From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 09:15:54 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0907311844t317e1f30tf0e13ebac95f5cbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <112868.20845.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> For me, quite simply because it's
> not.? It's Argentine.? Just the
> updates to the style are 'new'...

One could say the same thing about the moves from International, Finnish, or American tango back when those dances were developing.  Isn't it possible that the same thing is happening now?  If not, where are the bounds?

Trini de Pittsburgh


      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 13:07:58 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
In-Reply-To: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <981179.65619.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango.? I don't see that it can't be 
> tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a 
> type of tango.? Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango?
> 

Why can't we think of Nuevo in the same way we think of Milonga, i.e. related, 
but a completely different dance to Tango with its own steps, style and music. 
After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity' in the 1930s. And, just 
as no one dances Milonga to Tango music or Tango to Milonga music, so it 
would be with Nuevo. We could then add Nuevo Tandas during milongas. 
If people don't like Nuevo, they can just sit out the tanda, just as many do 
with Milonga. 

Jack


      



From keith at totango.net  Sat Aug  1 13:42:17 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:42:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
In-Reply-To: <981179.65619.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <386713.76802.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>   
	<981179.65619.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Jack wrote:

"After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity' in the 1930s."

Uh - no.

Milonga pre-dated tango.

From arrabaltango at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Aug  1 14:40:45 2009
From: arrabaltango at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andrew_RYSER_SZYMA=D1SKI?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 18:40:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net> wrote:

> From: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>
> Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, 1 August, 2009, 6:42 PM
> 
> Jack wrote:
> 
> "After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity'
> in the 1930s."
> 
> Uh - no.
> 
> Milonga pre-dated tango.

The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.

Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.



      


From keith at totango.net  Sat Aug  1 14:47:51 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 14:47:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

> Milonga pre-dated tango.
>
> The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga
> sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow
> dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
> hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
> Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera
> eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.

All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.


From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 15:16:50 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4A7494A2.8040805@yahoo.com>

I agree with Keith... when I studied la musica at the Academia Nacional 
del Tango for a few weeks,  it was made clear that milonga predated 
tango and, btw, was not at all dirge like!!! (where did that come 
from???)  The great tango guitarist Anibal Arias said it  had its roots 
in southern Brazil, and had many influences including Cuban habanera 
(from sailors), and  yes,  was in part, spread by the payadores who 
brought it to the arrabal (outskirts of city) and played lively versions 
on guitar. That's my understanding.

Keith Elshaw wrote:

>>Milonga pre-dated tango.
>>
>>The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga
>>sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow
>>dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
>>hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
>>Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera
>>eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.
>>    
>>
>
>All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From stermitz at tango.org  Sat Aug  1 15:52:29 2009
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:52:29 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <DEE3CD3A-6484-4E56-AC51-1CF3C4277DEA@tango.org>

Keith, note how Andrew says:

"The milonga we dance nowadays"

The milonga from the 19th century was a different music from the  
milonga that developed in the 1930s. The roots of tango may have been  
the older milonga, but today's (1930s and later) milonga came out of  
the tango of the 1920s, not the milonga of the 1890s, which which was  
two generations earlier.

In other words the evolutionary tree split in the 1930s. Milonga and  
Tango did not go back to the 1890s as two separate musical forms.

If you listen to the music of the 1920s, it is (in general) somewhat  
march-like. Some songs feel tango-ish and others feel milonga-ish, and  
a lot of them aren't very differentiated as milonga or tango.

In the 1930s, tangos slowed down, added new musical elements, and  
developed along the de Darean (slower) and d'Arienzean (rhythmic) paths.

In the 1930s, milongas sped up and had candombe and african-ish  
rhythms and lyrics added. The lyrics were full of this nostalgia for  
the good old days when black people lived in San Telmo, and danced  
under the torches.

Are there examples of milonga candombera from the 1910s and 1920s? I'm  
going to assume we could find 1920s examples of canbombe in Uruguaya,  
but I'm not sure if these were part of the tango experience or whether  
they stayed with the african communities and carnivals of Uruguay.

Our enjoyment of milonga is sort of "double nostalgia".

I guess, all this discussion is "meta milonga.


On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote:

>> Milonga pre-dated tango.
>>
>> The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in  
>> Milonga
>> sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a  
>> slow
>> dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
>> hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
>> Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga  
>> campera
>> eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be  
>> danced.
>
> All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis- 
> information.
>

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207




From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 02:30:20 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 02:30:20 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] the nuevo talk . .
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0907312330t79f4bc3s40c37e5d7df721d1@mail.gmail.com>

Ok so let's face it: WHY have we all come to Tango - nuevos or
whateversaloners or Milongueros? because there is some feeling, there
is connection, there is some magic - sorry to say but excpt wen I
watch Chico and his partner (sorry forgot her name  my apoogies) I see
NO MAGIC  and NO connection i "nuevo" people watch the floor, look
away, and they all mostly dance the saem hypnotic movements that are
no longer original if not created or improvised but one copied from
another.

The original Tango started by creative people improvising , talking
creating - and they had noone to copy from - so they had to express
what was inside. True dance comes from the inside out. It is not
copied. It has neither an -ism nor is it following. It is original.

The wonderful gift of the Tango should be honored by keeipng the
essence alive, meaning, the feeling and expression of emotions and
passion and whatever else there maybe - mystery? Something one cannot
explain?

 To reduce it to how cool of a step and moves you can make while the
inside is closed - or instead there is a "look at me how cool I can do
it?! " it shows - as there is nothing that moves the observer. Just a
bunch of moving legs. May as well hit the gym. Yes, surely I would
never be compelled by that, as what made all of us initially enroll in
a Beginner Tango Class or even close up shop and move to BsAs before
we classified ourselves into categories, was the fascination by the
connection, synchronicity between 2 humans and expressing feeling,
longing, poetry - what cannot be told?

 Unfortunately in the time where we spend too much time in front of a
computer screen - isolated with a machine -  or in our heads thinking
how it should be? - we lose perhaps sight of the very thing that made
us get into it to start with? Tango is a lot more than steps and moves
- why is noone really talking about that? Where are the seminars about
that?

From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  1 19:38:40 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 09:38:40 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] >   7. Re: What Do You Think? (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
In-Reply-To: <mailman.741.1249143444.10547.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.741.1249143444.10547.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS607BEF1343FB1117D596BAE110@phx.gbl>


> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
> To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Message-ID: <112868.20845.qm at web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>

>  If not, where are the bounds?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>


Interesting question on what is Argentine tango.  Reminds me of some of the 
guiding principles of an Australian tango club:

                Which tango?
                1. The Club's primary focus is on participatory Argentine 
social tango.
                2. The Club recognises that the definition of Argentine 
tango is contested, and will change over time.
                3. The Club recognises the importance of tango as a 
performance medium, and the fusions with other dance and theatre forms that 
this involves; but does not devote its resources to working in this area 
except to attract people.
 


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 23:49:10 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <4A7494A2.8040805@yahoo.com>
References: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<4A7494A2.8040805@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <724138.92140.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message ----
> 
> I agree with Keith... when I studied la musica at the Academia Nacional 
> del Tango for a few weeks,? it was made clear that milonga predated 
> tango > 

I was talking about dance, not music and I agree wth Andrew. Yes, milonga 
music predated tango but it was not for dancing. It was for guitar and singing.

The Milongas dance as we know it?dates from the early-30s, IMHO. 

Jack


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 23:51:45 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
In-Reply-To: <61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<485773.73388.qm@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <485647.98072.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>
> 
> All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.
> 

Thanks Keith; I suppose you were there?

Jack


      


From anton at alidas.com.au  Sun Aug  2 01:01:13 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:01:13 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] hypothesising
Message-ID: <000001ca132e$427333f0$c7599bd0$@com.au>

Since my association with Tango a mere 30 months ago, I have searched for an
authoritive definition of Tango. This list is testament to the difficulty of
this task. One of the most surprising discoveries was that about 50% of the
tango dancers I know, don't like tango music. So not surprisingly, most
peoples' lay
definition of tango lay in either the music, the steps or both. Limited by
my average intelligence, I have surmised that as steps can change and new
ones invented, that can't be the rock (maybe sand) on which tango is built.
So in my mind I have eliminated two of the "lay" definitions. Remaining is
the music. I'm left with a situation where a large number of tango dancers
don't like (even hate) the music to which a large number of tango dancers
are dancing. How can that be? Isn't it all Tango? Can Tango music engender
both a loving and a loathing amongst its practioners?? First we have to 
establish that it is all tango. So what is it about the music that makes it 
intrinsically Tango? The most forceful explanation that my simple mind can 
digest is given by Joaquin Amenabar*. Author of the recent publication 
"Tango Let's dance to the music!" Read the book for his
definition/explanation
?- it's not important for me to make my point. Which is, change the music 
beyond certain bounds and you change tango to something else. You may still 
call it tango, but in my opinion you're shifting it's paradigm by stealth. 
Why is there this pressure to change the model? Not surprising, if 50% of 
tango dancers not liking the music is true. I then ask, why did this 50% get

into tango? Maybe there is ambiguity in the way the tango persona is
presented 
to the public by our community. Whatever the reason, it's pretty clear that 
one size does not fit all. And I believe this is why positions between 
traditional and Nuevo is so fiercely defended. I enjoy most styles of music.

I'll get up and dance at a milonga to music that I know isn't tango, with 
great enjoyment. I have no issue with dancers employing Nuevo steps on tight

floors like at La Marshall, provided there's consideration for other dancers

and I like the music. Whilst there may be no bounds for Tango nuevo-steps 
except for courtesy to others, there should definitely be bounds for 
Tango nuevo-music, if the crevice in our community isn't going to keep 
growing. Again, what are the bounds?

*?????????? Director of the tango orchestra "Orquesta Tipica de la Guardia
Vieja". Professor of Bandoneon at the City Of Buenos Aires' Higher
Conservatory of Music; at the University of Buenos Aires? Lopez Buchardo 
National Conservatory; and at the Avellaneda School of Folk Music. Having
danced
Tango since 1994,he has taught Tango music ? as applied to dance ? in
Germany,
England, Italy, Austria, Turkey, USA, Australia and New Zealand amongst 
other countries.

Anton





From keith at totango.net  Sun Aug  2 01:52:27 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 01:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
Message-ID: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

It's true that, post-Piazzolla, a thinking has crept in that the music and
the dance are not the same thing.

This thinking and retro-view recitation does not make it so.

The dance and the music were integral. Always - until the 1950's.

The people who created it all didn't sit and listen to vals. They danced it.

They didn't sit and listen to milonga. They danced it.

They danced their little asses off. Which is why we have a form. (Any
spectators were just that and not qualified to explain "it").

All the immigrant threads of musical/dance heritage got woven together and
something started to emerge.

All the time dancing.

When the bandoneon showed-up, a new circumstance was created.

The bandoneon players just couldn't play as fast as the other musicians.
It was a complicated little box that took a lot of time to master and
integrate.

In a spirit of collegiality, the other musicians slowed-down to let them
play as well.

Things went from 2/4 and 3/4 to 4/4 sometimes for them.

Tango was born.

Everybody all the time dancing.

Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years later (from the
beginnings). It's all music for dancing.

It's laughable to say that milonga for dancing only came to the fore in
the 1930's.

Well - it's at least incorrect to say that.

The cynically rhetorical question, "Was I there?" is beneath me to answer.

Let's just say I've done my research.

And haven't been fooled by latter-day revisionists (who don't seem to be
dancers or musicians, by the way).

Saying that milonga as we know it came along in the 1930's is so untrue,
it should never be repeated.

2/4 is NOT 4/4.

When Piazzolla called something "Milonga" - it was just a word he liked.

Milonga Del Angel is not a milonga in this, the last, or any other
century. It's a beautiful Piazzolla tango.

Tango is the youngest of the genius children given birth by the Rio De La
Plata.

Milonga as we know it is a parent.













From keith at totango.net  Sun Aug  2 02:21:40 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 02:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
Message-ID: <61889.65.93.193.148.1249194100.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing
tango moves while trying to dance milonga.

I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen
that just isn't natural.

And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.

1-2/2-2

Is not at all the same as

1 2 3 4

When will teachers show the difference?





From sl at stevelittler.com  Sun Aug  2 03:07:04 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:07:04 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
In-Reply-To: <61889.65.93.193.148.1249194100.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <61889.65.93.193.148.1249194100.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4A753B18.6030607@stevelittler.com>

Dear Keith,

Can you explain that 1-2/2-2 or make an audio and post it?

Many thanks!

Steve

Keith Elshaw wrote:
> Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing
> tango moves while trying to dance milonga.
>
> I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen
> that just isn't natural.
>
> And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.
>
> 1-2/2-2
>
> Is not at all the same as
>
> 1 2 3 4
>
> When will teachers show the difference?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  2 04:32:37 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 01:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
In-Reply-To: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199813.72760.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>
> 
> They didn't sit and listen to milonga. They danced it.
> 
> They danced their little asses off. Which is why we have a form. > 
> 
> It's laughable to say that milonga for dancing only came to the fore in
> the 1930's.
> 

Sebasti?n Piana doesn't seem to agree.
?
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/entrevista_piana.asp?
?
Excerpt:
?
"Can we talk of a "Piana's Revolution" as far as milonga is concerned?
?
It is, simply, the change from a milonga -which was regarded as belonging 
to the south and the Pampas, without dance or danced in privacy, and dug 
by gauchos and payadores-, to the milonga porte?a, owed to Maffia and to me."
?
Just in case there's anyone out there who doesn't know; Sebasti?n Piana 
wrote his first milonga porte?a in 1932.
?
Before the 1930s, it doesn't sound to me?like anyone was "dancing their little 
asses off" to milonga music. And there are plenty of other sources to support
that conclusion.
?
Perhaps Keith can provide sources for his opinion.
?
Jack


      



From politas at gmail.com  Sun Aug  2 04:51:33 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 18:51:33 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4A753B18.6030607@stevelittler.com>
References: <61889.65.93.193.148.1249194100.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<4A753B18.6030607@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <1249203093.6813.20.camel@wedge>

On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 03:07 -0400, Steve Littler wrote:
> Dear Keith,
> 
> Can you explain that 1-2/2-2 or make an audio and post it?

Joaquin Amenabar, when explaining the difference between Tango and
Milonga, throws away the 4/4 - 2/4 difference, because it really isn't
relevant.

Milonga music has a secondary rythm overlying the basic 2-beat pattern.

A standard 2/4 beat is like this:

| ' | ' | ' | '

Where the "|" is an accented beat, and the "'" is an unaccented beat.

The Milonga rhythm is a four-beat pattern that lines up to the basic 2/4
like this:

Plain 2/4
| ' | ' | ' | ' 
|  '| ' |  '| '
Milonga

Here's a sample of the Milonga Rhythm that I have recorded using claves:
http://www.4shared.com/file/122343713/f2d8aff9/MilongaRhythm.html

You see that the first unaccented beat in the block of four beats is
delayed, so that instead of having equal amounts of time on either side
(50/50), it is closer to the second accented beat (75/25).

Joaquin states that "tango" music before the 20th century all used this
rhythmic pattern, and it was the loss of this pattern (and indeed the
loss of any fixed rhythmic pattern over the basic four-beat timing) that
defines tango music and makes it what it is. Basically, it was the
introduction of the freedom of classical music into dance music.

So basically, there was tango music, which then became tango music and
milonga music, but the milonga music is closer to what was earlier known
as tango music. 

Does that make it clearer?


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  2 10:07:08 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
Message-ID: <57534.78611.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
Interesting question on what is Argentine tango.? Reminds me of some of the guiding principles of an Australian tango club:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Which tango?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1. The Club's primary focus is on participatory Argentine 
social tango.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2. The Club recognises that the definition of Argentine 
tango is contested, and will change over time.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3. The Club recognises the importance of tango as a 
performance medium, and the fusions with other dance and theatre forms that this involves; but does not devote its resources to working in this area except to attract people.


Vince, I like this!  I was thinking whether I should finally state my own principles, which could help guide newbies in an appropriate direction for them.  The event that has kept us grounded here for many years is an annual demonstration that the tango community puts on for a big Latin American & Caribbean Festival.  We represent an Argentine Tango community to Latins, and none of us are Argentine.  We can't go in with the stereotypical American brashness of "this is how we dance and it IS Argentine Tango".  It's easy to impress beginners or non-experts, but that's not who we're trying to impress when we perform at this festival because we're also representing them.

Jack, I agree with thinking of Nuevo as part of the family of tango.  Using separate tandas in the same way we do milonga and vals is, I think, how most people incorporate it in milongas.  I've noticed that people (not just me) bring out the nuevo steps largely during those times and not when traditional music is being played.  I think this shows a clear distinction that the average dancer makes.  It's the average dancer that eventually defines tango, not the pioneers.

When nuevo dancers present that their way of evolving the dance is the only way (and that is the impression they give), I don't think they are being accurate.  There is so much out there with regular salon and so much to explore in the 70 years of dancing that it seems ludicrous that nuevo is the only wave of the future.  The other day, an excellent and experienced dancer returned from a vacation with new steps to play with, stuff I hadn't seen in 15 years of dancing.  And they had a salon feel.  So much to still explore in tango tango.

I think traditionalists wouldn't be so down on nuevo dancers if the nuevo movement recognized themselves as one way of developing the form, and not THE way of evolving tango.


Trini de Pittsburgh

P.S.  I'm also enjoying the discussion on milonga.





      


From laura at lavatop.com  Sun Aug  2 07:47:05 2009
From: laura at lavatop.com (Laura V)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:47:05 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc. + an introduction
In-Reply-To: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4A757CB9.5080500@lavatop.com>

According to this article by Christine Denniston, what happened to 
milonga in the 1930s was a stylistic break from the musical form of 
Milonga Surena or Campera:  "...the folk song Milonga, has a neutral, 
almost tuneless tune, with the lyrics chanted over a strict structure of 
rhythm and chords". However, she says there is evidence to suggest that 
this earlier form was danced to and after all, the word milonga evolved 
into meaning a place where dancing happens.

In the article, Christine claims that in 1932, Homero Manzi and 
Sebastian Piana broke from the musical tradition of the folk milonga 
with the song Milonga Sentimental, forming the basis of the milonga 
dance tunes we recognize today.

http://www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_milonga_vals_92.html

As this is my first post to the list, I'll just say hello - I'm from 
Reykjav?k, Iceland, dancing tango 5 years now and also have also been 
dj-ing the past couple of years.

Best Regards,
Laura






From DocDAS at aol.com  Sun Aug  2 11:00:47 2009
From: DocDAS at aol.com (DocDAS@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 11:00:47 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga?
Message-ID: <c66.59331030.37a7041f@aol.com>

Sorry Keith I don't agree with not being able to do tango moves to milonga  
rhythm. The secret or simply the technique of dancing to Milonga rhythm is 
to  step on each beat or the accented beat as some would prefer and or 
double  time or traspie. Doing the basic steps 1-5 followed with a molinete   
looks good and is a nice variation to milonga steps/moves; and certainly  fits 
the rhythm. It was good enough for Pablo Pugliese when he taught  it in a 
work shop years ago and it works for me as well without  pushing! Give it a 
try and maybe you'll be less annoyed at milongas  when you see other dancers 
incorporating basic tango steps; unless of course  they are just 
inexperienced and/or bad dancers. Try it you may like it.
Dan   
 
Keith Elshaw wrote:
> Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved  when I see people doing
> tango moves while trying to dance  milonga.
>
> I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make  something happen
> that just isn't natural.
>
> And I feel  sorry for the men who just don't get it.
>
> 1-2/2-2
>
>  Is not at all the same as
>
> 1 2 3 4
>
> When will  teachers show the difference?

**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
=JulystepsfooterNO115)

From dchester at charter.net  Sun Aug  2 12:48:51 2009
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:48:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.653.1249230266.10425.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.653.1249230266.10425.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <001501ca1391$1d56e4a0$5804ade0$@net>

Keith,

While I normally agree with most of your posts, have you considered the
possibility that some of these people who you very sorry for, might be
experiencing something that you don't get?  What is "natural", often depends
on which person we are talking about.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith at totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l at mit.edu

Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing tango
moves while trying to dance milonga.

I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen that
just isn't natural.

And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.


From jb34528 at att.net  Sun Aug  2 13:52:17 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:52:17 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
Message-ID: <080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

Sorry, a little late - the milonga became the rage right now.
On the video now so widely discussed sebastian and Mariana dance a beautiful Argentine tango. Perhaps a little more performance oriented. And they may be moving the bounds. The year is 2009. Tango has been evolving and they are on the cutting edge. I wish I could dance like that! 
Here is a parable: The Ford model T was an automobile that started it all and changed the world. Now you inspect a shiny new Chevy ? No running boards!, the wheels? ? where are the beautifully crafted hardwood spokes? And so on. The conclusion: ?This is not an automobile ? it is something different and it should have a different name!? BTW, tango is older than the model T. 
Nuevo? The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
For example, M & S did an underarm turn ? they did it ?tango like? IMHO. Underarm turn is done in many dances. And none has an exclusive license for it. As a matter of fact, we should feel left behind and disappointed that the stubborn insistence on ?true tango" traditions left the field open for salseros, lindy hoppers and others to discover all those cool moves! ;-)
I took a number of classes from Sebastian and Mariana and believe that what they teach and dance is tango. The ?non  nuevo?, especially its most conservative forms should be called historical tango. And a dance event imposing the conservative limits should be called historical milonga. This might be hard to take for those who made an emotional investment at the time of their initial indoctrination and never got over it.
Jan

From c.roques at mchsi.com  Sun Aug  2 13:55:15 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:55:15 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
Message-ID: <080220091755.28299.4A75D303000D8F0300006E8B223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Keith is right on this one and I agree with him, but it is not just a matter of being able to do tango steps or being uncomfortable or other issues that some of you are debating.  Of course you can do any moves you want to tango...just look at all the nuevo stuff.  The issue is more about not doing certain steps because they are not done in milonga traditionally.  Milonga is a different dance from tango?it is not just speeded up tango as so many seem to think.   You do not go the cross in milonga and you don't do a resolution in milonga (to name two differences) and steps are smaller...even ochos are different.  Few people (at least in the United States) actually do milonga correctly, but that can be partly blamed on the teachers...it isn't taught correctly either.  Doing faster tango to a milonga just looks awkward and forced.  Why bother to do a dance if you are not going to follow the rules for its form and way it is danced.

..as for Pablo Pugliese, there are much better examples of milonga.  Danny El Flaco for one of the best and probably the most elegant dancer of milonga in Buenos Aires, Gustavo Chidichimo, who teaches at Gricel.  That is milonga.

cheers,
 Charles


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sun Aug  2 14:00:25 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 14:00:25 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
In-Reply-To: <080220091755.28299.4A75D303000D8F0300006E8B223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
References: <080220091755.28299.4A75D303000D8F0300006E8B223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0908021100n668c07cp168752fcb215a1db@mail.gmail.com>

>You do not go the cross in milonga

I've been taught that going to the cross is OK, but there can't be a
pause there, like in tango, so the follower is walking backwards in
the same rhythm, with or without the cross.

>and you don't do a resolution in milonga
Huh? The basic milonga step is basically the tango 8CB with steps 4-5
thrown out.
And what are 8CB steps 6-8 if not resolucion?

Sergey

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  2 15:06:29 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:06:29 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] More about early milonga....
Message-ID: <4A75E3B5.3050602@yahoo.com>

Hi listeros...
Ruben Terbalca, also known as Ruben Milonga, a great milonga dancer, 
teacher and historian,  wrote to me about the milonga postings of 
today... he has given me permission to correct gammar and share it.... 
so here it...  I take responsibilities for any mistakes in "translating" 
and will contact him about  your questions if necessary///
I.

******************
1) 2 or 3 kinds of "milongas" existed before the Tango was born (circa 
1880-)-Not  the same as today's milonga that we dance..
 
2)- _*when the "Tango" showed up ( circa 1*_880), the "milonga" 
disappeared ( approx. 3 'types' of new milongas showed up between 
1890-1932 ) .-
 
3)- 1917/ 1923 "Guardia Nueva" where born : DeCaro leads the music 
process.- Tango became basically slow, melancholic, romantic /arranged 
/sung.
 
4)-* _1932-1933_* Manzi + Piana produce "Milonga Sentimental", and 
"MIlonga del 900" based in the earlier tangos - early "Guardia Vieja" ( 
around *40 years  after  the first "milongas")*
 
5)-  There are minimum 3 types of Milonga,  _
_4)-This type (below) shows clearly some proximity with Habanera .-
 6)-Samples  ..... "El Esquinazo", "El Torito", "El LLoron", "El 
Portenito": all of them are */_"Guardia Vieja" Tangos........not 
"Milongas"_/*
*//* 
*/_7)- Milonga is an Kimbundu word (Africa); _/**/_Bantu  word  ( 
AFRICA); LIKE : "TANGO"; "CANDOMBE"; "CANYENGUE "(also from Africa)_/*
 
8)- Anibal Arias is the best Tango guitar Player surviving.-
He is not knowed as an historian / researcher in Argentina.-
 
9)- I recommend Oscar del Priore like a historian / researcher 
/musicologist in this field.-
-
10)- The process is /*also* /much more complex then this compact 
information.-
 
11)-We call each other "milongueros" (?-.tango dancers.-?),....-  the 
most popular native dance was the earlier milongas, also because the 
parties was also called "Milongas".
 
beso
Ruben Terbalca
Former Teacher (1993- 1996) : "*Universidad del Tango de Buenos Aires"*
 

 
 
 
 

<http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l>

From romerob at telusplanet.net  Sun Aug  2 15:07:02 2009
From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 12:07:02 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
Message-ID: <1249240021.4a75e3d600e4e@legacywebmail.telus.net>

Some info I have gathered over the years:

Most recent research indicates that the Milonga may have been introduced to 
Uruguay by Brazilian soldiers who stayed in Uruguay after the Brazil and 
Argentina war in the 1820's.
-First record of the milonga as a dance form is mentioned in Argentine  
literature about 1860. 
- First record of milonga danced on stage appears in the early 1890's.
- The titles of Milonga and Tango were interchangeable by the music studios in 
the early 1900's.
- The old tango "El Lloron" became a Milonga
- Florindo Sassone describes that the true tango is played slow in Milonga 
tempo and melody and gives an example with his tango "La Clavada" played in 
Tokyo at his last tour.
- The difference in tempo between Milonga and Tango is merely a difference of 
style between Uruguay (slow) and Argentina (fast).
 
Cheers,

Bruno


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sun Aug  2 16:18:12 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 13:18:12 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] hypothesising
In-Reply-To: <000001ca132e$427333f0$c7599bd0$@com.au>
References: <000001ca132e$427333f0$c7599bd0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370908021318i628581h164ce02da749f20f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Anton Stanley<anton at alidas.com.au> wrote:
> Since my association with Tango a mere 30 months ago, I have searched for an
> authoritive definition of Tango. This list is testament to the difficulty of
> this task. One of the most surprising discoveries was that about 50% of the
> tango dancers I know, don't like tango music.

     Then they are not tango dancers: they're just people moving in a
manner they perceive to be tangolike.

Huck

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  2 18:06:35 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 22:06:35 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Campera - Payadas and Payadores  I
Message-ID: <SNT115-W4934BC41282F52DB32E50A970E0@phx.gbl>


 The word mulonga (like its plural, milonga ) is a term of quimbunda origin, of the language spoken by the Angolan slaves, that means word.  So "Mulonga" means "word" and "Milonga" means "words" or palabrerio "many words".
 
Gauchos used to gather and organize "Payadas", a contrapunto in which two singers or payadores, accompanying themselves with the guitar, improvised on different topics.  One would start singing in verse about a subject
(God,life, death, love, etc) and the other one would answer.  The black slaves did not understqand the payadas very well and started to call them "Milonga" or "many words", in time the event and also the place where those events took place were called "Milonga".
 
The "word" competition in time was followed by "some type of dancing". Before the tango was born people gathered at the payadas and danced. The word Milonga defined both the payada, the place where the event took place and the dance that followed.
 
We use(in Argentina) the word "Milonga" with both meanings today.  One in reference to the "event" - We go to the Milonga (meaning a place where we dance), we call Milonga a type of dance (The Milonga one of the three Argentine ballroom dances, vals and tango being the other two).
 
We also by extension call "Milongueros" those that go to the milongas.
 
We use in slang the word milonga in reference to "Many words". Somebody comes to you with a long complain, you may say "no vengas con esa milonga", (Do not come with such a long complaining discourse).
 
We could use the saying "La vida es una milonga" (lIFE IS A MILONGA) meaning that life is the long history of a drama).
 
That type of milonga which had some variations from area to area, was called "Milonga Campera" or "Milonga Sure?a) .  Campera means "from the country side" Sure?a means "from the south".
 
This milonga campera exists today. It has a more monotonous rhythm and the lyrics are usualy very funny.
 
the payadores and payadas exist as well in our country side holiday celebrations.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RItiz8hXJEA&NR=1 Example of payada.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugzRV737zes&feature=related   Example of payada.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4BfOyvZGXc A payador sings to Jose Hernandez the person that wrote "El martin 
Fierro".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA9ooCWzyfM&feature=related  Example of Milonga Campera - The music.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkk-OGdoR7M  Example of milonga Campera - The dance
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009

From fullblast4 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  2 21:14:23 2009
From: fullblast4 at yahoo.com (Miha Glockenspiel)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 18:14:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Score for Bajo el cielo azul
In-Reply-To: <4A757CB9.5080500@lavatop.com>
References: <60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<4A757CB9.5080500@lavatop.com>
Message-ID: <752411.22216.qm@web43138.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Can someone help me finding a score (piano, voice, orchestra, etc.) for the the great song Bajo el Cielo Azul?
I feel like I have looked everywhere, but on the book shelf of the right nice person....
Thx

 Miha Glockenspiel
Fullblast-Always forward never straight


      

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  2 22:56:24 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 02:56:24 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Urban Milonga
Message-ID: <SNT115-W284530778EEB5AF7D9367D970F0@phx.gbl>


 
The Urban Milonga (Milonga Porte?a) was created by Sebastian Piana and his brother in law, Pedro Maffia.  
 
Sebastian Piana was asked to compose a milonga by the famous singer Rosita Quiroga.  He thought that the Milonga Campera music was rather monotonous in order to allow the singers to improvise, so he decided to change it. 
 
He kept the beat simple, using the same basic melody but with a more defined musical sound that could make his milonga different from any other one. More like the tangos without losing the milonga essential characteristics.
 
