From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au  Tue Feb  3 06:40:48 2009
From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:40:48 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap:  Tango-L still alive?
Message-ID: <49882D40.1080301@optusnet.com.au>

Hmm - I see lots of tango-A posts but almost nothing for tango-L. Is it 
just deathly quiet or has something gone pear-shaped?

cheers
rde


From brick at fastpack.com  Tue Feb  3 12:37:38 2009
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:37:38 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap: Tango-L still alive?
Message-ID: <ca2c2380902030937w16b20f8tba5f0f06d2de7b21@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:40:48 +1100
> From: Roger Edgecombe <edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap:  Tango-L still alive?
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
>
> Hmm - I see lots of tango-A posts but almost nothing for tango-L. Is it
> just deathly quiet or has something gone pear-shaped?

I'm sure it is just a normal reaction to all the warm supportive
discussion that posters here on Tango-L have learned they get in reply
to their messages..

Anyone going to the Portland Tango Festival next week?

From tangowien at googlemail.com  Mon Feb  2 18:32:56 2009
From: tangowien at googlemail.com (Klaus Radek)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:32:56 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango
Message-ID: <22a636ff0902021532t5a6c12fbp52442b8b29cdac54@mail.gmail.com>

Over recent time I have watched Mario search to find dancers, and
dances, that move him - though often I  do find myself not in
agreement with his choice. Then my sister pointed out this guy on
youtube to me (see links under) She says she luckily danced with him
in Poland once. I do agree with her - smooth, musically inventing,
passionate and close connected. Maybe one day I can dance so smooth ..
practice, practice?

Klaus (Wien)

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMpBBqcCB8&feature=related
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2NgcJxfmdhk&feature=related
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=65U24C-On08
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Iq4jy5NQA
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TYObShuzZ-4
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=l2mDI_o3Bc4

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 13:06:57 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:06:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango
In-Reply-To: <22a636ff0902021532t5a6c12fbp52442b8b29cdac54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <142877.89775.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 6:32 PM
> Over recent time I have watched Mario search to find
> dancers, and dances, that move him - though often I  do find myself not
> in agreement with his choice. 

Sometimes, Klaus, it may not be the whole but the part that one can appreciate in a dancer.  There are times when I like one aspect of a dancer but I might be so-so on the overall package.  Eventually, each dancer brings his/her own individual oomph to the dance and that oomph varies from person to person.  When studying with someone, I prefer to pick what interests me about that person the most and I focus on learning that.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Wed Feb  4 15:47:24 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:47:24 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango= foxtrot,  Klaus
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1133.1233768084.21443.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1133.1233768084.21443.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD875@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Klaus, I think you should aim higher than the leader in the clips you
chose. 
Musical? Yes.
Smooth? Absolutely.  
Connected? ...  maybe, but he might as well have been dancing foxtrot.
His right palm was on the followers left rib in most of the sequences I
viewed, keeping a four-square ballroom type frame.  To me, this is not
tango, it is ballroom, or foxtrot. Don't misunderstand me, I love nuevo
and modern tango styling, but I call this foxtrot tango.   Tango has an
asymmetrical embrace, closer on the right side.  Most of the time he
kept a parallel, symmetrical embrace, and occasionally came in closer on
his right side for certain moves. Tango is the opposite. If you do not
need to open the embrace for a move, your default should be an
asymmetrical embrace, more closed on the leaders right side, closer to
her left side, and more open on the leaders left side.  When you need to
vary it when the move calls for it, open the embrace more to allow for
turns or larger moves.   This gives a more passionate appearance to the
dance, as if the man wants to always return to the woman.  
Here is an example of what I am talking about, of an artist who dances
in a modern style, yet also retains the tango feel, embrace, and passion
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmNhQpex8M


From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 16:59:16 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:59:16 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Thoughts?
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS5318B132AD49C0B7CFEDAAEC30@phx.gbl>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEmZSBr15lA




From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 17:49:00 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:49:00 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Thoughts
Message-ID: <BAY105-W26AA88BA525EA0CC67EFC197C30@phx.gbl>


When I see somebody like Fabrizio Forti dancing I think...
 
He is dancing "traditional tango" The way we all danced in my neighborhood.  Long steps, an elastic embrace, in "V", close for walking and with more opening to execute certain figures. Stepping either toe first (most people) or heel first (many).
 
Utilizing all the elements of tango, embellishments, some colgadas, some soltadas with change of embrace, some volcadas, etc.
 
I think "What a beautiful dance our tango is".
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
PS. This style is not for crowded dance floors.
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 21:29:01 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:29:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango= foxtrot,  Klaus
References: <mailman.1133.1233768084.21443.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD875@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <662550.2069.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

C'mon, Martin, you've gone from a very ordinary, intermediate?nobody, 
like many of us I suspect, to one of the world's greatest exponents of 
Tango. Not really a fair comparison.

But, you're right, Klaus should be aiming a lot, lot?higher.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: "Nussbaum, Martin" mnussbau at law.nyc.gov

> Here is an example of what I am talking about, of an artist who dances
> in a modern style, yet also retains the tango feel, embrace, and passion
> : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmNhQpex8M
> 



      



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Feb  5 11:47:32 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:47:32 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap:  Tango-L still alive?
Message-ID: <498B1824.1090802@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Roger Edgecombe <edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au> says:

> Hmm - I see lots of tango-A posts but almost nothing for tango-L

Probably just reflecting what is increasingly becoming the reality of 
Tango in Buenos Aires, where commercialism in Tango is alive and well, 
while the artistic, social and cultural elements of the Tango of Buenos 
Aires are becoming increasingly harder to find even for the cognoscenti.

Less ironically, however: I have suggested to those who in the past may 
have complained out the lack of quality in some of the posts that they 
post what they consider a high-quality post themselves to "dilute away" 
the flotsam; similarly, I would suggest to those who miss their daily 
dose of Tango-L to post something themselves. Perhaps even something 
provocative ...

Shahrukh

P.S. And sometimes, "silence is golden," and that's fine too.


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:04:43 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:04:43 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango= foxtrot, Klaus
Message-ID: <BLU119-W3546AE93E4626DFE7D6DF891C00@phx.gbl>


Martin Nussbaum wrote:

>> Klaus, I think you should aim higher than the leader in the clips you chose.
>> Musical? Yes.
>> Smooth? Absolutely.  
>> Connected? ...  maybe, but he might as well have been dancing foxtrot.

For whatever it is worth, I believe that this dancer placed 3rd in the 2007 Australian Stage 
Tango Competition.  Clearly, there are some who do like this style.  But, here I have 
to agree with Martin that, for me also, this doesn't have the feel of tango.

There are a fair number of modern/nuevo tango instructors I have seen who 
dance similarly.  Very smooth, good musicality, clear lead, cool stuff, but a very boxy 
disconnected look. I don't see the feeling I expect from tango.  From such I too try to learn the 
parts that I do like.  But I want my dance to look more like I am feeling the music at my core.


OTOH, I probably look like the stiff, middle aged, uptight white guy that I am and would 
do well to convey half the feeling that this dancer does.

Oh well

David
 
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From tempehuck at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 16:51:38 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:51:38 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] tap tap ..testing .. tap tap: Tango-L still alive?
In-Reply-To: <498B1824.1090802@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <498B1824.1090802@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370902051351v28cb11fcgdd8b9dbac4fab3fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Shahrukh Merchant
<shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:
>
> Less ironically, however: I have suggested to those who in the past may
> have complained out the lack of quality in some of the posts that they
> post what they consider a high-quality post themselves to "dilute away"
> the flotsam; similarly, I would suggest to those who miss their daily
> dose of Tango-L to post something themselves. Perhaps even something
> provocative ...

     Alas, I fear most of the more creative and provocative people
whose postings I for one have enjoyed reading through the years have
been driven away because they're too afraid of chastisement and
repeatedly getting busted back to newbie buck private (ie., having to
submit all their posts for delayed approval by the moderator, which
effectively makes Tango-L useless to them as a viable discussion
medium).

     It is ironic to hear so many of those delicate souls who clamored
for such strict moderation to now complain about being bored with
Tango-L, and it is also ironic to notice that so many of the
complainers who claimed they were being stifled by "the Tango-L
critics" have failed to bloom into the wonderfully interesting posters
they promised they'd be "if only Tango-L were more civilized."

      I also keep waiting for all those hundreds of people to show up
who we were told were reading Tango-L but not posting, lurking out of
fear because Tango-L was "too mean."  I keep waiting, but all I hear
is:

                         *crickets*

Huck

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Feb  5 18:02:47 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 23:02:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Pity the poor Milonguru
Message-ID: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>

A while back I chatted with a frequent partner at a milonga.  She had 
just gotten back from her second trip to Buenos Aires and she was 
disillusioned.  "Milongueros are just fat little old greasy men who 
want to grab my ass!"

Being Very Very Wise I refrained from saying I thought her ass was a 
fine example of natural art and that I would love to grab it too.  Come 
to think of it, the rest of her is quite lovely.  Maybe that was the 
source of her disillusion.  I've heard that milongueros go from senior 
statesmen to old goats very fast in the presence of a beautiful woman.  
After all, they're only human.

The "only human" theme came up again just a couple of weeks ago on the 
phone while talking to an occasional tango partner.  She had spent the 
entire summer in Buenos Aires and thought that a great time to go 
there.  It is their winter, but BsAs winters are not unpleasant, 
especially when you spend a lot of time in milongas which never use air 
conditioning.

"After a few weeks they got to know me and I started getting to dance 
with dancers who friends there told me were some of the top 
milongueros," she said or something close to that.  "Their dancing was 
so smooth and their leads so great I didn't have to worry about getting 
bumped or guessing what he wanted me to do and they really knew the 
music."

But eventually, she said, it got boring.  They were a little too good, 
a statement that puzzled me and does still.  When I tried to get some 
details that would clear up the issue she could not put her finger on 
the problem beyond saying she expected more, somehow, from milongueros.

"Were they just a bunch of old guys?" I asked.  No, a few of them were 
younger, a couple really good looking, maybe professional dancers.

Could it be that we non-Argentines have so exalted the abilities of 
milongurus of both sexes that anything short of magical abilities 
will disappoint us?


Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com - Immortal Shapechanger series web site
short story "The Forest Demon" added



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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 18:49:18 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 23:49:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Pity the poor Milonguru
In-Reply-To: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W4592FCFD30E0D9551B67E6A9C00@phx.gbl>


My guess is that the skill level of US dancers has just improved so much over the last few years of tango obsession that the bar is raised a bit. At least I'd like to think that's the case.

     J



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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 19:23:50 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:23:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Pity the poor Milonguru
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W4592FCFD30E0D9551B67E6A9C00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <363743.51686.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What you need to remember, too, is that all those
milongueros are getting older every day.  I notice
that the  guys who were such dreamy dancers eight
years ago have deteriorated in balance, hearing,
eyesight and movement of joints.  And yes, for sure,
as we dance with better trained dancers at various
festivals, we come to expect better dancing even from
The Legends.  I consistently get better dances at
major US Festivals than I do in my annual visits to
BsAs.  And the guys in the US are not hustling lessons
or taxi dancer services as too many of the milongueros
are doing these days.


--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> My guess is that the skill level of US dancers has
> just improved so much over the last few years of
> tango obsession that the bar is raised a bit. At
> least I'd like to think that's the case.
> 
>      J
> 
> 
> 
>
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> Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to
> connect. 
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 



      

From donald.sinclair at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 05:25:45 2009
From: donald.sinclair at gmail.com (Donald Sinclair)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:25:45 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Pity the poor Milonguru
In-Reply-To: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <69c128920902060225t4063822dkc3bfcce323c6a655@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:02 PM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
>
> But eventually, she said, it got boring.  They were a little too good,
> a statement that puzzled me and does still.  When I tried to get some
> details that would clear up the issue she could not put her finger on
> the problem beyond saying she expected more, somehow, from milongueros.

My guess:
They are giving her exactly what they think she wants - so "her body
can follow, and her spirit can dance".
If she wants more (playfulness? fire?) out of them, she has to express that.
A good dancer will pick up on what their partner shows, and reflect
it, amplified, with their own interpretation,
in a virtuous circle.
Perhaps she has forgotten that women rule the world (so they get to
follow - a much more immersive experience), and part of being a
follower is building the leaders up towards what you want them to be.

Donald

From alex at tangofuego.us  Fri Feb  6 09:33:59 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:33:59 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango :: Two tone wingtips do not a leader make
Message-ID: <E1LVRmN-0007ct-NK@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Klaus (Wien) wrote: [as "Smooth Tango"] 

.Over recent time I have watched Mario search to find dancers, and
.dances, that move him - though often I do find myself not in
.agreement with his choice. Then my sister pointed out this guy on
.youtube to me (see links under) She says she luckily danced with him
.in Poland once. I do agree with her - smooth, musically inventing,
.passionate and close connected. Maybe one day I can dance so smooth ..
.practice, practice?


I, too, was never impressed with anything from Mario, but I would also have
to say I was not impressed with the dancing of this gentleman (In Klaus'
videos). I didn't see anything "smooth, musically inventive, passionate, and
close connected". I didn't see anything that I would "admire" or "aspire to"
in his dancing.

But then again, he is dancing open embrace/salon style, and only momentarily
coming into close embrace from the few seconds of each video I watched. I
aspire to close embrace, milonguero style. If Klaus' example leader is
"close connected", then what I aspire to is dancing inside of each other's
souls.

I'm just offering a differing/dissenting opinion - It's interesting how some
can see a dancer as someone they want to emulate, and others, like me, as
seeing the same dancer as 'good, but not great'. Perhaps this is natural in
the evolution of each individual's tango path.

The following video, of Osvaldo Zotto y Lorena Ermocida (in Confiteria
Ideal) to me, *is* "smooth, musically inventive, passionate, and close
connected" :: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9mGaSPm97A although it's
obviously not milonguero style. Ricardo Vidort would fall into that
category.

There are lots of other examples (of smooth tango) out there as well.

Alex
www.alextangofuego.blogspot.com



From martin at waxman.net  Fri Feb  6 09:37:09 2009
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:37:09 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Explaining the feeling of community in Argentine Tango?
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090206092637.01b5a200@waxman.net>

Are we all together on this?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126945.300-how-to-control-a-herd-of-humans.html

Marty


From alex at tangofuego.us  Fri Feb  6 11:00:48 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:00:48 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango :: Two tone wingtips do not a leader make
In-Reply-To: <227046318.20090206103721@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <E1LVT8L-0000EA-Mq@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hola Richard,

No I didn't write that document...will have to read it later...running out
the door...

That may be my bad as far as equating salon to open and milonguero to
close... that's what I've been taught by the multitude of teachers I've
studied with...and gleaned from the research I've done...

That salon and close embrace are danced to different tempos - this is the
first time I have ever heard this...

A better way to say it may be that close embrace almost never compromises
the embrace...and salon almost always compromises the embrace...am I wrong
about this?

I think part of the difficulty in communicating about tango is that we all
have different perceptions and understandings about the various terminology
and pedagogy....

I've been dancing for 4-1/2 years, but still consider myself a
beginner...and will for another 8 years or so... 10,000 hours or 12 years,
whichever comes first, seems to be the cusp...

Take care,

Alex
www.alextangofuego.blogspot.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 9:37 AM
To: Alex
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango :: Two tone wingtips do not a leader
make

Friday, February 6, 2009, 9:33:59 AM, you wrote:

A> But then again, he is dancing open embrace/salon style, and only
momentarily
A> coming into close embrace from the few seconds of each video I watched. I
A> aspire to close embrace, milonguero style.

Alex -

One of the things that continues to astonish me is that many beginning
dancers -- and for all I know many experienced dancers -- think that
if you are holding your partner close to you, then you are dancing
close embrace. In fact, in salon tango you are pressed against your
partner until you need to do a figure (front ochos spring to mind)
where the embrace needs to breathe. Close embrace itself doesn't open
up, uses a subset of the figures of salon tango, and is danced at a
slightly different tempo than salon tango.

Regards/Richard

PS - I have attached the latest version of a document I received.
Which, for all I know, you wrote.



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 11:13:11 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 16:13:11 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W1028B97274CAC0172982E497C10@phx.gbl>


    Osvaldo Zotto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9mGaSPm97A
 
    Damian
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2NgcJxfmdhk&feature=related
 
 
Here we have two couples dancing tango.  Osvaldo Zotto one of the best dancers of traditional tango (IMO).
 
Perfect posture, V embrace open or closed as needed, stepping with toes first, long steps. Perfect tecnique, use of figures, mixed with walks, and pauses; as well as the use of variation in dynamics, according to the music.

Feeling, connection and passion are present.  .
 
Gives to the figures the same importance as to the walks
 
Damian has mostly an open embrace, perhaps to open, good posture, has good knowledge of tango choreography, using multiple elements, sucha as boleos, amagues, cuchillas, etc. 
 
He obviously gives more importance to the figures than to the walks (that are absent), there is no feeling, no passion, no pauses,
 
An example of tango choreography used by somebody that has no feeling for the authentic Argentine tango music, somebody that 
probably dances tango to "non-tango music".   The result is a tango that looks like a fox-trot.
 
Having said that, I must accept that Damian's dancing is esthetically beautiful as well, but different from that of Osvaldo.
He is technically a good dancer and probably a teacher as well.  He shows better feeling and connection when dancing to non-tango music.
 
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMpBBqcCB8&feature=related
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
 

 
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 16:07:42 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:07:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Pity the poor Milonguru
References: <20090205.150247.6269.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <701323.56999.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I was sitting in Nino Bien the other night, opposite my partner as we 
sipped our Chandon, probaby looking like a couple of newbie tourists. 
I've been before but not for a couple of years. Anyway, an?old guy walked 
behind my partner, put his hand on one of her bare shoulders and stroked 
her neck as his hand passed to her other shoulder. He smiled as he walked 
on. I was also smiling as?I asked who he was, assuming?she knew him. 
She had no idea who he was. Is this 'normal' behaviour?in Buenos Aires? 
I've been in places where it's likely to result in?trouble, to put it mildly.

Jack



> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> A while back I chatted with a frequent partner at a milonga..? She had 
> just gotten back from her second trip to Buenos Aires and she was 
> disillusioned.? "Milongueros are just fat little old greasy men who 
> want to grab my ass!"
> 
> Being Very Very Wise I refrained from saying I thought her ass was a 
> fine example of natural art and that I would love to grab it too.? Come 
> to think of it, the rest of her is quite lovely.? Maybe that was the 
> source of her disillusion.? I've heard that milongueros go from senior 
> statesmen to old goats very fast in the presence of a beautiful woman.? 
> After all, they're only human.
> 



      



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sat Feb  7 13:52:06 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 16:52:06 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Pity_the_poor_Milonguru/Ni=F1o_Bien?=
Message-ID: <498DD856.50505@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was sitting in Nino Bien the other night, opposite my partner as we 
> sipped our Chandon, probaby looking like a couple of newbie tourists.

Hey, next time stop by and say hello :-) (I was there too, after several 
months). But skip the overpriced Chandon--Nieto Senetiner is much better.

A word on Ni?o Bien: It has changed a lot in its "aura," as has most of 
the other milongas that now have a high tourist attendance (I would 
estimate over 50% last Thursday). However, within the set of milongas 
popular with tourists, it's still a personal favourite since:

- Their prices have not risen unreasonably. And with the apparently 
still little-known and not advertised policy that the admission ticket 
is valid for a free water or soft drink (or a glass of house wine or 
champagne too, I believe), it's almost a bargain.

- They still help you find a seat and seat you (though this breaks down 
when it is really full--they'll still admit you without saying there is 
no space and then ...???).

- Shows are rare. (This is a good thing as far as I'm concerned--90% of 
such shows I find boring and emotionless, though the vast majority of 
the crowd, including the Argentines, seem to love them.)

- I usually run into people I know even though I've ceased to be an habitu?.

> an old guy walked 
> behind my partner, put his hand on one of her bare shoulders and stroked 
> her neck as his hand passed to her other shoulder.  ...
> She had no idea who he was. Is this 'normal' behaviour in Buenos Aires? 
> I've been in places where it's likely to result in trouble, to put it mildly.

No, it's not normal, nor considered appropriate, but also not likely to 
result in "trouble to put it mildly" for the perpetrator. Between Latin 
machismo, generally more comfort with physical contact, the fact that it 
was at a milonga and could be passed off as a perhaps-too-affectionate 
invitation to dance, etc., a frown and/or "That was weird," perhaps a 
dirty look at the old guy in question, is about the level of objection 
one is likely to see to that. However, I don't really see this happening 
all that often off the dance floor (from reports I hear, the dirty old 
men seem to wait until they have their victims firmly in their clutches 
ON the dance floor...).

Shahrukh

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 20:12:33 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:12:33 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango - Smooth dancing...
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902071712i34299d68qe3d53fea6db03c30@mail.gmail.com>

G'day all from Australia.  Hope you are all well.

It was most complimentary to even find that I was the centre of any
discussion where no one wanted to hurt me, fire me or shoot me :-),
but a discussion on Tango and dancing tango.

Many, in fact all of us have our own perspectives on what is and what
is not tango.  I would never try to tell you what tango should be to
any of you.  But I would like to make some comments.

The video's that were picked were all very very social dancing videos
and the only one really worth watching of those (even though they are
cute...) was the last one posted by Sergio
(http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/2009-February/009644.html)

The other videos were all for the person that I was dancing with for
various reasons... certainly not for my dancing, but for theirs.
Sometimes so family overseas could see that they were alive and well
and others to show family that they actually do dance.. .mostly for
them though.
Most of those were so the person that I was dancing with could see
their own dancing and what they were doing...
Most of them were not even meant to be musical, but were for fault
correction and self evaluation that most of my students go through.
I am not in a close embrace most of the time as I am actually teaching
them how to be on their own axis to improve their dancing....not to
mention a simple fact like - the height difference makes it very
difficult to dance close embrace or salon (yes, there is a difference)
with them as opposed to with Oliwia (above video) or say someone like
Michelle Erdemsel whom I love dancing with or Mariana Dragone whom I
also love dancing with.
Also very interesting that you mention Fabrizio (who by the way, loves
my dancing), he is the most influential teacher (and very close
friend) I have had and I have spent a lot of time with Herrerra,
Chicho, Naviera, Torreli, Farfaro and quite a few others.

Like another post mentions, comparing me to Zotto - LOL!  That is both
incredibly fantastic and incredibly silly - here is the quote, "a very
ordinary, intermediate nobody, like many of us I suspect, to one of
the world's greatest exponents of Tango. Not really a fair
comparison:".  Well, as for a nobody, well I have taught in Europe,
every city in Australia ('cept Perth), and Buenos Aires, so whilst I'm
a 'nobody', I have certainly accomplished more than most...

I never want to dance like Zotto - I personally hate toe steppers as
that is a ballet influence and a stage tango technique - and I am very
good friends with many many stage dancers and champions.  I want to
dance like...... me.  I really would encourage you to look at some of
my other videos if you want to compare me to Zotto, maybe ones say
where I am actually either doing a performance, or dancing with a
person that I both know, and am very comfortable dancing with because
I can assure you that if I was video'd dancing with say, Cecilia
Gonzalez, Mariana Dragone, Eugenia Parrilla, Alexandra Hubert or one
of the many many other incredibly famous dancers, then your
observations would be different again... One in particular is Edith
Paez, one of the judges for the World Tango Championships, who
considers me to be one of her favourite dancers ever - she also dance
for 20 years on stage from the age of 16 with the likes of Miguel
Zotto and Roberto Herrerra.  Perspective... different perspectives.

