From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 12:32:46 2009 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:32:46 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Carlos di Sarli Message-ID: Carlos Di Sarli was born in 1903 in Bahia Blanca. His music is one of my favorites for dancing, it has a clear beat and melodies that are apparently simple but full of different shades that evoke different feelings . Carlos Di Sarli had influence from osvaldo Fresedo but eventually developed his unique style. Bahia Blanca http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M44Ju5vvuU Cosas Olvidadas sang by Roberto Rufino (one of his singers) . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2ZlJ1iNJFA&feature=related Tu Intimo Secreto sang by Jorge Duran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhMY-MTZaNE In this video you can see not only jorge Duran but some of Carlos Di Sarli other singers. Nada sang by Alberto Podesta http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9CYbcy4az8&feature=related Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From susan_munoz at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 5 13:36:17 2009 From: susan_munoz at sbcglobal.net (Susan Munoz) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:36:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music and I-Tunes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421251.38459.qm@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Earlier this summer, I visited?a dear tango friend and he showed me how to load my tango music into I-tunes.? This was a very time-consuming and?laborious process of entering all the information, song-by-song and it?actually took?a few?weeks in total.? Everything seemed to be working perfectly.??A few weeks passed and he and his significant other came to visit and he opened up my I-tunes library to see how I was doing.? He said, I don't know what you were smoking when you did this but these songs don't match the composer or the genre, etc.? I didn't think much about it?until I recently went to create some playlists.? What a mess.? CD's that I had?purchased at Z-Vals, or El Ateneo?were being scrambled, indicating certain songs were milongas when they were vals, or indicating they were Di Sarli when they were Biagi or worse still, indicating that a tango was Tom Waits.?This wasn't limited to CD's from Argentina.? I had purchased a Keb Mo CD for a particular song as an entry-level find-the-beat and it, too, was all over the place. Has anyone on this List?experienced any similar problems?? Is there one?library-software system that's more reliable?than another.? Is there a separate?music software system that I should/could purchase that would eliminate this? ?I would have thought it was simply operator error but there was no consistency, rather totally random.? I could sure use some help as to what to do as this is extremely frustrating.? Thanks, Susan _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From chicagomilonguero at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 09:59:24 2009 From: chicagomilonguero at yahoo.com (chicagomilonguero) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:59:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Changes by Immigration Authorities with respect to the granting of P & O Visas Message-ID: <862987.26464.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> A recent policy change by the US Citizenship and Immigration Service could create considerable challenges for tango instructors interested in touring the United States. As of October 7th, visa petitions may not be filed by a single employer on behalf of multiple arts organizations for artists coming to the U.S. for an itinerary of events, unless the petitioning employer is in the business of being an an agent. As a result, if an artist plans to travel to the U.S. for multiple engagements in one or more cities (unless one of the petitioning employers is legally an agent and obtains permission to file as the primary petitioner on the other arts organizations behalf), each venue must file a separate visa petition. I believe a number of tango instructors have had difficulties in obtaining their work visas under this new policies. A number of organizations that deal with the arts and dance are trying to challenge the change in this policy. It is also not clear what will suffice the "agent" definition. Ray Barbosa From C21DARI at aol.com Fri Nov 6 11:37:01 2009 From: C21DARI at aol.com (C21DARI@aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:37:01 EST Subject: [Tango-L] I'd like to unsuscribe Message-ID: I'd like to unsuscribe from this list Please let meknow what I have to do Thank you Dario Mendiguren From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 13:12:30 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:12:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music and I-Tunes In-Reply-To: <421251.38459.qm@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <589223.39778.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi Susan, A few months ago, I began using Itunes on my computer (a PC, not a Mac), so that I can put music on the Ipod I got for Christmas. My music had been imported earlier using Windows Media Player, which I then imported to Itunes. I haven't had the problem you described. Perhaps that might be an option for you, though it does eat up disk space. If that solution works, then perhaps you can just delete the WMA version to save disk space. Since most of my music come from personal disks, it's easy for me to change a song's properties through Windows Media. Itunes doesn't seem to store the music as simply as Windows Media, in folders that you can easily access and change. The problem I've had with my Ipod is that if I do a playlist that basically contains a whole CD but with different cortinas, the new cortinas won't play. Nor can I have the same cortina play multiple times on the same playlist. If someone can figure that one out for me, I'd appreciate it. Trini --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Susan Munoz wrote: > From: Susan Munoz > Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music and I-Tunes > To: "Tango-L List" > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 1:36 PM > Earlier this summer, I visited?a > dear tango friend and he showed me how to load my tango > music into I-tunes.? This was a very time-consuming > and?laborious process of entering all the information, > song-by-song and it?actually took?a few?weeks in total.? > Everything seemed to be working perfectly.??A few weeks > passed and he and his significant other came to visit and he > opened up my I-tunes library to see how I was doing.? He > said, I don't know what you were smoking when you did this > but these songs don't match the composer or the genre, > etc.? I didn't think much about it?until I recently went > to create some playlists.? What a mess.? CD's that I > had?purchased at Z-Vals, or El Ateneo?were being > scrambled, indicating certain songs were milongas when they > were vals, or indicating they were Di Sarli when they were > Biagi or worse still, indicating that a tango was Tom > Waits.?This wasn't limited to CD's from Argentina.? I had > purchased a Keb Mo > CD for a particular song as an entry-level find-the-beat > and it, too, was all over the place. > > Has anyone on this List?experienced any similar > problems?? Is there one?library-software system that's > more reliable?than another.? Is there a separate?music > software system that I should/could purchase that would > eliminate this? ?I would have thought it was simply > operator error but there was no consistency, rather totally > random.? I could sure use some help as to what to do as > this is extremely frustrating.? > > Thanks, > Susan > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 17:11:46 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes by Immigration Authorities with respect to the granting of P & O Visas In-Reply-To: <862987.26464.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <862987.26464.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:59 AM, chicagomilonguero wrote: > A recent policy change by the US Citizenship and Immigration Service could create considerable challenges for tango instructors interested in touring the United States. As of October 7th, visa petitions may not be filed by a single employer on behalf of multiple arts organizations for artists coming to the U.S. for an itinerary of events, unless the petitioning employer is in the business of being an an agent. As a result, if an artist plans to travel to the U.S. for multiple engagements in one or more cities (unless one of the petitioning employers is legally an agent and obtains permission to file as the primary petitioner on the other arts organizations behalf), each venue must file a separate visa petition. > > I believe a number of tango instructors have had difficulties in obtaining their work visas under this new policies. ? A number of organizations that deal with the arts and dance are trying to challenge the change in this policy. ?It is also not clear what will suffice the "agent" definition. No, the only thing clear is that our government can be a real jerk at times. There, I said it. Huck From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au Sun Nov 8 21:56:58 2009 From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:56:58 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? Message-ID: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> I said "There are many IT nerds and medical doctors in tango.". She said "Rubbish". The debate has degenerated from there. The aim is to win the argument, of course. Nothing to do with statistical validity. Bribery is an option..... So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). It's always been my feeling that tango would appeal to organic chemists - but since I don't know of a single such tango addict, I'm coming, grudgingly, to accept that I may be on a loser there. rde From sl at stevelittler.com Sun Nov 8 22:28:02 2009 From: sl at stevelittler.com (sl@stevelittler.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 22:28:02 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20091108222802.fc77dfl4iy1w4okk@webmail.stevelittler.com> Yes. I'm in IT and all the guys I know in Tango are pretty much all IT, Math Professors, or MD. The women are all PHD Science, Language or in Medical/Health. I like the fact that Tango has the irresistible power to drag me away from the computer to go interact with humans. El Stevito de Gainesville Quoting Roger Edgecombe : > I said "There are many IT nerds and medical doctors in tango.". > She said "Rubbish". > > The debate has degenerated from there. > > The aim is to win the argument, of course. Nothing to do with > statistical validity. Bribery is an option..... > > So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds > and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). > > It's always been my feeling that tango would appeal to organic chemists > - but since I don't know of a single such tango addict, I'm coming, > grudgingly, to accept that I may be on a loser there. > > rde > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From politas at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 22:55:10 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:55:10 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <20091108222802.fc77dfl4iy1w4okk@webmail.stevelittler.com> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> <20091108222802.fc77dfl4iy1w4okk@webmail.stevelittler.com> Message-ID: <4AF7929E.1040609@gmail.com> sl at stevelittler.com wrote: > Yes. I'm in IT and all the guys I know in Tango are pretty much all IT, > Math Professors, or MD. The women are all PHD Science, Language or in > Medical/Health. > > I like the fact that Tango has the irresistible power to drag me away > from the computer to go interact with humans. > > El Stevito de Gainesville > > Quoting Roger Edgecombe : > > >> I said "There are many IT nerds and medical doctors in tango.". >> She said "Rubbish". >> >> The debate has degenerated from there. >> >> The aim is to win the argument, of course. Nothing to do with >> statistical validity. Bribery is an option..... >> >> So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds >> and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). >> Another IT Geek here, and my girlfriend is a librarian. I know at least one medical doctor who does tango here in Canberra, and there are many other IT geeks. I think tango appeals to well-educated and thoughtful people. Myk, in Canberra From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 8 22:58:47 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <155388.41648.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Roger Edgecombe > > I said "There are many IT nerds and medical doctors in tango.". > She said "Rubbish". > This?is an interesting subject that I've often thought about. I can only speak for my own community, and certainly not Argentina where I have a different impression, but I definitely agree with your statement. I know many IT nerds who are tango addicts as well as quite a few medical doctors, including psychologists and psychiatrists.?I'm also amazed at the number of PhDs and university professors. Tango here is full of well-educated people, career-oriented and often in high-level, well-paid, stressful occupations. I'm also involved in the Ballroom community and it definitely isn't the same. I have no explanation. Btw, I'm a retired Civil Engineer. Jack?? From anton at alidas.com.au Mon Nov 9 03:33:43 2009 From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:33:43 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <155388.41648.