His creation was "Milonga Sentimental"  - year 1931 - Lyrics by Homero Manzi. 
 
This one was the first urban Milonga.
 
Other musicians followed his example and composed similar milongas, which are the ones that we dance today.
 
http://www.todotango.com/spanish/las_obras/letra.aspx?idletra=253  Milonga sentimental by Carlos Gardel.
 
Best wishes,
 
Sergio
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get free photo software from Windows Live
http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Mon Aug  3 02:28:09 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:28:09 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] El Beso floor size?
Message-ID: <4A768379.6020502@shahrukhmerchant.com>

newtonr at mscd.edu asks:

> Would anyone know the dimensions (in feet ot meters) of the milonga 
> floor at El Beso, Bs.As. (the dance area only)?  

Why the interest in El Beso in particular?

Anyway, I went there tonight so I measured it for you. :-) 7.8 m x 8.7 
m. Minus a triangular wedge in one corner of about 2 sq. m. Minus a 
square pole near the center of the floor that is about 30 cm x 30 cm but 
probably effectively removes 1 sq. m. of useable dance space. So call it 
65 sq. m. of dance space.

> How many couples can 
> dance there comfortably?

At its most crowded tonight, there were 30 couples dancing at a time, 
which I would say is close to the maximum *comfortable* number of people 
in that space (any more and people would be in each other's way and 
complaining about how crowded the floor is, even though the El Beso 
crowd, relatively speaking, is a well-behaved lot).

This averages out to just about 1 sq. m. per person, right where the 
Buenos Aires bureaucrats who wrote the "What Constitutes a Milonga" law 
put it! So you could say that (a) they were right on the mark or (b) 
they were too conservative and organizers should be entitled to have a 
more crowded milonga if they want and if their customers are willing to 
put up with it, or (c) what business does the government have deciding 
what makes a milonga (especially considering that all the erudite 
Tango-L-ers cannot even agree on what constitutes *tango*)?

I'm with (c) personally, but I digress. Getting back to El Beso and its 
floor size ...

> Does the music dictate, i.e., could more 
> couples fit on the floor comfortably for a Canaro tango tanda, as 
> opposed to a waltz or milonga.

Of course the music has an effect. To take your example: Canaro tangos, 
valses and milongas would all be danced compactly, but the faster valses 
especially would tend to make things more complicated on a very crowded 
floor, especially if people are moving in unpredictable ways. Milonga 
can cover a lot of space (but doesn't have to) and done properly, 
especially with traspie, can be very maneuverable. So I wouldn't say 
that Tango vs. Vals vs. Milonga is the differentiator. The bigger effect 
is with the dramatic tangos (e.g., Pugliese) where one may *like* to 
have more space to interpret the music, and it may feel more crowded and 
constrained even with fewer people than it would with less dramatic 
music. (The music at El Beso tonight was totally devoid of anything 
resembling Pugliese or anything halfway dramatic (not even 50s Di 
Sarli), so it was not a factor.)

> Or, does it really depend on the 
> quality, experience and awareness of the dancers.

Yes for "quality." As long as "quality" is not the height of your boleo 
but rather your ability to control it; and not your ability to weave in 
and out of the crowd without hitting anyone but rather your ability to 
dance compactly and inoffensively to others while still interpreting the 
music well and having your partner enjoy herself.

Yes for "experience," if experience relates to experience on crowded 
milonga floors and not experience on a stage or experience practicing 
your latest big moves on an empty dance floor.

Yes for "awareness." Unqualified.

If you have good, "aware" and considerate dancers, you could get about 
50% more dancers on the floor before they start to get in each other's 
way. (It is a hypothetical and somewhat academic estimate, since I am 
not sure where one can find that combination for all or most dancers.)

> Also, is this size 
> typical (or average) of the many neighborhood clubs in Bs.As.

El Beso is a small space for a mainstream Milonga. There are others of a 
similar size, but most would be larger (there are even smaller spaces, 
but they are not likely to become mainstream). Oh, and El Beso would not 
be considered a "neigbourhood club" in the sense of "Milonga del 
barrio." It's a Milonga in the center--sure, that's a "neighbourhood" 
too, but the expression is used more for places in a neighbourhood that 
tend to get a regular crowd primarily from that neighbourhood. Those 
spaces are generally further out from the center (and are also generally 
larger).

Shahrukh

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 05:34:38 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 02:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
Message-ID: <660659.55807.qm@web52503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Keith writes:
>Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years 
>later (from the beginnings). 

The earliest known tango is "Dame la lata" by Juan Perez.  
It was written around 1880 or in the 1880's.  It had 
lyrics.  According to your assertion, tango music existed 
in 1840 and nobody ever sang to tango music until 1880.  Do 
you really think that is the case?



      

From c.roques at mchsi.com  Mon Aug  3 08:55:36 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:55:36 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <080320091255.21510.4A76DE480001BB9400005406223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Ming Mar wrote:

<<The earliest known tango is "Dame la lata" by Juan Perez.  
It was written around 1880 or in the 1880's.  It had 
lyrics.  According to your assertion, tango music existed 
in 1840 and nobody ever sang to tango music until 1880.  Do 
you really think that is the case?>>

There is probably no "first" tango.  For all anyone knows, it could have been a Neopolitan folk song played on the flute.  Like most music, tango was a hybrid of several musical styles that evolved, but Keith is correct about the lack of lyrics, although nothing is strictly black or white. There are exceptions but it is true that the first tangos were instrumentals, especially the ones that people were dancing to.  Songs with lyrics were always written but if you went to a dance in the early days you would not find a vocalist, just as if you find any very old recorded tangos, you will find few with lyrics.  Words were sometimes added after the fact, as in La Cumparsita and others, then gradually a few were written as dance tangos with lyrics.   As vocalists first began to appear though, their role was secondary and only added near the end or as back-up accompaniment or harmony to the orchestra (or quartet or whatever the size of the group.)  The words often didn't mean much other than to harmonize with the music.  They were known as estribillistas and often came in only at the end of the song, a tradition that persisted into the era of vocalists.  Notice that even many sung tangos have very long instrumental beginnings and often the verse is the last part of the song, and sometimes very short.  Over the years dance tangos with lyrics became more common but instrumentals continued to be written.  But even with lyrics, there was always a distinction between dance tangos and tangos to listen to.   Later vocalists (Angel Vargas, notably) were prized for their ability to be danceable.  If you take a taxi ride in Buenos Aires you will often hear "Todo Tango" on the radio playing many sung tangos that you will never hear at the milongas.

Cheers,
Charles


From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Aug  3 10:09:08 2009
From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:09:08 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
Message-ID: <19991379.1249308548687.JavaMail.root@ps31>

Do any recordings exist of "Dame la Lata?"

John Ward
Bristol, UK

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ming Mar" <ming_mar at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.


> 
> Keith writes:
>>Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years 
>>later (from the beginnings). 
> 
> The earliest known tango is "Dame la lata" by Juan Perez.  
> It was written around 1880 or in the 1880's.  It had 
> lyrics.  According to your assertion, tango music existed 
> in 1840 and nobody ever sang to tango music until 1880.  Do 
> you really think that is the case?
> 
> 
> 
>      
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l




How safe is your data? Find out more about the issues at Tiscali Security Centre -  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
_______________________________________________________________________


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  3 10:32:03 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:32:03 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Origin of tango - Candombes
Message-ID: <SNT115-W655DD687AFD3C270E0A3A5970F0@phx.gbl>



Around 1880, Gauchos (cowboys) that normally brought cattle to Buenos aires started to settle around the city.  
They brought with them,  their payadas and Milongas Camperas to the suburbs of the city. 
 
 Here they interacted with African slaves that had their own dances called Candombes.  The place where the Candombes took place Tambos or Tangos were called "Gathering place" or "Closed place" in their African language - They all interacted with dwellers of the periphery of the city of Aggressive Character called "Compadritos".  
 
>From the interaction of the Milonga, the Candombe and the Habanera (a dance brought by sailors from Cuba or from Spain by immigrants, plus the Tanguillo Espa?ol, ( a form of music and dance from Spain) Tango was born.  People started to use the word "Tango"in reference to the music and the dance that were being created.
 
The tango started as result of the Compadritos mockery of the black people's dances.   
 
The blacks danced separated as they did in africa but the compadritos danced with an embrace.
 
 Compadritos took the music and the dance to the brothels, where the dance was learned by men of middle class, or high class that patronized such places. These men eventually took the tango to Europe during their travels.
 
 
Small ensembles formed by flute, violin, and guitar gave the rural milonga a peculiar timbre that the first tangos would keep. These types of ensembles would also be present in the brothels, the gathering places of the compadritos, where the early tangos were first played. The tango?s features described above are characteristic of the period comprised between the tango?s origins and 1920. This period is also known as the age of the Guardia Vieja (Old Guard). During that time, the rural milonga survived as a countryside genre independent of the tango.
 
The characteristics of the rural milonga were present in the early tangos. El Choclo (1903) by angel Villoldo is a good example. El esquinazo, El porte?ito, are other examples. They all sound like milongas.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdNahs2sCOY&feature=related   Example of Candombe from san Telmo.
 
Blacks used to imitate important personalities (members of the armed forces, doctors, judges,members of the government, etc) in their dress and movements during the "llamadas" to a candombe. most of the time they borrowed discarded clothes from their owners, tuxedos, top hats, imitation jewelry, decoration medals, etc. Here at the beginning there are two such characters imitating doctors.
 
Best regards,
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 10:51:29 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 07:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
In-Reply-To: <080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
Message-ID: <776690.73267.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 8/2/09, jb34528 at att.net <jb34528 at att.net> wrote:
The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the
> close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
> For example, M & S did an underarm turn ? they did it
> ?tango like? IMHO. 

One or two underarm turns is okay for a little seasoning.  But 8? 16? 101?  How about the whole dance?  At that point, why not call it another dance since the character of the dance changes?

There's an argument that Argentines are not as nostalgic now, so the dance should also become happier.  If I wanted happy, I'd do milonga or vals.  I like the nostalgic, sadder, more introspective feeling of tango tango.  Why does this nostalgic feeling need to evolve into something happier?  As if, these sadder feeling are going to evolve out of existence?  A friend passes away.  I play Milonga Triste and dance out my sadness.

> I took a number of classes from Sebastian and Mariana and
> believe that what they teach and dance is tango. The
> ?non? nuevo?, especially its most conservative
> forms should be called historical tango. And a dance event
> imposing the conservative limits should be called historical
> milonga. This might be hard to take for those who made an
> emotional investment at the time of their initial
> indoctrination and never got over it.

I disagree with that.  Traditionalists don't stick with the "old style" because that's just the way it's been done for a hundred years more or less.  They stick with it because they like how it feels, this particular type connection.  Nuevo practitioners like another type of connection, but clearly their interest lies more in geometric forms and possibilities.  That's okay but it changes the character of the dance.  So why not call it something else?

Traditionalists aren't bothered by setting certain bounds, even if those bounds are unspecified.  Nuevo dancers do seem bothered by bounds, apparently.  That's a significant difference.  If nuevo dancers aren't willing to set bounds, then evolve it into something else.

Trini de Pittsburgh
 





      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  3 11:44:21 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:44:21 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Candombe and Murgas
Message-ID: <SNT115-W644AB78A9C59F62BAA6021970F0@phx.gbl>


The Argentine Murgas are groups that prepare dances and songs to perform and parade during Carnival.
 
The way they dress, sing and dance reminds me of the way the Candombes were done during the times after the independence of Argentina from Spain in 1810.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS7UPQIc6Ok
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  3 16:34:21 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:34:21 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
References: <080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<776690.73267.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <000e01ca1479$c8a8e270$59faa750$@net>

> The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the
> close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> and available space. I.e., they dance tango. 

What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".

Here in Colorado, if someone can only ski or snowboard on the groomed, flat slopes, we call them a "beginner".  When they can handle steeper slopes, we call them "intermediate", and when they can take on ANYTHING with confidence and grace, we call them "advanced/expert".

What do you call someone who can dance "milonguero", "salon", and "nuevo", with connection, expression and musicality, varying how they dance with the partner, the music, and the setting?  
The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment.  Although I am primarily interested in the man's role, I've had the opportunity of following some of them myself.  I have also benefitted from reading evaluations of many of these dancers from their partners in our workshops. The opinions expressed by these very experienced customers, ten- and fifteen-year dancers, when they speak of the dance encounters they have with these leaders, have "raised the bar" in my view when it comes to discussing what is possible in a social tango embrace.  I would call them "good social tango dancers".

Philosopher-author Ken Wilber spends his time querying the world-class experts in widely varying disciplines, seeking out the kernels of "truth" that their life's work has led them to discover.  One of his rules of thumb is "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise".  Lately we've heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango dancers on "style" grounds,  and I fear we are hearing a lot of people speaking outside their area of expertise without taking responsibility for doing so (imagine that! ;) ).

One of my tango teachers once said, "If there is something you cannot accomplish with your current skill level, and you tell yourself you are *choosing* not to perform it for *style* reasons, then to be truly honest you are not really making a choice." 

There have always been good social tango dancers - in crowded milongas, in tango/vals/milonga/whatever, in spacious practicas. We all want good dances, right? The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions.  If we are honest with ourselves, at some level, we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, right?  I suggest that we all know this is true, and it transcends "style" discussions.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you probably need to be more honest with yourself, or you probably need to get out more.

Similarly, there have always been social tango dancers who will be good someday if they keep working. And there are social tango dancers who don't want to work anymore to be better.  There's nothing wrong with this, of course - life is short, and everyone invests their time, energy and money as best they can in pursuit of tango happiness.  We're fortunate that we've all chosen a personal art form where there is so much happiness available at every skill level.  

Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it tango?" as if the point is to eliminate the good social tango dancers because they "speak more languages" than me.

In a social art form such as tango, we may well consider that someone's skill level and "language facility" might have significant bearing on the worth of their opinions, especially if they relentlessly and routinely criticize the "style choices" of others.  Something along the lines of "If THEY can do what I do, but I can't do what THEY do, maybe I should just shut up and dance".  After all, isn't it a lot easier for me to "lower the bar" to my current level, using "style" as a weapon of exclusion to eliminate my rivals, rather than to take on the work of improving my social tango to the point where everyone at the milonga always wants to dance with ME?

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"



From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 16:52:10 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:52:10 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
In-Reply-To: <000e01ca1479$c8a8e270$59faa750$@net>
References: <080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<776690.73267.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<000e01ca1479$c8a8e270$59faa750$@net>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0908031352i40887c79t4b76602b53ef6eb7@mail.gmail.com>

Brian, may I quote you on that?

I really fully believe all should re-read this and think... I use an
analogy of the Windows operating system.. but this, this is soo much
better.

2009/8/3 Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net>
>
> > The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the
> > close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> > and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
>
> What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".
>
> Here in Colorado, if someone can only ski or snowboard on the groomed, flat slopes, we call them a "beginner". ?When they can handle steeper slopes, we call them "intermediate", and when they can take on ANYTHING with confidence and grace, we call them "advanced/expert".
>
> What do you call someone who can dance "milonguero", "salon", and "nuevo", with connection, expression and musicality, varying how they dance with the partner, the music, and the setting?
> The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment. ?Although I am primarily interested in the man's role, I've had the opportunity of following some of them myself. ?I have also benefitted from reading evaluations of many of these dancers from their partners in our workshops. The opinions expressed by these very experienced customers, ten- and fifteen-year dancers, when they speak of the dance encounters they have with these leaders, have "raised the bar" in my view when it comes to discussing what is possible in a social tango embrace. ?I would call them "good social tango dancers".
>
> Philosopher-author Ken Wilber spends his time querying the world-class experts in widely varying disciplines, seeking out the kernels of "truth" that their life's work has led them to discover. ?One of his rules of thumb is "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise". ?Lately we've heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango dancers on "style" grounds, ?and I fear we are hearing a lot of people speaking outside their area of expertise without taking responsibility for doing so (imagine that! ;) ).
>
> One of my tango teachers once said, "If there is something you cannot accomplish with your current skill level, and you tell yourself you are *choosing* not to perform it for *style* reasons, then to be truly honest you are not really making a choice."
>
> There have always been good social tango dancers - in crowded milongas, in tango/vals/milonga/whatever, in spacious practicas. We all want good dances, right? The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions. ?If we are honest with ourselves, at some level, we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, right? ?I suggest that we all know this is true, and it transcends "style" discussions. ?If you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you probably need to be more honest with yourself, or you probably need to get out more.
>
> Similarly, there have always been social tango dancers who will be good someday if they keep working. And there are social tango dancers who don't want to work anymore to be better. ?There's nothing wrong with this, of course - life is short, and everyone invests their time, energy and money as best they can in pursuit of tango happiness. ?We're fortunate that we've all chosen a personal art form where there is so much happiness available at every skill level.
>
> Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it tango?" as if the point is to eliminate the good social tango dancers because they "speak more languages" than me.
>
> In a social art form such as tango, we may well consider that someone's skill level and "language facility" might have significant bearing on the worth of their opinions, especially if they relentlessly and routinely criticize the "style choices" of others. ?Something along the lines of "If THEY can do what I do, but I can't do what THEY do, maybe I should just shut up and dance". ?After all, isn't it a lot easier for me to "lower the bar" to my current level, using "style" as a weapon of exclusion to eliminate my rivals, rather than to take on the work of improving my social tango to the point where everyone at the milonga always wants to dance with ME?
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> www.danceoftheheart.com
> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 17:13:57 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
Message-ID: <292447.64902.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


John Ward writes:
>Do any recordings exist of "Dame la Lata?"

http://grupos.emagister.com/ficheros/vcruzada?idGrupo=1542&idFichero=105073



      

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 17:29:38 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:29:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
In-Reply-To: <292447.64902.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <292447.64902.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A7756C2.6010909@yahoo.com>

Mong, thanks for this...but I cannot get the song to play ( transferring 
data stalls)...if anyone can make this work, I'd really appreciate a 
post containing the track. thanks much,
Ilene

Ming Mar wrote:

>John Ward writes:
>  
>
>>Do any recordings exist of "Dame la Lata?"
>>    
>>
>
>http://grupos.emagister.com/ficheros/vcruzada?idGrupo=1542&idFichero=105073
>
>
>
>      
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 17:45:54 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0908031423o3375fc48y1c7210fc33c0ce49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <478225.61722.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


OK, I guess I should explain how to download the MP3 file of 
"Dame la lata."  On the page at

http://grupos.emagister.com/ficheros/vcruzada?idGrupo=1542&idFichero=105073

you'll see a box with an orange arrow pointing down.  In the 
box are a bunch of words ending with "click aqui" in blue.  
Click "click aqui" to start the download.



      

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 18:23:27 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0908031447g3f06f2b3g99ba71fac76bc57b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <658677.87206.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


OK, it's been pointed out you have to log in first.  Go to 

http://grupos.emagister.com/

for Email use:

b122128 at tyldd.com

for Contrasena use:

bugmenot

click on Acceder

then go to

http://grupos.emagister.com/ficheros/vcruzada?idGrupo=1542&idFichero=105073

look for the box with the orange arrow and click on the blue words "click aqui" 

It's a 1.24 MB file.



      

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  3 18:09:07 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:09:07 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Dame la lata
In-Reply-To: <478225.61722.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <478225.61722.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A776003.1010500@yahoo.com>

Ok..I had to register for the group and was then able to hear it. (I 
still havenl' seen the orange arrow for downloading).  Great! thanks so 
much.. it definitely sounds to me like those early milongas we've been 
talking about... thankyou!
I.

Ming Mar wrote:

>OK, I guess I should explain how to download the MP3 file of 
>"Dame la lata."  On the page at
>
>http://grupos.emagister.com/ficheros/vcruzada?idGrupo=1542&idFichero=105073
>
>you'll see a box with an orange arrow pointing down.  In the 
>box are a bunch of words ending with "click aqui" in blue.  
>Click "click aqui" to start the download.
>
>
>
>      
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From anton at alidas.com.au  Mon Aug  3 19:59:47 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:59:47 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
In-Reply-To: <000e01ca1479$c8a8e270$59faa750$@net>
References: <080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>	<776690.73267.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<000e01ca1479$c8a8e270$59faa750$@net>
Message-ID: <000301ca1496$7b63d2f0$722b78d0$@com.au>

I have no issue with the views of Brian Dunn. But in my opinion, it's not dealing with the fundamental problem facing many of us. 
I believe a milonga is a venue of social dance, not a forum for experts. In most fields including sports, experts interact with their peers in an environment of equality. When they engage people on a social level, they generally accommodate the lower level of expertise, or risk being labelled an exhibitionist or "show-off". Brian pays tribute to the civility of the young expert dancers of BA with " expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment." The thing is, that in BA they can also exercise their superior skills by choosing to attend a milonga suitable to their level of expertise. There's probably in excess of 15 milongas on any day of the week from which to choose. In Buenos Aires I select a milonga which plays the style of music I prefer, the style of dancing with which I'm comfortable and an ambience that arouses me. Sadly, for most of us, this isn't the case in our own Cities. Usually there's a clash of cultures, music preferences and dance styles. I imagine that practically no one gets what they want. Especially the new-to-tango beginner, whose couple of lessons have illustrated to him/her that after 30 or 40 years of moving themselves around the planet, they haven't mastered the art of walking yet. How do they feel dancing shoulder to shoulder with an expert demonstrating the high end of expertise? I can feel totally competent in a very crowded BA milonga of my choosing, without that peculiar, residual feeling of having to dance for the audience, when I get back to the open spaces of the milongas back home. 
Whilst I have a layman's interest in things science, I think I would fall asleep during a experts' discourse on quantum theory. Much the same goes for any discussion I have in any other language than English. Intellectually, I'm more akin to a door-stop. Yet I'm sensitive enough to know when I'm made to feel inferior. And I'm fairly certain dancing was never meant to be an intellectual exercise anyway. So I'm not altogether sure an expert's opinion really matters much. In my opinion the essence of dancing is feeling and we're all pretty well experts at that. No one can raise that bar for us.

Just my opinion
Anton



From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  4 07:47:47 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:47:47 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS44DF884E160D46BD53606AE0C0@phx.gbl>

Brian,


>"Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they 
>discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they 
>express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise".  Lately we've 
>heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango 
>dancers on "style" grounds,

You speak of different tangos and seem to suggest that just because
someone is a real and talented expert in several different tango forms that 
the average social
dancer should just bow down to these experts and we should bask in their
greatness and cater for their needs?  I disagree.


>Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it 
>tango?"


What you seem to dismiss, is that many people on this list, who have danced 
many
many more years than me and are expert at it, love a particular form of 
tango and the
traditions that go with them.   That is all they are asking.  If you want to 
go to a nuevo tango styled
event (eg Practica X) then find one and go for it.  If however, the
organiser promotes their event as a traditional Argentine tango
event where ganchos, leaps, and raising the leg above the knee line is
strictly prohibited, then the nuevo reformists should respect the
boundaries.  Where I came from, there are tango events catering for the
nuevo dancers and one had the freedom to go there if social tango was not
for them.  While you would think this would keep everyone happy, it was 
always the nuevo dancers who pushed the envelope trying to get their way.


>The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, ...... 
>we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, 
>?right?


You also talked about an envious factor.  I guess all dancers want to be
popular, but sometimes humility gets shunted aside.  As an example, in my 
salsa days a work
colleague of mine had a placing in the Australian salsa championships.  If
not for an old torn knee ligament injury he may have won.  He said to me 
once "I know
how good a dancer I am, because of all of the girls lining up to dance
with me."  Obviously to my eyes many women get a buzz from such a
testosterone filled attitude and wanted to dance with the best.  But my
reaction to this was somewhat different.

V

 


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  4 12:19:54 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:19:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 1
Message-ID: <956859.57890.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Peter Esser sent me an excellent email that he was unable to post on Tango-L due to formatting.  With his permission, I am posting it with some formatting modifications.

Hi Trini, sure, if you can figure a way to send it to the list, go right ahead. Could serve as "field research" if there are any thoughtful responses.  As a btw, I did some of this work as part of my dissertation (I went back to school after I retired).  What I sent you is an abbreviated version and, of course, the tango part is new.

Please add my name,
Peter Esser
(July 2009 -- Buenos Aires)
peterwesser at oregonducks.org


What is tango?
-------------- 

What is our conception of tango?
What would  a category called ?tango? look like? 
Is the traditional Argentine tango music an important element of the dance?
Is there such a thing as ?the real, authentic, prototypical tango??
Is all tango rooted in the Argentine tradition?


Why even ask such questions?
----------------------------

The point is, we do ask such questions directly and often inferentially, sometimes generating word fights and turf fights.

So, can we not simply defer to authority, in this case, let a venerable milonguero, or tango poet, or tango musician/composer steeped in the tradition, tell us ? this is tango, and this is not; and this is this style of tango?

Conversely we could go along with Humpty Dumpty who famously said: ?When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.?

Such an anything goes approach would, of course, render the concept tango meaningless. Yet, how can we deal with what seems a confusing situation, namely, that many different styles of dancing (even to different genres of music) are blithely lumped together and are called tango? 

Let?s take a look at what contemporary philosophers and cognitive scientists have to say about the why and what-fore of categories, and then try to structure a category tango.  This might go a long way to answer the above questions.


A little background on category research (in a somewhat short hand manner).
------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of the following is motivated by George Lakoff?s book ?Women, Fire and Dangerous Things.?   (This is the place to go for digging deeper into the subject).

Human beings must categorize, we couldn?t deal with all the myriad details without lumping together things ?that belong together,? that have certain properties in common.

We reason and make inferences on the basis of categories.  For the longest time, going back to the time of Aristotle, categories were thought to be unproblematic, one looked for the essential X that certain things have in common and this commonality then defined the category.  Interestingly, it was readily assumed that things out there in the world were already organized, already categorized and we could learn by and by this organization, put things in the proper category boxes.  There was no human contribution to this organization, the human mind did not contribute to understanding, to categorizing ? other than finding the ready-made. 

(In the case of tango, what would that common X be, what is the essence of tango, what do salon style, milonguero style, canyengue, nuevo tango, international/ball room tango, alternative tango, show tango, Finnish tango, etc. have in common?)

Ludwig Wittgenstein broke with the established notion of looking for ?the necessary and sufficient conditions? that supposedly define all members of a given category.  He argued for the ?family resemblance of things.?  In other words, instead of categorizing on the basis of a priori speculation we need to look and see.

According to Lakoff, Wittgenstein made a move in the right direction, but didn?t go far enough.  More recently, how we categorize has become a major field of study thanks to the pioneering work of Eleanor Rosh which started in the 1970s. 

Empirical research by cognitive scientists shows that our somatic interactions with the environment play an important role in how we categorize.  John Dewey anticipated this insight, for he argued that we humans are not a transparency, but we are a force.  We actively shape our world, our understanding of the world.   Some of us (individuals and groups large and small) sometimes do a good job, sometimes not.  

Back to Lakoff in our breathless manner.  Many categories, and consequently our concepts, are greatly influenced and shaped by culture and may change over time.  Not all members that inhabit a category (there are prototypes, ideal types, exemplars, social stereo types, and others) have equal weight from a cognitive perspective.  There are members that are better examples of a category.  These are called prototypes.

Prototypical examples of the category fruit are apples and oranges.  
Saws and hammers are prototypical tools.  Let?s not forget the cultural components and hemispheric view points of our categorizing. 
(What would be a prototypical member of the category tango?)

Part 2 to Follow


      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  4 12:27:57 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:27:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
Message-ID: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final


What a Radial Category of Tango might look like.
------------------------------------------------

The following is based on armchair field research.  

According to this writer?s experience and observations the category tango is made up of several models forming a cluster category.  
There is the close embrace model (salon/milonguero style), the canyengue model, the nuevo model all danced to traditional tango music with a strong participatory and social component.

A quick note on salon style and milonguero style.  Many dancers when they hear salon style they think of a traditional close embrace model.  Others have come to accept that this refers to a  somewhat open style of dancing, sort of in-between close and nuevo.  Carlos Gavito famously argued that there is no such thing as a milonguero style, yes, there are milongueros, but no milonguero style of dancing.  However, by now, the milonguero style has become an accepted concept and most tango dancers have an image what the term refers to, namely, close embrace dancing to traditional music..   

(We may be tempted to ask, what is tango music?   For our present purpose we can calmly say that we know it when we hear it and let us lump together tango, valse, milonga and maybe candombe of the golden age as traditional tango music).

These three models together form a cluster category, the main cluster. 
Seems that the close embrace tango as danced for a generation or longer in many clubs in Buenos Aires, and importantly, danced to traditional tango music, is the prototypical tango dance.  At it?s best, it?s a very intimate dance requiring utmost concentration and can make for an intense here and now experience.  The traditional codigos of the milonga contribute to the flavor of this prototypicality.

The canyengue model, also incorporating close embrace, is of an older vintage and is no longer pre-dominant, but is an important model for the tradition.  

The nuevo model is danced in an elastic, open embrace and emphasizes a more sporty attitude.  This model seems on the ascendancy. 
In short, the close embrace model, the canyengue model and the nuevo model form the main cluster of the tango category. 

Let?s remember that many categories, and consequently our concepts, are shaped by culture and as such may change over time.  Not all members that inhabit a category have equal weight from a cognitive perspective.  The close embrace model has the greater weight,  at least in Buenos Aires, and is the prototypical tango dance as of now.

The picture may be different in other parts of the world where possibly nuevo tango has became the prototypical model.  We would have to look and see.

One or more of these models motivates extensions, for instance, show tango, alternative tango, international/ball room tango, and Finnish tango and maybe others. 

Show tango is danced by professionals for an audience of onlookers often to traditional tango music.  It surely lacks the social, participatory aspect of tango dancing.

The alternative model is characterized by dancing tango steps to other genres of music.  This kind of dance sheds the connection with the tradition, with the traditional music, it?s a hybrid.

Ball room tango and Finnish tango are products of European cultures and have little, if any, resemblance to the tango as danced in the clubs of Buenos Aires. 

These models, these extensions seem removed from the central cluster of subcategories.  They are in an outer orbit.
 
The central close embrace model has recently spawned TangoZen, PsicoTango, and others.  If these are extensions, or simply clever promotional labels is an open question. 

Then there are metaphorical extensions, it takes two to tango, let?s tango on, etc. 


Back to our original questions.
-------------------------------

*What is our conception of tango?
As we saw, it depends who we ask.

*What would  a category called ?tango? look like?
We suggest that it is a complex radially structured category. 

*Is the traditional Argentine tango music the important element of the dance?
According to porte?o poets, and any porte?o/a we may ask, the answer is yes.  In fact, in their heart, the traditional music IS el tango, the dance is secondary.