IN perspective, whom you dance with also either limits or enhances
what you are able to do and let's face it, you don't want to connect
with everyone, in fact, you can't.  We are human after all.  Some
people we just won't, don't or can't connect with.

So, I guess I'm saying, really unless you have danced with me and I'm
not teaching you, then evaluating my dance or anyone elses especially
labelled "social" may not be either that accurate, or fair.

Hope to see all of your dancing on youtube too ;-)

Keep happy in Tango
Damian

From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  7 21:41:23 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 13:41:23 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango - Smooth dancing...
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902071712i34299d68qe3d53fea6db03c30@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb8208d0902071712i34299d68qe3d53fea6db03c30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS14B876EF9758C7E27FC2BAEBF0@phx.gbl>

Thanks Damian.

To make it easy, some other videos of Damian are at:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=PlatypusReign&view=videos

Cheers

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 12:12 PM
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango - Smooth dancing...

> G'day all from Australia.  Hope you are all well.
> 
> It was most complimentary to even find that I was the centre of any
> discussion where no one wanted to hurt me, fire me or shoot me :-),
> but a discussion on Tango and dancing tango.
> 
> Many, in fact all of us have our own perspectives on what is and what
> is not tango.  I would never try to tell you what tango should be to
> any of you.  But I would like to make some comments.
> 
> The video's that were picked were all very very social dancing videos
> and the only one really worth watching of those (even though they are
> cute...) was the last one posted by Sergio
> (http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/2009-February/009644.html)
> 
> The other videos were all for the person that I was dancing with for
> various reasons... certainly not for my dancing, but for theirs.
> Sometimes so family overseas could see that they were alive and well
> and others to show family that they actually do dance.. .mostly for
> them though.
> Most of those were so the person that I was dancing with could see
> their own dancing and what they were doing...
> Most of them were not even meant to be musical, but were for fault
> correction and self evaluation that most of my students go through.
> I am not in a close embrace most of the time as I am actually teaching
> them how to be on their own axis to improve their dancing....not to
> mention a simple fact like - the height difference makes it very
> difficult to dance close embrace or salon (yes, there is a difference)
> with them as opposed to with Oliwia (above video) or say someone like
> Michelle Erdemsel whom I love dancing with or Mariana Dragone whom I
> also love dancing with.
> Also very interesting that you mention Fabrizio (who by the way, loves
> my dancing), he is the most influential teacher (and very close
> friend) I have had and I have spent a lot of time with Herrerra,
> Chicho, Naviera, Torreli, Farfaro and quite a few others.
> 
> Like another post mentions, comparing me to Zotto - LOL!  That is both
> incredibly fantastic and incredibly silly - here is the quote, "a very
> ordinary, intermediate nobody, like many of us I suspect, to one of
> the world's greatest exponents of Tango. Not really a fair
> comparison:".  Well, as for a nobody, well I have taught in Europe,
> every city in Australia ('cept Perth), and Buenos Aires, so whilst I'm
> a 'nobody', I have certainly accomplished more than most...
> 
> I never want to dance like Zotto - I personally hate toe steppers as
> that is a ballet influence and a stage tango technique - and I am very
> good friends with many many stage dancers and champions.  I want to
> dance like...... me.  I really would encourage you to look at some of
> my other videos if you want to compare me to Zotto, maybe ones say
> where I am actually either doing a performance, or dancing with a
> person that I both know, and am very comfortable dancing with because
> I can assure you that if I was video'd dancing with say, Cecilia
> Gonzalez, Mariana Dragone, Eugenia Parrilla, Alexandra Hubert or one
> of the many many other incredibly famous dancers, then your
> observations would be different again... One in particular is Edith
> Paez, one of the judges for the World Tango Championships, who
> considers me to be one of her favourite dancers ever - she also dance
> for 20 years on stage from the age of 16 with the likes of Miguel
> Zotto and Roberto Herrerra.  Perspective... different perspectives.
> 
> IN perspective, whom you dance with also either limits or enhances
> what you are able to do and let's face it, you don't want to connect
> with everyone, in fact, you can't.  We are human after all.  Some
> people we just won't, don't or can't connect with.
> 
> So, I guess I'm saying, really unless you have danced with me and I'm
> not teaching you, then evaluating my dance or anyone elses especially
> labelled "social" may not be either that accurate, or fair.
> 
> Hope to see all of your dancing on youtube too ;-)
> 
> Keep happy in Tango
> Damian
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

From tango22 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 23:31:46 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 14:31:46 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango :: Two tone wingtips do not a leader make
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1087.1233941059.27824.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1087.1233941059.27824.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DC39FFA3-0BEF-4E67-8076-47551AD6048B@gmail.com>

Richard,
Since when can't you execute a front ocho in a tango embrace?  I agree  
that open-embrace adopts an expanded set of (usually rote-learned)  
figures comprising a number of steps, mostly adaptations of  
performance or demonstration (no judgement intended here).  Close- 
embrace is not based on figures at all, but technique, from which  
figures are created as you dance, responding to the music, your  
partner and the other dancers; perhaps never to be repeated.  Would  
you kindly explain what you mean by "dancing to a different tempo".  I  
would have thought that the music always dictates the tempo / rhythm /  
feel of every dance.
John


On 07/02/2009, at 3:24 AM, tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote:

> From: Richard
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 9:37 AM
> ....... In fact, in salon tango you are pressed against your
> partner until you need to do a figure (front ochos spring to mind)
> where the embrace needs to breathe. Close embrace itself doesn't  
> open up, uses a subset of the figures of salon tango, and is danced  
> at a slightly different tempo than salon tango.


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 07:51:19 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:51:19 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango - feeling - style
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5284751E4C23376150AD3D97BF0@phx.gbl>



Damian,
 
             Tank you very much for your gracious note.
 
My intention was not to criticize your dancing at all. I thought that the use of those videos, already presented and discussed by other members of the list, was a good oportunity to show what '"feeling" in Argentine Tango is.
 
You are entitled (as you explain) to your own style.
 
The only purpose of comparing those two videos was to discuss "feeling" and connection.
 
It certainly would be very unfair otherwise, to compare somebody in an exhibition situation with somebody in a teaching situation.
Also it is obvious that you and Osvaldo dance different tango styles : zotto dances "Traditional Tango" and you have a lot of influence from "Nuevo tango".
 
IMO you already dance better than most people I know, please continue the good work.
 
Going back to you style, out of all the instructors you mentioned, perhaps Chicho had the most influence.
 
As to feeling, you frequently do show a special feeling and connection at your exhibitions.
 
Good luck, I hope to meet you sometime,
 
Sergio
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VyFqQkznk&feature=channel_page Damian
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8TKp4ech7Y  chicho frumboli
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGZv6rSRvTo&feature=PlayList&p=642FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=5 chicho close embrce
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 11:27:22 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 03:27:22 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango - feeling - style
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902080827k24df3605md8bf7c1c259fd292@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Sergio ;-)

Nice that you say I dance like Chicho.  He definitely has had the most
influence in his tempo, timing and footwork.  :-)   I had students
come back from BA recently who saw him dance, but did not know who he
was.  Then they had enough naivety to say, "that dude dances like
Damian" when it is 100% the other way, but it was a great compliment
for me anyway :-)  Chicho laughed when I told him ;-)

The video that you picked out, our most recent was after Julz and I
had not danced together for about 6 months.  I now live 2 hours flight
away from her, so we were very very rusty - I still prefer an older
one to Malena (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtC274rrGSk) when we had
had more time dancing together regularly.. once every 6 months is not
enough at the moment...

"I agree
that open-embrace adopts an expanded set of (usually rote-learned)
figures comprising a number of steps, mostly adaptations of
performance or demonstration (no judgement intended here)"

I would disagree with this.  Open, learned correctly is the same as
closed, but open.... sorry but for me, it's that simple.  Both have
their own axis and both work with chest leads....

Damian

From keith at totango.net  Sun Feb  8 17:46:03 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 17:46:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Change
Message-ID: <60251.65.93.194.235.1234133163.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>


What times we live in, eh?

Best to have seat-belts fastened.

I've only been around tango for 20 years, so I'm a newbie. But my studies
and sense tell me that more has been changing in the last 15 years than
had been happening during the previous 4 decades.

We had the resurgence of tango which followed Tango Argentino in the
latter-80's.

Then we had the development which came from people going to Argentina
starting in the mid-90's and finding out it was a much different thing
than what they had been taught.

As well, I think a wonderful development coming out of the work of don
Emilio Balcarces's Escuela De Tango and Roberto Alvarez's Color Tango.
There were great musicians doing good things, but these two had great
influence which showed dancers tango music was a living thing.

Then the Gustavo/Fabian/Pablo/Chicho re-examination of movement, etc. And
the resultant nuevo strain which was propelled by the musicians going for
that, like Gotan (one can't deny their enormous success).

All these people were pioneers in their way.

Dancer/teachers grew in fame and travelled spreading knowledge.

Festivals came and grew.

Someone we know pushed for better quality versions of the great old
recordings and that has been going in the right direction.

A lot in a short time, relatively-speaking.

>From the death of Di Sarli in '59 to Tango Argentino, the story was
basically Copes, Piazzolla (always the infidel), Pugliese. And Tango por
export. 1, 2, 3, 4.

5, 6, 7, 8.

Well - everything those greats did tirelessly for decades - and everything
tango produced before that for decades - is now delicious fruit produced
hanging heavily on the vine.

As in every facet of our lives, the pace of change now is disruptive and
disconcerting.

Calling for calm. Like when we dance.

Change is life -  and tango is the dance which incorporated life and
change better than any other.

If things change, tango isn't going to die. It's success was
pre-programmed into it.

Just remember the narrow-minded people who were incensed when that
"stupid" bandoneon player started hanging around trying to play tango like
he belonged.

:-)




From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Feb  8 21:10:42 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:10:42 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Transitions from open/close embrance (was Smooth Tango ::
 Two tone wingtips do not a leader make)
Message-ID: <498F90A2.2070305@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Tango22 <tango22 at gmail.com> says:

> Since when can't you execute a front ocho in a [closed] tango embrace?

[He was referring to a statement by "Richard" (which appeared to be 
private email that was subsequently quoted to the list--as an aside, do 
make sure you have the permission of someone to quote personal email to 
the list).]

That was my reaction as well when I read Richard's statement (to be 
fair, he only said that the embrace "needs to breathe," which doesn't 
necessarily mean that it opens). But it's nonetheless a good example of 
the ways that Tango is done differently in Buenos Aires from the way it 
is taught outside of Buenos Aires (even by most of the teachers from 
Buenos Aires).

Tango22 is absolutely right that you can be in a completely closed 
embrace and execute a front ocho. It IS more difficult and requires 
better technique, but it's much more satisfying to dance as you remain 
connected with (not just "in contact with") your partner throughout. As 
the woman is taking her forward step on the right foot, the man needs to 
step forward into the space occupied by the woman just as she is 
vacating it, while rotating to the right with the woman. It's the 
dynamic effect of the man doing this that then creates the woman's lead 
and done this way it allows the couple to remain in an entirely close 
embrace throughout and they move naturally together. (Sorry, it's not 
really possible to explain this entirely in words ... .)

This as opposed to the way most beginners seem to be taught the ocho, 
where the focus seems to be exclusively on what the woman is doing, to 
the detriment of the man's technique. The man ends up using his arms 
mostly rather than his body, and the woman ends up not feeling enough of 
a lead and often develops an unfortunate tendency to complete the ocho 
on her own.



On a related subject, the business of automatically switching from open 
to close embrace in the middle of a figure also seems extremely 
artificial to me. Yes, I took workshops from famous (and well-respected, 
including by me) Argentine teachers where the subject of the workshop 
was something like "How to switch back and forth between close and open 
embrace." But in practice, I find the effect jarring and entirely 
unnecessary (except when I realize early that a woman is uncomfortable 
in a close embrace and I need to open it ONCE for the rest of that dance 
and that tanda). Particularly jarring is when the woman AUTOMATICALLY 
pushes away into an "exhibition-style" hold at the first sign of an ocho 
or giro coming up (by that I mean her left hand moving from around my 
shoulder down to my bicep, and then using that hold to push herself away 
from me as "preparation" for the ocho or giro). It is completely 
unnecessary in social dancing (not to mention destroying the feeling of 
connection), unless one is switching back and forth between salon 
dancing and exhibition or nuevo-type figures (and even then the change 
should be led).

Shahrukh

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 18:28:56 2009
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:28:56 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  Smooth Tango :: Two tone wingtips do not a leader make
Message-ID: <B592D403-32CB-40A6-AD10-9C340D899F81@gmail.com>

Alex quotes Richard who says:

> Alex - One of the things that continues to astonish me is that many  
> beginning dancers -- and for all I know many experienced dancers --  
> think that if you are holding your partner close to you, then you  
> are dancing close embrace. In fact,

> in salon tango you are pressed against your partner until you need  
> to do a figure (front ochos spring to mind) where the embrace needs  
> to breathe.

> Close embrace itself doesn't open up, uses a subset of the figures  
> of salon tango, and is danced at a slightly different tempo than  
> salon tango.

When I read authoritative-sounding definitions like this I wonder  
where they came from. Not from Argentina, I suspect.

And it reminds me that Daniel Trenner will give a lecture in a few  
days at Valentango on the "History & Development of Tango in the U.S."

I really wish I could go. (I really hope his talk will be published.)

I would like to ask Daniel where the term "Close Embrace Tango" came  
from, and who defined it, and what it originally meant.

I am not disputing the definition given by Richard, but just wondering  
where this term came from.



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 19:51:27 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:51:27 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace
Message-ID: <BAY105-W8C393B92D79DDB16ED2A397BD0@phx.gbl>


Joe says :  "I would like to ask Daniel where the term "Close Embrace Tango" came from, and who defined it, and what it originally meant."
 
It is very easy:  Traditional tango has two embraces close and open.
 
When we were teen agers and started dancing tango in Buenos Aires, we were introduced to the two embraces. Close embrace in traditional tango means that the man places his right nipple on the sternum (chest bone of the woman) and dances in that position.  
 
In those days (when I was 15 years old) it was proper to allow some slight "light" or separation of the chests when dancing in the
neighborhood club. The closenes was enhaced in the milongas downtown.
 
If and when you needed more room to execute a figure you allowed a bigger separation of the chests and then returned to the original position.  
 
Dancing with some degree of separation of the chests is called "open embrace".
 
Nuevo Tango has a fairly open embrace.
 
Milonguero style keeps the close embrace throughout the duration of the dance.
 
Traditional tango danced socially or for exhibition uses both close and open embrace.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJDowJI0-7s  Tete - Milonguero Style -  only close embrace.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJDowJI0-7s Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace -
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGTx1M8Vyk&feature=PlayList&p=A7403507F2664631&index=9 Osvaldo y Lorena
 
Traditional Tango - Close embrace - at 1:19 - 1:34 - 1:50 - 2;12 - 2:30 Osvaldo "throws" or releses the embrace
to cause the chests to separate to be able to execute certain figures.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9mGaSPm97A&feature=PlayList&p=A7403507F2664631&index=7 Osvaldo -close embrace - Traditional Tango 
 
Best regards,  Sergio
 
  
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 20:06:10 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:06:10 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
Message-ID: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&p=642FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6

 

Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace

 

Sergio

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From politas at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 22:00:27 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:00:27 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&p=642FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
> Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace

He's really leading with his arms in this. There's hardly any chest 
connection. It really is a quite different dance, isn't it?

Myk
in Canberra

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 22:52:47 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 19:52:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Tango, Daniel Trenner
In-Reply-To: <B592D403-32CB-40A6-AD10-9C340D899F81@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <310151.1879.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to ask Daniel where the term "Close
> Embrace Tango" came from, and who defined it, and what it originally meant.

The term came from Daniel Trenner.  When I first met him 8 years ago at one of his Montreal tango tours, he said that he was the one who coined it.  He didn't give much more detail.  This would make sense, since I understand that Argentines don't think of it as two different embraces.

We were very lucky to have Daniel here a few weeks ago, opening his first planned tour in 7 years.  It was a great weekend, and I can see why he is called the Johnny Appleseed of tango.  He encouraged such enthusiasm and excitement from first-time students.  He conveys the culture of BsAs, particularly male and female relationships, better than anyone I know.  So many stories!  And he was so generous and eager to share them.  I really had to watch the clock and chase people away from him to keep things reasonably on track because he was so giving.  It was really nice to have someone separate myth from reality.  Some of it surprised me.  A lot supported some things that I heard about but wasn't sure of.  You can also order some Bridge to the Tango videos (VHS) at his workshops.

The after-effects in my community have been encouraging.  People are now working on both their leading and following. Some of us are trying his teaching techniques in our classes.  Attendance in classes and practicas by beginners are up.  It's been almost a month and we're still digesting the material and incorporating bits and pieces into the community.  I'm glad to be reminded of some of the technical things I learned from him eight years ago.

His voice has been away from the wider tango community for too long.  His is a voice that can give some grounding to the tango developing today.  I encourage everyone to attend his lectures and workshops if possible.  He's currently in Portland, but he'll be in Houston (Miles), San Francisco (Homer), and perhaps a few other places from now until May.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 23:09:55 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:09:55 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>

Myk

Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip.  It is often
misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't.  Keeping ones
frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
would then be 'using the arms'.

Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
enough, but the leading is the same.  Very hard for most salon/close
embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
lead correctly when open.  Like anything, it takes practice.

Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
regularly performs.  Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

:-)
Damian

2009/2/10 Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com>
>
> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&p=642FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
> > Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace
>
> He's really leading with his arms in this. There's hardly any chest
> connection. It really is a quite different dance, isn't it?
>
> Myk
> in Canberra
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From politas at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 00:44:23 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:44:23 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49911437.2090202@gmail.com>

Noughts wrote:
> Myk
> 
> Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip.  It is often
> misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't.  Keeping ones
> frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
> would then be 'using the arms'.
> 
The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing 
than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside 
him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just 
that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the 
debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as 
traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.

> Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
> enough, but the leading is the same.  Very hard for most salon/close
> embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
> lead correctly when open.  Like anything, it takes practice.
>
Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is 
leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the 
frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the 
chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different 
way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in 
order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.

> Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
> regularly performs.  Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
> in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
> hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're 
dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then 
beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are 
leading with your arms.

Myk,
in Canberra

From politas at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 00:44:23 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:44:23 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49911437.2090202@gmail.com>

Noughts wrote:
> Myk
> 
> Chicho is definitely NOT using his arms in this clip.  It is often
> misconstrued when people use arms and when they don't.  Keeping ones
> frame is different to using the arms independent of the frame which
> would then be 'using the arms'.
> 
The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing 
than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside 
him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just 
that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the 
debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as 
traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.

> Whilst visually different and feeling different, I can't stress this
> enough, but the leading is the same.  Very hard for most salon/close
> embrace dancers to understand as they rarely get enough time/skill to
> lead correctly when open.  Like anything, it takes practice.
>
Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is 
leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the 
frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the 
chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different 
way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in 
order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.

> Watch Chicho when he is doing close embrace or salon as well which he
> regularly performs.  Note that the hand in both close/salon and then
> in open stays roughly the same distance in front and to the side,
> hence, NOT pushing or pulling.

Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're 
dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then 
beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are 
leading with your arms.

Myk,
in Canberra

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 01:29:15 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:29:15 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L]  chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>

Myk

This is my point.  The lead IS the same. Style and emphasis are
different.  The same principle and techniques are employed.  In actual
fact, the better the lead (Chicho, Veron, Naviera etc) the less you
would even notice.  The lead is SOLELY through the chest.  Maintaining
the frame is NOT pushing or pulling, relaxing the frame and allowing
your arms to move is NOT pushing or pulling (what you see in these
videos).

Again, as I stated before - using the arms as you say automatically
means that a person is pushing, or pulling, if you don't understand
this, then there is not much I can say or do other than demonstrate it
with you - it is something you feel, not something you observe.  As
you stated, in a lot of his dancing, he has no chest connection.. does
that automatically mean no chest lead?  Answer - no.  Simple.  Cecilia
Gonzalez and other great dancers for years have showed how to maintain
a connection without contact.  If you think that, then you are truly
quite naive in the way of open dancing and nuevo and only expousing
one perspective quite possibly.  An excellent lead in open uses
nothing but chest.  This you possibly have yet to experience.

In contrast, then you would say that all 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers
only use chest - and almost every woman would tell you that the
majority of 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers also use their arms, hands,
wrists, forearms and fingers to change a lead, change direction and or
execute some other lead.  Is it correct?  Is it wrong?  Well, that is
an entire debate in itself.  Watch most "milonguero's" (definition,
self taught dancer) and they have their own style, but really, that
does not automatically make them a good dancer.  Most are too strong
in the frame, squeeze the life out of a woman or man (women do it too
unfortunately).

So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
basically chest only.  The technique is the same.  Having danced and
competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
this is quite synonymous.

Again, your perogative to disagree - hope that one day you experience
a good dancer in all the styles, then maybe you will understand.  Or,
you and any other person could just decide that no, my teachers, me,
other teachers that teach this and almost any good dancer has no idea
and you may never actually explore or learn it further.

At no point have I even entered into a debate about Nuevo in a
Traditional milonga - both co-exist at basically every milonga in BA -
even the most traditional.  That is another debate entirely.

> The frame changes shape far more radically in Chicho's 'nuevo' dancing
> than in traditional tango. There are times when the lady is more beside
> him than in front of him. I'm not saying that it's bad or evil, just
> that it is a quite different style of dance. Wherever you fall in the
> debate about whether nuevo dancing belongs in the same milongas as
> traditional dancing, you have to agree that they are different styles.
>
> Sorry, Damian, but I disagree. The leading is not "the same". Chicho is
> leading with his frame (using the arms to adjust the shape of the
> frame), more like ballroom dancing. Traditional tango leads from the
> chest, and your chest is always facing your partner. That's a different
> way of leading, and dancing. Chicho abandons the chest connection in
> order to make a more visually interesting and varied dance.
>
> Did I say pushing or pulling? No. I said "using". When the person you're
> dancing with is beside your chest, then in front of your chest, then
> beside your chest again, you are not leading with your chest, you are
> leading with your arms.
>

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 02:11:28 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:11:28 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl><4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com><cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com><49911437.2090202@gmail.com><cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>

No it is not.  Not in salsa where there is no connection but lots of hand 
leading.  Not Latin ballroom.  Yes I have/am doing both. Frankly I thought 
the dancing somewhat staged in the video.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:29 PM
To: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L]  chicho - sorry


>
> So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
> nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
> basically chest only.  The technique is the same.  Having danced and
> competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
> this is quite synonymous.
>
 


From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 02:29:18 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:29:18 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>

With Chicho's permission, I am posting this part of our conversation.

Damian

chicho, would you say you lead with your arms? Esp when you danced with Eugenia?

a great debate is raging!

on this video :-):-) LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bEPOvOp9c&feature=PlayList&p=642FCECA51E2D428&playnext=1&index=6
6:23pmMariano

nice video this...long time ago...Thanks.
6:24pmDamian

si, agree, but I am fighting saying that there is no arm leading, you
are not pushing or pulling, it's all lead and freestyle.. yes?

por favor, si/no?

???
6:24pmMariano

never arms

is the conection
6:24pmDamian

gracias - may I quote you for this?
6:24pmMariano

in the soul in the hearts


Any further questions for the man that not only lead it, but danced
it?  One of our greatest tango dancers ever?

Damian


Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
will become a better dancer than you already are...

