From politas at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:53:06 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:53:06 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Perception of skill level
In-Reply-To: <26032.79039.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <26032.79039.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48E43792.5000500@gmail.com>

NANCY wrote:
>>From a tango dancer's Blog ( but referring to a certain VP candidate):
> 
> "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments." 
> 
> The two Cornell psychologists began with the following assumptions:
> Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.
> Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.
> Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.

These are actually the _conclusions_ of the studies referenced, not 
_assumptions_.

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  2 15:56:12 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] musings
Message-ID: <852173.72587.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Three new videos;
  An interesting interpretation of the music...a clean performance of traditional A.tango
  Tomas Howlin and Shorey Myers in Salt Lake City
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=LT9sGbc_CnI
   
  This guy is one of my favorites and so I post it... he does slow tango really slow
  Tango Milonguero - Alberto Dassieu y Paulina Spinoso
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=mKFM1HGVGnQ
   
  This is a clean example of the Vals danced socially. You can do this on a packed floor.
  Tango Vals demo by Barbara and Angel at Augusta festival
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnp2ImpJnA4

       

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  3 04:16:59 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace?
Message-ID: <805503.87562.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I'm always looking for ways to improve my Front Ochos in close embrace and 
finally found some time to read Eero Olli's lengthy post. While I appreciate his 
effort, I quickly got lost. If anyone else understand's what he is trying to say, 
could they please enlighten me. I got lost here ...?"the dancers weights are 
moving in the same direction in a?circle (and thus in opposite directions in 
relation to a line)." From there it was all downhill with reference to the man 
leading with his back, rather than his chest and the follower responding to 
a man's weight shift with a turn of her hip. And those 3 concepts came in 
a single sentence. Can anyone please explain?

Jack

?
----- Original Message ----
> From: Eero Olli <privat at eero.no>
> 
> The way I use this concepts, in linear system of movement the center of both 
> dancer (their 
> weight) is moving in same direction, the lead is more in leader's chest,? and a 
> follower's 
> response to a leaders weight shift is a weight shift (a step).? In circular 
> system of movement 
> (used in most giros), the dancers weights are moving in the same direction in a 
> circle (and 
> thus in opposite directions in relation to a line), focus moves away from the 
> leaders chest to 
> leaders back, and a follower's response to a leaders weight shift is turning 
> their hip (a pivot). 
> 



      



From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  3 07:49:09 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 04:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  musings
Message-ID: <6903.50460.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've already posted several times Alberto dancing the Vals.
  Angel's Vals is informative to someone learning the dance.
  The moves are clean and repetetive and not difficult to figure out and imitate.
  I thought that it would be 'helpfull' to those like myself who are deconstructing the Vals.
  Alberto's slow dance also lends itself to analyses because of it's deliberateness, musicality
  and lack of showy over complication. He may be prime rib but he's no ham.

A Tango L, put-down, sharp shooter wrote :
  You really need to rethink your grouping of Alberto in the same posting as Angel. It like prime rib next to a hotdog. What's your story again? You are new to the dance? I forget how you represent yourself on this stupid forum. The innocent investigator/observer? 



       

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 19:05:17 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:05:17 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
Message-ID: <BAY105-W2027278E0C86E081D64B23973C0@phx.gbl>



After I posted my "last note" I received even a larger number of private E-mails than before.

It seems that many men do not know how to lead, even when they have been dancing "tango" for a number of years.   

They tell me that during the lesson everything seems to work fine because the woman does her part on her own but when they try to reproduce the step at the practica or the milonga, it does not work.  The woman does not get any clear lead, she then does her best (something different) and the man follows.

This is covered under the disguise of "I listen to the woman" or "I follow the woman".

Many ask the woman "how is the lead", the woman answers that she does not know what the man does, or gives all sort of criticisms and advises that do not help.

IMO:

It is important to learn how to lead.  The man should ask the instructor to teach him how to lead, then the teacher should ask the student to lead him, so that he can be certain the pupil knows how to lead.

As an alternative the man should exchange roles with another man, to practice.

The woman should be instructed to do nothing unless she gets a clear lead from the man.

The man should lead every single move the woman executes.

Some latitude could be given by allowing extra time or not, to do embellishments.  The woman has her best time in this respect with men that dance slowly, as this gives her the chance to express herself with more time but...she should never interfere with the man's dancing or his ideas nor should she take an inordinate amount of time.


Best regards, Sergio

_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/

From sl at stevelittler.com  Sat Oct  4 11:55:26 2008
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 11:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W2027278E0C86E081D64B23973C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W2027278E0C86E081D64B23973C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48E791EE.5010306@stevelittler.com>

Yes. And something that recently helped me greatly was to take a private 
lesson with a female instructor who also knows how to lead very well and 
we worked on my leading. She fixes any weak lead instantly and can 
switch me to the womans role so I can feel why it is weak. (That is 
something I didn't really understand well from group lessons or watching 
videos.)

At my last milonga I had many compliments on my "clear" lead and it was 
my most enjoyable milonga yet after one year of dancing.

Steve

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
>
> IMO:
>
> It is important to learn how to lead.  The man should ask the instructor to teach him how to lead, then the teacher should ask the student to lead him, so that he can be certain the pupil knows how to lead.
>
>
>   

From jpsighe at sighes.com  Sat Oct  4 15:25:54 2008
From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:25:54 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] MILONGA... THE ORPHAN DANCE
Message-ID: <A681BCF037804021B06C112718799639@Desktop1>


... "The umbilical cord cannot be severed without generating distortion and 
misunderstanding. The nurturing influence of Candombe must be revisited, 
re-actualized, to keep Tango evolving and generating into something 
unimaginable at the moment. Perhaps, we would then see the so-called Nuevo 
Tango (in its musical designation) FINALLY enriched, so it can emerge out of 
the rhythmic cul-de-sac in which it momentarily finds itself. I refer to the 
very monotonous rhythm that almost ALL of the Nuevo Tango pieces repeat; 
that is the obvious display of the bankrupt conception, coming from a place 
of a poor rhythmic ability."...


Read the rest of the article here: 
http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol13_oct08.html


Tangamente,

Jean-Pierre Sigh?

--------------------------------
TANGO MAGDALENA
580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305
Oakland, CA 94610
Ph: 510- 836 0812
Web site : http://www.tangomagdalena.com 


From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Oct  4 23:50:20 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 03:50:20 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
Message-ID: <20081004.205020.22232.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

I first had the principles of leading and following made clear to me 
more than 40 years ago, by the translation of a book by a French 
dancing master writing in the mid-1800s. Those principles are simple.  
The details are not, and they vary from dance to dance.

(1) The embrace must be good.

(2) The man must know what he wants the woman to do. She must not - 
until he asks her to do it with the silent language of the body.

(3) Music is your master, your partner your mistress.

(4) You (two) are one of many.

Whole books could be (and have been) written about this subject. In 
this forum we can only mention a few of the most important aspects as 
they relate to tango.

(4) We must remember when we dance that we are part of la pista, the 
flow, a much more poetic and accurate term than the awkward English 
phrase "line of dance." We must protect our partner from other couples 
- and this is true of the woman as well as the man. He is most 
responsible for this, but no man is perfect and the best of us can be 
surprised.

We must also protect other couples from us! Leave the show-tango moves 
for when the floor becomes more open, or adapt them to the crowd.  A 
lift, for instance, is best done in a close embrace, her feet only an 
inch or two off the floor, and the woman's feet extending no more than 
an inch or two from her body and her heels pointing straight down.

(3) Few things are more despised than a man who cannot interpret the 
music for his partner, few men more admired than one who can creatively 
interpret the music.  Slow does not necessarily mean sad, nor fast 
happy.

A woman is not a meat puppet, but a real person.  She gifts a man with 
the role of guide and protector. He abuses this gift at his peril.  
Women talk and even the kindest woman will only not let him abuse her 
trust forever.  A woman is not a slave who must automatically do what a 
man wants.  He must seduce her.

He must listen to her body language.  Is she skilled at following? At 
tango?  Able to do some actions well and others not?  Does she have 
favorite adornos?  Is she sad?  Tired?  Suffering from some hurt?  
Happy? Willing to adventure?  Feeling naughty?  If sad, he can let her 
know with his embrace and choice of moves that he wants to comfort her 
- or if he has the gift of comedy he might tease her out of her sadness 
for a time.

[part two of this message follows]


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



____________________________________________________________
Click here to find affordable degree programs. 
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieXwljHXvLeqlKTplViY8QDx1pw7VzzhOTE4cqVSvU41jYqO/


From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Oct  4 23:55:55 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 03:55:55 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
Message-ID: <20081004.205555.22232.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

[part 2 of "Lead and follow"]


(2) A man must know very clearly what he wants his partner to do.  The 
certainty alone gives a woman the confidence to surrender her will to 
his.  But his knowledge will also communicate details of his desire to 
her in a dozen subtle ways, many of which he is not conscious.

He does not need to know all the details of HOW she executes his 
request.  That is her job.  He only needs to know WHAT he wants.  It 
does help, however, to have practiced the woman's part and know some of 
what she does.  This helps him better to judge if he should make a 
request, or if he should give her more time for some movements.

When learning advanced and complicated movements often men will focus 
most on their own part.  But if he focuses on her's instead his part 
will become clearer, because it is determined by what he wants her to 
do.  Also sometimes he may discover more than one way to do his part of 
the movement.

A woman enters into an unspoken contract when she accepts an embrace 
not to undermine a man's confidence, which for most of us is more 
fragile than we like to admit.  Only in an emergency should she refuse 
a request, and the time to discuss technique is in a class, not at a 
milonga, or at least not on the dance floor.

A leader should be willing, even eager, to risk (harmless) mistakes.  
It's part of being a leader, to adventure.  But it's also part of 
leading to admit to it when one fails - including asking partners to do 
something they cannot do, either because it is beyond their skill level 
or because (perhaps) they are too tired to respond properly.

There are two aspects of making mistakes I don't recall ever 
hearing/reading about.  They  build the leader's skill at recovering 
from errors - which happen no matter how careful and skilled a couple 
are.  Also, in recovering, sometimes we discover/invent a new "step."

(1) Puppy Costello supposedly said "Figures are easy; walking is hard." 
It's equally true that the seemingly simple embrace is hard, and hides 
many subtleties.

