From febaker at buffalotango.com  Thu May  1 10:22:45 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 10:22:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
Message-ID: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>



Neat subject, eh?  :-)

So how about testing instructors for their competance in teaching
Tango?   I'm sure it isn't a new thought...   We really do need to
have Tango instructors pass some kind of exam.., eh?  To get a
certificate stating they are *qualified* to teach it?   One who
understands the dance and all?  Not like photography for instance,
where anyone a good looking camera thinks they're a 'photographer'...
A pro even... :-/

Who's for that?   I think that maybe a video of three separate classes
that were given by the particular instructor could be sent to a
committee in Bs.As. to be approved or rejected...   :-)    A group of
well known Argentine milongueros and/or instructors could get together
now in fact, and announce such a system.  Set an 'Argentine Standard'
for the world. They could charge a reasonable amount for the bother of
judging and printing certificates, etc, along with putting up with the
whining that will follow rejection.  :-)    A limit of one application
a year could be imposed to keep instructors from shotgunning.   And
the video's presented would have to be one continuous run of at least
45 minutes...  Not cut or 'edited' in any way.

To prevent shotgunning from the other end, too many groups setting
their particular standards.., perhaps the government itself might
oversee the judging committee.., and who will be on it...  Like the
wine control board in France?  :-)  

If only to protect their national dance...?   

Just an idea...  :-)

Floyd


     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 11:24:24 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <189955.83754.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Floyd Baker <febaker at buffalotango.com> wrote:
> Neat subject, eh?  :-)
> So how about testing instructors for their
> competance in teaching
> Tango?  etc ...

That is wrong/bad/intrusive on so many different
levels!  Neat subject?  No!!!  You can't be serious in
bringing this up!  

Here's a great example ... Imagine a committee of
folks from this list, just as an example, teaming
together to say that YOU cannot teach because YOU do
not teach like THEM.  Now ... is YOUR stomach turning
as much as mine?  Now, imagine a group of people from
halfway across the world taking away your passion.  If
you have students that like your teaching, they will
go to the teacher with either a very particular style
(to pass inspection) or to the teacher who has an in
with people in BsAs.  

My God!  Big brother is coming to shut you down!  

Let the community decide!

Let the students decide and let THIS subject go!

Sorry, Floyd!  This subject is revolting!
I mean, have the discussion.  But, it DOES go against
every grain in MY body!

Even super-structured ballroom doesn't have that!



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From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu May  1 11:29:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080501162925.2028W@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> We really do need to have Tango instructors pass some kind of exam..,

Such a system is already in place. One has to pass the examination of a 
few dozen people who know little or nothing about tango or the dance, then 
instruct them for a few weeks.

Voila. You are now - by definition - a tango instructor. ;)

> I think that maybe a video of three separate classes that were given
> by the particular instructor could be sent to a committee in Bs.As. to
> be approved or rejected...   :-)

One UK tango website provides service wherein a student can email-in the 
name of a prospective teacher to get an answer saying whether that teacher 
"really is well respected in Buenos Aires".

I kid you not. www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_beginners_guide_42.html .

--
Chris

From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 12:06:29 2008
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
References: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <BAY144-W21D477238D432ABD56FDD799DB0@phx.gbl>

lets hope to all things that matter on earth that you are kidding.
 
this sounds like the same crap that the martial artists who can't fight came up with to propagate their garbage, and to attempt to discredit the "real" martial artists. the end result is that the politicians make the rules and run around "promoting themselves and each other"; gluing fancy colored patches on their uniforms and giving themselves outrageous titles. the "real" martial artists, who just want to work out, retreat to little dojos and keep working out and training other "real" martial artist, simply ignoring the the "wanna be's", because for the most part, they "really don't matter". all remains well with the world until the rare occasion where the "real" martial artists end up in conflict with the "wanna be politicians"; the outcome is not so good for the "wanna be's" who then go crawl in a hole, never to show whats left of their faces again.
 
the dance correlation is what happens when a "real" dancer shows up at some "wanna be's" class or milonga. suddenly, the students want to know why they can't "dance like that", and the "wanna be" is exposed as the "fraud" that they are.
 
be careful what you wish for
 
dance onThe TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby?how do you know when you?re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 12:22:47 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <285994.79384.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Years ago ( 10-12?) there was a guy in Southern California who was churning out 'certified tango instructors' from his dance school.   And, of course, we all have been impressed by those well-known instructors and the reputation of the dancers in that area.

Dear me, Floyd.  You will have to get a bigger fedora for that bulging ego of yours.

Nancy


--- On Thu, 5/1/08, Floyd Baker <febaker at buffalotango.com> wrote:
> 
> So how about testing instructors for their competance in
> teaching
> Tango?   I'm sure it isn't a new thought...   We
> really do need to
> have Tango instructors pass some kind of exam.., eh?  To
> get a
> certificate stating they are *qualified* to teach it?   One
>


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From clif at clifdavis.com  Thu May  1 12:24:51 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:24:51 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <BAY144-W21D477238D432ABD56FDD799DB0@phx.gbl>
References: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
	<BAY144-W21D477238D432ABD56FDD799DB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00f001c8aba7$e23a7870$a6af6950$@com>

Being in the martial artist camp for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time and now having
been in the dance camp for 20 years, I know both of those concepts. 

Having been privileged(?) to be in Pat Burleson's "bloody Monday" fight
night in the late 60's and early 70's, as a punching dumbie for all the
black and brown belts and then going to some of the other dojos and watching
how the "didn't believe in contact fighting", I know the real from fake
teachers.

Then, finding the same thing in the dance studios where teaching someone
"how to dance" was less important than signing the next contract. Then
having someone come and sit on a "board of judges" to "certify" the
instructors was one of the biggest jokes of the year.

Trying to do this with Tango or any dance is really very insane. 
Just my 3.5RNB.... 

Clif

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
meaning of life
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:06 AM
To: Floyd Baker; Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.

lets hope to all things that matter on earth that you are kidding.
 
this sounds like the same crap that the martial artists who can't fight came
up with to propagate their garbage, and to attempt to discredit the "real"
martial artists. the end result is that the politicians make the rules and
run around "promoting themselves and each other"; gluing fancy colored
patches on their uniforms and giving themselves outrageous titles. the
"real" martial artists, who just want to work out, retreat to little dojos
and keep working out and training other "real" martial artist, simply
ignoring the the "wanna be's", because for the most part, they "really don't
matter". all remains well with the world until the rare occasion where the
"real" martial artists end up in conflict with the "wanna be politicians";
the outcome is not so good for the "wanna be's" who then go crawl in a hole,
never to show whats left of their faces again.
 
the dance correlation is what happens when a "real" dancer shows up at some
"wanna be's" class or milonga. suddenly, the students want to know why they
can't "dance like that", and the "wanna be" is exposed as the "fraud" that
they are.
 
be careful what you wish for
 
dance onThe TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango
Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby-how do you know when you're ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=579
7498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From brick at fastpack.com  Thu May  1 12:40:50 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:40:50 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
Message-ID: <ca2c2380805010940y29834773m7ed84a90c693ca6a@mail.gmail.com>

>  Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 10:22:45 -0400
>  From: Floyd Baker <febaker at buffalotango.com>
>  Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
>  To: Tango-L <Tango-L at mit.edu>
>  Neat subject, eh?  :-)
>
>  So how about testing instructors for their competance in teaching
>  Tango?

Why look no further!

Such a program already exists, right here in the Tango Mecca of San
Diego, California!

http://www.elmundodeltango.com/ATMA/atma.html

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 13:27:04 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380805010940y29834773m7ed84a90c693ca6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <750915.16600.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Brick Robbins <brick at fastpack.com> wrote:
> Why look no further!
> 
> Such a program already exists, right here in the
> Tango Mecca of San
> Diego, California!

Yippee!  Patterns!  

That's just goofy.  Imagine someone who could teach
part of what is on those lists better than everyone
else in town, but could care less about the rest of
it, because his students were learning faster than
everyone else's.  

Are you going to "label" him, or her, a Bronze
teacher?  THAT, my friends, is ballroom.  Tango is an
art.

If you love patterns, go ahead and call yourself a
red, yellow or green-level teacher.  Those labels are
just advertising, business building, fodder.

I am going to the class that is taught by the artist.

Wow!  Imagine if Van Gogh couldn't remember patterns! 
Better not study HIS artwork!
 



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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu May  1 13:38:38 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:38:38 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors
Message-ID: <6723291F-10E1-4833-821C-A1D66677673F@gmail.com>

 > So how about testing instructors for their competance in teaching  
Tango?

Floyd -

With all the smiley faces and stuff it sounds like your "modest  
proposal" is ironic, though I'm not sure.

Certification in many areas of teaching and learning is a good thing,  
I believe. And certificates for completion of varying levels of  
training in Argentine Tango do exist.

. Tango Discovery (Mauricio Castro) has a certification track
    http://www.tangodiscovery.com/TD2/English/program.htm

. DVIDA offers teacher certification using Christe Cote's syllabus
   http://prodvida.com/association/certification_exams/

. Ive Simard's syllabus is designed for certification.
   http://www.elmundodeltango.com/syllabus/syllabus.html

. Other schools offer various types of certificates for completion of  
training. For example, Mingo & Esther Pugliese have done this.

People who want to set themselves up as teachers of tango can do so  
without qualification, obviously. They don't need credentials,  
authorization from anyone, or even much understanding of the dance. If  
people learn how to dance from them, great. If people fail to learn  
how to dance from them, well, really, so what? It's only a dance.

But I sometimes think that a generally accepted outline of minimal  
competencies in tango dancing and tango teaching would be a beneficial  
guideline to these amateur tango teachers. Getting "general  
acceptance" in the tango world has always been the hard part.

In principle, a comprehensive system of training tango dancers could  
and should produce good dancers and good teachers of dancers. Do the  
published teaching systems accomplish this? I think it often happens,  
for example, that bad dancing is the result of cataloging steps and  
classifying styles and techniques. Following syllabi like these can  
lead teachers and their pupils to focus on memorizing information (and  
yes, patterns) rather than on learning how to dance.

The validity of different training systems for tango is always open to  
challenge, of course. Which may seem to make certification pointless.  
But the value of certification systems for tango could be, in my view,  
not so much for the certificate to be recognized by anyone, but more  
to provide path for individuals to develop their abilities.

An interesting question to ask in the case of Argentine Tango is, who  
accredited the certifiers in the first place?





From brick at fastpack.com  Thu May  1 14:00:15 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:00:15 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L]  Qualifying Tango Instructors.
Message-ID: <ca2c2380805011100j608b3babt545184cfe83bced9@mail.gmail.com>

"syllabus is designed for certification."

After having worked in and around the dance teaching industry for many
years, I personally feel that the "syllabus" is more actively used as
a marketing tool than it is used as a teaching tool. It works so well
as a marketing tool because it looks like the teaching tool we are all
familiar with from our school days, so it must work, mustn't it?

To keep students motivated, they must feel like they are progressing,
and working through a checklist of steps helps do this, whether or not
they are actually learning to dance. Motivated people buy more
lessons, which pays the rent.

I've noticed that "lesson takers" seldom social dance, and
accomplished social dancers take few lessons (and then just the
occasional private or workshop), and not just in Tango.

All IMHO, YMMV

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu May  1 14:24:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 19:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors
In-Reply-To: <6723291F-10E1-4833-821C-A1D66677673F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>

>     http://www.tangodiscovery.com/TD2/English/program.htm

"Multilevel Sequencing in Time"??? I must have slept through that class.

Ah, here's the detail:

 Have the thrill of dancing in real time the sequences that some other 
 person calls up.

Hmmm. No wonder I slept through that class... ;)

--
Chris

From spatz at tangoDC.com  Thu May  1 16:23:32 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 16:23:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Certification vs. Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com>

People,

"Teacher certification" is one of the things that teachers sell to other 
people who want to teach. Like any other degree or certificate (PhDs 
included), it only denotes that you've paid for it and shown up. The 
only reason to get one is to qualify for hire at a business that 
requires it. (Schools are often such a business.)

Otherwise, "teacher certification" is purely a vanity credential. 
There's a market for that sort of thing.

---
I've withheld putting this anywhere in public, because I don't want to 
embarrass anyone who doesn't measure up. But since the topic has arisen, 
let me stick my neck out and offer my own /personal/ "minimum 
qualifications" for a tango teacher. Perhaps it will challenge someone 
to improve, or at least equip some students with a little common sense 
(common sense so often being the first casualty).

* MINIMUM Qualifications for a Tango Teacher *
    -- Proficiency dancing either role (with style)
    -- Proficiency dancing different embraces (open, close, salon, whatever)
    -- Proficiency dancing tango, vals, and milonga
    -- Understanding of what the word "arrastre" means (in the music)
    -- Invitations to teach (i.e., rather than self-marketing)
    -- /At least five/ CDs of tango music recorded prior to Black Sabbath

The first 4 of these are purely a skill set. The 5th gets into ethics & 
/credibility/, the 6th should need no explanation.

There are many teachers who meet this minimum standard, and they're the 
ones I respect. There are many more who don't come anywhere close, and I 
personally don't consider them qualified to teach the dance. I would 
never refer my own students to anyone in this second bunch.

I hardly think my personal requirements are strict.

---
The question arises: Why are there so many unqualified teachers?

1. Young communities are built up on the enthusiasm of a small group, 
and they work with what they've got. Often I see that the /de facto/ 
teachers in such places (i.e., the grass-roots organizers) are very 
modest about what they do, and even deny themselves the "title" of 
teacher. No harm there: these folks deserve a pat on the back, in my 
opinion. Until--

2. Teachers often use assistants, and then these assistants get it into 
their heads that, because they've "taught" a little, they're entitled to 
teach on their own. These dancers, I notice, seldom meet my first /and 
most important/ requirement of proficiency in either role.

3. Talented dancers sometimes perform, and think that if you can perform 
you can teach. I don't know why they think that, but they do; and this 
delusion (a conflation of very distinct areas in the arts) accounts for 
most of the poor teachers in any artistic discipline.
    Regarding tango in particular, performing & teaching perhaps get 
conflated because so many teachers do end-of-class demos. I personally 
think such demos are worthless, unless the teacher (singular) does them 
with every student there, for /that/ student and not for an audience. 
(This should be going on /during/ a good class though, and it 
/partially/ explains why I think "proficiency in either role" is the 
foremost qualification.)

Jake


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu May  1 17:15:29 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:15:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors
Message-ID: <8D0EE177-898C-46F5-AB1F-4E59682396BC@gmail.com>

Jake:

 > -- Understanding of what the word "arrastre" means (in the music)
I hope you will explain this fourth "skill" so that I can start  
working towards my minimum qualifcations.

Is it when the bass player does one of those ascending glissandos?

Or is it when the violinists scrape their fingers across the strings  
below the bridge?

Or is it when the pianist runs his hand up and down the keys?

Or is it when the bandoneons drag their chairs across the stage prior  
to the concert?

Gosh -- do all the qualified instructors really know this one?

-joe

From febaker at buffalotango.com  Thu May  1 17:23:34 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:23:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
References: <m3kj1452rfcr1pbm8kep1dbodqjdpcvr36@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8kak14tcjsqqar266jppbopoq7fq3dqelb@4ax.com>



Ok... Very adament responses, eh.  :-)  

I wonder if any of them are Argentinians.   

Or 'Argentines' if that's the proper spelling.  It was hashed out here
a long time ago but I forgot the outcome.    

And I wonder why, whenever a comment is made with a well meant intent
of improving the breed in some way.., the first thing heard in
response is that the proposer is egotistical.    Is that the de-facto
standard response, set up by the lovers of status quo?   ;-)   Like
the word 'conspiracy' brings on an instant sarcastic groan from many
people..., because they know there aren't any such things?  <g>  

I never said that such certification would be a necessity.  That
instructors would not be able to teach without one.  But as with the
Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, UL Labs, and other such quality
assurances...

I do know teachers who shouldn't be teaching Tango..  Doesn't
everyone?   And I would be just as willing to put myself up against
the wall with everyone else.  Wouldn't everyone?  

As for the actual judging?  I rolled that off in a bit of a hurry
before leaving to teach a class..., so there can be a lot more thought
put into it the *way* it's done...   

Groups comprised of people who are *friendly* to the particular type
or style of Tango that's in the applicant's demo cd's.    Groups with
very wide lattitude judges who would only see the underlying
principals of Tango being used.., if they're there.., more so than if
it was Swango maybe?  <g>    The applicants name can be taken out and
a number substituted if that would help keep it anyonymous.

And most of all, I did not suggest that it be done from the U.S...
Heaven forbid.   No one but home grown, well respected, Tango dancing
As.Bs. natives should be allowed to make judgements...   It's their
dance, eh...  And we need the people who produce the glow.   

You know if an idea has any potential for good at all.., and I still
think this one has some merit..., people might do better by offering
up what might improve it, instead of talking about past faiures. They
don't count you know?  They were obviously done wrong! 

There are *always* ways to do things better and right.   People just
need to think about it a little more.    

It's still just a thought I had...

Floyd






     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From spatz at tangoDC.com  Thu May  1 17:51:54 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:51:54 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying... (reply to Joe)
In-Reply-To: <8D0EE177-898C-46F5-AB1F-4E59682396BC@gmail.com>
References: <8D0EE177-898C-46F5-AB1F-4E59682396BC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481A3B7A.7050600@tangoDC.com>

Joe,
> Jake:
>
>  > -- Understanding of what the word "arrastre" means (in the music)
> I hope you will explain this fourth "skill" so that I can start  
> working towards my minimum qualifcations.
>   
Use your ears. It's in every song. It's where that feckless drum-roll in 
ballroom "tango" music comes from.

Don't listen to mp3s. Lossy compression often reduces it drastically.
> Is it when the bass player does one of those ascending glissandos?
>   
It is not always ascending, nor always a glissando.
> Or is it when the violinists scrape their fingers across the strings below the bridge?
>   
Nope.
> Or is it when the pianist runs his hand up and down the keys?
>   
Nope.
> Or is it when the bandoneons drag their chairs across the stage prior to the concert?
>   
Nope. Translate as "slur."
> Gosh -- do all the qualified instructors really know this one?
>   
According to me, yes. These are MY minimum qualifications, as I specified.

Jake


From Crrtango at aol.com  Thu May  1 18:13:44 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 18:13:44 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying
Message-ID: <c1d.39de4d0d.354b9a98@aol.com>

Jake wrote to Joe:

> Gosh -- do all the qualified instructors really know this one?
>??
According to me, yes. These are MY minimum qualifications, as I specified.
Jake<<<

Joe,
No they don't and it sounds pretty arbitrary to me and I have taught at two 
different schools here in NYC, taught privately, been dancing for twelve or 
thirteen years, speak Spanish, etc., took a lot of classes with many people over 
the years and rarely, if ever, heard any dance teacher talk about it so I 
would say to Joe, no it isn't necessary.   Many people don't know what it means, 
or really care. Besides, all you have to do is look it up in a Spanish/English 
dictionary or ask someone. It takes much more skill to dance well, which is a 
far more important requirement.

Cheers,
Charles


**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on 
family favorites at AOL Food.
      
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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 18:17:44 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:17:44 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
Message-ID: <BLU119-W45B342187796F35079DDF191DB0@phx.gbl>


I think we all have seen excellent tango dancers, with a through understanding of the dance, the mechanics of the dance, and the music, who can dance both roles, who should nevertheless not be teaching tango, or any other dance for that matter.  They may, for example, not have a good understanding of the different ways that people learn a physical activity, and thus whatever they teach will be lost on many (read 'on me').  Etc.

I think that this is a very hard and many layered question.  I personally try to pick instructors based on how much invited teaching they do.  Presumably festival organizers will quit asking instructors who are unacceptable to large numbers of students and will continue to invite back those who are effective.  Perhaps bogus, but it is all I can figure out to do.  I'm not sure that "qualifications" necessarily help.  Look at the US public school system.

Cheers,

D. David Thorn

_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby?how do you know when you?re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

From abungureanu at googlemail.com  Thu May  1 18:25:29 2008
From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 00:25:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Arrastre ..Re:  Qualifying... (reply to Joe)
In-Reply-To: <481A3B7A.7050600@tangoDC.com>
References: <8D0EE177-898C-46F5-AB1F-4E59682396BC@gmail.com>
	<481A3B7A.7050600@tangoDC.com>
Message-ID: <481A4359.3050801@googlemail.com>

fyi:
http://www.andrewjames.com.au/?cat=4

Am 01.05.2008 23:51 schrieb Jake Spatz :
> Joe,
>   
>> Jake:
>>
>>  > -- Understanding of what the word "arrastre" means (in the music)
>> I hope you will explain this fourth "skill" so that I can start  
>> working towards my minimum qualifcations.
>>   
>>     
> Use your ears. It's in every song. It's where that feckless drum-roll in 
> ballroom "tango" music comes from.
>   
Are you sure you mean the same thing as Salgan? According to him it was 
not there before '43.
> Don't listen to mp3s. Lossy compression often reduces it drastically.
>   
>
???? How can mp3 change timing??

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 18:28:22 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Qualifying Tango Instructors.
Message-ID: <325623.19417.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The problem with having an Academy of Tango is the same problem
  as Academies have always caused...suppression of new approaches
  to the art.   ie: This class given by the milonguero POCHO EUSEBI
  would probably not make the rank of the sitting judges..his methods
  though extremely effective are just too informal for the status quo..
  check out this video of his class;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld-mXrmZUNs&feature=related

       
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From spatz at tangoDC.com  Thu May  1 18:47:21 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 18:47:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying
In-Reply-To: <c1d.39de4d0d.354b9a98@aol.com>
References: <c1d.39de4d0d.354b9a98@aol.com>
Message-ID: <481A4879.9030603@tangoDC.com>

Crrtango at aol.com wrote:
> Jake wrote to Joe:
>   
>> Gosh -- do all the qualified instructors really know this one?
>>     
> According to me, yes. These are MY minimum qualifications, as I specified.
> Jake<<<
>
> [...] Many people don't know what it means, or really care. Besides, all you have to do is look it up in a Spanish/English 
> dictionary or ask someone. It takes much more skill to dance well, which is a far more important requirement.
Again, this is MY /personal/, /minimum/ standard for a "qualified" 
teacher. Meaning: If a teacher doesn't meet my personal standard, I 
personally consider that teacher unqualified. If your standards are 
different, good for you! What's it to me?

If you get the meaning of "arrastre" from a dictionary, rather than from 
the music, you've missed the point entirely. If you want a verbal 
description, better to go here:
    http://www.avantango.com/Pages/Articles/musichist.html
Namely, the paragraph beginning "The absence of drums..."

Andy Ungureanu wrote:
> fyi: http://www.andrewjames.com.au/?cat=4
> [...]
> Are you sure you mean the same thing as Salgan? According to him it was not there before '43.
>   
Salgan there is talking about "arrastre con sincopa" and, in particular, 
that way of notating and/or playing the arrastre _to introduce a 
sincopa_. But Troilo was doing that before 1943 anyway, as were others. 
And the big arrastre on the 1st downbeat goes back to the 1920s, e.g., 
OTV and Di Sarli, Canaro, Fresedo, etc. In fact, it was even bigger back 
then. Just use your ears.
> Don't listen to mp3s. Lossy compression often reduces it [the arrastre] drastically. [Jake]
>
> ???? How can mp3 change timing?? [Andy]
>   
Not timing. Fidelity. Just use your ears. Mine detect a big difference, 
but if yours don't, all the better for you.

Jake


From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 19:44:41 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
In-Reply-To: <8kak14tcjsqqar266jppbopoq7fq3dqelb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <830661.77850.qm@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- Floyd Baker <febaker at buffalotango.com> wrote:

> As for the actual judging?  .. Groups comprised of people
who are *friendly* to the particular type or style of Tango
that's in the applicant's demo cd's.   


Have folks paid attention to how a student introduces a
teacher or how a teacher introduces/talks about a student? 
The variations are interesting.

Student about teacher:
- This is my teacher...
- This is one of the teachers ...
- I take classses from ...

Teacher about student:
- This is my student...
- He/she takes classes from me...
- He/she takes classes from me but isn't my student...

There's a teacher here who has been teaching for 7-8 years.
 People will say that they've take classes from him, but I
can't think of anyone who calls him "my teacher".  That one
little word "my" says a lot about the relationship between
the teacher and student - not in a possessive sense, but in
a philosophical sense.  A sharing of ideas or beliefs. 
Since the ultimate test of "teachership" lies with the
student, I think that is the required qualification.  

But how can one certify that if students have different
needs and goals?  In the end, the students end up finding
the teacher that works for them.  Quite frankly there are
some students that I am not interested in teaching.  So
it's fine with me if they find someone else, even if that
person is less experienced.  Those that are serious will do
the work to find the better teachers, which isn't all that
hard.  It's a matter of just asking around.

Trini de Pittsburgh




PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



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From politas at gmail.com  Thu May  1 20:50:45 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 10:50:45 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <481A6565.5010604@gmail.com>

Chris, UK wrote:
>>     http://www.tangodiscovery.com/TD2/English/program.htm
> 
> "Multilevel Sequencing in Time"??? I must have slept through that class.
> 
> Ah, here's the detail:
> 
>  Have the thrill of dancing in real time the sequences that some other 
>  person calls up.
> 
> Hmmm. No wonder I slept through that class... ;)

Sounds like Rueda. A fun dance, but hardly tango?

-- 
Myk Dowling

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu May  1 22:22:38 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:22:38 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] arrastre (musical)
Message-ID: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>

Well... this is fantastic. The "arrastre test" seems like kind of an  
idiosyncratic prerequisite for being a tango teacher, but I am glad to  
learn about different ways that people use the word arrastre, and I am  
thrilled to know of these references to the Pablo Aslan and Andrew  
James web sites. I didn't know these existed.

Thanks Jake, Andy, and Floyd for starting the thread.

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 22:51:27 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 19:51:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Kung fu Milonga
Message-ID: <295715.77665.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

While everyone is still busy trying to make Tango more difficult
  than it ever needs to be, here is a Milonga Karate Kata as taught by
  Hugo Daniel. Picture five opponents attacking him from different
  directions,  one after another.....he shows that dancing can be fun, too!
   
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=RGUfq77q0e4

       
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From atango2 at aol.com  Thu May  1 23:27:27 2008
From: atango2 at aol.com (atango2@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:27:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Qualifications
Message-ID: <8CA7A1B94AE2706-520-4972@webmail-de09.sysops.aol.com>

Where in the realm of "qualilfication" or "certification" (both imply arbirtrary standards regardless of who establishes them) are the concepts and skills of connection at the physical, mental and emotional levels?? These are felt but not necessarily seen and can?only be rated?by dancing with someone.

We?may dance with? technically "correct"? teachers/partners/classmates, and yet without incorporating the secrets of sharing the same wave length, all else is just moving around the floor.? Tango at its finest includes an exchange of energy and emotion that transcends anything that could ever be defined or categorized. We know it when we feel it.? No matter the steps, if we leave the floor weak in the knees and seek solitude to savor the moment, we have experienced tango.

Dancing with someone who is "proficient" is very different from moving as one with someone who? responds to ?the mood and?layers of rhythms of the ?music (irrespective whether they?can define?the technical terms). ?Some who are less experienced may have a more committed and memorable connection than some who are more experienced because they respond to their partner?in a way that creates the magic that we seek.?

 Masters have mastered silent communicatin and their choreography flows seemingly effortlessly.? However, they have likely spent years/decades exploring the techniqes of making the woman feel safe, secure and special.? Maestras have learned to trust their partner,?feel the music and respond with verve. ?Their committment is complete.

Tango is danced from the inside out.? Exquiste moments are created through connection with our partner and the music rather than from steps.? Feelings cannot be quantified.? Who among us has not experienced a simple dance that left us speechless with pleasure and a complex dance that left us unfulfilled??

Tango is in a class by itself and?captures?its enthusiastst? from sole to soul. Who's to set the standards for measuring connection and pleasure? Tango has sustained my devotion for seventeen years and it has not been because of anything that could be statistically measured.?Yet, I cannot imagine a life without it.

Polly in Portland
www.tangoquest.net




From antonst at alidas.com.au  Fri May  2 01:49:34 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:49:34 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Tango Shop
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF55F@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

I am pleased to report to list members that my complaint about The Tango
Shop, which I posted on the list some weeks ago, has been rectified by
the owners, Gustavo and Jesica Hornos. A telephone apology (no mean feat
between Santa Rosa and Australia) and a gift of a Pugliese Collection CD
has squared it with me. 
 
Anton

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 02:12:35 2008
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is swing a traveling dance in Bs. As.?
Message-ID: <654955.97136.qm@web52510.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I had always thought that swing was a stationary dance
but this video of swing at the Sunderland clearly
shows a traveling dance
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4pvAvyvQQg>.  Is this
the general case in Buenos Aires?

What about salsa?  Is salsa a traveling dance in
Buenos Aires?


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From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 02:25:41 2008
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is Bahia Blanca played at traditional milongas?
Message-ID: <64749.62260.qm@web52501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

A friend on mine told me that at traditional Buenos
Aires milongas where the older dancers go (i.e.: not
La Viruta) the DJs don't play Di Sarli's Bahia Blanca
except for exhibitions.  Is it true that the DJs don't
play it?  If true, why?


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From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 02:47:31 2008
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Questions about couples' milongas.
Message-ID: <694841.77794.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

At milongas for couples (e.g.: Sunderland), do they
chat at the beginning of the song?  Do they clear the
dance floor during the cortina?  If they clear the
floor, and they want to dance the next tanda, where do
they go?  Back to their seats/bench?



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From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 05:28:49 2008
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 02:28:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Message-ID: <239389.59741.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Over the years, tangueras returning from Buenos Aires
raved about the Porteno tangueros.  They said that the
Portenos lead easy steps, used a secure and passionate
embrace, and displayed wonderful musicality.  As a
friend of mine was gushing about the Portenos'
embrace, I asked her why she didn't she just teach the
embrace to the men here.  She looked at me like I was
insane.

1. To the ladies who like the Porteno embrace, have
you tried to teach it to the men folk back home?  Were
you successful?

2. Same question regarding musicality.


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From febaker at buffalotango.com  Fri May  2 07:01:34 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:01:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Certification vs. Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com>
References: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
	<481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com>
Message-ID: <c1tl14hf7vj3fqqsio6bej7iur8tqslg6h@4ax.com>



On Thu, 01 May 2008 16:23:32 -0400, you wrote:

>People,
>
>"Teacher certification" is one of the things that teachers sell to other 
>people who want to teach. Like any other degree or certificate (PhDs 
>included), it only denotes that you've paid for it and shown up. The 
>only reason to get one is to qualify for hire at a business that 
>requires it. (Schools are often such a business.)

>Otherwise, "teacher certification" is purely a vanity credential. 
>There's a market for that sort of thing.

The seal of approval I was thinking of was to come from the
originators of the dance. The government which considers it their
national dance.  The judges being people from As.Bs. of the type who
work cleaning mausoleums and grave stones during the day to make
enough in tips  to Tango at night.

A seal of approval from the Argentine government, as approved by the
people they choose to judge the instructors around the world would be
a lot more than a vanity credential.  It would way more be a true
validation of one's ability.

Not a case of being required by schools, etc.   It would be a
copyright protected symbol that one could place in ads as being a
qualified Tango instructor.   One could still 'teach' without it of
course.

There are 'approvals' given by neutral judges in many area.  The BBB,
the Blue Book,  Consumer Reports, etc. that cover products and
services we pay for.   Caveat Emptor isn't that difficult in most
instances if one cares to try...  But when it comes to learning Tango?
Ha!  No chance at all.

I was teaching at a facility where the owner freely admitted he didn't
know how to Tango in the least.  Yet he told me how to teach it. More
*moves* he said.  'More like the other teachers teach their dances.'.
Salsa, merengue, etc.    So students have more 'fun'... I guess it
didn't matter we would then be stealing from them.   Not really
teaching the Tango they were paying to learn.  Just his comic
hollywood version of it.  I couldn't go his way so he got rid of me
and hired someone who would.   A new student of mine and her
boyfriend.., he being totally new to Tango but learning lots of show
moves.   :-p
  
I'm sure there are Tango instructor horror stores galore out there.
Mine not even coming close to the worst.   

>---
>I've withheld putting this anywhere in public, because I don't want to 
>embarrass anyone who doesn't measure up. 
<snip>
>I hardly think my personal requirements are strict.

Exactly.    For being an instructor, they're not strict at all..
Dancing ability does not automatically equal understanding, or any
particular 'teaching' ability at all.   Tango dancing requires body
control.   Tango teaching requires mind control.   Has one bothered to
get things in order 'up there' as well as they have 'down there'...?
Not necessarily likely.   They're totally different when it comes to
mindset and goals.   Teaching is doing for others.  Dancing is doing
for ones self...  They're rather mutually exclusive when looked at in
that sense.  Ergo, good dancers may not be able to teach at all.  

Other than that.., I agree 99 percent on what you say below.
Everything but the last sentence...

Tango on...

Floyd

>---
>The question arises: Why are there so many unqualified teachers?
>
>1. Young communities are built up on the enthusiasm of a small group, 
>and they work with what they've got. Often I see that the /de facto/ 
>teachers in such places (i.e., the grass-roots organizers) are very 
>modest about what they do, and even deny themselves the "title" of 
>teacher. No harm there: these folks deserve a pat on the back, in my 
>opinion. Until--
>
>2. Teachers often use assistants, and then these assistants get it into 
>their heads that, because they've "taught" a little, they're entitled to 
>teach on their own. These dancers, I notice, seldom meet my first /and 
>most important/ requirement of proficiency in either role.
>
>3. Talented dancers sometimes perform, and think that if you can perform 
>you can teach. I don't know why they think that, but they do; and this 
>delusion (a conflation of very distinct areas in the arts) accounts for 
>most of the poor teachers in any artistic discipline.

>    Regarding tango in particular, performing & teaching perhaps get 
>conflated because so many teachers do end-of-class demos. I personally 
>think such demos are worthless, unless the teacher (singular) does them 
>with every student there, for /that/ student and not for an audience. 

>(This should be going on /during/ a good class though, and it 
>/partially/ explains why I think "proficiency in either role" is the 
>foremost qualification.)
>
>Jake

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Fri May  2 07:28:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Certification vs. Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <c1tl14hf7vj3fqqsio6bej7iur8tqslg6h@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080502122840.2028t@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> A seal of approval from the Argentine government, as approved by the
> people they choose to judge the instructors around the world would be
> a lot more than a vanity credential.

I think you'd find the Argentine govt are amongst /last/ people the tango 
world would trust for a seal of approval.

> It would be a copyright protected symbol

Ho ho! ;)

Floyd, this proposal of yours made more sense its original 100% ironic form.

--
Chris

From febaker at buffalotango.com  Fri May  2 08:12:26 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 08:12:26 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Certification vs. Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080502122840.2028t@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <c1tl14hf7vj3fqqsio6bej7iur8tqslg6h@4ax.com>
	<memo.20080502122840.2028t@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <o81m1415q44vnf4n6adoqskncacihfv69a@4ax.com>


On Fri, 2 May 2008 12:28 +0100 (BST), you wrote:

>> A seal of approval from the Argentine government, as approved by the
>> people they choose to judge the instructors around the world would be
>> a lot more than a vanity credential.
>
>I think you'd find the Argentine govt are amongst /last/ people the tango 
>world would trust for a seal of approval.

As far as upholding many people's current way of
'teaching/mechanizing' of Tango..?    For sure!

>> It would be a copyright protected symbol

>Ho ho! ;)

As much as any others we already have, trust and go with...   
Would you have a problem trying to get one?  

>Floyd, this proposal of yours made more sense its original 100% ironic form.

Well perhaps it did... But there were so many that wanted to change it
into ways that were obviously counter productive and already shown to
not work., that I thought it MUST be a good idea.   ??  

I'm pretty sure it will never happen of course.   But wouldn't it be
nice if it did?    I'm an optimist and idealist you know...  Makes
life more hopeful and enjoyable to think better things are coming. 
It also helps that I eat a frog every morning.   The rest of the day
always looks brighter then...  

Take care...

Floyd



     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From febaker at buffalotango.com  Fri May  2 09:00:05 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 09:00:05 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead
In-Reply-To: <49922.1209493606@tangohk.com>
References: <49922.1209493606@tangohk.com>
Message-ID: <9r3m14lqu4i8gq2q7phcleg6p5t72sjqa1@4ax.com>






Keith...  

The link is not working..

So I didn't see the video.., 

but what you're saying is a single step to the followers right,
directly into a cross...   If you'd care to know how I do it.., here
it is.

One can do a vine in the direction of the followers left?   Side step,
front step..?  

I simply simulate the start of the second vine step by a 'jog' to the
shoulders...  Then immediately come back to flat on and not moving
latterally at all.  A fake pivot I guess?  But it causes the ladies
left foot to cross over her right foot.    

And when that step is cancelled, the left foot just falls back to the
right side of her right foot.    Because the lady knows that's where
the leader put it.  

Easy enough...  ??

Floyd









On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:26:46 -0400, you wrote:

>
> There's one lead that I always find troublesome and generally avoid. It's LF side, 
>lady RF side and then, without a pause, lead the lady into a LF Front Cross in 
>front of me. The reasons I find it troublesome are:
>
>1. I feel that it results in a break in the connection; and
>2. I feel that it needs a lead with the right arm, which I generally don't like to do.
>
>The reason I raise the subject now is that I was watching an excellent video of 
>Alberto Dassieu that was posted by Mario. 
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=VqgujDIWlOc
>
>Alberto gives this lead 4 times during the dance at 0.39, 1.06, 1.17 and 2.40. 
>On 2 ocassions he does it without moving his RF and the other 2 he steps forward, 
>with the lady, with his RF.
>
>Do others who dance in close embrace lead this step and, if so, how do you resolve
>the problems I have? I emphasise that the lead is without a pause. I have no trouble 
>leading the lady to step in front of me with her LF if I pause after my RF side and 
>LF close.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From Crrtango at aol.com  Fri May  2 09:08:08 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:08:08 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Questions about couples' milongas.
Message-ID: <cee.325ad846.354c6c38@aol.com>

 ming_mar asked:

<<At milongas for couples (e.g.: Sunderland), do they
chat at the beginning of the song?? Do they clear the
dance floor during the cortina?? If they clear the
floor, and they want to dance the next tanda, where do
they go?? Back to their seats/bench?>>

First, Sunderland is not just for couples but it might depend on the night 
you went, but the answer is yes to all the questions, and they go back to their 
seats, whether in Sunderland, Sin Rumbo or other milongas. Argentines do not 
start dancing to the first note of music but usually chat a little bit first 
and almost always clear the floor after, even if they want to dance the next 
tanda. People in the U.S. tend to dance to all or most of the songs, but portenos 
wait for their favorites so sitting down makes sense. I don't know what is 
happening at some of the other "nuevo" milongas that are attracting the younger 
crowd and some of the tourists, but the traditional ones still follow this 
protocol.

Cheers,
Charles




**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

From romerob at telusplanet.net  Fri May  2 09:08:58 2008
From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net)
Date: Fri,  2 May 2008 06:08:58 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Message-ID: <1209733738.481b126ac7b89@webmail.telus.net>

> Over the years, tangueras returning from Buenos Aires
raved about the Porteno tangueros.  They said that the
Portenos lead easy steps, used a secure and passionate
embrace, and displayed wonderful musicality.  As a
friend of mine was gushing about the Portenos'
embrace, I asked her why she didn't she just teach the
embrace to the men here.  She looked at me like I was
insane<

My 2 cents:

If tango dancing can be comparable to kissing in the way how dance is 
interjected with pauses and changes of intensity, then this might be equivalent 
to teaching a man how to kiss a woman.

I think the issue is learning how to apply the principles porte?os use on the 
dance floor to one's situation.

Cheers,

Bruno


From febaker at buffalotango.com  Fri May  2 09:05:00 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 09:05:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead
In-Reply-To: <9r3m14lqu4i8gq2q7phcleg6p5t72sjqa1@4ax.com>
References: <49922.1209493606@tangohk.com>
	<9r3m14lqu4i8gq2q7phcleg6p5t72sjqa1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <s84m149ti81mah5bmn7nbjqmtdkjv3che8@4ax.com>







On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:00:05 -0400, you wrote:


>Keith...  
>
>The link is not working..
>
>So I didn't see the video.., 
>
>but what you're saying is a single step to the followers right,
>directly into a cross...   If you'd care to know how I do it.., here
>it is.
>
>One can do a vine in the direction of the followers left?   Side step,
>front step..?  

Sorry... I meant "one can do a vine to the followers *right*?"

>I simply simulate the start of the second vine step by a 'jog' to the
>shoulders...  Then immediately come back to flat on and not moving
>latterally at all.  A fake pivot I guess?  But it causes the ladies
>left foot to cross over her right foot.    
>
>And when that step is cancelled, the left foot just falls back to the
>right side of her right foot.    Because the lady knows that's where
>the leader put it.  
>
>Easy enough...  ??
>
>Floyd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:26:46 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>
>> There's one lead that I always find troublesome and generally avoid. It's LF side, 
>>lady RF side and then, without a pause, lead the lady into a LF Front Cross in 
>>front of me. The reasons I find it troublesome are:
>>
>>1. I feel that it results in a break in the connection; and
>>2. I feel that it needs a lead with the right arm, which I generally don't like to do.
>>
>>The reason I raise the subject now is that I was watching an excellent video of 
>>Alberto Dassieu that was posted by Mario. 
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=VqgujDIWlOc
>>
>>Alberto gives this lead 4 times during the dance at 0.39, 1.06, 1.17 and 2.40. 
>>On 2 ocassions he does it without moving his RF and the other 2 he steps forward, 
>>with the lady, with his RF.
>>
>>Do others who dance in close embrace lead this step and, if so, how do you resolve
>>the problems I have? I emphasise that the lead is without a pause. I have no trouble 
>>leading the lady to step in front of me with her LF if I pause after my RF side and 
>>LF close.
>>
>>Keith, HK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Tango-L mailing list
>>Tango-L at mit.edu
>>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
>     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From paul.shri at gmail.com  Fri May  2 08:58:14 2008
From: paul.shri at gmail.com (Paul Shrivastava)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 08:58:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching and certification
In-Reply-To: <mailman.496710.1209727730.25182.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.496710.1209727730.25182.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <481B0FE6.9060200@gmail.com>

As a life long academic also involved in building educational 
institutions let me throw in my 2-cents into this conversation.  I have 
reviewed all the formal "syllabuses" that I could find online (about 20) 
and outlines of about 50 workshops by all sorts of Tango teachers from 
US and BA.  The lack of uniformity and standards is apparent event to a 
casual observer.

Tango to me is simultaneously a dance, a music and a culture.  Just 
learning the steps without knowing the emotional and cultural and 
intellectual meanings behind the dance,  is like learning to bake cakes 
from a ready-made mix, instead of using basic ingredients.  You may 
still get a cake out of it, but it is not the same.

Most Tango teaching today focuses on steps, some teacher/workshops pay 
some attention musicality and emotionality.  But, there as no standards.

If you look at the evolution of professionalization in any field - 
medicine, legal, management, education, they all involve developing some 
standards, and establishing independent accrediting agencies that 
monitor and certify them.  There are standards and accreditations in 
music, dance, and theater.  So clearly standards can be created in Tango.

To build an infrastructure for certifying teachers or learners there is 
a lot of basic work to be done in codifying and documenting Tango and 
creating standards and norms.  Without that hard work, all this talk of 
certifying and qualifying is bull.  Are there institutions, individuals, 
practitioners willing to engage in this work? 

