.

Ron


      


From macfroggy at aol.com  Tue Oct 27 09:51:46 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:51:46 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
In-Reply-To: <669135.16525.qm@web111815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <669135.16525.qm@web111815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CC2523C20EB6CC-CAC-2977@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com>

It's all about the marketing.

There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in "Tango Nuevo Milonguero" !!!

Now what in the heck is that?
I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on the "cutting edge" and/or perhaps to dance both traditional and nuevo. 
I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody.

Was it that long ago when there was only "tango?"

cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com



From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 27 10:13:31 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
Message-ID: <858056.25694.qm@web62004.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

The 'Walmartization' of Tango....
MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today.
How far from the bohemian ?atmosphere of local dancing ?bars these events have become. ?Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events.
Similar consumerism driven actions have also?existed?among teachers. ?Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT.
How sad all this seems to be...




"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."


      

From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Oct 27 10:21:18 2009
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:21:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
References: <858056.25694.qm@web62004.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56869616E1924982A8B8456A3D9118DB@laptop4018c244>

Amaury is right.  It is sad.

Tango is very simple.  It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace 
of two people.  But many people never look long enough into these simple 
things to see the beauty that they offer.  They don't see that no other 
invention is needed.

Best,

Nina


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amaury de Siqueira" <amaurycdsf at yahoo.com>
To: <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops


The 'Walmartization' of Tango....
MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world 
are a common sight today.
How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have 
become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with 
teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events.
Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some 
have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim 
invention of a complete new form of true AT.
How sad all this seems to be...




"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of 
all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a 
good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."



_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 12:37:44 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:37:44 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
In-Reply-To: <669135.16525.qm@web111815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <669135.16525.qm@web111815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0910270937k1752fbbel38dc366fd63192b6@mail.gmail.com>

> Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music.

Now I want to know the definitions of "modern tango", "nuevo tango",
"neotango" and how they differ from each other.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 27 12:49:22 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:49:22 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Cafes de Buenos Aires - The day of the cafes -
Message-ID: <SNT115-W647E44DBE35CCC5937566B97B90@phx.gbl>


Today is the day of "The Cafe de Buenos Aires".
 
"The Cafe" is an institution and a tradition in the life of Buenos Aires, a place where you can go to have a cup of coffe, meet a friend, read, and see intellectuals, politicians and artists.
 
Going into the Tortoni to have a cup of coffee, to meet someone there, to attend any of the innumerable cultural functions offered there, is getting into the very kernel of tradition. Tradition is not the past. Tradition, transmission, comes from tradere, to give. Tradition is the offering of the best of the past to the men of the present and the future. It is not only in the walls of the Tortoni -which in themselves are worthy of a museum- but mainly in the spiritual climate that its management has wisely created, that the best of our porte?o past can be found. And one day we shall find the best of the present there, once it has aged enough. The tourist who arrives in Buenos Aires has the entire city in the Tortoni: the past, in its walls; the present, sitting at its tables; the future, in the enthusiasm of the people who work there for the sake of culture.
Jos? Gobello, 1998.
 
 
Clarin Newspaper has videos and pictures:
 
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2009/10/27/um/m-02027450.htm
 
Other pictures:
 
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=cafes+de+buenos+aires&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=aSHnSszvBMX3lAer28iSAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CCMQsAQwBA
 
Gran Cafe Tortoni is the oldest it was built in 1857
 
http://www.cafetortoni.com.ar/   it has text in spanish, French and English.
 
Best regards, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 27 12:44:48 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
In-Reply-To: <56869616E1924982A8B8456A3D9118DB@laptop4018c244>
Message-ID: <910557.89837.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Thank you Nina. ?I hope one day come to visit you in your community simply to dance and enjoy a few hours of good company!
Abrazos,Amaury

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net> wrote:

From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
To: Tango-L at mit.edu
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 7:21 AM

Amaury is right.? It is sad.

Tango is very simple.? It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace 
of two people.? But many people never look long enough into these simple 
things to see the beauty that they offer.? They don't see that no other 
invention is needed.

Best,

Nina


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amaury de Siqueira" <amaurycdsf at yahoo.com>
To: <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops


The 'Walmartization' of Tango....
MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world 
are a common sight today.
How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have 
become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with 
teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events.
Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some 
have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim 
invention of a complete new form of true AT.
How sad all this seems to be...




"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of 
all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a 
good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."



_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      

From macfroggy at aol.com  Tue Oct 27 13:23:48 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:23:48 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Cafes de Buenos Aires - The day of the cafes -
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W647E44DBE35CCC5937566B97B90@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W647E44DBE35CCC5937566B97B90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CC254160E2ECCD-5FB4-6ED8@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com>


 I LOVE  the Tortoni--Ruben and I had our first coffee there in 2005. We always recommend it to people for a less expensive alternative to the $100usd tango shows.
But the probability of hob-nobbing with "intellectuals, politicians and artists" is about nil.
The Tortoni--with reason--is mobbed by tourists, who usually have to queue at the door just to get in.
Yes it is "tradition," and tradition well maintained, and for that reason is touristic--as is Caminito and San Telmo.
But still very much worth while.

cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
To: Tango-L List <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 2:49 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Cafes de Buenos Aires - The day of the cafes -











Today is the day of "The Cafe de Buenos Aires".
 
"The Cafe" is an institution and a tradition in the life of Buenos Aires, a 
place where you can go to have a cup of coffe, meet a friend, read, and see 
intellectuals, politicians and artists.
 