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 02:45:56 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:45:56 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl><4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com><cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com><49911437.2090202@gmail.com><cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com><cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>


> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you

Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.

But they do not teach leading with the chest.  And yes I have studied under 
one of the great ballroom teachers.  Nor has anyone from any of the schools 
I have done salsa at have taught chest leads.

And I was only disagreeing with you on salsa/ballroom only.  Maybe you had 
unique teachers before you began tango?

> will become a better dancer than you already are...
Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where.......

See you soon.......


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:29 PM
To: "tango-l" <tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

>
 


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Feb 10 05:29:12 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:29:12 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Flight information
Message-ID: <2B3BB7B197C24971ABCBD2A1F6B9C380@michaelditkoff>

I'm making my first trip to BA in April and could use some travel information. I have two good choices. If I fly American Airlines to Miami and change to Aerolineas Argentina to BA, is my luggage automatically forwarded between the airlines? The same thing on the return. I guess I'll go through immigration at Miami because there's no immigration at Washington National. I could fly American Airlines but I still have to change planes in Miami, The schedule is slightly longer than American to Aeolineas Argentina.

The current expedia, travelocity fare is about $730 before fees. I should have jumped when the fare was $550. I'm jumping now before the fares go up again.

Michael Ditkoff
Going to Tango Mecca in April

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Tue Feb 10 07:10:57 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:10:57 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Flight information
In-Reply-To: <2B3BB7B197C24971ABCBD2A1F6B9C380@michaelditkoff>
References: <2B3BB7B197C24971ABCBD2A1F6B9C380@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <20090210121057.326760@gmx.net>

in order to help you better we'd need more information:
which/where is your port of orign? 
USA/Europe/Australasia/Africa?

thx,
christian




-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:29:12 -0500
> Von: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> An: "Tango L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Flight information

> I'm making my first trip to BA in April and could use some travel
> information. I have two good choices. If I fly American Airlines to Miami and
> change to Aerolineas Argentina to BA, is my luggage automatically forwarded
> between the airlines? The same thing on the return. I guess I'll go through
> immigration at Miami because there's no immigration at Washington National. I
> could fly American Airlines but I still have to change planes in Miami, The
> schedule is slightly longer than American to Aeolineas Argentina.
> 
> The current expedia, travelocity fare is about $730 before fees. I should
> have jumped when the fare was $550. I'm jumping now before the fares go up
> again.
> 
> Michael Ditkoff
> Going to Tango Mecca in April
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

-- 
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 07:34:57 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:34:57 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...

Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.

Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
coming from their chest.  They phrase it differently like - "keep that
frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
will come up with.  At the end of the day, the turn always, always
begins with the core muscles.  Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.

So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey?  Wow,
that is impressive, love to see that.  Basic turns, you don't move
your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
Impressive... Have to see that!


2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>:
>
>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>
> Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>
> Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where.......

Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
it is quite a tight fit in there....

Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.

See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
way inclined 'Vinnie'....  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.

Bye Tango-l.

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 07:39:02 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:39:02 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902100439g7b12b56dje524ab34ce76a1a0@mail.gmail.com>

Interestingly enough.... Many people warned me not to bother with this
forum, due to the very very theoretical armchair experts.

I would have to concur now....

Get out and dance people.

I am now unsubscribed.

2009/2/10 Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com>:
> Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...
>
> Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
> then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest.  They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with.  At the end of the day, the turn always, always
> begins with the core muscles.  Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
> begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
> That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.
>
> So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey?  Wow,
> that is impressive, love to see that.  Basic turns, you don't move
> your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
> Impressive... Have to see that!
>
>
> 2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>>
>> Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>>
>> Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where.......
>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'....  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
>

From politas at gmail.com  Tue Feb 10 07:49:58 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:49:58 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <499177F6.9050701@gmail.com>

Noughts wrote:
> As
> you stated, in a lot of his dancing, he has no chest connection.. does
> that automatically mean no chest lead?  Answer - no.  Simple.  Cecilia
> Gonzalez and other great dancers for years have showed how to maintain
> a connection without contact.  If you think that, then you are truly
> quite naive in the way of open dancing and nuevo and only expousing
> one perspective quite possibly.  An excellent lead in open uses
> nothing but chest.  This you possibly have yet to experience.

It's a different type of connection, and gives the dance a different 
look. Part of what makes traditional tango such an emotive dance is the 
fact that the partners are always facing each other, chest to chest, 
while their legs are wandering in different directions. There's 
something about that visible connection that helps give tango its 
mystique. Nuevo discards this particular element of the dance. (And not 
all traditional tango dancers manage to keep it in place, either)

> In contrast, then you would say that all 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers
> only use chest - and almost every woman would tell you that the
> majority of 'Salon/Close' embrace dancers also use their arms, hands,
> wrists, forearms and fingers to change a lead, change direction and or
> execute some other lead.  Is it correct?  Is it wrong?  Well, that is
> an entire debate in itself.  Watch most "milonguero's" (definition,
> self taught dancer) and they have their own style, but really, that
> does not automatically make them a good dancer.  Most are too strong
> in the frame, squeeze the life out of a woman or man (women do it too
> unfortunately).

Indeed. If all the leading came from the chest, there would be no need 
for arms, other than embracing. But then, isn't that something we do in 
practice at times? Drop the arms and lead purely with the chest? Which 
would indicate that there is a definite goal or intention to lead from 
the chest. But there is no way that Chicho could lead many of those 
moves without his arms. He'd have to change to a salon style, keeping 
his partner in front of his chest.

> So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
> nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
> basically chest only.  The technique is the same.  Having danced and
> competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
> this is quite synonymous.

No, sorry, I disagree. The chest is where the motion starts, but the 
arms modify and transmit the motion. In some dances, they modify it more 
than others. Nuevo dancing is closer to the ballroom level of arm input 
than the traditional tango level.

I guess it's partially a difference in definitions. The term "leading 
from the chest" is not something that you can look up in a dictionary 
and get a precise definition of. From one perspective, you can say that 
all partner dances are lead "from the chest", since that is the root of 
all body motion. But to say that removes the purpose of the distinction 
between arm leading and chest leading. At one end of the spectrum are 
dances like ceroc and lindy hop, where it's almost all adjustment of 
arms and hands that define the lead. At the other end, in my experience, 
is milonguero style, with a a physical chest to chest connection that 
hardly ever breaks, and the arms are almost superfluous.

Yes, the chest is still an important part of nuevo, but the arms play a 
much greater role than they do in traditional tango. And for me, this 
seems to be almost the defining difference between the styles. Every 
other difference between the two styles I have seen posited has been 
shot down by the regulars on this list.

> At no point have I even entered into a debate about Nuevo in a
> Traditional milonga - both co-exist at basically every milonga in BA -
> even the most traditional.  That is another debate entirely.

I think we're pretty much in agreement there, though we probably have 
different opinions on the exact mix of music. That particular phrase was 
more aimed towards the rest of the list than yourself.

Myk
in Canberra

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 08:09:11 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:09:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <301431.36302.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I've been trying to stay away from Ballroom discussions but, c'mon Damian!

I've studied Ballroom in the UK with the world's greatest dancers and teachers, 
including my personal?favourite - John Wood. NOT ONE EVER mentioned a 
chest lead.

If they used another term that you're interpreting as a 'chest lead' and it works 
for you - fine. But please don't say ... "Every ballroom studio teacher worth their 
salt will teach the lead coming from their chest" because it just isn't true.

Jack



> From: Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
> 
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest..? They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with.? 


      



From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 08:21:06 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:21:06 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W4419A17680F5169BD62D8F97BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4990EDCB.9020208@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092009x277ff349j4f4be0c702f5f120@mail.gmail.com>
	<49911437.2090202@gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092227g176181c3k671509901d3cefd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0902092229m42607d33y361b532e9fa502a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA953C48FB5F6D076229AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902092329n6f638cb1v5aee48991a2c97a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS35004264657CD1C25B979AEBD0@phx.gbl>
	<cb8208d0902100434x13e41a9br15f405a14343e667@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS330B1426CC695FF6F9318AEBD0@phx.gbl>

Damian of Jeditango your reputation proceeds you ever since I saw you in 
action at BASH II  You really don't know who I am do you?  Maybe you should 
make some enquiries in Canberra before you mouth off further.  You really do 
no favours for yourself as a potential teacher to the tango community who 
read this post.


To think that I was wanting get tips from you when I move to Melbourne this 
Sunday.

Cheers

>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'....  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
> 

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 08:33:15 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:33:15 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  chicho - sorry
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS3CA89348DF31C9CCAD63DAEBD0@phx.gbl>

Dear Sir/Madam,

In responding to this to what appears to be an insult, to my sexuality etc, 
I did not trim my post.

I do apologize sincerely.  Just lost it there for a while.

Vince

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Noughts" <damian.thompson at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:34 PM
To: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis at hotmail.com>
Cc: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

> Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...
>
> Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
> then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest.  They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with.  At the end of the day, the turn always, always
> begins with the core muscles.  Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
> begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
> That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.
>
> So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey?  Wow,
> that is impressive, love to see that.  Basic turns, you don't move
> your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
> Impressive... Have to see that!
>
>
> 2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>>
>> Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>>
>> Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where.......
>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there....
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned....
> but now, I'm not losing out.... you will.
>
> See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'....  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

From thorstenzoerner at gmx.de  Tue Feb 10 09:13:53 2009
From: thorstenzoerner at gmx.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thorsten_Z=F6rner?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:13:53 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Bye for now.
Message-ID: <E3C4BCCA-6A20-4EF2-BD7A-A07036C251B9@gmx.de>

Dear list,

this is Thorsten, tango teacher and DJ from Duesseldorf, Germany,  
signing off Tango-L today.
Thank you very much for all your great contributions and links and  
ideas.

It has been simmering and I am now sufficiently fed up with the way how
some members of this list prefer to interact disrespectfully with each  
other.

It totally contradicts with what I find the most important concept in  
tango: respect.

Cheers,
Thorsten.


From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU  Tue Feb 10 15:23:42 2009
From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:23:42 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Bye for now
Message-ID: <4991E24E.30302@mit.edu>

Future posts by "Noughts" and "Vince" are temporarily being reviewed to 
ensure that they are rules-compliant. This is usually done for posts 
that violate the "no flaming" rules (most other rules violations get a 
warning, or are often ignored if they are minor and/or not repeated).

I hope, however, that they do continue to post, as much of the content 
was otherwise informative and interesting.

As far as another reader's comment:

> It has been simmering and I am now sufficiently fed up with the way how
> some members of this list prefer to interact disrespectfully with each  
> other.

Point well taken, but allow me to suggest a more constructive response 
(than complaining to the list, or at least in ADDITION to complaining to 
the list): Post something to the list YOURSELF that is the kind of post 
you would like to see, written in the way you would like to see it 
written. No better way to make the point than by example, and the list 
then benefits by a well-written contribution as well.

And anyone who is reluctant to post for fear of being attacked: well, 
indeed your IDEA or OPINION may very well be "attacked" (disagreed with, 
perhaps strongly, though one hopes respectfully), but any PERSONAL 
attack, although I cannot guarantee will never happen, will certainly be 
short-lived, at least on Tango-L, and should therefore become rare.

Tango-L and Tango-A administrator
tango-L-owner at mit.edu

From sl at stevelittler.com  Tue Feb 10 16:53:18 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:53:18 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W8C393B92D79DDB16ED2A397BD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W8C393B92D79DDB16ED2A397BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4991F74E.8090602@stevelittler.com>

I have developed a sore right nipple. Is this common for men who dance 
mostly close embrace?

I have a light warm embrace, so I'm not crunching the ladies, but there 
is contact and I dance 4 - 5 times a week and sometimes 4 hours a night.

I wonder if this is not unusual, or should I run to the doctor for a 
checkup?

Steve

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>  
> Close embrace in traditional tango means that the man places his right nipple on the sternum (chest bone of the woman) and dances in that position.  
>  
>   

From abungureanu at googlemail.com  Tue Feb 10 17:30:51 2009
From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:30:51 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Bye for now
In-Reply-To: <4991E24E.30302@mit.edu>
References: <4991E24E.30302@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4992001B.8000204@googlemail.com>



Am 10.02.2009 21:23 schrieb Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator :
> Point well taken, but allow me to suggest a more constructive response 
> (than complaining to the list, or at least in ADDITION to complaining to 
> the list): Post something to the list YOURSELF that is the kind of post 
> you would like to see, written in the way you would like to see it 
> written. No better way to make the point than by example, and the list 
> then benefits by a well-written contribution as well.
>
>   
Actually, the first posting by "Noughts" was the kind of contribution I 
want to see. For someone being attacked in public, he was remarkably 
nice and quiet. Than he was driven in a discussion of the type "I am 
right and you are wrong" and finally ended on review.
The lesson learned: Don't post anything that might be a matter of 
controversy. The rest is unfortunately not worth of being posted at all :-(
Andy

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 17:34:16 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:34:16 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Message-ID: <BLU119-W18D8AC3EBF1769A19C1B191BD0@phx.gbl>


In the interest of civility of discussion on this list, I would like to suggest that we all think carefully about our use of certain loaded expressions.  Two that come immediately to mind are the terms "traditional tango" and "social tango".   Whose tradition are you talking about?  Tango as danced in 1920? 1930?  Villa Urqueza?  BsAs today?  And by which dancer or set of dancers?  It appears to me that both "traditional tango" and "social tango" are often used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'.

Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no "new" movements!  All modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years past.  So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango.

Similarly, the use of "social tango" to mean only close embrace, or at least to exclude a number of the modern tango movements, appears to reflect ignorance of the fact that modern tango is not based on choreography and patterns.  It is not "show tango".  Rather, it is purely lead-follow, is danced socially for your self and your partner, and is based on invention to a degree at least equal to that of close embrace all the time tango.  To suggest otherwise can be quite insulting to one who has worked to attain the level of skill required to dance modern.  A simple example that should be clear to all on this list is the volcada.  This is not a pattern at all.  Every degree of sweep of the woman's leg, the amount of extension, the timing, whether it goes to cross, steps out without the cross or is reversed mid sweep, every aspect is led.  So why should one who has worked to attain the requisite skill level to lead or follow this be told that he/she is not dancing socially?  The level of heart-to-heart connection required to execute a beautiful volcada is certainly equal to that required to execute a beautiful ocho cortada.  And the volcada, as is true with any other "modern" motion, need not occupy any more floor space than an ocho cortada.

Finally, I'll mention the lead.  A good modern tango dancer nearly always leads with his chest, his core and his heart.  If my partner is to my side, I still lead with my heart and my core.  I don't ever shove her with my arms.  The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous connection between my heart and hers.  Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my fingers, but the lead is from my core.  The rest just adds nuance.  Again, it is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, is not led with the heart and the chest.

Although we may differ in our preferred styles, I think that we should respect our fellow dancers and think carefully about our language.

Yours in tango

D. David Thorn


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 17:45:06 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:45:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho, Chest Lead, Space lead,
Message-ID: <638480.98691.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Forgive me, Damian, for cc'ing you although you have already unsubscribed, but I've only just read today's exchanges.

I can't help but think that those who responded to the Chicho thread may have mistakenly assumed what "chest lead" meant.  That everyone was talking about the same thing.  I tend to think of leading as creating or taking away of space.  If the woman's default is to get back in front of the man's chest, potentially, everything could be a chest lead, perhaps accompanied by arms, legs, feet, etc.

This could have been a revealing thread had it been further broken down.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 18:06:19 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:06:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] pre-school all over again
Message-ID: <638727.78840.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Wow!!

I have to say that the longer I live the more convinced I am that humans instead of aging indeed do regress mentally over time --  or maybe even do not mature at all after their 5th B-day.

The latest "Chicho" exchange is proof of that....  the funny thing though was Chicho's remarks..... he simply said..." wow that was long ago... not arms just connection."  That was it no 'blah, blah, blah'. Just a quick and simple statement....  and the conversation ended. :- ))))))

And here we are some of you bickering.... talking this and that about someone that is above all of this.... really he is simply concerned with dancing... 

For me this situation is very much like this... A bunch of people bored with their 'real life' routines select an artifact (anything like video, music, dancing style) and go on a tirade using that artifact as an outlet for their insecurities and other stuff....

I feel for the moderator of our list... their 'babysitting' job must be at best tedious.

Shame on you... really

Amaury

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at MIT.EDU [mailto:tango-l-bounces at MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 PM
To: tango-l at MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bye for now

Future posts by "Noughts" and "Vince" are temporarily being reviewed to ensure that they are rules-compliant. This is usually done for posts that violate the "no flaming" rules (most other rules violations get a warning, or are often ignored if they are minor and/or not repeated).

I hope, however, that they do continue to post, as much of the content was otherwise informative and interesting.

As far as another reader's comment:

> It has been simmering and I am now sufficiently fed up with the way 
> how some members of this list prefer to interact disrespectfully with 
> each other.

Point well taken, but allow me to suggest a more constructive response (than complaining to the list, or at least in ADDITION to complaining to the list): Post something to the list YOURSELF that is the kind of post you would like to see, written in the way you would like to see it written. No better way to make the point than by example, and the list then benefits by a well-written contribution as well.

And anyone who is reluctant to post for fear of being attacked: well, indeed your IDEA or OPINION may very well be "attacked" (disagreed with, perhaps strongly, though one hopes respectfully), but any PERSONAL attack, although I cannot guarantee will never happen, will certainly be short-lived, at least on Tango-L, and should therefore become rare.

Tango-L and Tango-A administrator
tango-L-owner at mit.edu
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l




      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Feb 10 19:11:32 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:11:32 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] UP, up and away
Message-ID: <1C5B191111A14D4F977233DC739FB1D8@michaelditkoff>

Thank you list for your advice in flying one airline to BA and back to avoid problems with lost luggage. I'm flying American Airlines, for $743 + $83 fees for $826. It's a good thing I reserved the ticket yesterday. Today, it costs over $900 BEFORE fees. The moral of the story is when you see a good fare, grab it.


Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From politas at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 10:27:07 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:27:07 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W18D8AC3EBF1769A19C1B191BD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W18D8AC3EBF1769A19C1B191BD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4992EE4B.7010009@gmail.com>

David Thorn wrote:
> It appears to me that both "traditional tango" and "social tango" are often used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'.
> 
So what term can we use to refer to the tango that is not "nuevo tango"? 
That's what I was using "Traditional tango" for.

> Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no "new" movements!  All modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years past.  So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango.

The nuevo style must have _some_ difference, or we wouldn't be able to 
call it a distinct style. If it contains no new movements, then the 
difference would seem (in my observation) to be in the dancers' 
alignment relative to their partners' chests. Does anyone actually want 
to _discuss_ this?

> Finally, I'll mention the lead.  A good modern tango dancer nearly always leads with his chest, his core and his heart.  If my partner is to my side, I still lead with my heart and my core.  I don't ever shove her with my arms.  The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous connection between my heart and hers.  Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my fingers, but the lead is from my core.  The rest just adds nuance.  Again, it is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, is not led with the heart and the chest.

You cannot lead an underarm turn without using your arms. (Surely that 
is obvious?) The motion and the intent still comes from the chest, but 
to claim that that's what "chest leading" means is to rob the term of 
any effective meaning. All leading comes from the chest (and the 
"heart", if you insist, but I'm really just talking about the basics) 
from one perspective. But in some dances, the arms play a greater role 
than others. It's simple fact. To guide your partner to move to your 
side (relative to your chest) and back in front can't be done just with 
the chest.

How this observation can be considered to be insulting, is what baffles 
me. I say "here is a difference I can see". And in response, I get 
people saying I'm being insulting.

What insult?

Why is perceived _difference_ an insult?

Myk
in Canberra

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 11:18:52 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:18:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
Message-ID: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I probably should just mind my own business and do as I have said before in other postings.... work instead of reading tango related messages.  However I see an opportunity here to help future online interactions.

The problem with text only computer mediated communication (mostly text-based applications such as chat, BBS and email) is that the medium is in itself very 'lean'.  By lean I mean we do not have other nuances such as visual and aural cues for us to interpret what someone is 'saying'.  

In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues.  Such strategies include the use of emoticons  :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

Having said that... we can also really complicate communication in lean text-based communication .  Here are some approaches that do not lend themselves to constructive communication...

The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating.  For example Myk writes --> 
"... must have _some_ difference"; 
" ...You cannot lead an underarm..."; 
"... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc 

(I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.

Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough.  I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence.  So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.  


Following these simple rules could help improve the quality of our discussions.

Amaury

PS:  On a side note I must note that some of these patterns of behavior are ingrained in people as a result of educational, cultural, and GENDER experiences.  So things will not change overnight ... but at least we can try. 

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:27 AM
To: tango-l
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T

David Thorn wrote:
> It appears to me that both "traditional tango" and "social tango" are often used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'.
> 
So what term can we use to refer to the tango that is not "nuevo tango"? 
That's what I was using "Traditional tango" for.

> Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no "new" movements!  All modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years past.  So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango.

The nuevo style must have _some_ difference, or we wouldn't be able to 
call it a distinct style. If it contains no new movements, then the 
difference would seem (in my observation) to be in the dancers' 
alignment relative to their partners' chests. Does anyone actually want 
to _discuss_ this?

> Finally, I'll mention the lead.  A good modern tango dancer nearly always leads with his chest, his core and his heart.  If my partner is to my side, I still lead with my heart and my core.  I don't ever shove her with my arms.  The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous connection between my heart and hers.  Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my fingers, but the lead is from my core.  The rest just adds nuance.  Again, it is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, is not led with the heart and the chest.

You cannot lead an underarm turn without using your arms. (Surely that 
is obvious?) The motion and the intent still comes from the chest, but 
to claim that that's what "chest leading" means is to rob the term of 
any effective meaning. All leading comes from the chest (and the 
"heart", if you insist, but I'm really just talking about the basics) 
from one perspective. But in some dances, the arms play a greater role 
than others. It's simple fact. To guide your partner to move to your 
side (relative to your chest) and back in front can't be done just with 
the chest.

How this observation can be considered to be insulting, is what baffles 
me. I say "here is a difference I can see". And in response, I get 
people saying I'm being insulting.

What insult?

Why is perceived _difference_ an insult?

Myk
in Canberra




      


From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 17:04:33 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:04:33 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace
In-Reply-To: <4991F74E.8090602@stevelittler.com>
References: <BAY105-W8C393B92D79DDB16ED2A397BD0@phx.gbl>
	<4991F74E.8090602@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS1D814495BB89C69BB9C0DAEBD0@phx.gbl>

With that much dancing I would be sure it is just  a rubbing sore.  Better 
keep open embrace until it is gone well away.

But men can develop breast cancer.  As men are usually reluctant to go to 
the doctor I would strongly urge you (or any other man in a similar 
circumstance) to seek medical advice if the pain persists.

Vince

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Littler" <sl at stevelittler.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:53 AM
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace

 


From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 15:24:19 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 07:24:19 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>

Last week at one of the practicas I went to that had for once more or less 
equal numbers of men/women. One lady who is a reasonable beginner asked me 
this question in an exasperated voice:

"What do I have to do to get a dance around here?"

I was a bit stunned to realize that she was sitting out on that night.

Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a practica, 
especially if there are ladies waiting.  If I dance longer, I feel the eyes 
and pressure on me to change partners. 


From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 15:49:19 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:49:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <384543.41301.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Is the practica a real practica or a milonga in disguise?  If it's a practica, she's free to approach men to practice with her.  