The embrace is a pleasure in its own right, and for many part of the 
reward for dancing. It is also the "voice" we use to communicate our 
desires, and for more than just the immediate desires to move in ways 
that execute figures and communicate how well we can or can't do them. 
Learning how to embrace well, and practicing to make the embrace 
better, is crucial to dancing, especially in tango where potentially 
each individual step may be lead.

We who do tango are lucky that pauses are part of the dance's 
vocabulary. I like to start each dance with a zarandeo, a gentle left-
right twisting of our bodies. This means we can begin dancing even 
though we move our feet not at all. We can also begin dancing by doing 
cadencias, named after the way soldiers keep the cadence when stopped 
by stepping in place. The zarandeo and cadencia allow us to define then 
refine our embrace before trying to walk and stay synchronized.

Once moving it is a good idea to dance very simply so we can focus on 
getting acquainted with our partner. The better we know our partner the 
sooner we can graduate to more elaborate moves. Even with long-time and 
favorite partners, however, we should not skimp on getting acquainted. 
Each of us is more than one person.  The depressed or enthusiastic 
person at the beginning of the evening may change so that at it's end 
we are exhilarated or weary and a very different person to dance with.

And thus we scratch the surface of leading and following.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


____________________________________________________________
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From politas at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 01:27:59 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:27:59 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in the Spring - festival report
Message-ID: <48EAF35F.2080802@gmail.com>

Here in Canberra we just had a fantastic tango event, and I'm wondering 
if anyone is doing similar events around the world.

The basic idea for the festival was that it was all about social 
dancing. There were no workshops, no performances, just four days of 
social dancing.

The event kicked off Friday evening with the showing of a short film, 
"Si Sos Brujo: Una Historia Tango", which, as a musician, I found very 
interesting. Then there was a welcoming milonga from 8pm until midnight.

Saturday we had an Asado (Argentine BBQ) at lunch time, immediately 
followed by our club's regular Saturday afternoon practica. Then from 
9pm until 2am was "Tango til two", the Saturday milonga.

Sunday afternoon in Old Parliament House there was a short lecture by Dr 
Daniel Martin: "Tragedy, hopelessness, unrequited love", which looked at 
the demographic roots of tango and how they affected its development. 
This was followed by a short milonguita on a very small and quite 
crowded dance floor.

Sunday evening, again from 9pm to 2am, was "Tango til two - the sequel".

Monday was a public holiday in most of Australia, so the festival 
wrapped up with an afternoon milonga from 2-6pm.

There was a lot of great DJing, with well-grouped tandas and nice 
transitions. The atmosphere throughout the festival was absolutely 
fantastic, everyone was kept in a good mood, and the numbers barely 
dwindled until the closing of each milonga. At each of the three evening 
milongas, seating was arranged, with everyone being escorted to their 
table, and the tables were mixed up, attempting to get everyone sitting 
with people from different cities.

But the best thing for me was that there was no cliques; everyone danced 
with everyone, or so it seemed.

So, is anyone else doing events like this, social mixer festivals with 
no workshops, no performances, and no "Big Name" identified people? If 
not, I can heartily recommend that people try it out as an event format. 
It's really great to be able to dance with people from all over when 
they aren't exhausted after nine hours of classes.

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  7 12:40:59 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango in the Spring - festival report
Message-ID: <731787.30209.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is an interesting idea...no classes, hmmmm.
  I once spoke with a woman who had attended a festival in Wash. D.C. (she from Phila.) and was very disappointed because no one asked her to dance. She is an excellent dancer
  and felt that because she had not attended any classes, no one had met nor felt familiar with her and so no one asked her to dance. Is that the case? Did the classes produce their own cliques? And what about the rank newbie, the person who never danced before? Are
  they uninvited by default?  I've never been to a 'festival' and so, my questions could seem
  ignorant but thems my questions. Any thoughts on the are welcome. I just thought that
  after hearing this woman's experience, that all women should take classes if they go far
  to a festival out of town.
   

       

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  7 16:45:25 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in the Spring - festival report
In-Reply-To: <731787.30209.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <62251.35513.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


To Myk Dowling's question, the Ann Arbor tango group initially started May Madness as just social dancing and a BBQ, but workshops were eventually added on.  This is an event that people will drive from at least 4 hours out, so perhaps they figured that adding workshops will make it more worthwhile for those coming in from far away.  To be honest, if it was just social dancing, I'd be less likely to attend.  


For Mario:

>   I once spoke with a woman who had attended a festival in
> Wash. D.C. (she from Phila.) and was very disappointed
> because no one asked her to dance. 

So why wasn't she asking men to dance?  My observations are that "cliques" form from personal friendships, not classes.  

And what about the rank newbie,
> the person who never danced before? Are they uninvited by default?  I've never been to a 'festival' and so, my questions could seem
>   ignorant but thems my questions. 

I don't feel that most festivals are a good place for a complete newbie who doesn't know anyone else there.  In a lot of festivals, you'll find friends trying to dance first with other friends that they only see at festivals (hence, the cliques) or their regular partners.  A man can still ask a woman to dance, but women can have a more difficult time getting asked to dance.  But if a woman dresses well and looks like she could be a fun person on the dance floor, then she can still get asked.  If she's sitting there sulking, no one is going to want to ask her to dance.  If the newbie participants in the classes, he/she can find people who may be more willing dance partners.

Women can have a more difficult time getting dances unless they're "young and blond", so to speak.  But there are lots of things she can do to still get dances - like asking the men to dance.    

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  8 13:24:56 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Musings 2
Message-ID: <600509.53755.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Claudio Strang & Trinidad Solar.. Milonga
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=ftJ5WmKWb3g
  This is a very 'together' dance..I especially like the embrace
  of both members of the couple. It looks intimate and Argentine.
   
  El Nene Eduardo Masci and Roxanna...Mi Tango Triste
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=dP4lLKqwO8E
  More by the master...I'm looking for the website that he
  has under construction..will whoever posted the link, please
  post it again...I want to dream of the possibility of going to BsAs
  to study with this guy.
   
   

       

From brick at fastpack.com  Wed Oct  8 18:37:17 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:37:17 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in the Spring - festival report
Message-ID: <ca2c2380810081537o2be1d3abl16d8f40949233af@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
>>  But if a woman dresses well and looks like she could be a fun person on the dance floor, then she can still get asked.  If she's sitting there sulking, no one is going to want to ask her to dance.  If the newbie participants in the classes, he/she can find people who may be more willing dance partners.<<

A couple of thoughts on this..

More so that other dances I've done, I think Tango is about building a
few good relationships rather than many superficial ones. I think that
the closeness of the embrace, and the relatively small number of dance
partners in an evening due to the tanda fosters this. I think it helps
newbies to "build relationships" off the dance floor to get dances.

This is a "social dance" and I often think that too much emphasis is
placed on the "dance" part and not enough on the "social" part. I
sometimes doubt the value of group classes for improving dance skills,
especially for follows, but classes are great places to build social
relationships. Classes help may get dances, but so does simply
appearing friendly and approachable.

Which leads to my second point: sulking REALLY hurts. I was at a
festival earlier this year, and there were more women than men,
especially at one afternoon "alternative" milonga. There was the
customary wall of tables around the dance floor and I remember looking
out at this crowd of unhappy, no,  ANGRY women sitting on the other
side of the wall. I was uncomfortable just looking at them.

I was not about to venture out into that sea of hostility and ask a
random woman to dance, and incur the wrath of the women around her for
not asking them. Even the cabeceo was uncomfortable: selecting one
face in a field of stares all demanding "Pick Me!, Pick Me!"

So I mostly danced with my friends, where normally at a festival I try
to dance with people I don't know, or at least don't see often. I did
dance with a few ladies with "happy" faces that had positioned
themselves near the breaks in the wall so I didn't have to run the
gauntlet to get to them.

I once took a class in "milonga etiquette, tips and tricks to get
better dances" taught by Alex Krebs in Portland. Minute per minute and
dollar per dollar, it was one of the best workshops I've ever taken.
There are some "special" social things about Tango that I think are
just not obvious to people raised outside of BsAs.

All IMHO, YMMV.

From politas at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 18:20:13 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:20:13 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in the Spring - festival report
In-Reply-To: <62251.35513.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <62251.35513.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48ED321D.2030807@gmail.com>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> To Myk Dowling's question, the Ann Arbor tango group initially started
> May Madness as just social dancing and a BBQ, but workshops were
> eventually added on.

Interesting.

>  This is an event that people will drive from at
> least 4 hours out, so perhaps they figured that adding workshops will
> make it more worthwhile for those coming in from far away.  

We had people flying in from all over Australia and New Zealand for
this event. Of course, Australia's geography is fairly unique and
Australians are generally more willing to travel long distances for an
event. We'll drive to somewhere four hours away for a day trip!

> To be honest, if it was just social dancing, I'd be less likely to attend.  

Can I ask why?
> 
> For Mario:
> 
>>   I once spoke with a woman who had attended a festival in
>> Wash. D.C. (she from Phila.) and was very disappointed
>> because no one asked her to dance. 
> 
> So why wasn't she asking men to dance?  My observations are that
> "cliques" form from personal friendships, not classes.  

That's what I gather happens at other festivals, yes. I'm still fairly
new to tango, and haven't been to many festivals myself, but the way I
hear it, after many hours of workshops, people are tired and don't want
the extra stress of dancing with unknown quantities.

> And what about the rank newbie,
>> the person who never danced before? Are they uninvited by default?  
>> I've never been to a 'festival' and so, my questions could seem
>> ignorant but thems my questions. 
> 
> I don't feel that most festivals are a good place for a complete
> newbie who doesn't know anyone else there.

It seems frankly strange to me to start a new activity by attending a
major festival. Why would a complete newbie think they can gain anything
from such a festival? Or from the alternative perspective, if a festival
is catering to complete newbies, then how can it provide sufficient
challenge and value for those with more experience?

> Women can have a more difficult time getting dances unless they're
> "young and blond", so to speak.  But there are lots of things she 
> can do to still get dances - like asking the men to dance.    

I was asked to dance by women a few times over the festival, and was
happy to do so. Of course, I'm no Sean. I judge a person's dancing by
dancing with them, not watching how they dance with other people. And
I'm still enough of a newbie myself to want to dance every tanda I can
while my feet hold me up.