*Is there such a thing as ?the real, authentic, prototypical tango??
We have suggested that the close embrace model is the prototypical model ?in Buenos Aires.

*Is all tango rooted in the Argentine tradition?
There seems to be little disagreement that this is the case, but some tangos have emerged, have evolved  that are far removed from the tradition and are for sure not Argentine tango.




      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  4 12:23:46 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:23:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 2
Message-ID: <705868.92386.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 2

A radial category structure.
----------------------------

How we human being categorize and conceptualize becomes rather complex as soon as we take the question seriously ?as we should. 
Lakoff and Mark Johnson, the latter who is Lakoff?s co-author of several books, tell us that there are four major principles that operate to organize the internal structure of a given category ? to wit, the propositional structure; the image schematic structure; metonymy; and metaphorical mappings.
 
All these details are most important and interesting at some level, but let?s forge ahead to look at what seems a  simple literal concept --mother.  That should be easy, no?

Following Lakoff, traditional theory should be able to give us necessary and sufficient conditions for this straightforward universal  concept.  After all everybody has a mother.  As it turns out just to say a woman who has given birth to a child is a mother doesn?t cut it.
We all know mothers for whom this definition does not apply.
The category mother is structured radially (please note, radical is something else) with respect to a number of subcategories.

According to empirical research the category mother is made up of a number of models forming a cluster category. Again, let?s take a deep breath and charge ahead.  There is the birth model, the genetic model, the nurturance model, the marital model, the genealogical model.  These together make up the central subcategory.  In other words, it defines the prototypical mother who is a female who gives the genetic material, gives birth to the baby, nurtures it, is the wife of the father and is the closest female relative. It?s an idealization that in the real world often does not come to pass.

Without spelling it out we can easily construct where one or the other model applies but not the other.  For instance, the birth mother may not also be the nurturing mother, etc.  Modern technology, such as artificial insemination, etc. have complicated the picture even further. 

One or more of these models motivates extensions, foster-, step-, unwed-, surrogate-, working-, single mother, etc.  
Lakoff suggests that there is a strong inclination to suggest that one of these models, let?s say the birth model, is the most important one.
But, not even writers of dictionaries can agree which is the real mother. 

We may assume that the different types of mothers have strong views on the matter.

Then there are the metaphorical extensions -- mother of all battles, mother of all evil, etc.

Is tango similarly structured, that is, structured radially with respect to a number of subcategories?  Lets look and see.


Part 3 to Follow



      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  4 13:08:54 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:08:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) Commentary
Message-ID: <600797.15386.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Hi all,

I?ve been mulling over Peter?s essay for the past couple of days and examined how we tend to use terms on this list.  For example, we tend to use ?traditionalist? to describe salon and milonguero styles and ?nuevo? specifically for nuevo.  Yet, we use ?Argentine Tango? to refer primarily to salon and milonguero styles, and if we include nuevo, we specifically say ?Nuevo?.  We?re already treating it differently.  I think that says something about how we map our internal world of tango.

There also comes the question of suppose I treat Nuevo as I do Milonga and Vals.  Then my requirements for accepting students into a nuevo class would be much less than they are now.  They would just need to know tango basics.  Really, one could teach Nuevo completely separately from salon or milonguero.  Isn?t that part of the point of Nuevo?  To make it more accessible?

So the assertion that Nuevo dancers are more expert than others is false.  It just happens that most of those learning nuevo in the past have been the more experienced dancers.  However, if we look around, people far less experienced than the experts are learning nuevo.  I know people in my community who are working on colgadas and they don?t even know how to do turns well.  Nor can they dance milonguero, well.  Again, it suggests that Nuevo, in and of itself, is not a more advanced form of tango.  In fact, I know several excellent nuevo teachers who do not really dance milonguero all that well.  They do okay, but it's not the same energy.

As for my own skill level, I do quite well as a follower in nuevo, including the double ganchos and lifts in S & M?s video.  I admit I can't get my leg as high as Mariana.  As a leader, I do fine with the typical nuevo moves, as well, and take advanced nuevo classes as a leader (though I probably wouldn't at a Chicho or Sebastian workshop).  For me, it?s not a question of skill level.  It?s simply recognizing that there?s a distinct difference.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  4 13:41:56 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) Addendum
In-Reply-To: <600797.15386.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <633372.4295.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Sorry for the additional post, but I should have stated that the phrase "Tango Categories" in the title was something I added and not part of Peter's original document.  I simply thought that it would be a nice designation so that readers can organize their emails and thoughts a bit more easily.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From anton at alidas.com.au  Tue Aug  4 20:11:54 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:11:54 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
In-Reply-To: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601ca1561$56ccbdf0$046639d0$@com.au>

Congratulations Peter Esser. Very interesting post. It's a really fascinating topic for me. Probably analy so.
>From the outset I'd like to say that most of the essay went over my head, so if I've drawn an incorrect perspective on some theories, please forgive me. But does it help me understand what tango is? Is there a difference between categorising and defining? For example if I crossed a tractor with a tricycle, would the outcome fall within both categories tractor and tricycle? Or simply under a broader cluster category such as machine. What effect on categorisation would additional data such as tractor category in existence for 100 years, tricycle category in existence 10 years? Would it simply remain in the general definition of the cluster? Whilst I've chosen an obviously idiotic example for purposes of illustration, surely everyone would agree that the resultant progeny would most likely not be pleasing to the young child or the farmer. But no doubt would produce devotees of the new form. So in my opinion categorisation doesn't answer the increasingly difficult questions of what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.

Anton



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  5 00:38:12 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
In-Reply-To: <000601ca1561$56ccbdf0$046639d0$@com.au>
References: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<000601ca1561$56ccbdf0$046639d0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <66510.89857.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Anton Stanley anton at alidas.com.au
?So in my opinion categorisation doesn't 
> answer the increasingly difficult questions of !
> what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.
> 

IMHO, this is getting a little silly and overly intellectualised.?

'Argentine Tango' is an Argentine artform and they have 2 categories - 
Social Tango and Tango Escenario. Most of us on this list are non-Argentine 
amateur dancers interested in Social Tango and, if you want to know what it?
is, just walk into any of the?20 or so milongas that are held every day in BsAs 
and you'll see people dancing Tango. It's not a secret; it's in the open for all 
to see.?In other parts of the city you might find dance events called practicas 
where people dance something called 'Nuevo'.?So if you want to categorise 
or define something, I suggest you change your question to 'What is Nuevo?' 
Is it a new category of Tango or is it something else? Just because people 
outside Argentina dance Nuevo in their milongas doesn't necessarily make 
it Tango. Tango is a dance of the Argentine people?and the tangueros of 
Argentina have already defined Social Tango by what they dance in their 
milongas. Who are we non-Argentines to even question that? 

Many social dancers outside Argentina also like to incorporate some 
well-known elements of Escenario, which were formerly part of Social 
Tango in BsAs,?such as Ganchos, Arristre, Lapiz, Sandwich, etc. They're 
combining?the 2 categories of Tango - Social and Escenario, so it's still 
Tango.

But, 'What is Nuevo' is the question, not 'What is Tango'

Jack


      



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Wed Aug  5 00:46:18 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 00:46:18 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
Message-ID: <4A790E9A.3080901@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Brian Dunn says:

> What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".

Nice post, Brian. Gave me lots of food for thought. Thanks.

However, I tend to identify with the "rebuttal" sentiments of Vince and 
Anton.

Yes, those who can dance with ease, grace, technical ability and 
musicality all the mainstream style of Tango are to be admired, perhaps 
even envied. However, these people are few and far between. When you add 
in the appropriate social graces to be popular as dance partners, the 
field is narrowed further, and when you add in the humility necessary 
for these "superstars" to fit into a social environment where they are 
not abusing their skills to the detriment of the enjoyment of others, 
it's a statistically insignificant number. Yes, they probably exist, and 
are well-deserving of their what I would assume to be their high 
popularity, but these "Tango Gods" (not self-proclaimed, of which there 
is no shortage) are too few to affect most communities.

Similarly, the phenomenon of "sour grapes" that you allude to 
(criticizing someone's style because one has not mastered it oneself) 
undoubtedly exists, but I really don't think is a mainstream phenomenon. 
As Vince says, perhaps they just "love a particular form of tango and 
the traditions that go with them."

So, to use your language metaphor, it's not that people criticize the 
true (and very, very rare) polyglots our of envy, but rather it's the 
person who just learned Japanese (for example) and thinks he's a hotshot 
because he speaks more Japanese than the others in the room (even though 
his English, which is his native language, is awful), and imposes 
himself upon the francophones (let's say), pours soy sauce into their 
Bordeaux, and calls them close-minded because they never really wanted 
to drink their wine that way and seem disinclined to change their views, 
whom they have the problem with.

> The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment.

But how do they function in a social setting? Can they make their 
partner feel good without being an annoyance to the rest of the people 
on the floor around them? Yes, some can and do, but many many of the 
"hotshots" have not developed these "social graces" (that would be the 
polite version), and it is unforgiveable in their case since they have 
more than sufficient technical skills to be able to do so and should be 
very cognizant of what the social environment calls for. Perhaps it's 
because they are almost always professionals and often feel that they 
need to stand out to the crowd (especially if they are young and not 
necessarily established, even if they are talented). This for me takes 
them closer to my definition of a performance dancer (who dances for 
everyone else EXCEPT his partner) rather than a social dancer (who 
dances primarily for his partner, while also respectful of the others 
with whom he is sharing the floor).

> Philosopher-author Ken Wilber [says] ... "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise"

Problem is that unlike, let's say, a sport like swimming, where someone 
who can swim 100 m faster than anyone else is by definition an expert, 
there is no accepted definition of expert in Tango. Very often, good 
marketing gets someone perceived as much more of an expert than he 
really is, and experts in one style are often scorned (perhaps 
close-mindedly, but who's to say?) by proponents of a different style. 
And Tango has more than its share of self-proclaimed experts. This is 
not to say that there aren't true Tango experts--clearly there are in a 
consensus sense. But identifying them, especially in the context of what 
is important to oneself (leaving aside the additional complication of 
what SHOULD BE important to oneself), is problematic at best.

Also, true experts tend to be multi-disciplinary and, as long as their 
claimed knowledge is not contaminated by arrogance, exhibit expertise in 
other fields that are not obviously related to the one which brought 
them their current renown. So I for one (or "for two," I guess, since 
Vince apparently agrees with me) would reject Mr. Wilber's thesis, at 
least in its generality.

> The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions.

I disagree: At least referring to the men, the really good SOCIAL 
dancers are the ones whom everyone would like to SHARE THE FLOOR WITH 
(including, of course, but NOT LIMITED TO, his partner).

Shahrukh

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  5 00:51:02 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 04:51:02 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango ? I
Message-ID: <SNT115-W49EDEFE7F73DD236E52A5C970D0@phx.gbl>


I would define tango as a ballroom dance, originated in Argentina. The music of this dance.
 
 The same as I would define Fox-trot as a ballroom dance originated in North America. The music of this dance.
 
 
1. A category is "any general or comprehensive division; a class. 

2. a classificatory division in any field of knowledge, as a phylum or any of its subdivisions in biology." 
 
 
So we know that Tango is one of the many ballroom dances, we know its origin and we know that it has a particular type of music.
 
>From here we can add more characteristics that separate this particular ballroom dance from the others.
 
We can say that its music is written in 2/4 or 4/4 but there are other ballroom dances that are written in 4/4, Fox-trot for instance.
 
We can say that it is a dance for couples. This means that two people dance with an embrace.
 
We can further define that the embrace can be open or closed or elastic . We can define each type of embrace.
 
We can say that it is asymmetrical, the man executes certain foot work while he leads the woman to execute different steps than his own. Most ballroom dances are symmetrical.
 
We can say that the dance is generally improvised but can also be choreograph.
 
We can say that it is characterized by the use of small step figures that are linked together to create a chain that is a particular tango.  It has in this way an infinite number of possibilities with respect to choreography. There is freedom to step whenever wished, to pose or to pause. Eventually every dancer develops his own style, a reflection  of his own personality.
 
We can say that it has two partners, one masculine that leads, one feminine that follows. (A woman may lead and a man follow adopting a masculine and feminine role respectively).
 
There is a special feeling for the music and for the partner. There is introspection, connection, surrendering of the woman to the man and from the man to the embrace, and from both to the music. A music that at times has a hypnotic effect on the dancers. We could define each one of those terms.
 
We can also say that there are different styles of tango .
 
Style is "a particular kind, sort, or type, as with reference to form, appearance, or character: the baroque style; The style of the house was too austere for their liking."
 
will continue,
 
Sergio 

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
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Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
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From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 01:18:34 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 01:18:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - ...
Message-ID: <60338.65.93.52.238.1249449514.squirrel@webmail8.pair.com>

I for one think Jack hit the nail smack on the head with his post.

What do they call it again when you stare at some words and they become,
through short contemplation, grotesque absurdities?

"What is tango" when asked by a tango dancer should get that person
banished to a milonga dj-ed by a person who only plays music that you've
never heard before because he thinks everyone should be tired of hearing
the same music over and over.

(I know of such a twisted individual. Without doubt, the World's Worst DJ).

:-)











From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au  Wed Aug  5 01:18:42 2009
From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:18:42 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
In-Reply-To: <4A790E9A.3080901@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <4A790E9A.3080901@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <4A791632.1030308@optusnet.com.au>

I have to take exception to what Mr. Merchant wrote.

tt's articulate, well-reasoned, and fair. Quite against the spirit of 
Tango_L.

I'm going to have to report him to the moderator.

rde


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  5 02:24:04 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 06:24:04 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango? II
Message-ID: <SNT115-W7C5317364EC23853961C2970D0@phx.gbl>


Style is:

a particular kind, sort, or type, as with reference to form, appearance, or character: the baroque style; The style of the house was too austere for their liking. 
 
When we talk of tango styles we have to say that there is an infinite number of tango styles, each person eventually dances his own style.
 
There are styles that are danced only by one person and there are styles that are danced by many persons.
 
There are styles that are very popular, and others that are a rarity.
 
What causes a style to become popular? - the fact that somebody starts to teach that particular style and creates a number of followers willing to dance in that particular form, and eventually to teach it to other dancers.
 
In Argentina people divide tango  1- as Salon : the one used for social dancing and 2- Stage, the one to use on stage for exhibitions.
 
Salon includes different styles, some rare, same very popular.
 
Tango tradicional as it is danced in my neighborhood of Villa Urquiza.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo  Elegant attire. Embrace in V. Close or open according to necessity.
 
Long steps. Use of firuletes (embellishments) boleos, amagues, ganchos, dibujos, walked turns with sacadas, etc.
Used for social dancing or for exhibitions. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE   Tango tradicional. Social dancing .
 
Estilo Milonguero 9Milonguero Style) : As danced in Downtown Buenos Aires.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylw2Qw20DOo  Formal attire, step length according to available space, usually small. Embrace is closed, it can be more framed in front of each other, the embrace is closed throughout the dance. Simpler steps adjusted to the lack of space and the close embrace. use of ocho cortado o milonguero.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOJls_t_VY&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0
 
Estilo Canyengue
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTGni9kGYM  A historical style, danced in time of my grand parents.
 
Embrace in V, more apilado, both partners looking in the same direction and to the floor in front of them.
 
Left hand of the man at waist level. Small, rhythmic steps. Improvised with a different choreography.
 
 
Tango Nuevo
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZq6sOLI0g  Semiformal or informal attire, style preferred by young people.
 
Open embrace, use of special technique for leading and following, use of unique technique for teaching, 
use of all the available firuletes (embellishments), utilization of a wide variety of tango music, non traditional and on occasions even non tango music.
 
Tango Elegante - Orlando Paiva - This would be a style that is not very popular. Orlando paiva is from Rosario, not from Buenos Aires it has taught in the USA, mostly in California and has a small group of followers in Argentina.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg   The gentleman with white hair dancing with the lady in violet dress. this is a very elegant variation of Tango tradicional.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA&feature=related  Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland in Villa Urquiza. Long steps, embellishments, formal attire, great elegance, long steps, stepping toes first.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009

From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 03:13:42 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:13:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango? II
Message-ID: <60698.65.93.52.238.1249456422.squirrel@webmail8.pair.com>

I'm a big fan of Sergio's postings. Can't help it.

In the last, which included all those videos, one jumped-out at me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo

In my heart of hearts, I wish more demonstration tango was shown this way.

They are doing a "show" - but it's tango-tango. Doing the fine-line thing
very well.

Nice choice of music.

The woman - I don't care if she doesn't have a name, I love her - can wrap
her arms around me any-old time.

The man is dancing tango. It isn't choreographed (he kind of almost misses
the ending) but it is true and I wish people around the world could see
this kind of thing.

I find this dance sweet. Doing a lot without struggling to. Making a show
without trying to. Etc.

Thanks, Sergio.

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 09:21:31 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:21:31 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
In-Reply-To: <66510.89857.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<000601ca1561$56ccbdf0$046639d0$@com.au>
	<66510.89857.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908050621w74bab107t94fa5fba2b86e0fe@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for this clarifying comment - as I observe all the ideas about
what "Tango is" - I think - for the most part, it is something to be
experienced and felt and "should" not be analyzed that much. Like , do
you wask ourselves "what is poetry?" or "what is the scent of a rose?
" or " what is making love?" - it is - and here a bit of a feminine
perspective - clearly, a very male approach trying to dissect almost
scientifically in the head that what is to be experienced and felt,
after all. because this is where the essence and beauty is, not in the
fragments or parts or steps, but in the experience of something much
more whole. As this is what compels us in the first place. recall that
first time seeing a Tango couple, ad the sense inside "WOW" - WHAT is
that?" THAT was a feeling, a sense of something one was fascinated and
could not quite grasp . .  . And while trying to figure out what it is
- bingo, one gets lost in the parts, steps, taking it apart to a
degree where then it is not longer what it is. Like what we see in
NUEVO. If you openly ask "What is Nuev?" versus "What is Tango" do you
think more people would be compelled reading about NUEVO, or reading
about TANGO? And why is that?? Finally, when you finally get it
"right" - then what? Are you gonna then "own" it? "DO" it better?
Even the best dancers in this world today - they have not "arrived" or
own it. They are still always rediscovering and advancing. And who do
they look for? To copy from whom? take classes from whom? No, those
people invent. Just like in any art, after knowing the basic
technique, it is about creativity. Imagination. That kind of outcome -
in my opinion - should not even be copied. But that is personal
perspective and everyone needs to decide that on their own.

Bettina

On 8/5/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Anton Stanley anton at alidas.com.au
>  So in my opinion categorisation doesn't
>> answer the increasingly difficult questions of !
>> what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.
>>
>
> IMHO, this is getting a little silly and overly intellectualised.
>
> 'Argentine Tango' is an Argentine artform and they have 2 categories -
> Social Tango and Tango Escenario. Most of us on this list are non-Argentine
> amateur dancers interested in Social Tango and, if you want to know what it
> is, just walk into any of the 20 or so milongas that are held every day in
> BsAs
> and you'll see people dancing Tango. It's not a secret; it's in the open for
> all
> to see. In other parts of the city you might find dance events called
> practicas
> where people dance something called 'Nuevo'. So if you want to categorise
> or define something, I suggest you change your question to 'What is Nuevo?'
> Is it a new category of Tango or is it something else? Just because people
> outside Argentina dance Nuevo in their milongas doesn't necessarily make
> it Tango. Tango is a dance of the Argentine people and the tangueros of
> Argentina have already defined Social Tango by what they dance in their
> milongas. Who are we non-Argentines to even question that?
>
> Many social dancers outside Argentina also like to incorporate some
> well-known elements of Escenario, which were formerly part of Social
> Tango in BsAs, such as Ganchos, Arristre, Lapiz, Sandwich, etc. They're
> combining the 2 categories of Tango - Social and Escenario, so it's still
> Tango.
>
> But, 'What is Nuevo' is the question, not 'What is Tango'
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  5 09:45:31 2009
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908050621w74bab107t94fa5fba2b86e0fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <740935.63600.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<000601ca1561$56ccbdf0$046639d0$@com.au>
	<66510.89857.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908050621w74bab107t94fa5fba2b86e0fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <255968.55283.qm@web32008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you Bettina for writing what I imagine many are thinking to themselves. 
I would only like to add that tango is musical, lyrical, and dance expression of the culture which gave it and continues to give it its essence and so it evolves as the culture does.
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 09:45:15 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:45:15 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango ? - to be continued . .
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908050645k3972dfdfvf08b713dddf32afc@mail.gmail.com>

And, every definition is a limitation. As it is based on subjectivity.
Firstly, Tango is not "ballroom"  and has never been and Tango that is
danced in Ballrooms (not in Argentina anyway) is not really Tango.
Tango originated in the streets, stayed there for the most pasrt and
then had its place in the Milongas, that are no Ballrooms. From there,
in its most advanced art form,  it found its place onto the stages of
the world.

 Second, there is no such manual existing that limits it in any way,
that justifies really a definition, more than just the fact of the
basic few steps, the embrace and the music as the very cornerstones.
The rest is still invention. The reality is, it is a dance between 2
people, that,  offers the freedom for improvisation and imagination
between those two.

Finally - as food for thought - I personally do ask why everyone
thinks it is "Argentine" : much of the music originates of the Black
culture that was "imported" slave labor there at the time (rhythm),
the bandoneon came from Germany (that much for the soul of a german
that invented those kind of strings), and those compadritos for the
most part were Italians and Spaniards (passion and nostalgia)  . . .
Most women in those bordellos were "imports" from Russia, Italy, Spain
and so forth. There were actually only few "real" Argentines, as still
today those Argentines are missing a true identity as they are
Immigrants for the most part (over 70%).

So to be technically accurate - maybe Tango was a true world dance? A
mix of many elements that assembled themselves in that part of the
world. Even Gardel was Uruguayan. Astor Piazzolla was born of Italian
Immigrants but moved to NY at the age of 4.
Yes it happened to take place at the Rio de La Plata in Buenos Aires.
Maybe now, Tango takes its place where it belongs, back all over the
world?

Finally - there are as many "styles" as individual couples dancing
when you look at the dance floor. Every close definition is a
limitation to that what Tango is.

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 10:07:48 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:07:48 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  What is Tango?
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908050707i2ab506a3oeb7c3dcb1336a355@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:07:15 -0300
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
To: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com>

Thank you! The only question really is that the culture at that time
in Argentina was a mix of many cultures, the fact that all those
thousands of Immigrants arrived and had no work, being stuck in the
streets created the very base for the Tango . . . I love that you say
it is lyrical and musical . . .

On 8/5/09, Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you Bettina for writing what I imagine many are thinking to
> themselves.
> I would only like to add that tango is musical, lyrical, and dance
> expression of the culture which gave it and continues to give it its essence
> and so it evolves as the culture does.
> ===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Aug  5 10:37:01 2009
From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:37:01 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango?  (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
Message-ID: <22437288.1249483021623.JavaMail.root@ps32.mc.tiscali.sys>

Combined tractor/tricycles do exist. Look at these pics:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=3808910

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2423/3626840725_cf66454fd8.jpg
.
http://www.fowlkesrealtyandauction.com/images/1918-case-3-wheel-rare.
jpg

John Ward
Bristol, UK




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton at alidas.com.au>
To: <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 
Final
(part)


 For example if I crossed a tractor with a tricycle, would the outcome 
fall
within both categories tractor and tricycle?




How safe is your data? Find out more about the issues at Tiscali Security Centre -  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
_______________________________________________________________________


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  5 11:45:26 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:45:26 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Message-ID: <SNT115-W7797C154AE457D48C86E9970D0@phx.gbl>


Bettina says:  
 
"Finally - as food for thought - I personally do ask why everyonethinks it is "Argentine" : much of the music 
originates of the Black culture that was "imported" slave labor there at the time (rhythm),the bandoneon came from Germany (that much for the soul of a germanthat invented those kind of strings), and those compadritos for the most part were Italians and Spaniards (passion and nostalgia) . . .Most women in those bordellos were "imports" from Russia, Italy, Spainand so forth. There were actually only few "real" Argentines, as stilltoday those Argentines are missing a true identity as they areImmigrants for the most part (over 70%)."
 
 
Dear Bettina,  Food for thought? I think that it is rather for an indigestion.

 
            The music was composed by Argentines, born on Argentine soil, that music is a reflection of the Argentine culture.  Most of the musicians were first generation Argentines, descendants of Italian Immigrants.
 
The music is soo Argentine that although musicians of almost every country have composed tangos, none of them sound Argentine, and you immediately recognize them as foreign. (Many of them are beautiful tangos, like Jealousy, composed by the Danish composer Gades).I have a colection of Turkish, American, japanese, Russian, French, Italian, etc, tangos.
 
If tango was the creation of 'Black or Europeans' it would have been born in Africa or in Europe, but it did not happen that way, it was created in Argentina, the only place, where it could be born.
 
 The same way as Samba was created in Brazil, Cumbia in Colombia, Rumba, Bolero, Mambo, in Cuba, Fox-trot, swing, Blues, Country Western in the USA. Salsa in Puerto Rico, Merengue in the Dominican Republic.
Polka in the Czech Republic and Waltz in Austria. Fado in Portugal and Rebetika in Greece.
 
Each dance is a reflection of the culture that originated it.  
 
The bandoneon came from Germany, (Bandoneon, by the way dear Bettina is not a string instrument), the guitar from Spain,the violin, the bass, the flute, the piano came from other places.   You can put all those instruments and all the ones that exist in the world together in some other place than Argentina and Tango will not be created. The same as Jazz could not be created outside the USA. ( I mean originaly).
 
The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil.  The women in the bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the tango. They danced with their clients.
 
Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
 
North Americans were also born on American soil, it does not matter were their ancestors came from, they were nurtured by a strong culture different from any in the world. A unique culture that originated some of the most interesting music of the world.  
 
Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they are.
 
Summary: Tango is as Argentine, as the other music an dances belong to the cultures that originated them
 
         Tango has a Universal appeal, that does not make it less Argentine.
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. 
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009

From azure.music at verizon.net  Wed Aug  5 13:00:15 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:00:15 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W7797C154AE457D48C86E9970D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C69F32DF.6A461%azure.music@verizon.net>

One word jazz. Totally American in its' roots melded also a fusion music.
Ok two words rock and roll. Make that three and four bluegrass and blues.
All a product of fusions all distinctly American. Which is the definition of
cultural fusion being an immigrant based country.
That's why the tango is Argentine. It is what is known in the
ethnomusicological field as colonized people's music. The circumstances in
play to create each unique fusion would not have been present in any other
part of the world based on our history as a species. Consider it the musical
equivalent of Darwin's evolutionary concept.
_AJ



From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  5 13:23:36 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Practical Implications
Message-ID: <582227.18254.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hello all,

The question, for me, of what defines tango or nuevo tango is not simply an intellectual one.  I?m a teacher and organizer.  What I do or say influences others, sets standards, etc.  It?s a responsibility I take seriously.  

Last week, a local DJ announced that his monthly milonga was going to be all alternative music.  He indicated that it was the younger (2-3 year dancers) that were requesting such music.  My initial reaction was not to go because 1) I can only take so much of alternative music for Argentine Tango, 2) There are few leaders that I like dancing alternative to, 3) It?s painful for me to watch Argentine tango brutalized.

Yet I do want to be supportive of the milonga.  Not everyone, such as those younger dancers, can appreciate the Golden Age as I do.  The space is certainly big enough to accommodate big movements.  Through these discussions, though, it?s clear to me that while mainstream nuevo is still Argentine Tango, I can see the day when extreme nuevo may no longer be recognizable as a the same animal.  If we take the concept of radial categories with a cluster category and other categories orbiting around like the planets, then Nuevo might just go further away into outer orbit.  Ultimately, it?s the nuevo dancers who will decide this.

But what will they decide?  The current mantra of ?anything goes? is something early nuevo dancers used to justify their developments.  However, that mantra has really lived out its usefulness if nuevo dancers still want to be considered Argentine Tango.  I think nuevo dancers need to define the style more clearly or simply recognize that it may one day become something completely different.  Salon and milonguero styles are still the prototypical styles and, I suspect, will be for a long time.  The rise of alternative milongas have served to meet needs of those dancers.  As someone said, it is when nuevo dancers try to force their views on traditionalists that causes the problems nowadays.  Used to be the other way around. 

So I?ve decided to go to the alternative milonga and to think of nuevo as now developing in tandem with the other styles, not as an extension of them.  In fact, I will encourage people to go and stretch themselves.  Incorporate salsa, swing, bellydancing, whatever suits their fancy, but also let them know that by doing so, they might be creating something that gets farther away from Argentine Tango.  And that?s okay.  As long as they know that they may be doing something that?s not Argentine Tango.  Maybe it?s just becomes Pittsburgh Tango.  I think that I will have a pretty good time.

Trini de Pittsburgh

P.S.  Bravo, Sergio.




      


From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 17:25:39 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W7797C154AE457D48C86E9970D0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W7797C154AE457D48C86E9970D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908051425k3ed25658mcfc7d969037ada79@mail.gmail.com>

Sergio, I do not question that today Argentine Tango has its roots in
Argentina. But I nevertheless want to point out that in those days,
when the Tango originated, those "Argentines" were to the most part
Immigrants, speaking all the nationalities that nowadays Argentineans
seem proud to refer back to, Like Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia,
Poland and so forth. They cam in those days Tango was born as well. In
those days, this country was vastly empty and those foreigners were
lured by the upper classes to come to Argentina. It was those people,
mixed with elements they found in Argentina (the rhythm of the Blacks,
the knife fight elements in the steps of the gauchos etc),

What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
of the elements that developed in Tango.

Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
:-)

What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation  in the upper
class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . ..  shown by the rich boys
who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?

Sergio:
> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil.  The women in the
> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the
> tango. They danced with their clients.
>
> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world
> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct
> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.

> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they
> are."