Going into the Tortoni to have a cup of coffee, to meet someone there, to attend 
any of the innumerable cultural functions offered there, is getting into the 
very kernel of tradition. Tradition is not the past. Tradition, transmission, 
comes from tradere, to give. Tradition is the offering of the best of the past 
to the men of the present and the future. It is not only in the walls of the 
Tortoni -which in themselves are worthy of a museum- but mainly in the spiritual 
climate that its management has wisely created, that the best of our porte?o 
past can be found. And one day we shall find the best of the present there, once 
it has aged enough. The tourist who arrives in Buenos Aires has the entire city 
in the Tortoni: the past, in its walls; the present, sitting at its tables; the 
future, in the enthusiasm of the people who work there for the sake of culture.
Jos? Gobello, 1998.
 
 
Clarin Newspaper has videos and pictures:
 
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2009/10/27/um/m-02027450.htm
 
Other pictures:
 
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=cafes+de+buenos+aires&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=aSHnSszvBMX3lAer28iSAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CCMQsAQwBA
 
Gran Cafe Tortoni is the oldest it was built in 1857
 
http://www.cafetortoni.com.ar/   it has text in spanish, French and English.
 
Best regards, Sergio                      
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



 


From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Tue Oct 27 13:41:57 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0910270937k1752fbbel38dc366fd63192b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <726413.28311.qm@web46004.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

let ?s see... definitions...

modern tango, Boedo, 1929. Why modern ? Because De Caro made an arrangement where his hornet violin, play a counterpoint to the bandoneon of Laurentz ..

nuevo tango , El negro Shicoba, 1867, made in Uruguay .the character described , who can be loose translated as the balck broom , was part of the dancing of candombe or candomble, the afroamerican dance . It has a different pattern of music, so later it was considered the first tango widely known , it is possible that many other music of those years could being played as candombe and was an evolution to tango . Sebastian Piana made an excellent compilation of songs and shoutings of street vendors on the street of Buenos Aires from 1810 onwards , writing it down into musical arrangementes. Although they are no tangos as we considered it now, two centuries later , definitely , El negro Shicoba, have a different music, nuevo.


neotango:maybe on 1897, when Rosendo Mendizabal composed el Entrerriano, using a piano, who was something completely different from the musical instruments used before.


I can keep going backwards to the big bang and the theory the explosion sounded in a 2 x 4 rhytm beating :)

alberto

--- El mar 27-oct-09, Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com> escribi?:

> De: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
> Para: "RonTango" <rontango at rocketmail.com>
> Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
> Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 2:37 pm
> > Nuevo dancers have 'alternative
> milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo
> tango, neotango, and non-tango music.
> 
> Now I want to know the definitions of "modern tango",
> "nuevo tango",
> "neotango" and how they differ from each other.
> 
> Sergey
> May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
> )
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


      Yahoo! Cocina

Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.


http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 27 13:51:49 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
Message-ID: <213593.32103.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango <rontango at rocketmail.com> wrote:

What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean "I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone" because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace.

~~~

Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not known.  I really don't.  Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if one is trying to keep people away.  

I've never had a problem like this.  Every once in a while (once a year, perhaps), I'll have to approach someone or their teacher about a navigation issue, but that's it.  Local teachers talk about the line of dance, but we don't typically need to do special classes or workshops on navigation.  I don't feel a need to separate out people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas.

Milongas using Golden Age music are simply "milongas".  Milongas using alternative music are "alternative milongas".  

Perhaps the approach should not be that it is the "other people" that is the problem.  Perhaps the approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own.  I mean, would you dress in torn jeans and a t-shirt when you go into a BMW showroom?

Trini de Pittsburgh





 





      

From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Tue Oct 27 14:06:42 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango nuevo milonguero & Gavito mnemonics
In-Reply-To: <8CC2523C20EB6CC-CAC-2977@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <458286.47911.qm@web46012.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I once listened to a mnemonic that Gavito sang while teaching milonga steps, more or less it was 

" si milonga quieres bailar , nunca tienes que parar ". If milonga you want to dance, you should never have to stop"

and there was another mnemonic for tango , also Gavito

"caminare para arriba los pasos en el abrazo, cada vez " . I will walk upwards the steps into the embrace, each time

 I could open a school of tango nuevo milonguero with this, saying it is the secret mantra for tango :) But I wont :)

what Gavito really try to do was to light our burden , on the tango mnemonic he said " why do you walk as if you were in a mechanical ladder of a subway always downwards ?? think upwards. And walk each step into the embrace, one at a time, my boys , one at a time, why such a hurry.... you are not going to any place, you are just in the place, already arrived, give yourselves a break ...



alberto


--- El mar 27-oct-09, macfroggy at aol.com <macfroggy at aol.com> escribi?:

> De: macfroggy at aol.com <macfroggy at aol.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
> Para: tango-l at mit.edu
> Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 11:51 am
> It's all about the marketing.
> 
> There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in
> "Tango Nuevo Milonguero" !!!
> 
> Now what in the heck is that?
> I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on
> the "cutting edge" and/or perhaps to dance both traditional
> and nuevo. 
> I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody.
> 
> Was it that long ago when there was only "tango?"
> 
> cherie
> http://tangocherie.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


      Yahoo! Cocina

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http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:59:04 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:59:04 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L]  Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS5957F18F1A44D254BB023AEB90@phx.gbl>

>What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their 
>milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and 
>generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?

It would be good as part of educating what traditionalists and nuevoists 
(sic?) want is to advertise what you are seeking to attain.  Just saying it 
is "Tango milonguero" or "classical tango music" will not on its own create 
the sort of atmosphere you want.  However, "alternative milongas" says very 
clearly to everyone what is allowed I think.

>Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic 
>tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'.
I see a problem with this. A majority of tangoists are not Argentine, do not 
tango in Argentina on a regular basis and some never go.  They are 
influenced on what happens around their local city.  90% of the tango 
workshops I have gone to in Australia have taught nuevo elements.  I had a 
quick look at the Berlin and Montreal tango festivals and their programs had 
a lot of nuevo.  Even Denver had a "Nuevo milonguero classics(?!!!)" 
workshop. So the majority of the worlds tango dancers believe that nuevo 
moves are OK at *any* milonga is what I am proposing.

Previously, in all seriousness I said milonga hosts/organisers/clubs should 
set-up a sandwich board outside the door on what "codes" are to be respected 
at their milongas.  Alternative ways to educate (promotion/"truth in 
advertising"/image) the vast majority of tango dancers outside Argentina and 
who never read this list (actually how many subscribe to this list are 
there: 1000?) can be thought of, like reminders in newsletters, sheets of 
paper on the tables etc.  It will take time, but eventually there will be an 
understanding of what is expected in each tango milonga outside BsAs.

People will then vote with their feet on whether they want to go to certain 
milongas that promotes "older style tango" keeping feet on the floor etc. 
Some milongas will die as people decide the music and image does not agree 
them, but the as long as the remaining people are having fun, that is OK.

Fair enough?
 


From c.roques at mchsi.com  Tue Oct 27 18:46:04 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:46:04 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
Message-ID: <102720092246.224.4AE7782C000D4E85000000E0223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Vince wrote:

<<<<Just saying it is "Tango milonguero" or "classical tango music" will not on its own create the sort of atmosphere you want.  However, "alternative milongas" says very clearly to everyone what is allowed I think.>>>

Why not? This sjust eems to reflect your personal prejudices and  preferences.  Saying that it is "classic tango," or "milonguero tango" is no less specific than calling it "alternative." It is clear what they all mean. Traditional dancers don't attend the alternative milongas because they know what to expect.  Nuevo dancers should do the same at traditional milongas and respect that their dancing is not appropriate and not expect to hear the same kind of music.

<<< A majority of tangoists are not Argentine, do not tango in Argentina on a regular basis and some never go.  They are 
influenced on what happens around their local city.  90% of the tango workshops I have gone to in Australia have taught nuevo elements. >>>

This has nothing to do with nuevo or traditional styles or the country in which they are danced.  The term originated long before nuevo came along to distinguish the original tango danced in Argentina from American ballroom tango.  Milonguero, tango de salon, milonguero, nuevo, etc. are all Argentine tango.  Although eventually nuevo and even traditional tango could change in character from what is danced in Argentina if they continue to develop in isolation, just as Finnish tango did.

Cheers,
Charles


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 00:05:22 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 04:05:22 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Milonga Codes IV
Message-ID: <SNT115-W619AA662C1BF3E5F58FE8F97B80@phx.gbl>


Page 31 - Frederic Megret - Mc Gill University -
 
 Los  c?digos  milongueros  forman parte de la cultura tanguera. Y  si contin?a el proceso de licuaci?n de las  convenciones  que dan encanto y marco al baile, estaremos  mutilando un legado del cual muchos argentinos estamos  orgullosos .
 
(The Milonga Codes are part of the Tango Culture. Should the process of dilution of the conventions that frame and give charm to the dance continue,
we will be mutilating a legacy of which many Argentines are proud of). 
 
 
The Milonga Codes have a function of identification and filtration or screening between the inside and the outside of the tango scene.
 
They are markers for those that know them, and mysterious for those from the outside world (that would have a lot to do before it could find any logic).
 
It comes to mind the scene in the movie "Eyes wide shut" in which Tom Cruise enters a mansion where a clandestine orgy is taking place, he is unaware that he provided the wrong password at the entrance and that this has marked him from the beginning.
 
The transgressor ignores that he was identified as an intruder from the start.
 
Certain rules are never explained, they become true codes in the sense that only a very attentive observation of customs in force at the milongas can allow elucidation.
 
Milonga codes are then at the same time elements of clarity for the inside and
of opacity for the outside, they create the certitude of the "otherness" of tango and make the tango community something totally separated and different from the rest of society.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 

 
    
Le  Code  des  milongas  e   son  ? ude  posen   ?galemen   la  ques ion  des  rappor s  du  collec if  au 
par iculier  e   inversemen .  En  r?ali ?,  on  peu   souligner  une  cer aine  priori ?  on ologique  e  
a iologique du g?n?ral sur le par iculier, du collec if sur le couple, e  du couple sur l?individu. Le 
social pr?c?de le couple, au sens o? le  ango n?a jamais e is ? e  ne pourrai  e is er au remen  que 
socialemen ,  de  la  m?me  mani?re  que  le  couple  domine  l?individuel,  au  sens  o?  il  es   presque 
absurde d?imaginer un  ango dans? seul. En  ermes norma ifs, l?on peu  faire  ou  ce que l?on veu   		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7.
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From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 28 00:13:42 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:13:42 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Detente
In-Reply-To: <213593.32103.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <213593.32103.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001ca5785$09fcf4c0$1df6de40$@net>

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango <rontango at rocketmail.com> wrote:
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their
milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and
generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?... We don't
enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want
to dance in peace.
~~~
Trini wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the
milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not
known.  I really don't.  Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if
one is trying to keep people away...  
I've never had a problem like this...I don't feel a need to separate out
people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas...Perhaps the
approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her
image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own...
<<<

As much as I might agree with Trini, clearly Ron perceives a problem, a
conflict in need of resolution.  So if we take his question at face value:
"What do traditionalists need to do?..." - we might refer to strategies used
in the past at milongas in Buenos Aires to control attendees' behavior.

