From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Fri May  1 09:31:47 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 09:31:47 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Line of Dance in BA
Message-ID: <059E3EADCC6849338332CE3F52856067@michaelditkoff>

We don't know if Hector gave instructions in Spanish BEFORE the filming 
began. He gave the microphone to the other man who knows English and French
 and that's when the filming began.
>
In other news, those who haven't been to Argentina will see that at this 
traditional milonga the unaccompanied women sit on one side and the
 unaccompanied men sit on the other to facilitate cabeceo.
>
> Michael
> I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Line of Dance in BA

But the instructions were given in English, French and Chinese [I think]; 
nothing in Spanish. What does that tell you? Sounds to me like they're
 trying to educate the tourists.

 Jack
 ----- Original Message ----
I read somebody's blog about explaining the rules at a milonga. Here's the 
link. When is the last time you went to a milonga where somebody
>>> explained the "traffic rules?" The blog pointed out that violaters are 
>>> given yellow penalty cards (like in soccer) and if you get 3, you're 
>>> out. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n0cE_3iUo&feature=related 


From colettehebert at hotmail.com  Fri May  1 14:21:11 2009
From: colettehebert at hotmail.com (Colette Hebert)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 14:21:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely Langman (Posadas) passes away in Buenos Aires
In-Reply-To: <49F7421B.30905@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <49F7421B.30905@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <BLU148-W2525B582CA3A39261B005FA36D0@phx.gbl>


Dear Shahrukh,

 

I was very sorry to learn the about the passed away of Kelly.

Not only I admired her as dancer with her incomparables dances with Facundo, but

also sharing the stage with them in several occasions, was always something very special.

Her human quality as a woman was unique and her absence will be difficult to fill.

All the Festivals and Workshops of the whole world will miss her tremendously. Tangueros also.


Colette 
Tango del Rey Academy
www.tangodelreyacademy.com


(858) 581-1114


Colette Hebert   
Executive Director  
Cell (514)726-5567
colette at tangodelreyacademy.com
 
  


 









 

> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:51:23 -0300
> From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Subject: [Tango-L] Kely Langman (Posadas) passes away in Buenos Aires
> 
> I regret to inform you that Kely Langman, known throughout the Tango 
> world as part of the former partnership of "Facundo & Kely Posadas," 
> passed away during last Sunday night (26/27 April 2009). There are no 
> services, as she was cremated shortly after she passed away.
> 
> Although they had separated some time ago, Kely continued to dance 
> socially until at least as recently as a month ago, despite a continued 
> struggle with cancer, to which she finally succumbed. (She stated her 
> age at that time as 79 to a close friend of hers.)
> 
> She is survived by her two sons Fabian and Eduardo from an earlier marriage.
> 
> There is a brief announcement in Spanish at the top of the page 
> http://www.todotango.com/english/cafe/lamesa.asp?idf=38 to which you may 
> add your words and sentiments if you wish.
> 
> Shahrukh
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_________________________________________________________________
Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621

From don at aymta.org  Fri May  1 16:23:55 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 16:23:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 2009 CMS Argentine Tango Institute
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1241.1241194596.31372.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1241.1241194596.31372.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <49FB5A5B.1080002@aymta.org>

I just got a note from Kristine Wendland <kwendla at LearnLink.Emory.Edu> 
that the deadline for applications for the 2009 July CMS for 
instrumentalists is the end of May.  For those who don't know the 
details, a short quote: "The CMS Tango Institute will intersect tango 
scholarly studies with practical musical and cultural experiences, and 
provide participants with an authentic and holistic tango experience in 
the city of the art forms birth, Buenos Aires. ... The intensive 2-week 
program of study of tango music will integrate tango history, theory, 
practice, and culture, appealing to scholars and musicians who are 
interested in interdisciplinary studies, world music, and popular urban 
forms."  <http://www.music.org/Argentina.html> 

I apologize if this belongs on Tango-A, but I'm not advertising.

Don



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sat May  2 22:40:54 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 23:40:54 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
Message-ID: <49FD0436.2070602@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Oh my, where to begin ...?

> We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos Aires city fathers

Any visions of wise old city fathers dispelling Tango truths should be 
dispensed with at once. Politicians in Argentine, even more so than in 
most of the rest of the world, are widely regarded as scoundrels, and 
anyway the likelihood of their knowing anything about milonga culture in 
Argentina is next to zero.

> Why did they set the minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%?

The link for Law No. 2323 indicates that this took effect in May 2007, 
and NOT during the golden age or anything like that, so this is a 
CONTEMPORARY definition. After the Croma?on disaster, the knee-jerk 
reaction of the government was to over-regulate all dance clubs (though 
undoubtedly some of the new regulations were needed). Milonga organizers 
banded together (people like Omar Viola of Parakultural, for example, 
have a strong business interest in Tango, and tend to be politically 
active when needed), correctly pointing out that the typical milonga 
crowd is not at all a rowdy bunch (notwithstanding reports of occasional 
fist-fights), and besides Tango is a cultural phenomenon (a "national 
treasure") and should be nurtured by the government and not stifled. 
While I do not know this for a fact (though easy enough to find out), I 
have no doubt that this law was a direct or indirect result of that effort.

My guess is that the parts that refer to the definition of a milonga 
were crafted by the milonga organizers on the "citizens' committee" and 
the parts about the more mundane (but commercially important) issues of 
table spacing, fire extinguisher locations, etc., probably hashed out 
between the bureaucrats and the milonga organizers.

Getting back to the 70%, it's not that some wizened Argentine culture 
god decided that 70% tango/milonga/vals makes a milonga. It's simple 
arithmetic:

- At most milongas, more so the traditional ones, there will be one 
tanda every two hours at least (if not more frequently) of non-tango 
music. This may be rock, jazz (a sort of ragtime/balboa music to which 
people dance a sort-of foxtrot), paso doble (not much in common with the 
ballroom version), chacarera/folkloric (like zamba/chamam?), tropical 
(Latin rhythms, loosely speaking), and so forth. If you assume even the 
1 tanda per 2 hours, that's 10% (at 5 tandas per hour).

- Then you have cortinas that are non-tango--they are 1 minute long, 
sometimes more. That's 8% of a 12-minute tanda, 12% of an 8-minute tanda 
(e.g., the 3x milonga or 3x vals tandas). Call it 10% in round numbers.

That's 20% non-tango music right there. 10% provides a reasonable margin 
on top of this number, ergo 30%. It's really not more complicated than 
that. The number was CREATED to fit what milongas currently do, NOT the 
other way around, and it's actually pretty realistic. There was a time 
when the federal police were actually harassing milonga organizers 
trying to enforce the law and since a typical Argentine cop knows 
nothing about milongas, he hears a cortina or a chacarera and says, 
"Aha! Not a Milonga! I'm going to write up a violation!" The 30% 
provides ample margin.

> the fact 
> is that virtually all milongas in Buenos Aires play 100% traditional tango music.

Absolutely not true, though if you exclude cortinas, there are SOME that 
do, like El Beso and Porte?o y Bailarin (which have a large 
non-Argentine crowed, especially Porte?o). It depends on the organizer 
mostly, the DJ secondarily, the size of the place, and the crowd that 
goes there.

>> There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the
>> >music is tango (milonga and vals).
> Fascinating. Was this generally known before I posted the law extract a few
> days ago?

Generally known to members of this list--probably not. But the now 
defunct baile at Hotel Bauen was an example--they tend to get an 
all-Argentine older crowd that just want to (gosh!) go out for a fun 
night of dancing. It's a dying phenomenon just like the traditional 
ballroom dances in the US (now largely replaced by collegiate dancesport 
team events and captive studio "parties").

> La Viruta and La Marshall are apparent exceptions to this. (I didn't
> hear tango fusion or non-tango music when I was at La Viruta in 2007.

La Viruta does play a VERY long folklore tanda of chacareras, zamba and 
chamam?. Also a tanda of rock at the end of the milonga after the final 
"La Cumparsita" while they're cleaning up (many people dance). Depending 
on Horacio's mood, sometimes other random non-tango stuff in the middle 
of the milonga. Haven't been there for a while, but as of about a year 
ago, that was still true.

And the law is silent on whether techno-tango music is REAL tango music, 
whether gay milongas count as milongas (or whether a tango must be 
danced between exactly one man and exactly one woman ... or at least 70% 
of the time :-)) and so forth. Thank heaven for cultural change: it 
keeps the politicians in business and the Tango listservs humming.

Shahrukh

From Crrtango at aol.com  Sun May  3 05:20:51 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 05:20:51 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
Message-ID: <c9b.26ed6b95.372ebbf3@aol.com>

<<Getting back to the 70%, it's not that some wizened Argentine culture
god decided that 70% tango/milonga/vals makes a milonga. It's simple
arithmetic:>>

It also appears to be even simpler arithmetic based on the actual number of 
the different types of songs that exist, and not any cultural or social 
decree.   Although I don't have any statistical information from the recording 
industry (perhaps the archives of EMI or RCA Victor would), the number of 
standard tangos that exist far exceed the number of waltzes or milongas.   
Anyone who has been a DJ or tried to set up tandas soon realizes that if they 
program too many waltzes or milongas they will run out of them long before 
they exhaust the tangos, maybe not in a single evening but certainly over 
time.   Even if it was "decreed," notwithstanding the interjection of non-tango 
music forms, perhaps it is no more than just a by-product of the reality of 
what's available.

Charles


**************
The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 
2 Easy Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222376998x1201454298/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;
hmpgID=62&amp;bcd=May5309AvgfooterNO62)

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May  3 18:35:24 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] an Enlightened Curriculum
Message-ID: <972429.85324.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Watching this couple dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSOj8lou2i4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV7ZTpXcgH0
and then viewing the points of importance in their teaching.
http://www.truetango.com/homeing0.htm
I would gladly take classes from them and look forward to the day when I can.
I envite you (teachers included) to post class descriptions that wet the appetite
or show what you feel is THE important things to master in Tango.
(Don't miss clicking on the pages for; Tango Lessons, Personal Reflexcions 










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Mon May  4 20:04:28 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 21:04:28 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Preliminary Review of "Loca! Milonga" (Palermo Soho,
	Buenos Aires)
Message-ID: <49FF828C.4040604@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Just found out about this new milonga, that has opened a couple of 
months ago in Palermo Soho, called "Loca! Milonga," so I went last night 
to check it out. Since I got there about 1 am and it just runs till 2 
am, it's based on a limited exposure, but here goes anyway. Others who 
have been there, or go there, might want to add their experiences.

