From tempehuck at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:48:48 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:48:48 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Comment on the post "How do you decide who to dance
	with?"
In-Reply-To: <618261.44392.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <618261.44392.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370904011648jf8375aag6c410df5185e8c4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> I have been for so long hitting the delete key for most tango postings that
> often times i forget the reason for such mechanical and thoughtless
> behavior.
>
> So then sometimes I tell myself... maybe I am too critical or simply wrong
> about the ideas posted in the list...
>
> In these moments of self-doubt I make the mistake to read a
> posting...invariably something like the ideas below...
>
> Then I immediately remember the reasons why I should and will continue to
> hit the delete key before ever opening any of the comments in this list.


     Wow, if the above doesn't fit the category of an abusive posting
according to the new guidelines instituted in Tango-L in the last year or
so, I don't know what does.

> Out of this thread and the list.... what a waste.


     Is that a promise?

Huck

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Apr  2 17:01:47 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:01:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] April - Anyone for BsAs?
Message-ID: <20090402.140147.21076.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

April weather in Buenos Aires is the best of the year, at least if you believe the Weather.com display of average temps and precipitation.

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/ARBA0009?from=tenDay_bottomnav_business

The next day or two BsAs is predicted to suffer the trailing edge of rainstorms moving off the land, but be followed by more than a week of sunshine and mid-70s temperatures.

I'm thinking of hopping a plane to spend a few weeks there.  Anyone else with similar ambitions?

Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
http://ShapechangerTales.com




____________________________________________________________
Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsJahuVpm0wiHQrcfzF1s9sf86ZZnY85WQHdLEB8zZzTie6OKQrhS4/


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Apr  2 22:59:02 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:59:02 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] April - Anyone for BsAs?
References: <20090402.140147.21076.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <54E8BD55D8394662AB3695A2ED4039FA@michaelditkoff>

Larry:
Thanks for the endorsement of my vacation plans. I leave Tuesday for two 
weeks.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <larrynla at juno.com>
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:01 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] April - Anyone for BsAs?


> April weather in Buenos Aires is the best of the year, at least if you 
> believe the Weather.com display of average temps and precipitation.
>
> http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/ARBA0009?from=tenDay_bottomnav_business
>
> The next day or two BsAs is predicted to suffer the trailing edge of 
> rainstorms moving off the land, but be followed by more than a week of 
> sunshine and mid-70s temperatures.
>
> I'm thinking of hopping a plane to spend a few weeks there.  Anyone else 
> with similar ambitions?
>
> Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
> http://ShapechangerTales.com
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsJahuVpm0wiHQrcfzF1s9sf86ZZnY85WQHdLEB8zZzTie6OKQrhS4/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 


From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 11:41:39 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:41:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
Message-ID: <920152.9715.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Hola listeros,

As some of you know, Bajofondo is on a North American tour.  Traditionalists might not like to dance to their music, but I still recommend traditionalists to go their show.  Think of it as a fun cultural experience.  If you don't want to think of them as a tango band, then think of them as a rock band.  I went to their concert last weekend in Pittsburgh, which had a mix of tangueros and non-tango people, who way outnumbered the tangueros.  It was great to see such a positive response from the non-tango people.  As soon as the band came out, the front of the stage was filled with the rockers (lots of bouncing up and down).  There was a sliver of room in the back for those who wanted to dance, which weren't many.

The bandoneonist did a very cool solo, and the band also did a beautiful piece from the Motorcycle Diaries (written by Gustavo).  I was really impressed by the engagement of the musicians with the audience and with each other.  No sight reading.  It was great to see the musicians really into the music and how their played.  It reminded me of how D'Arienzo conducted his orchestra.  I think anyone who misses this show is missing an interesting slice of tango culture and a chance to bond with their fellow tangueros in new way.

Here is the rest of their tour dates.

Mon., April 6th ? Montreal, QC ? La TuLipe
Tues., Apr. 7th ? Boston, MA ? Middle East Downstairs
Fri., Apr. 10th ? New York, NY ? The Highline Ballroom
Sat., Apr. 11th: Washington, DC ? 9:30 Club
Wed., Apr. 15th ? Austin, TX ? One World Theatre
Thu., Apr. 16th ? Tuscon, AZ ? The Rialto Theater
Fri., Apr. 17th ? Indio, CA ? Coachella 
Sun., Apr. 19th ? San Francisco, CA ? Bimbo?s 


Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/  ?


      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 13:41:20 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Re:  Bajofondo review
Message-ID: <881759.82288.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


I believe this was meant to go to the list and not just me.

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, joanneprochaska at aol.com <joanneprochaska at aol.com> wrote:

> From: joanneprochaska at aol.com <joanneprochaska at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
> To: patangos at yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 12:32 PM

> Tim and I went to Pittsburgh to see Bajafondo last Saturday.
> The show was smokin' hot, hot, hot!
> Even though Tim and I focus on close embrace,
> "milonguero" style, I am Soooooo glad that we
> experienced this concert.? The band fed off the energy?of
> the audience, as the audience fed off their energy in
> return.??It was well worth the drive and the most
> reasonable 20.00 ticket price.? Thanks to Mr. Small's
> for bringing them, and thanks to the Tango organizers who
> guaranteed their fee (organizers, you will know what that
> means!).? Mr. Small's venue is an renovated church,
> with a sound system which was the absolute? best..? (They
> know sound, as they also have a recording studio).? The
> acoustics and speaker arrangements were perfect.? Job well
> done to everyone on all levels.
> Joanne Pogros
> Cleveland, Ohio
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Sent: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:41 am
> Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ere is the rest of their tour dates.
> Mon., April 6th ? Montreal, QC ? La TuLipe
> ues., Apr. 7th ? Boston, MA ? Middle East Downstairs
> ri., Apr. 10th ? New York, NY ? The Highline Ballroom
> at., Apr. 11th: Washington, DC ? 9:30 Club
> ed., Apr. 15th ? Austin, TX ? One World Theatre
> hu., Apr. 16th ? Tuscon, AZ ? The Rialto Theater
> ri., Apr. 17th ? Indio, CA ? Coachella 
> un., Apr. 19th ? San Francisco, CA =E
> 2 Bimbo?s 
> 
> rini de Pittsburgh
> 
> ______________________________________________
> ango-L mailing list
> ango-L at mit.edu
> ttp://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Apr  6 21:44:27 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:44:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tomorrow is the day--
Message-ID: <A6E269FFD0654E2CAA52995E6C7FFD68@michaelditkoff>

I fly for the first time to the tango mecca. Thanks for the suggestions on airlines, what to wear, etc. (I wish there was a comparable list on how to file income taxes.) It will be interesting to compare my experience with others who have posted. I might post some observations when I return, but definitely NOT a daily recap.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From joanneprochaska at aol.com  Tue Apr  7 15:13:03 2009
From: joanneprochaska at aol.com (joanneprochaska@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:13:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  Bajofondo review
In-Reply-To: <8CB85B60CFE8EC6-37C-690@Webmail-mg15.sim.aol.com>
References: <920152.9715.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<8CB84EC61B2694F-C48-243@webmail-mh01.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CB85B60CFE8EC6-37C-690@Webmail-mg15.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CB85CC0201AD8A-37C-10CE@Webmail-mg15.sim.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: joanneprochaska at aol.com
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:35 pm
Subject: Fwd: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review





-----Original Message-----
From: joanneprochaska at aol.com
To: patangos at yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review


Tim and I went to Pittsburgh to see Bajafondo last Saturday.
The show was smokin' hot, hot, hot!
Even though Tim and I focus on close embrace, "milonguero" style, I am 
Soooooo glad that we experienced this concert.? The band fed off the 
energy?of the audience, as the audience fed off their energy in 
return.??It was well worth the drive and the most reasonable 20.00 
ticket price.? Thanks to Mr. Small's for bringing them, and thanks to 
the Tango organizers who guaranteed their fee (organizers, you will 
know what that means!).? Mr. Small's venue is an renovated church, with 
a sound system which was the absolute? best..? (They know sound, as 
they also have a recording studio).? The acoustics and speaker 
arrangements were perfect.? Job well done to everyone on all levels.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio


-----Original Message-----
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:41 am
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review



Here is the rest of their tour dates.

Mon., April 6th ? Montreal, QC 8
0 La TuLipe
Tues., Apr. 7th ? Boston, MA ? Middle East Downstairs
Fri., Apr. 10th ? New York, NY ? The Highline Ballroom
Sat., Apr. 11th: Wash
ington, DC ? 9:30 Club
Wed., Apr. 15th ? Austin, TX ? One World Theatre
Thu., Apr. 16th ? Tuscon, AZ ? The Rialto Theater
Fri., Apr. 17th ? Indio, CA ? Coachella
Sun., Apr. 19th ? San Francisco, CA ? Bimbo?s


Trini de Pittsburgh


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



------------------------------------------------------------
The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!



------------------------------------------------------------
The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Apr  7 16:41:58 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:41:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
Message-ID: <49DBBA96.30403@shahrukhmerchant.com>

"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bajofondo is on a North American tour.  Traditionalists might not like to dance to their music ...

and listed cities where they will be performing (at what seem to be 
largely jazz-club and indie-music type places as opposed to hi-profile 
concert venues).

> Montreal ... Boston ... New York ... Washington ... Austin ... Tuscon ... Indio ... San Francisco

What puzzles me is that most of the cities in the list above have 
sizeable Tango populations (I'm not familiar with the size of the 
commuty in Tuscon, and quite frankly had never even heard of Indio, CA, 
but certainly all the others), both in terms of dancers and organizers; 
however, it seems that from a lack of communication or organization or 
initiative, there appears to be not a SINGLE Tango organization hosting 
them, even piggy-backing on one of the pre-arranged concerts?!

I'm one of Trini's "traditionalists," perhaps, so they wouldn't be my 
favourite music to dance to either (for more than a couple of pieces 
anyway), but they still represent Tango, and perform at a high level, so 
if someone else has done 95% of the work to get them to your city, it 
seems a real shame not to have them make a guest appearance, or even 
structure an event around their presence. With the exception of Tuscon, 
where they seem to be rushing in and out, there appears to be a 2-day or 
greater break between cities, so there's the possibility for room in 
their schedule, and it would certainly help them both financially and 
artistically.

It's too late for Montreal (and possibly for Boston), but one hopes that 
one of the Tango organizers in the other cities can take advantage of 
their presence. It would really be a win-win.

Thanks for the review, Trini.

Shahrukh

P.S. Another posting on a different orchestra coming up ...

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 16:57:30 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:57:30 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
In-Reply-To: <49DBBA96.30403@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <49DBBA96.30403@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370904071357o481c8de3i4eed4db00ec78537@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Shahrukh Merchant <
shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:

>
> > Tuscon



>
> What puzzles me is that most of the cities in the list above have
> sizeable Tango populations (I'm not familiar with the size of the
> commuty in Tuscon,


I imagine it's large--tango is pretty big in Italy.

Huck

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Apr  7 17:16:46 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:16:46 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Review of Ensemble Hyperion at Brussels Tango Festival
Message-ID: <49DBC2BE.7000101@shahrukhmerchant.com>

By a quirk of fate (and OK, some personal schedule manipulation on my 
part :-)), I happened to be at the Brussels Tango Festival, which just 
ended yesterday.

I may (or not ... since it would take a while to write ...) make the 
time to post some observations on the festival, but until then, I feel I 
really need to mention the "featured orchestra" of the festival, 
ENSEMBLE HYPERION -- see their website at www.ensemblehyperion.com 
(mostly in Italian). (They are not to be confused with the similarly 
named "Hyperion Ensemble," which is a chamber music ensemble out of 
Salzburg.)

Undoubtedly, they are well-known to European festival goers, but I had 
never heard them (nor, I admit, of them). They are based out of Italy 
and are simply one of the best Tango orchestras I have ever danced to 
(and sacrilege though it may be to say, better than most out of Buenos 
Aires, at least the ones that play at Milongas there)! (Those who know 
me know that I do not make superlative recommendations like this 
lightly, if at all.)

Their actually play SEVERAL golden-era orchestras convincingly 
(especially Pugliese, but Di Sarli and Donato as well, to name just a 
few), and are excellent musicians.

The ensemble comprised one bandoneon (Alfredo Marcucci, who is really 
excellent and a passionate player), two violins, piano, guitar, 
transverse flute and bass. Franco Luciani joined in on some pieces with 
harmonica (gives Hugo Diaz a run for his money ...). They did NOT have a 
vocalist (which admittedly would be a very tricky addition--perhaps they 
are smart in not including one), but I did not really miss that since 
the DJ'ed music had an abundance of the classic vocals.

I would suggest that North American and Asian Tango organizers consider 
inviting them, or coordinate amongst each other (okay, so I'm an 
idealist :-)) so they can justify a North American or Asian regional tour.

Also, while I have not heard any of their recordings on CD, Tango DJs 
may wish to review their recordings to add to the very thinly populated 
genre of "convincing modern recordings of classic-era arrangements."

Shahrukh

From ka at cybercom.net  Tue Apr  7 18:31:39 2009
From: ka at cybercom.net (Kevin Andresen)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:31:39 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajofondo review
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370904071357o481c8de3i4eed4db00ec78537@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <49DBBA96.30403@shahrukhmerchant.com>
	<ecf43f370904071357o481c8de3i4eed4db00ec78537@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904072231.KTR29801@mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net>

At 04:57 PM 4/7/2009, Huck Kennedy wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Shahrukh Merchant <
>shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Tuscon
>
>>
>> What puzzles me is that most of the cities in the list above have
>> sizeable Tango populations (I'm not familiar with the size of the
>> commuty in Tuscon,
>
>
>I imagine it's large--tango is pretty big in Italy.
>
>Huck

subtle...

To help me remember, my sister said the Arizona town is "spelled [like] 'Tuck-son'" (Tucson, AZ).  I've always gotten it right since then.  (perhaps I should visit her)
Kevin 


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Apr  7 18:47:37 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:47:37 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <20090407.154737.21574.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

someone wrote me---------> maybe you can take some video of the
milongas and let us see how they dance and if they have all gone
Nuevo crazy down there!

Someone already has.  Oleh Kovalchuke from Kansas City.  His YouTube page is

http://www.youtube.com/user/onetangospring

and the playlist of thirty samples starts here

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7FD82910EA34466F

Some of the videos don't show much, too many people in front of the
camera or it's too low. But well over half are good.

As for BsAs going crazy for anything: there are some 116 milongas
every week, each of them with a unique style and clientele.
NO movement is going to take over.

As for the recent comment about "too much kicking" I seem to recall
the post was about Practica X.  As in practica, as in practice?
There is where you are supposed to try new things, and everyone
expects that.  Put those same nuevo (and there's always some new
"nuevo") in a traditional milonga and those same "wild" people
are going to damn well behave themselves, or else.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com - novelette added,
  inspired by Schmitz's "Agents of Vega" series






____________________________________________________________
Study online and boost your career with a Bachelor's Degree.
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From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  8 17:16:04 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:16:04 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20090407.154737.21574.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090407.154737.21574.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS6BA2A815509D0CE8994E8AE820@phx.gbl>



> As for the recent comment about "too much kicking" I seem to recall
> the post was about Practica X.  As in practica, as in practice?
> There is where you are supposed to try new things, and everyone
> expects that.  Put those same nuevo (and there's always some new
> "nuevo") in a traditional milonga and those same "wild" people
> are going to damn well behave themselves, or else.
>

Yes you are correct on both counts. Most people seem to treat Practica X as 
a milonga and with a semi crowded dance floor there is no space to stop and 
practise.  Plus I recall that there were cortina breaks every so often 
making it more milonga like.

Cheers
 


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  9 00:06:28 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Any Nuevo Milongas?
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS6BA2A815509D0CE8994E8AE820@phx.gbl>
References: <20090407.154737.21574.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>
	<BAY102-DS6BA2A815509D0CE8994E8AE820@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <340335.11810.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


This brings up an interesting subject that I'm not sure has been discussed before. Is there any such thing as a 'Nuevo Milonga'?

As Vince points out, everyone treats Practica X as a milonga, but the organisers call it a practica and that's how it's listed in El Tangauta and B.A. Tango. Similarly, all the events at Villa Malcolm [that's Tango Cool and El Motivo], where Nuevo is predominant,?are also?listed?as practicas, not milongas. La Viruta is interesting. When I was there 2 years ago, La Viruta had gone very Nuevo and El Tangauta removed them from the list of milongas and put them under practicas. This year, they can't seem to decide and they're listed under milongas AND practicas.

In Buenos Aires, is there a deliberate attempt to exclude places that are predominantly?Tango Nuevo from what are deemed to be milongas? But, as Vince says, they're not practicas either so maybe another name is needed.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
> 
> Yes you are correct on both counts. Most people seem to treat Practica X as 
> a milonga and with a semi crowded dance floor there is no space to stop and 
> practise.? Plus I recall that there were cortina breaks every so often 
> making it more milonga like.
> 



      



From tango.society at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 01:43:34 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 00:43:34 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonga: An Oxymoron
Message-ID: <cff24c340904082243i24cb1a01u87acd34f3c1bcaa4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> This brings up an interesting subject that I'm not sure has been discussed before. Is there any such thing as a 'Nuevo Milonga'?

The term 'Nuevo Milonga' is an oxymoron.

A 'milonga' is a place where tango is danced, where certain traditions
are maintained. Among them are keeping feet on the floor, progressing
around the floor counterclockwise in a line of dance without passing
or changing lanes, where the physical space of others is not invaded
or threatened, where classic tango music from the 30s through 50s is
played in tandas with cortinas, where there is no teaching on the
dance floor, not to mention separation of men, women and couples in
different sections and the use of cabeceo to invite someone to dance,
etc, etc. This is how the Argentine tango culture defines a milonga.

There are about 100 milongas per week in the city of Buenos Aires,
more counting greater Buenos Aires province.

Nuevo, although having historical roots in tango and often danced to
tango music (often not) is a different dance from tango. Typically the
feet are not maintained on the floor and some movements do not follow
the line of dance and many challenge the personal space of others on
the dance floor. Nuevo is an exploration of movement possibilities and
many of these movements violate the codes of the milonga. Tango
focuses on attaining an intimate connection with your partner and the
music.

This is not to say that there are not social gatherings where nuevo is
danced, but they do not abide by the codes of the milongas and
therefore these gatherings cannot be called 'milongas', a defined by
Argentine tango cultural traditions. This is perhaps why EL Tangauta
and BA Tango do not list Villa Malcom gatherings and Practica X as
milongas.

It would be a good idea for the nuevo dance community to develop
another name for their social dance gatherings, at the very least for
truth is advertising. There have been several times where I have been
to so-called 'milongas' where little or no classic tango music is
played and the dancing consists sufficiently of moves designed for
exhibition so that one cannot say the codes of respecting others'
space on the dance floor is followed. There events should not be
called 'milongas'. Someone needs to come up with another name so
dancers can know what to expect when they plan to attend a dance
gathering. Perhaps 'nuevo dance' or 'nuevilonga'.

Ron


>
> As Vince points out, everyone treats Practica X as a milonga, but the organisers call it a practica and that's how it's listed in El Tangauta and B.A. Tango. Similarly, all the events at Villa Malcolm [that's Tango Cool and El Motivo], where Nuevo is predominant,?are also?listed?as practicas, not milongas. La Viruta is interesting. When I was there 2 years ago, La Viruta had gone very Nuevo and El Tangauta removed them from the list of milongas and put them under practicas. This year, they can't seem to decide and they're listed under milongas AND practicas.
>
> In Buenos Aires, is there a deliberate attempt to exclude places that are predominantly?Tango Nuevo from what are deemed to be milongas? But, as Vince says, they're not practicas either so maybe another name is needed.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
>>
>> Yes you are correct on both counts. Most people seem to treat Practica X as
>> a milonga and with a semi crowded dance floor there is no space to stop and
>> practise.? Plus I recall that there were cortina breaks every so often
>> making it more milonga like.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  9 03:11:22 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 00:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonga: An Oxymoron
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340904082243i24cb1a01u87acd34f3c1bcaa4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340904082243i24cb1a01u87acd34f3c1bcaa4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <189632.79781.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Thanks Ron, 

I agree - 100%.

But not sure if others, outside of Argentina, will agree.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society at gmail.com>
> 
> The term 'Nuevo Milonga' is an oxymoron.
> 



      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:21:52 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:21:52 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Practica
Message-ID: <BAY105-W2FB2D49CFA3DEF8695E7097830@phx.gbl>


Practica X is the name of a tango activity that normally starts with a lesson of the Nuevo Tango Style.  This is followed by a practica. 
 
People dance and practice freely as the floor is very big and there is plenty of room to practice any type of steps or figures without disturbing anyone. There are no cortinas.
 
The practica has become very popular so by midnight the floor is fairly crowded and the practica becomes a milonga with cortinas.
 
This does not necessarily means that the tango style changes, what happens is that people adjust their form of dancing to the available space.
 
They continue to do Nuevo figures, using the room without causing any problems to anyone.
 
IMO the main problem as described by other posters is not the style of tango that is danced at a milonga,it is the lack of skill to dance properly any type of tango.
 
This lack of skill will cause problems of navigation that will be more obvious and deleterious when dancing the Nuevo Style of tango.
 
Summary: I agree the tango style danced or taught at any particular place should be clearly stated. 
 
Traditional Milonga, Traditional tango, Tango milonguero or Nuevo practica-milonga.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
_________________________________________________________________
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From tangomarty at aol.com  Thu Apr  9 12:57:24 2009
From: tangomarty at aol.com (tangomarty@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:57:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] alternate names for milongas, and pet peeves
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1247.1239293834.25825.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1247.1239293834.25825.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <8CB874B6339CF92-7D8-83E2@webmail-dh31.sysops.aol.com>


In NYC there are two major locations where alternative music and/or nuevo styles are predominant:
One is the Wednesday and some?Saturdays?Tango Cafe: Alternative Music Milonga , clearly labeled as such on newyorktango.com.??The other is?the?Saturday?Practilonga, where you seem to have a choice of practicing and stoppping toward the center of the room, or keeping a line of dance in the outer periphery of the room.?? The rest of the milongas in NYC have varied ratios of traditional and modern dancers, and after a while you get to know which one has higher percentages of which. (If you are visiting,?ask a local tanguero).??More open moves are usually reserved for very late into the night, when there is space. ??However, even so armed with information, there is no guarantee you wont come across the?occasional?idiot?road-raging real estate hog, with a high?flying boleo partner, ?at a traditional crowded milonga.? ?Many times?the?worst offenders?are so called "teachers" of tango,?trying to impress students.??That really irks me, as they?clearly know what they are doing to the o
 ther dancers.? I cut more slack to the intermediate who just discovered some leg entanglement and?stops during a fast moving?vals right in front of me to set it up.? At least I can move around them, knowing they will be comatose and stationary for the foreseeable future.?But the "pro", thats another story, a real live wire,?you have no way of knowing which way he will dart like a soccer player running through a pack. Your best strategy then is for the leader to put his??back to them and protect the?follower.? But I am not sure of the etiquette in such a situation if the leader is a woman and the follower is a man.? 

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 18:49:17 2009
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:49:17 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] genre bendre
Message-ID: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>

As long as we are redefining categories for the dancing people do, I  
have a little taxonomic survey.


Here is a video of Pablo Inza and Mariela Sametband dancing to "Via  
Con Me" by Paolo Conte.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvMPXyR0qg0

How would you classify the following things?

- The music? (e.g., "swing")

- The dancing they are doing to this music? (e.g., "swing")

- The dancers? (e.g., "swing dancers")

If possible, justify your label.

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 20:13:30 2009
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:13:30 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Bajofondo review
Message-ID: <2F5E2F2B-52D4-4CA9-A0BF-0E9AF19C6DC4@gmail.com>

Shahrukh wrote:

> What puzzles me is that most of the cities in the list above have  
> sizeable Tango populations [ ... ] both in terms of dancers and  
> organizers; however, it seems that from a lack of communication or  
> organization or initiative, there appears to be not a SINGLE Tango  
> organization hosting them, even piggy-backing on one of the pre- 
> arranged concerts?!

The American Tango Institute (Chicago) newsletter just reported the  
following from the April 1 concert in Chicago.
> Bajofondo Concert & Milonga a Smash!
>
> One thousand people were completely energized by Bajofondo and  
> opener Alma de Tango last week at House of Blues! When the group  
> pulled some fans onto the stage, the SRO crowd went wild and rushed  
> the stage! Concert, co-sponsored by American Tango Institute and Old  
> Town School of Folk Music, lived up to all expectations, showcasing  
> the group?s eclectic mix of musical genres. The audience was just as  
> eclectic, but moved as one during the crowd favorite, ?Pa Bailar?.  
> After the concert, tangueros stayed until 2:00 am to keep the energy  
> going at the milonga DJ?d by Netza and Somer.
>

http://www.americantangoinstitute.com


-joe

From melvillefox at aol.com  Thu Apr  9 20:19:39 2009
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:19:39 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] genre bendre
In-Reply-To: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>
References: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CB87892C351883-848-19A9@webmail-mh05.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 5:49 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] genre bendre

> As long as we are redefining categories for the dancing people do, I
have a little taxonomic survey.

> Here is a video of Pablo Inza and Mariela Sametband dancing to "Via
Con Me" by Paolo Conte.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvMPXyR0qg0

> How would you classify the following things?

> The music? (e.g., "swing")

Not the best music to dance swing to. Sounds a little like 'quickstep' 
until it breaks down near the end.

> The dancing they are doing to this music? (e.g., "swing")

I don't know what the hell they are doing. It sure itsn't tango, 
although I've seen this kind of aimless dancing at milongas so I'm sure 
some people would consider it tango. After all these people are 
advertised as tango instructors, so it must be tango to some people.

> The dancers? (e.g., "swing dancers")

> If possible, justify your label.

Are you trolling? Justify your selection of this video. What's your 
point?

Mel


From rj.mcrae at shaw.ca  Thu Apr  9 22:36:35 2009
From: rj.mcrae at shaw.ca (Rod McRae)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:36:35 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Genre Bender
Message-ID: <D769B586063348E0B41BE84AC97778A8@rods>

I simply had to stop lurking after viewing these last few posts. To you so called traditionalists, I say - after the first couple danced a Tango in Argentina, everyone who followed and added or changed the way a step was done should technically be called "Nuevo", since they had altered the accepted dance step done to that point. The same with the musicians. To me all dances should be defined by the techniques employed and if you think that Argentine Tango is a totally unique way of dancing, think again. You will see theft from many different dance styles encorporated into Tango. If you want to pigeon hole Argentine Tango, and limit the way it should be performed, then call it a folk dance and by doing that you will be able to say if it isn't danced in a very particular way it is not "Tango". Every dance genre changes, dance is as much an interpretation as it is a style. Personally I prefer to define a dance by the basic technique employed. As for how to dance Tango at a milonga, the rules have been there long before I took my first dance step in 1951. They were common sense rules of traffic control, they were not invented by Argentine Tango dancers per se. I have often felt that A.T. was a result of people wanting to dance to music more commonly known as Foxtrot or Waltz, or Two Step or whatever, but didn't actually know the steps, so improvised, hence inventing Argentine Tango. No one can really prove the origin of the dance or the music definitively, it just evolved. I also believe if it is a worthwhile dance style it will continue to evolve in style, while hopefully allowing the heart of the dance, which is the feelings it evokes when the emotions of the music and the motions of the bodies combine well.

 

From hippybogus at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 10:03:42 2009
From: hippybogus at gmail.com (Hippy Bogus)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:03:42 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Review of Ensemble Hyperion at Brussels Tango Festival
In-Reply-To: <49DBC2BE.7000101@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <49DBC2BE.7000101@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <c8bb60f10904090703o5d0c58a0v5725c0bd745c5126@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Shahrukh,

I second your opinion. I attended the first four days of the festival, and I
thought the musicians on Friday and Saturday night were excellent, and in
particular Hyperion and Alfredo Marcucci.

Hyperion also performed a free concert at the Grand Place (or Central
Square) of Brussels the next evening, but I unfortunately missed it.

What did you think about the festival organization and the level of
performances? It was my first proper tango festival (having danced for 2
years mostly in Western Europe).

Abrazos
Hippy


On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Shahrukh Merchant <
shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com> wrote:

> By a quirk of fate (and OK, some personal schedule manipulation on my
> part :-)), I happened to be at the Brussels Tango Festival, which just
> ended yesterday.
>
> I may (or not ... since it would take a while to write ...) make the
> time to post some observations on the festival, but until then, I feel I
> really need to mention the "featured orchestra" of the festival,
> ENSEMBLE HYPERION -- see their website at www.ensemblehyperion.com
> (mostly in Italian). (They are not to be confused with the similarly
> named "Hyperion Ensemble," which is a chamber music ensemble out of
> Salzburg.)
>
> Undoubtedly, they are well-known to European festival goers, but I had
> never heard them (nor, I admit, of them). They are based out of Italy
> and are simply one of the best Tango orchestras I have ever danced to
> (and sacrilege though it may be to say, better than most out of Buenos
> Aires, at least the ones that play at Milongas there)! (Those who know
> me know that I do not make superlative recommendations like this
> lightly, if at all.)
>
> Their actually play SEVERAL golden-era orchestras convincingly
> (especially Pugliese, but Di Sarli and Donato as well, to name just a
> few), and are excellent musicians.
>
> The ensemble comprised one bandoneon (Alfredo Marcucci, who is really
> excellent and a passionate player), two violins, piano, guitar,
> transverse flute and bass. Franco Luciani joined in on some pieces with
> harmonica (gives Hugo Diaz a run for his money ...). They did NOT have a
> vocalist (which admittedly would be a very tricky addition--perhaps they
> are smart in not including one), but I did not really miss that since
> the DJ'ed music had an abundance of the classic vocals.
>
> I would suggest that North American and Asian Tango organizers consider
> inviting them, or coordinate amongst each other (okay, so I'm an
> idealist :-)) so they can justify a North American or Asian regional tour.
>
> Also, while I have not heard any of their recordings on CD, Tango DJs
> may wish to review their recordings to add to the very thinly populated
> genre of "convincing modern recordings of classic-era arrangements."
>
> Shahrukh
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com  Fri Apr 10 10:25:43 2009
From: JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com (JOANNEPROCHASKA@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:25:43 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Bajafondo Review
Message-ID: <c77.460d8913.3710b0e7@aol.com>

Note to all AT organizers and dancers:
When you hear of any sort of AT related concert or artist coming to your 
town, please contact the artist or venue to see if there will be a milonga 
connected with the event. If not, then organize one, and get ahold of the 
artists and invite them.  Reason: sometimes colleges/universities, Art Museums or 
other groups who have nothing to do with AT, do bring artists in.  And 
these groups do not have any connection with the local AT promoters.  If nothing 
is coordinated, then the local AT community misses a great opportunity for 
a great after concert milonga and  mixing with the stars.



**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
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hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62)

From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Apr 10 11:36:28 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:36:28 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
Message-ID: <20090410.083628.17083.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

Ron of Central Illinois writes --------> Nuevo, although having 
historical roots in tango and often danced to tango music (often not) 
is a different dance from tango. Typically the feet are not maintained 
on the floor and some movements do not follow the line of dance and 
many challenge the personal space of others on the dance floor.

Uh, no.  Failing to follow the line of dance except in emergencies and 
imposing on other peoples space isn't nuevo anything.  It's being a 
selfish, idiotic ass-hole.

As for nuevo tango being about not keeping your feet on the floor, 
traditional tango has had elevados of many kinds since at least the 
1920s when El Cachafaz according to some sources invented the boleo.  
Toe taps (golpes and golpecitos) have also been around a long time.  
Kicks of various kinds, such as amagues, also have a long history.  
Caricias (usually the woman caressing the man's leg or foot) are at 
least 25 years old.  In show tango the caricia is very exaggerated, but 
tiny ones are easily done in social dance.

Rod McRae writes --------> after the first couple danced a Tango in 
Argentina, everyone who followed and added or changed the way a step 
was done should technically be called "Nuevo"

Exactly right, but there's no technically about it.  Nuevo simply means 
new.  As I said in an earlier post there's always some new "nuevo."

What some label "nuevo" arose from what Gustavo Naveira and Fabian 
Salas called their Tango Study Group in the 1990s. They were concerned 
that some of the techniques of milongueros was dying with them.  So 
they came up with a way of describing these peoples figures in the most 
basic way possible, hoping to write the milonguero's techniques down 
and so preserve them.

Here's a brief summary.  Walking steps use only one foot at a time, and 
there are limited ways to take a step.  With your right foot you can 
step forward or back, to the side, or to the side crossing the free 
left foot either in front or back of your right foot.  That's five 
steps, plus five more for the opposite foot.  This is true for someone 
walking alone.

Salas and Naveira also describe relation between two people dancing 
together.  I've always thought the words they used for this were 
unclear, and I'm not sure that the relations they focus on are 
important.  I won't even bother trying to describe them.

Salas and Naveira (who have never labeled their dancing as nuevo) 
aren't the only tango dancers to try to break tango figures down into 
the most basic parts.  In fact, I'd bet that a lot of the people in 
this forum have done so.  I certainly have.

Once you analyze figures you begin to see that you can make new figures 
out of the parts.  One way is to vary old figures.  Ochos, for 
instance, are made of two steps which includes 180-degree pivots.  Why 
not try pivots of less than that?  These are called under-turned ochos 
or zig-zags.  Or three-quarter-turn (270-degree) pivots or full-turn 
(360-degree) pivots.  These are sometimes called over-turned ochos.

And you can make new figures by combining parts from two different 
figures.  Such as half of a forward ocho with half of a backward ocho.
 
Tango seems always to have been more concerned with improvisation than 
with robotic duplication of "frozen in stone" figures invented by 
someone else long ago.  Thus we will always have nuevo movements.

Unless, that is, we give in to the self-appointed tango police trying 
to make the rest of us conform to THEIR idea of tango.