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 3:24 PM
> Last week at one of the practicas I went to that had for
> once more or less 
> equal numbers of men/women. One lady who is a reasonable
> beginner asked me 
> this question in an exasperated voice:
> 
> "What do I have to do to get a dance around
> here?"
> 
> I was a bit stunned to realize that she was sitting out on
> that night.
> 
> Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a
> practica, 
> especially if there are ladies waiting.  If I dance longer,
> I feel the eyes 
> and pressure on me to change partners. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 16:14:41 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:14:41 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W43BD2E1B55D263040BFB44A9BA0@phx.gbl>


Here in Portland woman ask men to dance all the time, whether at milongas or practicas.

          J



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009

From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Wed Feb 11 16:43:19 2009
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:43:19 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY102-DS6B652C7C3FCA4C45336A0AEBA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <bc7e48270902111343p6e0b5dbdm26b0400e28545899@mail.gmail.com>

Well, asking for a dance is generally a good way to address that issue I
would think. As far as you "feeling the pressure", well, it your prerogative
to feel whatever you want and act according to your wishes. I dance with the
people I want to for as long as we both want to dance together. The only
exception to that it would be if I was hired to be a "taxi dancer". Assuming
I would take such a job that is.


"What do I have to do to get a dance around here?"
>
> Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a practica,
> especially if there are ladies waiting.  If I dance longer, I feel the eyes
> and pressure on me to change partners.
>

From politas at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 00:19:35 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:19:35 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
In-Reply-To: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4993B167.9090304@gmail.com>

Amaury de Siqueira wrote:
> In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues.  Such strategies include the use of emoticons  :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a 
serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango 
from what came before (which I refer to as "traditional tango" for sake 
of convenience).

> The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating.  For example Myk writes --> 
> "... must have _some_ difference"; 
> " ...You cannot lead an underarm..."; 
> "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc 

But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny 
that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so, 
they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion.

I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead 
without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified.

And I was simply repeating other people's "all leading comes from the 
chest" statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't 
blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's 
not entirely true.

> (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.
> 
> Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough.  I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence.  So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it 
comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their 
own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says "just connection"? When 
his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then 
surely he _is_ using them?

And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did 
this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated 
to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a 
touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people! 
Relax!

> Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.  

But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth 
reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using 
what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers 
are _boring_ posts.

Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself 
at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho).


Myk
in Canberra

From brian at danceoftheheart.com  Thu Feb 12 06:03:22 2009
From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:03:22 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Improving Discussion - Clarification of terms
In-Reply-To: <4993B167.9090304@gmail.com>
References: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<4993B167.9090304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c98d01$85c2a720$9147f560$@com>

Dear List,

This is getting interesting. Thanks to Amaury & Myk for pursuing clarification of terms - here's my offering.


Clarification: LEAD

Is it possible to "lead" a follower without touching them? I hope we agree it is possible, at least in principle, because everyone in our classes does it in the first five minutes of their first class ;).


Clarification: CONNECTION

Chicho says (about his lead), "No arms, just connection"...

If it is possible to lead one's partner without touching them (see above), then I suppose we could call the mysterious signaling medium that makes this communication possible "connection".  Perhaps this is what Chicho refers to here.  But apparently this would not need to be a "physical" connection for the lead/follow signal to be received and understood - as, again, our beginner students discover in the first five minutes.  

With this view of lead/follow connection, the arms are seen as "sufficient but not necessary" as a signaling medium for many tango ideas.  One can choose to use them for signaling, of course, and many leaders do - but apparently other non-physical signaling mechanisms can work just as well or better in many cases, since no physical effort would be required.  

On the other "hand", arms are certainly "necessary" for colgadas, otherwise somebody's hitting the floor, and it won't be me :) ;)
 
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
?Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time?




From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 07:08:53 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:08:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] part2 -improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
Message-ID: <939924.5271.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Folks,

Good morning and thank you for both supporting and not so supporting personal email messages.  

I simply pointed out the challenges of communicating in a text-based lean medium and offered 3 suggestions on how to AVOID (if that is one's intention) situations that could lead to online misunderstandings.

Some will follow others won't.... The consequences however will be fairly predictable.  

Respectfuly,
Amaury

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:20 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions

Amaury de Siqueira wrote:
> In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues.  Such strategies include the use of emoticons  :-) ... :-( .... ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings.

If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a 
serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango 
from what came before (which I refer to as "traditional tango" for sake 
of convenience).

> The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating.  For example Myk writes --> 
> "... must have _some_ difference"; 
> " ...You cannot lead an underarm..."; 
> "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc 

But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny 
that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so, 
they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion.

I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead 
without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified.

And I was simply repeating other people's "all leading comes from the 
chest" statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't 
blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's 
not entirely true.

> (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice.
> 
> Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough.  I mean I don?t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence.  So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious.

No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it 
comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their 
own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says "just connection"? When 
his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then 
surely he _is_ using them?

And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did 
this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated 
to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a 
touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people! 
Relax!

> Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur.  

But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth 
reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using 
what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers 
are _boring_ posts.

Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself 
at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho).


Myk
in Canberra
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l




      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 07:20:25 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:20:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
References: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<4993B167.9090304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77765.31379.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Certainly not from Buenos Aires! I'm currently taking classes with Susanna Miller in Mlongueando 2009. Almost her first statement was that .... "the idea that milongueros lead from the chest is a myth - they use their hands and arms". For the last 2 days, after years of leading from the chest,?I've been struggling to lead a lady's Back Ocho while keeping my chest perfectly still. 

I also take privates with Ana Maria Schapira. Same thing. She says to lead the Ocho Cortado, I need to use a strong inward pressure with my right forearm, otherwise the lady is likely to cross behind and not in front.

And please don't flame me and tell me thing?EVERYTHING can be led from chest only. I also believed that, but I'm not about to argue with Susanna Miller or Ana Maria Schapira. 

Jack


> From: Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com>
> 
> And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did 
> this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated 
> to such a high level of worthiness?? 
>
> 


      



From windycitytango at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 09:28:24 2009
From: windycitytango at yahoo.com (PJ Grant)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] SA: BsAs lodging for one, 2/27-3/17
Message-ID: <362446.23581.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 I am posting this on behalf of a Chicago friend who is
seeking lodging in Buenos Aires, for just herself.  She will arrive on
28 February and will depart on 17 March.   She needs an extremely quiet bedroom
that can be completely darkened.  She prefers a private
bathroom and some kitchen capabilities, in a neighborhood convenient to
milongas.  Kindly provide information with price to buenosairestrip at emailias.com.
 
Phoebe J. (PJ) Grant of WindyCityTango, Unlimited

312-60TANGO (312-608-2646) cell - text msgs OK
WindyCityTango at yahoo.com(for tango business messages)
TangoLadyChicago at yahoo.com(for immediate communication)
Promoter, Teacher, Performer, Sponsor of Argentine Tango

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Feb 12 10:56:22 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:56:22 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Nomenclature: Leading with the Chest vs Arms
Message-ID: <13176a380902120756o7382f3d2l9daa90161bcda57f@mail.gmail.com>

I've read the heated discussions about leading with the chest vs arms.
In the movie "Cool Hand Luke" which takes place at a prison in the
South, Luke upsets the prison warden who strikes him to the ground and
says "What we have here is a failure to communicate" and this failure
causes flames. I offer an alternative. A good leader doesn't lead
exclusively with his chest NOR his arms but with his FRAME. This is
the area above his waist, so I essentially lead with my chest AND my
arms.

When I read that a man leads with arms, my interpretation is he leads
ONLY with his arms. This means he is pulling or pushing the woman and
his arms are moving independently of his upper body, instead of in
concert with the rest of his upper body.

My left arm wasn't acting as part of my frame in the beginning. My
chest would lead the woman into a molinete to my left. My left arm
didn't rotate with my shoulders and acted as a gate. (I won't go into
how I painfully learned to get my left arm to become part of my
frame.)

When a woman complains of being pulled and pushed, it means she is
lead SOLELY by the man's arms.

I can only dance in close embrace so that my arms and chest move as
part of my frame. My frame envelops the woman like a frame around a
painting or a seat belt to hold a person snugly in a car.

At times, I wonder if posters are talking about the same thing, just
using different terms that throw others off track.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Atlanta Tango Festival in March followed by BA in April

-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Feb 12 12:47:20 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:47:20 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T (and definition of "Social Tango")
Message-ID: <499460A8.4040102@shahrukhmerchant.com>

David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> says:

> In the interest of civility of discussion on this list, I would like to suggest that we all think carefully about our use of certain loaded expressions.  Two that come immediately to mind are the terms "traditional tango" and "social tango".

> ... and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango.

Hi David,

Of course, both as a list reader and certainly as a moderator, I would 
endorse any attempt to make the list more civil.

However, while I would always try in my own posts to avoid having people 
feel insulted even indirectly, I really don't think that claiming a 
certain difference between "nuevo tango" and "traditional tango," or 
claiming a certain definition of those or any other terms, is 
*automatically* offensive to others who may feel that they do a good job 
straddling both forms (or who believe that they are really part of the 
same form, etc.).

Some make take issue with the claim, and contest it, and that is fine 
and even healthy (not just for the list, but really for Tango in 
general). Tension is not always bad--a lot of tension is healthy, and if 
it is all avoided or resolved simplistically, life becomes boring.

In this sense I would agree with Myk in Canberra who asks, rhetorically:
> What insult? Why is perceived _difference_ an insult? 

The problem only comes up when it takes an offensive personal tone or 
degrades to a personal attack (by which point it's generally become 
infantile and/or mindless anyway).


Returning to Tango, however (as opposed to Tango-L) ...

> Similarly, the use of "social tango" to mean only close embrace, or at least to exclude a number of the modern tango movements, appears to reflect ignorance of the fact that modern tango is not based on choreography and patterns.  It is not "show tango".  Rather, it is purely lead-follow, is danced socially for your self and your partner, and is based on invention to a degree at least equal to that of close embrace all the time tango

I think the term "social tango" is appropriately defined quite literally 
as "Tango suitable FOR SOCIAL DANCING." What you state above includes 
some of the elements but not all. E.g., "is danced socially for your 
self and your partner," is true enough but I would say instead, or 
rather in addition, that social tango is:

(1) FIRSTLY danced in a way considerate of everyone else on the dance 
floor, i.e., that not interfering with the enjoyment of others with whom 
you are ostensibly sharing space takes precedence even over the 
enjoyment of your partner (but not her safety ... though that should be 
a corner one should avoid painting oneself into!);

(2) SECONDLY danced for your partner's enjoyment (if necessary 
curtailing your own);

(3) THIRDLY danced for one's own enjoyment. (Those who take pleasure out 
of being successful in (1) and (2) above already have a great head start 
in (3).)

As far as "modern tango movements" go, they are not less social because 
they are modern by any means, but their character (spatially "bigger," 
faster and more flowing movements, etc.) make it harder to do in even a 
semi-crowded setting satisfactorily [cf. (2) and (3)] while not making a 
nuisance of oneself [cf. (1)], unless one is really tuned in to ones 
surroundings and is rather skillful. So of course it can be equally 
social, but in fewer circumstances and with more skillful and tuned-in 
dancers.


> Although we may differ in our preferred styles, I think that we should respect our fellow dancers and think carefully about our language.

Agree 100% (and not just on Tango-L).

Shahrukh

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 13:56:05 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:56:05 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with the heart and the core
Message-ID: <BLU119-W38130BAFCA24C315E30BEB91BB0@phx.gbl>


I said to "lead with the heart and the core" in my last post with considerable deliberation, because that is what I do, or try to do, always.  Yes, you are connected through the hands and arms, but they, as well as the chest, are merely extensions of your core, and of your heart, which is where you generate the care, the compassion, and the joy in the music that you must transmit to your partner.

A relevant example of this is the lead of an under arm turn.  I do not lead this with my arm.  The arm exerts absolutely no, zero, force.  An underarm turn is done with a very light finger-tip to finger-tip connection.  The real lead comes from the set-up of the turn (the 'pre-lead') and from my invitation.  It comes from the space I create for my partner to move into, the space that I block motion into, where I position my body throughout the turn, and where I position it to receive the turn.  The lead may even include my smile and the path of my gaze.  Does my right hand invite her back to move into it?  Does my frame invite a chest-to-chest "reconnection"?  All of that is part of the lead of an under arm turn.  And if she rejects, or simply doesn't get, any of this, I follow her and we do something else.  No big deal.  But not with the arms.

As to the use of the term "traditional tango", it is not I who have observed that there is nothing new about "nuevo tango", but rather many have commented on this.  I simply try to dance tango with all of it's richness of connection, invention and musical interpretation, which is, I believe, strongly in the tradition of tango.  I don't dance "nuevo", I don't dance "milonguero", but I try to dance inventivly and respectfully in the tradition of tango.  So yes, I think that I dance "traditional", even if it may not always look like it to your eye.

And I am indeed a romantic.  Otherwise, how could I dance tango?

David

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 14:22:48 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:22:48 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L]  Definition of "Social Tango"
Message-ID: <BLU119-W31304135C1EA5EE911CB7491BB0@phx.gbl>


Shahrukh Merchant wrote:

>> ... I really don't think that claiming a 
>> certain difference between "nuevo tango" and "traditional tango," or 
>> claiming a certain definition of those or any other terms, is 
>> *automatically* offensive to others who may feel that they do a good job 
>> straddling both forms ....

Agreed entirely.  I guess that I have become hypersensitive due to the occasional 
use of the expression "traditional" as lead in to an attack on those who dance "show tango" when 
in fact, as you point out, many on the forum do dance very broadly.  
My bad.

>> (1) FIRSTLY danced in a way considerate of everyone else on the dance floor...

Agreed entirely.  Again, what I am (over)reacting to is the occasionally presented position that 
unless one is dancing close embrace with simple steps, one is almost certainly dancing "show tango" 
and is _not_ being considerate.  However since one can easily dance all of the everything in 
tango, including colgadas, back secadas, soltadas, etc, in a small considerate manner occupying 
literally no more space than is required for an ocho cortada or molinete, I indeed should not 
take this rather defensive stance.  Yes, rude behavior on the dance floor is simply that - 
rude behavior. 

David

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009

From dchester at charter.net  Thu Feb 12 14:34:10 2009
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:34:10 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Improving Discussion - Clarification of terms
Message-ID: <20090212143410.K81M0.583955.root@mp20>

Brian,

That is an interesting way of describing it.  But for me, I'd call the mysterious signaling medium, "vision".  Also, if I was in open embrace, (and especially if the follower had her eyes closed), I'd say the signaling medium was my hands or arms.  It makes it a little less mysterious for me, rather than thinking of this nebulous thing called "connection".  

Regards,

David


------------------------------------------------
> From: "Brian Dunn" <brian at danceoftheheart.com> 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Improving Discussion - Clarification of terms 
> 
> . . . 
>  
> Clarification: LEAD 
>  
> Is it possible to "lead" a follower without touching them? I hope we agree it is 
> possible, at least in principle, because everyone in our classes does it in the 
> first five minutes of their first class ;). 
>  
> 
> Clarification: CONNECTION 
>  
> Chicho says (about his lead), "No arms, just connection"... 
>  
> If it is possible to lead one's partner without touching them (see above), then 
> I suppose we could call the mysterious signaling medium that makes this 
> communication possible "connection".  Perhaps this is what Chicho refers to 
> here.  But apparently this would not need to be a "physical" connection for the 
> lead/follow signal to be received and understood - as, again, our beginner 
> students discover in the first five minutes.  

From brian at danceoftheheart.com  Thu Feb 12 14:37:12 2009
From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:37:12 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Nomenclature: Clarification of terms, Part 2
In-Reply-To: <13176a380902120756o7382f3d2l9daa90161bcda57f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380902120756o7382f3d2l9daa90161bcda57f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c98d49$4dea4ea0$e9beebe0$@com>

Dear list,

Here's another terms-clarification attempt, submitted for your approval ;):

Clarification: LEAD WITH xxx (arms/frame/chest/other part of leader's
anatomy)
In our experience, by choosing to use the phrase "lead with (xxx)" in a
teaching context, we have already made some assumptions, and reinforced a
particular perspective on tango events, which has noticeable consequences
for our connection to our partner, and for our tango experience in general.
Because of this, it can be interesting and useful to re-examine those
assumptions and consequences, and reconsider our use of the phrase.

If we consider the idea "What does the leader lead with?", we see we're
talking about the leader DOING something with part of HIS body.  By framing
the problem as "what does the leader DO to lead?", the answer would seem to
be that the leader engages in a movement or series of movements using
various leader body part(s).  Of course, thinking of it this way can "work",
and many people have trained themselves to think of the problem of leading
this way.  But like the previous clarification of "lead", I'd say this
perspective is sufficient but not necessary for many tango ideas, and in
many other cases, actually creates unnecessary obstacles in the way of the
tango experience by diminishing the follower's sensation of the connection
with her leader.

One side-effect of this perspective is that the leader's attention is
REMOVED from the follower's body and focused on the leader's body while this
movement or movements of the leader's "leading code" is being executed. Once
this attention-removal is practiced often enough, it becomes a habit of mind
to remove attention from the follower's body into the leader's body in order
to initiate ANYTHING in the lead/follow tango conversation. Followers tend
to experience this attention-removal as a lessening of the sensation of
tango connection. While this can be overcome by unlearning this habit of
mind, many leaders never get that far in their tango careers.

We found it is possible to bypass many problems in learning tango
communication by reframing many tango communication situations in terms of
the follower's body exclusively. We do this for many tango ideas by focusing
on having the leader keep his/her attention relentlessly fixed on what the
follower's body should do, rather than taking an "attention detour" back
into the leader's body at all.  The leader's body then actually follows
along without much focused attention, as long as the follower's body is
taken care of.  

As peculiar as this may sound, it works very well in practice.  Beginners
prove to each other in the first class that they are all possessed of bodies
that are exquisitely sensitive perceiving devices, able to send and receive
mysterious information flows in ways difficult to explain, but easy to
experience.  Based on our results, by training these "attention habits" into
beginning leaders early on, the lead/follow communication is greatly
improved compared to the "what does the leader do" or "what does the leader
lead with" perspective.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From nina at earthnet.net  Thu Feb 12 14:58:19 2009
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:58:19 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Nomenclature: Clarification of terms, Part 2
In-Reply-To: <005c01c98d49$4dea4ea0$e9beebe0$@com>
References: <13176a380902120756o7382f3d2l9daa90161bcda57f@mail.gmail.com>
	<005c01c98d49$4dea4ea0$e9beebe0$@com>
Message-ID: <20090212125819.105318rvvck8riow@webmail.earthnet.net>

This might work, as long as no one leaves any body parts behind.:)

Nina






Quoting Brian Dunn <brian at danceoftheheart.com>:

> Dear list,
>
> Here's another terms-clarification attempt, submitted for your approval ;):
>
> Clarification: LEAD WITH xxx (arms/frame/chest/other part of leader's
> anatomy)
> In our experience, by choosing to use the phrase "lead with (xxx)" in a
> teaching context, we have already made some assumptions, and reinforced a
> particular perspective on tango events, which has noticeable consequences
> for our connection to our partner, and for our tango experience in general.
> Because of this, it can be interesting and useful to re-examine those
> assumptions and consequences, and reconsider our use of the phrase.
>
> If we consider the idea "What does the leader lead with?", we see we're
> talking about the leader DOING something with part of HIS body.  By framing
> the problem as "what does the leader DO to lead?", the answer would seem to
> be that the leader engages in a movement or series of movements using
> various leader body part(s).  Of course, thinking of it this way can "work",
> and many people have trained themselves to think of the problem of leading
> this way.  But like the previous clarification of "lead", I'd say this
> perspective is sufficient but not necessary for many tango ideas, and in
> many other cases, actually creates unnecessary obstacles in the way of the
> tango experience by diminishing the follower's sensation of the connection
> with her leader.
>
> One side-effect of this perspective is that the leader's attention is
> REMOVED from the follower's body and focused on the leader's body while this
> movement or movements of the leader's "leading code" is being executed. Once
> this attention-removal is practiced often enough, it becomes a habit of mind
> to remove attention from the follower's body into the leader's body in order
> to initiate ANYTHING in the lead/follow tango conversation. Followers tend
> to experience this attention-removal as a lessening of the sensation of
> tango connection. While this can be overcome by unlearning this habit of
> mind, many leaders never get that far in their tango careers.
>
> We found it is possible to bypass many problems in learning tango
> communication by reframing many tango communication situations in terms of
> the follower's body exclusively. We do this for many tango ideas by focusing
> on having the leader keep his/her attention relentlessly fixed on what the
> follower's body should do, rather than taking an "attention detour" back
> into the leader's body at all.  The leader's body then actually follows
> along without much focused attention, as long as the follower's body is
> taken care of.
>
> As peculiar as this may sound, it works very well in practice.  Beginners
> prove to each other in the first class that they are all possessed of bodies
> that are exquisitely sensitive perceiving devices, able to send and receive
> mysterious information flows in ways difficult to explain, but easy to
> experience.  Based on our results, by training these "attention habits" into
> beginning leaders early on, the lead/follow communication is greatly
> improved compared to the "what does the leader do" or "what does the leader
> lead with" perspective.
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> 775 Pleasant Street
> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
> 303-938-0716
> www.danceoftheheart.com
> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>




From brian at danceoftheheart.com  Thu Feb 12 15:49:42 2009
From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:49:42 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Improving Discussion - Clarification of terms
Message-ID: <006a01c98d53$6ec31350$4c4939f0$@com>

Hi David,

You wrote:
>>>
But for me, I'd call the mysterious signaling medium, "vision".  Also, if I
was in open embrace, (and especially if the follower had her eyes closed),
I'd say the signaling medium was my hands or arms.  It makes it a little
less mysterious for me, rather than thinking of this nebulous thing called
"connection".
<<<

True enough, everybody has their eyes open in the classes when we do this in
our standard curriculum, so certainly vision is commonly involved.

On the other hand, some OTHER communication experiments we run sometimes,
with leader's movements undetectable by intent onlookers, or even with
follower's eyes closed, raise verrry interesting questions.  As scientists
like to say at the end of experimental conclusions, "More research is
needed" ;)

In any case, it's meant to be a transitory short-duration learning
experience, to invite people to adopt a useful frame of reference for later
learning.  The LAST thing I'd want to do on a tango evening is spend too
much time not touching my partner ;)

Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 15:56:47 2009
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:56:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
References: <604532.11775.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<4993B167.9090304@gmail.com>
	<77765.31379.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5732.85517.qm@web32001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It just so happens that I was in that same class, Jack, when Susana shocked me too with her statement about the "myth." But, when you look at her leading, she does it with her whole frame, of course, not only the arms (someone else mentioned that on this list), unless she is exaggerating to illustrate something. Also, I took quite a few private lessons with Ana Maria and I never ever heard her say to lead with arms (only).

On the other hand I followed a few milongueros in various classes to feel what their lead feels like and occasionally I did feel a strong hand lead - perhaps they felt that otherwise I would not get the lead, I don't know.

In my view, there may be some very exceptional cases of dancing chest-to-chest when some more action of arms may be a bit helpful, but in general it should not be necessary at all.

So, no big deal. Whatever works and is comfortable to both partners is fine with me. There is no Central Committee on tango, no?

...dubravko

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================




________________________________
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
To: Tango-L <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:20:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions

Certainly not from Buenos Aires! I'm currently taking classes with Susanna Miller in Mlongueando 2009. Almost her first statement was that .... "the idea that milongueros lead from the chest is a myth - they use their hands and arms". For the last 2 days, after years of leading from the chest, I've been struggling to lead a lady's Back Ocho while keeping my chest perfectly still. 