-- 
Myk from Canberra

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  9 00:46:55 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
Message-ID: <341224.89430.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> 
> The woman should be instructed to do nothing unless she gets a clear lead from 
> the man.
> 

This is extremely important, especially in classes. All the time I see ladies in class 
doing the steps themselves and then later, these same ladies complain that their 
partner can't lead them. But the lady is not giving the man the opportunity to learn 
in class where leading problems can be identified in the presence of the teacher and, 
hopefully, get resolved.

I have a wonderful woman teacher in Buenos Aires [Gladys Colombo]?who just won't 
move a muscle unless I lead her. This can sometimes be frustrating when I'm also 
trying to learn my steps but she always says that the man leading the woman is more 
important than the man doing his steps. The more?I learn about tango, the more it 
always comes back to the woman :-).

And, let's not forget that the man must know the woman's steps - otherwise, how 
can he possilbly lead her? So the man has a triple duty - he must know his own 
steps, the ladies steps and how to lead those steps. It's tough being the man :-).

Jack


      



From donnay at donnay.net  Thu Oct  9 11:57:27 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:57:27 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <341224.89430.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <341224.89430.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C069C59DBDAD4796BE4DA55BAE94700D@gatewaylaptop>

I am such a big advocate of leaders learning to follow!! But how do you get men to 
understand this?  I have a class on following attended by some leaders who are really 
committed to their dancing, and they are beginning to follow very well and it is showing up 
in their leading. But it is not attended by the people who need it - especially people who 
are teachers, or people who are teaching their followers (requested or not). How do you get 
leaders to work on following?

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Dylan" <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>

And, let's not forget that the man must know the woman's steps - otherwise, how
can he possilbly lead her? So the man has a triple duty - he must know his own
steps, the ladies steps and how to lead those steps. It's tough being the man :-).

Jack



From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 12:08:23 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:08:23 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Second Life
Message-ID: <68850D26-E8C9-4D82-AD12-F3D1EA4417AB@gmail.com>

I discovered yesterday that Second Life, the virtual role-playing  
environment, has a location for tango: Arrabal Tango Club.

I am not very familiar with Second Life, myself. I have an avatar, but  
I have yet to spend much time exploring this game.

The Arrabal Tango Club is nicely designed. When I teleported there, my  
avatar was clothed in black. I walked into the bar. I passed another  
female player on my way in. At this point I'm trying to figure out how  
to get my avatar to sit on a bar stool. I have no idea what will  
happen when I try to dance tango.

You can see snapshots from Arrabal Tango Club here: http://www.flickr.com/groups/tangoatarrabal/

You can enter the Second Life location of Arrabal Tango Club here: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Condensation%20Land/32/225/23 
  ....

Is anyone on the list involved with this SL location? I would like to  
know more about how it got started, and who plays it. Are the players  
tango dancers in real life?

-joe

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Oct  9 14:45:34 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:45:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
References: <341224.89430.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<C069C59DBDAD4796BE4DA55BAE94700D@gatewaylaptop>
Message-ID: <537E5AFC01C34C7CA8FE6176966A7215@michaelditkoff>

Lois:
How do you market the class? Remind people that there wasn't any Arturo Murray dance studio in Buenos Aires to teach tango. Men taught men. When men started to learn, they started as followers and the more experienced men would practice new figures with the new men. 

Tell women not to move unless they feel a lead. If the man complains she didn't do as directed, her response is "I followed what you lead, which might not be what you intended." She should then ask for his name, write it down, and never dance with him again. Sooner or later, the message might get through to the men who need your class. If women continue to dance with men who don't improve, the men have no motivation to improve. Women can tell over a period of time who is improving.

Michael Ditkoff
Going to make my 1st pilgrimage to tango Mecca next year
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay at donnay.net>
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead and follow


I am such a big advocate of leaders learning to follow!! But how do you get men to 
understand this?  But it is not attended by the people who need it - especially people who 
are teachers, or people who are teaching their followers (requested or not). How do you get 
leaders to work on following?

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis




From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  9 15:48:58 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in the Spring - festival report
In-Reply-To: <48ED321D.2030807@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <703736.87627.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 10/8/08, Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com> wrote:
 
> > To be honest, if it was just social dancing, I'd
> be less likely to attend.  
> 
> Can I ask why?

The price of gas has made traveling a lot less attractive, so we don't even go to DC anymore just to dance socially, either.  But if there's are workshops with someone I like, then I feel that my gas money is doing double duty.  And I know that a festivals with workshops are more likely to attract the type of dancers I prefer.

> I'm still fairly new to tango, and haven't been to many festivals
> myself, but the way I hear it, after many hours of workshops, people are tired and don't want the extra stress of dancing with unknown quantities.

I find that people at festivals try first to dance with their friends, partners, or anyone new they think could be interesting.  By the end of the festival, though, people are more relaxed and are often more willing to dance with someone they haven't danced with yet.

Happy festival-going,
Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 15:31:41 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:31:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dallas Milongas?
In-Reply-To: <703736.87627.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <138193.53833.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I can find a list of the Dallas milongas.? But, can anyone tell me which ones are heavily attended by the better dancers?

Thanks





      

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 15:49:12 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <C069C59DBDAD4796BE4DA55BAE94700D@gatewaylaptop>
Message-ID: <484730.20213.qm@web52202.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Lois,

Perhaps the answer lies in illustrating the followers technique in terms of the lead.? For example, you know that you can show followers technique for beginning a step to the front, side or back.? 

If I want to step, with my left foot, to my follower's left, I think in terms of followers technique.

There is more room if I keep my weight on my right foot, pivot with my feet together and begin my step forward with my foot while my knees stay together.

Contrast this with the back step where you really think of the leg straightening.

My point is that a leader who practices followers technique can move so delicately in close to his/her followers space, keeping her feeling balanced and musical.? I am rambling on.? I just like to show, specifically, what your legs look like when you use great followers technique to take a front step, in crossed position.? Use that movement as a teaser to get them into your class.

At home, I am known to turn on Jackson Browne, for example, and practice small, delicate steps ... tucking one foot behind the other, fake steps, the step that I just described, etc.? It teaches me to isolate my lower body from my upper body ... and it keeps followers technique in my "practice" routine.? 

Hope that helps ... because, while I have never wanted to follow a man for any period of time, I do spend a lot of time practicing followers technique ... and I know that women wish the more men would do the same.


I am such a big advocate of leaders learning to follow!! But how do you get men
to 
understand this?  I have a class on following attended by some leaders who are
really 
committed to their dancing, and they are beginning to follow very well and it
is showing up 
in their leading. But it is not attended by the people who need it - especially
people who 
are teachers, or people who are teaching their followers (requested or not).
How do you get 
leaders to work on following?

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis






      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 17:48:53 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:48:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <C069C59DBDAD4796BE4DA55BAE94700D@gatewaylaptop>
Message-ID: <518181.3478.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 10/9/08, Lois Donnay <donnay at donnay.net> wrote:
> How do you get leaders to work on following?

Maybe tricking them is the way to go.  Perhaps having the men do a combination that has them doing variations on the molinete as leaders.  Or perhaps they are the ones doing the backward ochos.  If you can open up a window by using the female vocabulary, then perhaps the men would be more motivated to work on actually following later on.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 18:00:08 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Lead and follow
Message-ID: <905726.9724.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I don't get it...why is the guy always the 'heavy'?
  Are men always the 'stupid' one? Always who 'needs improvement'?
  Always too thick to 'understand' that they should learn to dance in the woman's shoes, too?
  This just sounds like 'bull' to me..sorry.
  Give me a place where 'men are men' and 'women are women' ... then the fun really begins.

       

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 18:24:11 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <905726.9724.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <391604.36262.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't get it...why is the guy always the
> 'heavy'?
>   Are men always the 'stupid' one? Always who
> 'needs improvement'?
>   Always too thick to 'understand' that they should
> learn to dance in the woman's shoes, too?
>   This just sounds like 'bull' to me..sorry.
>   Give me a place where 'men are men' and
> 'women are women' ... then the fun really begins.


Men aren't always the 'stupid" one, but he does assume a responsibility toward the woman.  If he's not prepared to accept that responsibility, then he needs to try some other dance.  Tango expects the "men to be men" and accept that responsibility.

There is absolutely no mistaking that the more a man understands the woman's role, the better a leader he becomes.  For older milongueros they learned the woman's role without even trying - they went to practicas to try out steps and in the process learned the woman's role.  It helped that they were in their teens or twenties.  The men who start today at age 30+ generally need to be more conscious about learning the woman's role.

Perhaps, one day, if you learned the woman's role, you'll better understand why learning to follow adds so much to the man's arsenal.  Until you learn it, you might not appreciate it.

Trini de Pittsburgh








      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Fri Oct 10 23:44:40 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:44:40 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
References: <905726.9724.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42758C9EC5CE4F4D84C0FCA373CCFB25@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
I think you're missing the point. Imagine how a woman feels dancing. Shes moving backwards, unable to see. Yet, she has to entrust her safety and security to somebody who may not be paying attention to traffic. Women want to feel protected from harm. On top of that, they want a chance to use their skill without worrying about being pulled off balance.

I took a non scientifc random survey of women 8 years ago in Washington, DC and Denver and asked what they wanted in a partner. The answers were almost universal:

A lead that is on the beat
A lead that has confidence
A lead that is firm, but gentle

The whole dance revolves around the woman. When you understand and can give what the good followers want, you will be in demand. When the woman looks and feel good, that's when the man looks and feels good. I don't see how man can look good at the woman's expense.

As for "Give me a place where 'men are men' and 'women are women' ", I suggest you go to Lake Wobegone, MN "where all the women are strong; all the men good looking; all the children, above average."

Michael Ditkoff
Next year, I'm going to BA--for the first time

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow


I don't get it...why is the guy always the 'heavy'?
  Are men always the 'stupid' one? Always who 'needs improvement'?
  Always too thick to 'understand' that they should learn to dance in the woman's shoes, too?
  This just sounds like 'bull' to me..sorry.
  Give me a place where 'men are men' and 'women are women' ... then the fun really begins.