Larry de Los Angeles ( novelette "Lady Death" add to 
http://ShapechangerTales.com )


____________________________________________________________
Become a medical transcriptionist at home, at your own pace.
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From tango.society at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 13:34:29 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:34:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] The Fallacy of the Rare being Commonplace
Message-ID: <cff24c340904101034x396ad73dj9f4c69254abd116e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:36 AM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
> Ron of Central Illinois writes --------> Nuevo, although having
> historical roots in tango and often danced to tango music (often not)
> is a different dance from tango. Typically the feet are not maintained
> on the floor and some movements do not follow the line of dance and
> many challenge the personal space of others on the dance floor.
>
> Uh, no. ?Failing to follow the line of dance except in emergencies and
> imposing on other peoples space isn't nuevo anything. ?It's being a
> selfish, idiotic ass-hole.
>
> As for nuevo tango being about not keeping your feet on the floor,
> traditional tango has had elevados of many kinds since at least the
> 1920s when El Cachafaz according to some sources invented the boleo.
> Toe taps (golpes and golpecitos) have also been around a long time.
> Kicks of various kinds, such as amagues, also have a long history.
> Caricias (usually the woman caressing the man's leg or foot) are at
> least 25 years old. ?In show tango the caricia is very exaggerated, but
> tiny ones are easily done in social dance.
>

Porten~os have long known the difference between tango for social
dancing and tango for exhibition. The social customs of the milongas
are such that extending your movements into the space of other dancers
on the social dance floor is rude and, in excess, could lead to a
warning or in extreme cases, expulsion from a milonga.

Nuevo, by its very nature of exploring movement possibilities,
including extension of and even breaking of the embrace, reorientation
of body position such that even the rear of one dancer can face the
front of the partner (relish that image), the exploration of the space
in between the legs and around the body of the partner are not only
invasive of the space of other dancers on the floor, but they are
disruptive to fluid forward movement of the line-of-dance. As to some
remaining elements such as mini-volcadas and mini-colgadas that can be
executed within restricted space, the amusement park "whee!!"
component that disrupts shared balance is counter-conducive to a
stable and relaxed shared connection that is prized by social tango
dancers in Buenos Aires. I have not seen these elements used for
dancers in the milongas of Buenos Aires, but that and historical
accounts of questionable accuracy do not preclude their existence. On
the same grounds, one cannot dismiss reported sightings of the Loch
Ness Monster.

Keeping feet on the floor and within the space of you and your partner
is characteristic of the Tango de Salon danced in the milongas of
Buenos Aires. One can search for and occasionally find amagues and
rarely foot or leg touches, although this is neither characteristic of
most dancers nor of the repertoire of movements of dancers who use
them. To use adornments to excess characterizes one as dancing for the
audience rather than dancing for your partner and is frowned upon.
Excessive movement (the stuff people clap at during YouTube videos of
demos) is disruptive to partner connection.

There is a danger is reporting a sighting of something at a Buenos
Aires milonga (assuming it was even seen there as opposed to reports
of historical events) and then using that as a justification of social
dancing. I remember on one trip to Paris I saw a young couple in a
park with green-dyed hair. I could have reported that to someone back
in the US as 'I saw people (plural) in Paris with green hair", which
could have been reported by the listener to the next person as "People
in Paris have green hair", which could then be adopted by the "Green
Hair Group" as a justification for dyeing their hair green, i.e.,
"This is what people do in Paris".

A major problem with what is advertised as 'tango' outside Argentina
is that it is a Green Hair Phenomenon. Nuevo is danced in a handful of
practicas, with an over-representation of tourists relative to
porten~os compared to the 100+ milongas in Buenos Aires. So the
representation of nuevo as social Argentine tango, either implicitly
or explicitly, is a highly biased representation of the social tango
danced in the milonas of Buenos Aires and this is false, or at the
very least biased advertising. This portrayal of the rare as
commonplace is deceptive, yet it has captured the attention of dancers
outside Argentina to the degree that dancing at milongas outside
Argentina today bears a much greater resemblance to Villa Malcolm and
Practica X, in existence for a decade or less, than the Tango de Salon
danced in over 100 milongas per week that has maintained basic
characteristics of feet on the floor and adherence to the line of
dnace that have existed for over 6 decades.

Ron


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 10 15:35:56 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:35:56 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  The Truth About Tango Nuevo
Message-ID: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>


larrynla wrote:

A lot of stuff.

Bravo and thank you.  

[rant] If we are not messing with other dancers or the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we express our feelings as we wish through our dance?  Is Tango an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified and over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as the worst excesses that one might find in the ballroom world?  Does it diminish you to let me dance tango as I wish?  I think that it is the self appointed "purists" who fail to dance tango, and should rename their dance to "Codified Tango."  Larry and Rod both made the point that the by the time the second tango dancer hit the floor, tango had become "Nuevo" and it has remained so ever since.
 
If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango', you are welcome to try.  In the meantime, the word, and the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]

David

_________________________________________________________________
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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 10 15:51:04 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


This rant is not new.  This justification is not new. 
 Here is my question:  Who decides if you are "messing
with the other dancers or the line of dance"? It isn't
just physical contact that is bothersome.  The whole
rhythm of the pista can be thrown off by very slow
volcadas or high boleos.  I can always tell when there
is a thoughtless dancer behind me because my partner's
musicality is thrown off trying to protect me from
abrupt stops or backsteps or leader boleos.  And yet
TL is completely oblivious to what is going on behind
him.


--- David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> larrynla wrote:
> 
> A lot of stuff.
> 
> Bravo and thank you.  
> 
> [rant] If we are not messing with other dancers or
> the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we express
> our feelings as we wish through our dance?  Is Tango
> an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified and
> over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as the
> worst excesses that one might find in the ballroom
> world?  Does it diminish you to let me dance tango
> as I wish?  I think that it is the self appointed
> "purists" who fail to dance tango, and should rename
> their dance to "Codified Tango."  Larry and Rod both
> made the point that the by the time the second tango
> dancer hit the floor, tango had become "Nuevo" and
> it has remained so ever since.
>  
> If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango', you
> are welcome to try.  In the meantime, the word, and
> the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]
> 
> David
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows
> with you. 
>
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> Tango-L at mit.edu
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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 10 16:31:19 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:31:19 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>
	<981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU119-W26351B364D8AA37F56E68391800@phx.gbl>




NANCY wrote:
>  Here is my question:  Who decides if you are "messing
> with the other dancers or the line of dance"?

Indeed.  That is THE question.  If I am dancing simple close embrace but insist on "pushing" the couple ahead of me, I am messing with the line of dance.  If I am dancing simple close embrace but am dawdling so as to create a large gap ahead of me and a pile up behind be, I am messing with the line of dance.  If I am keeping my distance, neither pushing nor dawdling, and I am dancing entirely on my floor tile at any given instant, why should you care whether I am doing a series of rock steps waiting for traffic to clear, or a colgada waiting for traffic to clear?  If traffic is moving at a good clip, why should you care whether I am walking in a conventional close embrace or, using Ron's example, Butt to Front?

In my opinion, rude behavior on the dance floor is rude behavior, and considerate behavior is considerate behavior.

I realize that this is not a new rant.  The question is:  Why the
prejudiced attitudes that continue to pop up and warrant the rant, or perhaps we just have have trolls continuing to plague the list?

In the world of skiing (my other passion), many snow boarders are obnoxious teenagers.  They would be obnoxious on skis also.  There are also many snow boarders who are considerate and are a pleasure to share the slopes with.  In the past, a large number of ski areas took the path of prejudice and simply banned all snow boarders.  Now, nearly all are more enlightened and ban bad behavior, whether on skis or snow boards, and permit safe and courteous users of the slopes, whether on skis or snow boards.

Can't the tango world be as enlightened and kind as the ski world?

David

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From tango.society at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 00:42:22 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 23:42:22 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Bailonga: The Alternative to the Milonga
Message-ID: <cff24c340904102142n68e1cbcbt22e15854e827986e@mail.gmail.com>

In Buenos Aires, the music played for dancing tango is almost
exclusively classic tango music from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. The rare
exceptions are more modern recordings of traditional tangos played in
the style of the golden age.

Outside Argentina it is rare to find a 'milonga' that follows this
format. Most tango DJs play at least some neo-tango (tango fusion) or
non-tango music to which dancers do steps associated with tango. If
neo-tango/non-tango music makes up a significant portion of the music
program, these events are sometimes advertised as 'alternative
milongas'. This labeling assists dancers in knowing what to expect
with regards to the music played. However, this terminology is not
used consistently.

Given the tango traditions of Buenos Aires, it is questionable whether
it is justifiable to call a dance event a 'milonga' when a significant
proportion of music played is neo-tango/non-tango music. In Argentine
Tango culture, a milonga has a specific meaning, with regard to the
music, and with regard to other customs. For the purpose of cultural
validity, one should use tango-related terms accurately. In Buenos
Aires, a dance event advertised in El Tangauta or BA Tango that has a
significant portion of non-tango music is called a 'baile' instead of
a .milonga'. Of course, in Buenos Aires, what is danced to non-tango
music is usually swing or cumbia or chacarera, as appropriate for the
rhythm of the music.

I have been hoping that alternative-to-tango music aficiandos would
come up with a term for their dance events that did not use the word
'milonga'. This evening I accidentally came across a web page using
the term 'bailonga' for a dance event where the preponderance of music
played for doing tango steps is neo-tango/non-tango. I googled the
term and came up with another webpage using the term 'bailonga' for a
music program of the same type:

http://www.tangocenter.org/group/bailonga

http://www.demetriusgonzalez.com/tango/bailonga.html

For clarity in communication regarding the music played at a dance
event, I highly recommend universal adoption of the term 'bailonga'
for those where the music program contains a significant proportion of
neo-tango/non-tango music intended for doing tango steps.

Those who enjoy milongas dancing to the music of classic tango will thank you.

Ron

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 11 05:16:02 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:16:02 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L]  Rude floorcraft - was: The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W26351B364D8AA37F56E68391800@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>
	<981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
	<BLU119-W26351B364D8AA37F56E68391800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W10740C3AF601EB10F4FD49A9810@phx.gbl>


Every community has occasional rude behavior by some dancers some of the time. My question is, what do you do about it? I'm not particularly interested in speculation and brain-storming, I can do that fine myself. What I'd like to hear are actual experiences of communities or event hosts who have confronted or otherwise addressed the problem, and what kind or results you got.

          J





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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 11 06:25:55 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W319D1B0954BAA7A52FA07991800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <411713.4494.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


I don't actually agree with that. I think Argentine Tango belongs to the Argentines. 
Anyone is free to dance it?but you should respect the fact that it's not yours.

What right do you have to change it and continue to call it Argentine Tango?

Jack



> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> 
> If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango', you are welcome to try.? In the 
> meantime, the word, and the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]
> 



      



From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 00:11:22 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:11:22 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <981726.97647.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5777D963-3D6D-4691-AB7B-A786C667BB57@gmail.com>

Really? So a slow milonguero doesn't do this? Or a milonguero that  
doesnt follow 'the rules'?  Surely it comes back to the dancers  
themselves!

Get off the 'nuevo dancers are crap' thought process and maybe as  
David says, focus on 'crap dancers suck' rant... But who's to say who  
is crap?

O dear, here come the 'tango nazi police' again cause I paused when I  
felt pause, but you didn't... Sheesh, I must suck as a dancer then  
hey....

Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...

On 11/04/2009, at 5:51 AM, NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> This rant is not new.  This justification is not new.
> Here is my question:  Who decides if you are "messing
> with the other dancers or the line of dance"? It isn't
> just physical contact that is bothersome.  The whole
> rhythm of the pista can be thrown off by very slow
> volcadas or high boleos.  I can always tell when there
> is a thoughtless dancer behind me because my partner's
> musicality is thrown off trying to protect me from
> abrupt stops or backsteps or leader boleos.  And yet
> TL is completely oblivious to what is going on behind
> him.
>
>
> --- David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> larrynla wrote:
>>
>> A lot of stuff.
>>
>> Bravo and thank you.
>>
>> [rant] If we are not messing with other dancers or
>> the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we express
>> our feelings as we wish through our dance?  Is Tango
>> an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified and
>> over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as the
>> worst excesses that one might find in the ballroom
>> world?  Does it diminish you to let me dance tango
>> as I wish?  I think that it is the self appointed
>> "purists" who fail to dance tango, and should rename
>> their dance to "Codified Tango."  Larry and Rod both
>> made the point that the by the time the second tango
>> dancer hit the floor, tango had become "Nuevo" and
>> it has remained so ever since.
>>
>> If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango', you
>> are welcome to try.  In the meantime, the word, and
>> the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]
>>
>> David
>>
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows
>> with you.
>>
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 11 09:16:09 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <5777D963-3D6D-4691-AB7B-A786C667BB57@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18085.49335.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Oh, take a chill pill.  I did not use the words nuevo,
milonguero or crap in my post.  But your defensiveness
is telling.  Maybe my question should have been, if a
dancer is 'messing with' the other dancers, then how
do we get him to stop? And by the way - a milonguero,
by definition, would not do those annoying things.  A
dancer or a 'bailarin' as the Argentines say, might.


--- Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Really? So a slow milonguero doesn't do this? Or a
> milonguero that  
> doesnt follow 'the rules'?  Surely it comes back to
> the dancers  
> themselves!
> 
> Get off the 'nuevo dancers are crap' thought process
> and maybe as  
> David says, focus on 'crap dancers suck' rant... But
> who's to say who  
> is crap?
> 
> O dear, here come the 'tango nazi police' again
> cause I paused when I  
> felt pause, but you didn't... Sheesh, I must suck as
> a dancer then  
> hey....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...
> 
> On 11/04/2009, at 5:51 AM, NANCY
> <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > This rant is not new.  This justification is not
> new.
> > Here is my question:  Who decides if you are
> "messing
> > with the other dancers or the line of dance"? It
> isn't
> > just physical contact that is bothersome.  The
> whole
> > rhythm of the pista can be thrown off by very slow
> > volcadas or high boleos.  I can always tell when
> there
> > is a thoughtless dancer behind me because my
> partner's
> > musicality is thrown off trying to protect me from
> > abrupt stops or backsteps or leader boleos.  And
> yet
> > TL is completely oblivious to what is going on
> behind
> > him.
> >
> >
> > --- David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> larrynla wrote:
> >>
> >> A lot of stuff.
> >>
> >> Bravo and thank you.
> >>
> >> [rant] If we are not messing with other dancers
> or
> >> the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we
> express
> >> our feelings as we wish through our dance?  Is
> Tango
> >> an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified
> and
> >> over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as
> the
> >> worst excesses that one might find in the
> ballroom
> >> world?  Does it diminish you to let me dance
> tango
> >> as I wish?  I think that it is the self appointed
> >> "purists" who fail to dance tango, and should
> rename
> >> their dance to "Codified Tango."  Larry and Rod
> both
> >> made the point that the by the time the second
> tango
> >> dancer hit the floor, tango had become "Nuevo"
> and
> >> it has remained so ever since.
> >>
> >> If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango',
> you
> >> are welcome to try.  In the meantime, the word,
> and
> >> the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> >> Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that
> grows
> >> with you.
> >>
> >
>
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Tango-L mailing list
> >> Tango-L at mit.edu
> >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tango-L mailing list
> > Tango-L at mit.edu
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 



      

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 18:52:58 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:52:58 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
In-Reply-To: <18085.49335.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <18085.49335.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5ED66E0F-D44B-449F-A349-7DD2884AB192@gmail.com>

actually, the undeertone of your post is enough and don't bullshit  
yourself.  I have seen milongueros do much worse. besides, if you are  
dancing with your eyes closed - doubt you have seen half of what I  
have...

Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...

On 11/04/2009, at 11:16 PM, NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Oh, take a chill pill.  I did not use the words nuevo,
> milonguero or crap in my post.  But your defensiveness
> is telling.  Maybe my question should have been, if a
> dancer is 'messing with' the other dancers, then how
> do we get him to stop? And by the way - a milonguero,
> by definition, would not do those annoying things.  A
> dancer or a 'bailarin' as the Argentines say, might.
>
>
> --- Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Really? So a slow milonguero doesn't do this? Or a
>> milonguero that
>> doesnt follow 'the rules'?  Surely it comes back to
>> the dancers
>> themselves!
>>
>> Get off the 'nuevo dancers are crap' thought process
>> and maybe as
>> David says, focus on 'crap dancers suck' rant... But
>> who's to say who
>> is crap?
>>
>> O dear, here come the 'tango nazi police' again
>> cause I paused when I
>> felt pause, but you didn't... Sheesh, I must suck as
>> a dancer then
>> hey....
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...
>>
>> On 11/04/2009, at 5:51 AM, NANCY
>> <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> This rant is not new.  This justification is not
>> new.
>>> Here is my question:  Who decides if you are
>> "messing
>>> with the other dancers or the line of dance"? It
>> isn't
>>> just physical contact that is bothersome.  The
>> whole
>>> rhythm of the pista can be thrown off by very slow
>>> volcadas or high boleos.  I can always tell when
>> there
>>> is a thoughtless dancer behind me because my
>> partner's
>>> musicality is thrown off trying to protect me from
>>> abrupt stops or backsteps or leader boleos.  And
>> yet
>>> TL is completely oblivious to what is going on
>> behind
>>> him.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> larrynla wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A lot of stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Bravo and thank you.
>>>>
>>>> [rant] If we are not messing with other dancers
>> or
>>>> the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we
>> express
>>>> our feelings as we wish through our dance?  Is
>> Tango
>>>> an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified
>> and
>>>> over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as
>> the
>>>> worst excesses that one might find in the
>> ballroom
>>>> world?  Does it diminish you to let me dance
>> tango
>>>> as I wish?  I think that it is the self appointed
>>>> "purists" who fail to dance tango, and should
>> rename
>>>> their dance to "Codified Tango."  Larry and Rod
>> both
>>>> made the point that the by the time the second
>> tango
>>>> dancer hit the floor, tango had become "Nuevo"
>> and
>>>> it has remained so ever since.
>>>>
>>>> If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango',
>> you
>>>> are welcome to try.  In the meantime, the word,
>> and
>>>> the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant]
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that
>> grows
>>>> with you.
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tango-L mailing list
>>>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tango-L mailing list
>>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
>
>
>
>


From ako31 at nyc.rr.com  Sat Apr 11 19:36:09 2009
From: ako31 at nyc.rr.com (Andrea Katz)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:36:09 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Rude floorcraft
In-Reply-To: <mailman.869.1239468157.16869.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.869.1239468157.16869.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <50E02889-5126-4527-AF56-2DBB5F74CBF7@nyc.rr.com>


hi j -

my theory about rude floor craft (which also can include a follower  
doing unmindful embellishments) is similar to the persons who own  
barking dogs.

one has usually lost before one has started when confronting someone  
about a dog barking - the dog wouldnt be barking in the first place if  
the owner was mindful.

on the dance floor one cant file a civil complaint, but being a  
gracious rather than a confrontative co- inhabitor of floor space  
helps. even if i am stepped on i say 'so sorry'.

today i ended up between two testosterone filled leaders. my leader  
was cut off by the other who danced back against the line of dance  
into us, which caused me to step onto the other follower. my leader  
yelled out , 'say sorry'...which led to an 'it was YOUR faults and YOU  
SHOULD HAVES' capturing the attention of most on the floor.... i  
suggested they both apologize because none of it was INTENTIONAL -  
which didnt work because one of them is a continual  hazard on the  
floor and many have pent up anger at him.

but still, i think being generous and gracious goes a long way - in  
aikdo (which i gave up for tango because i got hurt too much, hah!) we  
used to say - give in to get your own way. since an enjoyable dance  
for all is what we all want, i say "so sorry" goes a long way as well  
as defensive driving on the part of leaders who know who is a pain in  
the neck on the dance floor and need to be avoided.

i also - while i am at it - must mention that i have gotten nailed  
numerous times by a spike heel and have found continuing dancing is  
the best way to deal with the pain rather than shreiking and blaming  
like i have seen quite a few followers do...

andrea






From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat Apr 11 22:57:08 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:57:08 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to BA, the tango mecca
Message-ID: <13176a380904111957u5c7cfdf7u1aaac91585c9ab00@mail.gmail.com>

I?m in BA for the FIRST time. These are my OBSERVATIONS, not universal
truths. Everybody has their own experiences. I?m just sharing mine for
those who have never been here.

Milongas

Whereas the milongas I?ve attended in the US are virtually pitch black
(except for the recent Atlanta Tango Festival which wants attendees to
practice cabeceo), there is a lot of lighting at the milongas in BA
(based on the ones I?ve attended. It?s impossible for me to attend all
of them. My rented house is in San Cristobal so I?m going to the
milongas near the house (Lo de Celia, El Arranque, and Leonesa (which
hosts multiple milongas under different names, such as Nino Bien.)

Cabeceo
It is practiced religiously here. You need to understand it before you
come. For me, I  maintain the gaze of Bela Lugosi who portrayed
Dracula and focus on the woman I want to dance. If our eyes meet
because she is looking for somebody to dance, I have a split second to
make a slight nod of my head towards the floor and smile. She will
respond with a nod (yes) or shake of the head (no). If yes, I meet her
at the closest corner where there are no tables. I go onto the floor
first to find a spot and she comes onto the floor.

The Embrace
It?s only close embrace. There?s no open position. The man raises his
left arm with his palm toward himself. The woman puts her right hand
in the palm and all the fingers close. The woman puts her left arm
around the man?s back. The man lifts his right arm until it comes into
contact with her left arm. He then reaches across her back until his
fingers reach her arm pit. I haven?t seen any deviations from this
embrace by Argentines.

The dance
It?s very simple because the embrace is EVERYTHING, not the figures.
It?s walking, ocho cortado, molinetes and very low boleos, if any.
When you pack your luggage, leave your valcadas, colgaldas, and
displacements are home. You won?t need them and you may throw the
Argentines off.


Between the dances
Surprisingly, the Argentines talk for about the first 30 seconds of
following dances in the tanda. I was told that when young people were
chaperoned, the only time they could talk without their parents
knowing what was said was at the beginning of each musical selection.
No one looks young enough to need a chaperone.

At El Arranque, I danced with a Japanese woman to a DiSarli tanda.
When my favorite DiSarli tango, El Jacquel, was played, we danced. I
didn?t care that the Argentines were still talking. (It was the last
half hour of the milonga and the floor was empty.) I wasn?t going to
let a beautiful tango go to waste.

The language
Learn some Spanish. Somebody might speak to you in spanish between the
tangos and you?ll be ignorant of what they?re saying. Even though I
went to a community college to brush up, I know enough to tell the
woman I?m an American and spanish isn?t my primary language so I can?t
understand everything she said. And then there?s the issue of getting
around the town.

Ochos
Americans pivot when they ocho so the eight is more horizontal. Not
all Argentine woman pivot. They step backward, then reach back with
the other foot and cross behing the standing leg. So their ochos are
more vertical than horizontal. It?s still an ocho but it?s different.

Adjustments
I had to adjust my dance to fit the milonguero style. I prefer to
dance with my palm up, not my hand arm because I want my arm to be
relaxed. It doesn?t make any difference what I want. What the woman
wants is more important and I have to accomodate her.

Again, these are my observations, not universal truths. The purpose of
Tango L is to share information so I?m just sharing.

I have a guide who?s helping me get around.

That?s all I can think of for now. If I think of anything else, I?ll post.

Reporting from Buenos Aires
Michael Ditkoff
-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 12 22:31:51 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:31:51 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #2
Message-ID: <13176a380904121931y5ea8374cpc75ba6c2a06262ff@mail.gmail.com>

This is a continuation of my observations, not universal truths.

What to wear at the milongas?

I?ve been told and read that men wear suits. In fact, very FEW wear
suits or sport jackets. I wore a suit to my first milonga and
overheated. It was like setting an oven to bake and 350 degrees. I
don?t wear a suit nor sport jacket, but a vest. The suit didn?t get me
a lot of tandas so wearing less than a suit can?t hurt.

New term
Suggestion of new term for ?`authentic Argentine Tango?? (I?m using a
keyboard that isn?t conventionally used in the states and it?s
difficult to find special keys.) Instead of ??authentic?`, I suggest
`?original.? The milonguero style (named by Susana Miller) is what I
call the original style. It?s NOT the style I dance in the States but
I consider what I dance to be authentic.

Line of dance

It?s difficult. Dancers on the perimeter tend to follow the perimeter.
I don?t know what those on the inside lane are following. It?s not a
ronda. Tonight, I found two couples inside the center passing each
other IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS. That?s a sign there isn?t a ronda in the
middle. What could cause this? Too much talking and not enough
dancing. In the states, couples tend to start immediately when the
music starts so that the traffic is moving. Here in BA, some people
have nowhere to go so they move around the obstruction. At times, the
inside looks like a bathtub that?s filled with water. Somebody pulls a
plug causing the tub to drain creating a whirlpool at the drain.
Instead of staying at the outside of the inside lane, I see couples
stay closer and closer to the center. Some couples jump to the outside
lane.  If they would spread out, there would be more room.

Teaching at milongas
During the talking period while a waltz started, an Argentine woman
decided to teach me the rhythm of waltz because she couldn?t do a
molinete. Other women at the Atlanta Tango Festival, New York
milongas, and other BA milongas didn?t seem to have problems
but she wanted to correct me. I knew walking off the floor would
reflect worse on me because I?m not a regular so I just took it though
I did tell her the rhythm is uno-dos-tres.

Time differential
BA is ONE hour ahead of Eastern Daylight Time. US (except for Arizona)
turned clocks forward. For some reason, BA turned its clocks back one
hour. BA use to be 3 hours ahead of US.

I?ll post if I left something out.

Have to go to sleep so I can make the 11AM walking tour that begins at
the Congress building.

Reporting from Buenos Aires

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com  Mon Apr 13 10:01:11 2009
From: JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com (JOANNEPROCHASKA@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:01:11 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to BA, the tango mecca
Message-ID: <c09.5afa90e2.37149fa7@aol.com>

GREAT to read Michael's observations of the milonga, cabeceo, embrace etc.  
 For those of you who have yet to visit BA, please take note, as these 
observations will aid anyone in preparing for a visit by reducing the learning 
curve.  After all, no need to re-invent the wheel.
Michael, thanks for taking the time to write, and don't forget to try the 
veal napolitana for your next dinner.
Looking forward to your next post.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio


**************
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sc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62)

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 13 10:23:21 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #2
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904121931y5ea8374cpc75ba6c2a06262ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <662798.55378.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Hi Michael,

Thanks for your observations, and I look forward to hearing more from you.


--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:

> New term
> Suggestion of new term for ?`authentic Argentine Tango??
> (I?m using a keyboard that isn?t conventionally used in the states and
> it?s difficult to find special keys.) Instead of
> ??authentic?`, I suggest `?original.? The milonguero style (named by Susana Miller) is what I call the original style. It?s NOT the style I dance in the States but I consider what I dance to be authentic.

"original" wouldn't work either since no one really knows what the original looked like and predates what developed in the 1940's.  It could be closer to Canyengue than the tango we know today.  Probably the only term that people would agree with would be something related to "downtown" or "center city".  It's accepted that those in the center of the city dance close due partly to space issues.  Living very close to downtown of a 200+ year old port city, I can easily see that.


Trini de Pittsburgh





      


From tango.society at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 10:52:41 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:52:41 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Request for Information: Definition of 'Alternative
	Milonga'
Message-ID: <cff24c340904130752v4284d1fcl9a1df741ba2a4c0@mail.gmail.com>

I've received several good responses on my suggestion for the use of
the term 'bailonga' for a tango dance event that mixes neotango/tango
fusion and non-tango music with traditional tango. I heard from
someone is Buenos Aires who said that the terms 'baile' and 'bailonga'
are used more or less interchangeably for dance gatherings where a
significant proportion of music played is not tango, although
typically this is cumbia, jazz/rock & roll, and chacarera, to which
people do not dance tango. The ads I've seen in BA Tango and El
Tangauta generally list the percentage of tango music at these events
as 50%.

One responder to my previous post had used the term 'neolonga' for a
dance event consisting entirely of neotango and non-tango music
intended for dancing tango. I like this term because the name readily
describes the environment in a way that 'bailonga' does not, so one
knows what to expect for a 'neolonga'.

The term 'alternative milonga' has been used repeatedly to describe
tango dance events where neotango/non-tango music is played. I have
little experience with such events, because I do not dance tango to
neotango or non-tango music and I will not go to them. However, I have
been at festivals in Denver, San Diego, and St Louis where the term
'alternative milonga' has been used and I briefly visited them and
talked to the DJs at some of them. My understanding is that at these
specific events only neotango and non-tango music intended for dancing
tango were played (in one case only non-tango music), so no classic
tango. This sounds identical to the previous respondent's use of the
term 'neolonga'. However, I believe the term 'alternative milonga' has
also been used for events where there is a mix of classic tango and
neotango/non-tango music.

So, what I am interested in knowing is what the general practice is in
using the term 'alternative milonga'?

Ron

From Crrtango at aol.com  Mon Apr 13 11:34:50 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:34:50 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to Bs. As.
Message-ID: <c9a.247d892e.3714b59a@aol.com>

re Michael's experience in Buenos Aires, a couple of observations, and a 
reality check.

Over the years I have heard horror stories from people, both men and women, 
that went down and didn't dance even one dance with the locals, and 
sometimes none at all (!) for two weeks.   Although the men there will make 
exceptions for attractive women, of course, generally if the men don't know how to 
dance well (or are beginners) women won't respond to their cabeceo, even if 
they are wearing a suit.   Many people from the U.S. go down thinking they 
are good dancers only to have a rude reality check. 

Also remember that if they don't know you, they may wait to see if you know 
how to dance well.   I sat for two hours dressed up in Lo de Celia a few 
years back trying to get a dance when I finally realized that women weren't 
responding because no one knew me and had no idea whether I could dance or 
not.   Finally I asked someone sitting at the next table to dance, who didn't 
know how to dance very well it turned out, but it worked.   After that I got 
responses from my cabeceos.

Also keep in mind that nowadays there are different styles of milongas so 
first make sure you are going to one that fits your style of dancing, and 
possibly dress.   Dancing open-embrace, nuevo-style tango, (and wearing baggy 
cargo pants with T-shirts hanging out) won't get you many dances at 
Sunderland, but on the other hand, it will at other venues.

Cheers,
Charles


 


**************
Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new 
AOL Shopping. (http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001)

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 13 11:41:48 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #2
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904121931y5ea8374cpc75ba6c2a06262ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904121931y5ea8374cpc75ba6c2a06262ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <861345.54259.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Michael,

Thanks for the reports - very accurate from my experiences and 
very?useful for first-time visitors to BsAs.

But I don't agree with your term 'original style' because, as Trini has 
already pointed out, we don't really know what that is and it would 
result in a lot of disagreements. 

To me 'authentic Argentine Tango' is what predominates in the 
traditional milongas of modern-day Buenos Aires and you've already 
described that very well. You say you don't dance that style in the 
States so I'd be interested to know why you consider it to be 'authentic'.

I now use the term 'Buenos Aires Style' to describe what I consider 
to be 'authentic Argentine Tango. I don't really see how anyone could 
disagree with that but I'm sure many will find a way :-).

Jack



> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> 
> New term
> Suggestion of new term for ?`authentic Argentine Tango?? (I?m using a
> keyboard that isn?t conventionally used in the states and it?s
> difficult to find special keys.) Instead of ??authentic?`, I suggest
> `?original.? The milonguero style (named by Susana Miller) is what I
> call the original style. It?s NOT the style I dance in the States but
> I consider what I dance to be authentic.
> 



      



From macfroggy at aol.com  Mon Apr 13 11:43:31 2009
From: macfroggy at aol.com (macfroggy@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:43:31 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to Bs. As.
In-Reply-To: <c9a.247d892e.3714b59a@aol.com>
References: <c9a.247d892e.3714b59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CB8A65BAFE4DB0-1194-1CE6@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com>


 Well put, Charles.
It's also good to choose milongas where people are more or less your same age, especially if you are over 35.
Of course, a young beautiful girl who dances well, or even not that well, will dance anyplace she wants to!

Cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com


 




From politas at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 22:42:28 2009
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:42:28 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] genre bendre
In-Reply-To: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>
References: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3F814.5060508@gmail.com>

Joe Grohens wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvMPXyR0qg0
> 
> How would you classify the following things?
> 
> - The music? (e.g., "swing")

Yes, I'd say that was fast swing music.

> - The dancing they are doing to this music? (e.g., "swing")

No, they are definitely not dancing swing. I'd call that a fusion of 
tango and jazz dancing, leaning heavily on the tango side. Most of what 
they are doing is standard tango stuff, with a few jazzy bits thrown in.

> - The dancers?

They are tango performers, as simple as that. Performance dancing rarely 
fits precisely into a particular dance genre. Performers fuse elements 
from different styles to create a distinctive style of their own in 
order to be visually interesting.

-- 
Myk,
in Canberra

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Apr 13 21:55:53 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:55:53 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #2
In-Reply-To: <861345.54259.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <13176a380904121931y5ea8374cpc75ba6c2a06262ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<861345.54259.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380904131855v7880c639r1b7c1b3a76497c18@mail.gmail.com>

I accept Buenos Aires style. I{ve read so many postings about what is
authentic. Who wants to admit that after years of lessons and
practice, (s)he isn{t dancing authentic. I wanted to come up with a
different term.

Michael

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> Thanks for the reports - very accurate from my experiences and
> very?useful for first-time visitors to BsAs.
>
> But I don't agree with your term 'original style' because, as Trini has
> already pointed out, we don't really know what that is and it would
> result in a lot of disagreements.
>
> To me 'authentic Argentine Tango' is what predominates in the
> traditional milongas of modern-day Buenos Aires and you've already
> described that very well. You say you don't dance that style in the
> States so I'd be interested to know why you consider it to be 'authentic'.
>
> I now use the term 'Buenos Aires Style' to describe what I consider
> to be 'authentic Argentine Tango. I don't really see how anyone could
> disagree with that but I'm sure many will find a way :-).
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
>>
>> New term
>> Suggestion of new term for ?`authentic Argentine Tango?? (I?m using a
>> keyboard that isn?t conventionally used in the states and it?s
>> difficult to find special keys.) Instead of ??authentic?`, I suggest
>> `?original.? The milonguero style (named by Susana Miller) is what I
>> call the original style. It?s NOT the style I dance in the States but
>> I consider what I dance to be authentic.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 13 23:34:15 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] genre bendre
In-Reply-To: <49E3F814.5060508@gmail.com>
References: <26C59B6A-D77D-462E-872A-7F0245293066@gmail.com>
	<49E3F814.5060508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77109.97916.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


The first thing they are is professional dancers. My very first Tango 
lessons, in the mid-90s, were with Pablo Inza [with his then-wife, 
Gladys Fernandez] when they were already travelling the world as 
tango teachers. Back then Pablo was super-traditional and 
conservative with short slicked-back hair and suit. Almost 
unrecognizable from his later nuevo reincarnation.

