From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 00:22:35 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or Heel? Message-ID: <928437.16375.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The subject of walking on ball or heel has been discussed many times and I've always believed it was just a matter of personal preference. I've always walked ball-first because it's the way I was taught and I think it's more elegant. But recently I've been experiencing some pain in my leg which, after an MRI,?has been diagnosed as a strain in the upper part of the calf muscle. After some experiments, I've found that landing ball-first increases the pain whereas landing on the heel reduces the pain. The problem is that? I feel less stable that way when dancing with a partner in close embrace. There's a slight wobble between putting the heel down and transferring the weight to the whole foot. This appears to make sense as the contact area on the heel is far less than when landing on the ball. Anyone else have any experience of this? Is it just a question of practicing with the new technique or is something else going on? Any help would be appreciated. Jack From jayrabe at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 02:31:41 2009 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:31:41 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or Heel? Message-ID: Jack, I agree that there's more elegance in the ball-first stepping, though I think there's more groundedness in the heel-first. Yes, IMO it is a matter of style, but you're also right that there are consequences to the choice. I don't have any experience in the pains you're having, but I understand completely about the extra stability of the ball-first style. I personally walk heel first, and it's taken several years of working on it for me to feel like I have any significant facility with it. Early on I was watching some videos of Naveira, and noted that while he predominately steps heel first, his right foot steps are often ball first. My analysis is that it's not so much a matter of the heel having more contact area as it is a consequence of more lever arm (or leg-arm? haha). You have more stability if you have a wider stance, and the additional foot-length of stance that you get between your standing leg and the ball as opposed to the heel of your stepping foot gives you just a bit more margin of stability. I think this explanation is also consistent with Naveira's often stepping ball first only with his right foot, due to the nature of the embrace. The left side of the embrace (from the leader's perspective), is more open, especially in the "V" embrace that Naveira uses, so there is more flexibility in allowing minor adjustments to the spacing between the bodies that can accommodate slight imbalances caused by the leader and follower less than perfectly stepping together (exactly same direction, exactly same length of step). On the right side, in contrast, because the chests are in full contact on that side, there's less flexibility, less range of adjustable motion, and the added stance length that you get with a ball-first step can give you just that little bit of extra stability that you need when things aren't precisely perfect. As far as your pains, I recommend you try stretching your calf muscles after a night of dancing, though you should probably consult with your doctor to see if he recommends waiting until the strain is healed before doing much stretching. J _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 03:01:54 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or Heel? Message-ID: <903275.45260.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> It could also be how you're presenting your leg. I do both heel-first and toe-first depending on what I need to do. Going heel first is the most natural and least stressful way of walking. However, if you want to continue doing toe-first, there's a way of doing it with less stress on the calf. When I do toe-first, I still keep my lower leg relaxed and don't point the toe. The knee lifts but the toe hangs so that it can land first. If you're actively pointing the toe, that could place more stress on your calf. When walking heel-first, think of rolling onto the metatarsal using your standing leg after you've made contact with your heel. The weight transfer onto the leading foot should feel like a "C". You might also have a tendency to pronate or supinate, which could cause the wobble. With practice, you'll be able to walk more steadily. If the problem persists, you might want to see an Alexander Technique professional who can teach you how to walk without stressing the muscles. Sometimes you can get insurance to cover their fee. Hope this helps. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > > There's a slight wobble between putting the heel down and > transferring > the weight to the whole foot. This appears to make sense as > the contact > area on the heel is far less than when landing on the ball. > > > Anyone else have any experience of this? Is it just a > question of > practicing with the new technique or is something else > going on? > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Jack > > > ? ? ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From syarzhuk at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 05:06:57 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 05:06:57 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or Heel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's a video of Naveira where you can clearly see him stepping heel first with his left and toe first with his right.In a class, no less. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgnjOZxVsCw Obviously, when you step heel first, you can make a larger step. Beginning leaders often don't realize that they can make a way larger step forward than their followers can do backward. Also there's a tendency in beginning leaders to shift their weight back on their heels with causes them to step toe first and only then move their body, confusing the lead. That's why I tell all beginners to keep the weight on the balls of their feet and step toe first. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) From sl at stevelittler.com Wed Jun 3 12:26:10 2009 From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:26:10 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or Heel? In-Reply-To: <928437.16375.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <928437.16375.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A26A422.9070907@stevelittler.com> Dear Jack, Yes, in the last month I experimented with the ball lead for two weeks and got the same bad pains in the arch, heel, ankle, calf, knee. (It was then further exacerbated by a bump to the knee by a theater seat. An Activator doctor helped with some treatment http://www.activator.com/ ) After consultation with my doctor and several walking gurus now I am back to the heel lead as a forward step default and doing much better. Of course on diagonal, side and back steps I go ball lead as a default. I do know a ball stepper but he does mostly side, diagonal and back steps, but in my mind is problematic to navigate in social dancing by causing problems crossing lanes on crowded floors. My teacher says ball lead is more pertinent to long smooth steps in stage Tango, not social dancing, where the heel lead would be the default.The only difference in the two leads is that the foot flexes naturally at the last second just before placing the heel down. Any videos with Jorge Dispari (Geraldine's father) and many other great dancers show this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAuh5ImWJmQ : that little flex just before landing. El Stevito de Gainesville Jack Dylan wrote: > The subject of walking on ball or heel has been discussed many times > and I've always believed it was just a matter of personal preference. I've > always walked ball-first because it's the way I was taught and I think it's > more elegant. But recently I've been experiencing some pain in my leg > which, after an MRI, has been diagnosed as a strain in the upper part > of the calf muscle. > > After some experiments, I've found that landing ball-first increases the > pain whereas landing on the heel reduces the pain. The problem is that > I feel less stable that way when dancing with a partner in close embrace. > There's a slight wobble between putting the heel down and transferring > the weight to the whole foot. This appears to make sense as the contact > area on the heel is far less than when landing on the ball. > > Anyone else have any experience of this? Is it just a question of > practicing with the new technique or is something else going on? > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Jack > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > From gerlebacher at fsu.edu Thu Jun 4 20:51:46 2009 From: gerlebacher at fsu.edu (Gordon Erlebacher) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:51:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Ball or heel Message-ID: I tend to walk toe first, although I do use the heel on occasion when I dance. I have found then walking on a single track, forward, that the toe first is easier for me (I learned it that way). However, I never land toe first. I land with a "broken" foot, i.e., that is, the outside edge of my foot hits the ground (no pressure on it). As I move off the back foot, I "roll" onto the metatarsal and I am prepared for the next step. Breaking the foot creates and action in the opposite hip, which remains slightly back with respect to the moving body and acts as a counter weight. This movement can be executed very slowly. It is very hard (for me) to walk with a heel lead in slow motion. Of course, this does not work when walking on two tracks. I used the technique for small steps as well, but the "edge of the foot" effect is reduced accordingly, but is always there. This technique is responsible for greatly increasing velocity control and smoothness (if that is desired). You can see this technique used in Gavito's dancing. Gordon From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 20:55:31 2009 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ?Tango is a Man/Woman equation..anything done to modify that will fail to produce THE Tango feeeeeling.? It is the guy who asks the girl to dance. He can be refused. Some get refused at least once every night...it's hard. One good justify it to oneself by saying..well, she's just a...? fill in the blanks but it withering and reduces the field with which one can dance. Things get worse and worser for a close embrace guy dancer. The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this close and no closer.. That hurts too. Self examination is always a problem; is there enough variety? Is the embrace too much or too little? Am I not providing enough 'variety' ?? enough Nuevo?? Add to that, the fact that the guy has to drive the dance, he has to feeeeeeel it! If he don't feeeeel it he won't do a good job dancing it..and so, he can't dance them all. He has to wait. ?One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of' the woman, provide safe space, listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding of the lead???? Is it any wonder why there are so few gus around and why they drop to the wayside one by one???? Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice....do I dance with her again?? Am I stupid? ? From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 02:53:41 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Mario, It's important that you dance ONLY with the ladies who really want to dance with you in the way that you want to dance. Otherwise, there's just no point. You'll soon find there are plenty - and forget the rest. If a girl turns you down at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her again. As you improve, it'll be her loss. I've known quite a few girls like that - and they sit for most of the night. But if it's a practica and she gives constructive advice, maybe you should listen. Jack > From: Mario > Things get worse and worser for a close embrace guy > dancer. > The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this close and no > closer.. > That hurts too.? > From robinctara at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:44:35 2009 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:44:35 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> Jack wrote: "If a girl turns you down at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her again. As you improve, it'll be her loss." Dear Jack, There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at that particular moment. I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful dancer to catch my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and abusive on the dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of never dancing with him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette. And there was no way to explain it. So in the first case I turned down a guy and hoped he would never ask me to dance again and in the second case I turned down a guy I would have happily danced with all night. How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is not him, it is the particular circumstance? Best, Robin http://www.taratangoshoes.com http://www.tangotique.com From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 09:04:41 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: <294758.96625.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Mario wrot > ?One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of' > the woman, provide safe space, > listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding > of the lead???? Mario, you take care of the woman because she can't see behind herself. And you are in charge of leading and indicating the speed and size of her movements. I am quite sure that if you started to step backward into someone, that she would indicate, by pressure of her left arm, that you should stop. > Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your > right arm lower you are lifting > mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How > tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it > where appropriate.."What does that have to do with > anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off > voice....do I dance with her again?? Am I stupid? The point of a practica is to improve. If you don't want suggestions, then don't go to a practica. And I am with the woman on this one: you are dancing with her. Do you know how tall you are? If yes, then you should have a good idea of how tall she is. But her height has no bearing on her suggestion. The real point is: don't lift the woman ( of any size or height) and throw her off axis by raising her left side. I call it the "I'm a little teapot" embrace and I hate it. From al at sgi.com Fri Jun 5 09:24:06 2009 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:24:06 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A291C76.5060107@sgi.com> Mario wrote: > The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this > close and no closer...That hurts too. That's entirely a self-inflicted wound. I suggest shedding some sense of entitlement. You'll see that the world is a much less frustrating place when you consider it's full of gifts to be bestowed upon you (a dance, even if not exactly in the embrace you'd prefer) rather than entitlements to be denied to you. From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk Fri Jun 5 09:58:39 2009 From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:58:39 +0100 (GMT+01:00) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: <27066368.1244210319937.JavaMail.root@ps33.mc.tiscali.sys> I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller next time. John Ward Bristol, UK Get ?25 off a case of wine with Tiscali's Naked Wines offer - www.tiscali.co.uk/wine From al at sgi.com Fri Jun 5 10:45:51 2009 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:45:51 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <27066368.1244210319937.JavaMail.root@ps33.mc.tiscali.sys> References: <27066368.1244210319937.JavaMail.root@ps33.mc.tiscali.sys> Message-ID: <4A292F9F.5050803@sgi.com> johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk wrote: > I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to > learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or > none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller > next time. > And, of course, protecting you from bruises to your ego is something of paramount importance which trumps all other considerations? No pain, no gain. From imhmedia at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 10:46:17 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:46:17 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A292FB9.6090807@yahoo.com> Hi Robin, I've had this happen too. I just tell the dancer I want to dance with ( but cannot because I just turned someone down), that indeed I have just turned somone down and that I hoped he would ask me the next tanda. I kind of whispered it to him and he completely understood and did ask me again that night. Followers have the right to dance with whom they want, just as leaders do when they chose to ask a particular person. There are times I have said yes to someone because the situation was right, and no to the same person because the situation wasn't right for me. If the decline comes nicely, there is usually little fallout. I. robin tara wrote: >Jack wrote: >"If a girl turns you down at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her >again. As you improve, it'll be her loss." > >Dear Jack, > >There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance >that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at >that particular moment. > >I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful dancer to catch >my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just >after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and abusive on the >dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of never dancing with >him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette. And there was no way >to explain it. > >So in the first case I turned down a guy and hoped he would never ask me to >dance again and in the second case I turned down a guy I would have happily >danced with all night. > >How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is >not him, it is the particular circumstance? > >Best, > >Robin > >http://www.taratangoshoes.com >http://www.tangotique.com >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 10:48:16 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: <534804.48582.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> -- Mario wrote: -- > Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it > where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice....do I dance with her again? Am I stupid? If you said it in an off-tone, then you get what you deserved. Otherwise, you're right - she's a heel. There's no need for anyone at a practica to give someone an attitude. Plus, why couldn't she rearrange her arm so that it's not affected by your arm? Being 5'4", I rarely have to adjust my right arm when I lead, but tall men have more issues with this. I bet she's never considered taken that into account and hasn't figured out that she should adjust too. When I follow men of all different heights, I am always adjusting my left arm so that it doesn't interfere with the leader. For tall guys, I embrace him lower down on his back and my arm clears his arm. Although, gentlemen, it's very chivalrous of you to take care of the women, please remember that women also need to take care of the leader if they want to become good dancers, too. -- robin tara wrote: > I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful > dancer to catch my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and > abusive on the dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of > never dancing with him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette. Robin, I would have gone ahead and accepted the dance with the second guy. Perhaps the first guy will get a clue. Or he might think you're a ____, and he might not ever ask you again. Hooray! > I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to > learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or > none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller > next time. > > John Ward > Bristol, UK I hope you're saying this in jest, John, because you'd be missing out on a lot of good dances. But if you want to let fear rule your dancing...whatever. Though perhaps you can teach that to Robin's first guy. The women might be grateful. Happy tangos to all, Trini de Pittsburgh From donald.sinclair at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:20:03 2009 From: donald.sinclair at gmail.com (Donald Sinclair) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:20:03 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <69c128920906050920i2ae7bd03n549ea9fc28136f0b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:44 PM, robin tara wrote: > Dear Jack, > How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is > not him, it is the particular circumstance? Why can't you talk to the man you want to dance with? It sounds as if you are placing too many restrictions on yourself - were you dancing somewhere with strict tango police? If either leader had adhered to strict milonga etiquette, he would not have managed to catch your eye for the cabeceo - in which case no refusal could have happened. Since this didn't happen, it is unreasonable for anyone to insist that you stick to strict milonga etiquette. Regards, Donald From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 13:57:11 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: robin tara > Dear Jack, > > There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance > that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at > that particular moment. > Robin, I did say ... "without a good reason" and Ilene gave a perfect answer ... "I just tell the dancer I want to dance with ( but cannot because I just turned someone down), that indeed I have just turned somone down and that I hoped he would ask me the next tanda. I kind of whispered it to him and he completely understood and did ask me again that night." Men are not stupid. A simple expalnation is all that is required. We know [or should know]?when a lady is turning us down because she just doesn't want to dance with us. So, why ask again? One girl told me she 'just leaving'. 20 minutes later she was still there, happily dancing with other guys. What am I supposed to think? Jack From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 14:19:37 2009 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no? =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From sl at stevelittler.com Fri Jun 5 15:25:46 2009 From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:25:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?