Paul

Paul Shrivastava, Ph.D.
Tel 610-737-7333 
www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/shrivast





From jjg at jqhome.net  Fri May  2 11:16:59 2008
From: jjg at jqhome.net (Jeff Gaynor)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 10:16:59 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting educated
In-Reply-To: <481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com>
References: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
	<481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com>
Message-ID: <481B306B.6000908@jqhome.net>

With all of the talk about qualifications for teachers, it dawns on me 
that I don't have a functional definition of what it means to be 
well-rounded and educated in tango.

At this point my education is spotty. I know some close embrace. It 
impresses me that getting well rounded should be my next goal. Since I 
cannot go for depth of material, I'll have to go for breadth.

(OK, I'll come clean. I've laid off tango for a while for various 
personal reasons and for the fact that there are no women in my 
community that are interested in dancing at a high level. Consequently I 
found that mostly when I danced I was getting into the habit of 
correcting for their bad technique. One factor that made me decide to 
lay off was taking lessons from a few excellent teachers all of whom 
independently told me that dancing with poor followers was the biggest 
single reason I was stuck. At this point I'm at a dead end, so it's 
either figure out something to keep me active in the community or just 
drop out from boredom and frustration. I'm not alone, I suspect -- how 
many people who drop out are in the same boat as me, I wonder?)

Oh and *please* keep the ideology to a minimum. Look, I'm no pro, right? 
In the case of CE vs. OE vs. Fantasia etc. what has happened is you've 
thought about it for years and with a sound background, gravitated 
towards what suits you best. Fine. However (this is me talking as a 
teacher in other fields), narrowing down the field to your particular 
love runs the real risk of stupefying your students. If they do it just 
like you say, it should be the case they can hold their own anywhere 
rather than give a pious sermon on how something is not "real". This 
just looks like they cover their ignorance with sanctimoniousness.

So people, what in you opinion would you count as a good basic education 
for someone who wants to do tango?

From stermitz at tango.org  Fri May  2 11:35:45 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:35:45 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching and certification
In-Reply-To: <481B0FE6.9060200@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.496710.1209727730.25182.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<481B0FE6.9060200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CEB44E7-7268-4381-B962-610B2D9AD293@tango.org>

I completely changed my curriculum when I went to learn a new dance. I  
tried Lindy, but the concepts were too random. I tried West Coast  
swing (basically the same as Lindy, only slower and straightened out).  
Same concepts as Lindy, but the instructional methdology was much more  
directed and clear.

At the basic level, WCS is taught as a set of 6 or 8 "basic" patterns  
that fit the music as a 6 or 8 count moves.

A leader can attend a month of classes and pick up most of these  
patterns one by one, and immediately start dancing. Yes, he's wooden,  
and yes, he's just repeating patterns. 2 or 6 months later (or maybe  
never), a "miracle occurs", and the man is dancing intuitively,  
changing off the different patterns without thinking, swapping in and  
out new moves, and ready to start learning more stuff.

So, I changed from an analytical approach: walking, turns, cross- 
footed theory, to a small-element approach. I also changed to a more  
directed approach: Here's the music, here are 8 or 10 short sequences  
that fit the music. If you have memorized 3 or 4 moves, you are  
already qualified to get up and dance. Yes, their wooden. Yes, 2 or 6  
(or never) months later a miracle occurs....


But, as they say in Perl, there is more than one way to do it, that  
is, tango is also a Pathologically Eclectic Rubish Lister.


On May 2, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Paul Shrivastava wrote:

> As a life long academic also involved in building educational
> institutions let me throw in my 2-cents into this conversation.  I  
> have
> reviewed all the formal "syllabuses" that I could find online (about  
> 20)
> and outlines of about 50 workshops by all sorts of Tango teachers from
> US and BA.  The lack of uniformity and standards is apparent event  
> to a
> casual observer.
>
> Tango to me is simultaneously a dance, a music and a culture.  Just
> learning the steps without knowing the emotional and cultural and
> intellectual meanings behind the dance,  is like learning to bake  
> cakes
> from a ready-made mix, instead of using basic ingredients.  You may
> still get a cake out of it, but it is not the same.
>
> Most Tango teaching today focuses on steps, some teacher/workshops pay
> some attention musicality and emotionality.  But, there as no  
> standards.
> ...
> Paul


From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Fri May  2 11:55:14 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:55:14 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting educated
Message-ID: <20080502155055.0637B236060@p3fed1.frb.org>

Jeff Gaynor raises what I consider some interesting points.

At some point, most tango dancers choose not to improve.  In quite a few 
communities the acceptable level of mediocrity can be fairly low because 
people can go to milongas and play at dancing tango.  In such communities, 
we see kind of dynamic that Jeff describes where improving beyond the 
mediocre level is unnecessary to participate and becomes difficult because 
there is no one else dancing well enough that it makes much of a 
difference.  The community remains mired at a relatively low level.

What happens for those tango dancers who have the aptitude, are willing to 
work hard to develop and polish their skills, but aren't planning to make 
a living from tango?  In this case, a personal drive to excel becomes 
necessary to create an environment that launches the person well beyond 
where their own community stands

One typical idea is working with at least one partner who is willing to 
work together toward the same goals of excellent dancing--by taking some 
private lessons and practicing a lot.  Once the couple has succeeded in 
developin their skills to the point they considerable desirable, however 
they will still find themselves in the same community of mediocre dancers.

Perhaps a better idea is to form a small practice group practice group 
with both mena and women in which all the other people have similar goals 
and are willing to work, possibly organizing lessons for the group 
together, attending workshops in other cities as group, etc.   Most 
importantly, everyone in the group must make a committement to developing 
a high level of excellence in tango.  Once the group has succeeded and 
emerges at milongas in the community, everyone in the group will have more 
potential partners at the milongas, and the group may act as a seed for 
better dancing in the entire community.

With best regards,
Steve



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Fri May  2 12:16:50 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:16:50 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting educated
In-Reply-To: <481B306B.6000908@jqhome.net>
References: <memo.20080501192414.2028Y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
	<481A26C4.8070501@tangoDC.com> <481B306B.6000908@jqhome.net>
Message-ID: <13176a380805020916q32da9e70ob90a58dae70b5d18@mail.gmail.com>

Jeff:
I understand your pain. My private teacher never concentrated on figures
except to help me with my technique. So, as part of a good basic education:
1) Relaxed body so the muscles don't grip so the dancer and give and feel
the lead
2) How to maintain axis
3) Develop a firm, but gentle frame
4) Have good balance (don't dance pigdeon toed)
5) Maintain good posture by keeping the hips back so the chest comes
forward. (This is NOT the same thing as bending forward from the waist.)

Joe always said "Michael, it's the HOW, not the WHAT, that matters." The
Chinese have an expression "Give a man a fish; feed him for one day. Teach a
man to fish; feed him for life." Translated to tango "Teach somebody a
figure and all they can do is that specific figure. Teach them how to dance
with the education I listed above, they can dance anything."

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Probably going to the Big Apple next weekend for the all night milonga and
hoping to schedule a business trip to NY.




On 5/2/08, Jeff Gaynor <jjg at jqhome.net> wrote:
>
>
> So people, what in you opinion would you count as a good basic education
> for someone who wants to do tango?
>

From dchester at charter.net  Fri May  2 13:16:32 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:16:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead
Message-ID: <20080502131632.ZHBCX.61069.root@fepweb14>

Keith,

I think the one at he does at 1:06 gives the best view.  To me, it looks like he is leading it with his right arm (and hand).  Is that how you see it as well?

For the people who couldn't get the link to work, remove the backslash "\" (it came after "watch" and before "?" in the link).  I'll post it below, but the email might goof it up again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc

Regards,

David

 
----------------------------------------------
From: Keith <keith at tangohk.com> 
Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead 
To: tango-l at mit.edu  
 
 There's one lead that I always find troublesome and generally avoid. It's LF 
side, 
lady RF side and then, without a pause, lead the lady into a LF Front Cross in 
front of me. The reasons I find it troublesome are: 
 
1. I feel that it results in a break in the connection; and 
2. I feel that it needs a lead with the right arm, which I generally don't like 
to do. 
 
The reason I raise the subject now is that I was watching an excellent video of 
Alberto Dassieu that was posted by Mario. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=VqgujDIWlOc 
 
Alberto gives this lead 4 times during the dance at 0.39, 1.06, 1.17 and 2.40. 
On 2 ocassions he does it without moving his RF and the other 2 he steps 
forward, 
with the lady, with his RF. 
 
Do others who dance in close embrace lead this step and, if so, how do you 
resolve 
the problems I have? I emphasise that the lead is without a pause. I have no 
trouble 
leading the lady to step in front of me with her LF if I pause after my RF side 
and 
LF close. 
 
Keith, HK 
 

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Fri May  2 13:23:00 2008
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:23:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Michaels posture tips- getting educated
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702AE08A9@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

I agree with all of Michaels tips except this one:

"5) Maintain good posture by keeping the hips back so the chest comes
forward. (This is NOT the same thing as bending forward from the
waist.)"
 
Rather than emphasize the hips back, which might lead to a sway back and
bad curvature of the spine, I think its better to think of bringing the
navel back toward the spine, and elongating and straightening the spine
by slightly rotating the pelvis down, definitely not "up" or "back".
Once thats done, feel your posture as if you took a deep chest breath,
or as if a string is pulling up and out from your sternum at a 45 degree
angle to the ceiling. Chin back and down a bit so the head and neck are
directly stacked over the spine.  Now slightly tilt forward from your
ankles up so you feel the weight more over the ball of the foot than
over the heel.   That's pretty much it, the embrace has its own set of
preferences, some people think of shoulders down and engaging the
muscles under the shoulder blades, others think of arms out and around,
but avoid round shouldered look. Keep shoulders on same plane as chest,
even when your arms are out in a huge colgada. 
Actually, many of these tips were already posted a while back by Keith
of Hong Kong, who did a lot better job than me of explaining it.  I had
his tips confirmed recently in a private with Lorena Ermocida.  The only
premier tanguero I know who has his hips somewhat back is Javier
Rodriguez, not sure if its due to his anatomy or style preference, I
hope he doesn't develop lower back pain as he ages. 
 

From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Fri May  2 13:55:29 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:55:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead
Message-ID: <20080502175109.C75FA235B03@p3fed1.frb.org>

David wrote:
>>To me, it looks like he is leading it with his right arm (and hand).  Is 
that how you see it as well?<<

I understand why David says what he does, but I see it a little 
differently.  As I see it, the beginning of her cross following her side 
step right is led with the same torso rotation required for a forward ocho 
and the space created between his left side and her right side that he 
creates by stepping side left a little away from her.  His closure of the 
space rotates her about her right leg axis and creates the cross from what 
might otherwise become a forward ocho.  His arm (and by extension only) 
and his hand complete the movement with her, but I don't see a much force 
in his arm or hand.  It is rotation and the creation and elimination of 
space that leads the movements.

With best regards,
Steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc
>>I think the one at he does at 1:06 gives the best view. 




From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri May  2 14:50:19 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:50:19 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] arrastre (musical)
In-Reply-To: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>
References: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370805021150s50101a94jbf43b78e7717c72d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well... this is fantastic. The "arrastre test" seems like kind of an
> idiosyncratic prerequisite for being a tango teacher,

     I agree.  I truly admire Jake for the way he's plunged these last
few years via research into the deepest depths of tango, but I'd be
willing to bet that if you asked 99 out of 100 tango teachers,
including the best from Argentina, what an arrastre was, they'd reply
that it was a foot drag and wouldn't have the slightest idea that it
was also a musical term.

     Dancers, even and especially the best ones, don't know diddly
about technical music theory.  Hell, they don't even know what
syncopation means (they think it means double-timing something), so
how are they to be expected to know what an arrastre means in the
musical world?

     I'd also like to ask Jake just exactly what purpose this
supposedly de rigueur knowledge serves to the new aspiring dancer.
I'm trying to imagine the dialogue:

     Official Arrastre-Certified Teacher:  "You hear the way this
music goes, "baaaaa-RUMP!!"  It is absolutely essential for you to
know that that is called an "arrastre."

     Student:   "Wow, cosmic, dude!!!  All of a sudden my balance is
great now, I'm dancing!!  That's all that was holding me back,
thanks!!!"       :-)

Huck

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri May  2 15:00:03 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 19:00:03 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] A troublesome lead
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5509ACCBF7952A2114330197DA0@phx.gbl>



To induce the woman to cross front after step #2 of the base, I lead both with my chest and my right arm.

A very important element of this lead is that the chest increases the forward lean as you keep your right arm
firm to induce her to cross front, instead of back.

Observe that sometimes he goes " in a mirror step" (en espejo) and his right foot goes parallel to her left one.

Sometimes we induce a similar move after step #3 of the base: we step forward, outside body, with right
and ***keep the chest back*** ( an unusual step) ; after she steps back with her right we induce the front
cross of her left by bringing the chest forward without moving the feet.  A very dramatic move.
I learned this move from Nito Garcia.

Best regards, Sergio

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008

From heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com  Fri May  2 15:06:11 2008
From: heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com (Heather Whitehead)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 19:06:11 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Musicality and embrace of B.A.
Message-ID: <BAY137-W4491B1E1065E26442E39C7FCDA0@phx.gbl>



People dance from their environment. Besides our obvious cultural disadvantage we simply don't set up the situational environment or the collective conscious mental state that produces this kind of dancing.

We need smaller more crowded floors. The kind of creativity this produces is superiour. The leads throw out the bullshit and get down to business. This, that can seem like a limitation, actually makes the more intelligent lead with the best reaction time to the floor but also musical options.
We need leads that educate other leads of the unacceptability of poor floor craft.
We need to give followers the ability to say no to leads who don't feel good. This will set an unspoken hierarchy and healthy competition between leads that is based on dancing for the follower's pleasure. Our scenes have too many obligatory dancing going on based in being 'friendly'. Followers need an embrace with substance and cadencia. Standardized boring musicality doesn't feel good, neither does over elaborated musicality that is just out to fit in his best moves and prove his knowledge of the music.
We need dancers who aren't dancing to be admired by the people watching. This means followers too. If your pretty shoes and your perfect boleo are occupying your consciouness...somethings wrong there.
We need dancers who develop a true sincere emotional attachment to the music.

You can talk to individuals forever about the embrace and musicality of Buenos Aires and it won't change anything until we purposely manipulate the environment and prioritize mentally what is the most important in the dance experience.

Oh Yeah, one more thing- We need to stop letting any instructor come into our communities and teach unless, trivial moves, under the name of 'creativity', that take us farer and farer from what really matters.
 
_________________________________________________________________
 Get Free (PRODUCT) RED?  Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics
http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008

From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Fri May  2 15:12:11 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 14:12:11 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting educated (restated and expanded)
Message-ID: <20080502190751.5D7E5236017@p3fed1.frb.org>

I don't think my previous post on this subject was sufficiently clear. 
I've refined my comments.  The bottom line is that I think it is good to 
find a partner with whom to develop skills and even better to find a group 
with whom to develop skills.  There just isn't enough of a payoff in some 
places to develop skills on one's own.

At some point, most tango dancers choose not to improve because the effort 
required isn't paid back with a sufficient improvement in the quality of 
the dance experience.  In a partner dance, such as tango, the tango skills 
of one's potential partners can greatly influence how much improving one's 
own skills improves the dance experience.  Improving one's own skills 
doesn't do much good if one's potential dance partners have mediocre 
skills.

The required complementarity of skills in dance partners can lead to a 
situation in which an entire community remains mired in mediocrity, even 
though many individual dancers may want to improve their skills.  In such 
communities, where improving beyond the mediocre level is unnecessary to 
participate, individuals have little incentive to improve their skills. 
The quality of their own dance experience won't increase appreciably and 
may reduce the number of potential partners with whom it is enjoyable to 
dance.  Moreover, the better-skilled dancers may also find it difficult to 
keep their skills honed while dancing in a community dominated by mediocre 
dancers.

In such a community, a strong personal drive to excel is necessary to 
launch the person well beyond where their own community stands.  But tango 
is a partner dance, and it is better to find at least one partner who is 
willing to work together toward the same goals of excellent dancing--by 
taking some private lessons and practicing a lot.  But even if the couple 
succeeds in developing their skills dramatically, they find themselves 
mired in a community of mediocre dancers.

Perhaps a better idea is to form a small practice group of both men and 
women, in which all the other people have similar goals and are willing to 
work.  The group might want to consider organizing lessons for themselves 
and attending workshops in other cities as a group, etc.   Most 
importantly, everyone in the group must make a committment to developing a 
high level of excellence in tango.  Once the group has succeeded and 
begins attending milongas in the community, everyone in the group will 
have more potential partners at the milongas.  Moreover, the group may act 
as a seed for better dancing in the entire community.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)

From antonst at alidas.com.au  Fri May  2 15:56:15 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 05:56:15 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Musicality and embrace of B.A.
In-Reply-To: <589D51DF29A64E91A85A41CD15000E6F@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF561@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

Thanks for an enlightening post Heather.
Makes me feel that I'm not the only one outside of BA living on a
different Tango planet.

Anton


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri May  2 17:27:47 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:27:47 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] getting educated
Message-ID: <7F3A2215-71B9-4E0C-B6C2-1B5B5A9D9438@gmail.com>

Jeff wrote:

 > So people, what in you opinion would you count as a good basic  
education
 > for someone who wants to do tango?

I would define the skill set that results from a good basic education  
in tango as follows, more or less in order of importance.

- Familiarity with the music (including milonga and vals) so that the  
dancer hears, feels, and can dance to the rhythm, and is sensitive to  
the musical development in typical pieces of tango music.

- For the man, the ability to absorb the music in his body and feel  
immersed in it, and then to transmit what he is feeling in the music  
to his partner.

- For the woman, the ability to absorb the music in her body and feel  
immersed in it, and then to receive and respond to what the man  
transmits.

- For both men and women, an internalized familiarity with the  
characteristic movements of tango, such as walking, crossing, and  
pivoting.

- For the man, a knowledge of how to move his body so as to guide the  
direction of the women's steps.

- For the woman, the knowledge of how to respond to the man's movements.

These skills are acquired by months and years of listening and dancing  
to the music, and practicing, and dancing with good partners.  
Instructors can help in all of this, but for the most part, dancers  
learn by doing and being around tango. The music teaches you, mileage  
on the dance floor teaches you. Watching other good tango dancers  
teaches you.




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 23:26:40 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 20:26:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  getting educated
Message-ID: <629583.56470.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>For the man, the ability to absorb the music in his body and feel  
>immersed in it, and then to transmit what he is feeling in the music  
>to his partner.   -joe
   
  ok..Granted, this is important!...
  Do you 'teach' it?? Wouldn't it be like taking a class in 'Feeling' ?? 
  Would you believe someone who had a PHD in 'Feeling' ?
  I know that we're all concerned with making a living but..
  Can we just leave 'teaching' behind?...isn't there another way??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU64NSfcolc

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 23:33:14 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 20:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Double decker buses?
Message-ID: <708412.66637.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When looking at Tango, one must take into consideration
  not only the culture but the effects on that culture that 
  modern technology is having...today in BsAs.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXzBthVF3I

       
---------------------------------
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Sat May  3 00:08:35 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 23:08:35 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] getting educated
Message-ID: <E742AEA5-9777-424B-A87C-85BCAABAC96D@gmail.com>

Mario says:

> Do you 'teach' it?? Wouldn't it be like taking a class in  
> 'Feeling' ?? Would you believe someone who had a PHD in 'Feeling' ?  
> I know that we're all concerned with making a living but.. Can we  
> just leave 'teaching' behind?...isn't there another way??

A pedagogical role is to create a situation where the learner can  
discover what he or she needs to learn.

I would no more believe in someone with a PhD in "Feeling" than I  
would someone with a PhD in "Tango".

I would like to leave teaching behind.

When the learner seeks advice from the person with more experience,  
what then?

"No, you still don't get it kid. Keep trying." That is one tradition  
of tango.





From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat May  3 08:17:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Musicality and embrace of B.A.
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W4491B1E1065E26442E39C7FCDA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <memo.20080503131728.2028x@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> We need to give followers the ability to say no to leads who don't feel 
> good.

The ability to say no to guys is something girls start out with. So 
perhaps you should consider what it is about your method that has taken it 
away from them, rather than looking to invent a method to restore it.

Again, "If it ain't broke, don't break it."

> This will set an unspoken hierarchy and healthy competition 
> between leads that is based on dancing for the follower's pleasure.

That's natural guy-girl stuff and is not helped by instruction.

Indeed is hindered. E.g. by methods to make the guy "feel successful". 

Guys, set your sights on "Be successful".

--
Chris

PS

> We need to stop letting any instructor come into our communities and
> teach unless, trivial moves, 

Careful. For the most effective way of doing this, see the advice on this 
list from the resident instructors teaching useless, trivial moves.

From febaker at buffalotango.com  Sat May  3 08:25:29 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 08:25:29 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] getting educated
In-Reply-To: <7F3A2215-71B9-4E0C-B6C2-1B5B5A9D9438@gmail.com>
References: <7F3A2215-71B9-4E0C-B6C2-1B5B5A9D9438@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <n4mo14pj57p22h704pfrmr7f79r9mprubd@4ax.com>



You have them listed thing in order of 'importance'.  It's all good...
The 'end result' of all the learning...

But I did notice the order is  just the reverse of a good order to
actually teach and learn to Tango.   It's probably some natural law of
inverse 'something or other' that accounts for it... 

So I've flipped them from top to bottom to show this. 

>- For the woman, the knowledge of how to respond to the man's movements.

>- For the man, a knowledge of how to move his body so as to guide the  
>direction of the women's steps.

What are the leads iow...   

*****

>- For both men and women, an internalized familiarity with the  
>characteristic movements of tango, such as walking, crossing, and  
>pivoting.

How to make use of them.

*****

>- For the woman, the ability to absorb the music in her body and feel  
>immersed in it, and then to receive and respond to what the man  
>transmits.

>- For the man, the ability to absorb the music in his body and feel  
>immersed in it, and then to transmit what he is feeling in the music  
>to his partner.

How to relate to each other and possibly to 'connect'.

*****

>- Familiarity with the music (including milonga and vals) so that the  
>dancer hears, feels, and can dance to the rhythm, and is sensitive to  
>the musical development in typical pieces of tango music.

How to enjoy it fully.   Along with everything else.., the end goal.

*****

Although I'd leave out milonga.  :-)    It's only danced to burn off
excess energy.   I personally rest during milongas.., so I don't have
to rest during the Tangos that follow.  :-)     

Floyd





On Fri, 2 May 2008 16:27:47 -0500, you wrote:

>Jeff wrote:
>
> > So people, what in you opinion would you count as a good basic  
>education
> > for someone who wants to do tango?
>
>I would define the skill set that results from a good basic education  
>in tango as follows, more or less in order of importance.
>
>- Familiarity with the music (including milonga and vals) so that the  
>dancer hears, feels, and can dance to the rhythm, and is sensitive to  
>the musical development in typical pieces of tango music.
>
>- For the man, the ability to absorb the music in his body and feel  
>immersed in it, and then to transmit what he is feeling in the music  
>to his partner.
>
>- For the woman, the ability to absorb the music in her body and feel  
>immersed in it, and then to receive and respond to what the man  
>transmits.
>
>- For both men and women, an internalized familiarity with the  
>characteristic movements of tango, such as walking, crossing, and  
>pivoting.
>
>- For the man, a knowledge of how to move his body so as to guide the  
>direction of the women's steps.
>
>- For the woman, the knowledge of how to respond to the man's movements.
>
>These skills are acquired by months and years of listening and dancing  
>to the music, and practicing, and dancing with good partners.  
>Instructors can help in all of this, but for the most part, dancers  
>learn by doing and being around tango. The music teaches you, mileage  
>on the dance floor teaches you. Watching other good tango dancers  
>teaches you.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From febaker at buffalotango.com  Sat May  3 08:34:53 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 08:34:53 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Musicality and embrace of B.A.
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W4491B1E1065E26442E39C7FCDA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY137-W4491B1E1065E26442E39C7FCDA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <qnmo14tv0ia67kjvna522h59fa8rctj4he@4ax.com>


On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:06:11 +0000, you wrote:
>
>People dance from their environment. Besides our obvious cultural disadvantage we simply don't set up the situational environment or the collective conscious mental state that produces this kind of dancing.
>
>We need smaller more crowded floors. The kind of creativity this produces is superiour. The leads throw out the bullshit and get down to business. This, that can seem like a limitation, actually makes the more intelligent lead with the best reaction time to the floor but also musical options.
>We need leads that educate other leads of the unacceptability of poor floor craft.
>We need to give followers the ability to say no to leads who don't feel good. This will set an unspoken hierarchy and healthy competition between leads that is based on dancing for the follower's pleasure. Our scenes have too many obligatory dancing going on based in being 'friendly'. Followers need an embrace with substance and cadencia. Standardized boring musicality doesn't feel good, neither does over elaborated musicality that is just out to fit in his best moves and prove his knowledge of the music.
>We need dancers who aren't dancing to be admired by the people watching. This means followers too. If your pretty shoes and your perfect boleo are occupying your consciouness...somethings wrong there.
>We need dancers who develop a true sincere emotional attachment to the music.
>
>You can talk to individuals forever about the embrace and musicality of Buenos Aires and it won't change anything until we purposely manipulate the environment and prioritize mentally what is the most important in the dance experience.
>
>Oh Yeah, one more thing- We need to stop letting any instructor come into our communities and teach unless, trivial moves, under the name of 'creativity', that take us farer and farer from what really matters.


 
Heather...

There were some awsome posts yesterday.   Between you, Jeff, Stephen
and Michael, it seems many people have been to Buffalo recently.  ;-) 
Of course there are a lot of very nice people here in Buffalo.., but
for the most part they have stalled out at the 'pattern' level. Being
very busy running the weekly dances, promoting and organizing events,
and not having a money motive, I made little effort to actually teach
Tango myself.   A major mistake.  Unfortunately the job was taken on
by amateurs, carpetbaggers and 'push-pulls', and now most here have
bonded with the wrong ideas.    And they're happy with them. 
So I've already started to do one of the things mentioned in
yesterday's posts. Trying to build a small group of dedicated people
who want to dance Tango as it was meant to be.   A group who'd like to
rise above 'mediocrity'.  

It will be tough.  Most will be new.  And as they start Tango with me,
they'll come in contact with the others.., to hear about all the 'fun'
they're having over there.  But if that's what they want, at least
there's a place for them to go this time.   Tango's not for
everyone.., and hopefully this core will then remain more solid than
the last.   

I'll be running another weekly dance soon to lessen this mixing and to
give the new group a chance to 'get it'.  It will be free to them but
we'll charge for everyone else who shows up.    If they still come,
I'll charge more.

It's not easy teaching a buffalo to Tango.   :-)

Floyd  

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From keith at totango.net  Sat May  3 14:42:44 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 14:42:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally
Message-ID: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>

Floyd wrote:

"Although I'd leave out milonga.  :-)    It's only danced to burn off
excess energy.   I personally rest during milongas.., so I don't have
to rest during the Tangos that follow.  :-)"


Thank goodness Floyd never ceases to share his wisdom and insight. Where
would we all be without it? And here I thought milonga was something very
special that came from the gods to bless our souls.

I shall contemplate flying to Buffalo to learn from Floyd, right after he
achieves his certification from Buenos Aires, as he recommends for all.



From spatz at tangoDC.com  Sat May  3 15:17:56 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 15:17:56 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] arrastre (musical)
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370805021150s50101a94jbf43b78e7717c72d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370805021150s50101a94jbf43b78e7717c72d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481CBA64.3050308@tangoDC.com>

Huck Kennedy wrote:
> I truly admire Jake for the way he's plunged these last few years via 
> research into the deepest depths of tango,
Thank you, Huck. But let me mention that my "research" (hardly) is 
/supplemental/ to dancing.
> but I'd be willing to bet that if you asked 99 out of 100 tango 
> teachers, including the best from Argentina, what an arrastre was, 
> they'd reply that it was a foot drag and wouldn't have the slightest 
> idea that it was also a musical term.
Not remotely true, IME.
> Dancers, even and especially the best ones, don't know diddly about 
> technical music theory.  Hell, they don't even know what syncopation 
> means (they think it means double-timing something), so how are they 
> to be expected to know what an arrastre means in the musical world?
(a) I and plenty of others do not belong to this stereotype.

(b) I've had debates with 'classically trained musicians' over 
syncopation and other terms. The terms are only technical (and fixed in 
their definitions) up to a point, because there are always multiple ways 
to describe musical phenomena. Moreover, rhythm is rhythm, and belongs 
as much to poetry and dance as to "music proper." Musicians do 
occasionally bristle at the notion, but that's what makes it spicy to 
converse with them.

(c) Not even /musicians/ need to know "technical music theory"-- unless 
they're teaching it. It's debatable how much "technical" knowledge 
(i.e., academic knowledge) is even involved in dance music of any kind, 
since such knowledge usually gets INTO the "academy" from outside in the 
first place. Certainly the arrastre is, at best, on the fringe of such a 
category anyway. (If this were otherwise, then you'd hear much more 
arrastre in tango songs composed/performed by classical musicians.)
> I'd also like to ask Jake just exactly what purpose this supposedly de 
> rigueur knowledge serves to the new aspiring dancer. 
Mind you, I posted my qualifications for a good _teacher_. But let me 
take a stab at answering what I interpret your question to be...
> I'm trying to imagine the dialogue:
>
> Official Arrastre-Certified [?] Teacher:  "You hear the way this music 
> goes, "baaaaa-RUMP!!" [accurate sound effect for Canaro, I'd say] It 
> is absolutely essential for you to know that that is called an 
> "arrastre." [graffiti mine]
Actual dialogue from the last First-Day "beginner" classes I've taught:

Jake: You hear that "vvvVOOM" sound? That's THE characteristic of tango 
dance music the way it was played in Argentina. Listen for that feature 
and you'll hear it everywhere. There's even a name for it, but you don't 
need to know it unless you're a teacher; what's important is that you 
dance to it-- the /whole sound/ of it (let's call it the "voom")-- 
because that's the easiest way to catch the swing of the music. And 
guys, if you use it, it makes leading easy for you and dancing easy for 
her. Let me show you how I do it... (etc.)

(Then I demonstrate, in person, with /every single dancer/ there; and 
then I turn them loose on each other again.)
> Student:   "Wow, cosmic, dude!!!  All of a sudden my balance is great 
> now, I'm dancing!!  That's all that was holding me back, thanks!!!"
Actual dialogue (samples, anyway), part II:

Student: Huh, I see what you mean. That's cool.
Jake: That's tango.
Advanced student: Why did no one tell me this before?

I've not seen the person who failed to get this lesson. I've seen many, 
however, who have failed to /retain/ it, and they struggle. Shall I call 
teachers qualified who turn ease into difficulty? Who teach "musicality" 
and "technique" without touching on /the major and most identifiable/ 
characteristic of the music, which is common to all three sub-genres we 
dance to?

The arrastre in the music is the foundation of everything I dance and 
teach, and every /good/ dancer I've partnered knows what it is 
intuitively. That's why it makes my shortlist of qualifications. That's 
why I've spent the last 12 months redoing my music collection to avoid 
mp3s. That's where I stand and that's how I move.

I even spent several days and $100 obtaining a dumb little C/G Anglo 
concertina, just to show people how the sounds are made. (A bandoneon is 
an overgrown Anglo = diatonic concertina.) I give at least that much of 
a quantifiable damn.

If reading this awakens that "critical feeling" in you, great: be 
critical. Just make sure you know whether you're critical of me, or 
yourself, or someone else entirely.

Jake

p.s. A further challenge (since that is what this has become):
  You teachers who count, thus teaching people to dance to the /dots on 
paper/ rather than the sounds as played... do you count /in English/?

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 15:25:23 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 12:25:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dear keith,
Message-ID: <128614.62590.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Keith,
   I like your comment on the Milonga...I feel likewise about the song/dance..I'd go further
   and even say that anyone who cannot dance the Milonga (song), really cannot dance..
    I see the slow tango as possibly the sequencing of a bunch of postured poses..
   while it's impossible to fake a Milonga...you got it or you don't.
    However, I do really appreciate Floyd's cataloging of the points in the video of Alberto
  Dassieu's Vals where that special step and turn is executed...Wow, do you know how
  helpfull that is to someone such as myself (and I'm sure others)..so, we all have some
  thing to contribute here on Tango L.... 
  Anyway..thanks for defending the beautiful Milonga as that specially beautiful beast of a dance that it is....
   The three dances of the Tango is such a beautifull work in itself that...we really only need  go out and enjoy  the darn thing instead of making it another of the fastidious pursuits of perfectionists with hair shirts.
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From spatz at tangoDC.com  Sat May  3 15:58:55 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 15:58:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Getting educated (restated and expanded)
In-Reply-To: <20080502190751.5D7E5236017@p3fed1.frb.org>
References: <20080502190751.5D7E5236017@p3fed1.frb.org>
Message-ID: <481CC3FF.7050602@tangoDC.com>

Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org wrote:
> At some point, most tango dancers choose not to improve because the effort required isn't paid back with a sufficient improvement in the quality of the dance experience.
Excuses, excuses. Selfish excuses.
    * Keep your feet on the floor
    * Collect
    * Know the music
    * Dance with your partner, not with your moves
There is almost zero effort required.
> Improving one's own skills doesn't do much good if one's potential dance partners have mediocre skills.  
Why not?
> The required complementarity of skills in dance partners can lead to a situation in which an entire community remains mired in mediocrity, even though many individual dancers may want to improve their skills.
Wanting to improve and not doing it is the only mire.
> individuals [in such a mire] have little incentive to improve their skills. The quality of their own dance experience won't increase appreciably
Why not?
> and may reduce the number of potential partners with whom it is enjoyable to dance.
Why?

These are the flimsiest of excuses. These amount the same old silly trap 
we've all seen a hundred times. Wanting to HAVE a better partner vs. 
wanting to BE a better partner.
> Moreover, the better-skilled dancers may also find it difficult to keep their skills honed while dancing in a community dominated by mediocre dancers.
Not for long, Steve, if the skill be solid.
> In such a community, a strong personal drive to excel is necessary to launch the person well beyond where their own community stands.
I've read this paragraph four times now. So let me get this straight...

Escaping the mire = Drive to excel...
> But tango is a partner dance, and it is better to find at least one partner who is willing to work together toward the same goals of excellent dancing--by taking some private lessons and practicing a lot.
Escaping the mire = Drive to excel + Partner + Lessons & Practice...
> But even if the couple succeeds in developing their skills dramatically, they find themselves mired in a community of mediocre dancers.
Escaping the mire = Drive to excel + Partner + Lessons & Practice = The 
mire.
> Perhaps a better idea is to form a small practice group of both men and women
Perhaps a better idea is to call oneself a pig if one calls one's 
hometown a sty. That's my medicine when I want to blame others for my 
own lack of light.

I agree that Jeff posed some interesting questions. But he spoke in the 
first person. This hypothetical community you describe, with its 
slapstick logic, doesn't have the answers.

The desire to HAVE a better partner will always be vain, needy, and 
self-defeating. It is probably the opposite of growth. And everything in 
your description, Steve, walks right into this tarpit. If one desires to 
BE a better partner, then /of course/ improving one's own dance (one's 
"skills") will result in better experiences on the floor. /Of course/ it 
will make it more enjoyable to dance with a variety of partners-- 
namely, because when you ARE a good partner, it's less about NEEDING a 
good partner to "dance well."

Now, to talk some plain sense: What, in the first place, does the 
drive-to-excel have to do with /pleasure/? The pursuit of excellence 
_begins_ with throwing that small idea of pleasure (one's own, fleeting, 
vulnerable little pleasure) quite overboard, so it's not a distraction. 
Pursuing one's own excellence is demanding, not comfortable. You start, 
and continue, by declaring yourself (to yourself) NOT satisfied.

The more I re-read your post, the more I see that you're describing the 
pursuit of /attention/. Similar plumes; different bird. Excellence 
doesn't pass the buck to its surroundings: it passes a torch.

Jake


From keith at totango.net  Sat May  3 16:00:55 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 16:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
Message-ID: <61803.65.93.195.126.1209844855.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>

It WAS given to us by the gods to bless our souls with joy and happiness.

But, it seems to me, the essence of milonga is not immediately devined by
the new lover of tango. Milonga is like tango itself; also like what an
interesting woman may do to an ardent gentleman admirer: kind of retreat
behind a veil while the pilgrim makes his journey to a sufficient level of
understanding that the veil may be safely let down for admittance.

My personal intuition is that there is kind of a path a good many people
follow in getting all the way to "getting" tango. We fall in love with the
tango dance; we eventually discover the joys of vals; after that, the
milonga is more accessible.

But, few there seem to be in the lands outside of Argentina who have a
feel for milonga.

The reason for this could be that, being in 2/4, it has the feeling of
being "fast." Dancers who start to enjoy it and sense the fun tend to
"run." Many orchestras have recorded milonga at a tempo pushing the limit
because that's what one does for shows.

So, many will use milonga to kind-of show-off. Even before they have the
skills to do so. In North America, one sees many men just running and
pushing and flailing around - not providing much enjoyment for the
followers who have to run to keep up. Those men are having fun, which is
good. But, the milonga veil is still up for them - or they would not be
that way.

I can only speak of personal experience and that may not be worth much.
But for whatever it's worth, I offer that milonga reveals its true nature
when danced slowly.

Those who attend my milongas or dance milonga with me know that I favour
the slow and moderate-tempo milongas first of all. Canaro (the Master);
Donato (a Genius); and of course moving up the tempo scale to Di Sarli,
D'Arienzo and Troilo (Genius Masters as well).

The veil has been lifted when one enjoys the SLOW milongas (if I may say).

Milonga danced well is very subtle. No wild movements. No running. I
always teach that - though it is very exciting music - the dancer should
be very calm and peaceful inside to dance it well. Purposefully put the
excitement meter on low. Slow the beating heart. Then everything opens up.

When I met with and interviewed maestro Roberto Alvarez of Color Tango, I
told him that to use his milongas when I dj, I slowed them down (without
changing the pitch) 3 B.P.M. so that they are danceable. (He did not take
offense).

You have to breathe when dancing milonga. You can't breathe properly if
your are running.

I recognize that fast milongas bring a lot of joy to many, many dancers. I
play them. But, I work my way up to them. Starting off a milonga tanda
with a really fast milonga doesn't make sense to me, musically. Start with
a slow one; go up in tempo; finish with a fast one. This is my way, at
least.

If the reader is not a milonga fan at this time, please know that your
tango will be much more satisfying to you when you have become a milonga
dancer whom others enjoy dancing it with.

To be a really good tango dancer, it seems one must have a beautiful vals
and a beautiful milonga in them as well. Then, you can dance tango.

All good tango dancers know it.

With kind regards,

Keith

ToTANGO.net






















From febaker at buffalotango.com  Sat May  3 16:05:34 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 16:05:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally
In-Reply-To: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
References: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
Message-ID: <tlfp145l0vuglrmpncqa144em7o1re0fvb@4ax.com>

On Sat, 3 May 2008 14:42:44 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>Floyd wrote:
>
>"Although I'd leave out milonga.  :-)    It's only danced to burn off
>excess energy.   I personally rest during milongas.., so I don't have
>to rest during the Tangos that follow.  :-)"
>
>Thank goodness Floyd never ceases to share his wisdom and insight. Where
>would we all be without it? And here I thought milonga was something very
>special that came from the gods to bless our souls.
>
>I shall contemplate flying to Buffalo to learn from Floyd, right after he
>achieves his certification from Buenos Aires, as he recommends for all.


Well Keith, without my wisdom you might go on your merry old way to
complete and total single mindedness.   A mental disease worse than
senility.  

First of all.., Milonga is not Tango.    It's another dance.., like
Salsa is another dance.   Except that it uses Tango like leads and
imho burns about 10 times the energy of a Tango...  I only care to
Tango.., like I don't care to Salsa.  

Beyond that I'm on the high end of 68 and my comment was meant to be
humorous...?   It seems you don't recognize humour...   I feel for
you...   :-/

Btw, I can do milonga and taspie if asked...    I just don't like to..
It's rather simple actually.   One does not have time to think about
anything.  You just do it, right?    

Tango on...

Floyd


     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From keith at totango.net  Sat May  3 17:03:44 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 17:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga P.S.
Message-ID: <61831.65.93.195.126.1209848624.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>

It might have been useful if I had put the reminder in my post about
milonga that it in fact pre-dated what we know as tango. It is not a
"different" dance than tango - it is a parent of tango.

Teachers with great "wisdom" would be wise to know this before applying
for their certification, Mr. Floyd. It is liable to be question 32(c) on
your little test. Not hopeful of your chances, sir. Perhaps a little
learning before the teaching?

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 17:04:08 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 14:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Musicality and embrace of B.A.
Message-ID: <988421.96721.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I find this music interesting....any info. on where I might find more of the same??
  The dance seems to fit it also...I was wondering, do you thing a close embrace
  demo could work with this or is it strictly Chi Chi?
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYI37RvN2oc

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From tango.society at gmail.com  Sat May  3 17:15:59 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 16:15:59 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
Message-ID: <cff24c340805031415x4b0068f8k6595d660fc88973b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net> wrote:

    But, few there seem to be in the lands outside of Argentina who have a
    feel for milonga.

    The reason for this could be that, being in 2/4, it has the feeling of
    being "fast." Dancers who start to enjoy it and sense the fun tend to
    "run." Many orchestras have recorded milonga at a tempo pushing the limit
    because that's what one does for shows.

I'm not sure what milongas you're referring to that were recorded for
shows. I doubt this was case with the milongas recorded during the 30s
and 40s. Canaro has numerous fast milongas (e.g., 'Milonga brava',
'Parque patricios', 'No hay tierra como la mia') as does Troilo (e.g.,
'Mano brava', 'De pura cepa', 'Ficha de oro') that are standards used
by DJs in Buenos Aires milongas.

    So, many will use milonga to kind-of show-off. Even before they have the
    skills to do so. In North America, one sees many men just running and
    pushing and flailing around - not providing much enjoyment for the
    followers who have to run to keep up.

    I can only speak of personal experience and that may not be worth much.
    But for whatever it's worth, I offer that milonga reveals its true nature
    when danced slowly.

Yes. The key is to take smaller steps and to collect before moving on.
Or using movements that bring the feet together frequently (e.g.,
vai-ven, which incidentally also connects with the '1&2' rhyhtm often
prominent in the bass line of the milonga).

    Those who attend my milongas or dance milonga with me know that I favour
    the slow and moderate-tempo milongas first of all. Canaro (the Master);
    Donato (a Genius); and of course moving up the tempo scale to Di Sarli,
    D'Arienzo and Troilo (Genius Masters as well).

The slow milongas of Canaro are a treasure. Thank you Keith for making
available on your restoration CD collection such gems as 'Negrito; and
'Milonga del 900' which are not readily available in the CD series to
which we normally have access.

    Milonga danced well is very subtle. No wild movements. No running. I
    always teach that - though it is very exciting music - the dancer should
    be very calm and peaceful inside to dance it well. Purposefully put the
    excitement meter on low. Slow the beating heart. Then everything opens up.

I was blessed to see milongueros Pocho and Nelly do a demo to Canaro's
'Milonga del 900' at the recent Chicago Tango Festival. It is exactly
as you say. I see their compact and deliberate yet fully rhythmic
style as a wonderful role model for dancers.

    I recognize that fast milongas bring a lot of joy to many, many dancers. I
    play them. But, I work my way up to them. Starting off a milonga tanda
    with a really fast milonga doesn't make sense to me, musically. Start with
    a slow one; go up in tempo; finish with a fast one. This is my way, at
    least.