I also take privates with Ana Maria Schapira. Same thing. She says to lead the Ocho Cortado, I need to use a strong inward pressure with my right forearm, otherwise the lady is likely to cross behind and not in front.

And please don't flame me and tell me thing EVERYTHING can be led from chest only. I also believed that, but I'm not about to argue with Susanna Miller or Ana Maria Schapira. 

Jack


> From: Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com>
> 
> And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did 
> this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated 
> to such a high level of worthiness?  
>
> 


      


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 22:21:26 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:21:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] lead with arms
References: <00a601c98d7a$7f9a6080$7ecf2180$@com>
Message-ID: <113933.79837.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Igor,

It wasn't Back Ochos in general but a particular Back Ocho. Susana Mller was assisted in the class by a milonguero who has danced for more than 70 years and is well known for this Back Ocho. Sorry, but I didn't catch his name but I've seen him many times in the milongas, despite him being old and frail.

He steps to left and lady to right. He leads her into a LF back cross and follows with his own?RF back cross. He then holds this position, on two feet,?while leading her to do a RF back cross to complete her Ocho. He can also lead her to another Ocho while still maintaining this position. It's these few steps that Susana told us were led by the man's arms. He can then?either walk out or lead her to a Giro to right or left. Of course, you can also lead these steps from the chest which is probably the way we would all do it,?but I think Susana was showing us the way this particular milonguero danced it. She certainly wasn't teaching us to lead Back Ochos using arms only. This was an advanced class and I think she was safe to assume that we all already knew how to dance normal?Back Ochos. But Susana is a very interesting person and is very interested in the ways different milongeros dance.

With Ana Maria Schapira, the arm-assist was just for the final step of the Ocho Cortado when it ends with the lady's cross in front, backwards, rather than forwards. Without the arm assist, Ana Maria said it was possible for the lady to mis-interpret the lead and do a back cross instead. This has certainly happened to me when the lady hasn't been familiar wth this type of Ocho Cortado. Ana Maria teaches Back Ochos with a chest-lead only; no arms.

In another class today, another milonguero was dancing this same Ocho Cortado [in Milonga] and, when ending with this lady's cross backwards, I believe he used the phrase ... "keeping a firm embrace". I would interpret this to mean the same as what Ana Maria was teachng me. It ensures the lady crosses in front and doesn't go behind..

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Igor Polk <ipolk at virtuar.com>
> To: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com
> Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:29:19 PM
> Subject: lead with arms
> 
> Dear Jack,
> 
> Does Susana Miller actually told you to keep the chest perfectly still while
> leading back ochos?
> 
> It is important for me..
> 
> It is really important for me know what Susana Miller said about it or what
> Ana Maria Schapira said about it. I adore Ana Maria, and I'd love to know
> what she said.
> 
> Igor



      



From scelesta at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 06:19:55 2009
From: scelesta at gmail.com (Anna Leinberger)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:19:55 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] leading with the arms
Message-ID: <48109a830902130319wabdb20fpda0a24b684d75b67@mail.gmail.com>

I am prefacing this submission with a disclaimer- that I am no expert,
no list of credentials, I am only weighing in based on my own personal
experience of dancing, so take my opinion for what you will.

In terms of leading with your arms, and why it has become so
"high-brow" (?) to not use your arms in a lead:

Again, based on my personal experience in following, a chest lead is
not only more comfortable, it feels more respectful, like a
partnership rather than a marionette show.  A chest lead feels subtle,
like your partner is communicating with you as opposed to to you.  I
do not like a lead that makes too much use of the arms- I feel pushed
about, like a puppet.  At its worst, I feel as if the man's arms are
two concrete walls and I am being tossed against them.  I am not
making any absolute statements, just making the suggestion that
perhaps the follower's experience of the lead helps to shape it.
Also, I find watching a dancer who moves the follower with his arms
and does not engage his core to even look a bit like a puppet master.


--
~Anna

From carlitokel at usa.net  Fri Feb 13 13:46:58 2009
From: carlitokel at usa.net (CHARLES KELLY)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:46:58 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L is still alive
Message-ID: <338NBmR6p4972S30.1234550818@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net>

TangoL is still alive.  I read it regularly, but respond only very
occasionally.  The tango "scene," both dance & music, has changed in BA and in
USA in recent years, and is continuing to change and evolve.  That is a good
thing, and shows that Tango is indeed alive; not dead or dying.

That being said, now two items; one enquiry, one suggestion:

1. Enquiry:  I've recently enjoyed seeing quite a few references to comments
by Chicho; I'm wondering what is the source of this.  Is/was there a published
interview, article, book, Internet-piece,...? If so, could someone please
cite.  Thanks.

2.  Improving TangoL content:  Personally, I generally find most interesting
and useful, not the long monologues and/or diatribes, or even the well-meaning
but often lengthy descriptive narratives -- but rather, references (URLs) to
video examples (usually uTube), with short specific commentary, observations,
or questions related to them.  Tango exists in a visual-time-space medium, so
using video clips as a starting point for discussion seems a useful way to
focus things a bit.

Of course some topics, such as tango etiquette, mores, manners, codes,
syndromes, etc.; or, discussion of, say, tango lyrics, will not naturally lend
themselves to video, and would therefore be expected to continue as text
discussions.  However I, for one, would welcome more discussion of the letera
& musica, and less ranting about perceived indiscretions on the dance-floor. 

Best regards to all.





From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 21:16:15 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:16:15 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L is still alive
In-Reply-To: <338NBmR6p4972S30.1234550818@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net>
References: <338NBmR6p4972S30.1234550818@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902131816q73eb5e24w9ecc0f8ea4c0b5@mail.gmail.com>

Charles,

The source was me.... It was a conversation I had with Chicho (one of
my teachers and a good friend) and with his permission I post the
relevant part of the conversation for this 'forum'.

It is in a previous part of this thread.

I still find it incredulous that anyone would say from a source as
great as Chicho, that he might be wrong - he, Arce, Naveira and so
forth are the cutting edge in reality.  Sure, there are now others
making their names as cutting edge nuevo teachers as well, but all the
information came from Naveira, Salas, Veron, Chicho etc.. etc...
etc... Considering these guys all agree on the principles and
techniques (although style differs thankfully), fairly hard to
dispute.  I know this from having spent considerable time with each of
them and their best students....

Damian


>
> 1. Enquiry:  I've recently enjoyed seeing quite a few references to comments
> by Chicho; I'm wondering what is the source of this.  Is/was there a published
> interview, article, book, Internet-piece,...? If so, could someone please
> cite.  Thanks.

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 22:35:19 2009
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:35:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] help grouping
Message-ID: <84012.79244.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi Folks,

I am not familiar at all with different orchestras.  I need some help with existing  schema (models) that would facilitate my understanding of rhythm, mood, style, etc... Even the categories are open to interpretation.   PLEASE I do not want this to be a thread of wrong or right... I just want to know if dancers out there have any particular way to group musical pieces or orchestras together.  Just starting to think about this makes me confused. I think this could be a very positive online community project that would inform dancers and non-dancers alike.  Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. thank you, Amaury 


      

From tango.society at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 22:53:15 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:53:15 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  help grouping
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340902151952q762ad031ydb863d26d7e78661@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84012.79244.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<cff24c340902151952q762ad031ydb863d26d7e78661@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340902151953p6d575c40v8134896464ef42d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Amaury de Siqueira
<amaurycdsf at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am not familiar at all with different orchestras.  I need some help with existing  schema (models) that would facilitate my understanding of rhythm, mood, style, etc... Even the categories are open to interpretation.   PLEASE I do not want this to be a thread of wrong or right... I just want to know if dancers out there have any particular way to group musical pieces or orchestras together.  Just starting to think about this makes me confused. I think this could be a very positive online community project that would inform dancers and non-dancers alike.  Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. thank you, Amaury


Amaury,

Stephen Brown does a very good job of grouping orchestras by style on
his web site:

http://www.tejastango.com/tango_music.html

This web site was my guide when I first starting DJing.

Ron


From brian at danceoftheheart.com  Mon Feb 16 00:43:06 2009
From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:43:06 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] help grouping
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340902151953p6d575c40v8134896464ef42d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84012.79244.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>	<cff24c340902151952q762ad031ydb863d26d7e78661@mail.gmail.com>
	<cff24c340902151953p6d575c40v8134896464ef42d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601c98ff9$721a6190$564f24b0$@com>


On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Amaury de Siqueira
<amaurycdsf at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am not familiar at all with different orchestras.  I need some help with
existing  schema (models) that would facilitate my understanding of rhythm,
mood, style, etc... 

Ron Weigel wrote:
>>>
Stephen Brown does a very good job of grouping orchestras by style on
his web site:

http://www.tejastango.com/tango_music.html

This web site was my guide when I first starting DJing.
<<<

I would very much agree with Ron about Steve Brown's site.  Having danced to
his DJing several times at memorable events, in my experience his insight
comes through in his live DJing.  When three of us first tried to get
started DJing, we all printed out copies of his relevant web pages when we
had our meetings.

I would add Keith Elshaw's vast labor of tango love at www.totango.net,
where his extensive background in audio engineering adds a lot to many of
his investigations and selections.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, CO USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 12:21:07 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:21:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ragtime Tango clip
Message-ID: <350860.25965.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

A friend sent me this.  The opening suggests that it is the ragtime version of Argentine Tango.  The clip was made for archival purposes and appears to have been reconstructed from an early dance manual(s) from the Library of Congress.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/musdivid/080s.mov




      

From dschmitz007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:28:17 2009
From: dschmitz007 at yahoo.com (Dave Schmitz)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ragtime Tango clip
In-Reply-To: <350860.25965.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <247921.31551.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



For more information, see the index 
 http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html

Under "Ragtime" are three Clips labeled "Argentine Tango".  Clicking a Clip leads to a detailed description including links to videos of all three.  An edited selection from the descriptions is given below.

Richard Powers of Stanford taught Ragtime tango around the USA, including in Denver.  He brings a wealth of knowledge, of history, of evolution of dance, of styles, riveting one's attention all the while.  Richard is also a founder of the tango movement in the USA which we now enjoy.  See this interview:
http://www.tangopulse.net/interviews/richard_powers.htm

Enjoy,
DJ Dave de Denver


################
Video Clip 80
Ragtime Dance: Argentine Tango
Duration: 0:50

Information about Video Playback

Reconstructed by Elizabeth Aldrich. Performed by Cheryl Stafford and Thomas Baird, dancers; Boris Gurevich, piano. Music: "El Choclo" by A.G. Villoldo in The Mark Stern latest society dance folio for piano, New York, Chicago, London, Australia: Jos.W. Stern and Co., 1914.

This performance was based on a description found in the following manual:
Walker, C. The modern dances, (#161), p. 60 (1st Figure), p. 61 (3rd Figure), p. 61-62 (4th Figure) p. 63 (7th Figure)

################
Video Clip 81
Ragtime Dance: Argentine Tango (1st figure-feet only)
Duration: 0:21

Reconstructed by Elizabeth Aldrich. Performed by Cheryl Stafford and Thomas Baird, dancers; Boris Gurevich, piano.

Music: "El Choclo" by A.G. Villoldo in The Mark Stern latest society dance folio for piano, New York, Chicago, London, Australia: Jos.W. Stern and Co.: 1914.

This performance was based on a description found in the following manual:
Walker, C. The modern dances, (#161), p. 60 (1st Figure--feet only)

################
Video Clip 82
Ragtime Dance: Argentine Tango (4th figure-feet only)
Duration: 0:15

Reconstructed by Elizabeth Aldrich. Performed by Cheryl Stafford and Thomas Baird, dancers; Boris Gurevich, piano. Music: "El Choclo" by A.G. Villoldo in The Mark Stern latest society dance folio for piano, New York, Chicago, London, Australia: Jos.W. Stern and Co., 1914.

This performance was based on a description found in the following manual:
Walker, C. The modern dances, (#161), p. 61-62 (4th Figure) 



--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Ragtime Tango clip
> To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 10:21 AM
> A friend sent me this.  The opening suggests that it is the
> ragtime version of Argentine Tango.  The clip was made for
> archival purposes and appears to have been reconstructed
> from an early dance manual(s) from the Library of Congress.
> 
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/musdivid/080s.mov
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 20:05:09 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:05:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Using Arms Eloquently
Message-ID: <328963.44017.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here's a video of David Trenner dancing Milonguero in Portland.
Note: his use of arms that goes with an extremely suave torso and light stepping.
This is as good as it gets.. imo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRRiUiQg9Y&feature=channel_page










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 13:02:39 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:02:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Re:  Ragtime Tango clip
Message-ID: <601080.97697.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Dave, for digging up more info on the clip.

A friend, Steve Pastor, sent me this with a request to send to the list.  It's couple of archived emails concerning a book that Richard Powers referenced on early Argentine Tango.

> It has to do with Richard Powers interpretation of early
> tango, etc
> ?
> http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05895.html
> ?
> http://www.tango-l.com/archives/Tango-L/msg01546.html
> ?
> Steve
> 



      


From tangowien at googlemail.com  Mon Feb 23 09:11:32 2009
From: tangowien at googlemail.com (Klaus Radek)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 01:11:32 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Message-ID: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>

I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?

Klaus

-------------

Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
(Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
wonderful dancer and so much a teacher.  I danced with him in Poland
and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow.  His
floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.

Tess

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Feb 23 09:19:35 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:19:35 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380902230619u76ceae5es5b476f430b2bd254@mail.gmail.com>

Theresia:
1) It's considered bad manners to instruct during a milonga.
2) It's even worse to STOP in the middle of a social dance. Have you
considered how rude it is to the line of dance to just stop and create
a traffic jam.
3) He darted in between dancers.You think that's good? Suppose he
crashed into a couple?

I suspect you haven't dance tango long. There's more to tango than
figures. ETIQUETTE is also important.

Michael
Washington, DC

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on here?
>
> Klaus
>
> -------------
>
> Klaus showed me posts on here and in emails, and I was surprised,
> shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
> wonderful dancer and so much a teacher.  I danced with him in Poland
> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should follow.  His
> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into corners and
> between dancers unexpected. So quick. So you can believe I was shocked
> that people were so unkind to someone so helpful.
>
> Tess
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 09:28:08 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:28:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <764639.31235.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.  

  His
> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy  





      

From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Mon Feb 23 09:51:09 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:51:09 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <764639.31235.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CB63DD4C3F8AF8-B0C-9A0@WEBMAIL-DC08.sysops.aol.com>

I agree with the other writers - esp. because he stopped to tell you were doing something wrong. When I am leading - if my partner moves in a way I didn't expect or intend, I just adapt to it and improvise - for me, that's the fun part of leading.? Even if you were at a practica where his behavior might be appropriate, it doesn't sound that this person has a lot to offer.

barbra

 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com>
To: Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com>; tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked












--- Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:

> and he was so helpful. Each time we danced he would
> tell me what I was
> doing wrongly and stop, even in the middle of a
> social dance and show
> me how I should do things, or explain how I should
> follow.

Sorry, but in the US and BsAs, that would be
considered extremely rude and cause to leave the
floor.  

  His
> floorkraft was amazing. Other dancers just went
> round and round but he
> used all the floor - and was able to dart quick into
> corners and
> between dancers unexpected.

That would be considered quite bad floor craft in the
US and BsAs....at least where I dance.

Nancy  





      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



 


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 09:59:37 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:59:37 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <8CB63DD4C3F8AF8-B0C-9A0@WEBMAIL-DC08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <764639.31235.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8CB63DD4C3F8AF8-B0C-9A0@WEBMAIL-DC08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0902230659o6fd446bave391ae5aab5441b7@mail.gmail.com>

It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
or just dance?"
If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
plan B ready!
Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
dance" is the only option.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From nina at earthnet.net  Mon Feb 23 10:23:11 2009
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:23:11 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0902230659o6fd446bave391ae5aab5441b7@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <764639.31235.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8CB63DD4C3F8AF8-B0C-9A0@WEBMAIL-DC08.sysops.aol.com>
	<ebb7980c0902230659o6fd446bave391ae5aab5441b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20090223081141.01bdf008@earthnet.net>

This discussion reminds me of dancing with milongueros in 
1997-1998,  I do not recall even one time when a man had corrected me 
at a milonga, and I had danced only aout 2-3 years then and was a 
rank beginner.  What they did instead was magic - they lead a step 
again and again, until I got it and learned what I needed to 
do.  There was grace and infinite value in that because they gave me 
knowledge of the dance without using any words.  And they did not 
break the magic of the moment.

To me, there is some distasteful banality to all words, in any 
language that I understand.  Even poetry can't compare with music and 
dance.  Only languages that I do not understand have some 
music.  Maybe the question that each person should ask, when an idea 
pops into his/her head to correct someone during a dance, is whether 
he/she wants to be right or to be happy.  Do we value perfection over 
a feeling?

In all human interactions, and in tango in this case, it might be 
useful to do a quick cost/benefit analysis in any 
situation.  Impulsivity carries a very high cost.

All the best,

Nina





At 07:59 AM 2/23/2009, Sergey Kazachenko wrote:
>It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I
>know the partner is less skilled, I might ask "Do you want to practice
>or just dance?"
>If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just
>dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have
>plan B ready!
>Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where "just
>dance" is the only option.
>
>Sergey
>May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tangopeter at gmx.de  Mon Feb 23 11:00:28 2009
From: tangopeter at gmx.de (Peter Turowski)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:00:28 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
References: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c995cf$f879f1c0$0ab2a8c0@SusanneHiebel>

Klaus Radek wrote:
> I hope is OK for me to let my sister Theresia post some thoughts on
> here? 

Well, if you read the replies to your sarcastic post,
you will see that it is not OK - they took it seriously. =8-0 
Maybe smilies could help... 

LOL
Peter

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 11:45:51 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:45:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked - etiquette
In-Reply-To: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <390032.37414.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I agree with others about etiquette at milongas entailing not correcting people while dancing.  However, it's important to understand why.  Tango is an artistic expression, and one cannot express oneself fully if one is also worrying about whether what she is doing is wrong or not.  If the habit of teaching or being corrected becomes ingrained at a milonga, then one isn't really dancing.  Instead, one is moving in fear and with inhibitions, quite often without even realizing it.

Mistakes are normal.  It's okay to make a mistake.  If someone keeps correcting a beginner every time he or she makes a mistake, then the offender sends the wrong message.  At my milongas, I don't care if the person being corrected wants the correction or not.  If I can easily see it happening on the dance floor, I will inform both parties about the rules of etiquette.  It's that important for the long-term health of the community.  

There was a time when this etiquette was not enforced in my community.  Then one day a visiting instructor, Robert Hauk, came here and spent the weekend teaching and dancing with everyone.  At the end of the weekend, he told me that every single woman he danced with expected to be corrected after dancing with him, even at the milongas.  Unless Theresia want to dance in fear, she should not accept herself to be corrected at a milonga.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From larrynla at juno.com  Mon Feb 23 12:59:21 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:59:21 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Message-ID: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

Uh, guys, Klaus is joking.  His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles


____________________________________________________________
30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its never been easier.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/


From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Mon Feb 23 18:41:03 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:41:03 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>


 


 I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at one level or another by all of us. 


-----Original Message-----
From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked










Uh, guys, Klaus is joking.  His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles


____________________________________________________________
30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its never been easier.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



 


From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 19:07:22 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <540443.67528.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


And the original poster has not recalled the item as a
joke. I am still waiting.  I guess the next time I see
something ridiculous, I will be mean and
sarcastic.....oh, wait..... that would be all the
time, right?

Nancy

--- buffmilonguera at aol.com wrote:

> 
>  
> 
> 
>  I think the reason so many women so easily accepted
> the e-mail as true and serious, is because this
> behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at
> one level or another by all of us. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
> To: tango-L at mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, guys, Klaus is joking.  His "sister's post" is a
> fake.
> 
> Larry de Los Angeles
> 
> 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 30 Seconds can save a lifetime. Get it done. Its
> never been easier.
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsO5FvDuG0cakk2Ttq8W56Pxa2ICxH7FKgH43H8mGP8jRQH7s7OuNC/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 



      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Feb 23 19:18:19 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:18:19 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>

Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.

The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <buffmilonguera at aol.com>
To: <larrynla at juno.com>; <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

 I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been experienced at one level or another by all of us. 


-----Original Message-----
From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Uh, guys, Klaus is joking.  His "sister's post" is a fake.

Larry de Los Angeles


From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 20:17:55 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:17:55 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <55DF2561-872E-4F3A-BF24-8F9FD52F19D1@gmail.com>

I most certainly do NOT offer feedback or advice whilst social dancing  
except compliments or in rare extreme circumstances. Klaus is joking.

In fact it's quite the opposite, teachers are often asked for feedback  
while dancing and that becomes wearing and I remember to not ask those  
partners again for some time...

Food for thought.

Sent from my iPhone

On 24/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:

> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>
> The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.
> Michael
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <buffmilonguera at aol.com>
> To: <larrynla at juno.com>; <tango-L at mit.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
>
> I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as  
> true and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously  
> been experienced at one level or another by all of us.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
> To: tango-L at mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:59 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
> Uh, guys, Klaus is joking.  His "sister's post" is a fake.
>
> Larry de Los Angeles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 20:18:57 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:18:57 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370902231718q20c96421i7f4d5c3e36f7e856@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:
> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>
> The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.

       It appeared to me to be a classic troll just meant to stir up
the hive for the troller's perverted amusement.

       Taking "them" off the list would probably be useless, no doubt
the email id is fake in the first place.  But might as well do it
anyway, I suppose.

Huck

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 20:27:07 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:27:07 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370902231718q20c96421i7f4d5c3e36f7e856@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<ecf43f370902231718q20c96421i7f4d5c3e36f7e856@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE5C32AE-87B1-43E1-864F-9C18454F14D4@gmail.com>

What is really very annoying actually and my students would confirm  
this (not that this world can prove or disprove) is that in MY  
classes, followers are the only ones allowed to offer feedback MOST of  
the time with an "I feel..." type model.

This has been incredibly successful with both leaders and followers as  
I basically, no I DO tell leaders to leave their ego outside.

About time you all moved off me to an actual topic - thanks for the  
heads up those that told me.  :(

Sent from my iPhone

On 24/02/2009, at 12:18 PM, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>  
> wrote:
>> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.
>>
>> The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.
>
>       It appeared to me to be a classic troll just meant to stir up
> the hive for the troller's perverted amusement.
>
>       Taking "them" off the list would probably be useless, no doubt
> the email id is fake in the first place.  But might as well do it
> anyway, I suppose.
>
> Huck
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From railogic at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 20:54:09 2009
From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:54:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370902231718q20c96421i7f4d5c3e36f7e856@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <289377.21152.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?
Dear Huck and?Michael, do we really have to take life so seriously :). May be if you were in 'tango trance' you would'v spotted the "troll' right there:)). May be this?'seriousness' has a blinding effect, it closes some of our eyes ..hmm...
wonder what is the basis for banning.
Cheers, IL
?
?
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:18 PM

       Taking "them" off the list would probably be useless, no doubt
the email id is fake in the first place.  But might as well do it
anyway, I suppose.

Huck

From larrynla at juno.com  Mon Feb 23 22:03:09 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:03:09 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Message-ID: <20090223.190309.4378.4@webmail17.dca.untd.com>

Whether it was a joke or not, Klaus did introduce a good point - and stimulated some thoughtful responses.

Sometimes when I see someone "teaching" I'll ask the lady to dance with me by saying "If I promise not to teach you anything will you dance with me?"  Usually I get a smile in return and a Yes!

But (very) occasionally I get a puzzled frown and the response "I liked it."  Which puzzles ME!


Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com (new short story added)


____________________________________________________________
Looking for insurance?  Click to compare and save big.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsHF61HJa94rwueChbHvAZLzQeXEXPEuEi9MFGHHxO8WuzEJVlTz9W/


From politas at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 04:30:39 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:30:39 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with the heart and the core
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W265B13A1B72A61F2A8580391AE0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W38130BAFCA24C315E30BEB91BB0@phx.gbl>
	<49952A75.2080601@gmail.com>
	<BLU119-W209D28C00E947910268FD791B40@phx.gbl>
	<499B5817.3010506@gmail.com>
	<BLU119-W265B13A1B72A61F2A8580391AE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49A3BE3F.8020607@gmail.com>

David Thorn wrote:
  > A "non-arm" pickup can be executed by my matching her turn rate and
> stepping directly in with an on-body pickup.  Yes, my arms encircle her 
> at the same time, but the required arm pressure is no more than is found 
> in many an orco cortado executed with energy  (Susanna Miller refers to 
> this as "the lady gets to fly" and considers it a good and a fun thing.)

Thank you for proving my point. "The _required_ arm pressure".

> Rock'n'roll dances (which I never do!), yes.   Lindy, sometimes.  Good 
> balboa, no.  Even though in Lindy, and to a lesser extent in Balboa, the 
> connection may be carried through the arms, the lead nearly always comes 
> from the core and NOT the arms.  Even most close embrace tango dancers 
> hold each other with their arms when they are actually dancing (as 
> opposed to practicing) and thus a part of the connection is through the 
> hands and arms.

Which is what I'm saying! The chest is the root of all leads. The arms 
assist in communicating the intention. Personally I quite dislike the 
term "the lead comes from the core". It has no intrinsic meaning in 
everyday language. Everyone interprets it differently. Some people take 
it to the extreme and think it means that the arms are completely 
irrelevant. Others seem to take a metaphysical meaning and use their 
arms a lot while claiming that their lead is "from the heart".

>  > So you use your arms for _maintaining the connection_!
> 
> No.  Maintaining contact.  The "connection" in the sense of any pressure 
> is gone.  It is to let the follow know where I am at so that she can 
> manage her own turn, but NOT so that I can control, guide or direct her 
> turn in the least.

And so we fail again in communicating while using what we think are the 
same terms. I don't consider "connection" to imply control. I think 
connection is what makes it dancing together rather than dancing near 
someone. Although if you are doing it so that she can "manage" her turn, 
isn't that guiding her turn?

> Country-western, salsa, rock and roll, etc - arm leads.  The true swing 
> dances, body leads.

I don't believe there's a simple cut-off. It's not a binary position. 
There's a range of varying amounts of both arm and body usage. Some 
dances use a lot of one and very little of the other, while others use a 
closer mix of the two.

Nuevo seems to use more arms than "traditional" tango (where 
"traditional" means the common forms of social tango which are 
definitely "not nuevo"). That doesn't mean that nuevo is like salsa or 
rock and roll. It's still definitely tango.

Myk,
in Canberra

From politas at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 04:36:34 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:36:34 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <55DF2561-872E-4F3A-BF24-8F9FD52F19D1@gmail.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<55DF2561-872E-4F3A-BF24-8F9FD52F19D1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A3BFA2.3070907@gmail.com>

Noughts wrote:
> I most certainly do NOT offer feedback or advice whilst social dancing  
> except compliments or in rare extreme circumstances. Klaus is joking.

Having shared a dance floor with Damian before, I will confirm that he 
does not behave in the manner described in Klaus' message. I've seen 
such behaviour, but never from any actual teachers.

Myk,
in Canberra

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Tue Feb 24 04:46:10 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:46:10 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <20090224094610.13970@gmx.net>


> Not only women easily accepted it? I believed it as well.

True: some followers also think they need to 'educate' the leaders. 
I remember one follower doing this to me some years ago ('offering' me her comments and teaching in a too offensive way) ... allthough she regulary looks at me at the same milonga I *never* asked her to dance again!

 
> The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.

Why? *no* reason at all! Putting him off the list would be more intollerant than anything else. He made a statement ... and *a lot* of folks on the list are commenting on which means there *is* need for discussion!


Have nice, teaching-free, dances!
Christian






> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <buffmilonguera at aol.com>
> To: <larrynla at juno.com>; <tango-L at mit.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
> 
>  I think the reason so many women so easily accepted the e-mail as true
> and serious, is because this behavior has truly and seriously been
> experienced at one level or another by all of us. 
> 

-- 
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL
f?r nur 17,95 ?/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 24 01:50:22 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Vince_Bagu=B9auskas?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:50:22 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Surviving Tango was RE:  Shocked
In-Reply-To: <8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W18D9D40CDEE9C5F07DD2B8AEAF0@phx.gbl>


Is the etiquette of what to do at a milonga adhered to by even experienced dancers.

Fortunately when I joined my old tango club, they handed out a flyer 
(maybe it is now on the web?) of what to do. But do schools/teachers do this 
or refer their students to a source, before they venture into the world of 
milongas?


Cheers!
 
Vince
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents! Get what you want at ebay. 
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Frover%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Frover%2F1%2F705%2D10129%2D5668%2D323%2F4%3Fid%3D10&_t=763807330&_r=hotmailTAGLINES&_m=EXT

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 08:05:39 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<20090224094610.13970@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

A?'discussion' implies people offering different views. So far everyone 
has agreed that teaching in a milonga is a big no-no. So, where's the 
discussion, other than confirming what we all already know.

I really don't understand why Klaus wasted his time in writing such 
a silly post and wasted our time in reading it and subsquent replies. 
At the very least, I think Klaus owes us an explanation and an 
apology. If it was meant to be a joke; I, for one, just don't 'get it'.

Jack


> From: Christian L?then <christian.luethen at gmx.net>
> 
> > ... and *a lot* of folks on the list are 
> commenting on which means there *is* need for discussion!
> 



      



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Feb 24 10:08:02 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:08:02 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <49A346DA.8000709@ruby.plala.or.jp>
References: <22a636ff0902230611x3f74af80i94c645f44ccfe40d@mail.gmail.com>
	<13176a380902230619u76ceae5es5b476f430b2bd254@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A346DA.8000709@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <13176a380902240708l310220c5i73dc643d7d1dd897@mail.gmail.com>

Astrid:
I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing. That didn't sound
like a joke to me.

Michael

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
> I fin this long discussion of all these American dancers agreeing that
> Theresia does not know tango etiquette , and that they all agree with
> Michael's posting and so on and so on.
> I believe that all of you completely missed the humour in Klaus Radek's
> posting. Having to explain a joke spoils the joke but since noone except
> another European is getting the joke I will take the liberty to advise you:
> please back and read Klaus' whole posting again with the notion that it was
> written tongue in cheek.
> To most Europeans this would be completely obvious and make us grin and
> giggle, but it seems to be lost on you.
>
> Astrid
>
> Michael wrote:
>>
>> ?Theresia: 1) It's considered bad manners to instruct during a
>> ?milonga. 2) ...
>
> etcetc.
>
>> ?I suspect you haven't dance tango long. There's more to tango than
>> ?figures. ETIQUETTE is also important.
>>
>> ?Michael
>
>
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From tango at springssauna.com  Tue Feb 24 13:56:13 2009
From: tango at springssauna.com (Tango Mail)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:56:13 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] "Shocked"
Message-ID: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>

Larry said:
----

Sometimes when I see someone "teaching" I'll ask the lady to dance with me by saying "If I promise not to 
teach you anything will you dance with me?"  Usually I get a smile in return and a Yes!

But (very) occasionally I get a puzzled frown and the response "I liked it."  Which puzzles ME!


Larry de Los Angeles

----

I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; above 
conversation should never take place and if it does it should
be after the couple has started dancing (and at that time in a changed 
way).  Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
My friend D from the next town up North has said that women should 
decline verbal invitations and only accept those made by
using cabeceo (she is a she herself).  Since the men are inherently 
incapable of complying with the old rules the women should
do the policing for the good of us all, IMHO.  Surely doesn't help, 
though, that the milongas are kept darker than my bedroom.
One can hardly make out who is sitting on the other side of the room.

Question:  WHY are the milongas in the US kept so friggin' dark, 
anyway?  Isn't the motion and the dance itself  'romantic' enough?
I don't understand why one needs to have a flashlight with them to the 
milongas.. and this is happening from coast-to-coast in the US.,
even during festivals when one would like to take video and photos, but 
alas, can not.

Ta.

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 14:52:13 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:52:13 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] dark milongas
In-Reply-To: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
Message-ID: <49A44FED.5080802@yahoo.com>

I agree re: many milongas in US being too dark. 

You can't do cabeceo and you can't see the details of the dance. 
The tradition of tango carries with it the notion that you learn by watching the dancers at the milonga.  
I don't think that is outdated or "old school" in any way...it helps us all.

How is it in Europe... ???   or is this just an American thing...?

I don't like super bright light, but you should be able to see across the room to make eye contact for a dance...otherwise the only way you can get dances is by asking (which I think makes it more difficult for everyone, as most dancers are particular with whom they dance....).
Again, these kinds of codes were developed for a reason -- a HUMAN reason, that goes beyond time and cultural boundaries.

With a little work, you can have good lighting with a warm glow that goes with the mood. 
Can an organizer who likes it dark, explain why they prefer it that way?
thanks, 
I.

Tango Mail wrote:
....One can hardly make out who is sitting on the other side of the room.

Question:  WHY are the milongas in the US kept so friggin' dark, 
anyway?  Isn't the motion and the dance itself  'romantic' enough?
I don't understand why one needs to have a flashlight with them to the 
milongas.. and this is happening from coast-to-coast in the US.,
even during festivals when one would like to take video and photos, but 
alas, can not.

Ta.




>
>  
>

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 16:12:40 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <289377.21152.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <993979.99405.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I don't see how slandering someone and straight out telling lies could be seen as a joke.  In my opinion, it's an insult to the purpose of this list.  So far, there has not been a retraction or explanation by Klaus or no apology to Damian that we know of.  Klaus' post was not funny.  It was irresponsible.  There was absolutely no indication of the post being a joke.  And if the joke was in reference to Klaus' earlier posts, then I think he wrongly assumed that people on this list would actually remember (or have even read) his earlier posts.  I'm with Huck and others on banning Klaus or at the very least, moderating him.  

How many times have we heard that the pen is mightier than the sword?  People need to be responsible for their own words, which Klaus seems reluctant to do.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Tue Feb 24 16:30:09 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:30:09 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <993979.99405.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <993979.99405.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090224213009.119420@gmx.net>

As I do not know that teaching-while-social-dancing-person and I do not risk to bump in I did not care to even remember the name! 

but the fact of teaching *during* a milonga is disturbing!!! esp. if a teacher does it! 

Therefore not too much insulting to mee.


Interesting enough to observe just how many (!) now start bashing on the original poster ... somehow this makes me think: are all those also regulary teaching on the floor?  =;-o


[I am fully aware of possible teaching during a milonga: dancing as a couple trying out / practising BUT _without_ any impact to any other social dancers on the floor and agreed by both dancers beforehand.]

Christian [in bad-guy-mode ;-) ]



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
> Von: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
> An: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

> I don't see how slandering someone and straight out telling lies could be
> seen as a joke.  In my opinion, it's an insult to the purpose of this list.
>  So far, there has not been a retraction or explanation by Klaus or no
> apology to Damian that we know of.  Klaus' post was not funny.  It was
> irresponsible.  There was absolutely no indication of the post being a joke.  And
> if the joke was in reference to Klaus' earlier posts, then I think he
> wrongly assumed that people on this list would actually remember (or have even
> read) his earlier posts.  I'm with Huck and others on banning Klaus or at
> the very least, moderating him.  
> 
> How many times have we heard that the pen is mightier than the sword? 
> People need to be responsible for their own words, which Klaus seems reluctant
> to do.
> 
> Trini de Pittsburgh
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

-- 
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 16:43:14 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:43:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
Message-ID: <710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored 
with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where 
the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her?
for the pleasure of the next dance. And, if he has a little charming chat, 
then so much the better. For her, a wink and a nod just isn't what a 
gentleman does if he wants to dance with a lady. And let's not forget 
why?the cabeceo?was invented - to protect the male Argentines' fragile?
ego. 

And, as for the lady searching out a man's eyes in the hope that he 
will invite her to dance, well, to my partner, that's just not how a lady 
behaves. 

Tonight, I'm going to El Beso, where I'll again be confronted by a 
full-wall-length of ladies with fixed smiles, desperatley hoping that 
someone, anyone will ask them to dance. It's just a little sad ...

Jack

?
> From: Tango Mail <tango at springssauna.com>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> 
> I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; ....? 
> Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
> 


      



From sl at stevelittler.com  Tue Feb 24 16:51:32 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:51:32 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] dark milongas
In-Reply-To: <49A44FED.5080802@yahoo.com>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com> <49A44FED.5080802@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49A46BE4.8070708@stevelittler.com>

Excellent question Ilene! And why don't they segregate the men and women
so you can look across at them in the eye?

When I first got started in this dance I read up on all the customs and
my Argentinian instructor talked about the codes in B.A., but nobody
here was doing them. I remember trying to cabaceo and getting no
attention at all. No one else was doing it either. If you wanted to
dance you had to walk over and maybe get a dance or not. Sometimes that
was daunting, especially when I was new. Fortunately most of the ladies
were very encouraging.

Last month I was at a nice dark milonga in Tampa and entertaining some
friends new to Tango and only danced about half the night. When I was
leaving at the very end I saw one of the better dancers also leaving and
went to say hello to her and she was mad at me and said "Why didn't you
ask me to dance tonight?" I had to apologize I honestly hadn't seen her.

So this month I had to go hunt her down and remedy with several tandas
throughout the night. (Not really complaining because she is a great
dancer and very sweet.)

It's also hard sometimes because laides do want to dance with you but
have already promised the next tanda to someone else. So you have to
look around and find someone else or wait till next time. Of course
everyone sees this. Well, I must say it has toughened up my skin for
rejections and I dance well enough now that the better dancers are
usually very happy to dance with me. But it is aggravating to walk all
the way across the floor for nothing when there is a particular dancer
you admire and a great tanda begins to play.

Another part of this lack of cabaceo is that I have to be  very skilled
in  politely interrupting conversations to  ask for a dance without
appearing rude. Ok. I can do that. But you have to have social skills
and be very willing to experience that kind of thing and most guys
probably aren't in the beginning when you are not a very good dancer yet
(or ever).

Also, I think some women can't say "No" to a dance and some guys who
have been dancing badly for years and don't take lessons to improve, get
away with murder, causing collisions, stepping on feet, throwing ganchos
on beginners, etc. (I say that with some risk because the ladies were
very encouraging to me when I was starting. But I also don't dance over
partner's heads, cause collisions or try steps I haven't already
mastered at practica yet in a milonga.)

Steve in Florida

Ilene Marder wrote:
> I agree re: many milongas in US being too dark. 
>
> You can't do cabeceo and you can't see the details of the dance. 
> The tradition of tango carries with it the notion that you learn by watching the dancers at the milonga.  
> I don't think that is outdated or "old school" in any way...it helps us all.
>
> How is it in Europe... ???   or is this just an American thing...?
>
> I don't like super bright light, but you should be able to see across the room to make eye contact for a dance...otherwise the only way you can get dances is by asking (which I think makes it more difficult for everyone, as most dancers are particular with whom they dance....).
> Again, these kinds of codes were developed for a reason -- a HUMAN reason, that goes beyond time and cultural boundaries.
>
> With a little work, you can have good lighting with a warm glow that goes with the mood. 
> Can an organizer who likes it dark, explain why they prefer it that way?
> thanks, 
> I.
>
> Tango Mail wrote:
> ....One can hardly make out who is sitting on the other side of the room.
>
> Question:  WHY are the milongas in the US kept so friggin' dark, 
> anyway?  Isn't the motion and the dance itself  'romantic' enough?
> I don't understand why one needs to have a flashlight with them to the 
> milongas.. and this is happening from coast-to-coast in the US.,
> even during festivals when one would like to take video and photos, but 
> alas, can not.
>
> Ta.
>
>
>
>
>   
>>  
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   


From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 17:00:49 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:00:49 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
In-Reply-To: <710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
	<710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49A46E11.7080807@yahoo.com>

cabeceo was also designed to help the ladies as well as the men.
I hate having to turn down dancers I don't want to dance with when they 
come to my table to ask me to dance, because no, I don't dance with 
everyone that asks.
as for the practices in ballroom...COMPLETELY different set of 
circumstances!
I.

Jack Dylan wrote:

>This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored 
>with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where 
>the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her 
>for the pleasure of the next dance. And, if he has a little charming chat, 
>then so much the better. For her, a wink and a nod just isn't what a 
>gentleman does if he wants to dance with a lady. And let's not forget 
>why the cabeceo was invented - to protect the male Argentines' fragile 
>ego. 
>
>And, as for the lady searching out a man's eyes in the hope that he 
>will invite her to dance, well, to my partner, that's just not how a lady 
>behaves. 
>
>Tonight, I'm going to El Beso, where I'll again be confronted by a 
>full-wall-length of ladies with fixed smiles, desperatley hoping that 
>someone, anyone will ask them to dance. It's just a little sad ...
>
>Jack
>
> 
>  
>
>>From: Tango Mail <tango at springssauna.com>
>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>>
>>I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally; ....  
>>Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>      
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Feb 24 19:40:05 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:40:05 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Message-ID: <49A49365.8070402@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:
> shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
... rest of much-discussed post deleted.

"Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:
> The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.

(I assume the missing word was "kick" or "throw" ...). I was puzzled at 
that, since the reason appeared to be (echoed by a few others) his 
"crime" of the use of irony (as they used to call it), without using a 
smiley (also as they used to call it before it became "emoticon"). I'd 
be more likely to defend it as a fast-fading art form (perhaps even in 
the same category as the cabeceo).

But he (Michael) later clarified:
> I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
> name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing.

And that indeed does justify a slap on the wrist, more so because Mr. 
Noughts (reports of whose departure from Tango-L seem to have been 
greatly exaggerated) appears to teach professionally, and this may be a 
back-door attempt at mud-slinging rivalry. Please consider your wrist 
slapped--no, not you Damian, but Klaus--but keep up the irony, if you 
can do without maligning others, and it may help to include a smiley, 
even if it takes away half the fun ... oops almost forgot to include a :-).

So lighten up everybody, study up on rhetorical devices (I'll study up 
on run-on sentences and their avoidance), make sure to include some 
Tango content in each of your posts (administrator is exempt, though 
hey, I did mention "cabeceo" ...), and PLEASE DELETE ALL THE PREVIOUS 
TRAILING THREAD IN YOUR REPLIES (oops, sorry, didn't mean to shout).

Shahrukh

From sherpal1 at aol.com  Tue Feb 24 19:47:52 2009
From: sherpal1 at aol.com (sherpal1@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:47:52 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] shock
Message-ID: <8CB64F9D2C1C318-9D8-1C64@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>

oh my god, get over this:? i have never seen so many postings about such an insignificant matter....move on, get a life....say something important. sherrie

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 22:05:41 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:05:41 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
In-Reply-To: <710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
	<710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370902241905u14433006tf28719f306a5ecc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored
> with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where
> the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her
> for the pleasure of the next dance.

Thanks Jack, if I ever decide to dance ballroom socially, I'll know what to do.

Huck

From sl at stevelittler.com  Tue Feb 24 22:30:19 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:30:19 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
In-Reply-To: <710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
	<710089.69234.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49A4BB4B.5000407@stevelittler.com>

Yes, but in ballroom the woman doesn't have to hug up to a stranger in 
an intimate fashion, heart-to-heart, cheek-to-cheek. She usually stands 
apart and looks away from him.

(It didn't take me long to quit ballroom after I found Tango.)

Steve

Jack Dylan wrote:
> This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone in enamored 
> with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many years, where 
> the tradition is that the man comes to her table and politely asks her 
> for the pleasure of the next dance.

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Feb 24 22:59:46 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:59:46 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] dark milongas
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com> <49A44FED.5080802@yahoo.com>
	<49A46BE4.8070708@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <D1C437F2D1CA4CC69CCA9067302BBB4D@michaelditkoff>

I think the dark milongas comes from ballroom where ambiance is so 
important. I don't like dark ballrooms nor milongas. I used cabeceo a lot 
the first year I went to the Atlanta tango festival. It didn't work because 
it was too dark so I didn't dance a lot. The following year the organizers 
had a session on milonga etiquette where cabeceo was discussed. A lot of the 
women just looked forward into the dance floor and not around when not 
dancing. Nevermind the custom, I had to get into their range of vision 
otherwise I wasn't going to dance. As flight attendants say before take off 
"The closest exit may be behind you." The same thing applies to milongas. 
The closest partner may be behind you but few look.

For cabeceo to work, milongas have to be well lite and has to be practiced 
by 80% of the attendees or it doesn't work. I'll start using cabeceo  as 
Plan A. If it doesn't work because of insufficient light or the women aren't 
using it, I'll go to Plan B (the ballroom "direct" approach). Plan C is to 
bring a flare gun.

The bottom line is "it takes two to tango." Asking for and accepting a tanda 
is only going to work with active effort on both genders. I don't like 
interrupting a conversation for a dance. Maybe the women would rather talk 
than dance.

4 weeks to the Atlanta Tango Festival and two weeks after that to BA (where 
I have to use cabeceo) and the milongas are fully illuminated, I've been 
told.

Michael
Washington, DC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Littler" <sl at stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] dark milongas


> Excellent question Ilene! And why don't they segregate the men and women
> so you can look across at them in the eye?
>
>
> Another part of this lack of cabaceo is that I have to be  very skilled
in  politely interrupting conversations to  ask for a dance without
appearing rude.
>
> Also, I think some women can't say "No" to a dance and some guys who
> have been dancing badly for years and don't take lessons to improve, get
> away with murder, causing collisions, stepping on feet, throwing ganchos
> on beginners, etc. 


From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Wed Feb 25 02:51:51 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:51:51 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] chear up - Re: Shocked
In-Reply-To: <49A49365.8070402@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <49A49365.8070402@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <20090225075151.35830@gmx.net>

Ha, Shahrukh,

brilliant posting. And of your best ever in your function as moderator of the list! Congrats! 


Here's a little link I received this morning which hopefully makes you all chear up again (on tango matters!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=6QaSJAbc2mg


Enjoy!
Christian


.



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:40:05 -0200
> Von: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com>
> An: tango-l at mit.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked

> Klaus Radek <tangowien at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > shocked a little even, to see how unrespectful people were to Damian
> > (Nougts) - even to making him leave here!. I can tell you he is a
> ... rest of much-discussed post deleted.
> 
> "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:
> > The moderator should  the originator and "his sister" off the list.
> 
> (I assume the missing word was "kick" or "throw" ...). I was puzzled at 
> that, since the reason appeared to be (echoed by a few others) his 
> "crime" of the use of irony (as they used to call it), without using a 
> smiley (also as they used to call it before it became "emoticon"). I'd 
> be more likely to defend it as a fast-fading art form (perhaps even in 
> the same category as the cabeceo).
> 
> But he (Michael) later clarified:
> > I thnk you're missing an important point. Klaus named a dancer by
> > name, Damian (Noughts), and described his dancing.
> 
> And that indeed does justify a slap on the wrist, more so because Mr. 
> Noughts (reports of whose departure from Tango-L seem to have been 
> greatly exaggerated) appears to teach professionally, and this may be a 
> back-door attempt at mud-slinging rivalry. Please consider your wrist 
> slapped--no, not you Damian, but Klaus--but keep up the irony, if you 
> can do without maligning others, and it may help to include a smiley, 
> even if it takes away half the fun ... oops almost forgot to include a
> :-).
> 
> So lighten up everybody, study up on rhetorical devices (I'll study up 
> on run-on sentences and their avoidance), make sure to include some 
> Tango content in each of your posts (administrator is exempt, though 
> hey, I did mention "cabeceo" ...), and PLEASE DELETE ALL THE PREVIOUS 
> TRAILING THREAD IN YOUR REPLIES (oops, sorry, didn't mean to shout).
> 
> Shahrukh
> _______________________________________________

-- 



.