The place is an "artsy" restaurant/bar called Chalmers Club (pictures of 
the restaurant at www.chalmersclub.com.ar, though the milonga website is 
www.locamilonga.blogspot.com) that seems to have a decent menu. You can 
order from the full menu during the milonga, with separate seating in 
the pleasant bar area, till about 11 pm, after which only drinks are 
available. The milonga rents the main dining room, which has a stone 
floor, and is pretty large. (Independently of the milonga, the 
restaurant also has "Jazz Nights" on Saturday in May, with their full 
menu, which you can check out as well.)

Crowd was pretty light--enough people for a good time, not enough to 
judge navigation skill (or require much for that matter), younger crowd 
in the 20s and 30s mostly, I would guess 70% Argentines, 30% foreigners.

Music, at least for the last hour that I was there, was mostly guardia 
nueva (modern orchestra renditions of classics, though not "nuevo"), but 
I suspect it was largely classic during the first hours.

I had decent-to-very-good dances with everyone I danced with (sample 
size of 4 ...), and I danced all the tandas. Minimal use of cabeceo at 
this milonga as it's rather informal and I got the impression that many 
of the attendees knew each other at least casually, e.g., from the 
classes preceding the milonga. (If you insist on strict cabeceo you're 
probably limited yourself here, as at many other milongas/pr?cticas with 
these demographics.)

There is usually a demo/show by one couple (I came after it was 
over)--there is a video of one on the website (rather "stagey" dancing 
for my tastes).

Summary: Good bet for a not-too-late Sunday night, but they do stop at 2 
a.m. sharp even though there were more than enough people that they 
could have kept going (probably a limitation of the arrangement with the 
restaurant). It's a nice space, and the milonga has the potential to be 
more interesting as it gets known and gets better attendance. (It's 
possible there was less of a crowd last night because it was the end of 
a long weekend in Argentina.)

And as for the "Loca!" part, nothing about it seemed especially wild and 
crazy ... maybe that's in the works? :-)

Information:

Website: www.locamilonga.blogspot.com
Address: Niceto Vega 5248 (at Godoy Cruz), Palermo Soho
Reservations: 15-6284-4568, 15-6332-0448 (Marcela and Demian, the 
organizers)
Hours: Sundays, 10 pm - 2 am

Shahrukh

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat May  9 19:49:22 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:49:22 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>

I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:

Back ocho
Low Boleo
Walking
Ocho Cortado
Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)

I've read messages on Tango A about workshops and festivals for colgaldas, valcadas, sacadas and other figures ending in "adas." It made me wonder how many figures do I need for a good dance.

What figures are missing from the above list you feel are necessary?

How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals and workshops into your dance?

It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.

Michael
Washington, DC
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

From tango.society at gmail.com  Sat May  9 20:13:00 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:13:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <cff24c340905091713p34d14445wf42b47ea5038ebcd@mail.gmail.com>

MIchael,

>From what I've observed, that's about right.

The low boleo isn't needed, so

- Walking
- Back ocho
- Ocho Cortado
- Giro

will do just fine.

But don't forget a good embrace and good musicality.

Ron


On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
>
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
>
> I've read messages on Tango A about workshops and festivals for colgaldas, valcadas, sacadas and other figures ending in "adas." It made me wonder how many figures do I need for a good dance.
>
> What figures are missing from the above list you feel are necessary?
>
> How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals and workshops into your dance?
>
> It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat May  9 23:30:39 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <338825.98020.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Provided they're gentle, subtle and led mostly with the torso, 
I think Sacadas are quite popular in BA. But, as Ron has written,?
the major elements are the embrace and musicality.

Jack


> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> 
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I 
> observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
> 
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
> 



      


From sl at stevelittler.com  Sun May 10 01:13:42 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 01:13:42 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <4A066286.60302@stevelittler.com>

How about the cruzada (cross), or the little cross (half-signal)? (Or is 
that already considered in Ocho Cortado?)

I usually end back ochos with a cross or forward/backward boleo.

Steve
>   

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun May 10 01:51:32 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 22:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4A066286.60302@stevelittler.com>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
	<4A066286.60302@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <912738.26508.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


True! The Front Cross, or Cruzada, is one of the 
most beautiful steps in Tango! Especially following 
a Low Boleo. Exquisite. 

Jack



> From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
> 
> How about the cruzada (cross), > 



      


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sun May 10 06:45:22 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 06:45:22 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0905100345y25150898m2f0d42fd5810fe43@mail.gmail.com>

You don't *need* most of the ***adas. However, you *can* incorporate them to
spice up the dance.
Specifically:
- volcadas - I use them sporadically (at most once per song, usually <=1 per
tanda) if I feel the connection with the partner is especially strong; when
they work, they are fun!
- sacadas - there's one I especially enjoy, which is when you lead a giro to
your left, sacada on the open step to her right, therefore her left foot is
sent into a nice circle around her axis. The rest (and there are tens, if
not hundreds, of them, I know a guy, Miles, who came up with a
classification system, he's getting to a 1000 different ones now) are not
quite necessary;
- soltadas - I took one class at the festival. While I don't care much about
the soltadas themselves, the build-up to the one of them they showed
(underarm turn that brings the partner closer to you), when done at the
right moment at the end of the song, makes for a great finale, so I am
grateful for that class as well.

Sergey

From tango.society at gmail.com  Sun May 10 09:39:03 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 08:39:03 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4A066286.60302@stevelittler.com>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
	<4A066286.60302@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340905100639j77988fdatd9e76f8744e5f480@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com> wrote:
> How about the cruzada (cross), or the little cross (half-signal)? (Or is
> that already considered in Ocho Cortado?)
>
> I usually end back ochos with a cross or forward/backward boleo.

The terminology isn't always consistent. The linear walk to the cross,
where the woman crosses her left foot back in front of her right, is
occasionally seen as an exit from back ochos (crossed feet), but
rarely in parallel feet in Buenos Aires (as in the '8-count basic').
The cross coming from a woman's forward walk, pivot clockwise on right
foot and cross left in front of right, pivot counterclockwise is
sometimes called the 'ocho milonguero'. This could result as well as a
rebound from a boleo or rock step. These are seen often in Buenos
Aires milongas, although I believe the ocho cortado is by far the most
common sequence leading to the woman's cross.

Ron

From tango at tangodesalon.de  Sun May 10 13:18:14 2009
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:18:14 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <AAA9A403-62FC-4A4C-937E-10D407B5288B@tangodesalon.de>

How many figures do you need to be a good dancer?

In my opinion? NOT ONE STEP!

You can be an excellent dancer, if you just walk forward - provided  
you do it musically, connected to the partner with a nice embrace.

If you are furthermore able to communicate a shift of weight in place,  
a sidestep and a backstep, this is even better!
If you are even capable of communicationg a pivot and of  
distinguishing between the parallel and the crossed system this is a  
big plus.

But you don't need it to be a good dancer. It just gives you a bigger  
repertoire.

I've danced with a lot of good dancers, who have a quite limited  
repertoire and with even more bad dancers with a huge repertoire! Some  
may find that boring, but I'm searching for the quality within a  
single movement.

But just now, I prefer to not dance at all, but to rest my feet after  
three days of teaching in Oslo. ;-)

Have a nice day,

Melina



MELINA SEDO & DETLEF ENGEL
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669







From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Sun May 10 21:50:06 2009
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:50:06 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Line of Dance in BA
In-Reply-To: <059E3EADCC6849338332CE3F52856067@michaelditkoff>
References: <059E3EADCC6849338332CE3F52856067@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <3eff99210905101850v67328738tdef8e29ee881615e@mail.gmail.com>

hola
the rules are printed in spanish, italian, mandarin, french, japanese,
english, and greek, and are posted at the entrance (ticket booth) before you
actually enter the dance space. Hector will only read them out during the
milonga if he feels there is need to (needless to say, they get read out a
bit more often during festival seasons :) - CITA, PTW et al). He or
Carlos(the DJ) will read them out in Spanish, before passing on the mike to
someone else to read them out in other languages

Hector is very 'present' during the milonga. He watches everything

I remember my partner telling me about one particular incident: Hector was a
bit anxious throughout the night. At one point, he sat next to my partner,
who asked him if everything was OK. In typical argenitne drama fashion,
Hector told him that 'no, everything was not ok - there's a couple over
there (pointing to the centre of the dance floor) causing a 'quilombo'.'
Sure enough, there was a couple in the middle of the dancefloor, criss
crossing the floor, doing boleos, and essentially taking up the space that
would otherwise have satisfied 4-5 couples.  As soon as that tanda ended,
the rules were read out - in Spanish, english, italian and japanese


'mejor sentada bien que bailando mal'
-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Sun May 10 22:35:36 2009
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:35:36 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <4C34E062-34A6-41B1-95B8-74793C9734A6@gmail.com>

Melina wrote:
> How many figures do you need to be a good dancer? In my opinion? NOT  
> ONE STEP!

Indeed! No figures. Period. (begs the question, what is a figure, but  
good rule)
>  You can be an excellent dancer, if you just walk forward - provided  
> you do it musically, connected to the partner with a nice embrace.

But... do you really just walk "forward"? And, not turning whatsoever?

-joe

From al at sgi.com  Mon May 11 04:02:33 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:02:33 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <4A07DB99.4050603@sgi.com>

Michael wrote:
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
> 
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)

We also call'em giros - you need to involve a meridian (or two) somewhere as well ;).

From bertil36 at hotmail.com  Mon May 11 04:10:26 2009
From: bertil36 at hotmail.com (Bertil Nestorius)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:10:26 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <4A07DB99.4050603@sgi.com>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
	<4A07DB99.4050603@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <COL108-W313F332CB94A3D3AB18AC3CE630@phx.gbl>


For me a molinette is what the woman/follower dance when the couple is doing a Giro.
That means molinette is short for back-side-front.

Best regards,
Bertil

> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:02:33 +0200
> From: al at sgi.com
> To: tangomaniac at cavtel.net
> CC: tango-l at mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
> 
> Michael wrote:
> > I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
> > 
> > Back ocho
> > Low Boleo
> > Walking
> > Ocho Cortado
> > Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
> 
> We also call'em giros - you need to involve a meridian (or two) somewhere as well ;).
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Mon May 11 06:18:21 2009
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 03:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <COL108-W313F332CB94A3D3AB18AC3CE630@phx.gbl>
References: <4268951B75A4422998DC9EDDDC7E0E33@michaelditkoff>
	<4A07DB99.4050603@sgi.com>
	<COL108-W313F332CB94A3D3AB18AC3CE630@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <147882.8342.qm@web32002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Terminology I use when teaching, and I do this without claiming that it is correct or anything like that, purpose being just to be able identify and talk about things we do, is "molinete" for the case when the axis of rotation is in one partner's leg/side-of-the-body and "giro" when the axis of rotation is between the partners. Since we need terms to address things we discuss/teach, this terminology has served me well, right or wrong.