When I DJ I try to keep the tempo as constant as possible throughout a
tanda, whether it is tango, milonga or vals. This is because as a
dancer I choose different partners based on the tempo of the music and
 changing the tempo a lot during a tanda can can change the quality of
the dance.

Ron

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat May  3 17:46:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Musicality and embrace of B.A.
In-Reply-To: <988421.96721.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080503224603.2028y@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> I find this music interesting....

It's "Milonga para una armonica" played by Hugo D?az.

> any info. on where I might find more of the same??

That track is on the album "Hugo D?az en Buenos Aires" which is AFAICT now 
out of print, but similar stuff is available on "Tangos" 
http://www.tango.info/07798010678212 .

--
Chris

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com  Sat May  3 17:57:04 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 15:57:04 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Double decker buses?
In-Reply-To: <708412.66637.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <708412.66637.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c8ad68$a1a7c570$4100a8c0@labyrinth>


Absolute Brilliance!!!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Mario
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:33 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Double decker buses?

When looking at Tango, one must take into consideration
  not only the culture but the effects on that culture that 
  modern technology is having...today in BsAs.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXzBthVF3I

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it
now.
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

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From spatz at tangoDC.com  Sat May  3 18:22:21 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 18:22:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga P.S.
In-Reply-To: <61831.65.93.195.126.1209848624.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
References: <61831.65.93.195.126.1209848624.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
Message-ID: <481CE59D.10904@tangoDC.com>

Keith Elshaw wrote:
> It might have been useful if I had put the reminder in my post about milonga that it in fact pre-dated what we know as tango. It is not a "different" dance than tango - it is a parent of tango.
>   
Not the so-called "urban milonga" Canaro introduced in 1932 with 
"Milonga sentimental." That's the milonga we dance to. Can anyone on 
this list /who has danced to the earlier kind/ (there must be a few 
people who have) say the two have much in common?
> Teachers with great "wisdom" would be wise to know this before applying for their certification, Mr. Floyd. It is liable to be question 32(c) on your little test.
Surely question 32(d) would be:
    And how does that "[country] milonga came first" item make any 
difference?
> Perhaps a little learning before the teaching?
"A little learning is a dangerous thing."

Jake


From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Sat May  3 20:32:47 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 02:32:47 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] tango in Sydney, Oz - recommendations please
Message-ID: <20080504003247.189940@gmx.net>

I am down here in Sydney for a week ...
... any recommendations for tango here? 

I am based in a downtown hotel, therefore 'close to Sydney'-locations and for the further away places transport recommendations/instructions very much appreciated.

Thx,
Christian


.

-- 
Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! 
Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer

From larrynla at juno.com  Sat May  3 21:07:57 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 01:07:57 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>

The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.

When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was annoyed.  It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of women dancers.  I was also annoyed because most of the women had all the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast and big movements which endangered others, and so on.

As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less annoyed.  As their average skill level improved they became less dangerous.  It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to be a follower.  I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) leaders better.

Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders demonstrate a technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music.  It took me years to get to the point where I could experience this "Zen tango" while leading and it might have taken longer if I hadn't had some meditation training.

So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in other areas?  And do they lead men a lot?

Larry de Los Angeles

_____________________________________________________________
Looking for insurance?  Click to compare and save big.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifSf08r7S7J1g5xO1uQ8fNnN5BiKtjXfZdaBr2hsiThnIx0m/?count=1234567890




From nina at earthnet.net  Sat May  3 21:22:03 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 19:22:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080503191914.01b2f970@earthnet.net>

"Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men, the other 999 follow women."
Groucho Marx



At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, larrynla at juno.com wrote:
>The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by 
>CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.
>
>When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was 
>annoyed.  It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of 
>women dancers.  I was also annoyed because most of the women had all 
>the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their 
>surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast 
>and big movements which endangered others, and so on.
>
>As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less 
>annoyed.  As their average skill level improved they became less 
>dangerous.  It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to 
>be a follower.  I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) leaders better.
>
>Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders 
>demonstrate a technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't 
>have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and 
>enjoy the music.  It took me years to get to the point where I could 
>experience this "Zen tango" while leading and it might have taken 
>longer if I hadn't had some meditation training.
>
>So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise 
>in other areas?  And do they lead men a lot?
>
>Larry de Los Angeles
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Looking for insurance?  Click to compare and save big.
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifSf08r7S7J1g5xO1uQ8fNnN5BiKtjXfZdaBr2hsiThnIx0m/?count=1234567890
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From bafonso at gmail.com  Sat May  3 21:34:11 2008
From: bafonso at gmail.com (Bruno Afonso)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:34:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] arrastre (musical)
In-Reply-To: <481CBA64.3050308@tangoDC.com>
References: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370805021150s50101a94jbf43b78e7717c72d@mail.gmail.com>
	<481CBA64.3050308@tangoDC.com>
Message-ID: <4f5d14730805031834u628a87e7q4c6765639fc2f5d5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

One should weary of musical interpretation imposition. Music is to be
interpreted by each dancer (both roles) and that is what makes them
(hopefully) unique.

A great teacher will convey the ideas and the tools to explore the
music and how certain things are commonly named (they're just that).
It will also create space for the student to do his own search and
limit boundaries to the minimum possible. It will let the student
appropriate himself of his findings and build his own notion as to
what tango music is, what makes it tango and danceable the way we love
it.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that tango music is
fundamentally by on arrastre, glissando, slur or whatever you want to
call it. Most of us know tango pieces without it. Poema comes to my
mind. Defining tango music and dancing in function of a musical
concept is kind of insulting persons that have listened, studied and
danced for years tango music. If you're composing tango music, I'd say
that it is not the first thing that comes into your mind or the first
in your priority list.

Concerning dancing to the dots on paper vs sounds, if the paper is
well made, that is, the music score sheet I assume, they will be
dancing to them on the music or not. It's up for interpretation. The
score will have - within boundaries - the info necessary to play it
syncopated or whatever.

If I am allowed to, may I suggest that everyone should dial down a bit
the fundamentalism. All things considered, there isn't a perfect
teacher, a perfect musical interpretation or concept even.

Great teachers become evident to anyone serious about tango. It takes
time but you need to go through the process.

b
-- 
Bruno Afonso
http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

From nina at earthnet.net  Sat May  3 21:37:20 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 19:37:20 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080503191914.01b2f970@earthnet.net>
References: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080503191914.01b2f970@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080503192958.01bc6258@earthnet.net>

Larry,

First, I had to laugh.  Now I can be serious.

So where did the men get the naive idea that following is not having 
"to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and
enjoy the music." ?!

I think that you should follow, but not a woman.  Follow a man who is 
good, and do wear 4" heels while dancing with him. (any 
transvestite/stage costume store should have something that you can 
use in large enough of a size to fit a man's foot).  And listen 
carefully to his musicality so that your feel land on the music.  If 
this works out right away, make sure that your body moves in such a 
way that everybody will know instantly that the man you are dancing 
with is a great dancer.   Start with that, if you dare.

I'd love to hear the report.

Best,

Nina

>At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, larrynla at juno.com wrote:
> >The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by
> >CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.
> >
> >When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was
> >annoyed.  It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of
> >women dancers.  I was also annoyed because most of the women had all
> >the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their
> >surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast
> >and big movements which endangered others, and so on.
> >
> >As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less
> >annoyed.  As their average skill level improved they became less
> >dangerous.  It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to
> >be a follower.  I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) 
> leaders better.
> >
> >Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders
> >demonstrate a technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't
> >have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and
> >enjoy the music.  It took me years to get to the point where I could
> >experience this "Zen tango" while leading and it might have taken
> >longer if I hadn't had some meditation training.
> >
> >So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise
> >in other areas?  And do they lead men a lot?
> >
> >Larry de Los Angeles
> >
> >_____________________________________________________________
> >Looking for insurance?  Click to compare and save big.
> >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifSf08r7S7J1g5xO1 
> uQ8fNnN5BiKtjXfZdaBr2hsiThnIx0m/?count=1234567890
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Tango-L mailing list
> >Tango-L at mit.edu
> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From stermitz at tango.org  Sat May  3 21:42:24 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 19:42:24 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga P.S.
In-Reply-To: <61831.65.93.195.126.1209848624.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
References: <61831.65.93.195.126.1209848624.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
Message-ID: <82600E26-A419-423F-9BDA-B49001073F52@tango.org>

Umm... Milonga is a child of tango, not a parent. In the twenties,  
there was a range of tango-tango/milonga-milonga. Milonga became  
differentiated from tango in the 1930s as tangos slowed down, and  
milongas sped up, and the candombera feeling was put into the milonga.

There was a different music called milonga in the 1800s, but that  
isn't what we are talking about when we discuss milonga.


On May 3, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote:

> It might have been useful if I had put the reminder in my post about
> milonga that it in fact pre-dated what we know as tango. It is not a
> "different" dance than tango - it is a parent of tango.
>
> Teachers with great "wisdom" would be wise to know this before  
> applying
> for their certification, Mr. Floyd. It is liable to be question  
> 32(c) on
> your little test. Not hopeful of your chances, sir. Perhaps a little
> learning before the teaching?
> _______________________________________________

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat May  3 23:04:50 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:04:50 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally
In-Reply-To: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
References: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
Message-ID: <5E2C0AC54E4F429090A1960049119F68@homePC>

I used to call the milonga the lithmus test that shows whether somebody can 
really dance tango or not.



> Floyd wrote:
>
> "Although I'd leave out milonga.  :-)    It's only danced to burn off
> excess energy.   I personally rest during milongas.., so I don't have
> to rest during the Tangos that follow.  :-)"
>
Keith answered:
> Thank goodness Floyd never ceases to share his wisdom and insight. 


From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Sat May  3 23:09:07 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:09:07 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0805032009k44a39380q73075f3212ef9e78@mail.gmail.com>

Now; when I count my blessings at the end of each day, I can add: 'I do not
live in LA'

Neil

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 23:21:09 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 03:21:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga P.S. - Its evolution I
Message-ID: <BAY105-W444C73C818AC1F0577AF6297D40@phx.gbl>



Jake asks: "Not the so-called "urban milonga" Canaro introduced in 1932 with "Milonga sentimental." That's the milonga we dance to. Can anyone on this list /who has danced to the earlier kind/ (there must be a few people who have) say the two have much in common?"

What follows is my opinion on this subject, others may have a different one.

I will divide this note into two, so that it is not too long.

The "Original" milonga was born in rural areas. It was exclusively sung and had an accompaniment of guitar.

Gauchos (cowboys) gathered after work around the fire, took their guitars out and entertained themselves with a 
type of rap contest, called "Payadas".   A subject was determined by the attendants, this subject could be  on philosophical matters such as God, life, death, passion, or something such as work, pain, travel, etc, etc.

Two gauchos would compete in a payada, one would sing first and the others would follow answering whatever
the first one had said.

This "Payadas" eventually evolved into two gauchos playing guitar, competing with each other, but without singing.
Then one gaucho alone would play guitar and sing.  At this point the Milonga was born.
It was called Milonga Campera (rural Milonga), or Miolonga Criolla (Creole Milonga) or Milonga Sure?a )Southern
Milonga).
 
The name "Milonga" was given by African slaves, to this musical events . In their African language "Mulonga" means
"many, many words".  To them everything seemed to be just words. Eventually some of them became famous
payadores.

Best regards, Sergio




 


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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 23:31:14 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 03:31:14 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga P.S. - Its evolution II - Videos
Message-ID: <BAY105-W52C3C88779147C11CB86AF97D40@phx.gbl>




Evolution of the Milonga Campera (Rural Milonga):

1 - Two gauchos compite singing with guitar accompaniment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2w-SxQ5bYc
 Payadores "Raperos Rurales"
Ricardo Pino y Wilson Saliwonczyk XXXX Payada  "Viajar".

2 - Competition or execution of music by two guitar players, without singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHEwt5JetQ  Dos guitarras sin cantar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHEwt5JetQ  Dos guitarras sin cantar

Ruben del Solar and Daniel Temporelli

3 - There is only one singer accompanied by guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKFjtkI3r7U Milonga Criolla - Campera- 
Sure?a   Un solo cantor


4 - Young people nowadays experiment, creating their own Milongas Camperas for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM__QyJ16oU  Young people experiment

5 - People in Argentina, frequently bring their guitars to family reunions or parties.

    They sing all type of songs, as entertaiment after dinner.  In rural areas they still
"play" at creating  'Payadas" for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlcQPjUJjaY  Family reunion "Tres Arroyos - B.A.)

Sebastian Piana, changed this tyoe of milonga (Campera- rural) to the modern version

that usually is danced...but this a whole different story.

Summary: Milonga is milonga. It has evolved or changed over time. The milonga campera is fundamentally for
 
plying guitar and singing, the Urban type is fundamentally for dancing.

To answer Jake's question: The milonga campera was one of Tango roots. Some early tangos are very
close to the milonga rythm.  El Porte?ito - El esquinazo -

With best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008

From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Sat May  3 23:36:34 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 23:36:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <8CA7BAF2F5DCDE8-D2C-60CD@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>

.. I am a "lady who leads"....actually, most of the time now....I have 
only danced, with any success, with 2 men as followers.  I have tried 
with others, but I have found that male followers have a tendency to 
settle back on their heels and "grow roots" into the floor with every 
step, and as suggested by Nina, it's really hard to talk them into 4" 
inch heels :)

Your description of following, as Nina points out, leaves a whole bunch 
of stuff out, but I am willing to assume that you were just trying to 
find the words to describe the experience.  I know I am not always sure 
how to describe the difference, but there is a big one.  As I said when 
someone asked me which I prefer, I genuinely enjoy both leading and 
following - for completely different reasons because they are very 
different experiences.

I am surprised that you found women to be insensitive, too "fancy,"  
etc.  I learned as a follow, and repeatedly tell new leaders, no amount 
of fancy steps can substitute for a warm embrace and musicality.  Not 
that I didn't try to learn some of the fancy steps as a new lead, but I 
don't worry about them very much when I am at a milonga....and 
certainly a lot less than some of the male leads I see/dance with.

I would really love to hear from other women who lead...

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
To: tango-L at mit.edu
Sent: Sat, 3 May 2008 9:07 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading






The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by
CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead.  I intend to go as a follower.

When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was annoyed.  It 
meant
that TWO women were taken out of the pool of women dancers.  I was also 
annoyed
because most of the women had all the bad qualities of beginning 
leaders:
insensitivity to their surroundings, trying movements too advanced for 
them,
trying fast and big movements which endangered others, and so on.

As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less annoyed.  
As their
average skill level improved they became less dangerous.  It also 
dawned on me
that here was a chance to learn to be a follower.  I'd heard that 
learning to
follow made (most) leaders better.

Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders 
demonstrate a
technique by leading me in it.  It was fun.  I didn't have to think or 
be
responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music.  It 
took me
years to get to the point where I could experience this "Zen tango" 
while
leading and it might have taken longer if I hadn't had some meditation 
training.

So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in 
other
areas?  And do they lead men a lot?

Larry de Los Angeles

_____________________________________________________________
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From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Sat May  3 23:54:21 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 23:54:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally
In-Reply-To: <5E2C0AC54E4F429090A1960049119F68@homePC>
References: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
	<5E2C0AC54E4F429090A1960049119F68@homePC>
Message-ID: <8CA7BB1AB78FA28-D2C-6125@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>

I love milonga - and nothing frustrates me more than a lead who dances 
it as a fast tango......

two of my most memorable dances have been milongas - one at a practica 
in a fancy sandwich shop when my partner and I (I was leading) found a 
great connection, and everyone else on the floor also connected with 
each other.  When the music ended (Tango Negro) we all just stood there 
for a couple of minutes - amazed at what had just happened.

Another was with a lead who I have had a number of nice dances with, 
but this was one of those times that, for whatever reason, the 
connection at that moment, in that place, to that music was like magic.

b

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp>
To: Keith Elshaw <keith at totango.net>; tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:04 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally






I used to call the milonga the lithmus test that shows whether somebody 
can
really dance tango or not.



> Floyd wrote:
>
> "Although I'd leave out milonga.  :-)    It's only danced to burn off
> excess energy.   I personally rest during milongas.., so I don't have
> to rest during the Tangos that follow.  :-)"
>
Keith answered:
> Thank goodness Floyd never ceases to share his wisdom and insight.

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l






From romerob at telusplanet.net  Sun May  4 11:01:22 2008
From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net)
Date: Sun,  4 May 2008 08:01:22 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] another origin of the Milonga - Brasil
Message-ID: <1209913282.481dcfc252cf8@webmail.telus.net>

This is my translation of a section from an article by Juan Carlos Caceres.

Source:Nana Garc?a
Santa Cruz de Tenerife
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/diariodeavisos/content/290430/


Diluted Origens

With the pass of time Tango has become a music style recognized in the whole 
world, however when we spoke about the origins of tango it became a subject of 
antagonism, because at determined time there was a negation of our political 
and social history in our country. A culture was fabricated to showcase 
immigrants and denying our past.

This is how the tango as an artistic expression was born through a process of 
multicultural multiethnic mixing between the massive European immigration, 
which settled in the Rio de la Plata and at the end of the 19th century and the 
native population: where one third was black.

Paradoxically the tango was the result of the mixing and therefore was 
considered the music of the dispossessed. 
First, of all the places which congregated in a spontaneous manner, the 
interchange of their cultural their cultural differences resulted in the Tango.

Of the black sources in tango, which Carlos Caceres considers the most hidden 
part, the dance was born. This is the most popular expression of urban roots.

According to the musician, the first musicians and dancers were afro argentines 
and afro Uruguayans. After the second half of the nineteen century they 
distance themselves of their African heritage and cult to the voodoo and 
macumba practices, and recovered the rhythm, and the candombe. Then, they 
continue mixing spontaneously with the couple dances given as result the Cuban 
habanera and the milonga at the south of Brazil.

Carlos Caceres recognizes that the tango primitivo is not related to the tango 
nowadays, which he thinks has become a commercialized dance, and despite its 
flaws, a music foundation of high quality has been created.

With the pass of time Carlos considers that this Tango music became 
sophisticated and was made more European. It dressed up in tuxedo in Paris, and 
afterwards returns to Argentina, and continues with its well know history. This 
part of Tango is of least interest to Carlos Caceres, although his 
interpretations are modern.

Author of reference

With 72 years of age Juan Carlos Caceres has become an obligated author of 
reference for many artists inside and outside of Argentina, not only because of 
his persistent research on the roots of tango, which he references in his 
compositions as author and composer, but rather as the alma mater of the mythic 
cave called ?Pasarotus?. This is a jazz club and meeting point of revolutionary 
tendencies in his native Buenos Aires.

In addition to an ample public in Europe and Asia, artists like Fito Paez, 
Calamaro and the Makaroff brothers celebrate him dearly.

In addition to an ample public in Europe and Asia, artists like Fito paez, 
Calamaro and the Makaroff brothers celebrate him dearly.





From jackie.wong at adelphia.net  Sun May  4 10:58:45 2008
From: jackie.wong at adelphia.net (jackie ling wong)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 10:58:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] community - need insight
Message-ID: <34B3C56A-3F24-4788-9329-03815933F52A@adelphia.net>

hey everyone,
i need your insight.

i have a regional calendar on my website to provide all the  
opportunities to dance in our community,  it covers one and half hours  
of driving in any direction.  it can also be a planning tool for  
organizers so that we don't step on each others toes.  there are  
rarely conflicts and those are usually worked out between the  
organizers by co-sponsoring an event, ect.  we have been a relatively  
happy community.

here's what has occurred recently.  setting  ...  two organizers (A  
and B) are 1 hour away from each other.  their communities cross  
pollenate.  one of the organizers (A) was the DJ for THE milonga in  
the other organizer's (B) community and was asked to take over as the  
host when that organizer (not A or B)left the country.  the other  
events in that city were given to a local person (B) to run.

organizer A has guest instructors come to their community to teach and  
they will also have them teach a workshop prior to this milonga.  what  
has happened is -  organizer B agreed to have a free event for  
pedestrian traffic on a night that the city sponsors free art and  
cultural events.  this happens once a month but on the night of the  
other organizer's milonga.  it ends right when the milonga begins and  
overlaps the workshops.  organizer B sent emails and has this event  
posted on the calendar.  (not just seeking pedestrian traffic in my  
opinion.)  Organizer B  is currently running two practicas every week  
(one with workshops), and one day of workshops and a new milonga every  
month.  so....

i know that this can be solved.  maybe i'm an optimist but the rest of  
us (other organizers) manage to play nice with one another.  i have a  
possible solution but i want your thoughts and insights also.  if you  
were organizer A, would you be upset?  how does your community work?

and if anyone thinks this is not tango related... you're wrong.  many  
tango communities have been ripped apart by this type of conflict.  
this affects the dancing.

jackie
www.tangopulse.net



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sun May  4 11:11:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080504161111.3248Q@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in 
> other areas?

Where in Europe it was strongest - Berlin - it's now in decline. That's 
natural die-back post cessation of Ladies Leading workshops run locally by 
a German lady who thankfully now spends more time teaching in the US.

I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda 
disruptors.

Many of the few left still are. Sort of like children playing on tarmac 
that looks like their school playground, but is in fact a motorway...

I think the problem is having no clue as to the guy-guy thing that makes 
the ronda happen. Which I guess is not their fault, having learnt in a 
studio that doesn't have a working ronda, rather than in a milonga that 
does. And not even having a guy as teacher! ;)

--
Chris

PS

> Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 

No, and asking another twenty times won't change that! ;)

From romerob at telusplanet.net  Sun May  4 11:44:42 2008
From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net)
Date: Sun,  4 May 2008 08:44:42 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Update on another origin of the Milonga - Brasil
Message-ID: <1209915882.481dd9eaada93@webmail.telus.net>

Missed sentence, has been now included

>They (blacks) arrived subsequently at at the Rio de la Plata because of the 
war, and what comes from the mix of milonga habanera and candombe results in 
Tango<

Thanks,

Bruno
------------------------------------
Diluted Origens

With the pass of time Tango has become a music style recognized in the whole 
world, however when we spoke about the origins of tango it became a subject of 
antagonism, because at determined time there was a negation of our political 
and social history in our country. A culture was fabricated to showcase 
immigrants and denying our past.

This is how the tango as an artistic expression was born through a process of 
multicultural multiethnic mixing between the massive European immigration, 
which settled in the Rio de la Plata and at the end of the 19th century and the 
native population: where one third was black.

Paradoxically the tango was the result of the mixing and therefore was 
considered the music of the dispossessed. 
First, of all the places which congregated in a spontaneous manner, the 
interchange of their cultural their cultural differences resulted in the Tango.

Of the black sources in tango, which Carlos Caceres considers the most hidden 
part, the dance was born. This is the most popular expression of urban roots.

According to the musician, the first musicians and dancers were afro argentines 
and afro Uruguayans. After the second half of the nineteen century they 
distance themselves of their African heritage and cult to the voodoo and 
macumba practices, and recovered the rhythm, and the candombe. Then, they 
continue mixing spontaneously with the couple dances given as result the Cuban 
habanera and the milonga at the south of Brazil.

>They (blacks) arrived subsequently at at the Rio de la Plata because of the 
war, and what comes from the mix of milonga habanera and candombe results in 
Tango<

Carlos Caceres recognizes that the tango primitivo is not related to the tango 
nowadays, which he thinks has become a commercialized dance, and despite its 
flaws, a music foundation of high quality has been created.

With the pass of time Carlos considers that this Tango music became 
sophisticated and was made more European. It dressed up in tuxedo in Paris, and 
afterwards returns to Argentina, and continues with its well know history. This 
part of Tango is of least interest to Carlos Caceres, although his 
interpretations are modern.

Author of reference

With 72 years of age Juan Carlos Caceres has become an obligated author of 
reference for many artists inside and outside of Argentina, not only because of 
his persistent research on the roots of tango, which he references in his 
compositions as author and composer, but rather as the alma mater of the mythic 
cave called ?Pasarotus?. This is a jazz club and meeting point of revolutionary 
tendencies in his native Buenos Aires.

In addition to an ample public in Europe and Asia, artists like Fito Paez, 
Calamaro and the Makaroff brothers celebrate him dearly.

Nana Garc?a
Santa Cruz de Tenerife
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/diariodeavisos/content/290430/



In addition to an ample public in Europe and Asia, artists like Fito paez, 
Calamaro and the Makaroff brothers celebrate him dearly.





From nina at earthnet.net  Sun May  4 13:05:29 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 11:05:29 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080504161111.3248Q@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <20080503.180757.24709.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>
	<memo.20080504161111.3248Q@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504104230.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>

Chris,

I am glad that it seems to be in decline in Europe.  Women are 
terrible leads.  Even the best of them.  The problem is a lack of 
testosterone and socialization in male roles.  I stress 
"socialization", and not "male roles'.

It works for stage, and very well at times.  But as a social dance, 
it does not work.  I don't think that people can walk away from 
gender roles and feel just as well as when they are within them (if 
those gender roles work for them in life, that is).

In my experience, regrdless of the fact that I had leaned from 
fabulous Argentine male dancers, and have danced both parts from the 
beginning of my training over a decade ago. it does not work for me 
socially to walk out into the dance floor in a male role of the 
dance, dance with the women, then switch my role again and try to 
dance with the men with whom I just "competed" for space/partners/etc.

If the dance if to be danced well, some of the energy of the gender 
roles needs to be preserved.  Otherwise, we will be dancing amoeba 
tango.  I have never seen any women, whose lead deserved any 
attention, at any of the milongas, including la Marshall in BsAs.

So, can women lead as well or better as men?  My answer is no.  Can 
men follow?  Oh, yes.  Another man and better than most women that I have seen.

Those that have questions about this topic should go dance at La 
Marshall.  There is some amazing social dancing to be seen there, all 
danced by the men.

Best,

Nina





At 09:11 AM 5/4/2008, Chris, UK wrote:
> > So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in
> > other areas?
>
>Where in Europe it was strongest - Berlin - it's now in decline. That's
>natural die-back post cessation of Ladies Leading workshops run locally by
>a German lady who thankfully now spends more time teaching in the US.
>
>I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda
>disruptors.
>
>Many of the few left still are. Sort of like children playing on tarmac
>that looks like their school playground, but is in fact a motorway...
>
>I think the problem is having no clue as to the guy-guy thing that makes
>the ronda happen. Which I guess is not their fault, having learnt in a
>studio that doesn't have a working ronda, rather than in a milonga that
>does. And not even having a guy as teacher! ;)
>
>--
>Chris
>
>PS
>
> > Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
>
>No, and asking another twenty times won't change that! ;)
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sun May  4 13:14:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504104230.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <memo.20080504181430.3248T@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> So, can women lead as well or better as men?  My answer is no.  Can 
> men follow?  Oh, yes.

Very true. Leading comes from the Y chromosome, and following from the X. ;)

--
Chris

From nina at earthnet.net  Sun May  4 13:24:30 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 11:24:30 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080504181430.3248T@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504104230.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>
	<memo.20080504181430.3248T@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504111949.01b7d188@earthnet.net>

Chris,

You are brilliant,  This is the best explanation.  And the shortest 
one.  Need to add the scoialization part, since things happen after 
the chromosomes come together and before tango happens.  I guess that 
would be culture, but I don't want to talk about culture anymore!:)

Thank you!

Nina


At 11:14 AM 5/4/2008, Chris, UK wrote:
> > So, can women lead as well or better as men?  My answer is no.  Can
> > men follow?  Oh, yes.
>
>Very true. Leading comes from the Y chromosome, and following from the X. ;)
>
>--
>Chris
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
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From keith at totango.net  Sun May  4 13:26:16 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:26:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <61572.69.159.127.109.1209921976.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

Man though I am, I shall dare to offer another way of thinking about it all.

There is a very good reason why many women decide to give leading a go: so
they don't have to sit all night.

Typically, there are more good women dancers than men. Most of the women I
have seen, in many cities, giving lead a serious try is so that (as single
women) they don't get bored out of their minds every time they go out. I'm
on their side. Stay at home - or lead a bit? Why not?

No one should feel threatened.

Of course, they find me a willing partner and a help if they are seeking
that. The ladies who lead me are social friends and we are having fun for
a few minutes. Real tango fun.

It's a growing trend. 'Gonna happen whether people like it or not.






From nina at earthnet.net  Sun May  4 13:42:55 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 11:42:55 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Salud, Dinero y Amor
In-Reply-To: <61572.69.159.127.109.1209921976.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com
 >
References: <61572.69.159.127.109.1209921976.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504113903.01bc05f0@earthnet.net>

Dear dancers, musicians, and poets,

I have found two versions of this vals - Rodriguez y Canaro.  Are 
there any others?  I must have them all (some wonder "why bother?", 
right?  Well, it is my drinking song :).  Please let me know if you 
know of any other recordings.

Many thanks,

Nina 


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 14:16:43 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <311939.67898.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OMG! = What could be hotter than this??
  Valya  +   Silvina
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y

       
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From larrynla at juno.com  Sun May  4 16:20:00 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 20:20:00 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <20080504.132000.19298.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>

Nina Pesochinsky------------------------------->
So where did the men get the naive idea that following is not having "to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music." ?!  [followed by some of the problems women have dancing]

"THE men"?  Gotta watch that generalizing from one man to all!  THEY are not to blame for my, ahm, crimes.

And you mean that every dance experience I have as a follower is not going to be, or even approach, the ideal experience? Darn.


buffmilonguera------------------------------->
I am surprised that you found women to be insensitive, too "fancy," etc.  I learned as a follow, and repeatedly tell new leaders, no amount of fancy steps can substitute for a warm embrace and musicality.  Not that I didn't try to learn some of the fancy steps as a new lead, but I don't worry about them very much when I am at a milonga....and certainly a lot less than some of the male leads I see/dance with.

"you found women to be insensitive, too 'fancy,' etc."

Nope.  I specifically said "MOST women" leaders.  Maybe MANY or SOME would have been more accurate, but it's the worst offenders who we remember.  As we must.  It's a leaders job to avoid the bad leaders so that we can protect our partners from them.

Women on the average likely will bring different advantages (and disadvantages) to leading.  But few are immune to the same problems most male leaders have, especially when beginning to learn leading.  One of those is dealing with a lot of sensory input from the surroundings and navigating them.

Another is wanting to give your partner a special experience, which includes fancying up the 'steps' one leads.  A "warm embrace and musicality" is certainly important, maybe more important than any other part of dancing.  But repeating the same patterns over and over again with no variety is going to bore some followers.  Also, many women I know spend a lot of time working to make whip-crack smart their boleos, ganchos, golpecitos, and such and would be disappointed not to be given chances to use them.


Chris, UK (excerpt) ------------------------------->
"I think the problem is having no clue as to the guy-guy thing that makes the ronda happen"

I've never noticed that guys were naturally all that adept at making the ronda happen, either.  Especially when beginning to dance, it's not easy to stay aware of all that's going on around us AND attend to your partner's special problems AND interpret the music etc.

In fact, women may "naturally" be better leaders. Brain function research suggests that ON THE AVERAGE women do mental time-sharing better than men, while men on the average are better at focusing all their attention on one target.

Larry de Los Angeles

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From keith at totango.net  Sun May  4 19:56:27 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies leading, etc.
Message-ID: <61623.69.159.127.189.1209945387.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

Interesting thing happened today after I sent my post.

I then went to run my Sunday afternoon milonga.

A bunch of people from an east-coast American city (who I knew because I
have dj-ed there) showed up ...

A few men who like to follow and a woman who likes to lead.

The role-reversal thing is a happening phenomenon.

Like it, or not.

Anything that is happening, you can experience in Montreal. Apparently.




From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sun May  4 23:11:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 04:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Salud, Dinero y Amor
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080504113903.01bc05f0@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <memo.20080505041155.3248U@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Are there any others?  I must have them all (some wonder "why bother?", 
> right?  Well, it is my drinking song :).

There's also a version by Trio Argentino (Agust?n Irusta, Roberto Fugazot 
and Lucio Demare):

 http://www.tango.info/08427328130462/1/4

... sounding like the singers have put it to the same use. ;)

--
Chris

From bafonso at gmail.com  Sun May  4 23:59:19 2008
From: bafonso at gmail.com (Bruno Afonso)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:59:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Seeing the light, finally
In-Reply-To: <8CA7BB1AB78FA28-D2C-6125@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
References: <61754.65.93.195.126.1209840164.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>
	<5E2C0AC54E4F429090A1960049119F68@homePC>
	<8CA7BB1AB78FA28-D2C-6125@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4f5d14730805042059s4ff3be38p4a4bd7be373966af@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/3/08, buffmilonguera at aol.com <buffmilonguera at aol.com> wrote:
> I love milonga - and nothing frustrates me more than a lead who dances
>  it as a fast tango......

Bingo! Also, I find that the challenge is to dance it without having
to burn that crazy amount of energy that everyone believes they have
to. Small, rhythmic moves...

b
-- 
Bruno Afonso
http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 02:59:17 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] community - need insight
In-Reply-To: <34B3C56A-3F24-4788-9329-03815933F52A@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <66126.46368.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi Jackie,

If I were organizer A, I'd do one heck of a job promoting
my instructors for the workshop.  But I also wouldn't go
overboard and give people the feeling that their asking to
choose loyalties (it doesn't do anyone any good if the
attendees don't feel good about their choices).  Not
everyone is going to be able to make (or might be
interested in) going to the workshop.  So what would it
matter if they went to the city event instead?  The city
event could still be a great opportunity to promote future
workshops for organizer A, perhaps even getting new people
to the milonga later that night.  

It's very likely that people would choose the workshop over
the city event.  For the city event, I get the impression
that all organizer B needs is to represent the tango
community.  If people feel that there is at least some
representation of tango at the free event, then  they'll
feel comfortable going to the workshop.  And of course,
out-of-towners (who tend to be the better dancers in a
community) will go to the workshop/milonga.

Here, when a promotional event happens, only a small
segment of the tango community ever goes.  Most people
aren't interested in being on display, so they won't go. 
Many people are also not comfortable going up to perfect
strangers and doing a sales pitch for tango.  Those people
are not going to go to the city event.  And as long as
organzer B gets 2-6 good friendly dancers, then he/she will
be happy.  It's much better to have a small group of
quality dancers than a large number of mediocre/bad
dancers.  (That's how I would look at it as organizer B.) 
Some people would also not be interested in driving to two
different places.  Those people would choose the workshop.

I'm making some assumptions, here, such as the pre-milonga
classes are normally well-attended.  I've never have much
luck with those, so I don't do them.  There'll be some loss
of attendance, but it will just be small.  Personally, I
enjoy a little competition because it makes me have to
think more sharply and more creatively than I otherwise
might.  That could create some excitement and make a better
final product.  That might not work for everyone.  Whatever
happens, be positive to the public and keep your fears to
yourself (complain only in private to a few trusted
people).  You'd want an environment of excitement and good
vibes for the workshop.

Of course, if I was organizer B, my thoughts might be a
little different.  But since you asked about A...

Trini de Pittsburgh



PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



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From Crrtango at aol.com  Mon May  5 07:44:29 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 07:44:29 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L]  Media lunas (edible) at 5:00 AM
Message-ID: <cfe.2eb1018e.35504d1d@aol.com>

I received a request for contact information for El Chino from someone 
(Christine) heading to Bs. As. but accidentally deleted it...my sincere apologies.   
Would you please send it again?

Thanks,
Charles


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From musettefan at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 13:02:42 2008
From: musettefan at yahoo.com (musette fan)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] New Tango Documentary  - call for dancers
In-Reply-To: <66126.46368.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <225659.69884.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Not sure if this has been posted to the list yet or not, so in case not.....



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From musettefan at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 13:06:41 2008
From: musettefan at yahoo.com (musette fan)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] New Tango Documentary  - call for dancers
Message-ID: <309709.40003.qm@web53503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

ooops, I accidentally sent it without the link below.  The documentary is about
social dancing, it seems, and is hosted by Robert Duval. Pablo Veron is also
involved.

 www.seducedbytango.com 


--- musette fan <musettefan at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Not sure if this has been posted to the list yet or not, so in case not.....
> 
> 
> 
>      
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> 



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From shelleydelayne at sbcglobal.net  Mon May  5 13:16:29 2008
From: shelleydelayne at sbcglobal.net (Shelley Delayne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:16:29 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <62B338C3-2056-4401-A7F9-CBCCD8455C4C@sbcglobal.net>

As a lady who plans to go to the new "Leading Ladies" practica in LA  
and is entirely grateful for its inception, I thought I'd throw in my  
point of view, lest the lovely organizer of said practica takes  
umbrage at all the outrage over ladies leading, and cancels the  
practica.

Maybe some of the women who will go to this practica lead socially,  
or plan to. I don't know.
Personally, I don't ever plan to or want to lead at a "regular" milonga.

However, I very much want to improve my understanding of the dance by  
learning to lead. Someday in the distant future, I would love to be a  
teacher of tango and being able to understand leading as well as  
following will, I feel, make me a much better teacher when that time  
comes. Also, when trying to tempt non-tango friends to try tango, I  
have discovered that leading them in even a small bit of tango piques  
their interest FAR more than any of my verbal enthusiasms about the  
dance. : )

And thus, I am very, very excited that there will be a "private"  
setting where I can practice leading.

: )


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon May  5 13:55:09 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:55:09 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] arrastre (musical)
In-Reply-To: <481C0E02.9070607@tangoDC.com>
References: <2699321B-05D8-48F2-A704-17B0D594BF30@gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370805021150s50101a94jbf43b78e7717c72d@mail.gmail.com>
	<481C0E02.9070607@tangoDC.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370805051055j1631312i4ca0f4f04b9e1569@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Jake Spatz <spatz at tangodc.com> wrote:
> Huck Kennedy wrote:
>
> > but I'd be willing to bet that if you asked 99 out of 100 tango teachers,
> including the best from Argentina, what an arrastre was, they'd reply that
> it was a foot drag and wouldn't have the slightest idea that it was also a
> musical term.
> >
> Not remotely true, IME.

     Of course it's true.  Just look in any tango glossary, the
assumption being that what's in all of them reflects the consensus of
tango "reality," as it were.

> > Dancers, even and especially the best ones, don't know diddly about
> technical music theory.  Hell, they don't even know what syncopation means
> (they think it means double-timing something), so how are they to be
> expected to know what an arrastre means in the musical world?
> >
> (a) I and plenty of others do not belong to this stereotype.

     I see no proof of that in my travels.  Sure, plenty of people
hear the arrastre in the music on a gut level and react to it while
dancing, but that's a bit different from what you're claiming.

> (b) I've had debates with 'classically trained musicians' over syncopation
> and other terms. The terms are only technical (and fixed in their
> definitions) up to a point, because there are always multiple ways to
> describe musical phenomena. Moreover, rhythm is rhythm, and belongs as much
> to poetry and dance as to "music proper." Musicians do occasionally bristle
> at the notion, but that's what makes it spicy to converse with them.

     The average musician has more rhythm in his little finger than
the average dancer.  Sorry.  Most dancers (and note that I am talking
about dance-major types, ballet, modern, etc., and not good seasoned
milongueros who understand that tango is the music and the dance
movement is only icing on the cake) are far more concerned with beauty
of movement than rhythm.

> (c) Not even /musicians/ need to know "technical music theory"-- unless

     True but rather beside the point.

> I've not seen the person who failed to get this lesson. I've seen many,
> however, who have failed to /retain/ it, and they struggle. Shall I call
> teachers qualified who turn ease into difficulty? Who teach "musicality" and
> "technique" without touching on /the major and most identifiable/
> characteristic of the music, which is common to all three sub-genres we
> dance to?

    Well I think you already know my opinion on most so-called
"musicality" classes, so I'm certainly with you on this.

> That's why I've spent the last 12 months redoing my music collection to avoid mp3s.

     That sounds very interesting, I'd love to hear more about it offline.

> I even spent several days and $100 obtaining a dumb little C/G Anglo
> concertina, just to show people how the sounds are made. (A bandoneon is an
> overgrown Anglo = diatonic concertina.) I give at least that much of a
> quantifiable damn.

     If there's one thing you've proven since showing up here, Jake,
it's that you give a very quantifiable damn.  In a world where so many
don't, I'd say it's one of your most endearing qualities.  :-)

> If reading this awakens that "critical feeling" in you, great: be critical.
> Just make sure you know whether you're critical of me, or yourself, or
> someone else entirely.

     My criticism was that you would reject a teacher out of hand just
because he or she couldn't cough up the musical definition of an
arrastre, and I think my criticism is justified.  You yourself admit
that you've had many dance partners who feel the arrastre intuitively
in their dance without having any formal knowledge of it.  On the
other hand, I think the way that you are emphasizing the arrastre in
your teaching is great.

> p.s. A further challenge (since that is what this has become):
>  You teachers who count, thus teaching people to dance to the /dots on
> paper/ rather than the sounds as played...

     Which teachers are those?  Most tango teachers can't read music
in the first place.

> do you count /in English/?

     Oh deer lowered.  What difference does it make which language you
count in?  I can't wait to hear the theory behind this one!
Actually, I do suppose it would be cool to count in Russian, with the
accent on their one coming on the second syllable (ah-DEEN).  Wow,
that might actually help with the arrastre, wouldn't it!  Plus their 4
(cheh-TEER-ruy).  Except they'd be better off trading 4 with 3 (ie.
pretending the word for "three" was "cheh-TEER-ruy"):

     ah-
     DEEN!  (dva) cheh-TEER-ruy
     deen!  (dva) cheh-TEE  ah-
     DEEN!  (dva) cheh-TEER-ruy
     deen!  (dva) cheh-TEE

Huck

From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Mon May  5 14:17:56 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:17:56 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Getting educated (restated and expanded)
Message-ID: <20080505181337.22761235324@p3fed1.frb.org>

Jake Spatz wrote:
>>What, in the first place, does the drive-to-excel have to do with 
/pleasure/?<<

My previous comments confused to some degree the pursuit of pleasure with 
the pursuit of excellence.  Let me try to clarify.

I think it's fair to assume that most people attend milongas to enjoy 
dancing with others--not a drive to excel

Some people may attend milongas to show off their dancing skills to feed 
their ego or to advertise themselves as teachers.   For these people, 
showing their superiority may be more important than enjoying dancing with 
any particular partner.

Let's start with the proposition that we looking at the people who attend 
milongas for pleasure to enjoy dancing with others.  The enjoyability of 
dancing with someone might be regarded as a function of the skills of both 
partners:

E = f(B,L)

where E represents enjoyment, B represents the skills of the better dancer 
and L represents the skills of the lesser dancer.  One specific functional 
form might be:

lnE = lnA + w lnL + (1-w) ln B

where w is A is a constant, and w is a weight (1 > w > 0).  As shown in 
this function, Increasing one's own skills increases enjoyment but at a 
decreasing rate.  Balanced growth in the skills of the two individuals 
allows for the greatest increse in enjoyment.  Furthermore, based on some 
of the comments on Tango-L, there seems to be a perception that the weight 
that many dancers give to the skills of the lesser dancer increases with 
experience, practice and own's skills.  Other things being equal, a 
relatively inexperienced dancer seems to enjoy dancing with a more skilled 
dancer than the skilled dancer seems to enjoy dancing with an 
inexperienced dancer.

Suppose our person starts working to develop skills, total enjoyment from 
tango becomes

TE = n avgE - g(D)

where TE represents total enjoyment from tango, n represents the number of 
tandas, avgE represents the average level of enjoyment from dancing given 
one's own skills and those of the dance partners in the community, and D 
is the individual development cost.

The typical individual quits developing skills when they find that the 
additional enjoyment from having better skills is exactly offset by the 
cost of doing so.  Moreover, the return to developing skills increases as 
the quality of one's potential partners increases--which encourages the 
individual to further develop skills.  A person with lower development 
costs may pursue the development of skills further but still reaches a 
point where the additional cost of development outweighs the gains.

