From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Sat Nov  1 16:16:21 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:16:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Jaime, from Washington DC?
Message-ID: <8CB0A75D75DE977-238-208B@WEBMAIL-MA20.sysops.aol.com>

I am coming to visit Washington again, and realized I lost your e-mail 
somehow......can you send it to me again?

thanks
barbra

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  4 18:20:38 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Jaime, from Washington DC?
Message-ID: <930647.74793.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6VJ2yDncM
  Some Salon Tango by Jorge Firpo
  I like the musicality and fluent moves in this dance.
  It really does look completely improvised.
  The lead is wearing only an undershirt yet it all comes out
  so elegant in the wash.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6VJ2yDncM

       

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Wed Nov  5 16:59:06 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:59:06 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] From: Mario Re: Firpo
Message-ID: <4911A6AA.14416.5D5A21@flame.2xtreme.net>

This video was shot at the Escuela Argentina de Tango at the Galerias 
Pacifico in El Centro where Firpo teaches. He's demonstrating the power of 
pausing (probably after a class with that theme) with what looks like a 
student from the class.
I was fortunate to have taken classes from Firpo there. He's a great dancer 
and teacher!

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  5 23:04:43 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:04:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] From: Mario Re: Firpo
Message-ID: <929553.58262.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I've also taken classes with Jorge Firpo and, while he's very good and 
a lot of fun, it's a huge stretch to classify him as 'a?great dancer and 
teacher'.

For my taste, he over-emphasises the importance of embellishments
for both man and lady.

I prefer to keep things more simple and elegant. But I'd certainly go
back to his classes. His ex-wife Aurora Lubiz is also excellent and
teaches at the same school. I would also add that Escuela Argentina 
de Tango is a great school in general for anyone looking for group 
classes. Lots of high-quality teachers at 3 different locations around 
the city. And continuous classes daily from around mid-day to 10.00pm.
?
Jack, HK



----- Original Message ----
> From: "flame at 2xtreme.net" <flame at 2xtreme.net>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 5:59:06 AM
> Subject: [Tango-L] From: Mario Re: Firpo
> 
> This video was shot at the Escuela Argentina de Tango at the Galerias 
> Pacifico in El Centro where Firpo teaches. He's demonstrating the power of 
> pausing (probably after a class with that theme) with what looks like a 
> student from the class.
> I was fortunate to have taken classes from Firpo there. He's a great dancer 
> and teacher!
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      



From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Thu Nov  6 13:54:47 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:54:47 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] tango-l messages
Message-ID: <8CB0E584636C659-A30-1CAC@MBLK-M35.sysops.aol.com>

for some reason, I am not getting any Tango-L messages, only Tango-A - 
I checked my spam filter and there's nothing there.....could it be that 
folks are not writing, or did I get unsubscribed somehow?

b

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!

From cbiles at thesentientgroup.com  Thu Nov  6 17:20:47 2008
From: cbiles at thesentientgroup.com (Christine Biles)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:20:47 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] tango-l messages
References: <8CB0E584636C659-A30-1CAC@MBLK-M35.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2E7C684C292A3B48B1E30747023E9F600E79D4@TSG-DC-03.sydney.thesentientgroup.com>

I too am no longer receiving Tango-L messages. Last received Sun 26
October from Cherie.

Christine

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf
Of buffmilonguera at aol.com
Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 5:55 AM
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] tango-l messages

for some reason, I am not getting any Tango-L messages, only Tango-A - 
I checked my spam filter and there's nothing there.....could it be that 
folks are not writing, or did I get unsubscribed somehow?

b

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
-- 
Message  protected by MailGuard: e-mail anti-virus, anti-spam and
content filtering.
http://www.mailguard.com.au




From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  6 19:02:59 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:02:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] tango-l messages
In-Reply-To: <2E7C684C292A3B48B1E30747023E9F600E79D4@TSG-DC-03.sydney.thesentientgroup.com>
Message-ID: <220547.8205.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


I occasionally find that the posts take several days to reach by in-box.  If in doubt, you can always check the Tango-l achives to see what's been sent.  I know there's a more official one, but here's the link I have in my favorites.

http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/


 > 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu
> [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of buffmilonguera at aol.com

> 
> for some reason, I am not getting any Tango-L messages,
> only Tango-A - 
> I checked my spam filter and there's nothing
> there.....could it be that 
> folks are not writing, or did I get unsubscribed somehow?
> 



      

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu Nov  6 20:01:44 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:01:44 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] tango-l messages
In-Reply-To: <8CB0E584636C659-A30-1CAC@MBLK-M35.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB0E584636C659-A30-1CAC@MBLK-M35.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <49139378.9070906@ruby.plala.or.jp>

buffmilonguera at aol.com wrote:
> for some reason, I am not getting any Tango-L messages, only Tango-A - 
> I checked my spam filter and there's nothing there.....could it be that 
> folks are not writing, or did I get unsubscribed somehow?
>
>   
There are no messages. I just said to a friend yesterday, almost all 
tango-l posters have left and Mario is still posting his youtube links. 
Like beating an almost dead horse.


From marqcertz at yahoo.com.au  Fri Nov  7 00:23:48 2008
From: marqcertz at yahoo.com.au (marquerito tjanos)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:23:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

interesting observation. i just want to add my 10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are drawn to tango these days. as larry has observed, though some of them are drawn to tango nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more than 90% i would say) of young people, they enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways they dance their tango are very varied too. some open embrace, some close embrace, some milonguero style. but if you look at the large successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso, Escuela at Galeria Pacifico,?most of the teachers are just teaching good solid tango, good technique, good postures etc.
and aurora lubiz is a great teacher!
M
?


      Find your perfect match today at the new Yahoo!7 Dating. Get Started http://au.dating.yahoo.com/?cid=53151&pid=1012

From nina at earthnet.net  Fri Nov  7 01:40:59 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:40:59 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>

It doesn't really matter what people are 
teaching.  It is much more important what people 
are learning.  If the teacher is teaching really 
good stuff, but the people are trapped in their 
bodies and can't make it move (meaning they are 
not controlling their bodies but their bodies are 
controlling them), nothing will help other than 
some coordination training away from tango.  Soccer might be good.

What makes someone a good dancer?  The right 
attitude!  Foreigners don't have it. (Sorry, 
folks...)  Yup, black and white 
generalization.  Exceptions are not important for 
this discussion.The simplre reason that the 
foreigners don't have the right attitude (in 
their own land or in BsAs) is that they have 
different expectations of their tango experience 
than the Argentines do.  That's why many 
Argentine dancers that don't have as a refined 
technique as some foregners do, are much better dancers.

Fourteen years ago, tango nuevo was called 
nuevo.  So what could be another alternative name 
for "tango nuevo" that is not "nuevo" 
anymore?  When does the term "nuevo" expire?  It 
is not quite old yet, or antique, just a little 
worn :)  Maybe now, after so many years, it 
should be called "tango nuevo polvoriento".  That 
would free up the term "tango nuevo" for something really new.

Nina

At 10:23 PM 11/6/2008, marquerito tjanos wrote:
>interesting observation. i just want to add my 
>10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are 
>drawn to tango these days. as larry has 
>observed, though some of them are drawn to tango 
>nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the 
>golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X 
>and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more 
>than 90% i would say) of young people, they 
>enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways 
>they dance their tango are very varied too. some 
>open embrace, some close embrace, some 
>milonguero style. but if you look at the large 
>successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso, 
>Escuela at Galeria Pacifico,? most of the 
>teachers are just teaching good solid tango, 
>good technique, good postures etc. and aurora 
>lubiz is a great teacher! M ?        Find your 
>perfect match today at the new Yahoo!7 Dating. 
>Get Started 
>http://au.dating.yahoo.com/?cid=53151&pid=1012 
>_______________________________________________ 
>Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu 
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From clif at clifdavis.com  Fri Nov  7 02:07:48 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:07:48 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>

I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
become nauseated. 
Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish. 

Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars. 

The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style
as possible. Not just the people in some far away place. 

Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves. 

Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
anyone in Argentina. 

Clif, from China.



From nina at earthnet.net  Fri Nov  7 09:39:18 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:39:18 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>
	<006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>

Clif,

Nausea is a good thing.  It tells you that there might be something 
to look at inside yourself that might need your attention.  Perhaps 
the envy of the divine?:)

I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They 
pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and 
can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and 
know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about 
it.   It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as 
good as Argentines, or even better!".  At what?  Moves?  Yes, of 
course!  Feeling?  No.  Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the 
BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the 
evidence.   The quality of these milongas is distinctly different 
from milongas where only Argentines are present, without 
exceptions.  The quality of dance is difference also.

Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept 
their inferiorities.  I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will 
never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.

BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers' 
should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)

Best,

Nina


At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
>I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
>become nauseated.
>Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
>
>Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
>dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
>for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
>not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
>dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
>
>The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
>None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style
>as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
>
>Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
>bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
>with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
>
>Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
>anyone in Argentina.
>
>Clif, from China.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From clif at clifdavis.com  Fri Nov  7 10:24:49 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:24:49 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>	<006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <007c01c940ec$fde8c600$f9ba5200$@com>

Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar.
Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is
amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked
at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it
because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor?
Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so
which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it
from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true
Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that
"only Argentines" can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to
back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is
putting everyone else down. 

Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see
your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 "true" tangos is your
specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't
that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really
special and back lead?

Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of
dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom
and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as
you has a book in the offing.

Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know,
they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am
sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough.

Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun.

Clif

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Nina Pesochinsky
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla at juno.com)

Clif,

Nausea is a good thing.  It tells you that there might be something 
to look at inside yourself that might need your attention.  Perhaps 
the envy of the divine?:)

I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They 
pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and 
can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and 
know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about 
it.   It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as 
good as Argentines, or even better!".  At what?  Moves?  Yes, of 
course!  Feeling?  No.  Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the 
BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the 
evidence.   The quality of these milongas is distinctly different 
from milongas where only Argentines are present, without 
exceptions.  The quality of dance is difference also.

Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept 
their inferiorities.  I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will 
never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.

BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers' 
should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)

Best,

Nina


At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
>I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
>become nauseated.
>Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
>
>Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
>dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
>for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
>not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
>dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
>
>The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
>None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their
style
>as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
>
>Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
>bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
>with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
>
>Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
>anyone in Argentina.
>
>Clif, from China.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From nina at earthnet.net  Fri Nov  7 10:51:25 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:51:25 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <007c01c940ec$fde8c600$f9ba5200$@com>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>
	<006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>
	<007c01c940ec$fde8c600$f9ba5200$@com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20081107084848.01af9978@earthnet.net>

Cliff, you are right!

Best,

Nina


At 08:24 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
>Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar.
>Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is
>amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked
>at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it
>because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor?
>Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so
>which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it
>from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true
>Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that
>"only Argentines" can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to
>back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is
>putting everyone else down.
>
>Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see
>your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 "true" tangos is your
>specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't
>that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really
>special and back lead?
>
>Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of
>dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom
>and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as
>you has a book in the offing.
>
>Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know,
>they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am
>sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough.
>
>Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun.
>
>Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM
>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla at juno.com)
>
>Clif,
>
>Nausea is a good thing.  It tells you that there might be something
>to look at inside yourself that might need your attention.  Perhaps
>the envy of the divine?:)
>
>I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They
>pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and
>can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and
>know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about
>it.   It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim "We are as
>good as Argentines, or even better!".  At what?  Moves?  Yes, of
>course!  Feeling?  No.  Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the
>BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the
>evidence.   The quality of these milongas is distinctly different
>from milongas where only Argentines are present, without
>exceptions.  The quality of dance is difference also.
>
>Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept
>their inferiorities.  I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will
>never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are.
>
>BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers'
>should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :)
>
>Best,
>
>Nina
>
>
>At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote:
> >I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I
> >become nauseated.
> >Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish.
> >
> >Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the
> >dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant
> >for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's
> >not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar
> >dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars.
> >
> >The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style.
> >None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their
>style
> >as possible. Not just the people in some far away place.
> >
> >Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of
> >bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance
> >with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves.
> >
> >Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as
> >anyone in Argentina.
> >
> >Clif, from China.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Tango-L mailing list
> >Tango-L at mit.edu
> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  7 11:48:13 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:48:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
Message-ID: <379296.3456.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A recent Milonga video from Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
what's going on here?..is there a line of dance? 
Is this Tango music?
How do they reserve space to dance and what
goes on if the tempo increases? ..is there a 
'no kick' agreement?
Will this catch on do you think? 
Is this happening in your town?
Suggestions for what to call it???? thks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo


      

From tango.society at gmail.com  Fri Nov  7 12:36:33 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:36:33 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <379296.3456.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <379296.3456.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340811070936o1cd4e58dh9b840f8ce808bc9e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> A recent Milonga video from Germany
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
> what's going on here?

Mostly tango fastasia elements

..is there a line of dance?

At the out edge of the floor there is, less so in the middle

> Is this Tango music?

No. The people dancing are mostly ignoring the music anyway.

> How do they reserve space to dance and what
> goes on if the tempo increases? ..is there a
> 'no kick' agreement?

You will have to contact the milonga organizer for answers to these questions

> Will this catch on do you think?

Where have you been? This is not confined to Germany. It is
characteristic of many milongas in the US as well.

> Is this happening in your town?

Unfortunately, yes, way too much of the same, and it is very popular.

> Suggestions for what to call it?

In the US it is often called an Alternative Milonga. I would prefer
that people hosting these events find a different name for it, maybe
"Nuevilonga".

Ron

From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  7 15:09:00 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:09:00 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot (larrynla@juno.com)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>
References: <mailman.880.1225556777.3778.tango-l@mit.edu>	<498238.19862.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<7.0.1.0.1.20081106232031.01b8eff8@earthnet.net>	<006901c940a7$90b2c1c0$b2184540$@com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081107072433.01b08680@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV4954BCBDA7A6EA9C1548CAE190@phx.gbl>

Do trolls dance?

Only if they are Argentinean I guess.


>I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list.  They 
>pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and 
>can't accept their own inferiority.  Or maybe they do accept it and 
>know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about 
>it.   



From ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar  Fri Nov  7 16:42:19 2008
From: ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar (Maria Olivera)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 18:42:19 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <379296.3456.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <379296.3456.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c94121$b7513ad0$25f3b070$@com.ar>

I would call it a place where people are dancing some "tango related"
movements, with some "tango related" music, but that's certainly not a
"milonga" in the strict meaning of that word. 

In my opinion, tango communities should start to distinguish the meaning of
the words, not just because some people are embracing one another and moving
their legs coordinately that means they are dancing Tango. Tango is not only
a sportive way of moving our bodies, but a culture that has more than 100
years of existence and its own traditions and limits, which are given by a
sense of sharing, not only sharing the dance with our partners, but sharing
the space with all the other attendants, if that lacks, then it's hard to
believe that we're respecting what many generations of dancers, musicians,
composers and teachers have been trying to build throughout the years.

Warmes regards to all of you!

Mar?a
www.tangosalon.com.ar
-----Mensaje original-----
De: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] En nombre de
Mario
Enviado el: viernes, 07 de noviembre de 2008 01:48 p.m.
Para: tango-l at mit.edu
Asunto: [Tango-L] What's going on here?

A recent Milonga video from Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
what's going on here?..is there a line of dance? 
Is this Tango music?
How do they reserve space to dance and what
goes on if the tempo increases? ..is there a 
'no kick' agreement?
Will this catch on do you think? 
Is this happening in your town?
Suggestions for what to call it???? thks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo


      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From antonst at alidas.com.au  Fri Nov  7 17:41:43 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 08:41:43 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot
In-Reply-To: <2BA0A7E72F104EE29E81BAFD97E37CF4@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF788@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

In my opinion there are many folks who dance tango that really don't
know the difference between having sex and making love. And if they
don't, they really don't understand tango. And anyone that thinks that
I'm really talking about intercourse, don't understand either.
Every day I see people on the floor treating tango as just an activity,
whereas I believe tango is an emotional experience. In my opinion it's
not about steps or routines or impeccable technique, it's about the
brief union of two people. I feel sorry for tango dancers that can't
experience it. So much of the tango codec in Buenos Aires contributes to
it. We ignore it at our loss.

Anton



_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l




From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  7 19:22:43 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 00:22:43 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] what's going on here?
Message-ID: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
 
 
IMO this is a nice small group of tango dancers, moving to the beat of alternative music.  
It is a rather monotonous music that renders the dance itself monotonous.
 
The main problem is that when you use alternative music the "feeling" changes, the tango choreographic moves are there but adapted to a music that (in this particular case)  is devoid of the variations of the "real" tango music. It is a music that lacks the dynamic changes of tango, the slow moments (adagios), the pauses, the fast moments (variaciones).
 
 The instruments coming to the forestage for a short time, to immediately go back to allow another one to show up and answer.  
 
Tango is like a river that flows and meanders in the plains, becomes strong and fast in the mountains; at times runs very slowly in a pool of clear water, at
certain moments becomes dramatic, running under the thunder of stormy weather to finaly precipitate itself into the open arms of the ocean.
 
 
Summary: the whole activity lacks the dynamic changes that are characteristic of Argentine Tango. 
 
A rumba choreography would adjust better to this type of music.
 
We, on the other hand should not be dogmatic, perhaps this same group of good dancers dance differently to classical tango music, the same as we do.
 
This might be a moment when they decided to use this type of music for a different type of enjoyment of the dance, a moment of hypnotic calm.
 
Most milogueros dance differently even to the different tango orchestras. 
 
Who knows? 
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_112008

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Nov  7 19:51:44 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:51:44 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] what's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370811071651j2d3d4e67se278e99dc59e972@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
>
> IMO this is a nice small group of tango dancers, moving to the beat of alternative music.
> It is a rather monotonous music that renders the dance itself monotonous.

     I agree, that is precisely the problem with most neo-tango music.
 It serves very nicely as intriguing background sound in a plush,
dimly lit cocktail lounge, but I very soon get bored dancing to it.

Huck

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  7 20:29:24 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] what's going on here?
References: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>
	<ecf43f370811071651j2d3d4e67se278e99dc59e972@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <837447.87451.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My way of seeing this:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo)

One thing I like about this context for dancing
is the backdrop character of the music. 

This music is not danced (tango music is 
danced) -- it provides a channel, a basis, 
an opportunity to amplify a mood. And 
then that mood is danced out in a very 
personal way, just as the amplified mood 
is a very personal matter.

Another point about this music is that,
for me, it has an equalizing effect on 
dancing partners in a sense that allows 
both partners to fully and simultaneously 
create. It presents an enormous 
playground for improvisation.

In other words,  when it is danced 
well (I have a long way to go, but desire to 
get there), it allows for a continuous 
change of traditional "roles" and thus the 
product, the whole spectrum of dance 
sensations,  is co-creative. Very, very 
different from classic tango dancing. 

As a mater of fact, if you dance to this 
music in a classic way, you will almost 
certainly get bored quickly. But venture 
into co-creation and you will be amazed by 
the whole new set of sensations. Certainly,
some of the "classic" sensations are
"out the window" too. Hence, you gain 
some and you lose some.

Of course, the classic tango is in a way 
co-creative as well, but with the "roles" 
very defined and maintained throughout the 
dance, with very few exceptions.

I am sure there are those on this list who see
this in a very different light. I hope we realize
that we should not be seeking "the truth" 
about it, but are simply sharing our own 
attitude about it which can not be right or 
wrong - it is very personal.

Finally, should this be called tango? I do not
really care and do not wish to discuss at all.

There is more to be said about it, but I am 
afraid the message size limit would then 
reject the post

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 10:42:31 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:42:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
Message-ID: <110755.41894.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

What's the big deal here and why even post this question?
It's just a group of people enjoying their Tango; no more, 
no less. OK, they're not experts, but so what?

Mario, I've noticed this tendency in you before. You show 
all the signs of becoming a first-class Tango snob.

Jack



> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> 
> A recent Milonga video from Germany
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
> what's going on here?..



      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 12:33:13 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 09:33:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <110755.41894.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <466936.40402.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Chill, Jack.  I don't think Mario expressed anything too differently than what others have said in the past/present about such videos.  It's good that he is questioning.  Much better than the dogma that so many people espouse.  

Others have presented thoughts that I have, so I'll just add one.  If a beginner who has learned the 8CB goes to a milonga and does his one step over and over again regardless of what the music says, are you willing to tell him "that's not tango"?  In the video, I simply saw less experienced dancers doing their version of tango.  Learning tango comes in phases.  Some of these people are still in the "step" phase and haven't learned yet to really hear the music.  That would have been me about 7 years ago.  Something tells me that the people in the video will one day get past that phase, just like I did.  But insulting people isn't the way to do it.  Educating them is.

Trini de Pittsburgh



?


--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 10:42 AM
> What's the big deal here and why even post this
> question?
> It's just a group of people enjoying their Tango; no
> more, 
> no less. OK, they're not experts, but so what?
> 
> Mario, I've noticed this tendency in you before. You
> show 
> all the signs of becoming a first-class Tango snob.
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> > 
> > A recent Milonga video from Germany
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
> > what's going on here?..
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 14:51:31 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:51:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <6E12F94F128444CA9CA8E8BA1BD093B2@turboxPC>
Message-ID: <830631.33794.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Nikos Dalamagkas <nikdal at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but what about if you see this in a milonga and all the
> people there
> dancing this way, after some years?
> Moreover they think this is tango, and they are advanced.
> 


But you don't know that about this particular group of people at this milonga.  So criticizing them in such a public forum as this is unfair. 

A community is only so good as the people that run them - the organizers and the teachers.  Criticize the teachers and the organizers, not the students.  Those who put themselves out there publicly, such as teachers, are fair game to be evaluated.  But not those who are innocently dancing and have no idea that they would be posted on the internet.

The other reality is that people do have lives outside of tango.  (I should hope that everyone does.)  Everyone decides for themselves what level they wish to attain.  And the real factor, when it comes down to it, is what does their partner think.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Sat Nov  8 15:01:07 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:01:07 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <466936.40402.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <466936.40402.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4915F003.3030501@tangobar-productions.com>

What I saw was a somewhat typical milonga scene in a small new-ish 
community. Line of dance is pretty well observed, no clashes. It looked 
like everyone had studied only with the same teacher, and had learned 
"steps".That doesn't mean that the teacher taught only steps, he or she 
could be teaching tango and the students only paid attention to what 
they were looking for, e.g. steps.  The dancing lacks emotion and 
musicality, perhaps because the music is not tango. The general skill 
level isn't bad, and with more experience and the introduction of a 
variety of teachers and approaches, plus good music these folks will 
probably do very nicely.

Is my attitude snobbish? probably :-)

Barbara in Puerto Vallarta

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

>Chill, Jack.  I don't think Mario expressed anything too differently than what others have said in the past/present about such videos.  It's good that he is questioning.  Much better than the dogma that so many people espouse.  
>
>Others have presented thoughts that I have, so I'll just add one.  If a beginner who has learned the 8CB goes to a milonga and does his one step over and over again regardless of what the music says, are you willing to tell him "that's not tango"?  In the video, I simply saw less experienced dancers doing their version of tango.  Learning tango comes in phases.  Some of these people are still in the "step" phase and haven't learned yet to really hear the music.  That would have been me about 7 years ago.  Something tells me that the people in the video will one day get past that phase, just like I did.  But insulting people isn't the way to do it.  Educating them is.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's going on here?
>>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>>Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 10:42 AM
>>What's the big deal here and why even post this
>>question?
>>It's just a group of people enjoying their Tango; no
>>more, 
>>no less. OK, they're not experts, but so what?
>>
>>Mario, I've noticed this tendency in you before. You
>>show 
>>all the signs of becoming a first-class Tango snob.
>>
>>Jack
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>A recent Milonga video from Germany
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
>>>what's going on here?..
>>>      
>>>
>>      
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Tango-L mailing list
>>Tango-L at mit.edu
>>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>    
>>
>
>
>      
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1775 - Release Date: 11/8/2008 9:56 AM
>
>  
>


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 16:51:17 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:51:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] A walk to die for!
Message-ID: <337565.6637.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Catch Cacho Dante walking Tango in this video. If I could do nothing but walk like this
I would be quite happy and so would my partner. This guy really listens and feels it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
I'm sure glad that I made and saved many playlists on YouTube while I was watching
Tango for four hours a day thru my first year at this (User: Nacotete). I'm now in my 13th month andI have all these great examples to watch and learn from. It's like I'm seeing them forthe first time..truly seeing them..what changed? After a full year and a month, I began
to clearly distinguish between my right and left foot and between the right and left foot 
of my partner....to what do I owe this? I think some Nuevo classes that I took in Phila.
http://philadelphiatangoschool.com/teachers.htm
They taught complicated stuff that I'll never use on a dance floor but there were two things
that got results. First; repeated sequences, over and over, changing partners, doing it again
and again to Tango music...exhausting but it got one beyond 'thinking' about it.?
Second: We started each sequence with 'easy' stuff...and so, the ochos and cross footed
walking and zig zags that I couldn't quite ever get before, became only the intro to the 
difficult stuff and so they too became non-mental and just assimulated....now, all of a 
sudden, I'm seeing what is really going on between partners and I can learn by just watching for a change. 
?Anyway, I'm just catching everyone up on my state of the art...and looking forward to hearing about your's, too!


      

From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  8 18:25:42 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:25:42 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] what's going on here?
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W28A0CCD02D9D85013F17EF97180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV6ED83954ED6B2DD762044AE180@phx.gbl>

A group of people who are enjoying their dance and some enthusiast who wants
to share it with her friends without asking for comment.

As for the music, it is a slow sensual piece, maybe the one tanda of the
evening, maybe the one slow one of a night of neuvo.  


Good dancers who are into this style of music can adapt their Argentine
tango dance to it, just as they can adapt their style to the many kinds of
traditional tango music and schools of dance.


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergio Vandekier
Sent: Saturday, 8 November 2008 11:23 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] what's going on here?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
 
 
IMO this is a nice small group of tango dancers, moving to the beat of
alternative music.  
It is a rather monotonous music that renders the dance itself monotonous.
 
The main problem is that when you use alternative music the "feeling"
changes, the tango choreographic moves are there but adapted to a music that
(in this particular case)  is devoid of the variations of the "real" tango
music. It is a music that lacks the dynamic changes of tango, the slow
moments (adagios), the pauses, the fast moments (variaciones).
 
 The instruments coming to the forestage for a short time, to immediately go
back to allow another one to show up and answer.  
 
Tango is like a river that flows and meanders in the plains, becomes strong
and fast in the mountains; at times runs very slowly in a pool of clear
water, at
certain moments becomes dramatic, running under the thunder of stormy
weather to finaly precipitate itself into the open arms of the ocean.
 
 
Summary: the whole activity lacks the dynamic changes that are
characteristic of Argentine Tango. 
 
A rumba choreography would adjust better to this type of music.
 
We, on the other hand should not be dogmatic, perhaps this same group of
good dancers dance differently to classical tango music, the same as we do.
 
This might be a moment when they decided to use this type of music for a
different type of enjoyment of the dance, a moment of hypnotic calm.
 
Most milogueros dance differently even to the different tango orchestras. 
 
Who knows? 
 
