From marqcertz at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 2 05:02:58 2008 From: marqcertz at yahoo.com.au (marquerito tjanos) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:02:58 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Tango-L] song name inquiry Message-ID: <804543.29266.qm@web36205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please identify the following song in youtube http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y thank you!! marqcertz Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/mail From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 09:48:09 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:48:09 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Song title Message-ID: The name of the song is: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y Y todavia te quiero (And I still love you) Lyrics: Abel aznar Music: Luciano Leocata Sergio PS. The way I hear it is recoded twice one on top of the other. _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood From joe.grohens at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 13:07:35 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:07:35 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Song title Message-ID: > > The name of the song is: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y Y > todavia te quiero (And I still love you) Lyrics: Abel aznar Music: > Luciano Leocata Sergio PS. The performance is by Carlos Di Sarli, with (I'm pretty sure) Roberto Florio singing. >> The way I hear it is recoded twice one on top of the other. Sergio - It's possible that you accidentally played the youtube video in two windows simultaneously. From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Tue Jun 3 12:21:04 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:21:04 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga admissions in Buenos Aires -- part 2 Message-ID: <003d01c8c596$1e691ab0$858f3dc8@JANIS> An Argentine friend told me that she went last Saturday afternoon to Enrique Rosich's Milonga de los Consagrados in Centro Region Leonesa which runs from 4:00 until 10:30. She was then invited to stay for the night milonga. She paid the 12 peso entrada for los Consagrados, but didn't have to pay the 20 peso entrada for the night milonga which lasts until 4:00a.m. She's a very attractive woman in her 40s who couldn't afford to pay the additional entrada. From larrynla at juno.com Tue Jun 3 14:47:07 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:47:07 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Coming to LA? Message-ID: <20080603.114707.23564.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com> If you come to LA feel free to contact me for advice about where to go dancing. But first check out a couple of useful websites. The first is mine, the second by Vladimir Estrin. Each has its advantages. Among mine, if you click on the address of a milonga a map will pop up showing its location. The map also lets you find a route from your location to the milonga and places to eat near the milonga. http://larrydla.home.att.net/ http://www.tangoaficionado.com/ If you see me at a milonga feel free to say hello. If you'd like a few dances to break the ice at the milonga let me know. To identify me check the following link which has a couple of photos. http://larrydla.home.att.net/aboutme.html Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Click to get a loan. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiekGrLVPG7zFVo52CpaILfZquBMNcvIiwpZT2wpyZ5I9UtCy/ From larrynla at juno.com Tue Jun 3 17:10:33 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:10:33 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires Message-ID: <20080603.141033.22525.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> A useful guide to tango in Greater Buenos Aires is maintained by the government. Among many web pages on the site is one that lets you find milongas for any day and locale. Clicking on a milonga name brings up a window with info about it, including a link to the milonga's web page if it has one. http://www.tangodata.gov.ar/ingles/home_milongas.php _______________________________________________________ To hear some travelers to Buenos Aires every milonga is alike. It's easy to understand why. It's natural for people to seek out and continue going to just those milongas which suit their tastes best. But when I went I was looking for as much variety as I could find, since my personal situation makes travel difficult and I might not ever be able to go back to BsAs. I went to noon-time practicas, matinee milongas, and late- night milongas. Each practica or milonga was as individual as their organizers and their regulars and seemed to have its own special atmosphere. On any weekend night in Greater BsAs there are more than forty milongas to choose from, so some organizers may work to make their milongas stand out from the crowd. I went to three young-peoples milongas, and each of them was very different. One was a night club for twenty- somethings with several hundred people packed together and the bars doing very good business. Half the time a Beatles-look-alike band played only Beatles music, the other half a DJ played traditional tangos but without cortinas. A second was for late-teens and early twenties and had a traditional milonga organization. This seemed to be more social- than dance-oriented. The third was a milonga for teens, some of whom seemed as young as thirteen and the oldest barely eighteen. The dancers there seemed very serious about tango, had lots of training in both traditional and show tango, and did advanced figures very compactly and within the flow. I had the weird feeling that the dancers at this third milonga were all grownups despite being the youngest of them all. I also went to the most expensive milonga I could find. Everyone there seemed to be professionals and dressed fashionably and well. They also seemed to be the tallest dancers in the city! I saw a few men with short haircuts who acted as if they were movers and shakers, possibly government or military officials or business executives. Each was with a