/Cabeceo In-Reply-To: <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A29713A.6070307@stevelittler.com> Yes, that would be great! But pretty much no one uses it in America. I've never seen it "taught" in any Tango classes here. When I try it, I pretty much never get a glance back. The women don't even look for it and entertain themselves chatting while they wait for someone to come interrupt and ask them to dance. I've had popular dancers ask me at the end of the night why I didn't ask them to dance that night when I had tried to cabeceo them all night long. So now when I just go up to a woman and ask for the dance, I pretty much dance all night. (Heh - I do have a couple of close friends at my local milonga that I can just nod to and they nod back and it is "on." But they are the exception to the rule. I can't do that when I visit other milongas. When I do get a decline, I always take it _very_ graciously. And try again another time or another night. Usually the declines are from popular dancers at the end of the evening whose feet are aching and may have even taken their shoes off. Next time I ask earlier in the evening.) I think it is just part of our American culture that nobody bothers to teach it or enforce it here. El Stevito la luna de noche de Gainesville :-) Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: > I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no? From imhmedia at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 15:33:11 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:33:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> yes Jack, thanks...but I didn't give the first guy I turned down a reason, nor do I think it is necessary. I just smiled and said "not right now thanks". That should be enough... I donlt think anyone has to explain why they don't want to dance with a particular person at that moment. The best thing is for the guy to be gracious and ask another time/night. If she still doesn't want to dance, well then, she's probably telling you something and it's up to you whether you want to ask again. Cabaceo of course solves all of this and even in small communities it can work very well. I. and PS I myself have turned down dances with people when I was on the way out...only to find myself still there an hour later, talking with friends who just arrived maybe even dancing- ...so I don't think people should take this so personally! >>Robin, >> >>I did say ... "without a good reason" and Ilene gave a perfect answer ... >> >>"I just tell the dancer I want to dance with ( but cannot because I just >>turned someone down), that indeed I have just turned somone down >>and that I hoped he would ask me the next tanda. I kind of whispered >>it to him and he completely understood and did ask me again that night." >> >>Men are not stupid. A simple expalnation is all that is required. We know >>[or should know] when a lady is turning us down because she just doesn't >>want to dance with us. So, why ask again? >> >>One girl told me she 'just leaving'. 20 minutes later she was still there, >>happily dancing with other guys. What am I supposed to think? >> >>Jack >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Tango-L mailing list >>Tango-L at mit.edu >>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l >> >> >> From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 15:50:05 2009 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, whatever). I am also always utterly puzzled when some ask folks to dance the next tanda before they ever heard the first bar of the music, many times at the very end of the previous tanda/beginning of the cortina. It's totally amazing. I would not do it even with my most favorite dancing partner. How in the world do you know you'd want to dance at all? To me, if I do not like the music being played it is not likely that I would "give" my partner a good dance. So, what's up with that? ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From sl at stevelittler.com Fri Jun 5 15:54:26 2009 From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2977F2.9060306@stevelittler.com> Mario wrote: > One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of' the woman, provide safe space, > listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding of the lead???? The leader ultimately doesn't need it. He just leads. And is gracious about it. > Is it any wonder > why there are so few gus around and why they drop to the wayside one by one???? > Usually I have found most women very encouraging as long as I was enthusiastic and polite. > Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting > mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint I'm 6'1" tall and I've had it before with short women. I had my short lady instructor have to correct my technique on this so I don't repeat it. It was common of me to lift the woman up, especially on rock-step with pivot. That pulls the lady off balance/axis, makes her throw her butt backwards to recover her balance and is uncomfortable for her. I always take complaints back to my instructors to find out what to do to correct what I am doing. > and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice Depending on the context on how and when you asked it, it could be offensive, or she could have been in a bad mood. This always a possibility and so you always have to be gracious about these things, even when they go from bad to worse. If you counter-react and can't remain gracious under any circumstance no matter how rough, you'll get a reputation other than being always gracious. > ....do I dance with her again? If she has a usually warm personality, and you are a gracious gentleman, try to repair the upset, and yes, dance with her again once you have a warm feeling for her again. > Am I stupid? > Heh - sure. But you can fix that. :-) El Stevito de Gainesville From sl at stevelittler.com Fri Jun 5 16:15:06 2009 From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:15:06 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A297CCA.7060904@stevelittler.com> Yes. Very good points Dubravko. And I complicate it further myself by asking favorite partners ahead of time for "the next Milonga" etc. Then maybe it's a slow milonga I don't care for. Ugh. Or a lady will ask me to dance, but it's a Milonga and she's too new for that or too short for me to enjoy myself, and then I have to put her off until another Tango tanda that's more suitable. But most of these ladies I know pretty well and I can decline politely. El Stevito de Gainesville Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: > In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, whatever). > > I am also always utterly puzzled when some ask folks to dance the next tanda before they ever heard the first bar of the music, many times at the very end of the previous tanda/beginning of the cortina. It's totally amazing. I would not do it even with my most favorite dancing partner. How in the world do you know you'd want to dance at all? To me, if I do not like the music being played it is not likely that I would "give" my partner a good dance. So, what's up with that? > > ...dubravko > > From endzone102 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 16:31:14 2009 From: endzone102 at gmail.com (Endzone 102) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:31:14 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com> No, not really. How is being rejected from across a room any better than being rejected to my face? Indeed, there are a number of women on my 'do-not-dance" list. -Greg G On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: > I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no? > =================================== > seek, appreciate, and create beauty > this life is not a rehearsal > =================================== > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 16:46:05 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:46:05 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: <694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Endzone 102 wrote: > No, not really. ?How is being rejected from across a room any better than > being rejected to my face? Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH. Huck From imhmedia at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 17:35:46 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:35:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A298FB2.40108@yahoo.com> well said Huck! Huck Kennedy wrote: >On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Endzone 102 wrote: > > >>No, not really. How is being rejected from across a room any better than >>being rejected to my face? >> >> > > Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she >turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching >you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to >dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp >clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH. > >Huck > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 21:39:35 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <292607.19452.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34216.78907.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Huck Kennedy > > ? ? ? Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she > turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching > you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to > dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp > clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH. > Oh dear, Huck. Do you really feel like?that? Isn't it kinda pathetic? I would have thought your self-esteem would be high enough not to be crushed by a lady's rejection.. In my case, I smile, shrug and certainly don't return to my table. I ask the nearest girl I can find to dance and pull out all the stops to give her her best dance ever. Jack From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 21:46:13 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <444752.23970.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Dubravko Kakarigi > > In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a > lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not > wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, > whatever). > Hi Dubravko, You don't say what your response to the lady would be. In my case, I'd have to be in real pain before I would turn down a lady's request to dance. Jack From dchester at charter.net Sat Jun 6 09:15:22 2009 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:15:22 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01c9e6a8$d8e21840$8aa648c0$@net> Robin, We guys are rather simple creatures. If you tells us, then we'll understand. If you don't tell us, then we won't understand (and then we have to guess). In your experience, how often does a man accurately guess what a woman is thinking? : ) Regards, David -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:44:35 -0300 From: robin tara Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is not him, it is the particular circumstance? From DocDAS at aol.com Sat Jun 6 16:36:32 2009 From: DocDAS at aol.com (DocDAS@aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:36:32 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... Message-ID: Jack & Dubravko: Relax. Your entitled to politely refuse a dance from anyone, male or female. Jack I feel your pain but don't quite understand it. Do you think women are in pain or pained when they refuse you? Or are you just one of those lucky guys whose never been turned down on a request for a dance, or for that matter a date? God Bless. One should always try to avail oneself to request for a dance but, "Sorry. No Thanks" is OK. I've been dancing for a number of years and have never been to new milonga in a new city where I am a 'stranger in a strange place', where a woman has asked me to dance. And that's OK as well. In the end, and dare I raise the question, "Should a woman ever ask a man to dance" at a milonga that is? If they're friends, dance partners etc. that's a different story. I don't think it generally fits in with the style, origins and etiquette of tango. My personal opinion.....well let's hear it from you all first. Dan In a message dated 6/5/2009 9:47:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jackdylan007 at yahoo.com writes: > From: Dubravko Kakarigi > > In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a > lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not > wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, > whatever). > Hi Dubravko, You don't say what your response to the lady would be. In my case, I'd have to be in real pain before I would turn down a lady's request to dance. Jack _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l **************Stay connected and tighten your budget with a great mobile device for under $50. Take a Peek! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100122638x1221845911x1201401556/aol?redir=http://www.getpeek.com/aol) From garybarn at ozemail.com.au Sat Jun 6 21:20:06 2009 From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:20:06 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it seems there are guys that run a black list of women who said "no". Oh well, that gives me much more opportunity to dance with them! There's plenty of reasons I might not want to dance with someone -- perhaps as many as for the women saying "no" (or not saying "yes', with cabaceo). The music, the floor, my mood, phase of the moon, how she dances; how her dancing is affected by the music, the floor, my mood, the phase of the moon... But the fact that she said "no" once would have to be the strangest reason I've heard. Please, ladies, don't say yes to me if you mean no! From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 6 22:36:56 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 19:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <138692.47867.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: "DocDAS at aol.com" > > Jack & Dubravko: > ? ? Relax. Your entitled to politely refuse a?dance from anyone, male or > female. < In my case, I guess it's just old-fashioned chivalry. It's not normal for a lady to ask a man to dance so, when she does so, I think she must really want to dance but no one has asked her. I think it would be churlish of me to refuse. It might be different if ladies were queuing?up to?invite me, just because I'm a big-nametango-star. But I don't think that's ever gonna happen, haha. ? We all know that our time at the milongas is brief and we want?to enjoy every minute to the max. But suppose a lady asks you to help her cross a busy street when you're running late for a business meeting [or a milonga]. What are you gonna do? Politely refuse? ? Jack From tango at tangodesalon.de Sun Jun 7 13:40:44 2009 From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:40:44 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hi all. Dan asked: > > In the end, and dare I raise the question, "Should a woman ever > ask a > man to dance" at a milonga that is? If they're friends, dance > partners > etc. that's a different story. I don't think it generally fits in > with the > style, origins and etiquette of tango. My personal opinion.....well > let's hear > it from you all first. My opinion as a woman and sort-of-traditionalist: NOBODY (neither men nor women) should invite directly by asking someone to dance with him. If you're using the Cabeceo (Mirada) you don't have to and both (men and women) can take the initiative, as it is practised not only in BA, but in lots of other Milongas all over the globe. The benfits of the Cabeceo have been discussed exhaustively. I try to spread the word of it wherever we go. So, me practising the Cabeceo, I would never invite a man directly, unless he's a close friend. And I will also refuse most direct invitations, that are are not done by the Cabeceo or don't come from someone, whom I personally. I will do it politely and explain why. But Dan's question rather could be read as: Should a women be allowed to invite a man directly? And here's a YES from me! In a setting where men are allowed to invite directly, why should women be not? Hey! We're living in the 20th century. Why should women not be allowed to invite a man, rather than sit around all night, because they're not noticed or unknown or because nobody knows how to use the Cabeceo in that place. Go women! Do it politely, not being pushy and willing to accept a refusal. Same rights, same risks. ;-) About refusals: It's definetely not nice to refuse everyone, whom you believe to be a lower-level-dancer as yourself or not good-looking enough or too old. A refusal should not come too lightly, as it can hurt the person in question. But nobody should be obliged to dance with someone out of misunderstood chivalry, potliteness or whatever. If you refuse someone, do it nicely, try not to be rude. But if you're feeling, that you would suffer, in case you danced with that specific person: Don't! I've seen enough women (and men) shuffle around the dancefloor with bored, angry or painstruck expressions, and trying to mimick a friendly face between the dances. That's ridiculous and dishonest. So, be brave and say "No", if you mean "No"! And to those who invite directly: Please accept a polite refusal without being hurt or revengeful. If you are not willing to accept the refusal, please dont ask "Do you want to dance with me", because this is a question, that allows a "No". Just say: "You have to dance with me - now." That would be at least honest. Have a nice day, Melina MELINA SEDO & DETLEF ENGEL www.tangodesalon.de www.youtube.com/tangodesalon tango at tangodesalon.de (0049) (0)681 9381839 (0049) (0)177 4340669 From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Mon Jun 8 13:23:36 2009 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:23:36 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and refusal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with Melina, she nailed this topic. Use the cabaceo, people, it works, everywhere, even in America. Its human nature. The only exception is where milonga organizers keep it so darn dark you have to use radar instead of cabaceo to find partners, which is unfortunately becoming more common at milongas in the US. A person who does not meet your eyes, stares at the floor, turns her face, or does not smile at you when you pass by, is not a person you want to dance with, no matter how good a dancer that person is. Sure, if you asked, you might get a yes, out of politeness, but what good is that ? It will be a mercy tanda, totally devoid of enthusiasm or positive energy from that partner. No thanks. I am looking to dance tango, so I need a connection. I need to see some interest, a sparkle in her eyes, a slight smile, the porch light is on, someone is home, in the house. That is going to be a good tanda. Oh, and I totally understand Jack Dylan's attitude. If a woman turns down the invite, whether verbal or cabaceo, in a definitvely cold manner, such as slowly shaking her head no, why would you ever want to ask that woman again ? Let her dance with Gary Barn. From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 17:38:20 2009 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... In-Reply-To: <444752.23970.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <801644.94436.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <662653.28982.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com> <614118.98331.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A2972F7.8000703@yahoo.com> <730684.78285.qm@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <444752.23970.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <572666.69366.qm@web32001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Jack Dylan ... > You don't say what your response to the lady would be. In my case, I'd have to be in real pain before I would turn down a lady's request to dance. Right! I didn't. Only once did I flat out decline an invitation to dance. But, I must admit that sometimes I do employ certain evasive techniques. For example, there is this one particular lady with whom I dance and like to dance, actually, but not every single tanda - there are other dancers I'd like to dance with. Many times she comes and parks herself near me, standing there behind me, or something, waiting for the cortina/tanda and I know what's up. If I really do not wish to dance with her, I get up and go to the bar or to the restroom or something like that in order to avoid the potentially unpleasant situation before it even starts playing itself out. So far, there has been no problems with that. I rationalize that that, somewhat sneaky behaviour, is like a cabeceo situation where I simply do not look at her. ...dubravko P.S. Hi "Jack" =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== ________________________________ From: Jack Dylan To: Tango-L Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 9:46:13 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... > From: Dubravko Kakarigi > > In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a > lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not > wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, > whatever). > Hi Dubravko, You don't say what your response to the lady would be. In my case, I'd have to be in real pain before I would turn down a lady's request to dance. Jack _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From petronio at adam.com.au Tue Jun 9 04:38:50 2009 From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:08:50 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal References: Message-ID: Long live the cabeceo! It protects everyone. The tradition developed for good reasons, as did the other milonga codes. The communication involved is uncomplicated body language. Difficult to teach? What's so hard about it? As long as you can make eye contact with another person, you can do it. When visiting tango communities where cabeceo use is virtually non-existent, it seems somewhat harder to get a dance. My observation is that people tend to invite only those dancers they already know (possible already knowing they would accept), because they were using the direct invitation method. Whereas the cabeceo method seems to open up the likelihood of invitations to dance to others, too. Regards to all Patricia Petronio Tango Sal?n Adelaide www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com From roger at websa.com.au Tue Jun 9 09:11:55 2009 From: roger at websa.com.au (roger) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:41:55 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal and dancing to anything. Message-ID: <004e01c9e903$dd64e340$982ea9c0$@com.au> I have turned offers of dances down, because I don't feel anything for that set of songs/tunes and consequently will not do it justice. I will however promise to dance the next tanda that "turns me on". This leads me to ask a question:- Has anyone else noticed that some people seem to dance to everything. I only want to dance to music that "turns me on" and sometimes feel emotional exhausted so use the next tanda to recover. I can remember a million years ago when frequenting discos, that people would say "this is my favourite, I have to dance to this". I often fail to see this at milongas that I go to. Some people will dance to every tanda., indiscriminately. I am interested to know if this is noted elsewhere. Roger Spence Tango Adelaide www.tangoadelaide.org From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com Sat Jun 6 03:37:40 2009 From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 03:37:40 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: Another problem I've witnessed is a man approaching a group of ladies, extending his hand directly in front of the lady he's asking to dance with and getting turned down so he simply moves to the next in line and asks her to dance? All of the ladies know that she wasn't his first choice and how does that make her feel? He just didn't want to clomp clomp clomp back across the room empty handed. Much better for everyone to get rejected from across the room if at all possible I will often get within close range of a lady and catch her eye and give her the nod. David **************Stay connected and tighten your budget with a great mobile device for under $50. Take a Peek! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100122638x1221845911x1201401556/aol?redir=http://www.getpeek.com/aol) From Andreas.Hunger at web.de Sun Jun 7 13:57:03 2009 From: Andreas.Hunger at web.de (Andreas Hunger) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:57:03 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Travelling argentine tango teacher Message-ID: <687822539@web.de> There is another travelling tango teacher in Germany. Marcelo Alvarez de Argentina :-) I didn't find much about him over the web, he seems to be a folclore dancer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oemc22NPk5g Does somebody know him? Does he have a qualification as a tango teacher beyond being argentine? Best Regards AH ___________________________________________________________________________ WEB.DE FreeDSL mit 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss f?r 17,95 Euro/mtl.! http://dsl.web.de/?ac=OM.AD.AD008K15039B7069a&mc=DSL002 From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 21:58:14 2009 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and Refusal Message-ID: <701008.4659.