From devaldivia at gmail.com  Sat Oct 11 07:27:38 2008
From: devaldivia at gmail.com (Bryan De Valdivia)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:27:38 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Virtual Reality Goggles for Tango Training
Message-ID: <ee62b11a0810110427w588d454vd401673f34846904@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Here's another geeky thing I've developed.  Anyone can go out and buy
a similar setup and take advantage of a 3rd person Point of View while
practicing.

Appreciate hearing off-list what you think.

http://www.devaldivia.com/

thanks,
b.

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 11 23:40:47 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
Message-ID: <308612.41855.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I'm still open to the idea, but I'm not convinced about any big improvement 
that the man will make by learning to dance?the woman's role.

Yes, of course the man must understand the woman's role and must know 
all her steps and pivots that he is going to lead?but, IMHO,?I don't think that 
requires the man to actually be able to dance the woman's role. There might 
be some minor advantage but we all have a limted amount of time to spend 
on our tango and?is it really time and cost effective to learn and practice in? 
the woman's role when we could spend that time learning and practicing in 
our natural role?

And just who will lead these men who want to learn the woman's role? I might 
be being selfish but I'm certainly not going to spend my time and risk?possibly?
injury by leading a large, clumsy man. And one thing?I am convinced of is that 
my leading technique will not improve by leading? men; men and women are 
just too different and I don't just mean physically.

The other thing that puts me off is that whenever I see a man dancing? the 
woman's role, he's invariably using it as just another way of showing off. 
'Look at me; look how clever I am'. Also, the other way around and?from my
experience, women learning to lead definitely doesn't improve her ability to
follow.

Finally, there's been a lot of talk about "That's how the older milongueros 
learned". But, let's not forget that it wasn't by choice because it make them 
better dancers. That was the ONLY way they could learn.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Perhaps, one day, if you learned the woman's role, you'll better understand why 
> learning to follow adds so much to the man's arsenal.? Until you learn it, you 
> might not appreciate it.
> 



      



From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Oct 11 23:59:14 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:59:14 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Returning to the Basics
Message-ID: <20081011.205914.1402.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

This Wednesday I'm going to the Portland TangoFest in Oregon, organized 
by Clay Nelson and his compadres.

http://www.claysdancestudio.com/tangofest/index.shtml

This is number 12, so I'm guessing they're doing something right! 
Mostly I just intend to go to all the milongas, visit a friend, and see 
some of the city. But they have an interesting mix of teachers, so I'm 
going to take a few classes. And thereby hangs a ... point of 
discussion.

I'm only going to take the very basic classes, because my attitude 
toward tango dancing has changed in the almost-twenty years since I 
started tango. At first I worked to get comfortable with (master would 
be an exageration) the basics. Then (and like most everyone at the 
time) I got obsessed with learning the most complicated, showy figures. 
(Thank you, all you wonderful women who put up with me!)

Several years into tango I heard a statement attributed to Puppy 
Costello (who, incidentally, preferred that spelling to Pupi) - 
"Figures are easy; walking is hard." It puzzled me for a while, until I 
remembered a number of other activities where I had to "practice the 
scales" often to keep my skills sharp.

It also makes sense, too, that to do (for instance) colgadas well you 
have to have good body control, in several areas. You must also be 
quite skilled at leading and following, especially when dancing with 
relative beginners.

Which brings up a related point. I've found that it helps me to dance 
occasionally with women who are relative beginners. I have to make 
especially sure my leading is clear and well-timed then, and this acts 
as practice for those skills.

Which brings up a point I make periodically here and in similar forums. 
When dancing at a milonga you are inevitably practicing all sorts of 
skills. But the most important is practicing having fun, and practicing 
NOT thinking.

It is a happy side-effect of dancing with beginners that you help them 
to have a good time at a dance. And when they become skilled there is another happy side-effect - many of them remember your kindness and you get more dances.

Larry de Los Angeles


____________________________________________________________
Security Camera for your small business. Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiexplAFxIVrGrVsrWjvssmZCuDpo579waZR8BUu9dhndg5HM/


From stermitz at tango.org  Sun Oct 12 00:39:36 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 22:39:36 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <308612.41855.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <308612.41855.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D6B649A6-F911-449A-B1D9-90EF1ECE90BD@tango.org>


On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Jack Dylan wrote:

> I'm still open to the idea, but I'm not convinced about any big  
> improvement
> that the man will make by learning to dance the woman's role.

Specifically:

If you experience the movements of the follower, you feel what she  
does inside her body and you will find it far easier to figure out how  
to lead those movements. Leading another person well is a very deep  
experience, like a martial arts. Doing it yourself is extremely  
enlightening.

That's the main benefit. There are a number of other reasons. For  
example
  - The follower learns technique sooner than the leader.
  - By following you feel what you are supposed to feel like.

If you are dead set against it for ideological or psychological  
reasons... well, fine. You don't have to anything you don't want to.  
I'm just telling you what is extremely obvious to me.

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207



From devaldivia at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 10:43:29 2008
From: devaldivia at gmail.com (Bryan De Valdivia)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:43:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] LINK FIX to Virtual Reality Goggles for Tango Training
Message-ID: <ee62b11a0810120743i400436ffo509a1b07738dae5e@mail.gmail.com>

Go to http://devaldivia.com/ and NOT the http: //w ww.devaldivia . com
address, for some reason the www address is not forwarding.

b.

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 12 12:14:24 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:14:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <D6B649A6-F911-449A-B1D9-90EF1ECE90BD@tango.org>
Message-ID: <152533.41178.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 10/12/08, Tom Stermitz <stermitz at tango.org> wrote:

> Leading another person well is a very deep experience, like a martial arts. Doing it yourself is extremely enlightening.
> 
> That's the main benefit. There are a number of other
> reasons. For example
>   - The follower learns technique sooner than the leader.

Even more specifically, it's the work that the woman does with spiraling (ochos, molinetes, boleos) that can most benefit the man.  All that spiraling of the spine gives flexibility that the man can use in every part of his dance. 


>   - By following you feel what you are supposed to feel
> like.
> 

And it works the same way for women, too.  By learning how to lead, women can learn to feel what they are supposed to feel like.  And what the man feels when she does it poorly.  

In leading, the woman also learns better technique for what the guys do all the time (walking forward) and gets to work on developing core muscles (our weak spot).  Women who learn to lead can benefit IF they work on technique.  Those that lead for the purpose of learning steps aren't any better than the guys that learn only steps.

As with any type of learning, the experience is only as good as what one wants to get out of it.  So part of the trick of learning is knowing what is you want to learn.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 12 13:24:03 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Lead and follow
Message-ID: <959768.60599.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is still the benchmark class on Tango Walking. 
  Oscar Casas class on the 'Shark Walk'..it dosen't get any better than this...so far, anyway.
   
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=xj1RjRLEm1I

       

From bafonso at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 14:39:10 2008
From: bafonso at gmail.com (Bruno Afonso)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:39:10 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
In-Reply-To: <308612.41855.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <308612.41855.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4f5d14730810121139p41eb8a97me8c2518b0e0bd7a2@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Yes, of course the man must understand the woman's role and must know
>  all her steps and pivots that he is going to lead but, IMHO, I don't think that
>  requires the man to actually be able to dance the woman's role. There might
>  be some minor advantage but we all have a limted amount of time to spend
>  on our tango and is it really time and cost effective to learn and practice in
>  the woman's role when we could spend that time learning and practicing in
>  our natural role?

You will never understand the women's role if you don't attempt to do
it in a conscious way. This is very clear to me.

I believe that after a certain initial level you will improve as a
dancer at a much higher rate if you practice following. You will
realize much faster what is happening, figure out ways to tackle
issues, become aware and conscious of both roles and actually be able
to help out followers that ask for feedback. I'd rather spend 1/10 of
my time following than 10x more practicing something that I have no
idea of what it feels like to someone else.


>  And just who will lead these men who want to learn the woman's role? I might
>  be being selfish but I'm certainly not going to spend my time and risk possibly
>  injury by leading a large, clumsy man. And one thing I am convinced of is that
>  my leading technique will not improve by leading  men; men and women are
>  just too different and I don't just mean physically.

If the man feels clumsy and large, he's not doing it right. If you
learn how to follow you will be able to tell him what he should
practice to change that. A lot of exercises can be done alone,
developing good technique. I've found working with men is a very
different practicing experience with very interesting outcomes. It has
been, in all honesty, an enlightening experience sometimes. Specially
because we drop the "be nice filter". I won't practice w/ every men
but then again, I will probably spend a lot more time practicing w/
some women than others.

The amazing dancers I admire - both men and women - are very
proficient at the non-traditional role. It's a no brainer to me.

Besides, there's nothing more sexy than a woman that knows how to lead
with style. I don't know how women feel about this though. :-)

b
-- 
Bruno Afonso
http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 15 12:02:44 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:02:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
Message-ID: <310192.71253.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

                     Melina and Detleff doing their interpretation of a Milonga
  This has got to be the most different looking Milonga that I've yet seen on YouTube
  Wow, super control and discipline introduced into a song that sings more of freedom
  and playfullness.....what do you think?  Does it work?
  Certainly, it's a new alternative to all of the non-Milonga dancers out there who only
  dance the Slo-Tango.
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=d70Zz7j2m90
   
   

       

From politas at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 12:38:45 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:38:45 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
In-Reply-To: <310192.71253.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <310192.71253.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48F61C95.50500@gmail.com>

Mario wrote:
>                      Melina and Detleff doing their interpretation of a Milonga
>   This has got to be the most different looking Milonga that I've yet seen on YouTube
>   Wow, super control and discipline introduced into a song that sings more of freedom
>   and playfullness.....what do you think?  Does it work?
>   Certainly, it's a new alternative to all of the non-Milonga dancers out there who only
>   dance the Slo-Tango.

Mario, I don't know what you're talking about. That's a wonderfully 
playful dance! Lots of hip-wiggling and tricky little traspies. When my 
milongas come close to that level of playfulness, my partners finish the 
dance with a delighted laugh.