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================




________________________________
From: Bertil Nestorius <bertil36 at hotmail.com>
To: "tango-l at mit.edu" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 4:10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?


For me a molinette is what the woman/follower dance when the couple is doing a Giro.
That means molinette is short for back-side-front.

Best regards,
Bertil

From tango at tangodesalon.de  Mon May 11 12:27:02 2009
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:27:02 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1003.1242058400.25663.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1003.1242058400.25663.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7AB7243C-83CD-4763-96BA-60696A37C26B@tangodesalon.de>

>

Hi Joe and all!


> Indeed! No figures. Period. (begs the question, what is a figure, but
> good rule)
>> You can be an excellent dancer, if you just walk forward - provided
>> you do it musically, connected to the partner with a nice embrace.
>
> But... do you really just walk "forward"? And, not turning whatsoever?

Yep. I mean that. Someone can be a good dancer with a very limited  
repertoire, but, as I said:

"If you are furthermore able to communicate a shift of weight in place,
a sidestep and a backstep, this is even better!
If you are even capable of communicationg a pivot and of
distinguishing between the parallel and the crossed system this is a
big plus."

So take the Pivot and maybe the mangement between parallel/crossed  
system and you can improvise any possible turn out of the elements  
(steps & privots). You still don't need a "figure" (pre-defined step).

;-)

Good day,

Melina




From daniel at kaesmayr.net  Mon May 11 12:41:30 2009
From: daniel at kaesmayr.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Dr._Daniel_K=E4smayr=22?=)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:41:30 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1003.1242058400.25663.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1003.1242058400.25663.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <39C1ED99-98BB-4706-BB66-93F8590C86AD@kaesmayr.net>

Melina,

you could go even one step (sic) further: you only need the connection  
with your partner, the music and the floor.
Everything else is just decoration. In order to be a good dancer no  
externally visible movement is necessary.

It's just (more?) fun.

Daniel, fan of simple tango.

PS: Of course, there's quite a bit of things you need to get that  
connection.
PPS: And then there is a lot of things you don't need for it.

PPPS: And even more things you need to *not* have.

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Mon May 11 13:03:28 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:03:28 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

 
Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas?   Please show
them to me.
>From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
Here is my analysis:
Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
involving full weight shift  for follower in tango.   Front cross, back
cross, and open.   They can be done with two different feet. So thats a
total of six positions available to sacada.    For each step of
follower, lets say right open step, the leader  could do 4 different
sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left, back
sac with right or left.  (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety of
one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.) 
So that makes 24 for leader.   The follower could be led to do the same
to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
-Martin Nussbaum 


From 2tango99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 15:17:19 2009
From: 2tango99 at gmail.com (michael)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:17:19 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need? / no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN
Message-ID: <e7bfb9e80905111217l55dea70alc71516dc0865e219@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals
> and workshops into your dance?
>
> It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison
> Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC


Just down the road in Hopkins, MN we had our monthly Tango Society of
Minnesota milonga last Saturday night, with great music by DJ Christopher
Everett. Stop in next month.

Michael,
Minneaplois, MN

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Mon May 11 17:24:27 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:24:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>

This is the beginning, but he was going into more and more details.
For example, if I remember correctly, instead of your "4 different sacadas"
he would count 6 - L/R foot, done with front cross, back cross and open.
Also he would count an extra variation done with both feet at the same time
- it looked like a jump that was so out of place in tango. I have never ever
seen him or anyone else doing that jumpy sacada with both feet, but it was
included for the purpose of classification. I got lost somewhere there, but
there were more and more minute variations that were bringing the total
count to hundreds.

Sergey

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov>wrote:

>
> Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas?   Please show
> them to me.
> From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
> Here is my analysis:
> Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
> involving full weight shift  for follower in tango.   Front cross, back
> cross, and open.   They can be done with two different feet. So thats a
> total of six positions available to sacada.    For each step of
> follower, lets say right open step, the leader  could do 4 different
> sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left, back
> sac with right or left.  (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
> So that makes 24 for leader.   The follower could be led to do the same
> to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
> -Martin Nussbaum
>

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Mon May 11 18:12:48 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCC0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

 
You are double counting some of these. For example,  on her right open
step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is open,
if you use your left foot, you are crossed.  
Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time.  I
actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube. 
But why stop there?  How about also counting using one or both hands to
do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ?   If you
enter head first, does that count as another sacada?  What if you dont
use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada with
your rear?    

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue May 12 00:54:48 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3538.45156.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


OK, I'll bite.

For the receiver,?there are?6 ?positions; front cross, back cross and opening, 
all on either right foot or left foot.

For the giver, there a 6 ways - forward, back and side, with either foot..

That's 36 possibilities. For man or lady being either giver or receiver, that's 72.

Finally, I like to separate linear and circular figures. A Sacada during a walk 
feels very different to a Sacada during a Giro..That would bring the total to 144.

I suppose it's possible to distinguish between light and strong Sacadas
as the receiver's leg would react differently. That would make 288.

I'm not even gonna consider a double-foot Sacada :-).

Jack



> From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com>
> 
> This is the beginning, but he was going into more and more details.
> 


      



From petronio at adam.com.au  Tue May 12 04:41:59 2009
From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 18:11:59 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <AFC4D2D81FC14F689ADB0D4D021BD7F3@BOBA63C8FE0B6>

I certainly agree with Melina on this one. 

"I've danced with a lot of good dancers, who have a quite limited  
repertoire and with even more bad dancers with a huge repertoire! Some  
may find that boring, but I'm searching for the quality within a  
single movement."

It seems that the discussion about the number of figures (however small that number may be) can have an unintended consequence. It may distract some readers from what is the essence of the dance. 

As a woman in tango, the feeling of being transported in the dance is absolutely the result of quality of movement, and my partner's connection with me & the music, certainly not the number of "figures" he may be leading.

Thanks for the thought-provoking topics!

Patricia Petronio
Tango Sal?n Adelaide
www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com

From bertil36 at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 06:36:37 2009
From: bertil36 at hotmail.com (Bertil Nestorius)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:36:37 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCC0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCC0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <COL108-W352A91778336015A38F09ECE600@phx.gbl>


Here is a dance when Chicho is doing the sacada with both feet, he of course is one of the few that actaully can get away with it.

You find it about 2:35 in this video

Bertil

> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
> From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov
> To: syarzhuk at gmail.com
> CC: tango-l at mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
> 
>  
> You are double counting some of these. For example,  on her right open
> step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is open,
> if you use your left foot, you are crossed.  
> Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time.  I
> actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube. 
> But why stop there?  How about also counting using one or both hands to
> do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ?   If you
> enter head first, does that count as another sacada?  What if you dont
> use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada with
> your rear?    
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_________________________________________________________________
More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/

From bertil36 at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 08:33:29 2009
From: bertil36 at hotmail.com (Bertil Nestorius)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:33:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] FW:  1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <1A934B8C-C8C5-468B-8B38-F95AD092C045@web.de>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCC0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<COL108-W352A91778336015A38F09ECE600@phx.gbl>
	<1A934B8C-C8C5-468B-8B38-F95AD092C045@web.de> 
Message-ID: <COL108-W32166CF562CA983AD1C772CE600@phx.gbl>



sorry here it is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ3wgo9jLc

> From: ralph.hangleiter at web.de
> To: bertil36 at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
> Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:06:14 +0200
> 
> Bertil - you forgot to add the link...
> Am 12.05.2009 um 12:36 schrieb Bertil Nestorius:
> 
>>
>> Here is a dance when Chicho is doing the sacada with both feet, he  
>> of course is one of the few that actaully can get away with it.
>>
>> You find it about 2:35 in this video
>>
>> Bertil
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
>>> From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov
>>> To: syarzhuk at gmail.com
>>> CC: tango-l at mit.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many  
>>> figures
>>>
>>>
>>> You are double counting some of these. For example,  on her right  
>>> open
>>> step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is  
>>> open,
>>> if you use your left foot, you are crossed.
>>> Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time.  I
>>> actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube.
>>> But why stop there?  How about also counting using one or both  
>>> hands to
>>> do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ?   If  
>>> you
>>> enter head first, does that count as another sacada?  What if you  
>>> dont
>>> use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada  
>>> with
>>> your rear?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tango-L mailing list
>>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?.
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Tue May 12 11:28:58 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:28:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>


 I guess I am not as dogmatic a purist as you are, Manu, in that I will
accept soltadas or embrace changes as part of tango.  Yes, the 4th
sacada in question may require a release of the embrace, or maybe an
overhead or behind the back salsa- type hand shift, since the leader
spins in the opposite direction from the follower.  These are referred
to by Gustavo Naveira as "fourth sacadas" and by others as "inverted
sacadas."  If you want your nuevo tango to look more pure, it is
preferable to use soltada rather than borrow an overhead hand shift from
another dance.  Its just the pre lead right before the soltada has to be
very clear so the follower knows where to step when there is no embrace.


-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Ruiz [mailto:manuel.ruiz at skynet.be] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:13 AM
To: Nussbaum, Martin; tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures

Martin wrote:
"For each step of
follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left, back
sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of 
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.) So that makes 24

> for leader. "

I believe you can only do 3 different "traditional" sacadas for the
"giver" 
instead of 4 to the trailing foot of the follower since the turning
direction is already determined by the follower step. If you're both
turning clockwise that would be for the leader:
    - open (forward or side) with left (1);
    - front cross with right (2);
    - back cross with right (3);

You counted:
    - forward with left (1);
    - backward with left;
    - forward with right (2);
    - backward with right (3);
correctly stating that
    - side with left is structurally the same as forward with left
    - side with right (as far as that is possible) is structurally the
same as forward with right


I think "backward with left" is only realistic if you combine it with a 
soltada or something. Maybe not a "pure" tango move.

The "basic" total would then be:
(2 dancers) x (3 receiver steps) x (2 receiver feet) x (3 "giver" steps)
= 
36 instead of 48

Regards,

Manuel

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:03 PM
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Cc: <syarzhuk at gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures

>
> Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas?   Please show
> them to me.
>>From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
> Here is my analysis:
> Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
> involving full weight shift  for follower in tango.   Front cross,
back
> cross, and open.   They can be done with two different feet. So thats
a
> total of six positions available to sacada.    For each step of
> follower, lets say right open step, the leader  could do 4 different
> sacadas to her departing left foot;  front sac with right or left,
back
> sac with right or left.  (Side sacadas by leader are just a  variety
of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
> So that makes 24 for leader.   The follower could be led to do the
same
> to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
> -Martin Nussbaum
>


From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Tue May 12 20:03:00 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
Message-ID: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Pat Petronio writes:
>As a woman in tango, the feeling of being transported in 
>the dance is absolutely the result of quality of movement, 
>and my partner's connection with me & the music

What is good quality movement?  What is bad quality 
movement?  How can you tell if your own movement is high 
quality or low?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so, 
how do you train people to do high quality movement?