Computer Bild Tarifsieger! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL
f?r nur 17,95 ?/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a

From musettefan at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 17:04:17 2009
From: musettefan at yahoo.com (musette fan)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:04:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo [was "Shocked"]
In-Reply-To: <49A4BB4B.5000407@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <281150.29757.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


And in ballroom the woman does not have to dance 3 songs in a row with each man who asks.


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com> wrote:

> Yes, but in ballroom the woman doesn't have to hug up to a stranger in an intimate fashion, heart-to-heart, cheek-to-cheek. She
> usually stands apart and looks away from him. 
> 
> (It didn't take me long to quit ballroom after I found Tango.)
> 
> Steve
> 
> Jack Dylan wrote:
> > This might come as a surprise to many but not everyone
> in enamored with the cabeceo. My partner danced Ballroom for many
> years, where the tradition is that the man comes to her table and
> politely asks her for the pleasure of the next dance.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 19:18:23 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:18:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<20090224094610.13970@gmx.net> 
	<327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W7AA5176A110B1FF28BEDFA9AD0@phx.gbl>


OK, here's a contrary opinion:
I disagree with the hard rule about teaching at milongas. I believe the "rule" that should be focused on is to be respectful of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga. "Teaching" often involves stopping in place, which disrupts LOD, and it usually includes loud talking, which distracts other dancers from their enjoyment of the music. If you can "teach" without disrupting other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.

              J



_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009

From garybarn at ozemail.com.au  Wed Feb 25 21:09:20 2009
From: garybarn at ozemail.com.au (Gary Barnes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:09:20 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W7AA5176A110B1FF28BEDFA9AD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<20090224094610.13970@gmx.net>
	<327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<BLU120-W7AA5176A110B1FF28BEDFA9AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E0435606-B8B5-4321-B09F-A1F8CC9A4282@ozemail.com.au>

If you are not verbally explaining, and not stopping and  
demonstrating, then you are probably not "teaching" anyway, in the  
sense that most people seem to mean when they ask people not to do it  
on the dance floor. Your partner may well be learning, but that's a  
whole other ball game.  I would think of my actions in this context  
perhaps as "helping".  I've certainly been helped by many women on  
the dance floor, without them saying a word, and have learnt a lot  
from that.

GB

On 26/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, Jay Rabe apparently wrote, among other  
things:

> I believe the "rule" that should be focused on is to be respectful  
> of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga. "Teaching"  
> often involves stopping in place, which disrupts LOD, and it  
> usually includes loud talking, which distracts other dancers from  
> their enjoyment of the music. If you can "teach" without disrupting  
> other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.
>

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 11:33:58 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:33:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<20090224094610.13970@gmx.net>
	<327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<BLU120-W7AA5176A110B1FF28BEDFA9AD0@phx.gbl>
	<E0435606-B8B5-4321-B09F-A1F8CC9A4282@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <964650.37602.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I think Jay is going to have to explain a lot more about the form of teaching 
in a milonga that he thinks is acceptable. IMO, it's not just about disrupting 
the other dancers; its also about the fact that most ladies truly hate it. I also 
consider it disrespectful to the lady - unless she actually asks for assistance. 
And, even then, IMO, the answer should be - 'another time, lets just dance'.

Jack



> From: Gary Barnes <garybarn at ozemail.com.au>
> 
> If you are not verbally explaining, and not stopping and? 
> demonstrating, then you are probably not "teaching" anyway, in the? 
> sense that most people seem to mean when they ask people not to do it? 
> on the dance floor.? 
> 
> On 26/02/2009, at 11:18 AM, Jay Rabe apparently wrote, among other? 
> things:
> 
> >? If you can "teach" without disrupting? 
> > other dancers in these two ways, I see no problem with it.
> >



      



From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Feb 26 12:09:47 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:09:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The Lead Pyramid
Message-ID: <20090226.090947.13486.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

A lot of discussions in forums such as this one involve taking sensible 
statements to ridiculous extremes.  For instance, "Don't lead with 
hands too much" becomes "Don't lead with hands AT ALL."  It's all part 
of the human tendency to convert the rich rainbow complexity of reality 
to barren black-and-white oversimplification.

Leading and following uses a hierarchy of requests and replies to those 
requests.  The layers of requests/replies might be arranged in a 
pyramid.  At the base would be leads by the torso, the part of the body 
that includes the center of gravity.  We use this to request movement 
in straight lines, forward and back, side to side, and diagonals.  
Maybe 60-80 percent of all leads are at this level, so it would be the 
widest part of a diagram of leads.

Above this is leads that use the shoulders.  These are requests to turn 
to one side or the other.  Curving our path around the floor are at 
this level.  Ocho leads are too.  So are molinete leads.  Shoulder 
leads are in addition to torso leads.  They modify torso leads.  They 
are used less frequently than torso leads and so would be a narrower 
layer of the lead pyramid diagram.

Next come the less frequent arm leads, and the even rarer hand leads.  
Each level of lead requests are less often needed, and each 
progressively refines the lower level.

So one rule resulting from the pyramid of leads is "Never use hands to 
lead a movement if you can use arms (or shoulders, or the torso) to do 
it."  This does not mean hands are never needed.

One example where hands are essential is when we lead a parada in the 
middle of a back ocho.  Here we have to separate our torsos at the end 
of the movement.  One hand is used as a brake on the back of our 
partner, the other to block them from moving forward.  Our two hands 
oppose each other, pushing gently but firmly in opposite directions to 
freeze our partner in place with legs apart and weight on both feet.

Often after a parada we will then go into another movement.  We might, 
for instance, sandwich our partner's front foot with ours.  Or step 
across her front foot and use our free foot to sweep her front foot.  
Or use any number of leads that use a foot, calf, or thigh against her 
foot, calf, or thigh.

Which brings us to the fact that in tango, unlike any other dance I can 
think of offhand, we use not only upper-body leads but also lower-body 
leads as well.  But that's another subject.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com - site for Immortal Shapechanger series



____________________________________________________________
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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 13:24:39 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:24:39 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <964650.37602.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20090223.095921.14048.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<8CB642752C89F5B-14A0-1223@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
	<E34376865C7D430AB350105C98A8FF67@michaelditkoff>
	<20090224094610.13970@gmx.net>
	<327569.49389.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<BLU120-W7AA5176A110B1FF28BEDFA9AD0@phx.gbl>
	<E0435606-B8B5-4321-B09F-A1F8CC9A4282@ozemail.com.au> 
	<964650.37602.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W1023E3313606E74116E45AA9AD0@phx.gbl>


One example: I was dancing with a relatively new follower, in close-embrace, and she was missing the cross. As is usually the case, she recognized it after the fact, because she felt our body positions out of alignment. As we were dancing, she asked, "I missed the cross, didn't I?" I said yes, and suggested she bend her standing knee a bit more and take slightly bigger back steps, which separates our feet a bit more and keeps her weight more forward, making the cross more likely as opposed to a back step when in the #4 position. You can call this teaching or coaching or whatever, but we didn't disrupt anyone, and she clearly asked for the advice. 

         J



_________________________________________________________________
It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. 
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From brick at fastpack.com  Thu Feb 26 15:55:33 2009
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:55:33 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
Message-ID: <ca2c2380902261255u189727a6ud7f86b9348fdafd2@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:18:23 +0000
> From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> OK, here's a contrary opinion:
> I disagree with the hard rule about teaching at milongas. I believe the "rule" that should
> be focused on is to be respectful of and avoid disrupting other dancers at a milonga.

I believe that Jay has hit the nail on the head. The whole point of
all the codes is to try to encourage an environment that is pleasant
for everyone involved.

The teaching prohibition discourages the problem of unwanted advice
(often bad) being forced upon people (usually followers) and the
problem of couples blocking traffic in the ronda, and of loud
conversation disrupting neighbors. It is not difficult to image a
situation where some instruction might be given where none of the
above problems occur. Say, two good friends, one new to tango, quietly
working in a corner of a large dance floor at the beginning of a
milonga, after the lesson.

The cabeceo allows both men, and women more control over picking
partners. The same with the rule about women verbally asking men. Does
this mean that it is wrong for me to verbally ask a friend next to me
when a Biagi tanda starts, with whom I have enjoyed many Biagi tandas?
Most certainly not.

The same thing with open embrace dancers mixing with close embrace
dancers. If environment is such (large floor, sparse attendance) that
dancers can do their double-flying-gancho-backflips without disrupting
neighbors, and their skill level is high enough that they are actually
able do it without disrupting neighbors, is there a problem?

I think the problems occur because the people without the experience,
skill or care, are the ones who verbally ask women who don't want to
dance with them, teach them on the floor, and do big dramatic
movements while they kick and run into their neighbors.

And it takes all 3: experience, skill & care. I've seen some very
skilled dancers (often teachers) not care enough about their
neighbors, do their big dramatic movements and bump, kick or simply
scare them.

I think I heard it best put at the San Francisco Tango Exchange last year

1) Respect your partner
2) Respect yourself
3) Respect the music
4) Respect the people around you.

Can't we all just get along?

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 17:00:11 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:00:11 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] The Lead Pyramid
In-Reply-To: <20090226.090947.13486.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090226.090947.13486.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902261400h7897e3f6kcb95c0e444f39f90@mail.gmail.com>

Larry - that is a perfect example of what never to do.  You never need
to stop a lady with your hand for a parada mid weight or not.  If the
lady is following, she will maintain her distance and that is all she
needs.  The only time I would ever use my hand is to stop an
accident....

Does it mean that it's wrong - no, this was taught for years and years
so must be valid.  It's just that it can easily be done without the
hand in the middle of the back and therefore create a smoother,
gentler lead

Damian.

"One example where hands are essential is when we lead a parada in the
middle of a back ocho.  Here we have to separate our torsos at the end
of the movement.  One hand is used as a brake on the back of our
partner, the other to block them from moving forward.  Our two hands
oppose each other, pushing gently but firmly in opposite directions to
freeze our partner in place with legs apart and weight on both feet."

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 18:00:08 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:00:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W1023E3313606E74116E45AA9AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:

> As we were
> dancing, she asked, "I missed the cross, didn't
> I?" I said yes, and suggested she bend her standing
> knee a bit more and take slightly bigger back steps, which
> separates our feet a bit more and keeps her weight more
> forward, making the cross more likely as opposed to a back
> step when in the #4 position. 

So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the night.  This is why "helping" like this at a milonga is a bad idea.  Since she's a beginner, she'll now get it into her head that it's okay to teach or be taught at a milonga.  Forget about listening to the music or her partner.  

Unless someone is in physical pain, there's no reason to be teaching on the dance floor, even if someone has asked.  A simple answer to her question is, "Well, perhaps I didn't lead it clearly enough for you, but don't worry about it.  I still enjoyed dancing with you.  Let's just have fun."

Trini de Pittburgh




      

From brian at danceoftheheart.com  Thu Feb 26 18:58:33 2009
From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:58:33 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902261400h7897e3f6kcb95c0e444f39f90@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090226.090947.13486.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<cb8208d0902261400h7897e3f6kcb95c0e444f39f90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c9986e$22102e00$66308a00$@com>

Dear Larry, Damian, et al.

Damian wrote:
>>> ...You never *NEED* (emphasis added - Ed.) to stop a lady with your hand
for a parada mid weight or not...Does it mean that it's wrong - no, this was
taught for years and years so must be valid.  It's just that it *CAN EASILY
BE DONE* (emphasis added - Ed.) without the hand in the middle of the back
and therefore create a smoother, gentler lead
<<<

Damian, I very much appreciate the distinction you're drawing between "what
is right/wrong" and "what is necessary" for leaders to do, or to think
about, or to focus on, when trying to communicate through the "wiring" of
the lead/follow "circuit".

Sometimes in class we point out that I can get my follower to "do" something
by sticking out my tongue at her, if we have a prior conscious intellectual
agreement that me sticking out my tongue means she'll consciously "do" a
gancho/boleo/front cross step/whatever.  In most of the conversations about
"leading with xxx", or "how to lead xxx", this stick-out-the-tongue maneuver
qualifies as a successful (albeit unconventional) choice of a lead/follow
conversational element.  What apparently keeps it from being a POPULAR
choice is:
  1) this particular successful form involves a lot of things which aren't
necessary, and
  2) it has no historical validity as a commonly observed behavior in Buenos
Aires tango.

But focusing solely on 2), we must return to the effort to figure out the
fundamental nature of "lead/follow" by observing others' behavior.  But
there are so many aspects of tango communication that are NOT apparent to
observers!  Often, these aspects are not visible in conscious awareness to
the partners themselves!  While most of us probably agree that we would like
to maintain continuity in general observable form of movements (although
perhaps not worshipful imitation thereof) with the traditional choices of
tango's originators and their descendants, we often hear tango teachers
abstracting their observations of a particular move into interpretations of
what is *necessary* for the communication to succeed. This is done often by
very talented natural dancers of long traditional experience whose
considerable dance skills are not matched by an equivalent depth of insight
that would enable them to explain HOW they do what they do in a teaching
setting.  Like the tongue-sticking-out example, this process of
abstraction-from-observation can succeed on its own terms in class settings,
but involves lots of confusion between what is sufficient (due to specific
prior agreement learned in class) and what is the "minimum necessary" (due
to the predictable intrinsic qualities of two partners pursuing a shared
state of awareness from two polarized perspectives).

I appreciate that you took the time to point out that it is not "wrong" to
follow the pedagogical ideas developed in many cases by talented dancers who
genuinely sought to pass on their experience to highly motivated learners.
But I support your apparent interest in a closer investigation of what is
actually the "minimum lead necessary" to communicate across the lead/follow
boundary.  This inquiry has the possibility to lead us into very fruitful
tango explorations without hamstringing our "tango conceptual framework"
with unnecessarily cumbersome and misleading ideas about how all this
lead/follow stuff actually works.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 19:32:48 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:32:48 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <BLU120-W1023E3313606E74116E45AA9AD0@phx.gbl>
	<709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W12C75528397E2E6D71CCC9A9AA0@phx.gbl>


Seems like there's a confusion between two separate issues. 

The first issue is the supposed prohibition
against teaching at milongas. I thought I made my point clear, that avoiding disturbing other dancers is the primary responsibility, and
any teaching/coaching you can do that doesn't disturb others is OK IMO.
That said, it's obvious that it's a thin line, and you can't do very much,
maybe 5-10 seconds of explanation, without risking violation of the primary rule, but as
always, it's very situational, depending mostly on how crowded the
floor is, i.e. how close other dancers are to you that might be bothered
by talking. What I'm saying is that teaching at milongas is not a bad thing per se, but it's very difficult to do very much without violating the Primary rule, that being not disturbing other dancers.


Trini I applaud your being a champion to the timid beginners who are uncomfortably set upon by self-proclaimed experts. I assure you I'm as concerned as you are about building the community and retaining new dancers. This however is a completley separate issue from the first one, and I think you can risk over-generalizing. Lots of new followers are anxious to learn whatever they can from whoever they can. It's not too different from a common festival phenomenon, during which you take classes with lots of different teachers and often get flatly contradictory advice from them. It's up to the student to sort out what works for them, what's really foundational technique and what are merely stylistic differences. 

I completely agree that making a new dancer uncomfortable with criticism is abhorrent. And that's certainly not what I was doing, and frankly, since you weren't there, you're hardly in a position to say otherwise. In the case in point, I assure you I enjoyed my dance with her, and I let her know it, and her enthusiasm to dance with me at subsequent events tells me that she enjoyed it too. Isn't that the bottom line?

       J
  



_________________________________________________________________
It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 19:44:25 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:44:25 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <000001c9986e$22102e00$66308a00$@com>
References: <20090226.090947.13486.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<cb8208d0902261400h7897e3f6kcb95c0e444f39f90@mail.gmail.com> 
	<000001c9986e$22102e00$66308a00$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W305AA3D69C101DAB1CECF1A9AA0@phx.gbl>


On the question of what's the minimum amount of hand pressure necessary (if any) to lead a certain step:

Try leading the step without an embrace, that is, with no arm/hand/chest contact. You'll quickly see where a gentle pressure with the hand can be especially helpful, with of course the caveat that it must be gentle enough to not be uncomfortable. I think check steps are a better example than the parada/pasada. Check steps are almost impossible to lead quickly in open embrace without some slight "braking" pressure with the hand.

    J




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Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 20:22:53 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:22:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W305AA3D69C101DAB1CECF1A9AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:

 think check steps are a better example than the
> parada/pasada. Check steps are almost impossible to
> lead quickly in open embrace without some slight
> "braking" pressure with the hand.


What is a check step in tango?   I could only find
this check step in mambo  

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/19760_mambo-dance-check-man.htm

  Altho the guy in the demo makes it look more like
the wee wee dance little kids do.  Certainly not the
mambo step I was taught in my ballroom days.

  

Nancy


      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 20:43:28 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:43:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
References: <709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <385118.37343.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I agree with Trini. My response would probably have been ...."don't worry about 
it; let's just try again."? Later, when leading the cross again, I would make the 
lead very clear so that I'm sure she'd follow correctly.. Then I could say something 
like ... "OK, no problem". This kind of thing happens all the time and the girl is 
always very happy with the outcome.

As for Jay's advice to the girl, during a milonga,?to 'bend the knees more and 
take bigger backward steps', that's very fundamental teaching and, IMO,?definitely 
shouldn't be done at a milonga. However, LEADING the girl to do it would be a 
completely?different thing and would be very acceptable, IMO.

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the 
> night.? This is why "helping" like this at a milonga is a bad idea.? Since she's 
> a beginner, she'll now get it into her head that it's okay to teach or be taught 
> at a milonga.? Forget about listening to the music or her partner.? 
> 



      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 20:56:32 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 01:56:32 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <BLU120-W305AA3D69C101DAB1CECF1A9AA0@phx.gbl>
	<384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W1132FAFA8B580944CFBAFAA9AA0@phx.gbl>


Nancy wrote: 
> What is a check step in tango?   I could only find
> this check step in mambo  


Sometimes they're called rock steps. They are basically the same as the
mambo step, that is, you transfer a portion of your weight on eg. a
forward left step, then rock your weight back to your right. They're
the first part of a typical ocho cortado. They're also often used to make a
1/4 turn and are especially useful in tight spaces for navigation
adjustments.





            J




_________________________________________________________________
It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. 
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 21:08:05 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:08:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
References: <384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <926923.33318.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I think 'Rebound' is the modern terminology and 'Rock-step' 
is the older terminology. Also called an?'Amague' or 'fake'.

Jack



> From: NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> What is a check step in tango?? 
> > 



      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 21:20:59 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:20:59 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <926923.33318.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<926923.33318.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W279E7ED398401684A4FF0A9AA0@phx.gbl>


per Jack: Amague?

I thought an amague was like a front boleo, with (usually) the woman lifting her free leg and wrapping it momentarily around/in front of her standing leg.

    J


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009

From kiaora50 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 15:08:59 2009
From: kiaora50 at yahoo.com (Glenn)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:08:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
In-Reply-To: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com>
Message-ID: <733520.12978.qm@web111006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I agree that the cabeceo is preferable, but I disagree that it should be enforced.  And women are just as bad as men when it comes to using the cabeceo, "it takes two to cabeceo" ;-) and I think most people (men or woemen) would rather dance than sit on the side as a martyr to the cabeceo.

There are many reasons the cabeceo is not used often:

The biggest problem is the instructors don't spend enough time teaching it.  

Dark venues could be a problem, but I haven't been to many that were too dark for people with normal eyesight.  (Many newer cameras have low light settings, if you must take pictures)

Eyesight is a problem for some who cannot see another person initiating a cabeceo from more than a few feet.

Venue layout can be a big problem.  It is sometimes impossible to get within the other persons field of cabavision.

etc.

Then there are the times when you see someone leaving the dance floor who is obviously distressed from their last partner (most often a newer dancer who may be ready to throw in the towel on tango) and may be oblivious to any cabeceo but would benefit from a considerate verbal request to dance from a caring individual.

Again, to be clear, the cabeceo should be the preferred method of asking for and accepting a dance, but there are valid exceptions.

Glenn


> I wish more people would abandon asking to dance verbally;
> above 
> conversation should never take place and if it does it
> should
> be after the couple has started dancing (and at that time
> in a changed 
> way).  Cabeceo needs to practiced more and enforced, too.
> My friend D from the next town up North has said that women
> should 
> decline verbal invitations and only accept those made by
> using cabeceo (she is a she herself).  Since the men are
> inherently 
> incapable of complying with the old rules the women should
> do the policing for the good of us all, IMHO.  Surely
> doesn't help, 
> though, that the milongas are kept darker than my bedroom.
> One can hardly make out who is sitting on the other side of
> the room.
> 
> Question:  WHY are the milongas in the US kept so
> friggin' dark, 
> anyway?  Isn't the motion and the dance itself 
> 'romantic' enough?
> I don't understand why one needs to have a flashlight
> with them to the 
> milongas.. and this is happening from coast-to-coast in the
> US.,
> even during festivals when one would like to take video and
> photos, but 
> alas, can not.
> 
> Ta.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      


From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Thu Feb 26 22:43:08 2009
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:43:08 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] A Fake Amague !!
Message-ID: <49A7614C.000005.03180@OEM-COMPUTER>

My understanding of amague (fake):
It is when the man takes a step to one side of the woman, but quickly
retracts to go to the other side (or elswhere). 
 
 So this is a fake step. Not a rock step etc., where both are 'rockin''. 
 
This explanation is from the teacher Pablo Pugliese, who says it comes from
soccer (popular in Argentina?) where the player tricks the opponent with a 
fake' step only to dart elswhere. 
 
Thanks, Mel. NZ.
 
And thanks to Sergio for the link to the great spaghetti monster.

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 22:54:01 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:54:01 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <BLU120-W305AA3D69C101DAB1CECF1A9AA0@phx.gbl>
	<384667.75136.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0902261954y7f20d1d9k5bfd98614ba58b6d@mail.gmail.com>

Well,

Funny enough, but I actually had some requests to clarify the need for
using hands on this as well.

Well, I don't use them, my partner doesn't need me to use them because
as a partnership, I ask her to do things, she accepts and does them.
I don't need to place my hand on her back to stop her in a stop, or a
check step - more oft' called a rebound step or rock step if you have
a ballroom/rock'n'roll background.? My partner knows that when I
pause, it is for her, her to decorate at the appropriate time and that
my role is then to follow until she allows me to continue to ask her
to dance with me...  To stop her, either I just straighten my legs and
stand, becoming still and calm, or I lower even further....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkcTpqa1XME&feature=channel

If I am leading and my partner is following and her role is to
maintain the distance between us unless I choose to open or close it
(art of leading), then she should maintain the distance apart from me
not necessitating the need to use my hand to 'stop' her.? It is a
simple change of direction.? Do we need to use our arms/hands to
rotate her for a pivot - I hope not, but it certainly was done and
taught 'many' years ago.? Many of those teachers that used to teach
that, now - don't.  I wonder why that is....