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> <155388.41648.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01ca6117$592f88f0$0b8e9ad0$@com.au> In a recent post: > " Tango here is full of well-educated people, career-oriented and often in high-level, well-paid, stressful occupations." Maybe more artists and musicians and a substantial infusion of commoner blood may bring balance to the professionals, academians and intelligencia who in my experience, have been disciplined to avoid displays of emotion. Possibly, then we may get closer to replicating BA tango. It must be awfully daunting to continually rub shoulders with the upper echelons of society when you're just ordinary. Could be why so many beginners drift. Rather than the challenges of the dance. Just an ordinary Joe's opinion. Anton From vytis at hotmail.com Mon Nov 9 06:27:28 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:27:28 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? Message-ID: Only a regular engineer here. But yes many IT types in tango, and university types doing/done doctorates in physiology/linguistics/robotics. Might be something to do with a comfortable lifestyle and free time on hand? Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer. Don't see many in tango. Nor do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the military doing tango. Met a botanist once doing tango but never an organic chemist. Vince From aron at milonga.hu Mon Nov 9 07:50:42 2009 From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:50:42 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF81022.4010504@milonga.hu> I run a dancestudio for several years now with many styles of dancing (social and stage), but about 99% of the clientele are white collar workers, many with more than one university degree, well over 50% engineers, IT types, or in real science (this is a well known phenomenon among teachers as well). In a country where 20% claims to speak any other foreign language at some level, well over 80% of the dancer types speak English at conversation level. My theory: the more educated you are, the more open you are to non-current stuff. Couple dancing and most dances at a danceschool are not part of the current popular culture. People with less education are usually too wound up in current things, currently popular ways of spending their free time, that in the Western world they don't end up learning tango. There are some areas where you can see that current and older things bleed into eachother (like salsa), there the clientele is also more varied, but in a place like Hungary where there is no latino population at all, the 'lower class' (as they are usually handled) will abandon most genres as they feel that this is not their social element. Obviously, at places where there is an indigenious population where (couple) dancing is part of their culture, it is more likely to have different echelons side-by-side, or at least having their own parties. In case of tango, I can only imagine this in South America (which observation tends to support). Nevertheless, some great artists or teachers may have a 'low social status' background and be successful nevertheless (we have a several times champion international latin who is a painter (apartments), or a world class modern jazzballet dancer and choreographer who started out as a taxi driver, one of the best swing dancers and also swing DJs in Hungary is a plumber, a well known professional - stage - tango dancer is an active tram driver). Cheers, Aron -- Aron Ecsedy | Create your badge __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4587 (20091109) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From politas at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 09:30:07 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:30:07 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF8276F.8050703@gmail.com> Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer. Don't see many in tango. Nor > do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the > military doing tango. You've met me. I work shift hours. Not sure what you mean by "irregular" though. My shift hours are extremely regular, though disconnected from the standard week in their regularity, which makes it difficult for people who only see me occasionally to see the regularity. And we have at least one other shift worker (who has far more irregular shifts than I do) dancing tango in Canberra, who you also know. Myk, in Canberra From rontango at rocketmail.com Mon Nov 9 09:37:10 2009 From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 06:37:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <639736.82925.qm@web111802.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > > So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds > and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). > I'm a biologist/statistician by day. I live in a university community of 100,000 so most of our tango students are university students, faculty, and researchers. Most others are in white-collar professions where at least a bachelor's degree is needed, but we get a lot of people in tango with more than a bachelor's degree. However, this distribution of educational levels exists in the ballroom dance and folk dance communities here too. Salsa and swing are younger but all university affiliated. The only dance group that is blue collar here is country & western. I think that if you don't have a university it is difficult for a city of 100,000 to establish a tango community. I'd be interested in hearing about exceptions. Ron From macromagix at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 09:55:37 2009 From: macromagix at gmail.com (tony parkes) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:55:37 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AF8276F.8050703@gmail.com> References: <4AF8276F.8050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: and also in oztralia, i know a recently retired fire fighter ie well over 60 years. whilst on duty the shift cycle was two days on, two off then 4 days off. highly regular in one sense, but still shift work because the hours varied because the shifts rotated as did the many overtime calllouts. so vince, you can add firefighters to your list of irregular tangueros cheers tony On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Myk Dowling wrote: > > Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > > Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer. ?Don't see many in tango. ?Nor > > do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the > > military doing tango. > You've met me. I work shift hours. Not sure what you mean by "irregular" > though. My shift hours are extremely regular, though disconnected from > the standard week in their regularity, which makes it difficult for > people who only see me occasionally to see the regularity. And we have > at least one other shift worker (who has far more irregular shifts than > I do) dancing tango in Canberra, who you also know. > > Myk, > in Canberra > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- cheers tony From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Mon Nov 9 14:38:07 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:38:07 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes by Immigration Authorities with respect to the granting of P & O Visas In-Reply-To: <862987.26464.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <862987.26464.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13176a380911091138j4d082936q84d5150716895592@mail.gmail.com> I wrote to a friend at USCIS to get a explanation for the rule change. Below is the answer: "But it should not affect teachers as they are not supposed to be using that visa category anyway. The O and P visa for artists is only for performance and support of performers, not the kind of instruction he seems to be referring to." It seems the rule applies to tango shows, not teaching at festivals. Regardless of the rule, foreigners who work in the US still need a I-765 work permit. I remember one festival reporting that their star teacher wasn't admitted into the country and sent packing on the next available flight. If Immigration catches a tango instructor without a work permit, they can be deported immediately. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I'd danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:59 AM, chicagomilonguero < chicagomilonguero at yahoo.com> wrote: > As of October 7th, visa petitions may not be filed by a single employer on > behalf of multiple arts organizations for artists coming to the U.S. for an > itinerary of events, unless the petitioning employer is in the business of > being an an agent. > > I believe a number of tango instructors have had difficulties in obtaining > their work visas under this new policies. A number of organizations that > deal with the arts and dance are trying to challenge the change in this > policy. It is also not clear what will suffice the "agent" definition. > > > Ray Barbosa > _______________________________________________ > > > > From vytis at hotmail.com Mon Nov 9 15:09:03 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:09:03 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Myk said: > Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer. Don't see many in tango. > Nor > do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the > military doing tango. You've met me. I work shift hours. But being an IT person negates that I think. Still in the town of Canberra with a high percentage of military types and military colleges, I don't seem to have met any doing tango. This topic got me wondering why: maybe because a gregarious, can do attitude does not mix well with the of tango? Most of the tango dancers I have met are reserved and have a calmer nature. Would that be most peoples experience? > And we have at least one other shift worker (who has far more irregular shifts than I do) dancing tango in Canberra, who you also know. Possibly, but I do not know to whom you are referring as it was a long time ago now. I could count very few dancers in Canberra who came from what are called blue collar jobs. I knew one person employed in a desk job in the aviation sector in Canberra (but doing university studies in a language) who has "irregular shift hours" who finds it very difficult to make it to tango events and thus drifted in to other things too. Vince in Melbourne From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 00:53:36 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:53:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <309633.77991.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Vince Bagusauskas vytis at hotmail.com >Still in the town of Canberra > with a high percentage of military types and military colleges, I don't seem > to have met any doing tango.? This topic got me wondering why: maybe because > a gregarious, can do attitude does not mix well with the of tango?? Most of > the tango dancers I have met are reserved and have a calmer nature.? Would > that be most peoples experience? > I'd agree 100%. In fact, if you could put military and tango together, it would probably constitute an oxymoron :-) But I'm sure somebody will prove me wrong. Jack From vytis at hotmail.com Tue Nov 10 04:25:19 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:25:19 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? Message-ID: Jack said: >I'd agree 100%. In fact, if you could put military and tango together, It would probably be like the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pojGjRa13uE Only in Australia...sigh From syarzhuk at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 10:12:23 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:12:23 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>I'd agree 100%. In fact, if you could put military and tango together, > > It would probably be like the following: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pojGjRa13uE Oh my god... I did bolt out of ballroom tango after a single class (hated the way they said the leaders should step - deeply bent knees, heel forward), but this is quite something. I'd name it martial tango :) Sergey From aron at milonga.hu Tue Nov 10 11:57:57 2009 From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?ECSEDY_=C1ron?=) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:57:57 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF99B95.60508@milonga.hu> > Oh my god... I did bolt out of ballroom tango after a single class > (hated the way they said the leaders should step - deeply bent knees, > heel forward), but this is quite something. I'd name it martial tango > :) > I don't think this performance is so bad, it is just not the tango you know. Also, this is a group choreography and because it is done by 16-21 year olds it is obviously lacks a certain artistic merit you'd expect from professional ballroom dancers. Also, as with all synchronous choreographies, the strong and sudden moves help to create the 'togetherness', which is used widely for formation dancing such as this. The choreograper did not try to put much fantasy into this dance, but it is technically well executed. The paso doble style turns and promenade walks make the whole thing very cheesy and unnatural, but you should check out some old ballroom videos from the 50s or 60s: now those are truly hilarious... :D Cheers, Aron -- Ecsedy ?ron *********** Aron ECSEDY Tel: +36 20 66-36-006 http://www.milonga.hu/ http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/ From ralph.hangleiter at web.de Tue Nov 10 13:23:11 2009 From: ralph.hangleiter at web.de (Ralph J. Hangleiter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:23:11 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music and I-Tunes In-Reply-To: <589223.39778.