Let's look at some group dynamics, as suggested by Jeff Gaynor's comments:
In established communities dominated by mediocrity, a number of 
individuals seemingly have stopped their development at a relatively low 
level.  Maybe these communities suffer from high development costs.  Maybe 
they are mired at a low equilibrium created by group dynamics--and the 
view that everyone dances with everyone.   Remember each rational 
individual thinking of their own enjoyment from dancing stops developing 
skills when additional enjoyment from developing those skills just offsets 
the additional cost.  Each person acting individually bears their own 
development costs but only gains a portion of the improved dance 
experience.  Some of the benefits are distributed to their partners.  If 
self-interest dominates, individuals will not pursue the development of 
tango skills to the point the community would like.  Consequently, each 
member of the community would like everyone in the community to develop a 
higher level of skills, but no one individual acting alone has an 
incentive to do so.

What happens if an individual chooses to work on development with a 
partner?  The development costs may be reduced somewhat, but the enjoyment 
in dancing at milongas may not be improved enough to encourage a 
substantial increse in skills because the effects of both developing 
skills are diluted when they dance with others.  For the individual, total 
enjoyment from tango becomes

TE = m highE + (n-m) avgE - g(D)

where m represents the number of tandas with one's partner, and highE 
represents the more enjoyable dance experiences with one's partner.

As m increases to n, the returns to development with a partner are 
increased, but social acceptability tends to push m down toward 1, as 
people revile the couple for not contributing to the community when they 
dance with each other rather than everyone in the community.  No one cares 
if the inferior dancers keep to themselves.  It's only better dancers 
keeping to themselves that people don't like.

The idea of a forming a larger practice group is that it could further 
reduce development costs and at the same time push the ratio of m to n 
upward.  An increase in the number of better dancers in a community may 
also stimulate others to develop their skills because the return to doing 
so increaes.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 14:43:33 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:43:33 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Excellence
Message-ID: <BLU119-W28E5BD7BDC553A2DF6655A91D70@phx.gbl>


Jake wrote:
>> Now, to talk some plain sense: What, in the first place, does the 
>>  drive-to-excel have to do with /pleasure/?

There are those in the world who think that relaxing with friends over a couple of beers is the greatest of pleasures, and there are those who think that sitting down with the latest issue of a physics journal is the greatest of pleasures.  

And there are many, myself included, in this world who derive a great deal of pleasure from excelling.

I guess that I miss the point of the question.

Cheers
D. David Thorn
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From auclairdy at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 17:01:00 2008
From: auclairdy at hotmail.com (Dyane Auclair)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 06:31:00 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies leading
Message-ID: <BLU145-W202D261AA872C47209F6A3B3D70@phx.gbl>


I have been dancing AT as a follower for about 3 years but I started to learn leading only recently for two main reasons: 1) I want to explore musicality at a different level2) I want to experience the intellectual and physical challenge that leading represents in order to understand better the leader role and become a better followerThe other reasons are "unfortunate reasons" due to:1) often not enough intermediate/advanced male leaders enrolling in classes or in workshops 2) difficulty finding a male leader for regular practice
3) gender imbalance at milonga (usually too many followers)Dyane PS: It was easier to find a "male-follower" (an experienced leader) than a "female-follower" willing to re-enroll with me (as leader) in a basic beginner class. I find dancing with a "man-follower" to be a fun, rewarding experience.
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From larrynla at juno.com  Mon May  5 22:16:22 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 02:16:22 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime
Message-ID: <20080505.191622.25109.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

One of the biggest offenses commited at milongas is what might be called "the show-tango crime."  It is when a couple do movements during a dance which might have been taken unchanged from a show.  The crime does one or more of four things.

- It takes up space normally used by several couples.
- It blocks la pista, the flow, which anglos unpoetically call the line of dance.
- It races ahead of the flow, endangering others with rear-end collisions.
- It spins like a buzz-saw, endangering others with karate kicks.

Professional tango dancers almost never commit this crime, unless they are new to dancing tango socially.  And they don't do it for long.  At milongas, at least in Buenos Aires, the milonga organizer or some crusty milonguero or milonguera will quickly set them straight.

Or another tango professional.  Pros do not want their privileges endangered.  Normally they are met at the milonga door with smiles and hugs, their fees waived, their food and drinks made free, and given their favored tables.  Organizers know these people serve tango directly and them indirectly.  Or sometimes directly.  If the pros reserve a table the word often will quickly get around and fans may plump up the crowd that night.

Often pro tango dancers will not dance.  They are athletes who spend hours and days each week practicing.  They may be tired of tango, or just tired.  If they've come from a show they may need to let their adrenaline recover.  They may need the company of friends, or to make deals or overtures to deals.

If they dance, likely they will do one of two things.  They may do little more than walk.  Nothing fancy, unless you watch closely and have enough dance sophistication to perceive that they are stepping precisely on (or off) the beat.  Their motions are perfectly controlled, not the control of machines but of easy and unconscious mastery so that dancing is like breathing.  They are perfectly in tune with each other and the music.

Or they may do some very fancy moves but adapted to the flow.  And this shows the true nature of the show-tango crime.  It is not WHAT movements are done that makes them right or wrong.  It is HOW they are done.  The crime is the failure to transform them from tango espectaculo to tango intimo.

One example is lifts.  They can be safely done several ways.  For instance, you position your lady to your right so that you walk side by side, she alongside the edge of the floor.  You bend your knees a few inches, hug her more tightly to you, and stand straight.  She keeps her inside leg straight, just a couple of inches off the floor, and lifts her outside leg a few inches so that her knee projects forward and her heel backward, but by just a few inches.  You keep walking, maybe turning a complete circle while you do it, then let her down gently and recover her to in front of you.

Lifts can also be done which seat a woman on her partner's bended knee or even his hip.  Normally this should be done at the end of a dance because it blocks the flow, but if the floor isn't crowded it can be done in the middle of a dance, the sit held for a few seconds, the woman dismounted, and the flow continued.  On the uncrowded floor she might safely do a high kick on the way down.

What can we do about show-tango crimes?  Maybe nothing.  Direct criticism would likely be met by hurt and anger and defiance and push them to become "hardened criminals."  Example could help, if you are good enough to pull off elegantly tamed show-tango moves.  Workshops and practicas with names like "Show tango at the milonga" or "Stage tango on the dance floor" might also help, as pointed reminders to "criminals" and as a way of heading off potential desperadoes.  Another way would be to ask one of these couples for help adapting what they do to tight spaces.  In teaching you they would have to re-think what they were doing.  They might even become examples themselves.

Larry de Los Angeles

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From nina at earthnet.net  Mon May  5 22:38:13 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:38:13 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime
In-Reply-To: <20080505.191622.25109.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080505.191622.25109.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080505202810.01b83cf0@earthnet.net>

How about producing a show called "Tango Crimes" and showing it 
everywhere (sort of like in "Hamlet")?  But make sure that you search 
your audience for daggers and poison, because there is no ridicule 
greater than seeing oneself reflected on stage.

But that would be too cruel.  They don't deserve it.  They don't know 
how stupid they look.  So what is a better way to show it in a gentle 
way that brings results?

Nina


>What can we do about show-tango crimes?  Maybe nothing.  Direct 
>criticism would likely be met by hurt and anger and defiance and 
>push them to become "hardened criminals."  Example could help, if 
>you are good enough to pull off elegantly tamed show-tango 
>moves.  Workshops and practicas with names like "Show tango at the 
>milonga" or "Stage tango on the dance floor" might also help, as 
>pointed reminders to "criminals" and as a way of heading off 
>potential desperadoes.  Another way would be to ask one of these 
>couples for help adapting what they do to tight spaces.  In teaching 
>you they would have to re-think what they were doing.  They might 
>even become examples themselves.
>
>Larry de Los Angeles
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Hotel pics, info and virtual tours.  Click here to book a hotel online.
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiflKGrksKdhp4Gl6hjCOEpVEaENoaXEc2GrAkKBMEmi5LxMu/?count=1234567890
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 23:18:53 2008
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:18:53 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080505202810.01b83cf0@earthnet.net>
References: <20080505.191622.25109.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080505202810.01b83cf0@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <BAY144-W534A51745C655CAD94461A99D60@phx.gbl>

tango crimes has been done MASTERFULLY already
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxs_jRRnOl0
 
but wait, are you still laughing, because he shows ALL of the laughable tango types not just the ones that you don't like. if you all don't see your type in this, then it is time to watch a video of yourselves.
The TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
_________________________________________________________________
Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1.
http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner

From nina at earthnet.net  Mon May  5 23:47:03 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 21:47:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime
In-Reply-To: <BAY144-W534A51745C655CAD94461A99D60@phx.gbl>
References: <20080505.191622.25109.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080505202810.01b83cf0@earthnet.net>
	<BAY144-W534A51745C655CAD94461A99D60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080505214132.01b51e18@earthnet.net>

All tango can be laughable.  At times, if you just stare at the dance 
floor even of the best milongas, it feels like a Fellini movie.

If you accept that tango can be laughable and ridiculous, and then 
see enough videos of yourself, any show will be quite entertaining 
because you already laughted at yourself and everything that you do.

The problem with the dancers that Larry refers to is that they have 
no awarenessof themselves, that they probably do not know what they 
look like or what they do looks like.  That also means that if they 
see the show, they might not recognize themselves.  Wicked problem!

Nina


At 09:18 PM 5/5/2008, meaning of life wrote:
>tango crimes has been done MASTERFULLY already
>
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxs_jRRnOl0>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxs_jRRnOl0
>
>but wait, are you still laughing, because he shows ALL of the 
>laughable tango types not just the ones that you don't like. if you 
>all don't see your type in this, then it is time to watch a video of 
>yourselves.
>
>
>The Tangonista
>Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
>NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
>
>
>----------
>Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista 
>Service Pack 1. 
><http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner>Learn more.


From desdelasnubes at web.de  Tue May  6 06:00:50 2008
From: desdelasnubes at web.de (desdelasnubes@web.de)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 12:00:50 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies leading
Message-ID: <608553828@web.de>


Some leading ladies give proof that the world is more complex than simplistic minds adhering to x-y-chromosom- theory might suggest ;)

Are there some ladies that lead better than some men do - YES! There are a lucky few that can lead better than a vaste majority of men. 

As a follower I do not feel any ambition to lead on the dance floor, but I have danced with many male and female leaders over the years. The very best leaders I have danced with were males.  
Most of the women leaders that I have danced with lacked of a decisiveness, but they tend to be highly sensitive to the music and the follower. Their leading is a lighter one which encourages the follower to be even more sensitive to the lead (but it's no fun if the lead gets so light you can't feel it at all), female lead is not rude (rudeness seems to be reserved to some y-chromosom-owners) but often female leading might be called careless. Careless because they do not care about the embrace or the dance but  just lead to show to the people watching what they can do to be invited by a male leader for the next tanda, or because they consider it a waste of sitting and watching. 
I think gender imbalance or impatience to sit and watch is no good reason for females to learn to lead. 
Stay away from leading if you don't feel comfortable in the embrace or you have no patience sitting and watching other people dance.  If you learn to lead to be a teacher, you know that milongas are not a place to exercise teaching skills. 
But if you feel like exploring the other side of the dance and you have the navigation skills and decisiveness plus you enjoy interpreting the music and you feel comfortable embracing a woman, go for it ;)

Anna 




> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: "Dyane Auclair" <auclairdy at hotmail.com>
> Gesendet: 05.05.08 23:08:44
> An: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Ladies leading


> 
> I have been dancing AT as a follower for about 3 years but I started to learn leading only recently for two main reasons: 1) I want to explore musicality at a different level2) I want to experience the intellectual and physical challenge that leading represents in order to understand better the leader role and become a better followerThe other reasons are "unfortunate reasons" due to:1) often not enough intermediate/advanced male leaders enrolling in classes or in workshops 2) difficulty finding a male leader for regular practice
> 3) gender imbalance at milonga (usually too many followers)Dyane PS: It was easier to find a "male-follower" (an experienced leader) than a "female-follower" willing to re-enroll with me (as leader) in a basic beginner class. I find dancing with a "man-follower" to be a fun, rewarding experience.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click here
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30290&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Search_OCT07&_m=EXT
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From devaldivia at gmail.com  Tue May  6 10:30:21 2008
From: devaldivia at gmail.com (Bryan De Valdivia)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:30:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Research
Message-ID: <ee62b11a0805060730j2620f28eg35272bc5b0c625b3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

My name is Bryan and after the generous and cooperative experience of
Stone Soup this past weekend I'd like to open up a project I've been
working on.

I've been experimenting with wireless pressure sensors that record and
transmit real time data on where/how much pressure is applied to the
floor via the human foot while standing, embracing, walking, and
dancing tango.  I'm out in to boonies so up until now I've only been
able to experiment with beginners, but will be able to work with
int/adv dancers this July-October.

My question is this:
If you could know where your/your partner's/your student's weight is
located at any point in the dance- what would you want to know, why,
and how would you use it?

I have several strains of research that I'm pursuing ( I mean this
loosely, I'm a tango teacher and have sports experience, but I'm not a
Kinesiologist), but as I don't have unlimited time to pursue
everything I thought I'd ask and see what other ideas people have and
get better work done.
In exchange for your experimental questions/designs- I'd be more than
happy to share results.

If interested, please shoot me an email.  No offense, but I tend to
stay away from Tango-L because of the drama :)

thanks,
b.

From windycitytango at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 11:13:56 2008
From: windycitytango at yahoo.com (PJ Grant)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 08:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Ladies leading
Message-ID: <684931.72844.qm@web33503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think Anna says this very well! I have been fortunate to have danced with some excellent female leaders.

 ----- Forwarded Message ----

From: "desdelasnubes at web.de" <desdelasnubes at web.de>
To: Dyane Auclair <auclairdy at hotmail.com>; tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 5:00:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Ladies leading


Some leading ladies give proof that the world is more complex than simplistic minds adhering to x-y-chromosom- theory might suggest ;)

Are there some ladies that lead better than some men do - YES! There are a lucky few that can lead better than a vaste majority of men. 

As a follower I do not feel any ambition to lead on the dance floor, but I have danced with many male and female leaders over the years. The very best leaders I have danced with were males.  
Most of the women leaders that I have danced with lacked of a decisiveness, but they tend to be highly sensitive to the music and the follower. Their leading is a lighter one which encourages the follower to be even more sensitive to the lead (but it's no fun if the lead gets so light you can't feel it at all), female lead is not rude (rudeness seems to be reserved to some y-chromosom-owners) but often female leading might be called careless. Careless because they do not care about the embrace or the dance but  just lead to show to the people watching what they can do to be invited by a male leader for the next tanda, or because they consider it a waste of sitting and watching. 
I think gender imbalance or impatience to sit and watch is no good reason for females to learn to lead. 
Stay away from leading if you don't feel comfortable in the embrace or you have no patience sitting and watching other people dance.  If you learn to lead to be a teacher, you know that milongas are not a place to exercise teaching skills. 
But if you feel like exploring the other side of the dance and you have the navigation skills and decisiveness plus you enjoy interpreting the music and you feel comfortable embracing a woman, go for it ;)

Anna 




> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: "Dyane Auclair" <auclairdy at hotmail.com>
> Gesendet: 05.05.08 23:08:44
> An: <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Ladies leading


> 
> I have been dancing AT as a follower for about 3 years but I started to learn leading only recently for two main reasons: 1) I want to explore musicality at a different level2) I want to experience the intellectual and physical challenge that leading represents in order to understand better the leader role and become a better followerThe other reasons are "unfortunate reasons" due to:1) often not enough intermediate/advanced male leaders enrolling in classes or in workshops 2) difficulty finding a male leader for regular practice
> 3) gender imbalance at milonga (usually too many followers)Dyane PS: It was easier to find a "male-follower" (an experienced leader) than a "female-follower" willing to re-enroll with me (as leader) in a basic beginner class. I find dancing with a "man-follower" to be a fun, rewarding experience.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click here
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30290&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Search_OCT07&_m=EXT
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> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


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From keith at tangohk.com  Sun May  4 12:17:29 2008
From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:17:29 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <49981.1209917849@tangohk.com>

Tango is a dance between a man and a woman and I've never seen a woman 
who could dance very good Tango in the man's role. I'm not saying they don't 
exist, just that I've never seen one. I've been to La Marshall twice, and I've 
seen men who could play the woman's role but never the other way around. 

Can anyone provide a link to a YouTube video showing a woman dancing the 
man's role as well as an intermediate/advanced man?

Keith, HK


 On Sun May  4 23:11 , "Chris, UK"  sent:

>
>I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda 
>disruptors.
>



From nina at earthnet.net  Tue May  6 16:20:03 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 14:20:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <49981.1209917849@tangohk.com>
References: <49981.1209917849@tangohk.com>
Message-ID: <20080506142003.lld100wnusoc40kc@webmail.earthnet.net>

Keith,

I want to take it just a bit further.

The man-woman thing in tango is pretty precious.  Where else do you  
find it?  In relationships?!  I think not.  In relationships, you have  
to deal with a whole bunch of other stuff - commitments, schedules,  
moods, discussions, negotiations, laundry, and want not. :)  Where  
else can you have the man-woman thing pure?

No place but in tango, of course!  It can be pure romance, with no  
commitment, no obligation, and no further responsibility after a 10  
minute tanda.  Granted, this freedom has a huge price, but still...

So why give up on the man-woman thing?  To some, tango is an  
engineering and architechtural project.  To others, it is an emotional  
playground.  Values, values, values!

Nina

Quoting Keith <keith at tangohk.com>:

> Tango is a dance between a man and a woman and I've never seen a woman
> who could dance very good Tango in the man's role. I'm not saying they don't
> exist, just that I've never seen one. I've been to La Marshall   
> twice, and I've
> seen men who could play the woman's role but never the other way around.
>
> Can anyone provide a link to a YouTube video showing a woman dancing the
> man's role as well as an intermediate/advanced man?
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>  On Sun May  4 23:11 , "Chris, UK"  sent:
>
>>
>> I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda
>> disruptors.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Tue May  6 18:48:49 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 17:48:49 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Communities
Message-ID: <20080506224440.9E459235287@p3fed1.frb.org>

Keith, HK wrote:
>All this talk of trouble in Tango communities makes me realise just how 
lucky
>we've been in Hong Kong.

Because tango dancing itself can feel so magically sublime, I think there 
may be a tendency for us to compare our partners and our community to the 
perfection that we envision could be.  The intrusion of reality into what 
we dream can be disconcerting or transforming.

With best wishes,
Steve (de Tejas)


 

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 19:00:15 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <20080506142003.lld100wnusoc40kc@webmail.earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <376592.81181.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

So if tango is supposed to be about the emotional
connection which can only be felt between partners, can
somebody tell me why people are looking for videos to
measure this quality?

The man-woman thing can also be taken too far in these
discussions.  I mean, that's like saying that every man
wants to sleep with every woman he ever dances with, even
if that's his mother, sister, or daughter.  Somebody want
to ask Copes if he dances sensually with his daughter? 
Ewwww.  C'mon.

Trini de Pittsburgh  


--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net> wrote:

> Keith,
> 
> I want to take it just a bit further.
> 
> The man-woman thing in tango is pretty precious.  Where
> else do you  
> find it?  In relationships?!  I think not.  In
> relationships, you have  
> to deal with a whole bunch of other stuff - commitments,
> schedules,  
> moods, discussions, negotiations, laundry, and want not.
> :)  Where  
> else can you have the man-woman thing pure?
> 
> No place but in tango, of course!  It can be pure
> romance, with no  
> commitment, no obligation, and no further responsibility
> after a 10  
> minute tanda.  Granted, this freedom has a huge price,
> but still...
> 
> So why give up on the man-woman thing?  To some, tango is
> an  
> engineering and architechtural project.  To others, it is
> an emotional  
> playground.  Values, values, values!
> 
> Nina
> 
> Quoting Keith <keith at tangohk.com>:
> 
> > Tango is a dance between a man and a woman and I've
> never seen a woman
> > who could dance very good Tango in the man's role. I'm
> not saying they don't
> > exist, just that I've never seen one. I've been to La
> Marshall   
> > twice, and I've
> > seen men who could play the woman's role but never the
> other way around.
> >
> > Can anyone provide a link to a YouTube video showing a
> woman dancing the
> > man's role as well as an intermediate/advanced man?
> >
> > Keith, HK
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 19:37:49 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:37:49 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Building communities
Message-ID: <BLU120-W4420DB693F3E8373279D15A9D60@phx.gbl>



     We here in Portland have always felt blessed to have such a congenial tango community. Even though it has now grown so much that we do sometimes have conflicts, that is, more than one event on the same night, I've never seen anything contentious, and everyone remains friends.
     So why have we been so lucky? I think one reason is the luck of geography. Everything is clustered in the SE area, where there's no more than 10 minutes drive between any two venues.
     Another IMO is the website that Bill Alsup created more than 10 years ago, that has ALL events, and ALL instructors listed equally.
     But a third and maybe more profound reason was the spirit and philsosophy of Clay Nelson, who founded the Portland tango community. At the time he was a ballroom dance instructor. He discovered tango and loved it and started bringing master maestros to Portland to teach, partly because he wanted to learn more himself. That practice grew into what are now arguably the largest tango festivals in the US, February's ValenTango and the TangoFest in October.
     Clay's philosophy on "building a successful tango community" is now captured on his webpage at:
          http://www.claysdancestudio.com/building_community.shtml

     Among other things, there you'll find such gems as:
          "Ignore the dissonance and encourage the harmony."
          [regarding different styles of teaching and dancing...] "Make room for everyone."
          "Accept and even encourage others who want to teach and/or become organizers and promoters."
          "Accept splinter groups and ?clicks? that naturally form."
          "Include flyers and announcements from all groups at all events."

     As well as the more controversial:
          "Who should teach? ... Everyone!... Tango is a folk dance and should be shared and taught by everyone."


          J
     TangoMoments.com

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From nina at earthnet.net  Tue May  6 19:35:20 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 17:35:20 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <376592.81181.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20080506142003.lld100wnusoc40kc@webmail.earthnet.net>
	<376592.81181.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080506173045.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>

At 05:00 PM 5/6/2008, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>So if tango is supposed to be about the emotional
>connection which can only be felt between partners, can
>somebody tell me why people are looking for videos to
>measure this quality?

Boredom?  Engineering inclinations?  Solving mechanical problems? 
Fantasy of an artistic life?  Who knows?!


>The man-woman thing can also be taken too far in these
>discussions.  I mean, that's like saying that every man
>wants to sleep with every woman he ever dances with, even
>if that's his mother, sister, or daughter.  Somebody want
>to ask Copes if he dances sensually with his daughter?
>Ewwww.  C'mon.


Yeah, this thing with parent-child tango is really warped.  We don't 
know how either one of them feels about it.  This is a professional 
relationship and it has its benefits.  To iterpret man-woman thing in 
social tango as if it was about sex is somewhat primitive, IMNSHO.

Trini, it is much, much more.:)

Nina 


From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 20:43:21 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <874479.33207.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I danced tango with my daughter a couple of years ago when I was 56 and she was 32 ( we live far apart and do not have a chance to dance together more frequently) and it was extremely emotional and beautiful for both of us. In many ways, it was even more beautiful than dancing with someone else because of that added dimension.

The other day, during a practice, I danced as a follower with a male friend of mine. And that dance had its beautiful moments for me too. So, I suppose the bottom line for me is that tango dance is about beauty and ways to discover, create, and share beauty.

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

From larrynla at juno.com  Wed May  7 02:32:32 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 06:32:32 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Cautions About Lifts
Message-ID: <20080506.233232.27626.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>

In the show-tango "crime" post I described one lift (the first) in almost enough detail for tango dancers to do it.  I left out one detail that I may have wrongly assumed everyone would know.

"Lift" is a misnomer.  A lift is actually a LEAP followed by a lift.  A follower isn't just a heavy weight to heave around.  She is an active partner.  Unless you are quite strong and she light, you ain't getting her off the ground without her help.

This is the full sequence for a lift from the leader's viewpoint.

Prepare for the lift, REQUEST A LEAP, aid ("lift") the leaping follower into the rest position, settle your partner into position, do added actions, request a dismount, aid the dismount to settle in the right spot, follow-up.

Unless you know your partner has a lot of dance experience and is moving well that night, don't try a lift.  Work on it in a practica with your usual partners before you do it at a milonga.

You can guage your partner's (and your own) readiness for a lift by doing the preparation and the follow-up, but leaving out the middle ("lift") part.

You can also work up to lifts by doing leans first.  They involve a lot of the same skills, and they prepare your partner mentally for doing more than walking movements.

Lifts are certifiably "showy" but don't have to inconvenience anyone if done right and practiced till they feel natural.

Larry de Los Angeles

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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 02:46:12 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <874479.33207.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <532358.45686.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

 So, I suppose the bottom
> line for me is that tango dance is about beauty and ways
> to discover, create, and share beauty.

That's a nice way of looking at it.  Aside from dancing
with my husband, the tandas I look forward to the most are
the ones with my dance partner whenever she returns to
town.  She's like a daughter to me, but she's lived away
for the last two years.  During her visits, we always make
a point of dancing with each other.  For her, her visits
are not complete until we've danced a "real dance".  And
for me, something is amiss until we've reconnected through
tango.  We dance to my favorite music by DiSarli, which she
also enjoys.  And I know that our dances together have just
as much meaning for her, too.  It's a celebration of  a
deep friendship.

Trini de Pittsburgh





PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



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From keith at tangohk.com  Wed May  7 00:15:34 2008
From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 00:15:34 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Message-ID: <49908.1210133734@tangohk.com>

Nina,

I completely agree and it's why I always use the terms 'man's role' 
and lady's role', rather than leader and follower. I'm sure there 
can be no logical reason why a lady can't lead just as well as a 
man, but there are plenty of reasons why a lady can't effectively 
take the man's role. And the main one is .... she's not a man! :-). 

For me, the greatest pleasure in Tango is embracing the lady and 
she embracing me. Take that away and I'd might as well just stick 
to Ballroom. 

Btw, I know plenty of ladies who can do an excellent job dancing as 
lead in Ballroom. In fact, it's so popular that it's often a separate event 
in competitions. In Ballroom, feelings don't get in the way :-).

Keith, HK


 On Wed May  7  4:20 , Nina Pesochinsky  sent:

>The man-woman thing in tango is pretty precious.  Where else do you  
>find it?  >
>No place but in tango, of course!  It can be pure romance, with no  
>commitment, no obligation, and no further responsibility >
>So why give up on the man-woman thing?  >
>Nina
>



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed May  7 10:03:37 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:03:37 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango
Message-ID: <13176a380805070703j552d9e97kb960010626abe815@mail.gmail.com>

I looked at Mario's link to youtube of Sylvania dancing milonga with another
woman. At about the 55 seconds mark, I saw a particularly good combination.
She stepped foward on her left, side right, close left to right, and come
out on the right. (There must be q quick weight change from the right to the
left.) There was a zig zag quality to the movement. And then, all of a
sudden, it hit me like lightning. It looked just like botta fogoes in Samba,
excluding the different rhythm.

Since I also dance ballroom, I'm going to examine if there is footwork and
rhythm (not figures) from other ballroom dances I can incorporate into
tango, vals, or milonga.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
It seems Spring has arrived.--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

From donnay at donnay.net  Wed May  7 01:07:36 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:07:36 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <874479.33207.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <874479.33207.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <80F0F8F6E8C742478CD4EF8755F9C5A6@gatewaylaptop>

I've never danced with Dubravko, but I've got a feeling I would love it.

Loisa
Minneapolis (looking forward to dancing with you if you're coming to Heartland Tango 
Festival this weekend!)



>I danced tango with my daughter a couple of years ago when I was 56 and she was 32 ( we 
>live far apart and do not have a chance to dance together more frequently) and it was 
>extremely emotional and beautiful for both of us. In many ways, it was even more beautiful 
>than dancing with someone else because of that added dimension.
>
> The other day, during a practice, I danced as a follower with a male friend of mine. And 
> that dance had its beautiful moments for me too. So, I suppose the bottom line for me is 
> that tango dance is about beauty and ways to discover, create, and share beauty.


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Wed May  7 11:14:55 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:14:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Research
In-Reply-To: <ee62b11a0805060730j2620f28eg35272bc5b0c625b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee62b11a0805060730j2620f28eg35272bc5b0c625b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380805070814u70b814fcy74f60cd1fcff74f9@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/6/08, Bryan De Valdivia <devaldivia at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My question is this:
> If you could know where your/your partner's/your student's weight is
> located at any point in the dance- what would you want to know, why,
> and how would you use it?
>
> b.


   Bryan:
I need to know which foot is free (has no weight on it). For example, some
women go into the cross but DON"T put weight on the left foot. I need to
know so I don't lead her to step with her right foot, which is the support
foot. I like to forward ochos (I'm moving backwards, but WITH the line of
dance (LOD).  I stop the ochos with my frame. Sometimes, the woman will
continue to pivot and step forward, right into me. I need to know when she
has stopped moving.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Going to the New York All Night Milonga Saturday

>

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 12:28:03 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangolodia
Message-ID: <498585.31367.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Last night, with no Milonga and dying of 'stimuli hunger', 
  I found myself slo tangoing to the song "you make me feeeeeeel like a 
  natuuuuraaalllll Woooomannn"...I felt that I may have been committing
  some sort of sin (I was raised Catholic)...and now I am seeing this:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV3KCTHBhrg

       
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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 18:12:20 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:12:20 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080506173045.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>
References: <20080506142003.lld100wnusoc40kc@webmail.earthnet.net>
	<376592.81181.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> 
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080506173045.01ba6b58@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W174F1BE16AC21DEFB4E7B1A9D10@phx.gbl>


Nina wrote:

> To interpret the man-woman thing in
> social tango as if it was all about sex is somewhat primitive ...
>

I agree. Johanna Siegmann in her delightful book The Tao of Tango

http://www.taooftango.com/

differentiates between male and female sexuality and masuline/yang and feminine/yin Energy. I think it resolves a lot of this issue.

            J
        TangoMoments.com



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From tony at oakebooks.com  Wed May  7 18:19:59 2008
From: tony at oakebooks.com (Tony)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:19:59 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Events and Classes
In-Reply-To: <498585.31367.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <498585.31367.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48222B0F.3080708@oakebooks.com>

Everyone organizing events and classes -

I'm gearing up for issue 2 of Smooth Moves - free, quarterly PDF ezine on dance.

Please get in touch if you'd like your class / event to be listed on the website / in the ezine. I'll be publishing on June 1st, so events from June to the end of September are good for  the next issue.

The first issue can be seen here:
www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php?ezineId=3

All the best,
Tony



-- 
www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php
Martial Arts : Health : Dance


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 18:50:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Ballroom steps in tango
Message-ID: <526316.1930.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"..Sylvania dancing milonga with another
woman. At about the 55 seconds mark, I saw a particularly good combination.
She stepped foward on her left, side right, close left to right, and come
out on the right. (There must be q quick weight change from the right to the
left.) There was a zig zag quality to the movement. And then, all of a
sudden, it hit me like lightning. It looked just like botta fogoes in Samba,
excluding the different rhythm." - Michael Ditkoff
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y
   
  First of all; I absolutely LOVE IT when someone posts a timestamp and
  comment on a dance video...alas, I must be not able to see this one, however.
  It just looked like a right forward step and right turn..darn it there was some 
  quick step as she turned but it was obscured...but thanks and please ..more!


       
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 18:59:10 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Ladies leading
Message-ID: <177785.34256.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I suggest that you read this..no joke, it makes some sense.
   
  http://nyctango.blogspot.com/2008/05/leaders-follow-followers-dont-lead.html

       
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From keith at totango.net  Wed May  7 19:34:52 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:34:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ladies leading
Message-ID: <60424.70.53.233.15.1210203292.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

Following on Mario's link to the blogspot ...

I hadn't mentioned in my post (but have included it on my website) that
the women who lead I was referring to have a lot of experience and are
really good dancers.

This is different from a woman who has been dancing a short while deciding
she would like to lead. Absolutely.

I have in the past tried to delicately hint to such enthusiasts that they
should learn one thing before they embark on learning another.




From tangobliss at gmail.com  Thu May  8 05:04:54 2008
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 02:04:54 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <81C6ECBF-BCC1-430F-815B-66B4D3DDA1AF@gmail.com>

All,

Man did you folks miss a really good time...

Stone Soup was a very very high quality event that went far beyond my  
expectations and I know for fact amoung many in the facebook wor that  
they're still missing the experience.

Quality of dance was far above any festival I've been to thus far in  
the last year.  There were ZERO mishaps on the dance floor, and the  
line of dance was so well respected I didn't have to manage it other  
than to think of it in passing. There were soooo many amazing dancers  
from all across the tango universe, you couldn't spit (not like you'd  
want to) without hitting one.

The Seminars and Cell experiences were all top notch.  All given by  
very experience dancers, and excellent speakers all.

Classes before the Milongas, great intermediate level topics.  Good  
foundation stuff.  Loved it.

And then there was the FOOD!  This was food made with love by all of  
the participants in one way, shape or form or another.  Many hands  
made lite work and that was very true from the quality and quantity of  
food (real food, not 'snacks'), salads that were made, whole dishes  
that were brought over...it was POT LUCK without the need for the luck.

Lastly, URBAN CAMPING...you folks should try this.  Note to festival  
organizers, when setting up 'housing' for outta town folks, try to  
rent a huge space with a shower, kitchen and have them sleep on their  
own air mattresses or bedding.  Pretty simple and effective.  It also  
has the added benefit of making ppl bond who would have otherwise not  
have a chance to hang out with each other.

There was a sense of community spirit in that room for 4 days....and I  
wouldn't trade it for all the tea in china.

For those of you who want to see for yourselves...

FLICKR.COM ->  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/collections/72157604915109460/
YOUTUBE.COM -> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D5F82A90A0A80AFF

I had a wonderful time, and can't wait for next year.

Sincerely,

Miles.

From tangospring at gmail.com  Thu May  8 12:37:18 2008
From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:37:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <e5c6fa070805080937w23717d23ma6f88642394d64fb@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Miles's opinion.

I highly recommend this festival to anyone young in spirit looking for some
playful tango dancing, as well as some fun and games in between.

Being old in spirit, I have not attended day-time festivities/cooking/shared
meals, and classes; but Miles's pictures look good. Well done Korey.

Here couple more videos (being partial to social dancing, I took video of
milonga):
Saturday night milonga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmvlGUKRqiQ
Flash mob tango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct9TyOGtmtE

-- 
Oleh Kovalchuke
Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm
http://tangospring.com

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu May  8 14:42:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <81C6ECBF-BCC1-430F-815B-66B4D3DDA1AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080508194243.3536P@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Classes before the Milongas

At a /festival/?? Crikey.

Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?

--
Chris

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Thu May  8 14:48:57 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <81C6ECBF-BCC1-430F-815B-66B4D3DDA1AF@gmail.com>
References: <81C6ECBF-BCC1-430F-815B-66B4D3DDA1AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48234B19.6050004@comcast.net>

All,

I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
things about Argentine Tango in the US and this apparently 
overwhelmingly popular and positive event.

There was an appalling lack of negativity about this topic, and I see 
that the tone of the list is now being restored.

m i l e s wrote:
> All,
> 
> Man did you folks miss a really good time...
> 
> Stone Soup was a very very high quality event that went far beyond my  
> expectations and I know for fact amoung many in the facebook wor that  
> they're still missing the experience.
> 
> Quality of dance was far above any festival I've been to thus far in  
> the last year.  There were ZERO mishaps on the dance floor, and the  
> line of dance was so well respected I didn't have to manage it other  
> than to think of it in passing. There were soooo many amazing dancers  
> from all across the tango universe, you couldn't spit (not like you'd  
> want to) without hitting one.
> 
> The Seminars and Cell experiences were all top notch.  All given by  
> very experience dancers, and excellent speakers all.
> 
> Classes before the Milongas, great intermediate level topics.  Good  
> foundation stuff.  Loved it.
> 
> And then there was the FOOD!  This was food made with love by all of  
> the participants in one way, shape or form or another.  Many hands  
> made lite work and that was very true from the quality and quantity of  
> food (real food, not 'snacks'), salads that were made, whole dishes  
> that were brought over...it was POT LUCK without the need for the luck.
> 
> Lastly, URBAN CAMPING...you folks should try this.  Note to festival  
> organizers, when setting up 'housing' for outta town folks, try to  
> rent a huge space with a shower, kitchen and have them sleep on their  
> own air mattresses or bedding.  Pretty simple and effective.  It also  
> has the added benefit of making ppl bond who would have otherwise not  
> have a chance to hang out with each other.
> 
> There was a sense of community spirit in that room for 4 days....and I  
> wouldn't trade it for all the tea in china.
> 
> For those of you who want to see for yourselves...
> 
> FLICKR.COM ->  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/collections/72157604915109460/
> YOUTUBE.COM -> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D5F82A90A0A80AFF
> 
> I had a wonderful time, and can't wait for next year.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Miles.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz



From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 15:03:34 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080508194243.3536P@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <290924.48764.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical area produces?

Nancy


--- On Thu, 5/8/08, Chris, UK <tl2 at chrisjj.com> wrote:

> From: Chris, UK <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> Cc: tl2 at chrisjj.com
> Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 2:42 PM
> > Classes before the Milongas
> 
> At a /festival/?? Crikey.
> 
> Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?
> 
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


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From tangobliss at gmail.com  Thu May  8 15:19:23 2008
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:19:23 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Facebook Tangos - Stone Soup 08
Message-ID: <F504EB31-615E-4415-9E1C-97D8D9E2C89E@gmail.com>

Hi,

For those of you not in the know, facebook has become a wonderful  
social tool for connecting, and is fast becoming a great way for all  
of your tango friends to hook up.

As it relates to Stone Soup, there's content that I put up that's  
*NOT* in either flickr or youtube...the video quality is better on  
facebook, than youtube.

So I'd recommend that if you're on facebook, that you find your way to  
the stone soup event, and take a look around...there's some good stuff  
there, and of course start adding friends...

Sincerely,

Miles.

From windycitytango at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 15:22:10 2008
From: windycitytango at yahoo.com (PJ Grant)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <113495.18289.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

All I know is that I heard - before Miles' posting - such a glowing report on the 2008 Stone Soup from another Chicago tanguera that it already is on my 2009 calendar. Way to go Korey!

 
Phoebe J. (PJ) Grant of WindyCityTango, Unlimited
312-60TANGO (312-608-2646) cell - text msgs OK
WindyCityTango at yahoo.com (for tango business messages)
TangoLadyChicago at yahoo.com (for immediate communication)
Promoter, Teacher, Performer, Sponsor of Argentine Tango


----- Original Message ----
From: NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com>
To: Tango-L at mit.edu; tl2 at chrisjj.com
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 2:03:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up

Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical area produces?

Nancy


--- On Thu, 5/8/08, Chris, UK <tl2 at chrisjj.com> wrote:

> From: Chris, UK <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> Cc: tl2 at chrisjj.com
> Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 2:42 PM
> > Classes before the Milongas
> 
> At a /festival/?? Crikey.
> 
> Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?
> 
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


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From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu May  8 15:26:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <48234B19.6050004@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <memo.20080508202607.3536S@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> > Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?

> Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical
> area produces?

If you don't like BA-style tango, then there are easier ways to avoid it.

> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
> things about Argentine Tango in the US

Can we take that to mean at least one US person agrees class obsession is 
negative? ;)
 
> and this apparently overwhelmingly popular and positive event.

Overwhelmingly popular with overwhelming class-goers, no doubt. But what 
about regular dancers? Let's hear from some of them, please.

--
Chris

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Thu May  8 15:29:51 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:29:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080508202607.3536S@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080508202607.3536S@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <482354AF.7000904@comcast.net>

Thank you Chris, I feel so much better now, having been insulted by you 
in an ad-hominem attack which has nothing to do with the subject of the 
post.

Regards,

Chris, UK wrote:
>>> Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?
> 
>> Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical
>> area produces?
> 
> If you don't like BA-style tango, then there are easier ways to avoid it.
> 
>> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
>> things about Argentine Tango in the US
> 
> Can we take that to mean at least one US person agrees class obsession is 
> negative? ;)
>  
>> and this apparently overwhelmingly popular and positive event.
> 
> Overwhelmingly popular with overwhelming class-goers, no doubt. But what 
> about regular dancers? Let's hear from some of them, please.
> 
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz



From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu May  8 18:54:35 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:54:35 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango
References: <526316.1930.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003001c8b15e$7e783b30$44203e43@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
Between :55 and :60 after she comes out of the turn and starts going straight, Sylvania throws in the slight zig zag.

Michael Ditkoff
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango


"..Sylvania dancing milonga with another woman. At about the 55 seconds mark, I saw a particularly good combination. She stepped foward on her left, side right, close left to right, and come out on the right. (There must be q quick weight change from the right to the left.) There was a zig zag quality to the movement. And then, all of a
sudden, it hit me like lightning. It looked just like botta fogoes in Samba, excluding the different rhythm."
 - Michael Ditkoff
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y
   
  First of all; I absolutely LOVE IT when someone posts a timestamp and
  comment on a dance video...alas, I must be not able to see this one, however.
  It just looked like a right forward step and right turn..darn it there was some 
  quick step as she turned but it was obscured...but thanks and please ..more!




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 19:03:01 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Ballroom steps in tango
Message-ID: <725073.67218.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks Michael I can see it now.
   Say, isn't that a Traspie?
    If not, what the heck is a Traspie?
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y
   read 55 to 60 secs. in...the time elapsed is read in white
    in the center of the bottom frame of the video
    

       
---------------------------------
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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Thu May  8 19:17:40 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:17:40 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango
References: <725073.67218.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c8b161$b698cb30$44203e43@michaelditkoff>

Mario:
Traspie refers to the rhythm, not the specific steps. Traspie can be done with all forward steps. Sylvania puts in a nice touch with the side step.

Michael Ditkoff
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Next tango festival for me is in New York www.celebratetango.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango


Thanks Michael I can see it now.
   Say, isn't that a Traspie?
    If not, what the heck is a Traspie?
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y
   read 55 to 60 secs. in...the time elapsed is read in white
    in the center of the bottom frame of the video
    



From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 20:35:12 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] crossed footed walk on  follow's left  w cross + sacada
Message-ID: <39854.63247.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I find this a very interesting video by Oscar and Maryann Casas.
  They are pushing the cross and the cross footed walk to the extreme.
   They are forcing crosses and sacadas on the follower's left side.
    By always looking for new stuff to do, this sort of pushing the envelope
     can open new ways of seeing the whole picture..an Ah-Ha! experience 
  becomes   possible.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFragOUIlR8

       
---------------------------------
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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu May  8 23:59:29 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:59:29 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <B9AC7967F42749528B596C98841C507F@homePC>


>> > Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?

Frankly, Chris, the only one I can see here who is obsessed with anything is 
you with your obsession about not taking classes. You keep harping on the 
same subject, over and over again, and I have yet to see a feasible 
explanation of yours on what is bad about taking classes, and a description 
of how you learned to dance without ever taking classes.
I have also yet to meet a dancer who can dance tango without ever having 
learned it from a teacher, just because he was born with "Tango running in 
his blood", and this is the truth, no matter what Argentines will have you 
believe.
>
>> Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical
>> area produces?
>
> If you don't like BA-style tango, then there are easier ways to avoid it.

I think, you have not paid much attention as to who Nancy is.

>> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative
>> things about Argentine Tango in the US
>
> Can we take that to mean at least one US person agrees class obsession is
> negative? ;)

getting your hopes up, eh? At least one in the US and at least one in the 
UK...
>
>> and this apparently overwhelmingly popular and positive event.
>
> Overwhelmingly popular with overwhelming class-goers, no doubt.

as I said, on and on and on. One starts to suspect you have to compensate 
for or justify something, running around with the torch for non-lesson tango 
all the time.