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Wed Oct 15 12:43:17 2008
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:43:17 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, Malina Detlef milonga clip
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1135.1224087376.26310.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1135.1224087376.26310.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C70395C435@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

 

Mario, I agree that appears to be a minimalist style; although he does
get a little more animated toward the end.   First, lets me say
something nice about them-   This is fine social dancing,  esp for a
crowded floor, and the posture is superb.   But,  is this an interesting
performance?  If you are going to the trouble to perform, should there
not be a little more emotion, play with the rhythm, excitement,
something ?   This couple is just way too dry for my taste.  This is
just a subjective opinion, I am sure there are many who love them.   
-Martin


From natiber at charter.net  Wed Oct 15 13:16:48 2008
From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:16:48 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military? (Mario)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1135.1224087376.26310.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1135.1224087376.26310.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3C8D5628-B13D-4473-8E4B-8591D21F44F1@charter.net>

Mario,
IMO it works. Sometimes less is more!
Their superb technique allows for this form of "freedom
  and playfulness..."
Norm
On Oct 15, 2008, at 9:16 AM, tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote:

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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:02:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Message-ID: <310192.71253.qm at web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>                      Melina and Detleff doing their interpretation  
> of a Milonga
>   This has got to be the most different looking Milonga that I've  
> yet seen on YouTube
>   Wow, super control and discipline introduced into a song that  
> sings more of freedom
>   and playfullness.....what do you think?  Does it work?
>   Certainly, it's a new alternative to all of the non-Milonga  
> dancers out there who only
>   dance the Slo-Tango.
>   http://youtube.com/watch?v=d70Zz7j2m90
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
> End of Tango-L Digest, Vol 31, Issue 13
> ***************************************


From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 15 14:02:04 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
In-Reply-To: <310192.71253.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <760882.8989.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Melina and Detleff doing their interpretation of a Milonga
>   This has got to be the most different looking Milonga
> that I've yet seen on YouTube
>   Wow, super control and discipline introduced into a song
> that sings more of freedom
>   and playfullness.....what do you think?  Does it work?

Mario, your interpretation of this music is quite different from mine.  This milonga by Canaro is somewhat stately and subdued (for grownups), unlike Canaro's Reliquias Portenas, which is fast and playful (gigglefest).  Yes, I'd say Melina's and Detlef's interpretation is spot-on, and is a good match for the second part of the video, which is a slow DiSarli number.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 15 14:06:33 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, Malina Detlef milonga clip
Message-ID: <98004.49409.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

What I really dislike about the milonga video is Melina's left arm position.. 
That looks really uncomfortable for Detlef. In the second dance on the 
video her arm is back to a more-normal over the shoulder position.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: "Nussbaum, Martin" mnussbau at law.nyc.gov

> This is fine social dancing,? esp for a
> crowded floor, and the posture is superb.?> 


      



From flame at 2xtreme.net  Thu Oct 16 01:57:31 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:57:31 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
Message-ID: <48F6755B.19416.B3B3E@flame.2xtreme.net>

What I see is an example of "less is more". 
John McCain & Sarah Palin - the "icks" of mavericks.

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Oct 16 03:45:53 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:45:53 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Is the Milonga going Military?
Message-ID: <20081016.004553.5324.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com>

The milonga Mario cites

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d70Zz7j2m90

is an example of different people perceiving the same activity in 
very different ways. I thought it charming and expressive.

It is also an example of how you might dance in the literally shoulder-
to-shoulder very-popular milongas of Buenos Aires. Many short steps 
that don't move the couple very far very fast, circular movements to 
stay in place, but always moving in la pista, the track or flow of the 
dance.

Larry de Los Angeles
happy in Portland at their tango festival


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From mekimdung at tang-go.net  Thu Oct 16 04:59:18 2008
From: mekimdung at tang-go.net (mekimdung)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:59:18 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
Message-ID: <c96e41720810160159o6599c163le6a425a4d1b5ccc2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi you,

-------------------
Without going into musical notation to show the rhythm, the easiest
way to describe it is to count out loud from 1 to 8, but emphasising
or clapping the numbers underlined:

One 2 3 Four Five 6 Seven 8.

(http://www.totaltango.co.uk/Forms/tangomusic.pdf)
-------------------

+ In this "1 4 5 7" form, I think I can step on One, Five (Is this right?)

-------------------
Tango rhythms ? especially in later tangos - are often syncopated (ie.
with emphasis on the off beat). Using the same system as above we can
see that the downbeats fall on the odd numbers, the even numbers are
the up-beats or off-beats. So, we can indicate this use of syncopation
with another typical tango rhythm:

One 2 3 Four 5 6 Seven 8

This is sometimes called a 3,3,2 rhythm because of the way the bar is
divided up.

(http://www.totaltango.co.uk/Forms/tangomusic.pdf)
-------------------

+ So, how can I dance this kind of form? Which "number" do I have to step on?

+ And, can you give me a list of "3 3 2 tango" song, for example, please?

Thank you very much.

---
Minh Quan
Tango Hanoi, Vietnam
Tang-go.net


From stermitz at tango.org  Thu Oct 16 10:38:37 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:38:37 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
In-Reply-To: <c96e41720810160159o6599c163le6a425a4d1b5ccc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c96e41720810160159o6599c163le6a425a4d1b5ccc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ABADB2E-38EC-4782-8301-17E833FE9C2C@tango.org>

Good question.

This is different from the Habanero rhythm which is also embedded in  
tango:
Bump-b-Dump-Bump, Bump-b-Dump-Bump, Bump-b-Dump-Bump,

Or what I call the reverse habanero:
Bump-Bump-b-Bump, Bump-Bump-b-Bump, Bump-Bump-b-Bump,


As you note, the "strong" or "walking" beat is syncopated and you  
would typically step on the ONE, FOUR, SEVEN, but to do this all the  
time would start to become repetitious and lose the syncopated feel.

An interesting song that focuses on the steady One, Four, Seven is  
Melingo's "Leonel El Feo".

One variation would be to step on the ONE and FOUR, holding across the  
SEVEN.

However, instead of dancing steady, you need to mix in the rhythmic  
steps on the 2,3,5,6 or 8 which adds a nice counterpoint. It has to  
come from feel, or demonstration as it is difficult to explain and  
more difficult to do. For that listen to 40s Troilo, like Cachirulo.


In addition, this 1,4,7 with 2,3,5,6,8 counterpoint will involve a lot  
of internal body motion: hips, tummy, spiral. In tango we might  
usually be stepping on the regular walking or rhythmic steps, while  
using syncopation internally.


Now, for extra points (or brain damage), try dancing tango to the  
Ballroom rhythm of Half-and Half.


On Oct 16, 2008, at 2:59 AM, mekimdung wrote:

> Hi you,
>
> -------------------
> Without going into musical notation to show the rhythm, the easiest
> way to describe it is to count out loud from 1 to 8, but emphasising
> or clapping the numbers underlined:
>
> One 2 3 Four Five 6 Seven 8.
>
> (http://www.totaltango.co.uk/Forms/tangomusic.pdf)
> -------------------


From dchester at charter.net  Thu Oct 16 11:21:16 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:21:16 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
Message-ID: <20081016112116.P8S2R.62431.root@mp13>

Here is an example of a song that has a 3-3-2 rythym, Zitarosa by Bajofondo. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzMQdd0AEEM

As for how to dance it, there is no one correct way (like all songs).  Using the 8 beat nomenclature that was previously used, one could step on the 1 & 5 beats (2 slows), step on 1, 3, & 5 (Quick quick slow) or step on 1, 5 & 7 (Slow, quick quick), basically just like any other tango.  In addition, the 3-3-2 rythym also allows you to use the 4 beat, such as stepping on 1, 4, & 7 or just stepping on 1 & 4.

I imagine other people could come up with more ideas.

Regards,

David

From melvillefox at aol.com  Thu Oct 16 15:54:09 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:54:09 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
In-Reply-To: <20081016112116.P8S2R.62431.root@mp13>
References: <20081016112116.P8S2R.62431.root@mp13>
Message-ID: <8CAFDE016D93A29-14CC-19D4@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>

Here is an example of a song that has a 3-3-2 rythym, Zitarosa by 
Bajofondo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzMQdd0AEEM

_________________________________________________________

This is not tango music. And after the couple gers past the 
sleep-walking in the beginning, it looks like they are dancing salsa or 
some other Latin dance. It completely lacks the tango feeling.

Why is it so many people keep on insisting on walking through tango 
like steps to non-tango music and then call it tango?

Next time I hear La Cumparsita at a milonga, I think I'll dance swing 
to it. Won't that go over well?

Mel



From eyegee at twcny.rr.com  Thu Oct 16 16:50:00 2008
From: eyegee at twcny.rr.com (Ira Goldstein)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:50:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] the "3 3 2" rhythm
In-Reply-To: <8CAFDE016D93A29-14CC-19D4@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <20081016112116.P8S2R.62431.root@mp13>
	<8CAFDE016D93A29-14CC-19D4@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c51d587ce792@[69.202.88.98]>

Aren't most of of Piazzolla's compositions in this "3 3 2" rhythm?

BA-da-da-BA-da-da-BA-da
BA-da-da-BA-da-da-BA-da
etc.

--Ira
Ithaca, NY

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Oct 16 23:25:38 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 03:25:38 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] What to do when teh floor is tight
Message-ID: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

I went to the welcome milonga held here in Portland Oregon at the 
Tango Fest. There were several hundred people so, despite the large 
floor, the crowd was tight. Not as much as the most popular milongas 
in Buenos Aires, but not much looser.

Which brings up the question - what can you do to make a dance 
interesting when the floor is that tight?

Wow! Its later than I tht. Time to go to tonight's milonga!

Larry de Los Angeles
happy in Portland Or


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From martin at waxman.net  Fri Oct 17 08:09:20 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:09:20 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  What to do when the floor is tight
In-Reply-To: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081017080519.01e08410@waxman.net>

View Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt improvising in a small space:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMyNZId4Zc

At 11:25 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>I went to the welcome milonga held here in Portland Oregon at the
>Tango Fest. There were several hundred people so, despite the large
>floor, the crowd was tight. Not as much as the most popular milongas
>in Buenos Aires, but not much looser.
>Which brings up the question - what can you do to make a dance
>interesting when the floor is that tight?
>Larry de Los Angeles





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From tango.society at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 09:24:30 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:24:30 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] What to do when teh floor is tight
In-Reply-To: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340810170624m493bd5a3h6e6c57c35b987365@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:25 PM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
> I went to the welcome milonga held here in Portland Oregon at the
> Tango Fest. There were several hundred people so, despite the large
> floor, the crowd was tight. Not as much as the most popular milongas
> in Buenos Aires, but not much looser.
>
> Which brings up the question - what can you do to make a dance
> interesting when the floor is that tight?

