From imhmedia at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 16:15:28 2009 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:15:28 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] NA-E: 7/2, La Nacional, Maria Jose teaches, Ilene DJ's Message-ID: <4A4BC3E0.2000709@yahoo.com> THURSDAY, JULY 2ND, LA NACIONAL, NYC MARIA JOSE TEACHES, ILENE MARDER DJ's..... Every Thursday take the Subway to Buenos Aires! Learn, Dance and Love the Tango at the most Argentinean Spot in Manhattan. (8 to 9:30pm) Intermediate Class by:Maria Jose Maria Jose is part of the staff of Stepping Out Studios She teaches Saturday's Advanced Class from 3 to 5 pm, She is also in charge of the afternoon practica, Sunday's from 3 to 6 pm. And she host her own Milonga the 3rd Friday of every month DJ Ilene Marder Argentinean slang of the day: BUD?N "Mujer bonita y joven, piba de excepcionales condiciones f?sicas" "Beautiful and young girl, woman of exceptional physical beauty" Come to Dance some Tanguitos! La Nacional, a piece of Buenos Aires. 239 West 14th Street, NYC www.tangolanacional.com From brick at fastpack.com Fri Jul 3 15:47:36 2009 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:47:36 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Declares a Swine Flu Emergency Message-ID: Anybody in BsAs have any insight on this? Is it affecting Tango? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124642190802178481.html From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 16:23:41 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Flu in BsAs Message-ID: <387981.1749.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I just had a long reply written out and lost it so, to make it short - not much difference but lots of crisis stirring by the government. Some masks and alcohol spray in the milongas, lighter crowds, but remember this is winter, the regular flu season, the BsAs Bronchitis Crud season, cold weather, and the beginning of the month when folks have just been paid...maybe. Reported flights and apt. rentals cancelled but no sign of lower prices. Everything still open around here. I was here last year for the campo strike and the fires so deja vu all over again, Nancy From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 18:15:17 2009 From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Swine flu alert Message-ID: <985240.41064.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear TAngo L Members: RE: questions on the swine flu epidemic, in BA. As I understand it, they are requiring visitors to sometimes wear a mask in Ezeiza and be willing to have their temp. checked, for fever, before entering the country. Also, in the last two days, la practica, "Me Rio del Plata", on Mondays and DNI, as well as a few other classes have suspended their schedules until further notice. Other than that.........we don't know exactly how many cases there are here as no one seems to trust the government figures. If they are indeed true, then, I would say the danger of getting sick, with flu type A are not too bad, right now. Vamos aver. Suffice it to say.......if you are coming down, be sure to bring plenty of Purell, (as the local stores have run out and will continue to, for awhile); any flu medications you have from home that you like, (as they are also in short supply) and be prepared to wait in a ridiculous line, if you happen to get really sick as the hospitals are overflowing, at the moment. House calls are best, if you can get some doctor to do that, for you. Also, try to get on the FB sites or internet with your favorite milongas to get the updated cancellations, etc. before you take that expensive taxi ride there only to be turned away. They seem to be changing, daily. Even tho the present flu shots supposedly don't work on this swine flu, it's probably not a bad idea to get one, just in case. Lastly......and I know this is the most difficult........try to get enough rest and not drive yourself to hard, with the usual "tango tourist" pace, if possible, as a strong immune system is the best defense, right? Right. There are still plenty of milongas out there to enjoy, among many other BA entertainments........just try to use some common sense and you should be fine. Take care and keep dancing. Saludos, tangueros!! D.B. From felixydelgado at hotmail.com Sun Jul 5 11:49:53 2009 From: felixydelgado at hotmail.com (Felix Delgado) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Requesting Truth about Impact of Swine Flu on Buenos Aires milongas In-Reply-To: <985240.41064.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <985240.41064.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a trip planned to go to Buenos Aires (for the first time) at the end of this month. I am still waiting to see what develops, but a declaration by the government of a 'swine flu emergency' is not encouraging. I have family members in Mexico City and their emergency a few months ago essentially shut down the city for several weeks. Residents were captives in their own homes and I can't imagine what tourists did. There's no point in going to Buenos Aires if the milongas are closed and public activities are virtually non-existent. Even if the milongas stay open, this declaration of an emergency is very likely to diminish the number of people going to the milongas. A friend of mine who travels regularly to Buenos Aires for tango just came back and he told me that were 'a lot less people than usual in the milongas, and not many foreigners'. This was before the emergency was declared. So, I think there needs to be some truth about what is really happening in the milongas in Buenos Aires as a result of this declaration of a 'swine flu emergency'. Given what my friend has said, the reports of 'milongas still open' posted to this list may not give an accurate picture of the situation. Another thing to take into account is the ability of the Argentine health care system to respond to the epidemic. If a tourist gets sick, he or she will be competing for medical care and medication. Do you really think Argentina has a sufficient supply of Tamiflu?. Swine flu has killed people all over the globe, so this is not something to take lightly. I don't mean to sound an alarm, but there is a potentially undesirable situation here, at the very least a waste of money because you came to dance and the milongas are either closed or as poorly attended as at home, or worse you get sick and put your life at risk because you can't get the health care you need. Some honest answers for some honest concerns, please. Felix _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From tango at bostonphotographs.com Sun Jul 5 12:56:13 2009 From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:56:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Requesting Truth about Impact of Swine Flu on Buenos Aires milongas In-Reply-To: References: <985240.41064.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm in BsAs now. A few milongas and classes have been canceled but not many. Attendence at milongas is pretty light, but they are not deserted. I'd say there are half the people there were before the health emergency was declared, which is quite low as this is the low season to begin with. It's hard to determine a trend, this seems a knee jerk reaction to the government "emergemcy" declaration Sorin my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Felix Delgado wrote: > > I have a trip planned to go to Buenos Aires (for the first time) at the end > of this month. I am still waiting to see what develops, but a declaration by > the government of a 'swine flu emergency' is not encouraging. I have family > members in Mexico City and From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 15:24:30 2009 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Requesting Truth about Impact of Swine Flu on Buenos Aires milongas Message-ID: <733773.98185.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you are concerned, then stay where you are. I brought Tamiflu and alcohol gel and masks with me. Yes, the milongas are about 50% right now. But if you wait and inflation continues, there will be even fewer folks in the milongas. This is not the season for tourists ( that's why I come now). If you have a compromised immune system as did almost all the mortalities in the US, then you should not venture out.....anywhere. WHO has declared this a pandemic, meaning it is world wide and mutating daily. There are no vaccinations for it now. In BsAs it is winter and the usual colds and ordinary flu are upon us. I imagine folks with a little sniffle are scared it might be H1 no they are not going out. That is good for those of us who are still healthy. I ALWAYS get sick when I come here: drastic change in climate, air pollution, new varities of germs, lots of kissing, holding hands with too many folks, etc etc. I bring an arsenal of comforting things - Nyquil and Puffs with Vicks Vaporub, Tylenol Cold Capsules, and tough it out. Several folks have given you honest answers ( this is my second post on topic). No one can guarantee you the future or what your dance experience will be like. I have danced five tandas in three days with an 83 year old gentleman whose much younger wife is a medical doctor. I have also watched a decline in numbers of folks in the milongas and the quality of dancing over the 13 years I have been coming here. I hope this helps you make a very personal decision. Nancy --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Felix Delgado wrote: > From: Felix Delgado > Subject: [Tango-L] Requesting Truth about Impact of Swine Flu on Buenos Aires milongas > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 11:49 AM > > I have a trip planned to go to Buenos Aires (for the first > time) at the end of this month. I am still waiting to see > what develops, but a declaration by the government of a > 'swine flu emergency' is not encouraging. I have family > members in Mexico City and their emergency a few months ago > essentially shut down the city for several weeks. Residents > were captives in their own homes and I can't imagine what > tourists did. There's no point in going to Buenos Aires if > the milongas are closed and public activities are virtually > non-existent. Even if the milongas stay open, this > declaration of an emergency is very likely to diminish the > number of people going to the milongas. A friend of mine who > travels regularly to Buenos Aires for tango just came back > and he told me that were 'a lot less people than usual in > the milongas, and not many foreigners'. This was before the > emergency was declared. > > So, I think there needs to be some truth about what is > really happening in the milongas in Buenos Aires as a result > of this declaration of a 'swine flu emergency'. Given what > my friend has said, the reports of 'milongas still open' > posted to this list may not give an accurate picture of the > situation. > > Another thing to take into account is the ability of the > Argentine health care system to respond to the epidemic. If > a tourist gets sick, he or she will be competing for medical > care and medication. Do you really think Argentina has a > sufficient supply of Tamiflu?. Swine flu has killed people > all over the globe, so this is not something to take > lightly. > > I don't mean to sound an alarm, but there is a potentially > undesirable situation here, at the very least a waste of > money because you came to dance and the milongas are either > closed or as poorly attended as at home, or worse you get > sick and put your life at risk because you can't get the > health care you need. > > Some honest answers for some honest concerns, please. > > Felix > ? ? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about > storage limits. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 01:21:57 2009 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:21:57 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Requesting Truth about Impact of Swine Flu on Buenos Aires milongas Message-ID: <221C15D1-8CF5-45AB-831A-5B932CE39C88@gmail.com> For what it's worth, I just noticed the following announcement about Practica X closing until August. > From: Pablo Inza > July 5 at 5:30am > debido a la expansi?n en la ciudad de buenos aires del virus H1N1, > conocido como gripe A, practica x no abrira sus puertas durante el > mes de julio 2009 > > reabriremos las puertas el martes 4 de agosto. > los esperamos From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sat Jul 4 15:14:54 2009 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:14:54 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Gripe-A or Swine Flu in Buenos Aires Message-ID: <4A4FAA2E.8030904@lavidacondeby.com> As many of you may know I live in Buenos Aires. The media is making the Gripe A panic situation. I had Gripe B which is the plain old flu. I got it on Monday night. Guys, this is winter, this is flu season. People get the flu during flu season. They say that The doctors really don't know the difference other than if your fever stays high then you have Gripe A. Duh. I was at my HMO today Swiss Medical and it was empty. There was no one there...as in millions of patients trying to get help. Friends told me the same was true at Hospital Aleman earlier in the week. I can tell you that the streets are emptier than normal, even more emptier than in January. That is because the government has scared the hell out of people. You can't turn on the TV without some special news program blaring out on Gripe A. The schools have closed earlier, in some cities, they have closed the nightclubs and restaurant-bars. Pretty much here in Cap?tal Federal everything is still open except the schools. I didn't dance last week because I was sick, but my friends told me that the milongas were light of people. They have been light of people for the last couple months more because of our economic situation not because of the flu. For us going to milongas every night is expensive. Do not expect prices to go down here. We still are suffering from continuing inflation and prices continue to go up. Prices cannot drop because our expenses keep doubling. You are seeing some sales on clothes earlier this year, but that is about it. The good news for you all is that the peso is 3.80 to the USD. It is still less expensive here for you. You should still come. Buenos Aires is always a great place to visit no matter what time of year. From geoffww at bigpond.net.au Sun Jul 12 10:00:25 2009 From: geoffww at bigpond.net.au (Geoff Walker) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:00:25 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Joaquin Amenabar's musicality book In-Reply-To: <4A306135.5070309@bigpond.net.au> References: <4A306135.5070309@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <4A59EC79.5010704@bigpond.net.au> It looks like Joaquin's book + DVD is now back in stock : http://www.joaquinamenabar.com/ Geoff Geoff Walker wrote: > I too can recommend his book + DVD, but unfortunately it seems that it > is now sold out, at least temporarily : > http://www.joaquinamenabar.com/ > > Geoff Walker > Sydney > > > Myk Dowling wrote : > > > > Andy Ungureanu wrote: >> It's correct, but not that simple. >> Someone who really knows (and can explain it) is: >> http://www.joaquinamenabar.com.ar/baile.html >> >> I can warmly recommend his musicality workshops for dancers. > > > I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have > to agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms > is absolutely excellent. Well worth the price of the Book/DVD, too. > > > > And I have to say, watching him dance to a tune that he knows is > just magical. > > > > Myk, > > in Canberra > > > > > From pdtango at bigpond.net.au Mon Jul 13 01:50:32 2009 From: pdtango at bigpond.net.au (Patio De Tango) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:50:32 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] 2009 Australian Tango Championship - results Message-ID: <005901ca037d$d5f72660$81e57320$@net.au> The 4th Australian Tango Championships (Salon Open) occurred on Saturday July 11th in Sydney. Dozens of professional and amateur dancers from Sydney and around Australia gathered to dance in front of the judges which included Buenos Aires Tango professionals - Ezequiel Farfaro and Alejandra Gutty. The Salon winners (Pedro and Sophia Alvarez) and Stage winners (Fabio Robles and Ana Andre) will represent Australia in the 7th World Tango Championship in Buenos Aires being held from 21 - 31 August 2009. Australian Tango Championship Results: SALON - Pedro and Sophia Alvarez (Dance school -PATIO de TANGO, Sydney) 2nd place - Jairo Rivera and Amy Teuchert 3rd place - Jake Hart and Ka Earl Tan STAGE - Fabio Robles and Ana Andre (Dance School - Back to Back, Melbourne) 2nd place - Damian Thompson and Julia Martens 3rd place - Craig Petersen & Megan Currie From tango at kidojo.it Wed Jul 15 03:04:55 2009 From: tango at kidojo.it (tango@kidojo.it) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:04:55 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Italy: some youtubes - tango apilado Message-ID: Hi, maybe you will like them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-cgCXeSKPg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0wXzmYnmFU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ga4nMwWoY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81zipnn89o that one is in italian, sorry! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttn0pRu0GO8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5wH8__Uowo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ofDl2kfedM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsc2zLrQdmw saludos Patricia Muller www.kidojo.it From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 21:49:19 2009 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:49:19 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] [ElTango] Tango Classes with Exotic Names: Promise or Pretension? In-Reply-To: <4A60C32C.2020005@yahoo.com> References: <125426.86166.qm@web53301.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A60C32C.2020005@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Ilene Marder wrote: > > Judith Prister wrote: > > > Pretension. It is a marketing ploy to attract interest when the > > teachers have nothing substantial to offer. > > I recently took a > class by Daniela called Lovers Embrace and it was the best class I had EVER > attended on the details of embrace....everyone wanted more and all we did > was focus on embrace. If I had been of a more cynical mind I would have > missed one of the most dynamic & important classes I've been to yet. I tend to lean more towards Judith's side here in that the more pretentious the title, the more suspicious I am that the class is just a bunch of bs. If I knew nothing of the instructor and was approaching the class blind, I would not be very inclined to attend a class called "Lover's Embrace." I'd be far more inclined to attend the exact same class were it labelled something more objective and factual, such as, "Detailed Particulars of the Tango Close Embrace." Huck From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 12:27:53 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] 3 Styles of tango Message-ID: <917279.78066.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Can anyone help me locate an old website that had a tongue-in-cheek comparison of milonguero, salon, and nuevo tango? It was 3x3 chart with each stylist commenting on each of the styles (i.e., nuevo dancers kicked at everything in sight, and nobody hugged milongueros in real life). No luck with Google. Thanks, Trini From keith at totango.net Sat Jul 25 13:12:00 2009 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] 3 styles of Tango Message-ID: <60257.65.93.52.240.1248541920.