 But what
> about regular dancers?

how do you define the "regular dancer", Chris? I am under the impression, 
you mean those guys who have never learned dance technique or taken a three 
months crash course at some cheap studio and then were off to troll the 
milongas. Berlin has quite a few of those.
At least in BA, the men who could not dance would dance with other men 
before they dared to impose themselves on the women.
(no more, i am afraid)

 Let's hear from some of them, please.

if my impression is based on misunderstanding, I am open to being 
enlightened by you, but otherwise, would you PLEASE change the subject every 
once in a while, Chris, or is that too much to ask?



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri May  9 01:36:00 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 05:36:00 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Ballroom steps in tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W52A095998C4A67CADE2E4A97D30@phx.gbl>




Michael I agree with Mario. These girls never do the step that you described as "Botafogos".

The step described by you as "Botafogos" is a step present both in milonga and in Argentine Vals. It is one of the very few  tango steps that are found in other ballroom dances.

What the girls actually do is:  Leader steps outside partner with right foot, (like #3 of the base),left comes together,
then right opens to the right side, left comes close to right. The sequence re-starts.
This is a typical step of tango and milonga.

In tango when we open right foot to the right side, (in this sequence) we bring the left foot closer to the right one  
than the girls do in their milonga.

Best regards, Sergio


_________________________________________________________________
Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1.
http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner

From bibibwong at hotmail.com  Fri May  9 03:58:06 2008
From: bibibwong at hotmail.com (bibibwong@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:58:06 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L]  Stone Soup 2008
In-Reply-To: <48234B19.6050004@comcast.net>
References: <81C6ECBF-BCC1-430F-815B-66B4D3DDA1AF@gmail.com><48234B19.6050004@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY144-DAV57BB895B242258B684BC5BCD30@phx.gbl>

It reminds me of El Corte's New years eve / day marathon and other special events.  Unforgetably good, better than Bs As.  Hands down.  

I recall Korey frequented that place, looks like he added his special touch to form the stone soup!  
Congrats!




Sent from PDA and may contain errors

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw at comcast.net>

Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:48:57 
To:m i l e s <tangobliss at gmail.com>
Cc:tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up


All,

I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
things about Argentine Tango in the US and this apparently 
overwhelmingly popular and positive event.

There was an appalling lack of negativity about this topic, and I see 
that the tone of the list is now being restored.

m i l e s wrote:
> All,
> 
> Man did you folks miss a really good time...
> 
> Stone Soup was a very very high quality event that went far beyond my  
> expectations and I know for fact amoung many in the facebook wor that  
> they're still missing the experience.
> 
> Quality of dance was far above any festival I've been to thus far in  
> the last year.  There were ZERO mishaps on the dance floor, and the  
> line of dance was so well respected I didn't have to manage it other  
> than to think of it in passing. There were soooo many amazing dancers  
> from all across the tango universe, you couldn't spit (not like you'd  
> want to) without hitting one.
> 
> The Seminars and Cell experiences were all top notch.  All given by  
> very experience dancers, and excellent speakers all.
> 
> Classes before the Milongas, great intermediate level topics.  Good  
> foundation stuff.  Loved it.
> 
> And then there was the FOOD!  This was food made with love by all of  
> the participants in one way, shape or form or another.  Many hands  
> made lite work and that was very true from the quality and quantity of  
> food (real food, not 'snacks'), salads that were made, whole dishes  
> that were brought over...it was POT LUCK without the need for the luck.
> 
> Lastly, URBAN CAMPING...you folks should try this.  Note to festival  
> organizers, when setting up 'housing' for outta town folks, try to  
> rent a huge space with a shower, kitchen and have them sleep on their  
> own air mattresses or bedding.  Pretty simple and effective.  It also  
> has the added benefit of making ppl bond who would have otherwise not  
> have a chance to hang out with each other.
> 
> There was a sense of community spirit in that room for 4 days....and I  
> wouldn't trade it for all the tea in china.
> 
> For those of you who want to see for yourselves...
> 
> FLICKR.COM ->  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/collections/72157604915109460/
> YOUTUBE.COM -> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D5F82A90A0A80AFF
> 
> I had a wonderful time, and can't wait for next year.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Miles.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Fri May  9 07:31:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <B9AC7967F42749528B596C98841C507F@homePC>
Message-ID: <memo.20080509123157.3572F@HIDEchrisjj.com>

Astrid

In the rest of the tango world, the majority of dancers don't do classes. 
They just dance. Whether they started in classes is irrelevant - they 
either didn't, or did and outgrew them.

Cut to USA. This "overwhelmingly popular" festival is packed with 
presentations, seminars, practicas, classes and privates... and one 
milonga per day which Miles' video shows is half empty.

Weird. If the dancing is that unpopular, why are these people spending so 
much time studying for it?

--
Chris

PS Americans visiting Europe might like to consider OsterTango, one of our 
best festivals. Daily there's an afternoon milonga, big evening ball, then 
night milonga until 6/7am. And some classes.







> *Subject:* [Tango-L] Fw:  Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
> *From:* "Astrid" <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp>
> *To:* <tl2 at chrisjj.com>, "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> *Date:* Fri, 9 May 2008 12:59:29 +0900
> 
> >> > Why are you people in the US so obsessed with classes?
> 
> Frankly, Chris, the only one I can see here who is obsessed with 
> anything is you with your obsession about not taking classes. You keep 
> harping on the same subject, over and over again, and I have yet to see 
> a feasible explanation of yours on what is bad about taking classes, 
> and a description of how you learned to dance without ever taking 
> classes.
> I have also yet to meet a dancer who can dance tango without ever 
> having learned it from a teacher, just because he was born with "Tango 
> running in his blood", and this is the truth, no matter what Argentines 
> will have you believe.
> >
> >> Uhm......because we have seen what inbreeding in a small geographical
> >> area produces?
> >
> > If you don't like BA-style tango, then there are easier ways to avoid 
> > it.
> 
> I think, you have not paid much attention as to who Nancy is.
> 
> >> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative
> >> things about Argentine Tango in the US
> >
> > Can we take that to mean at least one US person agrees class 
> > obsession is
> > negative? ;)
> 
> getting your hopes up, eh? At least one in the US and at least one in 
> the UK...
> >
> >> and this apparently overwhelmingly popular and positive event.
> >
> > Overwhelmingly popular with overwhelming class-goers, no doubt.
> 
> as I said, on and on and on. One starts to suspect you have to 
> compensate for or justify something, running around with the torch for 
> non-lesson tango all the time.
> 
>  But what
> > about regular dancers?
> 
> how do you define the "regular dancer", Chris? I am under the 
> impression, you mean those guys who have never learned dance technique 
> or taken a three months crash course at some cheap studio and then were 
> off to troll the milongas. Berlin has quite a few of those.
> At least in BA, the men who could not dance would dance with other men 
> before they dared to impose themselves on the women.
> (no more, i am afraid)
> 
>  Let's hear from some of them, please.
> 
> if my impression is based on misunderstanding, I am open to being 
> enlightened by you, but otherwise, would you PLEASE change the subject 
> every once in a while, Chris, or is that too much to ask?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 10:06:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Oxen who lay in the manger
Message-ID: <710497.18865.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For what it's worth (probably nothing), I want to go on record of being
  100% behind most of what I have read in this forum by class-hating, Chris.
   I am coming from a background of second language teaching where the
   education industry has everyone convinced that they must 'learn from a teacher'.
   I see the results, daily. Need I say more? (I won't because I don't want to get started)
    I see similar B.S. in the Tango 'teaching' industry.. I can understand Chris'sincredulity 
     about swarming into classrooms  before a Milonga....at least, this time, they still continue  to the Milonga instead of choosing the classroom instead of the dance. 
    Read  'DeSchooling America"
      I compare a significent % of 'teachers' to the Biblical reference of "Oxen who lie in 
      the manger". - They neither eat nor allow anyone else to approach and eat.
   

       
---------------------------------
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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri May  9 11:05:43 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:05:43 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Oxen who lay in the manger
In-Reply-To: <710497.18865.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <710497.18865.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7ACDBC1058F44878A1CD5B78381D6A31@homePC>



> For what it's worth (probably nothing), I want to go on record of being
>  100% behind most of what I have read in this forum by class-hating, 
> Chris.
>   I am coming from a background of second language teaching where the
>   education industry has everyone convinced that they must 'learn from a 
> teacher'.
>   I see the results, daily. Need I say more?

Ok, then, Mario, since you have been so utterly successful with your unique 
method of learning tango from youtube only, there must be something to it. I 
trust your ability in teaching and studying foreign languages. Would you 
please send me a few youtube URLs which will teach me Arabic? Might save me 
a lot of time and money wasted on unnessecary classes. I am so glad to know 
there is another way. 


From dchester at charter.net  Fri May  9 11:26:19 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:26:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <20080509112619.LS94K.660864.root@fepweb15>

Chris,

You'll need to post some pictures or video for us to see if it's worth it to make such a trek, especially when there are so many good Tango festivals in the US.

Here's the link to some photos from the last big one I was at, Tango de los Muertos (in the Boston area).  I assure you, it was not half empty. 

http://www.tangodelosmuertos.com/2007/photos/Saturday/index.html

Also, here is a video of the teachers who had the audacity to teach classes at that festival.

http://www.tangodelosmuertos.com/2007/Assets/media/tdlm07/Group%20320_200.mov

My wife and I had a great time at this festival.  So how does OsterTango measure up?


Regards,

David


----------------------------------------------
> Subject: Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
> From:  Chris, UK  tl2 at chrisjj.com
> 
> 
> Astrid
> 
> In the rest of the tango world, the majority of dancers don't do classes. 
> They just dance. Whether they started in classes is irrelevant - they 
> either didn't, or did and outgrew them.
> 
> Cut to USA. This "overwhelmingly popular" festival is packed with 
> presentations, seminars, practicas, classes and privates... and one 
> milonga per day which Miles' video shows is half empty.
> 
> Weird. If the dancing is that unpopular, why are these people spending so 
> much time studying for it?
> 

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 11:38:02 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Oxen who lay in the manger
Message-ID: <51437.63923.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, Astrid you can learn Arabic from the internet, YouTube included. You would, however,
  work with authentic communications not the 'make difficult' crap that a 'teacher' will give you
  to do. 
  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homeimmersion/
   I know that you may find all this difficult to understand but that's the price one pays for 
  having been brain-washed by the 'education' industry.
   

       
---------------------------------
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From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Fri May  9 12:16:27 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:16:27 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
Message-ID: <20080509161200.56E08235DA5@p3fed1.frb.org>

A few thoughts on the many elements in this topic:

The success of an event depends on the perceptions of those who attended 
the event.  Reviewing a weekend long event after viewing a video excerpt 
requires one to draw a considerable inferrence from what is an incomplete 
and likely faulty record.  In this regard, Miles may be doing the Stone 
Soup Festival and many other such events that he has "documented" with 
video snippets a disservice.  One can easily capture a single dance 
performance on a video, but the sweep of an event that plays out over days 
and involves many people is much more elusive.

In looking through the webpages for festivals worldwide, I don't find it 
uniquely American for the festivals to have classes.  The names of the 
teachers are are among the prominent features on most festival webpages. 
Some festivals in the United States specifically emphasize the milongas 
over instruction.  Many U.S. festivals offer milonga-only passes.  In 
addition, at the festivals I've attended, it is the rare person who 
participates in every class period offered during the festival.

There does seem to be a phenomenon of some tango dancers putting more 
effort into attending classes and less effort into practicing or dancing. 
Maybe they prefer learning to doing, the structured interaction with 
others, or the opportunity to dance with the teachers.  To each their own.

Someone watching YouTube videos of tango dancing and then posing questions 
of others about what is on these videos is asking those others to serve as 
his teachers--but without the formality of attending classes or paying for 
the instruction. 

Good teaching facilitates learning.  Bad teaching discourages learning. 
What is good teaching for one person may be bad for another.  Maybe 
sometimes the student learns regardless of the teaching.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri May  9 12:26:39 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:26:39 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw:  Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080509123157.3572F@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <B9AC7967F42749528B596C98841C507F@homePC>
	<memo.20080509123157.3572F@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W39E00329252A0EE777736DA9D30@phx.gbl>

Chris,



In 10 years of dancing I have never seen a milonga at a Portland
festival "half empty." In fact they are often so crowded that
floorcraft is a serious challenge, truly akin to dancing in BsAs, where
the tiniest close-embrace steps are all that you can manage. And except
for the first day, there are always two milongas per day, an
alternative in the afternoon and the evening milonga. And on the last
two days, there are three milongas, the afternoon alternative, the main
evening milonga, and an all-nighter that goes from midnight or so until
6am. ALL the milongas are packed, with 300-500 dancers.



         J

      TangoMoments.com


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From alex at tangofuego.us  Sat May 10 02:29:16 2008
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 02:29:16 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] The Seven Day Milonga
Message-ID: <20080510063240.5B0FBE21070@mit.edu>

Seven days...24 hours a day...168 hours...

Am I crazy to think such a thought?


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat May 10 04:36:38 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 17:36:38 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] The Seven Day Milonga
In-Reply-To: <20080510063240.5B0FBE21070@mit.edu>
References: <20080510063240.5B0FBE21070@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <57D91337AEF840539324ADF693E0C1F5@homePC>

No. Go read "The symptoms of a tango junkie" on the internet.



> Seven days...24 hours a day...168 hours...
> 
> Am I crazy to think such a thought?
> 


From devaldivia at gmail.com  Sat May 10 09:23:45 2008
From: devaldivia at gmail.com (Bryan De Valdivia)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:23:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Research Tools
Message-ID: <ee62b11a0805100623l9183551qbe31ab4530bcb9c1@mail.gmail.com>

.
For those that were curious what my gadgetry looked like, I put up a
screen recording at:
http://devaldivia.com/2008/05/tango-research-tools.html

b.

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 21:36:45 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango is not looking back
Message-ID: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We've heard it said that the Nuevo Tango is sucking in the youth
  and soon they will convert to Salon Tango once they get into the music of it.
  Well, don't hold your breath. We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
  any kind of music..Prediction: A new music will evolve that will Catapult
  Nuevo Tango into it's own orbit...it is like when the P.C. was waiting for the
  killer application, in order to really take off...and it got it.  Now, the dance is
  here (thanks to the old) and it's waiting for it's music.. you heard it here, first.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wnltkOb28

       
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From nina at earthnet.net  Sat May 10 21:52:53 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:52:53 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango is not looking back
In-Reply-To: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080510194054.01b45918@earthnet.net>

Yeah, they predicted the same thing about 10 years ago.  Nothing 
happenned.  It is all the same as it was then, only the people had 
changed.  And that new music that was also promised back then also 
does not seem to be happenning...

Mario wrote:
---  We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
   any kind of music.

Mario, "Nuevo Tango" can't dance anything or to anything.  It is 
called "nuevo" because it does not fit the category of "dancing" 
:).  I am sure that those that claim to be "tango nuevo" dancers are 
deaf and don't want to be discovered.  But it is diffucult to hide 
because they are usually outside of the music, regardless what the music is.

But...

"Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come."

-Alexander Pope,
An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733






At 07:36 PM 5/10/2008, Mario wrote:
>We've heard it said that the Nuevo Tango is sucking in the youth
>   and soon they will convert to Salon Tango once they get into the 
> music of it.
>   Well, don't hold your breath. We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
>   any kind of music..Prediction: A new music will evolve that will Catapult
>   Nuevo Tango into it's own orbit...it is like when the P.C. was 
> waiting for the
>   killer application, in order to really take off...and it got 
> it.  Now, the dance is
>   here (thanks to the old) and it's waiting for it's music.. you 
> heard it here, first.
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wnltkOb28
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 
>Mobile.  Try it now.
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 21:57:13 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The thinking man's/woman's approach
Message-ID: <381929.99710.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 
  This video looks like a delilghtful setting for a practica
  A beautiful floor, lot's of space and lot's of thought going into these moves.
  The college Tango scene may be what propells salon Tango forward..
  Sure, it may be a little too serious and not enough fun..but you can feel
  the concentration.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYz5S8-88tc

       
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 22:25:33 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] A lot can happen within a dance.
Message-ID: <604122.99251.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A custom in BsAs...saying goodbye to a couple, everyone gets to dance
  with them and say goodbye..a peck on the cheek...touching ..and there
  is a neat attitude about the dance itself...see if you like it, too.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-VdDLcOHWg


       
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 22:43:13 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Perez
Message-ID: <463805.55989.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This guy dances a spiffy Milonga..I'd love to see his slow tango..even his Vals..
  but alas cannot find any...Does anyone know anything about him? 
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpHxlMTRmAM

       
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 22:57:09 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  A lot can happen within a dance.
Message-ID: <168529.25866.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK..last post of the night..
  Here is another video of this teacher in BsAs
  It's a mixed practica with advanced and new students both.
  He says it gives a special quality to the room..
  The embraces look nice, to me.
  Anywan, I'm noticing that the ladies are not wearing heels.
  Would you think/advise women not to wear heels during practica??
  Why? ...I really haven't a clue..it looks good, probably easier on the woman..?
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDZwdVPkQQ

       
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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat May 10 23:24:14 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 12:24:14 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] A lot can happen within a dance.
In-Reply-To: <168529.25866.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <168529.25866.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B381B6E1FBFA4D9C8201DAFF3969AC50@homePC>

Mario, this is 4 postings in one hour.
 Please reread the instructions for tango-l usage. I know, I am not the 
moderator, I am just telling you this as an act of self defense. Do not 
necessarily want to block you but I am getting really really bored.
Sorry, I am not adding a youtube link for extra tango content at this time. 


From bafonso at gmail.com  Sun May 11 02:29:16 2008
From: bafonso at gmail.com (Bruno Afonso)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 02:29:16 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Room sharing at Denver festival
Message-ID: <4f5d14730805102329t353fcb7akea7c5e003e3dd797@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Me and some friends would like to know if anyone wants to join us in a
room at the Denver festival. You would be the 4th and most important
element. 2 guys, 1 girl, between 25-30. We're relaxed and we're ok
with a gal or guy.

If we're 4, we can all have some more beers/wine :)

sorry for the noise, you can now go back to your regular class/tango bashing.

b

From rcgimmi at aol.com  Sun May 11 12:32:08 2008
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 12:32:08 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Perez y Gabriela Elias
Message-ID: <8CA819BB0D2CA36-17FC-1FD8@webmail-nd01.sysops.aol.com>

This performance was filmed at the Escuela de Tango on the third floor of the Galerias Pacificas shopping center in Buenos Aires. ?(I recognize the studio because I spent many days in this room while I was living in BsAs. ?Hotter than hades in their summertime.)



Eduardo Perez is the regular dance partner of Gabriela Elias. ?Second only to Jorge Firpo, she was one of my most influential tango instructors. ?I never had any lessons with Eduardo. ?I don't think he teaches at Escuela de Tango. ?And, I suspect Gabriela probably asked him to show up and do a demo with her.




I know that Eduardo and Gabriela do teach and perform together. ?Their advertisements are in most of the local tango magazines. ?I also know that she has performed at Caesar's Palace (Las Vegas) and the Waldorf-Astoria. ?I would imagine she was partnered with Eduardo for those shows.




Gabriela is a great person. ?Her milonga classes are excellent. ?And -- unlike many lessons I have had -- I could easily remember the steps and sequences long after I left the classroom. ?I can't imagine going to Buenos Aires and *not* taking at least a few classes with her.




I wrote a number of articles about instructors in BsAs. ?One of them is about Gabriela. ?I'll see if I can find it in my archives and I'll post it here.




Abrazos,




Rick


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May 11 13:05:09 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] YouTube Digest of Vals
Message-ID: <588290.48351.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I know that Astrid won't delete my posts without reading them 'cause she knows that 
  she just might miss a good one. Here's a good one for Astrid.
   
  An interesting interview with a Tangoing couple
  I can sympathize with what he is saying. I feel the same way.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3ytqWv7tc
    Here is his Vals..it lacks oooomph! and any sense of delight or energy..what's he getting 
  out of it?  I wonder.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBHASpchEhw
  I like this show couple's Vals...something sexy about these giros
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNJvxIL-sgk
  What's a Vals digest without Tete and Sylvia? (Added 3 days ago)..I like the way that he travels thru space.
  The 'no hands' is useful in that it shows us the role of the hands in dancing the Vals..none.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHDAPJ3u3S0
  Hmmmm, this guy looks familiar..he can dance.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61UmDMPJz3Y
  Here is a Vals followed by a Milonga
  It's obious to me that this dancer is thinking 'steps'...not music.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjabpeIp2dA
  ,,,I'm starting to really like the Vals...so, now it's a close tie with Milonga and Vals..
  [The slo tango is just an infention to torture me.]


       
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From martin at waxman.net  Sun May 11 13:08:05 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:08:05 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  Nuevo Tango is not looking back
In-Reply-To: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080511125547.014a01d0@waxman.net>

At 09:36 PM 5/10/2008, Mario wrote:
>We've heard it said that the Nuevo Tango is sucking in the youth
>   and soon they will convert to Salon Tango 
> once they get into the music of it.
>   Well, don't hold your breath. We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most
>   any kind of music..Prediction: A new music will evolve that will Catapult
>   Nuevo Tango into it's own orbit...it is like 
> when the P.C. was waiting for the
>   killer application, in order to really take 
> off...and it got it.  Now, the dance is
>   here (thanks to the old) and it's waiting for 
> it's music.. you heard it here, first.

Mario,
You are, again, completely wrong.

I agree with Nina Pesochinsky:
 >"Nuevo Tango" can't dance anything or to anything.  It is
 >called "nuevo" because it does not fit the category of "dancing"
 >:).  I am sure that those that claim to be "tango nuevo" dancers are
 >deaf and don't want to be discovered.  But it is diffucult to hide
 >because they are usually outside of the music, regardless what the music is.

The problem, as I see and hear it, is that the 
"nuevo dancers" don't have a sense of musicality 
-- they don't hear the beat/el comp?s.
The music is not Tango; their "dance" is not Argentine Tango.

Marty Waxman




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May 11 13:14:00 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:14:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  The Seven Day Milonga
Message-ID: <625929.90578.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hey Martin,, where did I say that I liked it?? I can't stand the critter...I'm just hoping that it drops the name 'Tango' altogether...I think it will someday..I told Nina that I loved her post. mario. ... 'wrong again'? you owe me
       
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From pkatz at trebnet.com  Sun May 11 16:26:14 2008
From: pkatz at trebnet.com (Patricia Katz)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:26:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L; Nuevo tango is not looking back
Message-ID: <001b01c8b3a5$4306bd30$6433e863@5a5a5899596a4bc>

There are quite a few dancers who do hear the music, can find the beat and 
do dance "traditional tango" i.e. tango salon, close or open. Some of these 
dancers also enjoy and do engage in "nuevo tango". It may appear that when 
they are dancing "nuevo" they are not with the music or the beat even though 
they are known to be competent and even lovely traditional tango dancers. 
Perhaps they are experimenting with the music and taking the dance, "tango" 
outside the so-called box so that it appears as if they are not dancing on 
the beat or dancing with the music. I prefer tango in the close embrace and 
I do find that in general this "nuevo" dancing as I see it happeing in our 
milongas not beautiful, but that's only my opinion.

http://torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com 


From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Sun May 11 22:20:20 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:20:20 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Perez y Gabriela Elias
In-Reply-To: <8CA819BB0D2CA36-17FC-1FD8@webmail-nd01.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA819BB0D2CA36-17FC-1FD8@webmail-nd01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210805111920l5a39fb5ak8120fe61ec2fb6dd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rick,
My partner and I are heading over to Buenos Aires in a few weeks.We'll be
there for a year , and I'm looking forward to a year of total immersion in
tango (and spanish). I'd be very interested in reading your articles on
instructors. Would you be able to forward them on, either in tango-l or
privately.

thenks.

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 2:32 AM, <rcgimmi at aol.com> wrote:

>
> I wrote a number of articles about instructors in BsAs.  One of them is
> about Gabriela.  I'll see if I can find it in my archives and I'll post it
> here.
>
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From ming_mar at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 03:39:55 2008
From: ming_mar at yahoo.com (Ming Mar)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:39:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] A lot can happen within a dance.
Message-ID: <846386.93442.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Mario writes:
>It's a mixed practica ... 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDZwdVPkQQ

What I like about this video is that they're moving
around in a circle, respecting the beat of the music
(not rushing it), not bumping into each other, and not
looking at their feet.

The teacher charges 12 mangos (around 4 U.S. bucks)
for a 2-hour drop-in group class.

So, to those of you who teach, I hope your students,
in a similar environment, dance as well as those in
the video.


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From arborlaw at comcast.net  Mon May 12 09:34:46 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:34:46 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up - Off-List
In-Reply-To: <49750.1210302953@tangohk.com>
References: <49750.1210302953@tangohk.com>
Message-ID: <48284776.7030907@comcast.net>

I always feel that kudos and compliments should be shared with everyone 
on the list, and not just selfishly kept to one's self.  Here's to "US"! ;)

Keith wrote:
> Off-List Reply
> 
> Don't worry gals, you can relax. Now that Shahrukh is actively 
> moderating (censoring) the List, there will be less and less criticism 
> of American Tango. Soon everyone will be in agreement that American 
> is just as good (or better?) than Argentine. Congratulations.
> 
> Keith, HK
> 
> 
>  On Fri May  9  2:48 , Carol Shepherd <arborlaw at comcast.net> sent:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
>> things about Argentine Tango in the US and this apparently 
>> overwhelmingly popular and positive event.
>>
>> There was an appalling lack of negativity about this topic, and I see 
>> that the tone of the list is now being restored.
>>
> 
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz



From febaker at buffalotango.com  Mon May 12 10:11:01 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:11:01 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo Tangothon
Message-ID: <90ig24hsn0ehid8155pca6ehkags66gcuc@4ax.com>



Hello everyone...

Here's an idea I put out last week in our Buffalo Tango Newsletter.
It's being well accepted and perhaps will become an even bigger event
than anticipated.   Suggestions have come in on improving it (they're
included below).., including one to move it to Rochester to be more
convienient to everyone in the western *half* of NYS instead of just
the 'end'.   


The Tangothon.

All instructors wishing to partake would give a *free* Tango lesson to
all who attended....   That would in fact *be* the event.    Multiple
instructors giving classes, in one big workshop, and all of it being
totally free to everyone who came to it.  

Instructors will be able to give back something to the Tango
communities that have given them so much.   Everyone attending would
benefit greatly and therefore the communities they come from would
too.   Along with these free classes, instructors would be able give
private lessons, and perhaps more benefit as described below..   

The length of each lesson, likely either 55 or 80 minutes.., and the
number of days the event is held will be determined by  the number
of instructors who wish to join in.  

The overall  benefit of the event would be that the best ways and
means to teach, learn and dance Tango would tend to come to the
surface.   The students would have the opportunity to learn a little
from a number of different  instructors.   These should be geared more
to the philosophy of the instructor's method of teaching.   To get the
various concepts they each have, other than a particular level or any
specific audience.   It is generally agreed that Tango students need
to study with many different teachers to understand Tango fully. Most
instructors themselves will tell their students that.., and this would
be a very good opportunity to them to do so.   And at no cost to
themseves at all..  It's win-win.  

Instructors too may see good ideas and concepts from each other. Those
they would then adopt into their own teaching.   So in this way the
entire level of understanding of Tango would raise, which should
create a whole new wave of teaching too.   

All students who come to this free event must agree to take *all* the
classes.   It is not being held for people to pick and choose their
favorite instructor.    The sole idea is to give people a chance to
see multiple methods of instruction and to gain a broader
understanding of Tango.   To not have to take them *all* would defeat
the entire purpose and good of it.    Everyone can go back to their
favorite instructor when it's over.
  
To help insure this we have devised a way to encourage a student's
full participation.

For every instructor giving a class in the workshop, the student will
put up $20.00 before the workshop begins.      For example six
instuctors would require an up-front payment of $120.00 per person
attending to get in the door.   But that money will be given back to
the student, in it's entirety, when the workshop is completed.   So in
the end, they pay nothing.

Unless they do *not* take all classes... 

If a student leaves early, they will have agreed to forfit $20 for any
class or classes they have not taken.   IOW, the classes taken are
free.  Those not taken are charged for.., by pre-agreement.   Any such
'forfitted' money will go directly to the instructor who's lesson was
skipped.   To help apease their 'disappointment'..  :-)   That would
also cover coming late at the start of the workshop and missing the
first class.    It's a very easy concept...   If you can't be sure of
being at or staying for all the classes, for all the good they will do
you, be ready to pay for the ones you miss..., or just don't come at
all.

One more note...  The sequence of the instructor's classes will be
done by pulling straws at the start of each time slot.  So no one
knows which instructor will be next until the class begins.

I'd certainly like to hear from instructors who would like to partake.
>From CA's Golden Horseshoe as well...   More ideas and suggestions..
Where it may be held.  Whatever one thinks is needed.

Many thanks...

Floyd

***

That's it folks...  :-)  

Maybe a good idea for a lot of other areas too, eh?    A nice thing
for people to do, for Tango's sake...

Tango on...

Floyd

     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 10:52:01 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Message-ID: <76362.37674.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very sensitive Tanguera.
   
  http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/

       
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 11:27:43 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Message-ID: <387851.45309.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Natacha Poberaj & El Flaco Dany en Sunderland May 08
  Dancing to Electrolonga...I don't like the music that much..do you??
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEvEWzVgNbI
   
  ..stay thin guys!
   

       
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From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Mon May 12 11:28:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up
In-Reply-To: <20080509112619.LS94K.660864.root@fepweb15>
Message-ID: <memo.20080512162804.3432E@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> You'll need to post some pictures or video for us to see if it's worth 
> it to make such a trek

Sorry, I know of no photos or video of the social dancing at OsterTango. 
That's not generally considered acceptable behaviour over here.

> Here's the link to some photos from the last big one I was at, Tango de 
> los Muertos (in the Boston area).  I assure you, it was not half empty. 

More like two-thirds empty, here:

 http://www.tangodelosmuertos.com/2007/photos/Thursday/index.html

If painting white lane lines on the dance floor was supposed to attract 
dancers, it seems it didn't work too well.

Jay wrote of Portland festival milongas:

> ALL the milongas are packed

That's nice to know. Thanks.

--
Chris

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Mon May 12 11:42:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo Tangothon
In-Reply-To: <90ig24hsn0ehid8155pca6ehkags66gcuc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080512164254.3432F@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> For every instructor giving a class in the workshop, the student will
> put up $20.00 before the workshop begins. ... If a student leaves early,
> they will have agreed to forfit $20 for any class or classes they have
> not taken.

Floyd, is your intention /really/ to reward the worst class instruction?

And penalise students who can't endure it?

> The Tangothon.
> 
> All instructors wishing to partake would give a *free* Tango lesson to
> all who attended....   That would in fact *be* the event. 

Try "Instructathon".

--
Chris

From febaker at buffalotango.com  Mon May 12 11:57:55 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:57:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo Tangothon
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080512164254.3432F@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <90ig24hsn0ehid8155pca6ehkags66gcuc@4ax.com>
	<memo.20080512164254.3432F@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <r4pg24lrnm81nrf7iebu2jvue4a55lk5be@4ax.com>



On Mon, 12 May 2008 16:42 +0100 (BST), you wrote:

>> For every instructor giving a class in the workshop, the student will
>> put up $20.00 before the workshop begins. ... If a student leaves early,
>> they will have agreed to forfit $20 for any class or classes they have
>> not taken.
>
>Floyd, is your intention /really/ to reward the worst class instruction?
>
>And penalise students who can't endure it?

It's all a matter of opinion I guess...  Who says what is good or
bad...   But in reality I'm simply trying to cause what *most* people
say is the way to go.., you know?  

For students to see a variety of Tango instructors.., good or bad, as
it normally goes down anyway...  Not to mention knowing a wider range
of methods and thoughts about Tango from those who actually teach
them.  Without taking the years of time, many miles of driving, and
hundreds if not thousands of dollars that it would otherwise involve.

The only thing different here is that they pay for lessons not taken.
To force them if you will to get lots of Tango instruction for free.
But they really don't have to come at all...  I said that too, you
know?   You really don't have to worry about what grownups do.  They
can make decisions for themselves.

Not to mention that we do have those here too who can't deal with the
concept of putting themselves in direct comparison to others.   It may
help people see that too, when those instructors don't get involved.

>> The Tangothon.
>> 
>> All instructors wishing to partake would give a *free* Tango lesson to
>> all who attended....   That would in fact *be* the event. 
>
>Try "Instructathon".

Maybe Tangoteachathon...?    That's clearer I think...  

Cheers...

Floyd


     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From keith at tangohk.com  Mon May 12 08:55:30 2008
From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:55:30 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Perez y Gabriela Elias
Message-ID: <51196.1210596930@tangohk.com>

I just received an email circular from 'Escuela Argentina de Tango' which includes information that 
Eduardo Perez will start teaching Milonga Con Traspie classes in June.

Keith, HK


On Mon May 12  0:32 , rcgimmi at aol.com sent:

I never had any lessons with Eduardo. ?I don't think he teaches at Escuela de Tango. ?And, I suspect 
Gabriela probably asked him to show up and do a demo with her.



From keith at tangohk.com  Mon May 12 09:44:17 2008
From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:44:17 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] YouTube Digest of Vals
Message-ID: <51444.1210599857@tangohk.com>

I think we all know that Tango Vals music is based on the Viennese Waltz and, in fact, it's quite easy to dance 
a Viennese Waltz to Tango Vals music, but at a quicker tempo - stepping on each of the 3 beats.

There was a recent thread of Ballroom figures in Tango and what I find interesting in the video of Tete is that, 
at 2.12 minutes, he actually dances the 6-step Reverse Turn of the Viennese Waltz except for the final closing 
step.

It's LF fwd, RF side, LF cross in front, RF back, LF side. He doesn't do the final LF close. Makes me wonder 
if Tete actually dances any Ballroom.

Keith, HK


 On Mon May 12  1:05 , Mario  sent:

>  What's a Vals digest without Tete and Sylvia? (Added 3 days ago)..I like the way that he travels thru space.
>  The 'no hands' is useful in that it shows us the role of the hands in dancing the Vals..none.
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=KHDAPJ3u3S0



From dchester at charter.net  Mon May 12 13:21:19 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:21:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up - Off-List
Message-ID: <20080512132119.9717T.189236.root@fepweb01>

FWIW (and I only speak for myself), 

I don't have an issue with criticism about American Tango, with the caviat that the criticizer try to make some sense, and actually have a clue what they are talking about.  IMO, that is the main thing that has been missing from the some of the recent criticism.  

Drivel about lousy Amercian instructors (when the instructors in the video refered to are mostly not American), or foolish comments about classes at festivals (when the OsterTango festival they are hyping clearly has classes posted on-line), or posting a photo at the beginning of a milonga to make a lame argument about attendance, does little more than making the criticizers look like fools.

If you want to criticize American Tango, (and you actually want to be taken seriously, rather than come off like a clown), make a statement that has a little more substance to it than simply trying to start a flame war (for example: something you can actually support with some objective evidence).  Another thing for the critics, be just as willing accept criticism, as you are to whine and moan about others.  

Just to be clear, I have no issue with the general statement that Argentine Tango is better than American Tango.  The funny thing is that it's not the Argentines who are whining and complaining about American Tango.  A lot of American spend good money on classes and workshops by teachers from Argentina (both here and there).  I wish I could dance as well as some of the Argentines, but I don't, and possibly I never will.

BTW, do the US haters agree that the Argentine Tango is better than the Tango other countries (say like in the UK or in Hong Kong), or do you actually think it's just the US Tango that is not as good as Argentina?  

And with that, let the crying about American Tango continue.

David


-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw at comcast.net> 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Stone Soup 2008 Follow Up - Off-List 
To: Tango List <tango-l at mit.edu> 


I always feel that kudos and compliments should be shared with everyone 
on the list, and not just selfishly kept to one's self.  Here's to "US"! ;)

Keith wrote:
> Off-List Reply
> 
> Don't worry gals, you can relax. Now that Shahrukh is actively 
> moderating (censoring) the List, there will be less and less criticism 
> of American Tango. Soon everyone will be in agreement that American 
> is just as good (or better?) than Argentine. Congratulations.
> 
> Keith, HK
> 
> 
>  On Fri May  9  2:48 , Carol Shepherd <arborlaw at comcast.net> sent:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> I'm so glad to see that list members are stepping up to say negative 
>> things about Argentine Tango in the US and this apparently 
>> overwhelmingly popular and positive event.
>>
>> There was an appalling lack of negativity about this topic, and I see 
>> that the tone of the list is now being restored.
>>

From rcgimmi at aol.com  Mon May 12 15:12:33 2008
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:12:33 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gabriella Elias
Message-ID: <8CA827B43F45019-290-411@webmail-de19.sysops.aol.com>

INSTRUCTOR REVIEW

Gabriel Elias (edugabitango at hotmail.com)  4574-1593
website www.advance.comar/usuarios/edugabi

I took a gamble on this class and just showed up for it.  I knew 
nothing about Gabriel Elias or her milonga traspie class when I 
enrolled.  The results were something akin to winning the lottery.  
"Fue un exito grande."

There were approximately 15 people in the classroom when Gabriel walked 
in.  Ten of these students were men.  For me, that's not an auspicious 
way to begin the class.  While Gabriel was talking with the class, 
another five students drifted in late.  All of these -- luckily -- were 
women.

Gabriel is about 5' 5", mid to late 30s, slender and has shoulder 
length red hair.  She has a slightly Roman nose.  Her eyes are deep set 
and bulge just a little bit in their sockets.  She has a distinctive 
appearance and she is very attractive.  She's was also full of 
enthusiasm and energy for the class.

First, she addressed the class in Spanish.  She said she would prefer 
to teach the class in Spanish because that was her natural language; 
but, if it was necessary, she thought she could use English as the 
language of instruction.

Then, in English, she asked, Who here speaks absolutely no Spanish?  
Two people raised their hands.  Next, she asked, Who speaks Spanish?  I 
raised my hand, as did two thirds of the people in the room.  And, 
finally she asked, Who speaks English?  Everyone in the room raised a 
hand.

OK, she said, the class will be in English but you're going to have to 
help me translate from Spanish if I get stuck.

She put some milonga music on the CD player and asked us to face the 
long mirror that lines one of the studio's walls.  She demonstrated a 
basic milonga step and asked us to copy it.

We arranged ourselves into four rows that were five people abreast.  We 
stood behind her, watched in the mirror, followed her example and, 
together, we danced.  First we advanced on the mirror.  Then, in 
reverse, we danced away from the mirror.

What a pretty spectacle that was!  Everyone was simultaneously 
following her steps and we were all on the beat.  We weren't partnered 
up.  Each of us was dancing with the rest of the group.  If the world's 
artists were to form an army, this is how it would march.

Gabriel then changed the pattern and made it slightly more difficult.  
She asked us to copy it.  After we went through two more iterations of 
such changes, she told us to partner up and try to combine the 
exercises -- and keep it on the beat of the music.

By the time the class ended an hour later, we had done ten basic steps, 
including two new, interesting ways to do back ochos.  She also showed 
us some multiple, shuffling steps that are done while both the lead and 
the follow stay in the cross.

A few people were still experiencing some minor difficulty at the 
conclusion of the class.  But, I think everyone left with a clear 
concept of what they were supposed to be doing.

As we were closing up the room in preparation for the next instructors 
and their students, I told Gabriel that I was impressed with both the 
lesson and her ability to conduct it in English.  (Our students were 
 from Holland, Germany, Belgium, Japan, the US, the UK and who knows 
where else.)  It had been an impressive performance.  Sure, she 
stumbled for words frequently.  When this happened the students had 
always been able to help translate.  She conducted this rather large 
class without the benefit of a partner or assistants, too.

She put in a pitch for her milonga before we left.  Friday night, class 
at 8:30, dinner at 10:30, milonga at 11:00 until whenever.  Avenida 
Ramon Falcon 2750.  Live music and a show included.  $7.00 = $2.35US.

Gabriel gave me two of her business cards.  The second one was a group 
card for Labaldosa Tango.  labaldosatango at hotmail.com  website 
www.labaldosatango.com.ar.

(I subsequently learned that Gabriel has performed at Caesar's Palace 
and at the Waldorf Astoria in the US.)


GABRIELA ELIAS, A BIT MORE

I enjoyed Gabriela Elias's traspie milonga class on Monday afternoon 
(12.12.05) so much that I signed up to repeat the same class on 
Wednesday morning (14.12.05).  I hoped the second time around might be 
as inspiring as the first.  It wasn't.

The Monday class had 20 students.  The Wednesday class had 6 students 
and all but one of these -- a very nice, older Japanese woman -- were 
leads.  The majority of the people were also beginners.

At the start of the lesson, Gabriela apologized for the low turnout, 
which she attributed to holding the class so early in the morning.  
(And, yes, 11:00AM is early for much of the tango crowd.)  She then did 
a nice job of teaching her students.  We received far more individual 
attention that the people in the Monday class received.  But, the 
Wednesday classs lacked energy.

When I reviewed Inarra and Figliolo's class last week, I said something 
to the effect that having good instructors could have a galvanizing 
effect on their students.  No offense to the beginners in the Gabriela 
Elias's Wednesday class, but it seems that the students also have a 
huge effect on the tone of the class.

Gabriela criticized the way I led the Japanese woman into the cross, 
too.  To help find the problem, Gabriela and I took the embrace and we 
danced a few steps so she could diagnose the problem.  She said I 
shouldn't be turning my shoulders before the woman crosses.  This 
touched off an interesting discussion between the two of us.

There has been a long-running debate in the tango world about whether 
the "cruz" (cross) -- which is the defining step in Argentine tango -- 
is led by the man or done by convention by the woman.  In Portland, we 
don?t hear much about this conflict because ALL of Portland's 
instructors say that the cross is led.  (It's difficult to have a 
debate when the opposing viewpoint isn't represented.)  Most of the 
instructors in Buenos Aires, too, will say that the cross is led.  
Gabriela is the first true expert I have encountered who says the cross 
should be done by convention.

I didn't try to argue with her.  Neither my knowledge of tango or my 
poor Spanish would allow it.  But, I did question her technique and I 
said that my other instructors thought the cross should be led.  Her 
response?  "En MI libro . . ." she began, as she pointed to herself.  
(In MY book . . . )

She's a famous tango dancer.  I've watched her perform and I can't 
argue with the results.  I danced with her again for a minute or two 
and, this time, I did not lead the cross with my shoulders.  She was 
satisfied I could do it her way and we dropped the matter.  I didn't 
want to eat into the time she could be using to help her other students.

She remained calm during that discussion and I've continued to lead the 
cross in spite of her instructions.  We understand each other's 
positions and we have simply agreed to disagree.  She's very nice and 
we still do the kiss on the cheek greeting before class begins.

I first became aware of the "lead vs convention" debate back in 
Portland in 2003 when I began Argentine tango.  Instructor Megan 
Pingree spoke about it during one of her drop in classes.  After two 
years of dance instruction, I started thinking that the debate had 
ended with the "led" viewpoint emerging victorious.  I am pleaased (?) 
to report that the issue is still alive and kicking and the authorities 
are still divided.




From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon May 12 15:44:41 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:44:41 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing.  Why??
Message-ID: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>


Mario wrote:
>>hey Martin,, where did I say that I liked it?? I can't stand the critter...
>>I'm just hoping that it drops the name 'Tango' altogether...
>>I think it will someday

I understand that nuevo tango is merely a "means of analysis that enables us to 
identify the movements and combinations of movements that are common in 
traditional tango, and to re-use them in ways that are not common in traditional 
tango." - Andres Amarilla

I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost embarrassed
by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers.  I remain totally 
unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an extension of 
traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres & his wife 
Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and musicality.