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ""In a setting where men are allowed to invite directly, why should women be not? Hey! We're living in the 20th century. Why should women not be allowed to invite a man, rather than sit around all night, because they're not noticed or unknown or because nobody knows how to use the Cabeceo in that place. Go women! Do it politely, not being pushy and willing to accept a refusal. Same rights, same risks. ;-)""- Melina I respectfully disagree with Melina. THe man has got to drive the dance. And so he has got to feel the dance, and he's got to like the music and like his partner. Think of it as an erection. He's got to have it and drive it... If it's up to the guy to make it more than a mediocre, ho-hum, absent minded, social dance...It's got to be Something moving.. Well then, ?he has got to feel the thing first..It has got to move him; the music, the situation, the partner..it has got to be right. And then it happens, the possible becomes the actual and both dancers have their best dance of the night. The dance that they came here for...if however, one would rather see political correctness then expect a possible political impotence.. go ahead..ask the guy..surprise him maybe he will not like the song and maybe he will feel pressure and maybe he will have to say NO THANK YOU.. It's one thing to have to learn to lead and to have to perform and to be rated as a lead with each woman one dances.. and then, NOT to be able to even choose to what music and with whom to dance...sure, the woman has got all that to live with too..but she can sit back and wait until someone shows up with the whole package..then she can make the most out of what the emboldened lead delivers..that sounds like a much more positive equation to me. In other words..please, have patience and wait, ladies. From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 14:36:41 2009 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! Message-ID: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've been following the debates on Tango-L for a year and a half. Most dramatic for me, has been the clash between Nuevo and Traditional styles of dance. The topic becomes even more confused when one observes the similarities between the two approaches..Nuevo is based on Traditional (so it says) and most of it's moves have already been seen in Traditional Tango at some time or other (in demos). The real clash, however, is on the dance floor. I have seen a small dancefloor that easily holds more than a dozen couples during a traditional social dance shrink to only able to hold 4 couples doing Nuevo...what's it all about? Well, for my part, I am finally seeing that THE clash is not between Viejo y Nuevo but rather between Social and Performance dancing..(yes, it's been said here before but I am finally 'getting' it myself, thank you.) Performance tango borrows from the Milonguero tradition and uses it as a point of departure to morph into modern dance , ballet, you name it. It uses as much of the floor as possible so as to be able to dance in the round, as it were, and please as much of the surrounding audience as possible. It is sometimes even called 'Milonguero' when in a demo performance OK, if we are in agreement on the above...it follows that; ?WHY is Show Tango taught at all???( there are reasons for it besides greed.) ?Why isn't it called Performance Tango? ?How can we help the class-goer distinguish between what is appropriate when dancing alone or with lot's of floor space and what is suitable for close quarters? ?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating with each other????????? ?ALL INPUT GRACIOUSLY LISTENED TO ? From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 10:35:56 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal and dancing to anything. In-Reply-To: <004e01c9e903$dd64e340$982ea9c0$@com.au> References: <004e01c9e903$dd64e340$982ea9c0$@com.au> Message-ID: <108133.3048.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: roger > Some people will dance to > every tanda., indiscriminately. > > Perhaps they just love to dance and/or enjoy a wider taste in tango music than you do. Jack From C21DARI at aol.com Tue Jun 9 10:45:26 2009 From: C21DARI at aol.com (C21DARI@aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:45:26 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal and dancing to anything. Message-ID: In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:12:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, roger at websa.com.au writes: Has anyone else noticed that some people seem to dance to everything In reference to that sentence on your post, I have seen dancers dancing even to the National Anthon music (very common expression in Argentina refer to those who dance to everything) some people dance tango in cruise control no feelings Dario **************Download the AOL Classifieds Toolbar for local deals at your fingertips. (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolclassifieds/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000004) From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 10:57:53 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and Refusal In-Reply-To: <701008.4659.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <701008.4659.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421866.77830.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com >? In other words..please, have > patience and wait, ladies. > Just one or two questions, Mario. Firstly, has any woman at a milonga, ever asked you to dance? If yes, how did you reply? Jack From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 10:45:23 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com > > ?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating > with each other????????? >??>?? We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor with many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available. Show Tango is for dancing a performace in front of an audience with, usually, no other couples on the dance floor. Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time. Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show dance routines for the right time and place. Jack From tango.society at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 11:29:50 2009 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:29:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: > >> From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com > >> > ?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating >> with each other???????? >>??> > > We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor with > many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available. > > Show Tango is for dancing a performace in front of an audience with, usually, > no other couples on the dance floor. > > Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time. > > Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show > dance routines for the right time and place. > > Jack > Jack, Very well stated. But ... EASIER SAID THAN DONE. The problem is that performance dances derived from social tango (e.g., nuevo) are not taught as performance dances. The instructors do not say 'this is for performance'. Instead classes and workshops are taught in conjunction with 'milongas'. The silence about appropriateness leads to performance on the milonga dance floor. Nuevo dances will argue that large movements that do not necessarily follow the line of dance are appropriate if there is sufficient space. Fine. I do not like to dance tango milonguero in a cave. It does not feel like tango unless there are other couples dancing nearby. I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation among dancers. Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues. Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the advertisement of the event. To further avoid confusion, the terminology in advertising an event should be consistent. A 'milonga' should be reserved for tango milonguero or, more broadly tango de salon (the range of variation of social tango danced in Buenos Aires milongas). Nuevo dances should develop their own name, but let me suggest one that was mentoned on another list: NUEVILONGA. This name is not only accurate, but it is really cool!! It would also help if instructors stopped called what they teach 'tango' when it is not what is danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. Call it 'nuevo'. Just think how cool that sounds. Everyone wants to dance what is new and current. Ron From syarzhuk at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 11:37:44 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:37:44 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Nuevo dances should develop their own name, but let me suggest one > that was mentoned on another list: NUEVILONGA. This name is not only > accurate, but it is really cool!! It has EVIL in it! From endzone102 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 11:49:30 2009 From: endzone102 at gmail.com (Endzone 102) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:49:30 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <694bf47d0906090849y445ae11bg3af56df9b60bb73c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois < tango.society at gmail.com> wrote: > I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation > among dancers. > > Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances > can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for > tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues. > Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the > advertisement of the event. > That's not cooperation. That's segregation. It's just not ever going to happen. Someone will always be unhappy. Perish the thought that there might be a break from the traditional tango music every two or three hours. This particular horse has been beaten to death, raised from the dead, turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer, had grass grown in it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to death. -Greg G From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 12:09:23 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel? Message-ID: <363341.78389.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 6/6/09, HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com wrote: > Another problem I've witnessed is a man approaching a group of ladies,? > extending his hand directly in front of the lady he's asking to dance with and getting turned down so he simply moves to the next in line > and asks her to?dance? All of the ladies know that she wasn't his first > choice and how does that make her feel? He just didn't want to clomp clomp clomp back across the? room empty handed.? That doesn't bother me. I'm not about to begrudge someone's friendship with someone else or someone else's skill level. Occasionally, I'll joke about it with the guy. When I'm the person that turns the guy down (excusing myself as needing a rest or something), and he moves to someone else that I'm sitting with (usually a friend), it doesn't seem to bother the other woman at all. Trini de Pittsburgh From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 12:34:15 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! Message-ID: <996273.69847.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Endzone 102 wrote: >> ? ? This particular horse has been beaten to > death, raised from the dead, > turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer, > had grass grown in > it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to > death. > > -Greg G Unfortunately, Greg, some people will never learn or refuse to. It's sorta' like those students in a class who refuse to do it the teacher's way because...well...I don't know why. Guess they're just not willing to learn. So teachers just shake their head and say to themselves, what a shame, oh well, better just spend time with those who are willing to learn. And, as had been said ad infinitum, it's not stage tango people are doing. Sometimes it's just bad tango, which can be both open and close embrace. I've rarely seen true stage tango done at a milonga. It's mostly just bad tango. Trini de Pittsburgh From azure.music at verizon.net Tue Jun 9 12:36:33 2009 From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:36:33 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: <694bf47d0906090849y445ae11bg3af56df9b60bb73c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You'd like to save the social dance? Go look at what that is. Not segregated. 1920s, 30s the big social dance era had all types of dancing at social events. It's time to stop the compartmentalization and segregation society seems to be heading towards. Totally xenophobic! Whatever happened to a renaissance style mindset? Ack we're dying because of the ultra specialization era we're living in. _A > From: Endzone 102 > Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:49:30 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois < > tango.society at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation >> among dancers. >> >> Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances >> can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for >> tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues. >> Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the >> advertisement of the event. >> > > That's not cooperation. That's segregation. It's just not ever going > to happen. Someone will always be unhappy. Perish the thought that there > might be a break from the traditional tango music every two or three hours. > > This particular horse has been beaten to death, raised from the dead, > turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer, had grass grown in > it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to death. > > -Greg G > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tango at springssauna.com Tue Jun 9 15:22:07 2009 From: tango at springssauna.com (Tango Mail) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:22:07 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Dark milongas prevent Cabeceo (was Invitation and refusal) Message-ID: <4A2EB65F.4010003@springssauna.com> Martin N. touched on this topic in his post and I'd like to re-post my question from a few months back. This is directed to all and any who host/organize milongas in the US: Why do you feel it necessary to keep the room so dark? I never received any responses to that question so I'm posting it again. I almost solely ask for dances via cabeceo; about 95% of the time. The remaining 5% I may ask someone I know well, that I am sitting next to, if they want to dance or kind of nudge them, as even uttering the words sometimes seems too hard a task for me. Maybe 5% of the time out of that above 5% I will be asked by the woman. I was asked just at the last milonga I went to, but I declined because a live band was playing, and I don't dance to live music (unless I have a partner lined up that _Wants_ to dance to live music and I don't want to miss out on _that_ person). I've gone as far as deciding not to attend any more milongas or festivals that have in the past been kept too dark for cabeceo. One of these is the Baltimore tango fest. I won't return until assured that the lighting has been taken care of. The "barn" was so dark last year that you could have fornicated in the corner without much notice or attention. I wasn't even able to make a cabeceo work from 10-feet away, so I left after one or two tandas of dancing and lots of sitting. Has no one else noticed how different peoples behavior and energy levels are at daytime or well-lit milongas, be they traditional or alternative music'ed, rather than dark cave-like environments? People are a lot more lethargic when the room is too dark. For myself I've found a good measuring stick the digital camera. If I can take a photo where you can tell who's being photographed without the flash, the room is properly lit. If you have to use a flash the room is too dark. Ta. From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 15:33:28 2009 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Dark milongas prevent Cabeceo (was Invitation and refusal) In-Reply-To: <4A2EB65F.4010003@springssauna.com> References: <4A2EB65F.4010003@springssauna.com> Message-ID: <718084.79945.qm@web32004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is probably not a secret to anyone -- there are milongas where lights are turned up at the end of the tanda and turned down after the first 30 seconds (or so) of the next tanda. It should not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From garybarn at ozemail.com.au Tue Jun 9 18:36:33 2009 From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:33 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and refusal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73055F26-6AD8-41A6-9D81-291CCF213767@ozemail.com.au> On 09/06/2009, at 3:23 AM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: > If a woman turns > down the invite, whether verbal or cabaceo, in a definitvely cold > manner, such as slowly shaking her head no, why would you ever want to > ask that woman again ? Let her dance with Gary Barn. But that was not what I was talking about. There were people here saying that if a woman says no (for any reason, in any way), then they blacklist her. Bizarre. From garybarn at ozemail.com.au Tue Jun 9 19:13:56 2009 From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:13:56 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: <694bf47d0906090849y445ae11bg3af56df9b60bb73c@mail.gmail.com> References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <694bf47d0906090849y445ae11bg3af56df9b60bb73c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0553B226-A362-43DA-AD34-B5159EA658A0@ozemail.com.au> Someone wrote: > > Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. > ... And someone else wrote: > > It's just not ever going > to happen. You might think its "not ever going to happen", but in fact it happens a lot, and pretty successfully. Particular milongas get a reputation for having plenty of space for big dancing, or for having a good flow of close couples dancing together. Sometimes for having each, at different times of the night. This can be affected by the milonga organiser's choice of venue, and of course the music. Yes, someone will always be unhappy. Its up to each organiser to decide what kind of event to run -- ie who to make happy, and who to worry less about. Alternative milongas don't worry much about people who really don't like to dance tango to alternative music; traditional milongas don't worry much about people who need lots of space or don't want to dance to traditional tango all night; some target people who are happy with a bit of everything, and leave those who only like one or the other unhappy. Both separation and integration provide choices. If you enjoy going to events where both big and small tango co-exist on the floor, then go to them, but don't be distressed if people who only like one or the other don't come. But if you prefer one or the other, then choose events that do that, and don't be distressed if people who want both don't come. As a dancer and as an organiser, I choose separation because that's what I enjoy and value. Clearly, mileage varies. GB From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 02:18:13 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? Message-ID: <100689.8453.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> To everybody, A very basic question - should Tango be danced mostly to the rhythm or the melody? Jack From damian.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 02:39:52 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:39:52 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <100689.8453.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <100689.8453.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <331CAE9D-6098-4907-A9CB-0AB290BC41F6@gmail.com> Beginners - rhythm. Pro - combination. Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere... On 10/06/2009, at 4:18 PM, Jack Dylan wrote: > > To everybody, > > A very basic question - should Tango be danced mostly to the rhythm > or the melody? > > Jack > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk Wed Jun 10 06:31:55 2009 From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:31:55 +0100 (GMT+01:00) Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and refusal Message-ID: <17406382.1244629915214.JavaMail.root@ps29> > But that was not what I was talking about. There were people here saying that if a woman says no (for any reason, in any way), then they blacklist her. It's not a question of blacklisting, but of taking no for an answer. If a woman didn't want to dance with me 10 minutes ago, or last week, or in November 1962, I assume she doesn't want to dance with me now. If she has changed her mind, she can ask me - and I *never* turn any woman down. As for the other topic, of whether to ask someone else after having been turned down: I never do. After all, I am saying: "My first choice didn't want me, so I suppose I will have to make do with you." Instead I would make for the bar as if that was where I was intending to go anyway. The only time I break this rule is when I am in a place where the dancing is on two floors, such as the old Cafe de Paris in London or the Galax in Turku. Then I would go to the other floor, where my rejection was not seen. John Ward Bristol, UK Value your online security: Get 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/securepc _______________________________________________________ From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 10:11:49 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? Message-ID: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > > To everybody, > > A very basic question - should Tango be danced mostly to > the rhythm or the melody? > > Jack Both equally. One dances to the melody but steps on the beat. Beginners have trouble finding the rhythm and need to concentrate on that more. Have you ever noticed that if you put on a romantic ballad like that Turkish tango, even beginners don't have a problem dancing to both? Trini de Pittsburgh From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 13:26:34 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com ? > One dances to the melody but steps on the beat.? > Thanks Trini, that's a great answer. Jack From christian.luethen at gmx.net Wed Jun 10 13:44:54 2009 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:44:54 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090610174454.308640@gmx.net> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com > ? > One dances to the melody but steps on the beat.? > That's like the proof of a 'function' in maths: - the beat is the necessary part. - the melody makes that it's dancing. [if someone could translate the german (maths) terms in english: - beat = 'notwendige Bedingung' - melody = 'hinreichende Bedingung'] A lot of the local dancers here in Rotterdam perform a lot of complicated steps with the music only in the background but not on/to the beat ... ... therefore it's not a 'function', em: 'dancing'. Happy *dancing*! Christian . -- GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 From abungureanu at googlemail.com Wed Jun 10 14:38:20 2009 From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:38:20 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2FFD9C.80009@googlemail.com> Am 10.06.2009 19:26 schrieb Jack Dylan : >> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com >> > > >> One dances to the melody but steps on the beat. > >> > > Thanks Trini, that's a great answer. > > It's correct, but not that simple. Someone who really knows (and can explain it) is: http://www.joaquinamenabar.com.ar/baile.html I can warmly recommend his musicality workshops for dancers. Andy From yahoo at koenigsdino.de Wed Jun 10 15:17:02 2009 From: yahoo at koenigsdino.de (Meister Richard Köhnlein (Der schnelle Shop)) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:17:02 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal References: Message-ID: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0@preiswalze1> I am living in the 21th century! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel" To: "TANGO-L digest system automatic" Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal Hey! We're living in the 20th century. From tangopeter at gmx.de Wed Jun 10 16:04:42 2009 From: tangopeter at gmx.de (Peter Turowski) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:04:42 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal References: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0@preiswalze1> Message-ID: <9732F2B8C1DB4F1A95A66F1B64653BCC@PC> > I am living in the 21th century! > Hey! We're living in the 20th century. betwixt and between... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1KEFgD6Dtg Refused Peter -- Peter Turowski tangopeter at gmx.de www.tangopeter.de From politas at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:24:01 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:01 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <4A2FFD9C.80009@googlemail.com> References: <950395.70351.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <616996.69843.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A2FFD9C.80009@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4A301661.4040909@gmail.com> Andy Ungureanu wrote: > It's correct, but not that simple. > Someone who really knows (and can explain it) is: > http://www.joaquinamenabar.com.ar/baile.html > > I can warmly recommend his musicality workshops for dancers. I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have to agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms is absolutely excellent. Well worth the price of the Book/DVD, too. And I have to say, watching him dance to a tune that he knows is just magical. Myk, in Canberra From peterwesser at oregonducks.org Wed Jun 10 16:51:38 2009 From: peterwesser at oregonducks.org (Peter Esser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:51:38 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? Message-ID: <3c81901c9ea0d$3fd64050$116a010a@mail2world.com> [if someone could translate the german (maths) terms in english: ...the translation from philosophy talk (don't know about math): >- beat = 'notwendige Bedingung' "necessary condition" >- melody = 'hinreichende Bedingung'] "sufficient condition" --Peter <-----Original Message-----> >From: \ [christian.luethen at gmx.net] >Sent: 6/10/2009 2:46:54 PM >To: Tango-L at mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? > >-------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com >> >> One dances to the melody but steps on the beat. >> > >That's like the proof of a 'function' in maths: >- the beat is the necessary part. >- the melody makes that it's dancing. > >[if someone could translate the german (maths) terms in english: >- beat = 'notwendige Bedingung' >- melody = 'hinreichende Bedingung'] > > >A lot of the local dancers here in Rotterdam perform a lot of complicated steps with the music only in the >background but not on/to the beat ... >.... therefore it's not a 'function', em: 'dancing'. > > > >Happy *dancing*! > >Christian > > >.. >-- >GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! >Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l >. > > From tangoartist at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:02:25 2009 From: tangoartist at gmail.com (Kathryn Johns) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:02:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal In-Reply-To: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0@preiswalze1> References: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0@preiswalze1> Message-ID: <370d16c10906101402j6720b89cwb94c7ca8ac4c3fba@mail.gmail.com> Most of us are. That may explain a lot! Kathryn 2009/6/10 Meister Richard K?hnlein (Der schnelle Shop) : > I am living in the 21th century! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel" > To: "TANGO-L digest system automatic" > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:40 PM > Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal > > > Hey! We're living in the 20th century. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From christian.luethen at gmx.net Wed Jun 10 17:04:33 2009 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:04:33 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <3c81901c9ea0d$3fd64050$116a010a@mail2world.com> References: <3c81901c9ea0d$3fd64050$116a010a@mail2world.com> Message-ID: <20090610210433.308680@gmx.net> Also in maths, Peter! A mathematician has contacted me off-list (but I did not have the time to post it myself in the meantime). Interesting enough: that mathematician is *not* on the list but stumble upon my posting through some other google-search! How fast is google up-to-date on those mailing lists? Spooky! =;-o I wish you all happy dances which meet both the necessary as well the sufficient conditions! Christian -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:51:38 -0700 > Von: "Peter Esser" > An: christian.luethen at gmx.net > CC: Tango-L at mit.edu > Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? > [if someone could translate the german (maths) terms in english: > > ...the translation from philosophy talk (don't know about math): > > >- beat = 'notwendige Bedingung' > "necessary condition" > >- melody = 'hinreichende Bedingung'] > "sufficient condition" > > --Peter > > > <-----Original Message-----> > >From: \ [christian.luethen at gmx.net] > >Sent: 6/10/2009 2:46:54 PM > >To: Tango-L at mit.edu > >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? > > > >-------- Original-Nachricht -------- > >> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com > >> > >> One dances to the melody but steps on the beat. > >> > > > >That's like the proof of a 'function' in maths: > >- the beat is the necessary part. > >- the melody makes that it's dancing. > > > >[if someone could translate the german (maths) terms in english: > >- beat = 'notwendige Bedingung' > >- melody = 'hinreichende Bedingung'] > > > > > >A lot of the local dancers here in Rotterdam perform a lot of > complicated steps with the music only in the > >background but not on/to the beat ... > >.... therefore it's not a 'function', em: 'dancing'. > > > > > > > >Happy *dancing*! > > > >Christian > > > > > >.. > >-- > >GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! > >Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 > >_______________________________________________ > >Tango-L mailing list > >Tango-L at mit.edu > >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > >. > > > > -- *********************************************** christian.luethen at gmx.net *********************************************** How inappropriate to call this planet earth ... ... as clearly it is ocean! *********************************************** GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Wed Jun 10 18:24:19 2009 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:24:19 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Dark milongas prevent Cabeceo References: <4A2EB65F.4010003@springssauna.com> Message-ID: <1E6D6C2D65734536A1135A1CD0080811@michaelditkoff> Ta: The issue is more than just lighting. Very few people use cabeceo.Some people look comatose while they wait for a dance. They don't look around the room for a partner, they just stare into the dance floor. It's just like ballroom. Women just wait to be asked. Never mind that it would help to show some interest that they want to dance. Some look absolutely amazed when they are asked. With cabeceo, it's 50-50. It's not entirely the man's responsibility to ask. The woman has an active role. It seems that women feel their role is to wait-- and wait-- until a tango knight rescues them. Michael I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tango Mail" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:22 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Dark milongas prevent Cabeceo (was Invitation and refusal) Why do you feel it necessary to keep the room so dark? I've gone as far as deciding not to attend any more milongas or festivals that have in the past been kept too dark for cabeceo. One of these is the Baltimore tango > fest. I won't return until assured that the lighting has been taken care > of. The "barn" was so dark last year that you could have fornicated in > the corner without much notice or attention. I wasn't even able to make > a cabeceo work from 10-feet away, so I left after one or two tandas of > dancing and lots of sitting. > Ta. From garybarn at ozemail.com.au Wed Jun 10 19:14:32 2009 From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:14:32 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation and refusal In-Reply-To: <17406382.1244629915214.JavaMail.root@ps29> References: <17406382.1244629915214.JavaMail.root@ps29> Message-ID: John said: > > It's not a question of blacklisting, but of taking no for an answer. > If a woman didn't want to dance with me 10 minutes ago, or last week, > or in November 1962, I assume she doesn't want to dance with me now. I suppose I have less absolute settings. There are some women where I'm pretty sure they don't like dancing with me at all. I might try again in a year or two, I might not. But most of the time, they do not say yes for any of a number of reasons - like I listed before: > The music, the floor, my mood, phase of the moon, how > she dances; how her dancing is affected by the music, the floor, my > mood, the phase of the moon... It would be silly for me to interpret her past "no" as a current one. The reason I reacted so strongly to the original suggestion was because it sounded like bullying - "don't say no to anyone or we'll boycott you". And I know that it has that effect on some women. Then they say yes to a dance when they mean no, which is bad for everyone. And if I never asked again, with every woman who had ever said no to me, there would very little dancing happening. Including with many women who I know want to dance me. November 1962 was a long time ago. Maybe her feet aren't so sore now, or the music has got better, or your dancing. Give it a shot. Gary From damian.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 19:58:11 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:58:11 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <20090610210433.308680@gmx.net> References: <3c81901c9ea0d$3fd64050$116a010a@mail2world.com> <20090610210433.308680@gmx.net> Message-ID: Dancing on the beat is definitely a beginning place.... hence why I say beginners. Obviously as you become more skilled, you can dance to both more levels and more instruments and specific instruments have specific actions..... ?Joaquin Amenabar will also confirm this. This is also taught by Naveira, Arce, Chicho, Gonzalez and really, any teacher that understands the music and what happens with each instrument - not forgetting the voice. Dancing to vocals is one of the most enjoyable aspects of tango and takes a great deal of skill. Understanding them, even better ;-) Often, you will have the leader dancing the beat, the follower the melody, but just as often it is reversed (watch Arce Montes for this especially in Milonga Criolle - recent youtube posting - sorry, no link... at work). Sometimes dance the piano, othertimes, the violin and most consistently, of course, the bandoneon. Enjoy your dancing Damian From geoffww at bigpond.net.au Wed Jun 10 21:43:17 2009 From: geoffww at bigpond.net.au (Geoff Walker) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:43:17 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? Message-ID: <4A306135.5070309@bigpond.net.au> I too can recommend his book + DVD, but unfortunately it seems that it is now sold out, at least temporarily : http://www.joaquinamenabar.com/ Geoff Walker Sydney Myk Dowling wrote : Andy Ungureanu wrote: > It's correct, but not that simple. > Someone who really knows (and can explain it) is: > http://www.joaquinamenabar.com.ar/baile.html > > I can warmly recommend his musicality workshops for dancers. I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have to agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms is absolutely excellent. Well worth the price of the Book/DVD, too. And I have to say, watching him dance to a tune that he knows is just magical. Myk, in Canberra From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 01:10:11 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? Message-ID: <544360.73051.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > ? > > One dances to the melody but steps on the beat.? > > > > Thanks Trini, that's a great answer. > > Jack > A friend of mine shared that gem with me after he attended workshops with Miguel Zotto (I think) years ago. Wish I had been a tango gypsy then. Trini de Pittsburgh From christian.luethen at gmx.net Thu Jun 11 09:50:14 2009 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:50:14 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: [bandoneon] Carlos Lazzari dies at age 83 Message-ID: <20090611135014.321760@gmx.net> sad news from the bandoneon-list! RIP christian -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [bandoneon] Carlos Lazzari dies at age 83 Carlos Lazzari, Bandoneonista, Composor, Arranger, Teacher, and Friend died Tuesday night June 9, 2009 in Buenos Aires of pancreatitis. Lazzari began his career Osmar Maderna's orchestra in the 1940's, and went on to play in the orchestras of Miguel Cal?, Edgardo Donato, Francisco Canaro, Radio Splendid (with Maximo Mori and Roberto Di Felippo), and Juan D'Arienzo where he spent 25 years as 1st bandoneon, solosit, arranger, and composer. He later went on to direct and arrange for Los Solistas de D'Arienzo and bandoneonista y arranger for Cafe de los Maestros. For the last several years he has played nearly every night a La Ventana in San Telmo. His most famous tangos include Juli?, Castigo y pasi?n, La misma canci?n, el vals De Vuelta, Este es el Rey, and many more. He will be missed by his colleagues, family, students, and friends. **-- Castellano --** Carlos L?zzari, Bandoneonista, Compositor, Arreglador, Maestro, y amigo fallecio por la tarde el martes 9 de de Junio, 2009 en Buenos Aires de pancreatitis. L?zzari incici? su carrera en la orquesta de Osmar Maderna el los 40, y segio a tocar el las orquestas de Miguel Cal?, Edgardo Donato, Francisco Canaro, Radio Splendid (con Maximo Mori y Roberto Di Felippo), y Juan D'Arienzo donde quedo por 25 a?os como bandoneon primero a, solista, arreglador, y compositor. Duespues fue director y bandoneon de los Solistas de D'Arienzo y bandoneonista y arreglador par el Cafe de los Maestros. Por los ultimos a?os toco casi todas las noches en La Ventana de San Telmo. Sus tangos mas famosos son Juli?, Castigo y pasi?n, La misma canci?n, el vals De Vuelta, Este es el Rey, entre muchos mas. Va a estar extra?ando por sus colegas, familia, alumnos, y amigos. ------------------------------------ -- *********************************************** christian.luethen at gmx.net *********************************************** How inappropriate to call this planet earth ... ... as clearly it is ocean! *********************************************** GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 From tango at tangodesalon.de Thu Jun 11 12:37:04 2009 From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:37:04 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] 20th century girl... Message-ID: <817CC68C-7657-4EC8-B8B9-515B32DFF42F@tangodesalon.de> ARGH!!! Now that was a freudian! But when I think about it: I listen to 70s and 80s music, I dance Tango... I AM actually living in the 20th century.... But - what the hell - women's liberation and the cabeceo where invented in the 20th century. And Tango too... :-)) Cheers, Melina Message: 4 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:17:02 +0200 From: "Meister Richard K?hnlein (Der schnelle Shop)" Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal To: Message-ID: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0 at preiswalze1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am living in the 21th century! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel" To: "TANGO-L digest system automatic" Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal Hey! We're living in the 20th century. From christian.luethen at gmx.net Thu Jun 11 12:59:12 2009 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:59:12 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] 20th century girl... In-Reply-To: <817CC68C-7657-4EC8-B8B9-515B32DFF42F@tangodesalon.de> References: <817CC68C-7657-4EC8-B8B9-515B32DFF42F@tangodesalon.de> Message-ID: <20090611165912.106320@gmx.net> Sorry to correct you, Melina, but you're actually living in the 21st century! ;-) Christian > ARGH!!! > Now that was a freudian! > > But when I think about it: I listen to 70s and 80s music, I dance > Tango... I AM actually living in the 20th century.... > But - what the hell - women's liberation and the cabeceo where > invented in the 20th century. And Tango too... > > :-)) > > Cheers, > > Melina > > > > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:17:02 +0200 > From: "Meister Richard K?hnlein (Der schnelle Shop)" > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal > To: > Message-ID: <036f01c9ea00$1e1ebbc0$16b2a8c0 at preiswalze1> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I am living in the 21th century! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel" > To: "TANGO-L digest system automatic" > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:40 PM > Subject: [Tango-L] Invitation & refusal > > > Hey! We're living in the 20th century. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- *********************************************** christian.luethen at gmx.net *********************************************** How inappropriate to call this planet earth ... ... as clearly it is ocean! *********************************************** GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 From vytis at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 17:52:29 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:52:29 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:01 +1000 > From: Myk Dowling > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Message-ID: <4A301661.4040909 at gmail.com> > I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have to > agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms is > absolutely excellent. Thanks Myk. Last night I talked to a guy from Melbourne who attended the festival. He said that there was one Argentinean teacher couple there who were so average not only as teachers but as performers too, that he changed classes. I guess this was reflected in the comment in the latest Canberra tango newsletter? Seems you got a gem with Joaquin. The Melbourne guy said besides the hiccup, the event was better organized this year than last. That is good to hear. Vince From politas at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 19:54:07 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:54:07 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A31991F.7060307@gmail.com> Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > Last night I talked to a guy from Melbourne who attended the > festival. He said that there was one Argentinean teacher couple there who > were so average not only as teachers but as performers too, that he changed > classes. Yes, I was booked for three workshops with that couple, but only went to two in the end. I really didn't need the mental aggravation another hour and a half of their posturing and failure to actually teach would have left me with. > I guess this was reflected in the comment in the latest Canberra > tango newsletter? Seems you got a gem with Joaquin. Yes. "Mixed responses" would be a diplomatic way of putting it. I certainly fall in the category of "outraged that I contributed to paying for their airfare." I did manage to learn a couple of things from their workshops, but it was in spite of their "teaching", not because of it. Just goes to prove that winning championships doesn't mean you can teach. I won't make a comment about their performances, because performances don't really interest me. I much prefer dancing to watching someone else doing a partially or fully rehearsed dance sequence. I didn't even bother watching the performances on Friday night. Just got out my phone and read for a bit. Myk, in Canberra From politas at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 00:07:08 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:07:08 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] [Fwd: Re: Aus International TangoFest] Message-ID: <4A31D46C.8030206@gmail.com> Apologies for the following paragraph from my previous message to the list. I was mixing up the biographies of the two couples teaching at the Aus International Tango Fest. > Just goes to prove that winning championships doesn't mean you can > teach. In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I hear they were excellent. Myk, in Canberra From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 01:58:07 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest In-Reply-To: <4A31991F.7060307@gmail.com> References: <4A31991F.7060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <153956.27946.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Myk Dowling > > Yes, I was booked for three workshops with that couple, but only went to > two in the end. I really didn't need the mental aggravation another hour > and a half of their posturing and failure to actually teach would have > left me with. > Why no names? I understand it's acceptable on Tango-L to critique Tango instructors, good or bad. Jack From al at sgi.com Fri Jun 12 03:54:02 2009 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:54:02 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! In-Reply-To: References: <950007.55413.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <327687.3489.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A32099A.3050005@sgi.com> Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote: > Very well stated. But ... EASIER SAID THAN DONE. > > The problem is that performance dances derived from social tango > (e.g., nuevo) are not taught as performance dances. The instructors do > not say 'this is for performance'. Instead classes and workshops are > taught in conjunction with 'milongas'. The silence about > appropriateness leads to performance on the milonga dance floor. That's not the cause of the problem. I know followers who can do boleos without ever lifting their foot and moving it only a couple of inches outward, and I can dance some "performance" figures in very little room (and others I can't). A lot I also have to modify so as to not disturb the line of dance (the frequent problem I can see with people doing some "figures" is that they seem to want to initiate them in the exact orientation they were taught, without regard for where they'll end up. They also seem to be unable to break them up into smaller parts that can be assembled at will depending on circumstances.) All it requires is the right attitude (respect for the space of others on the dance floor and the ronda), not a different catalogue of steps. > Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances > can be held on large floors where the density is low. There's no need to pigeon-hole anything if you're sensible. A given floor doesn't have the same density at 10pm and 3am as it has at 1am. Even a given tanda attracts a different public and causes a different floor density. > Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the > advertisement of the event. > Mhhh - what next? Separate dance events for people who step on the ball of their feet and people who step heel first? I don't like those rigid pigeon holes one little bit. Tango is a subculture that's small enough as is, and I do think that cross-fertilisation between different styles is interesting. We can all learn a lot from others in this dance, and I don't necessarily want everyone at a milonga to behave like I do (I don't need the comfort of feeling I'm doing "just like the others" which makes me "right" as defined by my "peers"). People who don't respect the space of others should be whacked - and that even applies to me when I'm out of line (it does happen - sometimes the music and a particularly GOOD connection with a dance partner makes you enter a trance that's not good for your awareness of others). And people should be taught to adapt to circumstances. But it can't really be taught in classes. That's something you can only learn by walking your kilometres in milongas. Approach milongas with an open mind and enough humility, and in the end you'll be fine - after having learned from your mistakes. Usually, if you're gracious about your gaffes people will tolerate them (to a point - not if you continue to be blatantly ignoring what you do unto others). And then once you'll be more experienced you'll bump into people who've had less experience with a dance floor and be irritated by them. Then is the time to remember how pathetic your floor navigation skills were when *you* started and to be lenient. All of that has little to do with style. I know close-embrace dancers who can be just as rude as open-frame dancers at milongas. Especially when they're so convinced they're the ones doing "real" social tango that it gives them a huge sense of entitlement. Awareness. That's what counts. And yes, teachers *should* make their pupils aware of things and what counts on a social dance floor. One gripe I have (and that happens indeed more often with teachers teaching a style closer to "performance") is they sometimes teach patterns that change your final orientation without making people *aware* that you have to bolt on something at the beginning or the end or adjust the leading or trailing steps to "get back" in the ronda - I don't have a crusade against back steps, but if you want to make them of normal length try to turn 135? first against the line of dance so that they become forward steps - and be sure there's room... But their pupils *will* still have to walk to walk to really understand, no matter how much they're told. From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 10:54:24 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest Message-ID: <726711.36771.