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> A very cool guy called Peter Bengsten made it and allowed me to put it on my site. Bottom of the page. http://ToTANGO.net From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 13:49:43 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] 3 styles of Tango Message-ID: <836915.90956.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Thanks, Keith! --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Keith Elshaw wrote: > A very cool guy called Peter Bengsten > made it and allowed me to put it on > my site. Bottom of the page. > > http://ToTANGO.net > _______________________________________________ > From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 14:02:35 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? Message-ID: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi all, I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and Marianna Montes. I think highly of Sebastian and Marianna as teachers and dancers. As I watched this performance, however, I began to think that he was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I realized that somewhere they had wandered into modern dance or ballet territory. That's what one expects when one sees modern dance or ballet. I'm not knowledgeable enough to figure out when that change occurred for me. I'd like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance or ballet think. http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk I'd like to hear from those who can analyze it intelligently and dispassionately, and not just give personal opinions. Thanks, Trini From keith at totango.net Sat Jul 25 14:19:41 2009 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Message-ID: <61280.65.93.52.240.1248545981.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> I am sympathetic to lovely dancers who have talent and grace and skill. I appreciate the tone of their comments. I just wish they would add: This is performance tango, or tango for a place where everybody is doing nuevo and there is disregard for other dancers on the floor. Please don't do this in a social dancing context. People hate being kicked in the neck by show-off dancers. Thank you. Enjoy your tango whatever kind it is. Just please be considerate of other dancers. From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 04:27:43 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > > I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and > Marianna Montes.? > > http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk > My personal view is that I found it clumsy and boring, especially Sebastian who isn't trained for this type?of dancing.?I love to watch great tango performers because they can do what others can only dream about. They inspire us. But if I want to see something like this, I'll watch the world's best latin couples dance a Show-Rumba and do it a thousand times better. Just my opinion. Jack From bertil36 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 11:43:31 2009 From: bertil36 at hotmail.com (Bertil Nestorius) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I always get very surpriced at the bad respons on this list for this couple. For me this is probably the best couple in world, wenn it comes to being able to dance all styles of tango. There is nothing of clumsiness in their dance but an abundance of connection. For me people who don't see that cannot understand dance. Back to Trini first question, to my experience there is in this little new stuff in this piece, all the lifts they are doing, were they doing already 2007 if not earlier. But what I noticed in the last couple of years is that Sebastian and Mariana are starting to put more distinction between the different styles. Their classic number have become even more classical and so on. And I don't get the feeling he is going to lift here over his head. I'm not a big fan of lifts but these are done so smoothe you can't really get mad at them, and Sebastian is always using Marianas energy thats why it stays dancing and doesn't become gymnastics. I've seen much worse in tango, and usually these couples are not dancing Nuevo ;-). Best regards, Bertil Nestorius > Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:27:43 -0700 > From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com > To: Tango-L at mit.edu > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think? > > >> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) >> >> I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and >> Marianna Montes. > >> http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk >> > > My personal view is that I found it clumsy and boring, especially Sebastian > who isn't trained for this type of dancing. I love to watch great tango performers > because they can do what others can only dream about. They inspire us. > > But if I want to see something like this, I'll watch the world's best latin couples > dance a Show-Rumba and do it a thousand times better. > > Just my opinion. > > Jack > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx From damian.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 11:54:31 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:54:31 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Trini, Jack........... It was an incredibly difficult piece to dance to to begin...? 99% of dancers should really sit for the subtleties that are in this music are very difficult to dance to, let alone do it exceptionally well. Remember, you don't have to like their style, or their interpretation to appreciate that what they did do, was both very graceful and incredibly skillful. According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault? Not that it's about you, but I also feel that to critique others, one should be at a certain level.. Are you at their level?? Probably not - I don't know you, but considering every teacher in BA except for a few attend the classes of SA and MM, then they obviously have something that we all want.? If any of us wanted to watch ballroom, then I don't think that we would be watching this. Clumsy?? How?? How exactly was it clumsy?? How did they not move gracefully?? How did they do it with a lack of skill?? Any of it? That to me is just a blind stupid statement.? Yes - I say it as I see it.? I am not 'flaming' here.? But if you are going to make an incredibly bold and IMHO unjust statement, then back it up. I urge any of you to try successfully and gracefully the gancho lift pianazzo at 4.20 without feeling stressed, off balance or uncomfortable....Let alone the frozen boleo leading to other 'nuevo' moves at 5.00.? The control and skill for that... well, try it and then comment.? I do do the above moves and very comfortably with my partner and other skilled dancers.? Like the ocho cortado, they take practice and repitition to do and to do well. With reference to the tango growing - it has grown since it began and will continue to. Bertil.... I agree with you - although I'm a Chicho fan when it comes to musicality, it is incredibly hard to fault (if at all) this couple. To date, the most successful tango couple in the world.? More so than any other, as you say, they dance all styles and blend them better than anyone. No overhead lifts even visible and I do do those when I do stage tango.? It's a part of that genre, even Arce/Montes did in other performances when dancing stage - their versatility is beyond question.. IMO. Damian From damian.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 12:07:07 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:07:07 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <61280.65.93.52.240.1248545981.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> References: <61280.65.93.52.240.1248545981.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: Keith, An excellent comment and observation. I would also add... adjust maybe that any dancer can dance with disregard (refer to another thread on 'nuevo versus ... ") be they milonguero or nuevo. It is the dancer, not the style that determines regard or disregard for other dancers..... Looking forward to meeting you at the next Para Los Ninos ball in Brisbane, the organisers are very good friends of mine! Damian From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 12:37:36 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534089.85780.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Noughts > > According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as > smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most > incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault?? > No, I'm not a professional, so of course I can't dance anywhere near their standard and I'm guessing that's true of most of the people on this list. But when they start to dance figures that are very similar to what I've seen in latin dancing, especially Rumba [for shows, not competition], then they should expect to be compared with the best latin dancers and?not just tango dancers.?And, on that basis, IMHO, when attempting those figures, they're not smooth, graceful or very skilful. To even things up, when I see world class ballroom tango dancers try to use elements from Argentine Tango, they also look very silly. Jack From damian.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 12:52:48 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:52:48 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <534089.85780.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <534089.85780.