Is it jealousy?  Is it fear of change?  Is it bad tribal behavior?  
Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people?  I'm clueless!

Cheers,

D. David Thorn

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 15:54:39 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Message-ID: <689632.13699.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi David,  you're right it is unseemly and unkind.
   I have to confess that I have a really strong negative feeling towards all that is Nuevo.
  I too am a close embrace dancer and if Nuevo takes over the Milongas ..I quit dancing.
  its as simple as that ...I would just as soon cha cha or salsa...and Tango is my passion..
  so, what am I to do..pretend it's nice??? I hate it..I don't even like to look at it, let alone
  be on the same dance floor with it...why such an inability to 'understand' the negativity?? 
  OK there it is and here I am..out there in all of my non nice ugliness..I started off wanting
  to make this a nicer post but why hide the truth..I hope others won't hate me and I hope
  Tango L.. won't punish me...hey, maybe I can be cured?? Maybe I need some mental
  adjustments??   sincerely but unkindly  Mario

       
---------------------------------
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From rcgimmi at aol.com  Mon May 12 15:58:45 2008
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:58:45 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Thank You
Message-ID: <8CA8281B895CFD9-CD8-1650@FWM-D28.sysops.aol.com>

Thank you for the many kind comments I received regarding my review of 
Gabriela Elias.  I also have a review of Elias's milonga at Labaldosa 
(it was a funeral milonga for Carmencita Calderon) and I will post 
that, too, if there is a consensus I should do so.

I also wrote a review about Jorge Firpo, my #1 instructor in Buenos 
Aires.  I used to call him "Maestro" but in the tango world, "God" 
might be a more appropriate form of address.  There's nothing this guy 
can't do.  The fact that he appeared in numerous photos with Sra 
Calderon that were on display at the Labaldosa milonga was a huge 
compliment to him.

I'll post that, too, if people would like to see it.  Sorry, I don't 
have a blog.  These were all from an email diary I kept while I was 
down there.

-Rick

From martin at waxman.net  Mon May 12 16:07:24 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:07:24 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing.  Why??
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080512155510.01f20da8@waxman.net>

At 03:44 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote:
>  I'm clueless!

It's simple.
It's not bashing. It's realizing and expressing the difference.
Argentine Tango and Nuevo Tango are different dances.
My preference, like yours, is close embrace Argentine Tango, danced 
to traditional Tango music.
I just don't dance the other (nuevo) dance.  It doesn't work well on 
a traditional milonga pista.
If people want to do it, it's fine with me -- just not at a 
traditional milonga.

Marty Waxman 


From keith at totango.net  Mon May 12 16:29:50 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:29:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Message-ID: <61693.64.229.162.82.1210624190.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

Well, we have a perceptible divide.

It's been looming and growing for 4 years, more-or-less.

Hopefully, people on both sides are quite sensitive to the reasons and
implications.

But - there is a Problem.

Divides are not good things. Division separates and dilutes. We are seeing
the sad effects in every community.


I am one who would like to be able to not be caught on either side. I am a
professional who sincerely seeks to please all tango lovers.

I do perceive a "to hell with them" attitude happening on both sides. I
find this disturbing.

It does seem clear to me why this is happening. Unfortunately, to describe
it gets into delicate issues for one side which might tend to put the
observer in the awkward position of not being understood much by that half
of the protagonists.

Being misunderstood or misinterpreted is not something I want at all.

This shuts me up.

That bothers me too - that a balanced opinion may not be offered for open
consideration to people who lack some basic information.

During these past 4 years, I have watched as the divide opened up and
became the Problem. It doesn't take a genius to understand what the
situation is.

Addressing it to effect is something I can only wish to be able to help with.

If I could only say what what I want to and not offend anybody's
sensibilities; but that would mean some people would have to understand
more than they do now.

Teachers/leaders have to prepare that way. And apparently, they don't get it.

Woe is me and the whole tango community for that.

One side is insulted and embarrassed; one side is blithely unaware.

What a pity.

Lots of people are staying home because of it.

Maybe my friends Fabian, Gustavo and Chicho and some others would like to
show some leadership to their blithe disciples?



From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 16:34:53 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Message-ID: <772586.89521.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am curious Mario (and others of like mind), what exactly is it that you do not like about the so-called Tango Nuevo? I know that many object to the apparent lack of musicality exhibited by tango-nuevo dancers (absolutely not inherently true in my mind), some object to many tango-nuevo dancers not observing dance floor etiquette (likewise, not special to tango nuevo). What else? There are many really bad dancers in all dancing and not that many good ones. However, we all have the right to our own expression, don't we? I know, I know, but that does not give us the right to disturb others in enjoying their own right, etc. etc. I have seen classic dancers and nuevo dancers co-existing on the same floor rather nicely, however.

A beautifully danced "nuevo" -- to some of Libedinsky's music, for
example -- can be very poetic, artistic. and romantic. And it can feel really
wonderful -- the interplay between the partners, the whole expanded way
of dance conversation.

I believe that it takes quite a skill to dance tango-nuevo well. I also believe that many shift to it from the start mistakenly believing that it is easier to dance that way. etc. etc. There are many reasons why people drift to it or simply choose to dance it, including myself who is just scratching the surface in that area.

Is it possible that those who "bash" tango nuevo never looked at it with open eyes and open heart and open mind?

I think that this may be an age old dynamic where the followers of old, established forms have hard time accepting the legitimacy of the new explorations.

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:54:39 PM
Subject: [Tango-L]  More Nuevo bashing. Why??

Hi David,  you're right it is unseemly and unkind.
   I have to confess that I have a really strong negative feeling towards all that is Nuevo.
  I too am a close embrace dancer and if Nuevo takes over the Milongas ..I quit dancing.
  its as simple as that ...I would just as soon cha cha or salsa...and Tango is my passion..
  so, what am I to do..pretend it's nice??? I hate it..I don't even like to look at it, let alone
  be on the same dance floor with it...why such an inability to 'understand' the negativity?? 
  OK there it is and here I am..out there in all of my non nice ugliness..I started off wanting
  to make this a nicer post but why hide the truth..I hope others won't hate me and I hope
  Tango L.. won't punish me...hey, maybe I can be cured?? Maybe I need some mental
  adjustments??   sincerely but unkindly  Mario

      
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
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From keith at totango.net  Mon May 12 16:42:45 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:42:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Bashing - why?
Message-ID: <61709.64.229.162.82.1210624965.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

"Maybe my friends Fabian, Gustavo and Chicho and some others would like to
show some leadership to their blithe disciples"?

Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?



From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon May 12 17:06:42 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:06:42 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Message-ID: <BLU119-W40AF9C3A9078EFFD7BB87091CC0@phx.gbl>


Keith Elshaw wrote:
"Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?"

Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent and considerate 
nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a puente.  I watched 
last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in less space than 
my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado.  Etc.  As far as I can tell, bad 
ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango.  And when they do go a little crazy, the 
good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of the floor, 
and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace 
dancers are wont to do.

Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the 
requirements for dancing nuevo tango.  I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

Cheers,

D. David Thorn

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From nina at earthnet.net  Mon May 12 17:14:22 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:14:22 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W40AF9C3A9078EFFD7BB87091CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W40AF9C3A9078EFFD7BB87091CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20080512151422.etv9uq3vokckwsss@webmail.earthnet.net>

Sounds like different people call different things "Tango Nuevo".  It  
might be useful for the benefit of this discussion to hear from those  
who have contributed so far as what they actually consider to be  
'tango nuevo", how they would describe it, and possibly name some  
dancers, preferably extremely famous for the sake of recognition by  
most, as clear examples of the dancing they perceive as "nuevo".

Thank you.

Nina






Quoting David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>:

>
> Keith Elshaw wrote:
> "Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
> space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?"
>
> Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent   
> and considerate
> nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a  
>  puente.  I watched
> last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in   
> less space than
> my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado.  Etc.  As far as I   
> can tell, bad
> ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango.  And when they do go   
> a little crazy, the
> good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of  
>  the floor,
> and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace
> dancers are wont to do.
>
> Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the
> requirements for dancing nuevo tango.  I might be wrong, but I don't  
>  think so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D. David Thorn
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get Free (PRODUCT) RED?  Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics.
> http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From martin at waxman.net  Mon May 12 18:04:27 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:04:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W40AF9C3A9078EFFD7BB87091CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W40AF9C3A9078EFFD7BB87091CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080512180022.01ebdc58@waxman.net>

At 05:06 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote:

>Keith Elshaw wrote:
>"Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
>space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?"
>...  And when they do go a little crazy, the good nuevo dancers that 
>I have seen appear to do it in the middle of the floor,
>...

That's part of the problem.
Why are they dancing in the middle of the floor -- out of the ronda?

Marty Waxman


From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Mon May 12 18:09:50 2008
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:09:50 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] nuevo bashing
Message-ID: <BAY144-W19FB39B51EA5F4DE58111099CC0@phx.gbl>

i suspect that our resident troll, mario, bashes nuevo because he can't do it. nuevo takes athleticism, balance, strength, rhythm, musicality and style. obviously, mario can only dance the keyboard, and only enjoys the music of his own voice.
 
when confronted with a person who can do something that you can't, or something better than you can, the first response by the can'ts tends to be to bash the people who can. have you noticed that the nuevo dancers are not the ones complaining, they just want to dance. they are happy to share their floor with anyone who loves to dance, who is respectful of the rules of the particular forum, and have a general "dance on" attitude. but the old curmudgeons are the ones who are doing all the whining. a real dancer just loves to see people dance, they may or may not understand what they are seeing, but a real dancer loves to see people dance. personally, i don't really care what dance someone does on my floor as long as they are respectful, line and place dancers in the middle, line of dance dancers on the outside, pass with care. HAVE FUN, BE NICE.
 
mario, get out of your computer den and go try dancing. you might find that there is just joy in dancing and not typing.
 
off to danceThe TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
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From keith at totango.net  Mon May 12 18:14:26 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:14:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
Message-ID: <61971.64.229.162.82.1210630466.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

Before Nuevo ever came around, some knowledge-challenged people decided
that was a good place to do their thing. If you don't know, that can seem
reasonable.

Of course, it's not that at all.

People in the ronda all-of-a-sudden found/find themselves being
blind-sided from bodies coming out of nowhere.

People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who
inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad
feelings.

Nuevo dancers who don't respect (through this lack of knowledge) are
causing big problems for their clique/love.




From tony at oakebooks.com  Mon May 12 18:25:13 2008
From: tony at oakebooks.com (Tony)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 23:25:13 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] The Show-Tango Crime
Message-ID: <4828C3C9.8010207@oakebooks.com>

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> How about producing a show called "Tango Crimes" and showing it 
> everywhere (sort of like in "Hamlet")?  But make sure that you search 
> your audience for daggers and poison, because there is no ridicule 
> greater than seeing oneself reflected on stage.
>   
Hey, how about "Hamlet, the Tango-musical". The hero hides his cunning, 
travelling against the line of dance, with endless voleos and ganchos in 
a crowded milonga... no-one can believe he is sane.

It's gonna be a hit.

Tony

-- 
www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php
Martial Arts : Health : Dance


From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org  Mon May 12 18:34:09 2008
From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:34:09 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Message-ID: <20080512222934.5BBBB235317@p3fed1.frb.org>

Something to chew on:

As it was originally conceived nuevo tango was largely a pedagogic 
approach to tango that emphasized a structural analysis of the dance in 
which previously unexplored combinations of steps and new figures can be 
found.  Some of those exploring those possibilities gradually developed it 
into a style that is danced in an open, loose or elastic embrace with a 
very upright posture, and great emphasis is placed on dancers maintaining 
their own axes.  Although some advocates of tango nuevo emphasize a new 
structural analysis over specific figures, some of the identifiable 
figures in nuevo tango are overturn ochos and change of directions in 
turns, which are most easily accomplished in a loose or elastic embrace.

The dancers most often identified with nuevo tango are Gustavo Naveira, 
Fabian Salas and Chicho Frumboli.  In just these three people, you see 
some progression from it being mostly a pedagogic approach to it being 
mostly a style of dancing tango.  Among the younger generation of nuevo 
dancers are Homer and Christina Ladas and Andres Amarilla and Meredith 
Klein.  I have no objection to how any of these people dance.  All of them 
are capable of dancing in the ronda and with the music.

My objections are to the bozo and bozoette who were in front of me and my 
partner at a recent milonga who were pursuing some new innovation without 
regard to the ronda or the rhythm of the music being played.  These same 
objections hold for other oblivious dancers pursuing elaborate, 
space-consuming figures in other styles of tango.

With best regards,
Steve


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 18:29:17 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Message-ID: <28966.76730.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The first time I saw Tango ( social dance) it was by a singular couple on a
  dance floor built into their second floor...I was floored...first it was the music
  and then it was the embrace of the couple dancing..pure beauty to me..a hope.
  The second time I saw Tango (social) it was at a practica where everyone was
  dancing close embrace..I was dumbfounded..I'd never seen such beauty in public...a hope.
  Now, I've tried watching Nuevo with 'open eyes' imagining myself doing it...not
  Sure, it can be pretty and so can salsa...so what? ..and besides the fact that it needs
  three times (at least) the space of abrazo milonguero, I just have no interest in dancing it.
  What the heck is it doing at my dance event??? That's what I can't understand..
  It's not an evolution nor an improvement. It's a dis-connect as far as I'm concerned.
  With my first love, the Tango has a beauty that is indescribeable. We've all seen the
  pictures of couples locked in ecstatic embrace..sleeping, dreaming, laying together
  in the walking embrace..what are these other people doing? ..and who let them in
  to do it here? Don't they know that this is a celestial dreamroom and not a skate-board park??

       
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From stermitz at tango.org  Mon May 12 18:33:48 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:33:48 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing.  Why??
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2DCDEC50-4C37-47C4-99F7-218370F35755@tango.org>

I think there are two or more definitions of nuevo tango.

(1) I learned from Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho back in the last  
century, and as far as I understand, they taught Argentine Tango. They  
developed a method for analyzing, learning and training in Argentine  
Tango. They tried steps on both sides, or reversed the leader's step  
to the follower, and examined what you had to change for things to  
work. Sometimes that meant compromising the embrace, or sometimes that  
meant dropping the embrace.

Of particular value to me from that training was the concept of axis,  
and maintaining a balance between the axis of the partners. I use this  
concept whether I'm dancing open or close, and it is immensely useful  
for diagnosis of technical flaws when learning new moves or teaching.

But, all those concepts are about learning traditional Argentine  
Tango, as well as the techniques which make it easy and make a wide  
variety of steps possible. If you watch Gustavo dance, his style of  
dancing appears very much in the school of traditional salon or salon/ 
fantasy tango. He has a knack for making an extremely difficult move  
appear super-easy.


(2) Now, if I understand correctly, some people these days  are using  
the term Nuevo Tango to mean a different style of tango, or tango  
danced to non-tango music, or tango danced without respect for the  
dance floor, or tango as a collection of "cool moves" (like the the  
mermaid move, where the leader picks up the follower and swings her  
legs around in a giant circle while she flips her feet like fins;  
Laugh away, I've seen it!)

To me, this second definition of Nuevo Tango isn't really about tango.  
I mean, at a practice or on stage dance to whatever music you want, or  
dance whatever style you want, or do whatever cool moves you want.  
It's a free world. There are no rules about what steps are legal or  
aren't. C


(3) A milonga is something different from stage or a practice floor. A  
milonga is a social setting in which there are certain rules and  
conventions. Mostly, these can be boiled down to: respecting the  
people around you, fitting into the social environment and energy of  
the crowd, listening and dancing to the music, taking care of your  
partner and using good floor-craft.

Or am I wrong? Are there actually people who advocate that you can do  
whatever you want at a milonga: running into people or racing around  
or zig-zagging between lanes?



On May 12, 2008, at 1:44 PM, David Thorn wrote:
> I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost  
> embarrassed
> by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers.  I  
> remain totally
> unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an  
> extension of
> traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres &  
> his wife
> Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and  
> musicality.
>
> Is it jealousy?  Is it fear of change?  Is it bad tribal behavior?
> Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people?  I'm clueless!
>
> Cheers,
>
> D. David Thorn


From lgmoseley at aol.com  Mon May 12 19:14:11 2008
From: lgmoseley at aol.com (Laurence Moseley)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:14:11 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Nuevo Bashing Why?
Message-ID: <8CA829D05BD6255-12EC-DFE@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>


I quote from a recent post: " I know that many object to the apparent
lack of musicality exhibited by tango-nuevo dancers (absolutely not 
inherently
true in my mind), some object to many tango-nuevo dancers not observing 
dance
floor etiquette (likewise, not special to tango nuevo). What else? "

What else do you want? If people cannot dance to Tango music and cannot 
dance in a Milonga with other dancers, why on earth should they give 
them name Tango to what they do?

People have every right to dance Nuevo - or Ballroom, or Jive, or 
Highland Dancing, or whatever they want. They can easily hire a hall 
and organise some sessions (I've done just that for ballroom, scottish 
dancing, and Morris dancing). It's just that they (a) should not call 
it Tango and (b) should not do it in the same space and time where 
others are trying to dance Tango and are being impeded.

I could do weigth-lifting and perhaps do it very well. However, if I 
did it in the middle of the track during the Olympic 400 metres final, 
I would not claim that what I was doing was Sprinting or Running. I 
certainly would not be surprised if the genuine sprinters were to 
complain about my stationary position and lack of understanding of what 
they were doing. I would not expect to welcomed at an athletics club.


Brazos

Laurie (Laurence)

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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon May 12 19:23:02 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:23:02 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
Message-ID: <BLU119-W5FEC53DA2952127E378F891CC0@phx.gbl>


Keith Elshaw wrote:
>>People in the ronda all-of-a-sudden found/find themselves being
>>blind-sided from bodies coming out of nowhere.

>>People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who
>>inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad
>>feelings.

Keith - That appears to be a somewhat pompous and presumptuous statement.
 
Although relatively new to Tango (3 years), I have many years of ballroom, country 
and other dance under my belt.  It is quite common in most of the world of 
dance that "spot dancers" can occupy the center without creating conflict with 
those of us in line-of-dance.  Although this may not be what you are "supposed" to 
do in tango, I have observed this work effectively in tango as well.  And dancing 
in the middle, per se, doesn't create bad feelings in me and I don't see why it 
should in others.

It sounds like you are presuming that any dancers who might be in the middle will 
dart in and out of the ronda without regard for the rest of us.  I don't believe 
that is necessarily true.  Or perhaps you are simply saying that the better and 
more experienced one becomes in tango the more one becomes intolerant of 
behavioral differences no matter how benign?

Or perhaps are you stating that any dancer in the center who never even 
comes close to the ronda is ignorant, aggressive and rude no matter why they are in
the middle of the floor.  Say a dancer is a beginner who finds himself over his
head in navigational complexities, is terrified of bumping into those in the ronda, 
and chooses to move to the center out of respect for the rest of us.  Perhaps you 
are saying that it is better for him to remain in the ronda and crash into his 
neighbors?  Perhaps all beginners should just stay home where they belong and not 
intrude on your dance?

I absolutely do not understand the antagonistic attitude that you present.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 19:43:10 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:43:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Alberto Dassieu
Message-ID: <595517.10580.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Anytme that I can find a new video on this guy, I'm going to post it.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id_IOnarj0M
   
  Lots and lots of pauses in this slooo tango..would it be ok to dance
  like this with most follows here in the US? He seems to wait and wait.
  Would that be un nerving to some follows?  
  I do believe that he both knows the music and what he wants to do..
  check out 2:50 into the dance as he begins dancing the crecendo perfectly.

       
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From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 21:06:27 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:06:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
Message-ID: <923180.37198.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Have you ever seen Tete dance in?"line of dance" How would you classify his dancing? I do not particularly care to?classify it as anything at all, but it seems that there is a tendency to imply that those who dance in the middle of the floor are not good dancers. Not necessarily so.?The only obvious thing is that they, for one reason or another, just do not follow line of dance. And that's just fine with me as long as they do not interfere with the line of dance where I like to be most of the time. 
A?few weeks ago I was asked to dance at an afternoon?milonga by someone I never saw dance before and I said sure - I just really wanted to dance. It turned out that for some readon she and I just could not fit well in the traditional, close embrace, line-of-dance sort of a dance. So, we drifted toward the middle?where we could experiment a bit without bothering anyone. From then on I had a great dance with her. I am so happy I did not feel forced to fit into a line-of-dance where we did not belong.
?===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Mon May 12 21:12:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 02:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing.  Why??
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <memo.20080513021232.3432M@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> nuevo tango is merely a "means of analysis that enables us to identify
> the movements and combinations of movements that are common in
> traditional tango, and to re-use them in ways that are not common in
> traditional tango."

I wonder if the nuevo scientists stopped to think why those ways are not 
common in traditional tango.

The traditional dance is the result of letting the music and the dancers' 
feeling for it select what works. Nuevo is the result of using what remains.

> [nuevo] is merely an extension of traditional tango, and which is danced
> by many ... with beauty, grace, and musicality.

Here's a test of the 'musicality'. Take the first two videos on

 http://eng.tango.info/videos/AndreAmari

and imagine the picture from #1 played with the music from #2.

Would you even notice the switch?

--
Chris

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 21:23:47 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:23:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Alberto Dassieu
Message-ID: <387856.56212.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com
...
> Anytme that I can find a new video on this guy, I'm going to post it.

Frankly Mario, I think that in this clip Alberto's posture and footwork are way below average.?
...??
>? Lots and lots of pauses in this slooo tango..would it be ok to dance?like this with most follows here in the US? He seems to wait and wait.
His waiting is really not waiting, as in "doing nothing." There could be lots of dancing?happening while it?seems like "nothing going on" to those watching.

> Would that be un nerving to some follows?? 

I am sure it would be to some.
At a recent Chicago mini tango festival. I had?the overall best?tanda with a woman who let me know at the very beginning with her body language that she preferred the slow and deliberate, very expressive?movements filled with loads of emotional tension. From then on it was heaven. (And of course we moved to the middle in order not to disturb?others and no, we did not dance the "nuevo" or show tango.) When the tanda was over, I told her that that was the best dance I had for the whole weekend -- she thanked me that I created the space for her to express herself in her own way. The whole thing was enormously satisfying for both of us.

Every dancer is different, hopefully.
?===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Mon May 12 21:28:17 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:28:17 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
References: <76362.37674.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018101c8b498$a09e3290$44203e43@michaelditkoff>

My dance teacher once said: "Before we can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves."

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.


Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very sensitive Tanguera.
   
  http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/



From al at sgi.com  Tue May 13 07:00:29 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:00:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango is not looking back
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080511125547.014a01d0@waxman.net>
References: <304654.42246.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080511125547.014a01d0@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <482974CD.1060606@sgi.com>

Martin Waxman wrote:
> The problem, as I see and hear it, is that the 
> "nuevo dancers" don't have a sense of musicality 

And the one kilo of lemons for the overgeneralisation of the week goes
to...

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From al at sgi.com  Tue May 13 08:10:19 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:10:19 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing.  Why??
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080512155510.01f20da8@waxman.net>
References: <BLU119-W41525929D8CA2C1ED0AA1091CC0@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080512155510.01f20da8@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <4829852B.3080901@sgi.com>

Martin Waxman wrote:
> At 03:44 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote:
>>  I'm clueless!
> 
> It's simple.

No, it's not, unless you're desperate to bin a continuum
of dance expressions in two bins just for the sake of
polarisation (and "us" versus "them" games), and somehow
ascribe virtues to one side only and vices to the other
(I'm not *entirely* sure than only nuevo dancers dare dance
against the line of dance, or that only they dance as if they
had concrete cast in both their ears).

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From irenekyho at hotmail.com  Tue May 13 09:10:14 2008
From: irenekyho at hotmail.com (Irene Ho)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:10:14 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Alberto Dassieu
Message-ID: <BAY128-W455F031228B1BA16446033AFCF0@phx.gbl>


We met Alberto Dassieu in February 2007 on the first night of our first trip we were in Buenos Aires.  We had wanted to meet him from watching a video of him dancing with Jan La Salle of New York in a performance of Milonguisimo on youtube - and we couldn't believe our luck when we met him in the doorway of Glorias Argentinas, where a special performance of Milonguisimo was going to be held that night.

Alberto has completely changed our way of dancing.  Because of him and advice from his lovely wife Paulina, I finally learned how to follow (instead of anticipating and being trapped in my own little world doing adornments that had nothing to do with the lead or the music).  My husband Man Yung has changed his posture, embrace and ability to express the music because of Alberto. Only two classes with Alberto, and finally we could dance close embrace, whereas we could only dance open or "tango salon" style before even after three years of dancing.

One thing about Alberto's videos on youtube is that there are a lot of candid shots of him dancing with students and people who are not his regular partners.  One thing that made us sit up and pay attention before we even met him is the way that he is able to lead someone who is not dancing at his level, maybe even a beginner - and make them look really good.  It takes a tremendous amount of experience and skill to do this!  

Alberto is touring Switzerland this summer.  He originally had plans to come to Canada in September, but I fear that may have fallen through.  I wish someone would realize what an incredible opportunity is being missed here and bring him to Canada!  He really is a gem - incredible dancer, incredible teacher and incredibly warm, generous and humble person.

This is the link to an interview I did with Alberto last year and some other information about our encounters with him:

http://ireneandmanyung.blogspot.com/search/label/Alberto%20Dassieu

Irene
 
_________________________________________________________________


From politas at gmail.com  Tue May 13 09:16:04 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16:04 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
In-Reply-To: <61971.64.229.162.82.1210630466.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
References: <61971.64.229.162.82.1210630466.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
Message-ID: <48299494.4010002@gmail.com>

Keith Elshaw wrote:
> People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who
> inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad
> feelings.
Some of them may just be ignorant of the particular tango dancing 
customs because they are new to Argentine Tango. I know it took some 
time for me to grasp that particular difference.

It seems a bit much to assume rudeness and aggressiveness when behaviour 
can be explained with just ignorance. Do you think that assuming the 
worst of people is the best way to adjust their behaviour?

On the other hand, if there's a large open space in the middle, perhaps 
it's worth taking the time to wonder why that is.

-- 
Myk Dowling

From aron at milonga.hu  Tue May 13 09:17:41 2008
From: aron at milonga.hu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ecsedy_=C1ron?=)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:17:41 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Bashing - why?
In-Reply-To: <61709.64.229.162.82.1210624965.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
References: <61709.64.229.162.82.1210624965.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
Message-ID: <482994F5.80403@milonga.hu>

Keith Elshaw wrote:
> "Maybe my friends Fabian, Gustavo and Chicho and some others would like to
> show some leadership to their blithe disciples"?
>
> Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own
> space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?
>
>   
Actually, they do that. I had some private lessons with Mariana Montes 
(partner of Sebastian Arce) and she was practically teaching me nothing 
else than how to dance fluently and still interesting keeping LOD and 
continuity in a path less than a chair's width, while keeping the kind 
of connection she requires.


David Thorn wrote:

"Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent and 
considerate nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I 
require for a puente. "

I cannot agree more. And also: there is a great mist in people's heads 
about the SPEED (or rather delta-v) these moves are executed. Most good 
nuevo dancers I saw (actually all Argentines in the street traffic, 
check them out) do not execute large acceleration moves (delta-v of 
their axis or mass) at a milonga, which is very typical of gringos 
(sorry, I am also a "gringo" - just trying to use a single word 
definition). Also, they do not move at speeds that are substantially 
larger than the speed of the "traffic".

The speed of many (stationary, or barely moving) moves are also 
different in their version. Among the younger generation of dancers in 
BsAs it is very typical to dance almost slow motion with only some 
rythmical steps here and there, but they definitely don't have the urge 
to march all the time.

Still about navigation: they tend to look where they move. Everyone is 
looking at the direction they move towards, and expects others to do the 
same. Obviously, this works very well, because it is impossible to bump 
into someone if you actually do not start a move before checking if you 
have space for it. Also, portenos are quite adept at moving forward in a 
crowd (check out the subte at Carlos Pellegrini): while there is little 
sense of organization (meaning: apparent chaos), they simply use 
available space on the street and on the dancefloor as well. Although it 
sounds weird that gringos don't do this, but most of them don't even 
understand what it means. On the street it means that they don't expect 
that only the other person makes evasive action just because he/she is 
"busy" travelling in a straight line, or holding a girl/boyfriend's 
hand. They look for the available space, separately and instictively. 
There is no preeminence of any behaviour, everyone is doing their best 
to achieve their own goals, which in this case is to move forward with 
the least resistance (actually Hungarians are truly bad at this, we are 
willing to put up a fight to protect an imagined "personal space" - very 
arrogant and also very irrational, the only thing you can get is bad 
nerves, enemies and wasted time). In BsAs, I never felt afraid that 
someone bumps into me even in a fully packed La Viruta...except during 
CITA, when large percentage of the people were gringos. Not that we 
don't dance well, but we are simply not used to navigating in this 
manner. This has NOTHING to do with being a nuevo or other tango dancer, 
or even being Argentine (Argentines from Mar del Plata also appeared to 
have problems with this).

Cheers,
Aron

-- 
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-36-006

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 11:04:22 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What Nuevo doesn't have..
Message-ID: <156961.98203.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Face dancing
  http://ireneandmanyung.blogspot.com/search/label/Intercourse%20Style%20Tango

       

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue May 13 11:10:12 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:10:12 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Dassieu, Dancing in the Middle, Nuevo Tango, Naveira, etc.
Message-ID: <B1A96397-2DB2-475F-87A6-22F0A7A6EECA@gmail.com>

Mario wrote:
> Anytme that I can find a new video on this guy, I'm going to post  
> it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id_IOnarj0M

Hooboy.

Mario, did you ever consider creating a blog about the videos you  
like? Or maybe just a playlist in youtube? That's what a lot of us do.

At the same time, Mario, thanks for the link. I too like to see videos  
of Alberto Dassieu.

....

Also, may I point out that here Alberto Dasssieu is dancing in the  
middle of the floor, walking backwards several steps against the line  
of dance, and doing lots of giros with sacadas. And it appears not to  
be a show but rather an afternoon milonga at Ideal (my guess).

I guess the current crop of tango taxonomists would call him a nuevo  
tango dancer.\

Which is more consonant with the ronda of social dancing, Alberto  
Dassieu above, or Gustavo Naveira below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgnjOZxVsCw


-joe


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue May 13 12:32:38 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:32:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
In-Reply-To: <48299494.4010002@gmail.com>
References: <61971.64.229.162.82.1210630466.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
	<48299494.4010002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13176a380805130932r29c4915cy951a968fd3cef893@mail.gmail.com>

At last Saturday's milonga (I'm not naming the city), I had to dance
in the middle because:

1) Absolute chaos on the floor where the majority of couples weren't
in any "traffic" lane." It almost looked like a cattle stampede.
2) Some people were dancing tango to milonga and used figures that
caused them to stop, e.g. paradas and poses.
3) Some couples for whatever reason, just weren't moving.
4) That was the SAFEST place to PROTECT my partner from high boleos.
The number ONE rule for a leader is to protect the partner.

Michael Ditkoff

A few people wrote:
> > People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who
> > inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad
> > feelings.
>
> It seems a bit much to assume rudeness and aggressiveness when behaviour
> can be explained with just ignorance. Do you think that assuming the
> worst of people is the best way to adjust their behaviour?
>
> On the other hand, if there's a large open space in the middle, perhaps
> it's worth taking the time to wonder why that is.
>

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 12:43:58 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dassieu, Dancing in the Middle, Nuevo Tango, Naveira,
	etc.
Message-ID: <807452.31288.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


"Mario, did you ever consider creating a blog about the videos you  
like? Or maybe just a playlist in youtube? That's what a lot of us do.
...At the same time, Mario, thanks for the link. I too like to see videos  
of Alberto Dassieu.
...Which is more consonant with the ronda of social dancing, Alberto  
Dassieu above, or Gustavo Naveira below?"  -  Joe G.
   
  Hi Joe, I have umpteen playlists and the video that you sent is on my "Walking" playlist
  a couple of times...yes, I like it, too....so, anything is possible, I guess.
  http://www.youtube.com/profile_play_list?user=nacotete
  What's a Tango Addict?



       

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue May 13 13:20:54 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:20:54 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]   Dassieu, Dancing in the Middle, Nuevo Tango, Naveira,
	etc.
Message-ID: <03C8AB39-D347-49F0-B8F3-A7D85C4738A8@gmail.com>

> Hi Joe, I have umpteen playlists

Whoa. I'll say you do. Sorry for having doubted you. :-)

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Tue May 13 15:17:49 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:17:49 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W5FEC53DA2952127E378F891CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W5FEC53DA2952127E378F891CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370805131217m2d759048pf7e487a758f4029@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:23 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Keith Elshaw wrote:
> > People in the ronda all-of-a-sudden found/find themselves being
> > blind-sided from bodies coming out of nowhere.
>
> > People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who
> > inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad
> > feelings.
>
> It sounds like you are presuming that any dancers who might be in the middle will
> dart in and out of the ronda without regard for the rest of us.  I don't believe
> that is necessarily true.

     Someone else besides Keith brought this up saying nuevo dancers
were so ignorant that they danced in the middle.  Me, I have the
opposite view--I'm very grateful when people who want to dance in
place and/or do a lot of big fancy "nuevo" moves confine themselves to
the middle of the floor where they are out of everyone else's way and
thus rendered relatively harmless.

     They have to stay in the middle, though--as Keith seemingly
alludes, if they dart in and out from the middle into the ronda, then
they are worse than if they never went into the middle at all.

Huck

From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue May 13 16:04:40 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:04:40 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo & milonguero
	happy together?
Message-ID: <cff24c340805131304i10305b16h86df9d2ed344baf@mail.gmail.com>

We repeatedly hear how in its evolution tango has diversified and that
we should celebrate this diversity and all forms of tango should
coexist peacefully under one big tent. Milonguero and nuevo can share
the same dance floor, maybe nuevo in the middle where there is more
space and milonguero along the outer edge. Music can be mixed, too,
with classic tango and electrotango and non-tango music all played, a
little bit of something for everyone, so that everyone can be happy.

Comments such as these usually come from nuevo dancers, not tango
milonguero dancers. Tango milonguero dancers typically prefer a
milonga where only classic tango music is played and it is not unusual
for them also to prefer the company of only other tango milonguero
dancers at a milonga, with whom they share a similar interpretation of
the music, relationship with the partner, and use of space. This
attitude is often seen as intolerant, unfriendly, and an antithesis to
tango community growth. The preference for tango milonguero and
classic tango music is seen as dogmatic and resistant to the
inevitable evolution of tango, as it is occurring in Buenos Aires
today.

Why are these tango milonguero dancers so intolerant and dogmatic?
What can be done to correct this problem?

Tango is a dance and a type of music, but it is more. Tango is a
culture. The culture of tango, within in which the dance and music
intermingle, is alive today in the milongas of Buenos Aires. Here
tango is danced in a close embrace, using small steps, closely
connected with classic tango music, the way it has been danced for
over half a century. A connection with the past does not mean tango is
some anachronism that is out of touch with the modern world. No, it IS
so much in touch with contemporary life; its persistence indicates its
continuing relevance to the lives of porten~os and obviously, to
thousands of people from outside Argentina who come to Buenos Aires to
experience this culture. This tango IS contemporary Argentine social
tango, alive today in over 100 milongas weekly in Buenos Aires. In
contrast, nuevo is an evolutionary experiment, about 15 years old, an
offshoot from the tango mainstream. Nuevo is danced in fewer than a
dozen tango events (typically called practicas) weekly in Buenos
Aires. In their relative distribution, there is an overabundance on
non-Argentines at nuevo events, and a much higher representation of
porten~os at milongas. Nuevo (and alternative music) do not
characterize tango in Buenos Aires; they represent a small fragment of
tango culture, in terms of events, locations and especially the number
of Argentine people who are part of this phenomenon.

Most importantly, in Buenos Aires contemporary Argentine social tango
and nuevo occupy separate niches. They do not occupy the same dance
floor. There is no electrotango or non-tango music played to attract
or satisfy the tastes of nuevo dancers at milongas in Buenos Aires. It
is not part of the contemporary Argentine social tango culture.

Outside Argentina, it is different. Dancers of tango milonguero, who
prefer the environment of the contemporary milonga of Buenos Aires,
find it difficult to create an atmosphere of music and contemporary
social Argentine tango dancing, ideally with some aspects of the
milonga culture (tandas, cortinas, cabeceo, ronda). Even at festivals
that focus on instruction in contemporary social Argentine tango,
nuevo dancers who do not attend workshops readily flock to milongas
and execute space consuming moves at rapid speed that do not respect
the ronda. There is no refuge from nuevo dancers who do not understand
and respect the culture of contemporary Argentine social tango.

In many places outside Argentina, respect of tango culture is seen as
dogmatic and intolerant. Failure to recognize and follow the core
characteristics of contemporary Argentine tango culture is seen as
democratic and in celebration of tango diversity.

There is nothing inherently wrong with nuevo. However, its culture is
different from the culture of contemporary Argentine social tango.
There is nothing wrong in separating them into different niches, i.e.,
separate events. Each can have its own atmosphere. Dancers can attend
these different events and respect the environment intended by the
event organizer. Just as they do in Buenos Aires. Some people may go
to both types of events, adapting their dance to the environment they
are entering. Doing this respects the unique characteristics of both
and allows each its environment to flourish. It reduces the conflict
between people who have different interpretations of tango.

Ron

From heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com  Tue May 13 17:17:57 2008
From: heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com (Heather Whitehead)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:17:57 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] MAY MADNESS in Ann Arbor!
Message-ID: <BAY137-W514DD34EB3A845B9D87D3FFCCF0@phx.gbl>


PLease join the tango SPRING FUN in Ann Arbor featuring B.A. legends -
 
Pedro "TETE" Rusconi, Silvia Ceriani, Nestor La Vitola and Enriqueta Kleinman. 
Don't miss this opportunity to be inspired and learn from the legendary, the one and only 'TETE'. Welcome the top-notch quality social dancing and teachings of Nestor La Vitola.

Come and join the spring fun with friendly dancers from Ann Arbor and all over
the country, music from our featured DJs - Ramu Pyreddy, Yulia Kriskovets, 
Tine Herreman and Ramji V. 
May Madness 2008 will be held May 16 -19, 2008. 
Please visit our webpage for more details and registration:
 
http://www.umich.edu/~umtango/events/festival-may08

- Due to catering restrictions the Club will no longer be able to provide fruit during the workshops. Please plan accordingly.
- The Event Organizers would strongly prefer that people PAY BY CHECK because this will simplify and expedite the registration process.
If you have any special circumstances please contact Heather- heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com.



or Anjali- anjalip1 at comcast.net

 



Anjali Purkayastha 
Event Organizer 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends.
http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008

From robinctara at gmail.com  Tue May 13 18:02:16 2008
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:02:16 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] October
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860805131502x77efdddbm5fc68cae01057d3@mail.gmail.com>

An associate is planning a large corporate event  to be held in Miami
in October. He is looking for a well known tango professional to hire
to teach some classes there. I'm wondering who will be in the area
during that month. If anyone has any information, please answer off
list.

Thanks,

Robin Tara

From antonst at alidas.com.au  Tue May 13 18:25:10 2008
From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:25:10 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo no longer evolutionary process?
In-Reply-To: <D96D4CAC9AEC4230B6058B65B49B8A76@stanco.local>
Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF57F@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

I seem to detect a shift of opinion by Nuevo exponents during the past
few months. From a position of Nuevo being an evolutionary result, to it
being a style of Tango. 
To me an entirely reasonable position. However on the question of the
two co-existing on the same floor ... whilst I personally am not in
favour, I guess everyone has the right to dance Tango as they see fit,
unless they contravene local rules or custom.

Anton


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 18:48:46 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] So, Nancy....How is it going??
Message-ID: <627067.17265.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Say Nancy, You've been in Tango Heaven now for more than a week..
  Is it everything you ever dreamed of ?? Is the Portenio embrace to die for ??
  Do you want to stay there or are you a little homesick?
  Have you discovered something new that you want to share??
  Does it seem that you are spending most of your time;
  1. eating 2. shopping 3. dancing 4 .sleeping 5. in taxi's 6. shopping?
   

       

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 19:08:35 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] So, Nancy....How is it going??
In-Reply-To: <627067.17265.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <113187.19696.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




--- On Tue, 5/13/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

 Say Nancy, You've been in Tango Heaven now for more than
> a week..
>   Is it everything you ever dreamed of ?? 

This is my tenth visit so it was what I expected.

Is the Portenio
> embrace to die for ??

Always, but as I noted some months earlier, it is also everything leading up to the embrace that makes it so wonderful.


>   Do you want to stay there or are you a little homesick?

Not homesick.  Happy to be here for seven weeks.


>   Have you discovered something new that you want to
> share??

Made some lovely new friends and discovered some great new restaurants.  Sadly, some of the old milongueros are no longer in the milongas and the general level of dancing is down with many more poor dancers taking up space. I see young men acting as taxi dancers who couldn't hack it in an intermediate class in the US.


>   Does it seem that you are spending most of your time;
>   1. eating 2. shopping 3. dancing 4 .sleeping 5. in
> taxi's 6. shopping?


  Only two pairs of shoes, so far.  Having more time, the urgency to dance every day, every minute,  is gone.  I am savoring the city and the beautiful weather and my friends on and off the dance floor.  

  The cab driver sang "Mi Buenos Aires Querido' all the way home last night.  Only in Baires!


      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue May 13 21:23:16 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:23:16 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Message-ID: <003001c8b561$176a8090$44203e43@michaelditkoff>

From: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.


My dance teacher once said: "Before we can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves."

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.


Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very sensitive Tanguera.
   
  http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/



From nina at earthnet.net  Tue May 13 21:29:34 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:29:34 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
In-Reply-To: <003001c8b561$176a8090$44203e43@michaelditkoff>
References: <003001c8b561$176a8090$44203e43@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080513192609.01b49930@earthnet.net>

Sometimes I would prefer that some dancers embrace themselves instead of me! :)

NIna




At 07:23 PM 5/13/2008, Michael wrote:
>From: "Michael" <tangomaniac at cavtel.net>
>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
>
>
>My dance teacher once said: "Before we can embrace others, we have 
>to be able to embrace ourselves."
>
>Michael
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
>
>
>Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very 
>sensitive Tanguera.
>
>   http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tangozen at hotmail.com  Wed May 14 01:13:57 2008
From: tangozen at hotmail.com (Tango Zen: Dance Here Now)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 01:13:57 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Article on TangoZen in Pagina/12 in BA, Sunday, May 11th
Message-ID: <BAY109-W543DEED4FB51AD1A8D6AE9CDCE0@phx.gbl>


Friends,
A little more than a month has passed since I moved to Buenos Aires.  

As you can imagine, Buenos Aires is quite a dynamic city, where many things, especially totally unexpected, can happen.  For example as you must have read in newspapers, the whole city was covered with smog  a few weeks ago because farmers in the neighboring areas burned soybeans for days.  How could it be possible? Can you imagine what it was like being in the middle of the city? Not quite pleasant.

Here is another unexpected event. Pagina/12, the 3rd largest newspaper in Buenos Aires, published a whole page article on TangoZen the last Sunday, May 11th.  You can read it here:
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/suplementos/radar/9-4612-2008-05-13.htm

If you?re interested in TangoZen workshop and classes and if you happen to be in Buenos Aires, here is your oppourinity to have the first-hand experience of TangoZen, starting this Saturday, May 17th: http://www.tangozen.com/ba.html

See you in Buenos Aires.