trophy wife half his age. Or, more likely, a high-class hooker. Each had that look that I'd seen so often while a military policeman - "I've seen everything and I am not impressed." I was presented with a hostess, very beautiful and well- dressed, who the host said was an expert swing dancer. (They were playing a swing set.) I told her I was sorry but I only danced tango. Speaking of swing, one older man in a beautiful grey suit and short white beard danced it (and tango) so elegantly and with such enjoyment that I wondered if he was a teacher or former professional or milonguero de swing. I also went to many of what one talky cab-driver called "old peoples' milongas" though to me the age distributions seemed to be all over the place. They were in all sorts of venues. These included a former gymnasium with basketball boundary markings on the floor, a thirties-style former night club, a modern night club, a confiteria, and a large convention hall. Some of these milongas had several hundred guests. One crowd I estimated at well over a thousand. Several of the milongas had tandas of other kinds of dancing interspersed among tango tandas. These included "tropical": cumbias, merengues, rumbas, and others but no salsa. (Salsa and cumbia occupy almost the same dance space, and salsa is popular enough in Argentina to have its own salsa-only clubs.) Also swing dancing. We tend to think of swing as an American dance and say only Americans can really dance it. But swing has long been popular in Argentina and some of the best swing dancing I've ever seen were in Argentine milongas. (I began dancing rock-n-roll as a teenager and have done other kinds of swing.) The spirit of any dance refuses to be prisoned within national boundaries. That's certainly true of the wild exuberance of swing, which the Nazis suppressed in Germany in the run-up to WW II. What were your experiences with Argentine milongas? How far from the stereotypes did some vary? What practices seemed common? Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Click to get a cash advance. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiekCoYKOgrWupzvODTTrrO6FrZQettUzCTKX1QGrVf1aqNl4/ From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Tue Jun 3 19:28:26 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:28:26 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] VI Campeonato Metropolitano de Baile de Tango -- photos Message-ID: <00b001c8c5d3$015bbda0$bb8f3dc8@JANIS> http://www.tangodata.gov.ar/home_6_metropolitano_galeria_de_fotos.php From christian.luethen at gmx.net Tue Jun 3 19:50:04 2008 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:50:04 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] VI Campeonato Metropolitano de Baile de Tango -- photos In-Reply-To: <00b001c8c5d3$015bbda0$bb8f3dc8@JANIS> References: <00b001c8c5d3$015bbda0$bb8f3dc8@JANIS> Message-ID: <20080603235004.320270@gmx.net> Thanks, Janis! Strange enough: the deeplink you posted works but if you try to jump up to the principal page of tangodata.gov.ar there comes up a with page stating "HackeD by -Nano-" ... and a pop-up-windows tries to deploy [which my firefox prevented]. ;-( > http://www.tangodata.gov.ar/home_6_metropolitano_galeria_de_fotos.php > . -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From paul.shri at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:19:41 2008 From: paul.shri at gmail.com (Paul Shrivastava) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:19:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4846CEAD.9030706@gmail.com> Larry, Thanks for sharing LA Tango websites. I will be in Anaheim (Aug 10 Monday) presenting at a conference of the Academy of Management. My symposium focuses on using Tango to teach Management skills of leadership, communication, teamwork, risk taking etc. The audience is Management professors from around the country and abroad. The conference has 10,000 attendees but our session will be for about 150 people. So I have about 5 couples simulating a mini Milonga doing three dances. And then we discus how Tango embodies these management concepts and can be used for learning them. After the presentation we will offer a beginner lesson, and then take interested people to a local Milonga. So I will recommend your web sites to them. It is possible we may need a lead for one of our followers. Would you or someone in LA be interested? This is a volunteer effort to take Tango into a new venue. Paul Shrivastava, Ph.D. Tel 610-737-7333 www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/shrivast From luv2dancetango at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 14:55:34 2008 From: luv2dancetango at yahoo.com (Darlene Robertson) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango, Vol 27, Issue 4 3. Milongas of Buenos Aires (larrynla@juno.com) Message-ID: <405410.65018.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Larry et al, I just returned from BsAs?and?am thankful for the timeliness of this discussion.? What I found to be interesting is that our BELOVED cabaceo isn't used everywhere.? Men simply had no problem asking me directly to dance and I witnesses first hand that others were asked directly (Argentines by Argentines, etc.). MOST of the time the cabaceo was the method but it just wasn't an "all or nothing" experience for me.? This was at Nino Bien, Salon Canning, Practica X, Villa Malcolm, La Viruta, Porteno y Bailarain, and?Club Gricel.? As Larry mentioned, there are MANY daily milongas to choose from.? I just asked locals where they were going the next night, etc. and there was usually a consensus.? To that end, and because my trip was so short, I never went to Confiteria Ideal (and it was only mentioned as a place tourists go). I would like to point out that none of the milongas I attended were LESS than $ 15 pesos.? Most of the time I arrived to them by Subte (with a few exciting bus rides thrown in for good measure),?at 90 centavos per ride,?and the taxi rides back home were also around $ 15 pesos. One of the men I met had been to a milonga North the the city and he was complaining about how "stupid" they were in that they didn't use the cabaceo at all. It was a great experience and I have some non-tango hilarious situations to round out the trip! I was also?excited to find Practice Sneakers that are HEELS at Tango8 (at LaValle & Anchorena in the Abasto neighborhood) as well as picked up more?Traspie and?Comme il Faut pairs than I originally planned. Abrazos y Besos Y'ALL, Darlene Message: 3 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:10:33 GMT From: "larrynla at juno.com" Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires To: tango-L at mit.edu Message-ID: <20080603.141033.22525.0 at webmail20.dca.