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <589223.39778.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1542FCC1-359E-4213-A61D-30026DE8A710@web.de> Hi, Trini's problems are a bit easier to address than Susan's, as "songs being all over the place" is not really a good description of the error. itunes works in the following way: You have a library (file), where itunes notes which songs you have and then you have the actual songs as files on your hard disk. You can select yourself in the settings, whether you want itunes administer the music or do it yourself. Automatic Administration by itunes: If you set the option "Keep iTunes Media folder organized" in the "Advanced" settings, then itunes orders the files into folders by artist, album and names the files based on the disc number, track number and the song title. Example: Lunfardo is title 3 on disc 1 of album "Live in Colonia" by Astor Piazzolla & Quinteto Tango Nuevo: This will result in your Library folder: Level Folder: 1 Total Library 2 Astor Piazzolla & Quinteto Tango Nuevo 3 Live In Colonia, 1984 (CD 1) 1-03 Lunfardo.mp3 If you want, there is another option which says "Copy files to itunes Media folder when adding to library". This means if you get files from somewhere and add them to itunes, then they are copied in the itunes Media Folder, the original file still exists. But then you have two copies. If you want, you can delete the first one, because you still have the second copy and itunes will work with that. If you administrate yourself, then do not set the option, and then you can create your own folder structure and itunes is just going to note in its library file where you keep the file you just added to itunes. Which means it will take the path of the file on your hard disk, i. e. in which folder it resides, and add that to the file information in the library file. However, if you now go and move a song - you need to inform itunes about this. Because itunes still knows only the old address - so like when you move yourself, you need to make sure mail gets forwarded, in this case itunes will complain next time you want to try to play this song and say it couldn't find it - and you hopefully remember where you put it. So Trini, it would be perfectly possible to work in itunes the same way as in the Windows Media Player, and no, you do not need to keep two versions of the same song. You just need to tell itunes that you want to do this work yourself. As to the mess existing in the information of the songs (the so called tags for fields like artist, album, year, genre, etc), if it has been put in purely manually, and now everything is messed up sounds a strange - why should that happen? However, if you rely on the database (when you put in a new CD to digitize the songs, and after a short time the names "automagically" appear, what happens is that itunes computes a special number from the information it has on the CD (like number and length of the titles) and then looks up the CD in a database. That database is run by a company called gracenote and the information of the CDs is mainly put in by users. So it is not the record labels giving you that information. Therefore there are also quite often some typographical errors, or just plain mistakes. Especially with Tango CDs, which are not quite mainstream, it can happen quite often, that something is mislabeled or has the wrong date/composer/artist whatever. So you should carefully check what itunes comes back with from the information. And yes, if you want to have a properly tagged library, that means quite a lot of work. Hope that sheds some light on the issue - for more questions, contact me with private mail. Kind regards from the Istanbul Tango Ritual festival Ralph Munich, Germany From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 10 19:22:22 2009 From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:22:22 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? Message-ID: <4AFA03BE.8060103@optusnet.com.au> > I don't think this performance is so bad, it is just not the tango you > know. Also, this is a group choreography and because it is done by > 16-21 As I understand it, this is not "group choreography" per se - but a codified sequence and they are not dancing as a group but competing against each other - so you just have individual couples doing the same sequence. It hasn't been choreographed for this event, but is specified in detail so it is standardised across the country (and probably further afield as the "New Vogue" style is spread/pushed). cheers rde From tango22 at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:42:51 2009 From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:42:51 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A1DE059-671B-4E93-AD02-431D910F3B4E@gmail.com> > Aron said, > I don't think this performance is so bad, it is just not the tango you > know. Also, this is a group choreography....... . formation dancing > such as this. > The choreograper did not try to put much fantasy into this dance, > but it > is technically well executed. Yes and no Aron, New Vogue is a peculiarly Australian competitive genre of dance that emerged out of what was termed "old time" dancing, some time after the '60's. It was always danced in set rounds and was often progressive (ie., the ladies moved on to a new partner after a few bars). Not unlike the European mazurkas, polkas etc. The choreography for each named dance (eg., Tango Terrific) is established by competition rules, in advance. The young couples you see here are competing as individuals, not dancing in a choreographed formation. I agree with your comments. It is an elegant and musical form of dance. I am not so arrogant as to laugh at any skillfully performed dance, even if it is not what I do. An example sample of 5 New Vogue dances, including Tango Terrific. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ewkPdxmiJc Oh, and here it is in the traditional social context. Note the band. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xukc_xGGDcI By the way, our Tango scene has a complete cross section of professional and socio-economic groups. it is not at all elitist. I sense that has more to do with the place than the Tango. Excuse me for getting a bit off-topic Best wishes, John From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 23:27:51 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <3A1DE059-671B-4E93-AD02-431D910F3B4E@gmail.com> References: <3A1DE059-671B-4E93-AD02-431D910F3B4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <494297.98829.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Tango22 > > Yes and no Aron, New Vogue is a peculiarly Australian competitive? > genre of dance that emerged out of what was termed "old time" dancing,? > some time after the '60's.??> Thanks for your explanation. I've never heard of 'New Vogue Dancing' and, like Aron, I thought it was a choreographed formation dance. It also explains Vince's "only in Australia" comment, which puzzled me. But, yeah, it is a little off-topic for a tango forum, haha. Jack From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au Wed Nov 11 02:38:29 2009 From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:38:29 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AFA03BE.8060103@optusnet.com.au> References: <4AFA03BE.8060103@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4AFA69F5.7050004@optusnet.com.au> ps: Just to put my earlier "codified" comment into perspective, take a look at: http://linus.it.uts.edu.au/~don/vogue/terr.html I believe this is just an explanation of the "Tango Terrific" sequence - not part of the official specification. (Labanotation is a system for recording choreography - notably for ballet.) It does leave one wondering if a leader's subconscious has this order of complexity bubbling away in its depths during a normal tanda. :) From verheul at interact.com.au Mon Nov 9 18:00:53 2009 From: verheul at interact.com.au (Fran and John Verheul) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:00:53 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Edgecombe" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:56 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? >I said "There are many IT nerds and medical doctors in tango.". > She said "Rubbish". > > The debate has degenerated from there. > > The aim is to win the argument, of course. Nothing to do with > statistical validity. Bribery is an option..... > > So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds > and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). Hi , First post. I often marvel at the fact that a high level government employee , medical doctor or artist allow themselves to be pushed around by a gardener or motor mechanic or housecleaner on the dancefloor, but then "tango" doesnt equate very well with status in real life. For the record I am a semi retired security consultant and have heaps of time to attend milongas. The tanguerra friend that sticks in my mind as the most passionate and elegant that i spend time with listed her occupation as "exotic dancer and personal escort". She was rather busy during most evenings so we danced only in the afternoon in her kitchen. Tango, scones and tea. Heaven! > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From lisa.battan at battanlaw.com Wed Nov 11 09:45:11 2009 From: lisa.battan at battanlaw.com (Lisa Battan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:45:11 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes in O and P Visa processing in the U.S. Message-ID: <1ee2a1600911110645w3c40eef9t4484211f9b3ea891@mail.gmail.com> Dear Michael, You clearly received incorrect advice from your friend at USCIS. What you have written is entirely incorrect. O and P visas are commonly used by tango teachers. I have handled many such applications over the years (many years helping more than 100 dancers or musicians per year). You can also read a statement by many performing arts unions and labor organizations about the new changes to the law at: http://drop.io/czbujc6 Or good legal blog postings at: http://www.entrylaw.com/images/Smoke_and_Mirrors.pdf http://www.nationofimmigrators.com/?p=278 Rather than repeat the law here, I recommend that any one who is considering working with foreign national tango teachers in the U.S. seek the advice of a qualified immigration lawyer - whether it is Ray Barbosa, myself of someone else. Please don't accept legal advice from a nonlawyer or one who thinks he plays one on T.V. The changes USCIS has put into effect have the ability to significantly alter the business of tango in the U.S., especially as it relates to traveling teachers. I strongly urge those in the U.S. who are interested or effected, to contact their Congressional Members and urge a change in these unjustified new policies. Sincerely, Lisa Battan www.battanlaw.com -- The online entry registration period for the DV-2011 Diversity Visa lottery is October 2, 2009, and Monday, November 30, 2009. Entrants apply on Form DS-5501, Electronic Diversity Visa Entry Form, available only during the DV open registration period. Contact us if you want more information. Lisa E. Battan Lisa E. Battan, P.C. 1909 26th Street, Suite 1F, Boulder, CO 80302 303-444-8668 fax: 303-444-4847 toll free: 1-866-614-8668 www.battanlaw.com This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone or return e-mail and return the original message to us at the address above. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 11:27:33 2009 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:27:33 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation Message-ID: Roger says, "I often marvel at the fact that a high level government employee , medical doctor or artist allow themselves to be pushed around by a gardener or motor mechanic or housecleaner on the dance floor, but then "tango" doesn't equate very well with status in real life." It always marvels me that eventually somebody notices "something" that is atypical for the general culture to which he/she belongs to. The traditional milonga is a world of its own,governed by its own codes,secrets and rites: the entrance where you pay the ticket, is frequently separated from the salon by a curtain . This separates the outside from the inside worlds. As you enter you realize that you are in another place, here everyone adopts the role of "tango dancer". it is like being part of a show, who you really are in the outside world is irrelevant, you are recognized and respected as a tango dancer, nobody will ask you what your occupation is, they come here just to dance. The tango dancer hangs his uniform at the end of the day,goes home and carefully prepares himself for the new role, his daily life is left behind. A shower, an elegant suit or a beautiful dress, new shoes and the show starts in this world of postures, gestures, stares and nods. There is no meaningful conversation, only small talk, it is the embrace, the music and the dance. It is "he" and "she", only at that moment, the rest is irrelevant. In the USA as soon as you are introduced to somebody else, you are asked what your occupation is, this immediately places you in the social ladder. To do such a thing in Argentina, would be considered bad manners. If somebody is curious to know what you do, they will ask another person when you are not present but never directly to you or in front of you. Tango in some way reflects that culture. As to being pushed around by a gardener or a mechanic what about Tango-L? Have a nice day, Sergio . _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From tango at tangodesalon.de Fri Nov 13 11:03:24 2009 From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:03:24 -0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes in O and P Visa processing in the U.S. Message-ID: <4FD52258-84D9-4068-A3C2-4A969386A1CD@tangodesalon.de> Hi all, I followed the posts by Lisa, Ray and others and must say, that this topic is really depressing... This new law will definetely not help the Tango in the USA. We've been working in the U.S. a couple of times now and always entered with a P3 Visa. The process of applying for it was very complcated, annoying and costly. It contributed to making our stay in the U.S. a financial loss, as the exchange rate Dollar is so weak and the salaries in the U.S. comparably lower than in Europe. We came nevertheless, because we enjoyed the teaching experience and made great friends! But with this complication in process (and most likely increase in expense, as the lawyers will augment their fees), european teachers will even be further discouraged to enter the U.S.. For us, this is the fatal shot. Ok, one could say: No great loss, we've still got all the Argentines (for whom the dollar/peso exchange rate is fine), but they also will think twice about it or try to enter with tourist visa. And they will HAVE to, as I cannot imagine, that every Tango-school or organizer will be willing to petition for a working permit on behalf of a foreign teacher. It already took a great effort to find ONE sponsor for a longer tours who was willing to do all the paperwork. You will never convince all the private or semi-private organizers to fill out the forms and take that kind of a responsibility. They will just stop inviting foreigners. But actually, this will result in an increase of jobs for the U.S.