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As an ex professional ballroomer... I personally don't see the Rumba in any of their dancing... maybe because most smooth dancing has similar elements.... the music is often the differential. Walz had many of the same steps as Foxtrot, take away the music and show the sames steps, then you tell me which dance they are doing.... Even the most seasoned professional would have trouble with that. Rumba done professionally, even an amateur will immediately learn to lead their footwork with a toe... use of hips, flowing arms.... shorter steps very dissimilar to tango... None of this was in that dance... Curious, where did you see rumba here? Timing? Again different to Rumba, they did no 'figures', none.... if you can show or enlighten us, then that would be great. As for the best in the world.. fake ballroom dancers, even the best don't touch this couple or even the worst couple around in tango for connection... timing, yes. Presentation, yes. Preparation, yes... but are they better... who cares? They are ballroom...... Damian 2009/7/27 Jack Dylan : > >> From: Noughts >> >> According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as >> smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most >> incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault?? > > > No, I'm not a professional, so of course I can't dance anywhere near their > standard and I'm guessing that's true of most of the people on this list. > But when they start to dance figures that are very similar to what I've seen > in latin dancing, especially Rumba [for shows, not competition], then they > should expect to be compared with the best latin dancers and?not just tango > dancers.?And, on that basis, IMHO, when attempting those figures, they're > not smooth, graceful or very skilful. > > To even things up, when I see world class ballroom tango dancers try to use > elements from Argentine Tango, they also look very silly. > > Jack > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From syarzhuk at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 13:13:38 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > but I also feel that to critique others, one should be at a certain level.. Are you at their level? I strongly disagree with that. I do not need to be a professional singer to be able to say that I like the voice of one singer and dislike the voice of another. I do not need to be a heavy metal guitar player to be able to say that I like Kirk Hammett's solos and dislike Yngwie Malmsteen's. So I don't see why one should be a dancer at a certain level to be able to critique others. For example, I know I am many, many orders of magnitude below Chicho, and will never be; but it doesn't mean I have to admire everything he does... most of the videos of him that I saw were full of very complex and precise movements that looked very fussy - like he was compromising the "tango feeling" for the extra complexity, but the result wasn't quite satisfying. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) From damian.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 13:24:36 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:24:36 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Indeed, this is what an opinion is is it not? Like the old saying says, "an opinion is like an ............, we all have one..." Sometimes better left unsaid let alone written for an entire undisclosed list.... But note, that I did say, at least justify your comment... your position. Is this not one of the guidelines of this list? For every positive, a negative.. every pro, a con. But with reason, then it's worth at least either reading or listening to. Being of a certain level, should only add credence to the argument.. the perspective, but as we all know, is not a be all and end all....... Damian 2009/7/27 Sergey Kazachenko : >> but I also feel that to critique others, one should be at a certain level.. Are you at their level? > > I strongly disagree with that. I do not need to be a professional > singer to be able to say that I like the voice of one singer and > dislike the voice of another. I do not need to be a heavy metal guitar > player to be able to say that I like Kirk Hammett's solos and dislike > Yngwie Malmsteen's. So I don't see why one should be a dancer at a > certain level to be able to critique others. For example, I know I am > many, many orders of magnitude below Chicho, and will never be; but it > doesn't mean I have to admire everything he does... most of the videos > of him that I saw were full of very complex and precise movements that > looked very fussy - like he was compromising the "tango feeling" for > the extra complexity, but the result wasn't quite satisfying. > > Sergey From timmytango at aol.com Sun Jul 26 13:38:19 2009 From: timmytango at aol.com (timmytango@aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:38:19 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] NA-E: Manuel and Ronda workshop and milonga in cleveland. Aug 8 Message-ID: <8CBDC2EFF914470-112C-7ABE@webmail-me20.sysops.aol.com> Saturday, Aug 8 Manuel and Ronda Patino from Atlanta, GA will teach 3 classes in the close embrace at Silhoette Dance studio 12501 Madison Ave Lakewood, Ohio 44107 class 1 12:30 Sacadas and Boleos class 2 2:00 Turns class 3 3:30 rhythm & dynamic movements ( where to put the quick-quick) Milonga 9:00 Manuel is our DJ Private lessons are available at $55 an hour Sunday, Aug 9 See Manuel and Ronda at Cleveland's newest Argentine Restaurant La Boca 5800 Detroit Ave. lessons 6:00 to 7:00 Dancing from 7:00 to 11:00 for more info contact Tim Pogros aka TimmyTango 440/748-2204 or 440/227-4070 www.tangocleveland.com From arrabaltango at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 26 14:36:33 2009 From: arrabaltango at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andrew_RYSER_SZYMA=D1SKI?=) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:36:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <83433.82798.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You don't need to be a professional dancer [or musician], indeed, you don't need to know anything about dancing to realise that they dance to the music about 5% of the time. The rest bears no relation. This is what makes it look clumsy. All that is missing is a tightrope. Yes, the unrelated juxtaposition of sound and movement is a fad in Modern Dance going back well over 50 years, and worked pretty well for Cage & Cunnigham. But this is supposed to be tango......? They picked the most undanceable piece by Piazzolla and used it as a backdrop. The poor man must be turning in his grave. Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI, 23b All Saints Road, London, W11 1HE, 07944 128 739. --- On Sat, 25/7/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) however, I began to think that he > was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I > realized that somewhere they had wandered into modern dance > or ballet territory.? That's what one expects when one > sees modern dance or ballet.? I'm not knowledgeable > enough to figure out when that change occurred for me.? > I'd like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance > or ballet think. > > http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk From abungureanu at googlemail.com Sun Jul 26 15:03:33 2009 From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:03:33 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <83433.82798.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <83433.82798.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6CA885.7030405@googlemail.com> Am 26.07.2009 20:36 schrieb Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI : > You don't need to be a professional dancer [or musician], indeed, you don't need to know anything about dancing to realise that they dance to the music about 5% of the time. The rest bears no relation. This is what makes it look clumsy. All that is missing is a tightrope. > Sorry Andrew, I don't know how such a topic can be discussed in a correct manner, but for me they are at least 95% of the time perfectly in line with the music. The music is indeed not very easy, but I heard it the same way they did. I think individual people hear the music differently. There may be a possibility to analyse the music and the corresponding movements, but it is far beyond the technical ability of a mailing list. By the way, many professional choreographers take far less care about the music than the top tango professionals. Andy From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 15:11:15 2009 From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:11:15 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] you tube In-Reply-To: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: while the issues of musicality and "being on the beat" are being discussed in such fine detail. PLEASE remember that you tube SUX for the relationship of the sound and the video, it is a well known issue with watching youtube dance videos. maybe this is a good time for the arm chair dancers to just sit back and enjoy someone elses dance pleasures. certainly, if you cant do it better than them ................... The Tangonista Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 From vytis at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 18:49:59 2009 From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:49:59 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] > 4. What do you think? (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IMHO, as a fan of ballet and modern dance, when her leg flew outstretched above her hips eg 5:49 and 6:00 and she suspended it there eg 5:00 made it ballet like. But what style was it? If I look at http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html (and many other sites have similar interpretations) the style fits into Fantasia. They are excellent at this kind of dance but I do not know if they can really translate it into traditional tango dancing. However, http://buffalotango.com/html/l_-_tango_styles.html suggests that Fantasia/Show tango will help you in your "normal' tango. BTW, the move at 4:20 (and similar) was demonstrated several times in a tango show in Melbourne on the weekend by salon/milonguero dancers. Is it a trend? I do like what Sebastian said at the beginning. > Hi all, > > I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and > Marianna Montes. I think highly of Sebastian and Marianna as teachers and > dancers. As I watched this performance, however, I began to think that he > was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I realized that > somewhere they had wandered into modern dance or ballet territory. That's > what one expects when one sees modern dance or ballet. I'm not > knowledgeable enough to figure out when that change occurred for me. I'd > like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance or ballet think. > > http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk > > I'd like to hear from those who can analyze it intelligently and > dispassionately, and not just give personal opinions. > > Thanks, > Trini > > > From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 21:01:06 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? Message-ID: <133242.8856.