What is connection with someone?  What is the difference 
between good connection and bad connection?  How can you 
tell if you're giving good connection?  Can people be 
trained to do this?  If so, how do you train people to do 
good connection?

What is connection with music?  What is the difference 
between good connection and ban connection or no 
connection?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so, how 
do you train people to do good connection with the music?


      

From garybarn at ozemail.com.au  Tue May 12 20:32:18 2009
From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:32:18 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <D955F474-FAEF-4F92-ACB7-130FF35A3D9F@ozemail.com.au>

Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.

There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one  just  
after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with  
De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny  
one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was  
hardly room to move.

And that's just a start. There's probably millions!

GB

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue May 12 20:54:49 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:54:49 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu><DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL><B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong><DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<D955F474-FAEF-4F92-ACB7-130FF35A3D9F@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <FA9EAE46904D4DDE971309AB24B48818@michaelditkoff>

To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back. These messages remind me 
of a traffic circle. There's only ONE traffic circle at Columbus Circle in 
New York. You can enter it from 8th Avenue and Broadway northbound, 59th 
Street westbound,  and exit on Broadway soutbound and northbound. Regardless 
of where you enter and exit, there's only ONE traffic circle.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary" <garybarn at ozemail.com.au>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures


> Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.
>
> There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one  just
> after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with
> De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny
> one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was
> hardly room to move.
>
> And that's just a start. There's probably millions!
>
> GB
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 


From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 12 22:04:35 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:04:35 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
In-Reply-To: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905121904w6d5b7988l79f7e46bc79a93e0@mail.gmail.com>

Again, a very very subjective subject....

Is strong and fast good?  Or slow and smooth?

All dependant upon taste and familiarity.

I know some amazing looking dancers that love firm hard movements to give
definition and others that need a breath of air past their cheek and they
will respond....

One you enjoy I suspect will be the quality that you are looking for....

2009/5/13 Ming Mar <ming_mar at yahoo.com>

>
> Pat Petronio writes:
> >As a woman in tango, the feeling of being transported in
> >the dance is absolutely the result of quality of movement,
> >and my partner's connection with me & the music
>
> What is good quality movement?  What is bad quality
> movement?  How can you tell if your own movement is high
> quality or low?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so,
> how do you train people to do high quality movement?
>
> What is connection with someone?  What is the difference
> between good connection and bad connection?  How can you
> tell if you're giving good connection?  Can people be
> trained to do this?  If so, how do you train people to do
> good connection?
>
> What is connection with music?  What is the difference
> between good connection and ban connection or no
> connection?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so, how
> do you train people to do good connection with the music?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 12 22:05:02 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:05:02 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
In-Reply-To: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905121905x732a93b4g3721043d9dcd9619@mail.gmail.com>

Again, a very very subjective subject....

Is strong and fast good?  Or slow and smooth?

All dependant upon taste and familiarity.

I know some amazing looking dancers that love firm hard movements to
give definition and others that need a breath of air past their cheek
and they will respond....

One you enjoy I suspect will be the quality that you are looking for....

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 12 22:06:45 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:06:45 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <FA9EAE46904D4DDE971309AB24B48818@michaelditkoff>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<D955F474-FAEF-4F92-ACB7-130FF35A3D9F@ozemail.com.au>
	<FA9EAE46904D4DDE971309AB24B48818@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905121906h3970e5car1ada501d022d545e@mail.gmail.com>

So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??

2009/5/13 Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>:
> To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back.

From Crrtango at aol.com  Tue May 12 22:29:16 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:29:16 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
Message-ID: <bd2.40d4293e.373b8a7c@aol.com>

I don't know your dancing level, but if you are a beginning dancer, these 
are not things that you should be concerned about.?Tango is difficult and 
takes time and practice to just get a good foundation. That takes enough 
concentration and effort to keep you busy without worrying about whether you 
connect or not.   And even if you aren't a beginner, you can't just find the 
answers to these questions as if they were math formulas.? First you have to 
learn to dance well (and hopefully learn from someone with good technique.)   
Connection to music or your partner are not things that can be taught, they 
are something you feel when you are comfortable enough with your dancing to 
be able to relax and not have to be think about how to do steps correctly and 
in turn be able to appreciate the nuances of the music.? If you spend your 
time looking for the answers to these questions as if they something finite 
and concrete you will never learn to dance.?Someone might be able to teach 
you quality of movement because that is often about having good technique 
(but not exclusively and even then it supposes a certain level of expertise) 
but the connection to your partner or the music comes from within you and is 
more of an emotional feeling.?If someone claims that they can teach you 
connection, you should find another teacher.

Charles


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 
2 easy steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322936x1201367173/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;
hmpgID=115&amp;bcd=Mayfooter51209NO115)

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed May 13 00:32:35 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 04:32:35 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
Message-ID: <SNT115-W63A895FEABA4C8CE10D75997610@phx.gbl>


Connection in Argentine Tango (IMO) is dual, physical and spiritual.
 
The physical connection develops and improves as you learn the rich and intricate technique of the dance. 
 
 The better your technique, the better your posture, the more precise your movements and placement of your feet, as well as more relaxed and comfortable the embrace.  
 
Connection with the music is achieved by listening to it, as you listen your understanding of the music and the rhythm becomes deeper, you start distinguishing the different instruments and their conversation.
 
 You may develop connection to the music without dancing; but when and if you dance your dance will become more harmonious and relaxed.
 
The Spiritual connection to your partner and to the music develops as you dedicate time to learn to dance well,
in harmony with yourself, your partner, the music and all the other dancers on the floor. It happens slowly, with time and appear when you do not expect it.
 
At certain point your physical and spiritual relationship to your partner become intermingled, she surrenders to you and you surrender to her embrace. 
 
Then as you dance, the music and the other dancers seem to quiet down, you can still hear the music as the floor becomes absent, you go floating around the room, in perfect harmony till the music stops and you take her back to her table, you have a warm, peaceful, sensation in your chest, and you know that after a while you will be looking for her eyes to invite her to dance again,...and she will accept with a smile .
 
BEst regards, Sergio 
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed May 13 07:31:30 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 04:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
In-Reply-To: <bd2.40d4293e.373b8a7c@aol.com>
References: <bd2.40d4293e.373b8a7c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <349832.88275.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


For once, I completely disagree with Charles.

My teacher likes to tell beginners that an 8-week beginner course 
is ALL about developing a connection with your partner. Until you 
do that, you're dancing alone and that just isn't Tango at all.

Any good teacher should be able to connect with a female student 
quite quickly and she'll then know what a good connection is and 
she'll be able to dance Tango with any good leader. For the men, 
I agree that it's a lot more difficult but it's still what he should be 
aiming for from the very first set of?lessons. 

What's the alternative - just learn some steps?

Tango without a connection is nothing. 

Jack


?



> From: "Crrtango at aol.com" Crrtango at aol.com

>?
?>Tango is difficult and 
> takes time and practice to just get a good foundation. That takes enough 
> concentration and effort to keep you busy without worrying about whether you 
> connect or not.? 
> 


      



From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed May 13 09:11:32 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:11:32 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango connection
Message-ID: <d21.4fdd47e9.373c2104@aol.com>

Jack, 

First, we don't disagree at all about the importance of the connection.   
Feeling a connection is one of the rewards that comes from improving and 
perfecting your dancing. Second, plenty of people claim that they can teach 
connection and always have...that doesn't mean they can.   You may think you 
have learned connection but what do your partners think?   A one-sided 
connection is an oxymoron. The only connection is between your money and the 
teachers wallet. I think they should be ashamed for making such an outrageous 
claim, especially to a beginner.

Charles


**************
Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after 
instant savings! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221972443x1201442012/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819441%3B36680237%3Bi
)

From shop at tango-argentino.info  Wed May 13 09:20:52 2009
From: shop at tango-argentino.info (www.tango-argentino.info)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:20:52 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1225.1242155791.8123.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1225.1242155791.8123.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4A0AC934.4540.8DB76B@shop.tango-argentino.info>

Hi Michael,


you need all steps, as much as you like, it's not that you have to 
dance them all, but you need them for to study, for improvising, to 
become free, so that you can dance, walk in any direction, you can 
turn to the right, to the left, you can dance voleos, sacadas etc etc 
in nearly every position YOU like. 
to dance like the great dancers like Lampazo, El Negro Portaleo, 
Gavito, or walk like Juan Carlos Copes, that way of dancing you don't 
learn by only walking. It's not that easy. It's like art, and to 
dance art you have to leave away, you see what you don't dance, thats 
contents. All famous milongueros, we all love how they dance, they 
studied hundreds of figures. Picaso could paint everything in detail 
but with one line he painted his famous bull, because he studied 
every detail to know what is the sintesis, its similar with to dance 
tango, the more you can the less you need....
The new generation milongueros Rivarola, Veron, Chicho, Naveira, 
Zotto (Miguel) and other good dancers of this generation they all 
studied with maestros who teached figures (Todaro, Lampazo, Miguel, 
Pepito, etc etc). In the salon you don't see them dancing figures but 
they can dance in any direction, in every situation they dance, 
because there bodies are used to move in all directions, to improvise 
in every situation...so you will become free to dance your tango.


regards,

Ricardo
"El holand?s"




Ricardo & Rotraut
Tango Argentino
http://www.tango-argentino.info
http://www.tango-dvd.net


From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed May 13 11:11:32 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <885701.27503.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 5/13/09, www.tango-argentino.info <shop at tango-argentino.info> wrote:

> you need all steps, as much as you like, it's not that you
> have to dance them all, but you need them for to study, for
> improvising, to become free, so that you can dance, walk in any direction, you can turn to the right, to the left, you can dance voleos,
> sacadas etc etc in nearly every position YOU like. 

I agree with you, Ricardo.  I know that I have much better flexibility for having learned more complex elements even if I hardly ever use them.  And that has given me freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of spirit.

I like steps.
I like the creativity in how my partners transition into steps.
I like it when I "invent" a movement I feel is mine.
I like being able to express a connection or the music in a number of different ways.
I like being able to dance adventuruously, seductively, playfully, sadly, or quietly with my partner.
I like seeing the personality or mood of my partner come through in his/her dance.