- american teachers. So, it's now entirely up to you guys! :-) Still, we're quite sad about this development .... :-( Greetings from Buenos Aires, Melina MELINA SEDO & DETLEF ENGEL www.tangodesalon.de www.youtube.com/tangodesalon www.facebook.com/tangodesalon tango at tangodesalon.de (0049) (0)681 9381839 (0049) (0)177 4340669 From rhink2 at netscape.net Fri Nov 13 12:48:36 2009 From: rhink2 at netscape.net (rhink2@netscape.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:48:36 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] A. Tango And Smooth Ballroom: Help Or Hinderance Message-ID: <8CC32A0A8C61CFE-75D0-1CAD@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com> Does Argentine tango help one dance better ballroom? Does ballroom dancing help one dance better A. tango? In other words, is there a cross-training benefit or does one genre interfere with learning the other? Let me be more specific. Smooth (or traveling) ballroom dances, such as waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, and ballroom tango, share things in common with A. tango, but there are profound differences as well. Is there a net gain or a net loss in knowing one style of dance when trying to learn the other. I have some ideas about this question, but I'm interested in hearing your opinions before I express mine. Bob P.S. I googled the list for this topic, but surprisingly I came up blank. From syarzhuk at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 13:09:21 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:09:21 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] A. Tango And Smooth Ballroom: Help Or Hinderance In-Reply-To: <8CC32A0A8C61CFE-75D0-1CAD@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC32A0A8C61CFE-75D0-1CAD@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Any dancing experience helps learning AT, as dancers have more balance than ordinary people. However, I did notice that some women experienced in ballroom tend to lean back, which makes it harder to lead them. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) From tango22 at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 16:17:14 2009 From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:17:14 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Latest Nuevo Moves Message-ID: <498E6A35-B3E0-43EF-9788-F1EAB98E2D16@gmail.com> Stop the Press........ Move over Noughts. Here's the latest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-ss23fGmc From arborlaw at comcast.net Fri Nov 13 11:51:12 2009 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:51:12 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation? In-Reply-To: References: <4AF784FA.4080804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4AFD8E80.2030302@comcast.net> I'm an attorney and I know two other attorneys who dance tango in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area, but of all the local dancers I know, the percentage of engineering/IT/sciences tango dancers has to be at least 75%. Fran and John Verheul wrote: ... >> So - what broadly speaking - is your occupation (in the case of IT nerds >> and doctors, then friend of a friend is quite acceptable). -- Carol Ruth Shepherd, Attorney Arborlaw PLC http://arborlaw.biz/blog/ 734.717.4646 v 734.786.1241 f From tango at springssauna.com Sat Nov 14 13:02:34 2009 From: tango at springssauna.com (Tango Mail) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:02:34 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] A. Tango And Smooth Ballroom: Help Or Hinderance Message-ID: <4AFEF0BA.7080107@springssauna.com> *Bob wrote: *"Does Argentine tango help one dance better ballroom? Does ballroom dancing help one *dance better A. tango? In other words, is there a cross-training benefit or does one *genre interfere with learning the other?" I firmly believe that if you start your dancing career under professional direction with the Ballroom dances, you will be a better Tango dancer quicker. I also think that if you, as a Tango-only-taught-dancer went and started dancing Ballroom, you would have a longer learning curve than vice-versa. I personally began my dancing in the Ballroom circles so I speak from personal experience - others experience may differ. In Ballroom the teachers emphasize on posture and frame for a long time. A tango teacher than made his student pay as much just to learn how to stand right would probably lose that student, even though in my opinion it is something that needs to be done and learned. Tango is famous for drooping heads and concaved shoulders; we've all seen that 6'-8" guy reduced to 6'-2" because he can't keep his head up. Same with women: Tall women seem ashamed of their tallness and shrink and project down. Short women don't arch their backs so they're projecting straight versus up, as they ought to. To learn how to stand up straight and how to properly project and to extend seem to take a lot longer to achieve if attempted via tango-only. I would say years versus months. This of course depends on the abilities and skills of the individual dancer and the frequency of their dancing, but on the whole I do believe the way to start is via Ballroom: it is "big" dancing. Like Daniel Trenner said: It is easier to make the steps small once you've learned them big than it is to make the steps big if you learned them small. Tango in my experience starts off very small - at least in the States. Positives from Ballroom for leader: Straight back and neck, strong square frame, ability to hear the beat in the music. Appreciation for manners and etiquette (including my personal pet peeve: Open Jackets. If you're wearing the jacket to dance you keep it closed. If you're hot you take the Jacket off -as long as you haven't soaked your shirt, then you keep it on and suffer to protect the follower). Negatives from Ballroom for leader: Need to soften the frame to adjust to more crowded dancing conditions and to different holds that different follows have. Need to learn Cabeceo and to stop asking women to dance by standing in front of them, bowing your head, and extending your hand, lol. Positives from Ballroom for follower: Good tall posture and projection, ability to take long back steps without sacrificing ones posture. Ability to follow the lead - only weird things to learn are the cross-step and "sloppy dancing". In close-embrace if you do traveling back-ochos the woman can't be pivoting from their mid-section, it's sub-hip-motion. Negatives from Ballroom for follower: Need to re-learn embrace; connection will be higher than in ballroom, but all one would have to do is pivot from their mid-section: Upper-body comes closer to the leader while the pelvis separates. Re-learn where and how to place their left arm and hand. Also important to keep the head either straight or directed toward the man's instead of away. Again, these are my personal experiences and observations and unless you have similar Ballroom experience then you've no leg to stand on if you're wanting to troll. Ta. From arborlaw at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 11:50:14 2009 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:50:14 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Men's dance shoes (but not sneakers) Message-ID: <4AFEDFC6.4000300@comcast.net> A friend from the swing scene wants to move into dancing the Latin dances (salsa, west coast) and also begin to learn Argentine tango. So far he has been dancing in 'lindy sneakers' (i.e., Chucks or Vans with chromed leather on the bottom). He wants to graduate to 'grownup dance shoes' that will go with dressier outfits. In other words, he doesn't want dance sneakers. What shoes do you dancing men recommend? Should he or should he not get some kind of Cuban heel? Are there any styles that you would recommend that don't look like jazz practice shoes (he doesn't want that look). -- Carol Ruth Shepherd, Attorney Arborlaw PLC http://arborlaw.biz/blog/ 734.717.4646 v 734.786.1241 f From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sun Nov 15 13:01:08 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:01:08 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Men's dance shoes (but not sneakers) References: <4AFEDFC6.4000300@comcast.net> Message-ID: Carol: I use Bloch Jazz Shoes. I don't know what he doesn't like about the look. They are the lightest shoes I've danced in. I had to give up regular dance shoes because I was kicking women with the hard heel when I wrapped my foot around their foot. Now I don't have that problem but still kept the Jazz shoes. Since most milongas are just about pitch black, nobody is going to look at his shoes anyway. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Shepherd" Subject: [Tango-L] Men's dance shoes (but not sneakers) > What shoes do you dancing men recommend? Should he or should he not get > some > kind of Cuban heel? Are there any styles that you would recommend that > don't > look like jazz practice shoes (he doesn't want that look).> -- > > Carol Ruth Shepherd, Attorney > Arborlaw PLC From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sun Nov 15 13:18:28 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:18:28 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] A. Tango And Smooth Ballroom: Help Or Hinderance References: <8CC32A0A8C61CFE-75D0-1CAD@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6D969121BD1545FDA595CA8EC27A95DE@michaelditkoff> Bob: Dancing Argentine Tango greatly improved my ballroom. Because of close embrace, there's no room for error. If I can't lead the woman to step first, there's going to be a collision. In ballroom, the man is off center from the woman. He can move his left foot forward without fear of stepping on the woman's foot. However, it's a terrible lead for the man to move before the woman. Ballroom has prescribed steps and rhythms. Argentine doesn't have prescribed steps and rhythms and forces the man to pay more attention to the woman, e.g. knowing which foot she is standing. In ballroom, couples are on parallel feet virtually all the time so there's less need for the man to know which foot the woman is standing. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: [Tango-L] A. Tango And Smooth Ballroom: Help Or Hinderance > Does > Argentine tango help one dance better ballroom? Does ballroom dancing > help one dance better A. tango? In other words, is there a cross-training > benefit or does one genre interfere with learning the > other? > > Let me be more specific. Smooth (or traveling) ballroom dances, such as > waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, and ballroom tango, share things in common > with A. tango, but there are profound differences as well. Is there a net > gain or a net loss in knowing one style of dance when trying to learn the > other. > > Bob From joe.grohens at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 20:37:05 2009 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:37:05 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango Message-ID: For full interview, see: http://atdrc.com/default.asp?TextDisplay=1&Display=18 Excerpts: Chicho: To think that ?Tango Nuevo? is something that occurred only 10 years ago is a commercial exploitation that we owe to the festival organizers, I don?t think I am doing ?Tango Nuevo?, I feel that I am dancing tango. Because today there is a new generation that learned to dance 2,3 or 5 years ago, who only know how to do the new styles, the ganchos, the colgadas, but who are not in contact with everything that came before, and I go to the milongas and I see people that know how to move but that don?t know how to dance, people don?t breathe tango like they did before. ........................ Chicho: For me the style is something you search for with your partner, and not something that you find separately. ................. Chicho: I haven?t heard anything new yet which reflects what a real tango can make you feel. The dance of today has adapted itself to that kind of music referred to as electronic tango, and it doesn?t fall into the same category as a Pugliese or a Troilo. The tango was hidden for almost 30 years and that is the emptiness which is present today in the tango. There are people who have 60 or 70 years of age, and now there are those who are 30 years old, which is saying that there is a 20 year gap within the tango, because there aren?t really that many people in their 40?s and 50?s in the milongas. I believe that that same thing occurred in the music, there was Piazzola and then there was a jump to Gotan Project, directly to Narcotango, and there hasn?t been a musical process that has accompanied the dance through its evolution. The music hasn?t evolved, it jumped and skipped a very important of the creativity that is happening in the dance, which continues to grow and evolve creatively. .... Interviewer: What do you think about the direction the tango is beginning to take, socially and artistically? Chicho: I think it is a very critical moment, there are many new young people who are beginning to dance today and if we as teachers can?t transmit what was taught to us as the essence of tango when we began, the tango will be lost, because the essence will be lost, and therefore losing its foundations. The most important element is to remain keep the tanguero essence alive, the style doesn?t matter, but that the people are really dancing the tango. Today the road is confusing, it?s in this space where or it either takes a turn towards modern dance or it continues being tango. Today people are dancing tango, but they are not living the tanguero essence, they don?t love the tango. From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 22:46:20 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:46:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Thank you, Joe, for posting this. This is precisely what I've been looking for. An acknowledgement by a "nuevo" teacher that tango shouldn't be "anything goes" as it evolves. That there's an essence to tango, or else the dance becomes something else. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Joe Grohens wrote: > From: Joe Grohens > Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango > To: tango-L at mit.edu > Cc: "Joe Grohens" > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:37 PM > For full interview, see: http://atdrc.com/default.asp?TextDisplay=1&Display=18 > > Excerpts: > > Interviewer: What do you think about the direction the > tango is? > beginning to take, socially and artistically? > > Chicho:? I think it is a very critical moment, there > are many new? > young people who are beginning to dance today and if we as > teachers? > can?t transmit what was taught to us as the essence of > tango when we? > began, the tango will be lost, because the essence will be > lost, and? > therefore losing its foundations. The most important > element is to? > remain keep the tanguero essence alive, the style doesn?t > matter, but? > that the people are really dancing the tango.? Today > the road is? > confusing, it?s in this space where or it either takes a > turn towards? > modern dance or it continues being tango.? Today > people are dancing? > tango, but they are not living the tanguero essence, they > don?t love? > the tango. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From professionalsguild at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 01:38:37 2009 From: professionalsguild at gmail.com (Phil Seyer) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:38:37 -0800 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years Message-ID: My main job these days is to throw massive New Years Eve Parties. It takes month of planning and a huge investment. I have a question for the list about whether I should have a "tango room" at one of my parties. I'm going into detail here so you can better understand my situation. Traditionally these NYE parties I throw have not involved tango, but focused mainly on live rock, funk, soul, and R&B bands, DJs, casino gaming, complimentary drinks, hotel take-overs, dinner, breakfast for two, and such. I say "hotel take-overs" because we literally take over the entire hotel. We don't just rent a room or two. In 2006 I saw a couple dancing beautiful Argentine tango while the band played some heavy rock tune. It was really good Argentine tango and fancinating to watch. In 207 and 2008 I tried to find some tango dancers to perform for my parties (I host two of them simultaneously, one in Sacramento and the other In the Bay Area.) No luck. This year I succeeded in booking Johnathan Yamauchi and Oliva Levitt, two dedicated teachers who dance and teach the Carlos Gavito style.? The idea is that they will perform informally in the lobby of the hotel to entertain the party-goers standing in the huge line waiting to get in. Later in the evening, they'll do a tango performance in the DJ ballroom (which holds about 500 people). I'm thinking of also using a smaller room as a "tango room" and playing some authentic Argentine tango tunes in that room so that people can dance or watch Argentine tango dancing in that room. The room will hold, say, 30 to 50 people. The event will be a huge success without a tango room. I know that more than 1000 will be in attendance at the party and that all hotel rooms will sell out. But I was thinking that another room might just add to the variety and the offering. We would then have 3 dance floors as well as poker, roulette, black jack and craps in another room (not real gamblling, but complimentary gaming for prizes).. But is the tango room is a good idea? Will any tango dancers come?? Is there too much of a culture clash or will the diversity add to the event? Please let me know your thoughts. From sato160 at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 16:11:52 2009 From: sato160 at gmail.com (PAUL SATO) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:11:52 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] FLOORING: HARDWOOD OR LAMINATE? Message-ID: <45cfb0330911161311u3690945epba07cfda75f33591@mail.gmail.com> I'm looking at redoing the floors in the den and spare bedroom for dancing. Any opinions out there on Laminate and/or engineered wood flooring compared to Hardwood? Is the dance experience noticeably different on hardwood vs laminate? Den is in the basement so unless moisture levels are surprisingly low, I'm thinking laminated ("Pergo") flooring, unless dance experience is really much worse... Thanks Paul From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Thu Nov 19 08:26:02 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:26:02 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13176a380911190526s1b10cfb8y138f6cd4f77a4f34@mail.gmail.com> Phil: The whole issue comes down to money. How much are you charging? Somebody complained to me about a NYE MILONGA that costs $50. Michael Washington, DC On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Phil Seyer wrote: > My main job these days is to throw massive New Years Eve Parties. It takes > month of planning and a huge investment. I have a question for the list > about whether I should have a "tango room" at one of my parties. > > But is the tango room is a good idea? Will any tango dancers come? Is > there too much of > a culture clash or will the diversity add to the event? > > Please let me know your thoughts. > From vytis at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:47:03 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:47:03 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re: Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango Message-ID: With respect, Chico does not speak for what true social Argentine tango is. He speaks for a form of tango that he is doing very nicely with by way of performances and teaching. From vytis at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:53:27 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:53:27 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Tango on New Years Message-ID: There are tango dancers that do other types of dances. I know of one place in Wellington, NZ that has both a Salsa and a tango "room" on at the same time and some dancers go from room to room, depending upon their mood. Another venue for NYE is having a tango party away from the madding crowd, spiced up with some salsa and rock and roll, but predominately tango. So maybe your tango room may attract some punters. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 11:02:48 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <397630.22823.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Phil Seyer wrote: > My main job these days is to throw > massive New Years Eve Parties. > It takes month of planning and a huge investment. > I have a question for the list about whether I should have > a "tango room" at one of my parties. I'm going into detail > here so you can better understand my situation. It looks as if you have nothing to lose by having a tango room and a lot to gain. You've already hired the dancers. Having a tango room would give them an opportunity to meet people. You might attract a lot more people to tango. You might want to set up the dance floor for a smaller crowd and then expand it as needed. Go for it. Trini de Pittsburgh From joanneprochaska at aol.com Thu Nov 19 11:28:03 2009 From: joanneprochaska at aol.com (joanneprochaska@aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:28:03 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] FLOORING: HARDWOOD OR LAMINATE? In-Reply-To: <45cfb0330911161311u3690945epba07cfda75f33591@mail.gmail.com> References: <45cfb0330911161311u3690945epba07cfda75f33591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC374C65FD64F2-900-179C6@webmail-d084.sysops.aol.com> I have found no difference in dancing on hardwood compared to laminate. The difference is in how the floor is installed, if the subfloor is a concrete slab. If the floor (either type) is installed directly on a concrete slab, then your legs and feet get tired much more quickly, because there is no cushion underfoot. If the floor (either type) is installed as a "floating" floor, (i.e., with some type of riser intstalled over the concrete to lift the floor off the concrete slab), then the floor has some "give" under it and your feet and legs do not get as tired. In our house (built on a slab), the floor contractor used plywood strips as the risers under our maple hardwood dancefloor. We love it, and we can dance all day and all night on it. I have heard that there are rubber discs that can be used as risers under the wood flooring. I am sure that would also be good. I don't know the lifespan of the rubber discs. You would have to find someone who used that product to get a recommendation. As far as your basement, I would personally install the laminate in the "floating" configuration, because the investment is less costly than the cost of hardwood. If the basement gets water in it, the loss would be less than if the hardwood got soaked. I still would definitely use the floating configuration for the installation, for the benefit of my legs and feet. In your bedroom, the better investment is hardwood flooring. You can refinish hardwood many times, and it will last for hundreds of years. Laminate is limited, in that you can only refinish it once. Laminate has only a thin layer of wood on the top of the engineered material, and that layer is greatly reduced when you sand it and refinish it, so you can only refinish it once. If your subfloor is plywood, then I don't think it is necessary to install risers under the flooring to ensure comfortable dancing. A plywood subfloor is already a surface that will offer some "give" under your hardwood or laminate flooring. Happy dancing! Joanne Pogros Cleveland, Ohio www.tangocleveland.com -----Original Message----- From: PAUL SATO To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: [Tango-L] FLOORING: HARDWOOD OR LAMINATE? I'm looking at redoing the floors in the den and spare bedroom for dancing. Any opinions out there on Laminate and/or engineered wood flooring compared o Hardwood? Is the dance experience noticeably different on hardwood vs laminate? Den is in the basement so unless moisture levels are surprisingly low, I'm hinking laminated ("Pergo") flooring, unless dance experience is really uch worse... Thanks aul ______________________________________________ ango-L mailing list ango-L at mit.edu ttp://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From brianpdunn at earthlink.net Thu Nov 19 11:46:34 2009 From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:46:34 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] FLOORING: HARDWOOD OR LAMINATE? In-Reply-To: <45cfb0330911161311u3690945epba07cfda75f33591@mail.gmail.com> References: <45cfb0330911161311u3690945epba07cfda75f33591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <014801ca6937$db195a30$914c0e90$@net> Hi Paul, We've been dancing and teaching on our Pergo basement floor for ten years. Pergo's pretty much indestructible under normal conditions in our experience, and very easy to clean. For several years it appeared to be perfectly smooth. The we had a massive storm hit while we were on the road somewhere else, and the basement leaked a little, I'm told. This brought a LOT of moisture up into the Pergo installation, and resulted in it not being mirror-finish anymore - you can see and very slightly feel the seams between the "boards" - but for tango in high heels it still compares very well with a good-quality wood floor. We expect many more happy years of dancing on it. Good luck with your project, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart Boulder, CO USA www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of PAUL SATO Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:12 PM To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] FLOORING: HARDWOOD OR LAMINATE? I'm looking at redoing the floors in the den and spare bedroom for dancing. Any opinions out there on Laminate and/or engineered wood flooring compared to Hardwood? Is the dance experience noticeably different on hardwood vs laminate? Den is in the basement so unless moisture levels are surprisingly low, I'm thinking laminated ("Pergo") flooring, unless dance experience is really much worse... Thanks Paul _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From joanneprochaska at aol.com Thu Nov 19 11:47:20 2009 From: joanneprochaska at aol.com (joanneprochaska@aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC374F1844E36A-900-17F88@webmail-d084.sysops.aol.com> Some points: a.) Considering the focus of your NYE parties, it would not seem that just having a tango room would attract serious tango dancers. They will look for a New Year's Eve Milionga to satisfy their hunger on this special night. b.) Even if serious tango dancers do attend, then the music had better be the best, or they will be sorely disappointed that they spent XXX dollars to get in and you will certainly hear the complaints. c.) IMHO, the tango room would end up being a curiosity for those non-tango dancers who will watch whoever is dancing and some may "try" to dance the tango, which will just annoy any serious tango dancers who may be dancing. In conclusion, it does not seem that there are enough good reasons to dedicate a room and get a dj just for tango. My advice is to concentrate on the focus of your parties. As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"! Joanne Pogros Cleveland, Ohio www.tangocleveland.com From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 12:03:56 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:03:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <767327.1922.