I guess Pablo just likes to push the boundaries and constantly 
experiment with new stuff. But at least he has the training in 
traditional tango to back it up. IMHO, this is often lacking in 
some of the newer Nuevo dancers.

Jack



> From: Myk Dowling politas at gmail.com

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvMPXyR0qg0
> > 
> 
> > - The dancers?
> 
> They are tango performers, as simple as that. Performance dancing rarely 
> fits precisely into a particular dance genre. Performers fuse elements 
> from different styles to create a distinctive style of their own in 
> order to be visually interesting.
> 



      


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Apr 14 22:29:56 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:29:56 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?
Message-ID: <20090414.192956.1456.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>

Maybe those of you who have a lot of experience in the Buenos Aires
tango scene can tell us - where do "tango nuevo" dancers usually go
to dance?

This will let those who react like stereotypical little old ladies
to a mouse avoid those places.  And let those of us who are curious
about tango nuevo go see if all the horror stories about them
are true.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



____________________________________________________________
Be a professional.  Click here to earn a psychology degree.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsNDOe8ZYiT79M7yjl8EHHFEMP0IJHSscWjQI3hoSKY1yeP6SU0l6A/


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 14 22:56:49 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:56:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?
In-Reply-To: <20090414.192956.1456.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090414.192956.1456.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <175240.88606.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> Maybe those of you who have a lot of experience in the Buenos Aires
> tango scene can tell us - where do "tango nuevo" dancers usually go
> to dance?
> 

Practica X, Tango Cool, El Motivo and La Viruta.

Larry, enjoy yourself.?I hope you're fast on your feet to take the 
necessary evasive actions but, just in case, make sure your health 
insurance is up to date :-)

Jack


      



From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 01:25:20 2009
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:25:20 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?
In-Reply-To: <175240.88606.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20090414.192956.1456.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
	<175240.88606.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210904142225o1e293183n210bbbd631032204@mail.gmail.com>

 adding to that list :
practika 8 (ocho)
practica Rara

also there is a new milonga (opening night is 20th April) called Otros
Buenos Aires, where the organiser indents to play mostly non tango music,
with a bit of Piazzolla and electrotango mixed in for good measure. I will
be intesested in seeing what type of crowd it wil attract

Besos from Beautiful BsAs

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> > From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> >
> > Maybe those of you who have a lot of experience in the Buenos Aires
> > tango scene can tell us - where do "tango nuevo" dancers usually go
> > to dance?
> >
>
> Practica X, Tango Cool, El Motivo and La Viruta.
>
> Larry, enjoy yourself. I hope you're fast on your feet to take the
> necessary evasive actions but, just in case, make sure your health
> insurance is up to date :-)
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 15 09:20:07 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:20:07 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangocool announcement was Where in BsAs do the
	nuevos hang out?
In-Reply-To: <175240.88606.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20090414.192956.1456.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
	<175240.88606.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS1AD823C7073D419EE5A2FAE7D0@phx.gbl>

>From April '09:

- The group lessons will be on Wednesday and Friday from 09:00 till 11:00 
PM.

- Wednesday's Practice will be suspended = No practice at Wednesday.

- Friday's Practice continues running as usual, from 11:00 PM till 03:00 AM.

We hope to see you at Villa Malcolm if you visit BA!!!

Best regards, Gabriel Glagovsky
TANGOCOOL! organizer

http://tangocool.com/



Cheers,
Vince

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 PM
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?

>
>> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
>>
>> Maybe those of you who have a lot of experience in the Buenos Aires
>> tango scene can tell us - where do "tango nuevo" dancers usually go
>> to dance?
>>
>
> Practica X, Tango Cool, El Motivo and La Viruta.
>
> Larry, enjoy yourself. I hope you're fast on your feet to take the
> necessary evasive actions but, just in case, make sure your health
> insurance is up to date :-)
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 15 13:28:14 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
Message-ID: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


..This is what I?m seeing after 1 1/2 yrs of
Watching YouTube.... Note: The videos watched were mostly of
very proficient dancers doing a close embrace/
milonguero style of dancing in Tango and Vals.
Tango Nuevo and/or a performance dance does not follow these patterns, we are only talking about closed embrace social dancing.

1. 90% of 'walk to the cross' is done in cross footed position.
2. A 10% (or less) is done in parallel footing.
3. Cross footed is also used for the back crosses and back ochos.
4. That's about all you will see done crossed feet but some dancers
use the walk to the cross, back cross , ochos and giros for 90% of their dance.
5. After the (cross footed) walk to the cross is executed, usually there follows: an immediate giro or a few steps in parallel (or a milonga box) and then a giro right or left. This pattern is amazingly similar with most dancers. It seems like THE thing to do after the walk to the cross.
6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position. Witness
the Milonga (song) which is 99% danced parallel feet. I checked with
some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages.
7. The old generation of milongueros (Richard Vidort, etc) danced a lot in parallel position and improvised mainly in it. In looking at the
old guard, some prefer to dance almost entirely in crossed feet for the Tango and Vals while others choose mainly parallel footing for their dances. (Repetitive movements are important in social dancing with random partners.)
8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.
9. So, walking cross footed means either an immediate walk to the cross or back crosses first (back ochos, too) and then a walk to the cross. .
When a giro or any turn variation exits with the lead walking outside
right in crossed feet, the cross follows immediately.
10. Walking outside follow's left is usually only done for a couple of steps and then the lead crosses in front to go parallel or outside follow's right.
11. The first step in walking for follow or lead is; if forward begin with the left foot, if backward begin with the right foot. If the first step of a dance (or most sequences) is sideways (open), it's always to the leader's left side.
12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.
13. Any synchopation of the walk, with rock steps, etc. thrown in, is always done in parallel footing. (perhaps for the mirroring desired?)
14. Only 3 or 4 patterns; (walk to cross, back crosses, giros, etc.) need
be learned, and made automatic, to be able to improvise and lead an
enjoyable social dance for both partners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUxVZUtRfA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
The above three videos are good examples of the complete dance
done simply, enjoyably and elegantly.
15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening, during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good (if given the choice).

Well, this is what I've just written down off the top of my head in a few minutes. Any additions, corrections, agreements from others will be enthusiasticly received.
I believe that observations like this are a help in putting together one?s own dance, especially for being able to see the forest thru all the trees...thanks for reading this far. 


      


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed Apr 15 21:09:02 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:09:02 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380904151809v61b9c1b4m30d3ce5a21d28a10@mail.gmail.com>

Mario:
I don?t agree. Whenver the man steps outside the follower?s right, it
usually signals a walk to the cross. The Argentines do it because they
pivot on the left and want to go forward on the same foot. The only
way to do that is a quick weight change to the right. The woman
doesn?t know if the man is on parallel or cross feet. She just feels
him to the side and she wants to get back in front of him.

Michael
Washington, DC
Vacationing in Buenos Aires

Mario wrote:
>
> ..This is what I?m seeing after 1 1/2 yrs of
> Watching YouTube

> 8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
> The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
> the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.

> 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.
-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed Apr 15 21:47:38 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:47:38 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #3
Message-ID: <13176a380904151847s35b7e24bid2ba4834f2eeb9d0@mail.gmail.com>

More observations:

Cabeceo
When not dancing, look ALIVE!! You are always being scouted by
potential partners dancers. Yes, it?s aggravating not to dance and the
wait is excruciating, because you don?t know how long it will be.
Dances don?t run on a timetable. Some women look like they are in a
catatonic state, waiting for Count Dracula or Prince charming to break
the spell.

Unless you have 2 noses or 3 ears, Argentines think you?re an
Argentine, unless you change your shoes at your table. For me, facing
30 women who are looking my direction (not at me) makes me feel my
back is to the wall and I?m facing a firing squad!! Ready, aim, dance.
If you dance simply and well, the women won?t know until they converse
in Spanish and I have to tell them ?No soy Argentino.? Some will say
in English or Spanish ?Where are you from?? or will ask ?Are you from
Miami?  or ?are you from New York? For some reason, they think those
are the only cities in the US. (I?m having a hell of a time with this
Spanish keyboard.)

Be prepared for the unexpected
For the last tango in a tanda, my partner decided on her own that we
were going to dance Cayeunge. (Don?t bother writing I misspelled it.)
she put her left check against my right and lowered my left arm. I?ve
seen this dance twice, never took any lessons, but survived the
challenge.

How much money to bring (everything in pesos)
Figure a milonga will be 20 (including an obligatory beverage). It?s
possible to go to two milongas in a day. I rented a house so my
breakfast bill is minimal from buying groceries. Lunch will be 30
pesos and dinner 40 pesos at Tenedor Libre (buffet), Multiply by the
number of days you?re in BA and divide by 3.6 to convert to US
dollars. Add on for souvenirs, lessons, shoes, etc. There is a NEW
Argentine departure tax of $29US. If you bought your ticket PRIOR to
April 1, the airline didn?t collect it and you?ll pay it at the
airport. After April 1, it should be included in your ticket. Check
with your airlines.

What NOT to wear (non milonga related)
Don?t dress like a tourist. Argentines don?t wear tango T shirts. To
thwart pick pockets, I wear my Israeli army jacked with has zippered
pockets. I don?t want to carry bags. My guide told me to take off my
gold watch. Somebody could bump into me and slide it off my hand.
Leave expensive jewelry (including watches) at home. The Argentines
don?t wear fancy clothes

Next time, I?ll write how to get around town. If you?re in a group,
you don?t have to worry about the language, riding the subway or bus
and using cabeceo. But then, you?ll miss some of the life and energy
of the city.

Tomorrow is laundry day and Gricel, which I haven?t been to yet. Today
I took a 6 hour walking tour of Plaza San Martin down to Plaza de
Mayo. (I bought the Living Earth(?) guide book. Tomorrow I plan a
walking tour of the Port or La Boca.

Reporting from Buenos Aires
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC

-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 15 22:54:42 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904151809v61b9c1b4m30d3ce5a21d28a10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<13176a380904151809v61b9c1b4m30d3ce5a21d28a10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <270225.26392.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


I agree with Mario. If I'm going to do a linear walk to the cross, I'll ALWAYS do 
it in crossed feet. It's just much more comfortable and keeps the lady closer. 

If I step outside right in parallel, it's because I intend to do something else 
before reaching the cross position. There are many options. 

Jack



> From: Michael tangomaniac at cavtel.net

> I don?t agree. > 
> 
> Mario wrote:
> >
> > 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a 
> giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go 
> all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.



      



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Apr 16 12:33:08 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:33:08 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to BA, the tango mecca
Message-ID: <49E75DC4.1050801@shahrukhmerchant.com>

> I?m in BA for the FIRST time. These are my OBSERVATIONS  ...

Quite refreshing to see a post of observations of how things *are* (or 
appear to be, anyway) amongst all those of how things *should be* ... 
:-) Very good posts, Michael, that should give a good feel to other 
first-timers, but let me add some comments of my own as well.

> ... I?m going to the
> milongas near the house (Lo de Celia, El Arranque, and Leonesa
> 
> Cabeceo
> It is practiced religiously here. You need to understand it before you
> come.

If only that were true (I am a cabeceo believer)! For the milongas you 
mention above, yes, indeed that is true (with the exception of Ni?o Bien 
at Leonesa where it's at best partially true). But at milongas such as 
Parakultural at Canning, Porte?o y Bailarin, among many others that have 
high percentage of foreign visitors, it seems to be dying if not dead.

> She will
> respond with a nod (yes) or shake of the head (no). If yes, I meet her
> at the closest corner where there are no tables. I go onto the floor
> first to find a spot and she comes onto the floor.

Usually, she will ignore (pretend she didn't see you) if it's a "no" 
(though I actually prefer the shake of the head as the recipient). Also, 
as someone else pointed out, normally you would walk over to her table 
once she accepted, and she would stand up only when you were rather 
close to her table (this confirms that it was her you had asked and not 
someone else in the same line of sight--it also maintains the chivalrous 
aspect of the man going over to receive the woman). However, if the 
space is very tight and/or it is very crowded, indeed compromises are 
made and you may very well end up meeting at some point between the two 
of you, but almost always closer to where the woman was.

> It?s only close embrace. There?s no open position. ...
> ... I haven?t seen any deviations from this
> embrace by Argentines.

True for the most part (I can usually tell right away if I am dancing 
with an Argentine, if I haven't already got other clues beforehand) from 
how naturally she adopts a close embrace. There are of course exceptions 
both ways. On the Argentine side, there is a certain "nuevo" following 
who will adopt an open embrace as their "default" and also occasionally 
a performance- and ballet-trained dancer who will put her left hand on 
the man's right bicep and use that to push herself AWAY from the man 
(the former I can deal with, but I especially dislike the latter ... 
precludes any type of connection whatsoever).

> It?s very simple because the embrace is EVERYTHING, not the figures.
> It?s walking, ocho cortado, molinetes and very low boleos, if any.

I would add: ochos (in the milonguero style you describe later for the 
back ochos where the woman swivels her hips minimally and the legs are 
almost crossing each other), and cruzada (perhaps you were including 
that in "walking"). Also, boleos are very much part of the dance, but 
indeed they are low and usually very subtle rather than the "whip 
action" of the performance boleo, and are more likely to be seen in the 
slower more melodic music.

> When you pack your luggage, leave your valcadas, colgaldas, and
> displacements are home. You won?t need them and you may throw the
> Argentines off.

Yes, unless you're going to some of the more nuevo-friendly places 
mentioned in recent postings. And it's not a question just of "throwing 
the Argentines off," but really you would be taking up more than your 
share of space on the floor, not integrating with the flow, and in 
general coming across as a nuisance and show-off. On displacements, 
however, the sacada is indeed within the canon of traditional tango, but 
again in more subtle ways (a gentle sacada preceding a giro to the left, 
for example). But you're right that the stage-type high sacadas or back 
sacadas or woman's sacada, etc., would not fit in most milongas in 
Buenos Aires.

It's really not that the figures are taboo, but rather that the dictates 
of plain common consideration preclude their use, except perhaps at the 
very end of the milonga if there happens to be a lot of space. By the 
way, when this is violated, it's not just by foreigners--there are any 
number of "hot-shot" Argentine dancers guilty of the same, including a 
handful of some rather well-known teachers. (They generally don't 
frequent the more traditional milongas, however.)

> Surprisingly, the Argentines talk for about the first 30 seconds of
> following dances in the tanda. I was told that when young people were
> chaperoned, the only time they could talk without their parents
> knowing what was said was at the beginning of each musical selection.

That's the standard explanation :-) about the chaperon, though I'm not 
sure I believe it.

I rather like this tradition, to the point that I've become rather 
addicted to it. My second dance of the tanda, especially with a 
stranger, is often noticeably more comfortable and relaxed because of 
this 30-second "ice-breaker." It also allows you to incorporate the 
music into your being before taking the first step, and reinforces the 
feeling that the milonga is about being social within the context of 
dancing tango, rather than about taking as many steps as possible during 
the evening.

I admit it gets me into trouble outside of Buenos Aires, where the 
puzzled woman is wondering whether I'm stalling because I no longer want 
to dance with her, or that I'm clueless to the fact that the music has 
started, but it has become somewhat of a habit. It could be annoying on 
a crowded floor outside Buenos Aires where no one else is doing it, 
since then you're impeding traffic, but in Buenos Aires it's de rigueur.

Shahrukh

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 16 14:03:16 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <150412.17443.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as
> used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has
> the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening,
> during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good
> (if given the choice).

You've obviously spent some time looking at this and I appreciate your observations.  It's interesting that you noted the music as being important for the milonguero.  That's one of the reasons cross system is used so much.  Have you also noticed that followers are usually led to cross on the half-beat?  Musically, it all goes with the quick-quick-slow timing.

Cross systems allows more figures than parallel but there are still certain types of communication that work best in parallel.  Part of the reason one might say that tango "is dirty". ;-)

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Thu Apr 16 14:37:31 2009
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:37:31 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <294284.47119.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <172225127.20090416143731@attglobal.net>

Mario -

While I am sure your statistics are right, virtually everything
tango-related on YouTube is a demonstration, which means a performance
of sorts that would, as seen in your three examples below, grind a
line of dance to a standstill.

Your statistics therefore, like the videos themselves, though
doubtless of value to the aspiring performer, are neither enlightening
nor helpful to the social dancer. But the promulgation of these videos
does explain why one so rarely sees an actual functioning line of
dance.

Regards/Richard



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 17 00:43:33 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <150412.17443.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <150412.17443.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <886665.47384.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com

>It's interesting that you noted the music as being important for 
> the milonguero.? That's one of the reasons cross system is used so much.? 

I'm surprised to hear you say that and I'm not sure if?I really agree. As Mario noted:

"6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position.? I checked with
some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet 
was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages."

I've always thought that the crossed system was used when walking outside 
partner as it was then easier to maintain the chest-to-chest contact that is a 
requirement of milonguero style. But I do agree that using double-time steps 
to change from parallel to crossed and vice-versa can certainly add to his own 
musicality.

Jack



      



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Fri Apr 17 16:50:17 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:50:17 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
Message-ID: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>

Here are some travel tips:
1) Buy the Insight fleximap of BA. It?s laminated so it won?t rip like
paper from opening and closing.The website is www.insight.com

2) Buy a BA Guide Book. Mine is lonely planet.

3) Get a copy of BA Tango Guide. Write to abatango at Yahoo.com and
you?ll get on the email list. It lists practicas, advertisements for
shows and lessons, and the milongas.

4) Arriving at BA?s airport
A) Go through immigration
B)  Collect your luggage and go through Customs. The Customs
declaration form asks for your cell phone serial and model numbers.
C) Currency Exchange
Use Banco de Nacional Argentina at the airport and not kiosks. There
is no commission charge at the bank. If possible, get all the pesos
you?ll need. You?ll have to wait in line if you decide to do it in
town. In fact waiting in line at the bank is the Argentine national
pastime, not futbol.

There are windows inside the security zone. If they?re closed, there
are doors outside the security zone. Have your passport ready.
(Remember to bring a copy of your passport and credit cards) so in
case they?re stolen you know the numbers.

D) At a newsstand, buy Guia ?T?de Bolsillo Capital Federal. It?s a map
of BA showing ALL the streets by barrio. It has more detail than the
insight map.

E)  Use Remise instead of Taxis to get into town. Remiss charge a flat
fare (about $100 pesos) whereas taxis charge by the meter. You pay the
rate PLUS tolls.

F) Buy some sunscreen if you come during the hot months. You can buy
it here as ?dermaglos solar.??
**********************************************************************************************************

Public Transportation

A. The subway ?el subtle? (subterra?neo)
is easy to use. You can get a farecard called monedero though I don?t
know where. My guide had an extra which she gave me. You can add
value, just like farecards in New York and Washington, DC.

B. Buses
The bus routes are difficult to read in the Guia. In New York, they
are called buses, in Mexico called autobus and in BA are called
colectivos. There are 700+ bus routes, all operated by private
companies. Each route (outbound and inbound) is described in detail in
the back of the guia. However, when you look at a barrio in the guia,
you don?t see bus routes on streets. Each barrio is divided into map
grids. When I took my walking tour of Retiro and Microcenter, I found
the grids for both the house and Retiro (tour starting point) and
looked to see which buses operated in both grids. I found that bus 150
was listed in both grids so I took the 150 from the house.

There is a fare zone system. Tell the driver your destination. He will
punch a button that will display your fare on the farebox. Enter coins
(exact change) only. The machine will give you a ticket. Hold onto the
ticket in case transit enforcement comes on the bus to check for
tickets.
Fares range from 1.2 to 1.75 pesos depending on distance.

Because the bus companies are privately owned, there are no transfers
which means you have to pay an additional fare if you change to
another bus.

Next dispatch, if anybody is there reading, will be about my horrible
night at Gricel. What a disaster! I couldn?t wait to pay my water bill
and leave. I?m never going back!

Reporting from Buenos Aires where it still feels like summer instead of fall
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 17 19:02:32 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <886665.47384.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <471237.14203.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Fri, 4/17/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com
> 
> >It's interesting that you noted the music as being
> important for 
> > the milonguero.? That's one of the reasons cross
> system is used so much.? 
> 
> I'm surprised to hear you say that and I'm not sure
> if?I really agree. 


Let me clarify.  I think that cross system is used to enhance the musicality as opposed to the fact that it allows more figures.  I did not say that cross system was used just as much or more than parallel.  Musically, walking to the cross in parallel is rather bland.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      


From tanguero at tanguero.com  Fri Apr 17 19:43:51 2009
From: tanguero at tanguero.com (Tanguero)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:43:51 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco
Message-ID: <181D9655C0C44746A4274C8D2DF630EE@loreenarbus.local>

Dear Bay Area Folks:

 

What do you suggest as the best, most well-attended, gender-balanced places for Tango (Milongas!) from Mon., 4/20 through Tues., 4/28?

 

Best regards,

 

Loreen

 

E-mail: tanguero at tanguero.com

Website: www.tanguero.com

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 17 23:47:31 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <355205.86244.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Michael tangomaniac at cavtel.net

> C) Currency Exchange
> Use Banco de Nacional Argentina at the airport and not kiosks. There
> is no commission charge at the bank. If possible, get all the pesos
> you?ll need. You?ll have to wait in line if you decide to do it in
> town. In fact waiting in line at the bank is the Argentine national
> pastime, not futbol.
> 

I've never stepped inside a bank in BaSa. I just use the El Banco ATMs 
and withdrawals are deducted from my home account with no charges. 
When I was there in February the limit was 600 pesos per day.

Michael, 
Sorry and surprised you had a bad time at Gricel. I always liked it. 

Jack


      



From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 18 08:14:08 2009
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 05:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <355205.86244.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>
	<355205.86244.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <343787.81363.qm@web32007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I too always use an ATM. It may be a bit more expensive at times, perhaps, but is very convenient and a time-saver (24/7).

...dubravko

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> To: tango-l <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:47:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
> 
> 
> > From: Michael tangomaniac at cavtel.net
> 
> > C) Currency Exchange
> > Use Banco de Nacional Argentina at the airport and not kiosks. There
> > is no commission charge at the bank. If possible, get all the pesos
> > you?ll need. You?ll have to wait in line if you decide to do it in
> > town. In fact waiting in line at the bank is the Argentine national
> > pastime, not futbol.
> > 
> 
> I've never stepped inside a bank in BaSa. I just use the El Banco ATMs 
> and withdrawals are deducted from my home account with no charges. 
> When I was there in February the limit was 600 pesos per day.
> 
> Michael, 
> Sorry and surprised you had a bad time at Gricel. I always liked it. 
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
>       
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com  Sat Apr 18 10:23:54 2009
From: JOANNEPROCHASKA at aol.com (JOANNEPROCHASKA@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:23:54 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
Message-ID: <c7f.2a3547d0.371b3c7a@aol.com>

Can't wait to hear of your Gricel experience.  Everyone loves to 
"rubberneck" to see what disaster has befallen the unfortunate in the other lane of 
traffic!
Please post soon!
Remember, there is something to be learned from all experiences, even 
though they may seem horrible at the time.  Hey, what would life be without 
adventure?
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio


**************
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from 
anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! 
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 12:06:19 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:06:19 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <343787.81363.qm@web32007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>
	<355205.86244.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
	<343787.81363.qm@web32007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W8A1639E2E1E97198AD52DA9780@phx.gbl>


I used el Banco ATM's almost exclusively too, but I'm confused by the "without charges" because as I recall I had to pay a fee to the ATM and another to my bank for the out-of-country transfer. Please explain.

     J



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Life without walls.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1b_explore_042009

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 14:44:14 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:44:14 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1256?q?Report_from_Buenos_Aires_=234=3A_Befor?=
 =?windows-1256?q?e_you_dance=FE?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W45316C964C6F2DBCB1F22B97780@phx.gbl>


To exchange money you may use banks, Casas de cambio ("Cambio", or ATM machines.
 
The ATM machine may charge a fee if you use cards from a different banck, it will not charge a fee if you use a branch of the bank that isued the card. (This is the same as at home).
The fee charged sometimes is for "each transaction" even when you ask for your balance. I heard (I am not sure) the fee is anywhere from 2 to 8 dollars).
 
For transportation from the airport at Ezeiza you may go to the "Ezeiza TAxi" stand in the hall after you leave coustoms.  It is a Blue and white stand and it has a board listing the fare to different areas of the city.
 
If you use a porter for your luggage do not allow him to select the remis company as he most certainly will have a comission that will be charged to you.
 
The usual transportation fee from Ezeiza to most places in town is 80 to 100 pesos (28 dollars). This includes the toll (less than 10 pesos).
 
Best regrds, Sergio
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From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sat Apr 18 14:30:40 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:30:40 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
Message-ID: <49EA1C50.3090009@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Like others no doubt, I have been somewhat skeptical of Mario's "learn 
by YouTube" approach to Tango. But a year and a half later (has it 
really been that long?), he comes up with a not-so-bad summary of 
observations. It occurs to me that probably few people have watched with 
the same degree of scrutiny as many videos (or even live performances 
for that matter) as has Mario, so there is no doubt value to the 
approach and a good "summary record" created of the observations.

The results are still clearly limited by Mario's relative newness to 
Tango as well as the inherent limitations of analysis by watching 
videos, but it nonetheless made an interesting read and provided food 
for thought. I look forward to future versions; until then, here are my 
comments (with the caveat that I have watched almost no Tango on YouTube):

> 1. 90% of 'walk to the cross' is done in cross footed position.
> 2. A 10% (or less) is done in parallel footing.

Consistent with my own observations and preferences. It is more 
comfortable in a close embrace, as one does not have to "get past" ones 
partner as much, and is also more accommodating of wider-girth 
partner(s). It is also more interesting to do owing to its asymmetry 
(both spatial and temporal).

> 3. Cross footed is also used for the back crosses and back ochos.

I am not sure what a "back cross" is, but I suppose I'd agree with the 
comment about back ochos, although there are so many options for the man 
while he leads the woman to a back ocho, I would feel a little less 
confident about this being as blanket a statement.

> 4. That's about all you will see done crossed feet but some dancers
> use the walk to the cross, back cross , ochos and giros for 90% of their dance.

Add ocho cortado (not really an ocho despite the name), and really there 
isn't much else that cannot be considered a variation on or 
embellishment of one of the above. In other words yes, I agree with 
Mario's observations (Michael had made a similar one in his Buenos Aires 
report) that there are really very few elements that are fundamental to 
Tango (but those are REALLY fundamental).

> 5. After the (cross footed) walk to the cross is executed, usually there follows: an immediate giro or a few steps in parallel (or a milonga box) and then a giro right or left. This pattern is amazingly similar with most dancers. It seems like THE thing to do after the walk to the cross.

Well, there are clearly other things one can do after the cruzada that 
fit in with the "milonguero style" (easy example: side step to man's 
left), but it's quite believable that one of the above "usually follow."

> 6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position. Witness
> the Milonga (song) which is 99% danced parallel feet. I checked with
> some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages.

I don't understand this one. What is a "rhythmic pattern"? True enough 
that Milonga is a "parallel-foot" dance (where "cross-foot" is an 
exception for effect, or perhaps for certain syncopations where the man 
is taking 2 steps to the woman's one). But the last statement that 
parallel feet are preferred (in Tango) for the "most musical" passages 
really does not compute.

> 7. The old generation of milongueros (Richard Vidort, etc) danced a lot in parallel position and improvised mainly in it. In looking at the
> old guard, some prefer to dance almost entirely in crossed feet for the Tango and Vals while others choose mainly parallel footing for their dances. (Repetitive movements are important in social dancing with random partners.)

Now you've really lost me. It reminds me of the occasional woman who 
asks chirpily when we take dance position, "Are we dancing open or 
closed?" I never thought of that as something needing clarification or 
commitment before the dance started. But if she were to ask, "Are we 
dancing parallel feet or crossed feet?" I would be truly baffled. The 
two are, of course, not at all mutually exclusive and in Tango there is 
a constant transition between the two. It is to me somewhat artificial 
even to make that distinction, other than as a teaching aid in a 
beginners' class. Unlike many other social partner dances (including 
Milonga), Tango has considerably less built-in symmetry in the steps 
that the man and woman take (which of course is a good part of the 
reason for its complexity and appeal).

> 8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
> The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
> the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.

Here is where a weakness in the "learn by YouTube" approach is more 
evident. For reasons that Michael pointed out, a cross follows from the 
implicit lead that results from the offset position created by the man 
stepping outside the woman's right, and her "wanting to get back in 
front of him." If he is in parallel feet outside her, the offset 
position is even stronger and the (implicit) lead for her to cross even 
stronger.

What Mario is seeing is perhaps that if he steps outside her in parallel 
feet, he actually does so to lead something other than a cross and this 
other lead (by body position or rotation, perhaps) is not as evident in 
a video if you don't already know what to look for. The observation may 
be correct in those videos ("a step outside the woman's right is usually 
not followed by a cross"), but that would only be because the natural 
cross that would follow was superseded by another lead.

> 9. So, walking cross footed means either an immediate walk to the cross or back crosses first (back ochos, too) and then a walk to the cross. .
> When a giro or any turn variation exits with the lead walking outside
> right in crossed feet, the cross follows immediately.

Perhaps mostly true in terms of what usually happens, but I wouldn't use 
this as a "rule" for teaching (though admittedly Mario was not actually 
proposing that), because it incorrectly focusses on the man's foot 
placement as the lead for a woman rather than on what the woman feels 
*as a result of the body position caused by the foot placement*, and 
possibly other lead elements.

> 10. Walking outside follow's left is usually only done for a couple of steps and then the lead crosses in front to go parallel or outside follow's right.

True, it's a less "natural" position and hence not usually prolonged.

> 11. The first step in walking for follow or lead is; if forward begin with the left foot, if backward begin with the right foot. If the first step of a dance (or most sequences) is sideways (open), it's always to the leader's left side.

Again, that's usually what happens, and a good rule of thumb if the man 
is ambiguous in where he puts the woman's weight at the start of the 
dance, but really this should be led, or at least the "default" above 
confirmed by the man positioning the woman's weight consistent with the 
above before taking the first step.

> 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.

Again, I would guess this to be a "correlation vs. causation" error. The 
man doesn't lead the giro BECAUSE he happened to chose an outside walk 
in parallel, but rather he INTENDED to do a giro and hence walked 
outside in parallel to position himself for it. But it's nice to know 
that a parallel outside to cross is that rare (1 in 70 sounds about as 
often as I would do it).

> 13. Any synchopation of the walk, with rock steps, etc. thrown in, is always done in parallel footing. (perhaps for the mirroring desired?)

Rock step, maybe, but "any syncopation" I think not; after all, one 
often uses a syncopation to get into cross position.

> 14. Only 3 or 4 patterns; (walk to cross, back crosses, giros, etc.) need
> be learned, and made automatic, to be able to improvise and lead an
> enjoyable social dance for both partners.

Absolutely correct. I would only take issue with the "and made 
automatic" part. It should be learned to the point that it comes 
naturally to and is danced fluidly by the man, but should never "become 
automatic" for the woman in the sense of being thought of as a sequence 
(self-propelled "ocho machine" alert ...).

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUxVZUtRfA8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
> The above three videos are good examples of the complete dance
> done simply, enjoyably and elegantly.

I'd tend to agree for the first two more than for the last (and 
congratulations--you got me to see THREE YouTube videos in the same day).

> 15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening, during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good (if given the choice).

Not a bad definition (and even allows for non-Argentine "milongueros" 
who cannot whisper, at a moment's notice, piropos excerpted from the the 
lyrics of song then playing!). I would argue, however, that the music 
and embrace, important as they are, would be the SECOND most important 
things, the most important (two) things being the comfort and protection 
of the woman, and the consideration of and respect for the others on the 
dance floor.


Shahrukh

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 18 15:18:24 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:18:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
Message-ID: <321586.76773.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


I really don't know, but I never paid any fee at the ATM and there 
were no charges by my home bank. 

I use?an international bank?which has branches wordwide, including 
Buenos Aires. I don't know if that makes any difference but I used 
ATMs all over the city and am almost certain that I didn't always 
use branches of my home bank.

Jack


> From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com>
> 
> I used el Banco ATM's almost exclusively too, but I'm confused by the "without 
> charges" because as I recall I had to pay a fee to the ATM and another to my 
> bank for the out-of-country transfer. Please explain.
> 


      



From don at aymta.org  Sat Apr 18 15:33:44 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:33:44 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.983.1240071782.5515.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.983.1240071782.5515.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <49EA2B18.1070707@aymta.org>

It depends on your home bank; I normally use Capitol One (both credit & 
debit)so as not to pay foreign transaction fees &c.  I needed more than 
the AR$600, so used a different bank card and it limited me to AR$200.  
Then I discovered you can repeat the withdrawal without leaving the El 
Banco (at least w/ CO).

Don

Jack Dylan wrote :

> I've never stepped inside a bank in BaSa. I just use the El Banco ATMs and withdrawals are deducted from my home account with no charges. > When I was there in February the limit was 600 pesos per day.
> > 


From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Apr 18 20:07:47 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:07:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango & Swing
Message-ID: <20090418.170747.4667.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

Swing was my first love.  I learned the rock-and-roll version when I 
was fifteen from a waitress at my uncle's honky-tonk in Texas, between 
school's letting out and the beginning of happy hour.  I kept coming 
back to it over the years, learning west-coast swing when I moved to 
California.  I never warmed to the Lindy, Jitterbug, and Fast Jive 
versions, though I did dabble in the Balboa, which as very tightly 
contained and slightly slower version of the Lindy.