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > Why no names? I understand it's acceptable on Tango-L to > critique > Tango instructors, good or bad. > > Jack Politeness, willing to give teachers the benefit of a doubt. For those curious, there's google. In a forum like this, however, it pays to be careful of criticizing teaching couples because it might be unfair. Perhaps they were having a bad day. Perhaps someone wasn't feeling that well and it took a lot for them just to get out of bed. Perhaps they got bad news that morning and their head wasn't in the right place. Perhaps the problem was the student and not the teacher. I know of one couple whose first try at teaching in the States did not go well at all. However, they were open to criticism, improved during the weekend, and I've invited them to teach here multiple times. Public criticism of their initial workshops would have been unfair, don't you think? When one offers criticism, though, it should be constructive. Just saying "they suck" isn't going to tell anyone anything useful. Was it the lack of details, inability to control the class, indifference to students, imbalance of teaching patterns versus technique? If the person was standing right in front of you, what would you say to help that person improve? Wouldn't you want that person to become a better teacher? Also, the fault lies a lot with the organizer(s), too. As an organizer myself, I make sure visiting teachers are given the info they need to shine and to make a good match between the teachers and the intended audience. I've seen what happens with organizers who just let the teacher do his/her own thing. I mean, what if you knew a new event was being organized by Tom Stermitz or Clay Nelson? You know what you can expect. Trini de Pittsburgh From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 11:33:00 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification Message-ID: <177399.83211.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > >I mean, > what if you knew a new event was being organized by Tom > Stermitz or Clay Nelson????You know what you > can expect. > > Trini de Pittsburgh I should clarify for those not living in the US that Tom and Clay run the Denver and Portland tangofests, respectively, and are highly regarded tango organizers. Trini From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 11:42:12 2009 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:42:12 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback In-Reply-To: <726711.36771.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <726711.36771.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My personal preference is that names should be used. Criticism, whether valid or not, is important market information, and it's one of the only ways tango consumers can evaluate potential teachers. In this forum it often happens that when one list member posts a negative review, other members who have had positive experiences will post with their counter examples. In this way readers of the list get all sides of the story and can make up their own minds as to who's biased, who had a bad experience because of other factors, etc. This is what being an informed consumer is all about, and the internet lists like this one are a perfect way to facilitate that. To filter posts to be "fair" or PC pollutes the process IMO and denies a voice to those who had a genuine bad experience, and in the process it withholds information that might be completely valid in helping other members make informed decisions. No one has ever suggested withholding names when someone has positive feedback. If you withhold names when you have a negative comment, the result is the list becomes just another biased collection of marketing hype. I don't want the government or business establishments or members of this list to manipulate information. I want to make my own decisions and judgments about the validity of any given piece of data. But if the information is withheld, I can't do that. The promise of the internet is that it flattens the field and has the potential to so widely distribute information that everyone can make more informed choices. There are undoubtedly messy problems at times, but if the doors are open, sooner or later the Truth will out. Filtering or withholding information only clouds the issues and corrupts the process. J _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 12:07:56 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest Message-ID: <154705.37528.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > > > Politeness, willing to give teachers the benefit of a doubt.? For those curious, > there's google. > > In a forum like this, however, it pays to be careful of criticizing teaching > couples because it might be unfair.? Perhaps they were having a bad day.? > Trini, I'd agree when it comes to local teachers; maybe they're doing it because there's nobody else available and they're trying to build a Tango community from scratch. But when it comes to visiting teachers and the organisers have to pay air fares, accommodation, etc.,?it can be a big investment and I think they're entitled to expect a certain standard. Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available. Yes, you can see them dance on YouTube but that says nothing about how they teach. ? Just my opinion.? Jack From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 12:36:20 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback Message-ID: <918097.96572.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jay Rabe wrote: > No one has ever suggested withholding names when someone > has positive feedback. If you withhold names when you have a > negative comment, the result is the list becomes just > another biased collection of marketing hype. I agree with many of your points, but with the internet it's also easy enough for people to figure the names out. Enough info was given. If posters are reluctant to name names, I don't have a problem with that. The festival just happened, so it can be a little uncomfortable to be specific. A little too close. Perhaps more time is needed to digest the events of the festival and put things in perspective. A reconciliation between expectations and reality. I think that's okay. Trini de Pittsburgh From c.roques at mchsi.com Fri Jun 12 12:39:46 2009 From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:39:46 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) Message-ID: <061220091639.22586.4A3284D1000F40D30000583A223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com> I agree with J about speaking openly about one's experiences with teachers, organizers and the like. ?It doesn't have to be mean-spirited, or foul mouthed or insult their mother, but the truth is informative, even if it is negative. ?I disagree with the monitoring of this list but I accept the rules, but that doesn't mean one should sugar-coat everything. ?It is just as counter-productive to falsely praise dancers and teachers who don't deserve it. ?Being nice just for the sake of not alienating anyone just creates a lot of bad dancers and big egos. ?Tango is a meritocracy and good dancers have paid their dues and worked for their reputations. ?I have seen plenty of charlatans and hustlers passing themselves off as experienced tango dancers, and sadly most of them were from Buenos Aires. ?Many have padded their resumes and claimed to have been dancing for years when in reality they started only recently when they realized they could make money. ?One dancer, instead of equating complex or difficult steps with skill level, gave them monetary value: ?that step is a $50 step; ?that one is a $75 step. ?In other words if you would pay him, he'd teach it to you even if he knew you couldn't really execute it.? ?Ten or twelve years ago many dancers and organizers themselves were beginners and often couldn't tell good dancing from a quickly put together piece of choreography, and some still can't. ?The level has changed a lot since those days but not the chicanery. ?Just because you had a good experience doesn't mean someone else did not, or even that your perception was correct. Charles From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 13:17:55 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - organizing Message-ID: <449944.79608.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jack Dylan wrote: >> > Trini, > > I'd agree when it comes to local teachers; maybe they're > doing it because there's nobody else available and they're trying to build a Tango community from scratch. But when it comes to visiting teachers and the organisers have to pay air fares, accommodation, etc.,?it can be a big investment and I think they're entitled to expect a certain standard. Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available. > Jack This will be my last post for the day. If an organizer is doing his job (which is part of what workshops attendees pay for), then he can get the information. It's networking, talking with others, doing internet searches for interviews/email posting/past workshops, talking with the teachers. Trust me, the information is out there. Organizers and teachers are partners in these ventures and should work as such. Organizer can't merely expect a certain standard. They make it happen. Yes, it is a big investment for both the organizer and the attendees. It needs to be treated as such. During the event, I always get feedback after the first workshops and relay it to teachers, both the good and bad. I have to say that every single teacher that I've had to correct has responded well and performed better in subsequent workshops. It's not easy for teachers to come into a different community and immediately assess what a bunch of strangers need or want or how they learn. They need help and that's the organizer's job. Trini de Pittsburgh From brick at fastpack.com Fri Jun 12 13:21:38 2009 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:21:38 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest Message-ID: Myk, in Canberra wrote: > In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I > hear they were excellent. Jay Rabe wrote: > My personal preference is that names should be used. Jack Dylan wrote > Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available. And google showed the Aus International Tango festival had 2 Argentine Couples Teaching http://www.tangofest.com.au/Teachers.html "Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi" are the teachers that were not champions. Gee....That was hard. From dchester at charter.net Fri Jun 12 13:22:46 2009 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:22:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback Message-ID: <20090612132246.NKR03.152899.root@mp13> > From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" > I know of one couple whose first try at teaching in the States did not go well > at all. However, they were open to criticism, improved during the weekend, and > I've invited them to teach here multiple times. Public criticism of their > initial workshops would have been unfair, don't you think? No, I don't think that honest public criticism is unfair. I think that wasting time and money on a bad class is unfair, though. > When one offers criticism, though, it should be constructive. Just saying "they > suck" isn't going to tell anyone anything useful. Was it the lack of details, > inability to control the class, indifference to students, imbalance of teaching > patterns versus technique? If the person was standing right in front of you, > what would you say to help that person improve? Wouldn't you want that person > to become a better teacher? On this point we agree. And to go a step further, when criticising you can also point out what was good about the teachers or the class. That way the reader will get a more balanced perspective. FWIW, most of my classes/workshops have been either good or very good. Regards, David From brick at fastpack.com Fri Jun 12 13:38:55 2009 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:38:55 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Observtions of a partictular workshop. Message-ID: I recently attended a weekend workshop series being taught by a famous show dancer. When he started the series, he watched the class dance, then started teaching fundamentals of social tango at a level that was appropriate for the class. I thought "great! this will be good." As the weekend progressed, it became pretty obvious that many of the students in the class were not interested in what he was teaching, and wanted his flashy show stuff. He's a very good entertainer, and I watched him shift his teaching to fulfill the desires of the majority of the class. I watched him keep trying to come back back to fundamentals, and watched the class keep losing interest, till he changed approach. By the time the weekend was over, he was teaching lots of very difficult showy stuff that most of the students in the class would never be able to do well, but they loved trying. So..... Was this a poor teacher, or a great entertainer & businessman giving the audience what they wanted? I certainly learned a lot from watching him teach. IMHO there are teachers who perform as a way to advertise, and performers who teach as way to make money. Disclaimer: This is simply my observation, and I may be totally wrong. From vytis at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 19:21:04 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:21:04 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay and Jack, I was not there this year so I can not comment. Brick has Googled the information on who the teachers were at this years festival. Still, all fairness to Trini, they may have had *a* bad day, but several reports from participants over the 4 day festival should not be ignored. Negative feed back to the organisers last year, especially about Los Hermanos Macana who wanted to have a good old time, turn up late to a class hung-over, play the piano during class and forget about teaching tango, was given at the time by many. It hopefully was acted upon, by them never having them invited again, but the complaints at the time for refund of the money spent on a wasted class was never acknowledged. It left a sour taste in at least 3 international attendees who said they would never return to the festival. It must be difficult to be an organiser at times and satisfy everyone. Cheers From vytis at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 19:28:12 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:28:12 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Aus International TangoFest - clarification Message-ID: Oh BTW, The couple named the weekend before taught at the New Zealand Tango Festival http://www.nztangofestival.co.nz/teachers.html Maybe they were just tired? Be interesting to get a different perspective from NZ Cheers -------------------------------------------------- From: "Vince Bagusauskas" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:21 AM To: Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 19:30:40 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:30:40 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Brick Robbins wrote: > Myk, ?in Canberra wrote: >> In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I >> hear they were excellent. > > Jay Rabe wrote: >> My personal preference is that names should be used. > > Jack Dylan wrote >> ?Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available. > > And google showed the Aus International Tango festival had ?2 > Argentine Couples Teaching http://www.tangofest.com.au/Teachers.html > > "Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi" are the teachers that were not champions. > > Gee....That was hard. The trouble is, someone says he got the bios mixed up, someone else uses the word "gem" and I cannot tell if he's using the word straight or with sarcasm, so now I am totally confused, and will just assume both couples suck. So the good couple has been done a disservice. I think I would have preferred naming names to avoid any confusion. All the dropping of "hints" to avoid that is just a copout anyway, because ostensibly the hints are supposed to lead the reader to identification of whom is being talked about. I mean, it's like, "I don't want to mention any names because I am far too nice to criticize someone publicly, but here is enough data to reveal who it is anyway." Seems kind of hypocritical. So maybe it's better to say nothing at all or else come clean with everything, I don't know. Huck From petronio at adam.com.au Fri Jun 12 20:35:06 2009 From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:05:06 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest References: Message-ID: Allow me to say that Cristina Sosa and Daniel Nacucchio, winners of World Tango Championship (Tango Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Tango Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Milonga) and the Japan Open (Tango Salon) in 2008, were outstanding teachers and performers at the recent festival. As teachers, their lessons were well prepared & appropriate to the level of workshop participants. Their workshops focussed on dancing that is appropriate for the milonga, including musicality and codes of the milonga.They communicated effectively, using humour appropriately, and they were warm and very generous with their attention to participants, constantly moving around and helping people, despite the popularity of their classes. I should add that this view was shared by everyone I spoke to at the event. To top it off, they're really nice people! Here's a video of one of their winning performances http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=http://blog.t4ngo.com/ The festival organiser, Lilian Jimenez, is to be congratulated for bringing them to Australia. Patricia Petronio Tango Sal?n Adelaide www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com From damian.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 21:31:25 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:31:25 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with Pat completely on the perspectives of the participants... THEY all loved Daniel and Cristina... Apart from 1 person that I spoke to - NOONE enjoyed the classes by Geraldine and Ezequiel. They were rude, arrogant and dismissive. Attacking individuals (more Ezequiel) and highlighting what individuals did wrong and not correcting them in the centre of the class.... This was also the exact same feedback that was received from all the Aussies that went to NZ to have classes with them there. Sad, but true. I personally had high expectations, they were completely shattered. ON the other hand, if you wish to learn about Stage Craft, Choreography, then Mario Morales was brilliant. There was a little too much 'us' time and I would have preferred more theory and examples of theory - maybe video, but it was brilliant. He coached the 2008 Stage winners and also 2 other couples in the top 20 of the Stage final (escenario). That in itself is a great achievement not to mention the countless professional shows that he has done. Damian 2009/6/13 Pat Petronio : > Allow me to say that Cristina Sosa and Daniel Nacucchio, winners of World > Tango Championship (Tango Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Tango > Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Milonga) and the Japan Open (Tango > Salon) in 2008, were outstanding teachers and performers at the recent > festival. > > As teachers, their lessons were well prepared & appropriate to the level of > workshop participants. Their workshops focussed on dancing that is > appropriate for the milonga, including musicality and codes of the > milonga.They communicated effectively, using humour appropriately, and they > were warm and very generous with their attention to participants, constantly > moving around and helping people, despite the popularity of their classes. > > I should add that this view was shared by everyone I spoke to at the event. > To top it off, they're really nice people! > > Here's a video of one of their winning performances > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=http://blog.t4ngo.com/ > > The festival organiser, Lilian Jimenez, is to be congratulated for bringing > them to Australia. > > Patricia Petronio > Tango Sal?n Adelaide > www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com Tue Jun 9 22:15:29 2009 From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:15:29 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Let's save the social dance! Message-ID: From: HBBOOGIE1 To: sopelote at yahoo.com Sent: 6/9/2009 6:05:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! Nuevo and Traditional styles of dance? There is nothing nuevo about nuevo it's just a bunch of bad dancers doing their own thing and calling it nuevo. They have taken traditional salon steps and bastardized them. They don't respect the line of dance and they certainly don't respect other dancers. It is impossible for them to exist in harmony with traditional tango. We all know what happens to a calm floor when a "nuevo" shows up. A better name would be "Payasos" Clowns rather then Nuevo. A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322977x1201367197/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JunestepsfooterNO62) From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com Fri Jun 12 17:20:44 2009 From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:20:44 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Tango Teachers Message-ID: From: HBBOOGIE1 To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: 6/12/2009 9:55:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time Subj: Tango Teachers Tango Teachers are a strange lot. One thing they all have in common is a lack of certification, wait a minute ?. They don?t need any certification. Lets see I?ve had six group classes with a local teacher I feel like I dance pretty good I think I?ll have some business cards printed up with a slick picture of me in tango attire and start teaching. I?ve witnessed this time and again and it really ticks me off and it?s not only the beginners who profess to be teachers but it?s also those who claim to be experienced who have traveled to or originated from BsAs and studied under many of the great dancers. I?ve traveled to BsAs many times and studied with the great Roberto He rrera. Now that would look good on my resume but the truth is I had one group lesson with Roberto in 2002. Am I qualified to teach?No What I do when choosing a teacher is watch them dance and decide for myself if I feel they are good dancers and more important are they dancing a style I like. A good example for me would be Facundo Posadas I love how he dances and wanted to learn all I could about his style. I know what you?re thinking?just because someone dances well doesn?t mean they can teach well you?re absolutely right. I?ve had classes (class) with great dancers who were not good instructors. It?s your job to determine it that teacher is the one for you. You being a pretty experienced dancer can make that informed decision but what about that poor beginner who doesn?t know the difference between good and bad tango? This is a problem all over the world and it?s not going to go away. So what can we as a tango community do? Make a black list and pass it out at milongas warning people about certain teachers we don?t like? I don?t think so. Post their names and locations on tango forums? Not a good idea. Hire a guy named Big Tony to break their legs? That one could work?..Probably not Okay so what?s the solution? I don?t know if there is a solution. I do know that it produces bad dancers that disrupt the floor for the rest of us. I just had an idea?. Getting into a milonga could require taking a test like the SATs for getting into college. Score too low go back and learn more floor craft or how to lead ochos or whatever. We can even ban those that dance Nuevo?now that really would be a good thing. Oh well just wishful thinking. It?s always going to be the way it is. Do you think back in 1885 in San Telmo BsAs at the regular Saturday night Milonga they would sit around the dance floor drinking Mate and bitch about the new guy doing the high boleos and not respecting the line of dance?.NO, someone would whip out a knife and cut him?ahhh the good old days. Shop Dell's full line of Laptops now starting at $349! **************Shop Dell?s full line of Laptops now starting at $349! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221881320x1201406166/aol?redir=http:%2F%2 Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215218036%3B37264217%3Bz) From arborlaw at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 12:13:06 2009 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:13:06 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody? In-Reply-To: <100689.8453.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <100689.8453.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A327E92.3010508@comcast.net> If you are a follow, this depends on the skills of the leader, and what's appropriate for the music. The orthodox answer would be to say that the feet should always be in rhythm, but the lead should be choosing to fit figures to the phrases of melody. That requires a medium to high understanding of music and medium to high level of expressing musicality. Beginning leads should stick to the basics. Rhythm dancing is definitely suggested by certain orchestras with certain songs with a pronounced habanera. Other orchestras and tangos are more lyrical and the rhythm backbone is light to nonexistent in some places. Heavy rhythm can be kind of draconian. Not fun to do traspies and nothing more all the way down the side of a long ballroom. I have had tangos where the lead syncopates the feet, drops steps, or dances more slowly than the beat for a phrase or two, then picks the rhythm back up. If he communicates it, I can do it. Those dances, are they 'rhythmic'? They are fantastic. With other leads trying this, it's a disaster. In open frame dance forms, such as lindy and salsa, I myself can choose whether to dance to the saxophone as opposed to the drums, but only with a partner who understands what I'm doing and is confident I will be in the right place on 1. In tango, I'm pretty much dependent on the skills of the leader to choose whether I dance to rhythm or the phrase. Jack Dylan wrote: > To everybody, > > A very basic question - should Tango be danced mostly to the rhythm or the melody? > > Jack > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd, Esq. VP/General Counsel Loud Feed, Inc. | http://loudfeed.com Principal, Arborlaw PLC | http://arborlaw.biz 734.717.4646 v 734.786.1241 f From DocDAS at aol.com Sat Jun 13 18:25:53 2009 From: DocDAS at aol.com (DocDAS@aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:25:53 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] The Optimum Lighting For the Cabaceo or Should You Cabaceo or Fornicate Message-ID: Ta wrote: The "barn" was so dark last year that you could have fornicated in > the corner without much notice or attention. I wasn't even able to make > a cabeceo work from 10-feet away, so I left after one or two tandas of > dancing and lots of sitting. "Fornicating in the corner!!" Now that's the kind of milongat where the cabaceo is definitely passe. I'd advise you to bring a flashlight of even better a miners helmets to these darkly lit milongas! Or wear a button saying 'I give Cabeceo'!! I'd also advise you to see your ophthalmologist and have your 'nigh vision' checked. Eating lots of carrots is also helpful .Lighten Up! Dan **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377049x1201454365/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JunestepsfooterNO62) From roger at websa.com.au Sat Jun 13 19:59:05 2009 From: roger at websa.com.au (roger) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:29:05 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance! Message-ID: <000601c9ec82$efaebe40$cf0c3ac0$@com.au> I almost agree with you Jack, however it depends on the space available. I was at La Marshall in Buenos Aries, when a couple of their better dancer got on the floor ahead of everyone else and gave a rather dramatic performance. However as the floor became more crowed they toned down their dancing. Thus respecting the other dancers. I have a weakness for dramatic endings, but will tone these down if the floor is crowed. So I am saying that, yes, you can do a performance type of dance, but only if the space allows. A crowed floor does not permit dramatic gestures, here we agree. Respect the other dancers. Bumping into someone, somehow, shows your lack of dancing ability. Roger Spence ? We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor with many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available. Show Tango is for dancing a performance in front of an audience with, usually, no other couples on the dance floor. Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time. Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show dance routines for the right time and place. Jack From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 20:05:40 2009 From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:05:40 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] who is anyone to judge? In-Reply-To: <000601c9ec82$efaebe40$cf0c3ac0$@com.au> References: <000601c9ec82$efaebe40$cf0c3ac0$@com.au> Message-ID: with the apperance of the new troll on the list i ask this question. WHO IS ANYONE TO JUDGE? if there are no legit certifications or standards for argentine tango (and there are not) how can anyone judge any ones dancing (or anything else) beyond their own likes and dislikes? the only thing ANYONE can truthfully say is "I do like that" or "I don't like that". now bad floor craft, fast or slow, NO MATTER how or what is being danced. BAD MANNERS, NO MATTER WHAT. not respecting the flow and attitude of the "ROOM". all are very bad and rude behaviours NO MATTER WHAT THE DANCE should not be tolerated. as to the new troll. BAD TROLL, BACK UNDER YOUR BRIDGE. The Tangonista Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From vytis at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 21:25:57 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:25:57 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Geraldine and Ezequiel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having spoken to my NZ contacts last night, who attended their classes at the NZ festival, seems that they were better teachers in the intensive immersion course before the main festival workshops. I have been contacted off-list to be told that there were similar negative reports on their attendance of a German tango festival *last year*. Cheers > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:31:25 +1000 > From: Noughts > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest > To: Pat Petronio > Cc: tango-l at mit.edu > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > This was also the exact > same feedback that was received from all the Aussies that went to NZ > to have classes with them there. From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU Sun Jun 14 00:14:49 2009 From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:14:49 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest Message-ID: <4A347939.8080701@mit.edu> For the record, negative reviews (including naming of the persons or events in question) are explicitly permitted on Tango-L, subject to requirements to prevent abuse (which requirements seem to have been followed in this case). See this rule at http://tango-l.com/tango-L-rules.htm#RELEVANCE-NegativeReviews A paraphrased excerpt is: Negative reviews of a particular teacher or event are permitted as a potential service to the Tango community, even if individuals are named. However, to prevent abuse of this exception as a way for people to campaign negatively against people they don't like, or their competitors, these reviews must meet ALL the following criteria: - Name and tango community of poster must be identified to prevent anonymous postings (e.g., someone hiding behind a pseudonym); - Must have had direct and personal experience with the teacher/event in question (i.e., not hearsay or second-hand opinions); - Specific and objective details should be included (just saying "terrible teachers," for example, is not enough). When these are followed, as was the case here, it is indeed a service to the community. This does not preclude others from putting forth counter-examples or differences of opinions, nor does it *require* that the persons in question be named if the poster wishes to avoid doing so out of a sense of delicacy (though it does permit naming as well). Tango-L and Tango-A administrator tango-l-owner at mit.edu From alex at tangofuego.us Sun Jun 14 01:24:03 2009 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:24:03 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog Message-ID: <003001c9ecb0$57f4a5a0$07ddf0e0$@us> After reading the thread on teacher feedback, I thought about a blog as a simple solution. I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can leave anonymous comments and feedback on teachers and DJ's. I've got a pretty good start, but a long way to go, so please bear with me. There is a post where you can leave teacher names (cities and websites, too) that I've missed. I'll add them as quickly as I am able. Anyway, here it is...and thanks in advance for putting the word out...add links to your blogs and/or websites...maybe this will be a worthwhile effort. Let me know if someone has already done this - I didn't even check with Google to see if there is already something out there. http://tangoteacherreviews.blogspot.com/ Here's my other blog, but you have to dig kinda deep to find anything about tango anymore... http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/ Alex From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 03:28:00 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog In-Reply-To: <003001c9ecb0$57f4a5a0$07ddf0e0$@us> References: <003001c9ecb0$57f4a5a0$07ddf0e0$@us> Message-ID: <839911.8119.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Alex Long > > I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can leave anonymous comments > and feedback on teachers and DJ's. >? > http://tangoteacherreviews.blogspot.com/ > Thanks Alex, this could prove to be very valuable to organisers and anyone trying to decide whether to attend classes and workshops with a particular teacher. I, for one, was certainly shocked at the recent comments about Ezequiel and Geraldine's classes. Jack From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 03:48:39 2009 From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:48:39 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog In-Reply-To: <003001c9ecb0$57f4a5a0$07ddf0e0$@us> References: <003001c9ecb0$57f4a5a0$07ddf0e0$@us> Message-ID: <3eff99210906140048y734f6a90k985db2ecee38020b@mail.gmail.com> hola alex, sounds like it will be a great resource, as long as people respect the ethos in which it was created, which is one of sharing direct knowledge and experiences (i think XYZ is great/terrible as an instructor because...). another point that i think will be important for users to remember is that even though there are lots of good teachers out there, we, as individuals, will not necessarily 'click' with every one of them. For example, while in BsAs, my partner preferred instructors with a 'softly-softly' approach, whereas i seemed to learn better with the 'don't do it that way, do it this way instead' instructors. :) suerte On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Alex Long wrote: > After reading the thread on teacher feedback, I thought about a blog as a > simple solution. > > I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can leave anonymous comments > and feedback on teachers and DJ's. > > I've got a pretty good start, but a long way to go, so please bear with me. > There is a post where you can leave teacher names (cities and websites, > too) > that I've missed. I'll add them as quickly as I am able. > > Anyway, here it is...and thanks in advance for putting the word out...add > links to your blogs and/or websites...maybe this will be a worthwhile > effort. Let me know if someone has already done this - I didn't even check > with Google to see if there is already something out there. > > http://tangoteacherreviews.blogspot.com/ > > Here's my other blog, but you have to dig kinda deep to find anything about > tango anymore... > > http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/ > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki ( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com ) From politas at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 08:37:38 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:37:38 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Geraldine and Ezequiel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A34EF12.6060009@gmail.com> Ok, given the clear posting of the relevant rules, I will be more specific about my experience of Geraldin Rojas & Ezequiel Paludi's workshops at the Aus International Tango Fest. I am Myk Dowling, and I am part of the Canberra tango community. I am not a Tango instructor, though I do date one. I attended two workshops by Geraldin and Ezequiel. The first workshop was: Techniques for Men & Women (Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi) Techniques to be explored include: axis, posture, pivot, articulations (knees, shoulders, and ankles) ideal to make adornments for men and women Recommended Level: Available to all levels What actually happened in the class was: The demonstrated a sequence, then vaguely indicated that we should partner up and reproduce it. Now, one of the reasons I like Tango is that I don't need to memorise long sequences, and I had no idea which particular move they were expecting us to attempt. After a minute or so of everybody dancing pretty much randomly, they stopped the music and demonstrated a particular move, then got us to attempt that particular move. After another minute or so, they picked a couple to show how they were doing, and then vaguely asked us all if we thought the couple had done the move correctly. This pretty much set the scene for the rest of the class - Show a bit of move, get everyone to try, pick on a couple who were struggling and then not clearly describe what they were doing wrong (or even really if they were doing wrong). At no time did they discuss technique in general, but were very dismissive of milonguero-style dancing (performing comically bad examples as if to say that elegant dancing Milonguero-style was impossible) Other than that, it was very difficult to tell what they were suggesting that people ought to do, as opposed to what they were suggesting people should not do. Anything I learned from the class, I learned in spite of their explanations, not because of them. I also fopund their smoochiness towards each other highly unprofessional, and Ezequiel's posturing and strutting annoying. Although billed as "All levels", I would not say it was in any way accessible to beginner dancers. The other workshop was: Class 10: Milonga (Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi) Techniques to be explored include: turns, sacadas and boleos Recommended Level: Intermediate Okay, an Intermediate level class. This was supposedly a milonga class, but they were unable or unwilling to clearly define the difference between tango and milonga, were again teaching a sequence, and spent absolutely no time out of an hour and a half talking about how the moves they were showing us were supposed to work with the music. The sequences didn't seem particularly suited to milonga any more than to tango (or even vals). A 90 minute class that ground to a halt for an infuriating half-hour spent incoherently trying to get some point across. It was something about hip disassociation and leading with intention, but they never really made it clear. Half an hour spent talking and smooching and prancing about, doing such highly exaggerated versions of alternate walks that we were never really sure what was supposed to be the better option and which the worse. Half an hour where none of us participants were dancing to show whether or not we had grasped their point. In general, their teaching method seemed almost non-existent. They were almost attempting a socratic-style "teach by asking questions", but their response to every answer was either non-committal sidestepping or rejection, and they rarely gave their own answer to the question. They almost used a demonstration/copy/correct method, except they replaced "correct" with "vague harangue". Their demonstrations sometimes contradicted their rare declarative statements. Geraldin's lack of English only hampered matters, especially since Ezeqiel seemed unable to adequately translate the comments she did make. (I was told by a Spanish-speaking fellow student that what she was saying was not any clearer than Ezequiel's explanations, anyway.) The two classes (especially the half-hour incomprehensible lecture and prance session in the middle of the milonga workshop) were enough to make me decide that I wasn't going to go back for the vals class that I had paid for. Unfortunately, there was no other class I could swap into for just the session I missed, due to scheduling limitations. Myk, in Canberra From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 10:08:09 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog Message-ID: <46155.29665.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Alex, I appreciate your efforts, but I don't think that leaving comments anonymously is very fair to the instructors. If someone is going to post critically about someone, they should accept responsiblility for their words. They don't need to leave an email address, but perhaps a first name and city is fair. Heck, technically, they could even come up with a false name, but I think it would be wise to make them think about what they write. Also, some guidelines would be good, such as being specific, not just "this person sucks". Otherwise, the site could just become a "_itch session". Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Alex Long wrote: > After reading the thread on teacher > feedback, I thought about a blog as a > simple solution. > > I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can leave > anonymous comments > and feedback on teachers and DJ's. > > I've got a pretty good start, but a long way to go, so > please bear with me. > There is a post where you can leave teacher names (cities > and websites, too) > that I've missed. I'll add them as quickly as I am able. > > Anyway, here it is...and thanks in advance for putting the > word out...add > links to your blogs and/or websites...maybe this will be a > worthwhile > effort. Let me know if someone has already done this - I > didn't even check > with Google to see if there is already something out > there. > > http://tangoteacherreviews.blogspot.com/ From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 11:12:00 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog Message-ID: <841443.51594.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alex made it quite clear on his new Blog that the same rules would apply as those of Tango-L. If you can create an alias then why not anonymous? Especially if one lives in the same community as the teacher( and who would know better about the quality of the teaching?), anonymity lends some protection to the critic. It is certainly not unknown that folks in a community talk about the instructors and their various strengths and weaknesses, but this helps out-of-towners decide if they want to pay expenses to have those teachers come to their towns for workshops or festivals. I have been contacted several times by festival organizers for my input on teachers before they were invited. I was candid and fair. Sometimes my advice was taken and sometimes it wasn't. But suppose Tallulah Tango in Oswego, Kansas wants to bring in an instructor to help a fledgling community. Where does she go to find out if she is paying for quality teaching or good marketing? Anyone ever noticed how many 'Tango Championship' Winners there are in the tango world? The first festival Pablo Veron did in the US taught him a lot about what we would put up with. His first class had 300 students. His second class had 30. The organizer also had a little chat with His Majesty. Two years later, at Santa Fe, he showed much more respect for the students. But 300 folks were out their costs of that first class. Now.....if folks are going to use that list to attack someone for their PERSONAL habits or looks or relationships, then I hope it is stopped. And if nothing else, it has already given us a list of folks to watch. --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog > To: tango-L at mit.edu > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 10:08 AM > > Alex, > > I appreciate your efforts, but I don't think that leaving > comments anonymously is very fair to the instructors.? > If someone is going to post critically about someone, they > should accept responsiblility for their words.? They > don't need to leave an email address, but perhaps a first > name and city is fair.? Heck, technically, they could > even come up with a false name, but I think it would be wise > to make them think about what they write. > > Also, some guidelines would be good, such as being > specific, not just "this person sucks".? Otherwise, the > site could just become a "_itch session". > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Alex Long > wrote: > > > After reading the thread on teacher > > feedback, I thought about a blog as a > > simple solution. > > > > I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can > leave > > anonymous comments > > and feedback on teachers and DJ's. > > > > I've got a pretty good start, but a long way to go, > so > > please bear with me. > > There is a post where you can leave teacher names > (cities > > and websites, too) > > that I've missed. I'll add them as quickly as I am > able. > > > > Anyway, here it is...and thanks in advance for putting > the > > word out...add > > links to your blogs and/or websites...maybe this will > be a > > worthwhile > > effort. Let me know if someone has already done this - > I > > didn't even check > > with Google to see if there is already something out > > there. > > > > http://tangoteacherreviews.blogspot.com/ > > > > ? ? ? > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From imhmedia at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 11:29:08 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:29:08 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] teacher reviews.... Message-ID: <4A351744.8050805@yahoo.com> I'm sorry but I think this is an absolutely terrible idea. reminds me of the Black list of the '50's. As someone else pretty much said in commenting on this... one person's honey is another person's vinegar. And altho I commend Alex for asking people to be considerate in their comments, I think the majority of posters will be those who have an axe to grind. you know... you can really ruin people's reputations with this-- deserved or not. And yes, people should absolutely be required to post their real names or its a cop-out. Tango L recently posted their rules and reasons for rules about negative reviews of teachers which has some wisdom to it. BTW I am an organizer and am as interested as anyone else in whether the teachers I am about to hire are good teachers and not just good dancers...but I won't touch this blog with a ten foot pole..... no matter how curious I might be about what is said because I don't want to be tainted by someone who might have a whole different criteria in judging teachers or who might have just had a "bad class day". If I want to know about perspective teachers it's easy enough to contact someone who has hosted them or been to class with them. Ilene Woodstock/NYC Alex wrote: > > > After reading the thread on teacher feedback on Tango-L, I thought about a blog as a simple solution. > > I've created a quick and dirty blog so people can leave anonymous comments and feedback on teachers and DJ's. From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 12:07:21 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog Message-ID: <371715.27939.