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > With respect, Chico does not speak > for what true social Argentine tango is. > He speaks for a form of tango that he is doing very nicely > with by way of > performances and teaching. I do believe, Vince, that Chicho speaks with an authority that neither you, I, or many on this list can claim - that of growing up in Argentina, being surrounded by tango all of your life, and knowing intimately what tango means to the residents of BsAs. I also know someone who knew Chicho before he became Chicho, and he was just a regular guy like everyone else. Went through much of the same process of trying to learn the way other people did. Although his current dance is different from the traditionalists, I think he has the understanding of classic tango to speak with authority on it. Trini de Pittsburgh From buffmilonguera at aol.com Thu Nov 19 12:19:42 2009 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC37539DC3C38F-7A28-23C1@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com> I can tell you that, from my experience, any tango offering is going to be better attended than you think - and not just by tango dancers. I have recently been to two chamber music concerts featuring tango music - totally packed much to the surprise of the hosts. I have done similar "tango rooms" or other tango programs at fund-raisers, and folks love it - even if they just come to watch. If you do a tango room, I would "salt it" with several local folks who know how to do the dance and people will love the opportunity to watch and listen to the music regardless of whether they dance or not - although in the past, I have asked "my" dancers to volunteer to wear a red ribbon - and I tell the watchers that the folks who are wearing a ribbon have already volunteered to try it with them if they ask. I like the ribbon idea, because if the volunteer really wants to take a tanda or two "off" they can just take the ribbon off and put it back on..... barbra From politas at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:22:25 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:22:25 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango on New Years In-Reply-To: <8CC37539DC3C38F-7A28-23C1@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC37539DC3C38F-7A28-23C1@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B05C521.3080709@gmail.com> Barbra wrote: > I can tell you that, from my experience, any tango offering is going to > be better attended than you think - and not just by tango dancers. I > have recently been to two chamber music concerts featuring tango music > - totally packed much to the surprise of the hosts. I have done > similar "tango rooms" or other tango programs at fund-raisers, and > folks love it - even if they just come to watch. This would match my experience. Tango i surprisingly popular amongst people who don't actually go out of their way to learn it. We have quite excellent attendance to tango workshops held at folk festivals here in Australia. Of course, the alternative viewpoint then is whether the tango dancers you do have are going to be happy having a crowd of gawkers. Salting the room with some local tango dancers who are expecting to be on display is probably a good idea. From manaobooks at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 00:02:42 2009 From: manaobooks at gmail.com (Margaret Davis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:02:42 -0800 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango between the covers -- of books! Message-ID: Greetings all, The posting rules of the list kindly allow one-time introductions of tango-related professionals and groups, so here goes: I operate a small bookbinding business in Portland, Oregon, with increasingly tango-related titles. Last year, I wrote about what it might have been like to dance tango with Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the then new leader of Turkey, in 1926. The result was printed letterpress and "bound" in a cloth-covered box. More recently, I produced A Tango Diary, which can be used for everything from writing down the dances to remember, recalling perfect tandas, or making class notes. Among the future projects is a limited-edition "reader's guide" to Astor Piazzolla's 1987 concert in Central Park. As part of my ongoing research for the project, I would love to hear from those who were at the concert or who have any special memories or experiences attached to the event or the recording itself. Contact information is on my site, manaobooks.com. Wishing you wonderful dances, Margaret ---- Margaret Davis, Ma Nao Books manaobooks.com, manaobooks.etsy.com From don at aymta.org Fri Nov 20 12:59:10 2009 From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:59:10 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B06D8EE.7070301@aymta.org> Although I prefer Guardia Viejo y Guardia Nuevo, I think that Electro-Tango may bring back the rhythm of Candombe that became lost . ?Si, non? Don > The dance of today has adapted itself to that kind of music referred to as electronic tango, From clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar Fri Nov 20 13:45:06 2009 From: clambat2001 at yahoo.com.ar (Alberto Gesualdi) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] candombe lost ??it was Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo In-Reply-To: <4B06D8EE.7070301@aymta.org> Message-ID: <717617.42349.qm@web46015.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> as far as I have been listening, the only tango electronico music with some kind of drums like candombe uses , is " mi buenos querido" from CD Narcotango from Libedinsky. I dont know why Don Klein says "bring back"and "lost" for candombe. This dance is alive and kicking in uruguay, and each year the neighbourhoods of Montevideo make their "llamadas" as usual. Llamadas are beating of drums that each neighbourhood has to call his musicians and dancers , each one is different. Here in Buenos Aires, at San Telmo neighbourhood, is also a smaller "llamada" each year, since , is true, in Buenos Aires, candombe music and dance is not so widely practiced. Uruguay country, promotes their candombe music and dance as a cultural heritage, and many today musicians as Ruben Rada, Yabor,Hugo Fatorusso, Cuareim group, the comparsa/carnical parade Falta y Resto, use this music , that definetely, is not lost. check at http://www.candombe.com/english.html for actual over the counter information .... alberto buenos aires --- El vie 20-nov-09, Don Klein escribi?: > De: Don Klein > Asunto: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo > Para: tango-l at mit.edu > Fecha: viernes, 20 de noviembre de 2009, 3:59 pm > Although I prefer Guardia Viejo y > Guardia Nuevo, I think that > Electro-Tango may bring back the rhythm of Candombe that > became? lost . > ?Si, non? > > Don > > > The dance of today has adapted itself to that kind of > music referred to as electronic tango, > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Yahoo! Cocina Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From grus.canadensis at yahoo.com Mon Nov 23 14:56:17 2009 From: grus.canadensis at yahoo.com (Sandhill Crane) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:56:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango In-Reply-To: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > Thank you, Joe, for posting this.? This is precisely what > I've been looking for.? An acknowledgement by a "nuevo" teacher > that tango shouldn't be "anything goes" as it evolves.? That > there's an essence to tango, or else the dance becomes > something else. I wonder why there seems to be a disconnect between this teacher's personal concept of tango and what the people who comprise his school of dance, broadly speaking, seem to express. Tango nuevo is entirely about acrobatics from what I can tell, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. But Chicho hints that there is something more about tango. What is that, and why do the people who claim to be influenced by him seem to miss it? To give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps his feelings about tango are so fundamental that he forgets to talk about it when he teaches others; maybe he's assuming (incorrectly) that everyone shares his deeply-held basic assumptions. What are those assumptions, and how could he (or any other teacher) pass them on to his students? This interview is about Chicho, but I have the same questions about Gustavo or Homer or any other widely-known tango nuevo teacher. From brianpdunn at earthlink.net Mon Nov 23 19:48:34 2009 From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:48:34 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> "Sandhill", you wrote: >>> I wonder why there seems to be a disconnect between [Chicho's] personal concept of tango and what the people who comprise his school of dance, broadly speaking, seem to express. <<< Well, you know, Picasso's students perhaps exhibited a similar failing... but that doesn't mean Picasso is any less of a genius, he's still Picasso. Perhaps the students Chicho inspires will someday better reflect their master's genius than they do now - successfully learning from a true genius can take some time. But if the teacher is inspiring enough, the student is more likely to keep working to improve. Don't shortchange the inspiration factor! ;) >>> Tango nuevo is entirely about acrobatics from what I can tell, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. <<< Hmmm..."Sandhill", do YOU dance (what you call) "tango nuevo" well enough to understand it from the inside? If not, are you sure you know what it's "entirely about"? According to the interview, Chicho is drawing a distinction between "antique tango" as a "violently marked" tango, as opposed to "today's" tango, whose dancers are "able to dance without barely touching one another". Notice he didn't say that "today's dancers" barely touch one another, he said they are ABLE to dance that way, and (by implication) that dancers of a more "antique" tango are UNABLE to dance that way. When you are dancing with someone who doesn't NEED to touch you to regain their own balance, for example, it's more likely that your partner's touch is for purely expressive reasons having to do with your musical/emotional connection to them, as opposed to "mechanical/logistical" purposes arising from their technique habits. The history of tango dance over the decades since the 1920's can be seen from one perspective as a progressive reduction of violence and unnecessary force in relationships between men and women (or leaders and followers, if you prefer) in the dance. This trend will likely continue. >>> But Chicho hints that there is something more about tango. What is that, and why do the people who claim to be influenced by him seem to miss it? <<< See first paragraph...but you've raised another very interesting question. I recently heard another well-traveled tango teacher (in the USA and internationally) describe the male dancers in a certain city as generally lacking skills in "nice close-embrace" tango, but instead typically demonstrating what the teacher termed "violent milonguero". I was quite struck by the expression, since I was personally aware that the teacher in question was, comparatively speaking, in a position to know. This observation, since corroborated by other well-traveled dancers of my acquaintance, raises the possibility that it is not just the so-called "nuevo" teachers who may be failing to pass on something essential about tango to the "students who comprise their school of dance, broadly speaking" - unless violence between partners is seen as something essential to tango. Still, perhaps those male dancers are still learning, and will remain hungry to learn. Perhaps we can hope those leaders will, over time, improve their connection skills to the point where such characterizations will no longer apply to