If everyone danced the same, well, how boring would that be?


Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From sl at stevelittler.com  Wed May 13 13:05:31 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:05:31 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
In-Reply-To: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A0AFDDB.6010808@stevelittler.com>

Ming Mar wrote:
> Pat Petronio writes:
>   
>> As a woman in tango, the feeling of being transported in 
>> the dance is absolutely the result of quality of movement, 
>> and my partner's connection with me & the music
>>     
>
> What is good quality movement?  What is bad quality 
> movement?  How can you tell if your own movement is high 
> quality or low?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so, 
> how do you train people to do high quality movement?
>   
Yes. Dance with your teacher or an intermediate partner in a private 
lesson, practice or practica environment and get immediate feedback on 
what you are doing and you can be trained. It can be discouraging at 
first, but the rewards are worth it.
> What is connection with someone?  What is the difference 
> between good connection and bad connection?  How can you 
> tell if you're giving good connection?  Can people be 
> trained to do this?  If so, how do you train people to do 
> good connection?
>   
Connection starts with good posture, a mutual warm embrace,  and feels 
good and comfortable to both partners. Poor posture breaks the 
connection (standing vertical or back on heels, not forward like you 
should.) Holding the partner too tight, lifting partner up (except on 
certain steps that require it), dropping your weight on your partner 
break connection. Bad basic technique breaks connection. Good technique 
enhances it.

And as Sergio said, there is the Spiritual aspect. Where the lady 
surrenders to you. She does this when she trusts you and she can tell by 
your embrace, certainty, confidence and respect that you will take care 
of her on the dance floor and she will be safe in your arms. You can 
feel the surrender when she relaxes in your arms and responds to your 
signals/lead/mark. My first care for the lady is that I protect her, 
that she will not get bumped or stepped on in a crowded dance floor 
(because she is dancing backwards in heels with her eyes closed.) She 
will sense that. Then I care for connection and musicality. Then with 
all that buzzing in my head, I have to detach from the mental noise, 
relax and enjoy the dance myself. Then we are really connected and 
dancing together as one.
> What is connection with music?  What is the difference 
> between good connection and ban connection or no 
> connection?  Can people be trained to do this?  If so, how 
> do you train people to do good connection with the music?
>   
Get into a musicality class or workshop. Typically in the classes I've 
been in, we listen to the music (Tango has a 4 beat measure) and then 
the teacher has us practice stepping on the 1, or the 1 & 3, or 1-2-3. 
Then we practice pausing at certain points, either at the end of a 
phrase, at slow points, random points. Drills like this train you to 
feel the music. And if you don't speak Spanish, finding translations of 
the songs titles and words helps deepen your understanding of the song 
and adds extra feeling and dimension to your dance. (

I've had troubles finding translations of many songs. Maybe someone else 
can post a comprehensive list of translations at some point.)

El Stevito de Gainesville



From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Wed May 13 17:44:30 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:44:30 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] side sacada
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1131.1242245027.990.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1131.1242245027.990.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD18@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Damian wrote: So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??

It is a sacada, but not a separate sacada for purposes of structural
classification;  It is a subset of an open front sacada, merely done
with the sacador's hips oriented a little differently.  Any other
classification would require counting the infinite number of possible
degrees of entry between 0 and 360 as separate sacadas. 


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed May 13 18:10:40 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 18:10:40 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Lots of questions
References: <608351.89984.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6A4150403F9B4778BE259E7168BFB224@michaelditkoff>

A lot of good questions. I don't know that I have a lot of good answers. I'm 
not going to respond question question.

When I took yoga, I learned that every person has a mind, body, and soul. 
Sometimes they are in sync with each other and sometimes they aren't.

When I started learning tango, I used mostly my mind and it looked like 
others did the same. We tried to mimic the instructor. When I moved onto 
private lessons, I was better able to focus and understand. My teacher, Joe, 
said "It's not the WHAT that is important, but the HOW." Many times I'd 
analyze what I was doing. After a long while, I developed technique and 
didn't have to think so much of execution.. But then, the body took over and 
I focused on how something felt. I could feel that a figure didn't work 
because somebody was in the wrong place or on the wrong foot. I had to use 
the brain to figure out what went wrong. Instead of knowing when something 
was wrong, I moved on to feeling when something was wrong. My body told me 
about quality of movement, e.g. did I complete my pivots? My body told me 
how the woman was following though not if I was misleading or the woman not 
following.

I'm not sure anybody can be taught connection. However, people can be taught 
to relax, which is the key to connection. I went to yoga for 3 years where 
the yoga therapist squeezed the tension out of me like toothpaste out of the 
tube. I didn't realize how stiff I was and that I was gripping the woman, 
not embracing her.
To me, connection is like batteries in a flashlight. Either there is 
connection and the light comes on because the batteries are facing the 
correct direction or the light doesn't come on because a battery is facing 
the wrong direction.

How do you know when you have good connection? HMMM. That's like asking 
"when do you know you're in love?" Only the body and soul can answer that 
question. I have the best connection when my partner is relaxed with a firm, 
but soft frame. There's no pulling or pushing. We move to the music without 
rushing. When I lead a stepover, I feel when she's finished her pivot with 
or without an adornment. On rare occasions, I've felt my heartbeat or her 
heartbeat.

Questions about learning apply to the mind. I'm not sure how to train the 
body for connection. Connection to music? All I can suggest is to put on 
music and walk in the privacy of your house, thinking only of your 
movements. Your body will let you know if you're in sync with the music.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines 


From billserve at gmail.com  Wed May 13 18:12:07 2009
From: billserve at gmail.com (Bill Serve)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:12:07 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  side sacada
Message-ID: <400007590905131512q20fb6ed5t67e0b22cff748d71@mail.gmail.com>

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a side sacada done with the foot
opposite the direction of the sacada, whereas front or back sacadas
are done with the foot in the direction of the sacada?
(I only consider circular movement when talking about sacadas because
linear sacadas just don't work well. this puts me in the group that
thinks there are 36 traditional sacadas.)

-- 
Bill


http://tangofix.blogspot.com

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Wed May 13 19:45:27 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:45:27 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] side sacada
In-Reply-To: <400007590905131512q20fb6ed5t67e0b22cff748d71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <400007590905131512q20fb6ed5t67e0b22cff748d71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905131645s18de2671o53a71bbbc618e685@mail.gmail.com>

I can't imagine any sacada being with and or from the direction the
sacada comes from, it that happened, the follower would be taking the
foot/leg in half.

If there are 3 possible steps and there are only 3.  Forward, backward
and sidewards, then there are only 3 'directions' that a sacada can
come from...  If this is true, then a side sacada is just as valid as
a side step.  However, using your thought process Martin, do we then
remove all side steps and classify them as fwd or bkwd steps???

As for the linear sacada comment, like any movement, executed badly,
of course it will be hard or difficult.  Teaching sacada's, I often
teach linear going forwards first as it's incredibly easy to lead and
of course, keeps the line of dance.  I use both cross and parallel
systems to show differing outcomes and how it can affect the line of
dance...

From billserve at gmail.com  Wed May 13 19:55:55 2009
From: billserve at gmail.com (Bill Serve)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:55:55 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  side sacada
In-Reply-To: <400007590905131645ie539ad4iccdc88783d7e53c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1131.1242245027.990.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD18@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<400007590905131458j3ced8c23v91e6e1f860c67f56@mail.gmail.com>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD19@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<400007590905131645ie539ad4iccdc88783d7e53c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <400007590905131655jeb52809x758fc3ec6191d189@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bill Serve <billserve at gmail.com>
Date: May 13, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov>


What I mean by direction of the sacada is the direction of the giro,
 to the leaders left or to the leaders right,  my point is that for a
 front sacada to either the front side or back step of the follower the
 leader sacadas with the same foot  as the direction of the turn, and
 for a side sacada he would sacada with the foot that is not in the
 direction of the turn.

 I believe that the leader must go in the direction of the follower to
 replace her foot position with you foot (isn't that what Sacada
 means?). If two people dancing together with each other in a circular
 motion go in different directions they will end up going away from
 each other (different circles) or will bang into each other (same
 circle different directions), so they must both go in the same
 direction or disconnect from each other.


 On 5/13/09, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov> wrote:
 > You lost me. I have no idea what you mean by the direction of the
 >  sacada. I have never heard that reference term used before.  The
 >  direction of the follower is not necessarily the same as the leader,
 >  even if she is doing a giro around the leader.  I can lead a woman to go
 >  in one direction while I go in another.
 >  A front sacada, for example, to a womans right front cross step,
 >  (clockwise giro) can be done with either foot of the leader sacador.
 >  Same for a back sac.   So I see no need to have a separate species
 >  called "side sacada".
 >  You have open and cross sacadas by the leader, front and back.  We only
 >  have two legs.  Our postion is either open to the follower or its
 >  crossed. I don't care if my entry is at 9 oclcok on the dial or 3 pm on
 >  the clock dia, I care how my torso is oriented toward the folloer, open
 >  or crossed.  Those are the only options, unless you count "jumping "with
 >  both feet at once sacadas.  So I get 48 sacadas without side sacadas.
 >  (72 if you insist side sacadas are a separate species. )
 >
 >
 >  -----Original Message-----
 >  From: Bill Serve [mailto:billserve at gmail.com]
 >  Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:59 PM
 >  To: Nussbaum, Martin
 >  Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
 >
 >  Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a side sacada done with the foot
 >  opposite the direction of the sacada, whereas front or back sacadas are
 >  done with the foot in the direction of the sacada?
 >  (I only consider circular movement when talking about sacadas because
 >  linear sacadas just don't work well. this puts me in the group that
 >  thinks there are 36 traditional sacadas.)
 >
 >
 >
 >  On 5/13/09, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov> wrote:
 >  > Damian wrote: So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??
 >  >
 >  >  It is a sacada, but not a separate sacada for purposes of structural
 >
 >  > classification;  It is a subset of an open front sacada, merely done
 >  > with the sacador's hips oriented a little differently.  Any other
 >  > classification would require counting the infinite number of possible
 >
 >  > degrees of entry between 0 and 360 as separate sacadas.
 >  >
 >  >  _______________________________________________
 >  >  Tango-L mailing list
 >  >  Tango-L at mit.edu
 >  >  http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
 >  >
 >
 >
 >  --
 >  Bill
 >
 >  http://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill
 >
 >  http://tangofix.blogspot.com
 >



--

Bill

 http://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill

 http://tangofix.blogspot.com


-- 
Bill

http://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill

http://tangofix.blogspot.com

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu May 14 01:34:54 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 22:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] side sacada
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0905131645s18de2671o53a71bbbc618e685@mail.gmail.com>
References: <400007590905131512q20fb6ed5t67e0b22cff748d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0905131645s18de2671o53a71bbbc618e685@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <904286.73755.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
> 
> If there are 3 possible steps and there are only 3.? Forward, backward
> and sidewards, then there are only 3 'directions' that a sacada can
> come from...? If this is true, then a side sacada is just as valid as
> a side step.? > 


While I agree with the theory and analysis, I'm sometimes a little 
confused about what is actually happening, so can we be specific 
for a moment?