Best regards, Sergio
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  9 10:56:13 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 07:56:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  A walk to die for!
Message-ID: <6532.31819.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

More on indirect learning...I call it that because I only want to dance close embrace
social dance tango and yet I've improved through taking classes in Nuevo. I know that
the classes were key because I had a small injury and so wasn't going to Milongas nor
practicas at that time..of course, where I was (in my 11th month dancing) may have been
important, too.
Anyway, the partners that I got to dance with at a later Milonga, all said that my lead was
better...on questioning: more confident, sure, clear.? Ok..my nuevo instructors got rid of a
number of little herky-jerky habits that I had formed...like tilting right and left before starting
the walk...like pausing where I shouldn't pause in the ochos..like not pausing where I should pause in the walk to the cross in cross pattern, being sloppy in my direction/orientation..using my right arm..etc.? The classes were like a tumble of events
each piling onto the other as each sequence was practised with different partners..after
several goes with one partner, the teachers would demonstrate a correction?to what?they 
were seeing..yes, we got to see them dance a lot!!? ..and that was inspiring.
?So, the embosques, ganchos, three sacadas in a row while turning, forward ochos, etc.,
I may never do in my close embrace dancing but after going thru all that for four months,
a slow social dance was thoroughly enjoyable and within my abilities. Thanks Andres + Meredith. 
..and now I can look at a walk by Cacho and know that anything is possible..I'm even 
mixing different styles of walk (outside left parallel, etc.) and confident that if I get stuck
I'll find a way to step out and get smoothly flowing again...Tango is great!
?
?


      

From DocDAS at aol.com  Sun Nov  9 11:35:49 2008
From: DocDAS at aol.com (DocDAS@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:35:49 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] I'm Blowing My Nose-Thank You
Message-ID: <c29.468df4cc.36486b65@aol.com>

Hola Tangueros:   
I've been dancing tango for about 10 years  and consider myself and 
considered a very accomplished tanguero. "Oh yeah! I've  heard that before." Well trust 
me ( no the check is not in the mail) or come to  Philadelphia and find out 
for yourself. I thought I had heard all the excuses at  milongas, outside of my 
home town, where you are a stranger in a strange land,  as to why a lady 
turns you down for a dance. But the best ones came recently at  a milonga in NYC 
at Dance Studio 101 hosted by the infamous Jorge Torres.  
The evening started great with a wonderful series  of dances (more than one 
tanda) with charming and talented Latino women. But  then came the topic of 
this E-mail some very unusual and actually humorous  excuses. The first is really 
'Saturday Night Live' material. I approached this  lady sitting on the long 
wooden bench that borders most of the studio and asked  her to dance.  I assure 
you she wasn't blowing her nose at the time I made  my request; but she then 
turned to her handbag pulled out a tissue and simply  said "I'm blowing my 
nose." I was a little surprised; even as a physician, who  is well aware of the 
calls of nature, I wasn't sure if this was a 'No Thank You'  or some secret 
message used to communicate something else at Dance Studio  101. I wasn't 
interested in anything other than dance so on to the next  one.
      I was now prepared for anything. A little  later in the evening I 
approached another women also sitting on the bench. When  I approached her she 
turned toward the large mirror behind the bench. Maybe she  was checking out her 
makeup, hair or whatever. Oh Silly me; when she turned back  in my direction I 
asked her for a dance. "No thank you", she said. "I'm  stretching." I knew 
immediately that my extensive knowledge of Physical Medicine  And Rehabilitation 
could have easy assisted her with her simple isotonic stretch  and helped her 
overall flexibility with some isometric maneuvers but once again  I simply 
wanted to dance Tango!!
     I rethought my moves. Was it the bench, no  impossible. I double checked 
and my fly wasn't open either. A quick look in the  mirror and everything 
appeared to be in its proper place. Ah ha!! The  'cabaceo'!! No, I wasn't in 
Buenos Aires. Breath freshener? No, never had that  problem. A real conundrum for 
sure. 
I did have a few  decent dances that evening but overall found this milonga 
to be one of the more  snobbish and at the same time ridiculous venues.Hope you 
all enjoyed this little  diatribe and please share with me some of your own 
wondrous excuses.
Dr.  Dan       
 
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  9 12:38:32 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:38:32 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] I am blowing my nose
Message-ID: <BAY105-W2A0BC64B6E3E7A9A3901D971B0@phx.gbl>


I find ridiculous that a woman has to use excuses of any kind to refuse to dance with a particular man at a particular moment.
 
Let me see if you can understand it once and for ever: For a tango to be a "tango" at a milonga it has to be wished by both partners.
 
 
The woman has to desire to dance with me and I must desire to dance with her.  I cannot, I should not force her to have to dance with me because the result of that will be a frustrating "no tango", an aberration, a disappointment.
 
So when I am getting ready to dance, my main concern is to find a woman that really wishes to dance with me. 
 
I does not matter where I am, women have an unequivocal way of letting me know whether they are anxious to dance with me or that they do not care to do it.
 
So sit or walk around and observe women's reactions to your presence ; if they look at you, smile, come to talk, pass in front of you several times, those are certain signs that she wants you to ask her to dance.
 
If you look at her and she looks away, or avoids eye contact, or when you walk by, she looks the other way, if you talk to her and she has a serious, indifferent attitude, this means that she does not wish to dance with you. My advice is walk away and do not bother her again.
 
Summary: The milonga has its codes that must be respected. I do not find humorous that a woman is forced to use clumsy excuses to avoid dancing with me. I would not want that dance for anything in the world anyways.
 
The same applies to ladies, you should not force any man to dance with you.
 
Practicas and lessons have different codes.
 
May you dance only with those that you wish to dance with.  Going to a milonga is not a charity ball, it is a place where you go to have fun.  
 
If nobody wishes to dance with you that may mean several things with respect to your dancing skills or physical appearance.
 
You may still enjoy attending the milonga to listen to the music,have a drink, dinner, socialize, etc. or perhaps you should go and take line dance lessons. In line dancing you dance by yourself in the company of others.
 
 
May you dance with those that you are interested in dancing with.
 
Sergio
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
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From rockies at comcast.net  Sun Nov  9 17:48:42 2008
From: rockies at comcast.net (rockies@comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:48:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] I am blowing my nose
Message-ID: <110920082248.20214.491768C9000D474C00004EF622135285730101009B9D@comcast.net>

Thanks for the perspective Sergio. A woman friend of mine (and tango dancer) once said "why would you want to dance with someone who doesn't want to dance with you?" Why indeed? If it's not good for one person, then it's not good for both. Concentrate on those who say yes. I still find that rejections are far fewer than acceptances.  Sergio is right, with a little practice you can tell by body language whether or not a person is interested. If her arms are crossed and she is looking away, not meeting your eyes, well, chances are she does not want to dance with you. If she is facing someone else in conversation, chances are she will not say yes either. If she is facing the dance floor and actively looking around, she's probably receptive to dancing. People always have their own reasons for whatever behaviour they exhibit. I sometimes wish there was more openness on the part of dancers to dancing with someone new, but that's life, and everyone has the right to choose to say yes
  or no
 for whatever their personal reasons are. Some of the reasons for a no may include differing level, attitude (your personality), personal hygiene (lack of), poor dance connection, lack of caring for the womans safety (if you're a bad navigator), lack of musicality, lack of ability to dance in time to the music, simply being tired or having painful feet, or not liking the music, among others. Changing to the positive, for women, I have a guess that it is all about how you make her feel from the experience of dancing, and there are a variety of factors that go into it, but generally you could take the opposite of all the above factors... ie, if you are confident, have good musicality, step with the beat well, feel good in an embrace, have good personal hygiene, are likeable, will protect her on the floor (navigate well) have a good connection, if she observes that other women enjoy dancing with you (or is told so by another woman) she may want to dance with you. Appearance alwa
 ys see
ms to be a factor too. If you look dashing, you may get more dances. Such is life. but there is always someone to dance with, if you wish, and usually someone whom you will wish to dance with yourself. Life is a 2 way street.

Cheers,
Randy


 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> 
> I find ridiculous that a woman has to use excuses of any kind to refuse to dance 
> with a particular man at a particular moment.
>  
> Let me see if you can understand it once and for ever: For a tango to be a 
> "tango" at a milonga it has to be wished by both partners.
>  
>  
> The woman has to desire to dance with me and I must desire to dance with her.  I 
> cannot, I should not force her to have to dance with me because the result of 
> that will be a frustrating "no tango", an aberration, a disappointment.
>  
> So when I am getting ready to dance, my main concern is to find a woman that 
> really wishes to dance with me. 
>  
> I does not matter where I am, women have an unequivocal way of letting me know 
> whether they are anxious to dance with me or that they do not care to do it.
>  
> So sit or walk around and observe women's reactions to your presence ; if they 
> look at you, smile, come to talk, pass in front of you several times, those are 
> certain signs that she wants you to ask her to dance.
>  
> If you look at her and she looks away, or avoids eye contact, or when you walk 
> by, she looks the other way, if you talk to her and she has a serious, 
> indifferent attitude, this means that she does not wish to dance with you. My 
> advice is walk away and do not bother her again.
>  
> Summary: The milonga has its codes that must be respected. I do not find 
> humorous that a woman is forced to use clumsy excuses to avoid dancing with me. 
> I would not want that dance for anything in the world anyways.
>  
> The same applies to ladies, you should not force any man to dance with you.
>  
> Practicas and lessons have different codes.
>  
> May you dance only with those that you wish to dance with.  Going to a milonga 
> is not a charity ball, it is a place where you go to have fun.  
>  
> If nobody wishes to dance with you that may mean several things with respect to 
> your dancing skills or physical appearance.
>  
> You may still enjoy attending the milonga to listen to the music,have a drink, 
> dinner, socialize, etc. or perhaps you should go and take line dance lessons. In 
> line dancing you dance by yourself in the company of others.
>  
>  
> May you dance with those that you are interested in dancing with.
>  
> Sergio
>  
>  
>  
>  
> _________________________________________________________________
> See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your 
> life
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tangopeter at gmx.de  Sun Nov  9 18:35:13 2008
From: tangopeter at gmx.de (Peter Turowski)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:35:13 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] I'm Blowing My Nose-Thank You
References: <c29.468df4cc.36486b65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00eb01c942c3$f891a400$17b2a8c0@PC>

> I've been dancing tango for about 10 years  and consider myself and
> considered a very accomplished tanguero.

1) Try to respect the traditional codes of a milonga, 
    wherever you want to dance  Not only in BsAs.
2) Spend at least another 10 years to become a milonguero.
    This may solve your problems
3) Change your email provider. Milongueros hate AOL...

SCNR
Peter

-- 
Peter Turowski
tangopeter at gmx.de
www.tangopeter.de

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 10 02:48:12 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:48:12 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] I'm Blowing My Nose-Thank You
In-Reply-To: <00eb01c942c3$f891a400$17b2a8c0@PC>
References: <c29.468df4cc.36486b65@aol.com> <00eb01c942c3$f891a400$17b2a8c0@PC>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV93D4A9C66D633A54E5E84AE1A0@phx.gbl>

So every milonga has its own code?



>1) Try to respect the traditional codes of a milonga, 
    wherever you want to dance  Not only in BsAs.


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Mon Nov 10 10:22:27 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:22:27 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] I'm Blowing My Nose-Thank You
In-Reply-To: <c29.468df4cc.36486b65@aol.com>
References: <c29.468df4cc.36486b65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <491851B3.30704@ruby.plala.or.jp>


> I thought I had heard all the excuses at  milongas, outside of my 
> home town, where you are a stranger in a strange land,  as to why a lady 
> turns you down for a dance. But the best ones came recently at  a milonga in NYC 
> at Dance Studio 101 hosted by the infamous Jorge Torres.  
>   
You said it yourself. You are outside our home town, nobody knows you in 
this milonga and moreover you think of their host as "the infamous Jorge 
Torres". Why would you expect the women in there to love you? Maybe they 
noticed how you think about their host that they are about to be fans 
of, mayb your dance style is completely different from Jorge's and the 
rest of them?
I personally love Jorge and think, he is one of the greatest dancers 
around. He was one of the two people who inspired me to start learning 
tango. He is not only thrilling to watch, he also feels wonderful to 
dance with.

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 11:08:48 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:08:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] I'm Blowing My Nose-Thank You
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV93D4A9C66D633A54E5E84AE1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <246552.70044.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

The codes are really just basic instinct.  For example, if you are walking down the street and want to avoid some icky person heading toward you in the opposite direction, you avoid eye contact.  If the person looks okay, you may say nod, smile or offer a greeting as you pass.  

Anyone know of a place where the opposite occurs?  That you make eye contact with someone you want to avoid?  

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> So every milonga has its own code?




      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 12:48:26 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Guided Practica
Message-ID: <216139.11677.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I attended a guided practica in Phila. and thought it a great way to experience
the dance and dance instruction all at the same time.
The instructor was Sridhar of Tangohug dot com.
In my experience, I am not in the mood to attend a full Practica nor Milonga
after an energetic 1 1/2 hour class. So, it's usually one or the other.
This way, I got to experience the dance in it's total reality and had the
added opportunity to get feedback on my form, musicality, etc.
At times, Sridhar would come over to us after a song and a little aside
from the line of dance, show a way to improve our dance. Even when this
happened in the line of dance, the other dancers had no qualms about
simply navigating around the knot of instruction and going on with their
own dance. I've heard that this will be done again in the future and I'm 
enthusiasticly looking forward to it!
I was wondering if anyone in this forum could comment on similar experiences
and maybe tell us something about the proceedures used at their's.
..all comments welcome


      

From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 10 14:27:49 2008
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:27:49 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] The Guided Practica
In-Reply-To: <216139.11677.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <216139.11677.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY118-W3D9ACC7D150E328ECEB4A991A0@phx.gbl>


i call these "practilongas", and think that they are a blast. i actually usually prefer them to milongas, because they are a bit more "easy going".
 
in our area, they are great and we always have alot of fun. the better dancers are really great about "tuning up" everyone who wants to be helped out.
 
dans on
The TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:48:26 -0800> From: sopelote at yahoo.com> To: tango-l at mit.edu> Subject: [Tango-L] The Guided Practica> > I attended a guided practica in Phila. and thought it a great way to experience> the dance and dance instruction all at the same time.> The instructor was Sridhar of Tangohug dot com.> In my experience, I am not in the mood to attend a full Practica nor Milonga> after an energetic 1 1/2 hour class. So, it's usually one or the other.> This way, I got to experience the dance in it's total reality and had the> added opportunity to get feedback on my form, musicality, etc.> At times, Sridhar would come over to us after a song and a little aside> from the line of dance, show a way to improve our dance. Even when this> happened in the line of dance, the other dancers had no qualms about> simply navigating around the knot of instruction and going on with their> own dance. I've heard that this will be done again in the future and I'm > enthusiasticly looking forward to it!> I was wondering if anyone in this forum could comment on similar experiences> and maybe tell us something about the proceedures used at their's.> ..all comments welcome> > > > _______________________________________________> Tango-L mailing list> Tango-L at mit.edu> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
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From tango at tangodesalon.de  Tue Nov 11 05:30:23 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:30:23 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
Message-ID: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>

Thank you Sergio, thanks Trini and all of you.


I find it so very important to make everybody understand, that you  
need to respect the codes of polite behaviour, when you're in a  
Milonga. It's not even about Tango-Codigos, it's just basic  
instinct. ;-)

-You do not invite someone to dance, who avoids eye-contact to you.
-You do not sneek up from behind and surprise him or her.
-You do not interrupt a serious conversation.
-You do not assume, that every person will love to dance with you,  
even when she has never had the chance to see you on the dance floor.
-And, if you happened to "break" this rules: You do not insult  
someone, if this person declines politely to dance with you: nobody  
is OBLIDGED to spend time hugging you.

Unfortunately all of this happened a lot to me during our recent tour  
to the US, even in the "very traditional" Milongas:

I am used to being invited by the Cabezeo/Mirada and I rarely accept  
a direct invitation out of several reasons: Very often I am just  
tired after a day of classes or I have not seen the person dance yet,  
so I avoid eye contact. Or I am doing something else, like resting  
between two tandas and drinking a glass of wine or talking to  
someone. Or of course, I just don't want to dance with this person.  
So, if I get invited in such a case, I decline very politely and  
always with a smile. I do not want to hurt anybody.

But: Apart from being forced to decline direct invitations of  
stangers so extremely often in the US, I got some real rude  
reactions, like an omnious "You made a big mistake", uttered in a  
threatening voice.

Sometimes, things like that happened MULTIPLE times at the same  
Milonga, once even with the SAME person.

And one man (an Argentine!) did something real strange: I was just  
avoiding eye-contact with everybody as I was very tired and this man  
came to my table and asked me. As I had declined already declined  
three (!) direct invitations during this one Tanda, I told him very  
nicely: "Excuse me sir, I'm quite a traditionalist, so I don't accept  
invitations at the table. I'm so sorry." He smiled and stepped some  
meters away and looked at me in a Cabeceo-like-way. I was so stunnd,  
that I accepted his invitation, but later on I was even more surprised.
He told me, that he was an Argentine and uses the Cabeceo on a  
regular basis. But: I had not reacted like the argentine women do:  
they look, if they want to dance with you! So, I asked him, WHAT DOES  
THAT MEAN NOW? THAT I DID NOT WANT TO DANCE WITH YOU!

Unbelievable, but true.
Sometimes, truth is stanger than fiction... ;-)

What can I do?
A friend of NYC recommended me, to speak more about these things  
during classes. We never did this, as we always assumed, that most of  
the people do understand these things instinctively and we do not  
want to bore grown-up-people with sermons about argentinoid-Milonga- 
codigos. But Detlef and I decided to follow our friends advice and  
will try in the future integrate one or two sentences about this  
topic in every class, where it might make sense. And we'll talk about  
this more often to people.

Which I did just now. ;-)

Thanks for listening my sermon.


Have a nice day,


Melina


Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669





From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 11 06:08:24 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:08:24 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
References: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV5E6D3F7E0FA9364C422FDAE150@phx.gbl>

While I try to use the Codigos and often get this bemused look from women
who don't understand it, I think from my observations, people, either
male/leader or female/follower, in Australia are more direct and go up to
the person and ask for a dance. 


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2008 9:30 PM
To: TANGO-L digest system automatic
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes

Thank you Sergio, thanks Trini and all of you.


I find it so very important to make everybody understand, that you  
need to respect the codes of polite behaviour, when you're in a  
Milonga. It's not even about Tango-Codigos, it's just basic  
instinct. ;-)



From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 11:22:46 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:22:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV5E6D3F7E0FA9364C422FDAE150@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <641824.38000.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There are many ways of accepting a dance gracefully, but there are not as many ways to decline a dance gracefully that save both parties from potential embarassment.  That's the point of the cabaceo.  

If there's someone I'd like to dance with but the music isn't right for us, I don't want to tell him "Your DiSarli sucks".  I'll avoid him until a more appropriate music comes on.

Sometimes it might not be a person's dancing.  One time at a milonga, Sean and I had a little argument that left me not wanting to dance at all.   Do you think I wanted to explain that to the guys who asked me later to dance?  It was much easier for me to just avoid eye contact.

Going up to someone and asking for a dance can be fine.  Good friends of mine (people I've invited to my house socially) ask all the time, as do I with them.  That's fine because we feel comfortable being honest with each other if neither of us want to dance at a particular time.  We don't need to make excuses with each other.

For everyone else, it's the cabaceo that helps us avoid making up excuses and embarrassing anyone.

Trini de Pittsburgh



--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:

> While I try to use the Codigos and often get this bemused
> look from women
> who don't understand it, I think from my observations,
> people, either
> male/leader or female/follower, in Australia are more
> direct and go up to
> the person and ask for a dance. 



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 11:36:39 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:36:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
References: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
Message-ID: <996705.16836.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Melina,

Thanks for the common-sense advice on how to behave in the 
milongas - at least, you would think it?is common sense :-).

And thanks for your anecdotes of milongas in the USA. Yes, 
I believe you. My partner and I have lived long, full lives both in 
the world of dance and in business. One thing we agree on is 
that Tango does seem to attract some very, very?strange people. 
Certainly far more than the law of averages would suggest. 
I have no idea why.

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango at tangodesalon.de>
> 
> Unbelievable, but true.
> Sometimes, truth is stanger than fiction.... ;-)
> 



      



From donnay at donnay.net  Tue Nov 11 11:39:25 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:39:25 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose
In-Reply-To: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
References: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
Message-ID: <72B51B5019A74486B8AA100E7EFB1A55@gatewaylaptop>

I'm not saying this to anyone personally, but I think it's good to remember that even if 
you have been dancing for 3 years, 4 years, 8 years or even 20 years, that does not mean 
that you have improved, or even retained your skills. Even if you are a teacher. I'm sure 
everyone on this list has unfortunately seen this - a former favorite partner, or a dancer 
you looked up to, just doesn't have it anymore. Maybe they took some time off for personal 
reasons, maybe they decided they were so good they no longer needed lessons, maybe their 
ego has gotten to them, maybe they only dance with one or two people who always correct 
their problems, maybe the ratio in their town means that people always compliment them, 
because no one wants to sit all evening, maybe they've gotten ahead of themselves and are 
doing complicated moves too advanced for their skills - there's a long list!

I always remember, if some of your partners are praising you, it does not mean you are a 
good dancer. The punishment for honesty can be swift and lasting, and no one wants to be 
labeled a bitch. In Buenos Aires, women are brutally honest. Here, I have been "boycotted" 
for years because I told the truth. (Ironically, whenever I have done this, it has boosted 
the will of that man to get better - "I'll fix her! I'm going to get really good, and then 
never dancing with her again!!" See how I sacrifice for my community??)

Tango needs constant vigilance to stay good. One of my students asked "When do I graduate?" 
You don't. I try to find someone who will be honest with me. Then, most important, I buck 
up and listen.

I'll be in BA Saturday - email me if you are there also!

Loisa Donnay
Minneapolis, MN 


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Tue Nov 11 12:13:51 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:13:51 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose
In-Reply-To: <72B51B5019A74486B8AA100E7EFB1A55@gatewaylaptop>
References: <14164E02-4068-417D-9A81-49FC6FD703FD@tangodesalon.de>
	<72B51B5019A74486B8AA100E7EFB1A55@gatewaylaptop>
Message-ID: <4919BD4F.5090203@ruby.plala.or.jp>


>  Here, I have been "boycotted" 
> for years because I told the truth. (Ironically, whenever I have done this, it has boosted 
> the will of that man to get better - "I'll fix her! I'm going to get really good, and then 
> never dancing with her again!!" See how I sacrifice for my community??)
>
> Strange, when I have done that, I usually got something like "I don't need to listen to you, there is a bunch of beginners eating their heart out to dance with me, and they are all Japanese and don't talk back". And that was that, usually... How do you do it, Lois? ; )

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 12:57:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
Message-ID: <997042.94921.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

??? They don't come any 'stranger' than you, Jack.
?
"?One thing we agree on is that Tango does seem to attract some very, very?strange people. 
Certainly far more than the law of averages would suggest. 
I have no idea why."? - Strange Jack



      

From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Nov 11 13:39:09 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:39:09 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <997042.94921.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <997042.94921.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081111113909.64701wp88ez0y6hw@webmail.earthnet.net>

So maybe a good cortina for some of the milongas outside of BsAs could  
be a great song by the Doors "People are Strange":)

"People are strange
When you're a stranger,
Faces look ugly
when you're alone.
Women are wicked
when you're unwanted,
streets are unhaven
when you're down.
When faces come out of the rain
When you strange
No one remembers your name
When you strange."


Quoting Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>:

> ??? They don't come any 'stranger' than you, Jack.
> ?
> "?One thing we agree on is that Tango does seem to attract some  
> very, very?strange people.
> Certainly far more than the law of averages would suggest.
> I have no idea why."? - Strange Jack
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 14:24:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:24:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] My dream....(another song)
Message-ID: <921756.36864.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

...is to dance, someday, in the streets of La Boca BsAs...good enough to get a few
coins tossed into a hat with which we buy a bottle of Malbec and toast our accomplishment.? 
....care to join me?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tango+en+la+boca&search_type=&aq=f


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 14:30:05 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:30:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Guided Practica
In-Reply-To: <216139.11677.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <769455.24701.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone in this forum could comment on
> similar experiences and maybe tell us something about the proceedures used at their's. ..all comments welcome


For the past 6 years we've had a real practica, not a "practilonga", on a day separate from class day.  It's become a model for the other 2 practicas in town.  We make the point that it is a working practica to encourage the separation between work and play.  We want milongas to be all play, so we've set a completely different tone for practicas.  Anyone at our practica comes prepared for constructive feedback.

We are fortunate to use a spacious, professional dance studio with walls of mirrors, barres, beautiful wooden floors, and a built-in sound system.  As you enter, you will commonly find people simply walking around the room, sometimes in socks.  Along the short wall of mirrors is where people can do their ochos or molinete exercises.  There is a ronda, but those who are working on something specific usually find a spot in the middle.  When they are ready to actually dance, they join in the ronda.

Only good music is played and may or may not be in tandas.  I try to use different music at the practica than I do for a milonga.  Because it is a practica, I tend to use a little more Rodriguez or Canaro and less Troilo so participants can concentrate more on body mechanics.  Music is adjusted as needed.  If a workshop on milonga was just held, for example, I'll announce a straight half-hour of milonga music, so people can practice the material fully.

As for as teaching goes, Sean and I approach people, as do two other teachers.  Beginning students get their turn first.  I may not work with them personally, but I watch to make sure that they get attention from one of us teachers.  Novices also come a lot and we'll teach them the basic walk and embrace.  For intermediates and above, I usually let them do their own thing, unless I see something glaring or if they've asked me something.  I only have time to check on them once every few weeks.  

When I do work with someone, I try to spend at least 15 minutes of quality time with them.  Sometimes it takes half-an-hour.  I trust my more experienced students to help with the new students.  And eventually, those new students will become the experienced students, and so forth.  On occasion I'll stop the music and address everyone about a particular problem or issue.  When the music ends, I'll make any announcements of up coming events.

For me practicas are important in knowing what's happening in the community, moreso than the milongas.  Because it's at the practicas where people are freer to talk, make mistakes, and ask questions.  No excuses necessary.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 14:50:37 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:50:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?D=F6rte_Ricklefsen_y_Ramiro_Gigliotti?=
Message-ID: <260304.51784.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti - Mi Refugio - Di Sarli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
I find it lovely the way that this couple can switch back and forth
close embrace salon and tango nuevo
The first 50 seconds are purely traditional and very instructional to me.
Then they open up the embrace?to do some tastefull 'interesting' nuevo stuff
If this is the direction of the new tango, I could live with it and like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
?


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 15:09:35 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BTango-L=5D_D=F6rte_Ricklefsen_y_Ramiro_Gigliotti?=
In-Reply-To: <260304.51784.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <953347.75766.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Mario, that was salon tango.  No nuevo.  And well-done, I might add.  Nuevo to DiSarli?  Personally, I shudder at the thought.  

Trini

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti - Mi Refugio - Di Sarli
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
> I find it lovely the way that this couple can switch back
> and forth
> close embrace salon and tango nuevo
> The first 50 seconds are purely traditional and very
> instructional to me.
> Then they open up the embrace?to do some tastefull
> 'interesting' nuevo stuff
> If this is the direction of the new tango, I could live
> with it and like it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
> ?
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      


From brick at fastpack.com  Tue Nov 11 15:12:57 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:12:57 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
Message-ID: <ca2c2380811111212q1246f952oe0e5a1adb93b5f7f@mail.gmail.com>

From: Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango at tangodesalon.de>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes

First off Melina, vielen Dank an Sie und Detlef for the wonderful
workshops you gave in Portland. I learned much from you.

>>I find it so very important to make everybody understand, that you
need to respect the codes of polite behaviour, when you're in a
Milonga. It's not even about Tango-Codigos, it's just basic
instinct. ;-)
<snip>
Unfortunately all of this happened a lot to me during our recent tour
to the US, even in the "very traditional" Milongas:<<

While I agree with you in part, I think you may have missed one
important aspect of this.

The LOCAL codes of polite behaviour.

And "basic instict" in social settings isn't really instinct, it is
learned behaviour, so what is acceptable in Germany may not be
acceptable in America, probably won't be acceptable in the Middle
East, and might not be acceptable in BsAs

Many try to abide by the codigos from BsAs in local US milongas
(especially the better and more traveled Tangeuros) and that may work
well in some places, but not so well in others.