Chan
Tango Zen House
http://www.TangoZen.com
tangozen at hotmail.com



=======================================

TangoZen is tango milonguero.  TangoZen is about learning to appreciate traditional tango through disciplines of Zen, which is synonymous to simplicity and clarity of body and mind. 
http://www.TangoZen.com


Also please visit TangoZen blog:
http://www.TangoZen.TypePad.com





From TangoFantasy at aol.com  Wed May 14 01:30:30 2008
From: TangoFantasy at aol.com (TangoFantasy@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 01:30:30 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Female Roommate needed
Message-ID: <c72.30f3ff74.355bd2f6@aol.com>

 
 
Hello List:
 
A female roommate is needed for a participant to share a nice room at  the 
Deauville Beach Resort for the Tango Fantasy Festival on Miami Beach, May 22  
through May 26.
 
Please contact me at:  (305) 275-2802  or send me an e-mail, 
_tangofantasy at aol.com_ (mailto:tangofantasy at aol.com)  
Thanks,
 
Lydia





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed May 14 11:18:21 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:18:21 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango trivia: Robert Rauschenberg and La Boca
Message-ID: <c56.34e7b9f2.355c5cbd@aol.com>

The American artist Robert Rauschenberg died Monday.   He was multifaceted 
and worked in many media, including photography, using his own photographs in 
his work, which ranged from set designs for contemporary dance to paintings and 
prints. He was not known for dancing tango but he obviously visited Buenos 
Aires.   On the front page of the Arts section of the New York Times this morning 
(Wed. 5/14) is his set design for one of Merce Cunningham's pieces, 
"Interscape."   The vivid cubistic area in the lower right corner of the backdrop will 
be familiar to most of us who dance tango...it is the colorful painted tin 
facades of La Boca.

Cheers,
Charles


**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on 
family favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 11:55:15 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango trivia: Robert Rauschenberg and La Boca
In-Reply-To: <c56.34e7b9f2.355c5cbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <267793.73376.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is a link to the page Charles mentions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/arts/dance/14coll.html?ref=arts


--- On Wed, 5/14/08, Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com> wrote:

> From: Crrtango at aol.com <Crrtango at aol.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Tango trivia: Robert Rauschenberg and La Boca
> To: TANGO-L at mit.edu
> Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 11:18 AM
> The American artist Robert Rauschenberg died Monday.   He
> was multifaceted 
> and worked in many media, including photography, using his
> own photographs in 
> his work, which ranged from set designs for contemporary
> dance to paintings and 
> prints. He was not known for dancing tango but he obviously
> visited Buenos 
> Aires.   On the front page of the Arts section of the New
> York Times this morning 
> (Wed. 5/14) is his set design for one of Merce
> Cunningham's pieces, 
> "Interscape."   The vivid cubistic area in the
> lower right corner of the backdrop will 
> be familiar to most of us who dance tango...it is the
> colorful painted tin 
> facades of La Boca.
> 
> Cheers,
> Charles
> 
> 
> **************
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on 
> family favorites at AOL Food.
>       
> (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May 14 13:27:02 2008
From: johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk (johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:27:02 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguerohappy together?
Message-ID: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>

There is a lot of sense in what Ron says. After all, you never see 
anyone dancing ballroom tango at a milonga. At least I never have. 
Perhaps it is time to rename nueveo "Argentine Ballroom Tango" to go 
alongside International Ballroom and American Ballroom, and to have 
special events devoted to it. Milonguero could be called "Classical 
Argentine Tango", on the lines of "classical ballet". Then everybody 
would know what to expect. 

John Ward
Bristol, UK



_______________________________
Free games from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play


From nina at earthnet.net  Wed May 14 14:22:06 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:22:06 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo
	&	milonguerohappy together?
In-Reply-To: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
References: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
Message-ID: <20080514122206.m5zwtbav9c4g48ow@webmail.earthnet.net>

Good point, John.  But Ballroom is actually a well-defined discipline  
of dance with incredibly rigorous training.

How about calling "nuevo" Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or  
Wanna-be-tango?  The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality  
(apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious  
face and an attitude of self-importance.  All of these conditions must  
be present in order to meet the criteria.

This, of course, would be for the purpose of diagnosis by others.  The  
problem with dancers that pursue fake tango is that THEY ACTUALLY LIKE  
THE WAY THEY DANCE.  Until that changes, nothing else will.

Best,

Nina



Quoting "johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk" <johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk>:

> There is a lot of sense in what Ron says. After all, you never see
> anyone dancing ballroom tango at a milonga. At least I never have.
> Perhaps it is time to rename nueveo "Argentine Ballroom Tango" to go
> alongside International Ballroom and American Ballroom, and to have
> special events devoted to it. Milonguero could be called "Classical
> Argentine Tango", on the lines of "classical ballet". Then everybody
> would know what to expect.
>
> John Ward
> Bristol, UK
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Free games from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed May 14 14:43:41 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:43:41 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Abel Bedrune
Message-ID: <cf5.2b29d64e.355c8cdd@aol.com>

Does anyone know about the composer and orchestra leader, Abel Bedrune 
(1904-67)? What was his music like? etc? Any recordings?

cheers,
Charles


**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on 
family favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

From al at sgi.com  Wed May 14 15:14:54 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:14:54 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguerohappy together?
In-Reply-To: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
References: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
Message-ID: <482B3A2E.2020305@sgi.com>

johnofbristol at tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> There is a lot of sense in what Ron says. After all, you never see 
> anyone dancing ballroom tango at a milonga. At least I never have. 
> Perhaps it is time to rename nueveo "Argentine Ballroom Tango" 

I don't think anyone dancing Argentine tango (be it "Nuevo", whatever
the meaning du jour is) would be happy with that label, though.

Just as little as some more traditional tango dancers
would like "Grandpa's Argentine tango for corpses" as
a name for their dance, and for the same valid reasons.

Besides, as I said, there's a continuum of dance expressions in tango,
which is what makes much of its charm (every advanced couple actually
distills its own style). To try to bin the styles and label them is
as cruel to tango as is piercing butterflies with a needle
and sticking them in a frame with a label.


-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From al at sgi.com  Wed May 14 15:19:23 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:19:23 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent:
 Nuevo	&	milonguerohappy together?
In-Reply-To: <20080514122206.m5zwtbav9c4g48ow@webmail.earthnet.net>
References: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
	<20080514122206.m5zwtbav9c4g48ow@webmail.earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <482B3B3B.1030307@sgi.com>

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> How about calling "nuevo" Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or  
> Wanna-be-tango?  The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality  
> (apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious  
> face and an attitude of self-importance.  All of these conditions must  
> be present in order to meet the criteria.
> 
Uhm - that's quite a drastic redefinition of "Nuevo" (and would
actually apply to many rabid foaming-at-the-mouth nuevo haters with
too little introspection, too, as a matter of fact).

It's my impression that "fake tango" can be danced (just as badly)
in many different styles.

I just call tend to call bad tango "bad tango".

And in fact, not even a close embrace can make me think of bad tango
as good, even though the couple would just fail at *one* of your
criteria for fake tango.

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From nina at earthnet.net  Wed May 14 15:55:16 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:55:16 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo
	&	milonguerohappy together?
In-Reply-To: <482B3B3B.1030307@sgi.com>
References: <14694376.1210786022075.JavaMail.root@ps28>
	<20080514122206.m5zwtbav9c4g48ow@webmail.earthnet.net>
	<482B3B3B.1030307@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <20080514135516.pkslvr2us8og0088@webmail.earthnet.net>

The problem is that "Tango Nuevo" is essentially a lie.  I speak as a  
former devoted member of that club.

It is not "nuevo" because there is nothing new. It was a disappointing  
discovery after I had danced the glorious "nuevo" moves at some  
practica in and then danced with an old gentlemen at Sunderalnd that  
did as a matter of course one of the moves we were so pround of and  
regarded as one of the "nuevo" moves.

It is also not "tango" because it ignores some of the basic principles  
of the dance called Argentine Tango.  I don't mean "rejects".  I do  
mean "ignores", as if those principles did not exist and/or had meaning.

But... people are free to engage in self-deception.  And... I am free  
to entertain myself by appreciating how cute it is when new dancers  
get excited about silly little things :)

It is like saying "There is a NEW tango that is being created, and,  
Suprise!, we are the innovators!"

When little kids draw some silly picture and smear colors all over and  
then present it as if it was the treasure of the world, all proud of  
themselves, we are supposed to say "Great drawing!  You are so  
talented!"  And then give them a hug and a kiss and send them off to  
do more of the same, which they cheerfully and energetically do.   
Somehow, we know that this will pass.

I need to stop thinking that "nuevo" fans are serious and mature  
dancers.  I need to remember to say "you are great!  this is the best  
dancing I have ever seen!" and hope that they will run off and do  
something... eventually.

Nina







Quoting Alexis Cousein <al at sgi.com>:

> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>> How about calling "nuevo" Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or
>> Wanna-be-tango?  The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality
>> (apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious
>> face and an attitude of self-importance.  All of these conditions must
>> be present in order to meet the criteria.
>>
> Uhm - that's quite a drastic redefinition of "Nuevo" (and would
> actually apply to many rabid foaming-at-the-mouth nuevo haters with
> too little introspection, too, as a matter of fact).
>
> It's my impression that "fake tango" can be danced (just as badly)
> in many different styles.
>
> I just call tend to call bad tango "bad tango".
>
> And in fact, not even a close embrace can make me think of bad tango
> as good, even though the couple would just fail at *one* of your
> criteria for fake tango.
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
> Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
> --
> <If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From al at sgi.com  Wed May 14 18:59:28 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 00:59:28 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguero happy together?
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340805131304i10305b16h86df9d2ed344baf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340805131304i10305b16h86df9d2ed344baf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482B6ED0.5050002@sgi.com>

Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
> There is nothing wrong in separating them into different niches, i.e.,
> separate events. Each can have its own atmosphere. Dancers can attend
> these different events and respect the environment intended by the
> event organizer. 

There's a word for that philosophy (one derived from a descendent of my
native language): apartheid.

I don't dispute the fact that you can organise events that will naturally
attract a different audience than others. That is quite inevitable and
need not even be forced - it's something that grows organically as long
as the local community is alive and kicking (and, best of all, it needn't
even cause sectarian attitudes).

But what you're suggesting should be done conjures up other thoughts, though,
that of *forced* segregation, where an "authority" would once and for all
decide where someone "belongs".

I hate to be pigeon-holed. I adapt to circumstances and the mood quite well
(either by adaptation or if necessary by voting with my feet),
thank you, and don't need someone to police me.

I've even been "policed" at *my own* milongas by people who insisted
that '50s d'Arienzo was infected and that I should stick to *instrumental*
music (God forbid you'd have to listen to a singer who makes the patterns
on which you weave your dance more rich from time to time) performed in
the '20s (the only *real* tango), so I'm not just talking about
hypothetical dangers of that general attitude.

I'm sure saying all of that will mark me as a despicable "nuevo" to
the guardians of several orthodoxies, even though they've never seen
me dance. Ah well.

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 16:59:55 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Overly technical?
Message-ID: <525910.53380.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Maybe this approach is using the wrong side of the brain...do you think?
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOcBCmRaTr4

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 19:01:45 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 16:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Two Milongas to giggle to..
Message-ID: <285452.44038.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Two humorous and inventive Milonga demos..enjoy.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_B2igUJIhM
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfX8jbPilws

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 19:11:27 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 16:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Move over Flaco Danny..
Message-ID: <233783.54379.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK,  last one...another Milonga demo..well rehearsed,  true but...
  watch Maria's dress and how it moves....there's so much creative stuff
  in this Milonga and it still holds up the standard of 'Beauty' throughout..
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=103PUuMB8Wo&feature=related

       

From melvillefox at aol.com  Wed May 14 00:07:53 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 00:07:53 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguero happy together?
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340805131304i10305b16h86df9d2ed344baf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cff24c340805131304i10305b16h86df9d2ed344baf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA838F37B7F014-1794-369E@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----

We repeatedly hear how in its evolution tango has diversified and that
we should celebrate this diversity and all forms of tango should
coexist peacefully under one big tent. Milonguero and nuevo can share
the same dance floor, maybe nuevo in the middle where there is more
space and milonguero along the outer edge. Music can be mixed, too,
with classic tango and electrotango and non-tango music all played, a
little bit of something for everyone, so that everyone can be happy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------

The way I see it, mixing tango milonguero and nuevo at a milonga is 
like letting a fox (not this one) into the chicken coop.

Nuevo may have evolved from tango, but it has diverged to the point 
where a child would say, "Dad, that can't be tango. That's not the way 
Tio Alfredo dances it."

Nuevo just hangs around tango to prey off its base. "There's a milonga. 
Let's invade it and show off. We can attract some tango students. If 
they're new enough to tango, they won't know the difference. Besides, 
it's more like the 'Dancing with the Stars' tango they saw on 
television."

So, it's a good idea for nuevo to officially declare itself a new 
dance, no longer tango.

Let it live on it's own merits and not prey on tango.

Mel Fox


From melvillefox at aol.com  Fri May 16 09:53:19 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:53:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguero happy together?
In-Reply-To: <50526.1210920044@tangohk.com>
References: <50526.1210920044@tangohk.com>
Message-ID: <8CA8573547030C1-4F8-26@webmail-da04.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith <keith at tangohk.com>

On Wed May 14 12:07 , melvillefox at aol.com sent:

>Nuevo just hangs around tango to prey off its base. "There's a 
milonga.
>Let's invade it and show off. We can attract some tango students. >

Sorry Mel, but you sound a little paranoid there :-). Are you really so
insecure with your style of tango that you think nuevo dancers will
come and attract students away?

Why don't you see it as an opportunity to attract the nuevo dancers
to your style of tango?

Keith, HK

-------------------------------------------------

Keith,

You missed the point. Nuevo isn't social tango. It doesn't belong at a 
milonga. Newcomers to tango don't understand that. Many of them come to 
tango because of what they've seen on 'Dancing with the Stars', which 
isn't real tango either, but nuevo looks like 'Dancing with the Stars' 
more than social tango does.

One could also argue that we shouldn't care if people play electronic 
music passed off as tango at milongas. This isn't tango music either, 
but it connects with newcomers because it is similar to music they are 
familiar with.

Newcomers don't know what tango is and what it isn't. It takes time to 
understand what tango is as a dance ans a type of music. Giving free 
reign to nuevo dancers and electronic music sends the message that 
"This is tango. it is prefectly OK". Sitting by silently and letting 
this happen makes you a party to this misrepresentation of tango. No 
wonder there is so much of the false product circulating out there in 
the so-called 'tango world'.

Mel





From robinctara at gmail.com  Fri May 16 12:10:38 2008
From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 13:10:38 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Tango_Porte=F1o?=
Message-ID: <9e1cc4860805160910k4f9646e7q5799c3f5cde09f13@mail.gmail.com>

Tango Porte?o

>From the moment we entered the beautiful theater next door to the
Teatro Colon last night, we felt that we were in for an evening like
no other we had experienced in Buenos Aires. Two friends and I had
decided to spring for the expensive (by Argentine standards) tickets
for dinner and a tango show. Two of us have been involved with the
world of Argentine tango for more than a dozen years and we've seen
all the big shows -  Tango Argentino, Tango por Dos and Forever Tango,
to name a few. Ordinarily, we don't go to Tango shows in Buenos Aires
any more, because we feel most of them are geared to tourists and we
consider Buenos Aires our second home. Besides, as I said, we've seen
a lot of shows.

However, two good friends from New York had seen this show and
convinced us that it was worth the price of admission. Also, I was
leaving after a lengthy stay in BA and wanted to do something special
to treat myself before I left.

Entering the grand lobby, we were greeted by handsome young men and
beautiful young women dressed in formal attire. The girls wore jaunty,
miniature grey top hats, perched at a risqu? angle and sleek grey
tuxedos. Two grand murals portrayed famous personages of tango and a
scene from La Confiteria Ideal. The theater itself was sheer elegance
with art deco columns, soft lighting and tables set with crystal and
linen.

We didn't expect much in the way of fine dining but were pleasantly
surprised to be offered a small but excellent selection of entradas
and main courses. Wines poured steadily throughout the meal and we
thoroughly enjoyed each dish that was presented.

We commented that if we were going to a show in New York, we would
have paid more for the tickets to the show and not have had a
delicious dinner along with it. We were already more than satisfied
with the value received. But when the lights dimmed and the curtains
opened, we understood that the evening held a lot more surprises for
us.

Just in case you haven't realized it already, this is a rave review.

The dancing was spectacular show tango. The orchestra was out of this
world. The staging and scenery spectacular and the costumes original.
For me, the highlight of the show was when Roxana Fontan stepped onto
the stage in a shimmering nude gown to sing "Malena". She stood alone
and sang without accompaniment. But she did more than just sing, she
enchanted everyone. I expected the audience to demand an encore, but
how could any human being repeat such a magical performance?

The six young couples who danced deserve kudos for their lightness and
acrobatics. They flew, they glided they soared. We were delighted to
see Nito and Elba when they appeared, looking ever so elegant and
dancing like only a couple who have danced together for years can. The
audience especially enjoyed the young milonguero who thrilled them
with his rapid fire milonga and playful leaps. The woman who danced
with a "mystery" partner (don't want to give away any secrets) had us
rolling in the aisles.

My favorite dance number was set in the boudoir. Dressed in a satin
peignoir, a woman waits for her lover on a red velvet chaise. She is
barefoot and beautiful. It was one of the most sensual tangos I've
ever seen. We had goosebumps.

The orchestra, on a raised platform above the dancers, was lead by a
tall blonde violinist dressed in cascades of silver. The music wowed
everyone with its fabulous arrangements of familiar tangos and
performances both fresh and powerful. Their tribute to Astor Piazzola
was thrilling and the large-scale projections enhanced the experience.

Yes it was a splurge for us. We spent about U$D 90 each and had an
exquisite evening including a final glass of champagne and a selection
of desserts.

I recommend it if you're going to be in Buenos Aires.

By the way, I'd love to give credit where it is due, but, for some
reason, we never got a program.


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri May 16 18:49:58 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 16:49:58 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Thank you for the good times.
Message-ID: <BLU119-W8B6D0F6F4540FF03003CC91C80@phx.gbl>


I would like to thank the members of Tango-L for an entertaining few months reverifying what is commonly attributed to Henry Kissinger, but is perhaps more properly referred to as ?Sayre?s Law?:  In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue.

Since 'there is only one [tango], and none other before [it]', the acceptable range of discussion on this list would appear to be quite limited, and not particularly useful were I interested in expanding my knowledge of dance (note that I didn't say "tango") to include any aspect of the world of fake tango.  It is also quite clear that tango, having been defined by a set of dancers in BaAs quite some time ago, must remain culturally pure and uncontaminated by other times, other places, other dances, and, more generally, by the hoi polloi.  

It is also good to know that when the level of discourse drops to serious name calling, it is conducted off-list (I hadn't realized that I was a sh|thead until fairly recently, but I can go with that.)

With hopes that I never have the misfortune to encounter the level of intolerance shown on this list in my real life,

This is D. David Thorn signing out.

_________________________________________________________________
Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount

From duendedetango at mac.com  Fri May 16 22:46:54 2008
From: duendedetango at mac.com (duendedetango)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 19:46:54 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Thank you for the good times.
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W8B6D0F6F4540FF03003CC91C80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W8B6D0F6F4540FF03003CC91C80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C6D79032-D8E5-4FBD-87B4-19734B03E780@mac.com>

I have just ignored the inane conversations that occur with all too  
much frequency. THere is just one world, and this is all we have, so I  
try to make the best of it.

D Zarlenga, Ph.D.
>
> I would like to thank the members of Tango-L for an entertaining few  
> months reverifying what is commonly attributed to Henry Kissinger,  
> but is perhaps more properly referred to as ?Sayre?s Law?:  In any  
> dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the  
> value of the stakes at issue.
>
> Since 'there is only one [tango], and none other before [it]', the  
> acceptable range of discussion on this list would appear to be quite  
> limited, and not particularly useful were I interested in expanding  
> my knowledge of dance (note that I didn't say "tango") to include  
> any aspect of the world of fake tango.  It is also quite clear that  
> tango, having been defined by a set of dancers in BaAs quite some  
> time ago, must remain culturally pure and uncontaminated by other  
> times, other places, other dances, and, more generally, by the hoi  
> polloi.
>
> It is also good to know that when the level of discourse drops to  
> serious name calling, it is conducted off-list (I hadn't realized  
> that I was a sh|thead until fairly recently, but I can go with that.)
>
> With hopes that I never have the misfortune to encounter the level  
> of intolerance shown on this list in my real life,
>
> This is D. David Thorn signing out.



From desdelasnubes at web.de  Sat May 17 04:59:58 2008
From: desdelasnubes at web.de (desdelasnubes@web.de)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:59:58 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Roberto Di Chiara
Message-ID: <627289598@web.de>


I have received a message by a friend informing that Roberto di Chiara passed away on May 15th in Buenos Aires.
The cable channel  where he was working (C5N) is going to air an homage to Roberto Di Chiara in the show he was producing at the time of his death. 

 http://www.infobae.com/c5n/index.html

http://www.robertodichiara.com/


http://www.clarin.com/diario/2002/01/08/s-334612.htm



_______________________________________________________________________
Jetzt neu! Sch?tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 30 Tage
kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220



From al at sgi.com  Sun May 18 19:57:43 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 01:57:43 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo &
 milonguero happy together?
In-Reply-To: <8CA8573547030C1-4F8-26@webmail-da04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <50526.1210920044@tangohk.com>
	<8CA8573547030C1-4F8-26@webmail-da04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4830C277.1090405@sgi.com>

melvillefox at aol.com wrote:
> Sorry Mel, but you sound a little paranoid there :-).

He isn't, of course.

Unfortunately for humanity, building a "Feindbild" for a group of
people ("them") has been a tried and tested mechanism to increase
social cohesion in groups of entirely normal (i.e. non pathological,
thus not paranoid) people.

Of course "they" are out to get you. If "they" weren't, they'd be "us".
It's only when you think "we" are out to get you that you're paranoid.

Here's a machine translation of the German wiki page for "Feindbild".

Of course, any resemblances with anything discussed on tango-l is surely
coincidental.

--
The "enemy image" shared by the people in a group (own group) is a
widespread negative notion of an outgroup. The assessment of the
outgroup is based to a greater or lesser extent on prejudice. An
"enemy image" is also how the people in a certain socio-cultural
context are pictured by another group of people that are strongly
aware of their separate identity. This negative image is not
checked by rational judgement and is in most cases obtained
outside reality.

The image serves mainly to the psycho-social stabilization and
the group cohesion of the own group (see also "Othering").

Enemy images can occur naturally  - for example, often where
strong social inequalities prevail. Often they are used
deliberately and purposefully by propaganda.

In most cases, already existing prejudices against the
outgroup are used to conceal to a group or individual
the actual reasons behind a real or perceived unfavourable
situation, and to channel the aggression caused by
frustration towards a clearly defined target.

The social psychology describes this process as "scapegoating".
The philosopher and cultural anthropologist Ren? Girard sees
this mechanism as a central pillar of his mimetic social theory.

Especially before and during armed conflicts, the leaders of a state 
deliberately and systematically instill enemy images into the state's
population, to convince it of the correctness of the war and the
wickedness of the enemy.


-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 09:46:12 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Two Milongas to giggle to..
Message-ID: <849357.96718.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hello Mario and all the others!

Thanks a lot for sharing our videos with all the group, I'm glad you like
them, for we much enjoy dancing to those tunes.

The only thing I have to tell you is that there's no rehearsal at all in any
of our videos. We are Tango Sal?n dancers, and one of the pillar concepts of
this style is the Improvisation. So, everything you see there just comes out
with the feeling of the moment, is totally spontaneous. Actually, we chose
the music we're going to dance only a couple of hours before the demo, or
maybe just minutes before dancing, and that's one of the things we love the
most, just going to the dance floor and enjoying the dance the way we feel
it right there, without any pre-established patterns or sequences, or
ornaments.

Anyway, thanks again for this credit you're giving to us.  

Big hugs to everybody.

Mar?a Olivera
www.tangosalon.com.ar
Us in YouTube: http://es.youtube.com/user/mariamilonga

 Move over Flaco Danny..

OK,  last one...another Milonga demo..well rehearsed,  true but...
  watch Maria's dress and how it moves....there's so much creative stuff
  in this Milonga and it still holds up the standard of 'Beauty'
throughout..
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=103PUuMB8Wo&feature=related





      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 14:37:46 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Zotto y Ermocida...dance slooooo
Message-ID: <158874.21823.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Osvaldo Zotto THE ultimate dance athelete
  shows here why slo Tango is dificil....either practice 5 hours a day or
  somehow have immense confidence but it probably takes both to do this
  classical ballet, only on the highest level, can equal this..
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SVmS11XNUGA
   
  (I hope this link works..it has mx. in it somehow)
   
   

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 14:49:55 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:49:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..A fast Tango calls for fast dancing
Message-ID: <22786.30538.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A very fast tango, almost Milonga speed..
  (hey, I'm new at this..so, correct me if I'm wrong)
  Here the lead seems preoccupied with doing the 'steps' right
  The spirit of the music is sacrificed..
   Lesson: If he can't make 'steps' work, why even try it?
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=1oZyPSOSgNk
   
   

       

From keith at totango.net  Tue May 20 15:24:01 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Zotto y Ermocida...dance slooooo
Message-ID: <61271.69.159.125.217.1211311441.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>

Gavito was, perhaps, the first in recent times to really slow down,
intensely freeze, time and be anti-flash/fast. He raised eyebrows. Maybe
he over-did it as time went by. But, it is certainly an approach that is a
good counter-balance to the frantic show style that inevitably gets copied
as "tango."

I first saw Osvaldo and Lorena do this their way about 5 years ago.

I don't know if it takes an educated eye to fully appreciate what is going
on. Maybe.

I think it is brave, beautiful, lovely.

I thank the big stars who do this. It shows so much about tango that the
flash doesn't convey. And I hope they have a big influence.

In a way, it integrates performance discipline with intimate partner
social dancing. For that, I cheer.

Osvaldo and Lorena have been considering whether or not they are at a
crossroads.

They began together at the Miami Tango Fantasy. They will be there one
more time at least this year. It seems they are feeling it is important
for them to do this this year.

I sense they are right.

An opportunity to seriously consider.

Keith

ToTANGO.net




From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 15:33:26 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 12:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Ozvaldo y Lorena
Message-ID: <392324.65613.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Although, this was shot with an underwater camera
  it still gives a marvelous feel for the movement of the dance.
  Dancing tango in a white T shirt can be another dimension..
  not quite a T shirt but the view from the adjacent aquarium makes 
  it seem so..
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-Lve-2CQo&feature=related

       

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Tue May 20 15:36:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 20:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] ..A fast Tango calls for fast dancing
In-Reply-To: <22786.30538.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080520203656.2452S@HIDEchrisjj.com>

>    Lesson: If he can't make 'steps' work, why even try it?
>    
>   http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=1oZyPSOSgNk

Is this the youtube problem again? The dance and music appear to be out of 
sync... by about 2m48s ;)

--
Chris

From keith at totango.net  Tue May 20 16:18:14 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:18:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Osvaldo y Lorena
Message-ID: <61328.69.159.125.217.1211314694.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>

Oh, dear.

Just received word that Osvaldo and Lorena have been robbed of their
documents. They've been on media in BA asking for their return (there was
no money in the bag), but to no avail.

They were to be in Miami in 2 days for the Festival. Now, that's
impossible. What a shame.

Roberto Reis and Vanessa Fatauros will sub at the Miami Tango Fantasy.






From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue May 20 17:10:36 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:10:36 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Zotto y Ermocida...dance slooooo
References: <158874.21823.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AA80F9EEEE9B4170AC5DC0A5EF420754@michaelditkoff>

Reminds me of my teacher saying "Wait for the women." I remember an exercise he gave in class. Everybody had two squares. You could go forward but never backward. The objective was to see who could use space efficiently. (I ran out of space long before the tango was over.) Osvaldo and Lorena never looked in a hurry nor tried to cover every inch of the floor.

Michael
Leaving for a cruise Friday, where I'm sure there's no AT. Thank goodness it's only 7 days.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mario" <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Zotto y Ermocida...dance slooooo


Osvaldo Zotto THE ultimate dance athelete  shows here why slo Tango is dificil....either practice 5 hours a day or
  somehow have immense confidence but it probably takes both to do this  classical ballet, only on the highest level, can equal this..
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SVmS11XNUGA
   



From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed May 21 08:27:07 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone,  isn't enough..
Message-ID: <419851.67071.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ok, I'm finally back in Philly town where I can get some decent
  Abrazo Milonguero instruction..what a relief!...Anyway, after about
  20 minutes of just looking at the other dancers dance and experiencing
  depression from seeing their obvious developement over the past 6 months,
  I finally walked onto the floor and began dancing with a follow who had 
  promised to help me try to catch up...
  Well, to make a long story short, I had a great experience at Sridhar's 
  practica last night...he took the time to dance with me and to show me
  the fine points of the ocho cortado...and that's when I saw what was missing
  from my YouTube diet. ....all of the fine points that one just cannot see by 
   looking only..one has to be inside of the movement and experience the;
    momentum, timing, speed, etc, etc.....ugh and wow!..
     I don't want to knock YouTube..it was all that I had..it was that or take
     open embrace classes where the follow simply back leads me thru all the
     movements.. what good is that?? not much.
   Anyway, the one good thing about YouTube study is that; Yes, I could watch
   my favorite dancers (last nite) and dissect each move from the one preceeding
    ...I could see the weight change, walk to the cross, defeat to  the ocho
    cortado, etc, etc....and now I can add that the reason that the movement looked
     so smooth is that there were umpteen little momentum, timing and rhythm points
      that were masterfully attended to....egads, my work is cut out for me.

       

From jackie.wong at adelphia.net  Wed May 21 09:25:57 2008
From: jackie.wong at adelphia.net (jackie ling wong)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:25:57 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] tango in new jersey
Message-ID: <FF32760C-2063-4F64-A1B6-1233F07B1070@adelphia.net>

hey,
i'm going to long beach island, near toms river, new jersey.  does  
anyone know any tango in the area?  i'll be there from may 24th - 30th.
jackie
www.tangopulse.net

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Wed May 21 16:04:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone,  isn't enough..
In-Reply-To: <419851.67071.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080521210459.3724d@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Anyway, the one good thing about YouTube study is that; Yes, I could 
> watch my favorite dancers (last nite) and dissect each move from the one 
> preceeding ...I could see the weight change, walk to the cross, defeat
> to the ocho cortado, etc, etc....

Mario, it sounds like you're nearing the level where one realises this is 
not "one good thing".

It's zero good thing.

--
Chris

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed May 21 18:56:29 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone, isn't enough.
Message-ID: <789713.10462.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's zero good thing. -Chris UK
   
  I respectfully disagree..before YouTube, I didn't know what a giro left was...really was.
  Now, any moves that I see, I can name...why is that good? ..easy, when I see a dancer
  whose style I'd like to emulate..the bag of tricks is right there on YouTube..not that that
  makes it easy, it's just that; OK, maybe if I learn these five movements, I can have as 
  much fun as he is.. it's a start.


       

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Wed May 21 19:25:00 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 08:25:00 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone, isn't enough.
In-Reply-To: <789713.10462.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <789713.10462.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7C309D471696481A887E6002BEA309C4@homePC>

So, if you want a bargain on a dance teacher (mini-format, almost zero cost) 
, don't be surprised if you end up with a bargain on dance technique too. 
Now, all you have to do, is find a partner to match that cheap style and you 
are all set...



> It's zero good thing. -Chris UK
>
>  I respectfully disagree..before YouTube, I didn't know what a giro left 
> was...really was.
>  Now, any moves that I see, I can name...why is that good? ..easy, when I 
> see a dancer
>  whose style I'd like to emulate..the bag of tricks is right there on 
> YouTube..not that that
>  makes it easy, it's just that; OK, maybe if I learn these five movements, 
> I can have as
>  much fun as he is.. it's a start.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 


From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed May 21 19:53:22 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone, isn't enough.
Message-ID: <210079.75464.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com
...
> when I see a dancer whose style I'd like to emulate..the bag of tricks is right there on YouTube..not that that?makes it easy, it's just that; OK, maybe if I learn these five movements, I can have as?much fun as he is.. it's a start.

And herein lies the trick, Mario. You will really start dancing only when you discover your own style.?Eventually, your own body will tell you what it is capable of doing. Not everything you see (on YouTube or elsewhere) is appropriate for you (and any particular partner you may be dancing with). Do you think that those dancers you see on YouTube, if they are any good, actually emulate anyone? I don't think so. 
To evolve into a?good dancer, focus on basic technique (walk/steps, posture/balance, embrace, connection,?and musicality) and not on any of the "movements" you see. Add to these technical elements some concepts like change of direction, change of front, cadencia, arrepentida, ways to switch between "parralel/normal" and "cross" system, using and sharing "tracks" (thanks Oscar), pausing, etc.
With time, and it does take time - years, you will find yourself dancing "movements" which come from within yourself and your partner and not from YouTube or anyewhere else. Some you will like, some you will not and so you evolve. You will really not be dancing tango unless it comes from within, unless the "movements" are generated by the music (taking into account conditions on the?dance floor?as well as your partner, of course).
Watching video clips can serve as an inspiration, though, it can give you ideas, but do not try emulating them, you will most likely not be able to really do it and will waste your time and get frustrated.

Be patient with yourself and dance, dance, dance, practice, practice, practice, listen to the music, listen, listen ... and have fun doing it.

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Wed May 21 23:22:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 04:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone, isn't enough.
In-Reply-To: <789713.10462.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080522042208.3724h@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> before YouTube, I didn't know what a giro left was...really was.
> Now, any moves that I see, I can name...

How many colours can you see? How many of those can you name?

Show me a man who knows the names of all the colours he can see and I'll 
show you a man who is blind.

--
Chris

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 01:16:49 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:16:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] A pearl before the swine
Message-ID: <112772.82013.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Let this be one of my most valuable posts..
  First of all; I want to thank the many writers who emailed me
  to support and defend me against the wicked witch of the West...Astridophinealle
  That said; I want to add to the archives of Tango L..perhaps THE most important
  post of my life thus far....and that is the certainty and realization that:
  THE FOLLOW NEED NOT PUT ANY STRENGTH AT ALL INTO HER/HIS RIGHT HAND!!!!!
  That fact alone has moved me lightyears ahead in my dance...
  Do I need explain more...???? I could if asked. Just let me say that when the follow's right hand...and yes I mean 'follow's' because I dance with men, too!
  anyway, when their right hand disappears, so can mine..with all of it's problems!!
  ...make sense??? need more explanation???? just ask.....

       

From martin at waxman.net  Thu May 22 07:24:14 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:24:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] A pearl before the swine
In-Reply-To: <112772.82013.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <112772.82013.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080522071840.01f04ca0@waxman.net>

At 01:16 AM 5/22/2008, Mario wrote:
>Let this be one of my most valuable posts..
>... THE most important   post of my life thus far....and that is the 
>certainty and realization that:
>   THE FOLLOW NEED NOT PUT ANY STRENGTH AT ALL INTO HER/HIS RIGHT HAND!!!!!
>   That fact alone has moved me lightyears ahead in my dance...

You're just finding this out?
No teacher told you this before?
I'm amazed and saddened by the fact that no Argentine Tango teacher 
pointed this out to year at the beginning of your learning.

Now, tell me what you mean by "strength"

And, I resent calling all of us on the list who have tried to help you "swine".
Your future posts will automatically go to the trash bin.

Marty. 


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 07:37:35 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 04:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] A pearl before the ridicule
Message-ID: <8798.13123.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

""So, if you want a bargain on a dance teacher (mini-format, almost zero cost) 
, don't be surprised if you end up with a bargain on dance technique too. 
Now, all you have to do, is find a partner to match that cheap style and you 
are all set""...  Astrid
   
  Isn't it typical of an English I mean Tango 'teacher'  to want me to pay up BIG?
  Ever since I got into the dance, all I've met were people who wanted money from me..
  ...as much as possible and as soon as possible..I guess she doesn't want me to take
  English lessons too....well, that's a break.
   
  This will be my last post for  a while...Astrid finds them boring and I'm tired
  of her relentless attacks...so, now you can hear from her, instead of me.
   
  Lastly, I'd like to apologise to the Tango Nuevo people on the list...my two posts
  against that style of dance was unecessary and ignorant. Please, forgive me.
   
  I also apologise for using the word swine in my preceeding post..Astrid brings out
  the worst in me...she has a way about her..I'm just glad that, when I leave this forum
  she won't follow me....she refused my invite to facebook.
   
  http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=734224171


       

From george at inscenes.com  Thu May 22 08:56:24 2008
From: george at inscenes.com (George Nicol)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 05:56:24 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango Fallacies, Myths, and Weak Technique
Message-ID: <20080522125628.9FB19E2FFCF@mit.edu>

Hi Mario,
Here are a few other Tango Fallacies, Myths, and Weak Technique tips you
might find interesting. Check out www.inscenes.com then click on "Tango" on the
left column, then click on "Tango Fallacies" at the bottom of the 
TangoScene page.
Don't get discouraged.
Have fun,
George


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu May 22 11:13:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 16:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Fallacies, Myths, and Weak Technique
In-Reply-To: <20080522125628.9FB19E2FFCF@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <memo.20080522161308.3724y@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> click on "Tango Fallacies" at the bottom of the TangoScene page.

 "25. The follower is not responsible for safty on the dance floor."

I wonder what makes the author think that's a fallacy.

Bad Leading need not apply. ;)

--
Chris

From al at sgi.com  Thu May 22 11:41:02 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 17:41:02 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Fallacies, Myths, and Weak Technique
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080522161308.3724y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080522161308.3724y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <4835940E.1020109@sgi.com>

Chris, UK wrote:
>> click on "Tango Fallacies" at the bottom of the TangoScene page.
> 
>  "25. The follower is not responsible for safty on the dance floor."
> 
> I wonder what makes the author think that's a fallacy.
> 
I also wonder about some others. There are also a lot that are fallacies
or not depending on how you interpret them.

Given the astounding detail with which the author exposes the fallacies
as such, it's hard to know.

It looks like the mere fact that the author includes something on a list
is a proof of fallacy. Actually, *that's* argument to authority in its
worst form, and that *is* a logical fallacy. "Everything I don't believe
in personally must be wrong (be that mere fact)" is indeed a fallacy.

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu May 22 11:56:14 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 00:56:14 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Fallacies, Myths, and Weak Technique
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080522161308.3724y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080522161308.3724y@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <9AE06AAA5C624987A8BCB85370CFA057@homePC>


>> click on "Tango Fallacies" at the bottom of the TangoScene page.
>
> "25. The follower is not responsible for safty on the dance floor."

say what??
>
> I wonder what makes the author think that's a fallacy.

that list is bloody confusing. So, tango is not a conversation?

While you are reading this strange list, you should also take note of the 
horror picture of the dancing couple and the text below the picture:

"This is how to dance the tango! Feel the blood rise to your face with every 
beat;
while an arm winds like a snake around a waist that is about to break.
This is how to dance the tango!"

Once again- huh?? 


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu May 22 12:03:23 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 16:03:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Fallacies,Myths, etc.- tolerance
Message-ID: <BAY105-W53E068A3F272AE24F5AB5B97C60@phx.gbl>



The author of the web page in question asserts that the following are tango fallacies:


The eyes-closed Tango trance is a good thing.

The "cross" in the basic step is not lead.

The leader has the most difficult part.

The follower should apply pressure to the leader with their right hand

Tango is a conversation between leader and follower


I say:    Everyone has the right to dance as he wishes.  The observers may like or dislike what he does but it is his prerogative

            to dance and to think about tango as he pleases.

***IMO, a tango trance occurs very seldom, but when it does it is an unforgettable experience.  Here we could be talking about 

       different things, as we are not defining what a "tango trance" is. As to the eyes could be open during the tango trance, which I calle a 
"Magic experience".

***Many people think that the cross is done by the follower whenever the leader steps to her right. Those that think that way, teach
that when the leader steps to the right of the follower she will be crossed in two steps, unless he leads her not to cross.  

So... you can ask is he perhaps is leading the cross unconsciously?  The fact is that he is not conscious about leading the cross and does not
prevent it from happening.  Then the cross occurs. If you prefer to do it in any other way go ahead but do not call the opposite of what you do a fallacy.

Other people prefer to lead the cross.  Fine!  Big deal!.

***I think that the leader has the most difficult part, at the time of learning at the very least.  He has to listen to the music,
decide what to do with it, learn his own foot work, lead the follower to do different steps at the same time, navigate the floor properly,
etc.  The follower learns her foot work and how to follow.

***The follower has to have "muscle tone" in her right arm in open embrace so that the lead is followed. She does not apply pressure
but maintains muscle tone.

***Tango could be, at times, thought of a conversation, metaphorically speaking.  But...as we said you may think whatever you wish.

I really do not care much anyways.  I will continue dancing and thinking the way I prefer and hope you do the same.

There is too much dogmatism, religion and fanaticism in many people in Norht Ameria that gets transported  to tango.  

We are democratic, are we not?,  let's be tolerant of other peoples tastes and belifs.

Have a nice day, Sergio




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From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Thu May 22 13:05:38 2008
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 13:05:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] mario, left hand, Yes, you can learn tango from youtube
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702FD1E93@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Sometimes you "engage" the embrace in the frame and it is felt in the
followers right hand, sometimes less. What others call "muscle tone." 
For example, in a rebote, you would "engage" not tense up, the frame so
she knows it will be a rebote vs a boleo.  In a counterclockwise giro,
my left hand creates a slight pulling action counterclockwise, the
natural result of my left shoulder rotating back.  In close salon
without apilado, this provides follower with useful information.  
Ive learned after ten years there are few, or none,  "always" rules in
tango technique,  every rule has exceptions at different times. 
Also, dont listen to the utter nonsense on this list that you cannot
learn from youtube.  Youtube is the great democratizer of information,
you no longer have to pry the esoteric secrets of tango from exclusive
teachers.    To say that you cannot learn from watching the masters is
as ridiculous a statement as saying that a modern jazz musician does not
learn form listening to older blues, swing, bebop, or that an art
student cannot learn from a visit to a museum to sketch the masters.   I
and many others I know have learned a heck of a lot from it, have used
it for group brainstorming in practicas, and have found many class demos
and summaries on you tube that are very valuable.  Of course, you have
to be selective in what you are looking for, and you have to freeze the
cursor and go back over and over to view not just the movement you like,
but the posture, the embrace, the lead, the timing, it all comes into
play and very hard to get at first viewing.  But if you put in the time
and practice it on your own, you can most certainly benefit from
youtube. It is equivalent to a workshop, but of course not as good as a
private with a qualified pro. 
 

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Thu May 22 13:41:49 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 10:41:49 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Mario
Message-ID: <48354DED.5766.2F58C9@flame.2xtreme.net>

For accuracy's sake, let's re-name this mailing list "Mario's Tango-L Digest" 
shall we?

Flame



From dschmitz007 at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 13:36:18 2008
From: dschmitz007 at yahoo.com (Dave Schmitz)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 10:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] mario, left hand, Yes,
	you can learn tango from youtube
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702FD1E93@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <119361.40106.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 5/22/08, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov> wrote:

> To say that you cannot learn from watching the
> masters is
> as ridiculous a statement as saying that
. . .
> an art
> student cannot learn from a visit to a museum to sketch the
> masters.

Which, as it happened, is what the early Impressionists did on their visits to the Louvre.