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What were your experiences with Argentine milongas?? How far from the stereotypes did some vary?? What practices seemed common? Larry de Los Angeles From larrynla at juno.com Wed Jun 4 17:06:57 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:06:57 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires - 2 Message-ID: <20080604.140657.17176.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> Several people have emailed me asking for the names of the milongas I went to. It was several years ago; I don't remember. The curious might look at my writing web page for some specifics. It has a link to a diary of my visit, written when I got back home, and expanded from daily posts to TANGO-L. The diary does not include all my experiences. For instance, since I was in the Hotel Bristol only a block away from Confiteria Ideal I sometimes stopped by there two or three times a day for various reasons, such as to meet someone. (Ideal is open every day of the week. And I highly recommend el Bristol. It's inexpensive, centrally located, and recently renovated to a high standard.) http://www.hotelbristol.com.ar/english/home.htm I also did not mention the non-tango dance places I went to, such as the night-club with a goth-looking crowd out front. Which I found out when I got inside was for gays of both sexes looking to hook up. Before I could escape two French women asked me to sit with them to ask me about Los Angeles, where they were going next. http://larrydla.home.att.net/writing.html _____________________EXCERPTS FROM TANGO DIARY_________________________ I open the window and look out. The tops of buildings show even less care than their fronts. The people, however, bely that overall impression. The economy may be depressed, but the people do not seem to be. This Sunday afternoon they are out in the streets, strolling, busy, seemingly happy and full of energy. They are all ages and sexes, casually but often very nicely dressed. Perhaps Paris was very like this a few years after WW2. The bed is comfortable. After settling in I crash, leaving the window open for a cool, light breeze. When I wake at 3:00 in the afternoon I feel amazingly good. I clean up, dress, go downstairs, excited at my first free moments in Buenos Aires. I put my valuables in the safe at the lobby then go outside. There is sun coming through the clouds and the temperature is perfect. Just walking outside onto the sidewalk is thrilling. I am here! Across the street is a little convenience store. I buy just a snack and a drink, though I am very hungry. I am eager to see the city. I go a half block East, walk North on Nueve de Julio. This street is so wide (20 or more lanes, a full city block in width) that it is like walking in a canyon. The cool breeze rushes down 9 de Julio, ruffles my hair, bathes my face, just as it would in a desert canyon. Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Beauty School Programs - Get the career you've always wanted. Click Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiglKzOqCae9ag5gK3joAopApq7A6HIDDULAKinUBTGuisPdQ/ From christian.luethen at gmx.net Wed Jun 4 17:22:08 2008 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:22:08 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires - 2 In-Reply-To: <20080604.140657.17176.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> References: <20080604.140657.17176.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <20080604212208.189930@gmx.net> Larry de Los Angeles wrote to Tango-L: > Several people have emailed me asking for the names of the milongas I > went to. It was several years ago; I don't remember. Those who are *really* interested might try to search the Tango-L archives. >From what I remember from those postings to Tango-L you also kept us very well informed about which McDonalds was open at what time of the night before you managed to get to your first milonga on day three or so. It was quite an amazing read, I have to admit =;-o. Christian -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Jun 4 19:21:43 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:21:43 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires - 2 In-Reply-To: <20080604212208.189930@gmx.net> References: <20080604.140657.17176.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> <20080604212208.189930@gmx.net> Message-ID: <421B2E641EAF43448FDA18410426C9FD@homePC> The first one or two postings expressed your surprise at how your body felt after a long overseas flight (hellooo?). The first 3 of them dealt with how you kept changing hotels night after night, trying to find one where people did not smoke, and how you locked yourself into your room and then smoke came in from under your door and you tried to tape it shut and so on. And then you finally got a milonga or two and reported how the portenas looked right through you, noone danced with you and you were quite happy to discover some Anerican tourist women to spend the time with. And then you claimed a copyright for those reports in case anyone wanted to steal that valuable information.... Christian: Larry de Los Angeles wrote to Tango-L: > Several people have emailed me asking for the names of the milongas I > went to. It was several years ago; I don't remember. Those who are *really* interested might try to search the Tango-L archives. >From what I remember from those postings to Tango-L you also kept us very >well informed about which McDonalds was open at what time of the night >before you managed to get to your first milonga on day three or so. It was >quite an amazing read, I have to admit =;-o. Christian -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From christian.luethen at gmx.net Wed Jun 4 19:45:34 2008 From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:45:34 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas of Buenos Aires - 2 In-Reply-To: <421B2E641EAF43448FDA18410426C9FD@homePC> References: <20080604.140657.17176.