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Let me be clear. I never criticized their dancing or said that they were bad dancers. I just stated that I think they wandered into modern dance or ballet. When I was a beginner (back when videos of tango were hard to find), I bought a video tape of a ballet company doing tango. To my eye, it was clearly ballet, not tango. If a clip of this was shown to those untrained in tango, would they think that parts of the dance was modern dance or ballet and not tango? Being something of a skeptic, I'm not going to automatically assume that what someone says is "the truth" just because he/she is an authority. If Sebastian said that what he was doing was the square dance, I'm not going to blindly agree that it is the square dance. There are moments at around 5:02, 6:16, 6:58, and the ending when the character of the dance seems to change and it appears more like modern dance than tango. I'm not trained in modern dance, so I'm trying to figure out the elements that would make someone think "oh, this is modern dance or ballet" instead of "oh, this is tango". Some of the responses from people seem to be too rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. In what people have been trained to think. But if you're able to step out of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see? Trini de Pittsburgh From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 22:21:46 2009 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] tango in a small midwest town Message-ID: <341864.18004.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> We are a small group of (amateur) dancers and musicians working collaboratively in a small midwest town. We love tango and work very hard helping each other the best we can. Our first concert as a group was in our town's little theater. You can view our very first work together here: Mano a mano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoOM86TB5bg&feature=related La Cumparsita: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGEB15KwqCU&feature=related No te vayas Bandoneon / Preludio para la cruz Del Sur http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-RVs9Qb6ZU enjoy! Amaury From keith at totango.net Sun Jul 26 14:00:30 2009 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Message-ID: <60153.65.93.52.240.1248631230.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> May I share some thoughts? If there were no new people coming-in to tango in a flow, we would be back to the dark ages from the 50's to late 80's when all there was was tango por export (that video was a version from today of that). But, isn't it pretty much a given that when big, flashy shows are touring, local activities get a boost? When nothing big is going around, things settle back into recruitment harder-to-do. So, when a Forever Tango or TangoX2 or whatever is happening, everybody benefits. If only from the opportunity to dress-up and go out for a special tango evening. (I mean - if for instance Miguel or Osvaldo Zotto come through town - why wouldn't you avail yourself of the opportunity to watch the Best? Great dancers are inspirational). The dancers always teach as much as they can, so all-of-a-sudden you have a few couples doing business with the local scene. Bringing money into it, too. Studio rentals and all that. When the big dancers teach, they show fancy things for a variety of reasons. It's easy for them. It's what they know. It's what they think the market wants. It's the way it's always been. Etc. Of course, advanced dancers who love social tango tend not to be a big fan of this way. We'd like people to see and learn tango tango (instead of stuff they'll never be able to do unless they want to do shows). So, I think a lot of teachers who love tango tango have come this way over the years. There are some fine professional dancers/teachers from the US and Europe as well as Argentina who bring learners into the close embrace and show them simply how to move as opposed to "doing things." Showing them how to actually dance in the ronda instead of thinking and trying stage dancing. The nuevo thing I see as a relative of tango por export as regards the travelling teachers. It's something they perceive as what the market wants. And as they travel around and do workshops, they are generating help for the local market. Local teachers and schools really benefit from this. It's just good business to bring in teachers, of course. And naturally, the local teachers tend to teach the same way and things. That makes sense, too. from their perspective. So - there has always been a pretty high churn. Lots of people drop out. Men first. And we all know what that leads to. The ones who stay and get good usually reach that point about the time they realize taking classes isn't for them anymore. They just want to go dancing a lot. And go visit B.A. This is the core support for local milongas. The people who always come out and love listening to the music if the dj is good. The legacy of the way people are introduced to tango has a lasting effect on the people who never actually get to the point of just dancing and forgetting learning things you'd actually never do on a crowded dance floor. Lot's of bumping and elbows and now feet flying high, etc. Often not great music flow. People not KNOWING often that the music isn't good; so for people who can dance, those types are just going through the motions. Blissfully unaware that things could be better. They haven't been shown. So the good dancers start staying home more often. This seems to inevitably happen as time goes by. Then, when they go out to dance because they miss it, they find the place has a great many people who've recently started tango all having fun with the same lack of awareness as the last crop. I'm doing the dangerous "generalizing" thing. Can't be helped in having a discussion. We all have biases. The world is big enough to accommodate them all. I declare mine: I love the social tango. I love a crowded dance floor. I love the music and get steamed - because there is SO MUCH GREAT MUSIC - when dj's play guck or don't have a feel for flow and energy management. I try to make the heart of the scene beautiful dancing experiences as opposed to the teaching/churning part others take care of very well. When I teach, I tell them I'm not "teaching." I want to shut-off the brain memory and get their muscle memory and emotions turned-on instead. Get them into a relationship with the music. Have a conversation with each other inside that. Do it all in harmony with all the other dancers on the floor. I show them right away what I was - and most people are - only shown after they've been dancing a while and take privates: body position and walking smoothly and rhythmically. It's easier for a person to learn the proper way once than to always have to keep re-learning in a new way. Of course, that can mean less money coming in. Which is why I don't do it as a "business." I personally am not trying to create future income by feeding things out in little bits so they'll keep coming back. Grading them so they can go to the "next level" and all that. Because, in the main, I see that as perpetuation of tango-por-export as much as anything else. Just me. I want to communicate the love of the social tango experience. There's room for people like me, too. Maybe one day I'll put a video of myself on YouTube. Not likely. I don't dance for other people. I dance to be in the cocoon with my partner and the music. I think a lot of teachers would do well to understand that their students intuitively are looking for this experience. The churn happens because something isn't unfolding as they desire (without being to articulate it). I wish more tango tango was shown. More men would stick; more women would have fun. My sense is that what I describe is happening all around the world. It might be a bit subterranean; but people who really love tango (not mainly for business) are always going to move in this direction. Go for it, guys! Build a local social scene, not a teaching business. Lots of people will be cheering you on. Cheers, Keith Elshaw ToTANGO.net From al at sgi.com Mon Jul 27 02:45:00 2009 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:45:00 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: <133242.8856.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <133242.8856.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6D4CEC.3040901@sgi.com> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > If a clip of this was shown to those untrained in tango, would they think that > parts of the dance was modern dance or ballet and not tango? Personally, I'd think labels are just that: labels. They are necessarily reductionist in nature (that is their force, as reduction is what makes us able to simplify the complex world around to process it; but it's also their weakness), and I think it does reality injustice to attach *too* much importance to them. From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 27 08:12:38 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: <235663.47171.