For the crowded floor:

- Hold your partner close.
- Take small steps.
- Keep your feet on the floor.
- Stay in the line of dance.
- Do not move blindly in any direction. Only move in a direction where
space is opening (rather than closing).
- Keep moving when the ronda is moving. Do not stop the flow.
- Progress around the floor with turning patterns. Linear walks are
limited. Be prepared to change the direction of turns.

'Interesting' comes from creativity in varying the turns you use.
However, in the end it is the available space that dictates your
movements you can make.

This assumes variety of movement is what makes dancing 'interesting'.
Holding someone close in a small space can be interesting, too, in a
different way.

Ron

From tdval at wanadoo.fr  Fri Oct 17 09:32:27 2008
From: tdval at wanadoo.fr (Valentin TIEDE)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:32:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
In-Reply-To: <30917883.3399.1224228537269.JavaMail.www@wwinf2628>
References: <30917883.3399.1224228537269.JavaMail.www@wwinf2628>
Message-ID: <10126912.17015.1224250347278.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b10>


Counting steps and beats when dancing Tango ...

This is as if you drink a bottle of champagne discussing the chemical analysis of the wine; as if you see a beautifull sunset discussing the frequencies of the electromagnetic waves going into the eyes.
I'm still a tango-beginner and I guess, the Tango-experts outside Buenos Aires know more about the tango, than the milongueros, who don't know how to count and dance "only" by feeling"the music...
Valentin


From brick at fastpack.com  Fri Oct 17 14:10:31 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:10:31 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps and beats when dancing Tango. Was: How to
	dance the "3 3 2" form
Message-ID: <ca2c2380810171110k77b762c4tfe64aded369ee1ab@mail.gmail.com>

 Valentin TIEDE <tdval at wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>Counting steps and beats when dancing Tango ...
>
>This is as if you drink a bottle of champagne discussing the chemical analysis of the wine; as if you see a beautifull sunset >discussing the frequencies of the electromagnetic waves going into the eyes.
>I'm still a tango-beginner and I guess, the Tango-experts outside Buenos Aires know more about the tango, than the >milongueros, who don't know how to count and dance "only" by feeling"the music...

Not really.

At least for leaders, it is like learning how to create the bottle of
champagne by discussing methods of growing & harvesting grapes,
pressing the wine and bottling, or learning how to paint a beautiful
sunset by discussing brush types, technique in brush strokes, types of
paint and types of canvas.

In tango, leaders at least, do not go out and enjoy the product
created by someone else, or found native in the wild. The dancer has
to create it.

That being said, most good dancers probably don't "Count" while
dancing, any more than proficient readers recite the alphabet while
reading. But counting can be a useful tool while learning, and I'm
sure, long ago, most of the old milongueros  spent at least some time
counting beats and counting steps.

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 17 15:21:31 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:21:31 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps or beats while dancing tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W46AE245ADF416729267C4897320@phx.gbl>



,,,"But counting can be a useful tool while learning, and I'm
sure, long ago, most of the old milongueros spent at least some time
counting beats and counting steps."

IMO counting steps or beats is totally useless when learning tango musicality.
 
I grew up in Buenos Aires, I have known many dancers, I have seen many tango instructors teaching, I have never seen anyone counting beats or steps.  
 
Counting steps is a custom of ball room dancing.  IMO counting helps to remember all the steps of a figure, if you know the total number of moves that compose such a figure but is detrimental in the sense of distracting your mind from the dancing itself.  Once you learn to count you will do it for a very long time.
 
In Argentine Tango, you show the steps, you teach exercises to acquire the necessary skills to execute them, you allow the students to do them, you correct and add technique and style.
 
Argentine tango is unique in the sense that you do not have to step on every beat, you have the freedom to step on "any" beat .
 
At times you may walk on every third beat, or every second beat, or do a run using every beat, or pause and do nothing for several beats.
 
>From this perspective IMO, all that you need to do is to recognize where the beat is.  This should be taught by the instructor, walking with you and stepping properly on the beat. Once you recognize the beat, you step as you wish, you dance slow or fast, you pause. the only concer is : you must step on "a" beat, any beat, you cannot step off the beat.
 
You dance the slow moments (adagios) differently from the fast moments (variaciones), you use different dynamics in your dancing as you feel the music. You learn to use some moves at the precise time.
 
Counting, IMO is useless but if this is a valuable teaching/learning instrument for you, by all means continue to use it.
 
Analyzing the music is more useful (IMO) from another perspective, such as knowing that a tango has a beginning, a mid portion , a preparation for the ending, and an ending. That each portion has its own characteristics.  Learn to recognize those characteristics.
 
To learn to recognize each instrument, as each one takes turn to come to the front, and how they seem to interact or "talk" to each other.
 
To learn that the beat may always be present, but that at times it disappears and you still step on the "Imaginary" beat. You may learn to dance to the melody at times to return to the basic beat, back and forth.
 
To learn how "contrapunto" is used where two melodies interact or fuse, etc.
 
Summary: IMO counting has no place in tango.
 
Best wishes, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 17 16:58:10 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What to do when teh floor is tight
In-Reply-To: <20081016.202538.20505.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5018.33697.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Nice video, Matin.  As a follower, I personally find it interesting when the man does musical footwork while he's leading me something basic (like back crosses) in place.  It's also cool when he just stands there while leading me into things.  Or perhaps he's playing with my free foot (we contact and he moves it around playfully).  

A fun exercise to try is for the man to stand in one place and see what he can lead his partner into.  He'll need to be on both feet for this, shifting weight as needed.  If you think of a step as a combination of an extension, weight transfer, closing, and/or pivot, then you can combine these different elements in a variety of ways - all in place.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- On Thu, 10/16/08, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:

> From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] What to do when teh floor is tight
> To: tango-L at mit.edu
> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 11:25 PM
> I went to the welcome milonga held here in Portland Oregon
> at the 
> Tango Fest. There were several hundred people so, despite
> the large 
> floor, the crowd was tight. Not as much as the most popular
> milongas 
> in Buenos Aires, but not much looser.
> 
> Which brings up the question - what can you do to make a
> dance 
> interesting when the floor is that tight?
> 
> Wow! Its later than I tht. Time to go to tonight's
> milonga!
> 
> Larry de Los Angeles
> happy in Portland Or
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Someone in your city has the hots f
> Click here to find out who!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/JKFkuJNztxSzoelZv3dxDr6HxrIlv9zLo9OFCxHv9v3z6fLMc8hLiy/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

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From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 17 17:17:57 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:17:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps or beats while dancing tango
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W46AE245ADF416729267C4897320@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <854751.16083.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There might be some confusion of issues, here.  I've seen lots of Argentine teachers use counts, but they use them to teach patterns not musicality.

Argentine instructors seem to use nonsense phrases to indicate musicality, including rolling their r's.  Americans don't really have any good phrasing.  Fa-la-la-da-de-da doesn't quite work.

I believe the counting of beats arose from trying to understand musical notation and using language that musicians use.   I've found it quite useful for learning/teaching things like syncopas or the milonga rhythm.  But other methods work well, too.

For understanding cadence, a very effective device is using sentences or words.  When teaching the ocho cortado, I'll sometimes use a local radio joke "partly cloudy in Allegheny county" (the weather forecast any day of the year) to help students get the timing right.  

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Fri, 10/17/08, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps or beats while dancing tango
> To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 3:21 PM
> ,,,"But counting can be a useful tool while learning,
> and I'm
> sure, long ago, most of the old milongueros spent at least
> some time
> counting beats and counting steps."
> 
> IMO counting steps or beats is totally useless when
> learning tango musicality.
>  
> I grew up in Buenos Aires, I have known many dancers, I
> have seen many tango instructors teaching, I have never seen
> anyone counting beats or steps.  
>  
> Counting steps is a custom of ball room dancing.  IMO
> counting helps to remember all the steps of a figure, if you
> know the total number of moves that compose such a figure
> but is detrimental in the sense of distracting your mind
> from the dancing itself.  Once you learn to count you will
> do it for a very long time.
>  
> In Argentine Tango, you show the steps, you teach exercises
> to acquire the necessary skills to execute them, you allow
> the students to do them, you correct and add technique and
> style.
>  
> Argentine tango is unique in the sense that you do not have
> to step on every beat, you have the freedom to step on
> "any" beat .
>  
> At times you may walk on every third beat, or every second
> beat, or do a run using every beat, or pause and do nothing
> for several beats.
>  
> >From this perspective IMO, all that you need to do is
> to recognize where the beat is.  This should be taught by
> the instructor, walking with you and stepping properly on
> the beat. Once you recognize the beat, you step as you wish,
> you dance slow or fast, you pause. the only concer is : you
> must step on "a" beat, any beat, you cannot step
> off the beat.
>  
> You dance the slow moments (adagios) differently from the
> fast moments (variaciones), you use different dynamics in
> your dancing as you feel the music. You learn to use some
> moves at the precise time.
>  
> Counting, IMO is useless but if this is a valuable
> teaching/learning instrument for you, by all means continue
> to use it.
>  
> Analyzing the music is more useful (IMO) from another
> perspective, such as knowing that a tango has a beginning, a
> mid portion , a preparation for the ending, and an ending.
> That each portion has its own characteristics.  Learn to
> recognize those characteristics.
>  
> To learn to recognize each instrument, as each one takes
> turn to come to the front, and how they seem to interact or
> "talk" to each other.
>  
> To learn that the beat may always be present, but that at
> times it disappears and you still step on the
> "Imaginary" beat. You may learn to dance to the
> melody at times to return to the basic beat, back and forth.
>  
> To learn how "contrapunto" is used where two
> melodies interact or fuse, etc.
>  
> Summary: IMO counting has no place in tango.
>  
> Best wishes, Sergio
> _________________________________________________________________
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> your PC.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

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From dchester at charter.net  Fri Oct 17 17:19:32 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:19:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to dance the "3 3 2" form
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1129.1224260410.3908.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1129.1224260410.3908.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <003f01c9309e$0f08a2c0$2d19e840$@net>

For me, I don't count when I dance, just like I don't count when playing
music.  However, when learning something new, in TANGO or in music,
"understanding" the rhythm (along with other "technical things") is helpful
to me.  If it is not to anyone else, so be it, but we don't all learn the
same way.

