From joe.grohens at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 00:45:36 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 23:45:36 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Salon championship Message-ID: <81690952-29A1-4705-BC07-443DDA0891B2@gmail.com> Sergio said: > In the finals of Tango Salon ( Social Tango), the couples are judged > on the basis of : continuous embrace, circulation on the dancing > floor, dancing low on the floor, cadence and beat; 54 couples were > selected in the semifinals yesterday. Thanks, Sergio, for sharing this news about the championship. When you say "cadence and beat" I imagine that you are translating from "cadencia" and "compas". I wonder if you or others could elaborate on these particular values. I don't think the word "cadence" is used in English in the way that "cadencia" is used by tango dancers from Buenos Aires. The English word cadence usually refers to an effect in speech relating to inflection or a rise and fall of pitch. In tango dancing we often hear people talk about cadencia, but what are they referring to? Is it phrasing? Is it swaying/rocking? Is it related to a wave? ... On "compas", there is a similar language problem. What does it mean to dance with compas? Or to have compas? If we say that "compas" means "beat" - does that mearly mean to dance in tempo, neither rushing nor dragging? Or does it mean to have a rhythmic style of dancing? Or does it mean that the dancers reflect the structural sections of the music, specifically the measures, but also the groupings of measures into sets of two or four (in other words, it relates again to phrasing). I would like to hear some discussion about how these words are used in reference to tango, and what specifically they are referring to in terms of movement. Thanks in advance for anything anyone can contribute to explicating the meanings of these words, compas and cadencia. Joe From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 1 12:43:28 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Cadencia y ritmo Message-ID: Cadence and rhythm in Spanish is a reference to the harmony between the sounds and the movements of the dancer. Cadencia : En danza, armonizaci?n de los sonidos y los movimientos del bailar?n: la brusca cadencia del baile moderno. Ritmo : M?S. Orden al que se sujeta la sucesi?n de los sonidos en la m?sica: lleva el ritmo con las palmas. 3. the beat, rate, or measure of any rhythmic movement: The chorus line danced in rapid cadence. 4. the flow or rhythm of events, esp. the pattern in which something is experienced: the frenetic cadence of modern life. 5. a slight falling in pitch of the voice in speaking or reading, as at the end of a declarative sentence. 6. the general modulation of the voice. 7. Music. a sequence of notes or chords that indicates the momentary or complete end of a composition, section, phrase, etc. ?verb (used with object) 8. to make rhythmical. Beat,Music. to mark (time) by strokes, as with the hand or a metronome Music. a. the audible, visual, or mental marking of the metrical divisions of music. b. a stroke of the hand, baton, etc., marking the time division or an accent for music during performance. cadencia f. Serie de sonidos, movimientos o acciones que se suceden de un modo regular o arm?nico: cadencia de una melod?a. Distribuci?n arm?nica de los acentos y las pausas de un texto: cadencia de un poema. En danza, armonizaci?n de los sonidos y los movimientos del bailar?n: la brusca cadencia del baile moderno. Ritmo, comp?s: la suave cadencia de su voz. ritmo m. M?S. Orden al que se sujeta la sucesi?n de los sonidos en la m?sica: lleva el ritmo con las palmas. Ordenaci?n armoniosa y regular, basada en los acentos y el n?mero de s?labas, que puede establecerse en el lenguaje: ritmo de acentuaci?n. Orden acompasado en la sucesi?n o acaecimiento de las cosas: el coraz?n le late con un ritmo irregular. Velocidad a que se desarrolla algo: andar a buen ritmo. _________________________________________________________________ Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/ From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 13:06:46 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Cadencia y ritmo, an example Message-ID: <46902.40142.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As an example of cadencias, one can take just about any clip of a dance by Tete (and Silvia, but not necessarily), especially when he (they) dance a vals. For example full of cadencias (at least as Tete teaches and explains and dances them) see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgv5kSRWZo especially two short ones starting at about 2:11. Does that fit your understanding of cadencias? ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com Tue Sep 2 09:26:04 2008 From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:26:04 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Learning vs. Practicing at Milongas (was: dull, dull, dull) Message-ID: <48BD3EEC.8010807@shahrukhmerchant.com> Caroline says: > It was only >> when I stopped classes and practicas and went to milongas only that I >> finally learned to ditch all the bad habits picked up from classes and >> rather overly opined beginner leaders in practicas that I discovered >> what Real Tango is. No question, as others have pointed out, that the real learning happens in the Milonga, but you cannot do all your learning at Milongas without being a nuisance to your partner and fellow dancers (especially for the man), or without missing or taking an unnecessarily long time to incorporate fundamental techniques that will improve your dancing (for both men and women). The way I like to think about it: One learns elements, figures and techniques at classes, but one learns _how to dance_ at the Milongas. This actually brought up in my mind the flip side: the unfortunate custom of teaching or practicing at Milongas (as opposed to practicas or classes). A lot has been said of this practice, especially of the "know it all" man who subjects a victim to an uninvited drawn-out lesson on the dance floor, but often enough one sees mutually consenting couples practicing some figure or the other at a Milonga as well (I don't mean trying to incorporate it into their dancing, but rather reviewing their class or favourite step or whatever). I mainly wanted to repeat a quote on this subject from Danel and Maria, which I remember well from my early and formative Tango years back in the Stanford Tango weeks: "You go to a Milonga to dance, not to practice. If you are practicing at a Milonga, ask yourself this question: WHAT EVENT IS IT THAT YOU ARE PRACTICING FOR?" Shahrukh From larrynla at juno.com Tue Sep 2 11:16:39 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:16:39 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Learning vs. Practicing at Milongas Message-ID: <20080902.081639.23413.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> Shahrukh Merchant writes ------> One learns elements, figures and techniques at classes, but one learns _how to dance_ at the Milongas. Exactly. Every time you do a movement, whether in a class, practica, or milonga, you are practicing. But the focus is different depending on the context. In a class you often are working on individual steps - preparing to do one, doing it with poise and precision, and following up. Or you are working on short combinations of steps. Or (now less often than when tango was new to non-Argentines) longer figures. In a practica you are dancing to a piece of music, but the focus of you and your partner is in putting together what you learned in (often the immediately preceding) class. The focus is still on technique. In a milonga you are practicing the emotional and esthetic side of dancing. Practicing enjoying the physical and emotional closeness with your partner, feeling emotionally (not just hearing physically) the music, and perhaps most of all having fun. It might seem as if people should not need to practice having fun. But I imagine everyone has seen plenty of people who obviously need it. They are the ones with grim faces, the ones who insist on their partner's being perfect. Who do not realize that mistakes are opportunities to practice recovering from errors, and sometimes the doorway to discovering a new way to do something. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com/ ____________________________________________________________ Home prices too high? Click here for interest only loans to buy the home of your dreams. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiekSy9XHb9as3cq6fWxnl3V6anKdpfas3v3IXOB2S5cWbtFg/ From larrynla at juno.com Tue Sep 2 11:58:59 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:58:59 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Cadencia y ritmo Message-ID: <20080902.085859.14984.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com> In Spanish as every other language the same word can have several meanings. Salida means exit, but also beginning. The second meaning comes from the first - you begin a voyage by leaving a house or train station or the sidelines of a dance floor. So with cadencia. One meaning is a general one, moving to the music. Beat and rhythm, compas and ritmo, are part of this movement. They have two different meanings. The beat is the underlying pulse of the music, which generally stays the same for the entire piece of music. Or stays the same for passages of the music. D'Arienzo (el rey del compas) was known for his audible steady beat, but also experimented with changing tempo in different parts of a piece. Rhythm builds on the beat but is not captive to it. The basic rhythm of the Argentine tango is slow-slow - ONE two Three four, where one steps on the major beats (the 1st and 3rd). This is the natural rhythm of walking. This is why a couple can learn to dance the tango (in a very simple way) in a half-hour or so. They already have most of the skills they need to have fun, to really dance rather than robotically do figures. But much of the power of tango is that traditionally dancers are allowed to depart from the basic rhythm for shorter or longer periods of time, then come back to it. The leader can replace a slow step with double, triple, or even faster steps. If he firms up his embrace his partner knows to keep pace with him. If he relaxes it she knows to keep to the basic rhythm. Thus tango can be primally simple or sophisticatedly complex. What is the specific meaning of cadencia? Most of my years (almost twenty) of dancing tango it meant stepping in place, as the military do when marching in place, keeping the cadence. Some people (including native Spanish speakers) use it to mean doing rock steps. Which goes to show that language is not produced by robots, but by changeable, error-prone, humans. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com/ ____________________________________________________________ Find loans exclusively for members of our military. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iihAxo5TbRAjHnyzlk8Yglrwq7lvOhxCrLOo6vb3KWwIEaMsK/ From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 13:14:54 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint Message-ID: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But......what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. So....if you didn't hear the complaints, were you part of the problem? Maybe in your communities it is OK to ask the men to dance. Maybe some men like it. But I am old school. I like to know that a guy asks me to dance to a specific musician, for a specific type of dance. I do a lot of sitting. But on Sunday, I was asked to dance by five of the best dancers at the festival. Certainly worth waiting for. Maybe next time the men won't be so polite or maybe they will decide not to come to a place where they have little say in choosing their dance partners. I hope not. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" The festival was fantastic. Tom, as usual, had everything well organized and the locals, led by Paul, provided us with a great hotel, excellent food, a good sound system and perfect weather. The semi-outdoor event was in an impressive space with some good Southwestern comida. And the country around Albuquerque and Santa Fe is some of the most beautiful you will ever see - especially Bandelier Nat'l Monument. Nancy A veteran of this festival and several others From robinctara at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 13:57:36 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:57:36 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809021057n4aaf2aaas1d88c09a8abf6981@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Nancy, I'm glad someone has the nerve to speak up. This has been going on for as many years as I have been dancing tango. It's worse in some places than others. I've even seen it happen in classes where women are asked to rotate. They don't seem to notice that some women have been standing and waiting for their turn to dance and when the time comes for a rotation, one sees the same women dancing and the same women standing. The men don't know who has been waiting because they're busy dancing, but the women know whether they just had a turn. We women need to have more respect and concern for each other. By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? I know that Diva Boutique wants to start attending Tom's festivals. She always brings hundreds of shoes and I think both the women AND the men would like to have such a big selection to choose from. She carries my stuff - Tara Shoes as well as Comme il Faut and some other brands, including men's shoes. Best, Robin Tara http://www.22tangoshoes.com On 9/2/08, NANCY wrote: > I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. > > I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But......what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. > > So....if you didn't hear the complaints, were you part of the problem? > > Maybe in your communities it is OK to ask the men to dance. Maybe some men like it. But I am old school. I like to know that a guy asks me to dance to a specific musician, for a specific type of dance. I do a lot of sitting. But on Sunday, I was asked to dance by five of the best dancers at the festival. Certainly worth waiting for. Maybe next time the men won't be so polite or maybe they will decide not to come to a place where they have little say in choosing their dance partners. I hope not. > > "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" > > The festival was fantastic. Tom, as usual, had everything well organized and the locals, led by Paul, provided us with a great hotel, excellent food, a good sound system and perfect weather. The semi-outdoor event was in an impressive space with some good Southwestern comida. And the country around Albuquerque and Santa Fe is some of the most beautiful you will ever see - especially Bandelier Nat'l Monument. > > Nancy > A veteran of this festival and several others > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From MACFroggy at aol.com Tue Sep 2 13:57:16 2008 From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:57:16 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[Tango-L]=20Labor=20Day=20Festival:=A0=20a=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?complaint?= Message-ID: I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive women. And this was years and years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is today. One woman friend from L.A. who I saw down here was being aggressive in the BsAs milongas, and I tried to suggest to her that the Argentine men don't like being pushed like that, and she told me that she was American and she was on vacation and she could do any damned thing she pleased! I can only say that when Ruben is accosted by a woman coming to his table to demand a dance, he might do it that one time because it's very difficult for a caballero to refuse a woman due to politeness, but then he will never dance with her again. So in the end, these women are only hurting themselves by "doing whatever damned thing they like!" Perhaps not too far in the future, these aggressive women will do all the leading as well. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) From robinctara at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 14:08:41 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:08:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809021108n1daee642yb20c9979769aa7c5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Cherie, Here's another story, I was standing in the milonga at a festival and one of the top professional dancers was giving me a neck massage. I had just had a conversation with a woman about how aggressive the women dancers were. How they would interrupt a conversation to drag a man away to dance. Then, out of nowhere, the SAME woman came up to me and grabbed my masseur for a dance!!! This North American woman and her North American husband now teach tango in Buenos Aires! Can you believe it? Robin Tara On 9/2/08, MACFroggy at aol.com wrote: > I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there > told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive > women. And this was years and years ago. > I can only imagine how much worse it is today. > > One woman friend from L.A. who I saw down here was being aggressive in the > BsAs milongas, and I tried to suggest to her that the Argentine men don't like > being pushed like that, and she told me that she was American and she was on > vacation and she could do any damned thing she pleased! > > I can only say that when Ruben is accosted by a woman coming to his table to > demand a dance, he might do it that one time because it's very difficult for a > caballero to refuse a woman due to politeness, but then he will never dance > with her again. > > So in the end, these women are only hurting themselves by "doing whatever > damned thing they like!" > > Perhaps not too far in the future, these aggressive women will do all the > leading as well. > > cherie > http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ************** > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel > deal here. > > (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 14:22:04 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:22:04 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Cherie wrote: > > I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there > told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive > women. And this was years and years ago. > I can only imagine how much worse it is today. In fairness to women, I've seen men behave just as poorly here in Phoenix when the ratio is such that there are way more men than women (which happens from time to time here). The same nonsense, guys who are already dancing picking off women before they even leave the floor, instead of letting somebody else have a turn. You pretty much have to be a totally aggresive jerk to get a dance, hovering around the women like a seedy horndog waiting to pounce, something which I for one refuse to do. Huck From robinctara at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 14:36:10 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:36:10 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809021136v6cef96b3oe7d8b86091a3b46a@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Huck, I'm sure that's true. It's also true that men need to speak up when women are being overly agressive. I am pretty sure that the guy massaging my neck didn't feel like dancing at that moment, but he didn't have the "cohones" to say so. Robin On 9/2/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Cherie wrote: > > > > I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there > > told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive > > women. And this was years and years ago. > > I can only imagine how much worse it is today. > > > In fairness to women, I've seen men behave just as poorly here in > Phoenix when the ratio is such that there are way more men than women > (which happens from time to time here). The same nonsense, guys who > are already dancing picking off women before they even leave the > floor, instead of letting somebody else have a turn. You pretty much > have to be a totally aggresive jerk to get a dance, hovering around > the women like a seedy horndog waiting to pounce, something which I > for one refuse to do. > > > Huck > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 14:52:35 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint Message-ID: <960204.76642.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As bad as it all is, the only way to prevent it from happening is to not accept such rude "invitations." But then you are blacklisted. The dynamic "rules" of behaviour emerge from chaos of human relationships, not from any written decrees. We can lament or we can adjust to make the best of any given situation. For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos Aires. So, if possible, I dance in place and start moving along when everyone else starts moving. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From stermitz at tango.org Tue Sep 2 15:35:17 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:35:17 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89069565-6D20-4BB4-8633-C81E5DED40EF@tango.org> Of course the unmentioned but related problem is gender balance. Obviously, the women don't like sitting, and the men don't like being on the spot. Even if they aren't being pursued, they feel guilty. Both are negative feelings. In general, women are more likely to take privates and spend money to travel for good tango. Guys face some performance anxiety issues when faced with the intensity of a crowded, energetic dance floor. It's just more daunting for the guys, and he has to deal with launching ideas and managing the crowded floors. If each tango city sends 4 men and 5 women to a festival, it doesn't sound like a problem, but when this gets applied to 300 dancers, you have 30 extra women. BALANCE LOCALLY If the overall problem seems overwhelming, let's divide it into smaller pieces where individuals can have an impact. I urge all festival attendees (women AND men) to talk around with your friends to see who may be coming from their own community, and to make efforts to balance locally. Recognize that the guys may need a little coaxing, especially if it is their first road-trip. Work out car sharing or roommates to help with costs. At the festival, take classes to meet and mix. It does help to show off your friends, and introduce them around; but you don't have to dance with them the whole time... trade them off to ladies from other communities. SECOND REASON TO BALANCE LOCALLY The purpose of a festival is to meet lots of new and old friends, create an intense dance experience and feel the excitement you get with a room full of good dancers. This can be a transformative experience. (I find that for the few days after a festival, the world is a pastel and dreary place, a sort of tango hangover). You don't want the festival to be just a pleasant memory. You want the transformative experience to continue when you return home, and that requires BOTH men and women to carry the festival energy. On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, NANCY wrote: > I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at > festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women > are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from > leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are > complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these > women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. > These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have > even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait > at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter > the venue. > > I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to > attend these events. But......what happened to 'waiting your > turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are > great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with > over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and > then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four > different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and > demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a > woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of > executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much > to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard > these complaints. > delier Nat'l Monument. > > Nancy > A veteran of this festival and several others From tango at bostonphotographs.com Tue Sep 2 15:43:09 2008 From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:43:09 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <960204.76642.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <960204.76642.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > As bad as it all is, the only way to prevent it from happening is to not > accept such rude "invitations." But then you are blacklisted. The > One can argue that being "blacklisted" by these women/men would be a blessing ... I actually don't mind women asking, as long as they understand that asking carries the risk of being rejected. I do ask specific women based on the music, based on my mood, by my energy level, etc. If people would say "No" a lot more, I think things would improve a lot in the north american tango. From stermitz at tango.org Tue Sep 2 15:47:13 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:47:13 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860809021057n4aaf2aaas1d88c09a8abf6981@mail.gmail.com> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860809021057n4aaf2aaas1d88c09a8abf6981@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53F40AC5-8D25-4903-A004-8CF1A8876C0E@tango.org> On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:57 AM, robin tara wrote: > Thanks, Nancy, > > By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in > Albuquerque? > > Robin Tara > http://www.22tangoshoes.com Robin, you know this isn't true. In fact there were shoes and clothes for sale. Not to mention, yoga in the morning and massage for your aching feet. You also know that I've been happy to welcome you to my festivals regularly. I know that you love to dance tango and get to participate with everyone else. However, I admit that I don't really emphasized vendors. With all due respect to your business, my purpose is to honor the dancing and the participants. Even the teachers at my festivals are not the big-name show dancers, rather people who can entertain a large class and who focus on social dancing. The only exhibition is a group social dance honoring and presenting the teachers. I do feel that the DJs deserve special recognition. They are the ones who manage the social energy and keep you dancing for hours, even to dawn. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org From nina at earthnet.net Tue Sep 2 16:17:55 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:17:55 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <89069565-6D20-4BB4-8633-C81E5DED40EF@tango.org> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <89069565-6D20-4BB4-8633-C81E5DED40EF@tango.org> Message-ID: <20080902141755.57pw8vrihwc0gg0k@webmail.earthnet.net> Hello, everyone, Gender imbalance and other explanations do not justify bad behavior. What Nancy had described *is* bad behavior. It shows poor boundaries, impulsivity and agression - all in service of getting what people want. This is the "stuff" that people carry with themselves in their lives. This is how they have learned to get what they want. To avoid having people's "stuff" spill out in the milongas, there are rules of conduct. Argentines, just like everyone else, have their "stuff". However, when they show up at the milongas, the rules provide the boundaries and guidelines for those individuals for whom their own boundaries are lacking. The codes of the milongas protect everyone from some people's bad behavior. The traditional codes are beautiful because they help people behave better than they might on their own. Best, Nina ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From robinctara at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 17:18:57 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 17:18:57 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <53F40AC5-8D25-4903-A004-8CF1A8876C0E@tango.org> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860809021057n4aaf2aaas1d88c09a8abf6981@mail.gmail.com> <53F40AC5-8D25-4903-A004-8CF1A8876C0E@tango.org> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809021418w75fbda6fv6f4f1c83f08f3422@mail.gmail.com> Tom, Sorry, but I heard there weren't any vendors. And later I heard that CarrieWhipple had a few shoes. Of course I knew that Anne Leva was there with her clothes, as always You may not emphasize vendors, and that's fine. Your festivals are wonderful experiences and people have a great time dancing and reconnecting with old friends. But there are a whole lot of people coming to festivals who want the opportunity to touch, feel and try some tango shoes for size. Back when there were a selection of companies selling at festivals people could compare and make informed decisions about what to buy. Many people don't have the opportunity to go to Buenos Aires for shoes and wait for festivals so they can know for sure what they're buying. I just think the organizers should recognize this and give their customers what they want. I think that if you polled your participants you would discover that they really want to have a good selection of clothes and shoes to choose from. Men as well as women. Robin On 9/2/08, Tom Stermitz wrote: > > On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:57 AM, robin tara wrote: > > > Thanks, Nancy, > > > > > By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in > > Albuquerque? > > > > > Robin Tara > > http://www.22tangoshoes.com > > > Robin, you know this isn't true. In fact there were shoes and clothes > for sale. Not to mention, yoga in the morning and massage for your > aching feet. You also know that I've been happy to welcome you to my > festivals regularly. I know that you love to dance tango and get to > participate with everyone else. > > However, I admit that I don't really emphasized vendors. With all due > respect to your business, my purpose is to honor the dancing and the > participants. Even the teachers at my festivals are not the big-name > show dancers, rather people who can entertain a large class and who > focus on social dancing. The only exhibition is a group social dance > honoring and presenting the teachers. > > I do feel that the DJs deserve special recognition. They are the ones > who manage the social energy and keep you dancing for hours, even to > dawn. > > > Tom Stermitz > http://www.tango.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 17:48:20 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint Message-ID: Robin Tara wrote: >> By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Wait - You mean the $150 shoes that my GF bought at the festival in Albuquerque were mythical?? Maybe the cash I gave her (glad they didn't take MC - the damage would certainly have been worse) ended up going for a massage or perhaps new dress from TangoLeva. The vendors were good! The classes were good! The milongas were good! The locals who provided transportation to the Sunday Milonga were wonderful. Thank you all. And especially, Tom - Thank you!! Paul (Albuquerque) - Thank you!! D. David Thorn _________________________________________________________________ See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts. http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008 From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 19:26:20 2008 From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:26:20 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint In-Reply-To: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <195543.96429.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3eff99210809021626p185ea587n56aa7ce1d95a219@mail.gmail.com> Hi Nancy, We have been in Buenos Aires (where it is not acceptable for women to request a dance) since late May, and we have just returned from spending 10 days in Uruguay, where we did a bit of dancing in Montevideo, The tango scene there is definitely more relaxed, with none of the pomp and ceremony of BsAs milongas. In Montevido, invitation to dance is effected by cabaceo or verbally, both from men and from women. The invitations (the verbal ones) were not pushy or demanding, and both acceptance or rejection was delivered in a friendly manner (think of a party where someone holding a tray of finger food comes over and offers some to you - either smile and say ?yes , thanks? or smile and say ?no, thank you? - neither person was left feeling pressured or regected, either way). My partner found it quite refreshing, actually. now we are back in Bs As for another 3 months of pomp and ceremony :) Back in our home city in Australia, where some women do ask for dances, my parnter does occasionally get frustrated with women either demanding dances, or making comments like ?you haven?t danced with me the past ... milongas?(like being given a friendly reminder from the phone company that you bill is overdue), or giving him the puppy dog eyes, begging look. He has a hard time rejecting these demands (he is simply a big pot of honey). Sometimes he would come home from a milonga feeling that he?d come back from a hard day?s work, rather than back from a pleasant night of dancing. I often tell him that he needs to toughen up, and If anyone should demand dances from him, it should be me, right? I do realise that, in a community where everyone knows everyone else, it is harder to avoid offending someone by saying ?no?. Maybe saying ?later? might be a better option for him and other men faced with a similar situation. In Australia, there has been many a time when having caught each other?s eye, the man is about to get up from his seat, when, out of nowhere, another woman grabs him and pulls him onto the dance floor. Aaaarrrggghh! When in Australia what I occasionally do is , while chatting to a friend, just when I am about to move on (end the conversation) I?ll say something along the lines of ?I?d love to have a dance later on?, smile and then walk away/back to my seat/get myself a drink etc. This way, the man (regardless of friendship) doesn?t feel pressured to dance with me on the spot - or at all, for that matter. It?s not a demand. It?s not begging. What it does do, however, is to give him the opportunity to ask me if or when he is ready/the music is right etc. Moreover, it is a way of letting him know that i do like dancing with him (something we all like to be reminded of, every now and then, regardless of gender). -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki www.tangotrails.blogspot.com From info at adagioconbrio.co.uk Wed Sep 3 11:11:20 2008 From: info at adagioconbrio.co.uk (info@adagioconbrio.co.uk) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:11:20 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Intervention Brooklyn Bridge- SATURDAY September 13 Message-ID: <25861159.31771220454680472.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Dear Tango-L list members and readers, i attended this event last year, crossing the Williamsburg Bridge (Manhattan-Queens) and it was really good fun! (dress and wear shoes accordingly though!). Please forward this to whoever might be interested. Please respond to robert lawrence (tangointervention at gmail.com) Greetings again Tangueros, Well it is finally set?. Saturday, Sept 13 at noon commences the next Tango Intervention in New York! We will dance across the Brooklyn Bridge this time, and I certainly hope many of you can join us again. I have some information up at www.tangointervention.org Please take a look at and let me know if you are interested in joining us again. I think this should be even better than last year, and everyone agreed that last years tango intervention was more than amazing. The structure will be similar in that we will start with personal audio systems and then change to amplified music on the bridge. This is subject to revision, but right now I am thinking that we will use the small audio systems till we get to the 1rst tower and then have a milonga there and at the Brooklyn side tower as well. There is quite a bit of room at the towers and not much on the paths so this seems like the best structure as I see it now. I am open to your suggestions though. I would also like to make a special appeal for volunteers to help out with some organizational aspect of this event. Last year I had a grant to get a couple students to help out, but USF has had a major budget crunch and the piggy bank is busted. If you or anyone you know could volunteer even just 20 or 30 minutes during the day of the event that would be great. I will particularly need help at the start of the event, getting newcomers oriented and set up with the mobile music systems. I am on sabbatical from USF this year, so Tango Intervention is my full time project now. I did one last may in Vienna that was great and I have others planned for Washington, Paris, Phnom Penh, Bangkok and Seoul. But first New York?. And VERY SOON! I hope this finds all of you doing well, dancing often and eager for another milonga over the East River! Abrazos, Robert PS some of you who simply can't get enough of tango intervening may be interested in checking out this other project by London based Thomas Linder. He is looking for participants for a public tango event on 9/11. You can get info at http://www.tangocommute.com/ -- Robert Lawrence www.tangointervention.org www.h-e-r-e.com 813 843 4921 From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com Wed Sep 3 16:17:36 2008 From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:17:36 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Partner rotation technique (was: Labor Day Festival: a complaint) Message-ID: <48BEF0E0.3090008@shahrukhmerchant.com> "robin tara" says: > I've even seen it happen in classes where women are asked > to rotate. They don't seem to notice that some women have been > standing and waiting for their turn to dance and when the time comes > for a rotation, one sees the same women dancing and the same women > standing. I used the following technique (as teacher, and the teacher really does need to take some responsibility for proper rotation) that I thought worked quite well for classes with a significant imbalance of men and women: I would explain that, owing to the large imbalance, the algorithm for a partner change was that when I would announce one, the group standing out (men or women as the case may be) would first get onto the dance floor and find a partner from any of those on the floor, and THEN the others would change partners. This at least guaranteed that (a) no one would be standing out two rotations in a row and (b) that those who were timid or didn't like being aggressive in finding a partner, or whatever, weren't being penalized by being left out always. And those who really wanted to practice mostly with their selected partner could do so at least every 2-3 partner changes. Works better with frequent partner changes. In practice, the group might need a reminder once more during the class and the really timid may need to be encouraged not to dilly-dally when a partner change was announced, but in general it worked well. (This of course doesn't address the much more complex issue of Milongas, which is what the thread was originally about.) Shahrukh From jayrabe at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:20:34 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 21:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Partner rotation technique (was: Labor Day Festival: a complaint) In-Reply-To: <48BEF0E0.3090008@shahrukhmerchant.com> References: <48BEF0E0.3090008@shahrukhmerchant.com> Message-ID: Another technique for partner rotation with gender imbalance: When time for a rotation (eg. if there are excess women/followers), have all the followers who were without partners stand in the circle in between two men. It often happens that when several women are without leaders, they will tend to cluster, standing together. This guarantees the ones in the middle of the cluster will remain without a leader (they're standing between two women). Having them stand between two men gives them a leader when the rotation happens. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 23:43:37 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Partner rotation technique Message-ID: <779345.64227.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> What my own teacher does if he he thinks there's going to be a gender imbalance in one of his classes is to phone up a few of his regular students to ask them to come along to act as dance partners. No charge of course. I always agree because I get a free refresher class and I get to meet the female students from other classes who I always see as potential future partners in the milongas. In business I think they call it a win-win situation. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Shahrukh Merchant > > I used the following technique (as teacher, and the teacher really does > need to take some responsibility for proper rotation) that I thought > worked quite well for classes with a significant imbalance of men and women: > From badrange at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 09:00:20 2008 From: badrange at gmail.com (Bernt Drange) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:00:20 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Posters of orchestra leaders Message-ID: <922698490809040600y7b24f57am63ed4a16ec3775d9@mail.gmail.com> Hi list, I was hoping you could help me locating posters of the greatest orchestra leaders - I wish to decorate the walls of my tango community's club house with pictures of at least D'Arienzo, Di Sarli, Troilo, Pugliese. Do you know if it is possible to buy such posters from somewhere? Either that, or get my hands on digital photos with a reasonable resolution so that I can print them out myself. Kind regards, Bernt From felixydelgado at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:29:31 2008 From: felixydelgado at hotmail.com (Felix Delgado) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 18:29:31 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Feedback Requested on Free Tango Classes & Milongas Message-ID: We have a student tango group at our university. This is the third year we are giving classes. The first year we gave classes and held milongas the events were free, because we wanted to attract people. Last year we charged a small fee for classes ($20 for a 6 week class) and the milongas were free for people taking classes, $5 for others. We hold the events in university space and we don't pay a rental fee. When we charged, the money went into a bank account to bring in visiting instructors, although we haven't done that yet. The first year, when events were free, we had more people in classes and mliongas, but there was more coming and going. There are only a few people who were regular. The second year, when we charged, we had fewer people in classes, but the milonga attendance was about the same. However, we tended to get the same people in the milongas each time. As we are starting our third year, I'm not sure what is best to suggest to our small club (20-25 people). We want to recruit more dancers, but we want them to come back. The ones who pay tend to come back. They also seem to be better dances, although it could be our teaching has improved and the level of dancing in our club has improved. I'm wondering what experiences readers of Tango-L have had in a similar situation. Felix _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 15:42:17 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Feedback Requested on Free Tango Classes & Milongas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <575311.54280.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> How about a fee that covers the entire semester instead of just an event? So if they pay for a milonga, they are part of the club for the rest of the semester? Maybe 2 different levels of club participation based on what they can afford. If they see themselves as part of a club, rather than just a one-time customer, it may increase their involvement. My experience has been mixed at universities. Undergrads don't have as much discretionary income as grad students or non-students. It's also a question of what you want students to pay for (e.g., classes versus workshops). If you charge, there's nothing to stop you from offering scholarships to those with talent but no income (the instructor can ask the destitute student to help gender-balance). With students, the initial attraction to attending milongas or classes is to meet other people. So you'll always lose people no matter what you do. I've offered some classes for free and I've also charged. Both had low rentention rates but those who still made it to the last class became excellent dancers, whether they paid or not. The free class attracted more students. Those in the paying class had more university staff. A university situated in a college town will have a more captive audience than one in a big city, so may be able to charge something. Perhaps a compromise will be to offer free beginning classes but charge for a higher level class. However, if you charge for a higher level class, there should also be an obvious reason for the charge to exist, such as professional-level instruction or the teachers going to workshops and teaching the material when they get back, funding a music library, etc. Just a few thoughts. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Felix Delgado wrote: > From: Felix Delgado > Subject: [Tango-L] Feedback Requested on Free Tango Classes & Milongas > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:29 PM > We have a student tango group at our university. This is the > third year we are giving classes. The first year we gave > classes and held milongas the events were free, because we > wanted to attract people. Last year we charged a small fee > for classes ($20 for a 6 week class) and the milongas were > free for people taking classes, $5 for others. We hold the > events in university space and we don't pay a rental > fee. When we charged, the money went into a bank account to > bring in visiting instructors, although we haven't done > that yet. > > The first year, when events were free, we had more people > in classes and mliongas, but there was more coming and > going. There are only a few people who were regular. The > second year, when we charged, we had fewer people in > classes, but the milonga attendance was about the same. > However, we tended to get the same people in the milongas > each time. > > As we are starting our third year, I'm not sure what is > best to suggest to our small club (20-25 people). We want to > recruit more dancers, but we want them to come back. The > ones who pay tend to come back. They also seem to be better > dances, although it could be our teaching has improved and > the level of dancing in our club has improved. > > I'm wondering what experiences readers of Tango-L have > had in a similar situation. > > Felix > > From jpsighe at sighes.com Fri Sep 5 07:00:09 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 04:00:09 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) Message-ID: <00cd01c90f46$91c2f450$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Videos uploaded... Give us a click here: http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html Jean-Pierre Sighe --------------------------------- TANGO MAGDALENA, LLC 580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305 Oakland, CA 94610 Ph.: 510- 836 0812 Web site : http://www.tangomagdalena.com From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 07:47:59 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 04:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) In-Reply-To: <00cd01c90f46$91c2f450$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Message-ID: <348528.14694.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Jean-Pierre, Thanks for sharing your video, however, it looks to me as if your partner allows her back to collapse during the carpa instead of maintaining a strong core. I think your video needs more information on that aspect and on what you mean by "support" so that the women are protected. The other point of confusion for women after they have learned a volcada is distinguishing when she's asked to lean or when she's invited to take a forward step. It's common for women to mistake a simple step forward as a volcada. That's something you might want to address as well. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: > From: Jean-Pierre Sighe > Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) > To: Tango-L at mit.edu > Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 7:00 AM > Videos uploaded... > Give us a click here: > http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html > > > Jean-Pierre Sighe > > > > --------------------------------- > TANGO MAGDALENA, LLC > 580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305 > Oakland, CA 94610 > Ph.: 510- 836 0812 > Web site : http://www.tangomagdalena.com > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 01:43:13 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint Message-ID: <101579.97398.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat?on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music before starting to dance but, IMO,?that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're chatting, not listening and, secondly,?the 5 seconds to make the embrace is surely enough to 'hear' the music. Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other partner dances. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dubravko Kakarigi > > For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor > and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos > Aires. > From tango at springssauna.com Fri Sep 5 12:53:27 2008 From: tango at springssauna.com (Tango Mail) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:53:27 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Talking on the floor (was Labor Day Festival: a complaint) Message-ID: <189F60CF01B84EA8B9054EB1E236E6CF@WIDOW> Jack, I typically chat with old friends in-between the songs, because we usually only meet at Festivals, and neither of us is going to be sitting down to chat. So, in order to catch up and to be interested in each others lives and developments, that occurs in-between the songs. Typically this chat gets put on hold and dancing begins at that 2nd measure mark, much like in BsAs. What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to know a young, proper, woman, and to impress her. JK ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:43:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jack Dylan Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint To: tango-l at mit.edu Message-ID: <101579.97398.qm at web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat?on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music before starting to dance but, IMO,?that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're chatting, not listening and, secondly,?the 5 seconds to make the embrace is surely enough to 'hear' the music. Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other partner dances. Jack From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 12:59:13 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:59:13 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat (was Labor Day Festival: a complaint) In-Reply-To: <101579.97398.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <101579.97398.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jack wrote: "I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose?" ----- I heard somewhere that in the early days of tango, the time before the music started was the only time that a young man could talk to a young woman out of earshot of her chaperons. Obviously this may be pure myth... J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 13:25:08 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:25:08 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: > I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat on the dance floor. Just what is its > purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music > before starting to dance but, IMO, that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're > chatting, not listening and, secondly, the 5 seconds to make the embrace > is surely enough to 'hear' the music. > > Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment > on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other > partner dances. > > Jack > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Dubravko Kakarigi >> >> For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor >> and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos >> Aires. > Many of the couples dancing don't know their partner. Men and women sit in separate sections and invite to dance with a cabeceo. This brief conversation allows them to get to know each other a little because walking up to a table to start a conversation with a stranger would be going against the codes of behavior in a milonga. This is also a time to arrange outside the milonga meetings. It also serves a purpose of allowing additional couples to enter the dance floor after the start of the tanda. It is also true that this 'chit-chat' does not generally occur during 'tandas' of the non-tango music played in the milongas of Buenos Aires (jazz, Rock 'n Roll, cumbia, salsa, chacarera et al.) Ron From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 13:57:46 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Talking on the floor (was Labor Day Festival: a complaint) Message-ID: <813478.568.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was told by a porteno that the men use that time to listen to the music and decide how they will dance it given the woman in their arms. Small talk, getting to know one another, sharing info about other milongas or discussing the music are ways one can spend that time. Whatever it is, I really like it. It makes me more comfortable and connected to my partner. Perhaps in your own community you already know the folks very well ( or too well?). Nancy From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:06:19 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:06:19 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat (was Labor Day Festival: a complaint) In-Reply-To: References: <101579.97398.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Jay Rabe wrote: > Jack wrote: "I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose?" > ----- > I heard somewhere that in the early days of tango, the time before the music started was the only time that a young man could talk to a young woman out of earshot of her chaperons. Obviously this may be pure myth... Perhaps, but even today in an old-school milonga, single men and women will be seated separately. So a man and a woman have no opportunity to converse at the table, it is a no-no (rightly so) to talk while dancing, which leaves only the time between songs out on the dance floor to chat. Huck From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:10:57 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:10:57 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat an Argentine custom Message-ID: It was said: "What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to knowa young, proper, woman, and to impress her. " It is not proper for a man to sit by the woman at the milonga but not due to our "Catholic upbringing". It is the custom that women that wish to dance with different partners sit alone or in the company of other women. People in Argentina are extremely respectful of any starting or on going relationship between a man and a woman. So if a woman allows a certain gentleman to sit by her, or if she walks from the street in the company of a man, or if she in any form or manner shows special interest in a particular man, the other men will not ask her to dance. If a woman comes alone to the milonga but it is known that she is in a relationship with a man (who is not present at the moment), the other men will not ask her to dance. (except perhaps by close friends of both of them). So if a lady wishes to dance with different partners she has to be perceived as being unattached. If a man is interested in a particular lady,he will have to invite her for a cup of coffee at a certain bar, where they will meet after the milonga. (Here is the importance of the little chit-chat between tangos). They both, the lady and the gentleman will leave the milonga separately and keep this relationship secret for a while, till they decide that they wish to dance only with each other. The woman declines any invitation to dance out of respect for her companion. Recently I arrived to a milonga and saw a beautiful lady sitting across the room, I stared, she stared back and nodded, but remained sitting. I approached her table - she said - I would love to dance with you but at the moment I have company (he had gone to the restroom) - perhaps on another occasion - she added with a smile. I still remember the first time I went to dance in the USA. I met a very attractive girl; we danced, we laughed, we talked, we sat together. Everything was perfect till a male friend of hers came to the table and asked her to dance - she said to me - I will be right back - and went to dance with him. I felt deeply disappointed and left that place (country dancing) as fast as I could. As to chaperones... this is another story... Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From jpsighe at sighes.com Fri Sep 5 14:10:17 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:10:17 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) References: <348528.14694.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011601c90f82$aad1c890$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Hi Trini, If her back were to collapse, she would instantly become very heavy, almost slipping away under me and most importantly, she would not be able to sustain such pressure on her back. I can affirm to you that none of that happens. My lovely partner can stay there in the carpa as long as I keep here there, with no problem. Your point reminds me of a comment someone made some years ago, after watching Marcela Duran stay in the carpa and yet, moving into a Salida (which is VERY, VERY difficult to do, as the mastery of balance needs to have been acquired). The comment was that she has an "abnormally supple back"... By SUPPORT, I mean 1/ starting out by establishing the contact, NOT from the chest as a lot of people think. The immediate illusion in the close-embrace is the false contact from the "chest-down". It is not. The contact should go from the "abdominal-up", in other words, from the "solar plexus-up". 2/ firmly holding her back in the embrace, as if you would put an imaginary cask to hold her back. 3/ firmly holding your own torso with no wavering, to complete the support. That is the support she needs. From there, she will indeed "let go" and come to your chest. If the support is not there, she will by instinct resist, or fight the leaning; why? because, she would be on her way to falling. Your second point: "The other point of confusion for women after they have learned a volcada is distinguishing when she's asked to lean or when she's invited to take a forward step" You are here describing what would happen if the carpa is not set properly, which is the point I'm bringing up in my article and the clip. If the carpa is set properly, it implies that you share her axis. Therefore, the signal she will get from you will be that of simply staying with you. She could not feel separated to the point of taking a step. Cordially, Jean-Pierre S. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) > Jean-Pierre, > > Thanks for sharing your video, however, it looks to me as if your partner > allows her back to collapse during the carpa instead of maintaining a > strong core. I think your video needs more information on that aspect and > on what you mean by "support" so that the women are protected. The other > point of confusion for women after they have learned a volcada is > distinguishing when she's asked to lean or when she's invited to take a > forward step. It's common for women to mistake a simple step forward as a > volcada. That's something you might want to address as well. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: > >> From: Jean-Pierre Sighe >> Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) >> To: Tango-L at mit.edu >> Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 7:00 AM >> Videos uploaded... >> Give us a click here: >> http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html >> >> >> Jean-Pierre Sighe >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> TANGO MAGDALENA, LLC >> 580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305 >> Oakland, CA 94610 >> Ph.: 510- 836 0812 >> Web site : http://www.tangomagdalena.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Tango-L mailing list >> Tango-L at mit.edu >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 14:20:22 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat Message-ID: <800789.28071.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is all very interesting. And I am sure the 30 sec chat serves various intended purposes. However, all I need/want to know about my dance partner I learn through dancing with her, not through talking with her. Actually having any spoken conversation is very distracting for me. But, hey, my purpose for dancing is not to "meet people" but to dance and enjoy music ... so I go ahead and dance. Does anyone know if it is considered rude to dance (in place) during those 30 chat seconds? I never had anyone tell me so, but perhaps people might just be too polite to complain. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From imhmedia at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 14:44:07 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:44:07 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat an Argentine custom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C17DF7.5000509@yahoo.com> yes , this is all true in terms of the "talk" time between dancing, especially in more socially restricted times... but I've also had many people in BsAs, including some key milongueros, tell me it is because of the /music... /a good dancer wants to hear the beat before he starts ( and there were many tango songs with long intros before the "beat began")... it is so wonderful to dance in a crowded BsAs milonga where everyone is just standing, and then all of sudden, as if by secret code, everyone starts dancing at the same time. Unforgettable! I. Sergio Vandekier wrote: >It was said: > >"What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to knowa young, proper, woman, and to impress her. " > > > > From nina at earthnet.net Fri Sep 5 15:05:28 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:05:28 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat an Argentine custom In-Reply-To: <48C17DF7.5000509@yahoo.com> References: <48C17DF7.5000509@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080905130528.1313nyniww8o8wsg@webmail.earthnet.net> When women are very young, they want men to talk to them. It is the only way they know how to connect. This is "female". Girls are not only born that way, but also socialized. When women mature, some loose their attraction to talk because they have heard a lot and not much is new. They also have other ways of recognizing the meaning of various interactions and their importance. It is very interesting to see and hear adolescent boys talk about the girls they like - they are not eager to talk to them. Instead, they are happy to see them, even from a distance. They know that they need to talk to her, if they have any intentions of asking her out, but seeing the girl seems much more important. I am always amazed at how the boy-girl interaction repeats itself in a man-woman interaction in tango. Watching the people in the milongas internationally for years, I have observed that the moment the dance stops, the women's mouths begin to move. Some never stop. They sit down and don't stop talking. It is easy to chat when the dance experience is simply pleasant and inconsequential. The words don't happen when it is something else. But the chit-chat also can help people feel safe - from each other, from themselves. There is an old saying - "Men love with their eyes, and women love with their ears." In my experience living in Argentina, the men of that culture know this little piece of wisdom. Best, Nina > Sergio Vandekier wrote: > >> It was said: >> >> "What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was >> that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl >> with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been >> proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a >> chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and >> how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to knowa young, >> proper, woman, and to impress her. " >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 15:06:35 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 19:06:35 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 second chit-chat an Argentine custom Message-ID: Most people go to the milonga to dance, to immerse themselves in the world of the milonga. Every code has a reason to exist. The 30 seconds between tangos are used as described by Ilene and Nancy to "get the feeling of the music". Most people arrive to the milonga, greet their friends, with a smile or a kiss in the cheek and sit at the table. They order some wine or something else to drink, and listen to the music for a while till they are relaxed and feel the need to dance. Once "in la pista" (the dancing floor) they face their partner and wait for a moment to get the feeling of the music. You cannot jump and start dancing with the first beats of a tango like a robot, you need a moment to "feel" the music to be able to make an interpretation , in the meantime you wait for the other dancers to start moving and only then you bend your knees and start dancing with passion. Otherwise you would be dancing any tango the same way, automatically...it may be done but the feeling is different. It is not bad manners to dance in place, it is "different", a good follower may think she did not have time to immerse herself in the music. Regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From tangosmith at cox.net Fri Sep 5 15:10:18 2008 From: tangosmith at cox.net (tangosmith@cox.net) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:10:18 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint Message-ID: <380-22008955191018504@M2W023.mail2web.com> This same delay in the start of dancing occurs in the danzon. The introduction, or about the first 16 measures, are not danced. When the introduction is then repeated during the music, the dancers stop again. Danzon originated in Cuba from a French contradance by way of Haiti. If you believe that the danzon and tango have similar roots (both are based on the habanera), this delayed start would indicate some commonality. The danzon is still danced in Cuba and Mexico, particularly Veracruz and Mexico City. Original Message: ----------------- From: Jack Dylan jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:43:13 -0700 (PDT) To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat?on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music before starting to dance but, IMO,?that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're chatting, not listening and, secondly,?the 5 seconds to make the embrace is surely enough to 'hear' the music. Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other partner dances. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dubravko Kakarigi > > For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor > and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos > Aires. > _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Fri Sep 5 15:37:27 2008 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:37:27 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit chat, was labor day complaint Message-ID: Jack Dylan asked about the reason for the 30 seconds that seems idle "chit chat" after the music starts. Here's is one possible explanation that comes to my mind, I am sure there are others. It goes along with the BA tradition of clearing the floor during the cortina, which has other obvious benefits of partner change that seem to be unappreciated at most milongas here. Many dancers have preferred partners for certain orchestras, and type of music, whether milonga, vals, or tango. After the cortina, it takes a bit of time to hear what is coming on, send the cabaceo to the preferred partner, and get on the floor with her. My guess is the idle chit chat time is longer at the start of a new tanda, and shorter between the pieces during the tanda. Also, even within the same tanda, it just seems more civilized to allow everyone to take a breath and start again more or less together in the ronda, rather than rushing in to get every second of dance, which is not too elegant, and probably futile, if everyone ahead of you is proceeding to re-enter the embrace in a more relaxed manner. InBA, there is more of a feeling that the entire room is moving and breathing as one, more respect for the line of dance, and the couples are moving in the ronda more or less at the same speed. Here, you can have bumper car feeling, or try to move in a vals and come across landmines of people who use the vals to stay in one spot and hold up the line of dance. Do you ever get the feeling the couple ahead of you on the dance floor are listening to something else, maybe on an Ipod? Well, when everone starts more or less at the same time, it facilitates a natural tendency to move together, like a multi-celled self calibrating organism. I have a question for you-- do you release the embrace between each song, or stay latched on to your partner waiting for the music to restart? I think it feels really nice to ( softly ) release the embrace, and then gradually re-enter it again. But that's just me. Curious to see what others think. Martin Nussbaum NYC From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 15:48:57 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] 30 second chit-chat an Argentine custom Message-ID: <368127.33858.qm@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If there were any ladies on this list who might have danced with me, they could testify that I do not "just start like a robot." There are way too many assumptions here about how and why I dance (I won't argue about that, not important what you may think of me personally) and why I do not care for the prolonged chatting (how long does it take for you to recognize a song, after all? 30 seconds? I don't think so. Robot? I don't think so). I must add, though, that I just can not see how I can focus on feeling the music while chatting. I must be deficient in that, multitasking, department. Oh well, different strokes for different folks. ----- Original Message ---- From: Sergio Vandekier ... > It is not bad manners to dance in place, it is "different", a good follower may think she did not have time to immerse herself in the music. However, one good reason for the pause for (at least) the first song in a tanda was given above -- consideration for the partner's way for getting into the music. Thank you. That was a good and welcome insight (when applicable). Why not? If that is what it takes for the lady to feel comfortable, it is worth it. Especially if it is part of the alure of dancing in the first place. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From larrynla at juno.com Fri Sep 5 15:50:15 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 19:50:15 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) Message-ID: <20080905.125015.26678.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Jean-Pierre Sigh? writes in the following link -------> The Cruzada MUST be lead and not just assumed. http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html Actually ALL parts of a volcada combination must be lead. The volcada is just the extreme lean. Lean + amague/front boleo + cruzada is a popular combination, but it's only one of many that start with the lean. The dibujo ("that famous arc on the floor") during the amague/front boleo is an adorno. Like all women's adornos it is the woman's option to do it or not. If the man is hurrying the combination she will likely leave it off. The video accompanying Sigh?'s text is one of the best YouTube videos of several dozen I've seen which shows lots of volcada combinations, not only because of its video quality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4n81J4zkyc The whole dance is a good example of how to dance with a lady new to a man. The very first volcada, near the beginning, is just a lean. She is tipped off balance, with weight forward of her toes, making it a true volcada. (The word comes from volcar - to upset, overturn, tip over or knock over.) And it is only a slight lean. This way the leader can tell if his partner can and will do a lean, rather than panicking and stepping forward with her free foot to regain her balance. Later on he does a more extreme lean but adds a zarandeo (shake, a twisting around the vertical axis). She adorns this by lifting her free foot so that she does almost a boleo to the left and the right. Another good example of a couple testing their mutual body language. There are many other volcada combinations, including a carousel, in the rest of the video. Good selection, Jean-Pierre Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning assistance! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieke7kEnwQOFwALxT1s6avyrvAdM0MB9xFBgw5j67zoCxDvM/ From MACFroggy at aol.com Fri Sep 5 16:05:36 2008 From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:05:36 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit chat, was labor day complaint Message-ID: Here in Buenos Aires it's part of the codigos that because the tango is so intimate, between the music during the chit-chat time, there is no touching of the other person. Kind of a time to return to normal, before taking up the intimate embrace again. It's actually considered bad manners for a man to hang-on to his partner during the interval, such as keeping his arm around her or holding her hand. This is the cool-down period, and it underlines that the close embrace is the tango dance position, not "something else." cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 18:53:46 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 22:53:46 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Robot dancing Message-ID: Estimado Dubravko, I have never seen your dancing. I assume that you are a very good tango dancer. I really believe this on the basis of your comments about tango, milongas, culture, your visit to B.A., etc Your name frequently comes up in Tallahassee, Florida as well. My reference to robot dancing was a general one, I wanted to emphasize that every orchestra plays different music and that it is necessary to listen carefully before starting to dance. IMO you can have small talk while at the same time you "take the feel of the music". But you certainly can get this "feeling" in less than 30 seconds. My apologies, I certainly did not intend to offend or to judge something that I do not know, but if I knew the way you dance I would not judge it either. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 19:08:47 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Robot dancing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <396878.3681.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Although I have already replied to this thread I thought more about why I like the chat time between songs within a tanda. I also like the eye contact. Argentine men have a way of looking deeply into one's eyes - whether it is passing on the street, across a cup of coffee, or doing a simple business negotiation. It may or may not be sexual, but it is certainly intimate. And when one has just danced a tango and there are more coming, it deepens the connection and the feeling of partnership and sharing of a moment; when I, as a follower, feel that I am not just 'someone' that he is dancing with, but THE SOMEONE he wants to be dancing with. I feel cherished. I feel cared for. I am trusting. I give myself to him for another three minutes. The tango doesn't start with the music. It starts with the look of the cabeceo, the greeting kiss and then the embrace. Nancy From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 21:08:32 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Robot dancing Message-ID: <129924.57611.qm@web31906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Sergio (and other members of this group): Thank you for your kind words -- no offense was taken, indeed. I fully support everything you said. Regardless of how proficient one is with anything, luckily, there is always more to learn. I really came to believe that "the more you know, the more you know you don't know" is not just an empty saying. Dear Nancy, I'd love to see you at a milonga. I cherish those few electrifying moments of slow connection, the eye contact, the smile as we approach each other to dance; the slow, give-and-take completion of the embrace; feeling my partner breathe. I am very grateful to any woman who dances with me, it is quite a gift. So, yes, when you dance with me, you are definitely very special, those moments with you as we dance never ever to be repeated. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 19:18:14 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Alberto Dassieu y Paulina Spinoso Message-ID: <903753.93023.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alberto Dassieu y Paulina Spinoso http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=FP7QjkwiNsE I really like this guy and so I post his infrequent videos when they appear on YouTube. His Vals is very beautiful but here he is dancing the slo Tango. It's kind of like a slow conversation. At least he doesen't talk nor 'instruct' as he dances..he feels it. From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com Sun Sep 7 13:03:09 2008 From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:03:09 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat Message-ID: <48C4094D.8060804@shahrukhmerchant.com> True enough that this seems more natural in Buenos Aires than elsewhere. Probably because of the relative anonymity and size and flux of the community, one is often dancing with people unknown to you, and it's a way of greeting that person and having a small conversation. But that is not the entire explanation, since it is common to do so with everyone you are dancing with, even if you know him or her well. The music is part of the explanation as well--not just to hear it, since true that doesn't need more than a few seconds, but rather to start the internal flow with the music even before you start dancing outwardly. Dubravko Kakarigi says: > ... However, all I need/want to know about my > dance partner I learn through dancing with her, not through talking > with her. Oh, not at all for me (regardless of whether or not I would like to "have a coffee with her" later, or even another tanda for that matter). The natural connection of a (verbal) conversation absolutely affects the subsequent "tango" conversation. All I can say that the dances in the rest of the tanda after the first chit-chat period are much more comfortable for me, since I am dancing with someone who in some sense has become more "real" (after even a semi-superficial conversation). > Actually having any spoken conversation is very distracting > for me. As far as talking *during* the dance, I think most people would agree with you. It is even distracting for me when other couples near me are talking while dancing! > Does anyone know if it is considered rude to dance (in place) during > those 30 chat seconds? I never had anyone tell me so, but perhaps > people might just be too polite to complain. I don't think it's considered rude in and of itself, though it could be perceived as trying to rush people around you to get started, which could be annoying depending on how crowded the floor is and how subtly you manage to do so. It is unusual enough that certainly in Buenos Aires you would be identified as a newcomer to (Buenos Aires) milongas. There have been a few instances when perhaps because of my mood or that of my partner, no conversation develops in those 30 seconds, but one still stands silently in place. Sometimes it feels natural, sometimes a little weird (since almost all the other couples ARE chatting during this time), but it's still not a reason to get started prematurely. Oh, one other "data point": this is strictly for *between* songs in a tanda, not at the end of the tanda, nor before the first song. For the first song, usually one would have entered the floor after the first 30 seconds anyway, but even if you got on the floor after 5 seconds, you would take the dance hold almost right away, maybe be still a few seconds longer than usual depending on your preference of starting on certain musical phrasing, but not really do any chit-chat until the end of the first song. If you get on the floor at the beginning of the second or subsequent song of the tanda during the chit-chat period, you would wait out the rest of the chit-chat period (I generally rarely chit-chat then if it's someone I don't know since no "dance connection" has been established). All of this sounds like over-analysis and it probably is. This is not what I'm consciously thinking of at the time, of course, but an after-the-fact attempt at recreating what happens for the curious who haven't experienced it themselves. For those going to Buenos Aires for the first time, it's not something to worry about at all. Just be aware of it, and you'll probably find that you'll flow into the rhythm rather naturally. It is not common outside Buenos Aires, but I like it enough and it is now enough of a habit that I do the chit-chat automatically if I am dancing elsewhere as well. The only problem that that has created if I don't know the woman I'm dancing with, she sometimes thinks that I don't want to dance with her anymore and I'm stalling by chatting before walking her off the dance floor mid-tanda! I explain and we laugh if off together (and yes, all that creates a type of extra little bond that helps the subsequent Tango connection!), but then I do try to shorten the chit-chat a little or at least try not to look like I'm stalling! Shahrukh From jpsighe at sighes.com Sun Sep 7 14:45:30 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 11:45:30 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) References: <20080905.125015.26678.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <023001c91119$e9885390$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Thank you Larry for your additional useful information and comments. I agree with you 110% when you say : "Actually ALL parts of a volcada combination must be lead" ! Have a great day. Jean-Pierre S. -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) Jean-Pierre Sigh? writes in the following link -------> The Cruzada MUST be lead and not just assumed. http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html Actually ALL parts of a volcada combination must be lead. The volcada is just the extreme lean. Lean + amague/front boleo + cruzada is a popular combination, but it's only one of many that start with the lean. The dibujo ("that famous arc on the floor") during the amague/front boleo is an adorno. Like all women's adornos it is the woman's option to do it or not. If the man is hurrying the combination she will likely leave it off. The video accompanying Sigh?'s text is one of the best YouTube videos of several dozen I've seen which shows lots of volcada combinations, not only because of its video quality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4n81J4zkyc The whole dance is a good example of how to dance with a lady new to a man. The very first volcada, near the beginning, is just a lean. She is tipped off balance, with weight forward of her toes, making it a true volcada. (The word comes from volcar - to upset, overturn, tip over or knock over.) And it is only a slight lean. This way the leader can tell if his partner can and will do a lean, rather than panicking and stepping forward with her free foot to regain her balance. Later on he does a more extreme lean but adds a zarandeo (shake, a twisting around the vertical axis). She adorns this by lifting her free foot so that she does almost a boleo to the left and the right. Another good example of a couple testing their mutual body language. There are many other volcada combinations, including a carousel, in the rest of the video. Good selection, Jean-Pierre Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning assistance! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieke7kEnwQOFwALxT1s6avyrvAdM0MB9xFBgw5j67zoCxDvM/ _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From jpsighe at sighes.com Sun Sep 7 14:45:30 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 11:45:30 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) References: <20080905.125015.26678.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <023001c91119$e9885390$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Thank you Larry for your additional useful information and comments. I agree with you 110% when you say : "Actually ALL parts of a volcada combination must be lead" ! Have a great day. Jean-Pierre S. -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) Jean-Pierre Sigh? writes in the following link -------> The Cruzada MUST be lead and not just assumed. http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol12_august08.html Actually ALL parts of a volcada combination must be lead. The volcada is just the extreme lean. Lean + amague/front boleo + cruzada is a popular combination, but it's only one of many that start with the lean. The dibujo ("that famous arc on the floor") during the amague/front boleo is an adorno. Like all women's adornos it is the woman's option to do it or not. If the man is hurrying the combination she will likely leave it off. The video accompanying Sigh?'s text is one of the best YouTube videos of several dozen I've seen which shows lots of volcada combinations, not only because of its video quality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4n81J4zkyc The whole dance is a good example of how to dance with a lady new to a man. The very first volcada, near the beginning, is just a lean. She is tipped off balance, with weight forward of her toes, making it a true volcada. (The word comes from volcar - to upset, overturn, tip over or knock over.) And it is only a slight lean. This way the leader can tell if his partner can and will do a lean, rather than panicking and stepping forward with her free foot to regain her balance. Later on he does a more extreme lean but adds a zarandeo (shake, a twisting around the vertical axis). She adorns this by lifting her free foot so that she does almost a boleo to the left and the right. Another good example of a couple testing their mutual body language. There are many other volcada combinations, including a carousel, in the rest of the video. Good selection, Jean-Pierre Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning assistance! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieke7kEnwQOFwALxT1s6avyrvAdM0MB9xFBgw5j67zoCxDvM/ _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From jpsighe at sighes.com Tue Sep 9 06:02:55 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 03:02:55 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Fun with a Milonga-Candombera Message-ID: <001b01c91263$3cd787b0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfu2wOG154 Jean-Pierre Sighe ------------------------- TANGO MAGDALENA, LLC 580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305 Oakland, CA 94610 Contact: 510-836 0812 Website : http://www.tangomagdalena.com From alohatango2002 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 9 12:25:43 2008 From: alohatango2002 at yahoo.com (Ernest Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. Message-ID: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Love the clip of Jean-Pierre and Bianca having fun at the docks just like old Argentina. There should be something regular done out there, like a milonga or something. I have a few videos out there of various styles of tango including candombera, canyenguero and funky milongas too. Check them out. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ernest+maricela&search_type=&aq=f Ernest from Chicago www.tangolifeinc.com From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 13:34:03 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:34:03 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. In-Reply-To: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Ernest Williams wrote: > On 2008/9/9 Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfu2wOG154 > > Love the clip of Jean-Pierre and Bianca having fun at the docks just like old Argentina. I thought the volcada lesson posted last week was very good, but I have to give a thumbs down on the URL above. Deer lowered, he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken dance at a wedding reception. Huck From jpsighe at sighes.com Tue Sep 9 14:25:30 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301c912a9$7723aed0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Thank you Ernest, Great clips of you and Maricela too. We will contribute more :-) We do have our OUTDOOR MILONGAS at the Lake Merrit Park on the 1st and 3rd Saturday of the month (unless otherwise posted on our web site). Check out some pictures here: http://flickr.com/photos/elenadopiro/sets/72157605125863105/show/ http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Pictures_Galleries/Gallery5/index.html Tangamente, Jean-Pierre S. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:25 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. > Love the clip of Jean-Pierre and Bianca having fun at the docks just like > old Argentina. There should be something regular done out there, like a > milonga or something. > > I have a few videos out there of various styles of tango including > candombera, canyenguero and funky milongas too. Check them out. > > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ernest+maricela&search_type=&aq=f > > Ernest from Chicago > www.tangolifeinc.com > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From jpsighe at sighes.com Tue Sep 9 15:40:42 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 12:40:42 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01c912b3$f42485d0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Huck sounds like one of these stiff dudes I see here and there, with no rhythm in their bodies... therefore terribly boring to watch. Dancing means... DANCING. Why don't you post a clip of Chuck dancing (anything) for the rest of us. Would you? Jean-Pierre Sighe ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huck Kennedy" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Ernest Williams > wrote: >> On 2008/9/9 Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfu2wOG154 >> >> Love the clip of Jean-Pierre and Bianca having fun at the docks just like >> old Argentina. > > I thought the volcada lesson posted last week was very good, but > I have to give a thumbs down on the URL above. Deer lowered, he waves > his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken > dance at a wedding reception. > > Huck > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 04:56:12 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 01:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. Message-ID: <195085.37200.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, I would like to see a video of Huck not 'waving his arms around' and then we could all decide if it qualifies as 'dancing'. I liked these videos because they definately were dancing. I found it refreshing that some people actually dance to tango music. ...that is; instead of posing, instructing, doing acrobatics, thinking/planning a lot, suffering or getting the hoop ready for the follow to jump thru, etc, etc. ..'Tango Amerikano' is such a repository for perfectionist one-up-manship and Nerd engineering...duh. When do they dance? Well, for sure they will sit out the Milonga songs. From tempehuck at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 17:58:35 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:58:35 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. In-Reply-To: <005b01c912b3$f42485d0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> References: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <005b01c912b3$f42485d0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: > > Huck sounds like one of these stiff dudes I see here and there, with no > rhythm in their bodies... therefore terribly boring to watch. DOH!!! That finally explains the mystery of why all these women keep calling me "Stiffy." :-) > Dancing means... DANCING. Indeed. Mr. Sighe unwittingly mentioned it himself above when he said "rhythm in their bodies," the elephant in the room being, "not in their arms." Find me an Argentine instructor who advocates that sort of arm movement and I'll gladly reconsider my opinion. > Why don't you post a clip of Huck dancing (anything) for the rest of us. > Would you? This is as good a time as any to discuss posting videos to Tango-L, since over the past few months it seems to have become the latest rage. First of all, let's dispense with the ridiculous before moving onto the sublime. For those who say, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, well let's see your video if you're so smart!!," I would ask, what are you going to do for your next parlor trick, ask film critic Roger Ebert to post an example of his latest movie, since he has so much to say about other people's movies? Secondly, it would never even occur to me or the many people I know who are good dancers to post videos of themselves on the internet, as though we were somehow special--but hey, to each his own. If we did, however, we would not expect ourselves to be immune to critique, or get all upset and indignant when it came. If we found the critique useful, we'd apply it and be thankful for having received it; if not, we'd just ignore it. So--what are we on Tango-L supposed to do with all these videos people keep posting? What is the point of posting them, if we can't use them as a teaching exercise and discuss what we like and what we don't like about them? Is this like in kindergarten where everybody gets a trophy? What are we Tango-L readers to make of all these videos, when we see dancing at least as good if not better everytime we go to a festival, or in many cases, every time we go to our own local milongas, week in and week out? Huck From jpsighe at sighes.com Wed Sep 10 19:55:56 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:55:56 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: <513557.71152.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com><005b01c912b3$f42485d0$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Message-ID: <004501c913a0$c6b31510$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Huck Kennedy, Let's go point by point. You seem to sharp for me. Please, bear with me. 1/ Are you a poor dancer? Just checking. > > Indeed. Mr. Sighe unwittingly mentioned it himself above when he > said "rhythm in their bodies," the elephant in the room being, "not in > their arms." Find me an Argentine instructor who advocates that sort > of arm movement and I'll gladly reconsider my opinion. 2/ A stiff body will not comprehend what having rhythm in the body means or implies. I would submit to you that a movement in the arm is perfectly fine AS LONG AS : a/ it does not negatively impact the partner. In fact, if both partners are in sync, they will BOTH participate in that rhythmic adornment, thus, DANCING together. b/ It's not done all the time, but just from time to time to increase the grooving (but then again, "increase the grooving" would be foreign to a stiff body). > >> Why don't you post a clip of Huck dancing (anything) for the rest of us. >> Would you? > > This is as good a time as any to discuss posting videos to > Tango-L, since over the past few months it seems to have become the > latest rage. 3/ Huck Kennedy, don't think that every one on this list suffer from the same disease you suffer from (whatever it might be). I personnaly do ENJOY all the videos posted by other dancers. It is great to see people having fun with their thing. You can always use the "delete" button to avaoid watching. That's what an adult would do, in my opinion. Stop the whinning about people expressing their freedom of expression. > > First of all, let's dispense with the ridiculous before moving > onto the sublime. For those who say, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, well let's > see your video if you're so smart!!," I would ask, what are you going > to do for your next parlor trick, ask film critic Roger Ebert to post > an example of his latest movie, since he has so much to say about > other people's movies? > > Secondly, it would never even occur to me or the many people I > know who are good dancers to post videos of themselves on the > internet, as though we were somehow special--but hey, to each his own. > If we did, however, we would not expect ourselves to be immune to > critique, or get all upset and indignant when it came. If we found > the critique useful, we'd apply it and be thankful for having received > it; if not, we'd just ignore it. > > So--what are we on Tango-L supposed to do with all these videos > people keep posting? What is the point of posting them, if we can't > use them as a teaching exercise and discuss what we like and what we > don't like about them? Is this like in kindergarten where everybody > gets a trophy? > > What are we Tango-L readers to make of all these videos, when we > see dancing at least as good if not better everytime we go to a > festival, or in many cases, every time we go to our own local > milongas, week in and week out? 3/ Huck Kennedy, once again, we live in a FREE society. You got that????? If you want to attck someone (notice how different is an "attck" from a "criticism"), be strong enough to sustain your attack, when put on the spot. In other words, some scoundrels who have populated fora on the Net for too long, just love to attack other people behind their ridiculous nicknames, but cannot offer any clip of themselves dancing anything, to the rest of us. Then, all of a sudden, you encounter them at a milonga, you watch them "dance" and you just shake your head! Stop the whinning and just post a clip to us!!!!!!!!!!!! Cordially, Jean-Pierre Sighe --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 01:17:35 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <818025.8771.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Sean Here, Your criticism is spot on Huck. But how to defend your point? How would someone who has never experienced sublimation understand what is missing when they "groove"? IMHO, you have a better chance of explaining color to a blind man. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ? --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: Deer lowered, he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken dance at a wedding reception. Huck From railogic at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 01:54:22 2008 From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. In-Reply-To: <818025.8771.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <162158.89705.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> But how to defend your point? >> Huck, be brave,? just post your video :)..bring it , don't be shy:)). ? --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. To: "Tango-L" Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 12:17 AM Sean Here, Your criticism is spot on Huck. But how to defend your point? How would someone who has never experienced sublimation understand what is missing when they "groove"? IMHO, you have a better chance of explaining color to a blind man. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ? --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: Deer lowered, he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken dance at a wedding reception. Huck _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From jpsighe at sighes.com Thu Sep 11 02:04:43 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:04:43 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: <818025.8771.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005301c913d4$4d116570$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Monsieur Trini Sean, Why don't you teach me and the rest of those you know so well, the "sublimation" Wooooh! You must be something! I can't wait to learn from you. In the meantime, I hope you were able to comprehend the last lesson I expose to you in my last e-mail. Your question and point were so full of indignant ignorance. By the way, where could I actually see you "sublimation" demonstrated on a video clip? Please, send me a link. I loooove to learn!!! Jean-Pierre S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" To: "Tango-L" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. > Sean Here, > > Your criticism is spot on Huck. But how to defend your point? How would > someone who has never experienced sublimation understand what is missing > when they "groove"? IMHO, you have a better chance of explaining color to > a blind man. > > Sean > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make > Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! > http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: > > Deer lowered, he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer > doing the chicken dance at a wedding reception. > > Huck > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 02:27:03 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:27:03 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc Message-ID: MHO in this discussion is that one should not criticize in a negative form other people's dancing. At the most one could say I do not like the way he dances, or I like his dancing style ... If absolutely necessary one can have a general discussion of movements of the arms in milonga candombera but without putting anyone on the spot. ...everyone is entitled to have his own style. I do not think that Jean-Pierre deserves any criticism, quite the opposite, he should be congratulated. He (IMO) is obviously doing a great job, his dancing style is elegant, has great sense of the rhythm, he has taken the time to share his accomplishments with us, videos and beautiful pictures. He is a good dancer. Even more, if you knew "Candombe" or "Milonga Candombera" you would think that Jean-Pierre is dancing according to the style. The Milonga candombera is different from the regular milonga, it may adopt certain movements of the body and the arms, imitating the Candombe itself. I am enclosing some examples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWM1cr4m78 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3cDacCNX0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpvVMvPVmN8&feature=related Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From jpsighe at sighes.com Thu Sep 11 03:23:40 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:23:40 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: <162158.89705.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201c913df$531fd680$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Let's encourage his alter ego, the Trini fellow. Please, post the "sublimation" demo for the rest of us. I'm burning to learn!!!!! Jean-Pierre S. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iron Logic" To: "Tango-L" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. >>> > But how to defend your point? >>> > Huck, be brave, just post your video :)..bring it , > don't be shy:)). > > > > --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. > To: "Tango-L" > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 12:17 AM > > Sean Here, > > Your criticism is spot on Huck. But how to defend your point? How would > someone > who has never experienced sublimation understand what is missing when they > "groove"? IMHO, you have a better chance of explaining color to a > blind man. > > Sean > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make > Argentine > Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! > http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: > > Deer lowered, he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer > doing > the chicken dance at a wedding reception. > > Huck > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From jpsighe at sighes.com Thu Sep 11 03:34:14 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:34:14 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc References: Message-ID: <008c01c913e0$ccba8e30$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Thank you Sergio, for providing the few examples. Jean-Pierre S. ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sergio Vandekier" To: "Tango-L List" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:27 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc MHO in this discussion is that one should not criticize in a negative form other people's dancing. At the most one could say I do not like the way he dances, or I like his dancing style ... If absolutely necessary one can have a general discussion of movements of the arms in milonga candombera but without putting anyone on the spot. ...everyone is entitled to have his own style. I do not think that Jean-Pierre deserves any criticism, quite the opposite, he should be congratulated. He (IMO) is obviously doing a great job, his dancing style is elegant, has great sense of the rhythm, he has taken the time to share his accomplishments with us, videos and beautiful pictures. He is a good dancer. Even more, if you knew "Candombe" or "Milonga Candombera" you would think that Jean-Pierre is dancing according to the style. The Milonga candombera is different from the regular milonga, it may adopt certain movements of the body and the arms, imitating the Candombe itself. I am enclosing some examples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWM1cr4m78 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3cDacCNX0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpvVMvPVmN8&feature=related Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From alohatango2002 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 05:41:04 2008 From: alohatango2002 at yahoo.com (Ernest Williams) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc In-Reply-To: <008c01c913e0$ccba8e30$0310a8c0@Desktop1> Message-ID: <893113.77955.qm@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I thought this example too relevant to miss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hx81RhyPXk Notice the arm movement here. The arm movement is actually necessary in order to get your partner to move with the quickness and light-heartedness of this dance. The dance also incorporates a sort of a bouncing vertical movement in the footwork (characteristic of candombe) requiring a vertical lead which often manifests itself in the whole body including the arms. Tango rules do not always apply to milonga, milonga-candombera and canyengue. In most cases these dances existed before the "sublime" rules associated with tango liso existed. These dances have different characteristics, so much so that they have different names. I think this is just a case of not understanding what the characteristics of milonga-candombera are and judging it through tango-liso eyes. Now one can decide that they don't care for milonga-candombera as a style as long as it is understood that it is a style that many people appreciate and love to watch even if they can't do it themselves. I hope this helps. Ernest www.tangolifeinc.com --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote: > From: Jean-Pierre Sighe > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc > To: "Sergio Vandekier" , "Tango-L List" > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 3:34 AM > Thank you Sergio, for providing the few examples. > > Jean-Pierre S. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sergio Vandekier" > > To: "Tango-L List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:27 PM > Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc > > > > > > MHO in this discussion is that one should not criticize in > a negative form > other people's dancing. At the most one could say I do > not like the way he > dances, or I like his dancing style ... If absolutely > necessary one can have > a general discussion of movements of the arms in milonga > candombera but > without putting anyone on the spot. > > ...everyone is entitled to have his own style. > > I do not think that Jean-Pierre deserves any criticism, > quite the opposite, > he should be congratulated. He (IMO) is obviously doing a > great job, his > dancing style is elegant, has great sense of the rhythm, he > has taken the > time to share his accomplishments with us, videos and > beautiful pictures. He > is a good dancer. > > Even more, if you knew "Candombe" or > "Milonga Candombera" you would think > that Jean-Pierre is dancing according to the style. > > The Milonga candombera is different from the regular > milonga, it may adopt > certain movements of the body and the arms, imitating the > Candombe itself. > > I am enclosing some examples. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k&feature=related > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWM1cr4m78 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3cDacCNX0 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpvVMvPVmN8&feature=related > > Best regards, Sergio > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden > secrets? from Jamie. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 8 23:56:42 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Volcada (instructional video) Message-ID: <704890.43255.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Trini, You asked a good question that, IMO,?Jean-Pierre didn't really answer. I think he is doing what I often do and is treating the Carpa and the Volcada as 2 separate figures, with the Carpa being a prelude?to the Volcada.. However, as has been correctly pointed out by Larry and others, the Carpa itself is a Volcada. Your question, if I read it correctly, is how does the lady knows to lean, i.e. go into a Carpa,?rather than take a forward step. Jean-Pierre's answer seems to start after the Carpa has been executed. It's a good question because many inexperienced ladies will indeed take a forward step when the man steps back, while intending to lead her into a Carpa. What I've been taught is something many call 'suspension'. It involves a staightening of the knees resulting in a slight rise of the chest and is used, for example, when executing the Calesita, even?without the?lean. When in 'suspension' the lady will not make a step, whatever the man does, until the knees are relaxed and the suspension is released. I'd be interested to hear other views on this. ? I also agree with Trini's view that Jean-Pierre's partner allows her back to 'collapse' in the Carpa, rather than staying straight. While her upper body is vertical, her lower body is angled at approx. 60deg. That might be OK for a trained dancer with good flexibility but not a good example for an untrained dancer trying to learn a Volcada. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jean-Pierre Sighe > > Your second point: > "The other point of confusion for women after they have learned a volcada is > distinguishing when she's asked to lean or when she's invited to take a > forward step" > > You are here describing what would happen if the carpa is not set properly, > which is the point I'm bringing up in my article and the clip. If the carpa > is set properly, it implies that you share her axis. Therefore, the signal > she will get from you will be that of simply staying with you. She could not > feel separated to the point of taking a step. > From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 13:49:13 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:49:13 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) Message-ID: Ernest wrote: >> Tango rules do not always apply to milonga, milonga-candombera and canyengue. >> In most cases these dances existed before the "sublime" rules associated with >> tango liso existed. These dances have different characteristics, so much so that >> they have different names. >> I think this is just a case of not understanding what the characteristics of >> milonga-candombera are and judging it through tango-liso eyes. Ernest: Thank you for your posting. I have very much enjoyed watching you dance, both on youtube and in person. You do actually dance! It looks like fun! There are some excellent and well researched books out there dealing with the history of tango, and explicitly with its African origins. That a number on this list lack the required education to understand the consequences of this history, and of the various styles that long predated modern "Social Tango", is easily remedied. Read. Learn. You might for example start with Tango: The Art History of Love by Robert Farris Thompson. Cheers D. David Thorn _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 14:13:17 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) Message-ID: <605655.55118.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: David Thorn ... > Ernest: Thank you for your posting. I have very much enjoyed watching you dance, both on youtube and in person. You do actually dance! It looks like fun! I second the above notion. I too enjoyed very much Ernest and Maricela's dancing both on YouTube and in person. Plus they are both very nice and above all humble persons. Kudos! Now, I really got intrigued by what they and others call milonga candombera. Ernest, what would you say is the main few characteristics of milonga candombera? It does not quite follow the candombe as such, does it? given that candombe is not a couple's dance and the rhythms are different, aren't they? I read Jean-Pierre's on-line article where he talks, among other things, about 'the ?floating? quarter of the beat ending the phrase,' but it did not help me much. I am familiar with and am actually an aficionado of milonga c/ traspie. But there is much more to it in Jean-Pierre's and Ernest/Maricela's dancing. I sort of get the feeling of it, but hesitate to let loose lest it become a caricature of a milonga c/ transpie. You might say - so what. I just don't know. Please help. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From tempehuck at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 14:50:38 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:50:38 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga candombera, canyenguera, etc In-Reply-To: <893113.77955.qm@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <008c01c913e0$ccba8e30$0310a8c0@Desktop1> <893113.77955.qm@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Ernest Williams wrote: > > I thought this example too relevant to miss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hx81RhyPXk > Notice the arm movement here. The arm movement is actually necessary in order to get your partner to move with the quickness and light-heartedness of this dance. Whoa. First of all, let's get this out of the way right off the bat: I hate to say "never," but...independent (from the body) arm movement is almost never necessary to get your partner to move. Now, to proceed to your video cite above: There is a huge variety of arm movement in this video, but most of it is not of the type I criticized, to wit, independent gratuitous time keeping with the arm (or arms) that has almost nothing to do with what's going on in the body, the sort of left arm movement we see a lot of in 0:17 through 0:36 of the Sighe video, to provide just one example. > Tango rules do not always apply to milonga, milonga-candombera and canyengue. Claro. > I think this is just a case of not understanding what the characteristics of milonga-candombera are and judging it through tango-liso eyes. Absolutely not. The very next video I clicked on (Omar Vega) shows a clear distinction from the Sighe video. http://tinyurl.com/5ovtlj Notice how there is way more going on in the body and legs, which you'd intuitively think would be even more of an excuse to move the left arm, yet for the most part Omar isolates what's going on in the body and legs from the left arm. You don't see his left hand bobbing up and down 5 or 6 inches at a clip like a metronome keeping time, independent from the body frame. Now, to go off on a bit of a tangent, remember how I said I hate to say "never" above--if you look at Omar's video from about 0:58 through 1:10, you'll see his right wrist moving to aid in the lead of the front ochos. Whether or not this is strictly necessary (or whether it is really cause or actually just effect of her movement) might be a subject for another debate, but many old-school Argentines do it and as such it would have to be considered authentic, although I've seen some teachers frown on it. So that's at least an arguable rare exception to the rule about independent arm action not being necessary to induce movement in the follower. > Now one can decide that they don't care for milonga-candombera as a style Ewww, how tragic. I pity those people. Huck From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 17:21:06 2008 From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <605655.55118.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <633985.38971.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You could start here... I haven't read the entire article for a while. Still... http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A31481 a review/inerview with the author of Tango: An Art History of Love (Pantheon, 2005) ? ? --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: From: Dubravko Kakarigi Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject) To: "tango-l" Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:13 AM ----- Original Message ---- From: David Thorn ... > Ernest: Thank you for your posting. I have very much enjoyed watching you dance, both on youtube and in person. You do actually dance! It looks like fun! I second the above notion. I too enjoyed very much Ernest and Maricela's dancing both on YouTube and in person. Plus they are both very nice and above all humble persons. Kudos! Now, I really got intrigued by what they and others call milonga candombera. Ernest, what would you say is the main few characteristics of milonga candombera? It does not quite follow the candombe as such, does it? given that candombe is not a couple's dance and the rhythms are different, aren't they? I read Jean-Pierre's on-line article where he talks, among other things, about 'the ?floating? quarter of the beat ending the phrase,' but it did not help me much. I am familiar with and am actually an aficionado of milonga c/ traspie. But there is much more to it in Jean-Pierre's and Ernest/Maricela's dancing. I sort of get the feeling of it, but hesitate to let loose lest it become a caricature of a milonga c/ transpie. You might say - so what. I just don't know. Please help. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From buchboot at earthlink.net Thu Sep 11 20:51:29 2008 From: buchboot at earthlink.net (Moti Moses Buchboot) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:51:29 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga-Candombera, Canyenguero etc. References: Message-ID: <007d01c91471$b1afacb0$6600a8c0@your9efcb93c24> As long as we are all posting, I thought I'd share something I have done a little while ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9jjykTpO7c please note the hand movement, the leg bounce, especially the booty shake. What the heck, how about see how we smile and have fun. Cheers Moti From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 20:53:54 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Video and Criticism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <831655.40969.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hola Sergio, Sean again. I appreciate the efforts you have made for more than a decade to preserve the civility of this list, and I have a great deal of respect for the opinions you express here. But I must respectfully disagree with you regarding the criticism of videos presented to the list. Often, videos are presented as "educational" tools. In that case, they certainly should be critiqued in the same way we all judge any other pedagogical discourse. At best, the videos are cited as examples supporting a particular position. In that case, they should certainly be critically examined to determine if they actually apply to the case at hand. We've seen that done remarkably well by both sides in the "candombera, canyenguera" thread. A third possibility is that the videos are simply offered as entertainment, in which case someone ought to review their entertainment value before the rest of us waste bandwidth downloading them. I do agree that that would be rude to merely criticize someone's dancing in response to a video clip. The problem is that valuable criticism of a video will undoubtedly also be perceived as a personal attack on the author's dancing. That is the unavoidable risk of posting a video to the list. But it is no greater risk than posting any other form of expression to the list. In my opinion, Huck made a fair criticism of the video which in fact resulted in an interesting and informative follow up discussion. If it progresses, that discussion might even change some people's opinions about the matter. But the intelligent responses were somewhat delayed; the initial response was an ad homenin attack on Huck's dancing. I made a humorous response to the ad homenin attack. (I know, some people are offended by my humor, and a lot of people don't get it at all. I post to entertain a small but loyal fan club.) (Hi guys!) Of course, I (and my innocent partner Trini) were also subjected to ad homenin attacks, but hey, we laugh in the face of adversity. We can take it because girls like to dance with me almost as much as boys like to dance with her. And in the end, the only relevant judges of a social dancer are the partners that accept or decline to dance with him or her. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 01:15:59 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] That arm thing Message-ID: <38319.67038.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi all, Trini, here. Since no woman has yet responded on this subject, I'll give my two cents worth. Personally, I dislike having my arm being bounced up and down in milongas or tango. It's tiring, it's uncomfortable, it distracts from the dance. I'm not some kind of wind-up toy. There may be women who like to bounce with their arms when they dance. Whatever. I prefer to make my expressions meaningful and organically. Excess movements diminishes that expression - even if it's something as playful as milonga. But that's just me. Happy milongas to all, Trini From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU Fri Sep 12 10:25:05 2008 From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:25:05 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Fun with a Milonga-Candombera Message-ID: <48CA7BC1.30902@mit.edu> The original poster of this obviously didn't read the list rules (particularly of the strictness on the ones about flaming) and has to have set a new record for the number of violations in a 48-hour period. He obviously wasn't on review before, and he obviously is now. That aside, it may be useful to review some of the postings on this thread: The original posting was a 1-liner: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfu2wOG154 followed by 6 lines identifying the poster and his Tango business. One-liners including links to youtube videos (or links anywhere for that matter) that don't add some meaningful discussion are not permitted on Tango-L. In addition, the purpose of this posting appeared to be entirely self-promotion, which is not the purpose of Tango-L either. There *are* two ways to achieve this on Tango-L: one is the 1-time introduction permitted to anyone who wishes to announce their Tango presence and services to the list (in which links to videos would be relevant and may be included), and the other is as part of the 3-line signature permitted on otherwise relevant-to-Tango-L postings. The fact that parts of this thread were nonetheless constructive is a credit to those list members (yes, especially Sergio) who were able to distance themselves from the pettiness, but doesn't justify the lack of civility in other postings. Notwithstanding all that, reviews of professionals' offerings ARE explicitly permitted on Tango-L but with strict restrictions to ensure that they are made as a service to the community and not just to attack a competitor, or be mean-spirited, etc. So it is true that having posted a video implicitly saying, "Look at me, am I not great?" one must be prepared to accept that some would respond disagreeing (and those are the ones more likely to respond). However, the tone of the following response (by a poster who is normally a good contributor, including later postings on the same thread) was unfortunate as it was designed to ridicule rather than be a constructive review: > Deer lowered, he waves > his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken > dance at a wedding reception. The following response (also from a poster with other good contributions), while slightly more subtly ridiculing, essentially had the same objective, and would not qualify as a review or constructive response either, even though it was undoubtedly sincerely felt: > Your criticism is spot on Huck. But how to defend your point? How > would someone who has never experienced sublimation understand what > is missing when they "groove"? IMHO, you have a better chance of > explaining color to a blind man. But neither of those responses justified the subsequent flaming and bickering by the original poster, which is what got him on review (not the original 1-liner video which would just have got him a reminder). But as some marketing types say, "There's no such thing as bad publicity," so if indeed self-promotion was the idea, I'd say it worked (I certainly wouldn't have bother to watch the video had it not been for the subsequent discussion)! :-) Shahrukh Merchant Tango-L and Tango-A administrator tango-L-owner at mit.edu P.S. As far as the video itself ... maybe I'll post my opinion too, or more likely just consider the horse well beaten. From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 10:25:38 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Milonguero - Eduardo El Nene Masci Message-ID: <110692.30137.