Argentine Tango in the USA does not exist in a vacuum.

It exists within the context of American culture, and more
specifically American Dance Culture. American Dance Culture teaches
that if someone attending a dance, they want to dance, so it is OK to
ask them. It teaches that it is acceptable for women to ask men. And
it teaches that it is rude to refuse a dance, after all "it is only 3
minutes."

Americans may be unpopular around the world, though less so this week
than last, but there is nothing wrong with Americans (or anyone else)
acting like Americans while in America.

Your story about the rude Argentine is not surprising. I don't know
his history, but he may have simply been following the advice  "When
in Rome, do as the Romans do," and he never would have acted that way
in BsAs.

I most always use the Cabeceo, especially at a festival or visiting a
community new to me, but sometimes even following the Codigos in the
USA can be perceived as being rude.

For example: I was recently chastised by a woman for not asking her to
dance.  I explained to her that she was most always intensely watching
the dance floor, so I could never catch her eye to ask yer. She told
me that in that case, I should have walked up to her, tapped her on
the shoulder to get her attention, and then asked her to dance!

Brick Robbins
San Diego, CA
http://www.sandiegotangofestival.com/

From rockies at comcast.net  Tue Nov 11 16:46:08 2008
From: rockies at comcast.net (rockies@comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:46:08 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose
Message-ID: <111120082146.28531.4919FD1F000F11F200006F7322069997350101009B9D@comcast.net>

A wise friend once said 'why would you want to dance with someone who doesn't want to dance with you?' We are better off concentrating on those who do want to dance with us.

There are myriad reasons why someone may not want to dance with someone else, but you're better off to just accept that there will be some who don't want to dance with you, just as there may be some whom you don't want to dance with. North Americans have a problem with directness, and I often wish we could simply receive constructive feedback without being hurt over it. Tango is hard on the ego. Maybe it's a lesson in developing less ego?

Comparison and competition do make a person a better dancer. Ultimately however, it doesn't make a person *feel* better when they fail to meet or even come close to their ideal. I think however, that one should be grateful for the positive experiences in tango, and therefore focus more on those. I also think it's important to have compassion for those of a lower level. You were there once too, remember? On the other hand, yes, it can be frustrating to stay with partners whom you have outgrown, and maybe it does them no favors in a way, unless they are still learning and refining. For some people however, their enjoyment does not center on whether they are good dancers or not, they simply want to dance. We shouldn't deny them the right to that, but if we have delusions of our ability and want to dance with those who do care about ability, well, there's nothing like a milonga to put us in our place. Do your own thing... if you want to refine your dance to be the best, then do i
 t, and
 if your goal is to simply dance, improvement disregarded, then do so. But don't expect others no matter which side of the fence you are on to only subscribe to your ideal of tango etiquette (or any other aspect of tango). An optimist has a great time at the milongas even if he or she is rejected often, because they will remember the one or two great dances of the night. A pessimist focuses on the rejections or unenjoyable dances. You get what you think about, and whatever you focus your thoughts on is how your experience is going to be.

Abrazos

Randy





From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Nov 11 17:34:33 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:34:33 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose
In-Reply-To: <111120082146.28531.4919FD1F000F11F200006F7322069997350101009B9D@comcast.net>
References: <111120082146.28531.4919FD1F000F11F200006F7322069997350101009B9D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20081111153433.17512a56gd9hkask@webmail.earthnet.net>

True enough, Randy.

Sometimes it is a true grace when some people do not want to dance  
with you or me or others. Just because someone happens to dance tango  
does not mean that it is their best social talent.

One of the dancers in our dance company said that when she was  
training in ballet, one of her teachers told some girls that they  
should learn to cook and get a husband, because they will never dance.:)

It is important to recognize people's talents.  Sometimes it is  
conversation and not tango.  Sometimes it is neither tango nor  
conversation, but playing chess.  Sometimes if you have really good  
conversations with someone, it might be best not to dance with them  
because it might ruin the conversation.

I think that it is very useful for all tango dancers to learn  
something else to do other than dance that they can do together.   
Singing is useful because with some people in the milongas you can  
sing along and don't need to dance.

Drinking champaign to tango music is another option.  Afterwards, it  
feels as if you had danced together:)

My point is that tango, and being in the milongas, is much more than  
just dancing.  The social universe of tango is immense.  In BsAs,  
there are people whom I have known for many years in the milongas,  
with whom I always chat and catch up, and with whom I have never  
danced and probably will never dance.  And yet, these tango friends  
are no less valuable than the people we dance with.  I also have met  
lovely people, whose company I had enjoyed immensely, with whom I  
finally danced.  Afterwards, I wish I didn't.  Dancing was bleak by  
comparison with a sparkling conversations that we have had.

So when people don't want to dance with you, maybe it is an  
opportunity to discover something else that is interesting about them.

In BsAs, this is easy because people hang out in the milongas for  
hours.  In the US, people are anxious to either dance or go home, and  
hanging out together does not seem to be a priority.

Not dancing can be both a tragedy and a blessing. You have to choose  
which it is moment by moment:)

All the best,

Nina



Quoting rockies at comcast.net:

> A wise friend once said 'why would you want to dance with someone  
> who doesn't want to dance with you?' We are better off concentrating  
> on those who do want to dance with us.
>



From ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar  Tue Nov 11 19:49:04 2008
From: ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar (Maria Olivera)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:49:04 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
Message-ID: <002201c94460$77120a70$65361f50$@com.ar>


Amazing Melina!

I remember I was there when the threatening "you made a big mistake"
happened...

I had several experiences myself with the lack of etiquette at Milongas...I
know I was responsible of some of them because I didn?t want to look
"snobby" and I know some people are way too sensitive to that idea, so I
agreed to dance tandas that I should have said "no, thanks".

A couple of weeks ago I was dancing in a USA city (no need to mention which
one) and I ended up feeling so annoyed that I asked my partner to leave.
First, I was having dinner, to be precise, I was chewing a piece of bread
with hummus, and there comes the host of the milonga and invites me to
dance...I felt like I didn't want to turn him down and said yes, feeling
very uncomfortable (that was my mistake). So I danced the first song while I
chewed my bread.

Right after that, during a Cortina, I stand up from my table to go to the
ladies room, for which I had to cross the dance floor that was empty, of
course. A young boy jumps up from his table and comes to me to invite me to
dance to some music that was not being played yet. I told him I was on my
way to the ladies room and left. But when I came back (the tanda had already
begun) and I was heading directly to my chair without even looking towards
where this boy was, he jumps at me again and says "so, let's dance"...again,
I felt I was being forced to say yes, and so I did. Of course, they guy
didn't even thought that my style of dancing (which he had seen previously
during the little demo my partner and I were doing) had nothing to do with
his style, and definitely I wouldn't dance with him if I would have been
able to chose.

And finally, the strawberry of the cake: The next tanda comes, a guy invites
me to dance, I was not on the mood any longer, but I said yes again. Between
songs I said all the indirect sentences I could think of to try to lead him
to say "if you want to seat...please, do it"...but he would reply in the
most selfish ways I could imagine: 

- "I'm tired, this concrete dance floor makes my legs weight a ton"
- "For me is OK, I work on concrete floor everyday"
- "It's really hot here, isn't the air conditioning working, how does
everybody keeps dancing?"
- "Oh, I'm used to this weather, it doesn't bother me at all"

And so on...

After that tanda I just told my partner and my friends that I wanted to go
home...and I started to understand how important it is to talk about the
usage of the etiquette and that it's supposed to be used to allow the
dancers NOT to dance with anybody they don't want to, or in any situation
they don't want to, for whatever reason.

So, Melina, you're doing the right thing, as usual! Please, keep reinforcing
this concepts! We'll do the same to the extent we can.

Hugs!
Mar?a
www.tangosalon.com.ar

PS: I posted this message today but it didn't get to the group, maybe it was
too big, I hope now it gets to the list.



From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 20:16:41 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:16:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <002201c94460$77120a70$65361f50$@com.ar>
Message-ID: <580936.13457.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Maria Olivera <ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
 
> I had several experiences myself with the lack of etiquette
> at Milongas...I
> know I was responsible of some of them because I didn?t
> want to look
> "snobby" and I know some people are way too
> sensitive to that idea, so I
> agreed to dance tandas that I should have said "no,
> thanks".

Dear Maria,

   Please!  You must turn down those guys.  When you don't, it only encourages them because they say, "Well, Maria Olivera danced with me and she liked it" as a reason not to improve or to impose themselves on other women.  It is already a ratio problem in most communities where there are many more women than men so that even the most mediocre of dancers is able to dance all he wants and has no incentive to improve. And then with no discouraging words, they call themselves 'teachers' with sometimes less than a year of lessons and dancing.  And the women are not any better.  They hound the men and chase them down until they must go and hide in the restroom so they can have a rest.

   A very kind man once explained it to me. 'It is your body that you are giving to him.  You have the right to choose to whom you give it.'  Don't you agree?

Un abrazo,
Nancy





      


From stermitz at tango.org  Wed Nov 12 01:51:38 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:51:38 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] New Electronic Posture Improving Device
Message-ID: <049E089D-697E-4FD6-B336-A6CC8277B861@tango.org>

All those tango teacher prayers have finally been answered. We can  
throw away our cattle prods and tasers. Announcing: The iPosture.

http://www.iposture.com/index.php

> The iPosture is an intuitive electronic device designed to improve  
> posture. Just over one inch in diameter, the iPosture automatically  
> senses when the body slouches, and it alerts the user with brief  
> vibrations to correct it.

All joking aside, this might actually be a useful teaching tool.


Tom Stermitz
http://tango.org
Denver, CO 80207



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 12 05:39:14 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:39:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BTango-L=5D_D=F6rte_Ricklefsen_y_Ramiro_Gigliotti?=
References: <953347.75766.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <976377.17552.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mostly, yes but the figure from 2.10 to 2.20 was hardly 
Salon Tango, IMHO. I'd say that figure was Nuevo.

But I agree; very nice demonstration of Tango in 
open-embrace.

Jack



> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> Mario, that was salon tango.? No nuevo.? 
> 


      



From nikdal at gmail.com  Sat Nov  8 18:40:38 2008
From: nikdal at gmail.com (Nikos Dalamagkas)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:40:38 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Ideas for a Thematic Milonga
In-Reply-To: <337565.6637.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <337565.6637.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DC00E4B89EFE409CB962599CE6F2A872@turboxPC>

Hello all, 

We are a non-profit association for Tango, in a Greek Island and we have a
milonga every friday.
The people that dance tango in a small town like us, are not so many.


So we thought that one way of increase people's interest for our milonga
(not only the tangueros), to have once a month a thematic milonga.
Now we are thinking of ideas for thematic milongas 

Do you have any idea or have you ever been to one?
please tell us your ideas.

until now we have these ideas for different thematic milongas:

1. Dressing code. 
In this milonga we can have a dress code. for example, men should wear black
clothes and women red.


2. The "composer"/"era" milonga.
In this milonga we can have a tibute to one or two composer (or an era).
Most of the music played will from them, and maybe a poster of them will be
at the wall, and a printed related text will be given to them, and maybe a
lottery with his cd's. And mybe more things on this topic


Please tell us what do you think about these 2, if you have to add
something. And possible new ideas.

Keep Tangoing 

Nikos


From MACFroggy at aol.com  Wed Nov 12 09:56:55 2008
From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:56:55 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Ideas for a Thematic Milonga
Message-ID: <c93.378b754c.364c48b7@aol.com>

There's a new milonga here in Buenos Aires in the barrio of Boedo (San Juan 
3330), called Sueno Porteno on Wednesdays.

The organizer, Julia "Pugliese", makes games and themes every week: polka 
dots, colors, ladies give the men they would like to dance with a candy, etc.

It's a very fun feminine idea that, however, a lot of men don't go for.

My personal opinion is that it can be fun once in a while for holidays or 
just because, but once a month is maybe too much. But Sueno Porteno is a big 
success, so what do I know?

Good luck with yours!

cherie

http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ 



**************
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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed Nov 12 12:18:00 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:18:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] New Electronic Posture Improving Device
In-Reply-To: <049E089D-697E-4FD6-B336-A6CC8277B861@tango.org>
References: <049E089D-697E-4FD6-B336-A6CC8277B861@tango.org>
Message-ID: <13176a380811120918v4fa733bbn5fdf4d81fab1f43@mail.gmail.com>

I can see it now. A man wears it while dancing and it vibrates. I don't want
to imagine the woman's reaction.

On 11/12/08, Tom Stermitz <stermitz at tango.org> wrote:
>
> We can throw away our cattle prods and tasers. Announcing: The iPosture.
>
> http://www.iposture.com/index.php
>
> > The iPosture is an intuitive electronic device designed to improve
> > posture. Just over one inch in diameter, the iPosture automatically
> > senses when the body slouches, and it alerts the user with brief
> > vibrations to correct it.
>
> Tom Stermitz
> http://tango.org
> Denver, CO 80207


-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:30 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:03:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] For lovers of the Vals
Message-ID: <358533.6215.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A beautiful treatment of Tete Rusconi...for those who haven't yet seen it...enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCqBW9wv3RE


      

From dchester at charter.net  Wed Nov 12 14:28:51 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:28:51 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1011.1226510637.23993.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20081112142851.3I8O2.150507.root@mp14>

Maria,

You're story made me laugh, as I've had many conversations with my wife (OK maybe some of them were arguments), about my inability to pick up on what she is really saying.  Basically, us men (at least in the U.S.) simply are not smart enough to pick up on hints like you listed (sad but true).  You have to communicate in a way that is so simple, that even WE can understand it.  

If you say something about the heat, we think you want to talk about the temperature, or if you talk about the concrete floor, we think, "Wow, she can tell how different floors feel, I wonder why I can't do that".  

: )

Basically, it just wouldn't occur to many of us that you're hinting about something else.  I've been married for 25 years, and I still don't understand my my wife can't just say, "will you turn on the light", instead of saying, "it's getting a little dark in here".


BTW, I've had the pleasure taking classes (and privates) from Maria (and Gustavo) in Vermont, and let me just say that both of them are two of the nicest people you would ever want to meet (and excellent teachers, too).

Regards (and hopefully our paths will cross again some day),

David


---- tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote: 
> From: "Maria Olivera" <ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
>
> And finally, the strawberry of the cake: The next tanda comes, a guy invites
> me to dance, I was not on the mood any longer, but I said yes again. Between
> songs I said all the indirect sentences I could think of to try to lead him
> to say "if you want to seat...please, do it"...but he would reply in the
> most selfish ways I could imagine: 
> 
> - "I'm tired, this concrete dance floor makes my legs weight a ton"
> - "For me is OK, I work on concrete floor everyday"
> - "It's really hot here, isn't the air conditioning working, how does
> everybody keeps dancing?"
> - "Oh, I'm used to this weather, it doesn't bother me at all"
> 
> And so on...

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Wed Nov 12 14:53:59 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:53:59 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] New Electronic Posture Improving Device
Message-ID: <491AC3D7.24752.493C69@flame.2xtreme.net>

I've heard of good vibrations, bad vibrations and now, expensive vibrations! 
Be sure to look at the fine print before ordering the Posture Improving 
Device because you'll also be automatically enrolled in their club. 
Membership benefits include a "Free" Lifetime Supply of Adhesvive Patches 
and Batteries for which you'll be billed $7.95 every 30 days. They'll also bill 
you another $14.95 a month, plus $7.95 S+P for the "Free" supplements 
included in your first order. That comes to $22.90 plus whatever they charge 
for S+P every month thereafter. 


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 12 15:42:59 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:42:59 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Traditional Tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W3097B03BD4911D7E017A9597140@phx.gbl>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
 
Mario sent this example of tango dancing, some people think that what is shown has something of "NUevo Tango". 
 
This is the most traditional tango salon that you can see.  The tango as danced and taught in the 40s. and today by the most famous tango teachers such as
Nito and Elba, Osvaldo Zotto, Carlos Copello, Mingo Pugliese, Puppy Costello, Diego Di Falco, etc, etc.
 
 Used as it should be in close and open embrace as needed. Exhibiting, diffeent fforms of walking, some ornaments, amagues, boleos, enrosques, rulos, sacadas, right walked turns with sacadas, ets.
 
In my opinion this is the root of tango, as it has all the movements of tango, the other styles have adopted some of the moves of traditional tango to adapt to certain conditions or to achieve certain effects.
 
It is the style as danced in "Villa Urquiza" and called by that name by some.
 
It has absolutely nothing of Nuevo Tango, on the other hand Nuevo Tango has borrowed selectively certain movements of traditonal Salon Tango.
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/

From stermitz at tango.org  Wed Nov 12 17:58:46 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:58:46 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Traditional Tango
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W3097B03BD4911D7E017A9597140@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W3097B03BD4911D7E017A9597140@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1435D4A3-A4CB-4712-8AB0-37CBADD38977@tango.org>


On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
>
> Mario sent this example of tango dancing, some people think that  
> what is shown has something of "NUevo Tango".
>
> This is the most traditional tango salon that you can see.  The  
> tango as danced and taught in the 40s. and today by the most famous  
> tango teachers such as
> ....
> It is the style as danced in "Villa Urquiza" and called by that name  
> by some.


In the video, what specifically makes this style Villa Urquiza, as  
opposed to some other style.

Tom Stermitz
Denver, CO 80207



From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Wed Nov 12 23:50:39 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:50:39 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] New Electronic Posture Improving Device
In-Reply-To: <491AC3D7.24752.493C69@flame.2xtreme.net>
References: <491AC3D7.24752.493C69@flame.2xtreme.net>
Message-ID: <491BB21F.7050008@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Good grief! Here they have a saying "tada hodo takai mono wa nai"- there 
is nothing as expensive as what you are given for free...
this posture device reminds me of the "ionised towel" that a friend of 
mine bought for about 200 dollars and kept wearing it around her neck. 
It looiked just like any other towel to me, but was supposed to be full 
of good energy.
Hope that device works at least!

flame at 2xtreme.net wrote:
> I've heard of good vibrations, bad vibrations and now, expensive vibrations! 
> Be sure to look at the fine print before ordering the Posture Improving 
> Device because you'll also be automatically enrolled in their club. 
> Membership benefits include a "Free" Lifetime Supply of Adhesvive Patches 
> and Batteries for which you'll be billed $7.95 every 30 days. They'll also bill 
> you another $14.95 a month, plus $7.95 S+P for the "Free" supplements 
> included in your first order. That comes to $22.90 plus whatever they charge 
> for S+P every month thereafter. 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 00:24:34 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:24:34 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
Message-ID: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>


How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other styles:  (in this video).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
 
Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.
 
Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a line with external rotation of the foot.
 
1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
 
Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident), close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole, walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of embellishments. 
 
2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of ocho cortado.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related
 
3 - Nuevo Tango  - 
 
Fabian Salas  -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
 
Tendency to use non traditional tango music.
 
Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas. 
 
 
 Mariano Chicho Frumboli 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related
 
A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of "surprise".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related
 
Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open embrace, some soltadas.
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Thu Nov 13 01:03:43 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:03:43 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Traditional Tango
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W3097B03BD4911D7E017A9597140@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W3097B03BD4911D7E017A9597140@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <491BC33F.1090408@tangobar-productions.com>


Amen! This is what was thought of as the best salon (social) tango and 
taught exclusively as such prior to 1994. This is what today's younger 
(and older!) tango stars learned to dance in the milongas, before 
expanding the vocabulary for exibition.  Believe me  it can be, and was, 
done on  crowded floors, in line of dance. Nuevo tango used this style 
for analysis to go beyond into a new variety of exhibition tango.
Barbara

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
> 
>Mario sent this example of tango dancing, some people think that what is shown has something of "NUevo Tango". 
> 
>This is the most traditional tango salon that you can see.  The tango as danced and taught in the 40s. and today by the most famous tango teachers such as
>Nito and Elba, Osvaldo Zotto, Carlos Copello, Mingo Pugliese, Puppy Costello, Diego Di Falco, etc, etc.
> 
> Used as it should be in close and open embrace as needed. Exhibiting, diffeent fforms of walking, some ornaments, amagues, boleos, enrosques, rulos, sacadas, right walked turns with sacadas, ets.
> 
>In my opinion this is the root of tango, as it has all the movements of tango, the other styles have adopted some of the moves of traditional tango to adapt to certain conditions or to achieve certain effects.
> 
>It is the style as danced in "Villa Urquiza" and called by that name by some.
> 
>It has absolutely nothing of Nuevo Tango, on the other hand Nuevo Tango has borrowed selectively certain movements of traditonal Salon Tango.
> 
>Best regards, Sergio
>_________________________________________________________________
>Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 10:01 AM
>
>  
>


From stermitz at tango.org  Thu Nov 13 01:21:07 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:21:07 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6B2CCD3D-3C26-44EE-A320-06FC8A635494@tango.org>

I always thought that there were a number of traditional salon  
(social) styles of tango, of which Villa Urquiza is just one, so I  
wanted to know how Villa Urquiza fit within that set of styles. The  
reason I say this, is that the tango of each neighborhood always had  
its own distinguishing aspects, and VU is just one neighborhood.

In my mental organization of tango styles, milonguero is another  
subset of traditional social tango, as they say, a version of tango  
suited to crowded, downtown milongas.

Now you are saying that Villa Urquiza IS tradtional salon tango, and  
Milonguero is not salon tango. Is that correct?

Nuevo tango is another subset of traditional tango, with considerable  
influence from fantasy elements borrowed from Todaro to Zotto. Nuevo  
(to me) has nothing to do with non-tango music.

But, I wouldn't really call Nuevo a style, rather it is an analysis of  
movements and a set of opportunities, just like fantasy is a set of  
moves and opportunities. Nuevo has nothing to do with a wide open  
embrace. Chicho (perhaps the bastard son of nuevo) is one end, but if  
you ever watch Gustavo (surely the godfather of nuevo) he normally  
dances with a very traditional salon appearance.

Is fantasy a style?


On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>
> How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself  
> from the other styles:  (in this video).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
>
> Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic  
> embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of  
> embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.
>
> Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass  
> each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a  
> line with external rotation of the foot.
>
> 1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
>
> Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident),  
> close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a  
> wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush  
> heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole,  
> walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of  
> embellishments.
>
> 2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the  
> embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of  
> ocho cortado.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related
>
> 3 - Nuevo Tango  -
>
> Fabian Salas  -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
>
> Tendency to use non traditional tango music.
>
> Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes  
> of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas.
>
>
> Mariano Chicho Frumboli
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related
>
> A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of  
> direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of  
> "surprise".
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related
>
> Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine  
> flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open  
> embrace, some soltadas.
> _________________________________________________________________
> See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are  
> part of your life
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Thu Nov 13 02:05:09 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:05:09 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <491BD1A5.6060501@tangobar-productions.com>

Yes, Traditional Tango is a better description than Villa Urquiza, and 
Sergio's description is apt.

Milonguero style was done at the same time, in the city center, very 
simply, in various styles, with major emphasis on walking and back 
ochos. In 1993 or 94 Susana Miller opened her school to teach it, 
featuring the style of Tete. Milonguero style was subsequently promoted 
as the only real social tango, ignoring Traditional Tango or that done 
in Villa Urquiza and in most neighborhoods of the city.

I find Chicho's "Nuevo Tango" in his first video 'way more tango than  
Fabian's, it's really quite lovely and not only because of  the music. 
Chicho and his partner have a real connection. . Fabian always looks, to 
me, like he and his partner are experimenting in how clever and 
wonderful they can be (and they are!!), but I see no connection. Without 
connection, there is no tango, IMHO, regardless of style or skill. I 
also find that when dancing tango techniques to non-tango music the 
connection is lost. Not because you can't have a connection without 
tango music, but because if you are dancing in a tango way, tango music 
is necessary to complete the connection. For example if you are dancing 
to blues or Frank Sinatra, you can have plenty of connection; but of 
course it isn't tango. I have danced tango movements to Frank Sinatra, 
and although enjoyable, it isn't tango and the connection isn't there. 
Whereas i can dance foxtrot to Frank or slow swing to blues with plenty 
of connection.

Que se yo, soy una vieja verde,
Abrazos,
Barbara in Vallarta

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other styles:  (in this video).
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
> 
>Long Steps, Embrace in "V", use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing.
> 
>Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a line with external rotation of the foot.
> 
>1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante -
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
> 
>Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident), close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole, walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of embellishments. 
> 
>2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of ocho cortado.
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQ&feature=related
> 
>3 - Nuevo Tango  - 
> 
>Fabian Salas  -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
> 
>Tendency to use non traditional tango music.
> 
>Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas. 
> 
> 
> Mariano Chicho Frumboli 
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw&feature=related
> 
>A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of "surprise".
> 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzM&feature=related
> 
>Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open embrace, some soltadas.
>_________________________________________________________________
>See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 10:01 AM
>
>  
>


From tango at tangodesalon.de  Thu Nov 13 06:07:52 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:07:52 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Last mail on topic: Milonga codes
Message-ID: <48F8EF31-E3C9-4238-872C-0DB95695EFEE@tangodesalon.de>

Dear Brick. Hi all.


Thanks for your reply to my mail.

You are absolutely right, that there are different social behaviour  
rules in different countries.
So, going to a table and inviting someone to dance my be ok in the  
US, but not in BA.

And, to go to a table might not be the main problem. If you invite  
someone directly and you have checked out by eye contact, that there  
is a general "openness" to you, this may be totally good.

But I just cannot belive, that the "rules" find it ok, to interrupt  
someone, if he or she is (seriously) engaged in  something else or if  
this person is obviously avoiding contact. And: IF the "rules" say  
it's ok, then it's still against good instincts. ;-)
As Trini already put this: It is NEVER a good idea to approach  
someone, who's avoiding eye contact or who looks at you in a  
rejecting way. If you do so and are then rejected, you should not  
wonder. No?

I'm surely no blind admirer of argentine culture, in fact, I'm a big  
critic of a lot of the "reglas" or "codigos". BUT: the Argentines got  
one thing right and this is the Cabeceo/Mirada. It just makes sense  
in the Tango (or Dance) context. And trying to promote that one  
"rule" in addition to the Tango itself, can be no mistake, I find.

And then: I'm 42 years old and I find myself most of my time trying  
to cooperate and interact with others. This is in general good and I  
don't mind. It's been part of my job(s) since years!
But dancing with someone socially, especially in a close embrace, if  
you really try to commit, is something very intimate and demanding.  
When I dance with a man (or a woman) I really want to please that  
person and give him (or her) a good time. And I want to have a good  
time too.

This is not about just wanting to dance with the "stars". In fact, I  
just had the nicest Di Sarli Tanda with a "beginner" in Stockholm,  
who did not dare to invite me and whom I had to encourage for 4 days.

But: I just cannot please a person, if I'm focused on something else  
or real tired or I don't like that person's dance-style or the person  
at all. And I do not want to start acting as a Tango-robot, even  
though I'm a professional teacher now.

I could do gymnastics with anyone and (almost) anytime, but Tango is  
something unique and I want to keep it that way.

Have a nice day,


Melina



Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669


From ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar  Wed Nov 12 22:53:56 2008
From: ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar (Maria Olivera)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:53:56 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <20081112142851.3I8O2.150507.root@mp14>
References: <mailman.1011.1226510637.23993.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<20081112142851.3I8O2.150507.root@mp14>
Message-ID: <000001c94543$74f13520$5ed39f60$@com.ar>

-Basically, us men (at least in the U.S.) simply are not smart enough to
pick up on hints like you listed (sad but true).  You have to communicate in
a way that is so simple, that even WE can understand it.  

-If you say something about the heat, we think you want to talk about the
temperature, or if you talk about the concrete floor, we think, "Wow, she
can tell how different floors feel, I wonder why I can't do that".  