I hate to see people try to combine the two, though I'd never try to 
keep others from trying it by sneering at them or snubbing them.  The 
two dances are just too far apart for my taste.

But I just now stumbled upon a couple who succeeded at a (sort of) 
fusion of them.  Though I'm not sure fusion is correct.  The two 
dancers basically switch between the two forms, maybe borrowing a move 
or two from one dance in the other.  But whatever they are doing, it 
sure is entertaining!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbIlTrXjTrs


Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat Apr 18 21:00:31 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:00:31 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
Message-ID: <13176a380904181800w760188aeya9e4fcb7ae42272e@mail.gmail.com>

When my father taught me how to drive (I took driver?s education for
the 10% insurance discount), he taught me more than how to make the
car go and stop. He taught me NAVIGATION! I remember going to a
deserted shopping on an early Sunday morning to learn parking and
stopping distances.

Much the same happened when I learned tango, except it wasn?t from my
father nor in a shopping center. Joe always told me about small spaces
on the dance floor in BA and to be ready for anything. (In reflection,
that was an understatement.) My final exam to come here was a 2005
Denver Tango Festival. Could I maneuver through the MERC? I managed
quite well because everybody followed the line of dance. In fact,
there were 2 lines of dance; one around the perimeter and another one
inside that one. Both lanes moved independently but they MOVED and
there was room for everybody. It was a sight to behold!!

Down here, in the home of tango, it?s terrible. There?s a perimeter
and then there?s the inside, I call the VORTEX, where powerful forces
pull dancers all over the floor. People dance clockwise and diagonally
across the vortex.

The Argentines could find the line of dance if you gave them a map,
compass, radar, and GPS!!

I have a theory on the cause. I already wrote they love to talk when
the music begins. I timed how long it takes for the line to move. It
usually take a full MINUTE. Some begin to move at :15, :30, :45 and a
few need the whole minute. A musical selection lasts about 3 minutes
so 1/3 of the music is wasted on chatter.

In the States, Americans are off to the races when the music begins.
It?s rare you see a couple talking instead of dancing. And if the
dance was exquisite, the couple will silently embrace between the
musical selections. Couples don?t do that down here, but that?s
another dispatch.

Argentines don?t have a monopoly on poor navigation. It?s also in the
States, but I don?t think it?s as bad. Nevertheless, I think teachers
and milonga promoters should teach navigation instead of figures that
can?t be danced in small spaces. But of course, ?Moving with the
traffic' will never draw attention like "Colgadas-the missing
ingredient from your dance." Alan Forde of the Atlanta Tango Festival
said more than once "You?re not just dancing with your partner. You?re
dancing with everybody in the line of dance.?"

Gricel has a rectangular floor. Tables face the front wall, seating 6.
The tables are so close to each other, you can have trouble moving
away from your table to dance. Your legs can get caught up in the
chairs legs. (Mine did.) Dancers in the vortex were going clockwise
and counter clockwise. Then tried to change direction at the end of
the floor. BUT there were people behind them so the end just got
jammed, like people getting on a bus but nobody wants to move to the
back.

Another problem is Argentine leaders can?t do spot turns to lead
molinetes.The man moves over to the next lane and the woman slams into
anybody who in the way. For me, I can?t tell is the man is going to
try to return to his spot in front of me.

I hope the Argentines drive better on one-way streets than they
navigate on the dance floor.

I?m probably finished for the night. I danced at Arranque and I want
to take a walking tour of Recoleta tomorrow. I?ll try to send a
milonga review before I leave. Just listing names of milongas really
doesn?t help anybody.

To paraphrase Garrison Keillor of A Prairie Home Companion

That?s the news from Buenos Aires
Where all the women dance in close embrace
All the men need navigation lessons
All the children speak Spanish

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC

-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 21:39:23 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:39:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1256?q?Report_from_Buenos_Aires_=235=FE?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W253A908860DF1F09E533A797790@phx.gbl>


It is interesting that I spent several months dancing in Buenos Aires, many times at Gricel on Fridays and never noticed the navigation problems that michael describes. We have been dancing at Gricel for years without any problems, further more I do not think that people at Gricel dance differently with respect to conversation before dancing or navigation than in other milongas. 

 
I do not wish to blame Michael for his problems at Gricel at all, it is possible that that particular night had several poor dancers on the floor at the same time. 
 
Nito and  Elba teach there twice a week, it is possible that some of their new students were dancing at that particular time. Nito teaches long figures that a new dancer would not know how to fit in a crowded floor.
 
I have noticed   instances of  people colliding, and then leaving the floor asserting that "people do not know how to navigate" blaming the others for their own shortcomings.  
 
As to talking in between tangos before to start dancing is part of being a good milonguero, this has always been a very important part of the tango culture.
 
Before dancing you have to get the "feeling" of the music, you have to develop the right mood and attitude towards that particular melody that just started to play. 
 
 You never start dancing right away as the music begins.  You converse with your partner while you wait to get the right feeling to make a good interpretation of the music.  You normally wait for the couple in front of you to start dancing and only then you start moving.
 
The same way you do not come straight from the street and jump into the dancing floor to start dancing, no way!
 
You look around, greet your friends, sit at a table and sip some wine while listening to the music, you patiently wait till you spirit is ready to start dancing, till your feet literally want to start dancing, Only then you ask a lady to dance and you start your journey on the dancing floor.
 
Best wishes, Sergio
 
 
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From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 22:17:53 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:17:53 +1000
Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Re:_=5BTango-L=5D_Report_from_Buenos_Aires_#5=FE?=
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W253A908860DF1F09E533A797790@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W253A908860DF1F09E533A797790@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS44BA1C0A662923AEA7B2AAE790@phx.gbl>



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:39 AM
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5?


> this has always been a very important part of the tango culture.
>


>From my observations, only in BsAs tango culture.

My recent experience at Club Gricel:   We had a reservation: To get in only 
it seems!  They then made our party stand at the bar at the back.  I was 
only able to stand in the passage to the kitchen. I watched the sardines on 
the floor for an hour, decided that any hope of getting a dance from someone 
seated, using the codes to get a locals attention was utterly  was useless 
and left when my back could no longer take it.



 


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 18 23:43:53 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:43:53 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango & Swing
Message-ID: <BLU119-W49D87C15DF6C13E0AAAD2C91790@phx.gbl>


Larry - The first half of the routine is simply very poor quality Balboa - Way TOO bouncy!!
They throw in one or two Tango steps and then switch to a mix of Lindy and Charleston.

One can easily do a MUCH better fusion than I see here.  A local couple here in fact  
routinely does so, blending Tango and Balboa very smoothly.  People who don't know any better 
tend to think that it is one dance rather than a mix of two.

David. 

_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 19 01:08:40 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904181800w760188aeya9e4fcb7ae42272e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904181800w760188aeya9e4fcb7ae42272e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <467519.98245.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Michael is certainly a brave [foolhardy?] American to make his 
first trip to Buenos Aires and then criticise the way Argentines 
dance Tango. Kinda reminds me of an American who visited 
Europe and criticised Soccer for being disorganised and chaotic 
because the teams didn't stop and regroup every few seconds 
they way they do in American Football.

There's no doubt that the Argentines dance Tango very differently 
to the visitors. The question is, can you adapt, learn and enjoy 
the milongas the Argentine way or become disgruntled because 
'they don't do things?the way we do?them back home'.

And I don't recall anyone saying that dancing Tango in Buenos 
Aires would be easy for a first-time visitor.
Jack



> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> 
> Down here, in the home of tango, it?s terrible. There?s a perimeter
> and then there?s the inside, I call the VORTEX, where powerful forces
> pull dancers all over the floor. People dance clockwise and diagonally
> across the vortex.
> 
> The Argentines could find the line of dance if you gave them a map,
> compass, radar, and GPS!!
>?
> In the States, Americans are off to the races when the music begins.
> It?s rare you see a couple talking instead of dancing. 
> 
> Another problem is Argentine leaders can?t do spot turns to lead
> molinetes.The man moves over to the next lane and the woman slams into
> anybody who in the way. For me, I can?t tell is the man is going to
> try to return to his spot in front of me.
> 
> I hope the Argentines drive better on one-way streets than they
> navigate on the dance floor.
> 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 19 01:23:14 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
Message-ID: <282349.4782.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


I've always understood that there are only 2 'rhythmic patterns' generally used 
in social Tango. One is the 'slow, slow', stepping on beats 1 and 3 and the other 
is 'quick, quick, slow' stepping on beats 1, 2 and 3. 

I'd be interested to learn of other 'rhythmic patterns'? besides the 1, 3 and 
the 1, 2, 3. For example, does anyone double-time on 3, 4, 1? I've tried it
but it never feels quite right.

Jack

?
?
> From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com>
>
> 
> I don't understand this one. What is a "rhythmic pattern"? 
> 


      



From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Apr 19 05:07:47 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:07:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] tango and rhythm
Message-ID: <20090419.020747.1014.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>

The basic rhythm of tango is a medium-paced walk, slow-slow as some
would call it. But the beauty of tango is that it's an improvised
dance. The leader can create any rhythm, any combination of quicks,
very quicks, slows, very slows, stops, and so on.

If he firms up his embrace his partner knows to adopt the same rhythm.
If he relaxes it she knows to keep to the basic rhythm. Her
predictability lets him do movements like sacadas.

With this freedom comes the possibility (maybe the likelihood) that
some of these invented rhythms will fail because they don't fit the
music, confuse his partner, cause him to forget the rest of the
dancers, and so on. Or because they are just ugly.

With this freedom also comes the responsibility to first master the
basics of movement, balance, embrace, musicality, and so on that your
inventions add to your dancing rather than show you up as as inept
fool.

Trying to make rules about which invented rhythm is right for what
movement is a game for fools, or for authoritarians who want to make
everyone else conform to their idea of what is right.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com


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From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Apr 19 08:13:31 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:13:31 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] tango and rhythm
Message-ID: <20090419.051331.2483.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com>

So how fast is a Quick and a Slow? It depends on the orchestra leader, who sets the 
TEMPO by which his orchestra plays each measure. Early tangos were usually quite 
fast, about a half-second per measure. Tango music evolved from that tempo, partly 
because conservatory-trained musicians from Europe began playing with their 
sophisticated toolkit of techniques. Then a measure might take about a second or, 
if di Sarli was the leader, a second and a half.

So in a second/measure tempo a Slow would be a half second, and a Quick a quarter 
of a second. A dancer would typically step on the 1 and the 3 quarter notes of a 
piece of music written with a 4/4 signature.

You likely noticed the qualifiers in the previous: "about" and "typically" and so 
on. That's because orchestra leaders in the 30s began to vary the tempo with which 
they had their musicians play individual pieces - and the tempo WITHIN a piece.

D'Arienzo was one of the first to do this. He also began to vary the force by which 
his musicians played different parts of a piece: very loud here and very soft 
there. So soft that sometimes dancers had to infer the tempo and the beats of music 
- as here starting at about 1:10 minutes into "La Cumparsita."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y7Cnw99GKQ

As the 1940s passed and dancers became more numerous and more musically 
sophisticated orchestra leaders had to come up with more sophisticated techniques 
to capture and keep dancers and other listeners. One such technique was swapping 
the bass and melody lines. So the beat would be kept by a violin, and the melody by 
the bass viol or the left (bass) hand on the piano.

OK. That decides it. I will send "The Alfar's Husband" to the magazine first, THEN 
"Lady Death." Ciao!

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



____________________________________________________________
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From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 08:37:59 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:37:59 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <467519.98245.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <13176a380904181800w760188aeya9e4fcb7ae42272e@mail.gmail.com>
	<467519.98245.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904190537m4b6196fcn83f57b0199769dab@mail.gmail.com>

I would have to agree with Jack here...  Except I'll say it is
incredibly arrogant to say that they can't dance the line of dance...

Having danced most places around the world, the Argentinians are still
the best at this dance.  This DOES not mean that others have not
mastered it, but it is their dance.  There are very very few milonga's
anywhere in the world as busy as an Argentinian floor and more than
likely, half the people making your experience this time difficult
were people like you - criticising, and not learning also as Jack
suggested...

A skilled dancer dances well under all conditions... sounds like you
maybe need to spend more time there...

From Crrtango at aol.com  Sun Apr 19 11:12:51 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:12:51 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <d5c.39931ce7.371c9973@aol.com>

re Michael's experience in Bs. As.: 

With all due respect, MIchael, I think this is another one of those reality 
checks.    This might be a good time to reevaluate your dancing skills.    
In fact, this is a perfect time while you are there.   Find some good 
teachers, take classes and try to fix things.    We learn from humbling 
experiences.   I hope you will do the same.

Cheers,
Charles
  


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 
easy steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814852x1201410738/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%
26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter419NO62)

From don at aymta.org  Sun Apr 19 11:30:39 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:30:39 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.983.1240071782.5515.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.983.1240071782.5515.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <49EB439F.8020608@aymta.org>

This and the other guides, el tangauta, Milonga, &c are available by internet; I get la Gu?a Trimestral *B.A. TANGO ? Buenos Aires Tango* automatically as a .pdf file.  But for the most current material check Ofer Valencio Akerman's site <http://www.batangoportal.com/event_display.cfm?sesid=>.

Don

Michael wrote

> 3) Get a copy of BA Tango Guide. Write to abatango at Yahoo.com and
> you?ll get on the email list. It lists practicas, advertisements for
> shows and lessons, and the milongas.
>   


From dchester at charter.net  Sun Apr 19 13:40:34 2009
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:40:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
In-Reply-To: <mailman.573.1240157322.14849.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.573.1240157322.14849.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <001401c9c115$f1587530$d4095f90$@net>

Jack,

I will sometimes do the quick-quick slow on the 3,4,1 beats.  It depends on
the phrase in the song as to whether it makes any sense though.  You can't
(or at least I don't recommended trying to) force it in just anywhere.  BTW,
on rare occasions I'll also do a quick-quick quick-quick slow pattern.  I'm
still experimenting with this though.


Mario,

I'm enjoying seeing you get some vindication on your video study.  While
more times than not, I tried to stay out of the debates with the naysayers
(although occasionally I've stepped into it), I've found video study to
greatly enhance my learning of tango, and I know my progress has been
greatly enhanced by it.  Sometimes people say something can't be done, when
the truth is a lot closer to, THEY don't know how to do it.

Take care,

David

------------------------------
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Message-ID: <282349.4782.qm at web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


I've always understood that there are only 2 'rhythmic patterns' generally
used 
in social Tango. One is the 'slow, slow', stepping on beats 1 and 3 and the
other 
is 'quick, quick, slow' stepping on beats 1, 2 and 3. 

I'd be interested to learn of other 'rhythmic patterns'? besides the 1, 3
and 
the 1, 2, 3. For example, does anyone double-time on 3, 4, 1? I've tried it
but it never feels quite right.

Jack



From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Apr 19 14:36:21 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:36:21 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
Message-ID: <49EB6F25.6070800@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Sorry Michael, your report was not convincing enough to garner sympathy 
from this corner either ...  When you stated in your earlier email that 
you had such a terrible experience that you wouldn't go back, I imagined 
it was something along the lines of the organizer being unspeakably rude 
(doubtful) or being mugged at gunpoint on the doorstep, or perhaps at 
least what Vince described at being let in without warning that there 
were no chairs (a reasonable expectation at Milongas in Buenos Aires--El 
Beso, for example, which is a smaller place, puts out a sign at the 
entrance desk to that effect when they are full so you know it's 
standing room only before you pay).

But you didn't seem to have this experience at other Milongas, so 
clearly something did happen to put you in a bad mood (your previous 
apparently neutral comment on Argentine's talking for the first 30 
seconds changed tone to the decidedly negative and, quite frankly, 
judgmental "1/3 of the music is wasted on chatter"). It happens to us 
all: one is or gets into a less-than-good mood for whatever reason and 
then it's a downward spiral where it seems like the world is conspiring 
against you. Of course that's true in life in general, but somehow it 
seems to become accentuated in milongas in Buenos Aires (don't ask me why).

Sometimes, when there seems to be no hope of snapping out of it (e.g., a 
favourite partner or a good friend just walked in, the bottle of 
champagne that you forgot you ordered just arrived), it's best to cut 
your losses and go to another milonga or even just go home. I know 
that's not an easy option if you're just in Buenos Aires on a short 
visit and want to make the most of your time, but in that case you just 
have to chalk it up to it being a "bad milonga night"--it is part of the 
experience.

Shahrukh

From jb34528 at att.net  Sun Apr 19 16:04:31 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:04:31 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <041920092004.19274.49EB83CF0002D76E00004B4A22230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

Maybe I did not follow this discussion carefully enough. I did not see the question: "Michael, how do you know those chaotic dancers at Gricel were Argentines?" Gricel makes the list of "nice milongas" so there could be a lot of tango turistas. Either individual or a truckload brought in by a tour organizer.
Jan

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 22:02:01 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:02:01 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] tango and rhythm
In-Reply-To: <20090419.020747.1014.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090419.020747.1014.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904191902l20e9469co3993e7aa0f29a387@mail.gmail.com>

Slow is usually 2 beats at whatever rate the orchestra is playing....
Quick is usually 1...
Half time is usually 4...

Etc etc etc...

Traspie is where most fall apart and don't understand it..

====    ====    ====    ====
If the above is 4 beats, then in milonga with a 2/4 timing, that would
be 2 bars...
Breaking it into stepping on the beat for Lise, then this for traspie..

====   === =   ====   ====   (stepping at all the breaks...)
or....
====   = ===   ====   ====

Probably a poor example.. but it gives you an idea...

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 19 22:11:13 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:11:13 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] First trip to Buenos Aires
In-Reply-To: <d5c.39931ce7.371c9973@aol.com>
References: <d5c.39931ce7.371c9973@aol.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380904191911j25d88016tafa321e3eea18a24@mail.gmail.com>

Charles:
When a woman says ?muy bien?or ?bien? to me,  I must be doing
something right.  I don?t know why women would otherwise say
something. They aren?t obligated to say anything between the dances.
Of course, NOT every woman says that. If my dancing was terrible, I
don?t think the Argentines would dance with me and just ignore my
cabeceo.

Regardless of where you dance, there are compatible partners (music,
skill level, passion) and then there aren?t. If I wasn?t compatible
with ANY of the women, I?d have to evaluate my situation.

Michael


On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:12 PM,  <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:
> re Michael's experience in Bs. As.:
>
> With all due respect, MIchael, I think this is another one of those reality
> checks. ? ?This might be a good time to reevaluate your dancing skills.
> In fact, this is a perfect time while you are there. ? Find some good
> teachers, take classes and try to fix things. ? ?We learn from humbling
> experiences. ? I hope you will do the same.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>
>
>
> **************
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
> easy steps!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814852x1201410738/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%
> 26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter419NO62)
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 19 22:15:42 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:15:42 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L]  Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904191904q7a24f94dvf1f75a74080f6087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904171350m5567f3d0r723a83add14d2b05@mail.gmail.com>
	<8F673CF073974786A78B6F805DAEEAEE@edmundoj4f34tz>
	<13176a380904191904q7a24f94dvf1f75a74080f6087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380904191915o6d8a2fb8r8036cda421037bc0@mail.gmail.com>

Edmundo:

Thank you for the comments. I went to Feria Matadores last weekend.
This weekend I went to San Telmo. I`ll write later about a beautiful
sign I bought in Spanish.

There are nieghborhood milongas where I?m staying in San Cristobal
within walking distance.
I?m going to post a review of each of them. The subway shuts down
around 11 and I don?t want to rely on a bus service or finding a cab.

Michael

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Edmundo <erueda1 at elp.rr.com> wrote:
> Michael
>
> Just a few travel tips based on my seven trips to Baires. ?Every year, I
> lease an apartment on Corrientes street 3 blocks from the Obelisco during
> their winters:
> 1. Gricel is a neighborhood milonga with excellent dancing when it is not
> too crowded. ?I am sorry you had a bad experience. ?Maybe it was all a
> misunderstanding since you do not speak Spanish and do not know the culture
> since this is your first trip to Baires. Porte?os are lively, articulate,
> and very nice when treated likewise. ?Otherwise they do have a fiery temper.
>
> 3. ?Have you tried some of the milongas in the suburbs that are more
> authentic, not too many tourists, such as: Glorias Argentinas, Boedo Tango,
> Sunderland, Sin Rumbo, La Baldosa, etc. etc.? Have you tried the FREE
> Glorieta dancing in the park at Belgrano on the weekends?
>> 5. ?Your best bet for getting around the city is the Subte and then walk to
> your destination. Colectivos can be disorienting sometimes.
> 6. ?Have you been to the delta at El Tigre and the outdoor fair in
> Mataderos? ?Have you eaten a grilled Choripan in the street with a nice cold
> beer and shoot the bull with the local people?
>> 8. ?Be careful when you go to the Boca/Caminito/Riachuelo fair on the
> weekends because it gets too crowded. ?Instead try and walk the cobblestone
> streets in San Telmo when they have the street fairs on the weekends.
>
> Chau and best of everything.
>
> MUNDO in Texas


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 19 22:27:16 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:27:16 -0300
Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Re=3A_=5BTango=2DL=5D_Report_from_Buenos_Aires_=235=FE?=
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W253A908860DF1F09E533A797790@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W253A908860DF1F09E533A797790@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <13176a380904191927m6b8c9510v865f356e3c0b343d@mail.gmail.com>

Sergio:
To clarify, I?ve seen Argentines collide with Argentines. Then the two
men get into an argument. At Gricel, the partner of one just looked
around the room with a look that said ?Will somebody please rescue
me?? At Arranque, a man accused the other of leading the woman to do a
boleo which scuffed his pants. If I was the ONLY person having
collisions, I?ve have to sit down and evaluate. But when I see the
Argentines having problems, well, that puts a whole new light on the
matter.

Tonight, I went to lo de Celia. The floor actually has a line that
goes around the perimeter. I see couples moving from one side of the
line to the other. That?s not good navigation.

Michael

2009/4/18 Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>:
>
> It is interesting that I spent several months dancing in Buenos Aires, many times at Gricel on Fridays and never noticed the navigation problems that michael describes. We have been dancing at Gricel for years without any problems, further more I do not think that people at Gricel dance differently with respect to conversation before dancing or navigation than in other milongas.
>
>
> I do not wish to blame Michael for his problems at Gricel at all, it is possible that that particular night had several poor dancers on the floor at the same time.
>
> Nito and ?Elba teach there twice a week, it is possible that some of their new students were dancing at that particular time. Nito teaches long figures that a new dancer would not know how to fit in a crowded floor.
>
> I have noticed ? instances of ?people colliding, and then leaving the floor asserting that "people do not know how to navigate" blaming the others for their own shortcomings.
>
> As to talking in between tangos before to start dancing is part of being a good milonguero, this has always been a very important part of the tango culture.
>
> Before dancing you have to get the "feeling" of the music, you have to develop the right mood and attitude towards that particular melody that just started to play.
>
> ?You never start dancing right away as the music begins. ?You converse with your partner while you wait to get the right feeling to make a good interpretation of the music. ?You normally wait for the couple in front of you to start dancing and only then you start moving.
>
> The same way you do not come straight from the street and jump into the dancing floor to start dancing, no way!
>
> You look around, greet your friends, sit at a table and sip some wine while listening to the music, you patiently wait till you spirit is ready to start dancing, till your feet literally want to start dancing, Only then you ask a lady to dance and you start your journey on the dancing floor.
>
> Best wishes, Sergio
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Rediscover Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates2_042009
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Apr 19 22:38:27 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:38:27 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance
Message-ID: <20090419.193827.20515.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

Thanks, Don Klein, on your link to batangoportal.com. It seems as if
its creator keeps it pretty up to date. I especially like the fact
that with a click of the button the info will display in several ways,
over the next 3-day, 7-day, etc. periods. And we can look at just the
practicas or milongas or classes or whatever.

I also love Tito Palumbo's batango guides. Because they are emailed in
PDF format I can print them out, mark them up, and take them with me
on a trip to BsAs. Online guides are great, but it's not always
(or often!) easy to use them on a trip.

Palumbo's guides are not just to milongas. They also tell you where
to buy stuff, find teachers, and musicians, and much more.

I also like the many advertisements. The milonga, etc., lists are 
compact but give very little info. The ads give more, and sometimes
include photos of teachers which helps you when you go to the studio
and look around, wondering who to approach.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



____________________________________________________________
BUGS? Target them with the best in Pest Control. Click Here.
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From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Apr 19 22:45:57 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:45:57 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] tango and rhythm 3
Message-ID: <20090419.194557.20515.1@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

The natural rhythm of the tango has several profound consequences.

One is that learning to dance tango at the most basic level is fairly 
easy.  You just embrace your partner and walk around the dance floor to 
the music.  Well, easy at first.  When you become an advanced dancer 
you may do what many before you have done - return to the most basic 
level and start again, this time paying attention to subtleties you may 
not have even been able to notice when you began tango.  As milonguero 
Puppy Castello said, "Figures are easy; walking is hard."

One other is that, not having to focus on a difficult rhythm such as 
West Coast Swing's slow-slow-quickity-quick, you have more time to 
focus on your embrace and the person in it, other people sharing the 
floor, and the music.  The intimacy of the first of those is why it is 
possible in tango to feel so much depth of emotion in a simple dance.

Another consequence is that it is easier to recover from mistakes made 
while dancing, something everyone does no matter how great they are.  
We've had decades of practice recovering to a simple walk.  We may even 
come to welcome mistakes, as proof that we have the courage to risk 
adventures.  And discover new ways of dancing in the midst of the 
recovery.  And gain confidence in our ability to meet challenges.

Another is that if a simple walk becomes boring we already have many 
tricks to enliven it.  We can add adornos between each step by tapping 
the floor with the ball or toe of our foot (golpes and golpecitos).  Or 
giving little kicks in front of or behind or beside our supporting foot 
(or larger kicks when the traffic allows.): amagues, boleos, and so on.  
We can play with the rhythm.  We can play with our relationship with 
our partner, perhaps by walking to their left or right rather than with 
our right (or rarely left) leg inside their legs.

And if we grow tired or faint-hearted or aware of an annoyed partner 
tired of our foolishments we can always retreat to the basics.  Or if a 
sad tango is being played we can express sorrow by dancing with simple 
but deeply-felt emotion, remembering those people away from us, perhaps 
forever.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



____________________________________________________________
Experienced hair restoration. Find out more about your options. Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsH2PbUwjSAPxtIYmB62kvFEzUgsSO1sCiYEwhuPQAqJ5mt4MPsFu4/


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Apr 20 10:38:17 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:38:17 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #6: Social customs
Message-ID: <13176a380904200738x24578da1i5c50765ef1dc3ae3@mail.gmail.com>

Several years ago, somebody wrote on the list that you shouldn?t take
photos or videos at milongas because some people don?t want to be seen
with partners they aren?t married to. I thought this was strange but
then the Argentine culture is different from the American culture.

An Argentine man, who was in the States for three years and spoke good
English (better than my Spanish) told me:
"I have a wife.
I have a lover.
I can?t take on any more women."

I don?t remember how it came up in conversation because I wouldn?t
think of asking. But based on his comment, the previous listing now
makes sense. I just wonder where the man?s wife and lover are while he
is dancing.

Couples who have a private relationship and want to keep it private,
enter the milonga separately and sit separately. They will not dance
two consecutive tandas, which is common in the States. They will dance
with other dancers before they return to each other.

Why? The Argentines have behavior codes. One of them is not to dance
with somebody else?s life partner. Men don?t use cabeceo with a woman
sitting at a table with another man. If the Argentines think that two
people are a couple, men won?t ask and women won?t accept an
invitation.

Cabeceo problem: Two men and a woman
It?s not first come, first served. If the woman isn?t standing when
you are in her  proximity, start wondering if she accepted your
invitation. If you see another man closing in, start wondering if you
came in second place. I?ve been told that men will go to the men?s
room if they came in second. But sometimes, the men?s room is in the
opposite direction.

Cabeceo problem: Two women and a man
I?ve seen both women run back to their tables in embarrassment,
sometimes letting out a shriek which only calls attention to the
miscommunication. The man has to be quick to go after the woman he
wanted to dance because it will look terrible for him. To ask one
woman to dance, get two, and dance with NONE, that?s embarrassing,
though regardless of size of ego, nobody seems to die from it.

I?ll be posting a review of the milongas ??ve attended and I hope
others do the same. Dropping names of milongas, e.g. Canning,
Sunderland, Almagro really doesn?t help.

Back to line of dance

If I was the only foreigner who was involved in collisions, I wouldn?t
post to the list because it would advertise my poor dancing skills.
When I see Argentines have collisions, well, that?s a different story.

To clarify about my Gricel listing. I commented only on the difficulty
of getting out from my table and meeting the woman on the floor. The
host Thursday night was very pleasant and spoke English when I said
?Soy Norteamericano. Espanol no esta prima idioma." (I?m a north
American. Spanish isn?t my primary language.)

I?ve gotten some private nasty messages, which I?ve decided to ignore.
(One message came from an American who lives in BA. She used to live
in the Bay Area in California, and has been banned from Tango L.). If
you want to say I?m wrong, then you should publicly post and offer
your personal experience instead of complaining about my dance skills.
I took weekly, private lessons for 8 years and have been dancing for
AT for about 11 years. I wouldn?t think of coming here unless I was
confident of my skills. Dancing at Denver and Atlanta Tango Festivals
was a test. Dancing at small dance floors in New York was a test. I?m
not somebody who has 2 years of experience before coming to BA.

But if you don?t believe me, COME HERE FOR YOURSELF!

Reporting from Buenos Aires
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 20 11:21:41 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904181800w760188aeya9e4fcb7ae42272e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


It seems to me that Michael's report confirms what a lot of people have been saying - that the dancing, specifically navigation, has grown worse in BsAs over the past few years.  Michael reported about a specific milonga.  It could have been, as some have suggested, a particularly bad night.  He hasn't said anything problems with the other milongas.  I've also spoken with someone living there who recently come back to the US for a visit.  One problem he noted was that the women were less discriminating now than what they used to be.  He doesn't go dancing anymore, and apparently, neither do some of the other, better dancers.  

Given that quite a few people on this list have also acknowledge the recent problems in BsAs, I think attacking Michael for his dance skills was unnecessary.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 20 12:29:52 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <309191.71864.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com
? 
> 
> Given that quite a few people on this list have also acknowledge the recent 
> problems in BsAs, I think attacking Michael for his dance skills was 
> unnecessary.
> 

That might well be true but I'm fairly confident in saying that Michael 
is the first, first-time visitor to BsAs to?blame the Argentines for his
problems in the milongas. 

I was recently there for 6 weeks and am full of admiration for the way 
the Argentines are able to dance comfortably in crowded conditions.
It's what I'm seeking to emulate and I'm certainly not going to blame 
anyone else for the problems I encountered. Instead I took a lot of 
private lessons with Ana Maria Schapira.

Jack


      



From tango.society at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 12:58:16 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:58:16 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Reports from Buenos Aires: Navigation et al.
Message-ID: <cff24c340904200958l61914553l697757a8f6e2433c@mail.gmail.com>

Club Gricel has a long and narrow dance floor, the smallest width to
length ratio of any milonga dance floor in Buenos Aires that I know
of. The length of the floor can accommodate a lot of dancers in a
moving line of dance; however there is less mobility in the narrow
middle, so it is more likely that center-of-floor dancers will drift
into the perimeter. As far as I've seen, Michael is correct in saying
that, strictly speaking, there is only one line-of-dance in Bs As
milongas that moves counter-clockwise along the perimeter of the
floor. However, in contrast to what Michael has reported, I have never
seen a clockwise moving center area. In my experience the center also
generally moves more or less counter-clockwise, but with varying
degrees of mobility, including couples who are stationary for the most
part, and counter-clockwise progression may be less linear with
passing of other couples possible if necessary. One will occasionally
see some dancers moving clockwise or even in no particular direction.

Michael commented that there is a line on the floor at Lo de Celia
near the perimeter of the floor and, as I understood it, he suggested
this demarcated the line of dance. I have never thought this was a
traffic lane maker, nor that the porten~os needed it, especially in Lo
de Celia, where the line of dance is pretty well respected. As I
remember it, this line is not painted on the tile, but actually part
of the tile pattern. In any case, from my recollection, this line is
about 0.5 meters from the tables. The line demarcation is too narrow
for a line-of-dance progression, because in actually the progression
is not linear, but a progressive spiral. On a crowded floor it is
necessary to turn most of the time; the skill is to orient these turns
so that there is progression in a forward direction to keep up with
the slowly but surely moving forward progression of the line of dance.
Actually, in Bs As milongas, the line of dance generally progresses
more rapidly and smoothly under the same floor density as would a
typical progression at a US tango festival.

With respect to porten~os having poor navigation skills, it is true
that there are some who navigate poorly. In my experience milongas are
more crowded on weekends (Fri-Sat-Sun), in part because some porten~os
dance only or mostly on weekends, and collisions are more likely with
more inexperienced dancers on more crowded floors. However, a general
characteristic of porten~os who attend milongas regularly is that they
learn to navigate. Foreigners who go to Buenos Aires often encounter a
high floor density they have never experienced before. However, with
generally better navigational skills and a truly progressing line of
dance, navigation in Bs As milongas is typically easier than in US
tango festivals with the same floor density.

With respect to the decline in the quality of dancing in Buenos Aires
milongas, I believe that is true. There are several contributing
factors:
- Older dancers with a lot of experience are no longer dancing
- There are many porten~os leanring tango for the first time who are
now attending milongas
- More foreigners who have not learned the skills and codes of
navigation are attending milongas

Despite all of this, there is no better place to dance tango than in
the milongas of Buenos Aires.

I believe it is also correct to say that the quality of tango dancing
in the US has deteriorated over the last several years.

Ron

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 20 13:00:56 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:00:56 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <309191.71864.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<309191.71864.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W459B786E3A6106CBA724DBA9760@phx.gbl>


I thought Michael made it clear at least in a subsequent post that the problems he described were not ones that he experienced, but that he witnessed. It's difficult to speculate how he might have contributed to that.