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> <20080604212208.189930@gmx.net> <421B2E641EAF43448FDA18410426C9FD@homePC> Message-ID: <20080604234534.17820@gmx.net> to clarify: astrid is refering to larry's old postings on tango-l. I never posted my initial experiences in bs.as. to tango-l! christian astrid wrote: > The first one or two postings expressed your surprise at how your body > felt > after a long overseas flight (hellooo?). The first 3 of them dealt with > how > you kept changing hotels night after night, trying to find one where > people > did not smoke, and how you locked yourself into your room and then smoke > came in from under your door and you tried to tape it shut and so on. And > then you finally got a milonga or two and reported how the portenas looked > right through you, noone danced with you and you were quite happy to > discover some Anerican tourist women to spend the time with. > And then you claimed a copyright for those reports in case anyone wanted > to > steal that valuable information.... > > Christian: > Larry de Los Angeles wrote to Tango-L: > > Several people have emailed me asking for the names of the milongas I > > went to. It was several years ago; I don't remember. > > Those who are *really* interested might try to search the Tango-L > archives. > >>From what I remember from those postings to Tango-L you also kept us > very > >well informed about which McDonalds was open at what time of the night > >before you managed to get to your first milonga on day three or so. It > was > >quite an amazing read, I have to admit =;-o. > > Christian > > -- > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- *********************************************** just my personal 50th of an Euro *********************************************** christian.luethen at gmx.net *********************************************** How inappropriate to call this planet earth ... ... as clearly it is ocean! *********************************************** Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 19:57:53 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The cabeceo and its use ( Was Vol ## ???) Message-ID: <690116.90536.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/4/08, Darlene Robertson wrote: > > I just returned from BsAs and am thankful for the > timeliness of this discussion. What I found to be > interesting is that our BELOVED cabaceo isn't used > everywhere. Men simply had no problem asking me directly > to dance and I witnesses first hand that others were asked > directly (Argentines by Argentines, etc.). In a few practicas, that is true and in Nino Bien on one night only. You may think you are seeing Argentines asking women at their table, but what they are doing is greeting the women they already know and whom they know wish to dance that particular set with them. They may have done a cabeceo which you did not see - it can be no more than a flicker of the eyes or a raise of the eyebrows and a slight smile in return. I often see guys headed my direction from a hundred feet away and I know they are coming for me because to get a cabeceo from that distance might be impractical. But any man whom I do not know who shows up with his hand out for a dance is ignored. That is the trick of the really bad dancers who are taking advantage of the tourist women who would unlikely turn them down out of politeness. And the milongas are now about 40% bad dancers and it gets worse every year. A newcomer to the milongas gets rushed by all the men: the good, the bad, and the smelly. When you are sitting with the portenas and you can speak castellano you will know how they/we go out of our way NOT to look at certain guys even if they have us in their gunsights for 30 minutes. One guy told me he knew when I didn't want to dance because I took my glasses off and when I put them on, I was ready for a cabeceo. It is unwise to make generalizations after such a limited experience. You will not be reprimanded for breaking The Code, but you will be noticed and not in a good way. From larrynla at juno.com Wed Jun 4 23:02:48 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:02:48 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Confiteria Ideal Message-ID: <20080604.200248.28322.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> Darlene writes---------> I never went to Confiteria Ideal (and it was only mentioned as a place tourists go). The person who told you that was wrong. Certainly tourists go there, but the place is hardly deluged with them. It's very popular with Argentines, for several reasons. It is centrally located. Easy to get to. There are many restaurants and hotels nearby, plus many kinds of shops. Classes are offered every day, often several. On the bottom floor you can have dinner and see a tango show. There's a milonga every day of the week on the second floor. See the following link listing them. http://www.confiteriaideal.com/milongas.htm Furthermore, it is a place tourists SHOULD see. Scroll down the page just mentioned to the photos and you'll see why. It's a beautiful place which captures much of the history of the city. Further, tango turistas tend to be reverential of tango customs and well-behaved. Naturally there are always a few who transgress from ignorance or arrogance. But then that's true of Argentines as well. (What? You thought all milongueros are angels!) Another benefit when I went to BsAs was that many announcements of new events and places to dance can be found there. It is also a good place to rendezvous. Do not let anyone keep you away from the wonderful Confiteria Ideal. Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Great rates on vacations. Book now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifjEtC9yprAqmnJViyAvZpqNaLY4XgpNxn7D7km30vJb3xg2/ From robinctara at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:19:56 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:19:56 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Confiteria Ideal In-Reply-To: <20080604.200248.28322.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> References: <20080604.200248.28322.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860806050719j7ff9f8b3g1376de4a00932b2b@mail.gmail.com> Actually, ALL the places Darlene cites are the places most frequented by tourists in Buenos Aires (Tango tourists, at least) La Confiteria Ideal is a classic, and not to be missed. I'm not implying that it need be frequented, just experienced. I suggest that people visiting Buenos Aires hoping to learn more about Tango, try choosing one of the milongas that the tourist crowd never goes to. Or try a familiar spot on a different night. Or spend a couple of weeks going only to milongas in a particular neighborhood. There are as many ways to experience Tango in Buenos Aires as there are reasons to travel there. Best, Robin Tara Tara Tango Shoes http://www.22tangoshoes.com On 6/4/08, larrynla at juno.com wrote: > Darlene writes---------> I never went to Confiteria Ideal (and it was > only mentioned as a place tourists go). > > The person who told you that was wrong. Certainly tourists go there, > but the place is hardly deluged with them. It's very popular with > Argentines, for several reasons. > > It is centrally located. Easy to get to. There are many restaurants and > hotels nearby, plus many kinds of shops. Classes are offered every day, > often several. On the bottom floor you can have dinner and see a tango > show. There's a milonga every day of the week on the second floor. See > the following link listing them. > > http://www.confiteriaideal.com/milongas.htm > > Furthermore, it is a place tourists SHOULD see. Scroll down the page > just mentioned to the photos and you'll see why. It's a beautiful place > which captures much of the history of the city. > > Further, tango turistas tend to be reverential of tango customs and > well-behaved. Naturally there are always a few who transgress from > ignorance or arrogance. But then that's true of Argentines as well. > (What? You thought all milongueros are angels!) > > Another benefit when I went to BsAs was that many announcements of new > events and places to dance can be found there. It is also a good place > to rendezvous. > > Do not let anyone keep you away from the wonderful Confiteria Ideal. > > > Larry de Los Angeles > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Great rates on vacations. Book now! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifjEtC9yprAqmnJViyAvZpqNaLY4XgpNxn7D7km30vJb3xg2/ > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From jayrabe at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 13:30:56 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:30:56 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills In-Reply-To: <4846CEAD.9030706@gmail.com> References: <4846CEAD.9030706@gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul, What an exciting project. I sincerely home you'll be posting some followup on how it goes. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 16:34:43 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <320843.84344.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In six days I will be presenting in an Organizational Behavior Teaching Conference on the use of AT principles to elicit key concepts in organizational leadership. Will post the results of the conference later. Amaury --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Jay Rabe wrote: > From: Jay Rabe > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills > To: paul.shri at gmail.com, tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:30 AM > Paul, > > What an exciting project. I sincerely home you'll > be posting some followup on how it goes. > > J > TangoMoments.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social > sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. > https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:19:23 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Academia and Tango Message-ID: <785028.74936.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ..no wonder it's so freak'en difficult! ....Moving towards a new paradign in multi-task management. ...ok, that was my Tango-L sniper shot...it had some humor and very little bite not like using the exploding head ammunition that some sharpshooters use here. From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 21:35:30 2008 From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:35:30 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills In-Reply-To: <4846CEAD.9030706@gmail.com> References: <4846CEAD.9030706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3eff99210806051835l757dffd2pfbb6930353284b26@mail.gmail.com> I think I've seen something similar on youtube. Someone dong a presentation on business/negotiation skills, using tango as a metaphore (making initial contact, getting a feel of where the other person is, establishing trust, making and answering to requests, possible disagreements along the way, finding a common ground etc. etc. ). I'll post the link if I come across it over the next day or two. On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Paul Shrivastava wrote: > Larry, Thanks for sharing LA Tango websites. I will be in Anaheim (Aug > 10 Monday) presenting at a conference of the Academy of Management. My > symposium focuses on using Tango to teach Management skills of > leadership, communication, teamwork, risk taking etc. The audience is > Management professors from around the country and abroad. The > conference has 10,000 attendees but our session will be for about 150 > people. So I have about 5 couples simulating a mini Milonga doing three > dances. And then we discus how Tango embodies these management concepts > and can be used for learning them. > After the presentation we will offer a beginner lesson, and then take > interested people to a local Milonga. So I will recommend your web > sites to them. > > It