The couple are in crossed feet, lady walking back, man forward 
on her right side.

The lady takes a RF backward step [also known as?an 'open?step']
The man steps forward with his RF and Sacadas the inside of her 
left leg with the outside of his right leg. This is a very common Sacada 
and very easy to lead.

The man's leg is moving [mostly] forward but the Sacada is made with 
the outside of the leg. So is this a Forward Sacada or a Side Sacada?

Another thing - everyone seems to agree on the mantra ...?"there are 
3 possible steps and there are only 3.? Forward, backward and sideward,"

But in the man's step described above, his foot first moves forward, but
then veers to the right to make the Sacada. So it appears to be a curved, 
diagonal step. Is this a 4th possibility?

Jack


      



From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu May 14 12:20:33 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  side sacada
Message-ID: <997171.75959.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Bill Serve <billserve at gmail.com> wrote:

> What I mean by direction of the sacada is the direction of
> the giro, to the leaders left or to the leaders right,? my
> point is that for a front sacada to either the front side or back step of the follower the  leader sacadas with the same foot? as the direction
> of the turn, and for a side sacada he would sacada with the foot that is
> not in the direction of the turn.
> 
>  I believe that the leader must go in the direction of the
> follower to replace her foot position with you foot (isn't that what
> Sacada means?). If two people dancing together with each other in
> a circular motion go in different directions they will end up going
> away from each other (different circles) or will bang into each
> other (same circle different directions), so they must both go in the
> same direction or disconnect from each other.

Suppose the woman is doing a forward ocho to the man's right (classic turn to the right) and man wants to sacada her.  Whether he does it with his right foot or his left foot, it's still considered a forward sacada if he takes a forward step.  It's a side sacada if he pivots and does his sacada as a side step.  Whether his sacada is a forward or side step has nothing to do with the direction of the turn or which foot he steps with.  It only has to do with how he is actually stepping.

If he does a forward sacada, the RESULT changes depending on whether he used his left foot or right foot.  But that's okay, and in fact, it's one of the choices a leader makes in deciding to sacada with what foot.  Some people just do it just "because they can", but it a more sophisticated way of dancing is to choose something for a particular effect.

But, really, I don't understand why people are trying to complicate something that is really pretty straightforward.  Both steps 3 and 4 of the 8CB are considered forward steps, right?  Do it while a woman is stepping across in front of you and you've got forward sacadas.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      


From roger at websa.com.au  Sun May 17 14:13:11 2009
From: roger at websa.com.au (roger)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 03:43:11 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L]  How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <000601c9d71b$24158a10$6c409e30$@com.au>

I have just read all the emails on 'How many figures do you need?' .  The
response seem to reflect the remarks made about making love. The males seem
all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of "It's not how many,
but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and you see my
point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think of performance,
females of connection.

 

 I have been doing following classes for a while and really understand the
female point of view. If I make that connection, even it is walking, it is
more enjoyable than any number of "fancy steps" where we aren't connected.

 

Roger Spence

Tango Adelaide

www.tangoadelaide.org

 


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon May 18 05:09:20 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 05:09:20 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
References: <000601c9d71b$24158a10$6c409e30$@com.au>
Message-ID: <65BF19D0935E49D6968ECF8A04C5ACE7@michaelditkoff>

Roger:
Congratulations!! You are absolutely correct. It took me a long time to 
learn this important lesson from the book "Men are from Mars. Women are from 
Buenos Aires.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "roger" <roger at websa.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?


>I have just read all the emails on 'How many figures do you need?' .  The 
>response seem to reflect the remarks made about making love. The males seem
> all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of "It's not how 
> many,  but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and you see 
> my
> point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think of performance,
> females of connection.
>
> I have been doing following classes for a while and really understand the 
> female point of view. If I make that connection, even it is walking, it is
> more enjoyable than any number of "fancy steps" where we aren't connected.
>
> Roger Spence
>
> Tango Adelaide
> 

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon May 18 10:27:20 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 07:27:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <655001.57531.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


I can't fault guys too much for trying to learn new figures.  Heck, I try to learn new ornaments all the time.  As a follower, I'll get a much wider variety of steps than a man will at a milonga.  That could by why the male/female responses are as they are.  When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always thinking "what else can I do?"  Women may just take this variety for granted instead of realizing how hard it is for man to develop his dance.  I find it more difficult for me to express myself fully as a leader than as a follower.  Not sure how much of that is skill-related versus the roles of the partners.

It's nice that men really think about making the dance interesting for the women and that they compete with each other in one form or another.  As with anything else, it's about finding a good balance.  So I don't think anyone should be pooh-poohing learning figures just because it's learning figures.  Learning figures at the expense of partner connection, though, would be bad.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Sun, 5/17/09, roger <roger at websa.com.au> wrote:

> From: roger <roger at websa.com.au>
> Subject: [Tango-L]  How many figures do you need?
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:13 PM
> I have just read all the emails on
> 'How many figures do you need?' .? The
> response seem to reflect the remarks made about making
> love. The males seem
> all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of
> "It's not how many,
> but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and
> you see my
> point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think
> of performance,
> females of connection.



      


From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Mon May 18 13:03:35 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:03:35 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] There are no side steps
In-Reply-To: <mailman.995.1242318266.5136.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.995.1242318266.5136.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD73@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Sorry I did not reply to Damian and jack last Thursday post sooner, I
was in Montreal for the fest.  
Jack Dylan quoted Damian, and said, 
Another thing - everyone seems to agree on the mantra ...there are 
3 possible steps and there are only 3. Forward, backward and sideward. 
Damian asked should we remove all side steps?  I say Yes.  
There are only three steps in tango.  Forward cross, back cross, and
open steps.    This is the only structurally logical way to view the
dance.  Everything else is less precise. 
If this is  not controversial enough, and since I havent had sleep in
four days I am feeling ornery, I will tell you another secret, that
proves my above statement - every single step in tango is part of a
giro, either clockwise or counterclockwise. Ie, every right front cross
or right back cross is part of a giro clockwise.    What you might call
walking forward in line with a partner is simply leading her to a
continual series of open to open alterations, or cambios. 
 


From shop at tango-argentino.info  Mon May 18 13:33:14 2009
From: shop at tango-argentino.info (www.tango-argentino.info)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:33:14 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.929.1242663378.19736.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.929.1242663378.19736.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4A119BDA.16598.1B349048@shop.tango-argentino.info>

> 
>  I have been doing following classes for a while and really 
understand the
> female point of view. If I make that connection, even it is 
walking, it is
> more enjoyable than any number of "fancy steps" where we aren't
connected.

hola,
If you are not connected dancing a figure but yes when you are 
walking, that's a sign that you are dancing figures or elements which 
are too difficult for you you. Some dancers dance their learned 
figures after one hour practicing in a milonga, that doesn't work. 
A friend on my, the milonguero Jorge Manganelli, said one time, "..a 
figure you learn in 1 hour, to dance the figure  in a milonga on the 
music in harmony with your partner in 2 years..."


keep on studying

Ricardo


www.tango-argentino.info
www.tango-dvd.net



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon May 18 13:52:22 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] There are no side steps
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD73@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <mailman.995.1242318266.5136.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD73@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <864322.51213.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: "Nussbaum, Martin" mnussbau at law.nyc.gov

> There are only three steps in tango.? Forward cross, back cross, and
> open steps.????.... ?I will tell you another secret, that
> proves my above statement - every single step in tango is part of a
> giro, either clockwise or counterclockwise.> 


Actually, your second statement doesn't 'prove' your first statement 
because you're simply repeating yourself. If there are only 3 steps in 
tango - forward cross, back cross, and?open step then, obviously every 
step in tango is part of a Giro because a Giro is made up of only those 
3 steps.

But, suppose we're walking directly?in-line in parallel feet - are?the lady's 
backward steps back crosses or open steps?- and which is which and why?

Jack


      



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon May 18 14:47:10 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:47:10 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] There are no side steps
Message-ID: <SNT115-W8C19FB405972311419B10975A0@phx.gbl>


"I will tell you another secret, that
> proves my above statement - every single step in tango is part of a
> giro, either clockwise or counterclockwise.> 
 
 
"But, suppose we're walking directly in-line in parallel feet - are the lady's backward steps back crosses or open steps - and which is which and why?"
 
 
Giro means "turn" so when you are walking straight ahead you are not doing a giro but *you can think that each one of the steps are part of a giro*. So for analytic purposes you can think that way but in actuality when you walk ahead you are not doing a giro (turn) you are walking in a line.
 
When the woman is executing a giro to the right she always crosses with the right leg and opens with the left one.  When she is executing a giro to the left she always crosses witht the left leg and opens with the right one.
 
 
So when she is walking backwards in a straight line each time she "crosses" with her right you can think of this being part of a turn to the right and when she is "crossing" with left you may think of that particular step as being part of a turn to the left.  
 
So when she is walking back to the cross she steps forward with left, opens with right and *then she crosses with left*. You may think of this as being part of a left turn.
 
May you have many interesting giros,
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Mon May 18 16:02:15 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:02:15 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] There are no side steps
In-Reply-To: <864322.51213.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.995.1242318266.5136.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD73@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL> 
	<864322.51213.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W2743CC187B1C426B1FD3D4A95A0@phx.gbl>


> From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com
> But, suppose we're walking directly in-line in parallel feet - are the lady's 
> backward steps back crosses or open steps - and which is which and why?

It depends on where the man is stepping. The test is, if the man and woman turn their bodies to fully face each other, keeping feet stationary and only pivoting as needed, do the legs become more crossed or do they 'open' up. For example, if the woman steps straight back with her R, and I step with my right to her right side, she is doing an open step and I am doing a front cross. If I step in the same place with my left, we are both doing open steps. If conversely she again steps back with her R and I step with either foot to her left side, then she is doing a back cross.