I once saw a sign posted at the El Arranque afternoon milonga, mentioning a
dress code requiring slacks for men.  Some Buenos Aires milongas back in the
last century would have signs saying (roughly translated) "Cortes and
Quebradas prohibited" (cortes and quebradas were tango moves that were
considered scandalous by some at the time, and unfit for nice girls to have
to endure at a dance).  

So one approach might be to pick some "nuevo" moves or inconsiderate
behaviors that from the organizer's perspective cause problems to other
dancers, and prohibit them with a sign near the door, where the money will
be taken.  To avoid misunderstanding, perhaps include in the sign some
photos showing the prohibited moves and behaviors.  If necessary, offenders
could simply be offered a refund of the entrada and requested to leave - not
fun, I know, but probably only necessary once or twice before word gets
around a relatively small tango community.

I would think that a simple and obvious step like this would go a very long
way to directly solving the problem as it's defined here.  

On the other hand, milongas (and tango communities in general) are social
networks whose collective behavior can be very difficult to predict. Here's
a cautionary note concerning such direct action (and its unforeseen
consequences):

"You make what you defend against, and by 
Your own defense against it is it real 
And inescapable..."
- A Course in Miracles

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 08:10:00 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:10:00 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L]  "Truth" in tango advertising
In-Reply-To: <OF86D1E8AF.2F95625C-ONCA25765D.002BE599-CA25765D.002BF67E@ipaustralia.gov.au>
References: <OF86D1E8AF.2F95625C-ONCA25765D.002BE599-CA25765D.002BF67E@ipaustralia.gov.au>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS60872738345CA3C61C73AAEB80@phx.gbl>

Charles said:

>Saying that it is "classic tango,"

You changed it from "classical tango music" to "classical tango".  Hope that 
was because you realize the music alone wont get the sort of atmosphere you 
want.

>"milonguero tango" is no less specific

It will upset the tango salon dancers :-)  BTW, a 1990's coined term

>than calling it "alternative." It is clear what they all mean.

To you and me maybe, but to the vast majority of dancers who do not read 
Tango-L, no it means nothing.  A bit of explanation of what is expected 
without all the mythical reverence would go a long way in educating the 
masses.

>and not expect to hear the same kind of music.

Dancers who like to do neuvo moves don't really care what music they dance 
to.

>This has nothing to do with nuevo or traditional styles or the country in 
>which they are danced.

I have to respectfully disagree.  If the majority of dancers in a city are 
taught nuevo elements, they may have an expectation that it is OK to dance 
such elements at any milonga.  What teacher will tell their students, sure 
you can learn all these cool moves, but you wont be welcome at any regular 
milonga that you care to attend in this city.  I bet none. Not the city I 
initially learnt tango in.


Regards


 


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 09:21:01 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:21:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS60872738345CA3C61C73AAEB80@phx.gbl>
References: <OF86D1E8AF.2F95625C-ONCA25765D.002BE599-CA25765D.002BF67E@ipaustralia.gov.au>
	<SNT124-DS60872738345CA3C61C73AAEB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <754536.93323.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
> 
> Charles (correctly, IMHO) said:

> >than calling it "alternative." It is clear what they all mean.> >

Vince replied:

> To you and me maybe, but to the vast majority of dancers who 
>do not read Tango-L, no it means nothing.? >> 

Vince, when every 'traditionalist' reads your posts,?I'm sure they're 
thanking their lucky stars that they don't live in a city which is so 
ignorant of what 'Tango' really is. I know I am.

Jack


      


From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 10:06:05 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 01:06:05 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS103300DE3F120682F37ABBAEB80@phx.gbl>

Well Jack,

I don't live in that city anymore.

What city do you dance in?  I would like to google/youtube it to see what 
styles of tango are danced at the milongas you attend and then report back.

But we digress: why not in advertise what you will accept at  your milonga 
in clear and precise terms?    Can we agree on that?

Cheers
 


From white_angel1 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 10:26:00 2009
From: white_angel1 at hotmail.com (White Angel)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:26:00 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Unsubscribe please
Message-ID: <BAY136-W21281973428D29E20656F9A7B80@phx.gbl>




=========================================================== 
  ()_()    This sad little bear has a circumflex nose 
  /o o\    And instead of two eyes he has lower case o's
 _\'^ /_   He has solidus legs with underscore paws 
 (_. ._)   His arms are so short they don't even have claws
  / ^ \    Would you brush away his apostrophe tears? 
 /_/ \_\   Could you love a Teddy with parenthesis ears? 
 
White Angel
=========================================================== 


 		 	   		  
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 12:54:52 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS103300DE3F120682F37ABBAEB80@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT124-DS103300DE3F120682F37ABBAEB80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <339331.95120.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
> 
> What city do you dance in?? I would like to google/youtube it to see what 
> styles of tango are danced at the milongas you attend and then report back.
>?