is possible we may need a lead for one of our followers. Would you > or someone in LA be interested? This is a volunteer effort to take > Tango into a new venue. > > Paul Shrivastava, Ph.D. > Tel 610-737-7333 > www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/shrivast > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Having a ball in Buenos Aires, -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki tangotrails.blogspot.com From tobias_conradi at yahoo.de Fri Jun 6 06:18:36 2008 From: tobias_conradi at yahoo.de (Mr tobias conradi) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:18:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tango-L] festivals.tango.info/2008 - 82 festivals Message-ID: <274511.74967.qm@web26301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi all, until now there are 82 festivals at http://festivals.tango.info/2008 See the next upcoming at http://festivals.tango.info/ register a festival http://data.tango.info/index.php?register=festival you may also like to put the announcement online immediatly via wiki.tango.info, which is separate from festivals.tango.info http://wiki.tango.info/calendar/?action=addevent best regards Tobias -- Tobias Conradi http://eng.tango.info http://festivals.tango.info http://wiki.tango.info http://gmap.tango.info http://info.tango.info __________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail. Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang. http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 10:47:33 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Igor Milongando...most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga..this guy can. http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=t8wXbuJ0SYM alternative Milonga music ...but it works. http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k can never show this enough..and leading in high heels yet..not easy! http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y ..carrying it a bit further.. http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=14GzFOPmM4Q&feature=related From eyegee at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 6 11:18:24 2008 From: eyegee at twcny.rr.com (Ira Goldstein) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:18:24 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] lyrics translation Message-ID: Hi, all-- I understand enough spanish to get the gist of these lyrics (beautiful!). Would someone please assist with a good translation? Thanks! Ira Ithaca, NY Dos corazones Waltz Music: Francisco Canaro Lyric: Ivo Pelay Cual dos gotas de claro roc?o que en la noche se besan calladas, Cual dos ondas que van impulsadas a fundirse en la orilla del r?o. Como el fuego que envuelve el est?o, como nube que abraza otra nube, as? son tu cari?o y el m?o que se funden en un solo ideal. Con tu coraz?n en mi coraz?n el lucero azul brillar? mejor. Con tu coraz?n en mi coraz?n todo en el jard?n hablar? de amor. Notas cristalinas llenar?n tu o?do y una luz divina nos envolver?. Fijar? mis ojos, en tus negros ojos, unir? mis labios, a tus labios rojos. Y mi inspiraci?n volar? al seguir, con tu coraz?n, en mi coraz?n. Cual sonoras campanas que funden sus repiques en una armon?a. Como rayos de sol que confunden su fulgor con la gloria del d?a. Como un son que se liga a otros sones, como sombra que besa otra sombra, as? son nuestros dos corazones que se funden en un solo ideal. From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:47:07 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:47:07 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <7248C665-B6EF-44BE-8D3E-92CCB2561044@gmail.com> > most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga Interesting. I did not know that! I learn so much from tango-l. >..this guy can. Agreed. From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 12:06:37 2008 From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:06:37 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] lyrics translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3eff99210806060906o437bf171v89134635eeda9511@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ira, This is my favourite vals, and the fact that hardly any Australian DJ's that I've encountered play it (I've been dancing for around 6 years, yet I've only heard it 3 times) makes it even more special. The last time I heard it was in early July, last year. My partner put on a surprise 30th birthday milonga for me, and got the band thet he had hired for the night to learn and play it for the occasion (he is still earning brownie points for that). Anyway, back to your request, you can find a translation on Jake Spatz' website, at: http://tangodc.com/lyrics/doscorazones.htm 2008/6/6 Ira Goldstein : > Hi, all-- > > I understand enough spanish to get the gist of these lyrics (beautiful!). > Would someone please assist with a good translation? > > Thanks! > > Ira > Ithaca, NY > > > Dos corazones > Waltz > Music: Francisco Canaro > Lyric: Ivo Pelay > > > Cual dos gotas de claro roc?o > que en la noche se besan calladas, > Cual dos ondas que van impulsadas > a fundirse en la orilla del r?o. > Como el fuego que envuelve el est?o, > como nube que abraza otra nube, > as? son tu cari?o y el m?o > que se funden en un solo ideal. > > Con tu coraz?n en mi coraz?n > el lucero azul brillar? mejor. > Con tu coraz?n en mi coraz?n > todo en el jard?n hablar? de amor. > Notas cristalinas llenar?n tu o?do > y una luz divina nos envolver?. > Fijar? mis ojos, en tus negros ojos, > unir? mis labios, a tus labios rojos. > Y mi inspiraci?n volar? al seguir, > con tu coraz?n, en mi coraz?n. > > Cual sonoras campanas que funden > sus repiques en una armon?a. > Como rayos de sol que confunden > su fulgor con la gloria del d?a. > Como un son que se liga a otros sones, > como sombra que besa otra sombra, > as? son nuestros dos corazones > que se funden en un solo ideal. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki tangotrails.blogspot.com From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 13:03:29 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <277007.8414.