What I do when learning something in tango, is first I tackle what I call
the "analytic" (or technical) aspects, and only after I feel comfortable
with that, then I can move onto the artist and/or emotional aspects.  For
those of you who don't need to do that, try to remember (or at least
understand), we are not all as fortunate as you are, but we are doing the
best that we can with what we have.  And for me, it works quite well.

In my opinion, one big advantage in talking in analytic terms, is that the
language tends to be less ambiguous.  Now with the question that started
this whole thing (how to dance to a 3-3-2 rhythm), I was simply trying to be
helpful with my reply, in as clear and simple of a way that I knew how.
First I gave an example of a song that had an easily identifiable 3-3-2
rhythm, and then I gave some examples of step rhythms, that could be used.
It's not the complete solution, but it's the best that I could briefly do.
If someone has a better way of how to be helpful to the with the question,
please try.

Now someone who really can feel the music wouldn't need to ask that
question.  Even if they don't know consciously what they are doing, at a
subconscious level they know when to step, and when not to step (as you can
feel it from the music without any need to count, or even think about it).
It's so much a part of you, that you don't need to think about it.  

In fact, almost anything that you get really good at, you don't have to
think about, even though it can be quite complicated.  Try explaining how to
walk or ride a bicycle.  Most people couldn't explain it because they
haven't had to think about what they are doing for a very long time.  You
don't think about where to move you leg, what you do with your body to
balance, how to shift your balance, etc., but this is all going on.  In
music, we don't think twice about breaking things down, to aid in learning.
I'm not sure why some object to people doing that in tango (even if it isn't
how they learned).  

Sure, there is a LOT more to ANY art than just the technical aspects, but I
suspect it's as good a place to start as any place else, however I could be
wrong, so I welcome further debate on this (but forgive me if I ignore the
whining).

Regards,

David  





From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 18 00:34:01 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:34:01 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps or beats while dancing tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W17F91B44E94B4D8B4468C2972D0@phx.gbl>



I agree with David, as I said before if you have a teaching/learning method that is useful for you, by all means continue to use it.

I also agree with Trina, I have seen Argentine instructors counting, this happens mostly outside of Argentina or in B.A. where tango is taught to foreigners, eventually some improvised instructors end up counting as it is done in Ballroom teaching. It has become very common to refer to the steps of the "tango base" by numbers 1 to 8. "the * count base" or to the steps of the "Right walked turn" by numbers 1 to 8 as well.  But we are talking about musicality...

...It is obvious that there are many ways to teach and to learn tango musicality.  I have taught many people to recognize the tango beat, just by walking with them to the music.  I only remember one case that could not recognize any beat, not in tango nor in any other dance.

Then I normally teach to walk around the room in many different ways, using different combinations of "slows" and "quicks", I do not call them by that name but I cannot see any problem with calling them slows, quicks, or 1-2 slow and then 1-2 quicks, etc, etc.

As I said before the important thing is to recognize the beat and to know that you may step as you please as long as you step on a beat and you respect the character of the dance.  The variations in dynamics comes later as the student becomes more familiar with the music.

Sergio


_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/

From brick at fastpack.com  Sat Oct 18 15:37:15 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:37:15 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Counting steps and beats when dancing Tango. Was: How
	to dance the "3 3 2" form
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380810171110k77b762c4tfe64aded369ee1ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca2c2380810171110k77b762c4tfe64aded369ee1ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca2c2380810181237k25e187a2h537f03878ea59470@mail.gmail.com>

The musicians use counts when they identify the type of music.

Tango is 4/4, Vals is 3/4.

They use counts when they learn to play, and the most leaders do some
form of counting 1 -- 2-- 3 -- 4 when they start the orchestra
playing. Even purely improvisational musicians such as Jazz artists
usually do some form of this.

Tango is built upon a typical 8 bar (measure) harmonic cadence (chord
progression) so it is built upon major units of 4x8=32 beats.

I find, the most common pieces that lend themselves to movement tend
to be units of 2,4,8,16,32 beats, or half, one two four and 8 measures

Some find it useful to understand the structure of the music so they
can explore the possibilities that the structure presents.

Do I count when I dance? No.
Do I count when I practice? sometimes
Do I count when I learn? Yes

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 02:04:24 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What to do when the floor is tight
Message-ID: <73669.89936.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society at gmail.com>
> For the crowded floor:
> 
> - Hold your partner close.
> - Take small steps.
> - etec, etc >

Since Larry has had 20, or is it 30, years experience of Tango, 
I would assume he already?knows these simple rules and is 
looking to be more?inventive with his steps and figures.
?
> From: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>
> 
> View Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt improvising in a small space:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMyNZId4Zc
> 
I admire Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt?very much, so no disrespect 
to them, but, IMHO,?dancing in a small, fixed space is completely 
different to dancing in a small space, which is always changing?as 
it moves along the ronda and as other dancers close in and move 
away. Some dancers seem to have a 6th sense about this and 
always seem to have space, or are able to make space. I suppose 
it comes with experience. Nevertheless, this video does show some 
nice figures to dance in a small space. But, IMO,?the key is never 
to assume you'll still have space to complete any figure you start
and always be prepared to improvise.?
?
Of course, you still have 2 other alternatives - either sit down and 
watch or go find a place with more space. Personally, I can only 
take a crowded dance floor for so long and then I need to stretch 
my legs. That's the great thing about BsAs - if you don't like one 
milonga, you can always move on to another.
?
Jack


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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 21 14:45:52 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] El Maestro
Message-ID: <674254.89692.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tango veterans have seen this but for those that haven't
  I hope that this link works...it is two videos of Ricardo Vidort
  dancing in BsAs....and shows how simple beauty can be.
  http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/32ricardo.htm
  these are high definition videos and best to let download completely
  and then replay for your enjoyment and education. 
  Andele..

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 21 14:46:46 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] El Maestro
Message-ID: <40536.90219.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tango veterans have seen this but for those that haven't
  I hope that this link works...it is two videos of Ricardo Vidort
  dancing in BsAs....and shows how simple beauty can be.
  http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/32ricardo.htm
  these are high definition videos and best to let download completely
  and then replay for your enjoyment and education. 
  Andele..

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 21 14:59:02 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  El Maestro 2
Message-ID: <878647.61439.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sorry for the previous double post..but this one is not to be missed...another video
  of the essence of what we all are chasing..el duende..and is definately not a 'ghost'
  but rather the spirit of tango..the magic.. 
  http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/30ricardo.htm
  this is a great website and those who haven't seen it before.
   

       

From robinctara at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 12:52:56 2008
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:52:56 -0200
Subject: [Tango-L] New Years Eve in Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860810240952l56216ea2h596e9b59dadea688@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to be in BA for the holidays. Does anyone know of any
special tango events on New Years Eve?

Robin Tara

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 25 13:29:10 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:29:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009
Message-ID: <786349.89070.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know anything about Milongueando 2009? It's quite expensive but is it worth attending since I could be in BsAs at that time? Their website says it's the 3rd International Encuentro of Tango Milonguero in Buenos Aires. Did anyone attend either of the first two? Their website is at:

?http://www.milongueandoenba.com/new/english/home.html

Jack


      



From MACFroggy at aol.com  Sat Oct 25 13:42:25 2008
From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:42:25 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009
Message-ID: <c93.3633b3a8.3634b481@aol.com>

Hi Jack,

It's a nice event organized by Susana Miller. Ruben and I were invited last 
year. 
But my personal opinion is that there is no need to come to BsAs specifically 
to attend an organized   touristy "festival." Much better to just come and 
take the lessons you want and go to the milongas and dance with the locals.

cherie

http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ 


**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or 
Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.as
px?sc=668072&amp;hmpgID=82&amp;bcd=emailfooter)

From stermitz at tango.org  Sat Oct 25 14:39:17 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:39:17 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009
In-Reply-To: <786349.89070.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <786349.89070.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B90BBC44-34AD-4F00-B7CD-4B6B131D9D44@tango.org>

Several of my friends and students have attended this festival, even  
going back a second time. In contrast with many (most?) Tango  
Festivals, the instructional focus is on social dancing (not show  
tango), i.e. "how they actually dance at milongas in Buenos Aires".  
They liked meeting all the people in classes (foreign and Argentine),  
and made a lot of good personal connections for dancing at the  
milongas later, or for when they attend festivals in Europe or the US.

I notice that women who go to Buenos Aires often dance their feet off  
at the milongas and come back transformed and greatly improved.

You can't always say the same about the men who return from Buenos  
Aires. Sometimes they learned a bunch of more steps without actually  
improving;  Others return motivated by the realization that they don't  
know jack about tango, which is a frustrating, but possibly  
transformational experience.

With respect to the Milongueando festival, the men I know who attended  
did come back very much improved in their tango. In particular, their  
sense of musicality and their "feel", i.e. their feeling for the  
dance, as well as how they feel to dance with.

As Cherie says, you don't need a Festival in Buenos Aires to get  
better, you could just dance all night, every night at the milongas.  
That is a good strategy if you are successful with social tango  
already, and are comfortable dancing at a festival when the floor gets  
crowded.

On Oct 25, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Jack Dylan wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about Milongueando 2009? It's quite  
> expensive but is it worth attending since I could be in BsAs at that  
> time? Their website says it's the 3rd International Encuentro of  
> Tango Milonguero in Buenos Aires. Did anyone attend either of the  
> first two?
> Jack


Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207



From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 26 14:25:44 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009
References: <786349.89070.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <268443.74607.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I participated in Milongueando 2008 and have my flight and registration paid for for Milongueando 2009. I had a great time this past February and hope for the same this coming February. If' you'd like more info, let me know in personal e-mail.