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Eduardo Masci is, to my taste, the best living Tango liso dancer in the world. I actually produce tears when I see a new video of his dance...O.K. I'm weird. His taste in music is exquisite and his dance makes love to it. Anyway, I will always post a thread when I find such a treasure....enjoy! http://youtube.com/watch?v=ktw5UVHSMv4 From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 12 16:19:09 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:19:09 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Videos and criticism, the right arm lead Message-ID: Sean says: 1- "Often, videos are presented as "educational" tools. In that case, they certainly should be critiqued in the same way we all judge any other pedagogical discourse. 2 - In my opinion, Huck made a fair criticism of the video which in fact resulted in an interesting and informative follow up discussion." Huck's comment "he waves his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken dance at a wedding reception." 3 - Trini says: "Excess movements diminishes that expression - even if it's something as playful as milonga. But that's just me. " 4 - Jean-Pirre 's video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfu2wOG154 1 - I agree, we should use a video as an educational tool. What I said was that there is no need to use personal attacks, to ridicule or to humiliate a poster. It is more constructive if somebody says - I would like to know the general opinion on movements of the left arm in milonga candombera, I personally find it unnecessary, not esthetic etc. Then he is giving a personal opinion (see Trini #3) on a dancing subject without using a personal attack, to ridicule (see #2). Going back to the video in question; I do not know Jean-Pierre, in the past he attacked me writing pages and pages, calling me all sort of names (bigot, etc.) because I dared to say that the tango was not "invented" by blacks... ...but I tried to be objective; he calls his video, "Having fun with milonga candombera", as far as I know nobody danced that way till recently when some pertinent music appeared or reappeared and people started to "re-invent" the milonga candombera as a new stile of dancing milonga. These facts, "having fun with" and the inexistence of this style till recently gives the dancer a lot of latitude with respect to artistic interpretation of the music. It required like in the case of Ernest, a detail study of the candombes in Montevideo, for instance. Notice that Jean-Pierre not only moves his left arm, he places it on his chest and at waist level. As to Huck's comments, 1 - "Find me an Argentine instructor who advocates that sort of arm movement and I'll gladly reconsider my opinion." 2- "What is the point of posting them, if we can'tuse them as a teaching exercise and discuss what we like and what wedon't like about them?" As a general rule of ballroom dancing, we do not move the left arm but as I just said this is a "re-discovered" "re-invented" style. This gives lots of latitude for individual interpretation. You can say: I like or dislike the way John dances without personal attacks that waste a lot of our time, and then offer some base to your opinion as a subject for discussion. As to the movement of the right arm to lead front ochos or whatever,(this is another example of *** (prejudice" based in ignorance of the different styles of tango).*** Most people that dance in open embrace will use the right arm to lead, the ones that use "only" the chest are those that "only" dance close embrace. Notice : I could have omitted the ***() paragraph in parenthesis with the same final result, by not having omitted it, I run the risk of offending Huck, which is totally unnecessary. I did it on purpose to show an example. I sincerely apologize to Huck before hand. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU Fri Sep 12 16:51:10 2008 From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:51:10 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] For the record (and to give credit where it's due ...) Message-ID: <48CAD63E.1050401@mit.edu> I got a very nice (and sincere) response from Mr. Jean-Pierre Sighe "understand[ing] the importance of keeping a certain standard that helps every body in the long run." (If only this this were the attitude of more people who are reminded of their responsibilities to follow the rules of the forum or really in some cases that of basic civility ....) I think we can look forward to future good (and passionate-but-hopefully-flame-free!) contributions from him. Regards, Shahrukh P.S. Other feedback to my mail: From a long-time member: "You do a SUPER job. I hope you know we all appreciate your work. I know it is thankless, but MANY of us who mostly read and seldom post really appreciate what you do for our world wide tango community." [Thanks!] From a former poster (on review for chronic flaming but apparently chooses not to post now anyway): A "reminder" of the US Constitutional First Amendment. [Will keep that in mind for when Tango-L gets promoted to "Congress" status or receives significant State Powers.] From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 17:57:16 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:57:16 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Fun with a Milonga-Candombera In-Reply-To: <48CA7BC1.30902@mit.edu> References: <48CA7BC1.30902@mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator Shahrukh wrote: > > So it is true that having posted a video implicitly saying, "Look at me, > am I not great?" one must be prepared to accept that some would respond > disagreeing (and those are the ones more likely to respond). However, > the tone of the following response (by a poster who is normally a good > contributor, including later postings on the same thread) was > unfortunate as it was designed to ridicule rather than be a constructive > review: > >> Deer lowered, he waves >> his left arm around more than a drunk partygoer doing the chicken >> dance at a wedding reception. Two bads on my part contributed to this: First, I was replying to someone else who had commented on the video, and was working on an erroneous assumption (of my own making) that a third party had found the video on the internet and posted it (which is the usual case on Tango-L), rather than the actual dancer himself. That's my fault for just plain old not paying enough attention to attribution details, and I apologize for that. And secondly, having spent the first 20 years of my life in the NYC area, I'm prone to outrageous hyperbole. When we say, for example, "it cost us an arm and a leg," we don't really mean it literally. While most of the time that hyperbole and other types of humor add to the charm of a posting, by now I should know that everyone doesn't have the same upbringing, and doesn't necessarily share the same sense of humor, and that if I'm not careful it can come across as a bit insensitive at times to people who grew up elsewhere in the US, and even more so to non-US readers like Sergio. Oh well, perhaps we can take this lemon and make lemonade out of it: The next time we're dancing and we notice our left arm taking on a life of its own, we can say to ourselves: "Arm? Excuse me, arm? The bride hasn't even thrown the bouquet yet, and already you're doing the chicken dance!" Huck From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 18:28:59 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:28:59 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Videos and criticism, the right arm lead Message-ID: <66950E97-F059-4966-9CDD-BB4D95D2DE91@gmail.com> Sergio writes > he calls his video, "Having fun with milonga candombera", as far as > I know nobody danced that way till recently when some pertinent > music appeared or reappeared and people started to "re-invent" the > milonga candombera as a new stile of dancing milonga. These facts, > "having fun with" and the inexistence of this style till recently > gives the dancer a lot of latitude with respect to artistic > interpretation of the music. Since this is a new style of dancing milonga, I wonder if it is recent enough that we can trace its origins. I wonder who coined the term "milonga candombera". And who, if anyone, teaches or hands down this style to others? I wonder where Jean-Pierre learned to dance this way, or if it is his own invention that he calls by a name that "seems to fit." How do names for tango "styles" arise and become attached to dance forms? How do these "styles" begin to harden into a codified recognizable form, each with their own techniques and rules about what is acceptable? Several years ago some people on the tango-l were talking about "candombe-milongas", and I didn't have any idea what they were talking about. Then I found music such as "Azabache", "Siga El Baile", "La Rumbita Candombe", "Carnivalito" ... etc. I assume that this type of music is what people mean by "candombe-milongas". But this music is, to my way of thinking, older. From the 1940s, I think. Is "milonga candombera" the way of dancing associated with candombe- milongas? If so, when did the recent revival of dancing to this music start? -Joe From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 19:19:15 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:19:15 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Videos and criticism, the right arm lead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: > > Notice that Jean-Pierre not only moves his left arm, he places it on his chest and at waist level. The placing of the left hand on the chest to me seems both authentic and a perfectly normal reaction to being in a very crowded milonga. As far as the waist thing goes, I would put that in the category of personal style, with one caveat: It involves sticking out the elbow, which would make it acceptable for a performance, but something I for one would consider to be rude behavior in a crowded milonga. I remain committed to my opinion that the up and down movement of the left hand exemplified in 0:17 to 0:36 is just plain poor technique. > As a general rule of ballroom dancing, we do not move the left arm but as I just said this is a "re-discovered" "re-invented" style. This gives lots of latitude for individual interpretation. But does it really? It's not like the old timers haven't danced this style of milonga before. They have, and they still do. And they don't wag their arms. > As to the movement of the right arm to lead front ochos or whatever,(this is another example of > > *** (prejudice" based in ignorance of the different styles of tango).*** > > Most people that dance in open embrace will use the right arm to lead, the ones that use "only" the chest are those that "only" dance close embrace. > > Notice : I could have omitted the ***() paragraph in parenthesis with the same final result, by not having omitted it, I run the risk of offending Huck, which is totally unnecessary. I did it on purpose to show an example. I sincerely apologize to Huck before hand. As though we don't already have enough examples. This strikes me as you just cynically trying to get away with pretending to not be insulting by playing cutesy games. You're also just plain off target, because I happen to dance in both open and close embrace, and more to the point, clearly stated that I have no problem whatsoever with Omar's move. I also think you're overgeneralizing by attempting to divide everything up into an open vs. apilado war. With regard to the specific arm movement being discussed, to wit, the movement of Omar's right wrist to aid in the lead of the front ocho, the disagreements I recall were between various open embrace teachers, not between open vs. the chest people. In apilado, your right hand is never even in the position Omar had in the first place, so why would the subject of that particular wrist maneuver even come. Huck From romerob at telusplanet.net Fri Sep 12 22:04:02 2008 From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Videos and criticism, the right arm lead Message-ID: <1221271442.48cb1f920fcb3@legacywebmail.telus.net> My 2 cents: >Since this is a new style of dancing milonga, I wonder if it is recent enough that we can trace its origins.< I think Juan Carlos Caceres gets the credit for the music with his "Tango Negro" composition, and his promotion of Candombe and Murga. He injected fresh blood into this type of music. >I wonder who coined the term "milonga candombera". And who, if anyone, teaches or hands down this style to others?< Think of other terms like Tango/Milonga, Tango/Habanera, Bolero/Tangueado, etc., The Milonga Candombera is a Milonga played with Candombe rhythms, or rather using drums or drumming effects to accentuate the rhythm in the music. Eduardo Capussi and Mariana Flores worked on this style, and came up with interesting choreography maybe 9 - 10 years ago. Cheers, Bruno From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 22:49:19 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Message-ID: <169173.52168.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Igor, I'm prepared to believe that it's possible to lead the lady into a Carpa or to Apilado without using suspension and that's one reason why I posted. But, as I need to make a backward step to initiate the lean, you haven't explained why the lady won't make a corresponding?forward step. I know that suspension works [but not always] and?I'd like to know what else would work. Maybe contra-body rotation? I.e moving my left shoulder back, while stepping back with my right foot. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Igor Polk > > I think no any "suspension" is necessary. > I am going to lean when she can not make a forward step. > It is the same answer to the question "how to go to apilado". > From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sat Sep 13 12:00:31 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:00:31 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean References: <169173.52168.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79FB78C119CC4830ABFEB6A03F55F5FA@michaelditkoff> Jack: Think of a calesita. The woman doesn't step while it's executed. Why? The man is supposed to give her a very slight lift, like leading the cross. The lift tells the woman "Don't Step." When leading the cross, the lift tells the woman "Don't move your right foot" and the only foot she moves is the left into the cross. In the calesita, the lift tells the woman to stay on her right foot (keeping her feet together) while the man moves around her. The difference between the calesita and the volcalda is in the calesita, the woman's feet are together and in the volcalda the man is leading the woman to separate the feet so that one of them does the sweep. Michael Ditkoff Next Saturday I'm going to New York to dance tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Dylan" To: Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Igor, I'm prepared to believe that it's possible to lead the lady into a Carpa or to Apilado without using suspension and that's one reason why I posted. But, as I need to make a backward step to initiate the lean, you haven't explained why the lady won't make a corresponding forward step. I know that suspension works [but not always] and I'd like to know what else would work. Jack From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sat Sep 13 13:49:35 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:49:35 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean References: <003601c915c0$b5c91c50$215b54f0$@com> Message-ID: <5B4AEAC879264E289191E3C9FBBFCB14@michaelditkoff> Igor: You wrote "when she can not make a forward step." But you didn't write how to stop her from making a forward step. My body is moving but I don't want her to step. The only way I can move without the woman moving is to tell her "don't step." That's why I have to give her a slight lift. I don't see how your method tells the woman "don't step." Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Polk" Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Jack, Michael, No "suspension", or "lift" is needed. You go into lean when she can not make a forward step. Like when she made a step, and the back leg is still behind, you initiate the lean. Igor Polk www.jcctango.org PS, please, include in the reply Tango-L address. They still block my messages. From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 18:36:15 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean In-Reply-To: <5B4AEAC879264E289191E3C9FBBFCB14@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <651754.60237.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> While suspension is one way to signal the woman not to step forward, I prefer a technique in which the man steps back but leaves the his chest more-or-less where it was so that the woman feels his support. Essentially, he gives her his weight so that they have a shared axis. If the woman feels the man's chest going away from her, she will naturally want to follow and she'll step. However, with learning volcadas, it's common for the woman to lean instead of stepping forward when the man wants her to step forward. This is where I think a lot of videos that teach more advanced steps fail - they don't distinguish the different possibilities so that the women are shortchanged in learning what they should be feeling as a lead. So what happens? The man ends up blaming the woman when she can't execute what he wants to lead. Trini de Pittsburgh From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sun Sep 14 03:32:03 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:32:03 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean References: <003601c915c0$b5c91c50$215b54f0$@com> <5B4AEAC879264E289191E3C9FBBFCB14@michaelditkoff> <003c01c915db$f32a5a30$d97f0e90$@com> Message-ID: <32D9DEA355B5465FB98B758CDF97D937@michaelditkoff> Igor: I lead my volcaldas from front boleo after a back boleo where she doesn't step forward. As she pivots on her support foot and the free foot comes around, I step back. She doesn't step forward nor backwards. Michael Washington, DC Next Saturday in NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Polk" To: "'Michael'" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 4:04 PM Subject: RE: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Michael, After she steps forward, then there is time when she brings the back leg to the "collect" position. At this time you move faster and initiate the lean. Once she feels the lean, she will not be able to move to the next step. Besides, your foot is already in appropriate position. You play with the difference in timing. That is the key. This is one of the ways. Igor Polk Igor, You wrote "when she can not make a forward step." But you didn't write how to stop her from making a forward step. My body is moving but I don't want her to step. The only way I can move without the woman moving is to tell her "don't step." That's why I have to give her a slight lift. I don't see how your method tells the woman "don't step." Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 11:40:32 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] one year birthday Message-ID: <694634.90377.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This coming week will mark one year in Tango obsession for me. So, I'm going to report my thinking at this stage..just for the hell of it. I've probably averaged 5 hours of milongas and/or classes per week. I know that this isn't a lot and so I added at least 5 hours of YouTube per week on average. I think that I will be getting a LOT more out of watching YouTube in the future than I did in the past. At this stage, I am trying to just add one or two little variations/moves to my walk. I am taking Nuevo classes, at present, to see how they deconstruct the dance - very interesting! I've taken three close embrace class series for form, etc. I will probably never use the Nuevo sequences but they are enlightening in many ways. I prefer only connection and walking. I can now walk well enough in parallel and outside in parallel, too. I'm now learning more the crossed footed walk and the back ochos + crosses. In my bag of moves, I have the ocho cortado, single axis turn, am woking on boleo.. I like to vary the walking beat of my steps and do mostly just walking and turns. I especially like the Milonga song but have to wait thru a dozen Tango Tangas to get one. I like the Vals a lot, too....both, more so than the slow Tango. I've felt like quitting a couple of times but then I remind myself that it took me two years of daily playing to get basketball down...so, why not two years for this complicated dance? ..any comments or advice will be welcomed..expecially if you could suggest something that' would enlarge my variety on the dance floor..I fear boring the woman....the more things change...the more they remain the same. From flame at 2xtreme.net Mon Sep 15 17:13:26 2008 From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:13:26 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with Oscar Mandagaron Message-ID: <48CE6D86.9285.4C7B1A@flame.2xtreme.net> Oscar Mandagaran & Georgina Vargas have been giving workshops here in the Bay Area for the last few months. Last saturday night they performed and hosted a milonga. Georgina also sang and her voice is amazing. Toward the end of the milonga, Oscar asked me (among other mere mortals) to dance. It was a dance I'll always remember mainly for the quality of the embrace, which was consistant throughout the dance. He was very easy to follow bacause of that embrace. There was no pushing or pulling but it felt like we were one person. I've never experienced anything like that dance before. I've heard it before, but now after experiencing it, I see that the embrace is the most important & fundamental element of salon style tango. So, leaders, instead of learning fancy sequences put your attention first on the embrace. Your partners will adore you for it. Diane From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Sep 16 01:39:37 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:39:37 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with Oscar Mandagaron In-Reply-To: <48CE6D86.9285.4C7B1A@flame.2xtreme.net> References: <48CE6D86.9285.4C7B1A@flame.2xtreme.net> Message-ID: <48CF4699.6010307@ruby.plala.or.jp> What I always loved about Oscar was his cuddliness. He had some of the innocence of a child the way he would look at me with his big sparkling brown eyes like a mischievious kitten or a child in love. All the little adornos he taught us were sort of in that spirit. Now that he's gotten married, all this goes to Georgina. flame at 2xtreme.net wrote: > Oscar Mandagaran & Georgina Vargas have been giving workshops here in > the Bay Area for the last few months. > Toward the end of the milonga, Oscar asked me (among other mere > mortals) to dance. It was a dance I'll always remember... From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 00:19:09 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Message-ID: <306470.84679.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > From: Igor Polk > After she steps forward, then there is time when she brings the back leg to > the "collect" position. At this time you move faster and initiate the lean. > Once she feels the lean, she will not be able to move to the next step. > Besides, your foot is already in appropriate position. > Sorry Igor but?I just don't get it. I'm probably misunderstanding but the whole idea of 'moving more quickly to initiate the lean',?seemingly?before she has time to react and step forward just doesn't make sense to me. I like to use Carpa a lot but it's always done in a slow and?controlled manner. IMHO if you step back, you have to do something positive to stop your partner from making a forward step. As Michael and I have commented and as agreed by Trini, suspension works fine but I'm sure there are other ways. ----- Original Message ---- > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > > While suspension is one way to signal the woman not to step forward, I prefer a > technique in which the man steps back but leaves the his chest more-or-less > where it was so that the woman feels his support.? Essentially, he gives her his > weight so that they have a shared axis.? If the woman feels the man's chest > going away from her, she will naturally want to follow and she'll step. > Hmm, sorry Trini, I think I understand what your?saying?but your decription seems to defy the laws of physics. If you step back and leave your chest in place, all your weight will be transferred to your partner but without giving her the chance to?lean in order to provide the counterbalance that is essential in Carpa. IMO, both partners must lean at exactly the same time. When I step back into Carpa, I keep my chest up and my knees straight. Any flexing of the knee or lowering of the chest will cause the girl to step forward. ? But something I like to add is a slightl rotation my torso left while stepping back. This has the effect of causing the girls left?foot to move behind her right foot and reinforces the message that I don't want her to step forward. ? Sorry to be so long-winded but, btw, if I'm going directly into a Valcada with lady's Front Boleo, the mechanism will be very different to that described above. ? Jack From tangocommute at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 23:12:40 2008 From: tangocommute at yahoo.com (Tango Commute) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tangocommute NYC - your views requested! Message-ID: <62203.88128.qm@web46107.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All Following TangoCommute London, TangoCommute NYC took place on 911 in [not quite] 20 locations across the Big Apple http://nycmidtownwest.ourtown.com/3786 , check also youtube for increasing number of vidoes... Prior to the London event on tango-uk yahoo group there was plenty of discussion, which was often marvelous and only occassionaly moronic. I understand that there is an equally sophisticated debating culture in the US and I have been missing any discussion so far. I can only hope that this post will bring forward some distinct views and opinions? Please read NYC Press Release http://www.tangocommute.com/documents/TangoCommute_PressRelease_091108.pdf Mission: http://www.tangocommute.com/mission.html Characteristics: http://www.tangocommute.com/characteristics.html and Q&A: http://www.tangocommute.com/documents/TangoCommute_Q&A.pdf There is a flickr media archive of more then 500 pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangocommute/show/ TangoCommute Podcast by TangoTales: http://www.tangotales.com/tangocommute/TangoCommute091108.mp3 For facebook users we have a discussion board on the group and event page for TangoCommute NewYork Group: http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=16959687449 NYC event: http://www.new.facebook.com/event.php?eid=32194107891 Regards, Tom and TC team http://www.tangocommute.com/people.html If you wish to get involved or require further information, please contact info at tangocommute.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 07:56:18 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with Oscar Mandagaron Message-ID: <816940.32580.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sometimes, a video is worth a thousand words...that child-in-love embrace... ..I especially like the mischieveous kitten like kung fu at 2:14 into this one. http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=xIXiHxz4fkA ...please, remind me to discount what some people say. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Sep 16 08:14:37 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:14:37 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with Oscar Mandagaron In-Reply-To: <816940.32580.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <816940.32580.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48CFA32D.3080207@ruby.plala.or.jp> Your reply reminds us all that watching a 3 minute youtube video tells you more about a dancer than meeting him in person for years. I have known Oscar from the time when he was still dancing in Forever Tango and proudly showing off pictures of teaching tango movements to his babies from his first wife. And met Georgina when she was still looking like a plump teenager and was just learning to dance with Gustavo Saenz. All this proves of course that youtube is the way to go and that there is no difference between the way when someone is dancing in a show and doing tango in a little bar in Tokyo. ; ) Mario wrote: > Sometimes, a video is worth a thousand words...that child-in-love embrace... > > ...please, remind me to discount what some people say. > > From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 09:29:36 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tangocommute NYC - your views requested! Message-ID: <94011.13948.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I enjoyed the photos very much. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangocommute/show/ Dancing outdoors to Tango music is enchanting (especially at night) and here it weaves the magic into the everyday life of the Big Apple. What can be more edifying for the city and her people. Hey look, anything that brings magic and FUN into this dance ..has my immediate and whole-hearted gratitude! It is a lot more sensual than a thread on construction or engineering viz: "How to initiate lean" From lgmoseley at aol.com Tue Sep 16 11:00:00 2008 From: lgmoseley at aol.com (Laurence Moseley) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:00:00 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate the lean Message-ID: <8CAE62406EC81F8-C24-4E0@WEBMAIL-MB12.sysops.aol.com> I have always found that the way to initiate the lean is similar to the way in which the man can stop a lady who has turned into an automatic ocho machine - by lifting her ever so slightly. That does not mean that you lift her with your hands or arms. Rather you raise you solar plexus and let the connection do the work. The effect appears to be that she is standing on the ball of her foot (often the left) with her calf muscles temporarily slightly extended. She is then unable to walk until you once again return her to ground level. From there you can lead a lean and add all sorts of possibilities. Step back right and bend left knee slightly invites a catch round the outside of the left knee. Step back left invites a catch round the inside of the right knee. Walk round at a constant distance produces a callesita, often with beautiful decorations from the lady. If the lady chooses to let her free leg circle low to the floor, the man can offer her free foot (obviously without weight) and she can choose to do a drag of her own. Turning the shoulders can often produce a volcada ... and so on. I like holding the lean and rocking a tiny amount backwards and forward to the tipping point, in time with the music. It's a lovely moment especially in the Vals. The softer your knees are, the easier will it be to execute such a move. The easier her knees are, the more choice she will have in how to react to your lead. Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare. Brazos Laurie (Laurence) ----- Original Message ---- > From: Igor Polk > After she steps forward, then there is time when she brings the back leg to > the "collect" position. At this time you move faster and initiate the lean. > Once she feels the lean, she will not be able to move to the next step. > Besides, your foot is already in appropriate position. > Sorry Igor but I just don't get it. I'm probably misunderstanding but the whole idea of 'moving more quickly to initiate the lean', seemingly before she has time to react and step forward just doesn't make sense to me. I like to use Carpa a lot but it's always done in a slow and controlled manner. IMHO if you step back, you have to do something positive to stop your partner from making a forward step. As Michael and I have commented and as agreed by Trini, suspension works fine but I'm sure there are other ways. ----- Original Message ---- > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) > > While suspension is one way to signal the woman not to step forward, I prefer a > technique in which the man steps back but leaves the his chest more-or-less > where it was so that the woman feels his support. Essentially, he gives her his > weight so that they have a shared axis. If the woman feels the man's chest > going away from her, she will naturally want to follow and she'll step. > Hmm, sorry Trini, I think I understand what your saying but your decription seems to defy the laws of physics. If you step back and leave your chest in place, all your weight will be transferred to your partner but without giving her the chance to lean in order to provide the counterbalance that is essential in Carpa. IMO, both partners must lean at exactly the same time. When I step back into Carpa, I keep my chest up and my knees straight. Any flexing of the knee or lowering of the chest will cause the girl to step forward. But something I like to add is a slightl rotation my torso left while stepping back. This has the effect of causing the girls left foot to move behind her right foot and reinforces the message that I don't want her to step forward. Sorry to be so long-winded but, btw, if I'm going directly into a Valcada with lady's Front Boleo, the mechanism will be very different to that described above. Jack _______________________________________________ ) ________________________________________________________________________ AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 16 11:53:55 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:53:55 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: "Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare." This has to be a joke. Sergio _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 16 14:10:27 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:10:27 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought Message-ID: "Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare." I do not wish to brake "the one liner rule" so... This would be the same as saying that the passengers riding in a car can fight the driver and antagonize his movements of the steering wheel. Dancing, like in many human activities, can be very easy: one leads and the other one follows. Then who in the world is going to dance with a follower that ignores the lead or even worse antagonizes or fights it. I grew up in Buenos Aires, I never saw such a thing. The replacement of the word "invitation" for "marcar" (to lead) is an euphemism, apparently needed abroad. Argentines do not have any problem with saying - el hombre marca y la mujer sigue - The man "marca" (suggests ?) and the woman follows...and she is happy to do so. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 19:30:36 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought Message-ID: <629785.70028.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "El hombre marca y la mujer sigue" Dear Sergio, I hate to have to tell you this but the good 'ol days are going fast...soon they will be gone. Didn't we have a woman post her PHD thesis here last month. In which she tells us how the old world mentality of male/female roll playing (in the dance and cabeceo) are just antique male dominance devices that are now being challenged and defeated even in BsAs. Then she thanked the Tango-L readers who sent her many 'pro-active' emails. I dare say that, in North America, who leads and who follows will soon have to be negotiated...hence, the confusion. Certainly expecting a woman to follow everything you lead, without negotiation first, would be terribly demanding and chauvinistic. Check your balls, guys. (this is my last post for the week..I got carried away with three today...so sorry) From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 03:18:54 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought In-Reply-To: <629785.70028.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <229369.5353.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Sean here. If you were to search through the archives, you would find that I once thought like Mario does. With only 4 or 5 years experience, I was barely a tango beginner... Mario, I know you are excited and enthusiastic about your new hobby, but please, aquire a decade or 2 of experience before pronouncing the inevitable PC future of this dance. You may not believe it, but I suspect that North Americans are not the sole repository of wisdom in gender relations. 10 years from now you may be quite embarrassed if someone dredges up your latest gem from the archives. I have no interest in dancing with passive women. There is no greater thrill than dancing with an active partner. But if a woman wants to take my role, well, I will never fight with her over that. If she chooses to ignor or "negotiate", then I choose to just walk away. And should the bleak future Mario predicts come to pass, I will prefer to dance with Ramiro, and leave the women to sit. Sean P.S. A PHD implies some intelligence, but no wisdom is necessary. --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Mario wrote: I dare say that, in North America, who leads and who follows will soon have to be negotiated...hence, the confusion. Certainly expecting a woman to follow everything you lead, without negotiation first, would be terribly demanding and chauvinistic. --- On Mon, 9/15/08, ramiro garcia wrote: One lady was pretty adamant about the whole thing, and dancing it Her way. I simply stopped dancing milonga with her. PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 09:53:15 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought In-Reply-To: <629785.70028.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <734742.68015.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Mario wrote: > I dare say that, in North America, who leads and who > follows will soon have to be negotiated...hence, the > confusion. Certainly expecting a woman to follow everything > you lead, without negotiation first, would be terribly > demanding and chauvinistic. Trini, here. This issue came up a couple of weeks ago in a milonga workshop with Susana Miller. Her initial response to a question was pretty much along Sergio's remarks, but she offered a further explanation. A man proposes a movement and she "answers" but she knows that her answer affects the man's next proposal. So there is a dialogue going. And she always has the option of not dancing with them the next time he asks. And I'm afraid as long as tango communities have limited competition and people feel social pressure to dance with everyone or folks feel entitled to a dance by anyone who "should" be dancing with them, this issue will always rear it's head. Trini de Pittsburgh From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 17 10:48:50 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:48:50 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1256?q?_Lead_an_invitation_that_can_be_ignore?= =?windows-1256?q?d_or_fought=FE?= Message-ID: Dear Mario, I want to congratulate you on your accomplishments, it was only yesterday that you were asking guidance on how to lead and now, look at you !, you can predict the future of tango lead and follow in North America. I guess we can agree about certain elements: 1- Couple Dance technique requires the existence of a leader and a follower. 2- Historically the leader has been the man and the follower has been the woman. 3- One of the characteristics of dance is to move in a harmonious way throughout the floor. Lots of technique and practice are needed in order to acquire the necessary skills to achieve this goal. 4- To have a follower that ignores or fights the leader sounds somewhat absurd. 5- A good tango has to be wished by both the leader and the follower. When a leader does not like to dance with a particular follower he does not ask her to dance 6- If a lady does not wish to follow a particular leader all that she has to do is refuse to dance with him. 7- There is a masculine and a feminine role in tango dancing. 8- These roles may be exchanged: Women leading women, women leading men, men leading other men. In these instances the respective roles may be assumed or not, resulting in this last instance in a "feminine" woman leading or a "masculine" man following, for instance. A few years ago I was with Nito and Elba at CITA (Cosmotango). We had to give a lesson in the morning and another one in the evening; there was plenty of time in between which I decided to use to take all sort of "unusual" Tango lessons. So I took " Milonga Candombera" from Facundo and Kelly, "Milonga Murguera" and "Teatrical Tango" from Eduardo Capussi and Mariana Flores, a lesson where the woman could ask for extra time to perform her embellishments (by pressing slightly the man's arm) and one given by Chicho Frumboli where the man lead the woman to do the man's foot work while he was doing the woman's. A great exercise for your mind. Summary: Many changes and experimentations are possible, you may choose the way you wish to dance. There are certain things that sound absurd and will not travel too far. Best wishes, Sergio . _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From dchester at charter.net Wed Sep 17 12:45:24 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:45:24 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080917124524.U0OQ2.9251.root@mp20> Sergio, I really think that Mario was trying to mix in a bit of hyperbole and humor into his post (at least I hope so). In any case, I would go a step further on one of your points (although they all were pretty good), that to have a follower that fights or ignores the leader IS absurd. FWIW, my current philosophy is that I lead steps, and invite embellishments. Regards, David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sergio Vandekier I guess we can agree about certain elements: 1- Couple Dance technique requires the existence of a leader and a follower. 