     J


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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 20 13:08:10 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:08:10 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Reports from Buenos Aires: Navigation et al.
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340904200958l61914553l697757a8f6e2433c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340904200958l61914553l697757a8f6e2433c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W54A0E18F57588C559ED9BA9760@phx.gbl>


Ron, enjoyed your perspective. Please expand on last comment:

> I believe it is also correct to say that the quality of tango dancing
> in the US has deteriorated over the last several years.

>From my limited experience here in Portland and a couple of other West Coast areas, I think dance skill is continuing to improve. At the same time there is currently a high influx of new dancers, which unavoidably bring down the community average skill level until they get more experience.

But I'm interested in hearing why you think US tango quality has deteriorated.

           J



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From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 20 13:17:15 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <309191.71864.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <113108.59062.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> I was recently there for 6 weeks and am full of admiration
> for the way the Argentines are able to dance comfortably in crowded
> conditions. It's what I'm seeking to emulate and I'm
> certainly not going to blame anyone else for the problems I encountered. 

Your good experience doesn't preclude others from having different experiences, including Argentines.  As Michael pointed out, there were Argentines arguing with each other.  As I said before, MANY OTHERS have commented upon the worsening state of affairs, including Tom Stermitz, or perhaps none of them can navigate either.  The Argentines are not saints, not even in tango.  I'm looking forward to hearing more of Michael's experiences, even if it flies in the face of my own expectations.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon Apr 20 13:41:44 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:41:44 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
Message-ID: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>

My vacation is coming to an end. Instead of just dropping names of
milongas, I?m posting my review. Hopefully others will do the same.

I. Lo de Celia

The floor is square with a line that goes around the perimeter. The
table set up is                  Men

                                                Women
Women

                                                             Men

Couples are usually put in the back row. Florescent lights are over
the dance floor. Colored lights are over the tables which causes dark
spots and can make cabeceo difficult.

Floor gets crowded quickly so standing in one place is not advised.
One night, an Argentine pushed another Argentine to shut up and start
dancing.

2. El Arranque
I haven?t figured out the seating arrangement. Women are on the sides
but then there are other women in the same column as men. You have to
look around. To paraphrase the safety exercise on airlines "Your
closest partner may be behind you." Excellent lighting for cabeceo.
Floor is sloped so ochos can be a problem going downhill because the
woman will pick up speed with each pivot. Floor is rectangular but
almost passes for being a square. There are raffle drawings for
champagne and CDs.

3. Milonga de los Consagrados @ central region leonesa (This is the
same location for Mi Refugio and Nino Bien

The floor is rectangular and the lighting is good. Tables are
perpendicular to the floor. I was there one night. It looks like the
tables alternate between men and women. The vortex is a struggle
because the floor gets jammed at the ends.

4. Gricel
I?ve already written about.

5. Miscellaneous
DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
pattern seems to be
4-1-4-1.

6.Milonga hopping
I don?t see any value to going to different milongas during a short
stay. When you keep returning to the same milongas, people will
recognize you after a while. If you keep going to a new milonga every
night, you?ll be a stranger every night. It?s completely different
when you go with a partner versus going alone.

7: Identity
Not a single Argentine woman I danced with thought I was an Argentine
until they said something in Spanish and I said I?m not Argentine.

********************************************************************************************
Not related to tango
Bring a camera and walk throughout the city. There are free walking
tours (www.bafreetour.com) My friend, Gail from Florida, suggested I
buy a digital camera. I?m glad I finished.

Tomorrow is my last full day in the city. I fly home Wednesday,
leaving the house @4:30 PM for my 8:25 pm flight to Miami arriving
4:30 AM. After going through customs and immigration, my connecting
flight leaves at 8:40 for Washington, DC National Airport, arriving
11:05 AM. I should be home by 12:30 with my luggage and fond memories.

I didn?t come to BA to eat, but to dance.

I?ll post my summary tomorrow. I appreciate the public confirmation of
what I?m writing. I?m not making this stuff up.

And now a word about dancing. Two highly skilled dancers may not like
dancing with each other. While skill is a big part, so is passion and
musicality. Everybody has their own style. If somebody doesn?t like
dancing with me, it can be because of my skill level or they don?t
like my style. It?s the same about women. I melt with some women and
for others it?s a cold experience. Some women can dance milonga and
others have problems. I don?t what good it does to complain about
somebody?s dancing on the list. There will NEVER be universal
agreement on who is a good dancer.

I don?t remember writing anything negative about the dancing skill of
the women. My only complaint has been navigation.

Reporting from Buenos Aires
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC


I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango


From don at aymta.org  Mon Apr 20 15:58:29 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:58:29 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.573.1240157322.14849.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.573.1240157322.14849.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <49ECD3E5.7000300@aymta.org>

>
> Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
> To exchange money you may use banks, Casas de cambio ("Cambio", or ATM machines. 
> The ATM machine may charge a fee if you use cards from a different banck, it will not charge a fee if you use a branch of the bank that isued the card. (This is the same as at home).
> The fee charged sometimes is for "each transaction" even when you ask for your balance. I heard (I am not sure) the fee is anywhere from 2 to 8 dollars).
>   
I've never been charged a fee--in BsAs, Europe, Taiwan.  In my limited 
experience the US is the only place where banks charges  fees if you 
withdraw from another bank's ATM (which also charges a fee).  If your 
bank  charges Foreign Currency Transaction fees/Currency Exchange fees, 
find a different bank, at least for overseas travel.
> For transportation from the airport at Ezeiza you may go to the "Ezeiza TAxi" stand in the hall after you leave coustoms.  It is a Blue and white stand and it has a board listing the fare to different areas of the city. 
> If you use a porter for your luggage do not allow him to select the remis company as he most certainly will have a comission that will be charged to you. 
> The usual transportation fee from Ezeiza to most places in town is 80 to 100 pesos (28 dollars). This includes the toll (less than 10 pesos).
>   
Although slightly more expensive, I'd like to put in a pitch for Dante 
Proa?o <http://www.dantesairporttransfers.hazedaze.com/>.  We've used 
him every trip, to & from, makes arriving/departing more painless.

Don

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 20 17:16:17 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:16:17 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:41 AM
To: "Tango-L List" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

> 3. Milonga de los Consagrados @ central region leonesa (This is the
> same location for Mi Refugio and Nino Bien

And supposedly the place where the best-of-the-best porteneos are supposed 
to attend from the information a teacher told me.  One lady of my group 
having a bit of stage fright due to the intimidation of the place and thus 
not dancing very well, was told to "sit down" less than 1 minute into the 
1st dance.  Tough crowd. They did play salsa; jive as a break from tango 
too.

>
> 5. Miscellaneous
> DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
> tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
> pattern seems to be
> 4-1-4-1.


Interesting that you say that as I recall it being around 3-1-3-1 .  It  is 
around 6-1-6-1 in some places in Australia. 


From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Mon Apr 20 19:31:43 2009
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:31:43 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > 5. Miscellaneous
> > DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
> > tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
> > pattern seems to be
> > 4-1-4-1.
>

Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard either
2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:35:13 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:35:13 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <113108.59062.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <309191.71864.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<113108.59062.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904201635w1db9d13fuf5e56486c6fa539f@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe, just maybe, like everywhere and everyone, there is a bell curve here...
Are Argentines exempt because they are Argentine?? No, I really don't
think so...

So, 10% are useless no hopers that even with lessons can't dance...
Then 15% are beginners....
etc to 10% that are professional level and above.....

Is this possible?

Why bother with all the rest?

Really, they dance there more unless like teachers around the world,
dance daily....? So, on average, they will be better but it's still a
bell curve effect....


From larrynla at juno.com  Mon Apr 20 19:33:11 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:33:11 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5&#8207;
Message-ID: <20090420.163311.8292.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>

ARGENTINE DANCERS HAVING NAVIGATION PROBLEMS  Of course they have them. 
Argentines are people too. They make mistakes, come in all levels of 
skill, and so on. It's idiotic to go to BsAs and expect perfection.

LEVELS OF SKILL IN ARGENTINA  The average level of skill in Argentina 
is lower than in the rest of the world. Tango is a truly popular dance 
there once more. Consider that there are 116 milongas per week within 
the 10-mile diameter of BsAs the city (as opposed to the much larger 
Gran Buenos Aires). That means perhaps 10,000 dancers in that small 
area, and the number might be several times that.

This means lots of beginners or casual dancers who go to their local 
milonga just to be with friends and have fun, maybe meet somebody, not 
to have some grandly profound religious experience.

It also includes many long-time dancers, milongueros and milongueras, 
who've been going to milongas for decades who are more interested in 
the music or social get-togethers than in becoming very proficient. 
Experience does not equal skill.

DECREASING LEVEL OF SKILL  That might be true. It goes along with 
increasing levels of popularity, in BsAs or in the rest of the world. 
Which means that it's all the more important for teachers and friends 
to let newbies know how important are the basics of dancing: line of 
dance, compact figures, simple figures, feeling the music, appreciating 
the embrace.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



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From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:47:48 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:47:48 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904201647n1233bda0i41cb4fca1e53a23a@mail.gmail.com>

Fairly consistently in BA is the 2-1-2-1 approach.  Even at a 'nuevo'
milonga.  However, at the nuevo milongas, they add in a single tanda
of 'nuevo' music for 1 of the tango tandas every 2nd cycle if that is
1 cycle described...

La Viruta, same cylcle, but they will play cylces of 6 songs in each
tanda of music, best to know who you are dancing with then ;-)  Not
uncommon to not do the whole tanda there with one person, but still
considered a bit rude to leave early.

>> 5. Miscellaneous
>> DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
>> tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
>> pattern seems to be
>> 4-1-4-1.
>
>
> Interesting that you say that as I recall it being around 3-1-3-1 . ?It ?is
> around 6-1-6-1 in some places in Australia.
>

Well, I have never seen 6-1-6-1 in Australia, ever...  The worst I
have seen in Australia is an Italian 'Gent' that does not play
consistent size tanda's and there could be up to 7 in a single
tanda....

My worst experience was at this location..
7 Vals
1 Milonga
6 Vals
2 Tango
7 Vals....
and so on....

This made it very difficult to ask ladies to dance and not appear to
be a bastard when you get them up for Vals, then new lady for the
Milonga then.... etc....


From al at sgi.com  Mon Apr 20 20:17:42 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:17:42 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Shocked
In-Reply-To: <709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <709687.36288.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49ED10A6.8010305@sgi.com>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the night. 

Not to mention that if she didn't cross, it may well be because the cross
wasn't lead properly (or depending on your point of view, not-a-cross was
lead but not on purpose)...


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Apr 21 01:55:28 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:55:28 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #6: Social customs
Message-ID: <49ED5FD0.3070804@shahrukhmerchant.com>

> Several years ago, somebody wrote on the list that you shouldn?t take
> photos or videos at milongas because some people don?t want to be seen
> with partners they aren?t married to. I thought this was strange but
> then the Argentine culture is different from the American culture.

Yes, I've seen this claim as well, and it's really quite ridiculous. The 
chances that a cheating couple are more likely to be found out by virtue 
of a photo taken by someone who lives in another country (this claim was 
made pre-Facebook and photo-sharing sites ...) than by the gossip mill 
of the milongas in Buenos Aires is rather far-fetched.

But it is unquestionably annoying to go to a Milonga to dance and have 
flashes going off every few seconds. For a milonga with a lot of 
tourists, it is unavoidable since by definition it's a photo-op for the 
tourists.

> Why? The Argentines have behavior codes. One of them is not to dance
> with somebody else?s life partner. Men don?t use cabeceo with a woman
> sitting at a table with another man. If the Argentines think that two
> people are a couple, men won?t ask and women won?t accept an
> invitation.

Yes and no. What you are referring to is the traditional rule that is 
not as rigidly followed. A more contemporary version would go something 
like this:

- If it is a traditional Milonga (e.g., Lo de Celia), a couple coming in 
together and requesting a table together will usually be seated at the 
back along the wall and be out of cabeceo range anyway. A couple who 
want to dance with others will need to request some other seating 
arrangement that leaves them more accessible to cabeceo;

- If a man and a woman are sitting together and "gazing into each others 
eyes," or holding hands, or are obviously very much into each other, 
then regardless of how traditional the Milonga is, it would be 
inappropriate to ask the woman to dance, or try to, and you should 
certainly except a refusal (accompanied by an "are you clueless or 
what?" look) if you try. I would never ask a woman in this situation (in 
any country)--even if they were having an animated conversation, there 
is an implicit intimacy that would be rude to break.

- If a man and a woman are seated together (regardless of whether they 
are a couple), and WISH to dance with others, they really need to signal 
with their body language that they are available (especially the woman). 
This means perhaps seating with the chairs angled slightly away from 
each other, chatting briefly while still looking outwards, etc. The man 
needs to help the woman appear available in this case as well by 
disconnecting from her somewhat so others know it is OK to invite her. 
This won't happen as much in traditional milongas like Lo de Celia 
(other than with non-Argentine couples, where the Argentine men will be 
only too happy to break their own rules to dance with her once they 
figure out that she's available while hypocritically commenting on how 
ungallant the man is by dancing with other women and letting "his woman" 
dance with other men).

There are innumerable variations and ultimately it comes down to 
awareness and common sense. The jealousy factor is high in Argentina and 
neither one of a couple on a "Milonga date" will dance with others 
(close mutual friends excepted) EVEN IF THEY WANT TO, since they know 
there will be hell to pay later!!

Expect these rules to continue to loosen and become more ambiguous with 
each passing year ...

Shahrukh

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Apr 21 02:34:25 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:34:25 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
Message-ID: <49ED68F1.60905@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Trini de Pittsburgh says:

> a lot of people have been saying - that the dancing, specifically navigation, has grown worse in BsAs over the past few years.

That is absolutely my observation. Or maybe my tolerance to bad 
navigation has decreased so I notice it more, but I really don't think 
that that explains more than a small part of the problem.

This is highly correlated with:

- The presence of Tango tourists (including long-time Tango dancers 
visiting Argentina): Not that Argentines have navigation genes that the 
rest of the world doesn't (Michael seems to think the opposite, in fact) 
but they are more used to crowded floor conditions and I don't care how 
many "Milonguero Style" festivals you've been to but you've got to learn 
navigation in the field (New York doesn't count). (I am sure I was 
somewhat of a nuisance on the dance floor the first time I came to 
Buenos Aires as well until I "got it" and it's the rare dancer that 
"gets it" in a week, as it's a whole skill set that must be learned, and 
sometimes unlearned ....)

- The presence of Tango "hot-shots" (Argentines and otherwise). They use 
their "skill" to intimidate and shove their way through the crowd and 
take up more space than they should, by doing inappropriately big or 
high-velocity turns or steps.

- The Tango nuevo set. There is a small Argentine following of nuevo, 
but it's largely a Tango tourist phenomenon in Buenos Aires. To be 
clear: There are a few very good and very social dancers who dance nuevo 
and milonguero well and keep them apart or fuse them very judiciously 
(and know when there is the appropriate space for each style), but there 
are any number for whom a colgado or a linear boleo is "just another 
figure they learned (from a real Argentina maestro to boot)" to be done 
at equal frequency with any other figure regardless of how crowded the 
floor may be.

Shahrukh

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 21 04:35:34 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:35:34 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
	<bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl>

This was the case in a milonga in Sydney.  Maybe they did not like milonga 
pieces?  <shrug> Commonly the 4-1-4-1 would be used in Australia.  Thus I 
was very surprised to have encountered the 2-1-2-1 in BsAs.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Sorin Varzaru" <tango at bostonphotographs.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:31 AM
To: "Tango-L List" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

>
> Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard 
> either
> 2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended.
>
 


From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 07:50:33 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:50:33 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Reports from Buenos Aires: Navigation et al.
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W54A0E18F57588C559ED9BA9760@phx.gbl>
References: <cff24c340904200958l61914553l697757a8f6e2433c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU120-W54A0E18F57588C559ED9BA9760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cff24c340904210450s6ad076cdia6b910425d2df48f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ron, enjoyed your perspective. Please expand on last comment:

>> I believe it is also correct to say that the quality of tango dancing
>> in the US has deteriorated over the last several years.

> From my limited experience here in Portland and a couple of other West Coast
> areas, I think dance skill is continuing to improve. At the same time there
> is currently a high influx of new dancers, which unavoidably bring down the
> community average skill level until they get more experience.
>
> But I'm interested in hearing why you think US tango quality has
> deteriorated.
>

I believe the overall quality of dancing at milongas in the US has
decreased over the last several years for the following reasons:

- The number of people dancing tango has increased. Anytime there is
an increase in population size, with entry at the bottom skill level,
the average skill level decreases.
- As the average skill level decreases, there is also less motivation
to improve because there are more dance partners who are less
discriminating in who they dance with.
- I have heard in some communities there has been an increase rate of
exit of experienced dancers from the community. The reason given is
that the predominant style of tango has changed. This seems to apply
mostly for tango fantasia dancers who have not adapted to the rising
tide of nuevo.

Skill in dancing tango is indicated by balance, partner connection,
connection with the music, and navigation, not by the number of
figures you have memorized. Factors that have worked against acquiring
these skills that have been more prevalent in recent years have been
the following:

- As tango popularity has increased, the number of milongas has
increased. From the reports I've heard, although the number of people
dancing tango in many communities has increased, the number of
milongas has increased such that the average attendance at milongas
has decreased. This has resulted in less crowded floor conditions at
many milongas, thus decreasing the opportunities for learning
navigational skills under crowded conditions. For example, in Chicago
about 10 years ago there were 3 milongas per week and it was common to
have milongas with over 100 people. Now there are about a dozen
milongas per week in Chicago (down from about 20 per week a few years
ago), with milongas having more than 100 people being rare, and 30-50
being commonplace. (This is based on personal experience and reports
from Chicago dancers. Someone living in Chicago could perhaps refine
these numbers somewhat.)

- The increase in frequency of non-tango and tango fusion music at
milongas has disconnected tango movements from the music.

- Tango nuevo: The emphasis on learning steps and figures, associated
with the introduction of tango nuevo into the US, which offers new
movement possibilities, has led to more dancers walking through steps
disconnected with the music. The large space used by some of these
figures and the lack of configuration of these figures to the line of
dance has resulted in poorer definition of a line of dance, i.e.,
poorer navigation.

There may be parts of the US where there are other factors operating
to improve skill level, but this is what I have observed and learned
in discussion with others in several parts of the US.

Ron

From milonguera at comcast.net  Tue Apr 21 05:59:03 2009
From: milonguera at comcast.net (Cammie )
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:59:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D7C09528786E493A9FA98CECF98449BF@D4JXGX41>

From: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:41 AM
To: "Tango-L List" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

5. Miscellaneous
DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
pattern seems to be 4-1-4-1.

Sorin Varzaru replied:

"Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard
either
2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended."

At the milongas in the Denver/Boulder area we virtually always have 2-1-2-1
progressions of tandas.  It has been the same at the many festivals I have
attended, including the Denver, Portland, Atlanta and St. Louis festivals.
Cammie.


From jlrdouglas at mac.com  Mon Apr 20 12:03:50 2009
From: jlrdouglas at mac.com (Jessica Douglas)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:03:50 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DB2C9FAF-AC14-4EFC-88C5-9B3A15F9ED1C@mac.com>

Michael,

You've posted a lot of interesting observations here, and I've read  
them for a while without comment, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.
I am an American (originally Canadian) here in Buenos Aires with my  
boyfriend for 3 months.  We've been here a little over 2 months now.   
We are from San Francisco.  I've been dancing about 2.5 years.  This  
is my second time in Buenos Aires.  My Spanish was almost nonexistent  
when we got here, but we've had a private tutor and now I can hold  
halting stumbling conversations with people if they speak slowly.

Let's see if I can do this in a non-confrontational manner :)

1. Michael's going to milongas within walking distance of his house  
because (I believe) he doesn't want to deal with cabs/busses etc late  
at night.  Michael, if you have even 4 words of Spanish, take a cab to  
another Milonga!
I have had all sorts of scare nonsense told to me mostly by locals who  
seem downright petrified of the cabs in this town...about kidnapping,  
rape, theft etc....  but I have taken cabs every day for the last 2  
months, as well as last year.  I am a small woman and I take cabs  
alone and with my boyfriend (who has less Spanish than me)  The worst  
thing that has happened to either myself or my partner is that we have  
been passed off a counterfeit 10 pesos and that was last year.
I have had so many enjoyable cab rides, cabbies like to talk to me  
about English, about Buenos Aires, about the US, about the state of  
women drivers, about their favorite tango songs... they have been  
almost 100% polite and friendly, though most can't speak English and  
have some pretty funny ideas about our language and our culture.

The cabs are *plentiful*.  More than New York.  The only place we have  
had to phone for a cab is from Sunderland, but even there, last week  
we walked 2 blocks to a busier street and there were cabs there.   
Everywhere in this city at every time of night (3, 4, 5 am) there are  
tons of cabs, and they wait outside most of the popular milongas for  
patrons leaving.
Get out and explore!
Saying you're only going to milongas in walking distance does not, I  
think, give you the ability to really see the variety, nor to  
generalize your experiences.  It's like going to the restaurants only  
in the mission district in San francisco and assuming that 90% of all  
restaurants in SF are mexican.

Oh: One tip: Cab Drivers only pick up people on the right side of the  
road.  They can have their red "libre" light on but pass you by if  
you're on the left side.  I don't know why, but you'll look like a  
tourist if you try to hail one on the left.  Also, for added security,  
take "Radio cabs" (most are).  They are licenced and very safe.

(yes, we have also tried the subway etc, it just takes longer, is hot,  
sweaty and I'm a lot more likely to have my purse stolen or pick up a  
cold from the person jammed up against me in the subway car than in  
the back of the cab).

2. "The Argentines have behavior codes. One of them is not to dance  
with somebody else?s life partner. Men don?t use cabeceo with a woman  
sitting at a table with another man"
I have to argue with this from personal experience. While I don't  
doubt for a second that this has been true in the past and still is in  
many places, also the issue about taking pictures due to wives and  
lovers I'm sure is sometimes the case.  But over the last 2 months I  
have gone from mostly getting dances from tourists to now mostly  
getting dances from local Argentine men.  And though this weekend at  
Sunderland a couple of them did ask me if that was my boyfriend or  
husband (boyfriend) and then comment that he is a lucky man and how  
nice it is that he is not jealous... this did not stop them from  
cabaceo'ing me while it was just me and him at the table.
True, its easier to get a cabaceo from a local man if we have a woman  
friend or another couple at the table.  But I do still get dances, and  
they are definitely local.

It just doesn't make sense that "Argentine men won't dance with  
somebody else's life partner" here.  What if the man is someone's life  
partner?  This is often the case, these are not just roving bands of  
unmarried inveterate milonguero bachelors, though they do exist.  Many  
are married themselves, and I have seen their wives dancing with other  
men too.  Also I can't believe that marrying here commits one, as a  
woman, to a lifetime confined to dancing tango with only your husband  
forever.  That just doesn't seem likely, and I have seen contrary  
evidence at every milonga.

3. I have to disagree that Argentines assume you are Argentinean  
unless told otherwise.  I think that no matter how we try, most likely  
people can tell we are not local, even before we open our mouth.   
Clearly the first word indicates an accent and non-local.  However the  
best compliment I had was from a cabbie who thought I was Italian!  My  
accent must not be that horrific :)  Face it, we look like tourists by  
a thousand little habits, other than speaking English.

4. Tenedor Libre buffet? OK, I could go on forever about the food (I  
am a foodie, and spoiled by the diversity of San Francisco and I have  
overall found the food very disappointing here) BUT to go to a buffet  
here and not try the thousands of restaurants seems downright  
criminal!  Michael, grab a cab out to Palermo Hollywood.  Look up some  
recommendations, I'd be glad to provide some.  Get a good steak and  
drink a bottle of wine with your dinner!  Explore the culinary  
options.  They aren't vast, but some do taste mighty good.  One good  
foodie ex-pat living here has a blog: http://www.saltshaker.net/   
which has great recommendations.  Also, this site has good  
recommendations for options:http://argentinastravel.com/activities/restaurants/ 
   And this is the local "zagat" type thing that has been very very  
handy indeed: http://guiaoleo.com.ar/

5. Finally, please forgive me if this is way off the mark, but reading  
your posts I get a sense of urgency and intensity that seems so very  
very American (I mean this neither as a compliment nor an insult, just  
a cultural observation).  I have found that the easiest way to be  
pegged as a tourist here is to be in a hurry, ever, for anything.   
Cooks here get an order in an empty kitchen and take their time before  
filling it.  Line waiting in banks and grocery stores is the national  
pasttime.  You will never be brought your bill without asking for it  
in a restaurant.  Even notoriously urgent cabbies (when driving) will  
not hurry you out of the cab.  People here are relaxed about the  
time.  Children stay up til 1 or 2 am with their families, hanging out  
on the stoop.  If they're tired they'll sleep... so many things here  
are done the opposite way from the American intense, focused, hurried  
way we are often used to.
My recommendation?  Try to relax and let Argentina into your soul at  
its own pace.  You and I will not understand an entire culture in a  
week or a month, so stop trying.  Observe and report, yes, but  
whatever you think now, you will probably later hold a different  
impression once you have more data... so just relax, have a glass of  
wine, and listen to the music.

May your travels here continue to be enjoyable, and the dancing divine.
Jessica.




On Apr 20, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

>
> It seems to me that Michael's report confirms what a lot of people  
> have been saying - that the dancing, specifically navigation, has  
> grown worse in BsAs over the past few years.  Michael reported about  
> a specific milonga.  It could have been, as some have suggested, a  
> particularly bad night.  He hasn't said anything problems with the  
> other milongas.  I've also spoken with someone living there who  
> recently come back to the US for a visit.  One problem he noted was  
> that the women were less discriminating now than what they used to  
> be.  He doesn't go dancing anymore, and apparently, neither do some  
> of the other, better dancers.
>
> Given that quite a few people on this list have also acknowledge the  
> recent problems in BsAs, I think attacking Michael for his dance  
> skills was unnecessary.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Apr 21 09:27:46 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:27:46 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #8: Last dispatch
Message-ID: <13176a380904210627k3778909i5f53620b4376ce18@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like yesterday I arrived at BA?s airport to begin my trip to the
origin of tango. I?ve gone to a milonga every day; one day going to
TWO milongas.

Soon I?ll be in the States where the milongas are NOTHING like the
traditional milongas here. The room will have less light than a
sunrise; the entrada will be $10 DOLLARS instead of $10 PESOS, and
there won?t be any cabeceo.

If you?re serious about tango, come here and experience it for
yourself. I recommend coming alone or in a very small group. You?re
not going to learn much riding around town in a bus, hopping on and
off to take photos. If you want to dance with the Argentines, don?t go
to tourist milongas. I?m not sure anything can prepare you for the
milonga culture. Leave complicated figures at home, especially high
boleos.

Daniel Trenner said at Tango Locura in Montreal years ago "When you
come to the milonga, be prepared to dance." I modify that to "When you
come to BA, know how to dance." You?ll adapt to the Argentine style.

Learn some Spanish to learn the culture. I bought a painted sign at
the San Telmo market last Sunday. The message is worth much more than
the $35 pesos ($9.50 US) I paid:

No Sue?es tu vida
Vive tus sue?os

Don?t dream your life
Live your dreams

Reporting from Buenos Aires for the last time

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
I AM dancing Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 21 10:29:35 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:29:35 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Nuevo: Concepts and Musicality
Message-ID: <BLU119-W22DEC6D6622508FB66C7BE91770@phx.gbl>


Such statements as the following:

>> - Tango nuevo: The emphasis on learning steps and figures, associated 
>> with the introduction of tango nuevo into the US, which offers new
>> movement possibilities, has led to more dancers walking through steps
>> disconnected with the music.

continue to appear on Tango-L and seem to reveal a continued misunderstanding of nuevo and a confusion 
between nuevo and plain old bad dancing.  Although many on the list get it, I think that a few comments 
regarding nuevo are appropriate. 

1. Nuevo tango is not about figures any more than "traditional milonguero" style is.  It is about concepts 
of energy, momentum, continuity of motion, flow and connection that are in addition to the "traditional" 
concepts.  I now dance primarily nuevo and yet at least 75% of the time do so in close embrace on "my floor 
tile" and with no figures of over a single step except, perhaps, an ocho cortada or two. 

2. Nuevo tango is not about ignoring the music.  It simply adds movement tools to the arsenal that I have to 
express the music.  If I am dancing to Biagi, "just walking" provides all the tools I need.  If the DJ puts 
on a later Pugliese, I can draw from the addtional movements provided by Nuevo to deal effectively with the 
more dramatic style of the music.  And if a non-tango piece is played, I don't need to grump off the floor. 

3.  Nuevo tango does not require large movements or space.  E.g. a volcada or colgada can be easily danced 
on "your floor tile" in a close embrace. Boleos and ganchos (nothing new here) can be kept low and slow.  
Soltadas can be done in less space than an ocho cortada.  Etc. 

As others have said before, it would truly help discourse if all styles, danced well, were accorded equal 
respect, and all styles, danced poorly, were accorded equal disdain. Bad navigation and disrespect for the 
floor are not the exclusive domain of those who choose to add the creative possibilities of nuevo into their 
dance. 


Thank you
D. David Thorn

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From Crrtango at aol.com  Tue Apr 21 11:24:09 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:24:09 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] "Creative Possibilities"
Message-ID: <c34.55214960.371f3f19@aol.com>

"Bad navigation and disrespect for the floor are not the exclusive domain 
of those who choose to add the creative possibilities of nuevo into their 
dance."

Not the exclusive domain, no, but definitely a characteristic.   Most nuevo 
dancers seem unaware of the rest of the room. Adding the so called 
"creative possibilities" of nuevo at the expense of the overall flow and movement of 
the dance floor, especially if others are dancing in more traditional close 
embrace, is one of the hallmarks of nuevo, even among the better 
practitioners of it.   One of the best developments to come along in tango is the 
proliferation of "alternative" milongas.   Now at least we have a choice of the 
kind of crowd we want to dance with.
cheers,
Charles


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 
2 easy steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221621490x1201450102/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D66
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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 21 11:49:26 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:49:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Creative Possibilities"
In-Reply-To: <c34.55214960.371f3f19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <776414.55057.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Crrtango at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Not the exclusive domain, no, but definitely a
> characteristic.   Most nuevo 
> dancers seem unaware of the rest of the room. 


I have been thinking about this a bit.  I notice that
some of my old friends who have always danced
milonguero style are now taking up/experimenting with
nuevo.  To a man, they all emulate Fabian and Chicho
in that they watch feet, looking down at the floor
instead of out on the pista.  These particular leaders
are careful not to annoy the other dancers when I am
watching, but could that be part of the problem with
less experienced leaders?   That they forget their
responsibilities to the rest of the dancers because
they are so raptly engaged in the foot and leg play ? 
I agree with the gentleman who wrote about nuevo done
in close embrace.  I have often danced that way with a
certain East Coast teacher and love the creativity,
but he is always aware of the floor conditions, of
course.






      

From don at aymta.org  Tue Apr 21 12:51:32 2009
From: don at aymta.org (Don Klein)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:51:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1011.1239640000.17115.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1011.1239640000.17115.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <49EDF994.7070701@aymta.org>

Jessica Douglas wrote:

> Oh: One tip: Cab Drivers only pick up people on the right side of the  
> road.  They can have their red "libre" light on but pass you by if  
> you're on the left side.  I don't know why, but you'll look like a  
> tourist if you try to hail one on the left.
It's the law.  Collectivos and Taxis can only allow people to enter/exit from the passenger side so no one steps into oncoming traffic.  Often the left rear door is locked to prevent exiting.

>  I could go on forever about the food (I  
> am a foodie, and spoiled by the diversity of San Francisco and I have  
> overall found the food very disappointing here)
Disappointing, si.  If you're a heavy meat eater there are the parrillas, but almost every other restaurante seems a heritage from the Neapolitan immigration: pizza, pasta, although las ensaladas are better than those in the midwest US.  Try to find a restaurante tipico (huminta, talmales, &c -- although there are huminta empanadas) or Spanish influenced cuisine.  But the helado makes one give up on US ice cream; can't decide between French, Italian, Mexican, BsAs: would need them all at the same time.  We found a Chinese vegetarian buffet reminiscent of those in Taiwan on Suipacha up a block from Lavalle which became our favorite lunch-time place (but bu hong cha).  (Question:  I was pronouncing it Lavazheh, but a Porteno said it was Lavayyeh because of the French origin, and then back home I'm told by Jacquie [not to be called Zhaki which "reminds me of my mom calling me "Zhacqueliiiin" when I was in trouble"] says all the Portenos she knows say Lavazheh).  Wish I had known of http://www.saltshaker.net/, but I do not next year.

Don
 




From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 21 13:08:42 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:08:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
In-Reply-To: <DB2C9FAF-AC14-4EFC-88C5-9B3A15F9ED1C@mac.com>
References: <855599.5297.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<DB2C9FAF-AC14-4EFC-88C5-9B3A15F9ED1C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W760652E83B29235870FFEA9770@phx.gbl>


I can certainly confirm Jessica's comments about cabs. They are inexpensive, don't expect tips, certainly not large ones, they are everywhere at all hours, and regardless of the horror stories I too have heard, I never had any problems except once getting passed a counterfeit bill. In 3 trips to BsAs, I never called for one, and I never had to wait long to catch one, even at 4am.

     J
 


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From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Apr 21 16:23:08 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:23:08 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Head Tilt
Message-ID: <20090421.132308.20749.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Osvaldo Zotto and Lorena Ercimoda taught here in L.A. a few years ago. 
In one class after presenting a pattern he would have us practice it 
for a minute or so to music.  And he and she would go around to various 
couples and point out mistakes.  One was tilting our heads.  Osvaldo 
corrected the men by lifting our chins with his fingers, and pointing 
at his eyes and looking down to indicate that it's our eyes which 
should tilt, not our heads.