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 18:43:41 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:43:41 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908051543y7c6d349eic3cb2144ef30438c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT115-W7797C154AE457D48C86E9970D0@phx.gbl>
	<C69F32DF.6A461%azure.music@verizon.net>
	<a6baf9ab0908051543y7c6d349eic3cb2144ef30438c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908051543q4213afd7k6bf62edb44553e35@mail.gmail.com>

 So maybe, rather than
call it Argentine it is in reality "colonized people's music and
dance" ? - finally, many of the lyrics are about those missed Loved
one's at home . . . " Who could sing that? An aching Italian having
left his family at home being shipped off to the end of the world and
have no money to come back home? What about acknowledging that Italian
in those lyrics . . . ?

in the conversation about identity and roots, isn't that still fueled
by the desire to still find identity - so, where is it? -  isn't it a
rather human question of many people's being spread all over the globe
and separated - like as the Tango in Finland gives expression to that
? So the definition of "Argentinean by origin", mainly today, is
really a mix of "colonized people" that got "imported" based on the
idea - of the class in charge - to define the future of Argentina by
European standards, rather than their own Indian heritage, while the
true inhabitants of Argentina, just like in America, got killed off by
those perpetrators. So the question of "true identity" in Argentina is
a real question, especially in the younger generation.  On the other
hand, what may be "truly" Argentinean today, maybe simply the very
fact of its very mix of many cultures into one melting pot.

From azure.music at verizon.net  Wed Aug  5 19:17:11 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:17:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908051425k3ed25658mcfc7d969037ada79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>


If anything the sounds  hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
a  waltz or a polka.

 Take this from someone who has studied music and its' connected cultures
for 25 years and after all it is a music first and a dance second. By the
way my mother having grown up in Argentina, the girls were more likely to
learn flamenco than anything else. Spanish culture with an Italian twist is
the predominant cultural trait. They'd all be eating brat wurst and goose
stepping were this not the case.

Like in the US there are infleunces and then there are dominant roots.
Mediterranean roots Europe are the strongest in Argentina.


-Adriel



> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
> To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>, Tango-L
> <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> 
> Sergio, I do not question that today Argentine Tango has its roots in
> Argentina. But I nevertheless want to point out that in those days,
> when the Tango originated, those "Argentines" were to the most part
> Immigrants, speaking all the nationalities that nowadays Argentineans
> seem proud to refer back to, Like Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia,
> Poland and so forth. They cam in those days Tango was born as well. In
> those days, this country was vastly empty and those foreigners were
> lured by the upper classes to come to Argentina. It was those people,
> mixed with elements they found in Argentina (the rhythm of the Blacks,
> the knife fight elements in the steps of the gauchos etc),
> 
> What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
> 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
> passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
> danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
> clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
> of the elements that developed in Tango.
> 
> Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
> certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
> originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
> :-)
> 
> What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
> ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
> massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
> Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
> the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
> from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
> beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
> Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
> in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation  in the upper
> class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . ..  shown by the rich boys
> who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
> it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
> 
> Sergio:
>> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil.  The women in the
>> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the
>> tango. They danced with their clients.
>> 
>> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world
>> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct
>> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
> 
>> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they
>> are."
> _______________________________________________



From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 19:38:22 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:38:22 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Beautiful Guestroom for Rent in Buenos Aires!
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908051638k29b82e93nf135180540873cd2@mail.gmail.com>

Hola Tango Dancers,

       I have a beautiful guest room for rent in Buenos Aires, 10 min
by foot from Palermo Hollywood and many Milongas!

Openings: September 11th - October 6th; November 7th - end of January 2010
Rent: US$ 650/ month; US$ 200/ week; US$ 35/day - 3 days minimum

For more info and images, contact:
Bettina Maria
e-mail:  bettinamaria7 at gmail.com

From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 19:43:05 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:43:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
References: <a6baf9ab0908051425k3ed25658mcfc7d969037ada79@mail.gmail.com>   
	<C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <61656.65.93.195.175.1249515785.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

AJ wrote:

> Germany is by far the most removed of the influences.

Of course one understands what Al meant and I do not wish to quibble.

However ...

Herr Band's little "improvement" on his accordion, which became the pillar
and soul of the tango when it arrived in Argentina, ought to be a crucial
modifier in what his statement implies. Methinks.






From nina at earthnet.net  Wed Aug  5 19:49:34 2009
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:49:34 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
References: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>

Hello, everyone.

Interesting discussion.

Is tango sensual?  It can be, but does not have to.

Is it passionate?  It can be, but does not have to, and does not need to be. 
It is difficult at times to participate in something sensual or passionate 
on cue.

I am convinced that this discussion and many others have been influenced by 
an absence of at least two factors.

First, it is important to understand that throughout the century of 
development of tango music and dance, women were valued much more than they 
are now.  Sorry ladies, but women are now dime a dozen and all are hungry to 
dance.  Those who know tango well as a dance, know that men created the 
movements to please the women.  The dance was created because of the women 
and for them and in no authentic movement of tango, salon, milonguero, 
fantasia, stage, etc., is the woman and her movement is secondary.

This factor is lost in the current tango experience of most.  The quantity 
of dancing women has devalued their presence for the men.  As a consequence, 
the social culture of the dance has sufferred.  Neither men nor women 
actually know experientially the emotional content of the dance at a time 
where women were not so available.

The second important factor to consider is not just that there were many 
European influences, but that tango actually belongs to the immigrant 
culture (of Argentina), which is much different than the pure influences of 
other, well-defined cultures.

Immigrants are different people, regardless where they came from.  They 
embrace and reject cultural values and rules according to different sets of 
perceptions.  Immigrant cultures remain illusive to those who do not belong 
to them.  Immigrants are a different kind of people, regardless from what 
country they came from.  They are different from those who remain in those 
countries.  I don't know if it is the psychological makeup, the personality 
or the emotional content that makes immigrants different, but they are very 
different.

We will never know what the immigrant culture of the time was in Argentina 
and we will never know what exactly were the perceptions.  But what is very 
clear in tango music and dance is that the immigrant culture allowed people 
tremendous creativity that may not have been nurtured by any one defined 
culture.  It is that creativity, that harmonious blend of many influences 
that we feel now, dancing again and again to the same recordings a thousand 
times.  These things cannot be taken apart.  The best that we can do is 
honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all.

All the best,

Nina



>> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
>> To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>, Tango-L
>> <Tango-L at mit.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>>
>>>> What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
>> 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
>> passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
>> danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
>> clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
>> of the elements that developed in Tango.
>>
>> Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
>> certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
>> originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
>> :-)
>>
>> What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
>> ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
>> massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
>> Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
>> the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
>> from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
>> beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
>> Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
>> in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation  in the upper
>> class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . ..  shown by the rich boys
>> who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
>> it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
>>
>> Sergio:
>>> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil.  The women in 
>>> the
>>> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create 
>>> the
>>> tango. They danced with their clients.
>>>
>>> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the 
>>> world
>>> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a 
>>> distinct
>>> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
>>
>>> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who 
>>> they
>>> are."
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
> 


From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 20:05:21 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
References: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>   
	<B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
Message-ID: <61929.65.93.195.175.1249517121.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

Nina's post was interesting to read. But, exasperating.

I hope other women (and men) don't believe it has currency.

I, of course, can only speak for myself. But I believe most men who can
dance tango reading her post would want - like me - to run grovelling to
every woman partner in the Universe protesting her every word about women
are a dime-a-dozen and all that.

Nina's view is her view.

It ain't that way at all looking through a man's eyes.







From azure.music at verizon.net  Wed Aug  5 20:51:29 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:51:29 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <61656.65.93.195.175.1249515785.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
Message-ID: <C69FA151.6A51B%azure.music@verizon.net>

Tango would have been tango even on kazoo.
Guitar is considerably more Spanish than bandoneon at the root level of the
culture origin. Gardel is guitar based not bandoneon. That said bandoneon
like the secondary cultures did have an important impact in the following
tango eras.

As a general rule instruments do not make the style they are only vehicles
for expressing the style.

A-


> From: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>
> Reply-To: <keith at totango.net>
> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:43:05 -0400 (EDT)
> To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> 
> AJ wrote:
> 
>> Germany is by far the most removed of the influences.
> 
> Of course one understands what Al meant and I do not wish to quibble.
> 
> However ...
> 
> Herr Band's little "improvement" on his accordion, which became the pillar
> and soul of the tango when it arrived in Argentina, ought to be a crucial
> modifier in what his statement implies. Methinks.
> 
> 
> 



From anton at alidas.com.au  Wed Aug  5 21:15:32 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:15:32 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
References: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
	<B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
Message-ID: <001001ca1633$64f54820$2edfd860$@com.au>

>From the posts, it's amazing the number of tango perceptions that exist.
Each 100% correct. Please stand up the person who has the authority to
contradict any of them. There truly is a land of Oz.
Nina's post, like many others, absolutely makes wonderful sense. I just
cannot bring myself to accept her closing line - " The best that we can do
is 
honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all." 
USA, the home of baseball! Practically in the DNA of every citizen. An
activity awash with the influence of immigrants from around the world. An
activity that eventually became appealing to other nations and cultures. The
country sent its best teachers to help the enthusiastic pockets of
practioners in these other nations. Over time the cultural imperatives of
the individual nations began to impinge on the activity. One nation felt it
was better to reduce the distance between the bases to accommodate their
dress code of long ground level robes. Another nation felt that the
symbolism of a double triangle could offend their religious beliefs, so
implemented a circular pattern of bases. Another banned the participation of
women, even as spectators. Yet another decided that using a hard ball was an
unacceptable risk and hence allowed only soft balls to be used. An
enthusiastic cricketing nation decided that already having a plethora of
straight faced bats, they would ban the use of round bats. Etc etc etc. But
the good news was that American baseball was everywhere! Call it nuevo
American baseball or the evolution of American baseball, with my cricket bat
under my arm, I'm off to the States to show 'em how to play ball!

PS: Any reference to places or cultures real or imagined is purely
accidental and fictitious and not intended to offend any progressives,
reactionaries, fanatics, purists or fundamentalists. 


Anton


From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 21:38:37 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 21:38:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <C69FA151.6A51B%azure.music@verizon.net>
References: <61656.65.93.195.175.1249515785.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
	<C69FA151.6A51B%azure.music@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <60076.65.93.195.175.1249522717.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

AJ:

> Tango would have been tango even on kazoo.


Gasp

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 21:39:07 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 22:39:07 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
References: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
	<B735DF188EBA4D26B9A20E14A0F2FC06@laptop4018c244>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908051839v790c936bvc017dc4cf40c3a23@mail.gmail.com>

Nina, thanks for the shared view on the Immigrant factor.

From keith at totango.net  Wed Aug  5 22:25:10 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 22:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Call for Kazoo Players
Message-ID: <60261.65.93.195.175.1249525510.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

Need to record 5,000 tango, vals, milongas songs as a start toward making
Argentine tango music sound like it would if that bandoneon thingy had
stayed home in Germany and left us alone.

Dance experience not necessary, of course.

No need to have correct pitch, we can fix that in the mix.


TSPOERS

(The Stupidest People On Earth Recording Society)






From azure.music at verizon.net  Wed Aug  5 23:01:05 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 23:01:05 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Call for Kazoo Players
In-Reply-To: <60261.65.93.195.175.1249525510.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
Message-ID: <C69FBFB1.6A546%azure.music@verizon.net>

Wwow that was dumb.

Shouldn't that be the stupidest posters on earth responder society?

And your ethnomusicological degree is from?


> From: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>
> Reply-To: <keith at totango.net>
> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
> To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Call for Kazoo Players
> 
> Need to record 5,000 tango, vals, milongas songs as a start toward making
> Argentine tango music sound like it would if that bandoneon thingy had
> stayed home in Germany and left us alone.
> 
> Dance experience not necessary, of course.
> 
> No need to have correct pitch, we can fix that in the mix.
> 
> 
> TSPOERS
> 
> (The Stupidest People On Earth Recording Society)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  6 12:34:01 2009
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:34:01 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
References: <C69F8B37.6A4E7%azure.music@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4A7B05F9.30605@yahoo.com>

don't forget the eastern europeans who had enormous influence on the 
music... particularly the virtuoso violinists, not to mention the many 
eastern european lineage composers who gave us much of the music...

Ilene

AJ Azure wrote:

>If anything the sounds  hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
>in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
>influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
>a  waltz or a polka.
>
>
>  
>
>
>  
>

From azure.music at verizon.net  Thu Aug  6 14:03:03 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:03:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <4A7B05F9.30605@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C6A09317.6A5FC%azure.music@verizon.net>


Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
back, i.e. the spice trail.
_Adriel

> From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia at yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:34:01 -0400
> To: Adriel Azure <azure.music at verizon.net>
> Cc: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>, Sergio Vandekier
> <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>, Tango-L <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> 
> don't forget the eastern europeans who had enormous influence on the
> music... particularly the virtuoso violinists, not to mention the many
> eastern european lineage composers who gave us much of the music...
> 
> Ilene
> 
> AJ Azure wrote:
> 
>> If anything the sounds  hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
>> in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
>> influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
>> a  waltz or a polka.
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From natiber at charter.net  Thu Aug  6 14:18:44 2009
From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:18:44 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
Message-ID: <83D70AD6-B9AC-4283-8020-B787F9D4E669@charter.net>

A. J. Azure?s iintriguing post regarding ?cultural fusion? in America  
began with ?one word jazz.? IMHO, the odyssey should begin with ?one  
word ragtime.?
In addition, it is interesting to note the similarities in  
?circumstances? (i.e. influence of black music and large immigrant  
populations) that led, during the beginning of the 20th century, to  
tango music/dance in Argentina and ragtime music/dance in America.  
Both set off a music/dance craze that spread around the world.


From c.roques at mchsi.com  Thu Aug  6 14:58:09 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:58:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Message-ID: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

<<<Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
back, i.e. the spice trail.>>>

Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes with this line of thought and is missing Sergio's very valid point; that is wasn't so much the original Indo/European cultures that produced tango.  It was the mixing together of these cultures once they were in the New World in a way that would not have happened back in the Old World. Tango did not come from those origins; tango is a New World product that came from Argentina. It is not a Sephardic or Indian folk dance. You can't just keep tracing back farther and farther. (The English language has roots in Sanskrit but that doesn't mean it is Indian.) If that were the case, you could carry this back to the Neanderthals and to the caves at Altamira (in Spain) and look for tangueros on the walls.  Hybridization occurs because of several factors, but place and time (and timing) are probably two of the most important ones.

Cheers,
Charles


From azure.music at verizon.net  Thu Aug  6 15:16:09 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:16:09 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
In-Reply-To: <83D70AD6-B9AC-4283-8020-B787F9D4E669@charter.net>
Message-ID: <C6A0A439.6A627%azure.music@verizon.net>

Yep!


> From: Norman Tiber <natiber at charter.net>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:18:44 -0700
> To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
> 
> A. J. Azure?s iintriguing post regarding ?cultural fusion? in America
> began with ?one word jazz.? IMHO, the odyssey should begin with ?one
> word ragtime.?
> In addition, it is interesting to note the similarities in
> ?circumstances? (i.e. influence of black music and large immigrant
> populations) that led, during the beginning of the 20th century, to
> tango music/dance in Argentina and ragtime music/dance in America.
> Both set off a music/dance craze that spread around the world.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l




From azure.music at verizon.net  Thu Aug  6 15:22:38 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:22:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <C6A0A5BE.6A62A%azure.music@verizon.net>

We're talking musical origin not dance origin. Apples and other apples ;)
The musical reference serves the point that new influence mutated the form
so in that sense it's the dance but, if you refer back I was talking about
the music. No one is saying that IS Indian or gypsy but, you can identify
stronger flavors in a style of fusion. It's about studying grades of nuance
not slap in the face obviousness in the music.
-Adriel


> From: <c.roques at mchsi.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:58:09 +0000
> To: <TANGO-L at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> 
> <<<Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
> Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
> back, i.e. the spice trail.>>>
> 
> Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes
> with this line of thought and is missing Sergio's very valid point; that is
> wasn't so much the original Indo/European cultures that produced tango.  It
> was the mixing together of these cultures once they were in the New World in a
> way that would not have happened back in the Old World. Tango did not come
> from those origins; tango is a New World product that came from Argentina. It
> is not a Sephardic or Indian folk dance. You can't just keep tracing back
> farther and farther. (The English language has roots in Sanskrit but that
> doesn't mean it is Indian.) If that were the case, you could carry this back
> to the Neanderthals and to the caves at Altamira (in Spain) and look for
> tangueros on the walls.  Hybridization occurs because of several factors, but
> place and time (and timing) are probably two of the most important ones.
> 
> Cheers,
> Charles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 15:34:24 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 16:34:24 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908061234q66075472se05c8f28f006ccf4@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you everyone engaged here in this quite enlightening and
humorous and interesting conversation! I get one thing from it - it is
not all as black and white as some folks may want to think it is,
Tango is a large mystery and it circles all around CONNECTION, union
in a greater sense, and we all know what that kind of bliss feels like
to be in total synchronicity God forbid out of the blue even with a
stranger that may not fit the bill otherwise . . . The very gift of
Tango, it is not to be analyzed as is, but to be experienced and
enjoyed, and I do believe, not to be owned, but honored. It comes from
the streets and has universal origin. It goes back out into the world.
So while some of us - or many - may be afraid it loses its essence if
we don't think of it so much as Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) but
rather a universal quality, who knows what comes of it, in terms of
art, expansion, evolution . . . yes there is beauty to the origin and
tradition, but also limitation, and we are in a changing world and
tango is evolvig with it . . or maybe we are evolving with more
discovery of tango . . .

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Thu Aug  6 15:42:54 2009
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:42:54 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The removal instructions are not working..
Message-ID: <9F37963F401045DE9FE24D4D0B16D273@labyrinth>

Please remove me from the list,

Have read the instructions, tried twice, they is not working.

 

Thanks everyone..

David.


From azure.music at verizon.net  Thu Aug  6 15:48:24 2009
From: azure.music at verizon.net (AJ Azure)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:48:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908061234q66075472se05c8f28f006ccf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6A0ABC8.6A63B%azure.music@verizon.net>


Life and and the very nature of human culture is evolution and fusion. There
are very few bastions in the world left untouched. It's good to have a foot
in the old world and a foot in the new. Balance.

-Adriel

> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:34:24 -0300
> To: Adriel Azure <azure.music at verizon.net>, Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> 
> Thank you everyone engaged here in this quite enlightening and
> humorous and interesting conversation! I get one thing from it - it is
> not all as black and white as some folks may want to think it is,
> Tango is a large mystery and it circles all around CONNECTION, union
> in a greater sense, and we all know what that kind of bliss feels like
> to be in total synchronicity God forbid out of the blue even with a
> stranger that may not fit the bill otherwise . . . The very gift of
> Tango, it is not to be analyzed as is, but to be experienced and
> enjoyed, and I do believe, not to be owned, but honored. It comes from
> the streets and has universal origin. It goes back out into the world.
> So while some of us - or many - may be afraid it loses its essence if
> we don't think of it so much as Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) but
> rather a universal quality, who knows what comes of it, in terms of
> art, expansion, evolution . . . yes there is beauty to the origin and
> tradition, but also limitation, and we are in a changing world and
> tango is evolvig with it . . or maybe we are evolving with more
> discovery of tango . . .
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  6 20:34:48 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 00:34:48 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] The other tangos
Message-ID: <SNT115-W51780F9BAC88B12037EB62970B0@phx.gbl>


Dear Tangueros, friends,
 
 We should remember that is the second time around the world for Argentine Tango.  The first time was in the early 1920s.  At that time it suffered some changes, first by the Argentine families that spent time in the European Capitals, they purged the tango of "indecent" moves and lyrics before they started to teach i to the European aristocracy. 
 
Later is was changed to make it more the "other" ballroom dances. An embrace in "V" the torsos apart. Symmetrical steps, the woman does a mirror image of the man's footwork. Then the music acquired a marching beat, "more reliable",
so that the dance could be taught by counting steps in slow and quick sequences.
 
I personally like most of them, I even dance American tango style, sometimes; but my heart is with the Argentine Tango, the original one that gives me the strongest feeling and communication with my partner.

 
International Tango
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDf65VaYSE 
 
 American Tango 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5yr9yrzlwQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3Y3NNlwnk
 
Finnish Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoDwCWl3mu0
 
Russian Tango - Old German Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCiNke8X59o
 
Polish Tango  - Old German Tango
 
Turkish Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isA1QoWdPvg
 
japanese Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1VQQcRlp0
 
Russian Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5tvmeI7-A
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Get your vacation photos on your phone!
http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM

From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Aug  6 21:32:00 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 11:32:00 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The other tangos
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W51780F9BAC88B12037EB62970B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W51780F9BAC88B12037EB62970B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000301ca16fe$dcae5fc0$960b1f40$@com.au>

Bravo Sergio! 


He wrote: "I personally like most of them, I even dance American tango
style, sometimes; but my heart is with the Argentine Tango, the original one
that gives me the strongest feeling and communication with my partner."

Anton



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  7 02:48:23 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:48:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
References: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <589335.71582.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: "c.roques at mchsi.com" <c.roques at mchsi.com>
> 
> Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes 
> with this line of thought ...> 

This has to be a first for Tango-L. Never thought we'd be discussing 
whether Tango is Argentine or not ... Very strange!

Jack


      


From anton at alidas.com.au  Fri Aug  7 06:59:28 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 20:59:28 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <589335.71582.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
	<589335.71582.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000e01ca174e$22b9cb90$682d62b0$@com.au>


"This has to be a first for Tango-L. Never thought we'd be discussing 
whether Tango is Argentine or not ... Very strange!

Jack"

Maybe it's a case of whether it's still appropriate to refer to the tango as
mostly danced around the globe as "Argentine Tango".

Anton

      

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  7 08:08:53 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 05:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
In-Reply-To: <000e01ca174e$22b9cb90$682d62b0$@com.au>
References: <080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
	<589335.71582.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<000e01ca174e$22b9cb90$682d62b0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <905936.33981.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Anton Stanley <anton at alidas.com.au>
> 
> Maybe it's a case of whether it's still appropriate to refer to the tango as
> mostly danced around the globe as "Argentine Tango".
> 
> Anton
> 

When I talk to Tango people, I'll just say 'Tango'. If I talk to non-tango 
people I'll say 'Argentine Tango' to avoid confusion - they may think 
I'm talking about Ballroom Tango or American Tango.

But I sincerely hope that, one day, the whole world will understand that 
'Tango' means Argentine Tango..

Just as everyone understands that?the 'The Open' means the British Open 
and 'The Derby' means the Ascot Derby and 'Football' means soccer ;-)

Jack


      



From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  7 20:15:28 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:15:28 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] japanese Tango
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS758B3EF7B700F9E1FF874AE080@phx.gbl>

Sergio said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1VQQcRlp0


Yes the comments at the bottom of this Youtube post says it all: Nude and 
contemporary dance.




V

 


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  7 23:26:51 2009
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 12:26:51 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] japanese Tango
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS758B3EF7B700F9E1FF874AE080@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY102-DS758B3EF7B700F9E1FF874AE080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A7CF07B.6020102@ruby.plala.or.jp>

these two are Noriko and Akiyoshi Tanada, and yes, I am surprised about 
that costume. When I have seen Noriko, she was always wearing very 
subdued, conservative looking dresses that ended below the knee. Those 
two are married, they met in BsAs, if that makes you feel any better. 
And no, they do not come from contemporary dance, I believe, those two 
were ballroom teachers before. All their early performances showed 
valse. Japanese are extremely competitive people, and they overdo it 
sometimes, using whatever means they have at their disposal. If a 
transparent dress has to add some extra "passion", maybe...But this is 
definitely a new one.

http://www31.ocn.ne.jp/~tango/index.html

Here is another clip of them dancing tango de salon while teaching in 
Hawaii..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chZk3NKlLWE


Vince Bagusauskas wrote:
> Sergio said:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1VQQcRlp0
>
>
> Yes the comments at the bottom of this Youtube post says it all: Nude and 
> contemporary dance.
>
>
>
>
> V
>
>  
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   


From davidhill.biz at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 05:02:14 2009
From: davidhill.biz at gmail.com (David Hill)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:02:14 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Teacup Tango
Message-ID: <d7999bcb0908080202w2a9daf52r57f731445e9f5d8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, fellow Tango-L members,

My wife and I wrote and produced this tango song and video about how much we
love tea (and tango music). I am playing my Weltmeister Meteor accordion and
the rest of the sounds come from a Yamaha keyboard.

We'd love to know what you think about the result! It certainly was fun to
make it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmoshHoQU0

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sun Aug  9 00:32:41 2009
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 13:32:41 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] The Teacup Tango
In-Reply-To: <d7999bcb0908080202w2a9daf52r57f731445e9f5d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7999bcb0908080202w2a9daf52r57f731445e9f5d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A7E5169.4000101@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Nice, that was fun to watch. My favourite part was of course the tango 
dancing tea pots but that part was so short! Could you add more of that 
to the video?

David Hill wrote:
> Hi, fellow Tango-L members,
>
> My wife and I wrote and produced this tango song and video about how much we
> love tea (and tango music). I am playing my Weltmeister Meteor accordion and
> the rest of the sounds come from a Yamaha keyboard.
>
> We'd love to know what you think about the result! It certainly was fun to
> make it.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmoshHoQU0
>   


From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Sun Aug  9 02:15:18 2009
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Mel Roddie)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 23:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tea cup Tango.
Message-ID: <993962.3571.qm@web96111.mail.aue.yahoo.com>

So invigorating, compelling?and informative too!.

Mel.

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  9 05:36:22 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 02:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Teacup Tango
In-Reply-To: <d7999bcb0908080202w2a9daf52r57f731445e9f5d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7999bcb0908080202w2a9daf52r57f731445e9f5d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <551659.43666.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message ----
> From: David Hill <davidhill.biz at gmail.com>
> 
> We'd love to know what you think about the result! It certainly was fun to
> make it.
> 

Thanks, that was certainly fun to watch?after all the serious stuff we 
usually get on Tango-L. I also love tea and tango, but not teabags :-)

Jack


      



From c.roques at mchsi.com  Sun Aug  9 13:13:20 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 17:13:20 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Teacup tango
Message-ID: <080920091713.5769.4A7F03B0000492A600001689223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Since the response to the video seemed sparse but positive, perhaps the sparsity implied that people did not like it.  So instead of being silent, I will offer a negative response for balance. Not to be mean-spirited or nasty, but constructive.  No, I didn't like it, and of course I realize that it was meant to be light-hearted and even tongue-in-cheek.  I am also a tea lover and like very much Okakura's classic "The Book of Tea."   It was cute but it doesn't really sound like tango at all. The song was just more or less "Hernando's Hideaway" with different words.  It sounded like a Broadway musical version of one.  Music like this just propagates  the confusion among non-tango dancers about what the music really sounds like and the cultural roots of tango (not that any non-tango people actually follow this list.) 

But the real reason I am offering this is that it seems hypocritical for people to decry the confusion of people who don't know the difference between Ballroom tango and Argentine tango on the dance floor, but will excuse something like this.  Unless of course the video makers are Ballroom tango dancers, then it makes sense that they would choose to write music like this, but this is an Argentine Tango list, right?   Why not try to write one that follows tango musical norms, like leaving out the drum machine, for one (we have enough of them already at nuevo-tango festivals.)  Classic tango orchestras don't have drums, and never did, with a few rare exceptions.  The line between Ballroom tango and nuevo tango is getting thinner and thinner every day and so is the music.  It would be nice to see someone try to work within the tango tradition, even with humor, instead of working within another tradition but just putting a tango spin on it. Maybe you should just post it on a Ballroom list. 

Curmudgeonly yours,
Charles


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Aug  9 13:42:03 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 13:42:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango and Politics
Message-ID: <4A7F0A6B.3070709@shahrukhmerchant.com>

In case anyone had any lingering doubts as to whether Tango is really 
Argentine, Argentina now has, or presumably will soon have, its very own 
Tango Political Party. Seems like the next logical step in the evolution 
of the Tango, no?

At the website of the "Partido Pol?tico Tango" (www.pptango.com.ar), 
they state that the formal filing was done on June 30th of this year. 
The site contains a motley set of links with vaguely populist themes 
(mostly from what must have been a burst of energy between May and July 
2007). There are also links to the Argentine constitution and a set of 
Apartment Regulations for, of all places, Colombia (go figure ...).

In case anyone thinks that this is just another cheap attempt to 
capitalize on the name of Tango? by someone who knows nothing about it, 
Mr. Ricardo Montesino, the founder of this party, is also the founder of 
the still-active 42-year-old "Bar Sur" in San Telmo (one of the somewhat 
less touristy Tango show venues), so his Tango credentials are genuine.

His political credentials are no doubt developing, though a good start 
may be to change the classification of "Partido Pol?tico Tango" on his 
LinkedIn page, where he is listed as the "Owner" [sic], from 
"Entertainment Industry" to something else, although one could argue 
that "Entertainment Industry (With Possibly Significant Collateral 
Damage)" may not be a bad classification for most political parties (and 
not just in Argentina ...). But we digress.

You may read an interview of Mr. Montesino at 
http://www.bar-sur.com.ar/prensa-notamontesino40aniv.html. And you 
should definitely try to visit Bar Sur when you are in Buenos Aires, 
even if you don't see a show there.

Shahrukh

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Mon Aug 10 05:49:34 2009
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:49:34 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Teacup tango
In-Reply-To: <080920091713.5769.4A7F03B0000492A600001689223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
References: <080920091713.5769.4A7F03B0000492A600001689223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <4A7FED2E.7070000@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Charles, how do you know these two are tango dancers at all? They stated 
their love of drinking tea, not of dancing Argentine tango, and the 
video is an entry to a video contest advertising the fun of drinking 
tea, apparently, judging from the other videos, and they were just 
asking for feedback for that..
I think, watching two dancing tea pots to ballroom or whatever tango 
music out of the can is not likely to confuse people about how to dance 
tango.
On the other hand, I would at least imagine that even if they are not 
tango dancers, at least a woman, with her mimics, gestures and 
expressiveness would have the stuff to be a great tanguera, and lucky 
the man to have such a hell of a flirtatious wife. ; )
It does not hurt to have a little sense of humour, Charles. I am not 
planning to dance to the music in this video but I can still enjoy it 
for a laugh.

Astrid

c.roques at mchsi.com wrote:
> Since the response to the video seemed sparse but positive, perhaps the sparsity implied that people did not like it.  So instead of being silent, I will offer a negative response for balance. 
> (...)
> But the real reason I am offering this is that it seems hypocritical for people to decry the confusion of people who don't know the difference between Ballroom tango and Argentine tango on the dance floor, but will excuse something like this.  


From ben at benbogart.com  Mon Aug 10 11:05:37 2009
From: ben at benbogart.com (Ben Bogart)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:05:37 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Hard to Find Tango Books - Group Order
Message-ID: <1f93efa50908100805v1c83ca65hd22589aa544318a2@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,

I've been off the list for quite some time now, but I thought this might be
a good opportunity to rejoin.  I'm placing a group order here in BA for some
hard to find tango music books.  I thought there might be some dancers with
a music background who might be interested.  I'm placing the final order on
August 16th so you have until then if you are interested.  Here is the page
where you can order them:
http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/

Here's a copy of the original announcement:
*****************************************************************************************

For a limited time Tango Jam Media is making 3 hard to find tango music
books available at discount prices. Take a look below and if you're
interested you can place an order for any of them here:
http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/

But hurry they will only be available at these prices until August 16th.