      

From dchester at charter.net  Thu May 22 13:37:55 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 13:37:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone,  isn't enough..
In-Reply-To: <mailman.989.1211472695.494.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20080522133755.T55P0.247082.root@fepweb03>

Chris,

Have you ever considered the possibility that just because you can't do something, it doesn't mean that others (like Mario) can't.  While I don't agree with everything that Mario (or anyone else for that matter) posts, I certainly have, (and continue to) learn things from watching video.  While it's not my only way to learn, it is a help (at least with some videos).  I often ask teachers about things I saw in a video, and a couple times, I've been asked where I learned a move.

The bottom line, is that however you get the information, you then have to practice it to really get some proficiency at it, but IMO you are incorrect that watching video on youtube (or elsewhere) is of no value (with the exception of how it applies to you).

David

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:04 +0100 (BST)
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why YouTube alone,  isn't enough..
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> 
> > Anyway, the one good thing about YouTube study is that; Yes, I could 
> > watch my favorite dancers (last nite) and dissect each move from the one 
> > preceeding ...I could see the weight change, walk to the cross, defeat
> > to the ocho cortado, etc, etc....
> 
> Mario, it sounds like you're nearing the level where one realises this is 
> not "one good thing".
> 
> It's zero good thing.
> 
> --
> Chris
> 

From desdelasnubes at web.de  Fri May 23 08:14:20 2008
From: desdelasnubes at web.de (desdelasnubes@web.de)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:14:20 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] comic pearls and golden silence
Message-ID: <636997870@web.de>


"A pearl before the swine" was the name of a recent thread. 

I must admit I have never heard of any tango songs talking about casting pearls before the swine 
(and I sure do know many songs),  
but the title of the thread did not give me any clue to a possible tango connection. 

So in the beginning I was misled to think the author was refering to a more prominent author 
called Matthew:
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, 
lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Reading further I found messages in abundance, but no pearls. 

Meditating about the subject more thoroughly I have come to the conclusion, that the author
was probably referring not to the bible, but to a more modern source on the www. 
There is a comic strip called "Pearls Before Swine":

"Stephan Pastis sketches this nuanced comic strip tale, which features the arrogant, self-centered, and totally hilarious Rat, who leads his four-legged friends through misadventure after misadventure. "
http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/

>   This will be my last post for  a while...

This sounds quite promising. 

 "Silence is golden, as her father used to say when she used to fly into tempers and wanted to say nasty things 
to everybody withing range" (Aldous Huxley, Antic Hay, 1923). 

"En boca cerrada no entran moscas." ;)

Anna



_______________________________________________________________________
EINE F?R ALLE: die kostenlose WEB.DE-Plattform f?r Freunde und Deine
Homepage mit eigenem Namen. Jetzt starten! http://unddu.de/?kid=kid at mf2



From larrynla at juno.com  Fri May 23 17:46:34 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 21:46:34 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Finding tango in out-of-the-way places
Message-ID: <20080523.144634.26129.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>

Finding tango in small towns is hard.  There are several ways to go about it, aside from TANGO-L and such which usually don't work too well.

One way is bring up Google.com, select Maps, and enter "city" "state" milonga.  Put the city and the state in double quotes if they are two or three words.  You can also use "Argentine tango" instead of milonga, but you will get a lot of unwanted references if you do.

Failing that, try a search for "state" "Argentine tango".  Many states have a society for the entire state and pointers to individual cities.

I had no success with either of those approaches.  Using the next largest metro area, Tom's River, about 25 miles north, just gave me 

The next step is to look for a larger city close by.  Long Beach City is on the coast about 25 miles south of Toms River.  All a search there did was to find links in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and Trenton, New Jersey.  Both of those are about  45 miles to the east.

Can you get there?  If so, try my search suggestions for those two cities.

Larry de Los Angeles

_____________________________________________________________
Click to create your dream holiday in Florida.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifFNH2EeBiLYaEiRt01DtuE5rbM2SrvaZtTRJxYFo6SLSh3c/?count=1234567890




From tobias_conradi at yahoo.de  Sat May 24 06:43:15 2008
From: tobias_conradi at yahoo.de (Mr tobias conradi)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 10:43:15 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Finding tango in out-of-the-way places
Message-ID: <663804.98483.qm@web26303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



if you are from such a small community and want to tell about your existens you can create an article in the wiki like they exist for

http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Los_Angeles
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/San_Diego

or for a state, with links to smaller towns
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Florida

The top category for the US is
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:US

with subcategories for each state
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:US-FL
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:US-NY
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:US-CA
...

For many cities there are city categories
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:USLAX
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:USCHI
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Category:USNYC

If this is too complicated for you, just write a plain article under the name of your city

http://wiki.tango.info/mul/My_Townname

and mention in the article where it is located. Categorization can be done by others.

if you don't have an account yet:
http://wiki.tango.info/mul/create_account

best regards
Tobias

--
Tobias Conradi


http://eng.tango.info http://festivals.tango.info




----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ----
> Von: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> An: tango-L at mit.edu
> Gesendet: Freitag, den 23. Mai 2008, 23:46:34 Uhr
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Finding tango in out-of-the-way places
> 
> Finding tango in small towns is hard.  There are several ways to go about it, 
> aside from TANGO-L and such which usually don't work too well.
> 
> One way is bring up Google.com, select Maps, and enter "city" "state" milonga.  
> Put the city and the state in double quotes if they are two or three words.  You 
> can also use "Argentine tango" instead of milonga, but you will get a lot of 
> unwanted references if you do.
> 
> Failing that, try a search for "state" "Argentine tango".  Many states have a 
> society for the entire state and pointers to individual cities.
> 
> I had no success with either of those approaches.  Using the next largest metro 
> area, Tom's River, about 25 miles north, just gave me 
> 
> The next step is to look for a larger city close by.  Long Beach City is on the 
> coast about 25 miles south of Toms River.  All a search there did was to find 
> links in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and Trenton, New Jersey.  Both of those are 
> about  45 miles to the east.
> 
> Can you get there?  If so, try my search suggestions for those two cities.
> 
> Larry de Los Angeles
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click to create your dream holiday in Florida.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifFNH2EeBiLYaEiRt01DtuE5rbM2SrvaZtTRJxYFo6SLSh3c/?count=1234567890
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



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From larrynla at juno.com  Sat May 24 17:10:09 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 21:10:09 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers?
Message-ID: <20080524.141009.11209.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>

Recently I went to Lynn Lewin's practica here in L.A. for ladies who lead (www.casadepractica.com).  There were six women and two men, counting me, at the practica, which is held in a garage turned dance venue with a beautiful wooden floor which has just enough give to feel soft but not like a trampoline.  

Before I went I scanned the last couple of years of TANGO-L archives for pointers on following, since I went to learn how to follow.  I found enough on leading to fill a doctoral dissertation but almost nothing on following - unless you count followers complaining about bad leading!

Here are some of the things I learned, most given me by those I practiced with.  From past experience learning many different dances I know that I may have to change or even discard what I'm learning now.

Following is not passive.  It includes communication using the silent language of our bodies, with followers doing much active "listening."  Leaders also must listen to their partner's body language, so I'd had plenty of practice doing this.  Some of those skills helped, but I didn't instantly become expert at doing it as a follower.

At first with each partner I was a bit tense but as we became acquainted and I found I could trust her my body relaxed.  With a couple of partners later on in the evening I began to feel a, perhaps quietness is the best word, from my body.  Yet it wasn't the relaxation that comes before sleep, but a very awake feeling.

I had trouble with my right hand at first.  I was tense and pushed with it.  Later (under my partners' urging) I began to learn to simply leave where she placed it in the beginning, supported by my arm, letting it flex a little but returning to a central position.

Different partners wanted my right hand oriented differently and I had to learn to match their desire.  Luckily none wanted it oriented in a  painful or awkward arrangement and I didn't have to resist their preference.

My left arm rested along the top of her shoulders in close embrace.  I had to fine-tune how heavy or light I rested it.  Too little and our connection was poorer; too much and the weight would become painful.

A couple of leaders positioned me further away and had me place my left hand just above her biceps.  With this I had to learn not only to keep my arm from drooping but also to grasp firmly but not painfully.

I had some trouble leaning into my partners the way they wanted and still need to work on this.  I always thought that my slight forward lean as a leader would be the same as a follower, but there seem to be subtle differences that go beyond mere physics.  I suspect that only experience will fine-tune this.  And I wonder if women's jokes about men followers needing to wear high heels are more than jokes.  I always thought heels were just for looks, but maybe they give followers some real benefits.

When moving a couple of my partners urged me to step back straighter and stretch my toes a bit to reach the floor.  This helped keep our knees from bumping together.  It seemed to have other benefits that I felt but don't understand.  But then intellectual understanding is not the only kind.  Our bodies also have kinesthetic smarts, which don't go through the higher brain.

I've long looked down on the 8-count basic.  As a beginning follower I appreciated it because once my leader started it I knew just what to do, unlike the nervous uncertainty when any step could bring a surprise.  I suppose it's a matter of using it to learn, then being able to discard it when I gain skill at taking each single step with confidence.

Any experienced followers out there who can give us newbies pointers on how to follow?  AND how better to learn to follow?

Larry de Los Angeles

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From Jantango at feedback.net.ar  Sat May 24 20:35:23 2008
From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 21:35:23 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga admissions in Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <005c01c8be00$30ea5480$938f3dc8@JANIS>

Each year prior to the Campeonato Metropolitano de Baile de Tango, the city
publishes the program for a month of qualifying rounds in the milongas which
includes the cost of regular admission for each milonga.  Entradas aren't
included in magazine advertising, so this is annual review time of entradas.
Only the milongas participating in the qualifying rounds are considered in
this evaluation.

In 2005, the entradas ranged from 2-8 pesos, with only one milonga charging
10 pesos.
In 2006, the entradas ranged from 3-10 pesos with only one milonga charging
12 pesos (the same one that charged 10 pesos in 2005).
In 2007, the entradas ranged from 5-10 pesos with only one milonga out of 40
charging 12 pesos.
This year the entradas range from 8-15 pesos with one milonga charging 20
pesos (Tango Ideal).

One milonga organizer recently asked me why I don't attend her milonga
regularly.  I explained that the entrada, taxis, drinks, and tips makes it
economically impossible for me.  I go regularly to a place I can walk to,
where the entrada is affordable, and I know there will be good dancers.

Many locals are unaware that 20 pesos is being charged by some organizers.
They gasp when I tell them and respond it's crazy.  Is it any wonder that
some places have more foreigners than locals?



From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sun May 25 01:39:54 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 14:39:54 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers?
In-Reply-To: <20080524.141009.11209.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080524.141009.11209.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <FC875DB55DC34754AC62A905425D4A36@homePC>

> Before I went I scanned the last couple of years of TANGO-L archives for
> pointers on following, since I went to learn how to follow.  I found
> enough on leading to fill a doctoral dissertation but almost nothing on
> following - unless you count followers complaining about bad leading!

The reason for this is that followers don't seem to have much of a voice on
tango-l. I have met some lurkers in private mail who never post a word
because "they are too well known" in their community and are worried, the
word will get around and men won't dance with them anymore, or something
like that. Those women that do have a voice and use it, often either get
flamed, ignored, or, as I have also been told, a number of men here simply
"do not read postings from females by principle" on this list. I have never
seen you answer any of my postings either over the years, Larry.
So, after having men tell everybody how women feel and teaching us women to
feel the way they told us we are supposed to feel if we don't, we now have a
male poster learning how to dance as a follower and telling the other list
members what following is "really like". Isn't this great? ; ) At least you
will get some attention, Larry.

> Following is not passive.  It includes communication using the silent
> language of our bodies, with followers doing much active "listening."

this is true.

> At first with each partner I was a bit tense but as we became acquainted
> and I found I could trust her my body relaxed.

You were lucky.

> My left arm rested along the top of her shoulders in close embrace.  I had
> to fine-tune how heavy or light I rested it.  Too little and our
> connection was poorer; too much and the weight would become painful.

The left arm is also for fine tuning your distance from the partner, the way
you want it. I have on a few rare occasions had to put some force into my
arm to keep a man from closer than I wanted him to, and a number of
interesting times I have rested it more lightly than the man expected,
raised my elbow a little and soon he would, different from his usual habit,
slide into the embrace and hold me closer than anybody else. ; )
>
> A couple of leaders positioned me further away and had me place my left
> hand just above her biceps.  With this I had to learn not only to keep my
> arm from drooping but also to grasp firmly but not painfully.

Yeah, the stage dancers, those who feel uncomfortable, or cannot lead you
otherwise (without using their arms?) and those who have not mastered
enough tortion in their bodies for coping with close embrace.
>
> I had some trouble leaning into my partners the way they wanted and still
> need to work on this.  I always thought that my slight forward lean as a
> leader would be the same as a follower, but there seem to be subtle
> differences that go beyond mere physics.

Yep. Also keep in mind that you are, after all, a man leaning on a woman who
is probably also shorter and lighter than you, so the physics mauy be very
different from the real thing. Find a man who is taller and stronger than
you to get the idea.
If you see some Argentines, the angle of the woman's lean is at times much
wider than that of a man. But it takes plenty of skill in following AND in
leading to dance like this. Men who walk with their weight on their heels or
heels first and body straight up would make you extremely uncomfortable in
this position.

 I suspect that only experience will fine-tune this.  And I wonder if
women's jokes about men followers needing to wear high heels are more than
jokes.  I always thought heels were just for looks, but maybe they give
followers some real benefits.

The high heels of the shoes give the woman contact with the floor while she
is walking backward on the balls of her feet and her heels, obviously, are
up in the air. Without heels, her walk gets a bumpy, bouncy quality we don't
want, unless she constantly wants to be suspended on her toes (rather tiring
in the long run) which is not very stable. The heels however also present an
additional challenge to keeping our balance and make the arch of the foot
and the back very sensitive to injury if a man decides to bear down on our
shoulders with his weight, something that many men are blissfully unaware of
or don't want to know. ("Get your balance and your body tone together,
woman, to become more user friendly!", seems to be their idea)
>
> I've long looked down on the 8-count basic.  As a beginning follower I
> appreciated it because once my leader started it I knew just what to do,
> unlike the nervous uncertainty when any step could bring a surprise.

Yes. however, the uncertainty is the whole point in tango. A good leader can
lull a woman into a dance trance while making her follow his body's moves
without thinking into whatever direction. However, I have spent evenings at
milongas where every single leader used exactly the same steps until my body
almost went into automatic pilot, and this is counterproductive and also
very boring.


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May 25 08:39:58 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 05:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for followers?
Message-ID: <634891.89686.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tango-who needs it?
  With all this kind of bitching and complaining, I'm thinking that the only place 
  to dance it is in BsAs where the culture and the women know how to handle it.
  Certainly not in Japan and likely not in North Amerika neither. 
   

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun May 25 09:58:21 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango - L  Sharpshooters
Message-ID: <60474.43057.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yep, I thought that I would take a try at playing the lofty role of;  TA - TAAAH
   
                              THE TANGO L SHARPSHOOTER
   
  You know, sitting back (lurking) and waiting for an ignoble post (by someone I dislike)
   ..to then, come down from my heights and cast a thunderbolt at the evil doer.
    You know the type; they never risk adding their own content to Tango L ,
   afterall someone  (another Sharpshooter) may snipe at it and make their offering turn into crap.
   With all the Sharpshooters lurking in the wings (or in Japan or the U.K. etc),
   ..pretty soon, no one will have the poor sense of posting their positive and
    optimistic thoughts/experiences about Tangoing...oh no, no one will post because
    there will be/are(?) aware of a dozen or more Snipers waiting to take deadly aim.
   

       

From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Sun May 25 17:56:49 2008
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 18:56:49 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.425.1211732431.27115.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.425.1211732431.27115.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4839E0A1.8060606@lavidacondeby.com>

Mario wrote:

Tango-who needs it?
  With all this kind of bitching and complaining, I'm thinking that the only place 
  to dance it is in BsAs where the culture and the women know how to handle it.
  Certainly not in Japan and likely not in North Amerika neither. 


Mario, since I live here I will give you my perspective.  The vapid ranting and raving you see on this list, the mean spiritedness, the demand to be absolutely right regardless, that is not in our culture here.  Lists like these do not exist here for whatever reason.  People do not debate step by step, dissect every movement, of the dance nor do they debate the political correctness of the embrace. 

BUT, Argentines by nature love to complain.  And they do. It should be a national sport up there with football. In tango and outside of tango people complain. As for the women knowing how to handle it, handle what?  Our tango culture is so different than the cultures outside of Buenos Aires, you cannot compare them.  

For whatever reason tango seems to bring out the worst in people outside of Buenos Aires.  I once had this conversation with a guest of mine.  What is it about this dance that makes people this way?  I can say at least from my perspective, here in Buenos Aires we treat each other much nicer and with more respect.  We greet people we know (Unlike people in the U.S. who tend to ignore people they know and then pretend they didn't see them). We look forward to seeing our friends at a milonga rather than wrack up a scorecard of the number and quality of dances.  For us, the milonga is a social event.  As I have said often, outside of here it tends to take on the characteristics of any Olympic sport.  The whole feeling of the dance gets lost in a competitive battle.  

I would never give up dancing tango because a few people want to create a nasty environment.  You need to find your place.  When you do, you will see why tango is why it is.



From larrynla at juno.com  Sat May 24 21:57:01 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 01:57:01 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] What Women (Tango Dancers) Want
Message-ID: <20080524.185701.8249.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com>

Most people stereotype women, including women themselves.  I love their diversity.

There are several reasons.  I started out to be a psychologist in college and got halfway to a degree before changing to another program.  In a way I'm still a psychologist; about a dozen years ago I began working to change fiction writing from an avocation to a vocation.  And for several decades I was an engineer.  We absolutely cannot stereotype, at least in our technical fields.  To do so can introduce errors that kill, cause horrible injuries, waste millions of dollars, or all three.

Plus I've had a lot of women who were more than lovers.  They were and are friends for many years.  And perhaps I still have the unshockable interested aura of the psychologist.  People, especially women, tell me things they'd never mentioned to their closest women friends or lovers or "spouses" if Lesbian.  Which is how twice I ended up playing top to an out-and-out sexual masochist, one of whom took me to S&M events.  Boy, did I get a lot of material for my books from them!

(And, no, I do not want to repeat those experiences.  If you're not into it, playing master is time-consuming and gets really boring after a while.  As in, Cynthia, how many kinds of whips do I NEED?!  And, you want me to do WHAT with these push-pins?  And, for the last time, I AM going to sterilize those!)

So when I hear people, men as well as women, saying that women don't care about "steps" or "tricks" and just want emotional connections and simple stuff that induces "bliss" I raise an eyebrow.  Because I've known many women who are as obsessed as any man with athletics and complexity, and not just in dance.  Some of them from before they even started kindergarten.

We hear a lot about parents pushing kids to act or whatever.  We hear almost nothing about kids as young as three years old deciding they're going to the Olympics and the parents can damn well get out of the way if they're not going to help.  It's so counter-intuitive.  Parents are the bosses, right?  And kids have to do what they say?  But I'll bet you know at least one young girl whose eyes will narrow and jaw tighten when someone tries to lay down the law to her.  And who will cry when whipped, or sent to their room without supper, but with tears of rage and not hurt.

So when I embrace a woman at a milonga and we begin to move I'm not only working to have a good time myself, but also to try to make the dance good for my partner.  It's not because I'm so compassionate or empathetic or self-sacrificing.  It's partly an ego thing, as women know who sometimes feel pressured to have an orgasm.  It's also pragmatic; a woman who has a fun dance will be more receptive to more dances with me.

I've heard men say its too much work to worry about their partner having a good time.  And it's not the man's job, anyway.  He's supposed to LEAD.  But after many years of  constantly sensing how my partner's body moves the skills have become automatic.  Besides, it's also a pleasure to feel how those silky thighs ... erh, well.

I also pay attention to how well women do, say, a boleo or gancho.  If it snaps like a whip I know this woman has put a lot of time practicing it and will likely enjoy doing another.  (Though a leader can overdo leading ganchos or whatever.  Adornos are like spices.  Too much is as bad as too little.)

There ought to be classes on just women's adornos, both led and self-initiated, but there are very few classes on women's skills of any kind.  I've certainly heard a lot of women complain about this.  And it seems as if men should want those classes, too, for the very selfish reason that if he helps women have a good time they'll want to dance more with him.

So what would such a class look like?  There has to be part that focuses on what men must do to lead adornos, and to allow time and space for self-started adornos.  Then class time for some of the easier ones.  This would include boleos and ganchos.  And what else?  Do you have any ideas?

Here's one that's very easy.  Man steps left, leaves right foot in place with knee bent, stops, straightens his spine, lifts his right shoulder slightly.  This tells a woman that he's not going to move without signalling he is.  That his free (right) leg is a target of opportunity.  She can then lift her free (left) leg and slide it down his free leg.  At the end of the movement she has two or three choices, including leaving her free leg draped over his so that he can do a sacada on it to slide into the next figure.

Oops!  I've run out of time.  Got to get ready for El Encuentro, one of my favorite milongas here in L.A.

Larry de Los Angeles

PS  To see some of my writing, including the first part of the novel that begins my Shapechanger Chronicles series, click on the following link.

http://larrydla.home.att.net/writing.html

_____________________________________________________________
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 07:29:56 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 04:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] mario, left hand, Yes,
	you can learn tango from youtube
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702FD1E93@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <920862.2516.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau at law.nyc.gov> wrote:

> Sometimes you "engage" the embrace in the frame and it is
> felt in the followers right hand, sometimes less. What
others call "muscle tone." 

I prefer the terms "structure" or "presence" - there 
should be enough that the woman keeps the shape of her
embrace.  "Muscle tone" conjures up images of contracting
the biceps.  I think I actually use my back muscles. Lately
I've been working on creating this structure by engaging
the abs through to the arm.  Makes a big difference in
overturned ochos and such.

Mario, that doesn't mean that you should think of using the
woman's right arm as a point of leverage.  It sounds as if
this is what you had in mind before your revelation.

A common problem I encounter when I lead is the women
pulling in with their right arm instead of reaching for the
man's left arm.  It's as if the women don't realize that
they are responsible for keeping the embrace, too.  It's
not just the man embracing their partner. She needs to
embrace him, too.

Trini de Pittsburgh


PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



      

From lunapalacios at gmail.com  Mon May 26 13:23:33 2008
From: lunapalacios at gmail.com (Luna Palacios)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:23:33 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
In-Reply-To: <dbc550dd0805261021o115965aobf14831a1b8343ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbc550dd0805261021o115965aobf14831a1b8343ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dbc550dd0805261023l7b16bc0v40a4d4b27da46583@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Luna Palacios <lunapalacios at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 26, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Tango who needs it?
To: tango-l at mit.edu


Hi,

I always have problems to respond to the list when I read something that
catches my eye.I really hope that this one goes trough.

And I just have one thing to say: Thank you *Deby* for your thoughtfull,
accurate and spirited responce. It was needed. Thanks in the name of all of
us whom really love tango as a social fact with all our hearts.
I dont want to open any other issue here, just wanted to make a note for you
who, who seem to be actually really in love with tango and for sure tango is
also in love with you, you "two" seem to be "understanding each other " very
very well =)Thanks again.

My best regards to all,

Luna Palacios.

From lunapalacios at gmail.com  Mon May 26 13:45:08 2008
From: lunapalacios at gmail.com (Luna Palacios)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:45:08 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Move over Flaco Danny..
Message-ID: <dbc550dd0805261045j1e924b89i72bedb97520e983c@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sort of learning how to respond =)

I spent some time going trough the list  and I found this thread, what
exactly "Move over Flaco Dany" means?
I'm curious as I don't really understand the thread nor the phrase and for
some reasons I don't want to misinterpret it.
Can somebody tell me what the author meant by it?

Thanks!!! =)


Luna Palacios

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 16:45:01 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 13:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Move over Flaco Danny
Message-ID: <507856.68741.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Hi Luna,
    The title of the thread was simply a play on the expression;
   'Move over Beethoven' by Little Richard...it essentially means;
   'Look out music worls, here I come!'...
   That thread and the one before it 'Two Tangos to chuckle too' 
     Were highlighting the dancing of Maria + Gustavo.
    The Milonga 'Tango Negro' is one that Flaco Danny is known to dance to
     I thought that Maria+Gustavo brought a lot of originality to the piece.
   

       

From larrynla at juno.com  Mon May 26 18:30:02 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:30:02 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers? prt 1
Message-ID: <20080526.153002.14813.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>

This sent to me by someone who occasionally reads TANGO-L but is not a member.  Posted with her approval.  --  Larry de Los Angeles

Do whatever you have to do (special exercises, pilates, ballet, yoga, practices with women only) to develop your core strength and your flexibility.   It may appear that the follower is leaning against the leader, but what is actually happening is that she is supporting her own weight with her core and using the touch points of her right hand, the left (upper) portion of her torso and the palm of her left hand to maintain her connection to her partner.  At times, you must be able to swivel your hips while simultaneously maintaining a connection, reorienting your axis and executing a long, curving step around your partner.  This is what gives the dance its characteristic sinuous quality.  You should be doing molinetes in practice embrace by the hour, because it helps you build those disassociated back steps.  Since the  leader also executes moves that require this disassociation between the upper and lower bodies, your practice will be valuable to you when you resume the leader?s role.  In terms of posture in the close embrace connection, nothing is more important than keeping your core from sinking ? I know this may sound vulgar, Larry, but remember ? it?s tits up at all times.

Place an emotional pause/neutral place at every gather, and gather every time.  The neutral spot will be invisible to an observer and in time with the music and will not interrupt the flow of your steps, but it is critical to your partner because it allows him to amuse you by breaking apart rote figures. At any time a leader may want to use pauses, syncopations, checked moves and reversals in direction to interpret the music or manage a busy dance floor.  If you aren?t in a neutral position you will miss this exquisite moment of connection and rob your partner of his opportunity to join you with the music.

Always walk on a straight line, stepping behind yourself on an imaginary line extending from the heel of the weighted foot.  This creates a pleasing visual line and avoids an ungainly open-legged stance for the follower, while keeping you in a narrow channel on a busy dance floor.  I think it adds subtlety to back ochos (particularly when only one is executed by navigational purposes) because you are starting from a fine line, not a block of space.  I know not everyone loves the single track idea, but I think women who do this look better than women who don?t.

When walking, learn how to extend your unweighted leg in a long, clean, straight line without disrupting your axis or your connection or increasing the sensation of your weight on your partner.   There is a difference between getting more extension by bending the supporting knee and getting more extension by lengthening the musculature that supports the hip.  Practicing extending your leg without allowing your head and chest to become closer to the ground.  The most elegant leaders step into the open space (even beyond your supporting foot) and the visual line created by the alignment of the two legs reaching into the open space (especially in a contra-body position) is especially beautiful.  By stepping in a single line, you leave him as much open space as he can use.  That long, hungry forward step on an elegantly extended leg (enhanced by the tenderness of the embrace that joins the upper bodies) is the hallmark of the best leaders.  Don?t rob him of the chance to show it if he has it.  Much is made of the obligation of the man to make the woman look beautiful, but you must remember that you owe him the same in exchange. 

Concentrate on the beauty of your feet and legs while stepping.  Maintain a slight edge in your unweighted foot, with the ankle slightly broken to allow the ball of the foot to edge the floor.  Keep your feet on the floor in every step ? in ochos, in molinetes, in giros, when walking.

Liz

[CONTINUED IN PART TWO]

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From larrynla at juno.com  Mon May 26 18:31:02 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:31:02 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers? prt 2
Message-ID: <20080526.153102.14813.1@webmail11.dca.untd.com>

This sent to me by someone who occasionally reads TANGO-L but is not a member.  Posted with her approval.  --  Larry de Los Angeles

[CONTINUED FROM PART ONE]

Listen with your body.  Many followers manifest concentration through a terrified expression:  ?What is he going to do next?  Will I know how to follow him??  Learn to express the raptness of your attention externally in a way that makes your partner glad to have you in his arms.  It is more pleasing if your outer appearance says ?I hear the music and I am waiting for you to join us in an expression of this music and this moment.  This is going to be wonderful?.  Since your partner can?t see your face, strive to manifest your attention through the aliveness of your connection in the places where you are touching him ? your right hand, your upper torso and your left hand. 

Don?t adorn every step.  Although adornments are your opportunity to express your own joy they should also be an appreciation of the leader, an expression of your delight in what he is making of this moment.  If he gives you a beat or two, use the adornment to enhance the lead that he has offered for this particular music.  That could mean a staccato beat on your ankle if he has been dancing to the rhythm or a languid caress of the floor if he has been dancing to the melody.    As you know from your attendance at US Milongas, it is can be pretty much ?all adornos, all the time? but in my view, they give a rote, auto-pilot look to the dance that isn?t pleasing.  If you are lucky enough to dance with a particular partner often enough to understand his style, it is possible to engage in a sweet little ?call and response? or ?point-counter-point? in adornos, but this will be the exception, not the rule.  Save it for the guy who really knows how to lead a boleo (that would be one in 50, in my experience ? maybe the ratio is better in LA). 

The most exquisite adornment I ever saw was during a vals at El Beso.   The leader (older, paunchier) had just executed an amazing single-pivot turn that lasted for at least ten seconds. They were in a milonguero embrace, never broken, with her arm over his shoulder and her hand low on his back, between his shoulder blades.  At the end of the turn, just as they stepped out of it, she smiled and lifted her hand to the back of his neck for two seconds and then slid it down to the center of his back ? not in an icky, cloying way, but in a ?man, you are amazing? way.  She knew he couldn?t see her smile, and the lovely flutter of her hand and touch on his neck was her tribute to what he had created.      

And yes, the shoes help, because your foot is already articulated and when you put your weight down on a 3 inch heel it only has a tiny distance to travel and you avoid that bumpedty-bump that you probably experienced when trying to step onto your toes and then roll onto your heel.  I expect you aren?t planning to make a career of following so I imagine it won?t be worth it to invest in a size whatever-you-are  Comme il Fauts, but if you ever get a chance you should try it.   

I think open embrace (hand on bicep) is good for learning a step, and in my experience newer leaders like it because they aren?t having to deal with all of the anxiety of finding a place for their feet that comes in close embrace.  It can teach a leader to lead with his chest (but mostly only if the follower continues to say ?stop steering me with your hands) but it completely changes the way the follower manages her weight and axis. 

If you really want to know what it is like to follow, you should be dancing with men.  In my experience, women leads have a lot of difficulty with the chest lead.  It takes a long time for them to learn how to bring the weight of the upper body forward before extending the leg.  Of course, this could be complicated by the fact that there are too many peaks and not enough valleys when women dance together in milonguero-style close embrace.  It?s better if the woman is bigger and heavier than you are.  Don?t know what you have in LA, but if  you are ever in Portland, Alex Krebs has a men?s technique class in which the men trade off lead and follow. 

Liz

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From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Tue May 27 04:53:53 2008
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:53:53 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] Mover over Beethoven?
Message-ID: <483BCC21.00000B.03916@OEM-COMPUTER>

I think that's 'Roll over Beethoven'! - Chuck Berry.
As in the old making way for the new ..... The times are a changing etc.
But I could be wrong ...............
Mel.
 

From jpsighe at sighes.com  Tue May 27 05:16:40 2008
From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 02:16:40 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO... THE PLACE OF GATHERING
Message-ID: <071801c8bfda$61062eb0$030fa8c0@Desktop1>


"Like in any direct communication, the need to listen and be listened to is essential. To me, knowing where my partner IS, at this step that is being executed or at this moment, is the justification of the embrace we are both creating. Otherwise, it would be a totally individualistic exercise. It implies, though, that the idea of the embrace is cherished in the first place and that there is comfort in it. It has been my personal observation that some people (men and women) are very reluctant to accept the embrace."...


Give us a click to read the rest of the article here:
http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol9_may08.html


Tangamente,

Jean-Pierre Sighe

-----------------
TANGO MAGDALENA
580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305
Oakland, CA 94610

Web site : http://www.tangomagdalena.com
Contact: (510) 836 0812

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue May 27 07:13:24 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 04:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Move over Beethoven
Message-ID: <373034.94245.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You're right Mel..you have a much better memory for details.
       

From Jantango at feedback.net.ar  Tue May 27 13:29:21 2008
From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:29:21 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Free subscriptions to B.A. Tango available in PDF format
Message-ID: <007001c8c01f$349d43a0$888f3dc8@JANIS>

I have been a reader of B.A. Tango--Buenos Aires Tango by Tito Palumbo since
1996.  I subscribed to his magazine for $40US a year so that I could receive
the bi-weekly editions in Illinois.  The format changed from black & white
to full color in a monthly publication.  High printing and mailing costs
made it prohibitively expensive to offer subscriptions.

Tito is now offering free subscriptions to the monthly magazine by email.
It will be sent in pdf format.  The magazine has a complete English
translation.

B.A. Tango--Buenos Aires Tango was the first tango magazine to be
distributed free in the milongas.  In my opinion, it is the best.  I read
every word.  It is my guide to the milongas and events in the city.

To subscribe, send an email to abatango at yahoo.com  with the subject line:
subscription.  Your subscription will begin with the next edition No. 192
for June/July 2008.




From michaelfigart at yahoo.com  Wed May 28 00:14:39 2008
From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:14:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers? prt 1
Message-ID: <991241.49307.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Larry, please send my thanks (and my wish for a few
tandas), to Liz. There is a lot of wisdom in her "Tips
for Followers", and not just for the women. Most of
the men on this list should hope for, and be working
towards, the time that they can dance a woman toward
the kind of experience that this woman describes and
desires, and has obviously experienced.
Women, please take note of the second paragraph! 
I do need to say one thing about the third paragraph;
I rarely dance in a straight line, and I think foot
placement becomes, with skill and work, completely led
down to the half-millimeter. Women should not step in
a perfectly straight line unless they are led to do
so, but yes, it looks better, and teachers should make
this a clear goal for dancers; to be able to lead, and
follow, in a manner that both can look elegant in
their steps and stance. I think it would be better put
to the follower; try to place each step the perfect
distance, and in the perfect direction, so that as you
both step, you can easily, smoothly, and with a
minimum of effort, move together into that next
"neutral spot". Women; please take note of the second
paragraph!!!                                     There
is some more I don't necessarily agree with, but
there's enough wisdom in her words to make me think I
may be wrong in disagreeing. I've still got worlds of
tango exploration in front of me, and lots of looking
for the next dance with the woman who understands and
practices what Liz proposes.
Thanks again, to both of you,
Michael Figart II
Houston

From lunapalacios at gmail.com  Thu May 29 11:14:28 2008
From: lunapalacios at gmail.com (Luna Palacios)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:14:28 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Move Over Flaco Danny.
Message-ID: <dbc550dd0805290814t29933a22v5f5e0a2aba3bd908@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, thanks to all that responded to me in private and thanks to the ones
that posted the responces.
I understand your point Mario, thanks for making it "clear".........

Good tangos to all.

Abrazo.

Luna Palacios.

From Jantango at feedback.net.ar  Thu May 29 11:20:46 2008
From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:20:46 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Osvaldo Cartery returning home
Message-ID: <003301c8c19f$91dc3db0$be8f3dc8@JANIS>

I spoke with his daughter yesterday about his current condition.  Osvaldo
has been hospitalized since March.  He was on oxygen due to the situation
with his lungs.  He will be returning home this week since his condition has
improved.  He and Coca won't be doing any traveling this year.  They will
resume classes in Buenos Aires when Osvaldo is ready.



From uja100 at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 20:47:34 2008
From: uja100 at yahoo.com (uja)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is the name of the song in the video
Message-ID: <705659.63264.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi,
Does someone know the name of the FIRST song and orchestra that Miguel Angel Zotto&nbsp;&amp; Daiana Guspero are dancing to in the following video:&nbsp; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwWnzODU20
&nbsp;
Thank you.
&nbsp;


      

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 23:39:06 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What is the name of the song in the video
Message-ID: <993889.56600.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tigre Viejo, Osvaldo Fresedo

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
From: uja <uja100 at yahoo.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:47:34 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] What is the name of the song in the video

Hi,
Does someone know the name of the FIRST song and orchestra that Miguel Angel Zotto&nbsp;&amp; Daiana Guspero are dancing to in the following video:&nbsp; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwWnzODU20
&nbsp;
Thank you.
&nbsp;


? ? ? 
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 02:52:58 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 23:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tips for Followers?
In-Reply-To: <20080524.141009.11209.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <935687.40153.qm@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:

> Before I went I scanned the last couple of years of
> TANGO-L archives for pointers on following, since I went
> to learn how to follow.  I found enough on leading to
> fill a doctoral dissertation but almost nothing on
> following - unless you count followers complaining about
> bad leading!

Then there are those fellows who seem to think that
following really well doesn't require work or classes.  In
another post, you mentioned about not seeing classes for
women.  I disagree.  I see them fairly regularly.  Perhaps
the women who complain aren't actually practicing the
material that they should on their own.  A class can only
take you so far, and the woman must work on self-awareness
on her own.  Go to a practica and see how many women will
be sitting waiting for a partner instead of practicing
their walk or doing their molinetes.

> Different partners wanted my right hand oriented
> differently and I had to learn to match their desire. 
> Luckily none wanted it oriented in a painful or awkward
> arrangement and I didn't have to resist their preference.

I found this comment interesting because it's something
that I personally don't notice with my partners, despite
the wide range of styles I dance.  This made me think that
either the man usually adjusts toward an embrace I feel
comfortable, or I'm just used to adjusting.  I think it's
more of the former, though.  Your comment also indicates
that you might not have learned to rotate your upper arm in
the socket before raising your right arm.  This keeps your
shoulders down, frees the arm from the shoulder, and allows
you to adjust your arm from the elbow or wrist.  

> My left arm rested along the top of her shoulders in
> close embrace.  I had to fine-tune how heavy or light I
> rested it.  Too little and our connection was poorer; too
> much and the weight would become painful...> A couple of
leaders positioned me further away and had me place my left
hand just above her biceps.  With this I had to learn not
only to keep my arm from drooping but also to grasp firmly
but not painfully.

I agree with Astrid's comments on this.  Also, one of the
things I learned to do early on was to keep my left arm
alive and to reposition it every so often.  This allows the
man's upper shoulders to breathe so that it doesn't feel
icky from constant pressure.  It also allows me to check
that I'm not letting my arm get heavy.  And, again, rotate
the arm in the socket before lifting it.  

> I had some trouble leaning into my partners the way they
> wanted and still need to work on this.  

The issue here might be more of your hurrying to get to the
next step than it is the lean.  This sensation can be
confused with needing a lean.  Another way of thinking
about it is separating the lead for a leg extension with
the lead to change weight.  It's like the follower says,
I'll extend my leg but I'll go in my own time.  I find that
as long as my follower doesn't rush away from me, then a
light lean isn't a problem.  If the problem really is the
lean then you might want to try using enough of a lean so
that your weight feels as if it's in the middle of your
foot (over the arch), but if your partner stepped away from
you, you'd be on your metatarsal and not falling forward or
grabbing with your toes.

In close-embrace turns, however, you might want to think of
exaggerating the forward lean to get the right feel.  Many
beginning followers send their energy into the space when
turning instead of sending their energy into their partner.
 The latter makes a more powerful turn.

> When moving a couple of my partners urged me to step back
> straighter and stretch my toes a bit to reach the floor. 
> This helped keep our knees from bumping together.  

The "step back straighter" sounds right if they are talking
about straightening out the knee, but I wonder if you've
been given poor advice (followers are always getting poor
advice from leaders who really can't interpret women's
technique well).  If you stretch back and reach with the
tips of the toes, you're liable to take too big a step.  It
sounds to me as if you need to think of your leg as
starting from the chest and stretch your leg from there
through it's natural line with your metatarsal.  Also, some
people need to think of reaching with their heel to get the
same effect.

> Any experienced followers out there who can give us
> newbies pointers on how to follow?  AND how better to
> learn to follow?

Same as the guys.  Practice, pay attention to details
intead of going through the motions, work on
self-awareness.  The best partners to work on basic
technique are quite often beginnning men who aren't trying
to do all these steps.  Those guys who simply walk and do
ochos are great for followers who simply want to practice
walking during an actual dance.  Make those guys feel like
they can do anything and you're on your way to being a good
follower.

Good luck on your following.

Trini de Pittsburgh

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



      

From lunapalacios at gmail.com  Fri May 30 12:30:02 2008
From: lunapalacios at gmail.com (Luna Palacios)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 13:30:02 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Move Over Flaco Danny.
In-Reply-To: <dbc550dd0805290814t29933a22v5f5e0a2aba3bd908@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbc550dd0805290814t29933a22v5f5e0a2aba3bd908@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dbc550dd0805300930tb70730bv38c43e61153129b3@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, thanks to all that responded to me in private and thanks to the
ones that posted the responces.
I understand your point Mario, thanks for making it "clear".........

Good tangos to all.

Abrazo.

Luna Palacios.

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Fri May 30 15:24:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
In-Reply-To: <4839E0A1.8060606@lavidacondeby.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080530202442.4036K@HIDEchrisjj.com>

Deby Novitz wrote:

> Our tango culture is so different than the cultures outside of Buenos
> Aires

Tango-L is truly unique. Where else could one find North Americans 
claiming Buenos Aires tango is "our culture"? ;)

> For whatever reason tango seems to bring out the worst in people 
> outside of Buenos Aires.

Speak for your own tango third world country Deby, but not for everywhere 
else, please.

--
Chris

From nina at earthnet.net  Fri May 30 16:08:28 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:08:28 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080530202442.4036K@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080530202442.4036K@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <20080530140828.1l752q95448cocg0@webmail.earthnet.net>

Chris, I agree.

I don't think that tango brings out the worst in people.  It brings  
out everything, including some very beautiful characteristics of  
people that otherwise might be hidden from the world.

But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any other  
part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal.  Many different  
kinds.

Nina


Quoting "Chris, UK" <tl2 at chrisjj.com>:

> Deby Novitz wrote:
>
>> Our tango culture is so different than the cultures outside of Buenos
>> Aires
>
> Tango-L is truly unique. Where else could one find North Americans
> claiming Buenos Aires tango is "our culture"? ;)
>
>> For whatever reason tango seems to bring out the worst in people
>> outside of Buenos Aires.
>
> Speak for your own tango third world country Deby, but not for everywhere
> else, please.
>
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 16:21:20 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 13:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
Message-ID: <488001.55733.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: Nina Pesochinsky nina at earthnet.net
...
> But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any other??part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal.? Many different?kinds.
Is there a story here? I am curious ...
...dubravko
?===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================


From nina at earthnet.net  Fri May 30 16:51:19 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:51:19 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
In-Reply-To: <488001.55733.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <488001.55733.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080530145119.595ryqcse84oowkw@webmail.earthnet.net>

Many stories, both witnessed and experienced over the last 12 years.   
Many stories were witnessed by many other people over the years  
because they involved well-known dancers.  Other stories are just  
stories, similar in their "once up on a time" and "forever after"  
scenarios.

Nina



Quoting Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com>:

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nina Pesochinsky nina at earthnet.net
> ...
>> But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any   
>> other??part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal.? Many   
>> different?kinds.
> Is there a story here? I am curious ...
> ...dubravko
> ?===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 15:46:16 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 12:46:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango - L Sharpshooters
Message-ID: <685441.23600.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Again, we see the snipers taking aim and sending their rounds into the hearts of those who
  would dare to post some of their own thoughts on Tango-L...Have you noticed fewer and fewer contributors venturing forth to post here? ...who needs it? 
  Isn't there a place where tangueros can share their thoughts and desires without being ridiculed? Where they actually observe the norms of decent behaviour towards each other..even mutual respect and support?
  http://www.dance-forums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9