This is the system of analysis developed by Naviera/Salas et al that has been labeled Nuevo Tango. It is certainly not the only way of analyzing tango steps. The unqualified statement "there are no side steps in tango" is false in its stated universality. You could say with validity something like, "In the system developed by Naviera, in which all steps are reducable to a step in a giro, there are only three steps, front and back crosses and open steps." In my personal analysis system, I differentiate between side steps and other types of open steps. I really think most dancers do the same. The definition of open steps obviously has utility for analyzing patterns and positions and options, but it's clearly counterintuitive for most people who recognize the difference between stepping "to the side," as in the direction of the line of the hips, vs other types of "open" steps. If you insist on dealing only with front and back crosses and open steps, then the step that most people call a "side step" is simply one type of open step. However clearly not all open steps are side steps, so IMO it's valuable to discuss the properties and use of side steps as a special case of open steps.

    J

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From garybarn at ozemail.com.au  Tue May 19 09:27:38 2009
From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:27:38 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <655001.57531.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <655001.57531.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8E7019DA-EBF2-40AC-A5ED-5BB6CB316E7C@ozemail.com.au>

I was struck by this observation:

> When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always thinking "what else  
> can I do?"

I don't get this feeling often, but its a killer when it happens.  
(BTW, I'm almost certain that the writer knows a lot more 'stuff'  
than me.)

I've realised that I only have this feeling at a milonga when either:

1) I'm not connecting well with my partner (especially those who like  
to add lots of noise to the dance, but also just when I'm having a  
bad dance day, or shouldn't have accepted the dance); or
2) I don't like the music at all for dancing tango (eg against my  
better judgement, I've said yes to a doof-doof); or
3) I'm intimidated (eg sometimes dancing with someone much better  
than me).

I don't know much in the way of figures. And I have wonderful dances  
often enough to make life worthwhile.

But it seems that, when I'm cornered, my brain still resorts to "must  
do more stuff".

Maybe its hardwired.

(Your mileage will of course vary.)

GB


From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Tue May 19 12:47:03 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:47:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Jay Rabe, side steps as a subset of open steps
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1053.1242750182.19639.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1053.1242750182.19639.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFDCB@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>


 "side step" is simply one type of open step. However clearly not all
open steps are side steps, so IMO it's valuable to discuss the
properties and use of side steps as a special case of open steps.

Sidesteps are a sub-species of open steps, but not a "special case" ,
treating  it as such needlessly muddies the waters and overcomplicates
things. 
The whole idea  of the Naveira system is to know where you and she are
instantly so you can improvise on the spot,  even when with every step
you vary who is the center and who is going around whom,  like a jazz
musician knowing where he is in the solo to get back to the bridge of
the phrase.   If you insist on special cases for every type of movement,
why not distinguish between the type of tight left front cross a woman
does in the cruzada and the longer left front cross she does in an open
embrace counter clockwise (ccw) giro ?  For structural analysis
purposes, ie, whats possible next, it makes no difference what the exact
size or angle of each of the three steps are.  But,  do whatever winds
your clock, or your giro  :). 


From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Tue May 19 12:48:58 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:48:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] side steps as a subset
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFDCC@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

forgot to mention that in the first line of last post i was quoting jay
rabe, who was critiquing my post of the other day,

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed May 20 12:14:47 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <813252.25188.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 5/19/09, Gary <garybarn at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always
> thinking "what else? 
> > can I do?"
> 
> I don't get this feeling often, but its a killer when it
> happens.? (BTW, I'm almost certain that the writer knows a lot more
> 'stuff'? than me.)


I wrote the first statement above and while I know a lot of stuff (but let's not do a count comparison) I don't get much of a chance to use it at a milonga.  I am so used to eliminating things from my vocabulary to adjust to my partner, that when I do have a partner who can really dance, it's like "wait a minute, I can actually do something but what?".  For less experienced partner, I need to search around for what can I do that this person can handle without boring myself with the same backward ochos that I did for the last 3 tandas.

I don't feel those artistic restrictions as a follower, perhaps that's just because I'm more skilled as a follower than as a leader.  And while we hear all the time that men need to adjust to the level of the follower, I don't think women quite fully appreciate what they are asking of the leaders.  Kudos to the guys who just keep plugging away at this dance and making ordinary women feel special.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      


From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Wed May 20 19:48:34 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:48:34 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
In-Reply-To: <813252.25188.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <813252.25188.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905201648w5ba6ef47pc4ff2352ef8b1bbf@mail.gmail.com>

Trini

I would agree with this immesely - as a follower, certainly I'm more
limited.? As a leader, I don't have to think anywhere near as much as
most of my leading dance process is now well and truly bedded.

However, when many of the women I know start to lead, they go through
this enormous learning curve and realise just how difficult it is for
the leader and almost immediately have more respect for the leaders
that do not only lead well, but musically and navigate and protect
and...

The same can be said for men learning to follow for whatever reason
that they have, they then understand how much hard it is to follow and
then how important it is to lead clearly - this is why all my male
students learn to do both sides at some point.  The revelations that
they have are very important - especially when it comes to pushing and
pulling with the arms (lets not debate this again...).

Damian

>
> I don't feel those artistic restrictions as a follower, perhaps that's just because I'm more skilled as a follower than as a leader. ?And while we hear all the time that men need to adjust to the level of the follower, I don't think women quite fully appreciate what they are asking of the leaders. ?Kudos to the guys who just keep plugging away at this dance and making ordinary women feel special.
>


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 18 12:48:57 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Message-ID: <486170.1013.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It seems like the alternative to lots of variety in steps is to either do
few steps better and/or do the walk with more variety. 
For the close embrace enthusiast who doesn't want to break the embrace
in order to do a figure, there is the search for a more profound connection
throughout the figures the pauses and then there is the walk.
The walk is THE place where variety can lead to more mutual?enjoyment in the dance.
Switching back and fourth from parallel to crossed at key junctions in the dance is 
a very beautiful movement. The crossed footed walk is usually headed for an early
goal of walking to the cross or an immediate giro while the walk in parallel can be extended
and synchopated endlessly if so desired. 
I personally love to watch the walk and it's many permutations. For me, the figures are
punctuations in the walk much?like a pause would be.? There are some great walkers out 
there and I'm always watching for their videos to appear.? At this point in my quest for
Tango Flow, the walk is my daily bread...and butter.


      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat May 23 09:38:02 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:38:02 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
References: <486170.1013.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DFB13C94677241B4A8BB3033779875F0@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
Congratulations. You got it. Look at the faces of the dancers. Who thinks 
too much and who feels the dance? Which leaders shove women through figures 
and who lets them move on their own? Which followers use their right arm to 
pull and push themselves through ochos?

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?


It seems like the alternative to lots of variety in steps is to either do 
few steps better and/or do the walk with more variety. For the close embrace 
enthusiast who doesn't want to break the embrace in order to do a figure, 
there is the search for a more profound connection throughout the figures 
the pauses and then there is the walk. The walk is THE place where variety 
can lead to more mutual enjoyment in the dance.



From rhink2 at netscape.net  Sat May 23 19:07:58 2009
From: rhink2 at netscape.net (rhink2@netscape.net)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:07:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <8CBAA1272C3E940-114-2988@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com>

Before this thread runs its course, I thought I'd add my view.

To me this question is a bit like asking musicians how many techniques 
are needed to play their instruments. ?After all a dancer is like a 
musician who makes no sound; a tango couple is akin to two musicians 
playing a duet silently. ?So, does a trumpeter need to know 
triple-tonguing? Does a saxophonist need circular breathing? Should a 
pianist be able to play chords or arpeggios? Should a banjo player be 
able to fram or pick?

There are at least two basic answers depending upon ones goals. ?The 
virtuoso might answer as many as one can learn or invent. The 
recreational, non-professional might answer as many as one can master 
comfortably.

There has been much discussion about what followers prefer. I believe 
the consensus has been something to the effect that simpler is better 
as long as it's clearly lead. I would agree with this view with some 
qualifications. First, the follower needs an opportunity to shine (i.e. 
add her interpretation to the dance). So by keeping her dancing 
defensively, she cannot throw in her ?syncopations or firuletes.

Second, the music has features. These features call for, if not beg 
for, a dance response. For example, a break suggests a parada; a long 
note held for seconds indicates, at least to me, some kind of pose. To 
simply ignore these features reduces the music to a metronome beat. One 
0Aneeds the tango vocabulary to respond. Walking is not enough!

Bob


From tobias_conradi at yahoo.de  Tue May 26 11:34:11 2009
From: tobias_conradi at yahoo.de (Mr tobias conradi)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:34:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tango-L] tango.info @ facebook
Message-ID: <480290.73137.qm@web23804.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Hi all,

you can become a fan of tango.info at facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/tangoinfo/76690269569

This way you can learn about important updates to the site.

Event data is currently not so good, except for festivals ( http://festivals.tango.info ) and Berlin ( http://berlin.tango.info )

What is quite cool is the track data I think.

workpage http://eng.tango.info/work:tu_el_cielo_y_tu

links to track pages, e.g. 


 http://eng.tango.info/00743214129920-1-7

this page in turn links to pages with same original recording and to CD shops including a music snippets player. 

Become a fan of tango.info in facebook if you like so:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/tangoinfo/76690269569

Best regards
Tobias

--
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany

http://eng.tango.info http://festivals.tango.info
http://reliquias.tango.info http://gmap.tango.info
http://info.tango.info



      


From tobias_conradi at yahoo.de  Tue May 26 11:38:27 2009
From: tobias_conradi at yahoo.de (Mr tobias conradi)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:38:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
In-Reply-To: <FA9EAE46904D4DDE971309AB24B48818@michaelditkoff>
References: <mailman.647.1241972248.32325.tango-l@mit.edu><DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL><B78E1F4E06E64BCABC7D0D018BE95806@KingKong><DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<D955F474-FAEF-4F92-ACB7-130FF35A3D9F@ozemail.com.au>
	<FA9EAE46904D4DDE971309AB24B48818@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <871681.18130.qm@web23805.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Is the sacada a building or is it a movement?

 --
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany

http://eng.tango.info http://festivals.tango.info
http://reliquias.tango.info http://gmap.tango.info
http://info.tango.info



----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ----
> Von: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> An: Gary <garybarn at ozemail.com.au>; tango-l at mit.edu
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 13. Mai 2009, 02:54:49 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48.  Was - how many figures
> 
> To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back. These messages remind me 
> of a traffic circle. There's only ONE traffic circle at Columbus Circle in 
> New York. You can enter it from 8th Avenue and Broadway northbound, 59th 
> Street westbound,  and exit on Broadway soutbound and northbound. Regardless 
> of where you enter and exit, there's only ONE traffic circle.
> 
> Michael
> I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gary" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
> 
> 
> > Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.
> >
> > There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one  just
> > after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with
> > De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny
> > one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was
> > hardly room to move.
> >
> > And that's just a start. There's probably millions!
> >
> > GB
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tango-L mailing list
> > Tango-L at mit.edu
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue May 26 21:31:08 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:31:08 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Beautiful quote
Message-ID: <A3656E9545C949A4807467159EA8DB28@michaelditkoff>

I found this quote on the Simbatango blog:

  ?When a man walks nicely, the woman dies in his embrace.