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <951534.40167.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <534089.85780.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160139.19628.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Noughts damian.thompson at gmail.com >? Curious, where did you see rumba here?? Timing?? Again > different to Rumba, they did no 'figures', none.... if you can show or > enlighten us, then that would be great. > I'm surprised that you ask but, since you did, let's start with 'underarm turns' that are common in all latin dances as well as Swing / Rock'n'Roll. But, unlike tango, these are mostly danced with the couple separated. Wasn't aware that they were a staple of tango but but this couple do EIGHT including?3 together at 4.11. Then there's the separation to one-hand hold at 3.30 and taking the lady off her feet at 4.20. At 5.05, after an u/a turn he ends up backing lady. He does the same thing at 6.05 and remains backing lady for about 5 seconds. Common in Rumba but how is tango? At 6.57, after another u/a turn, there's a ladies head-duck. Salsa dancers will be familiar with this and is now very common in Show-Rumba. The figure that starts at 6.57 continues until a separation at 7.12 and is very Rumba-like. Now you could say that 'anything goes' as long as they're dancing to tango music and, if that's your opinion, fine. But when does it stop being tango and become something else - modern dance? Btw, all latin dances have a lot in common and I chose Rumba because it's the only slow latin dance and is therefore closest in tempo?to the dance in the video. But, I agree that the timing is very different - just talking about the figures. Jack From patangos at yahoo.com Mon Jul 27 14:58:33 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? Message-ID: <533848.60540.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > Now you could say that 'anything goes' as long as they're > dancing to tango music and, if that's your opinion, fine. But when does it stop being tango and become something else - modern dance? That's what I was getting at. I've heard people say too many times that anything goes, that tango is anything you want it to be when it's not really true. Even Mariana recognizes this when she refers to still respecting tango as a cultural legacy, to which Sebastian agrees. Apparently bounds do exist, but what are they? What does it mean to still respect tango as a cultural legacy? Movements can develop independently in different genres. Perhaps some movements are actually borrowed from modern dance. Fine, then be honest and state so. Some of those movements (ganchos) where he lifts her completely off the floor seem to borrow from ballet. Take a photo still of such a moment, digitize it so that they are both in leotards, and would it look like two ballet dancers in a classic pose? Suppose that was done for some clips. How much can you borrow and still call it tango? It strikes me that people just aren't willing to verbalize bounds, except for those running the World Tango Championships. As I watch the clip more, I realize that part of the reason this performance reminds me of modern dance or a ballet is all of the posing. They don't strike me as pauses, but as poses. Her ability to dance is taken away for a moment, even ornaments. In pauses, a tension can still exist that she can influence. I don't see that in these lifts. Trini de Pittsburgh From john at lowry.com.au Mon Jul 27 18:39:10 2009 From: john at lowry.com.au (John Lowry) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:39:10 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Performance. John > > Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think? > > ....................Some of the responses from people seem to be too > rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. In what > people have been trained to think. But if you're able to step out > of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see? > > Trini de Pittsburgh From esjune at hotmail.com Tue Jul 28 17:22:05 2009 From: esjune at hotmail.com (June es) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:22:05 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Message-ID: Dancers of different genres do from time to time extend their boundaries or cross the border. An example of this extension is illustrated by a renowned ballroom dance couple interpreting Piazzolla in both clips below. What does it matter about the "steps" they use when they are true to the music and both feel and fill it with honesty and integrity. To me those qualities define the dance and the dancer. The music is Piazzolla and the dancers moved as instruments participating in Piazzolla's music. In the second clip the couple extend away from rumba but retain their connection with the music. Love it or hate it, the performance is essentially Piazzolla. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related _________________________________________________________________ Use Windows Live Messenger from your Hotmail inbox Web IM has arrived! http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=823454 From damian.thompson at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 17:44:52 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:44:52 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simple and to the point.... It will always be different from CE dancers or Milonguero style... 2009/7/28 John Lowry > > Performance. > John > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think? > > > > ....................Some of the responses from people seem to be too > > rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. ?In what > > people have been trained to think. ?But if you're able to step out > > of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see? > > > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From john at lowry.com.au Tue Jul 28 19:39:57 2009 From: john at lowry.com.au (John Lowry) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:39:57 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 40, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35C4056E-8469-4F78-8BDF-498299A73E38@lowry.com.au> > From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think? > > ........It strikes me that people just aren't willing to verbalize > bounds, except for those running the World Tango > Championships............... > Trini de Pittsburgh And even there, "verbalise" and "actualise" are not necessarily the same thing! John From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 29 00:21:00 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45504.27882.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: June es esjune at hotmail.com? > > Dancers of different genres do from time to time extend their boundaries or > cross the border. An example of this extension is illustrated by a renowned > ballroom dance couple interpreting Piazzolla in both clips below. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related > Thanks June, I've never seen these videos before. This couple is from Finland, which probably explains why they were able to incorporate tango elements?in their dance before any other ballroom couple - at least, as far as I know. And?they complement Trini's video of Sebastian and Marianna and her question - when is tango tango and not something else? Perhaps the answer is - it depends on who's dancing. If a well-known tango couple, such as Sebastian and Marianna were to dance these routines in the same way, nuevo aficionados?would probably say it's still Tango, although to me, it's clearly Rumba. ? Jack From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Jul 29 11:57:52 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <45504.27882.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <297824.41713.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > > From: June es esjune at hotmail.com? > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related > Thanks June, I've never seen these videos before. This > couple is from Finland, which probably explains why they were able to incorporate tango elements?in their dance before any other ballroom couple - at least, as far as I know. > The first video was particularly interesting with a portion clearly dedicated to tango. And it was obviously tango. If they had incorporated some of Sebastian's & Mariana's moves, instead, I bet folks would say "nice rumba moves" instead of saying "nice tango section". In response to Damian's comment that S & M's performance was different from milonguero and close-embrace, I'd add that it is also far different from salon, as well. When tango is taken to such an extreme, then why not just say "I have evolved a new dance form that derives from Argentine tango and I'm calling it Tango Nuevo. Anything goes." And I suspect that if Chicho or Sebastian or someone else would declare something like that, all the other nuevo wannabees would nod their heads and follow suite. In fact, they would then have more freedom in interpreting this new form in anyway they want. Traditionalists would then say, "Okay, have fun developing your new form to your hearts content. Knock yourself out." Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango? If one wants to evolve, there's nothing wrong with evolving into a new dance form. With the current debate, it's almost as if the nuevo dancers are ashamed of their developments. Why always be on the defensive? If you want to evolve, then cut the apron strings and evolve. Trini de Pittsburgh From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Jul 29 13:22:35 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <3232601ca106b$80900e30$116a010a@mail2world.com> Message-ID: <51434.13643.