?Vince,

I live in an Asian city so I'm not far from you. Couldn't find an actual milonga 
on YouTube but this is a group of local teachers so it'll give you some idea. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01fr8UN0NQ

It's a demonstration so maybe a little more 'showy' than how regular people 
dance in the milongas. It's not milonguero?but I'd still call it mostly 'traditional'.

Jack


      


From rontango at rocketmail.com  Wed Oct 28 13:42:10 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
In-Reply-To: <339331.95120.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT124-DS103300DE3F120682F37ABBAEB80@phx.gbl>
	<339331.95120.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <821318.50765.qm@web111811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>

> > From: Vince Bagusauskas 
> > 
> > What city do you dance in?  I would like to google/youtube it to see what 
> > styles of tango are danced at the milongas you attend and then report back.
> > 

> 
> I live in an Asian city so I'm not far from you. Couldn't find an actual milonga 
> 
> on YouTube but this is a group of local teachers so it'll give you some idea. 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01fr8UN0NQ
> 
> It's a demonstration so maybe a little more 'showy' than how regular people 
> dance in the milongas. It's not milonguero but I'd still call it mostly 
> 'traditional'.
> 

Yes, it's a little bit showy (the boleos were a little too large), but it was a demo. If this was the extent of which we had to deal with in US milongas, I don't think we'd be fighting so much for our space and talking about milonga separation or milonga rules. Everyone in the video was respecting the line of dance.

Ron


      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 16:10:07 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:10:07 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing in Seoul
Message-ID: <SNT115-W28B9F2CDDE560F4B7A5EC297B80@phx.gbl>



Jack Dylan says :  "I live in an Asian city so I'm not far from you. Couldn't find an actual milonga>> on YouTube but this is a group of local teachers so it'll give you some idea.>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01fr8UN0NQ"
 
 
I do not see any problems with form of dancing. They are elegant, follow the line of dance, use embellishments allowed by the available space without disturbing anyone. (Boleos, Amagues, hooks, dibujos, sacadas,...)dance to a beautiful tango played by Carlos Di Sarli.
 
We have said many times that the dance must be adapted to the available space, they have plenty of room for doing what they do. No problem showy or not showy.  Nobody has to dance as if they had no room when there is plenty of room available.
 
Great!
 
Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 16:34:25 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:34:25 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS15D6B50BF06BDC835807A2AEB80@phx.gbl>


Ron said:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01fr8UN0NQ
>
> It's a demonstration so maybe a little more 'showy' than how regular 
> people
> dance in the milongas. It's not milonguero but I'd still call it mostly
> 'traditional'.
>

>Yes, it's a little bit showy (the boleos were a little too large), but it 
>was a demo. If this was the extent of which we had to deal with in US 
>milongas, I don't think we'd be fighting so much for our space and talking 
>about milonga separation or milonga rules. Everyone in the video was 
>respecting the line of dance.


Agree with Ron (and Jack and Sergio).  There are a few nuevo moves in the 
dance that would not have passed as what is allowed in salon style at the 
recent world tango championships (eg leg above the knee).   Would they have 
been allowable at a milonga that bills itself as "close embrace"?

A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI
Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero 
style.


A Seoul milonga that was identified as "alternative" with what appears to be 
respectful dancers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614

No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful.  And if not, the host 
can do something about it I guess.

Have a good day.
 


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 28 17:12:18 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:12:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango tradicional
Message-ID: <SNT115-W55B892253166286414D88197B80@phx.gbl>


Vince shows the following:
 
"A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI
 
"Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero style.  
A Seoul milonga that was identified as "alternative" with what appears to be respectful dancers."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614 
 
"No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful. And if not, the host can do something about it I guess."
 
My answer: 
 
It is of great benefit to have videos so that finally we can know what we are talking about.
 
Vince these people are dancing "Traditional Tango" using some typical embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, etc.  
***They are not dancing Tango Nuevo.***
 
As to the "Alternative" milonga...the only alternative thing is the music, the dancing is traditional tango as well.
 
Last time when you picked your marbles and left, you could have learned the difference between "Tango Nuevo", "Traditional Tango" and "Tango Milonguero"
which obviously you do not know. You think that a high boleo is Nuevo tango and it is not.  I am not planning to get into any argument with you.
 
Respectfully, Sergio 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
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From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 18:33:39 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:33:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is more than moving on the dance floor....
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W55B892253166286414D88197B80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <188420.10474.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

In a frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango (read the latest tedious postings about tango 'this' and tango 'that' )...musicians and?composers?are often forgotten....
If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible....
Honestly the talent shown in the?YouTube?video below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown...
Just my 2 cents.
Amaury



--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango tradicional
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 2:12 PM


Vince shows the following:
 
"A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI
 
"Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero style.? 
A Seoul milonga that was identified as "alternative" with what appears to be respectful dancers."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614 
 
"No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful. And if not, the host can do something about it I guess."
 
My answer: 
 
It is of great benefit to have videos so that finally we can know what we are talking about.
 
Vince these people are dancing "Traditional Tango" using some typical embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, etc.? 
***They are not dancing Tango Nuevo.***
 
As to the "Alternative" milonga...the only alternative thing is the music, the dancing is traditional tango as well.
 
Last time when you picked your marbles and left, you could have learned the difference between "Tango Nuevo", "Traditional Tango" and "Tango Milonguero"
which obviously you do not know. You think that a high boleo is Nuevo tango and it is not.? I am not planning to get into any argument with you.
 