them. My concern is that they are unaware of the relative violence and roughness in their dance, because they believe they are apparently meeting the observable "requirements" of their chosen "style". The sad fact is that they are probably not getting feedback from their followers about the relative violence of their dance. Many followers I have talked to are in despair over the fact that many of their local leaders have stopped improving. But from a leader's point of view, after all, he gets an acceptable number of dances at his current skill level. After getting all dressed up for a milonga, followers might rather have a "violent" lead than none at all. In some way, the dilemma seems to need a community approach, because each individual follower may have clear incentives not to be the one to "bear the bad news". Any ideas how to get around the dilemma? All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" From anton at alidas.com.au Mon Nov 23 20:44:56 2009 From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:44:56 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> Message-ID: <005601ca6ca7$b9cc4270$2d64c750$@com.au> I can dance in a state of Tango spiritually and with the music without a partner. But I don't believe I'm dancing tango. Throughout history, most humans and primates danced singularly, connected to their spirituality and the rhythmic beat. Many Eastern and Folk dances are still danced without the technical association of a partner. Dancing, it would seem, can be everything from singular to multiple partner, incrementally accommodating very distant to very close connections between the dancers. The tango dance thrust itself upon the world unambiguously as the closest connection dance of all. I doubt if it had been loosely danced 18 inches or 2 feet apart that tango the dance would have raised an eyebrow and now we'd all probably need to consult a dictionary to discover what is meant by Tango. Would it be wrong to suggest that the closer we connect with our partner, the more we are dancing tango? Oh dear, what is meant by close connection? Anton From joanneprochaska at aol.com Mon Nov 23 20:51:50 2009 From: joanneprochaska at aol.com (joanneprochaska@aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:51:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> Message-ID: <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Many followers I have talked to are in despair over the fact that many of heir local leaders have stopped improving. But from a leader's point of iew, after all, he gets an acceptable number of dances at his current skill evel. After getting all dressed up for a milonga, followers might rather ave a "violent" lead than none at all. In some way, the dilemma seems to eed a community approach, because each individual follower may have clear ncentives not to be the one to "bear the bad news". Any ideas how to get around the dilemma? Brian, I am so impressed that you are looking for a solution to the followers' despair. I thank you for your awareness and for your interest. This truly reflects good character on your part. We as women and followers need to have more pride in ourselves, need to value quality rather than quantity, and need to communicate this to other women so we can all be on the same page, we can support each other and we can educate each other. What do students do when the food at the cafeteria is soooooo bad????? If we keep eating it and not say anything, will the food get any better? NO! But if the students band together and protest, and refuse to buy more meal tickets, then the administration listens and makes changes to improve the situation. It depends on who needs whom. In my book, women should be quite confident that if one man cannot meet her needs (give her a nice dance), then, not to worry because there is another one who can, and never go running after that first man like he was the only man at the milonga. I would rather sit all night then have bad dances. I would rather dance with a green-as-grass beginner than be manhandled by a guy who has been dancing for several years but has no quality or respect. Hey, maybe that is just me, but I am sure that there is at least one other woman reading this who is thinking "wow, how can I get that kind of confidence?" And when the topic comes up, I am not afraid to say that I won't dance with so and so because he is clueless after several years of lessons. And when the other woman agrees that that man is leading in a disrespectful way, I say that it is ALWAYS the woman's choice. She does not have to dance with anyone she does not want to dance with. If the men hold it against her, then we might as well as be living in a police state, eh??? Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK TO SAY NO, and why. If women do not uphold the standards of good dancing, then all will "go to xxxx in handbasket:", as they say. Joanne Pogros Cleveland, Ohio www.tangocleveland.com From anton at alidas.com.au Mon Nov 23 22:11:23 2009 From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:11:23 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <007701ca6cb3$cda244f0$68e6ced0$@com.au> Joanne wrote: "She does not have to dance with anyone she does not want to dance with. If the men hold it against her, then we might as well as be living in a police state, eh??? Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK TO SAY NO, and why. If women do not uphold the standards of good dancing, then all will "go to xxxx in handbasket:", as they say." The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance without publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a problem for Western women to practice it? Is the problem that W. Women don't want to appear to be soliciting for a dance. Why can't they admit they want a dance? Natural law would suggest that leaders who constantly fail to win a dance, will either fade away, or re-engineer themselves to become more successful. It's got that Tango feel about it don't you think? Joanne wrote: " I would rather dance with a green-as-grass beginner than be manhandled by a guy who has been dancing for several years but has no quality or respect." In my heart I agree with Joanne's sentiments. But how do I know what a woman wants? Even though 3 years and countless lessons have ticked by since I embarked on tango, my greatest battle still lies in understanding how each woman wants to be embraced and led. Although I believe this to be the most important aspect of the dance, I think I have had minimal instruction on what is ideal. "invite and then follow"; "take me with you"; "strong lead"; "gentle lead" "gentle embrace"; "firm embrace"; "soft" "hard" etc. It appears one size does not fit all. I have experimented to show that a forceful embrace is welcomed during certain moves whilst totally rejected if employed in say a normal walk or initial embrace. I feel so frustrated that instincts that come naturally to a born dancer have to be learned by guys like myself. When my mindset is on being sensitive and caring I'm in grave danger of being too soft. When I adjust to being assertive I can easily fall into manhandling. What I need is a leader to manhandle me so I know what the boundary's are. I need someone that can make me feel what the correct embrace should be. Maybe the beauty of tango is the process of learning the embrace and how to deploy it during a dance. Anton From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Mon Nov 23 23:38:36 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:38:36 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "niceclose embrace": what to do? References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net><8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <007701ca6cb3$cda244f0$68e6ced0$@com.au> Message-ID: <14C7B71E64F14E6BA603DC8D6CAF26FE@michaelditkoff> Anton: American culture and milnogas are completely different from Argentine culture and milongas. You can't use cabeceo in a milonga that is just about pitch black. My ballroom teacher told me that American women are taught to wait-- and wait -- and wait. Asking a man to dance is being aggressive and shows no class. This attitude carries over to milongas where women just wait. On airplanes, passengers are told the nearest exit may be behind them. At a milonga, the closest dancer may be behind or to their side, but they don't look there, only onto the dance floor. Based on a non random sample of woman I queried in Washington, DC and Denver, women told me they want a firm, but gentle lead on beat, and with confidence. My teacher told me to give the woman a firm frame and let her decide how close to dance. React to how she holds YOU and not the other way around. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anton Stanley" Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview: what to do? The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance without publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a problem for Western women to practice it? Is the problem that W. Women don't want to appear to be soliciting for a dance. Why can't they admit they want a dance? Natural law would suggest that leaders who constantly fail to win a dance, will either fade away, or re-engineer themselves to become more successful. It's got that Tango feel about it don't you think? > But how do I know what a woman wants? Even though 3 years and countless lessons have ticked by since I embarked on tango, my greatest battle still lies in understanding how each woman wants to be embraced and led. Although I believe this to be the most important aspect of the dance, I think I have had minimal instruction on what is ideal. "invite and then follow"; "take me with you"; "strong lead"; "gentle lead" "gentle embrace"; "firm embrace"; "soft" "hard" etc. It appears one size does not fit all. Anton From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 24 01:47:33 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:47:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <738920.18227.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: "joanneprochaska at aol.com" joanneprochaska at aol.com > In my book, women should be quite confident that > if one man cannot meet her needs (give her a nice dance), then, not to worry > because there is another one who can ...> Maybe yes, maybe no. Joanne, I understand what you're saying and, to some extent, agree with you. But ladies who become too choosy must be prepared to accept the consequences. In my own community, there are a number of ladies who have developed a reputation for being overly-critical of the men [usually after a visit to BsAs]. The result is that no one asks them to dance anymore. Maybe ladies need to be prepared to accept a few 'not-so-good' tandas so that they can get a few 'good' tandas. But that's everyone's choice to make. Jack From grus.canadensis at yahoo.com Tue Nov 24 11:55:55 2009 From: grus.canadensis at yahoo.com (Sandhill Crane) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:55:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <288136.14533.qm@web113103.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: joanneprochaska at aol.com > Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK > TO SAY NO, and why. If women do not uphold the > standards of good dancing, then all will "go to xxxx in > handbasket:", as they say. Be careful what you wish for, as they say. The most likely outcome is that the already-small pool of men will dwindle even more, which leads to a pretty common situation in the States: a small scene with high turnover, and nobody is getting good dances. I'm going to suggest that women could do some simple things to encourage the men to hang in there long enough to get better. Probably the most effective would be to give a response that's more focused than a simple "no": I'd like you to stand up straight, please don't squeeze my hand so hard, let's just go for a simple walk (i.e. don't try so many tricks), etc etc. "No" carries very little information in it. How is a man supposed to know what to do? Help him out a little. The second thing is just to talk to people (this applies to both men and women). It's often said that tango is a conversation and I'm convinced it works the other way as well. Why not spend a minute or two in idle chit-chat. The next time there's an event, people think, maybe unconsciously, about the last one. If they have a memory of a warm, inviting experience they're more likely to try it again. Conversation doesn't directly improve anyone's dance technique, but they certainly won't improve if they don't come back. Another consideration (I promise I'll stop here) is that people should dance open-embrace until they know each well enough for close embrace, even if one partner or the other customarily dances in close embrace. In open embrace you can be much more forgiving about technical problems. I'm inclined to look at the big picture here. What I want is a big tango scene with lots of experienced people. I'm thinking, what should we do that might lead to that. From laura at lavatop.com Tue Nov 24 12:24:38 2009 From: laura at lavatop.com (Laura V) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:24:38 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice close embrace": what to do? In-Reply-To: <738920.18227.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <738920.18227.