------------------------------
<http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/>
*Curso de tango by Horcio
Salg?n* * * *Available in English and Spanish *

Chapters Title (Spanish Version)

1. Curso de Tango
2. La evaluaci?n del tango
3. Creaci?n de los g?neros musicale
4. Distintos tipos de tango
5. Elementos de uso frecuente en el tango
6. La Armon?a
7. el piano
8. instrumentos de cuerda
9. el ?Arrastre?
10. El bandone?n
11. La guitarra
12. El clar?n
13. La orquesta
14. An?lisis
15. notas finales

------------------------------
<http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/>
*La Orquesta T?pica by
Juli?n Peralta
* *Mec?nica y aplicaci?n de los fundamentos t?cnicos del Tango*

Arranging techniques for orquesta t?pica.

See *complete table of contents*
here<
http://www.tangojam.com/cms/images/stories/tapas/indice_la%20orquesta%20t%CDpica.pdf
>

Sections:

1. Fundamentos t?cnico
1. Estructra
1. Elementos constitutivos
1. Melod?a
1. Melod?as ligadas
2. Melod?as r?tmicas
3. Adornos
4. La variaci?n
5. La articulaci?n combinada
6. Voces
2. Acompa?amiento
1. Marcato
2. S?ncopa
3. Bordoneo
4. 3-3-2
5. Pesante
6. Blancas y Coral
3. Elementos contrapunt?sticos
1. Tipos
4. Armon?a
1. Conceptos generales
2. Armon?a estructural
3. Rearmonizaciones
4. Inversiones
5. Modulaci?n
5. Orquestaci?n
1. Registro
2. Tutti
3. Soli
4. Solos
5. Combinaciones
6. Miscel?neas
7. Formaciones reconocidas
2. Aplicaci?n de los fundamentos t?cnicos
1. Principios y plan de Trabajo
1. Criterios
2. Escritura del arreglo
1. Organizaci?n estructrual
2. Objetivo del fragmento
3. An?lisis de fragmentaci?n
3. Ap?ndice

------------------------------
<http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/>
*Arreglos para orquesta t?pica:
Tradici?n e innovaci?n en manuscritos originales*

8 of Salg?ns original handwritten scores for orquesta tipica

Included Scores

1. Mis calles porte?as
2. Del 1 al 5 (d?a de pago)
3. Don Agust?n Bardi
4. La llamo silbando
5. Motivo de vals
6. Grillito
7. A fuego lento
8. Aqullos tangos camperos

Ben Bogart
www.benbogart.com
Clases De Bandone?n y Saxo Online - primera clase gratis
Bandone?n and Sax classes Online - First Class Free

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 12 12:28:20 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] BsAs line versus World line of tango development
Message-ID: <898215.75001.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

The discussions over the past few weeks, and observations in my and others communities, have also helped me delineate what I want to do as an organizer.  I've always been supportive of tango's evolution, but I've decided to be more supportive of the BsAs line of development instead of a world line of development.  It strikes me that for anyone non-Argentine to say what is Argentine or what isn't is insulting to the Argentines.  Sorta' like Emeril telling me (a Filippino) what a Filippino dish should taste like.  To me, the series of posts that questioned whether tango music is Argentine rather than African or European was insulting to the Argentines.

To support a BsAs line of development, it no longer makes sense to me to still consider using non-tango music for tango.  To support a BsAs line, then it really only makes sense to focus on the BsAs music (Piazzolla, Bajofondo, Otras Aires).  Personally, there's only so much of that type of music I can take, but I'd prefer to work with groups that are bringing in different sensibilities into tango than with groups whose music has nothing to do with tango at all.  It makes more sense to develop a tango dance from the former rather than the latter.  What would be the best term to describe the former - Nuevo Tango?

The term "Alternative Tango" has been used to describe tango done to non-tango music.  To me, it doesn't make sense to consider this to be Argentine Tango.  Nor does it make sense to limit such dance to Argentine sensibilities, which, I think is what people are doing.  I'd simply use the phrase word non-tango music to describe the rock, blues, etc. used.  I think the phrase "Alternative Tango Music" has lumped in it too many things that could still be considered tango.

As far as deejaying at a milonga, I'd still treat this newer music/dance the same way I would milonga or vals.  Nuevo tango looks fine when done to Piazzolla.  It doesn't look very good with D'Arienzo or DiSarli, generally speaking.  Similarly, salon doesn't look as effective with Otras Aires as neuvo figures do.

I normally don't play Piazzolla or Pugliese at my milongas, so I'll guess I'll start.  Working in Piazzolla will be a bit tricky.

Trini de Pittsburgh







 



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 12 21:54:15 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:54:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Roberto Herrera
Message-ID: <155747.90037.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

All,

I've heard a story that Roberto Herrera was was hit on the head and shot 
in the leg during a bank robbery in Buenos Aires. Anyone heard anything 
about that?

Jack


      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 12 22:15:07 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:15:07 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Roberto Herrera
Message-ID: <SNT115-W31592F7D55C4FCF5CA059097050@phx.gbl>


I searched in "Clarin" newspaper news from 8/2008 to 8/12/2009.
 
I did not find any news about roberto Herrera.
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. 
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Thu Aug 13 12:47:14 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:47:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Trini, Bs As line
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7060AF865@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Trini wrote -  Nuevo tango looks fine when done to Piazzolla. It doesn't
look very good with D'Arienzo or DiSarli ... 
 
Trini, surely you jest.  I am sure you have seen Chicho dance to
Darienzo ( the famous youtube clip at la viruta with Lucia, I believe),
and Gustavo dance to Disarl.   IMHO, the best interpretations of those
composers, and done with nuevo elements.     

From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 13 15:42:41 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:42:41 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Trini, Bs As line
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7060AF865@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7060AF865@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <006801ca1c4e$38e810c0$aab83240$@net>

Trini wrote:
"Nuevo tango looks fine when done to Piazzolla. It doesn't look very good
with D'Arienzo or DiSarli ..." 
 
Martin responded:
"Trini, surely you jest.  I am sure you have seen Chicho dance to
Darienzo ( the famous youtube clip at la viruta with Lucia, I believe),
and Gustavo dance to Disarl.   IMHO, the best interpretations of those
composers, and done with nuevo elements."

Wow, I have to solidly agree with Martin on this one.  A brief tour of
YouTube will show the kind of dancing by Gustavo & Giselle, Chicho & a
variety of partners, and others, to classic tango music that are absolutely
magical specimens of caressing the music and one's partner with heartrending
connection and musical expression.  

Trini, perhaps when you visualize "Nuevo" done inappropriately to
D'Arienzo/Di Sarli, you are only thinking of dancers you have seen who dance
their current idea of some "Nuevo" elements but are not yet very good at
executing them socially to that music. If this is true, I'll bet that, if
they like the music at all, eventually it will "look good" if they keep
working at it - especially when they have such sterling YouTube examples
from the maestros at their disposal.

In general though, I think Trini's idea of paying closer attention to the
"Buenos Aires line", i.e., new developments in tango emerging from Buenos
Aires, as opposed to the things emerging on the "tango frontier", is a very
sound approach.  After all, that's what any "Mecca" is for - to be a center
for pilgrims from which developments and distinctions can radiate outward.
Like Paris in the 1900's, cool things may happen elsewhere on the cultural
frontiers.  But until current tango developments are "ratified by Buenos
Aires Tango", whatever that may mean to a given individual, it makes sense
for that individual to assume that they're not really "the thing" yet.  And
this mechanism alone will serve to effectively define for all of us, through
the coming decades of further development, what at any given moment is
really "Argentine Tango".

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 13 15:52:00 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:52:00 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing to Di Sarli and D'Arienzo
Message-ID: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZeQ7Us88s
 
Here Gustavo Naveira, adjusts to the music and mostly dances Traditional Tango Style.  Indio Manso - Carlos di Sarli.
 
When you are a good dancer and know several tango styles you adjust your dancing to the available space, the music, your partner, the moment, the circumstances.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjRflYZfuvY
 
Chicho and Lucia at La viruta, dancing to "El Flete" - Juan D'aArienzo -
 
Chicho also adjust to the music and the other circumstances, uses a close embrace that at times opens to allow figures that need more room.
 
Summary: the more you know, the more you adjust to the circumstances, and do some sort of Syncretism, using elements of different tango styles that basically are present in Traditional Tango anyways.
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009

From newtonr at mscd.edu  Thu Aug 13 15:51:57 2009
From: newtonr at mscd.edu (newtonr@mscd.edu)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:51:57 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kudos_to_Gabriel_Miss=E9_and_Natalia_Hil?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?ls?=
Message-ID: <c767a02019c09.19c09c767a020@mscd.edu>

Wonderful recognition of two superb dancers of Argentine Tango and 
Argentine Tango as a dance genre among the top dancers and companies 
like "American Ballet Theatre", "New York City Ballet", and "Alvin 
Ailey American Dance Theater".


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/arts/dance/11evenings.html?
_r=1&emc=eta1
 


From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 13 16:25:48 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:25:48 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>

Sergio wrote:
"When you are a good dancer and know several tango styles you adjust your
dancing to the available space, the music, your partner, the moment, the
circumstances."

Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version of "Don Juan" -
combining tight corridas, intimate embraces, and Gustavo's high-quality
salon footwork during Giselle's giro (impeccably executed common
"traditional" elements) with multiple fourth-sacadas, supersweet colgadas,
beautifully timed piernazos, no-embrace back sacadas, "colgada boleos" and
superslow linear boleos (virtuoso "nuevo" elements) all done with beautiful
connection and near-flawless musicality...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0

... and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the social floor of
the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the ronda, and
inspiring improvisational skill.

Enjoy!

Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Aug 13 20:03:14 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:03:14 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo
	&	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
Message-ID: <002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>

Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill." 

Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
Giselle dance like in the video. If indeed they danced like that at a
typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I would call them a menace and it would
completely destroy my dance experience on the floor with them. On the other
hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
watch them all day long.

Whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with your comment:
"Like Paris in the 1900's, cool things may happen elsewhere on the cultural
frontiers.  But until current tango developments are "ratified by Buenos
Aires Tango", whatever that may mean to a given individual, it makes sense
for that individual to assume that they're not really "the thing" yet.  And
this mechanism alone will serve to effectively define for all of us, through
the coming decades of further development, what at any given moment is
really "Argentine Tango".
I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango"
doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
"what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
development, doesn't make it a successful product. 

Anton


From alex at tangofuego.us  Thu Aug 13 20:09:11 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:09:11 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] BsAs line versus World line of tango development
Message-ID: <001201ca1c73$79dbdfb0$6d939f10$@us>

Hola Trini...

Last week when there was more activity on the subject, someone mentioned
something about "extreme tango". I immediately thought of the (Winter)
X-Games. I'm not sure, but I think it's a contraction or branding of
"Extreme Games".

I thought it could aptly be applied in the case of Nuevo and other tango
based variants of Argentine Tango.

X Tango. Or X-Tango. Or XTango.

I took the liberty of creating a graphic. Here's the link:
http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/2009/08/xtango-by-alextangofuego-on-flick
r.html

And I still like Keith Elshaw's "Tango Tango" to describe the one, the true,
the legitimate Argentine Tango.

My two cents.

Alex


From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 20:31:48 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:31:48 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>

..  "I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos
Aires Tango"
doesn't mean very much"  . . .

 I wholeheartedly agree - first of all - there is noone here in BsAS
that "ratifies", second, Tango is - like all in Life - subject to
constant evoluton, third, Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world -  like it or not - agree or not -it is reality -

amazing how many concepts, interpretations and analyzing is out there -

 poetry no longer is poetry if analyzed. A Rose is no longer what it
is, if all analyzed why it smells and how and if - nor is a kiss, nor
is mystery, nor is a scent . . . it is NOT science, it is an art, an
experience, poetry . . .  how many subjective ideas and explanations
are floating around. . .  why? What does it do? Does it make you a
"better" dancer? Rodolfo Dinzel once made an interesting remark: ' . .
. there are those who want to "have" the Tango, and there are those
who "are" the Tango . . ." now what does he mean by that?  also "
there are those who are creative and simply dance . . and then there
are those who copy the ones that are creative . .  " hmmmm  . . . food
for thought?






On 8/13/09, Anton Stanley <anton at alidas.com.au> wrote:
> Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
> social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
> ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill."
>
> Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
> Giselle dance like in the video. If indeed they danced like that at a
> typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I would call them a menace and it would
> completely destroy my dance experience on the floor with them. On the other
> hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
> watch them all day long.
>
> Whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with your comment:
> "Like Paris in the 1900's, cool things may happen elsewhere on the cultural
> frontiers.  But until current tango developments are "ratified by Buenos
> Aires Tango", whatever that may mean to a given individual, it makes sense
> for that individual to assume that they're not really "the thing" yet.  And
> this mechanism alone will serve to effectively define for all of us, through
> the coming decades of further development, what at any given moment is
> really "Argentine Tango".
> I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango"
> doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
> "what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
> development, doesn't make it a successful product.
>
> Anton
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Aug 13 21:26:07 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:26:07 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>	
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>	
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
	<a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>

Bettina wrote: " Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world -  like it or not - agree or not -it is reality"

Hard to argue against that sort of logic. So why do we want to persist
preserving a label of "Argentine Tango", a label I might add which only
exists outside of Argentina to my knowledge. Maybe it's more appropriate, in
attempting to accommodate the diversity of views, to have labels like
"Tango-as danced in Argentina". By that I mean not only danced in Argentina
but also Tango that has been filtered by Argentine culture. If the "filtered
by culture" concept has any credence, then no more ambiguity in labelling.
Tango as danced in Texas. Tango as danced in Massachusetts. In my own corner
of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
in Brisbane. Ask anyone in Sydney whether there's a cultural difference, I'm
sure their answer will be affirmative. So the question is do we want world
tango, with all its derivatives, or do we want tango as mostly danced in
Argentina? Or maybe culture has no influence on Tango and I just drink too
much.

Anton


From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 13 21:28:55 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:28:55 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
	Gustavo&Giselle
In-Reply-To: <002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
Message-ID: <009c01ca1c7e$97047830$c50d6890$@net>

Anton wrote:
"Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
Giselle dance like in the video..."
I have seen them dance at several milongas in both Boulder and Denver - but
within a social context, as I said: "with consummate taste, complete
awareness of the ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill".  Obviously,
there is no "ronda" in this video - there are no other dancers with whom to
form a ronda (an expression referring to the mutual decision by all dancers
to follow line-of-dance as they share the floor, and GENERALLY to keep
moving "downstream" together).

 Anton continues:
"If indeed they danced like that at a typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I
would call them a menace and it would completely destroy my dance experience
on the floor with them. On the other
hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
watch them all day long."

In the milongas I mention, what often happens is that, for their own
reasons, some dancers stop dancing because they prefer to sit in order not
to miss watching (but, you know, it's a delicate thing- if EVERYONE sits,
then it feels like a performance, which changes the vibe - so sometimes if
it's a milonga we're hosting, I'll keep dancing just to keep the
social-dance vibe going).  I have to say it's a VERY cool sensation to be
social-dancing near them - very inspiring and satisfying in a way that's
difficult to describe - and speaking as a leader, BOY, do I feel secure on
the side facing them!

Anton, what I meant to express was not that they dance "like this" at a
typical Buenos Aires milonga WHEN IT IS CROWDED.  But their skills in
evidence on the video ALSO contribute to making them EXQUISITE social
dancers - as anyone who has had a chance to social dance with either of them
will attest.  In the case of Gustavo, we're talking about someone who danced
virtually EVERY NIGHT in all the hot milongas of Buenos Aires for FIFTEEN
YEARS. The guy knows what he is doing, you know? Of COURSE they don't dance
like that when it's crowded - it would be physically impossible.

On the other hand, anyone who stays late enough at a typical Buenos Aires
milonga may well see a similar level of non-crowding AT SOME POINT. Such a
milonga visitor may well also see those dancers that can dance this well
altering their choices, as Sergio writes, to take expressive advantage of
their greater share of the space available - but really, this is common
sense, right?  Does anyone drive exactly the same on a four-lane empty rural
highway as they do in urban bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic? Do we need
to frame this in the context of "driving style" to explain the difference in
choices drivers are making?


Anton further writes:
"I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires
Tango"
doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
"what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
development, doesn't make it a successful product."

I purposely said that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango" will mean different
things to different people.  Perhaps for you it will mean whether people
dance this way at your favorite late-night milonga.  Someone else may define
it as what's happening in classic places like Sunderland or afternoon
milongas like El Arranque. Someone else may define it as what the maestros
are doing at CITA.  Someone else may define it as what the major established
Buenos Aires tango schools are teaching in their curricula.  Someone else
may define it as what the talented young tango people have been doing with
each other in Buenos Aires for a year or more.  But I think we agree with
Trini that "Buenos Aires Tango" is the common frame of reference, because
IMHO it's Buenos Aires where ALL the tango pots (dance, music, tradition,
innovation) are boiling the hottest.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 21:55:30 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:55:30 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
	<a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908131855h288ea32fs280fb552af62623d@mail.gmail.com>

There are as many "styles" in tango as there are couples - if you look
closely - each couple on a dance floor has their very own unique style
- there is no one like the other, yes there may be similarities, some
similar steps or moves, but each has their own expression and flavor.

why does everything have to be "classifed" ? For what?  For who? For
what purpose?

"Nuevo" style, "Naveira" style, "Urquieze" style - Tango is Tango is
Tango - all the explanations do nothing. There is an expression
"beginner;s mind" very approriate in tango. It is about experience and
perception and exploration and primarily, imagination, invention and
not about analysis.

From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Aug 13 23:04:35 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:04:35 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908131855h288ea32fs280fb552af62623d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>	
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>	
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>	
	<a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>	
	<002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>
	<a6baf9ab0908131855h288ea32fs280fb552af62623d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01ca1c8b$f72d3f50$e587bdf0$@com.au>

Hi Bettina

I emphasize with you. However why do you say Tango is Tango is Tango, when
it appears to me that you mean dancing is dancing is dancing! You're using a
label without explaining what the label means.

Anton



From anton at alidas.com.au  Thu Aug 13 23:06:24 2009
From: anton at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:06:24 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
Message-ID: <002b01ca1c8c$35347570$9f9d6050$@com.au>

Bettina wrote: " Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world -  like it or not - agree or not -it is reality"

Hard to argue against that sort of logic. So why do we want to persist
preserving a label of "Argentine Tango", a label I might add which only
exists outside of Argentina to my knowledge. Maybe it's more appropriate, in
attempting to accommodate the diversity of views, to have labels like
"Tango-as danced in Argentina". By that I mean not only danced in Argentina
but also Tango that has been filtered by Argentine culture. If the "filtered
by culture" concept has any credence, then no more ambiguity in labelling.
Tango as danced in Texas. Tango as danced in Massachusetts. In my own corner
of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
in Brisbane. Ask anyone in Sydney whether there's a cultural difference, I'm
sure their answer will be affirmative. So the question is do we want world
tango, with all its derivatives, or do we want tango as mostly danced in
Argentina? Or maybe culture has no influence on Tango and I just drink too
much.

Anton


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 13 23:18:42 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 03:18:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" dancing to Di Sarli
Message-ID: <SNT115-W16DA629AEC3804909AF23397020@phx.gbl>


Bettina says:

"1 - I wholeheartedly agree - first of all - there is noone here in BsASthat "ratifies", second, Tango is - like all in Life - subject toconstant evoluton, third, Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced allover the world - like it or not - agree or not -it is reality -
 
***Should I say that Viennese Waltz is not Austrian because it is danced all over the world?  Or that Pizza is not Italian because there is a pizzeria in every corner in Buenos Aires?
 
"2 - why does everything have to be "classifed" ? For what? For who? Forwhat purpose?"
 
*** I can think of many reasons. Not long ago when people ignored that several tango styles existed, they would bring instructors from Argentina that taught different styles, contradicting each other, teaching different techniques for leading and following,different tango moves, greatly confusing the students.  
 
There were long discussions about what "real" A.Tango was. The milongueros argued that the embrace is always closed. The Traditional tango dancers that it could be both closed and open, etc.
 
Brian says:
 
"3 - "Buenos Aires Tango" is the common frame of reference, becauseIMHO it's Buenos Aires where ALL the tango pots (dance, music, tradition,innovation) are boiling the hottest."
 
*** No doubt whatsoever!!!
 
Tango, the same as Rembetika around Piraeus (Greece), Fado in Portugal, the blues in the US south were musical types and dances that developed in a very special and unique milieus, that were amazingly similar. 
 
They began on the margins of society, the periphery of cities (most other dances developed in rural areas), creation of displaced peoples, the underworld of migrant, poor workers, living on the borderline of illegality, drugs, gambling, prostitution. 
 
Men and women that frequently scorned straight society, its laws and conventions. 
 
  Each one of those dances and all the others are a reflection of the culture that originated them. All of them were initially considered proper of low class people, without any artistic value.
Later on they became accepted by the general society and became very popular

TAngo has a special situation due to its universal appeal, but then so do  the US music and dance and perhaps also in some degree all the ballroom dances of the American Continent. (Samba, Salsa, Mambo, Cumbia,Merengue, Cha-Cha, bolero, Rumba).
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 13 23:34:24 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>
	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
	<a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<002801ca1c7e$331176c0$99346440$@com.au>
Message-ID: <222898.23513.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Anton Stanley anton at alidas.com.au

>? In my own corner
> of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
> in Brisbane. 
> 

By all means give it those labels, if you want. But if it's not the same as they 
dance in Argentina, please don't call it 'Argentine Tango'.

Jack


      



From gabriella.marino at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 00:37:25 2009
From: gabriella.marino at yahoo.com (Gabriella Marino)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] News from Roberto Herrera
Message-ID: <747428.51028.qm@web44912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Roberto Herrera would like to thank all the well-wishers for their messages and phone calls. He has asked me to let everyone know that he is now home although it might take three to four months before he fully recovers. He was violently assaulted after he&#39;d withdrawn money from a bank and was hit on the head with a revolver and then shot in his left leg. His leg is broken but the bullet luckily missed the nerves and arteries, although he lost a lot of blood and underwent surgery. If you would like to get in touch with him, please do so at the following address: mail at robertoherreratango.com.ar
Thanks,
Gabriella


      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 14 01:08:25 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:08:25 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Fado, Rembetika, Blues, Tango and a tango for Bettina
Message-ID: <SNT115-W44669DD6C6F0B63DDB75C097020@phx.gbl>



Example of Fado, it impresses me for its beauty, its expressivity and mostly because of its sadness.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yejaUUBqtr0 
 
Fado by Amalia Rodrigues
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSeiivkzATs&feature=related 
 
Rembetika
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPUSMgY10ws
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS5q71dAxFI&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFzF_0JJ3w
 
Blues
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_rd8y8A2oE
 
Tango
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEiWivpIa2o
 
German Tango for Bettina
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAMVhpbCujQ
 
Un abrazo, Sergio
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. 
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From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 04:25:13 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:25:13 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fado, Rembetika, Blues, Tango and a tango for Bettina
In-Reply-To: <SNT115-W44669DD6C6F0B63DDB75C097020@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT115-W44669DD6C6F0B63DDB75C097020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908140125r35dc5ca8r176bb74678e8aae6@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so much for these beautiful films! Especialy the Portuguese
singer and yes, I love the German one :-)!

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 08:45:36 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
Message-ID: <163436.31546.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 8/13/09, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version
> of "Don Juan" 

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0


Thanks for the video, Bryan.  They dance it beautifully, but to my eye, it's not quite right.  As if there's a little too much work involved.  Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead of swaths in their performance.  However, this was a performance piece and perhaps the swaths were there mainly for his audience.

This goes back to music being a key part of the evolution of a dance.  When I watch people at a milonga, more nuevo steps come out during Bajofondo or non-tango music.  It looks right and feels right.  The movements developed during the modern era.  What would using those same movements in older pieces serve, other than to say "because we can"?  We keep sayng that back in the day, the dancers were part of the orchestra.  That the orchestras were motivated in part by the dancers.  The nuevo dancers weren't there back in the day.  Yes, you can dance nuevo to older music, but I think nuevo looks best when done to modern pieces, especially with the average dancer.

Yesterday, during a private I decided to work on nuevo moves with a student.  The logical choice for music was Carlos Libedinsky.  Use DiSarli?  Nah.

I like experiencing the different characteristics of the 3 main styles of dancing.  I think dancing each in the most suitable music (I suppose it's actually the other way around at a milonga) brings out the best of that style and the music.  Know what I mean?

Trini de Pittsburgh










 





      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 09:03:52 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:03:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] BsAs line versus World line of tango development
In-Reply-To: <001201ca1c73$79dbdfb0$6d939f10$@us>
Message-ID: <119313.80669.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 8/13/09, Alex Long <alex at tangofuego.us> wrote:

> Last week when there was more activity on the subject,
> someone mentioned something about "extreme tango". I immediately thought of the (Winter) X-Games. 
 
> I thought it could aptly be applied in the case of Nuevo
> and other tango based variants of Argentine Tango.
> 
> X Tango. Or X-Tango. Or XTango.
> 
> I took the liberty of creating a graphic. Here's the link:
> http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/2009/08/xtango-by-alextangofuego-on-flick
> r.html
> 

Hi Alex,

I like the name XTango, and it's a term that is being used by some tango groups.  Homer Ladas leads X-sessions, but his X stands for Exploration.  XTango could mean Exploratory Tango.  That would certainly be suitable and positive.  Thanks for doing the graphic, but I think it comes across as too negative (i.e. Not Tango).

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Fri Aug 14 10:07:30 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:07:30 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] tango in the Virgin Islands
Message-ID: <8CBEAFFB23D528E-1114-21D3@webmail-md05.sysops.aol.com>

I will be visiting St. John's - and maybe St. Thomas.  Any suggestions?

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Fri Aug 14 15:57:58 2009
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:57:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Bettina, creativity vs copying
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7060AF8A8@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Bettina seems to regard copying as bad; Im not so sure. One must have
the tools before one can create.  jazz musicians transcribe solos of the
giants before they create their own, same with art students I see at the
met sketching a winslow homer.  
most great artists in every field are very aware of what has come
before, and what their contemporaries are doing. add inspiration to the
mix, your personality, and then you start to become the tango. but the
influences are there if you look hard enough in every artists work.
Every tango dancer saw some one else dance, and the copying is either
subconscious or conscious.    No one came out of the womb dancing tango.


From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 14 16:48:08 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:48:08 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Di Sarli "Don Juan"/Gustavo & Giselle: Part 1
Message-ID: <00ef01ca1d20$88628f40$9927adc0$@net>

> Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version
> of "Don Juan" 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
Trini wrote:
>>>"Thanks for the video, Bryan.  They dance it beautifully, but to my eye,
it's not quite right.  As if there's a little too much work involved.
Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead of swaths in
their performance.  However, this was a performance piece and perhaps the
swaths were there mainly for his audience."<<<

Yes, it's certainly a carefully crafted performance piece, meant to express
for an audience's pleasure a very particular "dancer's view" of Di Sarli's
"musician/arranger's view" of Don Juan.  As audience members ourselves, we
are all entitled to our preferences, and need not defend or explain them, so
I fully accept your opinion that there's something "not quite right",
although from my perspective I disagree.

Gustavo once said in a seminar that, whatever they may dance in a
choreography, all the things they do COULD be "led".  From my perspective,
that's an interesting constraining compositional requirement that I suspect
nearly all "performance/fantasia tango" choreographies can't meet. It also
raises the possibility that those who CAN lead and follow these elements
might choose to successfully and appropriately use them in social dancing at
a milonga for their own expressive pleasure, especially since the social
dancing context is so much less stressful for them than the performance
context.  This is what I've observed when watching Gustavo & Giselle social
dancing in milongas at the Mercury Caf? in Denver or the Avalon milongas in
Boulder.  And in those milongas, they do indeed dance with the "touches" of
"nuevo" you'd prefer, rather than "swaths".

I mean, tango is an improvised dance, right? And some good dancers have more
improvisational tools than others, especially if as a couple they have a
combined total of tango experience approaching forty years.  They can use
these elements within their share of the floor space, they can use them
successfully without disturbing the ronda.  So we shouldn't be surprised
when their social dancing may contain elements which are more complex and
refined than those used by the average dancers around them.  Their other
social dance partners certainly seem to enjoy their choices, to put it
mildly.  Many experienced tango dancers may even see this level of mastery
manifested in this way at the milonga as setting a kind of "gold standard"
for improvised social tango.  I mean, they're just dancing for enjoyment
with each other in the moment like the rest of us, except they have the
benefit of 1) a lovingly honed artistic perspective, 2) superb technique,
and 3) decades of dancing in Buenos Aires milongas.  

(continued in Part 2)

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"




From brianpdunn at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 14 16:50:54 2009
From: brianpdunn at earthlink.net (Brian Dunn)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:50:54 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Di Sarli "Don Juan"/Gustavo & Giselle - Part 2
Message-ID: <00f001ca1d20$eb0f06f0$c12d14d0$@net>

(continued from Part 1)

Trini wrote further:
>>>"This goes back to music being a key part of the evolution of a dance.
When I watch people at a milonga, more nuevo steps come out during Bajofondo
or non-tango music.  It looks right and feels right.  The movements
developed during the modern era.  What would using those same movements in
older pieces serve, other than to say "because we can"?"<<<

Oh, I don't know, maybe it serves the need to use something "because I seem
to feel like it at the moment".  I think most of us leaders have had
feelings like that when improvising our social dances. ;)  But of course,
YOU should only lead/follow what looks right and feels right to YOU, because
that's your dance.  

And anyway, on the timescale we're talking about, the "nuevo" developments
in tango dance from the mid-'80's are almost as far removed from Bajofondo
and Narcotango as they are from the late Golden Age in the late '50s, when
the dancers known at the time as "petiteros" started playing with the ideas
that now appear as "milonguero style". As I understand it, all the "nuevo"
developments actually began in a tango musical environment which was
exclusively Golden Age music, common in the few milongas still existing in
the '80's and early '90's where those dancers got their social tango
experience.  There was no new tango music in dance venues, so that was what
they had. 