-BTW, I've had the pleasure taking classes (and privates) from Maria (and
Gustavo) in Vermont, and let me just say that both of them are two of the
nicest people you would ever want to meet (and excellent teachers, too).

David


David!

You've made me laugh too...you might be right about me having to be more
direct, but there's something I've learned when I was involved in
politics..."don't ever underestimate the people you're talking to". 

Nevertheless, I appreciate your advice, and next time I'll go straight to
the point.

Thank you very much for your comments on us and our classes, we also had a
great time with you two, and that weekend in Vermont was magical. Hopefully
we'll be able to see you somewhere next year.

Abrazos,

Mar?a

---- tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote: 
> From: "Maria Olivera" <ma_olivera at yahoo.com.ar>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
>
> And finally, the strawberry of the cake: The next tanda comes, a guy
invites
> me to dance, I was not on the mood any longer, but I said yes again.
Between
> songs I said all the indirect sentences I could think of to try to lead
him
> to say "if you want to seat...please, do it"...but he would reply in the
> most selfish ways I could imagine: 
> 
> - "I'm tired, this concrete dance floor makes my legs weight a ton"
> - "For me is OK, I work on concrete floor everyday"
> - "It's really hot here, isn't the air conditioning working, how does
> everybody keeps dancing?"
> - "Oh, I'm used to this weather, it doesn't bother me at all"
> 
> And so on...
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 10:07:02 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:07:02 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
Message-ID: <BAY105-W290190734832881A9AA7CF97170@phx.gbl>


I will give my opinion on this subject with the knowledge that other may have a different one.  I have been trying to explain the differences and evolution of the tango styles since the mid nineties. It has been a very difficult task. The advent of You tube has greatly facilitated this endeavor as they make obvious the differences.
 
 
Tom says:
 
"The reason I say this, is that the tango of each neighborhood always had its own distinguishing aspects, and VU is just one neighborhood."
 
It is true that historically each neighborhood had its own distinguishing aspects, this is less obvious in modern times.
 
Tango used to be learnt inside the neighborhood, where the old milongueros taught the new comers, these days there are more uniform tango lessons all over the city that diluted the differences.
 
Traditional tango as it was danced in the 40s. was always danced in Villa Urquiza, and in many other places as danced by Nito, Zotto, Copello, Pugliese, Diego Difalco, etc.
 
It was more recently that the style called "Milonguero" from the crowded milongas of downtown became internationally known as "the social form of dancing tango" this in great part due to the fact that the tourists mostly visit the downtown milongas.
 
In the meantime Traditional tango was danced in Villa Urquiza as always. When people discovered this, they started calling traditional tango,"Estilo Villa Urquiza".
 
Summary "Traditional tango" and "Villa Urquiza tango" are the same. 
 
Tom Says:
 
"In my mental organization of tango styles, milonguero is another subset of traditional social tango, as they say, a version of tango suited to crowded, downtown milongas."
 
Yes, Traditional tango and Milonguero Style are social forms of tango but generally speaking Traditional tango may also be used for stage while milonguero is normally danced socially.
 
"Now you are saying that Villa Urquiza IS traditional salon tango, and Milonguero is not salon tango. Is that correct?"
 
Assuming that Tom is addressing me: my answer is :
 
Villa Urquiza and traditional tango is the same style called by two different names. 
 
Salon tango in Argentina means the style danced at the milongas to differentiate it from the one danced on stage.
 
Milonguero is therefore one of the Salon styles.
 
"Nuevo tango is another subset of traditional tango, with considerable influence from fantasy elements borrowed from Todaro to Zotto. Nuevo (to me) has nothing to do with non-tango music."
 
Nuevo Tango is not "Traditional Tango" it is a form that developed recently as result of Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas and Chicho Frumboli, didactic approach to tango. Originally it was an analytic teaching form that slowly, over a period of 10 - 15 years selected  moves from traditional tango and perhaps added some new ones such as piernazos, the back boleo, etc. and in this fashion, Nuevo became a "Tango Style".  As it is being taught and danced by many people.
 
Nuevo Tango is then another style that may be used socially or for exhibition .
 
Nuevo tango is danced like all the tango styles to traditional tango music, but for those of us that frequently go to their milongas it is obvious that they have a tendency to use alternative music to have more freedom for their dancing moves.
 
"Chicho (perhaps the bastard son of nuevo) is one end, but if you ever watch Gustavo (surely the godfather of nuevo) he normally dances with a very traditional salon appearance."
 
It is true, Gustavo uses a traditional tango embrace to dance but the great majority of the Nuevo Tango dancers use a very open tango embrace as shown in the videos.  Chicho is not a "bastard son of nuevo' he has been there from the very beginnings with Gustavo and Fabian.
 
 As it is usual in tango each one has his own personal way of dancing even within a particular style.
 
"Is fantasy a style? "
 
Fantasy is another name used to describe "Traditional tango" in its more florid appearance. The one where all the possibilities of tango are exhibited socially or on stage.
 
Best regards, Sergio
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 13:04:23 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:04:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Canyengue style
Message-ID: <BAY105-W108C81B647406DD2CAD62697170@phx.gbl>


There has been a revival of the Canyengue style.  
 
This is a form as danced by my grandparents. 
 
The embrace is a very open "V", with marked pli?, (arrugue or bending of the knees), cheek to cheek, both partners looking to the front but also to the floor (about two yards in front), the left hand of the man is at his waist level, the wwoman embraces him with her right arm around his neck.
 
The walk is with rhythmic, short steps, single or double timing, on two lines, with full sole landing on the floor, without external rotation of the foot. At times lifting the feet from the floor.
 
The music is mostly old tangos, "Francisco Canaro", "Los Muchachos de Antes", "Los Tubatango", "Sexteto Canyengue", etc.
 
Marta Anton y El Gallego Manolo  -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_3Yu3mVvs
 
Marta Anton as men took turn to dance with her in celebration of her birthday:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhwVZEzoF-0
 
Julia Zueva y Alex Barbolin
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVK6Rfg1h74
 
 
With this one we have reviewed four popular Tango Styles;
 
Traditional tango
 
Estilo Milonguero
 
Nuevo Tasngo
 
Canyengue.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 
 
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 13 13:36:39 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:36:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
References: <BAY105-W3B1BE9571A0F547E033F697170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <762677.5642.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Sergio,

I certainly bow to your superior knowledge of Tango. But! I didn't mention this in my previous post but D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' at 0.23 of the original video and they also do one at 1.07 of the second video you posted. I wasn't really sure if this is part of traditional Salon Tango or not. But now you say it's part of Nuevo Tango. I hate to say 'Gotcha' but you did say that the original video had no Tango Nuevo. I know it's picky and pedantic, but this is my nature. Do you agree that D?rte Ricklefsen y Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' and is that traditional Tango or Nuevo? Personally, I think the answer is that traditional and Nuevo are getting mixed up nowadays and I think that's great - provided it's still in the style of traditional Tango. I think that I dance traditional Salon Style Tango but I do enjoy 'changes of direction'.

Jack?



> From: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com
?
> 
> How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other 
> styles:? (in this video).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
> 
> 
> 3 - Nuevo Tango? - 
> 
> Fabian Salas? -? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0&feature=related
> 
> Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of 
> direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas. 
> 
> 



      



From tempehuck at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 14:39:41 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:39:41 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Canyengue style
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W108C81B647406DD2CAD62697170@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W108C81B647406DD2CAD62697170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370811131139w6f0892v17ed69179c74eb4e@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> There has been a revival of the Canyengue style.

     Gloria and Eduardo have been teaching canyengue on and off at
festivals for years now.  I couldn't find a video of them specifically
performing or teaching canyengue, but I did find a very interesting
one containing a hodgepodge blend of old styles by way of historical
demonstration.  The first bit of the video, if not pure canyengue, is
at least very similar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG7T8fC2UUE

     As an unrelated sidenote, they also do something at 2:05 through
2:10 that very much reminds me of ballroom paso doble, what do you
think?   Interesting.

     I also inadvertently ran across this following gem, and I can't
resist passing it along.  It was only posted last August, and what a
YouTube find!  It is an appearance by Gloria and Eduardo dancing tango
way back in 1973 in a Russian comedy film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi6PLgZxXag

Huck

From vytis at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 15:38:34 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:38:34 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W290190734832881A9AA7CF97170@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W290190734832881A9AA7CF97170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV40AAEA2D37F3C3C99E6BFAE170@phx.gbl>

Is this relevant and accurate?

http://www.tejastango.com/tangostyles.jpg

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergio Vandekier
Sent: Friday, 14 November 2008 2:07 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles


I will give my opinion on this subject with the knowledge that other may
have a different one.  I have been trying to explain the differences and
evolution of the tango styles since the mid nineties. It has been a very
difficult task. The advent of You tube has greatly facilitated this endeavor
as they make obvious the differences.
 
 


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 20:57:17 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:57:17 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango Styles
Message-ID: <1540865D-08AC-4A89-ADD0-F60E9B1F4C61@gmail.com>

There should be a corrolary to Godwin's law[1]

As a tango-l discussion grows longer, the probablility of it devolving  
into a debate about styles approaches 1.

(and/or)

In the absence of any other interesting theme, a tango-l discussion  
can be  started successfully on the topic of tango styles.

:-)

-joe

_________
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

From stermitz at tango.org  Thu Nov 13 22:18:43 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:18:43 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV40AAEA2D37F3C3C99E6BFAE170@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W290190734832881A9AA7CF97170@phx.gbl>
	<BAY102-DAV40AAEA2D37F3C3C99E6BFAE170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F220C983-3EC4-4BD7-84B1-3997BA42C699@tango.org>

I think Steve's chart is reasonable. Taxonomies often have multiple  
overlapping branches, and we know that Tango always had cross  
fertilization, so I'm sure there is no single categorization scheme.

You can muddy things if you lump too much together or if you split  
things into too many sub-styles.

Steve doesn't mention more detailed styles like Villa Urquiza, but I  
still don't know how VU differs from the tango of other neighborhoods.  
Sergio says VU is the same as Traditional Salon tango, but that  
ignores the other neighborhoods.

The only main thing I disagree with is that for me Nuevo Tango is more  
of an analysis than a style, and doesn't have much to do with non- 
tango music.

Someone asked whether "alterations" or "changes of direction" existed  
before nuevo. I'm sure they did either as individual passing steps or  
certain sequences like chains. What nuevo brought was a discovery of  
all the possibilities.

On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Vince Bagusauskas wrote:

> Is this relevant and accurate?
>
> http://www.tejastango.com/tangostyles.jpg
>

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Nov 13 22:34:00 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 03:34:00 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
Message-ID: <20081113.193400.7884.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

Tom Stermitz, Sergio Vandekier, your evident knowledge, common sense, and sheer clarity of expression fill me with admiration.  That last is saying much, considering that I've been a professional editor and writer in a technical field, and now am working long and hard to turn my fiction-writing avocation into a vocation.

One comment.  Tom wrote "tango of each neighborhood always had its own 
distinguishing aspects" and Sergio agrees, also writing "this 
is less obvious in modern times".

Buenos Aires the megaplex is pretty big, holding about a third of the 40+ million Argentines, and taking up a few dozen miles in each direction. You can see why individual milongas might develop their own individual styles.

Countering that is the size of the core city itself.  Shaped like an ocagon that got badly battered in a fight, it is less than ten miles through.  Still plenty big enough so that until fairly recently most people only went to the milongas in easy walking distance.  (And many if not most still do that.)

Countering THAT is the public transportation system of BsAs.  The underground is extensive and being expanded and rides are cheap and as cheap as those of buses.  They do quit running at 10:00 pm, however, and the lines don't go all the way to city edge.  The cab system is extensive and cheap, also, with about 40,000 taxis.

Another factor countering the compartmentalization of tango styles is the communication system in Sergio's "modern times."  It has pretty much kept pace with those of other modern countries.  You could see black-and-white films in the 1930s with tango dancing in them and Argentina's film industry is quite healthy.  TV reception in the city has long been available, and it includes a 24-hour channel, Solo Tango, devoted to tango.  This includes shows on the history, personalities, music, culture, and dancing of tango.  Of course, most of the dancing is done by professionals doing choreographed routines, but they still provide some common expectations by viewers of what tango dancing is.

In addition Argentina is a very computer literate nation and there are often several internet cafes on each city block in the downtown area.  YouTube and similar video services can be seen on these computers, though I suspect playing the music aloud is frowned upon!  Plus date rates are low, especially when shared with sometimes a few dozen other people in the cafe.

Then, of course, Argentines (many of whom are English-literate) have access to foreigners yacking about tango in forums like this one.  No doubt they are highly impressed by us - though whether positively or the reverse is a question I am not eager to see answered!

Also - Huck Kennedy's question.  Yes, that's a short segment of paso doble Gloria and Eduardo did in the video you linked to.  (Notice that it had a few tango adornments.)  What a lot of people seem not to know, or to forget, is that Argentina is a modern country with many sophisticated, educated people fully conversant with what is happening around the world, and have long been.  That includes all kind of dancing, social as well as ballet and modern dance.  There is a big group of salsa fans in Argentina, and also of (ugh!) "International Ballroom" dancers.  And some of the best swing dancing I've ever seen has been in some milongas in Argentina.

And now the mention of canyengue adds yet another ribbon to the tapestry of tango.

All of this talking I have done on the communication and transportation systems of Argentina is to one point.  Tango dancers there have a sophisticated menu of dance moves each dancer can use to create their own unique personal style - such as, for instance, to move the arms usually raised up in most tango styles down to the waist level.

That experiment, like all experiments, will probably fail to show us any advantage in the efficiency and beauty of tango dancing.  But it might.  And those who lack the courage to risk failure by making such experiments are doomed, eventually, to a static and sterile kind of dancing.  That is fine.  It is their right to make that choice.  I choose otherwise.

Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 14 10:20:20 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:20:20 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles and change of direction
Message-ID: <BAY105-W56D22277264BADC3061C2D97160@phx.gbl>


Jack says :  "Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' at 0.23 of the original video and they also do one at 1.07 of the second video you posted. I wasn't really sure if this is part of traditional Salon Tango or not."
 
 
Hi Jack,  I reviewed the two videos and what happens around those times (0.23 and 1.07)is what in traditional tango is called 
"a complete turn to the left", Ramiro is walking "outside" (to the left of the woman) and then does a left turn with a sacada of his right leg on her left.  
 
Those moves are typical of Traditional Tango as are changes of direction.  What happens in Nuevo Tango is, as Tom says, the profuse use of these moves (changes of direction) in every possible way, some of them had fallen into oblivion before, and were resucitated when re-studying all the possibilities of every move, as it is done in Nuevo Tango.
 
A style is not characterized by just a move, we have discussed the embrace, the walk, the placement of the foot on the floor, the position of the arms, the use or not of embellishments, the type of embellishments, the rhythm, the music, etc.
 
So even if a "change of direction" would have been typical of Nuevo, the use of two such moves would be irrelevant as to define the style.  The same way as a lion that a times says "Guau!" could not be called a dog. 
 
Changes of direction are present in Traditional Tango, when you do a front or a back ocho for instance.  
 
When the woman turns left (she is turning to her left which is my right) she crosses front and back with her right leg and opens (does a side step) with her left leg.  
 
 Any cross of her right leg  taken individually, isolated from her total turn could be called "a part of her left turn" . 
 
In any sequence when she is crossing front or back with her right leg, even if she is walking straight back, she is doing a left turn, if at any time during that sequence she crosses with her left leg this would be considered to be part of the opposite turn so she would have executed   "a change of direction". 
 
 As you can imagine this happens all the time in any style.
 
Summary: a turn may be or may not be a change of direction.  A lion is a lion even if at times he says Guau!
 
Best regards, Sergio
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 12:33:53 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:33:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Will the lead please stand?
Message-ID: <305402.2466.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I may be new at this but at least I can tell when the 'follow' is?doing the?leading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9d_iOlV-aA
This may be a good reason to never dance with a follow who has a rep.
?


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 14:39:32 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:39:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Will the REAL lead please stand?
Message-ID: <30446.8320.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9d_iOlV-aA
?
Ok I'm looking at it again and still at 1:05 into the dance
it seems to me that the 'follow' takes over and begins to lead.
Is this just 'good communication' or is it lead subordination?
Your opinion please?
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9d_iOlV-aA


      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 15 08:44:18 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:44:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Will the REAL lead please stand?
References: <30446.8320.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <379026.55388.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Sorry Mario, but I see no sign at all that the lady [much better word 
than 'follow', ugh!] takes over the lady. 1.05? Mario, perhaps you've 
never seen a lady walk forwards before. Not that common, especially 
in crowded milongas, but not unusual either.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> 
> http://www.youtube..com/watch?v=u9d_iOlV-aA
> ?
> Ok I'm looking at it again and still at 1:05 into the dance
> it seems to me that the 'follow' takes over and begins to lead.
> Is this just 'good communication' or is it lead subordination?
> Your opinion please?
>??



      



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 15 10:54:49 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:54:49 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango - 1989 - 1999 - today - I
Message-ID: <BAY105-W32E6CF3E769B47D4CD18BE97110@phx.gbl>


"New Styles of dance generate confrontations and polemics between milongueros" (Article from "Clarin", Sunday, August 8, 1999)
 
I will divide this article in two sections, this is the first one.
 
For ten years, the proliferation of teachers and schools have been modifying the way to dance tango. Although the change is evident, it has heterogeneous forms. As a result of that, there is a new paradigm: today, anyone can dance. 
 
The static postcard of the milongas today, with its colorful mixture of "hip youngsters" and "old time historical habitues
united in the "ritual" of the dance, is not more than that: a flat image that rarely reveals something more than a repertoire of archetypes. Behind that frozen scene, nevertheless, an unsuspected and burning world exists where the old can be new, the novelty can be obsolete, a simple thing can be difficult, and the excessive is insufficient. And in that, on the other hand, all these values are in permanent change. 
 
Ten years ago, and in a symptomatic coincidence with the world-wide triumph of the musical review Tango Argentino, the social dance of tango began to rise from the ashes in which it had been almost buried for decades. 
 
It is known that throughout these last ten years, the panorama was modified completely. Today, hundreds of instructors shape thousands of dancers who attend tens of milongas. In order to have an idea, it is enough to take a look at anyone of the specialized publications (Tangauta, B.A. Tango), or to consider that at a single school (Estrella-LaViruta) there is an enrollment of 600 students. 
 
But beyond the numbers factor, the phenomenon of the contemporary milongas marks a historical change in another sense: a new change of direction in the continuous transformation of the styles of dance throughout the century. 
 
What is being favored today on the dance floor? If it is what can be observed with more frequency, one would say that three tendencies are disputing for supremacy: 
 
the Urquiza style, the Almagro style and the Naveira style, as the fans know them, - implying a neighborhood, a club and a teacher. 
 
Sergio
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 15 11:12:11 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:12:11 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Argentino - 1989 - 1999 - Second section
Message-ID: <BAY105-W45F09C5760A1CAB843362497110@phx.gbl>


 
 
_ Note from the translator _ to clarify:  _ "In reference to the three or four most popular tango styles _ 
 
Villa Urquiza (Traditional) - Almagro (milonguero) - Naveira (Nuevo) - Todaro (traditional - Fantasia)" -
 
They are not difficult to distinguish. Make yourself comfortable on a stool by the bar and you will see them move over the waxed surface: a couple that advances with long steps, touching the floor as if they are wearing gloves on their feet is followed by another couple closely embraced and whose short steps adjust synchronously to the beat (Almagro), and behind, a third couple that unfolds all the imaginable variety of figures which the previous couples can do without (Naveira). 
 
Adding to that, there will be another couple schooled in the style of Antonio Todaro and belonging to an elite with technical formation, that alternates between the social dancing at the milongas and the professional stage performances. 
 
The fans are simultaneously protagonists and judges of the prevailing tendencies. In some halls, one or another one dominates. But on several "pistas" the practitioners of different styles mix with each other, they watch each other out, they appraise each other, they admire themselves or they condemn the others. The commentaries can be listened to between the tables, but they can be tracked all the way down to the Internet (currently a Tangolist site burns with opinions like: " So and so's dancing, looks like a cowboy with hemorrhoids "). 

Miguel Angel Zotto and Milena Plebs led the first changes at the beginning of the 90's. When they reconstructed in their spectacle Tango x 2 elements of style of the popular dance, they revealed to inadvertent eyes of the public, the wealth of the world of the milonga. 
 
Then, the halls, and the classes of Antonio Todaro, bricklayer and milonguero, with whom Zotto and Plebs had made their meticulous work of stylistic archaeology, began to fill with new customers. 
 
A little later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her classes the propagation of which usually is known as the Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a true leveling off of the dance. 
 
Right now, the influence that registers greater growth is, perhaps, the one of dancer and teacher Gustavo Naveira. The faithful followers of his method of combination of steps and figures consider it "the acme of creative improvisation ". The detractors, who detest the way in which the Naveira dancers move around the floor looking for space for their movements, define them as "the patrol cars of the dance floor." 
 
Naveira himself affirms: "a single person cannot be determining in the evolution of the dance. That's been happening from the beginning of the tango, and without stop, always because of a conjunction of factors. Now, what is arising is a system of improvisation of an even greater variety of combinations. And these changes are also transferred to the marking techniques to lead the woman". 
 
However, for disc jockey Horacio Godoy the future is in Villa Urquiza. Teachers Vilma Heredia and Gabriel Angi?? also agree that many young people are focusing their attention to the floor of the old Sunderland Club of Villa Urquiza, where they still can watch the habitu??s of half century ago. "Urquiza is what it's coming," prophesies Godoy. "There is a group of kids that realized that the maximum wealth is there. I am not talking about figures, it's about the musicality and the quality of the movement. It's about a wealth of knowledge so subtle and complex that for the ordinary eye is imperceptible. " 
 
The trends, in any case, hardly draw up general lines: common characteristics, airs of familiarity. As it has always happened with tango, there are so many ways to dance as there are dancers (it is what highly distinguishes it from almost all other forms of popular social dance). And in the same way, there will be so many opinions on the question as the number of people on the dance floor. 
 
Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 15 11:42:37 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:42:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango Argentino - 1989 - 1999 - go Sergio!
Message-ID: <824350.89266.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This guy Sergio can write!!!!? Do I hear some applause? 
?
"The static postcard of the milongas today, with its colorful mixture of "hip youngsters" and old time historical habitues
united in the "ritual" of the dance, is not more than that: a flat image that rarely reveals something more than a repertoire of archetypes. Behind that frozen scene, nevertheless, an unsuspected and burning world exists where the old can be new, the novelty can be obsolete, a simple thing can be difficult, and the excessive is insufficient. And in that, on the other hand, all these values are in permanent change. 



      

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Sat Nov 15 16:25:10 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:25:10 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Argentino - 1989 - 1999 - go Sergio!
In-Reply-To: <824350.89266.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <824350.89266.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <491F3E36.6070507@tangobar-productions.com>

Dear Mario et al,
As Sergio wrote, this is an article from the Clarin newspaper. It was 
written by one of their regular tango reporters Irene Amuchastegui and 
Laura Falcoff.
The translation (by Sergio??) is terrific too.

Mario wrote:

>This guy Sergio can write!!!!  Do I hear some applause? 
> 
>"The static postcard of the milongas today, with its colorful mixture of "hip youngsters" and old time historical habitues
>united in the "ritual" of the dance, is not more than that: a flat image that rarely reveals something more than a repertoire of archetypes. Behind that frozen scene, nevertheless, an unsuspected and burning world exists where the old can be new, the novelty can be obsolete, a simple thing can be difficult, and the excessive is insufficient. And in that, on the other hand, all these values are in permanent change. 
>
>
>
>      
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1790 - Release Date: 11/15/2008 9:32 AM
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>  
>


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 15 18:55:53 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 23:55:53 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Go Sergio
Message-ID: <BAY105-W4D1622BA77BA5725E2E3197110@phx.gbl>


Yes as Barbara says and I mentioned at the beginning of the note, this is an article that appeared in the Clarin Newspaper
on Sunday, August 8, 1999.
 
It is an article that I kept in my files ever since and I thought that it could be interesting for the group with respect to the subject of Tango Styles.
 
 
 
I do not write as well as that and certainly not even as well as Barbara does. English is not my native language.
 
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/

From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Nov 15 19:15:47 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:15:47 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Variations in Tango Styles
Message-ID: <20081115.161547.8428.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Barbara Garvey, another voice of clarity and common sense in this forum, pointed out something very important in the examples of tango nuevo given by Sergio.  Chicho and Fabian dance very differently even though both were supposedly dancing the same tango style.

Chicho, for that matter, seems to have several styles depending on the music.  In one of Sergio's examples I would not have recognized the style as tango nuevo.  Chicho stays fairly close to Claudia and does not do or lead anything very flashy.  Their dancing is simple and a bit slow, perfectly suiting the music which is languorous and sadly nostalgic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw

Elsewhere on YouTube you can see that Gustavo Naveira has his own distinct style. As does Sebastian Arce, who with his partner Mariana Montes are my favorites among the tango nuevo dancers.

What is true among tango-nuevo dancers is true for other tango styles.  Pepito Avellaneda and Puppy Castello, for instance, were both traditional style dancers.  But their personal styles were quite individual.  And they would have been highly pissed if anyone claimed they were clones of each other.

Classification systems are very useful.  They simplify the confusing complexity of the universe, help point to similarities that might be lost in an undifferentiated mental universe, give you a road map in your studies of tango.

Each tango style is a distinct vocabulary, a menu of movements and ways of moving, a palette of colors and textures.  From each style dancers can choose to use (or ignore) some idioms/actions/colors when they dance.  Just as Chicho chose to ignore many of the possibilities that tango nuevo offers so that he and Claudia could interpret the slow sad song they danced to.

So can you, as you mature in your adventuring in the wilderness of tango, also choose.  And choose not just parts of one style of dancing.  You do not have to be a traditional/nuevo/milonguero/canyengue dancer.  But a dancer of tango in all its rainbow of possibilities.  True, it will take all your life to explore those possibilities.  But is that sad?  Or grand?


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


____________________________________________________________
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From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Sun Nov 16 11:15:15 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:15:15 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Santiago, Chile
Message-ID: <3eff99210811160815re9afe04je5d63e0cd0e1d7c9@mail.gmail.com>

Hola,

Does anyone have recommendations for tango in Santiago (i am planning a 2
week trip out of BsAs for, and am afraid of going through tango withdrawal
symptoms)?

Besos Y abrazos
-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 12:29:43 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:29:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Javier Rodriguez, Andrea Misse in Istanbul
Message-ID: <232950.15969.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZcXUc7c5M
I try to not post 'performances' unless there is something really remarkable about them.
We are all used to seeing this couple doing great stuff and maybe a little jaded by that.
But let's take another look at them..wow, what a pair..he is, of course, a phenomenom
and she is really able to take advantage of the ride...to the stars, Alice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZcXUc7c5M


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 16:09:20 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:09:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
Message-ID: <118055.38069.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado show in Zagreb
Ok..this is a different Rodriguez...very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM
wow, I don't know where to begin...the music is traditional.
The moves are traditional too...but the posture! and execution!
the embrace is great, imo. but the? shoulders and torsos are doing
stuff that I was taught NOT to do in both traditional and Nuevo..
then again, look at the results..a serpentine connection that is out of
this world...does that make it fantasy??
The guy is superb...does he have a youthfull mental?computer that
dissects all of the co ordinates before they arrive?...he is amazing!
The woman..another youthful phenomena, wow!... look at the kicks
I wouldn't want to be near that rotating shredder but how does she do it?
This couple is to be noted..they are something else..I personally hope that
this doesn't catch on...I couldn't do it and I wouldn't want to be on a social 
dancefloor where it is danced..but gee one can't help but be amazed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 17:26:58 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:26:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <118055.38069.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <126562.47097.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

My, Mario, you are too easily impressed.  His arm thing is something I'd attribute to personal style.  It's a shame when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of steps, which is what this couple is doing.  The head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take much to fix it.  A talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role model for my community.  Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Tue, 11/18/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado show in Zagreb
> Ok..this is a different Rodriguez...very different.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClugH5aEvUM
> wow, I don't know where to begin...the music is
> traditional. The moves are traditional too...but the posture! and
> execution! the embrace is great, imo. but the? shoulders and torsos
> are doing stuff that I was taught NOT to do in both traditional and
> Nuevo.. then again, look at the results..a serpentine connection
> that is out of this world...does that make it fantasy??