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Joe Grohens To: tango-l at mit.edu Cc: Joe Grohens Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 11:47:07 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend > > most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga > > Interesting. I did not know that! I learn so much from tango-l. WHAT? I mean, you can't be serious!!!!! Are you not mocking the original "inspiration for the weekend" post? I mean, I like and encourage Mario's asking questions and such and apparently wanting to learn, but he?displayed absolutely no substantial knowledge so far on any subject of tango to make him any sort of authority to pass judgment like "most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga..this guy can." It is not so much that Mario's judgment?is right or wrong but that someone fairly new to the subject should not volunteer his or her opinions before paying the proper dues. There are those on this list who, with even less knowledge, can not?discard the?misjudgments and, in this respect, Mario is doing them a disfavor. ? This whole Mario thing sounds like one big joke. Mario, please do continue to participate but resist the urge to pass general sort of judgements unless they are clearly just personal preferences to which you are certainly entitled. ? ...dubravko ? P.S. I have communicated with Igor in private about that milonga clip and our views on it coincide. Since it was a private communication, it will remain so. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 14:21:37 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:21:37 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Mario wrote: > most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga Check out how some milongueros dance milonga. View the videos by Pocho and El Flaco Dany: http://www.centraltango.com/TangoInfo/VideoTangoMilonguero.htm One thing that is immediately apparent in these videos is that the dancing is unhurried. Yes, the milongas are slow Canaro, but they are also dancing a traspie rhythm. The unhurried look is due in large part to smaller steps, but also to collecting and waiting for partner collection before taking the next step. This unhurried dancing to milonga is a characteristic that differentiates the milongueros from average dancers, not just outside Argentina, but even within Argentina. For example, one can see a variety of speeds of dancing to this fast milonga on a low density floor at the Lo de Celia milonga in Buenos Aires: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfilkXAOxo&feature=related I cannot verify that the faster dancers are porten~os. Ron From buraktango at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 15:09:11 2008 From: buraktango at gmail.com (Burak Ozkosem) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:09:11 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: References: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1212779354.1656C1A0@ff6.dngr.org> Ron has a point, however, dancing on tango beat with couple syncopations does not mean milonga dancing necessarily. I would prefer to choose calm dancing compared to unsuccessfull chasing of the music. Does it make sense? We teach milonga technique after we teach tango technique, this won't for work leaders unfortunately. Advancing in musicality requires several skills such as .Manipulation and recombination of the rhythm .transition between staccato and legato concepts .developing awareness on thematic vs sequence focused patterns (cruzada, ocho cortado etc.) Here some different milonga dancing styles by great dancers If you have no idea or confused about what I'm talking about, feel free to write me directly. Burak Chicago www.tangoeclectique.com Www.chicagotangoweek.com :: Sent from my T-Mobile Sidekick Slide? :: From melvillefox at aol.com Fri Jun 6 15:48:39 2008 From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:48:39 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <1212779354.1656C1A0@ff6.dngr.org> References: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1212779354.1656C1A0@ff6.dngr.org> Message-ID: <8CA962573627F51-230-105D@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> From: Burak Ozkosem To: Tango Society of Central Illinois ; Tango-L Sent: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Advancing in musicality requires several skills such as .Manipulation and recombination of the rhythm .transition between staccato and legato concepts .developing awareness on thematic vs sequence focused patterns (cruzada, ocho cortado etc.) Here some different milonga dancing styles by great dancers ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- How about just listening to the music and connecting your movements to it? Geesh. All this intellectualizing about the music. I've never seen it get anyone to 'advance their musicality'. It gets people to dance with their heads instead of their bodies. I doubt the milongueros think about this complexity when they dance. They just feel the music and move to it. Leave this for tango academia, not the dance floor. Mel From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:54:44 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <427292.38406.qm@web39707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Mario and all, Mario wrote, <<<>>>>> OK, I've met Igor, and we sometimes correspond. He's a good dancer, and I like him. But Mario, this video you've posted is not a great milonga. Its more like a sped-up tango with no pauses. Everything is too big (look at the size of some of the steps!). Everything is the same speed. There are no traspie steps. It does not have the look and feel of a milonga except that they step on every beat, which I don't like anyway, but some people have the idea that milonga must be danced that way. Yes, its a performance, as are all these I've posted below, which we must take into consideration when we watch all this stuff. Usually performances are danced differently than they would be otherwise. And while there are fewer good dancers and teachers of milonga (good milonga, in my opinion, is the hardest of the three genres), the USA does have some teachers that are very good at