But certainly, from some perspectives there have been even newer
developments in the dance since the mid-'80's "nuevo" developments, which
perhaps ARE more in synchrony with the "21st-century Bajofondo/Narcotango
era" according to your theory of dance-music development linkage...uh oh, do
we have to start talking about "classic nuevo" versus "nuevo nuevo" now?  

Just to be clear, personally I'd really really like to just call it all
"tango", but that's another thread...;)


Trini wrote further:
>>>"  Yes, you can dance nuevo to older music, but I think nuevo looks best
when done to modern pieces, especially with the average dancer."<<<

Hmmm... In my discussion of the "Don Juan" video, the elements I referred to
as "Nuevo" are things I very rarely see anyone doing to ANY music, primarily
because they are very difficult to do well - it IS a performance, and
difficult elements have higher performance value. (I should perhaps retract
that description for colgadas, which I see more and more lately in milongas
to all kinds of music, perhaps because they can be such a useful solution to
a common navigational problem).  One reason that I tend to write "Nuevo" in
quotes is because 1) many of my primary Buenos Aires sources rarely or never
use the term with reference to tango dancing, and 2) outside Buenos Aires I
hear/read it a lot, but I never actually know what someone specifically
means when they use the term - although it seems to be used somewhat
disparagingly by many users without further clarification.  I'm assuming
that since you tend NOT to use quotes (e.g.," Yes, you can dance nuevo to
older music..."), that you have a definite idea in mind when you write of
things like steps that are "nuevo...for the average dancer".

As you've already shared with us, in your community you are taking on many
roles, and thus have many responsibilities.  I fully understand, and
empathize with, your situation.  In that context you've apparently been
inspired to draw some "style" distinctions for your own purposes, in both
music and dance. We can assume these distinctions are useful to you, and
perhaps to others.  So without calling into question the distinctions you're
drawing, I'm curious what steps are on your list of "nuevo steps for the
average dancer".

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"


From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 16:33:40 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] x tango
Message-ID: <524994.92679.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear Alex:  Yeah, here in BA, they have Practica X, Tango Extremo and I am sure others....all indicative of the nuevo style, in their events.  Seems best for an identifying "codigo", if necessary, for differentiation as it is universally recognized, as you said, since the trademarking of the X games.   Personally, though, I find all of this "talking about dance" somewhat like singing about sex.......nice but really, beside the point.  A little too much "mental masturbation", if you will, for me.  Or at best, a Zen koan.

Prefer the old chestnut........"shut up and dance", right?  A bit of an anti-intellectual position, I suppose but nonetheless, appropriate in this ongoing discussion, I feel. 

Besos y abrazos,  d. black 


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 18:33:19 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Di Sarli "Don Juan"/Gustavo & Giselle - Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00f001ca1d20$eb0f06f0$c12d14d0$@net>
Message-ID: <91485.7838.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net> wrote:

? So without calling into question
> the distinctions you're drawing, I'm curious what steps are on your list of "nuevo steps for the average dancer".
> 

I'm surprised that you would ask that.  Much of the vocabulary in the Sebastian and Mariana video.  Turning colgadas in which the women stick their leg behind them.  Traveling volcadas.  Linear boleos (actually, the linear boleos going forward aren't so bad, but the ones going back behind or turned to the side are a bit funky).  All of these movements germinated in salon or milonguero, but then they got exaggerated.  It's the exaggerations that have become nuevo.

As for nuevo's development, I remember when Pablo Veron was considered nuevo.  A fabulous dancer.  Call him first generation.  (BTW, I recall Tomas Howlin advertising himself as part of this new generation of tangueros.  Love Tomas.)  Fabian, Gustavo, Pulpo are second generation.    Chico and Sebastian are third.  That's how I see it anyway.

Trini de Pittsburgh









      


From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 18:57:43 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:57:43 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] x tango
In-Reply-To: <524994.92679.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <524994.92679.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908141557o3a2dc127k482683bb9899c6bc@mail.gmail.com>

" . . . . Personally, though, I find all of this "talking about dance"
somewhat like singing about sex.......nice but really, beside the
point.  A little too much "mental masturbation", if you will, for me.
. ."


OH thank you thank you thank you!!!! finally someone calling a spade a
spade! yes, shut up and dance !! :-)

man - all so in the f.... head !

From debsclar at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 14 19:12:35 2009
From: debsclar at earthlink.net (Deb Sclar)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:12:35 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] x tango
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908141557o3a2dc127k482683bb9899c6bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <524994.92679.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908141557o3a2dc127k482683bb9899c6bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008001ca1d34$b6c8d380$245a7a80$@net>

Bettina wrote:
" OH thank you thank you thank you!!!! finally someone calling a spade a
spade! yes, shut up and dance !! :-)

man - all so in the f.... head !"

Question to you, Bettina: WHY are you reading this thread? Follow your own
advise - stay out of your head, shut up and dance. It works for you, bueno.
I am often in your camp, by the way. I prefer to dance rather than discuss.

PERO! Why not let those who need to discuss, to intellectualize, to
articulate, to analyze, do so? Why stand in such judgment of a process that
isn't your own? Many who analyze at this depth are the very leaders we
chicas PRAY will invite us to a tanda that would make our evening or week or
festival worthwhile...maybe this process helps them become even more divine
at their leading? I am familiar with most of the gents sharing opinions on
this thread & most are MARVELOUS dancers. Carry on, chicos!



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
bettina maria fahlbusch
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:58 PM
To: dierdre black
Cc: Tango L; alex at tangofuego.us; Tango List
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] x tango

" . . . . Personally, though, I find all of this "talking about dance"
somewhat like singing about sex.......nice but really, beside the
point.  A little too much "mental masturbation", if you will, for me.
. ."


OH thank you thank you thank you!!!! finally someone calling a spade a
spade! yes, shut up and dance !! :-)

man - all so in the f.... head !
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 14 21:52:35 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:52:35 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Press Delete please
Message-ID: <SNT115-W527711485475DF88F89C3197030@phx.gbl>


Bettina not long ago you started a discussion by saying among other things:
 
"We may be afraid tango loses its essence ifwe don't think of it so much as Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) butrather a universal quality, who knows what comes of it, in terms ofart, expansion, evolution . . . yes there is beauty to the origin andtradition, but also limitation, and we are in a changing world andtango is evolvig with it . . or maybe we are evolving with morediscovery of tango . . ."
 
You have stated many times that "tango, like everything in life is evolving".
 
We do not have any problem with that, let tango evolve, let's see what happens, but you have to recognize that there are some art forms that come to us from the past that are so good, that its excellency made us to cherish them and try to preserve them for ever, as they are. (Wagner, Bach, Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, etc are good examples).
 
 For me A.Tango has those characteristics. I like it as it is. Most people seem to like it as it is.  
 
There are some that wish to experiment, change the choreography, change the music, change the feeling; this is fine as well, let them dance the way they wish.
 
I do not understand why all of a sudden you resent an intelligent discussion.
 
Mostly when you are not obligated to read anything.
 
As to Dierdre, she never posted anything that I can remember but resents that Brian wishes to have a discussion.  Interesting human behavior. :))
 
If we all "shut Up" there is going to be a lot of silence here and...I like silence as well. Whatever you wish is fine by me. 
 
Un abrazo, Sergio
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 15 06:03:19 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] x tango
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908141557o3a2dc127k482683bb9899c6bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <165793.4575.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hello Bettina,

Have you ever had anyone come up to you and say "Thank you for all that you do.  Tango has really changed my life"?  That's pretty much the exact words.  And it happens not once, not twice, but many times.  Meanwhile, you're just thinking that you're simply sharing something that you love - hosting parties, showing others how to dance, talking about tango.

Have you ever had someone say to you "I trust you.  You're my teacher."  Not once, not twice, but multiple times?  And they go to workshops or classes because they simply trust your judgement?  And you barely know them?  

At some point, it dawns on you that, gee, doing this tango thing isn't just about you.  It's about everyone else, too.  And the people who will come along next year or in 5 years or in 10 years.  It's a humbling moment.

And there is no accredited university to get a doctorate's degree from or a research magazine to read.  You're just flying by the seat of your pants trying to learn as much as you can to live up to the trust that others have so willingly placed in you.  All you can do is talk to a lot of people and piece things together yourself.  Thank goodness for Tango-L and people like Brian, Sergio, and a host of other people who are willing to discuss things in-depth.

If the above things happen to you, then you might appreciate more why people like Brian, Sergio, myself, and many others on Tango-L post the way we do.  We love our communities enough to want to do them right, not just for today, but for tomorrow and for the future leaders of our communities, too.  If you choose not to get so involved in shaping your community, then that's fine, too.  As a friend of mine says, "You can either follow, lead, or get out of the way."


Trini de Pittsburgh


P.S.  Had an interesting conversation on Facebook today.  Went something like this.

Friend #1:  Did you know that you can tango to the Blues?

Friend #2 (non-tango):  Really?

Me:  Yes, but it's not Argentine tango, which is okay.  Don't know what they call that hybrid.  The terms Alternative Tango or Xtango has been suggested for describing those variants.

Friend #1:  You can also do a type of free tango, depending on what you and your partner feel like.

... Some discussion about past milonga with the blues...

Friend #2:  This is an interesting conversation.


I think this exchange says a lot about what we can do to encourage creativity and personal expression without losing what we love about tango tango or raising animosity over different styles.




 



      

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 15 11:10:35 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:10:35 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] x tango
In-Reply-To: <165793.4575.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <a6baf9ab0908141557o3a2dc127k482683bb9899c6bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<165793.4575.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908150810s346bfe1dp165499db7dbcd55c@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds wonderful, Trini. I actually relate. I can appreciate anyone
giving their time and energy to Tango, I do so myself, not just in
Tango but also with my other creative work that is also now related to
Tango and in direct service.

I am not in critique of the conversations - which I gather by now
seems to have been greatly misunderstood - I have engaged in them as I
actually find it interesting to see there is even a forum for such and
some of these conversations have been very informative and
interesting.

But I am a friend of posing questions, asking questions, not jut to
others, but also to myself - I think in any viable engagement
especialy with art/ dance and so forth, anything subject to evolution,
that is important. Yes, and tradition has its place. I am an artist
for over 25 years and a dancer for over 11 years now, I do discover
constantly new depths, frontiers and experiences within it. And while
i have great respect for the origins and tradition in Tango, as an art
form, if everyone would strictly only stick to tradition we would not
see some incredible artists doing what they do, like f.e. Guillermina,
Miriam Larici, Gustavo y Giselle - just to name a few. But these are
all artists that I would say while they completely keep and capture
the essence, they are also constantly pushing its evolution into new
frontiers.

By the way Gustavo was being asked (or projected on?) in one of the
"Chamuyos" that he was the "Father of Tango Nuevo . . ." (?) and he
replied  " . . . Nuevo . .? What is that?" (I was there so for fact he
said that.)

On 8/15/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello Bettina,
>
> Have you ever had anyone come up to you and say "Thank you for all that you
> do.  Tango has really changed my life"?  That's pretty much the exact words.
>  And it happens not once, not twice, but many times.  Meanwhile, you're just
> thinking that you're simply sharing something that you love - hosting
> parties, showing others how to dance, talking about tango.
>
> Have you ever had someone say to you "I trust you.  You're my teacher."  Not
> once, not twice, but multiple times?  And they go to workshops or classes
> because they simply trust your judgement?  And you barely know them?
>
> At some point, it dawns on you that, gee, doing this tango thing isn't just
> about you.  It's about everyone else, too.  And the people who will come
> along next year or in 5 years or in 10 years.  It's a humbling moment.
>
> And there is no accredited university to get a doctorate's degree from or a
> research magazine to read.  You're just flying by the seat of your pants
> trying to learn as much as you can to live up to the trust that others have
> so willingly placed in you.  All you can do is talk to a lot of people and
> piece things together yourself.  Thank goodness for Tango-L and people like
> Brian, Sergio, and a host of other people who are willing to discuss things
> in-depth.
>
> If the above things happen to you, then you might appreciate more why people
> like Brian, Sergio, myself, and many others on Tango-L post the way we do.
> We love our communities enough to want to do them right, not just for today,
> but for tomorrow and for the future leaders of our communities, too.  If you
> choose not to get so involved in shaping your community, then that's fine,
> too.  As a friend of mine says, "You can either follow, lead, or get out of
> the way."
>
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> P.S.  Had an interesting conversation on Facebook today.  Went something
> like this.
>
> Friend #1:  Did you know that you can tango to the Blues?
>
> Friend #2 (non-tango):  Really?
>
> Me:  Yes, but it's not Argentine tango, which is okay.  Don't know what they
> call that hybrid.  The terms Alternative Tango or Xtango has been suggested
> for describing those variants.
>
> Friend #1:  You can also do a type of free tango, depending on what you and
> your partner feel like.
>
> ... Some discussion about past milonga with the blues...
>
> Friend #2:  This is an interesting conversation.
>
>
> I think this exchange says a lot about what we can do to encourage
> creativity and personal expression without losing what we love about tango
> tango or raising animosity over different styles.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From ben at benbogart.com  Sat Aug 15 11:12:33 2009
From: ben at benbogart.com (Ben Bogart)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:12:33 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Book Order - Last Chance
Message-ID: <1f93efa50908150812i49419864re221bef8c120a881@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

This is a quick general message to anyone who hasn't ordered books and would
like to that this Sunday Aug 16th is the last day to do order.
Order Page: http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/

Here is a reminder of what is available:

1) Curso de Tango (Tango Course) by Horacio Salgan available in English and
Spanish
2) La Orquesta Tipica by Julian Peralta  available only in Spanish
3) Arreglos para orquesta tipica by Horacio Salgan (8 handwritten original
scores)

more info on the order page:
http://www.tangojam.com/cms/content/view/29/72/

If you have ordered already I'll be placing the order on Monday and shpping
as soon as possible after that.

Saludos,
Ben Bogart
www.benbogart.com
Clases De Bandone?n y Saxo Online - primera clase gratis
Bandone?n and Sax classes Online - First Class Free

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 15 11:36:57 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria fahlbusch)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:36:57 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
	Giselle
In-Reply-To: <163436.31546.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<163436.31546.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908150836s6d4c192uc4955c25d4d3ba11@mail.gmail.com>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0

Trini says:
" . . .  Thanks for the video, Bryan.  They dance it beautifully, but
to my eye, it's not quite right.  As if there's a little too much work
involved.  Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead
of swaths in their performance.  However, this was a performance piece
and perhaps the swaths were there mainly for his audience."

I mean this leaves me speechless. This choreography, floorcraft,
musicality, putting together of so many comolex elements is nothing
short of "majestic as Brian puts it beautifully.

To have that analyzed and categorized in such a way, as a dedicated
student for over 10 years of Tango, such a comment as "it does not
quite look right" feels offensive.

Maybe you try?

To do what they do here - that takes a LOT. That kind of art is rare,
and in the conversation of "shut up and dance . ." is the point. . . .
You dance and you dance and you dance and you dance - and there is no
time to talk all about it, you discover, you train, you redefine, you
question, you try, you discard, till - wow, something new!
there is never an end to it. You don't need to point out you are a
"teacher" . It is VERY VERY humbling to have that kind of engagement
with tango or any art. As you always find yourself still at the
Beginning. Even while people all around you may tell you you are a
great dancer and ask for your card. To make a comment as such, I can
only say: maybe you want to look again - deeper?



On 8/14/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- On Thu, 8/13/09, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version
>> of "Don Juan"
>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
>
>
> Thanks for the video, Bryan.  They dance it beautifully, but to my eye, it's
> not quite right.  As if there's a little too much work involved.
> Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead of swaths in
> their performance.  However, this was a performance piece and perhaps the
> swaths were there mainly for his audience.
>
> This goes back to music being a key part of the evolution of a dance.  When
> I watch people at a milonga, more nuevo steps come out during Bajofondo or
> non-tango music.  It looks right and feels right.  The movements developed
> during the modern era.  What would using those same movements in older
> pieces serve, other than to say "because we can"?  We keep sayng that back
> in the day, the dancers were part of the orchestra.  That the orchestras
> were motivated in part by the dancers.  The nuevo dancers weren't there back
> in the day.  Yes, you can dance nuevo to older music, but I think nuevo
> looks best when done to modern pieces, especially with the average dancer.
>
> Yesterday, during a private I decided to work on nuevo moves with a student.
>  The logical choice for music was Carlos Libedinsky.  Use DiSarli?  Nah.
>
> I like experiencing the different characteristics of the 3 main styles of
> dancing.  I think dancing each in the most suitable music (I suppose it's
> actually the other way around at a milonga) brings out the best of that
> style and the music.  Know what I mean?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 15 13:22:50 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Limitation vs Challenge (was "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli)
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908150836s6d4c192uc4955c25d4d3ba11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997448.3929.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 8/15/09, bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To have that analyzed and categorized in such a way, as a
> dedicated
> student for over 10 years of Tango, such a comment as "it
> does not
> quite look right" feels offensive.
> 

Glad to see that you've chosen to stay in the conversation.  Limitations, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.  Diego DiFalco said that when he went to milongas, he would dance toward the most crowded part of the room to challenge himself.  To be creative, to really dance.  

Think about how creative movie makers were about handling scenes of death or sex when movie codes were more restrictive than they are now.  They played with lighting, with music, with camera angles, with the audience.  It produced classic scenes that are still hailed today as great examples of movie making.

One can choose to see a limit (or a categorization) as either a boundary or a challenge.  My experience is that people who say that tango needs to grow only think of tango's evolution as being in one direction.  Those are the dancers who are limited.  Tango grows in multiple directions.  

Ask any salon dancer who has chosen not go the nuevo route, whether they feel limited.  Ask a milonguero.  I bet their answer will be a resounding "No".  And they'll talk about how infinite their possibilities are.

But can someone run into a crowded movie theater and yell "Fire" as part of their personal expression?  Of course, not.  

Tango works as a community endeavor, not solely as an individual one.  And I think an important element in these conversations over the past few weeks has been looking at how we can encourage personal expression within a given social framework that people don't want to see changed.  Given the history of Tango-L, I think it's pretty cool that we can have an intelligent conversation without name calling or insults.


Trini de Pittsburgh











      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 15 23:07:23 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 20:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Di Sarli "Don Juan"/Gustavo & Giselle - Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00f001ca1d20$eb0f06f0$c12d14d0$@net>
References: <00f001ca1d20$eb0f06f0$c12d14d0$@net>
Message-ID: <225135.51886.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Brian Dunn brianpdunn at earthlink.net

> I'm curious what steps are on your list of "nuevo steps for the
> average dancer".
> 

I'm an average dancer who who doesn't much like Nuevo but I have 
to say I love the 'Volcada'. Also like the 'Changes of Direction'.

For me, anything you can dance in close embrace is fine, regardless
of the origin.

Jack


      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 16 00:04:52 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Latin Tango
Message-ID: <246506.49809.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

After recent threads about 'what to call Nuevo', watching this great 
video it struck me that 'Latin Tango' would be a perfect name. 

After all, we have 'Ballroom Tango', so why not 'Latin Tango'. And 
it would certainly remove any boundaries in its evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG0Q530daGI

Jack


      


From HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com  Sat Aug 15 15:00:28 2009
From: HBBOOGIE1 at aol.com (HBBOOGIE1@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:00:28 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Limitation vs Challenge (was "Nuevo" Dancing to Di
	Sarli)
Message-ID: <c39.5ce42587.37b85fcc@aol.com>

?Tango works as a community endeavor, not solely  as an individual one. And 
I think an important element in these conversations  over the past few 
weeks has been looking at how we can encourage personal  expression within a 
given social framework that people don't want to see  changed. Given the 
history of Tango-L, I think it's pretty cool that we can have  an intelligent 
conversation without name-calling or insults.?
Trini de  Pittsburgh



?Tango works as a community endeavor not solely  as an individual one?  

To me this is the challenge for the ?Nuevo  Dancers? to work on a way to 
compact the moves eliminate the endless kicking and  twirling and respect the 
floor?no wait a minute?that would take the ?nuevo? out  of what they do 
and transform them into respectful tango dancers. There must be  another 
solution?  
In ballroom there is American and International  style. American follows 
the line of dance and International moves diagonally  back and forth across 
the line of dance. The two cannot co-exist so the solution  is separate dances 
and it works. Perhaps this is what the organizers should do  for Nuevo it 
could work. On the flip side Nuevo would be banned from traditional  
milongas. 
Just a  thought.
David









_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing  list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l  



From rontango at rocketmail.com  Sat Aug 15 10:14:19 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (Ron Weigel)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Swine Flu, Recession & BsAs Milonga attendance
Message-ID: <226118.28367.qm@web111809.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

There was some discussion on this list about amonth ago about the impact of swine influenza on attendance at Buenos Aires milongas. Susana and I have just returned from 3 weeks in Buenos Aires and this is what we have learned in our observations and discussions with people at milongas.

In most of July attendance at most Buenos Aires milongas had taken a hard hit. We went to the once popular matinee milongas at Plaza Bohemia (Tuesday, Sunday) and El Beso (Thursday) and although there were a sufficient number a dancers on the floor to feel like you were dancing in a community of dancers rather than alone (about 15-20 couples on these small floors), these milongas had been packed to the rafters last year and in 2007 during July and August. Also, these matinee milongas that fill the approx. 6 PM - 12 AM time slot were thinning out noticeably around 10 PM. El Arranque on Tuesday (ending at 10 PM) also thinned out early (around 8 PM). However even in late July Gricel on Monday and Leonesa on Friday and Saturday were as packed as they have been in recent years. Fortunately around August 1, when school vacations ended, attendance improved substantially and was near normal for this time of year at the milongas we attended (El Beso, Plaza
 Bohemia, Gricel, Leonesa, Lo de Celia).  Some of the porten~os we met at the milongas said they had stayed away during July because of the fear of swine flu.

A significant part of these reduction in attendance was due to a reduced number of foreigners at these traditional porten~o milongas. Last year during the same time period there were typically at least 20-25 foreigners at these milongas. This year attendance by foreigners was half or less. We encountered few foreigners in our dance invitations. It is not exactly clear why foreigners have stayed away. Worldwide economic recession has hurt travel in general. Several people we know who rent apartments in Buenos Aires have reported a higher vacancy rate this year and some have reported cancellations. Shops in the downtown area dependent on the tourist trade have reported suffering. We have never seen so many empty taxis on the streets. It is likely that the fear of swine flu has caused some, perhaps a significant part of the reduction in tourist travel to Buenos Aires. 

There were several benefits resulting from reduced tourist attendance at milongas. It became obvious that compared to previous years, there was a lot less kicking on the dance floor. With few exceptions, porten~as don't lift their feet off the floor when they dance. Thus, we believe we saw porten~o tango de salon about as pure as it gets. Also, the porten~os who attended despite a swine flu scare were the diehards. The quality of dancing was high. We danced very few disappointing tandas. 

Attendance at Buenos Aires milongas will continue to be affected by worldwide recession, both by reduced tourism and reduced cash availability by Argentines. Argentina has been hard hit by the recession. The rise in attendance at milongas in August reflects to some degree a reduced fear of swine flu (more fear than reality anyway), not an improved economy. Argentina will recover from recession later than the countries sending tango tourists to Buenos Aires.

Ron


      


From tangoresearch at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 21:11:08 2009
From: tangoresearch at gmail.com (Tango Research)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 11:11:08 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural identity
	and tango
Message-ID: <7f23b1d50908141811q69113a9dv5bb648b0603ca450@mail.gmail.com>

?We all love Argentine tango - but since we come from a
?variety of cultures and backgrounds, perhaps we love it differently?

?To find out whether we feel and relate to tango in a manner
which depends on our cultural identity, I've designed a
?short online web survey.

?Would you take the survey? It will probably take only 10 minutes,
?because I want your immediate reaction, not a considered one.
You can remain anonymous, or you can leave an email address to
receive a copy of the results after analysis.
(Your address and details will not be divulged to others.)

?The survey (in English, Japanese and Spanish) is at:
?http://tangoresearch.webs.com

?And of course, I'd be very happy if you would ask your tango
friends to do it as well.

?Thanks for your cooperation.


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Aug 16 05:01:58 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 05:01:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Washington Post Article on Argentine inflation
Message-ID: <C6071E0EC29D49819BD093C65262BC94@michaelditkoff>

Washington Post article 
Doctored Data Cast Doubt on Argentina
Economists Dispute Inflation Numbers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/15/AR2009081502758.html?hpid=artslot&sub=AR


Michael Ditkoff
I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines

From politas at gmail.com  Sun Aug 16 05:07:27 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:07:27 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural
 identity and tango
In-Reply-To: <7f23b1d50908141811q69113a9dv5bb648b0603ca450@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7f23b1d50908141811q69113a9dv5bb648b0603ca450@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1250413647.32247.1.camel@wedge>

On Sat, 2009-08-15 at 11:11 +1000, Tango Research wrote:
>  We all love Argentine tango - but since we come from a
>  variety of cultures and backgrounds, perhaps we love it differently?
> 
>  To find out whether we feel and relate to tango in a manner
> which depends on our cultural identity, I've designed a
>  short online web survey.

>  The survey (in English, Japanese and Spanish) is at:
>  http://tangoresearch.webs.com

It would appear I can't fill in the survey without disabling important
security features of my browser, so I won't complete it. Sorry!

Myk
in Canberra


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Aug 16 15:45:09 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 16:45:09 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural
	identity and tango
Message-ID: <4A8861C5.5040802@shahrukhmerchant.com>

> It would appear I can't fill in the survey without disabling important
> security features of my browser, so I won't complete it. Sorry!

Which made me go to check it out. No conflicts with my browser settings, 
but be aware that it makes you go through a seemingly never-ending set 
of word-associations. I gave up after 64 of them, without getting any 
indication as to (a) when if ever this was going to end (b) whether my 
efforts would be wasted if I didn't stick it out till the end (when and 
if it really came) (c) whether the real survey was possibly on the 
patience of Tango dancers (how long would they click on levels in a 
word-association game proposed by an anonymous Tango research figure 
until they gave up--the "64" datapoint is mine  ... :-) ?) (d) who was 
really behind the survey (no indication in the original email nor on the 
website) (e) why the need for an email address (albeit optional) "to 
receive the survey results" when the obvious thing to do would be to 
post the results back to Tango-L?

It may very well be legitimate, but I would suggest that the 
survey-taker may wish to answer or address some of these points to get a 
better and more useful response (and that others may wish to wait for 
the response before participating, just in case).

Shahrukh

>> To find out whether we feel and relate to tango in a manner
>> > which depends on our cultural identity, I've designed a
>> >  short online web survey.
> 
>> >  The survey (in English, Japanese and Spanish) is at:
>> >  http://tangoresearch.webs.com

From vytis at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 16 17:05:34 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 07:05:34 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re: Research project: Correlation between
	cultural identity and tango
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS48FD7C5ACBE9C7F9EEC78AE000@phx.gbl>

Shahrukh Merchant said:

    > It would appear I can't fill in the survey without disabling important
    > security features of my browser, so I won't complete it. Sorry!

    "Which made me go to check it out. No conflicts with my browser 
settings,
    but be aware that it makes you go through a seemingly never-ending set
    of word-associations. I gave up after 64 of them, without getting any
    indication as to (a) when if ever this was going to end (b) whether my
    efforts would be wasted if I didn't stick it out till the end (when and
    if it really came) (c) whether the real survey was possibly on the "


There are 100 word associations.  10 minutes to complete the survey is a 
conservative figure.  I did indicate at the end in the comments that the 
survey was far too long and was boring towards the end and it would put 
people off.

Also no conflicts with my firewall settings.

V 


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sun Aug 16 18:38:33 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:38:33 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Latin Tango
In-Reply-To: <246506.49809.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <246506.49809.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0908161538k1a3fbc80hcfa04c95204f9376@mail.gmail.com>

To me, this video seemed like "they don't know what to do when their
feet on the floor, so they have to resort to acrobatics".
The only one dancer worth watching was the guy with a hat - he knew
what he was doing, so his partner mostly stayed on the ground.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )



On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Jack Dylan<jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> After recent threads about 'what to call Nuevo', watching this great
> video it struck me that 'Latin Tango' would be a perfect name.
>
> After all, we have 'Ballroom Tango', so why not 'Latin Tango'. And
> it would certainly remove any boundaries in its evolution.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG0Q530daGI
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sun Aug 16 21:36:29 2009
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:36:29 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between
 cultural	identity and tango
In-Reply-To: <4A8861C5.5040802@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <4A8861C5.5040802@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <4A88B41D.7050500@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Shahrukh Merchant wrote:
> (d) who was 
> really behind the survey (no indication in the original email nor on the 
> website) (e) why the need for an email address (albeit optional) "to 
> receive the survey results" when the obvious thing to do would be to 
> post the results back to Tango-L?
>
> It may very well be legitimate, but I would suggest that the 
> survey-taker may wish to answer or address some of these points to get a 
> better and more useful response 
I was sent this survey a while ago by a friend who works in an 
Australian university and who dances tango. I filled it in because I 
thought it was hers. I also, in the comment sections, added a few 
questions regarding the research methods and as to who wrote this 
questionnarie and what is it's purpose and received no answer at all. In 
fact, a few weeks later she sent me another mail, asking me again to 
fill in the same questionnaire. When I replied that I had already done 
so she wrote:"Thank youuuuuu!" So maybe it is from her, as I thought?
However- I have taken a semester of empirical research and it 's methods 
used for psychological studies and have to say that this survey is using 
one of the classical methods (giving a list of words and asking people 
to rate them on a scale of 1-10 or whatever) and the method is ill 
chosen in this case. In my opinion it is unlikely to produce any useful, 
significant results. The whole questionnarie is boring, as you already 
said, and likely to frustrate and demotivate the person who is filling 
it in. It does not facilitate expressing the dancer's thoughts or 
feelings, does not hit on the essence of tango but rather consists of a 
number of haphazardly chosen ill fitting questions (copied from other, 
similar questonnaires designed to research a compeltely different 
topic?) which say more about the researcher's lack of imagination, 
research experience and understanding of the tango  than anything else. 
The only thing that speaks in favour of using this questionnaire is the 
fact that it is easy to evaluate and that the answers to these shallow 
and misleading questions are quickly counted. Which would fit my 
impression that the researcher is a lazy one who is not willing to spend 
much time on designing or thinking about neither the questionnare nor 
the answers.

Astrid


From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Aug 17 06:33:38 2009
From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 11:33:38 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between
 culturalidentity and tango
Message-ID: <26519334.1250505218811.JavaMail.root@ps30>

In my opinion, far to many word-associations. I did get to the end, but 
after about no 60 I left my mouse in the same place and just went click-
click-click.