Respectfully, Sergio ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? 
_________________________________________________________________
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From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 18:34:45 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is more than moving on the dance floor....
Message-ID: <697733.86654.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tango is more than moving on the dance floor....
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 3:33 PM

In a frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango (read the latest tedious postings about tango 'this' and tango 'that' )...musicians and?composers?are often forgotten....
If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible....
Honestly the talent shown in the?YouTube?video below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUiH_HpWYSc
Just my 2 cents.
Amaury



--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango
 tradicional
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 2:12 PM


Vince shows the following:
 
"A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI
 
"Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero style.? 
A Seoul milonga that was identified as "alternative" with what appears to be respectful dancers."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614 
 
"No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful. And if not, the host can do something about it I guess."
 
My answer: 
 
It
 is of great benefit to have videos so that finally we can know what we are talking about.
 
Vince these people are dancing "Traditional Tango" using some typical embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, etc.? 
***They are not dancing Tango Nuevo.***
 
As to the "Alternative" milonga...the only alternative thing is the music, the dancing is traditional tango as well.
 
Last time when you picked your marbles and left, you could have learned the difference between "Tango Nuevo", "Traditional Tango" and "Tango Milonguero"
which obviously you do not know. You think that a high boleo is Nuevo tango and it is not.? I am not planning to get into any argument with you.
 
Respectfully, Sergio ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? 
_________________________________________________________________
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 PC for you. Learn more.
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From tango22 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 19:01:29 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:01:29 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance
Message-ID: <1CEE6611-82F2-41BE-84E8-41516FA91E5D@gmail.com>

Trini wrote.....
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their  
milongas, one adheres to a line of dance.....I've never had a problem  
like this.

Reminds me of an hilarious experience at a crowded milonga in the  
centre of Paris, where one imagines the quality of dance might be  
good, sensual; all things French. Perhaps it was called "The Bull  
Ring" or something similar - that should have tipped me off.   We were  
startled by a young couple, clearly demonstrating their exceptional  
prowess, dancing directly towards us in the clockwise direction.  When  
I politely pointed him in the right direction with my left hand,  
(perhaps he was directionally impaired) whilst making a smart  
avoidance move, he glared at me with the "don't you know who I am?"  
look.  I swear I heard someone shout Ole!! when I received a smart  
gancho in the behind.   It did not improve.  We left soon after, a  
little wiser and sadder; visions of Tango in Paris in tatters.
Keep smiling,
John



From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 20:52:18 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance
In-Reply-To: <1CEE6611-82F2-41BE-84E8-41516FA91E5D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <371969.41156.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

We all know that obedience to the line of dance is simply a matter of?training...period.
As I visit different communities and befriend hospitable?instructors I?have found an interesting correlation...?communities?where instructors for financial (or other valid reason) are?pressured?to focus on step-learning rather than fundamentals have a more?difficult?time to maintain a civil and hazard-free line of dance. ?The opposite also seems to hold true....
A few months ago a very well?known?female instructor visited our community in one of her?exercises?she asked dancers to wonder?aimlessly?on the dance floor....
Her jaw drooped when she?noticed?that after a few bars the students naturally?gravitated?to the outside line of the dance floor?maintaining?a fairly even space?distance?among each other. ?The event repeated every time she asked th dancers to break the 'code'.
Its simply a?matter?of training.. so if we are going to blame someone for a chaotic line of dance.. lets not blame the students but the so called 'instructors'.
Amaury
--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Tango22 <tango22 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tango22 <tango22 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 4:01 PM

Trini wrote.....
What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their? 
milongas, one adheres to a line of dance.....I've never had a problem? 
like this.

Reminds me of an hilarious experience at a crowded milonga in the? 
centre of Paris, where one imagines the quality of dance might be? 
good, sensual; all things French. Perhaps it was called "The Bull? 
Ring" or something similar - that should have tipped me off.???We were? 
startled by a young couple, clearly demonstrating their exceptional? 
prowess, dancing directly towards us in the clockwise direction.? When? 
I politely pointed him in the right direction with my left hand,? 
(perhaps he was directionally impaired) whilst making a smart? 
avoidance move, he glared at me with the "don't you know who I am?"? 
look.? I swear I heard someone shout Ole!! when I received a smart? 
gancho in the behind.???It did not improve.? We left soon after, a? 
little wiser and sadder; visions of Tango in Paris in tatters.
Keep smiling,
John


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From macromagix at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 12:56:03 2009
From: macromagix at gmail.com (tony parkes)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:56:03 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Codes II
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W18D6BAE2607F99AA4CCE7997BA0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W18D6BAE2607F99AA4CCE7997BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c63a5fe70910260956u764ea1f6i4ec3e92f7ea14cca@mail.gmail.com>

hola sergio

i felt empathy with all your points save the last. my experience here
in bs.as is that after the tanda has started, couples entering the
floor tend to force their way into the line of dance and from that i
felt the codigo was that couples already on the floor were obliged to
allow latecomers in. for example, dance on the spot rather than moving
forward and colliding with the newcomers. interesting


> In case you arrive late to the dancing floor, the priority is for the couples that are already dancing.
>
> Saludos, Sergio

From tangoresearch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 20:08:08 2009
From: tangoresearch at gmail.com (Tango Research)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:08:08 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango research project: Request for Spanish speaking
	participants
Message-ID: <7f23b1d50910271708h253f3c6h3b6f6743df9888cb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
I'm looking for Spanish speaking participants who could take part in
my online survey, which looks into the relationship between people's
cultural backgrounds and the values that they see in the tango. I now
have enough responses from English-speaking and Japanese-speaking
dancers, but so far I only have 9 responses from Argentines. I would
like to have at least 30 responses from each group....so...would you
be able to help me? I would also be grateful if you could ask your
Argentine friends and students to take part.