  ?When a man walks badly, the woman wants to die.

HT: yy

from ? Dancing for the woman, Walk

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 26 22:00:55 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:00:55 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Beautiful quote
In-Reply-To: <A3656E9545C949A4807467159EA8DB28@michaelditkoff>
References: <A3656E9545C949A4807467159EA8DB28@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0905261900mc6fb70dy6f00c652494f6a76@mail.gmail.com>

Beautiful!

2009/5/27 Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
>
> I found this quote on the Simbatango blog:
>
> ??When a man walks nicely, the woman dies in his embrace.
>
> ??When a man walks badly, the woman wants to die.
>
> HT: yy
>
> from ? Dancing for the woman, Walk
>
> Michael


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue May 26 23:15:52 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:15:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Beautiful quote
In-Reply-To: <A3656E9545C949A4807467159EA8DB28@michaelditkoff>
References: <A3656E9545C949A4807467159EA8DB28@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <61971.23581.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> 
> ? ?When a man walks nicely, the woman dies in his embrace.
> ? ?When a man walks badly, the woman wants to die.
> 

I've heard Javier and Stella use the phrase during a workshop.

Jack


      



From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Thu May 28 17:59:14 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:59:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
Message-ID: <8CBADF6ACAE3FA1-17B0-B6D@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>

I have just come across this Argentine folk dance and I love it - I am 
especially struck by the movements that also appear in tango.  Any 
suggestions to find out more about the dance?

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu May 28 20:52:26 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:52:26 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
Message-ID: <SNT115-W430D56F35AE1DD56B81EF897510@phx.gbl>



The "malambo" was born in the loneliness of the plain around 1600. Among our dances, it is an exception because it does not have lyrics, the music of the guitars accompany this dance that only men perform. The dancer shows off with the tap dancing, the "cepillada" (brushing) (to graze the floor with the sole of the foot), the "repique" (the hit with the heels and the spur) or the "floreos". His feet hardly touch the ground.
The dancer?s movements, when crossing his legs, tapping energetically making capers with the lasso and the balls, are amazing. The "malambo", the same as the "payada the contrapunto" (poetic competition) was, in the traditional dances, a real tournament of the "gaucho?s" skills.

 
Malambo competitions are part of the celebration of the end of the harvest in rural areas.  Malambo dancers also perform in folkloric shows in the cities.
 
The gauchos competing are judged by the symmetry of their steps, (they show that they are able to do the steps with both legs), skill, dexterity, clothing, elegance, attitude, demeanor.
 
Sometimes they use boleadoras, lazos, spurs.
 
There are competitions of Quartets de Malambo, (four dancers). These competitions are choreographed.
 
The instruments that are used are the drum, the guitar, violin and bandoneon.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecEtLOFRA1A&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYuCURAXTII&feature=related  Drums and boleadoras
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRnQ1x2sMBg&feature=related Malambo Show
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqU6dubeUng&feature=related  With Boleadoras
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXj4j8YVOg&feature=related
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QihC4Opvfb4&feature=related  Cuarteto
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu May 28 21:31:26 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 01:31:26 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo II
Message-ID: <SNT115-W83E4997F30D3C94A80B9397510@phx.gbl>


Those that would like more information about malambo, and read about the difference between the northern and southern forms of the dance can see a web page sent to me by a friend. (Susan).
 
http://www.travelsur.net/argentinamusic/malambo.html
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
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From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Thu May 28 22:42:38 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:42:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo II
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W83E4997F30D3C94A80B9397510@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W83E4997F30D3C94A80B9397510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CBAE1E43578697-17B0-1736@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>

thanks for everyone's responses - I was reluctant to just google, 
because it can be hard to weed through all the information you can get 
back....I am going to continue to learn about it as I can, I think it's 
great and gives me yet another reason to visit Argentina.......


-----Original Message-----
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
To: Tango-L List <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 9:31 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo II






Those that would like more information about malambo, and read about 
the
difference between the northern and southern forms of the dance can see 
a web
page sent to me by a friend. (Susan).

http://www.travelsur.net/argentinamusic/malambo.html
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l







From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Fri May 29 11:03:18 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:03:18 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0905290758r11612d5bxb213e6a6dd1f731c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT115-W430D56F35AE1DD56B81EF897510@phx.gbl>
	<ebb7980c0905290758r11612d5bxb213e6a6dd1f731c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0905290803q472dcf73n297627b8fd5ca296@mail.gmail.com>

Funny how an Argentinian gaucho dance resembles the Caucasian lezginka (for
example, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5LuAZ6ebw ) so much. The
Caucasians don't have boleadoras though, they use mean-looking daggers
instead!

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From sl at stevelittler.com  Fri May 29 11:59:15 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:59:15 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
In-Reply-To: <8CBADF6ACAE3FA1-17B0-B6D@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBADF6ACAE3FA1-17B0-B6D@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4A200653.8010900@stevelittler.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcCpN_EICiY
Two of my favorite Tango dancers Roberto Herrera and Pablo Veron
0:54 Malambo and Tap
2:45 Boleadoras and Tap

Barbra wrote:
> I have just come across this Argentine folk dance and I love it - I am 
> especially struck by the movements that also appear in tango.  Any 
> suggestions to find out more about the dance?

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 12:02:41 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:02:41 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Gaucho Trousers, bombachas, lezginka and malambo.
Message-ID: <SNT115-W275416F2D4CF840F67C05997510@phx.gbl>


 
Sergei says "Funny how an Argentinian gaucho dance resembles the Caucasian lezginka (for example, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5LuAZ6ebw ) so much."
 
I personally think that the music and the dance in Lezginka and Malambo are obviously different although I have to agree that there are some similarities.
 
Perhaps the most important element is the "Gaucho Trousers" that were imported from Russia after the Crimean War ended with the treaty of Paris in 1856.  The war ended and the Russian Army was left with a surplus of military trousers that were imported into the Rio de la Plata by English traders.
 
These wide pants were rapidly adopted by the gauchos for working and also to dress during holidays.
 
They were later adopted by urban dwellers in Argentina, Uruguay and all over the world when the "Gaucho Fashion"
was madee known by Christian Dior and other well known clothing firms.
 
Gaucho trousers are called "Bombachas".
 
Best regards, Sergio 
 
 
 
Bombacha de campo
De Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
Saltar a navegaci?n, b?squeda
 
Gauchos vistiendo bombachaLa bombacha de campo es un pantal?n ancho y resistente, parte de la vestimenta tradicional de los gauchos que habitan la pampa argentina, uruguaya y brasile?a.
Aunque las bombachas son ya tradicionales en el Cono Sur, su introducci?n fue relativamente tard?a; llegaron all? de manos de los comerciantes brit?nicos, que las hab?an copiado de los turcos en ocasi?n de la Guerra de Crimea. La necesidad de colocar los sobrantes las llev? eventualmente a la regi?n del Plata, donde su utilidad para la equitaci?n las hizo populares.
Las bombachas tienen perneras anchas y tableadas, y se cierran junto al tobillo con un bot?n para facilitar su inserci?n en las botas. A la cintura las sujetaba un cintur?n ancho ? En ocasiones festivas se usaba una faja y sobre ella un cintur?n llamado tirador ornado de monedas con una hebilla o rastra fabricada muchas veces con metales preciosos (oro y plata). Las bombachas se fabricaban de mezclilla o gabardina.

 Referencias  [editar]
 
El origen de nuestra bombacha criolla, que con el tiempo se convertir? en sustito del antiguo chirip? gauchesco, comienza con el tratado de paz de Par?s firmado en marzo de 1856 entre los representantes del ej?rcito anglo-franc?s y Rusia, que pon?a punto final a la llamada ?Guerra de Crimea?. Dicha guerra, que termin? antes de lo previsto, dej? un gran remanente de prendas fabricadas para este ej?rcito que fue exportado al R?o de la Plata para ser utilizado por nuestros soldados.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
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From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Fri May 29 12:45:20 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:45:20 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
In-Reply-To: <4A200653.8010900@stevelittler.com>
References: <8CBADF6ACAE3FA1-17B0-B6D@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A200653.8010900@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <4A201120.8020909@yahoo.com>

Nelson Avila is a maestro of malambo as well as tango....

Steve Littler wrote:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcCpN_EICiY
>Two of my favorite Tango dancers Roberto Herrera and Pablo Veron
>0:54 Malambo and Tap
>2:45 Boleadoras and Tap
>
>Barbra wrote:
>  
>
>>I have just come across this Argentine folk dance and I love it - I am 
>>especially struck by the movements that also appear in tango.  Any 
>>suggestions to find out more about the dance?
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From john at lowry.com.au  Fri May 29 22:54:11 2009
From: john at lowry.com.au (John Lowry)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:54:11 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Milonga_Para_Los_Ni=F1os?=
Message-ID: <604B57CF-9E11-40FE-BF01-F2306BD328C5@lowry.com.au>

Organisers or schools wishing to run an annual Milonga for Milonga  
Para Los Ni?os (Dance for the children), please apply at www.paralosninos.net 
.
Thank you.
John Lowry




From tango at kidojo.it  Sat May 30 07:43:58 2009
From: tango at kidojo.it (tango@kidojo.it)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 13:43:58 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo
References: <8CBADF6ACAE3FA1-17B0-B6D@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00de01c9e11b$ebaefc50$0200a8c0@serverki>

look at youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecEtLOFRA1A ecc.

Patricia Muller
www.kidojo.it

From tango at kidojo.it  Sat May 30 07:46:39 2009
From: tango at kidojo.it (tango@kidojo.it)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 13:46:39 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Malambo II
References: <SNT115-W83E4997F30D3C94A80B9397510@phx.gbl>
	<8CBAE1E43578697-17B0-1736@webmail-dd17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c9e11c$4b8dae00$0200a8c0@serverki>

Excuse me! You had already all the infos!
patricia muller


From nina at earthnet.net  Sun May 31 21:22:06 2009
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:22:06 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Julio & Corina dancing milonga
Message-ID: <3E4C0A8C05654DCBA13B47D942040B46@laptop4018c244>

Hello, dancers.

Here is a video of an incredible milonga danced by Julio Balmaceda and 
Corina de la Rosa in 2008.  Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GgiufIenm0&feature=related

Nina

You may find Nina at www.tangoledanza.com or on www.facebook.com.