John Ward
Bristol, UK




Get away from it all with Tiscali Travel -  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel
_______________________________________________________________________


From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 17 15:36:52 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between
	culturalidentity and tango
In-Reply-To: <26519334.1250505218811.JavaMail.root@ps30>
Message-ID: <917005.37695.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I finished all of the survey, but I don't want to bias future respondents by saying what I got out of doing it.  As someone who has lived in 2 different cultures since I was 5, I thought it was interesting.  But perhaps not everyone can be as sensitive about cultural differences because most only know one culture intimately.  

So I can see where the current discussion lead to the tango survey.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From alex at tangofuego.us  Mon Aug 17 19:27:38 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:27:38 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural
	identity
Message-ID: <004d01ca1f92$543116f0$fc9344d0$@us>

After I completed the survey, I checked out the domain name in my browser
address bar to try to determine who was doing the project. It could be
someone other than the domain owner being offered the space on the server.

Survey address :: http://home.exetel.com.au/bodypaint/research.php

Parse the "research.php" to find a (nude) body painting website ::
http://home.exetel.com.au/bodypaint/

"Photographers Page" link from above :: http://www.billpoonphotodesign.com/

It took me about five minutes to complete the survey. I look forward seeing
the results.

It did occur to me that someone might be trying to (obtusely) drive traffic
to the photographer's website or otherwise generate publicity for him. Or,
it could be a legitimate research project by a university student.

Who knows? Who cares? I thought it was interesting.






From tangoresearch at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 21:48:54 2009
From: tangoresearch at gmail.com (Tango Research)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:48:54 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural identity
	and tango
Message-ID: <7f23b1d50908171848n5bfe5c4dse6c4808f9a767052@mail.gmail.com>

Some of you have expressed concerns about the tango survey
(relationship between one?s cultural identity and the values they see
in tango).

This survey derived from questions which arose from my experience with
tango dancers in various countries, on different continents. Although
this is a study born out of my personal interest, as an experienced
researcher (I have a MA and a PhD, and one of my research interest
lies in the field of psycholinguistics), I have gone through all the
expected protocols for this study, starting with literature review. I
have decided on the methodology (methods of investigation, procedure,
and analyses) after due consideration.

The survey is an initial, exploratory study to determine whether the
results are sufficiently promising to pursue a more intensive study.
If the results of the survey are promising (I am happy to share the
results with anyone who wishes to see them), I may consider doing this
study as a university project, in which case I have to obtain an
official ethics clearance, for example, to conduct email interviews
(as mentioned at the end of the survey).

I chose to be anonymous and used non-personal email to communicate,
mainly because my personal email would reveal my occupation and
institution, leading people to presume that this survey was one of the
university research projects, which it is not.

For reasons stated above, it would be inappropriate to host the survey
on the servers at work. Public servers did not provide the necessary
database facilities, so the bulk of the survey code is being hosted by
a friend. Traffic diversion is not an aim.

One participant (well, in the end, non-participant) expressed security
concerns. The only aspect of the survey mechanism that may have
triggered the reported security alert is that the survey mechanism
uses a "cookie" to control the survey session. This is the intended
purpose of cookies, which are no sort of security threat to anyone.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie for a discussion of
cookies, from which I quote:

----------
    ?Being simple pieces of text, cookies are not executable. They are
neither spyware    or viruses, although cookies from certain sites are
detected by many anti-spyware products because they can allow users to
be tracked when they visit various sites.

Most modern browsers allow users to decide whether to accept cookies,
and the time frame to keep them, but rejecting cookies makes some
websites unusable. For example, shopping carts or login systems
implemented using cookies do not work if cookies are disabled.?

---------
Another participant remarked  "too many words the same". The words
have been carefully chosen from an extensive literature review. Words
that appear to be synonyms to one person may be significantly
different to another. The survey is also in three languages, and
synonyms in one language may not be so in another.

The survey includes 100 words (which were selected from an initial
pool of 178 words), as clearly stated at the beginning of the word
test.

--------
Please position the cursor and click once to indicate how much you think
this word is important to your tango. Please make a judgement based on your
intuition (without giving it a deep thought). You will see 100 words
altogether, but the whole test should be completed within 10 min if
you respond to each word within 6 seconds.

-------

In order to further emphasise this, I have modified the text on the
word-page to not only indicate that you are up to word-N but
reiterating that it is "out of 100". For those who felt that it got
boring, if this was due to the proximity of particular words, note
that they are delivered in an order randomised for each participant.

The optional inclusion of email address provides a means of direct
delivery of survey results on completion of the research. The survey
is not confined to members of tango-L, and hence publication of the
results on tango-L is not sufficient. Some survey participants do not
belong to this, or any such group, but still wish to be advised of
results. I underline that email address is optional. Note also the
assurance that addresses will not be divulged.

I thank those tango-L listeros who have participated, and would be
grateful if you would ask others to participate - particularly those
of Japanese and Latin background, since they are currently
under-represented.

Questions and constructive suggestions are always welcome. However, as
I cannot attend to this project as much as I would like to (I am doing
this outside of my work), my responses may be delayed.

Thank you.
TR


From politas at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 23:42:37 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:42:37 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation between cultural
 identity and tango
In-Reply-To: <7f23b1d50908171848n5bfe5c4dse6c4808f9a767052@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7f23b1d50908171848n5bfe5c4dse6c4808f9a767052@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1250566957.32247.9.camel@wedge>

On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 11:48 +1000, Tango Research wrote:
> Some of you have expressed concerns about the tango survey
> (relationship between one?s cultural identity and the values they see
> in tango).
> 
> This survey derived from questions which arose from my experience with
> tango dancers in various countries, on different continents. Although
> this is a study born out of my personal interest, as an experienced
> researcher (I have a MA and a PhD, and one of my research interest
> lies in the field of psycholinguistics), I have gone through all the
> expected protocols for this study, starting with literature review. I
> have decided on the methodology (methods of investigation, procedure,
> and analyses) after due consideration.
> 
> The survey is an initial, exploratory study to determine whether the
> results are sufficiently promising to pursue a more intensive study.
> If the results of the survey are promising (I am happy to share the
> results with anyone who wishes to see them), I may consider doing this
> study as a university project, in which case I have to obtain an
> official ethics clearance, for example, to conduct email interviews
> (as mentioned at the end of the survey).
> 
> I chose to be anonymous and used non-personal email to communicate,
> mainly because my personal email would reveal my occupation and
> institution, leading people to presume that this survey was one of the
> university research projects, which it is not.
> 
> For reasons stated above, it would be inappropriate to host the survey
> on the servers at work. Public servers did not provide the necessary
> database facilities, so the bulk of the survey code is being hosted by
> a friend. Traffic diversion is not an aim.
> 
> One participant (well, in the end, non-participant) expressed security
> concerns. The only aspect of the survey mechanism that may have
> triggered the reported security alert is that the survey mechanism
> uses a "cookie" to control the survey session.

No, the problem is a Javascript issue. I don't block cookies. But I do
not allow any Javascript to run that is not from whitelisted site (using
the NoScript Firefox extension, http://noscript.net/). This is a very
useful security tool which acts to stop cross-site scripting attacks.
Unfortunately, although there is clearly Javascript being attempted, it
is not announcing itself properly, so I don't get a domain name I can
whitelist.

It would seem likely that your survey forms are mimicking a cross-site
scripting attack, by linking to Javascript code being stored on a
different website. If you tell me what that website is, I can white-list
it, and run the survey.

Myk,
in Canberra



From edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au  Tue Aug 18 00:09:33 2009
From: edgecombe_r at optusnet.com.au (Roger Edgecombe)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:09:33 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Research project: Correlation etc....javascript issue
Message-ID: <4A8A297D.6040200@optusnet.com.au>

Hi,
 I'm hosting the survey code - though I am not the survey owner.

 Initial URL is http://tangoresearch.webs.com/        (public site - 
insufficient facilities)
and then transfers to my ISP's server where database and PHP facilities 
are available:

http://home.exetel.com.au/bodypaint/zzzz_various_zzzzzzz.php


cheers
rde

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Aug 20 00:21:41 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:21:41 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Screaming Tango singers
Message-ID: <4A8CCF55.5090302@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Went to see a Tango show tonight ... Corporaci?n Tango's "Vibraciones 
del Alma." Perhaps I'll post a review on that later, but mainly was 
wondering (again) about the extremely unfortunate habit amongst 
contemporary Tango singers, of "belting" their lyrics, often practically 
to the point of screaming them.

None of the singers of the Golden Age seemed to need to do this (and 
they had arguably weaker amplification equipment); on the contrary, they 
were far more convincing in expressing the melancholy and 
bitter-sweetness of the lyrics of their Tangos "pensively," rather than 
screaming them like an infant having a tantrum (albeit in better tune).

But the audience (Argentine, foreigners, Tango dancers, non-dancers, 
doesn't seem to matter) seems to love it. Or is it that they have been 
conditioned into applauding automatically the louder he sings?

Is there no contemporary version of a Roberto Ray (just to pick one of 
my favourite Tango "crooners," though I could have used almost any of 
the classic singers as an example)? Is it an ego thing with the 
contemporary Tango singers that they feel they have to overwhelm every 
other instrument? Is there even anyone else on Tango-L who feels this 
way (or who LIKES the "belting" style, which would actually be better in 
some ways so I can try to understand the phenomenon ... even though I 
doubt I will actually start to appreciate it)?

Shahrukh

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 20 12:07:32 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:07:32 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] how do I . .
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908200907m31924279p36e24ef25cadb93f@mail.gmail.com>

How do I sign up for Tango A list to offer housing in BsAs? I offer my
lovely house for sublet mid November till mid to end of January. Any
clues anyone?

Thanks,
Bettina

From keith at totango.net  Thu Aug 20 13:31:27 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:31:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Screaming Tango singers
Message-ID: <61690.65.93.195.175.1250789487.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>

I am in hearty agreement with the sentiment Shahrukh expresses.

My take from the production side of things:

This vexatious over-doing of singers can come mostly from either the
performer doesn't have sensitive hearing - so they shout for that
technical reason - or because they just haven't enough
confidence/experience/knowledge to get what a compelling performance is
all about.

A great singer knows the difference between "power" and yelling. But, one
has to have finely-tuned ears and a calm, confident disposition to find
the right level.

In their defence, I believe that when tango went into a kind of nose-dive
in the 50's, when arrangements changed to feature the singer right off the
top of the song instead of half-way through; a lot of vocalists turned-up
the sincerity/angst/aren't-I-great thing and that influenced later
generations.

The singer wanted to be/became the "star," as opposed to the song and the
orquesta as it in in the music we all love to dance to.

Really, someone who yells is under-confident and should just calm down.
Don't "try" so hard.

The original singers were such fine musicians. The records were recorded
with all the band and singer huddled around ONE microphone. All of them
controlled their space and kept the dynamics of the music. No one shouted
-even though they all wanted to be the current day male or femal version
of Caruso.

It was in the 50's that singers started crying and over-doing everything.

That's why it's so nice to hear a singer with a modern orquesta do it right.

Such as on all the recordings Ignacio Varchausky has produced for El
Arranque, Vale Tango, Lydia Borda, etc. Adriana Varella on her records. My
dear friend Fabio Rey. All the wonderful singers.

A good singer wouldn't want to offend us or themselves by pretend crying
(as if they were Goyeneche) or shouting/screaming.

I'm with you, Shahrukh.









From jfpaloma at aol.com  Thu Aug 20 16:08:38 2009
From: jfpaloma at aol.com (jfpaloma@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:08:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Screaming tango singers
Message-ID: <8CBEFE9242CEE06-148C-349B@webmail-mf05.sysops.aol.com>

?Ditto.?



I think we've come to accept that?louder must be better because we no longer have the ability to appreciate the

quality known as 'finesse.' Everything these days is over the top.




In tango, we teach our students that "less is more". The same should?apply to tango singers.?





Julie

Los Angeles

From c.roques at mchsi.com  Thu Aug 20 09:37:06 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:37:06 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Screaming Tango singers
In-Reply-To: <4A8CCF55.5090302@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <082020091337.12939.4A8D51820004C1800000328B223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>


 
 Since none of us were around in the Golden Age, all responses will be speculative but two things come to mind. 
 First, the difference could be that back then orchestras played often at milongas for dancers, not at a stage show for seated listeners, as is the case today.  Someone emoting too strongly over a song could be distracting to dancers.  (Contemporary with tango orchestras, the great swing bands in the U.S. also had singers that complemented the dancing, often singing in very rhythmic phrasing.)  But also there seem to have been singers for listening to and singers for dancing to.  Perhaps the line between them was always thin, but certain ones were lauded for their danceability, notably Angel Vargas, Alberto Castillo, Raul Ber?n and others.   Even today, there are many tangos played that would not be heard in a milonga, in spite of their popularity, so the emotional rendering could just be the other side of the same coin, and coming from a country that loves opera as much as they do, it shouldn't be a surprise that the songs are belted out.  Perhaps that was also the case then.  Nowadays most of the orchestras perform for seated audiences, so the singer is the performer.  Were the songs in the show sung while dancing was going on, or were they meant to be solos? 


Second, how do we know they didn't belt them out when they sang live, even back then?  Studio recordings are carefully produced for sound levels, pitch, etc. and purposefully balanced.  Even today live bands and singers don't always reproduce the exact same sound as in the studio.


But mostly I would think that the reason is that orchestras and singers no longer perform for dancers.
Cheers,
Charles


-------------- Original message from Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com>: -------------- 

> Went to see a Tango show tonight ... Corporaci?n Tango's "Vibraciones 
> del Alma." Perhaps I'll post a review on that later, but mainly was 
> wondering (again) about the extremely unfortunate habit amongst 
> contemporary Tango singers, of "belting" their lyrics, often practically 
> to the point of screaming them.
> 
> None of the singers of the Golden Age seemed to need to do this (and 
> they had arguably weaker amplification equipment); on the contrary, they 
> were far more convincing in expressing the melancholy and 
> bitter-sweetness of the lyrics of their Tangos "pensively," rather than 
> screaming them like an infant having a tantrum (albeit in better tune).
> 
> But the audience (Argentine, foreigners, Tango dancers, non-dancers, 
> doesn't seem to matter) seems to love it. Or is it that they have been 
> conditioned into applauding automatically the louder he sings?
> 
> Is there no contemporary version of a Roberto Ray (just to pick one of 
> my favourite Tango "crooners," though I could have used almost any of 
> the classic singers as an example)? Is it an ego thing with the 
> contemporary Tango singers that they feel they have to overwhelm every 
> other instrument? Is there even anyone else on Tango-L who feels this 
> way (or who LIKES the "belting" style, which would actually be better in 
> some ways so I can try to understand the phenomenon ... even though I 
> doubt I will actually start to appreciate it)?
> 
> Shahrukh
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 21 07:34:20 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
	starting tonight
Message-ID: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Just got this from Milan Records.   The download at Amazon.com is $1.99 for all 50 songs - a very good deal.  The special started last night (Thursday).  The album does not contain much dance music, but it's a good place for those who need to build a tango collection.

Carlos "The Voice" Gardel is the Elvis of Tango.  His rich voice popularized tango all over the world until his death in 1935.  Every tanguero should have him in their music collection.

Astor Piazzolla is another profound influence in tango, as well and is another "must have".  Although Piazzolla is not considered to be dance music and is not played at the milongas in Buenos Aires, his pieces have been quite popular with the nuevo crowd.

After today, prices goes back to $5.99.

This is a special partnership with Amazon.com.  If we show them our support, it will encourage Amazon to support more tango.  

Then, email Stefan and ask for dance classics.  :-)?
I do not have any financial interests in this event.


Trini de Pittsburgh




--- On Thu, 8/20/09, Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com> wrote:


From: Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com>
Subject: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
To: patangos at yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 8:22 PM



Hi there, 

This is just a reminder that starting tonight, and for a limited amount of time only, Amazon.com MP3 and Milan Records are offering "50 Essential Tangos" for $1.99. 

You can download the entire bundle for $1.99 here: 
http://www.amazon.com/50-Essential-Tangos/dp/B002KWHAOU/

The bundle includes a comprehensive collection of Argentine Tango beginning with the mythical years of Carlos Gardel and evolving to the rebirth of ?Nuevo Tango? with Astor Piazzolla. It continues on to classic post World War II compositions revisited by the Tango virtuosos of the last quarter of the 20th Century such as Richard Galliano and Nestor Marconi. It also includes Roberto Goyeneche, the unmistakable voice behind Piazzolla?s "Vuelvo Al Sur", Susana Rinaldi and many others.? 

Enjoy the Tango!
Stefan 

Stefan Karrer
Milan Entertainment, Inc.
6725 Sunset Blvd Ste 320
Los Angeles, CA 90028
Phone: (818) 849-3349
Fax: (818) 849-3341
stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com
www.milanrecords.com




      


From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Fri Aug 21 07:56:47 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:56:47 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for
	$1.99	starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090821115647.189990@gmx.net>

Thanks for the info, Trini!

As I am not familliar with MP3 downlaods at Amazon.com:
are those MP3s DRM-free or not? 

In other words: could I copy those MP3 on my iPod, later move them somewhere else, and so on, without any hassle of internet activiation / re-verification.


If DRM-free this sounds ;-) like a good offer.
Christian



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
> Von: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
> An: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99	starting tonight

> Just got this from Milan Records.   The download at Amazon.com is $1.99
> for all 50 songs - a very good deal.  The special started last night
> (Thursday).  The album does not contain much dance music, but it's a good place for
> those who need to build a tango collection.
> 
> Carlos "The Voice" Gardel is the Elvis of Tango.  His rich voice
> popularized tango all over the world until his death in 1935.  Every tanguero should
> have him in their music collection.
> 
> Astor Piazzolla is another profound influence in tango, as well and is
> another "must have".  Although Piazzolla is not considered to be dance music
> and is not played at the milongas in Buenos Aires, his pieces have been
> quite popular with the nuevo crowd.
> 
> After today, prices goes back to $5.99.
> 
> This is a special partnership with Amazon.com.  If we show them our
> support, it will encourage Amazon to support more tango.  
> 
> Then, email Stefan and ask for dance classics.  :-)?
> I do not have any financial interests in this event.
> 
> 
> Trini de Pittsburgh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/20/09, Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com>
> Subject: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
> To: patangos at yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 8:22 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Hi there, 
> 
> This is just a reminder that starting tonight, and for a limited amount of
> time only, Amazon.com MP3 and Milan Records are offering "50 Essential
> Tangos" for $1.99. 
> 
> You can download the entire bundle for $1.99 here: 
> http://www.amazon.com/50-Essential-Tangos/dp/B002KWHAOU/
> 
> The bundle includes a comprehensive collection of Argentine Tango
> beginning with the mythical years of Carlos Gardel and evolving to the rebirth of
> ?Nuevo Tango? with Astor Piazzolla. It continues on to classic post
> World War II compositions revisited by the Tango virtuosos of the last quarter
> of the 20th Century such as Richard Galliano and Nestor Marconi. It also
> includes Roberto Goyeneche, the unmistakable voice behind Piazzolla?s
> "Vuelvo Al Sur", Susana Rinaldi and many others.? 
> 
> Enjoy the Tango!
> Stefan 
> 
> Stefan Karrer
> Milan Entertainment, Inc.
> 6725 Sunset Blvd Ste 320
> Los Angeles, CA 90028
> Phone: (818) 849-3349
> Fax: (818) 849-3341
> stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com
> www.milanrecords.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

-- 
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
f?r nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Fri Aug 21 09:58:44 2009
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:58:44 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for
	$1.99	starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090821135844.189970@gmx.net>

Thanks, Trini,

for your information. I just gave it a try down here in The Netherlands ... but no chance!  ;-( 


This is how it goes:

Amazon.com-Shop says:
> You have selected to purchase:
> 50 Essential Tangos by Various Artists
> (Amazon MP3 Purchases are limited to U.S. customers.)

Not a fair go for those outside the U.S. ... ;-( 



Amazon.com-Shop also says:
> You must install the Amazon MP3 Downloader to purchase albums. 
> * It automatically adds your music downloads to iTunes or Windows Media 
> Player
> * It takes just a few clicks and less than 30 seconds to install

By that point I would have quit the whole purchase anyway: 
Why should I install their downloader just to buy and listen to a MP3 file / a bunch of files?!
Why should I have to use iTunes or WindozeMediaPlayer - there's more software out there (and *free* software, *free* in a sense of interlectually free!)
This smells like DRM-cripled MP3-files ... *no*thanks*!



Amazon.com-Shop has even more to tell:
> If you would rather not install the Amazon MP3 Downloader, you can
> purchase individual songs without it.
Ah ha: if I go for the expensive version I do not have to use their downloader! Hmm ... ;-(( 


Now I just hit the 'cancel purchase' link! 



Good idea of promotion for Amazon.com and the concept of download-purchasing music - this would have been my first time. But due to the above facts: nope. Chance missed, Amazon.com! 

Happy weekend, e'body!
Christian




-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
> Von: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
> An: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99	starting tonight

> Just got this from Milan Records.   The download at Amazon.com is $1.99
> for all 50 songs - a very good deal.  The special started last night
> (Thursday).  The album does not contain much dance music, but it's a good place for
> those who need to build a tango collection.
> 
> Carlos "The Voice" Gardel is the Elvis of Tango.  His rich voice
> popularized tango all over the world until his death in 1935.  Every tanguero should
> have him in their music collection.
> 
> Astor Piazzolla is another profound influence in tango, as well and is
> another "must have".  Although Piazzolla is not considered to be dance music
> and is not played at the milongas in Buenos Aires, his pieces have been
> quite popular with the nuevo crowd.
> 
> After today, prices goes back to $5.99.
> 
> This is a special partnership with Amazon.com.  If we show them our
> support, it will encourage Amazon to support more tango.  
> 
> Then, email Stefan and ask for dance classics.  :-)?
> I do not have any financial interests in this event.
> 
> 
> Trini de Pittsburgh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/20/09, Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com>
> Subject: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
> To: patangos at yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 8:22 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Hi there, 
> 
> This is just a reminder that starting tonight, and for a limited amount of
> time only, Amazon.com MP3 and Milan Records are offering "50 Essential
> Tangos" for $1.99. 
> 
> You can download the entire bundle for $1.99 here: 
> http://www.amazon.com/50-Essential-Tangos/dp/B002KWHAOU/
> 
> The bundle includes a comprehensive collection of Argentine Tango
> beginning with the mythical years of Carlos Gardel and evolving to the rebirth of
> ?Nuevo Tango? with Astor Piazzolla. It continues on to classic post
> World War II compositions revisited by the Tango virtuosos of the last quarter
> of the 20th Century such as Richard Galliano and Nestor Marconi. It also
> includes Roberto Goyeneche, the unmistakable voice behind Piazzolla?s
> "Vuelvo Al Sur", Susana Rinaldi and many others.? 
> 
> Enjoy the Tango!
> Stefan 
> 
> Stefan Karrer
> Milan Entertainment, Inc.
> 6725 Sunset Blvd Ste 320
> Los Angeles, CA 90028
> Phone: (818) 849-3349
> Fax: (818) 849-3341
> stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com
> www.milanrecords.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

-- 
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01

From c.roques at mchsi.com  Fri Aug 21 10:44:55 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:44:55 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Book review
Message-ID: <082120091444.3491.4A8EB2E700090EDB00000DA3223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

There are a couple of new books out about the tango experience.  I have read and written a review of one of them in The Tango Times, "Tango, An Argentine Love Story" (Seal Press) by Camille Cusumano.  It is an excellent read and one all will relate to on some level.  If you are interested in reading the review and receiving The Tango Times (going strong after 19 yrs), you can email Danel and Maria at:  info at danelymaria.com or you can reply to me directly and I will send you a copy.
Cheers,
Charles

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 21 11:31:29 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:31:29 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] 50 essential tangos
Message-ID: <SNT115-W3754E397F866C31084311597FC0@phx.gbl>


Dear friends,
 
You may download the Amazon MP3 Cd "50 essential tangos" for $1,99.
 
See Milan Records note at  http://www.pr.com/press-release/170684
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook.
http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009

From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 11:45:43 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:45:43 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
	starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com>

Trini, Astor Piazzolla is widely danced to, as well as in Milongas in
Buenos Aires. Most milongas in BsAS now are much more open in choices
to music and not as traditional as they used to be.

Thanks,Bettina

On 8/21/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just got this from Milan Records.   The download at Amazon.com is $1.99 for
> all 50 songs - a very good deal.  The special started last night (Thursday).
>  The album does not contain much dance music, but it's a good place for
> those who need to build a tango collection.
>
> Carlos "The Voice" Gardel is the Elvis of Tango.  His rich voice popularized
> tango all over the world until his death in 1935.  Every tanguero should
> have him in their music collection.
>
> Astor Piazzolla is another profound influence in tango, as well and is
> another "must have".  Although Piazzolla is not considered to be dance music
> and is not played at the milongas in Buenos Aires, his pieces have been
> quite popular with the nuevo crowd.
>
> After today, prices goes back to $5.99.
>
> This is a special partnership with Amazon.com.  If we show them our support,
> it will encourage Amazon to support more tango.
>
> Then, email Stefan and ask for dance classics.  :-)
> I do not have any financial interests in this event.
>
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/20/09, Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Stefan <stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com>
> Subject: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
> To: patangos at yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 8:22 PM
>
>
>
> Hi there,
>
> This is just a reminder that starting tonight, and for a limited amount of
> time only, Amazon.com MP3 and Milan Records are offering "50 Essential
> Tangos" for $1.99.
>
> You can download the entire bundle for $1.99 here:
> http://www.amazon.com/50-Essential-Tangos/dp/B002KWHAOU/
>
> The bundle includes a comprehensive collection of Argentine Tango beginning
> with the mythical years of Carlos Gardel and evolving to the rebirth of
> ?Nuevo Tango? with Astor Piazzolla. It continues on to classic post World
> War II compositions revisited by the Tango virtuosos of the last quarter of
> the 20th Century such as Richard Galliano and Nestor Marconi. It also
> includes Roberto Goyeneche, the unmistakable voice behind Piazzolla?s
> "Vuelvo Al Sur", Susana Rinaldi and many others.
>
> Enjoy the Tango!
> Stefan
>
> Stefan Karrer
> Milan Entertainment, Inc.
> 6725 Sunset Blvd Ste 320
> Los Angeles, CA 90028
> Phone: (818) 849-3349
> Fax: (818) 849-3341
> stefan.karrer at milanrecords.com
> www.milanrecords.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From macfroggy at aol.com  Fri Aug 21 12:15:38 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:15:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
 starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CBF091C1953784-480-1C38@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>

Bettina, Piazolla is never danced in the traditional milongas of Buenos 
Aires. Never. Nor is Gardel or that Greek folksong so popular 
elsewhere, Tango for Ephora.
But yes, the DJs of "alternative" milongas and practicas here play 
modern music and non-tango music on occasion. But only the young and/or 
foreign go there.

The milongueros would croak to hear "Libertango" played for them to 
dance to!

Cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com






Trini, Astor Piazzolla is widely danced to, as well as in Milongas in
Buenos Aires. Most milongas in BsAS now are much more open in choices
to music and not as traditional as they used to be.

Thanks,Bettina


From bettinamaria7 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 12:25:22 2009
From: bettinamaria7 at gmail.com (bettina maria)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:25:22 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
	starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <8CBF091C1953784-480-1C38@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CBF091C1953784-480-1C38@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <a6baf9ab0908210925r5575fec6sa9d6f86aec89c83d@mail.gmail.com>

There are so many milongas now in BA and there is no such thing as
just "Nuevo" - there are many cross overs now ad I know some DJ's
that play a variety of all kinds of music - things are very differet
now than a few years ago, I have lived here 2 years and hear what is
being played, sorry. BA is not just old milongueros any longer since
awhile, many of those cannot even come anymore to the milongas as they
are too old and sadly, no longer able to dance.
Just this last week two new milongas have opened. There is a large new
generation now in Tango that dances traditional as Alternative and
Dj's are providing that. Things are changing - even in Buenos Aires.
And what I love here things are not that black and white, it is much
more organic. There is also no such thing as "the young" or "the old
milongueros" go into many Milongas here and it is all mixed.

On 8/21/09, macfroggy at aol.com <macfroggy at aol.com> wrote:
> Bettina, Piazolla is never danced in the traditional milongas of Buenos
> Aires. Never. Nor is Gardel or that Greek folksong so popular
> elsewhere, Tango for Ephora.
> But yes, the DJs of "alternative" milongas and practicas here play
> modern music and non-tango music on occasion. But only the young and/or
> foreign go there.
>
> The milongueros would croak to hear "Libertango" played for them to
> dance to!
>
> Cherie
> http://tangocherie.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Trini, Astor Piazzolla is widely danced to, as well as in Milongas in
> Buenos Aires. Most milongas in BsAS now are much more open in choices
> to music and not as traditional as they used to be.
>
> Thanks,Bettina
>
>

From macfroggy at aol.com  Fri Aug 21 12:45:10 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:45:10 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
 starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908210925r5575fec6sa9d6f86aec89c83d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com><a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com><8CBF091C1953784-480-1C38@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908210925r5575fec6sa9d6f86aec89c83d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CBF095E1A74F8A-480-1CF5@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>

Bettina,

Do we live in the same city?
I've lived for 6 years here in Buenos Aires and dance and teach tango 
with my partner, Ruben Aybar. We go to dance all the time at the 
traditional milongas, which NEVER play "alternative" music. It is most 
definitely not "all mixed!" Do you go to Region Leonesa, Lo de Celia, 
La Ideal, El Beso, Maipu, Gricel, El Arranque, Sunderland, etc? (Ok, 
Maipu does have the alternative milonga, La Marshal, on Weds.)

And it is true that the old milongueros sometimes do go to the "young" 
milongas in order to dance with young women, but not to dance well.

Cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com









There are so many milongas now in BA and there is no such thing as

just "Nuevo" - there are many cross overs now ad I know some DJ's

that play a variety of all kinds of music - things are very differet

now than a few years ago, I have lived here 2 years and hear what is

being played, sorry. BA is not just old milongueros any longer since

awhile, many of those cannot even come anymore to the milongas as they

are too old and sadly, no longer able to dance.

Just this last week two new milongas have opened. There is a large new

generation now in Tango that dances traditional as Alternative and

Dj's are providing that. Things are changing - even in Buenos Aires.

And what I love here things are not that black and white, it is much

more organic. There is also no such thing as "the young" or "the old

milongueros" go into many Milongas here and it is all mixed.