  The URL of the survey is

  http://tangoresearch.webs.com

Queridos amigos y milongueros,

?Podr?a hacer la encuesta? No le llevar? m?s de 10 minutos, porque
quiero su reacci?n inmediata, no una respuesta meditada.

El estudio (en espa?ol, ingl?s, y japon?s) se encuentra en:
http://tangoresearch.webs.com

Mi nombre es Dr. Etsuko Toyoda. Soy una profesora de una universidad
de australia. Ense?o la lengua y la cultura de Jap?n. Tambi?n me gusta
bailar tango argentino. Despu?s de mi viaje a Buenos Aires y otros
pa?ses, y mi experiencia de bailar con gente de diferentes pa?ses, me
interes? en saber la relaci?n entre cultura y el tango. He creado una
peque?a encuesta que se puede hacer en Internet. Ahora tengo bastantes
respuestas de las personas quien hablan Ingl?s y japoneses, pero
necesito m?s latinos. Le agradecer?a mucho si usted pudiera ayudarme.
Ser? muy feliz de compartir los resultados con usted, si lo desea.

Muchas gracias por su cooperaci?n.


From c.roques at mchsi.com  Thu Oct 29 09:25:16 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:25:16 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] codigos
Message-ID: <102920091325.2624.4AE997BC000E84C400000A40223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

tony wrote:

<<i felt empathy with all your points save the last. my experience here
in bs.as is that after the tanda has started, couples entering the
floor tend to force their way into the line of dance and from that i
felt the codigo was that couples already on the floor were obliged to
allow latecomers in. for example, dance on the spot rather than moving
forward and colliding with the newcomers. interesting>>

My experience is that it goes both ways, i.e. if someone is entering the floor and dancing couples see them, then they may slow down and let them enter, or not, depending on the traffic, but by the same token if the entering couple notices that the dancers are not aware of them then they should yield and carefully enter. It may mean waiting for a second or two but it is basically common courtesy and similar to entering a busy automobile lane.
cheers,
Charles 


From vytis at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 29 09:39:17 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:39:17 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango tradicional and.....
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS2C4BC5407BED926FA5FCFAEB70@phx.gbl>


 >I am not planning to get into any argument with you.

> Respectfully, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________

Thanks Sergio for the clarification in that and your off list email.  Seems 
that we have been talking at cross purposes, in no small part because there 
is no definitive work that I can find on the Web that explains what were the 
actual traditional figures danced in tango in the Golden Age.  Also the 
official rules from the World Tango Championships explain what is allowed in 
salon, that differs alarmingly from your list of traditional tango figures. 
No wonder I was confused!!

Your commentary and youtube clips and my observations tells me that there is 
no  problem over here with regards to nuevo dancers.  It seems to be a 
significant problem for you dancers in other countries.  If there are good 
nuevo dancers in Australia, they must have left for greener pastures 
overseas as I don't see any that fit your definition.

Thank you for the youtube clip of the famous nuevo dancer as listed on 
Wikipedia under Argentine Tango, who I gather has a style that no-one wants 
to see at a milonga not billed "alternative".  Maybe there is a market for 
"No Nuevo" stickers?

Thanks again.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well I am off reading this list for a time, as my partner and I are headed 
to the Land of the Long White Cloud for a tango holiday, sampling several 
milongas and practicas.

Vince 


From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar  Thu Oct 29 11:25:46 2009
From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] codigos
In-Reply-To: <102920091325.2624.4AE997BC000E84C400000A40223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <225560.42993.qm@web46012.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

the problem I see in this situation, and happens , is when there is a couple sitting a table close to the dancing floor.

It is very unusual ( I do this with my wife), that the couple carefully choses one corner of the dancing floor to make their entry, usually they simply jump in , with all the unconveniences this produce, when the tanda has already started,the first tango/milonga/valsecito has ended , and the second is already  in motion.

To place oneself at one corner of the dancing floor is a way to see , the opportunity to enter into "the car lane" as charles comparison remarks.

alberto


--- El jue 29-oct-09, c.roques at mchsi.com <c.roques at mchsi.com> escribi?:

> De: c.roques at mchsi.com <c.roques at mchsi.com>
> Asunto: [Tango-L] codigos
> Para: TANGO-L at mit.edu
> Fecha: jueves, 29 de octubre de 2009, 11:25 am
> tony wrote:
> 
> <<i felt empathy with all your points save the last.
> my experience here
> in bs.as is that after the tanda has started, couples
> entering the
> floor tend to force their way into the line of dance and
> from that i
> felt the codigo was that couples already on the floor were
> obliged to
> allow latecomers in. for example, dance on the spot rather
> than moving
> forward and colliding with the newcomers.
> interesting>>
> 
> My experience is that it goes both ways, i.e. if someone is
> entering the floor and dancing couples see them, then they
> may slow down and let them enter, or not, depending on the
> traffic, but by the same token if the entering couple
> notices that the dancers are not aware of them then they
> should yield and carefully enter. It may mean waiting for a
> second or two but it is basically common courtesy and
> similar to entering a busy automobile lane.
> cheers,
> Charles 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 29 12:23:57 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:23:57 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles clarification
Message-ID: <SNT115-W98DA19CAC8F8B9386F61D97B70@phx.gbl>



Vince asked me to send to the list my note sent to him by private mail.
 