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Peter Esser wrote: > In your post you make a distinction b/w tango salon and > milonguero style. > > What is the difference? > > Peter Hi Peter, You should first know that there are some people who do not like to use the term "milonguero" to describe a particular style of dance. However, the term is in broad enough use and recognizable enough that I find their protests ineffectual. Dancers who choose to specialize in a particular style develop differently. You can look at this website for a description of different styles. http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html Although I just about always start my students off in milonguero, relatively few men stick with it enough to still feel milonguero. It's more common for my male students to open up a little to accommodate turns and such, so they develop a salon feel and they eventually add in nuevo movements. I think it's more difficult nowadays for people to understand the difference when they are given so many choices and teachers are trying to appeal to everyone. When I started, there was no choice in the States. There was only salon. When the other styles began to appear, it was much easier to distinguish them and appreciate their particular qualities. Hope this helps. Trini de Pittsburgh From alex at tangofuego.us Wed Jul 29 23:35:36 2009 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:35:36 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Message-ID: <00fc01ca10c6$d0940110$71bc0330$@us> Hola List! Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the apron strings"... It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the list goes on. Hell, there might even be some Texas Two-Step/Tango going on in this neck of the woods. Even the Ballroom world seems to be trying to lay claim to "Argentine Tango". In the media and the market place, those magical five letters T-A-N-G-O seem to sell products and services - through imagery and public perception. The mystery of tango in people's minds carries with it something very powerful. There's a website [http://www.yourtango.com] that has absolutely nothing to do with tango the dance, there's a trucking/transport company, there's a chewing gum, a soft drink, cookies, a car, software, there used to be an airline, and the list goes on and on. The bottom line is Tango, the word, sells. What would Nuevo be without its roots in traditional tango? A beautiful dance that someone would have to come up with a name for, I suppose. The Traditionalists/Purists also desperately want to be protective and need to be possessive of "their" tango. The early roots of tango, its history, culture, sensuality, beauty, difficulty, and mystery are not aspects to be taken lightly or disrespected, in the Purist's view. Tango the music. Tango the dance. Tango the culture. The mystery of tango. They are all one and the same. If I can speak for other Traditionalists, "Tango Tango" seems/wants/needs to be protected somehow, so people remember. So some will always remain true to the roots of Tango. So more will experience the feeling of the one, the true Tango. Now I'm preaching to the choir. Anyway, it just struck me a day or so ago - everyone seems to be wanting to lay claim to "El Tango". For what it's worth, an observation, but also not wanting to get mired in the Trad v. Nuevo debate... Also, a special thanks from me to Keith Elshaw for some great observations, as always, and especially for coining the term "Tango Tango", at least in my mind. Alex http://www.alextangofuego.blogspot.com From al at sgi.com Thu Jul 30 06:04:44 2009 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:04:44 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <00fc01ca10c6$d0940110$71bc0330$@us> References: <00fc01ca10c6$d0940110$71bc0330$@us> Message-ID: <4A71703C.2070608@sgi.com> Alex Long wrote: > Hola List! > > Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one > observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the apron > strings"... > > It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when > it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the > blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the > list goes on. You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you? From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 30 08:10:37 2009 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <297824.41713.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <297824.41713.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <112939.73413.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > >? Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need > to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango?? > I don't want to be cynical, but I'm guessing the answer is MONEY. Most nuevo professionals tour the world and their income is based on the worldwide craze for Tango, Any admission that it's not really tango and they'll lose their invitations to tango festivals and tango teachers will no longer invite them to teach workshops for their students. Jack From kareuh at aol.com Wed Jul 29 14:42:27 2009 From: kareuh at aol.com (Kara) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:42:27 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] help finding a video Message-ID: <8CBDE93748422C7-1728-E5F@webmail-dx10.sysops.aol.com> can anyone please direct me to a link for a film short that goes like this: woman in a grocery store is praticing her adornos while pushing the shopping cart; man in a grocery store is practicing his adornos while pushing the shopping cart; they glimpse each other; they end up dancing in the parking lot; thieves steal their cars. i saw it about 2 years ago and want to share it with a friend and can't find it anywhere. thank you, kara From tangopeter at gmx.de Thu Jul 30 09:14:47 2009 From: tangopeter at gmx.de (Peter Turowski) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:14:47 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] help finding a video References: <8CBDE93748422C7-1728-E5F@webmail-dx10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <492893B0CE3A49B296B81A79C1769EEB@PC> http://www.arzanohumorciak.com/corti_2006/perdizione.swf HTH Peter -- Peter Turowski www.tangopeter.de From syarzhuk at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 10:03:56 2009 From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:03:56 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] help finding a video In-Reply-To: <8CBDE93748422C7-1728-E5F@webmail-dx10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBDE93748422C7-1728-E5F@webmail-dx10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's called "Perdizione" Short version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-629zssP21Y Full version: http://www.arzanohumorciak.com/corti_2006/perdizione.html May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Kara wrote: > can anyone please direct me to a link for a film short that goes like > this: > > woman in a grocery store is praticing her adornos while pushing the > shopping cart; man in a grocery store is practicing his adornos while > pushing the shopping cart; they glimpse each other; they end up dancing > in the parking lot; thieves steal their cars. > > i saw it about 2 years ago and want to share it with a friend and can't > find it anywhere. > > thank you, > kara > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From newtonr at mscd.edu Thu Jul 30 12:19:40 2009 From: newtonr at mscd.edu (newtonr@mscd.edu) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:19:40 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] El Beso floor size? Message-ID: Would anyone know the dimensions (in feet ot meters) of the milonga floor at El Beso, Bs.As. (the dance area only)? How many couples can dance there comfortably? Does the music dictate, i.e., could more couples fit on the floor comfortably for a Canaro tango tanda, as opposed to a waltz or milonga. Or, does it really depend on the quality, experience and awareness of the dancers. Also, is this size typical (or average) of the many neighborhood clubs in Bs.As. Thanks, in advance, Richard From anton at alidas.com.au Thu Jul 30 23:29:14 2009 From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:29:14 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <4A71703C.2070608@sgi.com> References: <00fc01ca10c6$d0940110$71bc0330$@us> <4A71703C.2070608@sgi.com> Message-ID: <000601ca118f$1406b5a0$3c1420e0$@com.au> Alexis Cousein wrote: "You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you?" Why pigeon hole something Tango when it isn't? Why call anything anything? Why don't we call it the no-pigeon hole dance and it's practioners no-pigeon holers? Or is that pigeon-holing it? What a load of pigeon dung. Thank heavens that in the real world, most of us still call a spade a spade. Anton -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Alexis Cousein Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2009 8:05 PM Cc: tango-L at mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Alex Long wrote: > Hola List! > > Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one > observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the apron > strings"... > > It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when > it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the > blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the > list goes on. You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you? _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From milonguera at comcast.net Fri Jul 31 02:40:02 2009 From: milonguera at comcast.net (Cammie ) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:40:02 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Forever Tango DVD Reviews? Message-ID: Has anyone seen the new DVD of Forever Tango: Forever Tango with Luis Bravo Live from Teatro Coliseo Podesta? I have seen two previous productions on VHS, one filmed in Mexico and one in Japan, but the lighting quality was very poor (very dark) on one and poor on the other. Does anyone know if the DVD is better? Thanks, Cammie. From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jul 31 17:45:32 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <112939.73413.