Yet here he is making the same mistake.  It's only a slight tilt, but 
watch after about 40 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3zet-EKeo8

Most of the tango nuevo performers do this, except perhaps Gustavo
Naveira.  But so do most milongueros.  Here are just a few of
a couple dozen I found who do this, starting with Puppy Castello.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OxyYHZTcUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKV_34J5Ay4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSMtZzTwWI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucLFoUHcp-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCuObEUlmM

Who does NOT do this?  Professional dancers who have trained from 
childhood.  (This does not include the Zotto brothers, who learned 
tango in milongas, though some of their rough edges were likely ironed 
out when they hooked up with women who did have that training.)  They 
look down only rarely and then only for dramatic effect.

They know even a slight head tilt can make their shoulders hunch and 
that plus the tilt looks bad.  It also shifts their body center forward 
and makes it harder to dance well. Plus, they are doing choreographed 
performances that they have practiced dozens of times and performed 
hundreds of times.  They KNOW to the split second where their and their 
partner's feet are, because they received painful bruises and cuts when 
they didn't.

All of this is leading up to this question: How do we learn not to tilt 
our heads?  And: Do we need to look down?  If so: When?  And if not, 
How do we learn not to?

Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
http://ShapechangerTales.com 

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From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 17:39:47 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:39:47 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
	<bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A5EB30BB-3F93-454B-A23D-761E7A4B8F6A@gmail.com>

So not Australia, but 1 milonga? Which? As I have never cone across it  
ever...

Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...

On 21/04/2009, at 6:35 PM, "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis at hotmail.com>  
wrote:

> This was the case in a milonga in Sydney.  Maybe they did not like  
> milonga
> pieces?  <shrug> Commonly the 4-1-4-1 would be used in Australia.   
> Thus I
> was very surprised to have encountered the 2-1-2-1 in BsAs.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Sorin Varzaru" <tango at bostonphotographs.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:31 AM
> To: "Tango-L List" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
>
>>
>> Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard
>> either
>> 2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 21 17:41:08 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Head Tilt
In-Reply-To: <20090421.132308.20749.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <395582.34531.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 4/21/09, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:

> All of this is leading up to this question: How do we learn
> not to tilt our heads?  And: Do we need to look down?  If so: When? 
> And if not, How do we learn not to?

My Alexander Technique teacher has been very helpful with this.  She teaches us that the head should be free as it sits on top of the neck, sort of like a bobblehead doll.  The problem for most is that they cannot separate the movement of the head from the movement of the neck.  

The bones that the skull sits on are curved to allow the head to glide forward and backwards. If you finger the back of your neck upwards until find where the skull sits on top of the neck, you'll realize how far up the skull sits and where it moves from.  The problem is that many people engage too many neck muscles when trying to just tilt their head. If people relax their neck, they can move their head quite freely.

To help people get the feeling of this, she uses both hands, placing her thumbs on either side of the chin and the tips of her other fingers lightly behind the ears.  She then simply glides the head back & forth and then side-to-side.  She does the moving of the head while the student concentrates on relaxing the neck muscles.  The feeling of having a free head is so clear, that it's actually pretty easy to correct oneself later.  I am able to help student myself using this same technique.

So, it's not the tilting itself that's the problem.  It's HOW one tilts the head.

Trini de Pittsburgh






      

From tanguero at tanguero.com  Tue Apr 21 18:26:39 2009
From: tanguero at tanguero.com (Tanguero)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:26:39 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco
Message-ID: <EBCC6A5C500A4B219E0D16828829AFD5@loreenarbus.local>

I'm desperate to know where to go - - any advice that can be offered (from now through Tues., 4/28) would be greatly appreciated.  Many thanks and

Best,

Loreen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tanguero 
  To: tango-l at mit.edu 
  Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:43 PM
  Subject: Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco


  Dear Bay Area Folks:

   

  What do you suggest as the best, most well-attended, gender-balanced places for Tango (Milongas!) from Mon., 4/20 through Tues., 4/28?

   

  Best regards,

   

  Loreen

   

  E-mail: tanguero at tanguero.com

  Website: www.tanguero.com

From george at inscenes.com  Tue Apr 21 21:57:21 2009
From: george at inscenes.com (george@inscenes.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 01:57:21 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco
Message-ID: <W6511111287194431240365441@webmail16>

Here's a list of some Tango milongas with photos in the San Francisco Bay area:
www.inscenes.com

Just click on Tango in the left column. 
Have fun!
-----Original Message-----
From: Tanguero [mailto:tanguero at tanguero.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 06:26 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco

I'm desperate to know where to go - - any advice that can be offered (from now through Tues., 4/28) would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks and Best, Loreen ----- Original Message ----- From: Tanguero To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:43 PM Subject: Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco Dear Bay Area Folks: What do you suggest as the best, most well-attended, gender-balanced places for Tango (Milongas!) from Mon., 4/20 through Tues., 4/28? Best regards, Loreen E-mail: tanguero at tanguero.com Website: www.tanguero.com _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

From larrynla at juno.com  Wed Apr 22 09:34:30 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:34:30 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Problems with Tango Nuevo
Message-ID: <20090422.063430.20301.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>

I have to agree somewhat with those who condemn "tango nuevo" for some 
of the problems we see often on the dance floor.

This may sound surprising to some of you who have read my defenses of 
tango nuevo.  I consider myself a tango nuevo dancer. I've studied its 
basis and its movements - a word I use rather than figures. Most 
teachers of tango nuevo, and many other teachers besides, don't often 
teach complex combinations of movements any more. And I've melded the 
lessons from tango nuevo into my own dancing.

There are two problems with tango nuevo.  One part is its teachers, who 
usually spend so much time getting their students to master the basic 
movements that they never even mention the skills needed to fit those 
movements into the flow of the dance.  The other is its students, who 
are usually young and so often don't understand the social rather than 
showy nature of most tango dancing.  Also, being young and often quite 
athletic physically they quickly manage to master the basic movements, 
leading them to think that once they've mastered the basic movement 
that they're done when in truth they are only half-done.

This combination of teacher and student failure at teaching and 
learning the social side of tango has nothing to do with tango nuevo 
per se.  I and I'd bet you have seen this kind of failure in tango way 
before there was tango nuevo.  In fact, if you've been long involved in 
other kinds of dance, I'd bet you have seen it in other kinds of dance.  
I saw it in swing in the early 60s, and in disco in the late 60s and 
early 70s.  When I got involved in salsa in the early 1980s I saw it, 
where the mambo enthusiasts (stepping on the 2) blamed all sorts of 
ills on salsa enthusiasts (stepping on the 1).

Some people have blamed the problems caused by tango nuevo dancers on 
the movements we do.  That shows a basic ignorance of tango nuevo.  
Tango nuevo introduced NO new movements.  Not one.  Every one was 
invented by someone decades before.  What tango nuevo did was introduce 
new VARIATIONS of older techniques.

The colgada is a variation of a figure sometimes called the stork, 
where the woman is halted with her weight on one foot and the man then 
walks around her.  If he halts her and leads her into an extreme 
forward lean (a volcada)  before walk around her some call this the 
calesita.  If he leads her into a backward lean this is the colgada.  
Same movement, three variations.

The colgada is often associated with tango nuevo, because many of it 
teacher teach an extreme show-tango version of it.  The woman (and 
counter-balancing man) lean far back away from each other.  She also 
extends her free foot far behind her.  Here are examples from Fabian 
Salas and Carolina del Rivera.  But the colgada can be a gentle lean 
with the woman's free foot near her standing foot.  This is shown in 
the second video, where it is taught by Oscar Casas (and called 
Colgadas Milongueras).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0E7rCcBmjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvHdD7-qsaA

Again we come to my earliest point - much of the problems caused by 
tango nuevo is due to some of its teachers.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://ShapechangerTales.com



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From alex at tangofuego.us  Wed Apr 22 13:27:10 2009
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex Long)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:27:10 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango (Milongas!) in San Francisco
Message-ID: <007901c9c36f$94fa0810$beee1830$@us>

For Loreen...

In addition to George's www.inscenes.com ...

>From very near the dead center of the Texas Hill Country, I was able to find
these links re: Bay Area Tango/Milongas, utilizing the miracle we call
Google:

http://plamilon1.tripod.com/index.htm#LMTAL

http://www.bayareatango.org/calendar_sorted

http://www.virtuar.com/tango/where.htm

(I've heard El Valenciano is a good one, and also that the Milonga @ Club
Verdi has re-started...)

And lastly,

http://tangomango.org/index.php?show=San_Francisco,CA+Alameda,CA+San_Mateo,C
A+Santa_Clara,CA&hide=Contra_Costa,CA+Marin,CA+Santa_Cruz,CA+Monterey,CA

Now as far as "the best" or the most "gender balanced" milongas, I can't
offer anything there, but would guess that gender balance is a crap shoot on
any given night...anywhere in the world...

As far as "the best", that would obviously depend on what you are looking
for in terms of music and general 'level' of dancers. I would recommend that
you contact a few of the local teachers for their input...Ney Melo/Jennifer
Bratt... Christopher Nassopoulos y Caroline Peattie...Christy Cote...Homer &
Cristina...

Google works wonders...

Best of luck and have fun...

Alex
www.alextangofuego.blogspot.com



From David.Burnett at cba.com.au  Wed Apr 22 23:05:58 2009
From: David.Burnett at cba.com.au (Burnett, David)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:05:58 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <A5EB30BB-3F93-454B-A23D-761E7A4B8F6A@gmail.com>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
	<bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl>
	<A5EB30BB-3F93-454B-A23D-761E7A4B8F6A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C598E2B637CFA4F92B46D74A6E50FC98D50FD09AC@VAUNSW136.au.cbainet.com>

Not a pattern I have ever seen in Sydney either - but there is one Milonga that does use 'guest DJs' who may not have the experience to know that there is an expected pattern. As I remember, when I was in BsAs 2 years ago the city council had just declared that the 2-1-2-1 pattern was part of what defined a Milonga.

db

-----Original Message-----

So not Australia, but 1 milonga? Which? As I have never cone across it  
ever...

Sent from my iPhone, from somewhere...

On 21/04/2009, at 6:35 PM, "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis at hotmail.com>  
wrote:

> This was the case in a milonga in Sydney.  Maybe they did not like  
> milonga
> pieces?  <shrug> Commonly the 4-1-4-1 would be used in Australia.   
> Thus I
> was very surprised to have encountered the 2-1-2-1 in BsAs.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Sorin Varzaru" <tango at bostonphotographs.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:31 AM
> To: "Tango-L List" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
>
>>
>> Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard
>> either
>> 2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
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From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Wed Apr 22 22:19:30 2009
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:19:30 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel
Message-ID: <49EFD032.5020300@lavidacondeby.com>



I was in Gricel the night Michael was there.  It was crowded.  This is a 
milonga well attended by locals and by regulars.  It is rare to see 
people who normally do not come to this milonga.  While some of us may 
not come every week, we know each other.

There is navigation on this floor.  Perhaps at times it may not be the 
best but it is there.  This is Buenos Aires at its best.  A tightly 
packed floor of dancers with hardly any room to move.  There are several 
"lines of dance" and if you dance here regularly you know where to find 
them.  If you are new to Buenos Aires and our milongas, I am sure it 
would seem like chaos.  The center of the floor is for newbies.  The 
outside is for more experienced dancers, the rest dance in the middle.  
When the floor is very crowded it sometimes seems impossible, but 
somehow the dancers always seem to find their way.  The best dancers 
wait until the floor clears.  They rarely dance before this. Only if a 
favorite dancer is going to leave or a favorite tanda is played.

There were no fights at Gricel.  I have no idea what he was talking 
about.  In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual 
fight and that was in Ni?o Bien when a tourist got really drunk and 
started throwing chairs.  Sometimes men purposely bump into each other 
and fake a disgruntled attitude,  They always smile and hug afterwards.  
Even when they do bump into each other and there are "some faces" and 
maybe an exchange of words there is never a "fight".  Perhaps Michael's 
lack of the language is the reason he thought the men were fighting.  I 
have no idea how he could come to this conclusion.  Fight in my opinion 
would mean loud yelling and fists and there was nothing like this at 
all. Nothing.

For the record, Michael actually came to my table and asked me to 
dance.  So much for his recognizing me and doing the cabaceo.  He was 
shocked when I turned him down. He was actually dazed when I had to say 
no twice to him. He would not give up.  I don't accept dances at the 
table from strangers.  From my friends who know I want to dance with 
them yes.

 Of course Argentine women danced with him, where is he? It does not 
mean he is a good dancer, it only means he danced with Argentine women. 
We have lots of new people in our milongas and they will dance with 
foreigners.  It is not like the old days or even when I first came 
here.  People are interested in dancing with new people.  Not all of us, 
but some of us.  It depends on the milonga.

It does not matter how many years one has danced.  There are plenty of 
people here who have danced for 40 years that do not dance well.  There 
are others who have danced for less than 5 who dance very nicely.  I do 
think though it is very arrogant for someone to come here and judge the 
milongas based on North American criteria. I think it is also sad that 
he only went to a few milongas rather than to go others outside his 
barrio.  I don't know what he was so afraid of.  He was more at risk 
walking in his barrio late at night than taking a taxi.  The worst thing 
that could have happened is that he would have been overcharged by 5 
pesos - a whole whopping $1.35 USD. 

To come here and not experience the culture - the food - pizza, 
empanadas, parilla, and the many other things that Buenos Aires has to 
offer is sort of sad.  This is a city that has so much.  Buenos Aires is 
tango.  When people say they think that North Americans dance better 
than Argentines?  What your little feet are pointing better?  You have 
more figures?  The one thing you do not have is that you do not 
understand the music, the soul of tango.  North Americans, generally 
speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically they dance 
without soul. 

Perhaps if Michael had come to Gricel and tried to enjoy himself instead 
of judging us on his North American values, he would have had a better time.





From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 23 11:43:26 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:43:26 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
Message-ID: <BAY105-W20C7FC0A4687956E207B0897750@phx.gbl>


Deby says :  "There were no fights at Gricel. I have no idea what he was talking about. In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual fight and that was in Ni?o Bien when a tourist got really drunk and started throwing chairs. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake a disgruntled attitude, They always smile and hug afterwards."
 
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people not familiar with our culture can make all sort of misjudgments when visiting Argentina.
 
My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life.  
 
There are perfect lines of flow in every milonga, you have to recognize them.  It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. 
 
If you are unable to remain in the peripheral line, this is a sign that you are not used to dancing in very crowded floors. YOu try to start dancing in the periphery but soon you find yourself dancing-straggling in the center again and again.
 
When we interact with each other we do it with much more "physically expressive force" than in other latitudes of the world, some visitors may think that we are arguing when in actuality we are just having an interesting, vivacious conversation.
 
To joke is one of our national pastimes. We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :)) 
 
As to what Trini says, "the standards of dancing have decreased in Buenos Aires", I think that this is a change in perception caused by the foreign dancer being more mature (dancing wise) now than a few years back. 
 
The quality of dancing has always been the same.  
 
Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.
 
Best regards, Sergio

 
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From keith at totango.net  Thu Apr 23 13:47:06 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:47:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Para Los Ninos Tango Charity
Message-ID: <61803.64.229.161.31.1240508826.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

John and Cheryl Lowry and friends in Brisbane, Australia began this
charity work 9 years ago. They raise money in the tango world to make life
better for homeless children in Buenos Aires.

To me, it's such a great idea: have a milonga once a year in your city
donating the proceeds to this cause and give something back and for
Argentina's future. And then go visit the kids they support on your next
trip to Argentina and share what you know with them as well in person.

Really, I'd like you to hear John and Cheryl speak about it in their own
voices; so I've made a 12 minute podcast in which they tell the story and
give the picture.

http://ToTANGO.net




From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Apr 23 13:57:24 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:57:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Gricel
Message-ID: <42F84F9EF66D45B5A593BB1A593F00D3@michaelditkoff>

>I was at Gricel Thursday April 16. I'm surprised it took Deby one week to 
>respond if she was actually there April 16. I danced at Lo de Celia which 
>is also very crowded with navigation problems. At Gricel, I stayed on the 
>outside. Just about everytime I did a molinete, there was somebody 
>different behind me, which means that men were jumping in and out of the 
>line of dance.
>
> I never wrote there was a fight at Gricel. I said two Argentines ARGUED. 
> It didn't look good natured from the look of the partner of one of the 
> men. She look absolutely embarrassed.
>
> Wrong, Deby. I didn't come to your table and ask you to dance. I don't 
> know who went to your table, but it certainly wasn't me! I don't go to any 
> woman's table and ask her to dance. I exclusively used cabeceo my entire 
> stay.
>
> My ONLY comment about the Argentines was on their navigation skills and 
> nothing else.
>
> The Argentines thought I was Argentine until I told them I wasn't. They 
> spoke to me in Spanish and I told them in Spanish I was a NorthAmerican 
> and that Spanish
> isn't my primary language.
>
> I wasn't afraid to go out of my barrio. I didn't want to go outside. 
> Experience has proven that when the women see me at milongas in the 
> barrio, they are more likely to accept my invitation. I don't see any 
> reason to go to a lot of milongas and be a stranger at each one. At my 
> last milonga, El Arranque, I danced eight tandas, which is a  lot. I 
> danced two REPEAT tandas with two women. One of them waved to me when I 
> walked in to let me know she was there.
>
> Deby's attitude is similar to other people who didn't like my postings. 
> Instead of offering corrections, like Shakruh on a woman declining an 
> invitation, they just launch into ad hominen attacks in public and private 
> emails.
>
> And Deby, I didn't have any trouble connecting with the women who wanted 
> to connect with me. I've lost count because it doesn't matter. It's not a 
> competition.
>
> Michael
> I danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:19 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel
> I was in Gricel the night Michael was there.  It was crowded.  This is a
> milonga well attended by locals and by regulars.  It is rare to see
> people who normally do not come to this milonga.  While some of us may
> not come every week, we know each other.
>
> There is navigation on this floor.  Perhaps at times it may not be the
> best but it is there.  This is Buenos Aires at its best.  A tightly
> packed floor of dancers with hardly any room to move.  There are several
> "lines of dance" and if you dance here regularly you know where to find
> them.  If you are new to Buenos Aires and our milongas, I am sure it
> would seem like chaos.  The center of the floor is for newbies.  The
> outside is for more experienced dancers, the rest dance in the middle.
> When the floor is very crowded it sometimes seems impossible, but
> somehow the dancers always seem to find their way.
> There were no fights at Gricel.  Sometimes men purposely bump into each 
> other
> and fake a disgruntled attitude,  They always smile and hug afterwards.
> Even when they do bump into each other and there are "some faces" and
> maybe an exchange of words there is never a "fight".
> For the record, Michael actually came to my table and asked me to
> dance.  So much for his recognizing me and doing the cabaceo.  He was
> shocked when I turned him down. I don't accept dances at the
> table from strangers.  From my friends who know I want to dance with
> them yes.
>  The one thing you do not have is that you do not  understand the music, 
> the soul of tango.  North Americans, generally
> speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically they dance 
> without soul.
>
> Perhaps if Michael had come to Gricel and tried to enjoy himself instead
> of judging us on his North American values, he would have had a better 
> time. 


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Thu Apr 23 14:21:51 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:21:51 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
Message-ID: <49F0B1BF.8020202@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life.

I've actually seen one (but only one). It was between a regular 
well-known dancer and teacher (whose name will be familiar to many, but 
which I shall not mention), and a younger man (also Argentine) who was 
attending milongas frequently at that time--a folkloric and tango dancer 
(and apparently a teacher)--and it was at Ni?o Bien.

Those who were there will remember it well from this description, since 
it is not something one easily forgets precisely because it happens so 
infrequently (it was perhaps a couple of years ago). A flurry of punches 
were thrown and one of the parties was briefly on the floor (slipped, I 
think, rather than being knocked down). No serious physical damage was 
done (it was over in seconds as they were quickly separated), but it 
created quite a stir and certainly spoiled the mood of the milonga for 
the rest of the evening. I wasn't close enough to see what happened and 
no one else seemed to have either, but I don't doubt that it got started 
by one or the other inadvertently (or intentionally?) creating a 
navigation problem (real or imagined) for the other.

> We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :)) 

Yes, but as often as not, it's a real dirty look. Sometimes it's 
justified and sometimes it's not (heck, they are usually BOTH giving 
each other dirty looks, and they can't both be right as to whose fault 
it was). I've been at the receiving and giving end of these (usually at 
the same time)--it's just a little harmless muscle/testosterone flexing 
and it's forgotten seconds later.

But I cannot agree entirely with the following of Sergio's statements 
(and usually I find myself agreeing with almost *everything* that Sergio 
says!), unless they are very much narrowed in their context:

> It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. 

> The quality of dancing has always been the same.
> Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.

Taking them one at a time:

> It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. 

Taken literally, I agree. But it implies that it's ONLY the tourists 
causing this. You just have to go to La Viruta to realize that it is 
not. There are a lot of young beginning Argentine dancers there, and 
many of them seem to be oblivious to the presence of anyone else on the 
dance floor. But this is more related to the second point below (and 
there are a lot of tourists around at La Viruta, so technically it's 
still a true statement, but it's not just the tourists causing it).

> The quality of dancing has always been the same.
> Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas.

Unfortunately, this is no longer true, unless you are restricting your 
observation to some traditional milongas.

There are two reasons that this has eroded:

1. Yes, the presence of tourists. First of all, there may be people who 
are intermediate or even advanced in their home community but are 
beginners in Buenos Aires milongas though they haven't realized it (at 
least as far as navigation skills are concerned). Secondly, it is an 
unreasonable expectation that a tango enthusiast who has saved his 
vacation time and money to make a for-him special trip to Buenos Aires 
is going to accept the proposition that he should stay away from the 
"mythical milongas of Shangri-la a.k.a. Buenos Aires" that he has 
specially come for because he has only reached pr?ctica eligibility in 
his skills. Maybe it should be that way, but it's not going to happen 
even if the person in question accepts the proposition (that milongas 
are just for those who already know how to dance well at milongas). The 
best one can hope for is increased sensitivity to the importance of 
floorcraft and the more crowded conditions.

2. The reduced importance amongst younger Argentines of the Milonga 
traditions, especially those that to them seem arbitrary and/or 
restrictive. One young Argentine woman I met at TangoCool pr?ctica a 
couple of years ago (a regular and pretty good dancer) said that she 
hates "all that nonsense of cabeceo and stuff ... it's so much better 
just to be direct and ask someone to dance!" (loose translation). (I 
disagree with her, but that's not the point.) Another example: All my 
non-Tango dancing Argentine friends have heard about La Viruta (and it 
seems about no other milonga, except possibly Confiteria Ideal). It 
seems to be well known in Buenos Aires in non-Tango circles. Many 
Argentines especially the younger ones who want to "try out" Tango will 
as often as not go to La Viruta to take their inexpensive beginners' 
class with teachers and other students in or close to their age group, 
and stay for the Milonga. The Milonga may be included in the price, they 
have a limited budget, and they're with their friends and have decided 
to make a night out of it at La Viruta. Who's going to tell them that 
well, on weekend nights La Viruta is really a Milonga and they should 
come back on Wednesday nights (or whatever is pr?ctica night) and find 
some other way to entertain themselves? The teachers and organizers at 
La Viruta will not--they WANT people to stay and enjoy themselves and 
want to come back (and spend money on drinks and food).

Don't get me wrong: I lament the dying of many of these traditions and 
support those who wish to uphold them (and occasionally try to do so 
myself, though I've long since ceased to be dogmatic about it), but it's 
an uphill battle at best and, though I hate to say it, perhaps a losing one.

And although La Viruta is perhaps an extreme in some sense, if you 
compare it with say, Lo de Celia at the other end of the spectrum (not 
the most traditional of the traditional milongas either, but one whose 
name is perhaps more familiar to those on this list), there are still 
any number of milongas in between these two points in the spectrum that 
exhibit the same "problems" to correspondingly lesser or greater degrees.

Shahrukh

From jb34528 at att.net  Thu Apr 23 15:55:23 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:55:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta
Message-ID: <042320091955.19068.49F0C7AB000614C000004A7C22230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

Shahrukh,
Just a little correction. When you pick up at La Viruta their weekly schedule ( a little handbill ) you would see that there are no milongas at La Viruta. I noticed that first in 2006. Specifically, Friday (Sat in fact) midnight till 5AM is a PRACTICA, The same for the next night. Midnight till 5AM is a practica. Could be that some other external publications list those nights as milongas but I consider the Viruta's own schedule as binding. Obviously, the management decided to accomodate the young generation that feels restricted by codigos.
Ja

From vytis at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 23 17:15:46 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:15:46 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <5C598E2B637CFA4F92B46D74A6E50FC98D50FD09AC@VAUNSW136.au.cbainet.com>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl><bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl><A5EB30BB-3F93-454B-A23D-761E7A4B8F6A@gmail.com>
	<5C598E2B637CFA4F92B46D74A6E50FC98D50FD09AC@VAUNSW136.au.cbainet.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS204C383705E21587B92FEAE750@phx.gbl>



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Burnett, David" <David.Burnett at cba.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:05 PM
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

> As I remember, when I was in BsAs 2 years ago the city council had just 
> declared that the 2-1-2-1 pattern was part of what defined a Milonga.
>


Tried Googling that law and could not find it.  It would be good to see it 
in total as it may also then end arguments on what is or is not Argentine 
tango as defined by the home of tango.  Anyone have an idea?
 


From newtonr at mscd.edu  Thu Apr 23 17:20:19 2009
From: newtonr at mscd.edu (newtonr@mscd.edu)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:20:19 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Paying my dues
Message-ID: <c880bf64397a6.397a6c880bf64@mscd.edu>

I too considered myself an experienced AT dancer.  But perhaps it was 
only my perception. Only a sojourn to the mecca of milongas would 
offer insight. Fortunately, I was briefed on what to expect, 
especially in regards to the neighborhood milongas. The elbows, the 
blocking and boxing-in (of the space, especially in the corners) only 
to be topped by a rather large alpha milonguero, timing his entry into 
my LOD, protruding his buttocks first to define his space, and then 
stopping to ease into the embrace in the middle of the song.  After 
all, it was his neighborhood and his club, I was a visitor.

It was an honourable challenge to how I would react.  A challenge to 
any newcomer, gringo or one from another barrio.  Handling these 
situations with humor and dignity without losing the feeling or rhythm 
of the song is what is expected, sort of like the fraternity hazing 
one would expect in college, but more importantly because you owe this 
grace to your Argentine partner.  She knows what the guys are doing 
and she knows why, she accepted your cabeceo and you must not let her 
down.  Although this is going on all around you, she must not feel 
your discomfort.  Lose your cool and the whole world becomes chaotic. 
This to me is life - ?Tango is life?, I believe Maria Nieves said.   
Pass the tests and you're welcomed warmly, it?s a wonderful real 
culture. 

Abrazos, Richard



From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Apr 23 21:12:23 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:12:23 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Message-ID: <20090423.181223.13022.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com>

Before you travel to Argentina you could benefit by spending some time 
with Deby Novitz's often funny, often insightful online diary of her 
years there since 2004.  And if you want an apartment for that time she 
has one in Palermo.

http://tangospam.typepad.com/
http://www.lavidacondeby.com/Home/welcome.htm

Deby writes -----------> To come here and not experience the culture - 
the food - pizza, empanadas, parilla, and the many other things that 
Buenos Aires has to offer is sort of sad.

I have to agree (though understand that I'm not claiming that Michael 
did not). BsAs - indeed, Argentina - is a beautiful, fascinating place. 
It deserves for everyone to play tourist there, in a way that respects 
those around you. It would also be a good idea to learn enough Spanish 
before you go so that you can get acquainted with some of the people. 
Tango dancing there is wonderful, but the tango people there are 
wonderfuller. Well, many of them anyway!

She also writes -----------> When people say they think that North 
Americans dance better than Argentines?  What your little feet are 
pointing better?  You have more figures?

It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do 
dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE. Perhaps this 
is comparing apples with oranges. I think it's more like comparing a 
huge barrel of apples someone randomly picked with a tiny basket of 
more carefully selected ones.

Or maybe it IS apples vs. oranges. I broached this subject to an 
Argentine at Lo De Celia who had lived in Boston for many years. He was 
amused and said something like, "You Americans! You take tango too 
serious. Loosen up! Tango is for fun."

Deby also writes -----------> The one thing you do not have is that you 
do not understand the music, the soul of tango.  North Americans, 
generally speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically 
they dance without soul.

I agree with this, especially since Deby qualifies her statement as 
"North Americans, GENERALLY SPEAKING..." For I believe that there are 
plenty of exceptions to this description of non-Argentine tango 
dancers. That there are many, all over the world, who hear tango music 
and feel a deep intuitive connection to it and to what some pieces of 
it tries wordless to say, and to the dance which (when we are at our 
best) expresses those pieces of music.

Surely others than Argentines can feel a deep sense of loss for a time 
or place or person forever lost? The joy of moving with the music and 
your partner and (if we are lucky) the others in the flow of dancers 
around the floor? The warmth of being with someone you like? The world-
brightening breathless excitement of embracing someone you find 
attractive?

I'm sure it works the other way. That there are many Argentines who 
hear the music and see the dance and are totally baffled and bored with 
what they see and hear. Just as there are many Americans who hear swing 
music and dancing, invented by (originally black) Americans, and are 
totally baffled and bored by it.

Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
http://ShapechangerTales.com






____________________________________________________________
Click here for free information on how to reduce your debt by filing for bankruptcy.
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From petronio at adam.com.au  Thu Apr 23 22:14:12 2009
From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:44:12 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel
Message-ID: <AC1206CAE8E548C38813A54EB1DD336A@BOBA63C8FE0B6>

Certainly I must agree with Debbie's and Sergio's descriptions of behaviour on the dancefloor, at least in the traditional milongas of Buenos Aires. In the 10 years I have been visiting Buenos Aires and dancing in those wonderful venues, adherence to the codes of the milonga have been fundamental in ensuring that everyone can have a good time, without interfering with others. 

However, I feel I should say that the one and only fight I ever witnessed at a milonga (last year) took place coincidentally at Gricel.  And yes, "loud yelling and fists" were involved. Definitely not a "lively and vivacious conversation", in fact it was rather ugly. The men had to be physically restrained, thus disrupting all the dancers for a while. And of course, the incident had a noticeable dampening effect on the mood of the milonga that night. The gentlemen in question were locals, one with a regular table in a prime position next to the pista. I feel this unusual incident didn't reflect so much on Gricel, because it was such an exception to the rule, but simply illustrated the fact that porte?os are fallible human beings, too.

Warm regards,

Patricia Petronio
Tango Sal?n Adelaide
www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:10:18 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:10:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel - Codes
Message-ID: <BAY105-W4450B3BC80474AF5F0147697720@phx.gbl>



Pat reports a fight she observed at Gricel and adds "I feel this unusual incident didn't reflect so much on Gricel, because it was such an exception to the rule, but simply illustrated the fact that Porte?os are fallible human beings, too."
 
1- "This unusual incident",...It should be very unusual as it goes against one of our traditions, when there is a need for discussion, an argument or a fight we normally go "outside", we do not do it in front of everyone else.
Alcohol drinking frequently plays a role in these cases.
 
2- "I feel this unusual incident didn't reflect so much on Gricel,"  I totally agree with this, my impression, not knowing about that particular incident, is that (most likely) the fight was not originated by something related to tango dancing or problems of navigation (this would be rather absurd).
 
The milonga provides the space where the traditional man/woman role is preserved. Even when in "real" life this is no longer the case.
 
The man is always in charge, he takes the indicative, he makes the decisions, no woman would attempt to pay for anything in the presence of a man, he always pays,etc, etc.
 
Both women and men preserve (in public) the masculine image of the man. Nothing is more threatening than to disrespect someone's masculinity and even worse due to women.
 
Nobody interferes with what seems to be a relationship between a man and a woman. That is the reason nobody will ask you to dance if you are perceived to be "even slightly" interested in a particular person.
 
Recently while I was in Mar del Plata, I danced with a lady psychologist that  goes to the milongas very frequently,  since she is one of the best dancers everybody asks her to dance, this has been so for years.
 
After a few dances I asked her if I could sit at her table.  I did that for a couple of milongas on different days, we sat together and danced together.  Then I got a flu and I did not go dancing for a whole week.
 
She went to the usual milongas for that week but nobody asked her to dance, even when she was alone.
 
There are many codes that we follow unconsciously, for example respecting the dancing floor: We do not cross the dancing floor even when it is empty, when moving from place to place we follow the periphery of the floor.
We do not stand in the middle of the floor eating or drinking, even if it is empty between tandas, etc..
 
My impression is that arguments like the one described (most likely) originated in a grudge lasting for some time and due to someone disrespecting the traditional codes that exist aat the milongas.
 
There has been some degree of confusion in the last few years due to a big influx of tango tourists that come and do not know the traditional codes. This caused changes in the Argentine dancer behavior that from time to time can cause problems among themselves.
 
Finally, as Pat says "porte?os are fallible human beings, too." I entirely agree, being a porte?o, and probably more so than people from other latitudes.
 
Best regards, Sergio

 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage.  
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Fri Apr 24 13:46:07 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:46:07 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta, Definition of Milonga
Message-ID: <49F1FADF.4070207@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Jan <jb34528 at att.net> says:

> Just a little correction. When you pick up at La Viruta their weekly schedule ( a little handbill ) you would see that there are no milongas at La Viruta. I noticed that first in 2006. Specifically, Friday (Sat in fact) midnight till 5AM is a PRACTICA

I think I remember seeing this on their flyer also. However, on their 
"baile" page on their website 
http://www.lavirutatango.com/baile_practica.html, notwithstanding the 
use of only the words "baile" and "practica" in the page address, says 
(emphasis THEIRS):

"Despues de las clases te pod?s quedar bailando y disfrutando de *una 
aut?ntica milonga porte?a*.

La *Milonga La Viruta*, convoca a todos los que quieran compartir una 
aut?ntica noche a puro tango."

Translation: "After the classes, you can stay to dance and enjoy *an 
authentic Buenos Aires milonga*. *Milonga La Viruta" brings together all 
those who wish to share an authentic night of pure tango."

I wouldn't read too much into either one though. The literal definition 
of a milonga is not always as strict in the minds of the organizers of 
these events as it is sometimes made out to be, though certainly people 
differ as to their interpretation of what makes a *good* milonga, and 
consequently attract different clientele.