Vince, In first place I wish to let you know I do not hold any grudge against you, or at least with good Tanguero spirit I do my best not to hold a grudge. 
 
Traditional tango is the most complete style, one could say that the elements used in the other styles are taken from traditional tango. 
 
Traditional tango has a close embrace and an open embrace. 
 
It has all the "firuletes" (embellishments), Boleos (low, mid, high), Amagues (low or high),Dibujos (lapiz, rulos), sacadas, ganchos, arrastres, paradas, you name it. 
 
Traditional tango may be used for social dancing or for stage. 
 
"Salon" is a term used to distinguish the social dance done in a home, a club, a dancing hall, etc, from the "stage" tango done in musicals and exhibition. 
 
So you can dance traditional tango socially in close or open embrace, or alternating the embrace as necessary, with few or with many embellishments.Or you can dance Traditional tango on stage or socially using all sort of embellishments if there is enough space.
 
 When you see boleos, amagues, barridas, dibujos,soltadas, etc, this does not mean that this is Nuevo Tango. 
 
It still is Traditional tango. Nuevo uses the same elements that are present in Traditional tango but uses a very open embrace, and certain elements continuously, (heel sacadas, hooks, soltadas, boleos, amagues, colgadas, volcadas, back boleos, etc. plus certain changes of direction, plus frequent use of non tango music, and a particular way of dressing. 
 
Milonguero uses certain steps and figures, also taken from traditional tango; but this time it takes figures to adapt the dance to crowded spaces. 
 
I hope that this helps to clarify this subject. I noticed that abroad some people think that any tango with embellishments is Nuevo . This is not so. 
 
Here you have some examples:  
 
 World championship Tangosocial Club (Traditional stage tango). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuJIu6HFrwI World championship Salon 
 
(Traditional social tango) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUzLo1OfF5k&feature=PlayList&p=E6BF6941EF04A9DD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=61  
 
Traditional tango http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZ9_ywdIhQ&feature=PlayList&p=E6BF6941EF04A9DD&index=63&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL 
 
Milonguero according to Casas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-7DfcTdzE&feature=PlayList&p=685D420E8E8F8462&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13 
 
Milonguero according to Susana Miller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeU0NedkEuA 
 
Nuevo Tango Chicho Frumboli 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8TKp4ech7Y
 
Best regards, Sergio 		 	   		  
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From keith at totango.net  Thu Oct 29 14:05:59 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ignacio Varchausky Audio interview
Message-ID: <60008.65.93.52.88.1256839559.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>

I invite you to make a cup of tea or coffee, sit back and listen to
Ignacio speak about his many projects including El Arranque and Escuela de
Tango and specifically the Tango Digital Archive Project and what lost
gems he is uncovering. It's in 3 parts.

>From his home in Buenos Aires, Ignacio says, "The world tango community
will SAVE tango over time."

But Ignacio is doing the heavy slogging. You have to know about this.

http://ToTANGO.net

From tango22 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 21:00:55 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:00:55 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Translation Codes II
Message-ID: <720CC3AE-C83E-4B3E-A1B3-37B70A0F6013@gmail.com>

Tony Parkes wrote.....
  my experience herein bs.as is that after the tanda has started,  
couples entering thefloor tend to force their way into the line of  
dance and from that i
felt the codigo was that couples already on the floor were obliged to  
allow latecomers in.

Perhaps there are some cultural differences here too. In Aus. it was  
(is) the custom to invite a lady to dance at the table and to escort  
her, from behind, to the floor.  This leads to couples walking to a  
spot on the floor without a lot of regard for the flow, especially  
disruptive in a crowded floor.  We suggest dancers enter the line of  
dance from the edge, lady's back to the tables (for protection).    
 From there, there are a number of ways to enter the freeway at the  
general speed and not disrupt the flow.  Perhaps it is like BsAs  
taxis, where the unwritten rule seems to be, if you have your nose in  
front, the space is yours, but don't hesitate.
John

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 21:18:57 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:18:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango ... beyond dancers
Message-ID: <788346.61119.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


In the frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango musicians and?composers?are often forgotten....
If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible....
Honestly the talent shown in the?YouTube?video?below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUiH_HpWYSc
Just my 2 cents.
Amaury


      

From michaelfigart at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 01:32:10 2009
From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] St Louis roommate
Message-ID: <944208.34859.qm@web39706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm looking for a roommate for St Louis Tango Festival. Please respond to michaelfigart at yahoo.com
Thanks, Michael

From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au  Fri Oct 30 20:08:17 2009
From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:08:17 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] codigos
Message-ID: <4AEB7FF1.8070307@optusnet.com.au>

c.roques at mchsi.com wrote:
> <snip>

>  if the entering couple notices that the dancers are not aware of them 
> then they should yield and carefully enter. It may mean waiting for a 
> second or two but it is basically common courtesy and similar to 
> entering a busy automobile lane.
> cheers,
> Charles   
This whole situation can be avoided by the male engaging in conversation 
with his partner, reversing bum-first into the line of dance with no 
heed to traffic,  standing and finishing the conversation at leisure, by 
which time he has ample space in front, and congestion behind - but hey, 
mission-accomplished.  :(