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <123337.43231.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Jack Dylan wrote: > > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > > > >? Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need > > to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango?? > > > > > I don't want to be cynical, but I'm guessing the answer is > MONEY. I suspect that it's not money. Still it really doesn't make any sense to insist that extreme nuevo is Argentine Tango when the purported intention is to let everyone do his/her artistic interpretation. I suspect that in their heart of hearts, extremists really do have this idea of what tango is/should be but they aren't willing to look at what they are doing and question whether it really fits this idea of tango. They have certainly not defined what bounds they wouldn't cross. I mean, if extremists insist that what they do is Argentine tango and not something else, then they are automatically putting bounds on themselves, right? Wouldn't that then go against the stated belief that, basically, "anything goes"? Can't have your cake and eat it, too. This thread reminds of when Reagan kept insisting that he never authorized trading arms for hostages. Eventually, he realized that though his intention was not to trade arms for hostages, that is essentially what happened. Trini de Pittsburgh From damian.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 17:51:16 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:51:16 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <123337.43231.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <112939.73413.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <123337.43231.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wonder why we hypothosis that "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they danced salon and then using it in different ways.... Devised, understood and taught by the TANGO MASTERS OF ARGENTINA? From c.roques at mchsi.com Fri Jul 31 18:20:57 2009 From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:20:57 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) Message-ID: <073120092220.14278.4A736E49000C780B000037C6223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com> < I wonder why we hypothosis that "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they danced salon and then using it in different ways.... Devised, understood and taught by the TANGO MASTERS OF ARGENTINA?> Actually that is not true and many of the older masters of salon don't like nuevo or think it borrows from the tradition at all. Most of the now-famous practitioners of nuevo had rejected it as their parent's dance and had listened and danced to mostly rock and roll. When they decided to capitalize on the new popularity of tango, they brought to the dance more of that aesthetic than the tango aesthetic. Nuevo dancers don't have the same erect posture as traditional dancers; they often watch each other's feet; they stand with their feet far apart; they don't collect their feet or their knees together when they walk or dance; they move their arms around and up and down; they turn their heads a lot, etc. There are in fact many things in nuevo that are not in traditional salon tango. Cheers, Charles From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Jul 31 19:12:37 2009 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts wrote: > I wonder why we hypothosis that > "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only > ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they > danced salon > and then using it in different ways.... I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango. I don't see that it can't be tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a type of tango. Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango? Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Chicho et al find their success outside of BsAs? Aside from Piazzolla (who was a New Yorker), isn't there quite a bit of influence from world music? Which again leads us to, why insist that Nuevo is Argentine? Why insist on keeping that tie? Why do nuevo extremists continue to position themselves in a defensive position? Why not really take Nuevo into a more positive direction? Why don't extreme nuevo-ists really just give themselves more freedom if that is what they want? Incorporate those rumba moves if you want without having to defend doing so. In this digital age, gung-ho nuevo dancers could just set up their own listserv (like Tango-L) and exchange ideas/videos. They don't need the blessing of the "fathers of nuevo". Can't be that hard to recruit people who attend the nuevo festivals. I also want to be clear about something. I really like Sebastian and Mariana as teachers and dancers. They are lovely people. I really enjoyed their classes in Baltimore a few years ago, and I wish I could go again this year. I had planned to to, but I don't think we can. I wish I could be as creative as those two. But it doesn't make sense to me that such talent would need to limit itself to "Argentine Tango". Why not "World Tango"? Trini de Pittsburgh From damian.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 21:42:08 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:42:08 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <073120092220.14278.4A736E49000C780B000037C6223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com> References: <073120092220.14278.4A736E49000C780B000037C6223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com> Message-ID: Of course you are correct..... And, thanks for this statement - "there are many things in nuevo that are not in traditional..." (means new) I spose that's why it's new... The major teachers of the "Nuevo" were originally salon maestros. Gustavo and Olga.... As for different postures, well, salon/milonguero is just as varied and diversified as any 'nuevo' dancer... Often, it is cruel and inconsiderate of the lady and her position... But if you are not a woman being crushed having your arm contorted and twisted, then you probably don't care or know. Many of the older generation don't like the internet or email either, but I guess, you don't mind it... you are on this list..... 2009/7/31 : > < ?I wonder why we hypothosis that "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only > ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they danced salon > and then using it in different ways.... > > Devised, understood and taught by the TANGO MASTERS OF ARGENTINA?> > > Actually that is not true and many of the older masters of salon don't like nuevo or think it borrows from the tradition at all. Most of the now-famous practitioners of nuevo had rejected it as their parent's dance and had listened and danced to mostly rock and roll. When they decided to capitalize on the new popularity of tango, they brought to the dance more of that aesthetic than the tango aesthetic. ? Nuevo dancers don't have the same erect posture as traditional dancers; they often watch each other's feet; they stand with their feet far apart; they don't collect their feet or their knees together when they walk or dance; they move their arms around and up and down; they turn their heads a lot, etc. ?There are in fact many things in nuevo that are not in traditional salon tango. > > Cheers, > Charles > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From damian.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 21:44:41 2009 From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:44:41 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? In-Reply-To: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For me, quite simply because it's not. It's Argentine. Just the updates to the style are 'new'... 2009/7/31 Trini y Sean (PATangoS) : > > > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts wrote: > >> I wonder why we hypothosis that >> "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only >> ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they >> danced salon >> and then using it in different ways.... > > > I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango. ?I don't see that it can't be tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a type of tango. ?Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango? > > Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Chicho et al find their success outside of BsAs? ?Aside from Piazzolla (who was a New Yorker), isn't there quite a bit of influence from world music? ?Which again leads us to, why insist that Nuevo is Argentine? ?Why insist on keeping that tie? ?Why do nuevo extremists continue to position themselves in a defensive position? ?Why not really take Nuevo into a more positive direction? ?Why don't extreme nuevo-ists really just give themselves more freedom if that is what they want? ?Incorporate those rumba moves if you want without having to defend doing so. > > In this digital age, gung-ho nuevo dancers could just set up their own listserv (like Tango-L) and exchange ideas/videos. ?They don't need the blessing of the "fathers of nuevo". ?Can't be that hard to recruit people who attend the nuevo festivals. > > I also want to be clear about something. ?I really like Sebastian and Mariana as teachers and dancers. ?They are lovely people. ?I really enjoyed their classes in Baltimore a few years ago, and I wish I could go again this year. ?I had planned to to, but I don't think we can. ?I wish I could be as creative as those two. ?But it doesn't make sense to me that such talent would need to limit itself to "Argentine Tango". ?Why not "World Tango"? > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l >