      


From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Tue Nov 18 18:31:07 2008
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:31:07 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <126562.47097.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <118055.38069.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<126562.47097.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bc7e48270811181531u1b07dbe5l810b91e2e3dceb03@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally
find them elegant, and I find many of the dancers who are reputed to be
elegant looking stiff. So, it's all a matter of personal preference and
style.

Trini, I find your tone condescending.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin at bostonphotographs.com


On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com
> wrote:

> My, Mario, you are too easily impressed.  His arm thing is something I'd
> attribute to personal style.  It's a shame when young people sacrifice
> elegance for the sake of steps, which is what this couple is doing.  The
> head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take much to fix it.  A
> talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role model for my
> community.  Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.
>
>

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 20:03:51 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:03:51 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
Message-ID: <54E09746-02CC-4360-BD4E-F335E09D89DE@gmail.com>


Trini texted:

 > It's a shame when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of  
steps, which is what this couple is doing.

Sorin scribet:

 > Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, I guess elegance is in the eye of the beholder. Like when a man  
wears a polyester leisure suit with the shirt color open over his  
jacket collar - that might be "sport elegante" for some.

But even allowing for taste, I think that there are probably some  
common principles of elegance in tango dancing. Otherwise, why would  
people use the word?

I would suggest that elegance in tango dancing implies

. Upright posture - not stooping or looking at the floor
. Graceful movement, flowing - not jerky or rough
. Composure, dignity - not falling or stumbling or losing control

Fred Astair is elegant. Fred Flintstone is not.

Elegance seems to be one of the traditional values of Argentine tango  
dancers. I tend to agree with Trini's comment, and feel that elegance  
is not a privileged value among many of younger dancers. Has anyone  
ever heard Chicho, or Fabian Salas, or Pablo Inza, or Sebastian Arce  
talk about the importance of "elegance"? Or heard them say anything  
like "no matter what, don't ever sacrifice your elegance to achieve a  
move"?

...

As for Pablo Rodriguez's left arm - if that's the one we are talking  
about - clearly this is a fad, and not a personal idiosyncracy. It's  
one of those abrazo viruses spreading everywhere. I suspect that it's  
more than imitation and people are actually teaching it. Cherie Magnus  
called it "hand on a plate" in her blog (http://tinyurl.com/564rs5).

It produces a hand position that is, in my opinion, aesthetically  
disagreeable. I think it is a weak line for the man. For the woman it  
looks fine. It may score points in mechanics but not in beauty (IMO).

....

BTW - I agree that Pablo & Noelia are wonderful dancers.


From antonst at alidas.com.au  Tue Nov 18 22:23:20 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:23:20 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <4C9091F24B054A1FBD2DAA1F5F1763D3@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A0@stancosbs1.stanco.local>



I guess most people would agree with Sorin, that good tango is in the
eyes of the beholder. But I can't agree. No more than good wine is in
the taste buds of the beholder. In my opinion, it's got nothing to do
with which I prefer. I might have a penchant for crappy wine and cheap
fish and chips. Doesn't make it good cuisine. From my limited
experience, tango seems to increasingly lack a clear identity and a
corresponding benchmark for assessment. I'm incredulous at the enormous
variation of opinion on core matters, emanating from this list. A list
which I suspect, harbors the intelligencia of Tango. Maybe I'll
eventually come around to accepting the mantra "I think it. I believe
it. It is so."

Anton



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf
Of Sorin Varzaru
Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2008 9:46 AM
To: Tango-L at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!


Of course, elegance, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I
personally find them elegant, and I find many of the dancers who are
reputed to be elegant looking stiff. So, it's all a matter of personal
preference and style.

Trini, I find your tone condescending.

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin at bostonphotographs.com


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Nov 18 22:40:39 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:40:39 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The closest-to-perfect tango couple
Message-ID: <20081118.194039.19187.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>

Boy, you guys are tough!  The performance by Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado in Zagreb down-thumbed because of their arm and head positions.  Whew!  Glad there are no videos of ME dancing.

I wonder.  Are there ANY couples these critics consider near perfect?  What about the rest of you?  Who would you say comes the closest to your ideal?

And how about a video link and a comment or two about the dancing so the rest of us will know what you are referring to?


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


____________________________________________________________
Click here to find the right business program for you and take your career to the next level. 
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbttno07G2EUzkqqtD98hcTli9Dkyg3doVuZ0iSjps12zSaHY/


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Nov 18 23:21:15 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:21:15 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] The closest-to-perfect tango couple
References: <20081118.194039.19187.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <2CB887AEF19C434591202A5695354FE4@michaelditkoff>

I don't think it's a question of who is near perfect. It's looking at the video and writing if you like the style. Some people are fixated on figures. Some people focus more on technique. It reminds me when I visited an art museum that had modern art. A blank canvass in a frame or what looks like paint thrown onto a canvass is art to some. 

This list will never agree on a perfect tango or best couple. The problem is how we express ourselves on the list. I didn't care for the performance. Pablo's arm looked like he was stirring something. For me, it detracts from his frame. To somebody else, frame isn't important. 

I like the Detlef and Melinda videos. For me, they do NOTHING but do it so well! I'm sure some don't like watching because there are no valcaldas, colgaldas, or something else. It's a question of preference.

Our preferences mirror the teachers we like. My teacher focused on  axis, frame, posture, and balance for eight years of weekly private lessons. At times, it felt like I was in the Tango Marine Corps. So of course, my evaluation of any video is based on my training.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Have to sign up for the Atlanta Tango Festival then going to BA for the first time in April

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <larrynla at juno.com>
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:40 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] The closest-to-perfect tango couple


Boy, you guys are tough!  The performance by Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado in Zagreb down-thumbed because of their arm and head positions.  Whew!  Glad there are no videos of ME dancing.

I wonder.  Are there ANY couples these critics consider near perfect?  What about the rest of you?  Who would you say comes the closest to your ideal?

And how about a video link and a comment or two about the dancing so the rest of us will know what you are referring to?

Larry de Los Angeles


From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 23:52:20 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:52:20 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The closest-to-perfect tango couple
In-Reply-To: <20081118.194039.19187.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081118.194039.19187.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340811182052s47b54cd6pcffb88f62b120e3e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:40 PM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
> Boy, you guys are tough!  The performance by Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado in Zagreb down-thumbed because of their arm and head positions.  Whew!  Glad there are no videos of ME dancing.
>
> I wonder.  Are there ANY couples these critics consider near perfect?  What about the rest of you?  Who would you say comes the closest to your ideal?
>
> And how about a video link and a comment or two about the dancing so the rest of us will know what you are referring to?
>
>


There are some excellent role models for social dancing in the videos
for which links are provided on this web page:

http://www.centraltango.com/TangoInfo/VideoTangoMilonguero.htm

Each of these men (some deceased) has or (had) danced tango for at
least 40 years.

Ron

From politas at gmail.com  Wed Nov 19 01:10:22 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:10:22 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A0@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
References: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A0@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
Message-ID: <4923ADCE.4030206@gmail.com>

Anton Stanley wrote:
> 
> I guess most people would agree with Sorin, that good tango is in the
> eyes of the beholder. But I can't agree. No more than good wine is in
> the taste buds of the beholder. In my opinion, it's got nothing to do
> with which I prefer. I might have a penchant for crappy wine and cheap
> fish and chips. Doesn't make it good cuisine. From my limited
> experience, tango seems to increasingly lack a clear identity and a
> corresponding benchmark for assessment. 

If you want benchmarks for assessment, go do International Ballroom! 
They've got plenty.

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and 
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the 
people who dance it. There will always be variation and disagreement, as 
any perusal of the discussions about styles shows. There have always 
been such differences, there will always be such differences.

Consider that your experience of an "increasing lack of identity" may 
simply be due to a wider experience of the existing variation and 
discussion that is out there.

> I'm incredulous at the enormous
> variation of opinion on core matters, emanating from this list. A list
> which I suspect, harbors the intelligencia of Tango. 

Don't overrate this list. It's a microcosm of the Tango world

Myk
in Canberra

From antonst at alidas.com.au  Wed Nov 19 02:52:59 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:52:59 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <D75BF292802E40E2A28FF26ACDD19CD6@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A5@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

 Myk I understand your point in the below comment. 
But please guide me to someone who can improve my tango dancing. And why
their method of defining tango would be any clearer than yours.


Anton


"If you want benchmarks for assessment, go do International Ballroom! 
They've got plenty.

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and 
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the 
people who dance it."




From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 04:05:57 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The closest-to-perfect tango couple
References: <20081118.194039.19187.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <70510.98503.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I love the exuberence of youth as displayed by Pablo Rodriguez & Noelia Hurtado. 
But for other extreme you need go no further than Mario's previous YouTube video 
of Javier Rodriguez and Andrea Misse.?Elegance personified. 

Jack



> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> I wonder.? Are there ANY couples these critics consider near perfect?? What 
> about the rest of you?? Who would you say comes the closest to your ideal?
> 
> And how about a video link and a comment or two about the dancing so the rest of 
> us will know what you are referring to?
> 



      



From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 10:49:21 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:49:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Milonga solution
Message-ID: <291429.57739.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5VTQb7nc9c
?
This couple's Milonga dance is a breath of fresh aire and very instructional
to the up-tight and can't-get-it-right Tango dancers who usually sit out this song.
First of all; all steps are in Parallel footing and there is never a doubt about what
is happening for either partner. Secondly; 90% of the steps are done outside position.
This way we have outside parallel stepping and no body gets their foot stepped on...
(just in case that is what the non-Milonga dancers worry about all the time)
The third ingrediant is the ability to dance..not just move from one pose to another.
Or better put; a sense of rhythm ..one that effects the whole body and not just the mine.
Anyway, check this video out and try imitating it at home, it's safe! 
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5VTQb7nc9c


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 11:47:23 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:47:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <4923ADCE.4030206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <299256.10751.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com> wrote:

Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and 
control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the 
people who dance it. 

-----

That?s an excuse, not a reason.  There?s a difference.  Good posture is Tango 101.  If there is some physical defect that makes it impossible for them to hold their heads and shoulders up, then that would be a reason.  It wouldn?t make the presentation any more elegant, but it mitigates the outcome of the performance.

I do hold couples doing a FORMAL PRESENTATION to a higher level of tango than I would for others simply dancing at a milonga.  Presentations should be measured by their OUTCOME, not their output.   Read Mario?s post again.  His first reaction is along the lines of ?What the h???  This is outcome.  This presentation failed in that regard.  It also failed with me.  Think of demos as a job interview.  You wouldn?t dress in sweats because it would detract from your message.  Same thing here, only the poor posture is what is detracting from the message of the artists.

Presentations can leave a significant impression on its audience, particularly beginners.  As a long-time organizer I?m aware of the impact they can have weeks, months, or even years down the road.  I believe that organizers have a responsibility to present tango in a good way, not just anyway old way.  If there is very little tango in Zagreb and this was a young community, then I can understand why the host was gushing over this couple.  

This couple is obviously talented but they would be better served by being told the truth rather than being coddled.  If they paid more attention to basics like posture and looking elegant, then this couple would really be something.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      


From politas at gmail.com  Wed Nov 19 13:58:58 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 05:58:58 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <299256.10751.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <299256.10751.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <492461F2.3040802@gmail.com>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Argentine Tango is a social dance, with no ruling body to define and 
>> control it. As such, it is free to adapt to changing preferences of the 
>> people who dance it. 
> 
> -----
> 
> That?s an excuse, not a reason.  There?s a difference.  Good posture
> is Tango 101.
>
Social dances are defined and controlled by the community of people 
dancing them. And yes, I agree that posture is a critical element of 
Tango, and it's one of the defects in my own dancing that I'm working 
hard to fix at the moment.

I'm not recommending Tango Anarchy, just a continuation of the current 
state of affairs.

> I do hold couples doing a FORMAL PRESENTATION to a higher level of
> tango than I would for others simply dancing at a milonga. 
> Presentations should be measured by their OUTCOME, not their output.  
> Read Mario?s post again.  His first reaction is along the lines of 
> ?What the h???  This is outcome.  This presentation failed in that
> regard.  It also failed with me.
> 
I was replying to Anton's comments, not Mario's. Anton was expressing a 
desire for some potent authority to define Tango and make it easier to 
assess. I happen to think such a thing would be the death of Tango's 
diversity, just as International Ballroom has turned ballroom dancing 
into a codified nightmare where taking an unauthorised step will get you 
thrown out of a competition. More importantly, where those competitions 
are seen to be the purpose of the dance, instead of the enjoyment of the 
dancers.

Myk
in Canberra

From politas at gmail.com  Wed Nov 19 14:07:41 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:07:41 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A5@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
References: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7A5@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
Message-ID: <492463FD.6080706@gmail.com>

Anton Stanley wrote:
>  Myk I understand your point in the below comment. 
> But please guide me to someone who can improve my tango dancing.

Find the kind of Tango dancing you want to do. Watch it carefully and 
find its defining characteristics. Then talk with teachers about those 
characteristics. The ones that talk sensibly about them are likely to be 
better teachers than those that can only discuss their own methods for 
teaching.

> And why
> their method of defining tango would be any clearer than yours.

I thought you said you understood my point? Didn't I quite carefully 
_not_ define Tango? I'm not qualified, and I don't think any single 
person or body of people are.

Sure there are a few things that we can all agree are the basic 
fundamentals of Tango, but as soon as you get into details, there's a 
lot of rich diversity.

Myk
in Canberra

	

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 19 15:37:46 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:37:46 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <299256.10751.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <4923ADCE.4030206@gmail.com>
	<299256.10751.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV265ED890258CB6655471DAE0D0@phx.gbl>



Certainly an entertaining couple in the 1st half of their performance.  I don't know if they were incorporating milonga style into the dance (disagree it was mere steps) or he was trying to seduce her with his bizarre snaky moves.  A bit more restrained in the second half I thought.

But what of this formal presentation stuff?  Are there not different and older styles of tango that can have bad posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon tango?

I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture. 



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Thursday, 20 November 2008 3:47 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!

>That?s an excuse, not a reason.  There?s a difference.  Good posture is Tango 101



From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 15:49:19 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:49:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Assessing tango (was Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look
	out!)
In-Reply-To: <492461F2.3040802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <407201.94450.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Myk Dowling <politas at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was replying to Anton's comments, not Mario's.
> Anton was expressing a desire for some potent authority to define Tango and make it easier to assess. 

I didn't read that in Anton's statement, but I did read a reflection of what I do see happening.  That people are too willing to have an "anything goes" philosophy about tango without really thinking through the implications.  Inexperience?  Laziness?  Excuses?

Tango is a dance that anyone can hang up a shingle and call himself/herself a teacher.  There's no qualifying exam or regulations.  So it depends on the voices that are heard to help define what it is.  I think that too often the voices that are supportive of new things in tango, such as nuevo, are misused.  Others take the support of nuevo to mean "anything goes".  But the best of the nuevo practitioners would not advocate that.  In fact, they look for the same qualities that traditionalists look for, too.  Elegance, connection, musicality.


Trini de Pittsburgh







      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 16:09:22 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:09:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV265ED890258CB6655471DAE0D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <119177.77440.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> But what of this formal presentation stuff?  Are there not
> different and older styles of tango that can have bad
> posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon
> tango?

I don't know of any, but styles of dancing back then were often influenced by the clothes worn (e.g. long skirts that gathered at the knees).  These influences are what I would consider to be natural and evolutionary.  But even then, I'm sure that were bad examples as well as good examples.

 
> I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture. 

You'll have to come to Pittsburgh.  I learned early on to lift my head up, courtesy of Susana Miller.  In our early workshops together when I would partner her, Susana would whisper harshly to me "Head up!" whenever I looked down to see what she was demonstrating.  I learned my lesson well. It's funny because every time she comes to visit, everybody in the community becomes more aware of their posture and head position.  Chin up!  Eyes forward!  Musica, maestro! 

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 19 16:27:03 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:27:03 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <119177.77440.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <BAY102-DAV265ED890258CB6655471DAE0D0@phx.gbl>
	<119177.77440.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV52C52E08C6778AD8CE0E4AE0D0@phx.gbl>



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Thursday, 20 November 2008 8:09 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!


>>Are there not
>> different and older styles of tango that can have bad
>> posture and "funny little steps" compared to salon
>> tango?

>I don't know of any, 


Example: Cayengue: meh

 
>> I am interested in seeing you dancing with good posture. 

>You'll have to come to Pittsburgh.  

Hard from Canberra to just drop in.  But no videos of you on Youtube?

Agree on your other points.  My other pet hates: men looking down at where
their feet are going; men scuttling around the dance floor at a million
miles an hour; women who think aggressive ganchos defines the standard of
tango dancer they are.  Where is the musicality and connection?



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed Nov 19 18:28:18 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:28:18 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] The Milonga solution
References: <291429.57739.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D81714AD2CC54B3792AC424C3A56095F@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
Did you realize the man's left hand didn't "stir the pot" like the last video you showed. Nobody's foot should get stepped on in milonga so there's no reason for the man to step outside to prevent something that shouldn't happen anyway.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:49 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] The Milonga solution


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5VTQb7nc9c

This couple's Milonga dance is a breath of fresh aire and very instructional
to the up-tight and can't-get-it-right Tango dancers who usually sit out this song.
First of all; all steps are in Parallel footing and there is never a doubt about what
is happening for either partner. Secondly; 90% of the steps are done outside position.
This way we have outside parallel stepping and no body gets their foot stepped on...
(just in case that is what the non-Milonga dancers worry about all the time)
The third ingrediant is the ability to dance..not just move from one pose to another.
Or better put; a sense of rhythm ..one that effects the whole body and not just the mine.
Anyway, check this video out and try imitating it at home, it's safe! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5VTQb7nc9c


      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From dchester at charter.net  Wed Nov 19 18:38:12 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:38:12 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
Message-ID: <002d01c94a9f$e3001a20$a9004e60$@net>

Trini,

 

Generally speaking, I tend to like and agree with your posts, but not so
much with this one.  I can accept that it's not your cup of tea, as we all
have our personal preferences.  IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the
"end all be all" to a good dance.  I actually like it when people try to
create their own style.    

 

David

 

--------------------------------------------------------

His arm thing is something I'd attribute to personal style.  It's a shame
when young people sacrifice elegance for the sake of steps, which is what
this couple is doing.  The head positions are terrible, and it wouldn't take
much to fix it.  A talented couple, but not one I'd care to have as a role
model for my community.  Perhaps in Zagreb they don't have many options.

 

 

 

 

      

 


From politas at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 05:09:05 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:09:05 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Assessing tango (was Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look
 out!)
In-Reply-To: <407201.94450.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <407201.94450.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49253741.9060307@gmail.com>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> I didn't read that in Anton's statement, but I did read a reflection
> of what I do see happening.  That people are too willing to have an
> "anything goes" philosophy about tango without really thinking through
> the implications.  Inexperience?  Laziness?  Excuses?
>
I'm not one of them. I think there is range of styles that can currently 
be called "Tango", and I think that range mutates over time, and trying 
to prevent that _gradual_ mutation is impossible and undesirable.

That doesn't mean I feel free to dance however I want. My desire is to 
dance in a way that seems very traditional, when dancing to traditional 
music. When dancing to nuevo/fusion music, I like to get a bit more 
experimental, but only a little.

> Tango is a dance that anyone can hang up a shingle and call
> himself/herself a teacher.  There's no qualifying exam or regulations. 
> So it depends on the voices that are heard to help define what it is.
> I think that too often the voices that are supportive of new things in
> tango, such as nuevo, are misused.  Others take the support of nuevo to
> mean "anything goes".  But the best of the nuevo practitioners would
> not advocate that.  In fact, they look for the same qualities that
> traditionalists look for, too.  Elegance, connection, musicality.

I agree entirely.

Myk
in Canberra	

From al at sgi.com  Thu Nov 20 05:24:31 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:24:31 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <002d01c94a9f$e3001a20$a9004e60$@net>
References: <002d01c94a9f$e3001a20$a9004e60$@net>
Message-ID: <49253ADF.2020302@sgi.com>

David wrote:
> Trini,
> 
>  
> 
> Generally speaking, I tend to like and agree with your posts, but not so
> much with this one.  I can accept that it's not your cup of tea, as we all
> have our personal preferences.  IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the
> "end all be all" to a good dance.  I actually like it when people try to
> create their own style.    
> 
Depends on what you mean by elegance. For me, elegance is the feeling you
get that someone else's movement are natural and effortless (even though
they aren't), not some form of codified "elegance" defined by committee.

In that sense I believe that there are many, many ways to be elegant, and as
a result many, many styles that work. But I don't think a style that isn't
elegent in *some* sense (for at least some people) is actually any good.

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu Nov 20 05:38:02 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:38:02 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] The Milonga solution
In-Reply-To: <D81714AD2CC54B3792AC424C3A56095F@michaelditkoff>
References: <291429.57739.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<D81714AD2CC54B3792AC424C3A56095F@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <49253E0A.5030401@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Michael wrote:
> Mario:
> Did you realize the man's left hand didn't "stir the pot" like the last video you showed. Nobody's foot should get stepped on in milonga so there's no reason for the man to step outside to prevent something that shouldn't happen anyway.
>
> Mario had written:
> First of all; all steps are in Parallel footing and there is never a doubt about what
> is happening for either partner. Secondly; 90% of the steps are done outside position.
> This way we have outside parallel stepping and no body gets their foot stepped on...
> (just in case that is what the non-Milonga dancers worry about all the time)
>   
LOL, I agree, Michael. However, I am afraid that now you may have 
spoiled Mario's delight in having found a solution how not to keep 
stepping on his partner's feet. Nope, walking in the outside parallel 
position at all times is not how this is corrected. ; ) It may help to 
take classes occasionally and learn more about connection and leading, 
something that remains fairly invisible in youtube videos...

grin
Astrid




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 13:24:31 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:24:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Foot touch leading
Message-ID: <38078.88701.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atCA0lHX2MI
?
oops, I have to say that I do NOT like the moving of the woman's foot by
the man's. It looks sophisticated maybe (not to me) but where is the 
musicality?..I have never seen a foot sweep that had any relationship
to the music being played. If this continues to build, there's no telling
where this will lead..(not a pun).
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atCA0lHX2MI


      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Nov 20 13:57:56 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:57:56 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Foot touch leading
In-Reply-To: <38078.88701.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <38078.88701.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380811201057x57a15447kf6e5375e0a29f850@mail.gmail.com>

Mario:
I don't have to see the video to know you don't understand barridas
(sweeping of the foot). The man doesn't move the woman's foot with his foot.
The man places his foot next to the woman's foot, leads her to step,
usually, but not always sideways, and moves his foot when she moves her
foot. He sticks to her foot like velcro. The sweep is an adornment. The lead
comes from the chest NOT the foot. If he pushes the woman's foot with his
foot, the woman could change her weight to the foot he's trying to sweep.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC


On 11/20/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atCA0lHX2MI
>
> oops, I have to say that I do NOT like the moving of the woman's foot by
> the man's. It looks sophisticated maybe (not to me) but where is the
> musicality?..I have never seen a foot sweep that had any relationship
> to the music being played. If this continues to build, there's no telling
> where this will lead..(not a pun).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atCA0lHX2MI
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From Crrtango at aol.com  Thu Nov 20 15:18:31 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:18:31 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
Message-ID: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>

re the barrida as "adornment" (?)

Sorry Michael but I disagree about the barrida.   The barrida (sweep, like a 
broom, in Spanish, or loosely, slide or drag) is definitely led, and does 
involve actually moving the follower's foot, but as with some other steps in 
tango, it is often taught incorrectly.   There are several different types of 
barridas but if you are talking about where the lead opens up slightly and places 
the follower to his right while touching her front foot, then stepping across, 
then moving her foot, that is not an adornment.  The lead sets up the follower 
by placing her weight on the back leg, which takes the weight off the front 
foot, which makes it possible and fairly easy to slide it.   But the mistake is 
usually in where the leader is positioned.  All too often it is taught that 
the lead then pushes the foot but that is the mistake. If the lead pushes, he 
and she will be slightly off balance and might have to depend on her moving it, 
i.e. making it her "adornment" to finish, because it can cause her to shift 
her weight to that foot for balance, which firmly plants it instead of leaving 
it without weight, and difficult to move.   The lead should step past her 
foot, then pull her foot to him, not push it away. The only really active part for 
the follower is to stay attached to the man's foot (yes, a little like 
Velcro) until he moves his foot away from it.   There is another barrida where the 
man puts his foot in front of hers, making it appear that she leads or drags 
his foot, but that is also led and not an adornment (but cool to do once in a 
while)   And barridas can also be musical, as can any step.   Musicality is not 
about any particular step but about how and when and where the step is 
executed.   It might look very forced in a fast tango by D'Arienzo, but fit very well 
in a slower one like DiSarli or Pugliese. 

Cheers,
Charles


**************
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social 
networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com 
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From vytis at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 20 15:19:38 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:19:38 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Foot touch leading
In-Reply-To: <13176a380811201057x57a15447kf6e5375e0a29f850@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38078.88701.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<13176a380811201057x57a15447kf6e5375e0a29f850@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV11D565314C128E99166D0FAE0C0@phx.gbl>

Heh, I see the ensuing post from here:

First person: "What do you mean you don't have to see the video?"

Second person: "Well your post ah... it's just the vibe".

<g>

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Michael
Sent: Friday, 21 November 2008 5:58 AM
To: sopelote at yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Foot touch leading

Mario:
I don't have to see the video to know you don't understand barridas


From Crrtango at aol.com  Thu Nov 20 15:31:43 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:31:43 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, etc
Message-ID: <cc3.34a23e9e.3657232f@aol.com>

Sorry, I left out that the video shows the second type of barrida I mentioned 
in my post, except for the illusion of her leading.   This one is led from 
the torso by leading her to step on the back foot freeing up the front one to be 
moved, but even here you can see him step slightly past her, then "pull" the 
foot, not push it. Either way she has her foot led both by the body lead and 
the leader's foot.

Cheers,
Charles


**************
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social 
networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com 
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin
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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu Nov 20 15:47:41 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:47:41 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
In-Reply-To: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>
References: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380811201247g75a9e79cydc1704cb6916064d@mail.gmail.com>

Charles;
I don't see the disagreement. You said exactly what I said, though in more
detail. The man leads the barrida using his torso, not by pushing the
woman's foot.

Michael


On 11/20/08, Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:
>
> re the barrida as "adornment" (?)
>
> Sorry Michael but I disagree about the barrida.   The barrida (sweep, like
> a
> broom, in Spanish, or loosely, slide or drag) is definitely led, and does
> involve actually moving the follower's foot, but as with some other steps
> in
> tango, it is often taught incorrectly.   There are several different types
> of
> barridas but if you are talking about where the lead opens up slightly and
> places the follower to his right while touching her front foot, then
> stepping across,
> then moving her foot, that is not an adornment.  The lead sets up the
> follower
> by placing her weight on the back leg, which takes the weight off the front
> foot, which makes it possible and fairly easy to slide it.   But the
> mistake is
> usually in where the leader is positioned.  All too often it is taught that
> the lead then pushes the foot but that is the mistake. If the lead pushes,
> he
> and she will be slightly off balance and might have to depend on her moving
> it,
> i.e. making it her "adornment" to finish, because it can cause her to shift
> her weight to that foot for balance, which firmly plants it instead of
> leaving
> it without weight, and difficult to move.
> Cheers,
> Charles
>
>
> **************
> One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social
> networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
> today!(
> http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin
> =new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 16:27:44 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:27:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
In-Reply-To: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>
Message-ID: <521829.25353.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 11/20/08, Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:
 
> Sorry Michael but I disagree about the barrida.   The
> barrida (sweep, like a broom, in Spanish, or loosely, slide or drag) is definitely led, and does involve actually moving the follower's foot, but as with some other steps in tango, it is often taught incorrectly.   