2- Historically the leader has been the man and the follower has been the woman. 3- One of the characteristics of dance is to move in a harmonious way throughout the floor. Lots of technique and practice are needed in order to acquire the necessary skills to achieve this goal. 4- To have a follower that ignores or fights the leader sounds somewhat absurd. 5- A good tango has to be wished by both the leader and the follower. When a leader does not like to dance with a particular follower he does not ask her to dance 6- If a lady does not wish to follow a particular leader all that she has to do is refuse to dance with him. 7- There is a masculine and a feminine role in tango dancing. From tempehuck at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 13:53:39 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:53:39 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 30, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <20080917124524.U0OQ2.9251.root@mp20> References: <20080917124524.U0OQ2.9251.root@mp20> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:45 AM, David wrote: > Sergio, > > I really think that Mario was trying to mix in a bit of hyperbole and humor into his post (at least I hope so). That was my impression as well, that Mario was being humorously sarcastic. > In any case, I would go a step further on one of your points (although they all were pretty good), that to have a follower that fights or ignores the leader IS absurd. Indeed. > FWIW, my current philosophy is that I lead steps, and invite embellishments. I might modify the lead part to "do my best to lead steps and cheerfully, silently, and transparently react in stride to whatever she actually does as a result of the lead." Huck From info at adagioconbrio.co.uk Wed Sep 17 16:46:57 2008 From: info at adagioconbrio.co.uk (info@adagioconbrio.co.uk) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:46:57 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] "El hombre marca y la mujer sigue" Message-ID: <10413894.193251221684417068.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Dear tango-L list readers/writers: responding to: "Didn't we have a woman post her PHD thesis here last month. In which she tells us how the old world mentality of male/female role playing (in the dance and cabeceo) are just antiquemale dominance devices that are now being challenged and defeated even in BsAs. Then she thanked the Tango-L readers who sent her many 'pro-active' emails." Mario "A PHD implies some intelligence, but no wisdom is necessary." Sean i would like to clarify that i am not on a PHD course (Sean: does it grant me wisdom and remove intelligence? ; ) i thank Mario to refer to my research, however, i am pretty sure i stopped at the 'challenged'/s: no winners and no defeated for the moment! the research paper i shared with all of you was the outcome of the 5 weeks course 'National identity and cultural translations' with Prof. Marta Savigliano (author of 'Tango and the political economy of passion' and 'Angora Matta') and Prof Jeff Tobin, held last summer in Buenos Aires @ Glosas(http://www.glosas.org). I -academically- only hold a BA in Dance and Related Arts from Chichester University (1998-2001, UK) and although i was suggested to pursue a PHD I for now enjoy writing independently. Since i received an award/grant from the Arts Council of England to attend the course in Bs As i was keen to share my observations and research in the UK, both in writing (participating at Forums, Symposiums and Conferences) and in my live dance works (Resolution Festival, SouthLondonTango, Rassegna di Danza). It took me a long time to get a grasp here, and the paper i shared with you took over one year to write (difficult to fit all in 20 minutes!). so as my friends would go to milongas, i would stay in and read Derrida, Lacan, Butler, Irigaray, Savigliano, Levy-Strauss, etc trying to understand... I know... I should dance instead! - but with whom???!!! Regarding the "El hombre marca y la mujer sigue" or "Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought" many Tango dancers and teachers refers to Tango as a dialogue. yet when i see them dancing, i don't see/feel/recognize a dialogue.... who talks and who listens? who intiate and who responds? who approaches and who rejects? who smiles and who frowns? who shouts and who whispers? who/what determine the subject of the dialogue? who/what shifts the flow of conversation? I personally like to think of it as a conversational interplay, as it often happens in contact improvisation. both parties have the chance to initiate and respond, and sometimes both parties are surprised.....briefly... then the conversation goes on. from vikipedia (different interpretation: any greeks on the list can verify?) <<>> so what do we 'mean' when we dance Tango? and is our meaning 'flowing'? and if it is, 'thorough' what? if interested, check the 7th International Festival of same-gender Tango in Hamburg: http://www.queer-tango.de/html/seite.php?m=0&p=3&mk=1 my best 'conversationally' dancing wishes... Adriana www.adagioconbrio.co.uk ps: i would not really define myself as a lesbian or as a feminist....! (some people ask/wonder...) From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 20:35:25 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "El hombre marca y la mujer sigue" In-Reply-To: <10413894.193251221684417068.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Message-ID: <364664.72087.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, info at adagioconbrio.co.uk wrote: (Sean: does it grant me wisdom and remove intelligence? ; ) Hi Adriana, I don't think the 2 are related. So it should be possible to gain wisdom over the course of ones life, without losing any intelligence. ; ) Perhaps I am using the terms too simplistically. By intelligence, I mean that which enables one to understand that smoking is addictive and bad for your health. Wisdom is that which enables one (who is not already addicted) to choose not to smoke. Most people probably develop enough wisdom to make that choice in their teens, which is why cigarette ads are targeted towards less wise preteens. The PhD candidates I know are under 30 years old, and sheltered in academia. They are unlikely to have developed as much wisdom as a 45 year old surviving in a less sheltered environment. I perhaps can make some more insightful comments on your other questions, but it will have to wait until I have more time. For now, consider that if I choose to walk across a room, I will do it on 2 legs. But they will nonetheless act as a single organism. For me, tango is the same. It is not like other partner dancing that I have experienced, where 2 individuals dance separate synchronized dances. When it works, my partner and I are a single organism. For the woman to ignore or fight me is as absurd as it would be for my right leg to ignore or fight my left leg when I walk across the room. The tango organism is built from the personalities of both partners. But should either partner need to assert their identity, then (for me at least) all is lost. Sean From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 14:11:32 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Milonguero - Eduardo El Nene Masci Message-ID: <123159.84786.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Is this Tango Liso? I always thought tango liso was?a very smooth, simple dance? with few steps and figures.?But this video includes some fancy footwork,?sacadas, high front and back boleos and a even a?planeo. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mario > > Eduardo Masci is, to my taste, the best living Tango liso dancer in the world. >?? > ? http://youtube.com/watch?v=ktw5UVHSMv4 >? From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 22:46:04 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <918560.15866.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I agree with Sergio that it sounds like a joke. I've always understood and been taught that tango is all about 'lead and follow', as is every other partner dance. Surely, leading is the man's major responsibility in tango. How can the lady ignore or fight his lead unless, of course, she doesn't understand it? If it's not a joke, I'd like Laurie to explain a little more. And I'd love to here some comments from the ladies - especially those who live in Buenos Aires, or at least visit a lot. Does this happen there? ? Man, this could turn my world upside down. ? Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Sergio Vandekier > > > "Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is > an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even > fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare." > > > This has to be a joke.? > > Sergio From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 18 13:39:25 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:39:25 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1256?q?_Lead_an_invitation_that_can_be_ignore?= =?windows-1256?q?d_or_fought=FE=FE?= Message-ID: "And I'd love to here some comments from the ladies - especially those who live in Buenos Aires, or at least visit a lot. Does this happen there?" When you dance Argentine Tango in Buenos Aires, you go a milonga, you choose a particular lady you feel a desire to dance with, and stare in the proper way, to see if she has a desire to dance with you. If she shows interest, she stares back, and nodes. You meet en la pista de baile, (the dancing floor) and start dancing. Tango is a manifestation of Argentine popular culture, a society where traditionally men and women do their best to cooperate with each other rather than to compete or antagonize. So when you enter a relationship or start a tango in Buenos Aires you can expect cooperation, not indifference, resistance or quarreling. You are certain that she accepted to dance with you, because she likes to dance with you and therefore she will do her best to be attentive and follow every lead with every little nuance. If something does not work perfectly well, while dancing tango, one has to look for the reason. Assuming that you are a good dancer who leads with clarity, perhaps she is not as good as you thought she was, then you attempt to hide this fact by making sure you lead moves, you are certain she can follow. It does not even cross your mind that she could be undermining "that tango" on purpose. The base of our culture is cooperation and respect between the sexes, each one in his own world, different but equal. ( I do not care if some foreign woman, have a different perspective, she has the right to her own opinion). I in my masculine role, offer protection, feel the music, lead with clarity, (when I say lead, I mean everything including the embellishments she executes and the type of ornaments she does), allow enough time for her artistic expression, weight the type of response I receive, and adjust my future leads in relation to that response, trying to make sure she dances with ease and pleasure. So we say that tango is a conversation because whatever she does, affects what I will do next. I am conscious that this is "our" tango not "my" or "her" tango. In her feminine role, she comes to my arms like a bird that has entered the nest, she is hyper-attentive to make an accurate interpretation of my lead, she adds her feminine touch to every move she executes, I realize how much easily she does everything with beautiful simplicity, elasticity and harmony, than I do. At certain moment there is a surrendering of both to the embrace, a real fusion of the spirit and the body. It is like a dream that ends when the music stops. Best wishes, Sergio PS. If you dance with a woman that ignores your lead, antagonizes you and fights the lead, you are not dancing Argentine Tango. If you want to dance tango, stop right now, take her back to her seat and never ask her to dance again. Hopefully you can introduce her to some guy you strongly dislike. _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From larrynla at juno.com Fri Sep 19 16:10:16 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:10:16 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <20080919.131016.15363.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com> My reaction to Laurie's statement was different than that of some on this list. I simply took it as a statement of fact, acknowledging that women are active participants in a dance, not puppets. Most of the time they seek to relax into the direction the leader supplies, but IN AN EMERGENCY it is not only their right but their duty to ignore or resist a lead. For instance, if to follow it would cause me to crash into someone. Or to hurt her. (Some time back a favorite partner resisted doing boleos and ochos, explaining that she had hurt her back recently.) Most often a woman ignores a lead because she does not understand it. Possibly she's never learned the proper response. But it could also be because I was not clear in my lead. Before guys get all huffy and swear never to dance with someone again they should ask themselves if her lack of response or resistance is THEIR fault. Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Free information on Trade Schools. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigk8ruSDlwiEQxeDYgcQk9JBmxXFZHPrVLpjSdHPSqj02gp0/ From larrynla at juno.com Fri Sep 19 16:37:26 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:37:26 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] How to initiate lean Message-ID: <20080919.133726.25308.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> The answer to this question is: all of the above! Both methods mentioned so far work: "suspension" and placing a woman's free foot behind her supporting foot with a slight twist of the leader's upper body as if about to lead a backward ocho or a back boleo. A third tactic (which no one has yet mentioned) is to lead the volcada (or any other action) slowly. Or at least not to hurry it. It takes humans at least 1/4 second to react to anything, and usually much closer to 1/2 second. A leader can't act as if his partner is a robot with millisecond response times. A fourth tactic is to judge your partner's response. Does it seem as if she knows what you are requesting? Or is she totally bewildered and maybe panicked by what you are asking? Partner dancing is like any form of communication. One should use such methods as good grammar and emphasis and re-phrasing a request so one "speaks" clearly. And one should "listen" to one's listeners to be sure they understood you. Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Click for free quote on refinancing your mortgage. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifTCL4Cb94Azh0SNOBA6pR7FCeSOVGlmc6r5WJ0uC2A33OUK/ From robinctara at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 17:46:52 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:46:52 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809191446v6174e4aas487998f5b923cf1d@mail.gmail.com> I just got horrible news about Omar Vega. He had a massive allergy attack and died. I thought that everyone who knew him would want to know. He was a great talent and one of the most creative and musical dancers I ever knew. I have not yet heard when the funeral will be but will forward any more information I recieve. How sad. Robin Tara From robinctara at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 20:04:38 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:04:38 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809191704p7a3f70d2id2f1a6f2760cc767@mail.gmail.com> People have been asking about Omar. They are asking if it was really a drug overdose - I don't know, but I never knew Omar to be involved with drugs. He may have hung out with folks who were, but I never knew him to be a druggie. I have been told that he was an orphan who grew up on the streets on Buenos Aires, clowning, juggling and boxing to make a living. They say he couldn't read, and although this is probably true, he was a VERY quick study and could learn anything he set his mind to. He was an amazing mimic. I remember walking down the streets of Manhattan with him and moment by moment he would become the person who had just passed us. He could immediately take on the aspect of anyone who caught his attention. I believe he was not appreciated enough for his amazing ability as a dancer. The first tim eI met him was back in Buenos Aires at La Confiteria Ideal in 1994. He was dancing with Rebecca Schulman, late, late at night when the place was almost empty. It was an eye opening experience. And I will never forget the night in New York at one of Daniel and Marias milongas when he and Rebecca danced to "Huracan". It was mesmerizing. I also remember one night at "El Beso" when I complained to Omar that the music was boring to me. He said "I'll show you this music". All of a sudden, dancing with him, the music came alive. I heard things I had never heard before and will probably never hear again. This is what a real dancer can give to a partner. He was a dancer. Robin From tango_partner_ba at yahoo.com.ar Fri Sep 19 20:27:29 2008 From: tango_partner_ba at yahoo.com.ar (Tango Partners in Buenos Aires) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Sad News: Omar Vega passed away in BA Message-ID: <450548.84257.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lamentamos informar que en el d?a de la fecha ha dejado de existir en esta ciudad de Buenos Aires el gran bailar?n, ?core?grafo y amigo Omar Vega passed awaySus restos ser?n velados en Thames 1161 a partir de esta noche (19 de septiembre) a las 22 horas, y hasta las 11. Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From MJWRITER at aol.com Fri Sep 19 20:27:42 2008 From: MJWRITER at aol.com (MJWRITER@aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:27:42 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega Message-ID: I have not contributed to this list for years, but with the death of Omar Vega I will take the risk. Omar was teaching in Seattle several years ago and I was hosting a weekly milonga at my home with many local dancers. Omar and Bill Peterson joined us one night for a lovely evening of dance. Honoring the hostess -- me -- Omar danced several dances with me and I was thrilled with his genius and skill. Later we talked of his life history. In addition to what Robin wrote, he had served in the military for Argentina in the Malvinas/Falklands war which actually wounded him deeply, although not literally. What a loss for the Tango community. As Robin says, he was a dancer. Mary Jane Seattle and Phoenix **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Fri Sep 19 21:38:50 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:38:50 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501c91ac1$a74de4c0$4100a8c0@labyrinth> I have heard a little about his history and what has been written matches up. One story I heard is that when he started dancing tango he was doing all sorts of crazy stuff on the dance floor. The men made him stop and he sat for two years before they let him dance. Then he started developing the amazing style that was truly his own. This is unconfirmed. I am not going to mention about his personal life. But two things are for sure. One: He was an amazing dancer, and helped a lot of people understand A. Tango a lot better. Two: Anyone I know, that has met or known Omar. Has at least one Omar Vega story. He will be missed greatly not only as a fantastic dancer, but also as a life character. David -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of MJWRITER at aol.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 6:28 PM To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega I have not contributed to this list for years, but with the death of Omar Vega I will take the risk. Omar was teaching in Seattle several years ago and I was hosting a weekly milonga at my home with many local dancers. Omar and Bill Peterson joined us one night for a lovely evening of dance. Honoring the hostess -- me -- Omar danced several dances with me and I was thrilled with his genius and skill. Later we talked of his life history. In addition to what Robin wrote, he had served in the military for Argentina in the Malvinas/Falklands war which actually wounded him deeply, although not literally. What a loss for the Tango community. As Robin says, he was a dancer. Mary Jane Seattle and Phoenix **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.0/1680 - Release Date: 9/19/2008 8:25 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.0/1680 - Release Date: 9/19/2008 8:25 AM From imhmedia at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 22:20:39 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:20:39 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860809191704p7a3f70d2id2f1a6f2760cc767@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e1cc4860809191704p7a3f70d2id2f1a6f2760cc767@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D45DF7.4060406@yahoo.com> Hi Robin... there were no drugs or alcohol involved. Omar has been sufering from very bad asthma for some time and was on a lot of medication every since he stopped drinking last year. ...so please try to quell the nasty rumors... Omar was clean the last year of his life. (And he never did like drugs...) take care... Ilene robin tara wrote: >People have been asking about Omar. They are asking if it was really a >drug overdose - I don't know, but I never knew Omar to be involved >with drugs. He may have hung out with folks who were, but I never >knew him to be a druggie. I have been told that he was an orphan who >grew up on the streets on Buenos Aires, clowning, juggling and boxing >to make a living. They say he couldn't read, and although this is >probably true, he was a VERY quick study and could learn anything he >set his mind to. > >He was an amazing mimic. I remember walking down the streets of >Manhattan with him and moment by moment he would become the person who >had just passed us. He could immediately take on the aspect of anyone >who caught his attention. > >I believe he was not appreciated enough for his amazing ability as a >dancer. The first tim eI met him was back in Buenos Aires at La >Confiteria Ideal in 1994. He was dancing with Rebecca Schulman, late, >late at night when the place was almost empty. It was an eye opening >experience. And I will never forget the night in New York at one of >Daniel and Marias milongas when he and Rebecca danced to "Huracan". It >was mesmerizing. > >I also remember one night at "El Beso" when I complained to Omar that >the music was boring to me. He said "I'll show you this music". All of >a sudden, dancing with him, the music came alive. I heard things I had >never heard before and will probably never hear again. This is what a >real dancer can give to a partner. He was a dancer. > >Robin >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From buffmilonguera at aol.com Sat Sep 20 20:48:59 2008 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 20:48:59 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Visiting Washington DC In-Reply-To: <48D45DF7.4060406@yahoo.com> References: <9e1cc4860809191704p7a3f70d2id2f1a6f2760cc767@mail.gmail.com> <48D45DF7.4060406@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAE99AF75035BA-10F8-707@webmail-md12.sysops.aol.com> I will be visiting Washington DC from September 29 to October 4 - and I am looking for someplace to dance, and maybe a private class or two...... I have been looking at the calendar, but I know that it is sometimes easier for strangers in some places more than others - which is why I like to go someplace with a lesson before the milonga so I can meet some other dancers. If anyone can suggest particular teachers, milongas, practicas, etc. that would be great. If anyone knows that they'll be going to tango and is willing to include me as a guest - I will promise to do the same if you ever visit Western New York. :) I am particularly interested in going to the outdoor milonga has any suggestions - thanks barbra From angelaml38 at aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:24:11 2008 From: angelaml38 at aol.com (Angela Maria) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:24:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Recordamos a Omar Vega In-Reply-To: <8CAE95217A6BE96-1114-22BD@Webmail-mg11.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAE95217A6BE96-1114-22BD@Webmail-mg11.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAEA0CD9DC05BD-C48-4C3@webmail-nc06.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Angela Maria To: Tango-A at MIT.EDU Sent: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Pensamos en Omar Vega Dear tango friends, Last night I heard at a milonga that Omar Vega had passed away on September 19 in Buenos Aires. This news provoked in me a great sadness for I had the privilege of conversing with him, a very sensitive person,?over the years during his visits to NYC.?Listening to him taught me a lot about the tango world subculture. ? Omar Vega was a great contributor to the world of tango. He was an eloquent dancer and a great teacher. Watching him dance was as if you were taking a?tango lesson.?I observed him dance at the milongas and couldn't help admiring his genuine elegance; wonderful musicality and unique?connection with his partner. Dear Omar, sorry you left us but your milonga CD will always occupy a space in my heart. Thank you. Un abrazo, Angela Maria NYC Estimados amigos/as, En una milonga me entere?que Omar Vega?fallecio el 19 de septiembre en Buenos Aires.?Esta noticia provoco en mi mucha tristeza porque atravez de los anos durante sus visitas a Nueva York, tuve la oportunidad de conversar frecuentemente con una persona muy sensitiva. Escuchandole, aprendi mucho acerca de la comunidad del tango. Omar Vega aporto una gran contribucion al mundo del tango. El fue un?maravilloso bailarin y un gran maestro. Observandole en la pista bailar en las milonga era un aprendizaje por si solo, ya que demostraba una innata elegancia; gran musicalidad y naturalidad en?su conexion con?la?pareja.? Querido Omar, siento que nos has dejado, pero tu CD de milonga siempre estara en mi corazon.Gracias a ti. Angela Maria NYC Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages! From angelaml38 at aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:32:09 2008 From: angelaml38 at aol.com (Angela Maria) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:32:09 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Pensamos en Omar Vega In-Reply-To: <8CAE95217A6BE96-1114-22BD@Webmail-mg11.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAE95217A6BE96-1114-22BD@Webmail-mg11.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAEA0DF683AD11-C48-4F3@webmail-nc06.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Angela Maria To: Tango-A at MIT.EDU Sent: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Pensamos en Omar Vega Dear tango friends, Last night I heard at a milonga that Omar Vega had passed away on September 19 in Buenos Aires. This news provoked in me a great sadness for I had the privilege of conversing with him, a very sensitive person,?over the years during his visits to NYC.?Listening to him taught me a lot about the tango world subculture. ? Omar Vega was a great contributor to the world of tango. He was an eloquent dancer and a great teacher. Watching him dance was as if you were taking a?tango lesson.?I observed him dance at the milongas and couldn't help admiring his genuine elegance; wonderful musicality and unique?connection with his partner. Dear Omar, sorry you left us but your milonga CD will always occupy a space in my heart. Thank you. Un abrazo, Angela Maria NYC Estimados amigos/as, En una milonga me entere?que Omar Vega?fallecio el 19 de septiembre en Buenos Aires.?Esta noticia provoco en mi mucha tristeza porque atravez de los anos durante sus visitas a Nueva York, tuve la oportunidad de conversar frecuentemente con una persona muy sensitiva. Escuchandole, aprendi mucho acerca de la comunidad del tango. Omar Vega aporto una gran contribucion al mundo del tango. El fue un?maravilloso bailarin y un gran maestro. Observandole en la pista bailar en las milonga era un aprendizaje por si solo, ya que demostraba una innata elegancia; gran musicalidad y naturalidad en?su conexion con?la?pareja.? Querido Omar, siento que nos has dejado, pero tu CD de milonga siempre estara en mi corazon.Gracias a ti. Angela Maria NYC Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages! From angelaml38 at aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:48:31 2008 From: angelaml38 at aol.com (Angela Maria) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:48:31 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAEA103FA82D4D-C48-550@webmail-nc06.sysops.aol.com> Would you please explain, why my most recent post?on Tango-L? Re: Omar Vega was?edited by adding?unnecessary question marks? It totally distorted the message intended. Thank you, Angela Maria NYC -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu To: angelaml38 at aol.com Sent: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:32 am Subject: Tango-L post acknowledgement Your message entitled Fwd: Pensamos en Omar Vega was successfully received by the Tango-L mailing list. List info page: http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Your preferences: http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/options/tango-l/angelaml38%40aol.com From al at sgi.com Tue Sep 23 07:35:25 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:35:25 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <918560.15866.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <918560.15866.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48D8D47D.5080202@sgi.com> Jack Dylan wrote: > I agree with Sergio that it sounds like a joke. I've always understood and been > taught that tango is all about 'lead and follow', as is every other partner dance. > Surely, leading is the man's major responsibility in tango. How can the lady > ignore or fight his lead unless, of course, she doesn't understand it? > Ignore and fight are the wonrg words. But given a lead is an invitation, she can certainly *resist* a lead, i.e. change the timing. She can even take over the lead momentarily (which is no problem with me, but bruises the ego of some other leaders) . Given that the leader should be inviting and listening in order to move in unison with the follower, there's nothing absurd about all that - and good followers *will* use resistance to counter bad leads (that bring the couple out of balance in a wrong way), to force room for adornos when the door for them is slightly ajar, and to move in perfect harmony with the music. Anyone who can't deal with this is perfectly free to dance with a broomstick. They offer no resistance and never take over the lead. From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 09:09:42 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <48D8D47D.5080202@sgi.com> Message-ID: <72375.8613.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Alexis Cousein wrote: > But given a lead is an invitation, she can certainly > *resist* a lead, i.e. change the timing. She can even take over the lead momentarily (which is no problem with me, but bruises the ego of some other leaders) . Given that the leader should be inviting and listening in order to move in unison with the follower, there's nothing absurd about all that - and good followers *will* use resistance to counter bad leads (that bring the couple out of balance in a wrong way), to force room for adornos when the door for them is slightly ajar, and to move in perfect > harmony with the music. No, no, no. These aren't the right words either. A follower can suggest things but she shouldn't resist or force room or take over. For really good leaders, this can be annoying. The better the leader is, the more willing the follower is to listen and follow his invitation. If she "forces room" it is actually that she suggested room and the leader allowed the room to open. In a way, it comes down to who understands the music better and can interpret the blueprint the music offers. If she doesn't understand the music, then her attempts to ignore/resist/change the invitations of a man who really knows the music can be really annoying. Few women I encounter are good about being able to interpret the music. As someone who knows the music well, when I lead, I prefer a woman who also knows the music (and I'll be happy to listen to her suggestions) or a woman who simply accepts my invitation. Trini de Pittsburgh From al at sgi.com Tue Sep 23 09:29:35 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:29:35 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <72375.8613.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <72375.8613.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48D8EF3F.50806@sgi.com> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > No, no, no. These aren't the right words either. A follower can suggest things > but she shouldn't resist or force room or take over. Whether "resist" is an appropriate word is a matter of semantics. And I disagree that it's totally unkosher for her to "force room" or "take over", at least if you understand the context (i.e. don't take the words as if they came from a military dictionary). *Of course*, it's all done in the same way as the regular lead: she suggests changes and listens to the response, in the same way that the leader *also* has to suggest the original lead and listen to the response. I'm not advocating a War of the Roses on the dance floor, but a conversation is more than one partner incessantly talking and the other one just nodding in quiet acquiescence. But "suggest" is also the wrong word to me because the follower usually by definition isn't leading: the leader suggests (which is what makes him the leader), and the follower responds. In that response there may be other suggestions than what the leader originally intended, but that's actually resisting in my book (or "modifying", but that's word whose meaning would be hard to grasp without context). Hard to convey in words, but easy to feel. > Few women I encounter are good about being able to interpret the music. Fancy that. I was going to say that about most men -- they're usually too engrossed in the steps to notice the music too much, while the women can *choose* when to act and *can* actually listen to the music with more than a quarter brain. Even when the men actually do manage to make a sequence that fits, it takes a good follower to get the timing *exactly right*, in my experience. From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 09:30:41 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? Message-ID: <836246.80120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am focusing on the front crosses or front ochos however they are called in close embrace. Viz: Eduardo Masci and Maria are doing a lot of them here: http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI They are not easy but anyone having a suggestion or seeing a way to make it happen... It often feels to me that there is not enough room to do them in close embrace. At least it is difficult for me and my practise partner. I open a bit more for her to do them. The thing that has me curious is that I tried it one time with a different partner and she did it perfectly from a turn to the right side, ocho cortado style. I didn't feel like I opened at all but maybe I did.....I noticed that I hit a left forward step hard and rebounded to my right and then a right side step hard and rebounded back towards forward to end the turn to the right..the momentum was important, I figured. so, now I know that it can be done..I'm just asking for any of your thinking on this topic. If I could add these turns to the right and left along with the sweeping reversals of the woman back in the original direction...wow, I'll be home! http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI From dchester at charter.net Tue Sep 23 10:10:05 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:10:05 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <20080923101005.PMZLZ.171526.root@mp18> In a lot of ways, this debate reminds me of the salon (or viejo) vs nuevo argument. It seems to me that people sometime forget that Tango is an art, and not something like physics, where you can possibly solve a differential equation or conduct a lab experiment to prove your point and declare it a fact. In art, people have different opinions or philosophies, and this is just another example. The verbs "to lead" and "to invite" have different meanings, thus to say a lead is an invitation would seem to be a poor use of words, (even though it may be the PC thing to say). To lead is to guide or to direct, where as to invite is basically to make a request (which can be accepted or rejected). These are not the same things at all. As I see it, there are different philosophies on how people believe the lead and follow should work. For me, I lead steps. I do not invite them, but I sometimes invite embellishments. However, I accept that everyone doesn't agree with my philosophy. I sometimes wish that more people on Tango-L would realize and accept that there are many different opinions on many aspects of Tango, and just because you are insistent that something is a fact, doesn't at all mean that anyone else does. A little tolerance of differing opinions could go a long way. Not everyone likes the way I lead, but enough people do, so that I can have a pleasant evening at a milonga without having to dance with broomsticks. I will freely admit that I have a long way to go in my learning of this art, however. Regards, David --------------------------------------------------------------------- > But given a lead is an invitation, she can certainly *resist* a lead, i.e. change > the timing. She can even take over the lead momentarily (which is no problem > with me, but bruises the ego of some other leaders). . . . > Anyone who can't deal with this is perfectly free to dance with a broomstick. From larrynla at juno.com Tue Sep 23 13:15:52 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:15:52 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <20080923.101552.4595.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com> There are times when it is the duty of the woman to ignore or resist a lead - when to do what the leader requests will get someone hurt. I pride myself on keeping alert to what's going on around me and protecting the women I dance with. But I'm not perfect. Sometimes I miss danger, as when some couple suddenly changes direction out of my sight. Or rushes into our path. Or a woman may have a problem that I don't or can't perceive. A favorite partner of mine recently resisted doing a boleo that I lead, telling me afterward that she had hurt her back and the twisting action hurt it more. Sometimes a woman will ignore a lead because she has not learned the movement I want her to do. Or because my lead is unclear. If I "speak" unclearly to her it is her duty not to quess what I "asked" her to do. Before guys get all huffy and swear never to dance with someone again they should ask themselves if her lack of response is THEIR fault. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com ____________________________________________________________ Click here to compare prices and features on point of sale systems. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieUohoVKx9LGX4bWemLPlpZ2mqbH8DECEFXLr7nULsmRJyc6/ From al at sgi.com Tue Sep 23 13:21:39 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:21:39 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <20080923101005.PMZLZ.171526.root@mp18> References: <20080923101005.PMZLZ.171526.root@mp18> Message-ID: <48D925A3.5090607@sgi.com> David wrote: > For me, I lead steps. There's much more to tango than the "where". There's also the "how"... But I suspect that we're all in violent agreement. From tomek at rabarbar.eu.org Tue Sep 23 13:38:15 2008 From: tomek at rabarbar.eu.org (Tomasz Dymek) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:38:15 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? In-Reply-To: <836246.80120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <836246.80120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48D92987.6070003@rabarbar.eu.org> Mario pisze: > I am focusing on the front crosses or front ochos however they are called in close embrace. > Viz: Eduardo Masci and Maria are doing a lot of them here: > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI > They are not easy but anyone having a suggestion or seeing a way to make it happen... > It often feels to me that there is not enough room to do them in close embrace. First You have to define close embrace. There are some theories about that. Someone can tell that close embrace is when couple is dancing with their chests mostly touching. But if they want to do some steps like forward ocho they make the embrace slightly relaxed. The other theory is that real close embrace is when there is slight tension or push toward the other partner and couple is maintaining this tension all the time (some people call this way of dacing "apilado"). I this case forward ocho is hard or impossible without loosing contact. To maintain contact You do ocho cortado instead of forward ocho. PS. Sorry for poor English. -- Tomasz Dymek (tomek at rabarbar.eu.org) From larrynla at juno.com Tue Sep 23 13:45:06 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:45:06 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Best time to visit Buenos Aires Message-ID: <20080923.104506.8573.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com> I've decided to spend a month (or I hope two) in Buenos Aires. When is the best time of year to go? Just judging from weather.com it seems that mid-summer, January and February, is the worst time, especially for tango lovers. I have heard that many milongas do not have air conditioning, or do not turn it on. Mid-winter, June and July, don't seem to be a bad time. The average temperature is from high-40s to high-50s and there's not much rain during that time. April and November seem like the best time to go, with temps averaging from 60 to mid-70s, and some rain but not a lot or often. What do you BsAs residents or frequent travelers say? Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com ____________________________________________________________ Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigjRkR7DcVILhB2bmBvv095MJAANjmVZkYqiS49imfQ5nL14/ From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 13:52:13 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:52:13 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? Message-ID: Tomasz wrote: > First You have to define close embrace. Yes. In watching the video that Mario linked, I don't see that Eduardo Masci is using "close embrace". There is daylight between him and Maria. For Mario - you might try more contra body torsion for both you and her. -joe From MACFroggy at aol.com Tue Sep 23 14:02:25 2008 From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:02:25 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Best time to visit Buenos Aires Message-ID: Larry, The "best time" for tango dancers depends on more than the weather. Sure the weather is a consideration. For this reason, the "tango tourists" swarm into BsAs in the spring and fall, when the weather is the most mild and pleasant. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view. Spring and fall also see the tango festivals and events (CITA, for example) that are designed to bring tourists here. More tourists in the milongas in spring and fall mean more competition to dance with the locals; it means more people to dance with if you don't exclude dancing with foreigners; it also brings out more locals who prefer dancing with tourists. So the energy changes a lot. There are also lots of tourists in summer (Jan, Feb) because they want to escape winter in their countries. I suppose you could call them snow birds. The milongas are hot in summer, but then they can be very hot in winter as well. There's a saying: It's always summer in the milongas. Winter (July, August) can be very quiet with few tourists, but also with fewer locals who don't like to go out in the cold, or who are on winter vacation in Bariloche. So in my opinion, after considering all the pros and cons, the best time to come is when you can. Besos, Cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) From ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar Tue Sep 23 14:49:28 2008 From: ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar (Maria Olivera) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:49:28 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Best time to visit Buenos Aires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c91dad$1c568630$55039290$@com.ar> As a resident, I would definitely recommend November. It's warm but not hot, all the trees are green and the "Jacarand?s" (our most beautiful tree) are in bloom, so many places of the city are covered with flowers. It's nice to wear some light clothes and bring a light jacket with you if you go out at night. April is good too, but the leafs are falling and it's a little more rainy. I hope you enjoy your staying there! It's a wonderful city. Take care, Mar?a -----Mensaje original----- De: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] En nombre de MACFroggy at aol.com Enviado el: martes, 23 de septiembre de 2008 03:02 p.m. Para: larrynla at juno.com; tango-l at mit.edu Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Best time to visit Buenos Aires Larry, The "best time" for tango dancers depends on more than the weather. Sure the weather is a consideration. For this reason, the "tango tourists" swarm into BsAs in the spring and fall, when the weather is the most mild and pleasant. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view. Spring and fall also see the tango festivals and events (CITA, for example) that are designed to bring tourists here. More tourists in the milongas in spring and fall mean more competition to dance with the locals; it means more people to dance with if you don't exclude dancing with foreigners; it also brings out more locals who prefer dancing with tourists. So the energy changes a lot. There are also lots of tourists in summer (Jan, Feb) because they want to escape winter in their countries. I suppose you could call them snow birds. The milongas are hot in summer, but then they can be very hot in winter as well. There's a saying: It's always summer in the milongas. Winter (July, August) can be very quiet with few tourists, but also with fewer locals who don't like to go out in the cold, or who are on winter vacation in Bariloche. So in my opinion, after considering all the pros and cons, the best time to come is when you can. Besos, Cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 01:33:10 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <000001c91d82$6a2196f0$2e01a8c0@Anne> Message-ID: <724782.17376.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Anne wrote: "- but the resistance is more often the ONLY response to a poor lead...the only physical means to let the leader know he is inviting a poor lead that is impossible to follow..." Sean here. 1. Hi Anne, would you reconsider that position? I think "ONLY" is a limit you impose for yourself. There must be many other possible responses. I don't think a typical good follower is likely to resist a "poor lead that is impossible to follow". In my experience, her more likely response is to refuse that man's invitation to dance. So if I see a woman dancing with that sort of a man, I am not likely to invite her to dance. The odds of her being a "good" dancer are just too low. 2. To everyone: It seems that any idea proposed on this list is subject to debate, except one. Somehow the idea that this dance is a conversation is sacred on Tango-L. I think we ought to reconsider that myth. In my experience, "conversation" is inadequate to describe the relationship between a man and a woman dancing tango. "Fusion" and "Synergy" come closer to the mark. The idea that the dance must be a conversation is another self imposed limit. There are many other possibilities. Since a conversation requires at least two participants, imposing that restriction on the dance seems to preclude the possibility of dancing as one. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 04:03:52 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <373764.24071.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Alexis Cousein wrote: > Whether "resist" is an appropriate word is a matter of semantics. And I disagree that it's totally unkosher for her to "force room" or "take over", at least if you understand the context (i.e. don't take the words > as if they came from a military dictionary). Trini, here. I think we're thinking along the same lines, but the choice of words is extremely important because it is difficult for women to understand how to express themselves within the context of the man's marca. And it's important for men to understand that they shouldn't be wusses, either. One thing I should point out is that generally speaking, men can easily overpower a woman. Especially, when she's normally on one foot and he is on two. So when I'm following a man who easily outweighs me, all I can do is propose something else. It is extremely rare for me to have to "ground down" to truly resist and overcome a man's power (only 3 men in 13 years of dancing) and it was a lot of work. So, if a man is going to take an action that may collide us into another couple, I can suggest that we stay where we are or suggest a slower timing or something else that will avoid a collision. However, from a strength point alone, he could overcome this proposal and we'd go crash. So what makes him decide to listen when I do suggest a stop? The fact that such a proposal from me is out of the ordinary. The fact that I don't "resist" him when we're dancing. For women who want to improve their dancing, they also have to understand that each leader may need a different response (something men understand more easily than women). For example, one man might like my free leg to close more quickly on turns whereas another might enjoy the feeling of my leg "whooshing" at it's natural speed. If the first man alters his lead to encourage me to close more quickly, then I'm likely not going to resist. Why? Because it's also my responsibility to make the dance enjoyable for him, as well, and to give him the chance to give me his best dance. If I resist his lead to close a little more quickly, then I'm depriving him of that and could be depriving us of something interesting. I've encountered too many women, who have this idea they can modify the dance at will...and they can't understand why the really good men don't want to dance with them. These are women who look fine on the dance floor and are often dancing for years. The fact is that they need to learn how to follow a lot better first. > Fancy that. I was going to say that about most men -- > they're usually too engrossed in the steps to notice the music too much, while the women can *choose* when to act and *can* actually listen to the music with more than a quarter brain. Women who lead well enough to dance socially at a milonga will often develop better musicality skills than women who don't. I know several women whose deejaying skills improved after they learned how to lead. Both credited having to hear the music differently as a leader. Aside from women leaders, I find that more men are willing to work on their musicality than women and the results show. Could be our regional differences. Trini de Pittsburgh From alex at tangofuego.us Wed Sep 24 05:49:09 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:49:09 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Las Vegas Tango Weekend :: Shoe Mix Up Message-ID: <20080924094912.8B664B55F21@mit.edu> I'm writing for a friend...he was just at the Las Vegas Tango Weekend this past weekend... Here is his message... I picked up the wrong shoe bag Sunday night at the Las Vegas Weekend. The black Supradance bag has a pair of men's Supradance black leather plain toe shoes. I also left a pair of new Jorge Nell practice shoes in a black Jorge Nell bag, which I had just purchased. If they are owned by someone reading Tango-L, let me know and I'll send them back priority mail. And if anyone happened to pick up my Jorge Nell practice shoes, let me know. Thanks! From al at sgi.com Wed Sep 24 10:46:15 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:46:15 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <724782.17376.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <724782.17376.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DA52B7.3080809@sgi.com> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: "Fusion" and "Synergy" come closer to the mark. The way some are slanted against follower initiative on this list, why not propose the word "assimilation"? As in "Resistance [pun intended] is futile; you will be assimilated". I'm all for synergy - but not dominance and assimilation. From al at sgi.com Wed Sep 24 11:25:16 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:25:16 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <373764.24071.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <373764.24071.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DA5BDC.7070504@sgi.com> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Alexis Cousein wrote: > >> Whether "resist" is an appropriate word is a matter of semantics. And I disagree that it's totally unkosher for her to "force room" or "take over", at least if you understand the context (i.e. don't take the words >> as if they came from a military dictionary). > > Trini, here. I think we're thinking along the same lines, but the choice of words is > extremely important because it is difficult for women to understand how to express > themselves within the context of the man's marca. Agreed. And as I said, it's easier to feel than to describe. > And it's important for men to understand that they shouldn't be wusses, either. Yes. It's hard for a follower to respond to a lead that isn't crystal clear - if you'll forgive me bringing up the conversation again, it's really hard to say something meaningful in return when someone jsut mumbled something to you. As a leader, you do *have* to know what you're doing, and have to propose it unambiguously. > So, if a man is going to take an action that may collide us into another couple, > I can suggest that we stay where we are or suggest a slower timing or something else that > will avoid a collision. However, from a strength point alone, he could overcome this proposal > and we'd go crash. So what makes him decide to listen when I do suggest a stop? > The fact that such a proposal from me is out of the ordinary. These proposals and suggestions come in all shades and strengths. It's not an on/off proposition, and I'm sure many followers suggest without even realising it (but if the leader maintains a good connection, *he*'ll know). > If the first man alters his lead to encourage me to close more quickly, > then I'm likely not going to resist. Why? Because it's also my responsibility > to make the dance enjoyable for him, as well, and to give him the chance to > give me his best dance. And because you understand that it still makes sense; if he'd try to encourage you to do things that don't make sense or jar with the music, consciously or inconsciously, your response would be different. It's still something subtly negotiated between partners, and one of the reasons the first dance with a stranger often isn't the most enjoyable one of the tanda. But we are in agreement - the follower must at times adapt to the whims of his leader. You can't constantly fight to impose your view of things or you're not going to enjoy yourself. But I'd like to point out that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander: it's not going to be pleasant for the follower if you as a leader impose *your* views on timing etc. too much and without any regard for subtle hints coming your way. It's also cutting yourself off from new experiences: if you insist all your followers bend to your will and preferences, you'll never experience the joy of the unexpected. > I've encountered too many women, who have this idea they can modify the > dance at will... You're in a coalition government during the tanda, so you can't have it your way without negotiating and convincing the other side. It's bad thinking, just like thinking that you must submit to the will of the other just because you're the follower. That holds for both leader and follower. > I find that more men are willing to work on their musicality than > women and the results show. Could be our regional differences. > I'm sure that plays a part. Also, our pet peeves are probably different, so we're bound to notice different things. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 11:43:08 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:43:08 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or fought Message-ID: "The way some are slanted against follower initiative on this list,why not propose the word "assimilation"? As in "Resistance [pun intended]is futile; you will be assimilated". I'm all for synergy - but not dominance and assimilation. " To dance tango and any ballroom dance is very simple: The "man" leads and the "woman" follows. We have already discussed possible changes of roles and we also assumed that the leader is a good dancer and leads with impeccable clarity. We assumed, in the original discussion, that there was an intentional resistance or fight of the lead on the part of the follower. Possible reasonable exceptions to this rule were presented: 1- The leader does not see that he is going to collide against another couple and the follower "stops" (warns) him; this is totally reasonable. 2 - The leader is a poor dancer and presents confusing leads; this possibility was expressly removed from the original discussion. 3 - The woman has some physical impediment, such as back ache; in this case , the woman normally alerts the man with respect to this problem and requests a simple tango, devoid of moves that might worsen her condition. Traditional Argentine tango requires that the man leads and the woman follows, period, there are not alternatives with respect to this. Now you may dance any way you prefer, this is fine, I wish you good luck, but do not go around saying that you dance Argentine Tango. What you are dancing is something quite different, with a different feeling, a different technique and a different relationship with your partner. There are many poetic expressions with respect to tango; they are not to be taken as if they were part of the Bible. Some of the original meaning of words are lost in translation. What you call 'lead" we call "Marca". Marca is a word of many meanings but in this case it is used in the sense of "signal". This means that the man has something in mind for both as a couple to do, and "signals" the woman to do it. In tango evolution there are certain elements that remained constant throughout the times. Tango reflects, as I said before, the relationship between the man and the woman: The invitation to dance, the encounter on the floor, the embrace, are all part of this ritual. Freedom of improvisation is another constant present in our tango. Changes may be observed in style, posture, choreographic moves, figures and steps, the music, etc, along 100 years of evolution. The man eventually develops his own personal style and develops the same inside of the couple. The woman always adapts to the style of the man. Finally there is a fusion so that both members of the couple "think" and "act" in consonance and harmony. Summary: I do not know what is that you are dancing but I know what you are not dancing. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 13:22:46 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:22:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] What Argentine Tango is not Message-ID: I have been informed on this list that if I dance other than "milonguero style", then I am not dancing real Argentine Tango. I have been informed on this list that if I allow the woman latitude to reject my lead indication, then I am not dancing real Argentine Tango. I have been informed on this list that if I don't require the woman to adapt to MY style, then I am not dancing real Argentine Tango. By extension, I am fairly certain that much of what I dance as tango would be shunned by real Argentine Tango dancers. I think that I like my tango, call it what you may, better than Argentine Tango. _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 16:22:24 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:22:24 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: One of the things that I really do not like in this list are those that distort and twist anything that you say. It almost sounds like the politicians in this election. Here is what I said : "The man eventually develops his own personal style and develops the same inside of the couple. The woman always adapts to the style of the man." This is IMO a reference to a different subject than the one we were discussing. I did not say that if a woman does not adapts to the man's style they are not dancing tango...but when you observe the different couples dancing tango it is obvious that the woman attempts to adjust to the man's style. I said and repeat if you dance "something" in which you lead and the woman intentionally ignores and fights your lead, then you are not dancing the A.Tango that I have known. I also said that you may dance anything that you like, enjoy yourself and if you wish to call it A. Tango, go ahead. There is total freedom and improvisation in A. Tango. When I said "Summary: I do not know what is that you are dancing but I know what you are not dancing" ... ...I was referring to Salsa, Mambo, Merengue, Fox-trot, Swing, Hustle, Americam Waltz, Viennese Waltz, Samba, Quick Step, Rumba, Bolero and any other ballroom dance. I wonder who said that if do not dance milonguero style you are not dancing A. Tango. This is another absurdity. We have discussed at nauseam that there are different tango styles and Milonguero is one of them. Summary; please give your opinion without twisting or distorting. Best regards, Sergio Bibliography : "Tango Un Baile bien Porte?o" by Nicole Nau-Klapwijk she says (page 110): " The woman adapts automatically to the man's style, but she never modifies her essence. The way she stands, and she moves belong to her. Her "swing" her posture and dynamics have an influence on her partner, at the very least, in an indirect way. If I dance with determination, it may happen that sometimes, I may take him to dance certain things that I felt before he did, this happens in such a way that he is not conscious of such an influence. He accepts it without knowing. We become so much together that my ideas become his ideas. _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 21:45:46 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:45:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: Sergio wrote: >> Traditional Argentine tango requires that the man leads and the woman follows, period, there are not alternatives with respect to this. >> Now you may dance any way you prefer, this is fine, I wish you good luck, but do not go around saying that you dance Argentine Tango. This is what I was reacting to and I don't think that I distorted anything. I don't dance like you prescribe, and hence I don't dance Argentine Tango. I work very hard to give any partner whatever latitude she wants. With my regular partner, we totally treat the dance as a conversation. I suggest a lead, and she follows. But she follows as she chooses and goes where she will. I then must react / follow her interpretation of my lead. Of course, I can lead so clearly(?) that she really has no choice, and sometimes I do. But that is only when I am too tired to really dance. Then I just lead with clarity and dance through her. Cheers, David _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 07:09:13 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 04:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: <153882.15978.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's really frustrating to be continuously reading the debating that goes on in Tango-L and suspect that it is apples vs oranges that are being described. Here again, I suspect, that one person is talking about close embrace social dancing and the other about Nuevo that is danced with distance between the partners and often to hardly recognisable Tango music....two very different animals if we are splitting hairs about communication between partners. It was Jean-Pierre who told how he often just 'shook his head' after finally seeing how a Tango-L poster danced in person. I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows..but if there is something that I'm missing please post a video of it. Can you find a couple, on YouTube even, doing what you are suggesting? I can find dozens doing the lead/follow roles where not much choice is given the woman's role..except perhaps for a tap of the toe or a moment to embellish freely in place. Are we discussing apples and oranges? Is there a real debate going on or just another Red Herring that we are discussing? From al at sgi.com Thu Sep 25 08:29:44 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:29:44 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <153882.15978.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <153882.15978.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DB8438.9030209@sgi.com> Mario wrote: > I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners... You can't see it (at least not directly). You can only feel it. If you haven't, well,... Can you see the complex feedback mechanisms that people use for bipedal motion (walking) without falling flat on their faces, or the ballistic reflex that lets someone turn his head and continue to look the same way? Yet I can assure you they are there, and there are thousands of pages of peer-reviewed literature describing the mechanisms. *In*directly, it's very easy to see (to take one extreme -- as I said, there are all shades of greys, including leaders who will listen to the follower to see her response but insist on his interpretation of almost everything, and this does not apply to them) a leader who "just" leads without *any* regard for whether the follower is tracking (so the couple moves in compliant motion). It looks more like bungee-jumping than tango, and the follower looks more like she's handled like a sack of potatoes than someone to care for. From al at sgi.com Thu Sep 25 08:45:28 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:45:28 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DB87E8.6030703@sgi.com> David Thorn wrote: > Sergio wrote: >>> Traditional Argentine tango requires that the man leads and the woman follows, >>> period, there are not alternatives with respect to this. Except that there's a world of subtle realities that influences what these words mean. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that a follower *must* influence absolutely every aspect of the dance -- she *can* just go with the flow. I just want to point out that if she exerts an influence that is not necessarily incorrect or Not Argentine Tango. But then, I haven't been known to be a great champion of orthodoxy. As ever, the orthodoxy seems to be defended *in bitter earnest* especially by non-porte?os; porte?os, even though they have a knack at defending their opinion vigorously, in their heart of hearts tend to be more lenient -- if they have blinders on (to make a point during conversation over a mate), at least they're conscious they're choosing to put them on. After all, *they* come from BsAs, so they don't have to *think* like the Spanish Inquisition just to be more Argentine than a Porte?o, they can just pretend to ;). By the way, I'm not describing Triny. She's not a self-appointed crusader, but someone genuinely worried that placing too much emphasis on "conversation" may make followers into bad followers and leaders into wusses, and her posts and responses *do* offer the necessary nuance to distill exactly what she means, and she does try to understand exactly what others mean. Our different perceptions are coloured by the pet peeves we have and probable differences in our respective dancing communities (and yes, our style of dancing, evolved through our own preferences). I don't dance like you prescribe, and hence I don't dance Argentine Tango. ...as he defines it. From robinctara at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 09:10:31 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:10:31 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Message from Verena Message-ID: <9e1cc4860809250610w72d450ddycece38b123204f85@mail.gmail.com> I received this message from Verena. She has been trying to post it to the list with no luck. "I didn't join this list for many years. Omar Vega's death made me return to it. To end all rumors before they begin: There were no drugs involved! He always hated drugs. At the moment nobody can tell what he died of. Even the doctors don't know. The only thing they know for sure is that he couldn breath any more. There are many stories about him. I can asure you, he could read. Not as well as people in the western world can, that' right. As a kid he never had the time to go to school. He had to survive. But he was no orphan. He entered school when he was an adult. And the friend who made him go to school, took him out to a milonga. Thats how he got in touch with tango. And tango became his life. Pepito Avellaneda was his most important teacher. For me, and I assume for many others too, Omar was el rey del traspie. Whoever danced with him, will probably never forget it. He once told me, that when he stars to dance he' enters a bubble. All music around him and nothing there except music and his partner. He's buried at Chacarita. And there will be a Milonga for him this wednesday in Buenos Aires." From al at sgi.com Thu Sep 25 09:41:33 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:41:33 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <417948.81724.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <417948.81724.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DB950D.4070504@sgi.com> Mario wrote: > Two decent dancers on this forum > are debating the > communication back and forth between leader and follow and are stating > that they are very different styles.. one from the other. Didn't you > get that??? Uhm - you mustn't have been following very closely. > Well, I'm sure that Sergio is > feeling the feedback of his partner..she is slow, fast, lithe, > heavy..whatever ..we are NOT > talking about this ..are we?? Yes, we are. How slow can she be when he wants to be fast? How heavy can she be when she wants time for adornos, wants more time to be in sync with the music, or when the leader pushes her into a forbidden zone? If you think there's a single answer and that a cookie-cutter approach will do, you live in a very simple world (or at least you think you do). > C'mon, I'm tired of bulls**t pseudo debates... Then I suggest you dance instead of hurling insults on mailing lists. From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 10:35:49 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: <136658.13982.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK..So, both debaters are in contact and communication with their partners...then they do NOT dance differently in that respect..then, what the heck are we debating here?? Can you give me an answer to this? I'll bet you can't ...or at least you will have to change the topic of the so called debate to do it... you're sooooo smart. ps..this is my last post this week ..have fun without me. From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 12:40:08 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:40:08 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: I would Mario wrote: >> love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli >> doesn't do this..he leads and she follows.. In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes: Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as contributions to musicality are certainly part of this. But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to. Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my regular partner & I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety, in close embrace. And yes, probably 60% of the time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that. Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her left). My lead indicates the degree to which rotates. I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to side and we make no progress LOD? etc. As she rotates I step to my right to "receive the ocho", but I give the lead indication for her to step prior to my stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to mine.) Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Yes, that TOTALLY breaks frame, but so what? I am however compelled to deal with it, for example by leading her to subsequently pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot. Now we are back in the embrace, but facing counter LOD. I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD. etc. Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this: I lead, she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc. Cheers, David _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From nina at earthnet.net Thu Sep 25 12:48:24 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:48:24 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Quoting David Thorn : > > I would Mario wrote: >>> love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even >>> Chichi Fromboli >>> doesn't do this..he leads and she follows.. > > In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes: > > Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as > contributions to musicality are certainly part of this. > But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to. > Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my > regular partner & I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety, > in close embrace. And yes, probably 60% of the > time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that. > > Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her > left). My lead indicates the degree to > which rotates. I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to > side and we make no progress LOD? etc. > As she rotates I step to my right to "receive the ocho", but I give > the lead indication for her to step prior to my > stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to > mine.) Spose that she sees that the floor > behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten > to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might > over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to > actually be counter LOD. She has even been > known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I > step to receive her ocho. Yes, that TOTALLY > breaks frame, but so what? I am however compelled to deal with it, > for example by leading her to subsequently > pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot. Now > we are back in the embrace, but facing counter > LOD. I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD. etc. > > Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this: I lead, > she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and > then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc. > > Cheers, > > David > _________________________________________________________________ > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 13:22:02 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The balancing act Message-ID: <722426.70964.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Some of the recent discussion has in some ways suggested that men ought to pander to women. Puh-lease... I?m going on record of saying that it is okay for men to be "demanding" of women in the same way that women are "demanding" of men. The latter is more prevalent than the former. In fact, gentlemen, you expect that, right? And trying to meet those expectations is the road to being a better dancer. The same holds true for women. Those women who rise to the challenge become the true queens ? the women that the men search out, the ones for whom the men will await their turn even if it takes all night/morning, the ones that they?ll be glowing about for days, weeks or even months later. These are the women that when you guys get together and compare notes, you?ll talk about whether you think you made her happy or made her uncomfortable. I?ve have never heard a conversation in which a man (even the best ones) bragged about how great he was to such a woman. No, it is always "did she like my dancing?" What gal wouldn?t enjoy being thought of in that way? It might not even be a conscious goal, but something that just happens. It requires the same work and the same demanding partners. Some may see that the "requirement" of women to fit in their expression within the context of the man?s marca as onerous. But there are enough women out there who will see it as an interesting challenge toward being a better dancer. But understand the key ? that the demanding partners are the men that the woman really wants to dance with, not just anybody. Granted, initially a woman might pick the wrong partner to try to please. But she?ll eventually figure that out and she?ll make better choices. Let?s also understand the historical context of how this issue has become a debate. For years, teaching tango was pattern-oriented with little emphasis on partner communication. Then came the backlash with teachers emphasizing that men need to consider the comfort of the woman above all else. Now, let?s take this full circle. Now, the danger is man compensating for everything the woman does that she really doesn?t learn anything. That?s okay. But then she can?t understand why she?s the one asking the man to dance and not the other way around. Or why he makes excuses and doesn?t dance with her. So it really comes down to a balancing act, shifting one way and then the other, and back and forth again and again as one progresses in tango. And the elements that determine these things become finer and finer and more difficult to discuss. Eventually, it all works out with people at the same level dancing with each other. For purposes of discussion, it helps to stay open-minded about others? experiences, to realize that Rome wasn?t built in a day, to know that perhaps future experiences might lead you to think differently, and the same holds true for others whether they realize it or not. Trini de Pittsburgh From al at sgi.com Thu Sep 25 13:23:29 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:23:29 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> Message-ID: <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > So what is the value of an over-explained tango? > Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? From nina at earthnet.net Thu Sep 25 13:42:58 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:42:58 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> Message-ID: <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? Quoting Alexis Cousein : > Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >> So what is the value of an over-explained tango? >> > Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list > discussing a dance? ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 13:45:52 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <529127.16134.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn wrote: Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might > over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving > step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been > known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) > foot as I step to receive her ocho. Here, we can see the difference in this discussion. A more skilled follower would suggest an over-rotation and allow you to lead her against the LOD or to a back sacada or something completely different. If she's really good, she might even make you think that it was your idea in the first place. But at any point, she should be able to stop and allow you to do something else or continue with your original plan. Otherwise, she's backleading. Trini de Pittsburgh From tempehuck at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 14:22:14 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > Quoting Alexis Cousein : >> Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >>> >>> So what is the value of an over-explained tango? >> >> Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list >> discussing a dance? > > Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any > experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it > is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 14:38:01 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:38:01 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: Trini wrote: >> A more skilled follower would suggest an over-rotation and allow you to lead >> her against the LOD or to a back sacada or something completely different. I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the "I talk and you listen one" that is often presented. Perhaps you could provide a better and clearer example that a new dancer could easily understand??? Cheers, David _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From nina at earthnet.net Thu Sep 25 14:40:10 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:40:10 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> Message-ID: <20080925124010.t9vfhad9c0sgcoco@webmail.earthnet.net> My question was not a rhetorical one. What is the value? David's tango is what it is no matter what anyone thinks about it. He feels compelled to explain it over and over again. At the end, his tango is what it is and everyone else's as well. So what is the value of extensive explanations! Tango is a dance, and ,as such, is a transitory experience. So whatever ochos or movements that are being discussed, they no longer exist and probably cannot be repeated. So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? If it is a technical issue, then it could be just worked out in class. But what is the value of the verbal explanation? Please let me know because I am not getting it. Nina Quoting Huck Kennedy : > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >> Quoting Alexis Cousein : >>> Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >>>> >>>> So what is the value of an over-explained tango? >>> >>> Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list >>> discussing a dance? >> >> Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any >> experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it >> is, isn't it? > > I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting > around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than > simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But > this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express > purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that > it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very > premise of the mailing list. > > Huck > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 15:56:01 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <667458.87447.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn wrote: > > I don't know how you know my regular partner's > skill level. > I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with > clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. > If I don't open the door for her to choose to over > rotate, she doesn't do it. > If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back > sacada, she doesn't do it. > And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, > which suggestion I may accept or not. > But generally I do because I find that level of > conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. > > The point of my post was to provide a simple example to > Mario of a different form > of interaction than the "I talk and you listen > one" that is often presented. > Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the "I talk and you listen" variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. From nina at earthnet.net Thu Sep 25 16:03:46 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:03:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <667458.87447.