For the record, I have nothing against La Viruta at all (just the 
navigation there, or lack thereof :-)). I do go there, but it tends to 
be only when I'm going with or joining a group of friends, as for me 
it's more fun in a group mode, and there are other places I enjoy more 
if I'm going alone or with one or two other friends.

Returning to the subject of the definition of "milonga,"

>> As I remember, when I was in BsAs 2 years ago the city council had just 
>> > declared that the 2-1-2-1 pattern was part of what defined a Milonga.

> Tried Googling that law and could not find it.  It would be good to see it 
> in total as it may also then end arguments on what is or is not Argentine 
> tango as defined by the home of tango.  Anyone have an idea?

Hmm, I wouldn't dare to pretend to come up with the definitive answer, 
but I certainly would not trust a bunch of bureaucrats to do so! It's 
the same group that defined a milonga so narrowly that several milongas 
briefly stopped playing the traditional occasional tanda of chacarera or 
rock-and-roll or "tropical" and in some cases even CORTINAS because they 
were afraid the Tango police (and we are talking about real police now) 
would close down the milonga and/or cause them to lose their 
preferential designation as a cultural event.

Shahrukh

From petronio at adam.com.au  Sat Apr 25 00:26:44 2009
From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:56:44 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel - codes
Message-ID: <59A2FA1EA3B14B2EA8008C519D7F70D7@BOBA63C8FE0B6>

I think Sergio has hit the nail right on the head with his perceptive comment.  The incident I described (by the way, which took place Oct 2007, not last year) seemed to be very much related to male - female relationships, fueled by some alcohol. Navigational problems or lack of skill on the dance-floor were irrelevant. Clearly the tension which erupted got the better of the men involved.

One question though: it certainly surprised me and my partner that the organisers of the milonga did not appear to take firm action eg. by asking the men to leave the venue for that night. The seething anger (one of the men was sitting at a table nearby us) was quite disturbing to all around. Would it be seen as too heavy-handed for the organisers to take the action which I described?

Regards,
Patricia 

From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 25 05:10:58 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:10:58 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Definition of Milonga
In-Reply-To: <49F1FADF.4070207@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <49F1FADF.4070207@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS1EA18D21BB130544D333BAE730@phx.gbl>



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Shahrukh Merchant" <shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 3:46 AM
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta, Definition of Milonga


>
> Hmm, I wouldn't dare to pretend to come up with the definitive answer,
> but I certainly would not trust a bunch of bureaucrats to do so! It's
> the same group that defined a milonga so narrowly that several milongas
> briefly stopped playing the traditional occasional tanda of chacarera or
> rock-and-roll or "tropical" and in some cases even CORTINAS because they
> were afraid the Tango police (and we are talking about real police now)
> would close down the milonga and/or cause them to lose their
> preferential designation as a cultural event.
>

My thanks to the person who sent me this link

http://www.cedom.gov.ar/es/busca/

A search of which (I and a couple of others) did can find Ley N? 2323 that 
says in part:

10.7.2 Caracter?sticas espec?ficas. Son parte fundamental de la estructura
de las milongas la tanda de tango, milonga o vals, la tanda de otros
ritmos, la cortina y la actuaci?n o n?mero vivo.

A efectos de esta ley se entiende por tanda el conjunto de cuatro o cinco
piezas bailables del mismo ritmo pertenecientes a una misma orquesta o a
varias de similar estilo.

La cortina es el intervalo entre tandas en una milonga. Indica pr?ximo
cambio de ritmo o de orquesta y descanso a los bailarines.
La actuaci?n o n?mero vivo puede estar a cargo de un grupo musical u
orquesta que ejecutan su repertorio para que el p?blico baile. Tambi?n
puede consistir en la exhibici?n de una o varias parejas, de ritmos afines
con el tango, para lo cual se deja la pista libre.
La oferta musical de cada jornada deber? ser al menos un 70% de ritmos de
tango, milonga y vals.

Nothing there about 2-1-2-1 tandas or in full Ley or in further searching.

But what does the 70% mean?  Does that allow 30% "tropical" or "folk"?  Does 
that not also mean that Tango fusion practicas can reclassify themselves as 
milongas, where they play Golden Age music in the majority?

Vince





 


From runcarolinerun at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 25 10:38:38 2009
From: runcarolinerun at hotmail.com (caroline)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:38:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] milonga fights
In-Reply-To: <mailman.745.1237134730.19063.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.745.1237134730.19063.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY125-W13A2E2E4861880DF24F2AFDE730@phx.gbl>


I didn't witness this fight, it happened right after I left for a party
but there was a big fight on the dance floor at Maipu 444 (Saturday
night milonga). It didn't really surprise me to hear about it because
the host that night was generating a really bad vibe with crowding too
many people into the milonga. For myself personally, I had to ask
several people to move their chairs each time I got up for a dance. It
was awkward and uncomfortable for all of us. 

And yes, the two men who started the fight were both Argentine.
_________________________________________________________________
Experience all of the new features, and Reconnect with your life.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650730

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 25 12:02:55 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:02:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Head Tilt
In-Reply-To: <20090421.132308.20749.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
References: <20090421.132308.20749.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <240133.85736.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> All of this is leading up to this question: How do we learn not to tilt 
> our heads?? And: Do we need to look down?? If so: When?? And if not, 
> How do we learn not to?
> 

Susana Miller teaches very strongly that the man should look 
straight ahead with no looking down,?or even glancing down.

The problem I have is that I start to feel very self-concious seeing 
all the faces in the crowd who are sitting out the tanda. And, yes, 
I know they're not looking at me but I still feel more comfortable 
glancing down even though I now know it's better to look straight 
ahead.

Jack


      



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat Apr 25 13:35:27 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:35:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Head Tilt
References: <20090421.132308.20749.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
	<240133.85736.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B1B7B506071B4E13893584C11B337F73@michaelditkoff>

I think the correct question is "Why is there is a need to tilt the head?" Tilting the head is probably a compensation. I remember when I'd reach for the woman's cheek, pulling my head ahead of my chest. My teacher told me not to reach. It's the woman's decision if she wants to make cheek contact. In other situations, tilting of the head is a compensation for difference in height of the dancers. My BA guide reinforced the importance of seeking women my height. 

The focus has to always be on the partner. Yes, I saw Argentines looking at me dance, especially since I was a stranger. I couldn't let that impact my dancing.

I suggest Alexander Technique which will improve your posture and head position. 

Michael
I dance Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Head Tilt



> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> All of this is leading up to this question: How do we learn not to tilt 
> our heads? And: Do we need to look down? If so: When? And if not, 
> How do we learn not to?
> 

Susana Miller teaches very strongly that the man should look 
straight ahead with no looking down, or even glancing down.

The problem I have is that I start to feel very self-concious seeing 
all the faces in the crowd who are sitting out the tanda. And, yes, 
I know they're not looking at me but I still feel more comfortable 
glancing down even though I now know it's better to look straight 
ahead.

Jack


      


From peterwesser at oregonducks.org  Sat Apr 25 15:06:17 2009
From: peterwesser at oregonducks.org (peterwesser)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:06:17 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Message-ID: <4f5401c9c5d8$e94f35a0$116a010a@mail2world.com>


Hi Larry, 
You say,
"It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do 
dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE."

OK, you go on and modify/frame your opinion.
But still, this is quite an assertion.
Question, what are your criteria?, and what is your evidence? 
Thank you,
Peter 


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 25 22:15:57 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:15:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
In-Reply-To: <4f5401c9c5d8$e94f35a0$116a010a@mail2world.com>
References: <4f5401c9c5d8$e94f35a0$116a010a@mail2world.com>
Message-ID: <840684.13138.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Since it's generally recognised that that the only 'real' way to assess 
someone's dancing is to actually dance with them, I'm guessing that 
Larry has had more success dancing with his fellow-Americans than 
he has with Argentines. 

Make of that what you will. But IMHO, Larry is very, very wrong to 
a degree that is off the scale. In fact, his comment just boggles 
my mind.

Jack



> From: peterwesser <peterwesser at oregonducks.org>
Argentines vs. non-Argentines
> 
> 
> Hi Larry, 
> You say,
> "It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do 
> dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE."
> 
> OK, you go on and modify/frame your opinion.
> But still, this is quite an assertion.
> Question, what are your criteria?, and what is your evidence? 



      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 26 00:18:52 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 04:18:52 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1256?q?Argentines_vs=2E_non-Argentines=FE?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W47D9CDC2E72187499FB85097700@phx.gbl>


I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers their opinion on this matter.
 
-Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?-
 
They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that Argentine men have a better embrace.
 
When I asked what do you mean by "a lot of technique" they explained that it seems that foreign men have had lots of schooling and seem to know a lot of steps and figures.
 
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 26 03:44:29 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 03:44:29 -0400
Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Re:_=5BTango-L=5D_Argentines_vs._non-Argentines=FE?=
Message-ID: <E44D9E2607F44984ADB96C302B802F67@michaelditkoff>

I think we're comparing apples and oranges. Tango is danced DIFFERENTLY in North America than in Argentina. In Argentina, the emphasis is on the embrace. In North America, I see open position so the embrace is not as important. In North America, the emphasis is on figures. Read the workshop announcements on Tango A. When is the last time you read about a workshop about better connection with your partner or feeling the music more?

There were a few times I danced North American style in BA. I'd lead a figure that opened the embrace and confused the woman. After a few times, I realized that was an error. In BA, no figure is worth executing if it opens the embrace. Argentine women are NOT impressed with figures, just who makes them feel the best on the dance floor.

Unfortunately, this discussion implies there are only two choices in dancing. All technique and no feeling vs. no technique and all feeling. Because of crowded dance floors in BA, feeling takes on more importance than technique. 

I was told about this before I went to BA. But you have to see it to believe it. 

Michael
I dance Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines?
 
 I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers their opinion on this matter. Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?
 
They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that Argentine men have a better embrace.
 
 When I asked what do you mean by "a lot of technique" they explained that it seems that foreign men have had lots of schooling and seem to know a lot of steps and figures.
Best regards, Sergio

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 26 09:02:35 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 06:02:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtUYW5nby1MXSBBcmdlbnRpbmVzIHZzLiBub24tQXJnZW50aW5lcw==?=
	=?utf-8?B?4oCP?=
In-Reply-To: <E44D9E2607F44984ADB96C302B802F67@michaelditkoff>
References: <E44D9E2607F44984ADB96C302B802F67@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <950853.94892.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


> From: Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
> 
> I think we're comparing apples and oranges. Tango is danced DIFFERENTLY in North 
> America than in Argentina. In Argentina, the emphasis is on the embrace. In 
> North America, I see open position so the embrace is not as important. In North 
> America, the emphasis is on figures. > 

> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> 
> I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers 
> their opinion on this matter.
> 
> -Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?-
> 
> They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine 
> men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that 
> Argentine men have a better embrace.
> 

I agree? with Michael and Sergio and their comments are pretty much what 
I expected.. And they?bears out my own experiences. I'm just surprised that 
Larry, with his many years of experience in Tango, just hasn't 'got it' yet.

Or maybe Larry really does believe that technique and figures are more 
important than musicality and the embrace?

Jack


      



From rcgimmi at aol.com  Sun Apr 26 10:44:32 2009
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:44:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Off the Beat
Message-ID: <8CB9494A510A778-183C-12C3@webmailbeta-m07.sysops.aol.com>

I have a student who is consistently off the beat with his steps and figures. ?What is the best way to diplomatically correct this problem? ?Any of you instructors out there -- how do you fix this?



Thanks -




Brujo

From Crrtango at aol.com  Sun Apr 26 10:55:43 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:55:43 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Hubris and tango
Message-ID: <c3a.4ea9a0d1.3725cfef@aol.com>

I find it amazing that someone would go to Argentina with such a culturally 
arrogant attitude that instead of using the experience to put their own 
dancing in perspective or try to learn something about the dance, its history, 
its social milieu, they denigrate or criticize the state of dancing there 
because it is not what they do or because they had a bad experience...all to 
justify their own lack of skill, especially in light of how few milongas they 
actually attended and the short time they were there.   And the worst is 
that within hours upon returning, they start posting their now "expert" 
opinions. 

What a wasted trip!

Charles



**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814855x1201410739/aol?red
ir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;hmpgID=62&amp;
bcd=Aprilfooter426NO62)

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 26 11:00:08 2009
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Head Tilt
Message-ID: <700974.24600.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Larry de Los Angeles writes:
>How do we learn not to tilt our heads?  

By not looking at your feet.  If you watch a guy dancing 
apilado, with contact at the head, chest, and (optionally) 
belly, you'll notice that he's not looking at his feet.  
Well, he can't.  The girl's in the way.  In most cases the 
girl's head is up against his head, so there's a limit to 
how much he can tilt his head anyway.

I suggest that when you're dancing, look at the people 
around you.  Do they see where you are?  Are they likely to 
hit you?  If you're busy looking at the people around you 
that means you're not looking at your feet.  And it's not 
just about avoiding getting hit.  It's about communicating.  
You make eye contact with a friend and he gives you a 
slight nod in greeting.  Your next partner gives you a 
wink.

>And: Do we need to look down?  

Generally speaking, no.

Are you looking down to see where her feet are?  The 
greater the contact, the better you can sense/feel what the 
girl is doing.  If you dance apilado, where the contact 
surface area is great, you can sense where your partner's 
feet are with good accuracy.  If you dance open embrace, 
where the contact surface is small, you can still sense 
where your partner's feet are but less accurately.

Are you looking down to see where your feet are relative to 
hers?  There are some moves/figures where you want your 
foot to touch her foot.  You can do this by touch.  Gently 
slide your foot to meet hers.
 
>If so: When?  

When we first begin to learn.  Although I knew one guy who 
never looked down, even at the beginning.  He was blind.  
When he danced his eyes pointed up.  I think that's because 
he was thinking.  You know how if someone asks you a 
question and you have to think about it, your eyes 
automatically look up?  I think the same thing was 
happening to him.

>And if not, How do we learn not to?

I'd say concentrate on collision avoidance.  By which I 
mean, make sure you see the people around you and they see 
you.  And if they don't see you, get out of the way if you 
can.
 
Isn't there a teacher local to you who dances with his head 
up?  You can try taking lessons from him (if you haven't 
already done so). 


      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 26 11:04:07 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:04:07 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Off the Beat
References: <8CB9494A510A778-183C-12C3@webmailbeta-m07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <277C74C266E3433E8D10C3A25D415A61@michaelditkoff>

Brujo:
Put on Pugliese's "La Yumba" and watch him walk alone to the music. If he is 
still off beat, that means he is NOT focusing on the music, but on steps. 
Stand next to him, put your arm over his shoulder, and walk him to the music 
showing him where the beat is. If he can find the beat during the exercise 
but NOT when he dances, his focus is lost. He is concentrating on figures 
and not the music. You need to tell him if he can't figure it out from the 
exercise.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rcgimmi at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:44 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Off the Beat


I have a student who is consistently off the beat with his steps and 
figures. What is the best way to diplomatically correct this problem? Any of 
you instructors out there -- how do you fix this?
>
>
>
> Thanks ->
> Brujo 


From Crrtango at aol.com  Sun Apr 26 11:07:30 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:07:30 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Off the Beat
Message-ID: <be7.4d62c3f8.3725d2b2@aol.com>

Do you practice walking very much or do you just teach steps? 

 My students always warm up by walking to the music, alone, not with each 
other, no matter how advanced they are.   It is difficult to hear music for 
some people but that is one of the best ways to help instill that into their 
bodies.   It usually works over time, but for beginners especially, steps 
complicate the basic rhythmic cadence needed for dancing well.   If they can't 
walk to the beat, chances are they can't dance to it either.
Charles


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 
2 easy 
steps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814855x1201410739/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;
hmpgID=62&amp;bcd=Aprilfooter426NO62)

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Apr 26 11:27:09 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:27:09 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Hubris and tango
References: <c3a.4ea9a0d1.3725cfef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <13EC94EE9B8C491FA4B1F55904640EE1@michaelditkoff>

I find it just as amazing that a narrow minded individual feels the need to 
attack somebody who has DIFFERENT opinions and experiences.  In his rush to 
condemn, he missed the first line of my first posting that it was based on 
my personal experience not universal truth. I never claimed to be an expert 
YET he claims to be an expert from his attacks. This is the reason Tango L 
will never reach its potential to serve the tango community. When people 
agree with you, you are their friend. And when they don't agree with you, 
they just lash out.

Wasted trip? Not in the least. I had a wonderful time at all the milongas, 
except for Gricel. In fact, one blogger included some of my dispatches in 
their blog and somebody else is going to include all my dispatches in a "BA 
guide for first time visitors." So some people found my information useful.

Since tango is danced from the heart, I don't see how somebody can dance 
well when they always angry. I don't understand how a partner can connect 
with somebody who has an angry heart.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Crrtango at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:55 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Hubris and tango


>I find it amazing that someone would go to Argentina with such a culturally 
> > arrogant attitude that instead of using the experience to put their own
> dancing in perspective or try to learn something about the dance, its 
> history, > its social milieu, they denigrate or criticize the state of 
> dancing there
> because it is not what they do or because they had a bad experience...all 
> to > justify their own lack of skill, especially in light of how few 
> milongas they
> actually attended and the short time they were there.   And the worst is > 
> that within hours upon returning, they start posting their now "expert"
> opinions.
>
> What a wasted trip!
>
> Charles 


From brick at fastpack.com  Sun Apr 26 15:40:43 2009
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:40:43 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Beware_criticizing_a_Porte=F1o=27s_Tango?=
Message-ID: <ca2c2380904261240q4549242dp497a1223fa139865@mail.gmail.com>

There is an old joke in Argentina:
"How do you make a quick buck in Argentina? Buy a porte?o for what
he's worth, and sell him for what he says he's worth."

Truth and reason have never gotten in the way of national pride, and
few are more proud than Porte?os.

So don't expect any Porte?o to accept that foreigners might be as good
at Tango, one of the uniquely Argentine treasures.

Your version of truth really doesn't matter. It is simply true that
Argentines are better at dancing Tango. Accept it, believe it, don't
question it: we all get along better.

TIC
Ladrillo


From buraktango at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:35:42 2009
From: buraktango at gmail.com (burak ozkosem)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:35:42 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BTango=2DL=5D_Beware_criticizing_a_Porte=F1o=27s_Tango?=
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380904261240q4549242dp497a1223fa139865@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca2c2380904261240q4549242dp497a1223fa139865@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35ba58f10904261335t6ac2a9fcv8e5fdc738b3948cd@mail.gmail.com>

Argentines are better at dancing Tango? Check this out first then you
make your decision. For me, Social Tango is very personal, it's
neither genetically inherited nor studied in academic institutions,
and it's immigrant culture, so it can infiltrate into different
cultures.

- Who are we comparing?
A: Milongueros who have been dancing over 30 years? Of course there is
nobody outside Argentina could achieve dancing over 30 years.
Therefore, there is no way to compare if Argentine milongueros are
better dancers than Non-Argentine milongueros.

B: Argentines who have started learning Tango recently (let's say less
than 8-10 years) compared to Non-Argentines who have similar
experience level. In this case, i wouldn't buy the generalization of
"Argentines dance better than others". I have Argentine students,
friends in this situation in BsAs and here in the states. Moreover,
Asians, Turks, and Italians might be challenging this hypothesis very
well.

I believe in 30 years, today's generation would be called milongueros
and that moment we will be able to make a hypothesis who is better at
Tango.
If someone dances over 30 years everyday hearing the same music over
and over, they better be good!

I hope this makes sense.
Burak
Chicago



On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Brick Robbins <brick at fastpack.com> wrote:
> There is an old joke in Argentina:
> "How do you make a quick buck in Argentina? Buy a porte?o for what
> he's worth, and sell him for what he says he's worth."
>
> Truth and reason have never gotten in the way of national pride, and
> few are more proud than Porte?os.
>
> So don't expect any Porte?o to accept that foreigners might be as good
> at Tango, one of the uniquely Argentine treasures.
>
> Your version of truth really doesn't matter. It is simply true that
> Argentines are better at dancing Tango. Accept it, believe it, don't
> question it: we all get along better.
>
> TIC
> Ladrillo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 26 18:27:56 2009
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:27:56 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?utf-8?q?Beware_criticizing_a_Porte=C3=B1o=27s_Tango?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCP?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W370E493A0EA41B59F2C39697700@phx.gbl>



Burak says "For me, Social Tango is very personal, it's neither genetically inherited nor studied in academic institutions,and it's immigrant culture, so it can infiltrate into different cultures."
 
I entirely agree with Burak, social tango is personal, every dancer develops his own style which is an exteriorization of his own personality.  It is not genetically inherited, and it is not studied in academic institutions.
 
Burak says "it is immigrant culture" .  To me Tango, the same as most of the other ballroom dances developed
from a mixture of European and African elements . Elements that *only* interacted when catalyzed by a very special cultural milieu.  
 
Tango, samba, rumba or swing were not born abroad and then imported as such into the American countries, those dances developed under the influence of a very particular culture that was/is expression of a certain nationality. 
 
I agree with Burak in the sense that Tango the same as swing, have a universal attraction.  Are artistic expressions that evoke feelings, emotions and understanding in people of diverse nationality and culture.
 
Questions will appear with respect to authenticity when we are obligated to learn those dances outside their cultural milieu.
 
It is irrelevant to compare and discuss who dances better tango.
 
Tango is something different for each one of us. I can say I like/ dislike the way so and so dances but I cannot say he dances better or worse tango than anyone else.
 
What is important (IMO) is to incorporate the elements that constitute the essence of tango:  hearing the music, understanding the rhythm, moving to that music, improvising,  learn to surrender to the music and to one's partner,  establish an spiritual connection with our companion during that journey, and eventually have a "magical" transcendental experience. All along obtaining a positive, good, kind feeling and having fun at the same time.
 
With best regards, Sergio
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. 
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Sun Apr 26 20:34:05 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:34:05 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Message-ID: <49F4FD7D.9060203@shahrukhmerchant.com>

<larrynla at juno.com> says:

> It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do 
> dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE.

It wasn't until I read peterwesser's indignant reaction to this 
assertion that I realized that it was actually saying the opposite of 
what I assumed after a "speed-read" scan (I thought Larry was just 
restating the mantra that Argentine's dance Tango better than 
non-Argentines).

Jack Dylan's theory to explain this um ... non-conventional-wisdom was 
that perhaps "Larry has had more success dancing with his 
fellow-Americans than he has with Argentines."

I might venture a guess, somewhat less condescendingly, that since Larry 
is a self-proclaimed Tango nuevo dancer, he speaks from that 
perspective. And, notwithstanding that Tango nuevo was "invented" by 
Argentines, and the best PERFORMANCE practitioners of it are probably 
Argentines, it is still very much a fringe phenomenon as a SOCIALLY 
relevant dance form amongst Argentines who dance Tango. Hence, it is 
quite possible that non-Argentine tango dancers indeed are more 
proficient in this form of Tango than Argentines (if you exclude the 
Argentine professionals who are mainly dancing for exhibitions or 
performances anyway), since they are probably more numerous.

And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding 
of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is 
negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is 
mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added.

But enough of putting words in Larry's mouth :-) he's quite capable of 
explaining himself. So, Larry, care to elaborate? (I hope you don't say 
that it was a typo and you meant to say the opposite -- that would be 
most anticlimatic after all this build-up!)

Shahrukh

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 21:52:54 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:52:54 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS204C383705E21587B92FEAE750@phx.gbl>
References: <13176a380904201041i55872690jdd2ad5abb2f2625b@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS11F04180AE3841A180574AE760@phx.gbl>
	<bc7e48270904201631jf01cccbi6a628c491151f7ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS51762448AB7371F2ED7E7AE770@phx.gbl>
	<A5EB30BB-3F93-454B-A23D-761E7A4B8F6A@gmail.com>
	<5C598E2B637CFA4F92B46D74A6E50FC98D50FD09AC@VAUNSW136.au.cbainet.com>
	<BAY102-DS204C383705E21587B92FEAE750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904261852t6fd8266eh92a58907d11be579@mail.gmail.com>

Somehow, I would find it difficult to think that the BsAs Council
would publish that online...

Vince...
Which milonga?? You were so clear, that surely you remember the
milonga name..... After all, it did STAND OUT!.....????


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 27 05:25:38 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Less and less Milongas (song)
Message-ID: <991333.2937.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I just finished taking a workshop with an Argentine
(close embrace Milonguero) instructor who travels the 
world teaching. He commented that in places where the
quality of dance is getting good, they are playing
less and less Milongas (song) during the Milonga.
He suggested that as a dancer gets good, they become
afraid of making 'mistakes' and don't want to dance
the Milongas (songs)for fear of making mistakes.
He also commented that the 'Nuevo', style of dance,
focuses in a way that is the opposite of how a 
Milonga (song) dancer needs to approach that dance.
>From my own experience in Philadelphia, the Milonga
is being played less and less and almost already extinct in
some dances. What a let down.


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 27 09:35:32 2009
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (sopelote@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
Message-ID: <215006.11470.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


"And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding 
of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is 
negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is 
mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added."? - Shankarah

 I took up playing Flamenco guitar in the sixties. The 'Golden Age' of
Flamenco had lasted into the early Fifties and was already heading somewhere else...I watched that beautiful and profound/feeling music slowly but steadily degrade from an in-home and neighborhood product (la juerga) into something staged strictly for it's look and entertainment.
Anyone, championing the old, golden-age form of the song and dance was to
be sadly disappointed as it disappeared from the culture. Today, we have
the 'Gypsy Kings' and if you enjoy their music, you too, are part of the 
demise of a music that once easily brought tears to one's eyes.
 Why should the 'progression' of tango be any different than that of Flamenco? On every side we hear champions of 'progress' and 'alternatives'.
Trying to postpone what seems to be the inevitable will be like trying to woo children from ice cream back to good salads. In my opinion we need a revolution in the 'teaching' industry...We need more teachers who have risen from the ranks of the Milongas of BsAs..Milongueros who dance every night if possible. Somehow, they will have to also don the hat of a 'teacher' too and they will have to do it for the love of the art not just the moohlah $$$...this is a lot to ask. Say goodbye to Tango as we knew it..say hello to the new Gypsy Kings.



      


From tango.society at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:10:36 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:10:36 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <215006.11470.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <215006.11470.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340904270910u53e5cec4s788d51175b6ddd4b@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know about flamenco, but there is a lot of truth in this post.

Outside Argentina, nuevo is rapidly becoming the de facto standard of
dancing at events advertised as 'milongas'. Non-tango music (including
'tango fusion') is becoming a standard part of the music played at
these events, even becoming the predominnt form of music at some
events labeled (or even not labeled) as 'alternative milongas'. In
Buenos Aires, except for a handful of venues (catering heavily to the
influx of dollars, euros, pounds, and yen) where nuevo and
alternatives to tango music are played for using 'steps' associated
with exhibition forms which have evolved (with non-tango influences)
from Tango de Salon, this does not exist. Instead, there are over 100
milongas per week where only classic tango music is played for dancing
tango and dancers dance some variation of Tango de Salon. The primary
exception to this as a general rule is that one will occasionally see
some tourists and Argentine instructors who cater to tourists who use
some exhibition moves that violate the codes of the milonga (keep feet
on the floor, respect the line of dance and space fo others on the
floor).

Yes, it is true that there are still milongas outside Argentina where
social tango dancing predominates and classic tango music is played.
However, over the last 2-3 years the trend has been towards more and
more exhibitions elements and non-tango music outside Argentina, such
that the Martian anthropologist would not recognize the milonga in
Buenos Aires and the events called 'milongas' outside Argentina as
sharing a common cultural heritage.

Whether this continues to the point that it will be necessary to hire
a detective to find traditional tango de salon and classic tango music
outside Argentine remains to be seen. Some have suggested to me that
this trend represents something only characteristic of the US MIdwest
(although some of my tango contacts familiar with the tango scene in
Europe have reported the same). In contrast, several people have
reported that the West Coast US is returning to social tango after a
short (and perhaps unfulfilling) romance with nuevo.

The problem with transmitting tango culture accurately to other
cultures is that other cultures have different preconceptions
regarding expression in dancing. 'Dancing with the Stars' in the US
and similar television programs in other countries reflect the
cultural value that good dancing is mastery of steps, often with
athletic qualities. Dancing is exhibition, showing off to the audience
that you have acquired physical skills. Nuevo readily satisfies these
preconceptions. Nothing could be further from the essence of Tango de
Salon, which focuses on the interpersonal connection of man and woman
in the embrace and their connection together with the music.

Teaching Tango de Salon outside Argentina is difficult. It does not
meet our cultural expectations regarding dance. So Tango de Salon may
become an endangered species outside Argentina. However, dancing in a
maintained close embrace and maintaining a connection with partner and
tango music is something that has lasted over 100 years in Argentina
and is likely to persist for some time to come. Maybe soon it will
become necessary to travel to Buenos Aires as the only way to
experience these pleasures of tango.

Ron


On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:35 AM,  <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding
> of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is
> negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is
> mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added."? - Shankarah
>
> ?I took up playing Flamenco guitar in the sixties. The 'Golden Age' of
> Flamenco had lasted into the early Fifties and was already heading somewhere else...I watched that beautiful and profound/feeling music slowly but steadily degrade from an in-home and neighborhood product (la juerga) into something staged strictly for it's look and entertainment.
> Anyone, championing the old, golden-age form of the song and dance was to
> be sadly disappointed as it disappeared from the culture. Today, we have
> the 'Gypsy Kings' and if you enjoy their music, you too, are part of the
> demise of a music that once easily brought tears to one's eyes.
> ?Why should the 'progression' of tango be any different than that of Flamenco? On every side we hear champions of 'progress' and 'alternatives'.
> Trying to postpone what seems to be the inevitable will be like trying to woo children from ice cream back to good salads. In my opinion we need a revolution in the 'teaching' industry...We need more teachers who have risen from the ranks of the Milongas of BsAs..Milongueros who dance every night if possible. Somehow, they will have to also don the hat of a 'teacher' too and they will have to do it for the love of the art not just the moohlah $$$...this is a lot to ask. Say goodbye to Tango as we knew it..say hello to the new Gypsy Kings.


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:48:03 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:48:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>


Ron wrote:

>> Outside Argentina, nuevo is rapidly becoming the de facto standard of
>> dancing at events advertised as 'milongas'. Non-tango music (including
>> 'tango fusion') is becoming a standard part of the music played at
>> these events, even becoming the predominnt form of music at some
>> events labeled (or even not labeled) as 'alternative milongas'.

>> true that there are still milongas outside Argentina where
>> social tango dancing predominates and classic tango music is played.


Actually, Ron, it is far worse than you might imagine.  There are a large number of nuevo tango dancers 
who despise the neo-tango and electronic tango music.  They by far prefer dancing to real, traditional, 
tango music.  Preferring the music played at authentic milongas, those dancers invade the sanctity of 
the dance floor and, space permitting, perform all sorts of wild gyrations right there in plain sight of 
their putative elders. 

What's more, these dancers are generally younger and fitter than most of us old farts, and both the 
men AND THE WOMEN think that they are dancing "socially" with each other, with everything strictly 
improvised lead-follow, when in fact they are clearly trying out for the circus.  OMG!!!!!

I think that the only solution is bouncers!  I have heard that they kick 
people out of the Authentic milongas in BsAs if they are misbehaving.  
Authenticity is the US will certainly be enhanced by having bouncers.  

Regards, 

D. David Thorn

_________________________________________________________________
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From Crrtango at aol.com  Mon Apr 27 12:59:24 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:59:24 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
Message-ID: <d53.48f316e8.37273e6c@aol.com>

Ron, 

Very well said.   I recently moved to the midwest from New York City and 
nuevo seems to proliferate more here (it was also becoming common there too), 
although many "seem" to profess an interest in classic tango, and I have 
seen a number of people dancing tango de salon, but even then it is often mixed 
with volcadas and colgadas and other moves that create bottlenecks on the 
floor.   I think another problem is that most people really aren't prepared 
to put in the necessary hard work to get the fundamentals, including most of 
the teachers. They get bored with the hard work and practice. They just drop 
out and find someone who will give them more immediate gratification with 
tricky and superfically appealing steps. Most people out here don't take 
regular classes over a period of time.   Instead they are "Festival Rats" and 
just go from one festival to another picking up yet another variation and 
fancy figure, and taking privates is a way of life out here. (I used to question 
how so many festivals could survive, but now I know why.) Their reference 
point just keeps constantly changing depending on the last guest teacher. 
Many people I have seen have very bad technical skills but are very athletic 
and know lots of steps. It is much easier to jump into nuevo figures to gain 
the illusion that one is dancing well. Maybe they should change the name 
(referring to the males anyway) to "Baggy-Cargo-Pants-and-Sneaker Jamborees"

But it is also culture.   Maybe our country is too bountiful and lacks the 
requisite melancholy.

cheers,
Charles 
 


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 
easy steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220572846x1201387511/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;hmpgID=62&amp;
bcd=Aprilfooter427NO62)

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 27 13:38:16 2009
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:38:16 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W3233467AF1219C3C6FB198A9710@phx.gbl>








Generalizing from a limited geographical exposure can be highly inaccurate. Here in Portland we have a dozen milongas every week, and all but one of them play exclusively Golden Age tango. I've seen no suggestion that we won't continue that tradition. We do also have a growing contingent of "nuevo" dancers, mostly young, but most of them are well-behaved and there are only a couple that have such poor floorcraft that you have to constantly pay attention to them when they're in your vicinity. 

J

P.S. "Baggy-cargo-pant-and-sneaker-jamboree" Very cute, Charles. I'll try to use that line at one of the afternoon alternative milongas at the next Portland festival in October. Speaking of which, the 4 or 5 evening milongas, with 300 - 500 in attendance, are strictly Golden Age tango. Don't see any demise here. Detente, perhaps.