Actually, gentlemen, the secrets to the barrida involve understanding the follower's technique moreso than man's technique.  They include:

1 - All of the woman's weight is on one foot so that the extended leg is weightless.  The woman cannot be taking a big step.  She needs to find her natural extension so that she does not need to shift her weight back.

2 - The woman's leg must move separately within the hip socket, so that when the foot is moved, the hip doesn't pull the woman's torso with it.

3 - Once the man makes contact with the woman's foot, she keeps in contact until the man takes his foot away or sends her foot away.

4 - Soft knees that can bend (both man and woman).

I have to credit Pulpo and Luiza for clearly defining these elements, which are part of Pulpo's distinctive style.  Once one understands what she needs to do a barrida without falling, then it becomes easier to adjust your leading technique, accordingly.  

Depending on what one wants to do, there are different ways of leading barridas or things with foot contact.  Some involve the chest, some don't.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 17:02:59 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:02:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <002d01c94a9f$e3001a20$a9004e60$@net>
Message-ID: <431818.53557.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, David <dchester at charter.net> wrote:

> posts, but not so much with this one.  I can accept that it's not your
> cup of tea, as we all have our personal preferences.  IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the "end all be all" to a good dance.   


I didn't say that elegance is the "end all be all" of a dance.  But it is an important characteristic of tango, as opposed to, say, the chicken dance.  And it's important enough that dancers ought to incorporate it into their studies just as much as they do the latest fancy steps.

I also agree with Alexis' comments on elegance.  Children on a playground can have a certain elegance as they move freely, swinging on the bars, uninhibited.  A cougar hunting it's prey.  A bird in flight.  Free-moving, and elegant.

Here are some definitions from my dictionary:

Elegant
1.  tastefully fine or luxurious in dress, style, design, etc.
2.  gracefully refined and dignified
3.  nice, choice, or pleasingly superiour in quality or kind
4.  excellent, fine, superior, 

I would say #2 applies the most regarding tango.  However, words are important and they still have a definition.  So, while people may describe things differently, things aren't totally in the eye of the beholder.  I think what tends to happen is that people don't explore the different shades of meaning that different words can provide.

Also, concerning canyengue, in the videos that I saw, the posture is different but necessarily bad.  The man bends at the waist but he still has a straight spine.  The woman may have a slight bend due to her left shoulder being raised.  That seems to be a function of the steps or possibly height differences.  Not being a student of canyengue, though, I can't comment too much more.


Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 17:05:56 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Serpentine youth in Zagreb..look out!
In-Reply-To: <002d01c94a9f$e3001a20$a9004e60$@net>
Message-ID: <796236.64334.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, David <dchester at charter.net> wrote:

> posts, but not so much with this one.  I can accept that it's not your
> cup of tea, as we all have our personal preferences.  IMO, elegance (as you put it) is not the "end all be all" to a good dance.   


I didn't say that elegance is the "end all be all" of a dance.  But it is an important characteristic of tango, as opposed to, say, the chicken dance.  And it's important enough that dancers ought to incorporate it into their studies just as much as they do the latest fancy steps.

I also agree with Alexis' comments on elegance.  Children on a playground can have a certain elegance as they move freely, swinging on the bars, uninhibited.  A cougar hunting it's prey.  A bird in flight.  Free-moving, and elegant.

Here are some definitions from my dictionary:

Elegant
1.  tastefully fine or luxurious in dress, style, design, etc.
2.  gracefully refined and dignified
3.  nice, choice, or pleasingly superiour in quality or kind
4.  excellent, fine, superior, 

I would say #2 applies the most regarding tango.  However, words are important and they still have a definition.  So, while people may describe things differently, things aren't totally in the eye of the beholder.  I think what tends to happen is that people don't explore the different shades of meaning that different words can provide.

Also, concerning canyengue, in the videos that I saw, the posture is different but necessarily bad.  The man bends at the waist but he still has a straight spine.  The woman may have a slight bend due to her left shoulder being raised.  That seems to be a function of the steps or possibly height differences.  Not being a student of canyengue, though, I can't comment too much more.


Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 21 10:01:56 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:01:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..always a beautiful walk!
Message-ID: <478629.84880.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUBKF6Q3cI
A recent video by our friends Melina and Detleff.
This?couple waas (and still is)?one of my first crushes in Tango.
The more I learn, the more I appreciate their?exact and beautiful walk.
?Recently, I've been receiving mail off-list about close embrace
and what defines it..particularly that when a couple is dancing closely
it doesn't necessarily mean that they are in close embrace. I was 
suprisingly informed that this dance by Eduardo Masci was not a 
close embrace dance....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI
Duh, my world is turned upside down...
OK, since my informant wouldn't give me detailes, I'm guessing that they
are not sharing the same axis...do these two dances? qualify in your mind? thks


      

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Fri Nov 21 13:47:03 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:47:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
In-Reply-To: <521829.25353.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <521829.25353.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49270227.1000006@tangobar-productions.com>

Hi Trini et al,

The nicely detailed technique for barridas you describe was being taught 
at least by the mid 1980's. We learned it from one or more of our first 
teachers, who included Orlando Paiva (Sr.), Danel and Maria Bastone, 
Pupi Castello, and Nito & Elba Garcia. It's a useful way to remind 
followers that they must have all their weight on only one foot.
Abrazos,
Barbara Garvey




Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

>1 - All of the woman's weight is on one foot so that the extended leg is weightless.  The woman cannot be taking a big step.  She needs to find her natural extension so that she does not need to shift her weight back.
>
>2 - The woman's leg must move separately within the hip socket, so that when the foot is moved, the hip doesn't pull the woman's torso with it.
>
>3 - Once the man makes contact with the woman's foot, she keeps in contact until the man takes his foot away or sends her foot away.
>
>4 - Soft knees that can bend (both man and woman).
>
>I have to credit Pulpo and Luiza for clearly defining these elements, which are part of Pulpo's distinctive style.  Once one understands what she needs to do a barrida without falling, then it becomes easier to adjust your leading technique, accordingly.  
>
>Depending on what one wants to do, there are different ways of leading barridas or things with foot contact.  Some involve the chest, some don't.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>      
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
> Actually, gentlemen, the secrets to the barrida involve understanding 
> the follower's technique moreso than man's technique. They include:
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1801 - Release Date: 11/20/2008 9:11 AM
>
>  
>


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat Nov 22 15:58:07 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:58:07 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] ..always a beautiful walk!
References: <478629.84880.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2E928DBD30BC40E68D697E9A2FC1C446@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
Did you notice that Detleff's left arm and Melina's right arm didn't move the entire tango. The arms are part of the frame. There was no "stirring the pot" as in another video you thought was fantastic.

I don't hold my left hand so high. That causes muscle fatigue for me and my partner.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] ..always a beautiful walk!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUBKF6Q3cI
A recent video by our friends Melina and Detleff.
This couple waas (and still is) one of my first crushes in Tango.
The more I learn, the more I appreciate their exact and beautiful walk.


      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Nov 22 20:30:19 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:30:19 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] under-turned and over-turned ochos
Message-ID: <20081122.173019.4053.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

The year after Fabian Salas was last here in L.A. "Chicho" Frumboli came here 
several times.  One of his classes covered under-turned and over-turned ochos.

Up to then, despite having maybe three dozen teachers face-to-face 
(though most just for a few hours) and seen lots of videos, ochos just 
meant two 180-degree turns after another that returned the dancer to 
(usually her) starting position.  Frumboli explained that 
there is a whole family of figures with pivots in them.  

________________________________ under-turned ochos
Suppose instead of two 180-degree turns the man leads two 90-degree 
turns.  They produce a zig-zag figure that travels (usually) along the 
line of dance.  He called these under-turned ochos.  So the man, 
instead of standing in the same spot to lead the ocho, must travel with 
the woman.  If he leads her to step backward he has to step forward.  
They mirror each other.

Or if he leads her to step forward, doing under-turned forward ochos, 
he has to step backward.  So he should first lead the two of them into 
a half-turn to remain moving along the line of dance.

________________________________ over-turned ochos
Leading ochos where the woman does greater than 180-degree pivots 
creates over-turned ochos.  If her pivot is 270 degrees (a 3/4 turn) or 
360 degrees (a full turn) the leader may only want her to do a single 
pivoting step, not two the way one does the normal ocho.  But such is 
possible, just not easy.  And the man is going to have to do some 
movement from his starting spot as with zig-zags.

________________________________ sideways ochos
If the man leads his partner to pivot and step across behind (or in 
front) of her supporting foot he can lead ochos to the left and right 
instead of along (or opposite) the line of dance.

________________________________ grapevines/braids/cadenas
If you take the half a forward ocho and half a backward ocho and stick 
them together (along with, perhaps, other individual steps), what do 
you get?

Several possibilities.  Among them is the cadena, which I first 
encounted in a modern dance class under the name of the braid, and in a 
jazz dance class as a grapevine.  It might be of this pattern: side, to 
the side crossing behind, side, to the side crossing in front, and 
repeat.  The man typically mirrors his partner.  When she steps side 
crossing behind he steps side crossing in front.  Or he can duplicate 
her step, so both are crossing behind at the same time.

Another possibility: a man can lead the cadena so the woman makes a box 
or hexagon or octagon around the man while he stands in the same spot, 
turning to remain facing her.  This is the molinete (wheel), where he 
is the hub and she the rim.

________________________________ colgadas
Further development of these ideas leads to the colgada, where the two 
partners lean away from each other and the woman spins on one foot 
while the man steps from side to side on each side of her supporting 
foot.  With her free foot she can do several kinds of adornos, most 
often just a long kick back that leaves her free leg extended until he 
stops the spin, maybe after just a half-turn or maybe after several 
complete turns.

________________________________ Nuevo?  Or not?
I don't know if all these possibilities can really be included under 
the umbrella of "nuevo" tango.  I seem to recall seeing a few of these 
combinations before Naveira and Salas began widely teaching after "The 
Tango Lesson" made them well known.  But it was a revelation to me that 
the combinations were all related.

And significant historically perhaps that it was teachers identified by 
others (but not by themselves) as nuevo tango teachers who taught these 
classes.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



____________________________________________________________
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 22 22:19:33 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:19:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] under-turned and over-turned ochos
References: <20081122.173019.4053.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <832067.48814.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,

You often amaze me with your posts and now I don't know whether you're 
playing with us or not. Just who were these "three dozen teachers" who 
could teach Ochos and fail to mention that the amount of turn can vary? 
Sorry, but it just beggars belief. OK, overturned Ochos can wait, but, IMHO,?
underturned Ochos should be taught in the very?first 'Ochos lesson' because, 
for one thing, they're easier for the lady than the full 180 deg turn and secondly,?
as Larry mentions,?they're progressive rather than staying is one place.?I also 
like to rotate?to right or left?while the lady does her Ochos as she circles around 
me. This is achieved?by varying the amount of turn in each of the 2 steps of the 
Ocho. Again, especially with the forward Ocho, IMO, this is suitable for beginners.

C'mon Larry, tell us you're just kidding :-).

Jack


> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> Up to then, despite having maybe three dozen teachers face-to-face 
> (though most just for a few hours) and seen lots of videos, ochos just 
> meant two 180-degree turns after another that returned the dancer to 
> (usually her) starting position.? Frumboli explained that 
> there is a whole family of figures with pivots in them.? 
> 



      



From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 23 12:44:55 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:44:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
Message-ID: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA
?
Jorge Firpo, here, is?giving a demo at his class. The woman is not even named
and so it is probably an advanced student.? I really like this dance. It is plain to
see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic..
There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman
contributing because she looks darn good, too!? Would half the women in the?class 
have been able to deliver as good or nearly as good an experience??? Is this a good
reason for a lead?to be very deliberate about whom?one chooses to dance with?
The dance dosen't look that complicated but the 'attack' by both partners is superb.
..Any thoughts? ..{of course I will await and ignore the put-downs that will be posted
by Tango snobs who think that the $1,200 I?have?already spent on lessons isn't nearly 
enough to keep their economy chugging along.}
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 23 13:40:20 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:40:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
Message-ID: <117.23893.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
?
Here is another of Jorge Firpo and a student dancing in a class.
It seems to answer my original question..the dance is good but not 'as good'.
The song is just as dynamic but the dancers seem to lose a little of their edge
when compared to the preceeding post's video.
I am guessing that the student isn't as sure of herself and so there is hesitation
and weak responses..Jorge senses her difficulty and so is taking his foot off of
the accelerator so to speak. ....Do you agree?
Even his smile at the end is as if to say a reassuring.."See you can do it!" 
This guy is a good example of how to put the uuummph in Tango.
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
?


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 23 13:42:55 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:42:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
In-Reply-To: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <278237.4489.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 11/23/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jorge Firpo, here, is?giving a demo at his class. The
> woman is not even named and so it is probably an advanced student.? I really like this dance. It is plain to see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic.. There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman contributing because she looks darn good, too!? 


Mario, dude, is it necessary to add snide remarks to your posts?  They really take away from your message, which I assume is actually about tango.

As to your question, the dance is a partnership and the quality of the woman's dance frees up the man to dance as he pleases.  A woman can also inspire the man to dance.  The reverse is also true.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      


From martin at waxman.net  Sun Nov 23 14:05:50 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:05:50 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
In-Reply-To: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081123134853.01df4660@waxman.net>

At 12:44 PM 11/23/2008, Mario wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA
>Jorge Firpo, here, is giving a demo at his class. ...of course I 
>will await and ignore the put-downs that will be posted
>by Tango snobs who think that the $1,200 I have already spent on 
>lessons isn't nearly
>enough to keep their economy chugging along.}

The amount of money you've spent on lessons has nothing to do with 
what you actually learned, what was useful in the lessons,
what you remembered correctly, or whether you got your money's worth.

Why is Firpo's left hand shielding his head from the overhead lights? 
Or, is that the Statue of Liberty embrace?

The lead leaves off after the mark; the follow begins when the lead 
is interpreted/understood.



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Nov 23 15:27:18 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:27:18 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
References: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46131F35EFE940DCA1334F8CB6AC5D67@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
You speculate too much. It's not relevant why the woman isn't named. What do you mean about the woman contributing. She contributes with every step. The dance looks good because both are trying to please the other.
I don't dance with my left arm above my shoulder as Jorge does. My muscles would get tired and then it would become a struggle to dance. This is a question of style and NOT a question of right vs. wrong. Everybody has their own style.

As far your question if half the women in the class could deliver as good or nearly as good an experience, that depends on the couple. This is a dance between two individuals who have different skills. Some are more expressive emotionally than others. It's ridiculous to think that dancers are as interchangeable as light bulbs; dancing with one partner is identical to dancing with another.


Michael
Washington, DC

I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA

Jorge Firpo, here, is giving a demo at his class. The woman is not even named
and so it is probably an advanced student. It is plain to see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic..There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman
contributing because she looks darn good, too! Would half the women in the class 
have been able to deliver as good or nearly as good an experience??? Is this a good
reason for a lead to be very deliberate about whom one chooses to dance with?



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 23 22:06:22 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:06:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??
References: <406514.33296.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081123134853.01df4660@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <186567.29774.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>
> 
> The lead leaves off after the mark; the follow begins when the lead 
> is interpreted/understood.
> 

I don't fully understand Martin's answer because he uses the words 
'mark' and 'lead' in the same sentence and I don't know whether he 
uses them with?the same meaning or not.?

In Ballroom,?the man?leads a step or a figure and?the lady 
interprets/understands it correctly because of her training and she 
dances it exactly as she's been trained to do. This works because 
the music has a strict tempo and all the figures are standard and 
have been learned and practiced?in every detail. I don't find Tango 
anything like that. When does the lead leave off? - almost never, IMHO. 
I lead the lady's step from start to finish and then, I lead the next step. 
How can it be any other way? Let's take the simplest thing in Tango - 
the forward Walk. Yes, I lead her backward step with a forward 
projection of my chest and the lady's foot starts to move because she 
understands the chest lead. But do I then? 'leave off''.??No, I follow through 
and lead her through the full extent of her step and she doesn't put her 
foot down until l lead her to do so. Perhaps, this is what Martin means 
by 'mark'. The lady then doesn't bring her feet together [collection] to 
complete the step until I lead her to do so, all at the exact speed and 
timing?that I want. 

IMHO, most of the time, and yes there are always exceptions, but 
mostly the lady doesn't need to interpret anything. She won't know 
exactly what she's actually supposed to do until she's already done it. 
We'll, that's my opinion. And if we want to go back to 'pet hates', another 
of mine would be 'ladies who try to interpret my lead' rather than waiting 
until she knows exactly what I want. I don't want to come across as a 
male chauvinist who controls every aspect of the dance. I do give the 
lady time to enjoy the things that ladies enjoy but I?also lead the timing 
for that - while always listening to the lady, of course.
?
Jack


      



From skindance at juno.com  Sun Nov 23 22:28:58 2008
From: skindance at juno.com (skindance)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 22:28:58 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Article on Argentina
Message-ID: <492A1F7A.5050508@juno.com>

Some of you may find this thia 11/23/08 Wash. Times Commentary 
interesting. It is at:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/23/dont-cry-for-free-argentina/
____________________________________________________________
Click here for free information on nursing degrees, up to $150/hour
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bNH3GwrJNC2qMfPCU8AnjXhzDFAStwiQnENmGZkScaSjwW/

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 15:40:33 2008
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:40:33 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
In-Reply-To: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>
References: <cb0.321936ee.36572017@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0811201240i6be18cbctc130da1cba742ea5@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of barridas, sweeps and drags...
How do Argentinians define the difference between a barrida and an arrastre?
I've heard one teacher saying that an arrastre is when the foot goes
linear past the lady's standing foot, while a barrida is when the
swept foot goes around the lady who is pivoting on the standing foot.
However, most others show the linear move and call it a barrida.

Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 24 11:24:07 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:24:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado an extinct creature?
Message-ID: <730050.95529.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?
I recently received this information off line from someone who seems to know his stuff.
It is about the Abrazo Apilado and I was quite suprised by what I read;
?
" Mario, the use of the apilado embrace outside a few specific moves is very controversial.? I think few, if any, use it throughout a dance.? It is used in specific moves, like those involving the tent such as the volcada, push, et al.? It may be used more in performance Tango, but I don't see it in most social Tango (except for those few specific moves)." - el 
?
Maybe, this is the problem I had been having for so long with my lead...is anyone dancing
apilado all the time?? 
All opinions on this will be appreciated...I just want to say that my three best experiences
dancing Tango were when I danced the Milonga with three different experienced dancers 
and we definately used apilado (one axis) for the entire dance each time...? I've been looking for a similar experience since but maybe I'm chasing the phantom of the opera??
?
?


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 24 12:23:32 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:23:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Barridas, sweeps, drags, etc
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0811201240i6be18cbctc130da1cba742ea5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <893541.26333.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 11/20/08, Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Speaking of barridas, sweeps and drags...
> How do Argentinians define the difference between a barrida
> and an arrastre?  I've heard one teacher saying that an arrastre is when
> the foot goes linear past the lady's standing foot, while a barrida
> is when the swept foot goes around the lady who is pivoting on the
> standing foot. However, most others show the linear move and call it a
> barrida.


Interesting question, Sergey.  I did a check on the Tango-L archives.  The earliest use I could find of the term "arrastre" was in 1996 when Ernesto asked the same thing.  He didn't get a clear answer, either.  The concensus seemed to be that the terms were interchangeable, though that could very well be out of ignorance than an informed opinion (e.g. there was a suggesion that a lleveda was the same as a barrida, but it's not.)Others in that thread were even questioning standardizing terminology.

Searches through later 1997 and 1998 indicate that "arrastre" was a common term.  It was also the term Daniel Trenner used in his teaching videos (specifically vol. 3) and workshops.  I don't have his videos, so I don't know what he shows.

However, a detailed post describing a 1998 workshop by Pablo Pugliese on arrastre's (toward the bottom of the page) might offer you a clue, as well as, give you a pointer on arrastres.
http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/1998/msg00031.html

The ladies position is not mentioned.  However, if we assume that Pugliese's final position indicates the final desired position of the woman (they would be facing each other), then it would seem that the usage suggested to you would certainly fit.  

In fact, the words "drag" and "sweep" is most often used as your teacher described.  "Arrastre" translates to "drag" and "barrida" translates to sweep.  I do remember the two terms being used differently (as your teacher described) when I first learned the moves in the mid/late 90's.

My guess is that the term "barrida" rose in popularity, at least in the U.S. because it's a lot easier to say.  Also, tango dictionaries do not differentiate the two.  Since these dictionaries were not put together by professionals in the field (linguists?), they might not stand up to rigorous testing.

Hope this helps.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Mon Nov 24 12:42:33 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:42:33 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Article on Argentina
In-Reply-To: <492A1F7A.5050508@juno.com>
References: <492A1F7A.5050508@juno.com>
Message-ID: <492AE789.5090600@tangobar-productions.com>

Except for references to more recent governments, this article could 
have been written in the 1980s. When we were there in 2006
the potholes and sidewalks had noticeably improved compared to the '90s. 
So, they've deteriorated.again? And the villas miserias
were much in evidence in the '80s and '90s. I think they were hidden 
from view on the highway from the airport sometime in the '90s
but doubt they ever disappeared. We have a  close friend (non-tango) who 
is a teacher and specialist in agricultural economy who
has had a very difficult time financially during most of time we've 
known him (since 1990)

The article is deja vu all over again. Any comments from Tango-Listers 
living for many years in
the Capital?
Barbara


skindance wrote:

>Some of you may find this thia 11/23/08 Wash. Times Commentary 
>interesting. It is at:
>
>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/23/dont-cry-for-free-argentina/
>____________________________________________________________
>Click here for free information on nursing degrees, up to $150/hour
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bNH3GwrJNC2qMfPCU8AnjXhzDFAStwiQnENmGZkScaSjwW/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1809 - Release Date: 11/24/2008 9:03 AM
>
>  
>


From buraktango at gmail.com  Mon Nov 24 12:52:50 2008
From: buraktango at gmail.com (burak ozkosem)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:52:50 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado an extinct creature?
In-Reply-To: <730050.95529.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <730050.95529.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <35ba58f10811240952y7ed5bf4fw2e61c1bdc6a00f62@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mario,
I'm hoping that you are dancing Tango as intensive as posting to
tango-L, here is my perspective on Apilado style.

The major obstacle for Apilado is the tango embrace itself. If you
take a longitudinal section of the embrace, you will see that by
drawing a line from the axis to the left end(inside) of the embrace
and right end(outside) of the embrace,  left and right arms have
totally different angles between partners.

Outside of the embrace is closer than inside of the embrace. This is
one of the reasons why Argentine Tango is a "right handed" dance which
causes the counter clock wise "ronda" as the line of dance.
Since the distance between outside shoulders and inside shoulders is
not the same, this makes the "button to button" closing or chest to
chest closing more difficult and uncomfortable for several body types.

Of course there are several ways to  fix this issue, for instance, you
can break the embrace, so shoulders can align with same distance
between the partners.

Other obstacles:
 -The effect of height/weight proportion differences.
 -Very limited Tango Vocabulary which also causes repetition and lack
of tools to improvise.
 -Very limited sight for leader (right eye blindfolded)
 -Very good musicality required (which not many leaders have)
 -Fragile posture/body alignment

All these obstacle make Apilado style very specific and difficult.

BTW: I don't know where you got the idea of "one axis" in Apilado,
there is no such thing unless you hold your partner on top of your
head while you are dancing or she is stepping on your shoes all the
time during the dance.

Burak
Chicago

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I recently received this information off line from someone who seems to know his stuff.
> It is about the Abrazo Apilado and I was quite suprised by what I read;
>
> " Mario, the use of the apilado embrace outside a few specific moves is very controversial.  I think few, if any, use it throughout a dance.  It is used in specific moves, like those involving the tent such as the volcada, push, et al.  It may be used more in performance Tango, but I don't see it in most social Tango (except for those few specific moves)." - el
>
> Maybe, this is the problem I had been having for so long with my lead...is anyone dancing
> apilado all the time?
> All opinions on this will be appreciated...I just want to say that my three best experiences
> dancing Tango were when I danced the Milonga with three different experienced dancers
> and we definately used apilado (one axis) for the entire dance each time...  I've been looking for a similar experience since but maybe I'm chasing the phantom of the opera??
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 24 13:13:08 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:13:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

Since there's been some reference to tango being changed to whatever the users want it to be recently, I've been thinking of the factors that cause tango or dance to evolve.  While I agree with many that tango does evolve, I don't believe that it happens willy-nilly.  That anybody can decide what happens.

So what has prompted tango to evolve in the past?  Women's fashion changes.  Changes in the music.  Space limitations.  Changes in teaching methods.

Here's an old tango-L post that describes the influence of Petroleo.
http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg01480.html
Notice that the changes mentioned improved the dance.  They were not changes for changes sake.

All of this indicates to me that lasting evolutionary changes to tango involve something fundamental that create an organic change.  The work of Pulpo did, for example, is merely an extension of basic tango technique that, but it still follows the core principles of tango.

What is tango at it's heart?  To answer that I asked myself what could I strip away from the dance and still call it tango.  Could I strip away boleos?  Yes.  Could I strip away improvisation?  No.  Could I trade away connection or musicality?  No.  I came up with a few characteristics that I think describe tango at it's heart:

- A Walk
- Physical Contact through an embrace
- Emotional connection
- Improvisation
- Lead/follow
- Musicality
- Elegance

If I had to give a prototype to a beginner about what tango is, it would include these characteristics.  Perhaps a short video of Miguel Zotto and Milena Plebs simply walking elegantly to the music.

As tango evolves, I see the above-mentioned elements as necessary ingredients of the dance.  The quality of these things might change from person to person, but I don't think that anyone would really be willing to sacrifice any of these elements.  Yet, people will do so inadvertently.  Is this still tango?  I would say yes, but it wouldn't be good tango.  It wouldn't be the prototype that you could show to a beginner and say "this is tango" in a way that is meaningful.

So while I do think that tango evolves, I would say to be aware of evolutionary changes versus passing fancies.  Comments?

Trini de Pittsburgh














      

From MACFroggy at aol.com  Mon Nov 24 16:01:56 2008
From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:01:56 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Article on Argentina
Message-ID: <d22.2f7e1fb0.365c7044@aol.com>

Hi Barbara,
Since you asked, here's what I posted on my blog:

I don't agree with all of Lesser's points of view, about how Argentina 
(Buenos Aires) is so different from the U.S.

For example, Argentinians are ethnically similar, but tend to live in 
"ethnic" barrios where they speak their original languages at home. Excuse me? What 
about the Little Italys, Mexican and Cuban barrios, Little Tokyos, China Towns, 
the black ghettos that still exist today, Armenian, Jewish neighborhoods 
(such as Fairfax in L.A.) etc. that are found in most large U.S. cities?

His points about the increase of crime and the disappearance of the middle 
class could be about any big city. He talks about two economies--one for the 
rich and one for the poor. This is new?
About how school teachers and other professionals in Argentina have to work 
more than one job. Hello? This has been true in the States for quite a while 
now for corporations and institutions to avoid paying benefits and a standard 
wage. Everyone is an "independent contractor."