Damian


From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 05:47:48 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:47:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <926923.33318.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <875018.18214.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think 'Rebound' is the modern terminology and
> 'Rock-step' 
> is the older terminology. Also called an?'Amague'
> or 'fake'.

A rebound is something different and has more elasticity, like a rubber band.  An amague is an ornament.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      


From kristinaelo at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 05:50:18 2009
From: kristinaelo at gmail.com (Kristina Bohm)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:50:18 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
Message-ID: <f68bea000902260250s2a9ee430w6f98136b9ce09c34@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

It's time to change the discussion to another shocking subject!

I apologize if this has been discussed earlier, since I am relatively new on
this list. But not new to tango and I am having an issue with something that
has been lately bothering me a bit (or a lot?). I would like to get other
opinions...

What do you think of "close embrance" after a guy has been dancing several
hours and is totally soaked in his sweat?... I, personally love both, close
and open embrace. But recently I had to say 'no' to a great dancer whom I
smelled already from 5 meters approaching me. (and yes, I smiled and said
that I was tired...:) )
Another dancer, also at the end of milonga, after several open embrace
tangos, told me that "he prefers close embrace" and almost forced me to the
close position.

Well, it does apply for women also, but guys, at least seem to have more
choice what embrace to lead.

I remeber one gentelman, who had a different shirt for every partner he
danced with. Maybe it was little bit too extreme, but for sure, tangos felt
like heaven with him!

Any opinions, suggestions???

Best greetings
Kris

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 06:45:02 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:45:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How wide is the base of "The Lead Pyramid"?
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0902261954y7f20d1d9k5bfd98614ba58b6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <242679.56010.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


"Reining a wild horse" is what Daniel Trenner describes when he talks about leading and following.  The woman goes and the man stops her.  She dances.  He puts himself in her dance.  Hence, the use of hands to stop.  

There's value to this way of thinking.  I don't know how many times, I've wished my partners (when I lead) would just friggin' go and not hesitate as if they're afraid of making a mistake.  If I'm lead by a good dancer, I can feel him capture my energy for a dead stop when he wants it.  To me his hands feel like nothing, but he has to be using them when I'm going with a lot of energy to move.  I don't consider it following a stop.  My intention is go go go.  But then suddenly, he stops me.  And I'm wondering at times, how the heck did he do that?  Where did all that energy go?  I can tell when it goes into the floor.  I don't feel stressed.  Where did the energy go?  He had to have absorbed it through his hands.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 07:00:52 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:00:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <f68bea000902260250s2a9ee430w6f98136b9ce09c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <358663.58844.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Kristina Bohm <kristinaelo at gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you think of "close embrance" after a guy
> has been dancing several hours and is totally soaked in his sweat?... I, personally love both, close and open embrace. But recently I had to say 'no' to a great dancer whom I smelled already from 5 meters approaching me. (and yes, I smiled and said that I was tired...:) )

Good answer.  By the way, anyone who has to work so hard that he sweats that much, might not be such a great dancer.  

> Another dancer, also at the end of milonga, after several
> open embrace
> tangos, told me that "he prefers close embrace"
> and almost forced me to the
> close position.

I would have made an excuse and left in the middle of a tanda if someone tried that with me and I wanted to dance with him another time.  Otherwise, I would have just thanked him and left him on the dance floor.  If, however, you asked him to dance and you knew that he preferred close-embrace, then that's a different story.


> I remeber one gentelman, who had a different shirt for
> every partner he danced with. Maybe it was little bit too extreme, but for sure, tangos felt like heaven with him!
> 


There's a lot of fish in the ocean.  Don't sweat the guys who don't have the decency to present themselves nicely to you.  Think the next guy asking you to dance will enjoy being soaked by you soaked by someone else?


Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 27 11:41:49 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:41:49 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <f68bea000902260250s2a9ee430w6f98136b9ce09c34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f68bea000902260250s2a9ee430w6f98136b9ce09c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W51CE3FD93D1C6B190C207DA9AA0@phx.gbl>


Kris wrote: What do you think of "close embrance" after a guy has been dancing several
> hours and is totally soaked in his sweat?...

The guy needs one of Portland tanguera Bonnie Lee's Miracle shirts. They're gortex and wick away moisture, and the sweatiest dancer always feels dry, and odorless too. (I have no financial connection to Bonnie Lee). Her company is Tanguero Designs, but unfortunately she's apparently moving her website and the link that I have no longer works. I'll see if I can find a good link and post it later.

          J


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009

From endzone102 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 11:44:46 2009
From: endzone102 at gmail.com (Endzone 102)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:44:46 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <358663.58844.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <f68bea000902260250s2a9ee430w6f98136b9ce09c34@mail.gmail.com>
	<358663.58844.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <694bf47d0902270844o1410dd7eo2d921da65fda06d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com
> wrote:

>
>
> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Kristina Bohm <kristinaelo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What do you think of "close embrance" after a guy
> > has been dancing several hours and is totally soaked in his sweat?... I,
> personally love both, close and open embrace. But recently I had to say 'no'
> to a great dancer whom I smelled already from 5 meters approaching me. (and
> yes, I smiled and said that I was tired...:) )
>
> Good answer.  By the way, anyone who has to work so hard that he sweats
> that much, might not be such a great dancer.
>

   Oh, dear.  Let me tell you something.  I sweat.  I sweat wearing shorts
in the winter.  Being in a dance hall or studio that's over 68 degress makes
me sweat, even before I start dancing.  But thanks for generalizing.

>
> > Another dancer, also at the end of milonga, after several
> > open embrace
> > tangos, told me that "he prefers close embrace"
> > and almost forced me to the
> > close position.
>
> I would have made an excuse and left in the middle of a tanda if someone
> tried that with me and I wanted to dance with him another time.  Otherwise,
> I would have just thanked him and left him on the dance floor.  If, however,
> you asked him to dance and you knew that he preferred close-embrace, then
> that's a different story.
>

   That's what your left elbow is for.  Lock it off if you really don't want
to dance in close.  But otherwise, I agree with Trini here.  Bail out if
you're not comfortable being in close with someone.

-Greg G

From tango at springssauna.com  Fri Feb 27 12:49:46 2009
From: tango at springssauna.com (Tango Mail)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:49:46 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Sweaty Shirts and Dark Milongas
Message-ID: <49A827BA.5000003@springssauna.com>

Jay Said:

"The guy needs one of Portland tanguera Bonnie Lee's Miracle shirts. They're gortex and wick away moisture, 
and the sweatiest dancer always feels dry, and odorless too. (I have no financial connection to Bonnie Lee).
Her company is Tanguero Designs, but unfortunately she's apparently moving her website and the link that I 
have no longer works. I'll see if I can find a good link and post it later. J".

I personally have gone to using Hot Climate UnderArmor undershirts under 
my button down shirt for this purpose.  It makes me a bit hotter
having two shirts on, but it is worth it: I can look good (shirt-wise) 
and that shirt will be dry (of MY sweat).  I don't think a short-sleeve 
shirt
is appropriate for an evening milonga; only a daytime one.  I also do 
not have to change shirts anymore mid-milonga or even going from the
evening milonga to the all-night milonga.  Wickers is another company 
making undershirt for this purpose as are multitude of other companies
making products in the US (mainly for the military).  UnderArmor isn't 
made in the USA but is the leading brand.

What happened to the Dark milongas question?  Can we hear from some 
organizers why the rooms must be kept friendly to Vampires?

JK


From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 12:51:18 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:51:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <694bf47d0902270844o1410dd7eo2d921da65fda06d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Endzone 102 <endzone102 at gmail.com> wrote:


   Oh, dear.  Let me tell you something.  I sweat.  I sweat wearing shorts
in the winter.  Being in a dance hall or studio that's over 68 degress
makes
me sweat, even before I start dancing.  But thanks for generalizing.

?~~~

I did say "might".  I'm sure someone like yourself who is aware of himself takes care to bring a change of shirt or something so that the woman isn't soaked.  One of my partners always wears a suit jacket so that the woman doesn't contact his sweat.  Chivalry isn't quite dead, yet.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 10:45:11 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The New Wave is coming! (Ola Nueva)
Message-ID: <130493.92550.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


This is THE Tango dance wave of the future...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmqGUamkOHE
..get ready for it...it teaches by hypnosis and it's precedentwas the Emporer's clothes...Soon, the lady will lead as much as the man and it's anybody's guess "who is leading now"...it will be political correctness and unassailable...it will decend from Europe onto the city of BsAsas the peso falls to 15 against the Euro...the Portenios will stayhome as the Milongas can only be afforded by the NUEVOS.....It will be the return of the body snatchers and it will be arbitratedby poets of the new order....yes, they will say that we are reactionarythat we feel that we are being left behine..that we want to keep everythingthe same as always..that we look stale on the dancefloor..connection will go...embrace will be only for the old and tired...there willbe Foam pumped onto the floor when the Ganchos and Volcados becomeboring....we will live to see all of this transpire..but there will be an underground..yes, a tango underground of weary milongueros who only
walk and turn in an embrace...like the lost generation of Guy Lombardo..waxing to New Year's music.We will still exist..there will be cobwebs on our tables and we will need seeing eyedogs to help us with the Cabeceo...but the REAL tango will go on!










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      

From sl at stevelittler.com  Fri Feb 27 16:39:39 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:39:39 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>

I wear a suit and tie and the ladies really appreciate it. In addition 
to unscented deodorant, I cover my skin with extra virgin coconut oil. 
The coconut odor dissipates long before I arrive at the milonga and the 
antimicrobial properties keep me pretty unscented all night long.

Steve

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>  One of my partners always wears a suit jacket so that the woman doesn't contact his sweat.  Chivalry isn't quite dead, yet.
>
>
>
>   

From joanneprochaska at aol.com  Fri Feb 27 17:10:59 2009
From: joanneprochaska at aol.com (joanneprochaska@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:10:59 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>
References: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <8CB673F676F6864-1498-61A@WEBMAIL-MZ14.sysops.aol.com>

Steve,
Thanks for setting such a great example for others to follow.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
www.tangocleveland.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 4:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"



I wear a suit and tie and the ladies really appreciate it. In addition 
to unscented deodorant, I cover my skin with extra virgin coconut oil. 
The coconut odor dissipates long before I arrive at the milonga and the 
antimicrobial properties keep me pretty unscented all night long.

Steve

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>  One of my partners always wears a suit jacket so that the woman doesn't 
contact his sweat.  Chivalry isn't quite dead, yet.
>
>
>
>   
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From endzone102 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 17:17:12 2009
From: endzone102 at gmail.com (Endzone 102)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:17:12 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>
References: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <694bf47d0902271417l325b070dse8d6388abae20771@mail.gmail.com>

I can't wear a suit and tie.  I overheat very badly if I wear long sleeves.
(Yes, I know I'm a border case, and not typical in this at all).  I usually
have to change my a-shirt after a milonga tanda.  I'll look in to coconut
oil.  That sounds interesting.

-Greg G

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com> wrote:

> I wear a suit and tie and the ladies really appreciate it. In addition
> to unscented deodorant, I cover my skin with extra virgin coconut oil.
> The coconut odor dissipates long before I arrive at the milonga and the
> antimicrobial properties keep me pretty unscented all night long.
>
>

From sherpal1 at aol.com  Fri Feb 27 17:36:40 2009
From: sherpal1 at aol.com (sherpal1@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:36:40 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] shocking
Message-ID: <8CB6742FE61DCC7-F4C-1E10@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com>

the ladies are lucky , they get to be sleeveless, backless, in short skirts and waving fans.....I have seen women walk away from sweating men in disgust, wiping their moisture soaked cheeks and running for los banos.? Too sensitive or righteous?? I say come on, not all body fluids are dangerous. sher

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Fri Feb 27 18:17:45 2009
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:17:45 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] shocking
In-Reply-To: <8CB6742FE61DCC7-F4C-1E10@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB6742FE61DCC7-F4C-1E10@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1064477694.20090227181745@attglobal.net>

Friday, February 27, 2009, 5:36:40 PM, you wrote:

sac> the ladies are lucky , they get to be sleeveless, backless, in
sac> short skirts and waving fans.....

And yet we leaders are plagued with women who not only are unable to
maintain their own axis, but insist on draping themselves over us (in
an attempt to send us to the chiropractor), while leaving a stain of
deodorant on our jackets as they clutch our hand with their sweaty
palms.

Considering how un-aerobic tango is, I think more tangeros and
tangeras should be getting some actual exercise, and avoiding
this problem altogether.

Regards/Richard
1-212-695-1759





From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 18:28:28 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:28:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking ( Richard's complaint)
Message-ID: <585759.3730.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




--- Richard Isaacs <RBIsaacs at attglobal.net> wrote:

And yet we leaders are plagued with women who not
> only are unable to
> maintain their own axis, but insist on draping
> themselves over us (in
> an attempt to send us to the chiropractor), while
> leaving a stain of
> deodorant on our jackets as they clutch our hand
> with their sweaty
> palms.

YOU 1) invite  or 2) accept an invitation to dance
with those awful women.  And you deserve so much
better, don't you?

Nancy


   



      

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Fri Feb 27 19:26:00 2009
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:26:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking ( Richard's complaint)
In-Reply-To: <585759.3730.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <585759.3730.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1278063687.20090227192600@attglobal.net>

Nancy -

Women who sweat are no more "awful" than men who sweat. With both it
may reflect on the amount of aerobic exercise they choose to do, but I
think you are mistaken to make it a character issue.

Regards/Richard
1-212-695-1759

Friday, February 27, 2009, 6:28:28 PM, you wrote:

N> --- Richard Isaacs <RBIsaacs at attglobal.net> wrote:

>> And yet we leaders are plagued with women who not only are unable
>> to maintain their own axis, but insist on draping themselves over
>> us (in an attempt to send us to the chiropractor), while leaving a
>> stain of deodorant on our jackets as they clutch our hand with
>> their sweaty palms.

N> YOU 1) invite  or 2) accept an invitation to dance
N> with those awful women.



From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Fri Feb 27 20:14:02 2009
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:14:02 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The New Wave is coming! (Ola Nueva)
In-Reply-To: <130493.92550.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090228011407.43C52DB0FEB@mit.edu>

Mario,,, where did you get, what you wrote, out of what was in the video
clip...


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Mario
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:45 AM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] The New Wave is coming! (Ola Nueva)


This is THE Tango dance wave of the future...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmqGUamkOHE
..get ready for it...it teaches by hypnosis and it's precedentwas the
Emporer's clothes...Soon, the lady will lead as much as the man and it's
anybody's guess "who is leading now"...it will be political correctness and
unassailable...it will decend from Europe onto the city of BsAsas the peso
falls to 15 against the Euro...the Portenios will stayhome as the Milongas
can only be afforded by the NUEVOS.....It will be the return of the body
snatchers and it will be arbitratedby poets of the new order....yes, they
will say that we are reactionarythat we feel that we are being left
behine..that we want to keep everythingthe same as always..that we look
stale on the dancefloor..connection will go...embrace will be only for the
old and tired...there willbe Foam pumped onto the floor when the Ganchos and
Volcados becomeboring....we will live to see all of this transpire..but
there will be an underground..yes, a tango underground of weary milongueros
who only
walk and turn in an embrace...like the lost generation of Guy
Lombardo..waxing to New Year's music.We will still exist..there will be
cobwebs on our tables and we will need seeing eyedogs to help us with the
Cabeceo...but the REAL tango will go on!










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 20:54:29 2009
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:54:29 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] The New Wave is coming! (Ola Nueva)
In-Reply-To: <130493.92550.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <130493.92550.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210902271754l6180c515g670e5c219aed0935@mail.gmail.com>

Hola Mario,
I have seen this couple in BsAs on numerous occasions during their 1+month
stay here. I have to say that they blended in just as well at El Beso or
Cachirulo as they did in Practica X, dancing with connection, musicality,
consideration of the people they were sharing the dancefloor with . If
anything, the forementioned aspects were what made them stand out at  venues
such as practica x , where the norm is lack of musicality, and people so
focused on their own 'triplesacadawithaavolcadaleadingintoaboleo' that they
barely notice that they have crashed into 5 couples in the process.

abrazos

p.s. apologies if this message went through more than once
-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From sherpal1 at aol.com  Fri Feb 27 21:54:45 2009
From: sherpal1 at aol.com (sherpal1@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:54:45 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] shocking sweat
Message-ID: <8CB67670BBBC5DA-1340-147B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com>

it?is your responsibility to find followers who do not drape themselves over you and who do not have an axis...how do you choose a dance parnter, what are your dance priorities....if you were more descriminating, you would neither sweat nor be so bitter, sherrie



From macfroggy at aol.com  Sat Feb 28 06:32:18 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:32:18 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] shocking sweat
In-Reply-To: <8CB67670BBBC5DA-1340-147B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB67670BBBC5DA-1340-147B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CB67AF58C8ADB2-1208-157@WEBMAIL-DF08.sysops.aol.com>


Sometimes still an old milonguero will keep folded handkerchiefs in 
each palm as he embraces the woman, to avoid getting his sweat on her 
back or her right hand. Nice.

cherie





"it?is your responsibility to find followers who do not drape 
themselves over you
and who do not have an axis...how do you choose a dance parnter, what 
are your
dance priorities....if you were more descriminating, you would neither 
sweat nor
be so bitter, sherrie"





From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Sat Feb 28 12:41:42 2009
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:41:42 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking ( Richard's complaint)
In-Reply-To: <585759.3730.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <585759.3730.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1407737547.20090228124142@attglobal.net>

I called a friend who is an exercise physiologist. He said that the
sweating he has observed in tango dancers, male and female, is
unlikely to be caused by lack of aerobic training. because social
tango is not physically demanding enough for that to be an issue.

Rather, he felt, it was caused by bad posture and core muscle issues.

Regards/Richard



From flame at 2xtreme.net  Sat Feb 28 22:19:58 2009
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:19:58 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] New Wave is coming!
Message-ID: <49A98E5E.13612.B8C024@flame.2xtreme.net>

Do you think the woman is leading here? No, she is simply demonstating 
what the leader has to do to make the follower cross.  She's not suggesting 
that "she " is the leader in the dance.  Although this is described as a 
beginning class, many leaders who consider themselves way beyond 
beginners still don't know how to effectively lead the cross and could learn 
something valuable here. 

This is THE Tango dance wave of the future...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmqGUamkOHE
..get ready for it...it teaches by hypnosis and it's precedentwas the
Emporer's clothes...Soon, the lady will lead as much as the man and it's
anybody's guess "who is leading now"...

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat Feb 28 23:07:59 2009
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:07:59 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocking "close embrace"
In-Reply-To: <694bf47d0902271417l325b070dse8d6388abae20771@mail.gmail.com>
References: <183883.30420.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	<49A85D9B.3080106@stevelittler.com>
	<694bf47d0902271417l325b070dse8d6388abae20771@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AA0A1F.30200@ruby.plala.or.jp>

I live in Tokyo where summer is basically like a cross between a green 
house and a sauna, and all the milongas are air conditioned.
Still, I know exactly who tends to sweat in the milongas and who 
doesn't. I know that after dancing close embrace with a certain man all 
the hair in and near my face will be dripping with the sweat that ran 
from his hair into mine. Do I mind?
Obviously, it is a matter of personal sympathy or not, and,very 
important, smell. Fortunately, Japanese do not usually smell, their 
sweat glands are smaller and they eat differently and bathe and shower 
all the time too.
I have a friend and colleague who does not even sweat much, but he likes 
to dress up in shirts, ties and suits, and more often than not those 
shirts are made of polyester and he obviously does not wear deodorant 
and is from the West,  which means, the polyester makes him disaster 
prone in this way. So, even though dancing with him can be fun, I 
usually try to wriggle out of it after 2 or 3 songs, as I cannot take it 
any longer than that, I cannot dance and hold my breath half of the time.
I know another guy who likes to burn a huge amount of energy on the 
dance floor, rushing around the room in huge steps, quick turns, spins 
and so on and he is a little chubby too and soon sweats profusely while 
he does it. He does not smell, he is Japanese, he is fun to dane with, 
but you end up getting wet too while dancing with him. Fortunately he 
has the good sense of wearing cotton, t shirts, mostly, and he always 
comes to the milongas with a Boston bag in which he carries all his 
extra shirts, and he changes them in the bathroom every time he got 
drenched again which I much appreciate. And he does not embrace you too 
closely when he is dripping.

Now, I very much doubt that posture or core muscles have anything to do 
with this problem, I do believe that keeping a proper diet with more 
vegetables and less red meat, less beer and trying to maintain a healthy 
or at least healthier weight would make a lot of difference.
Dressing up in suits and ties can be counter productive as they make you 
feel hot, do not ever wear anything knitted to a milonga (it feels awful 
to the partner even if you do not sweat), do bring a change of clothes, 
and the hosts should make sure that a reasonably cool, fresh climate is 
maintained in the room by using air conditioning, opening the windows or 
whatever is possible.
Yes, and if you go dancing while being hugely overweight and retaining 
plenty of water in your body, well...food for thought. Skinny people do 
not really sweat much, so maybe this is one more reason I am so lucky 
living in Japan where people live mainly on fish, rice, shredded raw 
cabbage, tofu and water.

And Greg, I suggest, you try powder instead of oil, oil might just make 
you slippery in addition to being wet.

Astrid


Endzone 102 wrote:
> I can't wear a suit and tie.  I overheat very badly if I wear long sleeves.
> (Yes, I know I'm a border case, and not typical in this at all).  I usually
> have to change my a-shirt after a milonga tanda.  I'll look in to coconut
> oil.  That sounds interesting.
>
> -Greg G
>
>   


From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 27 18:21:44 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Vince_Bagu=B9auskas?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:21:44 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] shocking
In-Reply-To: <8CB6742FE61DCC7-F4C-1E10@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB6742FE61DCC7-F4C-1E10@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W6CF54119B17DC175F0F7FAEAA0@phx.gbl>



Let me say, that backless ladies, especially after a milonga tanda, are often covered in moisture.  Icky yes.  But I get over it. So should they.  
 
There is a difference in smell between a work-out sweat and those men AND women who hve not showered for a day or more and reek of old sweat.  Not accceptable on any counts.
 
 
 
 
When I did Ceroc, it was a code and taught by the particular teacher I had, that men are to bring along a small face towel to dances.  If they sweat a real lot then a change of shirt was required.



Cheers!



Vince


----------------------------------------
> To: TANGO-L at mit.edu
> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:36:40 -0500
> From: sherpal1 at aol.com
> Subject: [Tango-L] shocking
>
> the ladies are lucky , they get to be sleeveless, backless, in short skirts and waving fans
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From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 27 18:26:09 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Vince_Bagu=B9auskas?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:26:09 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] dark milongas
In-Reply-To: <D1C437F2D1CA4CC69CCA9067302BBB4D@michaelditkoff>
References: <49A442CD.10102@springssauna.com> <49A44FED.5080802@yahoo.com>
	<49A46BE4.8070708@stevelittler.com> 
	<D1C437F2D1CA4CC69CCA9067302BBB4D@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W389A8331BA97B27B675E90AEAA0@phx.gbl>



I dislike dark milongas, maybe becasue my eyesight is not as good as it used to be.  I also like to see where I am going.
 
 

 
Maybe the darkness is used to mask embarrassing moments?



Cheers!



Vince








----------------------------------------
> From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net
> To: sl at stevelittler.com; tango-l at mit.edu; tangomaniac at cavtel.net
> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:59:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] dark milongas
>
> I think the dark milongas comes from ballroom where ambiance is so
> important. I don't like dark ballrooms nor milongas. I used cabeceo a lot
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