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0C16D6.30701@lavatop.com> Jack Dylan wrote: > Maybe ladies need to be prepared to accept a few 'not-so-good' tandas so that they > can get a few 'good' tandas. But that's everyone's choice to make. True...but the way I understood Joanne's comments is that there is a difference between a "bad" dancer and an inexperienced one. I'm quite happy to dance with a few inexperienced dancers to balance getting the chance to dance with some experienced ones. But a bad dancer is one who is forcefully pulling and pushing you out of balance, bumping you into the other dancers (perhaps without apologizing) and otherwise making the dance very unpleasant; these are the ones who seem oblivious to the idea of taking further lessons to improve because they think they are good enough. Imagine the message they might get when they notice the woman choosing a beginner dancer over them. I do think there are discreet ways of making suggestions to men who are truly trying to improve. Usually this is best done not during the tanda you are dancing, but in a neutral conversation another time where you might point out positive traits in leading that you like - in a general way, not like you are correcting them. Often bad dancing occurs when the leader is trying to do too many fancy steps that he is not capable of. I love to point out good dancers who use very simple steps but have great musicality...the inexperienced dancer is often surprised because they can't "see" what's so great about that dancer. But I have also been known to make gentle comments on the dance floor - I've sometimes used "Excuse me, but I'm having a problem in my shoulder, would you mind using very little pressure in your left arm"...or can you guys see right through that one? ;) Laura From valerie.dark at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:16:46 2009 From: valerie.dark at gmail.com (Valerie Dark) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:16:46 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Ghandi and the cabaceo Message-ID: <62e5af2b0911241116s4d1025caoa48f271588fcc325@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Anton Stanley wrote: > The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance without > publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a > problem for Western women to practice it? > The whole cabaceo discussion is academic, at least in North America. Are you in Australia, Anton? Do people use the cabaceo where you are? In North America, there are a few people who try to do it, but it isn't practiced uniformly. It is't that Western women have a particular hard time doing it. It's simply hard for anyone to do it unless everyone does it. Remember in the climax of the movie "Ghandi" when the whole country suddenly laid down their arms and practiced non-violent resistence all at once? You'd need something like that here to get the cabaceo adopted. Even if you do want to cabaceo between partners, it's hard to do here. For one thing, people don't clear the floors for cortinas. That means partners can't find one another by sight from a distance. Where I am, there is no reserved seating in milongas and never enough chairs for everyone in attendance. We just don't conceive of a milonga like the ones in B.A. Without a "home base" to return to after dancing, everyone mills around and hooks up for dances by walking up to each other. A few dancers "in the know" try to practice a cabaceo mutation by walking up to someone and, instead of sticking out the hand, nodding from a distance of approximately 2-and-a-half feet. It's a cabaceo in form, if not function. It's a cultural difference that can't be bridged here. It would require a country to decide, spontaneously, to be different! Valerie -- Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark http://crypticember.blogspot.com From meganpingree at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 15:31:36 2009 From: meganpingree at comcast.net (Megan Pingree) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:31:36 -0800 Subject: [Tango-L] Ghandi and the cabaceo In-Reply-To: <62e5af2b0911241116s4d1025caoa48f271588fcc325@mail.gmail.com> References: <62e5af2b0911241116s4d1025caoa48f271588fcc325@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Valerie Just curious: where in North America do you dance? Here in Portland, OR both methods of asking are used, a lot! -- even tho the floors don't completely clear during cortinas, even tho there is no such thing as "my" table. I usually solicit and accept dances by cabeceo -- from across the room, from up or down the row of tables, from across the snack table. Not academic. Not essential either, just immensely helpful. :-) Megan On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Valerie Dark wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Anton Stanley > wrote: >> The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance >> without >> publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a >> problem for Western women to practice it? > > > The whole cabaceo discussion is academic, at least in North America. > Are you in Australia, Anton? Do people use the cabaceo where you are? > > In North America, there are a few people who try to do it, but it > isn't practiced uniformly. It is't that Western women have a > particular hard time doing it. It's simply hard for anyone to do it > unless everyone does it. > > Remember in the climax of the movie "Ghandi" when the whole country > suddenly laid down their arms and practiced non-violent resistence all > at once? You'd need something like that here to get the cabaceo > adopted. > > Even if you do want to cabaceo between partners, it's hard to do here. > For one thing, people don't clear the floors for cortinas. That means > partners can't find one another by sight from a distance. Where I am, > there is no reserved seating in milongas and never enough chairs for > everyone in attendance. We just don't conceive of a milonga like the > ones in B.A. Without a "home base" to return to after dancing, > everyone mills around and hooks up for dances by walking up to each > other. A few dancers "in the know" try to practice a cabaceo mutation > by walking up to someone and, instead of sticking out the hand, > nodding from a distance of approximately 2-and-a-half feet. It's a > cabaceo in form, if not function. > > It's a cultural difference that can't be bridged here. It would > require a country to decide, spontaneously, to be different! > > Valerie > > -- > Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark > http://crypticember.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From stermitz at tango.org Tue Nov 24 17:07:20 2009 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:07:20 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Ghandi and the cabaceo In-Reply-To: <62e5af2b0911241116s4d1025caoa48f271588fcc325@mail.gmail.com> References: <62e5af2b0911241116s4d1025caoa48f271588fcc325@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ED28CAF-2387-4819-9BD9-FE2A6B5508AC@tango.org> Valerie, What you say may be true for you and your community, but there are other places in the US where it works fine. Therefore, you can't generalize across North America. You also can't claim it is a cultural issue (ever been to a singles bar?) And, culturally, in North America it is normal and common for people to nod to say hello. Also, the cabaceo works best with someone you already know or you like to dance with. Women are always looking around for their favorite partners; if that is you, then the dance is just a nod away. Thus, if you see your favorite partner being chatted up by some guy who you KNOW doesn't dance well, you can rescue her by giving her that nod, and she'll excuse herself with the (true) excuse that she has the next dance promised. The cabaceo allows both men and women to reserve the next dance with someone they want. Speaking for my community: In Denver, most of the milongas and the big practice have seating for almost the whole crowd. The DJs universally play tandas with cortinas, even at the practices. The floors USUALLY clear, except for a few partner hogs who are insecure that if they sat down they'd lose the partner they want. It's kind of embarrassing to see them standing alone in the middle of the room with everybody staring at them. On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Valerie Dark wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Anton Stanley > wrote: >> The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance >> without >> publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a >> problem for Western women to practice it? > > > The whole cabaceo discussion is academic, at least in North America. > Are you in Australia, Anton? Do people use the cabaceo where you are? > > In North America, there are a few people who try to do it, but it > isn't practiced uniformly. It is't that Western women have a > particular hard time doing it. It's simply hard for anyone to do it > unless everyone does it. > ... > Even if you do want to cabaceo between partners, it's hard to do here. > For one thing, people don't clear the floors for cortinas. That means > partners can't find one another by sight from a distance. Where I am, > there is no reserved seating in milongas and never enough chairs for > everyone in attendance. We just don't conceive of a milonga like the > ... > It's a cultural difference that can't be bridged here. It would > require a country to decide, spontaneously, to be different! > > Valerie Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 From anton at alidas.com.au Tue Nov 24 20:47:45 2009 From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:47:45 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] concerning the embrace and lead In-Reply-To: <007701ca6cb3$cda244f0$68e6ced0$@com.au> References: <789634.94151.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com><628414.79197.qm@web113112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <001101ca6c9f$da7808e0$8f681aa0$@net> <8CC3ABFD31A87AA-5234-131BE@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <007701ca6cb3$cda244f0$68e6ced0$@com.au> Message-ID: <000f01ca6d71$493d0bf0$dbb723d0$@com.au> A question for the ladies. What's more important in a leader, to be assertive and positive or passive and hesitant? I can still vividly recall an incident at my very beginning of tango. A woman considerably more experienced, tried to help by instructing me to be more positive. In my mind I was positive - I was positive that I didn't know what I was doing. This moment was quite pivotal in my tango development. I could easily have elected to do the macho thing and become assertive and positive although I had no skills or knowledge to support it. I could have learned to give women an assertive, positive and crappy dance, instead of a passive, hesitant and crappy dance. I believe I wisely chose the latter, in the belief that in time I would be skilled enough to become assertive and positive. Passive and hesitant, two traits that are an anathema to manliness; traits that women despise in men. Could a man be forgiven for transgressing into manhandling his partner because he couldn't bear the shame whilst waiting to acquire the skills. Of course, there are always knuckle heads like me. Anton From tango22 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 21:00:02 2009 From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:00:02 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Chicho_interview_-_=22Violent_Milonguero?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=22_vs=2E_=22nice_close=A0embrace=22=3A_what_to_do=3F_=28B?= =?iso-8859-1?q?rian_Dunn=29?= Message-ID: <52FECAFF-BE2C-41DD-A1EA-3F239A724CFE@gmail.com> Brian wrote - Chicho is drawing a distinction between "antique tango" as a "violently marked" tango, as opposed to "today's" tango, whose dancers are "able to dance without barely touching one another". The history of tango dance over the decades since the 1920's can be seen from one perspective as a progressive reduction of violence and unnecessary force in relationships between men and women (or leaders and followers, if you prefer) in the dance. This trend will likely continue. Perhaps we can hope those leaders will, over time, improve their connection skills to the point where such characterizations will no longer apply to them. My concern is that they are unaware of the relative violence and roughness in their dance, because they believe they are apparently meeting the observable "requirements" of their chosen "style". Brian, Violent, course, rough Tango in any age is, very simply, bad dancing, caused by lack of skill, ignorance and/or overblown ego. Some men want to take Tango by the throat and beat it into submission. Others get waylaid by figures and/or ego. They will never improve. To dance Tango well, a man must submerge his ego, learn to concentrate on the music and dance in her place, feeling her movement, giving energy and space in equal measure. He must be willing to devote the time to let the Tango come to him. and from Sandhill Crane....... people should dance open-embrace until they know each well enough for close embrace, even if one partner or the other customarily dances in close embrace. In open embrace you can be much more forgiving about technical problems. Rubbish promoted by incompetent teachers. Like - if I learn Three Blind Mice, it will make playing Beethoven easier? Sorry, you have do the hard yards up front if you want to be any good. Best wishes, John From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Nov 24 12:38:26 2009 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tango-L] Map of BsAs Milongas?? Message-ID: <917907.22074.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone know where I might see (online?) a map showing where the best* Milongas are located in BsAs? I was wondering if there was one particular neighborhood that was best* situated near the highest quality Milongas? thks ...would there be someway to put together such a map? ..get the addresses of the best Milongas? * best=best quality authentic Milonguero dancing.