But Lesser is so right about the corruption of Argentine governments, and 
perhaps that's the reason for all its problems in 2008. No, the people don't plan 
ahead, no, they really don't care to work very much or hard, no, they have no 
hope for the future. But is it their fault?

I do agree with Lesser's conclusions. And some of his points are very 
thought-provoking. It's well worth a read.

Saludos!
cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ 


**************
Check out smokin? hot deals on 
laptops, desktops and more from Dell.  Shop Deals 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1213345834x1200842686/aol?redir=http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;
209513277;31396581;l)

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 24 16:09:26 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:09:26 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>

I would add:

Changes in culture in Argentina itself
Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures
A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
Argentineans)
-whether reinterpretation of the classics
-nuevo
Women wanting to lead
Gay tango



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:13 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

So what has prompted tango to evolve in the past?  Women's fashion changes.
Changes in the music.  Space limitations.  Changes in teaching methods.


From nina at earthnet.net  Mon Nov 24 16:41:28 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:41:28 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081124144128.20337r18x3wg85us@webmail.earthnet.net>

Vince is right.  Those are the big changes and they result in the  
changes in tango.

And I would add (with lots of sarcasm and disappointment:):
- bad dancing (like leading a beginner woman that barely learned to  
walk in tango to do a volcada).  In the past, men would never allow  
themselves to be seen by women as failures in tango, so they would not  
dare to try something that would most definitely fail, either to their  
own or the woman's lack of skills.
- lack of polite, socially acceptable behavior - How about saying  
hello and goodbye?  It helps the quantity and quality of dancing.  In  
the past, if you forgot to say hello to someone you dance with in  
BsAs, that person would not dance with you for three months.   
Offending people is nmot a good idea, but now people do it all the time.
- high anxiety and fear about not-dancing at events.
- lack of knowledge and/or understanding of music.
- lack of standards (anything goes).
- changes in values (feeling vs. non-feeling technique, etc.).
I need to stop here or I will start complaining!:)

Tango reflects the people that dance it.  Just look at the people of  
different eras (in BsAs) - what they talk about, how they dress, how  
they dance. how they treat each other in the milongas - and the  
evolution of tango becomes revealed.

All the best,

Nina



Quoting Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>:

> I would add:
>
> Changes in culture in Argentina itself
> Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures
> A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> Argentineans)
> -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> -nuevo
> Women wanting to lead
> Gay tango
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:13 AM
> To: Tango-L
> Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
>
> So what has prompted tango to evolve in the past?  Women's fashion changes.
> Changes in the music.  Space limitations.  Changes in teaching methods.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>




From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 24 16:48:48 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:48:48 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <BLU119-W42DCC1A46CCD01C77B911791080@phx.gbl>


Trini de Pittsburgh wrote: 

- Elegance

The best tango dancers are indeed very elegant.  But I question how much of this is style, 
and how much is simply practical.  I.e. 

It works best if: 

1.  I keep my head up.  That way I don't bump into others. 
2.  I walk with my chest forward and step off a straight leg.  That way the woman really 
    feels my intention.
3.  I step straight ahead, and not wander around.  That way I am not pulling the woman 
    off her axis without intention.
4.  I keep my left hand relatively still and positioned just so.  That way the woman 
    is comfortable, and the information that I convey to her is not confounded with 
    noise coming from a waving/pumping arm.

Etc.  Sounds quite practical, yet as a byproduct, quite elegant.


David

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 24 22:02:43 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:02:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <435288.25825.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

OK, I'm confused.

> From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net>
> 
> Vince is right.? Those are the big changes and they result in the? 
> changes in tango.
> 

Vince and Nina agree - except that I get the impression that the factors listed by Vince as causes for change are approved of by Vince but not by Nina. I agree with Nina. I come from a time and place that is totally different to the one we live in today. Was it better? I know I shouldn't say it but?- oh yeah, it was better. 

And then we have:
?
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> 
> The best tango dancers are indeed very elegant.? But I question how much of this 
> is style, 
> and how much is simply practical.?? 
> 

Again there's agreement but disagreement. David thinks elegance is a by-product of functionality and good technique?while Trini thinks it's due to conciously adopting a good style. Again, I'm siding with the lady. David, just look at people?in their everyday lives; they function perfectly well; they don't bump into each other, they don't walk into walls or trip up and they even manage to walk hand-in-hand or arm-in-arm.?But they have none of the?elegance of a dancer. 
?
Jack


      



From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 01:14:01 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:14:01 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I would add:
>
> Changes in culture in Argentina itself

Please be specific. Tango social dance culture has had incredibly
consistency over time.

> Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures

Affects part of Argentine tango culture that caters to tourists, much
less so that part of tango culture that attracts porten~os.

> A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> Argentineans)

How many of these are there? Maybe the ones who don't dance tango,
instead dance salsa. Even nuevo dancers in or from Buenos Aires dance
mostly to traditional (30s-50s) tango music.

> -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> -nuevo

Danced mainly in Villa Malcolm, Practica X.

> Women wanting to lead
> Gay tango

Yes, in gay milongas (La Marshal the only one to persist). Same sex
partners or sex reversed partners are almost non-existent in Buenos
Aires outside gay milongas.

Most of these changes in tango are occurring outside Argentina, where
dancers modify tango to their own cultural norms. At some point of
change, it is no longer Argentine tango.

Ron


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:13 AM
> To: Tango-L
> Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
>
> So what has prompted tango to evolve in the past?  Women's fashion changes.
> Changes in the music.  Space limitations.  Changes in teaching methods.
>

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 25 02:01:38 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:01:38 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	
	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>



-----Original Message-----
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois [mailto:tango.society at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:14 PM
To: Vince Bagusauskas
Cc: patangos at yahoo.com; Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I would add:
>
> Changes in culture in Argentina itself

>Please be specific. Tango social dance culture has had incredibly
consistency over time.


Disagree. Fact the culture of Argentina has changed, therefore that will
have an influence on how tango is danced.



> Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures

>Affects part of Argentine tango culture that caters to tourists, much
less so that part of tango culture that attracts porten~os.

Not all tango dancers are tourists and/or have been to BA.  Therefore how
tango is danced in that culture is a reflection of that culture. 


> A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> Argentineans)

>How many of these are there? Maybe the ones who don't dance tango,


I have spoken to young Argentininas who have danced tango since they are
babies (virtually) and go to many milongas in BA and see how the youngers
dance, dress and behave. 


>instead dance salsa. Even nuevo dancers in or from Buenos Aires dance
mostly to traditional (30s-50s) tango music.

But not in all cultures!  See above.


> -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> -nuevo

>Danced mainly in Villa Malcolm, Practica X.

Your point?  This would never have been done in the Golden Age.  So the
influence of this will have an impact.


> Women wanting to lead
> Gay tango

>Yes, in gay milongas (La Marshal the only one to persist). Same sex
partners or sex reversed partners are almost non-existent in Buenos
Aires outside gay milongas.

So?   Happens a lot in other cultures.


>Most of these changes in tango are occurring outside Argentina, where
dancers modify tango to their own cultural norms. At some point of
change, it is no longer Argentine tango.


Your desire is that real Argentinian Tango must be rooted in the Golden Age.
The point of this post is has tango evolved?


From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Nov 25 06:06:33 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:06:33 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>

If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and 
evolving tango, they should stop calling it "Argentine" and call it 
something else instead, like "no longer Argentine tango", or 
something like that.

The ballroom dancers that took tango, cleaned it up and made it their 
own at least had the decency to be honest about it and gave it its 
own name - American or European tango, instead of claiming that it 
continues to be Argentine tango, only  new and improved.

Maybe Argentine tango can be distinguished in all of its 
manifestations by labeling the version - do you dance Argentine tango 
1.0 (tango antiguo) or 10.1 (never been to Argentina ) version? :)

Nina


At 12:01 AM 11/25/2008, Vince Bagusauskas wrote:


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tango Society of Central Illinois [mailto:tango.society at gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 5:14 PM
>To: Vince Bagusauskas
>Cc: patangos at yahoo.com; Tango-L
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
>
>On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> > I would add:
> >
> > Changes in culture in Argentina itself
>
> >Please be specific. Tango social dance culture has had incredibly
>consistency over time.
>
>
>Disagree. Fact the culture of Argentina has changed, therefore that will
>have an influence on how tango is danced.
>
>
>
> > Tango spreading across the world to non-Argentinean cultures
>
> >Affects part of Argentine tango culture that caters to tourists, much
>less so that part of tango culture that attracts porten~os.
>
>Not all tango dancers are tourists and/or have been to BA.  Therefore how
>tango is danced in that culture is a reflection of that culture.
>
>
> > A younger audience who don't dance to grandmas music (a quote from real
> > Argentineans)
>
> >How many of these are there? Maybe the ones who don't dance tango,
>
>
>I have spoken to young Argentininas who have danced tango since they are
>babies (virtually) and go to many milongas in BA and see how the youngers
>dance, dress and behave.
>
>
> >instead dance salsa. Even nuevo dancers in or from Buenos Aires dance
>mostly to traditional (30s-50s) tango music.
>
>But not in all cultures!  See above.
>
>
> > -whether reinterpretation of the classics
> > -nuevo
>
> >Danced mainly in Villa Malcolm, Practica X.
>
>Your point?  This would never have been done in the Golden Age.  So the
>influence of this will have an impact.
>
>
> > Women wanting to lead
> > Gay tango
>
> >Yes, in gay milongas (La Marshal the only one to persist). Same sex
>partners or sex reversed partners are almost non-existent in Buenos
>Aires outside gay milongas.
>
>So?   Happens a lot in other cultures.
>
>
> >Most of these changes in tango are occurring outside Argentina, where
>dancers modify tango to their own cultural norms. At some point of
>change, it is no longer Argentine tango.
>
>
>Your desire is that real Argentinian Tango must be rooted in the Golden Age.
>The point of this post is has tango evolved?
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Tue Nov 25 11:30:15 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:30:15 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <492C2817.8020306@tangobar-productions.com>

As an unrepentent traditionalist, I have only a small bone to pick with 
Nina. I don't think that a trip
to Argentina makes or breaks the ability and/or desire to dance real 
tango. I know several couples who dance
traditional tango beautifully who have never been to BsAs. (Students of 
ours who have been thoroly
brainwashed  :-)  (Well, I've always wanted to be called arrogant!)  It 
takes more than tourism to 
make the distinction   -- or the choice.
Abrazos,
Barbara

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:

>Maybe Argentine tango can be distinguished in all of its 
>manifestations by labeling the version - do you dance Argentine tango 
>1.0 (tango antiguo) or 10.1 (never been to Argentina ) version? :)
>
>Nina
>
>  
>


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 25 12:29:16 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:29:16 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <BLU119-W70F77E86F6F638915860F910B0@phx.gbl>


Nina wrote: 
"If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and 
evolving tango, they should stop calling it "Argentine" and call it 
something else instead, like "no longer Argentine tango", or 
something like that."

If asked what language I speak, I generally say English.  I don't say 21st century American- 
English with both NYC and West Coast influences, and with a smidgen of south Louisiana creole 
influence for lagniappe.  That would sound silly and rather pedantic to my ears. 

So what do you say?

David.

_________________________________________________________________
Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 25 13:25:28 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:25:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] BAILAN MARY y JORGE Gutman
Message-ID: <460231.28718.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think that Swiss-French written English deserves a warning label or user instructions.
?also, reading?New Zealand English?Newpapers will likely send you back 150 years..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
Anyway, here is a jewel of a tango video ...the sound gets distorted near the end
but it's well worth watching ...this is the kind of video that I can learn from.? 
(If you had the guts to?dance in?a video Astrid, perhaps I could learn from you, too.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI


      

From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 15:02:45 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:02:45 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Silly and pedantic Argentine Tango
Message-ID: <cff24c340811251202o3057ba1dn3b5d98c226aa4c72@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:29 AM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nina wrote:
> "If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and
> evolving tango, they should stop calling it "Argentine" and call it
> something else instead, like "no longer Argentine tango", or
> something like that."
>
> If asked what language I speak, I generally say English.  I don't say 21st century American-
> English with both NYC and West Coast influences, and with a smidgen of south Louisiana creole
> influence for lagniappe.  That would sound silly and rather pedantic to my ears.
>
> So what do you say?
>
> David.


There is American English and there is British English, as well as
other versions of English. For example, within the US there is
Standard American English (presumably taught in the schools), there is
Black English, and there are regional dialects, the one used in the
southern US beging the most distinctive. The common denominator is
tracing the origin of these versions to a common ancestral language
whose origin was in England (thus "English"). A speaker of Standard
American English may have some difficulty communicating with someone
speaking British English,.Black English, or Southern English.

Likewise, there is Argentine tango that is danced in Argentina. It
resembles closely an ancestral form danced 60 years ago in Buenos
Aires. Argentines differentiate Tango de Salon, that which is danced
is danced socially in the milongas of Buenos Aires, and Tango
Fantasia, which is danced for exhibition, i.e., not as a social dance.
In the past 15 years Nuevo (Tango) has evolved from roots in Tango de
Salon and Tango Fantasia. It resembles in some respects Tango Fantasia
but is distinctly different from Tango de Salon in its emphasis on
expanding movement possibilities. There are also derivatives of
Argentine Tango developed outside of Argentina. There is Ballroom
Tango, with at least 2 versions - American Ballroom Tango and
International Tango. There is also Finnish Tango. These foreign
derivatives have largely distinct niches. In Buenos Aires, Tango de
Salon and Tango Fantasia / Nuevo have largely separate niches.

It is only outside Argentine that Tango de Salon and Fantasia / Nuevo
try to occupy the same niche. However, because the inherent
characteristics of the dance (connection / musicality vs.movement
expansion) are so different and the technique of these different
versions of tango is different at important points, there are
difficulties in communication when the different tangos are mixed.

Thus, in milongas outside Buenos Aires, there is often a veritable
Tango Tower of Babel on the dance floor.

Ron

From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 25 15:19:25 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:19:25 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340811251202o3057ba1dn3b5d98c226aa4c72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340811251202o3057ba1dn3b5d98c226aa4c72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV7C7FA11D9A69C7FE72B65AE0B0@phx.gbl>

So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Tango Society of Central Illinois
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 7:03 AM
To: tango-l
Subject: [Tango-L] Silly and pedantic Argentine Tango

Likewise, there is Argentine tango that is danced in Argentina. It
***resembles_closely_an_ancestral_form*** danced 60 years ago in Buenos
Aires. Argentines differentiate Tango de Salon, that which is danced
is danced socially in the milongas of Buenos Aires, and Tango
Fantasia, which is danced for exhibition, i.e., not as a social dance.


From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 15:47:45 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:47:45 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV7C7FA11D9A69C7FE72B65AE0B0@phx.gbl>
References: <cff24c340811251202o3057ba1dn3b5d98c226aa4c72@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DAV7C7FA11D9A69C7FE72B65AE0B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cff24c340811251247g72e3fdb0k524fa314f9862135@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
> applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

Vince,

There are milongueros dancing today who danced 50-60 years ago. They
are representatives of that era. Some are learning from the
instruction of those milongueros who teach. Many more are learning by
observing milongueros in the milongas. Although many dancers in the
milongas of Buenos Aires lack the skills of milongueros, they dance in
a similar manner, in a close embrace, staying in the line of dance,
keeping their feet close to the floor, paying close attention to and
improvising on the music. These are characteristics of the dance that
have remained constant over time in Tango de Salon.

In Nuevo the embrace is elastic, feet are lifted off the floor, and
improvisation in movement does not restrict the dancer to staying
within a progressive line of dance. Oftentimes the structure of the
music is ignored. This is a fundamentally different dance.

Ron


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Tango Society of Central Illinois
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 7:03 AM
> To: tango-l
> Subject: [Tango-L] Silly and pedantic Argentine Tango
>
> Likewise, there is Argentine tango that is danced in Argentina. It
> ***resembles_closely_an_ancestral_form*** danced 60 years ago in Buenos
> Aires. Argentines differentiate Tango de Salon, that which is danced
> is danced socially in the milongas of Buenos Aires, and Tango
> Fantasia, which is danced for exhibition, i.e., not as a social dance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From Crrtango at aol.com  Tue Nov 25 16:34:12 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:34:12 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <ccd.485bdd29.365dc954@aol.com>

Vince Wrote;

> So Ron, when you aspire to do Argentine Tango you mean Tango de Salon as it
> applies now in BA or as it was 60 years ago?

Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as 
it was then anyway.   Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that 
much, if at all. It is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo and 
many of the great ones did in that era.   In the tango revival, post-1984, its 
popularity may have diminished with the surge of nuevo and other styles, but 
it is still alive and well.   It is not retro.

Cheers,
Charles



**************
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, 
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com 
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp
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From antonst at alidas.com.au  Tue Nov 25 21:35:11 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:35:11 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Is it English or not.
In-Reply-To: <94D95AE6BD0E4ED9868EFF5F71BFD55E@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF7BB@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

David wrote:
"If asked what language I speak, I generally say English.  I don't say
21st century American- 
English with both NYC and West Coast influences, and with a smidgen of
south Louisiana creole 
influence for lagniappe.  That would sound silly and rather pedantic to
my ears."


But it's only English if the English can understand you. Otherwise it's
no longer English, or alternatively they have changed their English so
that others cannot understand, in which case can they still claim it to
be english? So change Tango enough etc etc.

Anton


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 00:39:33 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:39:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <837795.38936.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Thanks Charles:

> From: "Crrtango at aol.com" <Crrtango at aol.com>
> 
> Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as 
> it was then anyway.? Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that 
> much, if at all. > 


And Ron:



> From: Tango Society of Central Illinois tango.society at gmail.com

>? Although many dancers in the
> milongas of Buenos Aires lack the skills of milongueros, they dance in
> a similar manner, in a close embrace, staying in the line of dance,
> keeping their feet close to the floor, paying close attention to and
> improvising on the music. These are characteristics of the dance that
> have remained constant over time in Tango de Salon.
> 

I'm sure many people get sick of hearing what you guys say, but it's true 
and the message needs to be kept alive. I'm one of those who believes that 
it's not possible to truly understand Tango without regular visits to BsAs to 
dance in the milongas and to see what it really is. Yes, you can love Tango
as a dance, and often that's enough,?but really understanding it is something 
else. Having said that, I often wonder whether it's possible to truly understand
Tango without being Argentine. But we can always try.

Jack


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 00:57:29 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>
	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>
	<492C2817.8020306@tangobar-productions.com>
Message-ID: <16838.79431.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Barbara,

I'd like to agree with you but, if the couples haven't been to Argentina, 
how can they actually KNOW what real tango is? I'm sure you do know 
couples who dance?traditional tango beautifully without visiting Argentina 
but I suspect it's because they like you and they like the way you dance 
and teach and, yes, maybe they're also a little brainwashed :-). But I've 
found that people like this, especially when your influence is no longer 
around, can be easily swayed to try out the next fad that passes through 
town.?This doesn't seem to happen to those who have made the trip to BsAs.

Jack



> From: Barbara Garvey <barbara at tangobar-productions.com>
>?I don't think that a trip
> to Argentina makes or breaks the ability and/or desire to dance real 
> tango. > 


      



From clif at clifdavis.com  Wed Nov 26 01:12:44 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:12:44 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <16838.79431.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>	<7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>	<492C2817.8020306@tangobar-productions.com>
	<16838.79431.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004901c94f8e$02ad1e20$08075a60$@com>

Speaking only for myself, I am not sure why I would want to spend the 2 or 3
thousand dollars to go somewhere and possibly not get to dance at all. I
mean, with all the rules that need to be followed and all the sitting around
that needs to be done in order to "learn" at the feet of the masters, I am
not sure I have the time or the money that is required. Not to mention the
patience to sit there and see people who may or may not be dancing the way I
want to. Add to that the elite snobbery that seems to prevail in most of the
venues. I think I will pass. 

With the seemingly prevailing attitude of the "true" Tango folks that exist,
I wonder how this dance got where it is now. 
It truly reminds me of the old martial arts world when you weren't
recognized as a "true" martial artist if you weren't taking or hadn't gotten
your rank from one of the "true" masters. Funny thing is, after retiring
from martial arts for 20 years and returning, it is still the same kicks and
punches I did all those many years ago.

I think to much time is spent on what is "thought" about the dance as
opposed to dancing it. 
If we think about the true beginnings of the dance, it was danced by punks
who wanted to have the coolest moves and teach their girls how to attract
more men. Then we have the "old masters" who invented their own styles. If
there is only one "true" style, who's is it. All of the old names and
"master teachers" who did their own thing. 

It is no different than Mas Oyama going up into the mountains and coming
back after 5 years with a new style of Karate. 

Hey, lets have a contest. Everyone who thinks they have the answer to "the
best tango", post your video and let's see how it works for you.

Just a thought.
Clif


From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Wed Nov 26 02:42:38 2008
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:42:38 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is it English etc. Is it Tango? Etc.
Message-ID: <492CFDEE.000007.02372@OEM-COMPUTER>

Mario wrote: 
> Also, reading New Zealand English Newpapers will likely send you back 150
years.

Wow ..... I thought we were only ten years behind!!
But what are you doing reading our newspapers!!! 
You should be studying that Youtube Tango stuff.

Thanks .....Mel.    NZ    (New Zealand).

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 26 07:34:45 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:34:45 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <16838.79431.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <187270.69689.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>	<BAY102-DAV10C8C59729A7227733C066AE080@phx.gbl>	<cff24c340811242214s5bf5e013if4ad0f3ba5b1c6d2@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY102-DAV34D3B6DF891FA42A9F5FFAE0B0@phx.gbl>	<7.0.1.0.1.20081125034711.01aee2e0@earthnet.net>	<492C2817.8020306@tangobar-productions.com>
	<16838.79431.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV4731AFB560DBB3049D939AE0A0@phx.gbl>

Are there any Argentines living and breathing tango on BA posting here and
giving their own impressions of tango in their city?



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jack Dylan
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 4:57 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

Barbara,

I'd like to agree with you but, if the couples haven't been to Argentina, 


From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed Nov 26 08:35:04 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:35:04 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <cb1.33c2c527.365eaa88@aol.com>


In a message dated 11/25/08 9:40:23 PM, jackdylan007 at yahoo.com writes:


> Having said that, I often wonder whether it's possible to truly understand
> Tango without being Argentine. But we can always try.
> 
It is possible, but it presupposes a respect for the tradition, culture, and 
history of the dance.   My experience has been that they respect and applaud 
good dancers, no matter where you are from.   

Cheers,
Charles 


**************
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social 
networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com 
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?opti
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 12:33:21 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:33:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <556866.80615.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Someone asked that I post a youtube video of Miguel and Milena.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFkVrTJ_Ig&NR=1

That first opening walk to the cross.  Isn't that what we think about when "tango" pops in our heads?  If we want to share with someone quintessential tango, isn't this it?

Get too far away from this idea, and it isn't Argentine tango.  What I'm saying is that there is a definite concept of tango, despite people saying that Argentine tango could be anything.  It's not.

At some point, a version of Argentine tango became Finnish tango.  A version of Argentine tango became International Ballroom tango.  It's quite possible that a version of Argentine tango is becoming another type of tango, a separate branch on the evolutionary chain.  Or could it be evolving in a direct line?  

In Simon Collier's book Tango!, he talks about the "evolutionary" branch of music (De Caro, Di Sarli, Troilo, Pugliese), the Avant-Garde (Piazzola, Salgan), and traditional branch (Canaro, D'Arienzo, Biagi).  Would a milonga be complete without both the evolutionary and the traditional branch of music?  Of course, not.

What about the Avant-Garde music?  I believe that that is where nuevo comes in.  If you watch Pulpo, Naviera, Salas, Chicho, etc, isn't this what they're dancing to?  It might have taken a bit of a detour (dancing to non-tango music) to get there, but they are dancing to Piazzola.

The use of non-tango music is what I think will be a passing fancy.  It's a temporary thing that could be used to help people figure out how to dance to Piazzola and Salgon.  In the same way, Susana Miller uses Brazilian music to help beginners dance traditional tango.  I've seen Piazzola being played at milongas recently, and it looks alright.  Years ago, I would cringe looking at the dance floor when Piazzola was played.  Now, looking at the those dancing to Piazzola, the dance fits the music.

Trini de Pittsburgh






      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 13:03:35 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:03:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] I'll show you mine if you show me your's
Message-ID: <105413.3550.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I liked the suggestion that we post our idea of 'THE best Tango'...here's mine;
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI
?
Eduardo Masci and Maria Plazaola.....an easy one.
?
?
? and then there's Japanese English, an oxymoron


      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 26 13:27:13 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:27:13 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <BLU119-W1623DA2E7FA6AED638ED5E910A0@phx.gbl>


Charles wrote:
"Actually the tango de salon that is danced today is pretty much the same as 
it was then anyway.   Tango de salon never went away nor really changed that 
much, if at all. It is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo and 
many of the great ones did in that era.... "

Interesting. 

http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/3petroleo.htm 

http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/11petroleofinal.htm

Is this how we should all look?  Hunched over with bent legs?  I'm not intending any disrespect, 
because, as you all probably know, I am one of those "nearly anything goes dancers."  But I do 
imagine that a number of regular posters to this list would find much to criticize about this 
style if it were to appear in their milonga today.  

Probably not even Argentine Tango.  Don'cha think? 

David



_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_access_112008

From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed Nov 26 14:03:24 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:03:24 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <be4.45db0b93.365ef77c@aol.com>

David wrote:

"Is this how we should all look?? Hunched over with bent legs?? I'm not 
intending any disrespect,
because, as you all probably know, I am one of those "nearly anything goes 
dancers."? But I do
imagine that a number of regular posters to this list would find much to 
criticize about this
style if it were to appear in their milonga today."?

Touche!   Admittedly, Petroleo is not the best example of elegance, but 
Virulazo is, or Chino, who is still dancing.   My mistake, I was grouping them more 
by generation.   Yes, Petroleo has more of his own personal, quirky style.   
In these photos (I have seen the video they are from.) he is dancing with 
someone shorter also.   But even so he is quite adept at performing intricate 
steps while in close embrace.   In a broader sense though, tango de salon includes 
close-embrace dancing in general, and not doing open-style figures, and my 
reference is to that also.   My larger point was that the close embrace 
tradition has never really gone away and is still danced the same today as it was 
then, including the personal styles of its interpreters.

Cheers,
Charles


**************
Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the 
NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&amp;icid=aolcom40vanity&amp;
ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 14:13:37 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:13:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Milonguero - Francesca y Massimiliano
Message-ID: <870259.28790.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deOpHgcHXKI
?
I posted this video before about a year ago...
nice clean style it's not everyone's cup of tea (as I heard off-line)
but I like it and see it as another great 'teaching/learning' video..
everything is plainly laid out by the well photographed dance
and the clean execution of the dance....good for follow as well as lead study.
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deOpHgcHXKI
..the reason that I am presently posting so much??
I'm now in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico and cannot find a practise partner..
not yet anyway...Argentine Tango anyone??


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 14:29:28 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:29:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <be4.45db0b93.365ef77c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <313231.64243.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 11/26/08, Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:
 
> Touche!   Admittedly, Petroleo is not the best example of
> elegance, but Virulazo is, or Chino, who is still dancing.   

I read the text in the second post, which was about the evolution of the embrace from a side embrace to a front embrace.  The argument regarding the photos is that the embrace had to change to reflect the musicality that Petroleo felt.  In that context, Petroleo's dance could be inelegant.  I don't know what year the video was taken, perhaps before the more modern-embrace was adopted by most.  The photos could be mixing apples and oranges.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From al at sgi.com  Wed Nov 26 17:23:56 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:23:56 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] [OFF-TOPIC] I'll show you mine if you show me your's
In-Reply-To: <105413.3550.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <105413.3550.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <492DCC7C.1070105@sgi.com>

Mario wrote:
> I liked the suggestion that we post our idea of 'THE best Tango'...here's mine;
>  
The subject line gets the price for Most Egregiously Placed Apostrophe. As guardian of
the Balance in the Apostrophe Universe, I must now cringe and exit the stage weeping.