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <667458.87447.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080925140346.y3k8y2gp88www0cw@webmail.earthnet.net> Thank you so much for your encouragement about the delete key. It is a lovely feature and I have practiced using it over the years with such enthusiasm that I dislocated a finger. However, I was not complaining about the useless posts. Instead, I asked a question about something that people seem to value. I would like to know what is valuable in extreme analysis of transitory experiences. Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" : > Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're > free to use your delete key. > > --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn wrote: >> >> I don't know how you know my regular partner's >> skill level. >> I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with >> clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. >> If I don't open the door for her to choose to over >> rotate, she doesn't do it. >> If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back >> sacada, she doesn't do it. >> And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, >> which suggestion I may accept or not. >> But generally I do because I find that level of >> conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. >> >> The point of my post was to provide a simple example to >> Mario of a different form >> of interaction than the "I talk and you listen >> one" that is often presented. >> > > Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the > day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for > the rest of the day. > > If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is > of the "I talk and you listen" variety - only she's the one doing > most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what > I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously > presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are > not a wuss. > > Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. > > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on > their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear > intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to > concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women > professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them > some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their > syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to > think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't > walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, > work on everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 16:45:19 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:45:19 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar=distort, twist Message-ID: David says "I suggest a lead, and she follows. But she follows as she chooses and ***goes where she will.***I then must react / follow her interpretation of my lead. Of course, I can lead so clearly(?) that she really has no choice, and sometimes I do. But that is only when I am too tired to really dance. Then I just lead with clarity and dance through her." Some time ago I taught to dance tango to a girl about 20 years old, she was a natural for this dance and learned very fast. Eventually we had a milonga, attended by many people from out of town. She is very attractive so everyone invited her to dance. At the end I asked her about her experience in this, her first milonga. She said - when I dance with you, you guide in such a way that I have no doubt, what so ever with respect to what I am supposed to do, but when I dance with some of the other men, (including an instructor from out of town) ...I have no idea about what I am supposed to do, so I do whatever I want, they follow and we continue dancing that way - . She disregarded my instruction: "If you do not have a clear lead, wait in place and do nothing till you get one." So this seems to be about several elements: 1 - We work hard about learning how to lead. We lead everything, even by omission. If I allow time she does more or slower ornaments, if I do not allow extra time she does less and more rapid embellishments. We lead the type of embellishment, low or high, boleos or amagues, etc. We "place" the woman, where she is supposed to go, so "she does not go wherever she wants to go. During early instruction she is taught precisely where to step with respect to the man, etc. As I already explained, she contributes, in her own feminine way, in her posture, the quality of her steps, the way she does everything influences what I am going to lead next. 2 - We do not go to the milonga, till we know how to dance, how to lead and how to navigate the floor. Usually it takes about two years of learning and practicing. Summary: you may dance as you wish, you may call what you do A. Tango as well. There are many ways to dance. The important thing is to have fun. Mario this is not about different tango styles, all the styles require a precise lead, the more complex the tango, the more skilled the man has to be with his lead. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 25 17:47:43 2008 From: bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk (Bruce Stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:47:43 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? In-Reply-To: <836246.80120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (Mario's message of "Tue\, 23 Sep 2008 06\:30\:41 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <836246.80120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87od2bgao0.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk> Mario writes: > I am focusing on the front crosses or front ochos however they are > called in close embrace. > Viz: Eduardo Masci and Maria are doing a lot of them here: > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI > They are not easy but anyone having a suggestion or seeing a way > to make it happen... It often feels to me that there is not > enough room to do them in close embrace. > At least it is difficult for me and my practise partner. I open a > bit more for her to do them. Some (obvious, I hope) suggestions. 1. Don't worry. If you can't do this particular movement, take it as an opportunity to explore other possible movements. 2. In particular, nothing wrong with ocho cortado. 3. What do you mean by "not enough room"? If you mean that your partner's body needs to turn more and that seems uncomfortable, then perhaps your body isn't moving enough, or perhaps hers could move less (using more dissociation). If you mean your legs or feet are in the way, then move them out of the way (i.e., step back a little), or start off with your feet further away from your parter's. [...] From larrynla at juno.com Fri Sep 26 00:32:28 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 04:32:28 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] (over)explained tango Message-ID: <20080925.213228.17454.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Nina Pesochinsky wrote -------> So what is the value of an over-explained tango? One or two people seemed to take this as a put-down of some sort. I thought it funny: a clever play on the words that David Thorn had just used, when he was talking about an over-turned ocho (one that turns more than 180 degrees) forced on him by a lady who stepped closer to him on the second half of the ocho than he was expecting. Or, reading her later response, I wondered if it was a question as well. As in "What is the fuss all about? Why are you spending so many words on an evanescent experience?" OK. I'll answer the question. As often happens, there are several forces working in the long detailed analyses of various subjects such as those you sometimes see on this list. Why (over)explain? For some people it's simply fun, a sort of game. For others, it's an attempt to help others on a subject they have mastered. Which often has the side benefit that the explanations force they themselves to re-think the subject, and to see it in a new (hopefully clearer!) light. For some it's the second part of that process, the clarifying of a subject to themselves, that is the reason for a discussion. And finally explaining can also be exhibitionism - look at me aren't I clever! ________________________________________ In other venues I've seen or heard people argue that explaining psychological phenomena is either useless or destroys the phenomena being discussed. For instance, they urge you not to discuss love. Or enjoyment of a sunset. Or the almost (or actually) transcendent experience of a dance. What they don't understand is that "left-brain" analytical and "right-brain" intuitive thinking are not enemies, any more than our left arms and hands are enemies of our right arms and hands. They work together - or should. A person with a strong left arm/brain AND a strong right arm/brain is MUCH more effective than if they must fumble along using one side or the other. The best scientists and engineers are not only technically expert but also very creative. This often shows up in their hobbies, such as painting or playing or even composing music - and dancing. And the best artists are invariably experts in the technical side of their art. Painters, for instance, typically have exhaustively studied such subjects as perspective and shadows and the effects several colors in a scene will synergistically effect the experience of the viewer. They will spend hours trying out a new set of paintbrushes and paints, learning their idiosyncracies. They may endlessly paint the same scene over and over again with tiny variations, and spend much thought on why some variations succeed or fail. So it is with dance. There are stages or phases to becoming good, and to having those transcendent experiences. One is learning the very basics, such as how to place one's foot when stepping: heel, toe, and midsole, which leads when, how much force to use, how to move the body from station to station of a position. Which is both a physical and an intellectual process. These activities you do in classes and practicas. Then you revisit those basics, but this time in the midst of a dance, when the virtue of all that practice and analysis pays off - by letting your body and your subconscious handle the details, letting you forget the basics, while your consciousness floats upon and above those earthly concerns. And you simply DO. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com ____________________________________________________________ Click to find out what your future holds. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOol4Tm1VvpgUg7HuDWEgwls3semkJx6J7xgO2nAZylv7W6/ From al at sgi.com Fri Sep 26 06:36:51 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:36:51 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <20080925124010.t9vfhad9c0sgcoco@webmail.earthnet.net> References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> <20080925124010.t9vfhad9c0sgcoco@webmail.earthnet.net> Message-ID: <48DCBB43.3070704@sgi.com> Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of > movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? Learning for others' experience? Perhaps trying to understand how others dance, feel, behave, so that I can try to better understand it as well (or even -- sacrilege! -- try something else /begin{sarcasm} than the Perfect and Obviously Only Correct Way to Dance Tango, which is naturally the way I'm dancing it right now /end{sarcasm})? What am I missing here? Why on earth are you on a mailing list for tango discussions whinging about why it's ohso futile to discuss tango? Why can't you just hit the delete button? Why do *you* consider it on-topic and valuable to others to whinge about whether the posts on this list are the exact type of posts you'd like the list to have? -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From al at sgi.com Fri Sep 26 06:46:28 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:46:28 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <529127.16134.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <529127.16134.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DCBD84.5030102@sgi.com> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > Here, we can see the difference in this discussion. > A more skilled follower You're assuming that in actual practice what you4re trying to describe and what he's describing are different, and implying skill levels you don't have personal knowledge of. > would suggest an over-rotation and allow you to lead her against the LOD or to a back sacada > or something completely different. If she's really good, she might even make you think that > it was your idea in the first place. I'm in complete agreement. > But at any point, she should be able to stop and allow you to do something else or > continue with your original plan. Otherwise, she's backleading. > Not only is she backleading, but she's backleading *badly*. As I have always posited that a leader should always be attentive to the responses to his (strong) invitation, it would be ridiculous to deny that the same holds -- and much more strongly -- for the follower's suggestions. We got enough bad leaders (at least in these parts). The last thing we need is to "compensate" them with an equal number of bad backleaders ;). -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From dchester at charter.net Fri Sep 26 09:15:37 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 9:15:37 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: <20080926091537.MBDFH.133490.root@mp13> > what the heck are we debating here?? I'm not sure what we are debating about at any moment in time, but I think what started it off was this statement, made a while back: "Like every other lead in Tango, it is an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even fight it." Now I'm really hoping that the person didn't mean exactly what these words are actually saying, but if they do, then it would seem that if the leader (for example) "invites" the follower to step back, it would be perfectly appropriate for the follower to fight it, and I guess, do something else. For some of us, this seems to be quite different from the traditional concept of leader and follower. I also don't think the OP was taking about unclear leads, collision avoidance, or any other special circumstances. >From there, we had some discussion on what an invitation is. At one point I was thinking that some might be happier if the terms Leader and Follower were changed to Inviter and Decider (as some appear to have strong opposition to the idea of the man leading and the woman following). I'll also admit that I'm still confused by someone who said they will sometimes "invite" a step where she has no choice but to follow. I didn't know that it was possible to give an "invitation" if there was no choice in the response. That sounds more like a directive than an invitation (or maybe even leading). Of course, we also heard from the "can dish it out but can't take it" crowd, with someone saying that people who disagreed with him could dance with broomsticks, and then later whining when a reply back to him wasn't up to "his" level of politeness. Maybe what we are really debating is how much can Argentine Tango change, before it is no longer Argentine Tango. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that question. Regards, David PS: Who made this quote? "I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she blinks, I lead that, too!" For the answer, see here: http://www.tangopulse.net/tango_pulse_sound_bites.htm From nina at earthnet.net Fri Sep 26 09:55:59 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:55:59 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <48DCBB43.3070704@sgi.com> References: <20080925104824.8wlmgzyslcwo4ck4@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DBC911.7060208@sgi.com> <20080925114258.2hd3pquvnkwwcwg8@webmail.earthnet.net> <20080925124010.t9vfhad9c0sgcoco@webmail.earthnet.net> <48DCBB43.3070704@sgi.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080926074801.01b229e8@earthnet.net> Alexis, Sorry that my question has made you a bit defensive. Assumptions are dangerous and misleading. I was not whining about anything. I also was not sensoring the types of posts. And... Larry has answered my question. Best, Nina At 04:36 AM 9/26/2008, Alexis Cousein wrote: >Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >>So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of >>movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? > >Learning for others' experience? Perhaps trying to understand how others >dance, feel, behave, so that I can try to better understand it as >well (or even -- sacrilege! -- try something else /begin{sarcasm} >than the Perfect and Obviously Only Correct Way to Dance Tango, >which is naturally the way I'm dancing it right now /end{sarcasm})? > >What am I missing here? Why on earth are you on a mailing list >for tango discussions whinging about why it's ohso futile to discuss >tango? Why can't you just hit the delete button? Why do *you* consider >it on-topic and valuable to others to whinge about whether the posts >on this list are the exact type of posts you'd like the list to have? > >-- >Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com >Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics >-- > From nina at earthnet.net Fri Sep 26 10:10:40 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:10:40 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] (over)explained tango In-Reply-To: <20080925.213228.17454.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> References: <20080925.213228.17454.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080926080949.01b607a0@earthnet.net> Thank you, Larry. This is a great explanation. Warm regards, Nina At 10:32 PM 9/25/2008, larrynla at juno.com wrote: >Nina Pesochinsky wrote -------> So what is the value of an >over-explained tango? > >One or two people seemed to take this as a put-down of some sort. I >thought it >funny: a clever play on the words that David Thorn had just used, when he was >talking about an over-turned ocho (one that turns more than 180 >degrees) forced >on him by a lady who stepped closer to him on the second half of the >ocho than >he was expecting. > >Or, reading her later response, I wondered if it was a question as >well. As in >"What is the fuss all about? Why are you spending so many words on >an evanescent >experience?" > >OK. I'll answer the question. > >As often happens, there are several forces working in the long >detailed analyses >of various subjects such as those you sometimes see on this list. Why >(over)explain? > >For some people it's simply fun, a sort of game. > >For others, it's an attempt to help others on a subject they have mastered. >Which often has the side benefit that the explanations force they >themselves to >re-think the subject, and to see it in a new (hopefully clearer!) light. > >For some it's the second part of that process, the clarifying of a subject to >themselves, that is the reason for a discussion. > >And finally explaining can also be exhibitionism - look at me aren't I clever! >________________________________________ >In other venues I've seen or heard people argue that explaining psychological >phenomena is either useless or destroys the phenomena being discussed. For >instance, they urge you not to discuss love. Or enjoyment of a sunset. Or the >almost (or actually) transcendent experience of a dance. > >What they don't understand is that "left-brain" analytical and "right-brain" >intuitive thinking are not enemies, any more than our left arms and hands are >enemies of our right arms and hands. They work together - or should. A person >with a strong left arm/brain AND a strong right arm/brain is MUCH >more effective >than if they must fumble along using one side or the other. > >The best scientists and engineers are not only technically expert >but also very >creative. This often shows up in their hobbies, such as painting or >playing or >even composing music - and dancing. > >And the best artists are invariably experts in the technical side of >their art. >Painters, for instance, typically have exhaustively studied such subjects as >perspective and shadows and the effects several colors in a scene will >synergistically effect the experience of the viewer. They will spend hours >trying out a new set of paintbrushes and paints, learning their >idiosyncracies. >They may endlessly paint the same scene over and over again with tiny >variations, and spend much thought on why some variations succeed or fail. > >So it is with dance. There are stages or phases to becoming good, >and to having >those transcendent experiences. One is learning the very basics, >such as how to >place one's foot when stepping: heel, toe, and midsole, which leads when, how >much force to use, how to move the body from station to station of a >position. >Which is both a physical and an intellectual process. These >activities you do in >classes and practicas. > >Then you revisit those basics, but this time in the midst of a >dance, when the >virtue of all that practice and analysis pays off - by letting your body and >your subconscious handle the details, letting you forget the basics, >while your >consciousness floats upon and above those earthly concerns. And you simply DO. > > >Larry de Los Angeles >http://shapechangers.wordpress.com > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Click to find out what your future holds. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOol4Tm1VvpgUg7HuDWEgwls3semkJx6J7xgO2nAZylv7W6/ > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Sep 26 10:16:59 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <20080926091537.MBDFH.133490.root@mp13> Message-ID: <25689.12400.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 9/26/08, David wrote: > > >From there, we had some discussion on what an > invitation is. At one point I was thinking that some might > be happier if the terms Leader and Follower were changed to > Inviter and Decider (as some appear to have strong > opposition to the idea of the man leading and the woman > following). I'll also admit that I'm still confused > by someone who said they will sometimes "invite" a > step where she has no choice but to follow. But, why would you invite her to do something she wouldn't want to do? With people you dance with regularly, you know what steps or styles they, so you lead/invite accordingly, right? I interpret "invite" as suggesting something so wonderful that, of course, she'd say "yes". Alternatives to lead/follow? Mark/Answer? Call/Response? Trini de Pittsburgh From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 26 12:19:23 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Who is leading? Who is following? Message-ID: "I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she blinks, I lead that, too!" Carlos Gavito "Maybe what we are really debating is how much can Argentine Tango change, before it is no longer Argentine Tango. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that question." David As I grew up in Buenos Aires, I have had the chance to meet at one time or another, most of the great tango dancers of our times, my impression is that they all, think like Gavito. I know this for a fact because I learned to dance from some of them. All the ballroom dances are led by the man and followed by the woman. I never heard anyone having any problem with that except in A. Tango. It would be interesting to know why? only in A. Tango, and not in swing, or fox-trot or cha-cha, etc. Is it because the other dances are symmetrical? . While the man does some figure the woman does a mirror image of the same, so both are doing the same, while in A.T. on the other hand, the foot work is quite asymmetrical, both members of the couple do different figures. In Argentina no one has any problem with the man leading and the woman following either. here people are proud to be either "a man" or "a woman" and they do not want any part of the other sex role, neither in life nor in tango, which is a reflection of life. They respect their individual feminine or masculine worlds. A. Tango IMO has a universal appeal in great part because it is one of the few places where the traditional roles of the man and the woman are preserved without consequences. So in Summary the problem appears outside the place of birth of tango, where people invented all sort of euphemistic words in order to be politically correct, and many try to re-invent the dance, without success so far. Experimentation and evolution are good things, but then, like David says, "how much, Argentine Tango, can change before it is no longer Argentine Tango. Finally I get the impression that "the woman ignoring or fighting the man's lead" has a lot to do with poor leading, and perhaps this originated some different style of tango, where the man leads, but in actuality he does not lead; where the woman follows,but in actuality she does not follow, who leads?, nobody leads ???, who follows, uhm? it seems that they both follow, but...even in free styling dancing one dancer mimics the other most of the time. Diversity is good. Best regards, Sergio 'La marca" became "an invitation" : what an invitation? IMO one that cannot be refused without upsetting the character of the dance. _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From tango at tangodesalon.de Fri Sep 26 13:26:45 2008 From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:26:45 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Festivalito con Amigos - Photos & Videos Message-ID: Dear friends! We want to thank all Tangueros and Tangueras who visited our "Festivalito con Amigos" in Saarbr?cken last weekend. More than 200 guest from all over the world (USA, Netherlands, France, Spain, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Germany) danced with us in the St. John's church and at our Milonga in the "Bootshaus". We are looking foward to the next event. Until then, enjoy the videos and the photos by Simone Sesterhenn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URmK2h-JZg0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5aORbABrS4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgSN7ib85ZM http://picasaweb.google.com/s.sesterhenn/KirchenballUndBootshausmilonga# Hasta la proxima, Melina, Detlef, Andreas, Anne-Cecile TANGOKOMBINAT www.tangokombinat.de www.youtube.com/tangokombinat info at tangokombinat.de From dchester at charter.net Fri Sep 26 17:45:53 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:45:53 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: <20080926174553.MXZIU.319267.root@mp14> > But, why would you invite her to do something she wouldn't want to do? Possible reasons why: 1) I don't always know what she wants to do. 2) My interpretation of the music may be different from her interpretation. 3) I had to respond/react to something happening on the dance floor. 4) A mistake (ie. my skills need to improve). > With people you dance with regularly, you know what steps or styles they, so you lead/invite accordingly, right? Yes, although I probably think more about styles in deciding who to ask to dance at the beginning of the tanda, as the song will definitely have an influence on what/how I lead (my style). During the dance I try to make some determination about what steps seems to go as expected, and which do not, so I know what to do (and stay away from) for the rest of the tanda. > I interpret "invite" as suggesting something so wonderful that, of course, she'd say "yes". That's a very nice way of interpreting it. Maybe some day I'll get to that level, where people think what I'm leading is wonderful. I've sometimes said that I try to lead "as if" it were an invitation, even if it really isn't. In any case, I agree with the sentiment of your post, in that I want my follower to enjoy the dance. Of course, I want to enjoy it too. In my eyes, for the dance to be a success, we both have to had enjoyed it. A lot of this stuff is self correcting, as if my lead is bad, people won't continue to dance with me, and if the follower can't follow (in the leader's eyes), she won't get asked to dance much. Hopefully, I'll keep learning and improving. Take care, David From martin at waxman.net Fri Sep 26 21:10:07 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:10:07 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] AT in Puerto Rico ? Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080926210917.01e4d528@waxman.net> Puerto Rican friends in New York City have become tangueros. They are going back to Puerto Rico for several months and would like to find Argentine Tango venues for classes, pr?cticas, and milongas. Any information would be appreciated. Marty E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10790e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From verena.faigle at arcor.de Mon Sep 22 17:15:05 2008 From: verena.faigle at arcor.de (Verena Faigle) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:15:05 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega Message-ID: I didn't join this list for many years. Omar Vega's death made me return to it. To end all rumors before they begin: There were no drugs involved! He always hated drugs. At the moment nobody can tell what he died of. Even the doctors don't know. The only thing they know for sure is that he couldn breath any more. There are many stories about him. I can asure you, he could read. Not as well as people in the western world can, that' right. As a kid he never had the time to go to school. He had to survive. But he was no orphan. He entered school when he was an adult. And the friend who made him go to school, took him out to a milonga. Thats how he got in touch with tango. And tango became his life. Pepito Avellaneda was his most important teacher. For me, and I assume for many others too, Omar was el rey del traspie. Whoever danced with him, will probably never forget it. He once told me, that when he stars to dance he' enters a bubble. All music around him and nothing there except music and his partner. He's buried at Chacarita. And there will be a Milonga for him this wednesday in Buenos Aires. He was a great dancer. Verena From sl at stevelittler.com Wed Sep 24 01:34:56 2008 From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:34:56 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Gainesville, FL Message-ID: <48D9D180.9010001@stevelittler.com> http://gainesvilletango.wordpress.com/ I just made a blog with current links for anyone looking to find Argentine Tango in Gainesville, FL since I just moved here 3 weeks ago and all the local Web sites and newspapers have mostly outdated/inaccurate information. (We basically have three venues now and occasional workshops with visiting teachers.) We have a nice little community of Tango lovers here in Gainesville and surrounding areas and all Tango dancers are welcome if you come to visit Gainesville. Best Regards, Steve Littler From privat at eero.no Wed Sep 24 09:11:11 2008 From: privat at eero.no (Eero Olli) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:11:11 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DA588F.354.8F97BA3@privat.eero.no> Hi Mario, I have a few suggestions, and will not talk about posture, as you for sure have thought about that already. Trying to put words on the front ocho in circular system of movement is difficult and obviously my explanation is not sufficient. Get somebody to show it to you! But know you know what you shold be asking for :-) On 23 Sep 2008 at 12:18, Mario wrote: > I am focusing on the front crosses or front ochos however they are called > in close embrace. > It often feels to me that there is not enough room to do them in close > embrace. First, when dancing close and taking a crossed step forward it is a very common mistake to let hip go forward. In other words, during a crossed right step forward, the right hip often goes forward too (rotates counterclockwise). Try to resist this. Try even to counter this by pulling your right hip one centimeter back while you stretch your right foot forward (this is just a image that helps). The same applies for men and women. If both know how to walk while holding their hip back, you can use a crossed front step almost everywhere time. Second, front ochos in close embrace works best if you use circular system of movement, (not linear). This variation of the front ocho is difficult, but delightful when it works. During the circular system front ocho in closed style, there are only two kinds of steps: the circular sidestep for the man, and the circular crossed forward step for the woman. Unfortunately, both steps are difficult. In addition, between each step is a turn of the direction. Two different systems of movement The way I use this concepts, in linear system of movement the center of both dancer (their weight) is moving in same direction, the lead is more in leader's chest, and a follower's response to a leaders weight shift is a weight shift (a step). In circular system of movement (used in most giros), the dancers weights are moving in the same direction in a circle (and thus in opposite directions in relation to a line), focus moves away from the leaders chest to leaders back, and a follower's response to a leaders weight shift is turning their hip (a pivot). Thus in the a front ocho upper bodies are together at all times, and one complete front ocho can be described as circular movement clockwise, change of direction with pivot, circular movement counter clockwise, change of direction with pivot. During the circular movement, the woman takes a crossed front step through the circle and the man takes an open sidestep following the circle with his back. Use a prologment of the women?s front step to place it. Change of direction is given by the leader's weight shift, which must be timed and placed so that initiates the pivot for the follower and gives the speed, duration and degree of her pivot. Because the follower is twisted, when the weight shift comes, this initiates a turn in the follower?s hip and foot. Leader initiates a new step through the circle for follower with movement of his back (in giro we both follow the circle, in front ocho the woman?s walk is through the circle) leader uses his back to turn the circle (think of it as a rope around the couple, grab the rope and rotate the circle). Getting started To start a circular forward ocho, first the man needs to communicate the change to circular system. Therefore, the easiest way to start is a circular sidestep clockwise, thus leader moves to the left, and follower to the right. (If this sidestep is linear, it is unintuitive, but possible, to change system of movement during the next step.) Now the leader keeps the circle rotating clockwise and invites the follower to a forward crossed step in circular, which is the first step of the ocho. An easy exercise is to alternate between starting the front ocho and ocho cortado from the circular sidestep. While in Ocho cortado the direction of movement in the circle changes, before completing the side step, while this particular forward ocho starts on the next step, if the circular movement from the sidestep just keeps going...and the rest of the lead is there. The circular sidestep A common problem is that the line of movement of the dancer?s weight does not follow the circle. Imagine that you are dancing inside a barrel or tube, and your back caresses the inside of this, at all times, during the ocho. No exceptions! Leaders are often lazy and do not turn their bodies enough prior to the followers pivot. Exercise for sidestep in circular system for both: Stand in the middle of a side step. Grab each others shoulder blades or hold just below them. Have some distance between the couple, so that the feet form a perfect square, and are placed directly below the circle created by the arms. Now imagine that you have wings and you want to fold them open, stretch your wings out, and around your partner. Imagine that you are inside the barrel and you need to move your back a little bit back to make contact with the inside of the barrel. Now start rotating the circle you have created. Move clockwise and counter clockwise, forth and back. Start with a small movement, and make it larger. Keep your back in contact with the barrel. Allow a small pivot in the feet, but keep both feet firmly placed on the ground. Keep making the movement larger, all way to their axes on both sides. We are so used to making linear sidesteps that these circular sidesteps are commonly poorly executed if at all. The crossed forward step with circular movement The leader should first place the womens forward cross step on the floor, with a movement of his whole body (back against the barrel). Leader should keep his back and the circle turning, while allowing the follower to strech her foot forward. Followers often have a problem with their forward cross step across the circle. Most importantly, their torso also crosses the circle, when it should not. Even if the follower?s shoes move through/across the circle, her centre (the weight of the body) must follow the circle. If the couple must open their abrazo to do the front ocho, one possible reason is that the follower does not know how to move her torso in the line of the circle. Thus, during the forward step, the followers back moves along the circle formed by the abrazo. Imagine being inside the barrel, and keeping your back in contact with the barrel through the whole step. No excuses! It is a hard thing to do, requiring a lot of dissociation. Keep your chest with the leader, turn your hip to the direction of the step, reach out with your foot, place it on the floor, and move your weight (not linearly to the point above your foot) in a circular movement caressing the inside of the barrel with your back. Wait for the follower?s weight shift, before turning your hip and pivot to complete the movement. The turn of direction and the pivot Allow the follower to arrive into her axis, by turning leaders chest/back until she is there (ie. Rotate the circle until both arrive their axes) then leader completes his own weightshift in the sidestep, which causes the follower to turn her hips towards the leader. Make this weight shift marked. If it is too gradual, followers hips will not turn enough, and she might be inclidend to continue the circular movement with a sidestep as in a giro. Because the leaders weight shift is strong her hips turn a little more, making the next forward step possible. During the weightshift give her an intention to move inside the circle, by changing the direction of the movement of the circle from clockwise to counter-clockwise. This change should came during the follower?s pivot, but before she has turned her hips and feet so that they are pointing towards the leaders weight. The change of movement happens first in the leader?s back. Thus there is a very short moment, while the leaders weight is completing a step (going down) and the circular movement in the back is allready going to the other direction. Allow the inertia in followers hips to move forward, across the circle. Give the follower time to do her part! The speed of the followers pivot depends of speed of the leaders weightshift. The size of the pivot (degree of pivot) is given by a combination of timing of the weightshift, the dancers placement in relation to each other, and the degree of dissosiation prior to the pivot. This allows for many different ways to manipulate the pivot, which is great. Now, it is important to notice which way the direction of movement changes and the timing. If leader gives a strong weight shift for a large pivot, but waits a little to long for giving the direction for the next forward step, the follower is on the way to a forward boleo. Exercises: Experiment with the degrees of pivot and speed of pivot in forward ocho. Do many planeos, both small and large, and observe what the leader can do to pivot the follower without using his arms. These principles apply also in this kind of ocho. Timing and continuity The front ocho in circular system of movement is characterized by its fluidity. It is impossible to do this chunked to many parts. The sum is more than its parts. The bodies are in continuous movement, with a natural flow. Even if there is the change of direction, at this moment, the follower?s hips are turning, containing some energy that can be sent into the new direction. It feels like an ocean wave. The follower is the wave, and the leader is the beach. If you time the movements right the waves are smooth, and but if you time it wrong, they break hard. The leader and follower never do the same thing simultaneously. This can be confusing, but it adds a layer of complexity to the dance. The dancers are of course perfectly timed in relation to the music, but the "steps" are not synchronized like in a march. They are much more connected to the roles, and are more like: step - response - step - response. Happy ochos! Best, Eero -- Eero Olli http:\\eero.no From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 01:10:35 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace? Message-ID: <125764.27892.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I agree. Contra-body torsion is extremely important in tango and requires a flexible spine. One of my favourite warm-up exercises is to stand backing a wall, a short distance away. With hands up, palms out and without moving the feet, twist as much as you can to place your palms on the wall. If you can twist enough, you can place your forehead on the wall. The aim is to twist enough so that your shoulders are parallel to the wall but this is difficult. If you have a practice partner, it's fun to do it while backing each other, twist in opposite directions and place palms against each others. Check who's the most flexible - it's usually the lady :-). Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Joe Grohens > > For Mario - you might try more contra body torsion for both you and her. > > -joe From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 03:22:24 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught Message-ID: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me?feel a little sorry for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'. That certainly isn't the case with me or, I think, with most of the people I know. My only criteria is that I like the lady or, if I don't know her, then I think I will like her. If I don't think she's a nice person or I dislike her for any other reason, I will never dance with her and I don't care how well she dances. But, if I like her,? I'll always dance with her. And, if she's not very good, then I hope I can help her to improve. If I see a lady struggling to dance with a man who isn't very good it probably means she's a nice lady and, in my case, would make it more likely that I would dance with her. I am just so grateful to all the women who agreed to dance with me when I was absolutely awful. And I would feel very sorry if, because of that, they missed out on dancing with men who are good dancers but?think the same way as Sean. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com ? >? So if I see a woman dancing with that sort of a man, I am > not likely to invite her to dance. The odds of her being a "good" dancer are > just too low. > > > Sean > From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 23:55:14 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist Message-ID: <204620.46496.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> David, ? Nice find! Thank goodness we now have a voice that people might listen to :-) ? Or maybe not. Who wants to be the first to tell us that Gavito got it wrong? ? Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: David > > PS: Who made this quote? > > "I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she > blinks, I lead that, too!" > > For the answer, see here:? http://www.tangopulse.net/tango_pulse_sound_bites.htm > From imhmedia at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 14:43:33 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:43:33 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DFD055.30507@yahoo.com> p.s. in tango, you have to earn the right to be on the floor and to dance with good dancers. It's just the way it is. Jack Dylan wrote: >Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not >dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree >to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me feel a little sorry >for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will >miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? > >It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the >ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'. That certainly >isn't the case with me or, I think, with most of the people I know. My only >criteria is that I like the lady or, if I don't know her, then I think I will like her. >If I don't think she's a nice person or I dislike her for any other reason, I will >never dance with her and I don't care how well she dances. But, if I like her, >I'll always dance with her. And, if she's not very good, then I hope I can help >her to improve. If I see a lady struggling to dance with a man who isn't very >good it probably means she's a nice lady and, in my case, would make it >more likely that I would dance with her. > >I am just so grateful to all the women who agreed to dance with me when >I was absolutely awful. And I would feel very sorry if, because of that, they >missed out on dancing with men who are good dancers but think the same >way as Sean. > >Jack > > > > >----- Original Message ---- > > >>From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com >> >> > > > >> So if I see a woman dancing with that sort of a man, I am >>not likely to invite her to dance. The odds of her being a "good" dancer are >>just too low. >> >> >>Sean >> >> >> > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From imhmedia at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 14:47:59 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:47:59 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> I once asked a very good, very well known dancer who had asked me to dance several times and was very complimentary, why he didn't dance with me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with...some of them are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance with you next, it makes me look bad..." he told me most good dancers-at least in Buenos Aires, think like that. I have found that to be true. because I wanted to continue dancing with him, I became much more choosey ...it was difficult at first, but well worth it, in terms of the dance. I have many friends who I like but it doesn't mean I want to dance with them. Jack Dylan wrote: Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me feel a little sorry for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? > > From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 17:58:26 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught In-Reply-To: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <950606.64918.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jack Dylan wrote: "Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers." Hi Jack, I don't mean to be tough, punative, or to prevent other guys from getting dances. I'm just looking for my best chance to "catch the ghost". In a 4 hour milonga, I might dance only 6 to 8 tandas. (More if the DJ is really great.) So I use various strategies to try and choose the women who will both enjoy dancing with me and who I will enjoy dancing with. First obviously is watching how well the women dance (and wherther she back-leads :D ). But I also watch who their partners are, how those partners dance, and how they react to her. --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jack Dylan also wrote: "It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'." I did not mean to imply that; that they are 'good dancers' is necessary but not sufficient. Any of the other things you mention could also apply if you are able to choose between several 'good dancers'. ;-) In my opinion, the phrase 'good dancers' is so subjective, and so emotionally loaded that it is useless in a forum like this. I would prefer a term like "compatible dancers". I don't usually seek out the best dancers in the room. If a woman is not thrilled to be dancing with me, I'm not going to enjoy the dance either. So I look for the women that I think I can thrill, and who will also be able to thrill me. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ From auclairdy at hotmail.com Sun Sep 28 22:30:59 2008 From: auclairdy at hotmail.com (Dyane Auclair) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:00:59 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th) Message-ID: I will be in San Francisco (my first visit) on Saturday Oct 4th or Sunday Oct 5th and would like to go to a nice milonga. Any suggestions? Dyane _________________________________________________________________ It's simple! Sell your car for just $40 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT From george at inscenes.com Sun Sep 28 22:41:32 2008 From: george at inscenes.com (george@inscenes.com) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:41:32 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th) Message-ID: To see a list of favorites, check out www.inscenes.com then click on Tango in the left column. Have fun. -----Original Message----- From: Dyane Auclair [mailto:auclairdy at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:30 PM To: 'tango list' Subject: [Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th) I will be in San Francisco (my first visit) on Saturday Oct 4th or Sunday Oct 5th and would like to go to a nice milonga. Any suggestions? Dyane _________________________________________________________________ It's simple! Sell your car for just $40 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sun Sep 28 23:12:10 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 23:12:10 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer into one message. 1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her. Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody makes the decision for themselves. 2) Refusing a lead There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the woman talks, the man has to listen. Michael Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ilene Marder" Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with...some of them are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance with you next, it makes me look bad..." Jack Dylan wrote: It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. From imhmedia at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 23:33:57 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 23:33:57 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question In-Reply-To: References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E04CA5.1000605@yahoo.com> the good news is that since this happened several years ago, my level jumped and the dancer in question and I have danced often. And by the way, he was a good friend or I would have never asked him the question...! Michael wrote: > >1) I understand what Ilene wrote. > > >Michael >Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year >I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ilene Marder" >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught > > >I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with >me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with.. > > > > > > From nina at earthnet.net Sun Sep 28 23:37:23 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:37:23 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question In-Reply-To: References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080928211720.01b84c68@earthnet.net> I have asked this question before - who do you dance with, folks? Do you dance with people or with their tango abilities? Personally, I dance with people. If I like the person, and his technique has suddenly deteriorated for some mysterious reason, such as a spell of some tango sorcerer in Siberia, I would certainly attempt to remove the spell. Tango technique is a fluid thing - it can be restored and reconstructed. In tango, as in all dance, some days are better than others. Some days, there is axis and other days it is on vacation some place. Some days, the body does what it is supposed to and other days it decides to do its own thing and no amount of arguing can change anything. Somehow we push through those moments and dance works out. But a person can be destroyed by rejection. Tango trauma is a serious thing. One of the biggest problems with assumptions in all aspects of life is attribution. We often attribute incorrectly. Michael said that the woman's tension was from dancing with men that don't have good technique. But maybe she had a stressful day instead. There is no linear cause and effect in human experience or behavior. Tango accepts people as they are, with all their feelings. In Buenos Aires, that is still the beauty of the experience - you are expected to dance your feelings, whatever they may be that day. There is freedom in that and integrity. All the best, Nina At 09:12 PM 9/28/2008, Michael wrote: >Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with >good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer >into one message. > >1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a >practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because >her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling >and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced >much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men >who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She >absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her >dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her. > >Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is >better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody >makes the decision for themselves. > >2) Refusing a lead >There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY >Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead >because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they >threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm >downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other >type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at >the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) >called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so >she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what >was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the >woman talks, the man has to listen. > > >Michael >Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year >I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ilene Marder" >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught > > >I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with >me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing >with...some of them >are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance >with you next, it makes me look bad..." > > >Jack Dylan wrote: > >It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not >good dancers but with women who agree >to dance with men who are not good dancers. > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From al at sgi.com Mon Sep 29 04:59:18 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:59:18 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist In-Reply-To: <204620.46496.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <204620.46496.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E098E6.1020404@sgi.com> Jack Dylan wrote: > David, > > Nice find! Thank goodness we now have a voice that people might listen to :-) > > Or maybe not. Who wants to be the first to tell us that Gavito got it wrong? > As a serial contrarian, I might want to point out that interpreting gospels in the correct context is fraught with danger, that literal interpretations are not always the most correct, and that taking statements out of the context in which they're uttered can be extremely misleading. If someone asks me if you have to lead the cross, I've been known to utter very similar things. Of course you lead everything. I'm a bit tired of people insinuating that if you actually listen to responses by the follower, you're "not leading". That's a straw man's argument - you do lead everything that *you* plan to happen in a dance - including, indeed, if you want to make the lady blink (or collect slowly, or make an adorno, or pause oh-so slightly and restart *just* behind the beat,...). The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, what does he *then* do? Run away screaming? And is she ever wrong if she decides not to blink, even if she's *not* dancing with Gavito? From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Mon Sep 29 05:43:20 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:43:20 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080928211720.01b84c68@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <0F161BD89B594824846E25AE4E68734C@michaelditkoff> Nina is correct about rejection so I'll clarify what I wrote. I was referring to women who I dance frequently (or used to dance frequently.) They don't improve nor have any desire to improve. They are difficult to lead because their frame continues to get in the way, milonga after milonga after milonga so it's not one time. Dancing with strangers is different. I've been pleasantly surprised sometimes. I feel everybody deserves one tanda and THEN make up your mind if you want to dance again. I'm not suggesting NEVER dance with some people. There comes a point where we decide "is it enjoyable with person X?" My former teacher, who used to DJ a popular milonga in Washington, DC on Friday nights, told me that women would complain to him about their last partner's terrible dancing ability, as if he was supposed to do something about it. He said "If you don't like dancing with him, why do you continue to dance with him?" Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina Pesochinsky" To: "Tango-L" Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question But a person can be destroyed by rejection. Tango trauma is a serious thing. Tango accepts people as they are, with all their feelings. In Buenos Aires, that is still the beauty of the experience - you are expected to dance your feelings, whatever they may be that day. There is freedom in that and integrity. All the best, Nina From nina at earthnet.net Mon Sep 29 08:43:09 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 06:43:09 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Social rejection In-Reply-To: <0F161BD89B594824846E25AE4E68734C@michaelditkoff> References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080928211720.01b84c68@earthnet.net> <0F161BD89B594824846E25AE4E68734C@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080929063014.01b9d610@earthnet.net> Hello, everyone, I received a few private replies arguing that "rejection in tango is OK, just like anything else in life". To set things straight - just because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK. Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of social rejection. She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map the brain's response to rejection. Her research has shown that social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical pain. He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has published extensively since then on this topic. If you have access to an academic online library, you should be able to access her publications fairly easily. Very elegant research. There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for tango. There are ways to handle things without provoking the feelings of social rejection in people. There are also remedies to make things better should painful social interaction occur. We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might do that. Awareness is important. Best, Nina From tangobliss at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 12:07:20 2008 From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:07:20 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Coolish Tango Movie... Message-ID: Hi, Coolish tango movie by Dan Peters in SF, starring Trio Garufa. Whom if you've never heard before I think you folks may like... Give it a listen...takes a bit to get rolling, but worth it. There's some nice dancing in there with Andrea Fuchilieri. She does a nice 'tokyo drift' in there with her moving along side one of the palettes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxlP2msyhYE Miles. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 29 13:53:49 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:53:49 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught. Message-ID: "The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, what doeshe *then* do? Run away screaming? And is she ever wrong if she decides not toblink, even if she's *not* dancing with Gavito?" What do you do with a woman that does not follow the lead? It is a personal matter: 1- You may discuss with the lady her reasons for not following the lead. If she does it because she does not know how to dance, then you may want to go to a practica with her, and try to teach her, or advise her to take lessons on "lead and follow". 2- If she does it on purpose, as a matter of preference or experimentation is up to you if you wish to dance that way or not, in this last case stop dancing with her. I encountered this problem only two times in my entire life as a tango dancer both times foreign women). I simply finish the tango, took them to their seat and never asked them to dance again. My impression is that 99% of good dancers would do the same unless...they are expecting to obtain some secondary benefits (other than dancing). :)) When you arrive to a milonga you watch for a while to see how they dance; then you invite to the floor women that at the very least have a minimum of skill, preferable of the same level as you have. This is even in tango lyrics written many years ago such as "Segui mi consejo" (Follow my advise). Si vas a los bailes, parate en la puerta, campane? las minas que sepan bailar, no saqu?s paquete que dan pisotones... ?Que sufran y aprendan a fuerza'e planchar! If you go to the dances, stand by the door, scoop the chicks that know how to dance, do not dance with packages that step on you, let them suffer, so that they will be forced to learn in order not to seat all night long. Summary: If the woman does not follow the lead is up to you to decide if she is wrong or not. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com Mon Sep 29 13:54:21 2008 From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:54:21 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Coolish Tango Movie... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: that is just spectacular! great dancing, and great use of the environment, the band on the pallet jacks, dancing on the pallet jacks, and dancing with the guitar, all brilliant. great job to all involved!The TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From dilettante666 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 14:33:44 2008 From: dilettante666 at yahoo.com (Razor Girl) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:33:44 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Omar Vega Message-ID: Omar Vega was a beautiful and talented dancer and a beautiful and passionate man. It's been a few years since I last saw him and hearing of his death greatly saddens me. I will always remember his traspie, his candombe drums and the way he drank his wine with coca cola. My best wishes to his friends everywhere. Love, Rose Portland, OR From flame at 2xtreme.net Mon Sep 29 14:56:16 2008 From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:56:16 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Gavito's lead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E0C260.29271.77C744@flame.2xtreme.net> On 29 Sep Alexis Cousein wrote: > The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, > what does he *then* do? Run away screaming? And is she ever wrong if she > decides not to blink, even if she's *not* dancing with Gavito? I agree. Gavito also said "I lead and I follow." In one of his teaching tapes with Marcela Duran, he showed a figure and said, "Now, if the woman isn't sensitive enough to do the drag here and instead steps around, we resolve it in another way." But if he was dancing with someone at Marcela's level, he could lead anything and she'd be able to follow it, however nuanced. Diane From nina at earthnet.net Mon Sep 29 20:05:00 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:05:00 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Social rejection In-Reply-To: References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080928211720.01b84c68@earthnet.net> <0F161BD89B594824846E25AE4E68734C@michaelditkoff> <7.0.1.0.1.20080929063014.01b9d610@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080929173407.01bb6a88@earthnet.net> Hi, Tine and everyone, I can't prescribe ways of making rejection less painful in tango. I can only aspire to bring some awareness. It is important that each person decides for himself/herself how to use any information on this subject. Those who truly want to avoid causing unnecessary pain, will develop their own strategies and their own unique styles of communication. We can look at what hurts people in tango as dance rejection. It could be many things - not being asked, not being asked by people who used to ask, not being asked by specific people one wants to dance with, verbally and non-verbally saying "no", avoiding to the point of a showing clear intention not to dance with a person, etc. The important thing to remember is that we do not always know what might trigger the other person. In regard to rejection in tango, I like looking at the proper boundaries of each situation. There are things that we can control and things that we cannot. It is helpful to know that difference within the unique context of each situation. If one can say a polite and warm hello instead of dancing and keep moving, it is one thing. If one is cornered into a verbal exchange and has to say "no", that is a completely different situation. The other thing to look at is values. I know several women that continue to dance with men they hate dancing with. When asked why they do so, the answer is the same from all of them - they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. To these women, the pain of hurting someone's feelings is greater than the pain of dancing with them. This is important to know. It is about what each person values. This touches on the very core of who the person is. I think that how good a person is with himself/herself also determines how graceful and less painful their rejection can be. I like to make a distinction between who the people are vs. their behavior/conduct. In tango, as in all relationships (I hate this word), it is much better to reject a person's dancing, but not the person. This requires charm. Rejection is unavoidable. What makes a difference is how it is delivered. If you remember that each grown up person is just a kid in a big body, you will know how to make your choices in a kinder way. My very best regards, Nina At 09:01 AM 9/29/2008, you wrote: >Hi Nina, >Could you elaborate to the list on the ways to make rejection less >painful in tango? >Thank you >Tine > >On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Nina Pesochinsky ><nina at earthnet.net> wrote: >Hello, everyone, > >I received a few private replies arguing that "rejection in tango is >OK, just like anything else in life". To set things straight - just >because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK. > >Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of >social rejection. She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map >the brain's response to rejection. Her research has shown that >social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical >pain. He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has >published extensively since then on this topic. If you have access >to an academic online library, you should be able to access her >publications fairly easily. Very elegant research. > >There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for >tango. There are ways to handle things without provoking the >feelings of social rejection in people. There are also remedies to >make things better should painful social interaction occur. > >We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid >inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might >do that. Awareness is important. > >Best, > >Nina > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From meganpingree at comcast.net Mon Sep 29 21:37:22 2008 From: meganpingree at comcast.net (Megan Pingree) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:37:22 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Social rejection In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080929173407.01bb6a88@earthnet.net> References: <833812.89149.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48DFD15F.5010605@yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080928211720.01b84c68@earthnet.net> <0F161BD89B594824846E25AE4E68734C@michaelditkoff> <7.0.1.0.1.20080929063014.01b9d610@earthnet.net> <7.0.1.0.1.20080929173407.01bb6a88@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <6913461D-2A21-4D90-B418-FE5224984FEC@comcast.net> On Sep 29, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > ... it is much better to reject a person's dancing, but not the > person. This requires charm. > > Rejection is unavoidable. What makes a difference is how it is > delivered. If you remember that each grown up person is just a kid > in a big body, you will know how to make your choices in a kinder way. Case in point: I will never forget watching Cecilia Gonzales turn down a verbal invitation to dance. She looked the guy square in the eyes, had a huge gracious smile on her face, a friendly twinkle in her eye, and said "no thank you" . I had the feeling that he walked away thinking, "Cecilia gave me such a warm smile!" :-) Megan Pingree From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 01:29:33 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Gavito's Lead & Plan B Message-ID: <905687.87845.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> This is very frustrating because many people are still talking at cross purposes. As many have already said, misunderstanding a lead and doing something unintended?is a totally different thing to deliberately refusing a lead for no other reason than the lady wanting to do something other than what has been clearly?led. But Gavito's comment brings up something very useful for all leaders - something I've heard referred to as 'Plan B'. Most leaders will know that leads don't always get followed as expected. But those with experience will learn where this is likely to happen and will have contingency plans, just as Gavito was describing. In my case, I sometimes like to use a Sacada to lead the lady to cross left in front of right or right in front of left. Depending on how it's led, there are?a number of?possible options for the lady. For example, she might be led to transfer weight at the cross and to continue with the other foot?or to cross low?but rebound with the same foot or she might do a high Front Boleo. Although I will intend to lead one specific option, I know there is always a chance that the lady will take one of the other options. This might be my fault or the lady's but it doesn't really matter beacuse it won't be a problem as I'll simply continue with 'Plan B' and the lady will think she followed my lead perfectly. The man should always be prepared for the unexpected but, as I say, that's a completely different thing to having one's lead deliberately rejected. Jack ----- Original Message ---- > From: "flame at 2xtreme.net" > > I agree. Gavito also said "I lead and I follow." > > In one of his teaching tapes with Marcela Duran, he showed a figure and > said, "Now, if the woman isn't sensitive enough to do the drag here and > instead steps around, we resolve it in another way." > From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 04:45:55 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Social rejection In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080929173407.01bb6a88@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <51931.7260.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > The important thing to remember is that we do not always know > what might trigger the other person. You're right, Nina, and although I appreciate your sensitivity toward others, I do not espouse taking responsibility for another's emotional response. In fact, what we might think of as possibly triggering pain for someone else, might do the exact opposite. There've been quite a few times, when I've had to be very direct with people, knew I had caused them pain, but also was thanked by them later for doing what I did. For some of my students, there's a process I think of as "cutting the apron strings" or "pushing them out of the nest". I'm sure others have to do this, too. It's a phase for beginners who begin to demonstrate overdependence on their teachers or have difficulty separating professional responsibilities from personal friendships. Basically, it's having to turn them down if they ask me to dance at a milonga or to help them work on something at a practice (and there are others that they can work with instead). I know why they're asking - because it's easier for them to work/dance with me that with other people. But I also know that that is not always good for their tango development for me to always say "yes". And certainly not good for me to feel smothered. What I've learned to do to make rejection easier is to simply avoid prolonged eye contact. So I'll look at someone initially and even engage in conversation, but my eyes will be directed mainly at the dance floor. Basically, I'll look as if I am pre-occupied studying others (which is usually true, anyway). So when a rejection comes, it doesn't come off as being against them but more about my having other things on my mind. The other side to this is to also let people know that they are going to make mistakes, that Rome wasn't built in a day, and that there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced. And if they don't build up their expectations unrealistically, then rejection isn't as painful as it would otherwise be. Trini de Pittsburgh From al at sgi.com Tue Sep 30 05:09:30 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:09:30 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E1ECCA.6050404@sgi.com> Sergio Vandekier wrote: > > >"The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, [...] > > What do you do with a woman that does not follow the lead? > Ah, but you're missing the entire point (that "following the lead" is not a binary proposition) - and also miss the obvious irony in what Gavito is saying (unless you really think that you should only dance with followers that can literally be led to blink, in which case you mustn't dance very often). But then, I suspect that when you're dancing with a women, you leave your large tango list blinders at the table. > My impression is that 99% of good dancers would do the same unless... You certainly seem to form impressions with very little evidence (i.e. by assuming everyone must think exactly like you, because you are the navel of the world). But then, I don't think that's *really* true, because I suspect it's just some trolling. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From nina at earthnet.net Tue Sep 30 11:39:38 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:39:38 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Social rejection In-Reply-To: <51931.7260.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <51931.7260.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080930093938.ncpayk62oww0w040@webmail.earthnet.net> Trini, I think that the most efficient way to help people/students deal with dance, rejection, fear of failure/performance, etc. is to hand them a book "The Four Agreements" the moment they enter a beginner tango class for the first time. Give them four days to read it and then give them a short quiz. If they pass, let them into the class. One of the agreements is "Take nothing personally". Haven't tried that yet, but it might work. :) Nina Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" : > > --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > >> The important thing to remember is that we do not always know >> what might trigger the other person. > > You're right, Nina, and although I appreciate your sensitivity > toward others, I do not espouse taking responsibility for another's > emotional response. In fact, what we might think of as possibly > triggering pain for someone else, might do the exact opposite. > There've been quite a few times, when I've had to be very direct > with people, knew I had caused them pain, but also was thanked by > them later for doing what I did. > > For some of my students, there's a process I think of as "cutting > the apron strings" or "pushing them out of the nest". I'm sure > others have to do this, too. It's a phase for beginners who begin > to demonstrate overdependence on their teachers or have difficulty > separating professional responsibilities from personal friendships. > Basically, it's having to turn them down if they ask me to dance at > a milonga or to help them work on something at a practice (and > there are others that they can work with instead). I know why > they're asking - because it's easier for them to work/dance with me > that with other people. But I also know that that is not always > good for their tango development for me to always say "yes". And > certainly not good for me to feel smothered. > > What I've learned to do to make rejection easier is to simply avoid > prolonged eye contact. So I'll look at someone initially and even > engage in conversation, but my eyes will be directed mainly at the > dance floor. Basically, I'll look as if I am pre-occupied studying > others (which is usually true, anyway). So when a rejection comes, > it doesn't come off as being against them but more about my having > other things on my mind. > > The other side to this is to also let people know that they are > going to make mistakes, that Rome wasn't built in a day, and that > there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced. And if they don't > build up their expectations unrealistically, then rejection isn't as > painful as it would otherwise be. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 30 12:49:50 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:49:50 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] The lead an invitation that may be ignored or faught. last note. Message-ID: As we say: "There is no worse blind that the one that refuses to see, or worse deaf than the one that refuses to hear". I have been very clear in my opinion with respect to leading and following, I do no see any point in re-iterating concepts or in getting personal with only one person that distorts and twists everything that is said. I entirely agree with Jack Dylan's idea of "plan B". I normally call this "Plan B" "compensating", this is correct; if a lady makes a misinterpretation of a lead then the man compensates (this is what Gavito means by "I follow") and she does not even notice that she did not follow the intended lead. When this situation arises it is always because I hesitated or changed my mind half way in the middle of a lead. This is perceived by the woman as her mistake and she will invariably apologize. As to being the "navel of the world" "En el pais de los ciegos el tuerto es rey" ...in the world of the blind the one eyed man is the king. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Tue Sep 30 15:03:33 2008 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:03:33 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] tango rejection Message-ID: Megan wrote, "I had the feeling that he walked away thinking, "Cecilia gave me such a warm smile!"" Trust me, that is not what he was thinking. He was feeling rejected. And it was not such a warm rejection. A warm rejection is when the woman says, thank you for asking, I am resting, ask me another time, or , I have already promised the next few tandas to someone else. If this happens on two separate occasions, the man should get the idea there will never be another time and stop asking that woman. Unless he is totally clueless, in which case a blunt sledgehammer is called for. My main lament is that in NYC where i dance, almost no one uses or comprehends the cabaceo, anyway most milongas are so dark you could not see a cabaceo from more than 3 feet away anyway. This lighting is getting worse by the month. maybe its to conserve energy in a bad economy. but if its so dark it is hard to judge a womans dance skill before inviting. I try to avoid dancing with a woman who does not meet my eyes or smile when I pass by. What is the point? I do not want to dance with someone who accepted my invite because she did not want to hurt my feelings. That is called a mercy tanda. And it is as emotionally bereft as mercy sex. But there are many men who verbally invite and think nothing of intimidating the woman into accepting. Usually these are not the better dancers. I guess I am a luddite, i use the cabaceo whenever possible, hoping to spread this wonderful custom. Occasionally I will resort to verbal invite, and usually regret it. When a woman rejects my invite with a one word no or shake of her head, but within 5 seconds leaps up to dance with the latest argentine long-haired poor- postured neo- tango import on sale, I will ask her again as soon as the following two conditions occur: pigs fly, and hell freezes over. One of those is insufficient; if both of those conditions occur, I will gladly ask her again. Use the cabaceo. It works. ( If you can see it.) From nina at earthnet.net Tue Sep 30 19:34:46 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:34:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] tango rejection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080930172622.01ba75d0@earthnet.net> Cabeceo works even from 3 feet away. Even in the dark. The fewer words the better. What happened with people's manners?! Why is it that we all knew over a decade ago that if you turn someone down for a tanda in an obvious way, you do not dance that tanda?! I think that the manners went to hell because Daniel Trenner stopped travelling and teaching all over the United States. He taught the most proper codes of conduct, so that when foreigners came to dance in Buenos Aires, they would know how to behave appropriately. Nina At 01:03 PM 9/30/2008, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: >I guess I am a luddite, i use the cabaceo whenever possible, hoping to >spread this wonderful custom. Occasionally I will resort to verbal >invite, and usually regret it. When a woman rejects my invite with a >one word no or shake of her head, but within 5 seconds leaps up to dance >with the latest argentine long-haired poor- postured neo- tango import >on sale, I will ask her again as soon as the following two conditions >occur: pigs fly, and hell freezes over. One of those is >insufficient; if both of those conditions occur, I will gladly ask her >again. > >Use the cabaceo. It works. ( If you can see it.) > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 20:04:26 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Perception of skill level Message-ID: <26032.79039.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From a tango dancer's Blog ( but referring to a certain VP candidate): "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments." The two Cornell psychologists began with the following assumptions: Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy. http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf Is there an application to tango dancers/teachers/wannabes? Curiously, Nancy