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, NANCY wrote: > Alex made it quite clear on his new Blog that the same > rules would apply as those of Tango-L.? It isn't clear. To some people, "they suck" is constructive criticism. Instead of information-laden, it's emotion-laden. The wording on Tango-L is much clearer. If you can > create an alias then why not anonymous?? Because other people in the community could call out people who don't even exist in their community. If someone signed herself Anastasha and I know that Anastasha doesn't exist in my community, then I think it's fair for me to let people know that and to bring Anastasha's post into question. What if the critic is a rival teacher? I think it would be fair to post that info, too. The other side of this is wouldn't it be a good resource for teachers to learn what they're doing right or wrong? Who's gonna' take anonymous comments seriously? I wouldn't. Especially if > one lives in the same community as the teacher( and who > would know better about the quality of the teaching?), > anonymity lends some protection to the critic.? If someone in my community doesn't like the way I teach, I have several options. I could try to find out more info from the critic to make my teaching better. Or I could ignore the critic. I could also criticize the critic's own dancing and figure out whether how much merit this person has. But everything is also transparent, so if I act badly toward this person, then everyone can say "well, Trini is just mad because Anastasha won't a bad review of her on Alex's blog". And what's to keep Anastasha from writing even worse things on the blog. The critic really doesn't need anymore protection. The other way of evaluating teachers but allowing anonymity would be through standardized evalutions similar to what they use in college to rate teachers. Information is pooled. Some comments are shared. Trini de Pittsburgh From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 12:16:44 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Alex's Blog rules Message-ID: <114327.93773.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: wrote: > > > > Alex made it quite clear on his new Blog that the > same > > rules would apply as those of Tango-L. > > It isn't clear. To some people, "they suck" is > constructive criticism. Instead of information-laden, > it's emotion-laden. The wording on Tango-L is much > clearer. I guess you didn't read the comment he posted. In fact, he copied the rules as stated by Shahrukh on the Tango-L and said they would also apply to his Blog. From macfroggy at aol.com Sun Jun 14 12:28:48 2009 From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:28:48 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Alex's Blog rules In-Reply-To: <114327.93773.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <114327.93773.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CBBB24544865A3-1578-1F40@WEBMAIL-MZ37.sysops.aol.com> I think the secret of making this an effective tool would be volume. If 100 students feel the workshop was well-taught and worth the trouble, then the comments of 2-3 dissenters could be taken in context. If only 10 folks participate and rate everyone on the list, then it would be useless. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 12:40:43 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Alex's Blog rules Message-ID: <803890.90809.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, NANCY wrote: > > > I guess you didn't read the comment he posted.? In > fact, he copied the rules as stated by Shahrukh on the > Tango-L and said they would also apply to his Blog. > The blog itself, however, did not make this clear. I'm sure Alex's intention is in the right place and that he will make any necessary changes to make his site a success. I'm looking forward to how it develops. For myself, I plan to post some reviews of recent workshops I've attended. To be honest, I don't really attend bad workshops, so I'll try to keep my positive reviews specific and meaningful. I'll also let my community know about it and encourage their participation, though they tend to be a quiet lot. Trini de Pittsburgh From john at lowry.com.au Mon Jun 15 03:03:02 2009 From: john at lowry.com.au (John Lowry) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:03:02 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest Message-ID: We travelled to this festival for the first time. We found it to be well organised and supported by all the major Tango teachers and organisers in Sydney. The workshop venue (NIDA) was excellent for the purpose. The milongas varied between restaurant and ballroom, a pleasant mix of venues, formality and music, thanks to the guest Dj's. To be expected with a wide range and quality of dancers from near and far, the crowded milongas were a little bumpy, but I can hold my ground as well as any Argentine :). Joaquin Amenabar's workshops were exceptional. Highly recommended to anyone who is interested in dancing to the music (as opposed to max'ing speed / figures). No experience of the visiting dance teachers, since our dance style is "milonguero" and, as with most festivals, this style of dance is not catered for. On balance, an enjoyable week-end of Tango. Oh, and the service in shops and restaurants was friendly and helpful - no exceptions. Good quality meals are inexpensive. Thanks Sydney. See you next year. John From arborlaw at comcast.net Mon Jun 15 17:16:55 2009 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:16:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog In-Reply-To: <46155.29665.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <46155.29665.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A36BA47.9090003@comcast.net> Alex, I think Trini has good suggestions. I think that the comments would trend to the negative and several will be very personal and poisonous. If you require people to register with a name, as opposed to leaving anonymous comments, at least they will have to put a public persona on their dialogue. (That seems to not inhibit anyone on here, so I would require it on a blog as well.) I would also freely delete excessively negative comments that have no constructive criticism in them -- but be aware that if you do act as a publisher and change the wording in comments (other than to excise obscenity, etc) you run the risk of losing your legal immunity against defamation (I'm sorry to get all legal on you, and I'm certainly not your lawyer, nor trying to be your lawyer, but you should read this article: http://bit.ly/c3Rd). I have a couple of clients who have a lot of controversy associated with the books they publish, and they have established a 'forum' in BBS style separate from the blog, so the separation of what they will moderate and what they won't is very clear. It's become an internet convention that on a BBS, anything goes. That's true on many blogs, too, but I think that on a blog hosted by an individual there is a presumption that the comment content is being at least monitored, if not edited by the blog host (as opposed to a blog hosted by an organization or a news media outlet like the NYT, where people assume the opposite.) I think you have a fantastic idea and it could be a great resource, but I fear you are going to have your hands full, particularly when you consider the stiff winds that blow on this list. My $0.02. cs Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > Alex, > > I appreciate your efforts, but I don't think that leaving comments anonymously is very fair to the instructors. If someone is going to post critically about someone, they should accept responsiblility for their words. They don't need to leave an email address, but perhaps a first name and city is fair. Heck, technically, they could even come up with a false name, but I think it would be wise to make them think about what they write. > > Also, some guidelines would be good, such as being specific, not just "this person sucks". Otherwise, the site could just become a "_itch session". > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd, Esq. VP/General Counsel Loud Feed, Inc. | http://loudfeed.com Principal, Arborlaw PLC | http://arborlaw.biz 734.717.4646 v 734.786.1241 f From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com Sun Jun 14 14:20:41 2009 From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:20:41 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & Reviews:: New Blog Correction Message-ID: Alex I read reviews of movies all the time and generally I can get a feel from the comments as to what I can expect from the movie. But I still go with my gut feeling even if 90% of the reviews are negative I will still go and take my chances if it's a movie I want to see. Other times I go with the reviews. I don't care who wrote the review after all it's just one persons opinion but if you take everyone's opinion pro and con you would certainly stand a better chance of making an informed decision. I don't think the person making the comment should remain anonymous otherwise you would need to start another forum called Tangostudentreviewsontangoteachers.blogspot I DO think the person making the comment should remain anonymous otherwise you would need to start another forum called Tangostudentreviewsontangoteachers.blogspot **************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents available at ditech.com (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221374924x1201371434/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fclk.atdmt.com%2FDEG%2Fgo%2F153724534%2Fdirect%2F0 1%2F) From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 14:30:30 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teacher & DJ Reviews :: New Blog Message-ID: <629322.10722.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just to note: teachers can also post rave reviews about their own work. whether anonymously or under aliases. And - many of the 'names' on Tango-L are aliases. From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU Tue Jun 16 16:32:35 2009 From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:32:35 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Rules on negative postings (WAS Geraldine and Ezequiel) Message-ID: <4A380163.7050908@mit.edu> > Ok, given the clear posting of the relevant rules, I will be more > specific about my experience of Geraldin Rojas & Ezequiel Paludi's > workshops at the Aus International Tango Fest. [rest of post deleted] Well, there was certainly more than sufficient disclosure in this post for the Tango-L rules. Since there has been so much discussion about it (and now a blog that uses the same rules), let me copy the entire text of that rule here, rather than just paraphrase as I did before. Note that this allowance for negative reviews is identified in the rules as an "exception": the exception being to a more general rule against rants, complaints, flames, etc. (especially if that's all that the post contains), which rarely if ever add anything positive to a discussion. A sincere, unbiased and objective critical review that does not have some ulterior motive indeed can provide a useful service. --------------------------------- NEGATIVE REVIEWS PERMITTED (WITH STRICT REQUIREMENTS) Negative reviews of a particular teacher or event are permitted as a potential service to the Tango community, even if individuals are named. However, to prevent abuse of this exception as a way for people to campaign negatively against people they don't like, or their competitors, these reviews must meet ALL the following criteria: The purpose of this clarification to the rules is NOT to encourage negativism or criticism (there is enough of that already on Tango-L), but to clarify the requirements for those legitimately wishing to provide a negative review as a public service. + The full name and Tango community (city or metropolitan region) of the poster must be identified. The intent of this requirement is to avoid anonymous postings or postings under unverifiable pseudonyms. There should be enough identification information that people from that community can verify the identity of the poster. (While there may be a legitimate argument for anonymous negative reviews, its potential for abuse is too great and so it is not permitted.) + The person or event being reviewed must be a public figure or event in Tango, i.e., one that advertises or is advertised or otherwise promoted, even if on a limited scale. + The poster should not be a competitor of the person about whom he or she wishes to post the negative review, or affiliated with a competitor or acting on behalf of a competitor (i.e., there should be no conflict of interest or ulterior motive). + The poster should have had direct and personal experience of the teacher or event in question (i.e., not just based on hearsay). + Specific details must be included to back up the negative opinion. The focus needs to be on objective items (even if it has a subjective component), and not on entirely subjective opinions. E.g., "The organizer is a jerk." Not acceptable (even if it is true). "I felt cheated because half the teachers advertised for the festival were not present and no refunds or other compensation was offered." Acceptable. + The above rules apply even if the teacher is not identified by name if it's clear that the negative comments apply to an identifiable person or group. The following (similar to a real example posted on Tango-L by a teacher with an obvious conflict of interest) would not be permitted: "There's another couple in our community that have taught for years, but they've yet to produced a single successful student by themselves." ----------------------------------------- Tango-L and Tango-A administrator tango-L-owner at mit.edu From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 18:15:50 2009 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:15:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Rules on negative postings (WAS Geraldine and Ezequiel) Message-ID: > > + The poster should not be a competitor of the person about whom he > or she wishes to post the negative review, or affiliated with a > competitor or acting on behalf of a competitor (i.e., there should > be no conflict of interest or ulterior motive). Wouldn't this rule about competitors not posting negative reviews exclude anyone who teaches tango from posting a negative review? - Joe From politas at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:43:00 2009 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:43:00 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Rules on negative postings (WAS Geraldine and Ezequiel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1245246180.18823.7.camel@wedge> On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 17:15 -0500, Joe Grohens wrote: > Wouldn't this rule about competitors not posting negative reviews > exclude anyone who teaches tango from posting a negative review? That would depend on whether they taught at a similar level as the person being reviewed, or in the same market. A couple who teach only local students are not competitors for a couple travelling the world to teach at festivals or specially-arranged workshops, are they? Or alternatively, local teachers from one city/state country should be able to review local teachers in distant lands, since they are not competing for the same student dollars. Myk, in Canberra From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 11:06:10 2009 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers Message-ID: <46266.36634.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Two great walkers (how would you say that in Spanish?) I love how this couple reveals the music to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMK_ubSl0 I would also love to see Milongas where a tandem or two are reserved for couples who only walk....no steps, no looking down at their feet, no classmate correography...only walking to the music for a whole tanda..then we will see who really dances. From keith at totango.net Wed Jun 17 15:34:35 2009 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers Message-ID: <61774.64.229.160.250.1245267275.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> My reaction is this was a nice video to share. And darned if I'm not prompted by it to make a comment or two; this perhaps in particular relation to the recent threads about commenting on teachers, etc. as well. My own way of helping people move forward for years (in social tango) has been to help simply it all by saying: walk, turn; walk, turn; do a little thingy 3/4 of the way through when the music tells you to slow down; walk, turn, end. Anyone could argue that's over-simplification. But - reducing things to the basics never hurt anyone. In the social dancing context. And I try to get the men especially to have some energy from their knees down ... kind of a sharpness and definiteness about moving. So, I liked what this couple was doing. Very nice. And then I have a little criticism. Purely a personal reaction. Men who stick their left arm/hand up so high seem to me to be on kind of a trip. 3 inches lower and they would appear to me to have a little humility/modesty. Always a good thing when privileged to dance with a lovely lady. No? In a social dancing context. Anyhow - bravo. From tempehuck at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 16:10:55 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:10:55 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers In-Reply-To: <61774.64.229.160.250.1245267275.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> References: <61774.64.229.160.250.1245267275.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote: > > So, I liked what this couple was doing. Very nice. > > And then I have a little criticism. Purely a personal reaction. > > Men who stick their left arm/hand up so high seem to me to be on kind of a > trip. 3 inches lower and they would appear to me to have a little > humility/modesty. I agree with Keith--while it's perfectly acceptable socially to dance that way (I seem to recall Susana Miller teaching this, for one other example), I personally have never been a fan of the Statue of Liberty 90-degree look. I much prefer the more classic angle of about 135 degrees as taught by most Argentines I've taken from. I try to avoid any angle less than 90 degrees since that turns the leader's elbow into a weapon. Unfortunately, I've seen instructors dance that way as well. Huck From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net Thu Jun 18 12:34:11 2009 From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:34:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers In-Reply-To: <46266.36634.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46266.36634.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1344230990.20090618123411@attglobal.net> Mario - I would agree. Detlef and Melina are always popular when they come to Gotham, and with good reason! They are among the few travelling teachers I have seen who teach intermediate classes that deal with useful principles, rather than stupid performance sequences. Regards/Richard 1-212-695-1759 Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 11:06:10 AM, you wrote: M> Two great walkers (how would you say that in Spanish?) M> I love how this couple reveals the music to me. M> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMK_ubSl0 M> I would also love to see Milongas where a tandem or two M> are reserved for couples who only walk....no steps, no looking down M> at their feet, no classmate correography...only walking to the music M> for a whole tanda..then we will see who really dances. M> M> _______________________________________________ M> Tango-L mailing list M> Tango-L at mit.edu M> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Thu Jun 18 13:24:39 2009 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:24:39 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck Message-ID: I disagree with these guys, especially for social dance. Guys who stick out their left arm greater than 90 degrees, or 135 as huck suggests, yikes! , or even wider as I've seen in fashion lately, are an accident waiting to happen for some unlucky person, like an illegal clothesline tackle in football, neck high. I think it also look very pretentious, and should have a little red flag hanging from the wrist, WIDE LOAD. Why take up more real estate than you need to? keep that damn arm inside the vehicle, reasonably close to you, no more than 90 degrees, and out of my face when you spin around. From brick at fastpack.com Thu Jun 18 15:15:07 2009 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers: Detlef & Melina Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:06:10 -0700 (PDT) ?Mario wrote: >Two great walkers (how would you say that in Spanish?) >I love how this couple reveals the music to me. >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMK_ubSl0 Ahhh....? Detlef & Melina from Germany. I had the pleasure of taking some workshops from them in Portland last year. I have to say it was an enlightening experience. I found their teaching to be a wonderful combination of simple elegance with German precision. The logic and methods they presented to construct, and actually dance, simple but elegant and musical movement, forever changed my dancing They are among my favorite teachers of all time. I think the best description of their dancing I've read was "They don't do anything.... but they do it SO well." FWIW, they are planning a Feb 2010 visit to the USA around their gig at in Portland at Valentango. If you are lucky they might be visiting your town.....If not, maybe you could talk the into it. http://www.tangodesalon.de/ From garybarn at ozemail.com.au Fri Jun 19 06:24:41 2009 From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary Barnes) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:24:41 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C0E0FFB-C879-4D4C-8F4B-106C74EC4008@ozemail.com.au> I think we might be having a frame of reference confusion. Keith said: > 3 inches lower and they would appear to me to have a little > humility/modesty. but Huck said: > I much prefer the more classic angle of about > 135 degrees as taught by most Argentines I've taken from. > > I try to avoid any angle less than 90 degrees since that turns > the leader's elbow into a weapon. and Martin is talking about: > Guys who stick > out their left arm greater than 90 degrees, or 135 as huck suggests, > yikes! , or even wider I'm not at all sure what each of you means -- especially huck. Detlef has his _upper_ arm horizontal (at 90? from his body), and his forearm vertical (at 90? from his upper arm). If someone has their elbow down lower than that, and keep their forearm vertical, they take up less space. Their upper arm might be around 135? from vertical, or around 45? from their body. Is that what you mean, Huck? This seems to be equivalent to "3 inches lower". But that pointy elbow is safely tucked away. If someone has their upper arm non-vertical, with their hand sticking out further than their elbow, they will take up more space (and also punch people). Is that what you mean, Martin? And if they have their upper arm non-vertical the other way, with their elbow sticking out further than their hand, they will take up the same space, but their elbow may poke people. Is that what you mean, Huck? When tall guys dance with the position Detlef is in here, in a crowded milonga, I do feel in danger of getting my neck caught in the trap! And if they dance like that with a short woman, she looks like she's been hung out to dry. But neither is the case in the video. I usually try to have my forearm vertical (ish), and adjust the angle of my upper arm so its comfortable for my partner and the spaciousness of the milonga. I do not have a protractor at the milonga, though. GB On 19/06/2009, at 3:24 AM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: > I disagree with these guys, especially for social dance. Guys who > stick > out their left arm greater than 90 degrees, or 135 as huck suggests, > yikes! , or even wider as I've seen in fashion lately, are an > accident > waiting to happen for some unlucky person, like an illegal clothesline > tackle in football, neck high. I think it also look very pretentious, > and should have a little red flag hanging from the wrist, WIDE LOAD. > Why take up more real estate than you need to? keep that damn arm > inside > the vehicle, reasonably close to you, no more than 90 degrees, and out > of my face when you spin around. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 12:18:28 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck Message-ID: <112203.72343.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> My two cents worth as a follower. The man's left arm at a 90 degree angle up can give the follower a nice point of contact (full forearm). Feels nice for close-embrace. When I lead, I prefer to keep my left arm out greater than 90 degrees to keep both my and my partner's shoulders long. As a follower, that is one thing I simply have to have - a long right shoulder. Anything less than a 90 degree angle of the man's left arm shortens my right shoulder and feels uncomfortable. When a man has a greater than 90 degree angle and at his shoulder level, then it's easier for me to do backward ochos to the man's right or to do similar movements. I'm able to transmit the energy coming from his left arm into my hips more easily. Trini de Pittsburgh From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Jun 19 12:56:27 2009 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:56:27 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck In-Reply-To: <112203.72343.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <112203.72343.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The man's left arm at a 90 degree angle up can give the follower a nice point of contact (full forearm). Seems you're talking about the angle between the man's upper arm and his forearm. I thought the discussion was the angle between the man's upper arm and his torso, ie. sticking his elbow out rather than pointing it down?? J _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 13:37:46 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck Message-ID: <801675.72279.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Jay Rabe wrote: > > > The man's left arm at a 90 degree angle up can give > the follower a nice point of contact (full forearm). > > Seems you're talking about the angle between the man's > upper arm and his forearm. I thought the discussion was the > angle between the man's upper arm and his torso, ie. > sticking his elbow out rather than pointing it down?? > > J > I'll clarify, then. When the man's arm is at a 90 degree angle away from his body and his forearm is also 90 degrees up from his upper arm, there can be a nice contact between the forearms. It can feel comfortably snuggly. If his upper arm and forearm are at 90 degrees but his arm is angled lower than 90 degrees (i.e. he drops his elbow), it can actually be less comfortable for me. It shortens my forearm and the lower part of my muscle bunches up. Not so pretty. There's also no snuggly contact between the forearms. In that case, the 135 (or whatever) degree position is more comfortable. Those are my observations. Trini de Pittsburgh From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 14:10:16 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:10:16 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck In-Reply-To: <1C0E0FFB-C879-4D4C-8F4B-106C74EC4008@ozemail.com.au> References: <1C0E0FFB-C879-4D4C-8F4B-106C74EC4008@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:24 AM, Gary Barnes wrote: > I think we might be having a frame of reference confusion. > > Keith said: >> 3 inches lower and they would appear to me to have a little >> humility/modesty. > > > but Huck said: > >> I much prefer the more classic angle of about >> 135 degrees as taught by most Argentines I've taken from. >> >> I try to avoid any angle less than 90 degrees since that turns >> the leader's elbow into a weapon. > > and Martin is talking about: > >> Guys who stick >> out their left arm ?greater than 90 degrees, or 135 as huck suggests, >> yikes! , ?or even wider > > > I'm not at all sure what each of you means -- especially huck. > > Detlef has his _upper_ arm horizontal (at 90? from his body), and his > forearm vertical (at 90? from his upper arm). > > If someone has their elbow down lower than that, and keep their > forearm vertical, they take up less space. > Their upper arm might be around 135? from vertical, or around 45? > from their body. ?Is that what you mean, Huck? ?This seems to be > equivalent to "3 inches lower". ?But that pointy elbow is safely > tucked away. I see now that what I said was rather confusing. I didn't mean for the upper arm to come straight out and then make a 135 degree angle with the lower arm, that would be insane. Your description sounds better. What I'm talking about is the classic position of someone like Ezequiel Farfaro, for one example. It combines elegance with the modesty Keith was alluding to. The upper arm angles down at an angle, and then the forearm goes up at an angle. I find the 90/90 Statue of Liberty to be a bit too stilted, but that's just personal taste. Most of all I dislike the position with the hand by the ear and the elbow sticking out--it's not only too macho looking, it's also downright rude to other dancers. Huck From keith at totango.net Fri Jun 19 14:52:20 2009 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck Message-ID: <61152.65.93.193.252.1245437540.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> You know ... our personalities make us do things how we do them. Every person on Earth should be given room and feel free to be/express themselves, of course. There are many who will be slightly different in performance than they would be on a crowded dance floor. I guess I decided a long time ago that this was not for me. When I am "performing" or teaching, my own desire is to show social style. I wish people to see that it is something they can do. This way, we get more people. "Hey - I can do that!" is a good motivator. So, if I'm dancing on an empty dance floor because it is an exhibition, I still show how dancers with a lot of folks around them hold themselves. Trying not to show a dis-connect between looking and doing. My original comment was about that left arm of the leader being a fairly aggressive signal that he wanted his space and you better stay away. A guy like that on the dance floor is on a trip. It works. We all stay away. Success. For him. Damper on enjoyment for the rest. I'm just sayin'. But my bias is that I love social dancing. Love a crowded dance floor. The smaller me and my partner have to get - the happier I am. Tango tango. I know this is not how a lot of performers think. On a stage, one should project that "something" which calls for being bigger than you are. Just sticking your left arm way out or way up or keeping your hand close but your elbow out is telling people you have issues you haven't dealt with yet. As any woman will tell you, men are strange. I think more men should follow so they can feel how silly they can be when doing the macho thingy. From tango at tangodesalon.de Fri Jun 19 19:45:06 2009 From: tango at tangodesalon.de (=?us-ascii?Q?Detlef_Engel_&_Melina_Sedo?=) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:45:06 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck, ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010601c9f137$fa68b070$ef3a1150$@de> Hi folks, always a delight to see, that by very simple means the next news cycle can be created. The most important things are said already, but let me just add: @ Mario, Brick, Richard: Thanks for the nice words! @ Keith: Thanks for the profound and thorough analysis, at last I know what's going on with me! @ Huck: Please have another look at your liberty statue, don't blame her! No angle at all in her arm! She must be on a special trip, too :-) Apropos Detlef on a trip: We look very forward to visit the US in coming October/November (Boston and New York). We hope to meet some of you guys over there. Best to you all. Detlef Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel --------------------------------------------------------- www: www.tangodesalon.de www.youtube.com/tangodesalon @: tango at tangodesalon. de From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Jun 20 18:29:13 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] arm angle, keith, huck Message-ID: <787125.62922.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Sean here. ? With four joints, the arm has remarkable mobility. A man who is more than dimly aware of any other dancers on the floor may take advantage of that mobility to adjust the position of his arm to the conditions presented by those other dancers. Since the conditions are likely to change from moment to moment, more than one adjustment per tanda is permitted. However, gratuitous adjustments or marking the tempo with that arm are discouraged, as these can result in snarky comments from the peanut gallery. ? There are those who insist that there is a "most correct" way to hold that arm. To those dancers, this may be a revalation: Even when performing on an?seemingly empty floor, there is another dancer for whom he?might adjust his "most correct" arm position. Bonus tandas to any man?who can guess who she might be. ? Sean (Rogue arm adjuster) PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ? From imhmedia at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 12:50:18 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:50:18 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] NA-E: First Annual Hudson Valley Mega-Milonga Saturday! Message-ID: <4A43AACA.6020305@yahoo.com> SATURDAY: June 27th TANGO UNDER THE TENT presents The First Annual Hudson Valley Mega Milonga This will be an opportunity for all NEW YORK area tangueros to unite and dance under one roof in Warwick, Orange County, just an hour or so from NYC. Enjoy a late afternoon country drive and stay for a great evening milonga Milonga will start at 8:00 PM We will honor those below who brought tango to the Hudson Valley! Walter & MariLynne Kane Ilene Marder Carlos & Lynn Sampelayo **Performance by Carolina Jaurena & Anton Gazenbeek** ** Ilene DJ's ** **beautiful wooden dance floor - 2500 square feet** We will also acknowledge and honor all others who have contributed to the growth of Argentine Tango in the Hudson Valley $15.00 donation collected at the door This will be a charitable event and all proceeds will be donated to:"Cell Phones for Soldiers" a not for profit organization Many surprises are planned "DRESS to IMPRESS" COME JOIN US! This Saturday.... Stone Bridge Station 30 Wisner Road Warwick, NY FOR MORE INFO: www.tangounderthetent.com From eyle at reconsider.org Thu Jun 25 12:50:33 2009 From: eyle at reconsider.org (Nicolas Eyle) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:50:33 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers Message-ID: <95C97192F42E470AB8731612BBAFC744@irving> Walking doesn't have to look boring or stiff... It can be incredibly musical, fluid, and interesting if done well. The embrace should be comfortable, arms held high enough to be elegant but not rigid, I offer this example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr4W4H-H9DU Nicky (from Syracuse) From abungureanu at googlemail.com Thu Jun 25 13:33:53 2009 From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:33:53 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers In-Reply-To: <95C97192F42E470AB8731612BBAFC744@irving> References: <95C97192F42E470AB8731612BBAFC744@irving> Message-ID: <4A43B501.8070600@googlemail.com> Am 25.06.2009 18:50 schrieb Nicolas Eyle : > Walking doesn't have to look boring or stiff... It can be incredibly > musical, fluid, and interesting if done well. The embrace should be > comfortable, arms held high enough to be elegant but not rigid, I offer this > example: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr4W4H-H9DU > :-( This couple should better dance d'Arienzo or Donato and stay away from Maida. Poema is too precious to be danced like that. IMHO it is not musical and not fluid, it is interrupted by too many adornos and cheap show effects. Sorry, I hope they are otherwise great dancers. Andy From imhmedia at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 16:04:45 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:04:45 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers In-Reply-To: <4A43B501.8070600@googlemail.com> References: <95C97192F42E470AB8731612BBAFC744@irving> <4A43B501.8070600@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4A43D85D.4040604@yahoo.com> to each his own..I thought this was a beautiful, interpretation with wonderful musicality. I didn't see any cheap show effects, unless you count some well-timed beautfully executed social dance type embellishments. as for your other comment, Carlos Copello and Luna Palacios are exquisite dancers ...whatever they do. Andy Ungureanu wrote: >Am 25.06.2009 18:50 schrieb Nicolas Eyle : > > >>Walking doesn't have to look boring or stiff... It can be incredibly >>musical, fluid, and interesting if done well. The embrace should be >>comfortable, arms held high enough to be elegant but not rigid, I offer this >>example: >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr4W4H-H9DU >> >> >> >:-( >This couple should better dance d'Arienzo or Donato and stay away from >Maida. Poema is too precious to be danced like that. >IMHO it is not musical and not fluid, it is interrupted by too many >adornos and cheap show effects. >Sorry, I hope they are otherwise great dancers. > >Andy >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 00:55:34 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A pair of great walkers In-Reply-To: <4A43D85D.4040604@yahoo.com> References: <95C97192F42E470AB8731612BBAFC744@irving> <4A43B501.8070600@googlemail.com> <4A43D85D.4040604@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <818408.45938.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Ilene Marder imhmedia at yahoo.com > I didn't see any cheap show effects ... > > I think Andy means the 3 places where the audience gasp and clap during the performance. And the figures are included for no other reason than to elicit that response. Tango audiences are just so easily impressed by little tricks. Jack From vytis at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 05:02:27 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:02:27 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting Message-ID: Thanks for Sophia for posting this on Facebook: http://www.close-embrace.com/invitingetiquette.html Should be required reading for newbies From flame at 2xtreme.net Fri Jun 26 15:36:28 2009 From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:36:28 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Carlos Copello y Luna Palacios Message-ID: <4A44C0CC.25980.415150@flame.2xtreme.net> Nicky Thanks so much for the link to Carlos Copello y Luna Palacios http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr4W4H-H9DU As you said, "A pair of great walkers". Their dancing is lovely and it's a beautiful interpretation of Poema. Diane From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 17:53:36 2009 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:53:36 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting Message-ID: <8E1C9AEB-59D2-4136-8299-5345EBABEF7C@gmail.com> Vince wrote: > http://www.close-embrace.com/invitingetiquette.html > Should be required reading for newbies Hi Vince, et al. I agree that Ney's article is an interesting discussion of dance invitation situations, and it's certainly worth reading. I don't know if I would make it "required reading for newbies". Some newbies can take a document like this as a set of absolute rules, and obey them whether they make sense or not. I don't agree with everything Ney mentions. And I think it is misleading to say that these viewpoints come from conversations with "milongueros". ... I don't really agree with the "penalty box" rule, for example. I don't see why a woman has to sit out a tanda or even just one song because she turned somebody else down. I think women can say "no thanks" without needing to explain why and dance with who they want. If you're at a small milonga and all the women are turning down guys (or maybe just one persistent guy) by saying "I'm resting", and then they all sit out in the penalty box, you can start to have a pretty empty dance floor. I have had it happen where several women in a row told me the same thing: "I want to dance with you but I can't right now because I just turned somebody else down." I was apparently following the well-trod path of a rejectee. Meanwhile, time's winged chariot is delivering the close of an all-too-brief milonga. ..... If women feel like they have to give a reason (suppose the guy says "really? why not?"), in my view they should give the real reason, and not claim to be tired or resting. I have heard women say, for example, "I would dance with you if you would towel off and change into a dry shirt, but I don't want to get soaked in your sweat." I have heard women say, "I would love to dance with you, but you hurt me. You need to learn how to lead better before I'll dance with you at a milonga." Guys can deal with this (I think) because it's honest and it identifies the thing they need to fix if they want to dance with that particular partner. .... It is true, though, that if a woman turns me down with an "I'm resting" excuse, and then dances a few seconds later with somebody else, I will not ask her to dance again (probably ever). Because I have to assume that she just doesn't like dancing with me, and is too courteous to tell it to me straight. Or maybe she has an amazing aerobic capacity and can recharge after 20 seconds rest. If she says "not right now" or just "no", on the other hand, I won't be as likely to interpret that as "I don't like dancing with you". .... I think it's gauche to take your shoes off as a signal that you don't want to dance. But I suppose that's just me. ..... What are the best and worst rejection lines you have ever heard (or used yourself)? - Joe From alex at tangofuego.us Fri Jun 26 20:56:20 2009 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:56:20 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Eleven Couples Dancing to Canaro's Poema :: was Re: A pair of great walkers Message-ID: <006c01c9f6c2$191c1950$4b544bf0$@us> I did a post on my blog on New Year's Eve last year...it's called "Musicality Resurrected"...I thought it would be interesting to watch different dancers (eleven that I included) and how they all interpret the music of the same song - Francisco Canaro's "Poema"... Here's the link: http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/2008/12/musicality-resurrected.html Alex From vytis at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 19:26:32 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:26:32 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:53:36 -0500 > From: Joe Grohens > Subject: [Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Cc: Joe Grohens > Message-ID: <8E1C9AEB-59D2-4136-8299-5345EBABEF7C at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > >I don't know if I would make it "required reading for newbies". Some newbies can take a document like this as a set of absolute rules, and obey them whether they make sense or not. As Ney said: if it were "somewhat adhered to" it would make life a little better. Not surprisingly, several dancers have thanked my acquaintance for posting that link. People new to Tango (or even those who are proficient at it) won't be necessarily be reading Tango L. And they won't read about the do and dents here in an easily digested form, from all of the numerous threads on the subject. How many schools actually hand out a "instructions" on how to behave at a milonga? Certainly the schools I have been to, do not. One tango club I went to did have some etiquette rules (a "Surviving Tango Guide") that were given to people only when they joined. Schools could do no worse by referring students to Ney or tweak them to suit their local circumstances. >I think it's gauche to take your shoes off as a signal that you don't want to dance. But I suppose that's just me. I have seen it used. >What are the best and worst rejection lines you have ever heard As you said: "I'm resting" excuse, and then dances a few seconds later with somebody else. From tangozen at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 22:26:35 2009 From: tangozen at hotmail.com (Tango Zen: Dance Here Now) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 22:26:35 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] TangoZen in BA Tango magazine Message-ID: Friends, How are you? I hope all is well. I?d like to humbly announce that BA Tango magazine in Buenos Aires just published an interview/article on TangoZen in its June/July issue. You can read the interview below. If you?re interested in getting a copy of the interview, you can download it here: http://www.tangozen.com/media_en.htm Take care and keep dancing tango? Chan Park Tango Zen House www.TangoZen.com tangozenhouse at gmail.com ===================================== Courtesy of BA Tango magazine in Buenos Aires CHAN PARK SHARING TANGO?S SPIRITUALITY Tango is meditation in movement In India, there is a cultural taboo against public physical contact with woman What one gets is body and mind harmonization Synopsis: Tango and Zen have a characteristic in common, and it is that they are winning supporters worldwide. The recent launching of Korean-American teacher CHAN PARK?s book ?TANGO ZEN: Walking Dance Meditation? in a bilingual edition ?Spanish and English? brings an important help to this propagation. The author has a great deal of experience in the topic; for ten years, he has taught this discipline in several countries, and the list is growing. He has settled in our city a short time ago, where he also gives lessons, and he has turned in to us this interview where he summarizes his past and present activity. ======================================= TangoZen is tango milonguero. TangoZen is about learning to appreciate traditional tango through disciplines of Zen, which is synonymous to simplicity and clarity of body and mind. TangoZen: Caminar y Meditar Bailando ISBN 978-950-17-1032-8 New Bilingual Edition published in Buenos Aires Visit http://www.TangoZen.com. From stuart.schmukler at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 00:31:52 2009 From: stuart.schmukler at gmail.com (Stuart Schmukler) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:31:52 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Any good tango in South Florida -- Keys or Miami? Message-ID: Folks, I am in the Florida Keys for a conference. After I the conference I'd like to go tangoing. Does anyone have any recommendations for tango in South Florida on Tuesday or Wednesday? Stuart