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 26 17:33:40 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:33:40 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <BLU119-W64F9F97B276663404DB0E910A0@phx.gbl>


It appears to me that some on the list would have us believe that tango was born in the Golden Age and always had the set of 
attributes that we now associate with tango.  We walk around small, look elegant, are musical, keep our head and eyes up etc.  One 
of the interesting things about Petroleo, and indeed all of the first, or second, or third ... generation tango dancers is that many 
probably danced in a way that any number on this list would find objectionable and call "not Argentine".  I suggest that posters 
reflect on this 'ere they post remarks too critical of their fellow dancers and the way that they dance.  It can be insulting to 
those of us who chose not, or are simply unable, to dance like your favorite Porteno. 


Yours in dance, 
but perhaps not in YOUR dance, 

David

_________________________________________________________________
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From politas at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 17:57:23 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:57:23 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <556866.80615.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <556866.80615.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <492DD453.1040902@gmail.com>

Trini (PATangoS) wrote:
> 
> At some point, a version of Argentine tango became Finnish tango.  A
> version of Argentine tango became International Ballroom tango.  It's
> quite possible that a version of Argentine tango is becoming another
> type of tango, a separate branch on the evolutionary chain.  Or could
> it be evolving in a direct line?  

Except that now, there is less separation. Finnish and International 
Ballroom Tango diversified because there was a lack of regular 
communication to maintain the form (and probably a fair dose of 
Imperialist arrogance). But the modern "Argentine Tango" dance is shared 
around the world. I doubt there are many people dancing Tango who aren't 
at most one or two removes from teaching in Argentina. (ie, their 
teacher or themselves have learned from someone who has studied in 
Argentina)

But on the other hand, there are masses of Tango tourists going to BsAs 
every year, dancing in the milongas and doing classes. Surely 
occasionally, the locals will pick up something they like from a 
tourist, or while travelling overseas? Only occasionally, I'm sure, but 
there has to be some impact.

If so, then there ceases to be any absolute "purity" of Argentine Tango 
in Argentina itself, and it becomes a world dance. But I think Buenos 
Aires will remain the "Tango Mecca" for a long time to come.

Myk
in Canberra

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 26 23:35:39 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:35:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
References: <556866.80615.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <670415.12696.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Trini,

Thank you, thank you - absolutely magnificent! And did you notice 
how almost all the YouTube comments were in Spanish?

I saw Miguel Zotto in BsAs a few years ago. The audience, mostly
Argentine, went crazy. Miguel is a true tango icon.

Jack



> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> Someone asked that I post a youtube video of Miguel and Milena.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFkVrTJ_Ig&NR=1
> 



      


From rcgimmi at aol.com  Thu Nov 27 11:35:34 2008
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:35:34 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
Message-ID: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>

How many follows have felt like they had this guy for a lead? ? }:->



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI




I thought this was funny as all get out and the quality of the dancing was excellent. ?Does anyone know anything about the two dancers or where this was performed?








From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu Nov 27 11:49:07 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 01:49:07 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
In-Reply-To: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <492ECF83.5090204@ruby.plala.or.jp>

This guy is a classic and very famous for his clownish performance, I 
have forgotten his name right now, though. He gives me the creeps as a 
lead. I'd rather dance with a real vampire!

rcgimmi at aol.com wrote:
> How many follows have felt like they had this guy for a lead?   }:->
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI
>
>
>
>
> I thought this was funny as all get out and the quality of the dancing was excellent.  Does anyone know anything about the two dancers or where this was performed?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>   


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu Nov 27 11:54:38 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 01:54:38 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
In-Reply-To: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <492ED0CE.4090208@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Ah, remembered! This is Eduardo Capussi and... Mariana? Marisa? Buenos 
Aires. The youtube poster does not seem to have a clue, he has 
"ballroom" as a keyword in there.


rcgimmi at aol.com wrote:
> How many follows have felt like they had this guy for a lead?   }:->
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI
>
>
>
>
> I thought this was funny as all get out and the quality of the dancing was excellent.  Does anyone know anything about the two dancers or where this was performed?
>
>
>
>
>
>   


From tangopeter at gmx.de  Thu Nov 27 12:02:56 2008
From: tangopeter at gmx.de (Peter Turowski)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:02:56 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
References: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
	<492ED0CE.4090208@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <015901c950b2$02eb5df0$17b2a8c0@PC>


> Ah, remembered! This is Eduardo Capussi and... Mariana? Marisa? 

Mariana!
Flores!

;-)))

Regards
Peter

-- 
Peter Turowski
tangopeter at gmx.de
www.tangopeter.de

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 27 12:42:57 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:42:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
In-Reply-To: <492ED0CE.4090208@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <747938.36904.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




Mariana Flores......as it says at the beginning of the
clip - lower left hand corner



--- Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:

> Ah, remembered! This is Eduardo Capussi and...
> Mariana? Marisa? Buenos 
> Aires. The youtube poster does not seem to have a
> clue, he has 
> "ballroom" as a keyword in there.
> 
> 
> rcgimmi at aol.com wrote:
> > How many follows have felt like they had this guy
> for a lead?   }:->
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I thought this was funny as all get out and the
> quality of the dancing was excellent.  Does anyone
> know anything about the two dancers or where this
> was performed?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 27 20:49:26 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:49:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
References: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <336418.27126.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I took classes with?Eduardo Capussi and Mariana Flores back in 2000 [approx]. It was solid, traditional tango with lots of walking and simple figures - and it wasn't a beginner class. In 1995/96 my first teacher was Pablo Inza, who is now one of the leading Nuevo dancers, But, back then he was a super-traditional salon dancer in smart suit and short, slicked-back hair. I'm always reminded that all the so-called 'crazy dancers' from BsAs have a solid foundation in traditional tango and I wish others would follow that lead rather than jumping straight into Nuevo or Fantasia. Just a thought.

Jack




----- Original Message ----
> From: "rcgimmi at aol.com" <rcgimmi at aol.com>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:35:34 AM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
> 
> How many follows have felt like they had this guy for a lead? ? }:->
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was funny as all get out and the quality of the dancing was 
> excellent. ?Does anyone know anything about the two dancers or where this was 
> performed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 27 22:58:44 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:58:44 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <670415.12696.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <556866.80615.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<670415.12696.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W101B979CF5DFC5FE58ABF9A9040@phx.gbl>


I witnessed a  reaction similar to what Jack described when Miguel performed at a milonga in BsAs. You'd have thought he was a rock star or something. Frankly I couldn't quite understand it. His dancing always seems a little too cutesy and clever for my taste. But he is a genuinely warm and personable fellow, and that may be the explanation - he is loved for who he is more than for his dancing.

      J

 

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008

From donnay at donnay.net  Fri Nov 28 07:29:51 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:29:51 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <86560E6A33794338AA104F8CF5099E1B@TOSHIBATABLET>

Well, I am currently in Buenos Aires, and am seeing more and more "tango" performances in the milonga that have less and less Argentine tango in them, and more "Dancing with the Stars". Completely choreoghraphed, lots of lifts, less musicality - but the crowd loves it!

Monkey see, monkee do - Are these the moves we will be emulating in the future?

Buenos Aires has changed a lot since my first trip 10 years ago. Fashions, manners, body types - and these are people who are not surrounded by tourists all the time, as tango dancers are.

Loisa
Minneapolis, Minnesota

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Myk Dowling" <politas at gmail.com>


> Trini (PATangoS) wrote:
>>
>> At some point, a version of Argentine tango became Finnish tango.  A
>> version of Argentine tango became International Ballroom tango.  It's
>> quite possible that a version of Argentine tango is becoming another
>> type of tango, a separate branch on the evolutionary chain.  Or could
>> it be evolving in a direct line?
>
> Except that now, there is less separation. Finnish and International
> Ballroom Tango diversified because there was a lack of regular
> communication to maintain the form (and probably a fair dose of
> Imperialist arrogance). But the modern "Argentine Tango" dance is shared
> around the world. I doubt there are many people dancing Tango who aren't
> at most one or two removes from teaching in Argentina. (ie, their
> teacher or themselves have learned from someone who has studied in
> Argentina)
>
> But on the other hand, there are masses of Tango tourists going to BsAs
> every year, dancing in the milongas and doing classes. Surely
> occasionally, the locals will pick up something they like from a
> tourist, or while travelling overseas? Only occasionally, I'm sure, but
> there has to be some impact.

From vytis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 28 08:04:33 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:04:33 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <86560E6A33794338AA104F8CF5099E1B@TOSHIBATABLET>
References: <86560E6A33794338AA104F8CF5099E1B@TOSHIBATABLET>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV48FFBD6C89F3C88209CCFAE040@phx.gbl>

Splitters!

(with apologies to the "Life of Brian") 

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Lois Donnay
Sent: Friday, 28 November 2008 11:30 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves

Well, I am currently in Buenos Aires, and am seeing more and more "tango"
performances in the milonga that have less and less Argentine tango in them,
and more "Dancing with the Stars". Completely choreoghraphed, lots of lifts,
less musicality - but the crowd loves it!

Monkey see, monkee do - Are these the moves we will be emulating in the
future?

Buenos Aires has changed a lot since my first trip 10 years ago. Fashions,
manners, body types - and these are people who are not surrounded by
tourists all the time, as tango dancers are.

Loisa
Minneapolis, Minnesota


From Crrtango at aol.com  Fri Nov 28 08:05:49 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:05:49 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <bc8.42be6529.366146ad@aol.com>

 Lois Wrote:

"Well, I am currently in Buenos Aires, and am seeing more and more "tango" 
performances in the milonga that have less and less Argentine tango in them, and 
more "Dancing with the Stars"."

Are you referring to the general style of the dancing at the milonga or just 
the performances?   Last time I was there (eight months ago) I noticed that 
crowds and styles varied from night to night, even at the same location, 
according to who was the DJ/sponsor.   

Cheers,
Charles


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From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 28 12:11:08 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:11:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing
References: <8CB1EC54E51C1B4-9FC-503@WEBMAIL-MB13.sysops.aol.com>
	<492ED0CE.4090208@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <203579.87978.qm@web90604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

.... Mariana Flores...and FYI- Eduardo is a great leader on the social dance floor !
I.



________________________________
From: Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp>
To: rcgimmi at aol.com
Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:54:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Good Fun, Excellent Dancing

Ah, remembered! This is Eduardo Capussi and... Mariana? Marisa? Buenos 
Aires. The youtube poster does not seem to have a clue, he has 
"ballroom" as a keyword in there.


rcgimmi at aol.com wrote:
> How many follows have felt like they had this guy for a lead?   }:->
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUi_ed5EnxI
>
>
>
>
> I thought this was funny as all get out and the quality of the dancing was excellent.  Does anyone know anything about the two dancers or where this was performed?
>
>
>
>
>
>  

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
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From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Nov 28 18:36:51 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:36:51 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <20081128.153651.4797.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com>

Lois Donnay wrote -----> I am currently in Buenos Aires, and am seeing 
more and more "tango" performances in the milonga that have less and 
less Argentine tango in them, and more "Dancing with the Stars". 
Completely choreoghraphed, lots of lifts, less musicality
______________________________
It sounds to me as if you are confusing performances with social 
dancing.  Of course performers are going to do fancy stuff you couldn't 
safely do in the middle of social dancing in the often quite crowded 
popular milongas.

Lots of people outside Argentina seem to believe that "true 
milongueros" only do social dancing.  Actually it's only recently that 
professional dancers trained in ballet, jazz dance, and so on came to 
dominate tango shows.  Look at videos of movies and shows filmed in the 
30s through 50s and you'll see people like El Cachafaz and Antonio 
Todaro performing.

For that matter you can still see "real authentic tango dancers" of 
advanced years perform.  Only not on the stage to a paying audience.  
Wait till the very last hour of almost any milonga, when over half of 
the attendees have gone home and the floor opens up.  You may well see 
some aged couple take the floor who you have not noticed earlier 
because they blended so smoothly into the flow of the dance.  And do 
the most amazing stuff - some of it which pro dancers in their twenties 
might struggle to do.  Or who take mental notes and incorporate the 
older couples' moves into their stage shows.

Also you will see these milongueros and milongueras breaking the rules 
that they themselves may teach in classes - because many of the rules 
are there to protect other people on tight floors, but unneeded in a 
performance.

Another misconception about milongueros is that they always dance 
socially in some solemn, super-serious way.  Some of them have a sense 
of humor and a playful approach to dancing that only people who have 
mastered the dance can match.  To stereotype them as saints or  clones 
or robotic copies of each other is to deny them of their humanity, and 
under the cover of respect commit the worst disrespect.

Just as disrespectful is to stereotype milongueros and milongueras as 
having minds closed to change.  Some are stick-in-the-muds, of course.  
But some of them have a lively interest in anything new.  Most they may 
(and probably rightly) dismiss for any of several reasons.  But they 
may also try out innovations and (rarely) even add some to their 
repertoire.
______________________________
Another confusion of performance with social dance comes from many of 
the people in this and other tango discussion forums.  This is to 
describe "tango nuevo" as being a certain way from observing (likely 
just a few) performances live or on videos.

This is really foolish.  I've had the chance to observe closely (among 
others) Fabian Salas and "Chicho" Frumboli when they are dancing 
socially.  On tight dance floors they commit none of the "nuevo crimes" 
ascribed to them.  And if they do show moves they modify them to suit 
the tightness of the floor, and the music being played.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



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From Crrtango at aol.com  Fri Nov 28 18:57:00 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:57:00 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <d2d.4108c64c.3661df4c@aol.com>


In a message dated 11/28/08 3:39:39 PM, larrynla at juno.com writes:

> ?I've had the chance to observe closely (among
> others) Fabian Salas and "Chicho" Frumboli when they are dancing
> socially.? On tight dance floors they commit none of the "nuevo crimes"
> ascribed to them.? And if they do show moves they modify them to suit
> the tightness of the floor, and the music being played.
> 

So have I for a number of years now and that was not the case ten years ago 
for Chicho and many others. If there was any open space at all he would be 
flying around the room passing people, dodging in and out, spinning like a washing 
machine.   A lot of these people have mellowed over the years, but were not 
always that way.

Cheers, 
Charles





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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 28 19:56:08 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:56:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Christian y Helga Seyb - Amarras
Message-ID: <611016.86375.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNL-3DCIms
?
A nicely danced Tango with interesting, standard sequences,
nice musicality and plain, clear footing...good to study with.
I like to collect videos in which there is some innovative dancing
on the follower's left hand side. This one qualifies...I like the look
it gives when this is done...nice variety is added to the standard 
walks to the cross, etc.. what do you think? 
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNL-3DCIms


      

From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Nov 28 19:56:10 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:56:10 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <20081128.165610.19306.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>

Charles wrote -----> [Observing Chicho] for a number of years now ...
ten years ago.  If there was any open space at all he would be flying 
around the room passing people, dodging in and out, spinning like a 
washing machine.
______________________________
My observations were in 2003 and 2004.  I saw none of what you 
describe.  Maybe he was on a sugar high when you saw him!

Or maybe he knew better and acted the asshole.  I don't know or care.  
I've seen the same careless behavior by plenty of people who were not 
remotely nuevo dancers.

Here are a couple of dancers often labeled "nuevo" who are performing 
for an audience, but illustrating (whether they meant to or not) how to 
dance compactly yet with poetry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGg5D2Tlsc

To my ear they beautifully interpreted the slow nostalgic music 
("Poema"?).  They stayed in a tight embrace the entire dance, only 
loosening up two or three times.  They made good use of pauses, 
flirting with tiny little foot flourishes, changes of direction, rock 
steps, and the like.  I think only once or twice did anyone's feet move 
very far from the "shadow" of the embrace.  When the woman did boleos 
or amagues they were to the front and close to her body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw

Pretty much the same as the first couple.  This, incidentally, is 
Chicho in 2003, during the two years on which he visited L.A. a half 
dozen times and during which I took several lessons from him.  He went 
to milongas about a dozen times during those two years which I 
attended.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 28 23:57:11 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:57:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <878213.76694.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> http://www.youtube..com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uw
> 
>? This, incidentally, is 
> Chicho in 2003, during the two years on which he visited L.A. a half 
> dozen times and during which I took several lessons from him.? He went 
> to milongas about a dozen times during those two years which I 
> attended.

I must admit, I've never understood the attraction of Chicho's dancing, 
particularly in the video posted by Larry. I mean - 11 Back Sacadas 
in 2 minutes? That's one every 12 seconds. I think this is an improvised 
performance and Chicho just ran out of ideas. And it takes more than?
a white suit, white shoes?and a beautiful ballroom to make a guy elegant.
?
Btw, this is just my opinion on his dancing; Chicho might well be a great 
teacher and choreographer. I don't know. Or maybe I'm just still thinking 
about the great Miguel Zotto video that was recently posted.
?
Jack



      



From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Nov 29 00:14:03 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 05:14:03 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas en Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <20081128.211403.14430.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

Charles wrote -----> Last time I was [in Buenos Aires] (eight months 
ago) I noticed that crowds and styles varied from night to night, even 
at the same location, according to who was the DJ/sponsor.
______________________________

Excellent point.

The same location often hosts several different milongas, each with a 
different set of organizers and DJs.  Each milonga draws different 
crowds, who also differ according to whether the milonga is held on 
weekdays or weekends.

An example of a location is Salon Canning.  It is in the SOHO area of 
Palermo, which is two-three miles west and north of the downtown area 
of the city of Buenos Aires, a 10-mile wide roughly octagonal part of 
the BsAs megaplex.  SOHO is an arty mini-barrio with lots of 
restaurants and small shops.  Canning is also within one to two blocks 
of two other milonga locations (Club Villa Malcolm, Asociacion Armenia) 
and eight blocks from Club Fulgor.

Canning has a long history and was recently renovated.  It is large, 
has a high ceiling (good for dissipating cigarette smoke), a beautiful 
floor, a big bar and snack area that (I believe) can deliver a full 
meal, and beautiful photos on the wall, one a very large mural.

Here are some pictures and a video that showcases Canning.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dedonna/295837774/ - shot including mural
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dedonna/295837536/ - shot of bar
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aladorada/29008690/in/photostream/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzh-accjq1M 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRnzRXNXgJk

Canning hosts two milongas: A Puro Tango (three nights a week) and 
Parakultural (four).  Even though the last has the same organizers, the 
milongas are not identical.  Parakultural Mina, for instance, often has 
live bands such as Color Tango


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



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From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Nov 30 10:46:21 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:46:21 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
Message-ID: <20081130.074621.5522.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com>

Jack Dylan writes --->  this is ... my opinion [only] on his dancing; Chicho 
might well be a great teacher and choreographer.

I found him a middling teacher (of course he MIGHT have improved since 
2003/4).  A lady friend took one class and said never again.  His 
focus, she said, was just on the men's part and totally ignored 
women's.

I think he's a brilliant choreographer, but obviously his stuff is not 
to everyone's taste.  And his choreography depends on his partner.  His 
current one seems a bit limited, but that might be because she does not 
assert herself.  What he did with Eugenia Parilla I loved, but I 
suspect she pushed to get in neat stuff that showcased her, as in the 
following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZq6sOLI0g
_______________________________________________________
I'm a fan of nuevo tango and have taken a lot of classes in it, but 
some people have greatly exagerated its importance today and in the 
future.  I think it ultimately will have a definite but only a small 
part in the continued evolution of tango.

The most important contribution to tango that Naveira and Salas 
provided is a way to look at traditional tango less as complex steps 
and more as simple movements which could be combined in different ways.  
But they aren't the only ones who contributed to this movement toward 
deconstruction (destruction + reconstruction).

Some people in this and other tango forums have identified a nuevo 
style of dancing and listed aspects of it.  Among those is a distant 
embrace which gives more freedom for the dancers to do fancy stuff.  
But this is true for most show dance routines, and was around long 
before Naveira and Salas started their deconstruction efforts.  Most of 
the traveling teachers I and many other learned from in the early 90s 
were professional dancers from shows such as "Forever Tango" and "Tango 
por Dos" who taught this embrace.

For that matter, a number of social dance teachers from Argentina teach 
a distant embrace.  One couple I took classes from in the early 90s, 
for instance, spoke contempuously of the "belly bumper" (their words) 
embrace, associating it with vulgar street dancers.

Some of the "steps" associated with tango nuevo also have been around 
for a long time before its advent.  The volcada, for instance, is just 
a fashionably newer name for the extreme lean, which has been around 
for a long time as part of several traditional show and social figures 
such as the carousel.

Other movements associated with nuevo are natural extensions of 
traditional figures.  The colgada, for instance, is what you get when 
you do a parada where the woman does a half back-ocho before she's 
stopped.  But the man leads her to continue her spin beyond 180 degrees 
to 270, 360, or even several complete turns.

(Larry briskly brushes his hands together and mutters dismissively 
"So much for nuevo.")


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



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From tango.society at gmail.com  Sun Nov 30 11:22:43 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:22:43 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
In-Reply-To: <20081130.074621.5522.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081130.074621.5522.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340811300822t67439b2fu3cb8de5db5f7b654@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:46 AM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:

> I'm a fan of nuevo tango and have taken a lot of classes in it, but
> some people have greatly exagerated its importance today and in the
> future.  I think it ultimately will have a definite but only a small
> part in the continued evolution of tango.
>

Larry,

Let's hope you're right about this. Right now it seems that nuevo
defines tango in some tango communities or events in the US, where the
tango from which nuevo evolved is no longer recognizable.

> The most important contribution to tango that Naveira and Salas
> provided is a way to look at traditional tango less as complex steps
> and more as simple movements which could be combined in different ways.
> But they aren't the only ones who contributed to this movement toward
> deconstruction (destruction + reconstruction).


Go talk to the milongueros. They were dancing simple movements and
recombining them before Naveira and Salas were born, and still are
today. The difference is that, unlike many nuevo dancers, milongueros
take floor traffic and the music into account when they do it.

> Some of the "steps" associated with tango nuevo also have been around
> for a long time before its advent.  The volcada, for instance, is just
> a fashionably newer name for the extreme lean, which has been around
> for a long time as part of several traditional show and social figures
> such as the carousel.

The difference is that the lean in social tango is rarely used and the
woman does not gvet displaced from her position (i.e., take a step)
while off axis. By the way, a good calesita, if used, does not pull a
woman off her axis, it only rotates her on her axis.

>
> Other movements associated with nuevo are natural extensions of
> traditional figures.  The colgada, for instance, is what you get when
> you do a parada where the woman does a half back-ocho before she's
> stopped.  But the man leads her to continue her spin beyond 180 degrees
> to 270, 360, or even several complete turns.

One almost never sees a parada coming out of a back ocho in the
milongas of Buenos Aires. It is usually danced by someone who looks
uncomfortable on the dance floor. This isn't social tango; it is stage
tango.

I see a lot of people grasping at straws to justify nuevo as a close
evolutionary descendant of social tango. Tango evolved in part from
several European dances (apparently polka, mazurka, waltz, if one
believes the tango historians) and if one looks hard enough, one can
probably find some steps they share, but this doesn't mean that tango
is polka or mazurka or European waltz. Likewise, one could find
similar steps in tango and foxtrot and quickstep, and these probably
share no evolutionary relationship. In some ways (e.g., complete
separation of partners, underarm turns) nuevo has borrowed movements
not used in tango. It is a hybrid. (In nature hybrids are sterile and
produce no offspring.) It deserves its own niche, where it does not
compete for resources with tango.

Ron

From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Nov 30 12:47:35 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:47:35 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
Message-ID: <20081130.094735.15501.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>

I see in this and other tango forums a near-hysterical obsession with nuevo 
tango and its perceived threat to "real authentic tango" - which usually means 
"tango the way I do it" but justified often by claiming their way is how its 
done in the tango Mecca of Buenos Aires.  In the 20 years I've been obsessed 
with tango I've seen the same hysteria twice before in tango.  Both times it 
blew over only to be replaced by yet another thing to be alarmed about, this 
time nuevo.

For that matter I've seen similar alarms in other fields, starting with swing 
when I was 15 in the 50s and learned the rock'n'roll version from a barmaid 
between school and happy hour in my uncle's honky-tonk.  Later I took up west-
coast swing.  In both styles of swing I saw several different hostile divisions.  
In the east coast swing it was between the Benny Goodman swingers (the "real 
true swing") and rock'n'rollers of the 50s.

I also learned the Balboa, though only as a curiosity.  It is a sort of 
"milonguero" version of swing developed in the shoulder-to-shoulder 
Benny-Goodman-years of swing.

http://www.balboanation.com/balboa.html

The interesting thing about the Balboa is that there were two versions - the 
tight "milonguero" form, and the new bat-swing form which opened up the embrace 
and allowed nuevo swing moves.  The couple from whom I learned the Balboa waxed 
nostalgic about the times when hostile camps fought over which was the real 
swing.  Here is a video that shows a couple starting in classic Balboa form and 
moving into bat-swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gunvVp-Qymg

When I moved to L.A. in 1982 to work at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab I first got 
involved in the swing community here.  But I started dating a woman from 
Columbia, who introduced me to the cumbia, a sort of slow salsa with different 
instruments.  (You should learn the cumbia if you're going to Buenos Aires, 
since it's easy to learn and a popular dance in the non-tango tandas in many 
milongas, and a good way to meet people you may want to dance tango with.)

>From there I moved to the salsa world.  And found yet another set of hostile 
camps.  The older salseros danced on the two, doing the first step of the 
triple-step basic on the second beat of the 4/4 measure.  The newer salseros 
danced on the one, the first beat of the measure.  Oh, the anger and arguments!

And with that perspective let's move back to tango nuevo.  I consider myself a 
nuevo dancer, and can do some of the more radical moves.  I'll sometimes do them 
very early or very late when the floor is more open and my partner also has a 
nuevo background or is simply a very good dancer.  But when the floor gets 
crowded I tighten up my embrace and do small movements.  Nor am I an exception.  
Most of the people I've seen in tango nuevo classes do the same.

Of course you always see people who race, stop for a long time and block the 
flow, play chicken with other dancers, and bump you if you're in their way.  But 
this has nothing to do with the style of tango they do.  It's because they are 
selfish, arrogant, ass-holes.  You see that in every form of dance, especially 
in the salsa and east-coast swing world where dancing sometimes seems a form of 
warfare.

Maybe courtesy is less in newer tango communities, but L.A. is a mature tango 
community and carelessness on the dance floor is one of those rough edges that 
have been much smoothed since the early 90s - though it still exists.  Ass-hole-
ness never goes all the way away.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com




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From vytis at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 30 15:58:16 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:58:16 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <20081130.094735.15501.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081130.094735.15501.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV6F18C9C00548D069CAC5DAE060@phx.gbl>



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
larrynla at juno.com
Sent: Monday, 1 December 2008 4:48 AM
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with Nuevo

>Of course you always see people who race, stop for a long time and block
the flow, play chicken with other dancers, and >bump you if you're in their
way.  But this has nothing to do with the style of tango they do.  It's
because they are >selfish, arrogant, ass-holes.  You see that in every form
of dance, especially in the salsa and east-coast swing world >where dancing
sometimes seems a form of warfare.

Totally agree. I see a difference between, cities where a tight, close frame
is required and a respect for others is shown to places where it seems the
definition of a good dance is how many ganchos and volcadas can be thrown in
a song no matter who is around.

Lately I have been concentrating on trying to smoothly turn my partner
keeping the axis, do mirror giros and project through in my basic walks. A
large minority to tango seem in the main want to do fantasia so how do I
satisfy their needs while getting enough dances of my own?