...dubravko

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================




________________________________
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
To: Tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:29:10 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009

Does anyone know anything about Milongueando 2009? It's quite expensive but is it worth attending since I could be in BsAs at that time? Their website says it's the 3rd International Encuentro of Tango Milonguero in Buenos Aires. Did anyone attend either of the first two? Their website is at:

 http://www.milongueandoenba.com/new/english/home.html

Jack


      


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Mon Oct 27 09:09:26 2008
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:09:26 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Pictures from the Oct 2008 New York Tango Festival are up
	...
Message-ID: <bc7e48270810270609o62974d63uc28614fcfb863ff6@mail.gmail.com>

... at
http://www.bostonphotographs.com/index.html?openfolder=events/2008-10/NYC%20tango%20fest/

or if the direct link doesn't work, under events\2008-10\NYC tango fest.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin at bostonphotographs.com

From tangosherwin at aol.com  Mon Oct 27 10:33:24 2008
From: tangosherwin at aol.com (tangosherwin@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:33:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] What's the scoop on BsAs prices and milongas to visit
	these days?
Message-ID: <8CB06581A15651A-7FC-11EE@WEBMAIL-MA03.sysops.aol.com>

Planning a trip down South in Mid November! What do I need to know about Milongas and the costs for meals and taxis there...also recommendations for budget accommodations in Tango houses would be greatly appreciated. 

Sherwin
Infamous Chicago Tango Junkie

From tangosherwin at aol.com  Tue Oct 28 00:15:56 2008
From: tangosherwin at aol.com (tangosherwin@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:15:56 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Am I still subscribed?
Message-ID: <8CB06CB023DE68E-344-1B19@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com>

Sherwin Berger

From tangosherwin at aol.com  Tue Oct 28 09:55:56 2008
From: tangosherwin at aol.com (tangosherwin@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:55:56 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] test message
In-Reply-To: <8CB06CB023DE68E-344-1B19@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB06CB023DE68E-344-1B19@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CB071C089CAED6-D34-297B@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>

test message


-----Original Message-----
From: tangosherwin at aol.com
To: Tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:15 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Am I still subscribed?



Sherwin Berger
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 28 11:30:17 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:30:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] test message
In-Reply-To: <8CB071C089CAED6-D34-297B@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <564544.52747.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sherwin, 

   Enough already.  You very likely have opted for the "do not show my message" when you selected your mail options.  This is the THIRD message that appears on Tango-L in three days.  Trust me.  I emailed you privately earlier.

Nancy


--- On Tue, 10/28/08, tangosherwin at aol.com <tangosherwin at aol.com> wrote:

> From: tangosherwin at aol.com <tangosherwin at aol.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] test message
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 9:55 AM
> test message
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tangosherwin at aol.com
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:15 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] Am I still subscribed?
> 
> 
> 
> Sherwin Berger
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From tango at tangodesalon.de  Tue Oct 28 11:41:21 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:41:21 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina & Detlef: Thank you and new videos
Message-ID: <A18F7933-8377-436C-BC4B-9725B1B674A2@tangodesalon.de>

Dear friends,


we'd lik to thank all the students and hosts of our October-Tour to  
the USA. Your enthusiasm and active participation was an inspiration  
to us.

It was great, meeting you (again) and we hope to come back soon.  
Maybe not next year, but as soon as possible. We promise. :-)

For the meanwhile, have a look at some (6) videos of our performances  
during the last weeks. The following playlist contains demos from San  
Francisco, Portland, New York and Seattle. You may already know 1 or  
2 of them, but we have uploaded more during the last 3 days. So, enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/profile_video_blog?user=detlefmelina

If you do want to work with us in the next year, you will have to  
meet us in Europe or elsewhere. Just check our internet-site and  
you'll find our schedule:
Workshops: www.tangodesalon.de/en/schedule.htm
Tango-holidays: www.tangodesalon.de/en/schedule.htm
Some dates for 2009 are already set, but there will be much, much  
more to come...


Thank you so much,


Melina and Detlef




Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Oct 28 12:07:35 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:07:35 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] test message
In-Reply-To: <564544.52747.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <8CB071C089CAED6-D34-297B@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
	<564544.52747.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380810280907n39408b94m9d71ae29400be3e7@mail.gmail.com>

Sherwin:
Your email address might be bouncing.


On 10/28/08, NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sherwin,
>
>   Enough already.  You very likely have opted for the "do not show my
> message" when you selected your mail options.  This is the THIRD message
> that appears on Tango-L in three days.  Trust me.  I emailed you privately
> earlier.
>
> Nancy
>
>
> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, tangosherwin at aol.com <tangosherwin at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > From: tangosherwin at aol.com <tangosherwin at aol.com>
> > Subject: [Tango-L] test message
> > To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> > Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 9:55 AM
> > test message
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tangosherwin at aol.com
> > To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> > Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:15 pm
> > Subject: [Tango-L] Am I still subscribed?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sherwin Berger
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tango-L mailing list
> > Tango-L at mit.edu
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tango-L mailing list
> > Tango-L at mit.edu
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 28 14:03:18 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:03:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Open House
Message-ID: <914645.55772.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

If I recall correctly, some of you on this list may have organized or participated in an Open House event that brought all of the local teachers together.  I'm trying to do something similar (about 4 teaching couples) to attract new people and to promote greater cooperation.    

I'd appreciate any experience folks might have with an Open House.  Like how much time was allotted for each teaching couple?  Did the sessions run concurrently?  How did a milonga fit in?  

If you were a participant in such an event, what were the best/worse aspects?  What could have been improved?

Thanks in advance.

Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/  ?


      


From martin at waxman.net  Thu Oct 30 10:45:49 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:45:49 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]   What to do when the floor is tight
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081030104337.01dafc58@waxman.net>

Dancing on a baldosa (floor tile).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJcvrw7Nic8

Marty





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From tango.society at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 16:58:50 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:58:50 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What NOT to do when the floor is tight
Message-ID: <cff24c340810301358i7dce470boa86964ad0b39fcc3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net> wrote:
> Dancing on a baldosa (floor tile).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJcvrw7Nic8
>
> Marty

Dancing on a floor tile - Yes.

What to do when the floor is tight - Not exactly

Because

- The movements should progress forward along the line of dance in a
tight radius, not remain in one place.

- There were a couple of blind back steps against the line of dance.

- The woman should keep her feet on the floor to avoid kicking other
dancers. (What is it with all this kicking?)

Also, on crowded floors in the milongas of Buenos Aires, you may
actually need to dance in about half the space they used, so even
smaller steps.

I know Alex knows this. His demo may have had another purpose.

Ron

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 28 16:27:15 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 07:27:15 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies choice?
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV8D3563F9F14BBF8379D85AE270@phx.gbl>

With many milongas having a lot more women than men, the men feeling under
pressure to dance with all but ending dancing with their friends and
favourites, how should the women who are missing out get a dance?  One
suggestion was that there could be a few tandas of ladies choice.  On the
other hand, some men in particular even here in Australia would object to
this vocally (and rudely), saying it is not the Argentinean thing to do for
a woman to ask a man.  However, I think the last point is made by men who
need to assert their control over women and as an excuse not to dance with
certain women: e.g. older, beginners, strangers. No I don't want to hear
women should learn to lead so they can get a dance.  That is fine practicing
if you are in to that and don't have issues (some women do apparently).




From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Oct 31 16:47:41 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:47:41 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
Message-ID: <20081031.134741.14083.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>

When I went to Buenos Aires one fact I noticed was that, on the 
average, tango dancers there were not nearly as good as those in the 
places where I had danced in the US.

I thought about this quite a bit after I returned home.  Finally I 
realized why the difference in quality.

The key is that phrase "on the average."  The situation in Argentina is 
unique - the tango there is genuinely popular.  Elsewhere it is a niche 
phenomena, drawing a lot of very dedicated people who work hard and 
long to be better.  And in recent years that means not just physically 
but also better in other ways.

In Bs As there are, as of a few months back, more than a 160 milongas - 
ten to twenty times the number of those in other large metro areas in 
the rest of the world.  Plus the milongas are often much larger.

Thus there is a much larger range of dancers.  Those that are good are 
very very good, in all ways.  Not just in athleticism and body control, 
but in feeling and interpreting the music and making the dance 
experience special.  And there are many who are mediocre, and some who 
can barely dance the tango at all.  Or who go to dance the non-tango 
tandas, usually swing and "tropical" (meaning latin dances except for 
salsa, which has its own large fan universe in Bs As).

There are also plenty of people who go but do not dance any dance at 
all.  Some go just to listen to tango music, which is an important 
musical and poetic art form on Argentina, whereas in the rest of the 
world for many if not most it is just an excuse to dance.  Some go to 
socialize.  Most likely they live within walking distance of the 
milonga.  They snack, smoke, and gossip, and watch the crazy foreign 
tango fanatics with amusement - if they bother to watch them at all.

In this forum there has been much discussion about the different styles 
of tango dancing.  Many tango dancers in Argentina specialize in one 
style or another, and are contempuous of those who dance a style they 
themselves do not dance.  That is human nature.  But many are 
comfortable with more than one style.  In the large and varied tango 
venue in Bs As most people have long been exposed to all the styles.  
It is all tango to them.

There has also been much talk in this forum about the milongueros and 
how tango is dying in Argentina as the elders die out.  This is utter 
crap.  It ignores all the younger people who have been taking up tango.  
Some do it because of a parent or grandparent or other relative gets 
them interested and nurtures their interest.  But tango is quite 
capable of grabbing people - young and otherwise - who have no family 
or friends to help them get interested.

In forums like these it is natural to assume that young people will be 
drawn to tango nuevo and ignore or abandon other and earlier styles.  
And certainly there is truth to that.  But it is a limited truth.  Each 
tango style has its appeal and advantages.  What is certain about young 
people is that they are more willing to try, and often learn, several 
different styles.  And to use a style that suits the situation.  When 
the milonga is tight, and some of the young-people's milongas are VERY 
tight, they will use one of the compact styles.  And when the evening 
nears its end and the floor becomes loose, they will use one of the 
looser styles.

Thus the average quality of tango dancer in Bs As is less than the 
quality elsewhere.  But that is all to the good.  It means we non-
Argentines can go there confident that there is a place even for those 
of us who are not especially good.

And there is the chance to see dance, and to take lessons from, the 
very best tango dancers on the planet.  Look for them on the tight 
dance floors.  They may be very old, or very young, not even in their 
teens yet.  Look for the ones who are like fish in water, sliding 
easily and quietly through the crowd, not seeming to do anything 
special.  Then look for the same ones the hour before dawn, when the 
floor empties out, and these quiet fish spread their iridescent fins 
for all to see.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


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