On 8/21/09, macfroggy at aol.com <macfroggy at aol.com> wrote:

> Bettina, Piazolla is never danced in the traditional milongas of 
Buenos

> Aires. Never. Nor is Gardel or that Greek folksong so popular

> elsewhere, Tango for Ephora.

> But yes, the DJs of "alternative" milongas and practicas here play

> modern music and non-tango music on occasion. But only the young 
and/or

> foreign go there.

>

> The milongueros would croak to hear "Libertango" played for them to

> dance to!

>

> Cherie

> http://tangocherie.blogspot.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Trini, Astor Piazzolla is widely danced to, as well as in Milongas in

> Buenos Aires. Most milongas in BsAS now are much more open in choices

> to music and not as traditional as they used to be.

>

> Thanks,Bettina

>

>

_______________________________________________

Tango-L mailing list

Tango-L at mit.edu

http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l












From rontango at rocketmail.com  Fri Aug 21 13:34:46 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:34:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla in Buenos Aires Milongas
In-Reply-To: <a6baf9ab0908210925r5575fec6sa9d6f86aec89c83d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908210845q170400d1t36ab1ac81c4b140@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CBF091C1953784-480-1C38@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6baf9ab0908210925r5575fec6sa9d6f86aec89c83d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <637371.83639.qm@web111808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

OK, be specific. In what milongas is Piazzolla played for dancing tango and who are the DJs playing it? I have NEVER heard Piazzolla played at a milonga in Buenos Aires. Maybe I'm going to the wrong milongas!! (Ha!!) Besides, you can't dance tango to Piazzolla. (Piazzolla said so himself).

Nothing wrong with the music, it's just not for dancing.

Ron


----- Original Message ----
> From: bettina maria <bettinamaria7 at gmail.com>
> To: macfroggy at aol.com
> Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:25:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
> 
> There are so many milongas now in BA and there is no such thing as
> just "Nuevo" - there are many cross overs now ad I know some DJ's
> that play a variety of all kinds of music - things are very differet
> now than a few years ago, I have lived here 2 years and hear what is
> being played, sorry. BA is not just old milongueros any longer since
> awhile, many of those cannot even come anymore to the milongas as they
> are too old and sadly, no longer able to dance.
> Just this last week two new milongas have opened. There is a large new
> generation now in Tango that dances traditional as Alternative and
> Dj's are providing that. Things are changing - even in Buenos Aires.
> And what I love here things are not that black and white, it is much
> more organic. There is also no such thing as "the young" or "the old
> milongueros" go into many Milongas here and it is all mixed. On 8/21/09, 
> macfroggy at aol.com wrote:
> > Bettina, Piazolla is never danced in the traditional milongas of Buenos
> > Aires. Never. Nor is Gardel or that Greek folksong so popular
> > elsewhere, Tango for Ephora.
> > But yes, the DJs of "alternative" milongas and practicas here play
> > modern music and non-tango music on occasion. But only the young and/or
> > foreign go there.
> >
> > The milongueros would croak to hear "Libertango" played for them to
> > dance to!
> >
> > Cherie
> > http://tangocherie.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Trini, Astor Piazzolla is widely danced to, as well as in Milongas in
> > Buenos Aires. Most milongas in BsAS now are much more open in choices
> > to music and not as traditional as they used to be.
> >
> > Thanks,Bettina
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 



      


From c.roques at mchsi.com  Fri Aug 21 13:35:35 2009
From: c.roques at mchsi.com (c.roques@mchsi.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:35:35 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] 50 "Essential" Tangos, etc.
Message-ID: <082120091735.5038.4A8EDAE700099534000013AE223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>

Many of the tangos offered in the set aren't really that great, at least as dancing music.  Mostly they are a subjective selection of big hits, mostly vocal and not representative of what was and/or is played for dancing.  If you have a decent collection of tangos, I wouldn't bother getting these (although they are cheap) but if you don't, then add these to your collections, but don't expect great dance songs.

As to Bettina's assertion that the music is more eclectic these days, that is most likely true, but  I still think it depends on where you go and which night.  Many milongas have started that cater to the alternative crowd but there are still traditional ones.  I have never heard alternative music at Sunderland or Sin Rumbo (or Gricel, but that can also depend on which night you go.)  Some nights have different organizers who play for a different crowd so it is always good to check who is running it that particular night.  I know people who have gone to Bs. As. and never been to those milongas so their impression of what is being played is different.
One of the great things about Sunderland for those who looking for the classic tango is that it is not near downtown so many people don't want to travel out that far to dance unless they are hard-core traditionalists.   So you don't see many nuevo people there.  People dress up and the music is classic tango, as is the dancing.  It is well worth the trip, if only to watch the elegant dancers that go there.

There are still options for dancing either way, and hopefully people will always have that choice.  The old milongueros (and for the most part they are all older... there is really no such thing as a young milonguero) are dying off but there are still younger dancers who follow and teach the classic style.

Cheers


From sl at stevelittler.com  Fri Aug 21 16:27:08 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:27:08 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99
 starting tonight
In-Reply-To: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>

Well, I bought it and for me, I DON'T see it as essential for 
traditional dancers. The early stuff with Gardel is scratchy. The 
Piazolla is from a live album. A lot of the other stuff has more of a 
piano bar/jazz feeling to me. There is NOTHING in the collection that I 
have ever heard at a traditional milonga here in Florida. (Whenever I 
have heard a Piazolla tanda at a traditional milonga here in Florida, it 
was a studio cut - NOT a live cut.)

Nuevo fans might find a few cuts they like.

El Stevito de Gainesville

From keith at totango.net  Fri Aug 21 16:50:49 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:50:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] History related to news these days
Message-ID: <60672.65.93.192.218.1250887849.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>


Hello Friends;

Last night, I got to hug Tine Herreman because she is here in Montreal
working this
weekend.  :-)

I hope I will see her for private time aside from last night when she
visited my milonga late.

Tonight and tomorrow I can go to where she will do her thing in different
milongas.

I was just thinking that I would like her to see this page (Tine!). You, too.

http://www.totango.net/recordsandMontreal.html


From rontango at rocketmail.com  Fri Aug 21 16:51:03 2009
From: rontango at rocketmail.com (RonTango)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----

> From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
> 
> Well, I bought it and for me, I DON'T see it as essential for 
> traditional dancers. The early stuff with Gardel is scratchy. The 
> Piazolla is from a live album. A lot of the other stuff has more of a 
> piano bar/jazz feeling to me. There is NOTHING in the collection that I 
> have ever heard at a traditional milonga here in Florida. (Whenever I 
> have heard a Piazolla tanda at a traditional milonga here in Florida, it 
> was a studio cut - NOT a live cut.) Nuevo fans might find a few cuts they like. 
> El Stevito de Gainesville

Piazzolla is not played at traditional milongas - only tango music from the tango dance orchestras of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, with an occasional tanda of a modern orchestra (after 1960) playing in that style. This is what is played in the overwhelming majority of milongas in Buenos Aires. It is the music, in part, that defines a milonga as 'traditional', although using that label for a milonga is as redundant as using 'Argentine tango' to describe the tango danced in Buenos Aires milongas. The deviations from the cultural tradition are what need the modifiers - 'alternative milongas' and 'nuevo (tango)'.

Ron
.. 


      


From sl at stevelittler.com  Fri Aug 21 17:23:51 2009
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:23:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	<4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>
	<750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A8F1067.5030407@stevelittler.com>

Heh...yeah, I know what you are saying. But here in Florida
(Tallahassee, Tampa, Sarasota, Gainesville - except for Tango y Te')
they usually slip in some ALT or Nuevo - maybe 5%.

El Stevito de Gainesville

RonTango wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
>
>   
>> From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for $1.99 starting tonight
>>
>> Well, I bought it and for me, I DON'T see it as essential for 
>> traditional dancers. The early stuff with Gardel is scratchy. The 
>> Piazolla is from a live album. A lot of the other stuff has more of a 
>> piano bar/jazz feeling to me. There is NOTHING in the collection that I 
>> have ever heard at a traditional milonga here in Florida. (Whenever I 
>> have heard a Piazolla tanda at a traditional milonga here in Florida, it 
>> was a studio cut - NOT a live cut.) Nuevo fans might find a few cuts they like. 
>> El Stevito de Gainesville
>>     
>
> Piazzolla is not played at traditional milongas - only tango music from the tango dance orchestras of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, with an occasional tanda of a modern orchestra (after 1960) playing in that style. This is what is played in the overwhelming majority of milongas in Buenos Aires. It is the music, in part, that defines a milonga as 'traditional', although using that label for a milonga is as redundant as using 'Argentine tango' to describe the tango danced in Buenos Aires milongas. The deviations from the cultural tradition are what need the modifiers - 'alternative milongas' and 'nuevo (tango)'.
>
> Ron
> .. 
>
>
>   


From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Fri Aug 21 17:39:16 2009
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (Barbra)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:39:16 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com><4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>
	<750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CBF0BEF7727A1C-1054-6A64@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com>

I bought the album, and I agree, not necessarily the 50 songs that I 
would find essential, but interesting and more than a few new ones for 
me.  I also haven't heard, so far, anything I would really dance to, 
but there are some very nice listening songs.

I don't know if anyone has experienced this - but I have changed a lot 
in how I think about tango music.  When I began, anything and 
everything was fair game, I danced to anything "tango" and a lot that 
wasn't.  Then, every song was measured against a "danceability 
standard."  Now, I find that I have two kinds of music, dancing and 
listening.....has this been the case for other folks?


-----Original Message-----
From: RonTango <rontango at rocketmail.com>
To: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>; Trini y Sean (PATangoS) 
<patangos at yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 21, 2009 4:51 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas






----- Original Message ----

> From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Astor Piazzolla & 50 Essential Tangos for 
$1.99
starting tonight
>
> Well, I bought it and for me, I DON'T see it as essential for
> traditional dancers. The early stuff with Gardel is scratchy. The
> Piazolla is from a live album. A lot of the other stuff has more of a
> piano bar/jazz feeling to me. There is NOTHING in the collection that 
I
> have ever heard at a traditional milonga here in Florida. (Whenever I
> have heard a Piazolla tanda at a traditional milonga here in Florida, 
it
> was a studio cut - NOT a live cut.) Nuevo fans might find a few cuts 
they
like.
> El Stevito de Gainesville

Piazzolla is not played at traditional milongas - only tango music from 
the
tango dance orchestras of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, with an occasional 
tanda of a
modern orchestra (after 1960) playing in that style. This is what is 
played in
the overwhelming majority of milongas in Buenos Aires. It is the music, 
in part,
that defines a milonga as 'traditional', although using that label for 
a milonga
is as redundant as using 'Argentine tango' to describe the tango danced 
in
Buenos Aires milongas. The deviations from the cultural tradition are 
what need
the modifiers - 'alternative milongas' and 'nuevo (tango)'.

Ron
..




_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l






From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 21 17:41:48 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:41:48 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Piaazzola at the milongas
Message-ID: <SNT115-W30453F452625BFE69793EE97FC0@phx.gbl>


Ron asks to Bettina : "OK, be specific. In what milongas is Piazzolla played for dancing tango and who are the DJs playing it? I have NEVER heard Piazzolla played at a milonga in Buenos Aires. Maybe I'm going to the wrong milongas!! "
 
 
   Ron sit down to wait for the answer as it may take a while.:)) If you wait standing you will get tired.
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook.
http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009

From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 21 19:02:02 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:02:02 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] So you can't dance to Piazzolla?
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS334D4B3571D1F472C6D61AEFC0@phx.gbl>

Ron said:

>(Ha!!) Besides, you can't dance tango to Piazzolla. (Piazzolla said so 
>himself).


Except for "Milonga del Angel" which I think is his most danceable piece. 
It does require musicality on the part of the dancer and a connection 
between the dancers to pull pull it off.



V



 


From tango22 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 20:02:16 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:02:16 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Screaming Tango singers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.821.1250871927.3851.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.821.1250871927.3851.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <F9E8226A-668A-482A-9300-9816A79A053B@gmail.com>

Hey Keith,  you could be talking about dancers here.  Excuse the  
edits...
>
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:31:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith at totango.net>

> ......... or because they just haven't enough confidence/experience/ 
> knowledge to get what a compelling DANCE is all about.
>
> A great DANCER knows the difference between "power" and AGGRESSION.  
> But, one has to have finely-tuned ears and a calm, confident  
> disposition to find
> the right level.
>
> The DANCER wanted to be/became the "star," as opposed to the DANCE  
> and the
> orquesta as it in in the music we all love to dance to.
>
> Really, someone who FORCES is under-confident and should just calm  
> down.
> Don't "try" so hard...................
>

...............In their defence, I believe that when tango went into a  
kind of nose-dive
in the 50's, when arrangements changed to feature the singer right off  
the
top of the song instead of half-way through;.....................

Not so sure about this paragraph though.  Was there not always a  
singing genre of Tango?. (Tango Cancion - e.g., Gardel; Libertad  
Lamarque; Rinaldi etc., ) as well as the dance genre, where the  
vocalist mostly sings "the bridge", as you say, as part of the  
orchestra. (Was it Canaro who introduced the vocalist to dance music?   
I remember reading that somewhere).

Too many DJ's and dancers can not differentiate between Tango for  
dancing and Tango for listening (Tango cancion or Piazzolla's concert  
music).  The distinction is even more important today with so much  
experimental Tango /latin /  jazz / pop fusion.  DJ's must be very  
selective with modern music, but in my experience many will play any  
latin or rock beat, as long as it has a bandoneon in the mix and they  
can tag it Nuevo.
:)
John

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sat Aug 22 01:07:30 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:07:30 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <8CBF0BEF7727A1C-1054-6A64@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <121137.99156.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<4A8F031C.3060602@stevelittler.com>
	<750918.51520.qm@web111820.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<8CBF0BEF7727A1C-1054-6A64@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370908212207t6c6f3043jcdba290bbc7b5395@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Barbra <buffmilonguera at aol.com> wrote:

>   Now, I find that I have two kinds of music, dancing and
> listening.....has this been the case for other folks?
>
>
     Yes, and a typical tango show reflects this distinction.  Sometimes the
orchestra plays by itself, sometimes a singer comes on stage and sings a
tango, and only maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the time are there dancers on the stage.

Huck

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 22 11:24:26 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 08:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370908212207t6c6f3043jcdba290bbc7b5395@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <171141.81463.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I didn't really start developing an ear for dance music until I studied with Susana Miller and Robert Hauk.  What I really appreciate about Susana is her directness and clarity.  Very Argentine.

Even though the album, as I said, was not dance music, I still think that it's important to know Piazzolla and Gardel to more fully appreciate the Argentine culture, the change in instruments, the evolution of tango music.  It gives you something with which to further contrast and compare.  Sometimes I like to use Piazzolla for some warm-up exercises.

Trini de Pittsburgh



--- On Sat, 8/22/09, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 1:07 AM
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:39 PM,
> Barbra <buffmilonguera at aol.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >???Now, I find that I have two kinds of
> music, dancing and
> > listening.....has this been the case for other folks?
> >
> >
> ? ???Yes, and a typical tango show
> reflects this distinction.? Sometimes the
> orchestra plays by itself, sometimes a singer comes on
> stage and sings a
> tango, and only maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the time are there
> dancers on the stage.
> 
> Huck
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From macfroggy at aol.com  Sat Aug 22 12:14:11 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:14:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazzolla is not played at Traditional Milongas
In-Reply-To: <171141.81463.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CBF15AB7FEA296-480-2EA7@webmail-me01.sysops.aol.com>

After the CroMagnon tragedy in 2004, one of the few milongas that was 
allowed to stay open was Club Espanol. Dany Borelli, the DJ, used 
Piazzolla as the cortina because all other music was banned. Or rather, 
for fear of being closed as were most of the milongas, only "musica 
nacional" was played. At this time, there were no tandas of tropical or 
rock 'n roll, because salsa clubs, rock clubs, all other dance venues 
were closed for months. People flocked to provincia where they could 
still dance tango. Starving and frantic dancers came to Club Espanol 
and waited in the lobby to be allowed to enter. The energy was 
palpable. It was a frenzy.


<<Even though the album, as I said, was not dance music, I still think 
that it's
important to know Piazzolla and Gardel to more fully appreciate the 
Argentine
culture, the change in instruments, the evolution of tango music.  It 
gives you
something with which to further contrast and compare.  Sometimes I like 
to use
Piazzolla for some warm-up exercises.

Trini de Pittsburgh>>


From dblioness2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 22 13:59:50 2009
From: dblioness2000 at yahoo.com (dierdre black)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dance to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <331997.90650.qm@web35305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Also, love "vuelvo el Sur"; "Sur"; "Oblivion" and occasionally, rarely, certain, more interesting arrangements of "Libertango".  cheers,  db


      

From brick at fastpack.com  Sat Aug 22 14:17:23 2009
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:17:23 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20
In-Reply-To: <mailman.765.1250957567.16290.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.765.1250957567.16290.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <ca2c2380908221117g2f38abfbs8ad4502d58cafde3@mail.gmail.com>

I'm visiting Buenos Aires right now, and have already had some
wonderful evenings with list members.

I would love to meet others that live here or may be visiting. If you
would be interested in getting together, or meeting at a milonga,
please contact me off list. I'm staying in San Telmo, and I'll be here
through October.

brick at fastpack.com
http://www.brickrobbins.com
skype: brickster3072

From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Sat Aug 22 14:06:09 2009
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:06:09 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] piazolla in the milongas
In-Reply-To: <mailman.765.1250957567.16290.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.765.1250957567.16290.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4A903391.5050107@lavidacondeby.com>

I have been dancing here since 2000 and living here since 2004.  In the 
milongas I go to they would never play Piazolla nor any of the 
electronic music.  In addition to the ones mentioned there are many many 
other milongas in the barrios such as Saraza, Imagen, Club Rivadavia, 
Sin Rumbo, Los Glorias Argentinas, Sunderland, that would never ever 
play alternative or Piazolla.  These milongas are drawing people of all 
ages.

If your world is Villa Malcom, Practica X, and so on, then yes you are 
going to hear that music.  Those milonga/practicas are mostly frequented 
by foreigners and young people looking for something other than the 
traditional boliche.  I know many young people who go to those places 
who don't dance and don't want to learn.  Those milongas are cheaper and 
"mas tranquila." in the words of one of my young friends.

Yes there are two new alternative milongas.  Most of them do not last.  
The ones that have are the same 5 that have been around for the last 6 
or so years.  If that is what you like, hey, enjoy, but don't kid 
yourself that tango here in Buenos Aires is becoming open embrace with 
the same repetitive step because it is not.    BTW, 3 new traditional 
milongas opened last week - 2 at Maipu and  new organizers at Leonesa on 
Wednesday.

The old guys do pop up in the alternative milongas.  Do you want to know 
what they call it?  "Fishing" or worse "Shopping."  Not all but a great 
percentage of them.  They might go to dance, but with other intentions 
well honed over years in the "traditional" milongas.

I am always amazed at this attitude held by foreigners who want to dance 
alternatively about Argentine tango danced here.  It is like they have 
to win a war and are going to try and prove it anyway they can.  There 
is no contest.  120 milongas that are traditional and around 10 that are 
not. There is an attitude in general that it is the foreigners who are 
going to shape what is danced here.  Whether it is here when they come 
here to dance or in their own countries. Tango is part of the Argentine 
heritage not something invented for tourists to spend money on.  Why 
cannot people just enjoy the dance for what it is?


From professionalsguild at gmail.com  Sat Aug 22 20:58:32 2009
From: professionalsguild at gmail.com (Phil Seyer)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:58:32 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Pulpo enchanches
Message-ID: <b074f1780908221758k5b319b9ta18088001e4f74a6@mail.gmail.com>

I really loved doing smooth Pulpo enganches with my dance partner;
unfortunately, she has moved to a distance city. Ganchos are usually
staccato kicks, but Pulpo's enganche style is to smoothly hook legs with the
follower and hold the hook for a moment or two. It's very sensual and fun to
do. I've never seen anyone do it at the local milongas I've attended, expect
when there was a special Pulpo lesson before the party.

Has anyone ever tried a Pulpo enchanche while dancing socially with a new
partner? Any thoughts on the matter?

Phil
http://www.Argentine-tango.com

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 23 16:00:11 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:00:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Pulpo enchanches
Message-ID: <311195.65615.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sat, 8/22/09, Phil Seyer <professionalsguild at gmail.com> wrote:


> Has anyone ever tried a Pulpo enchanche while dancing
> socially with a new
> partner? Any thoughts on the matter?


She'd better be a pretty good dancer already.  Usually only my old partners try it on me, but when they do try it for the first time, it's nice when they do it very quickly and they don't try to hold my leg too long.  Like a nice surprise.  It helps be get mentally prepared for it.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From tango22 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 24 20:04:19 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:04:19 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Pulpo enchanches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.593.1251044019.21540.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.593.1251044019.21540.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DC916D33-047B-436F-81E6-DBBB3547BABE@gmail.com>

>
I suggest you do not eat and dance at the same time.  it is bad  
manners to spill food on a lady whilst dancing.
:)

> From: Phil Seyer <professionalsguild at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Smooth Pulpo enchanches
>
> Has anyone ever tried a Pulpo enchanche while dancing socially with  
> a new
> partner? Any thoughts on the matter?

From al at sgi.com  Tue Aug 25 06:34:16 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:34:16 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo	&
 Giselle
In-Reply-To: <002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
References: <SNT115-W610659DE81058CADA60CF197050@phx.gbl>	<006f01ca1c54$3f346770$bd9d3650$@net>
	<002401ca1c72$9e820110$db860330$@com.au>
Message-ID: <4A93BE28.3050109@sgi.com>

Anton Stanley wrote:
> Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
> social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
> ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill." 
> 
> Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
> Giselle dance like in the video. 

He said they brought *that kind of mastery* to the social floor, not
the exact same dancing.

Given that he said they did it with complete awareness of the
ronda, he even specifically implied it *wouldn't* be danced "like
in the video".

From professionalsguild at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 19:44:06 2009
From: professionalsguild at gmail.com (Phil Seyer)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:44:06 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Dance Positions
Message-ID: <b074f1780908251644m5ed81b10v4773bfdd46c6bc7e@mail.gmail.com>

When I think of dance positions, I can only think of two basic positions:
close and open.
Yet someone recently talked about 3 dance positions. Anyone have a thoughts
about this?

I've seen and I sometimes also to do a "shadow" position, but that's rather
rare, I think.
In shadow position the leader dances behind the follower.

Phil
http://www.ArgentineTango.com

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 27 09:34:02 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Dance Positions
In-Reply-To: <b074f1780908251644m5ed81b10v4773bfdd46c6bc7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b074f1780908251644m5ed81b10v4773bfdd46c6bc7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167671.98338.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Phil Seyer <professionalsguild at gmail.com>
> 
> When I think of dance positions, I can only think of two basic positions:
> close and open.
> Yet someone recently talked about 3 dance positions. Anyone have a thoughts
> about this?
> 

All I can think of is the 2 types of 'close embrace'. Salon style with a V shape 
and Milonguero [Apilado]?Style with full chest- to-chest contact.

Jack


      


From psslavsky at gmail.com  Thu Aug 27 20:55:14 2009
From: psslavsky at gmail.com (Pamela Slavsky)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:55:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] best floor finish for tango
Message-ID: <007601ca277a$34f22be0$9ed683a0$@com>

Greetings,

 

The small gallery where we have our Milonga is having their old wood floor
refinished. They asked us to find out what type of finish is desirable for a
dance floor and will also protect the wood from wear (and is easy care). In
general, I'm guessing the higher gloss the stickier the floor? 

 

Any recommendations? 

 

Many thanks,

 

--Pamela


From tango22 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 21:04:50 2009
From: tango22 at gmail.com (Tango22)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:04:50 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] best floor finish for tango
In-Reply-To: <mailman.949.1251484561.5382.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.949.1251484561.5382.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <774A3D0B-ADA6-4211-9C9F-25FA11DF69E4@gmail.com>

Polyurethane finishes are not suitable for dancing.  They scratch,  
wear and can not be readily maintained.  They can be cleaned, but you  
can't remove scratches and swirls.

Standard floor wax is suitable for dancing and easy to maintain, using  
a product like Johnson Snapback.  It needs more frequent treatment  
than polyurethane, but it will not scratch and always looks great with  
regular maintenance.    A commercial janitor supplier would be able to  
advise you.
Regards,
John


> The small gallery where we have our Milonga is having their old wood  
> floor
> refinished. They asked us to find out what type of finish is  
> desirable for a
> dance floor and will also protect the wood from wear (and is easy  
> care). In
> general, I'm guessing the higher gloss the stickier the floor?
> Any recommendations?
>


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 29 13:17:30 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 10:17:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] best floor finish for tango
In-Reply-To: <774A3D0B-ADA6-4211-9C9F-25FA11DF69E4@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.949.1251484561.5382.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<774A3D0B-ADA6-4211-9C9F-25FA11DF69E4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161747.49883.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I wouldn't recommend wax - it really messes up dance shoes with 
a suede sole and makes them very slippery. 

I'd recommend a few coats of a sealant that gets into the texture of the 
wood but leaves nothing on the surface. No maintenance required, other
than a damp mop.

Jack

> From: Tango22 <tango22 at gmail.com>
> 
> Standard floor wax is suitable for dancing and easy to maintain, using? 
> a product like Johnson Snapback.? It needs more frequent treatment? 
> than polyurethane, but it will not scratch and always looks great with? 
> regular maintenance.???> 


      


From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 29 15:12:07 2009
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:12:07 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] best floor finish for tango
In-Reply-To: <161747.49883.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.949.1251484561.5382.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<774A3D0B-ADA6-4211-9C9F-25FA11DF69E4@gmail.com> 
	<161747.49883.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <BLU127-W906736AECD833194D8CC399F40@phx.gbl>


fwiw
 
our dance floor is a suspended floor made out of osb. i personally like the pattern of the osb, so we finished the floor with 4 coats of commercial water based garage floor clear epoxy, so the osb shows through perfectly. this floor has been problem free for a number of years with heavy tango, exotic and ballet dancing as well as martial arts use. we were going to do a final finish with polyurethane, to smooth it a bit more, but never did. we chose to leave a bit of "tooth" on the osb, so the dancers would always be able "grab some floor". a quick wipe with a damp cloth and the floor is ready to go

The Tangonista
Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music

_________________________________________________________________
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

From dchester at charter.net  Sun Aug 30 13:15:41 2009
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:15:41 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] best floor finish for tango
Message-ID: <000301ca2995$80bcc040$823640c0$@net>

Pamela,

 

I'd recommend talking to Ellen at Providence Tango, to find out what they
used, as I think they have the best floor around (and I'm not the only one
who thinks so).

 

David


From htreitman at gmail.com  Sun Aug 30 15:46:00 2009
From: htreitman at gmail.com (Helaine Treitman)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:46:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Portable dance floors?
Message-ID: <e8966d610908301246w41bd45b5qd5493235d27cd92f@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone recommend portable dance floors that you use or that you've
used, and give me an idea about cost?  I'd like to recommend a few
suppliers to the mall director who's asking me to do a regular tango
initiative in a beautiful open space. It should assemble, break down,
and be transported relatively quickly and easily.

I'd also be grateful to hear which ones to avoid.

Thanks,
Helaine
-- 
http://www.NaplesTango.com &
http://www.HelaineTreitmanTango.com
239-776-6535
239-236-0984 (fax)

From randycook95476 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 30 18:27:02 2009
From: randycook95476 at yahoo.com (randy cook)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] A Tango Class for Buddhists
Message-ID: <553429.83722.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

A Tango Class for Buddhists
Saint Yrieux-sous-Aixe, France
Sunday,  June 28, 2009
8:00 PM

Janet Lott has arranged to teach a tango class at the Chateau, once the home of a wealthy Limoges porcelain manufacturing family, now a Tibetan Buddhist meditation center.  Janet has been affiliated with the Buddhists for many years, teaching yoga and dance here in France and in Boulder, Colorado.  This evening, she has enlisted me to partner her for a demonstration dance, and to help her teach the class.  The management of the Chateau has given us the Shrine Room, a spacious, airy place with Tibetan tapestries, an altar, and a beautiful hardwood floor.  Early evening sunlight pours in through a pair of western windows.  The room glows.

We've been requested to leave our shoes by the door.   We push the meditation mats up front by the altar in order to make room to dance.  Janet puts on some D'Arienzo, and the two of us warm up in our stocking feet.  

We quickly have a crowd.  Janet has posted the announcement of the lesson on the activities board.  There isn't a lot to do here in the country on a Sunday night.  The younger residents of the Chateau, in particular, are eager to give tango a try.  One young man shows up wearing a bow tie, sweat pants, and an evening jacket. Another tells us of dancing in the streets of Kiev, his hometown in the Ukraine.  Another says that his father used to play the tangos of Carlos Gardel in Santiago, Chile.

English, not French, is the lingua franca here.  There are students from the Ukraine, Hungary, Germany, Switzerland, Brazil, Mexico, Chile, and New Jersey.  Only a few are from France.  Since everyone speaks some English, that's the language Janet uses to teach.  Occasionally, they remind her to speak more slowly.

Janet lines the students up on one side of the Shrine Room, facing into the evening sunlight from the west windows.  She teaches them how to walk with intention, transferring the weight all-at-once from foot to foot, so as never to be caught in the middle.  The crowd of 25 people is very responsive.  When Janet talks of body dynamics, she is speaking a language they are trained to understand.  This is how they learned to meditate.

I would not say that the Buddhists are necessarily a better class of dancers than any other.  They make all the beginner's mistakes.  They walk like robots, or they try to skate.  When Janet pairs them up to walk together in line of dance, the couples wander blindly all over the floor like newborn kittens.  But when she talks to them of being "grounded," of knowing which foot the partner is on, of not "anticipating" the lead, they understand instantly.

So Janet and I have every tango teachers' dream--a roomful of good-humored but serious students who already know that dancing isn't about steps, it's about moving together fluidly with the partner and the music.  They've got it!  The rest will be easy.

Two hours later, Janet decides to stop the lesson and give a demonstration.  She puts on a waltz, and we put on a show.   My stocking feet slip a few times on the polished floor.  Janet has to dance without heels.  But we perform with energy and affection.  The class applauds like they'd just watched the stars of Nora's Tango Week.  And I think, yes, it's true! Tango and Buddhism have a lot in common, for a tango well-danced is a little piece of Eternity, ne c'est pas? 







From alex at tangofuego.us  Mon Aug 31 15:58:51 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:58:51 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Portable Dance Floors?
Message-ID: <00bb01ca2a75$79acabe0$6d0603a0$@us>

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=p
ortable+dance+floors