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From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 14:19:19 2009
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:19:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>

Bouncers have too much discretion. We should create an official
rulebook and have referees enforce it, football-style. Two linesmen
and one chief referee who will be in the center of the dancefloor,
watching everybody. If there is a minor violation, the offenders will
be stopped, and walked off the LOD until the next song or even tanda
is played. If there is a not-so-minor violation, the offender will be
cautioned by a yellow card. Second yellow card or a major violation
will result in a red card and expulsion for the rest of the night. Any
event that calls itself a traditional milonga will have to comply with
all the rules in the rulebook. Only then it could display the much
sought title of "a milonga sanctioned by tango-l mailing list".

Sergey

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:48 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Authenticity is the US will certainly be enhanced by having bouncers.

From al at sgi.com  Mon Apr 27 16:52:37 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:52:37 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <d53.48f316e8.37273e6c@aol.com>
References: <d53.48f316e8.37273e6c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <49F61B15.60805@sgi.com>

Crrtango at aol.com wrote:
> Ron, 
> 
> Very well said.   I recently moved to the midwest from New York City and 
> nuevo seems to proliferate more here (it was also becoming common there too), 
> although many "seem" to profess an interest in classic tango, and I have 
> seen a number of people dancing tango de salon, but even then it is often mixed 
> with volcadas and colgadas and other moves that create bottlenecks

Volcadas and colgadas *need* not create bottlenecks.

Unless you let them, i.e. if you aren't mindful of the environment.

There's no need to emphatically pause for them (or to create *huge* tilts
in a volcada or colgada), and there's no need for the woman to let the
non-supporting leg wander where it should not during a volcada. You can
do these kinds of figures in a way that makes them a split second
surprise that makes everyone wonder whether they really happened
a secondf later, and not disturb the floor.

There's certainly no need to invade the space *behind*
you when you want to express yourself (know where to face for something you
want to do and you'll avoid lots of issues. If you aren't facing the right way,
then delay your plans and navigate until you are, or abandon that plan). And
yes, the right way may not be using the orientation you were taught in classes.
Tough luck.

The same general principle - mindfulness of the context - holds for boleos.

They can be followed with feet close to each other (yes, you don't *have*
to separate them; the important thing is the dissociation of the
upper body and the legs and the rotation. If you think "foot" and act "foot",
then you can be darn sure it's an ugly boleo), and they can be gentle.

You don't *always* have to act as if the leader were the Grim Reaper
with the follower as his Scythe (and the rest of the crowded floor
as the victims).

I think that's often not well taught. Some teachers like to teach
showy moves to please the audience, but forget to tell people that
actors on a stage shouldn't CONSTANTLY BE SHOUTING, and that some things
can also be whispered, and that some moves need not *always* be
showy.

*In general* I like to keep things like bolas, volcadas and
colgadas less dramatic even when there *is* room - at least most
of the time.

Dramatic embellishments are like salt: add too much
and you're left with an unpalatable mess.

And I even think that's true when I see dancers perform on stage:
I have lot more admiration for musicality and a dance that breathes
its own breath and weaves it into the music than for high BPS
(boleos per second) ratings.

Some stage performers make me wonder whether I'm supposed to hold up
a cardboard with "10" for technical merit (and "0" for artistic
merit) as an ice skating competition judge.




From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 19:47:29 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:47:29 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
	<ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>

Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...
Conversations... other 'social' activities like, say, swimming in the
ocean, walking for fitness - wrong clothes, wrong street to walk, just
ocean/sea/lake/river/stream - wrong wrong wrong...

.... or...

Embrace what you love, do and dance...
Leave others alone...
Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...

Dance....





2009/4/28 Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com>:
> Bouncers have too much discretion. We should create an official
> rulebook and have referees enforce it, football-style. Two linesmen
> and one chief referee who will be in the center of the dancefloor,
> watching everybody. If there is a minor violation, the offenders will
> be stopped, and walked off the LOD until the next song or even tanda
> is played. If there is a not-so-minor violation, the offender will be
> cautioned by a yellow card. Second yellow card or a major violation
> will result in a red card and expulsion for the rest of the night. Any
> event that calls itself a traditional milonga will have to comply with
> all the rules in the rulebook. Only then it could display the much
> sought title of "a milonga sanctioned by tango-l mailing list".

>

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 19:58:22 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:58:22 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
	<ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370904271658g5ae440d4i14e35198a70504bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...

      We do--at least those of us whose parents taught us social manners.

> .... or...
>
> Embrace what you love, do and dance...
> Leave others alone...

      Yes, let's just forget about teaching social rules and norms.
Anarchy rawks, YAY!!!

> Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...

      It's a lot nicer when everyone else on the floor is protecting
her too, instead of just being completely self-absorbed.

Huck

From al at sgi.com  Mon Apr 27 20:11:26 2009
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:11:26 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>	<ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F649AE.40006@sgi.com>

Noughts wrote:
> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...

Let's not forget breathing. Some people breathe in a totally
unacceptable fashion and should be prohibited to breathe...

...bouncer, please act accordingly!

From damian.thompson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:54:53 2009
From: damian.thompson at gmail.com (Noughts)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:54:53 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370904271658g5ae440d4i14e35198a70504bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W16C2DCD156429CE9515E3D91710@phx.gbl>
	<ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370904271658g5ae440d4i14e35198a70504bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8208d0904271854h1656e1acnff7cabad400d18f5@mail.gmail.com>

Gee Huck,

Thanks... maybe, just maybe, I'm highlighting the fact that sometimes,
we all take it too far....
Death or dismemberment is not going to happen here, unless you happen
to be in a building that fails.....

Having taught different activities where death can occur, I have a
very strong emphasis on safety, but... this is tango you know... a
social dance.  What makes everyone think that we can regulate it with
the "Spoken Rules" when we can't even regulate our own lives.  Our
courts are congested... etc....

Just a thought.... you know cause I can regulate and control me, what
I am doing and or want to do, but not you.  Sorry, I'm not a God, not
even close...  Even worse would be a Goverment trying to control..
.again.  We all know how successful that has been over time....

:-(




2009/4/28 Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com>:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Noughts <damian.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...
>
> ? ? ?We do--at least those of us whose parents taught us social manners.
>
>> .... or...
>>
>> Embrace what you love, do and dance...
>> Leave others alone...
>
> ? ? ?Yes, let's just forget about teaching social rules and norms.
> Anarchy rawks, YAY!!!
>
>> Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...
>
> ? ? ?It's a lot nicer when everyone else on the floor is protecting
> her too, instead of just being completely self-absorbed.
>
> Huck
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Apr 28 00:56:23 2009
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 04:56:23 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines More Relaxed About Tango
Message-ID: <20090427.215623.24919.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>

When I penned (keyed???) the Argentines vs. Americans message I was in 
mischief mode, at least the part where I said Americans are better 
tango dancers than Argentines. Actually I neither know nor care who are 
the "better" dancers. I only care about the few people I dance with and 
those around us, and that last only whether they let me and my friends 
have a good time.

Shahrukh wondered whether considering myself a nuevo tango dancer if I 
applied an unconventional standard to tango dancing. No, I don't think 
so, though not being able to read the minds of every tango dancer on 
the planet I can't be sure!
_____________________________________________________
I can't imagine anyone wants to know what my standards are, but here 
they are for the very few who might.

My first concern when dancing is always, always, always my partner. Is 
she having a good time? And how can I make it better for her? Partly 
this is just kindness, but a big part of it is selfishness. I want her 
to dance with me again, be not only willing but enthusiastic. When I 
come into a milonga I want to see her smile at me. And part of it is 
pride. I've always felt contempt for dancers who are selfish, who only 
care if they look good and consider their partners as good only if they 
make them look good.

My second concern is the music.  I fell in love with tango music the 
very first time I heard it and over the years have bought and listen to 
hundreds of CDs. I've also studied it. When I dance I don't think of 
myself the leader of the dance. Instead I surrender to the music and 
let it lead me.

My third concern is the people about me. I really only care most of the 
time if they make it hard for my partner and me to have a good time, 
but occasionally, rarely, when the evening is going well it feels as if 
I am part of some great carousel that exists not only here and now but 
in some mystical eternal sense and feel somehow lifted up.

The athletic or acrobatic part of the dance is my least concern, but it 
is important. I prefer very subtle but very precise movements, exactly 
in tune with all the more important parts of the dance. I like the 
sensuous feel of my muscles working well, and how my feet kiss the 
floor feel it kiss back at heel and ball, arch and toe.
_____________________________________________________
I've said I think myself a tango nuevo dancer. But I don't see that as 
opposing the more traditional styles of tango. I think of nuevo as 
enhancing, of spicing up, what I've spent more than two decades 
learning.

Those people who see nuevo as non-tango amuse me. So either-or, so 
devoted to black and white, binary, robotic thinking, so little able to 
master both-and, rainbow thinking. So limited - or, perhaps, so timid.
_____________________________________________________
Much more interesting than me are Argentines who dance tango. And it 
concerns me that many if not most tango dancers seem to think of 
Argentines as cartoon characters - all alike and rendered as little 
more than dolls, faces sanded smooth and painted-on blinkless eyes.

I know quite a few Argentines, since I live a mile from the L.A. 
Argentine Association and go to the two milongas a week they have 
there. And the third milonga I got to is run by Argentines: El 
Encuentro. (For details see http://www.tangoaficionado.com/ entries for 
Thursday, Saturday, and  Sunday.) Every one of them is an individual.

Only a few of the ones I know are obsessive about tango dancing. Most 
have a relaxed attitude toward it. My little time in Argentina mirrored 
that situation, but even more so.

I noticed that perhaps a quarter of those who go to milongas don't even 
dance; they listen to the music, drink, smoke, snack (and often snack 
some more!), and gossip. To many in a milonga it is a family affair, 
and you might see several generations on any night.

Some of the ones who go to milongas go for the three-to-five times 
nightly non-tango tandas, usually swing, Argentine folk dances, and 
tropical (all Latin dances except salsa). If they dance tango it's at a 
VERY basic level. And perhaps only to become acquainted with people who 
they can convince to dance the dances they really like.

In Buenos Aires proper (a ten-mile-diameter roughly circular area) 
there are many milongas and classes and practicas, often just a few 
blocks apart, especially in the eastern part of the city. You can 
easily walk to them, or take a bus ride to them and (after 10:00 pm) a 
taxi home. You don't have to make a major effort to do something tango-
related.

What is the AVERAGE level of quality in such a situation? Not very 
high.

Contrast that to the tango communities in the rest of the world, where 
even the biggest cities have only a few milongas and often not very big 
ones at that, where most dancers have to make a special effort even to 
get to a milonga. Most tango dancers there are thus fairly dedicated to 
tango and spend a lot of time practicing and taking classes. The 
AVERAGE level of quality in such a situation? Fairly high - at least as 
far as mastery of technique goes.

Another major difference between the Argentine and other tango dance 
communities is longevity. Gustavo Naveira in an interview said that he 
started teaching tango in the early 1980s, years before "Tango 
Argentino" and such traveling shows aroused the rest of the world to 
the delights of tango dancing. The demand for tango classes was huge, 
and he often had hundreds of people trying to sign up for classes which 
could hold only fifty people or so. And many of the would-be students 
were preteens.

Many of the people in mature tango communities have gone beyond the 
obsessive, technically oriented concerns of the beginners. They begin 
to feel confidence that they are doing tango right, and re-think about 
what being really good at tango means. They realize that the embrace is 
not just a physical connection, but can be an emotional connection 
also, and to a partner who is a unique individual. That feeling the 
artistic side of music rather than just its beat is an important part 
of dancing. That social dancing means caring for those around us.

As time goes by the non-Argentine tango communities will look more and 
more like those in Argentina. Which does NOT, I feel, mean that world 
tango is suffering a demise. But quite the opposite.


Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
http://Shapechangers.com



____________________________________________________________
Get a life insurance quote online. Click to compare rates and save.
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From Crrtango at aol.com  Tue Apr 28 11:00:38 2009
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:00:38 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Frankie Manning, r.i.p.
Message-ID: <beb.3c7cf43b.37287416@aol.com>

No, this isn't about tango but about a great dancer nonetheless.   For many 
of us "older" tango dancers, swing was our first dance.   My first tango 
teaching job was at Sandra Cameron Dance Center where there were a number of 
pictures of Frankie Manning, one of the greatest swing dancers ever, Lindy 
Hop specifically, still dancing and teaching and doing a great job of it well 
into his eighties.   He was an inspiration to many of us, no matter what 
dance we did and could outdance everybody even at that age.   He has just 
passed on at age 94 but was still dancing and planning to dance at an upcoming 
festival.   Wow!   We should all be so lucky.   If there was ever a reason to 
never stop dancing, no matter what dance you do, he was it.   Sandra Cameron 
Dance Center brought in some great dancers over the years, but he had to be 
the best.   Many people will miss him. See the NY Times online article.
Charles


**************
An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 
Easy Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221621499x1201450105/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&amp;hmpgID=62&amp;
bcd=AprilExcScore428NO62)

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 28 12:01:13 2009
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:01:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Frankie Manning, r.i.p.
In-Reply-To: <beb.3c7cf43b.37287416@aol.com>
Message-ID: <611902.83325.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 4/28/09, Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:
> No, this isn't about tango but about a great dancer
> nonetheless.   For many of us "older" tango dancers, swing was our first
> dance.   My first tango teaching job was at Sandra Cameron Dance Center where there were a number of pictures of Frankie Manning, one of the greatest swing dancers ever, Lindy Hop specifically, still dancing and teaching and doing a great job of it well into his eighties.   

Ok, I'll relate this to tango.  Frankie Manning is a good example of a dance genre perhaps being defined too narrowly stylistically.  There were hundreds of Lindy Hop dancers during the big band era but most disappeared.  Frankie was rediscovered and his style is what most know as Lindy Hop.  However, I'm sure that with so many dancers, there were many other styles available too.  I understand that there's some debate in the Lindy Hop community over "authenticity".  With so many dancers gone, how is it possible to decide what was authentic and what wasn't?  Frankie, himself created new steps and aerials.  I wouldn't be surprised if it caused a stir with "social dancers", yet aerials are now an accepted part of Lindy Hop.  Someone else can comment on their social acceptability.

I've heard that a similar situation occurred with tango DJ's.  Less than a handful of deejays existed after the military was overthrown, so their tastes developed the sound heard at milongas today.  Perhaps the other deejays had other music preferences.  Daniel Trenner commented that Fresedo was the most popular of the tango orchestras but few recordings exist.

Same thing with farming in Russia.  When the farms in Russia opened up to the West, some had to switch their farming practices to include the hybrids American companies wanted.

>From many varieties to just a few, just like in tango.  However, now new dancers are creating new movements, just like Frankie Manning and the Lindy Hoppers of today.  

Trini de Pittsburgh

 


      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 28 12:29:46 2009
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:29:46 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Frankie Manning, r.i.p.
Message-ID: <BLU119-W28D47ECE4385F49287F1D1916E0@phx.gbl>


Trini de Pittsburgh.

Although you made good points, I do want to comment specifically on:

>> Frankie Manning is a good example of a dance genre perhaps being defined too narrowly stylistically....

Perhaps.  However Lindy, and vernacular jazz dance in the braoder sense, has been informed by _many_ besides Frankie.  I mean to take nothing from him. But Al Mims, Dean Collins, and host of others have all contributed to the current understanding of Lindy.  You might want to check out Peter Loggins' (At least I think it's Peter's) history page, http://www.dancehistory.org/ for additional insight.


>> yet aerials are now an accepted part of Lindy Hop.  Someone else can comment on their social acceptability.

Actually, NOT acceptable socially.  And rather dangerous.  I recall an aerials class I took years ago from an outstanding couple.  Their comment was:  If you do aerials, you WILL get hurt.  The only questions are when and how badly.  I'm sure all veterans of the LA swing scene recall Rusty Frank, a very good dancer ( this Rusty Frank - http://rustyfrank.com/ ) going around in a neck brace / birdcage for frickin' ever.  Good thing she even lived through that.

David

 



_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Apr 28 13:51:23 2009
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:51:23 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely Langman (Posadas) passes away in Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <49F7421B.30905@shahrukhmerchant.com>

I regret to inform you that Kely Langman, known throughout the Tango 
world as part of the former partnership of "Facundo & Kely Posadas," 
passed away during last Sunday night (26/27 April 2009). There are no 
services, as she was cremated shortly after she passed away.

Although they had separated some time ago, Kely continued to dance 
socially until at least as recently as a month ago, despite a continued 
struggle with cancer, to which she finally succumbed. (She stated her 
age at that time as 79 to a close friend of hers.)

She is survived by her two sons Fabian and Eduardo from an earlier marriage.

There is a brief announcement in Spanish at the top of the page 
http://www.todotango.com/english/cafe/lamesa.asp?idf=38 to which you may 
add your words and sentiments if you wish.

Shahrukh

From TangoFantasy at aol.com  Tue Apr 28 14:14:06 2009
From: TangoFantasy at aol.com (TangoFantasy@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:14:06 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely Langman (Posadas) passes away in Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <bc5.493a3ed9.3728a16e@aol.com>


 
Thank you for the information.  
 
I am very saddened by this news.  Kelly was always such a figure and  so 
much loved at Tango Fantasy.  I cannot imagine not ever having her with  us 
again.
 
May God look after her soul and may she rest in peace.
 
Lydia Henson
_www.tangofantasy.com_ (http://www.tangofantasy.com/) 
 

**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221621499x1201450105/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Apr
ilExcScore428NO62)

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 28 14:51:51 2009
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Aerials in social dancing
Message-ID: <875166.5758.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:


> 
> Actually, NOT acceptable socially.  And rather
> dangerous. 

And yet people do aerials socially.  As a worst case
example:  on my first tango trip to BsAs, in 1996, 
there was a couple from the western US who, during a
swing tanda at a milonga, did several aerials in the
middle of the floor.  Did they get away with it?  Oh
yes, because the Argentines were too polite to
embarrass them, but I was embarrassed that these two
ballroom trained folks were so inconsiderate and so
egotistical.  They did it several times at various
milongas.  NOT what I had come to Argentina to see!

At least swing is a 'slot dance' and thus it did not
interrupt the ronda too much.

Nancy





      

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 28 16:59:03 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:59:03 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo milonga music mix
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS23C6A9E64FE37882A79E3AE6E0@phx.gbl>

Interesting to get this break down of music from the upcoming Montreal nuevo 
festival:

** ( from our FAQ ) The music ratio in each milonga will be different :
* Open Milonga : 80% classic, 20% alternative
* Chill Out Milonga : 75%  classic, 25% alternative
* After- hour milonga ( Friday ) : 50% classic , 50% alternative
* Grand Ball : 80% classic 20% alternative
* All-Night Milonga :( Saturday ): 90% classic 10% alternative
* Closing Milonga : traditional to start, progressing to alternative



Vince

 


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:05:08 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:05:08 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS23C6A9E64FE37882A79E3AE6E0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY102-DS23C6A9E64FE37882A79E3AE6E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370904281405y1ea7b702le76f46a826b49772@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting to get this break down of music from the upcoming Montreal nuevo
> festival:
>
> ** ( from our FAQ ) The music ratio in each milonga will be different :
> * Open Milonga : 80% classic, 20% alternative
> * Chill Out Milonga : 75% ?classic, 25% alternative
> * After- hour milonga ( Friday ) : 50% classic , 50% alternative
> * Grand Ball : 80% classic 20% alternative
> * All-Night Milonga :( Saturday ): 90% classic 10% alternative
> * Closing Milonga : traditional to start, progressing to alternative

      I far prefer what seems to have become the de facto standard at
most US festivals, to wit, the nighttime milongas are all classic,
with separate late afternoon alternative "milongas" for those who go
in for that sort of thing.

Huck


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 28 22:04:32 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Aerials in social dancing
In-Reply-To: <875166.5758.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <875166.5758.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42181.67270.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


And yet .... in just about every other country that this 
couple visits, their skills are probably appreciated and 
applauded.

I mean - it was a Swing tanda with, presumably, a lot 
of space available. So, why not? I don't see a problem.

Swing is not Tango. Different rules, different culture.

Jack



> From: NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com>
>> 
> And yet people do aerials socially.? As a worst case
> example:? on my first tango trip to BsAs, in 1996, 
> there was a couple from the western US who, during a
> swing tanda at a milonga, did several aerials in the
> middle of the floor.? Did they get away with it?? Oh
> yes, because the Argentines were too polite to
> embarrass them, but I was embarrassed that these two
> ballroom trained folks were so inconsiderate and so
> egotistical.? 
> 


      



From jb34528 at att.net  Wed Apr 29 02:41:54 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:41:54 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
Message-ID: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

As Sergio Vandekier and Clay Nelson, among others, patiently explained, Argentine tango has been evolving. We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos Aires city fathers who obviously recognized that evolution. Why did they set the minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%? Accordingly, these days, an event called milonga should offer traditional tango music as well as some of the late music ( say Libedinsky, Gotan, etc ) and even offer some non-tango music to experiment with. Madeleine Peyroux or Frank Sinatra come to mind, e.g. No need for segregation into afternoon(!) neo-milongas or alternative milongas.
Jan

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 29 05:32:35 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
Message-ID: <535664.14910.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Regardless of what the 'wise city fathers of Buenos Aires' have decreed, the fact 
is that virtually all milongas in Buenos Aires play 100% traditional tango music.

Organisers outside Argentina have a choice to make. Dance Tango as they do 
in Buenos Aires or do something different. Everyone is free to choose and it's
OK, provided they give advance notice of what they are offering. Then the 
consumers can make informed decisions.

Jack



> From: "jb34528 at att.net" <jb34528 at att.net>
> 
> We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos 
> Aires city fathers who obviously recognized that evolution. Why did they set the 
> minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%? 
> 



      


From tango.society at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 07:42:30 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:42:30 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
Message-ID: <cff24c340904290442l1180d76ev39561e5336f77d0d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:41 AM,  <jb34528 at att.net> wrote:
> As Sergio Vandekier and Clay Nelson, among others, patiently explained, Argentine tango has been evolving.

Yes, tango has been evolving, but within certain boundaries that still
characterize tango as a social dance. Among these is a respect for the
other dancers on the floor, which means adhering to the line of dance
and not invading the space of  other dancers. Some of the more highly
evolved forms derived from tango, such as nuevo, have suspended such
rules.

> We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos Aires city fathers who obviously recognized that evolution.

There were probably some mothers involved in that decision making too.

> Why did they set the minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%?

Because there are other dance rhythms played at Buenos Aires milongas,
such as cumbia, swing, and chacarera. This si part of the porten~o
culture. There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the
music is tango (milonga and vals). A 'milonga' will play no more than
30% of these other rhythms (to which tango is not danced).

> Accordingly, these days, an event called milonga should offer traditional tango music as well as some of the late music ( say Libedinsky, Gotan, etc ) and even offer some non-tango music to experiment with. Madeleine Peyroux or Frank Sinatra come to
mind, e.g.

'Should offer some non-tango music to experiment with'? This is a very
ethnocentric viewpoint. What plays in Peoria does not necessarily play
in Buenos Aires. Very few porten~os want to dance tango to tango
fusion music and thus there are very few places playing tango fusion
for dancing tango. Argentines do not want to go to a 'milonga' and
find out that 30% of the music is electrotango and the like. It is
mostly foreigners who connect with these non-Argentine rhythms who
want to do that. Of course, if you invade Buenos Aires and flood it
with dollars, euros, pounds, and yen, demanding neotango at the
milongas, you too will change the course of tango history.

> No need for segregation into afternoon(!) neo-milongas or alternative milongas.

Yes, there is. There are many, many people, including non-Argentines,
who do not like to dance tango to non-tango music (including the
mislabeled 'neotango', which lacks a tango rhythm). I suppose some
creative marketer could replace the accordion with a bandoneon in a
polka band and market that as 'tango fusion' and some mis-informed
individuals would think it is milonga.

We all benefit by correct labeling of so-called 'tango' events. I have
been to events advertised as 'milongas' where almost no or even ZERO
traditional tango music has been played. Language is intended to
communicate. Loose definitions of tango and milonga are what have
people on tango-l up in arms.

Ron

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 29 11:28:14 2009
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:28:14 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340904290442l1180d76ev39561e5336f77d0d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<cff24c340904290442l1180d76ev39561e5336f77d0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS46F49D7B94F4EC582B3B4AE6F0@phx.gbl>

>There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the
>music is tango (milonga and vals). A 'milonga' will play no more than
>30% of these other rhythms (to which tango is not danced).

Fascinating. Was this generally known before I posted the law extract a few
days ago?

Which begs the question, if foreigners are to be true to the culture of the
portenos and Argentine tango should there be an expectation that up to 30%
non-tango music be played at milongas?

Vince
 


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 13:16:10 2009
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:16:10 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370904291016o63e0343fs42fac18e62aa546d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:41 PM,  <jb34528 at att.net> wrote:
> As Sergio Vandekier and Clay Nelson, among others, patiently explained, Argentine tango has been evolving. We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos Aires city fathers who obviously recognized that evolution. Why did they set the minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%?

      Because they wanted to be sure to include all milongas (no
matter how weird) under their new regulations after that disastrous
fire a few years back.  I can assure you that these percentages had
nothing to do with "defining" Argentine culture, but rather enforcing
their new rules.

Huck, "how's that for patiently explaining"


From keith at totango.net  Wed Apr 29 14:48:09 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:48:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely
Message-ID: <60679.65.93.194.178.1241030889.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Of course whoever met Kely and Facundo over the years must have enjoyed
the two of them.

The personal charm and lovely way and ability to make people feel like
they could do it too has made a big mark because they travelled so much.

(I remember my times with them in much the same way I so fondly recall
times with Pepito and Suzuki).

There were many nights over the years when my dances with Kely gave me so
much pleasure - and - tango joy. We laughed, a lot.

I thank you, Kely for sharing the way you did.

Dance now in the arms of the angels and make them happy, too, mi amor.

From jb34528 at att.net  Wed Apr 29 14:38:28 2009
From: jb34528 at att.net (jb34528@att.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:38:28 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370904291016o63e0343fs42fac18e62aa546d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<ecf43f370904291016o63e0343fs42fac18e62aa546d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <042920091838.12172.49F89EA3000C46A900002F8C22243651029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>

Huck,
Now it?s my turn to be patient :-). I do agree that the fire resulted in a flurry of regulations. So the milonga definition might have been included ? as an ?earmark?? In 2006, the last time I was in Sin Rumbo, there were no young people. The last time I was in Sunderland, there were no young people. At the same time Villa Malcolm, La Viruta, Practica X, do not care about the ?milonga? designation. They are happy to have practicas and their venues are packed. That?s where the young generation dances. ( Viruta has practicas going till 5AM ) Could that be considered a writing on the wall? That?s where the wisdom of BsAs city fathers, IMHO, comes in ? they wisely chose the compromise to protect the milonga business. 
Jan
P.S.: Shakhrukh recently pointed out an inconsistency: on the La Viruta web page they write ?milonga?, nevertheless, I consider the schedule distributed at the venue to be controlling.

-------------- Original message from Huck Kennedy <tempehuck at gmail.com>: -------------- 


> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:41 PM, wrote: > As Sergio Vandekier and Clay Nelson, among others, patiently explained, Argentine tango has been evolving. We should appreciate the wisdom of the Buenos Aires city fathers who obviously recognized that evolution. Why did they set the 
> minimum of the traditional argentine tango music at 70% and not at 95% or 90%? 
> 
> Because they wanted to be sure to include all milongas (no 
> matter how weird) under their new regulations after that disastrous 
> fire a few years back. I can assure you that these percentages had 
> nothing to do with "defining" Argentine culture, but rather enforcing 
> their new rules. 
> 
> Huck, "how's that for patiently explaining" 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Tango-L mailing list 
> Tango-L at mit.edu 
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

From keith at totango.net  Wed Apr 29 17:21:43 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:21:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely
Message-ID: <60728.65.93.194.178.1241040103.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

I just received this email from Bs. As.:


"Shahrukh made a mistake on her name and age when he posted to Tango-L.
Would you please correct it?

Kely Lamdan turned 69 on December 24, 2008."





From keith at totango.net  Wed Apr 29 18:49:13 2009
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:49:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Kely
Message-ID: <61611.65.93.194.178.1241045353.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


The mail that is coming to me about Kely ...

I appreciate so much knowing anew how many fans she had around the world.

I want to be so careful ... in no way do I want to have anything I say
seem to be critical of anyone else. I am not.

PLEASE don't read the following as if it is.

But I would so like to show respect to Kely by saying this:

I loved her for her lack of pretension.

When we did those gala shows at Lydia Henson's Miami Festival all those
years, every one of the professionals would add to the event by doing
costume changes. A real show. Great!

Kely, bless her, didn't try to compete. Her way was to pack what she
absolutely needed for 2 weeks up north, and she probably made sure Facundo
had everything he wanted - and one show dress was fine for her. A
practical woman who knew who she was and stood out for that.

I don't know - this is how she struck me.

A real fine lady of tango. So real.

Adorable.






From tango.society at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 06:38:52 2009
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 05:38:52 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DS46F49D7B94F4EC582B3B4AE6F0@phx.gbl>
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>
	<cff24c340904290442l1180d76ev39561e5336f77d0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DS46F49D7B94F4EC582B3B4AE6F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cff24c340904300338v4b786719t7ac065d025db057c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the
>>music is tango (milonga and vals). A 'milonga' will play no more than
>>30% of these other rhythms (to which tango is not danced).
>
> Fascinating. Was this generally known before I posted the law extract a few
> days ago?
>
> Which begs the question, if foreigners are to be true to the culture of the
> portenos and Argentine tango should there be an expectation that up to 30%
> non-tango music be played at milongas?
>

In Buenos Aires milongas, the non-tango music played is typically
swing (jazz, rock n' roll), cumbia, and chacarera, i.e., music for
dancing dances other than tango. Tango is only danced to traditional
tango music, either Golden Age or, rarely, a more modern recording in
the style of the Golden Age.

With respect tot eh percentage of non-tango music played at a milonga,
that varies somewhat. The most I recall hearing was at a Saturday
night milonga at Glorias Argentinas, where the music program followed
the format TVTO TMTO, where O represents the other, non-tango rhythms
played, so about 25% non-tango music. In contrast, at El Beso there
could be as little as 2 tandas of non-tango music in 4 hours, so
something like TTV TTM TTV TTM O, i.e., less than 10% non-tango music.
Most other milongas are somewhere in between. However, I do believe I
have been to a few milongas in Buenos Aires where no 'other rhythms'
have been played. Perhaps I wasn't there long enough. My subjective
impression is that there is more non-tango music on weekends, perhaps
because weekend milongas appeal to an audience with a wider diversity
of dancing experiences, but still no tango fusion or non-tango music
to which tango is danced.

La Viruta and La Marshall are apparent exceptions to this. (I didn't
hear tango fusion or non-tango music when I was at La Viruta in 2007.
I have not been to La Marshall.)

Ron

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Apr 30 15:11:52 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:11:52 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix
References: <042920090641.20482.49F7F6B1000E32D40000500222193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net><cff24c340904290442l1180d76ev39561e5336f77d0d@mail.gmail.com><BAY102-DS46F49D7B94F4EC582B3B4AE6F0@phx.gbl>
	<cff24c340904300338v4b786719t7ac065d025db057c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCF51F4631144513AEB1B7D2652A5DBA@michaelditkoff>

As a foreigner, how would I know that up to 30% non-tango music would be 
played? I have a copy of  April's "La Portena Tango" which has stories and 
ads for milongas. None of the ads list percentages, just days, hours and 
sometimes a contact's name and phone number.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society at gmail.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix


> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the music is tango 
(milonga and vals). A 'milonga' will play no more than  30% of these other 
rhythms (to which tango is not danced).
>>

>> Which begs the question, if foreigners are to be true to the culture of 
>> the portenos and Argentine tango should there be an expectation that up 
>> to 30%
>> non-tango music be played at milongas?
> Ron


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Apr 30 20:24:22 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:24:22 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance in BA
Message-ID: <F89211DBD7224AB08B648058EA56789F@michaelditkoff>

I read somebody's blog about explaining the rules at a milonga. Here's the link. When is the last time you went to a milonga where somebody explained the "traffic rules?" The blog pointed out that violaters are given yellow penalty cards (like in soccer) and if you get 3, you're out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n0cE_3iUo&feature=related


The blog reads "Hector Pellosa runs the Saturday milonga Cachirulo in Plaza Bohemia at Maipu 444." I didn't make this millonga during my trip to BA. There are 1600 weekly milongas. I can't make all of them.


Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 30 22:12:58 2009
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance in BA
In-Reply-To: <F89211DBD7224AB08B648058EA56789F@michaelditkoff>
References: <F89211DBD7224AB08B648058EA56789F@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <841097.46092.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


But the instructions were given in English, French and Chinese [I think]; 
nothing in Spanish. What does that tell you? Sounds to me like they're
trying to educate the tourists.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> 
> I read somebody's blog about explaining the rules at a milonga. Here's the link. 
> When is the last time you went to a milonga where somebody explained the 
> "traffic rules?" The blog pointed out that violaters are given yellow penalty 
> cards (like in soccer) and if you get 3, you're out.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n0cE_3iUo&feature=related
> 



      


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Apr 30 23:06:03 2009
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 23:06:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance in BA
References: <F89211DBD7224AB08B648058EA56789F@michaelditkoff>
	<841097.46092.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <71F561C5FCBC459899403D91766F2C50@michaelditkoff>

We don't know if Hector gave instructions in Spanish BEFORE the filming 
began. He gave the microphone to the other man who knows English and French 
and that's when the filming began.

In other news, those who haven't been to Argentina will see that at this 
traditional milonga the unaccompanied women sit on one side and the 
unaccompanied men sit on the other to facilitate cabeceo.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
To: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>; "Tango L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Line of Dance in BA


>
> But the instructions were given in English, French and Chinese [I think]; 
>  > nothing in Spanish. What does that tell you? Sounds to me like they're 
> trying to educate the tourists.
>
> Jack
> ----- Original Message ----
>>
>> I read somebody's blog about explaining the rules at a milonga. Here's 
>> the link. >> When is the last time you went to a milonga where somebody 
>> explained the
>> "traffic rules?" The blog pointed out that violaters are given yellow 
>> penalty >> cards (like in soccer) and if you get 3, you're out. >> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n0cE_3iUo&feature=related
>>
>
>
>
>
>