it. While I can pick stuff out of any performance that I don't care for, these four videos are of US teachers dancing milonga that showcase the look and feel of milonga done well. I'm sure there are more, but I picked these out in 5 minutes (I'd never seen these videos before today). I would also like to say that I'm not a great dancer of milonga....maybe one of these days! http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SxEH_eYzC3M http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKBvfg0yq4 http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=souF9ZZPAjA http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zdjocXq05es See? No head-exploding ammunition! Regards, Michael Figart II Houston Tx From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 21:11:49 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:11:49 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <1212779354.1656C1A0@ff6.dngr.org> References: <687194.18012.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1212779354.1656C1A0@ff6.dngr.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Burak Ozkosem wrote: > Ron has a point, however, dancing on tango beat with couple syncopations > does not mean milonga dancing necessarily. I would prefer to choose calm > dancing compared to unsuccessfull chasing of the music. Does it make sense? Burak, It's not exactly clear what you're saying. Since I presented videos of Pocho and Dany Garcia dancing what appeared to be milonga, tt sounds like you're saying that Pocho and Dany Garcia are dancing 'on tango beat with couple synchopations' instead of milonga. If that is correct, could you please clarify how Pocho and Dany can dance milonga better. I will be seeing them next month so I can convey your suggestions to them if you like. Cheers, Ron From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Jun 7 12:45:42 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 01:45:42 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <427292.38406.qm@web39707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <427292.38406.qm@web39707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> I have checked and you are right, Michael. He is not using any milonga steps, it is just like tango, different rhythm. However, the links you posted, the 2nd and the 4th are not very good either. I don't know much about US teachers, but I personally think, Pablo Veron and Jorge Torres are great milonga dancers. Pablo I have only seen in that movie, but I have danced with Jorge, and he is fabulous. He is much more than just a stage dancer, he feels like velvet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6IeJGYqKrc by the way, while looking for more milonga I came across a clip of El Indio dancing chacarera. Or is it Gato? Never seen him do that before. ; ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRUQi-9k44M&feature=related - ---- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Figart II" > While I can pick stuff out of any performance that I > don't care for, these four videos are of US teachers > dancing milonga that showcase the look and feel of > milonga done well. I'm sure there are more, but I > picked these out in 5 minutes (I'd never seen these > videos before today). > I would also like to say that I'm not a great dancer > of milonga....maybe one of these days! > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SxEH_eYzC3M > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKBvfg0yq4 > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=souF9ZZPAjA > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zdjocXq05es > > See? No head-exploding ammunition! > Regards, > Michael Figart II > Houston Tx > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 14:45:53 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> Message-ID: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> THIS is milonga. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU All others are wannabes. Watch all of the YouTube clips of Dany 'el Flaco' Garcia. He is El Rey de la milonga. And he can also dance awesome swing and salsa and tango and vals. You will note the absence of what I call 'the polka look' to his milongas. He maintains a close embrace and barely moves his upper torso. He doesn't bounce and his followers do not whip their hips around. He lets the music tell him what steps to take. He doesn't try to outrun the music or his partner. And before you criticize 'all US teachers', Mario, maybe you could tell us which of those teachers you have had milonga classes with. From jayrabe at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 15:32:05 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:32:05 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I appreciate Dany's understated style, and as a kind and gentle man he has no peers. He does true milonga steps rather than short and quick tango steps, but frankly it would be hard to look bad with such an exceptional follower as Silvina. For my money, there is no better milonga than what Jorge Nel does. Here's the performance he did at the 2007 Portland TangoFest. It's substantially if not completely choreographed, but marvelous and playful regardless, and in between the showmanship, it's undeniably milonga. Search for about 50 more on YouTube. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 From jayrabe at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 15:33:19 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:33:19 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Dance floors In-Reply-To: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience in putting a dancefloor of any kind on top of a carpet? J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback From jayrabe at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 15:41:35 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:41:35 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - youtube link to Jorge Nel In-Reply-To: References: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, forgot to include the link... http://youtube.com/watch?v=bZFvXgwXdos J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From melvillefox at aol.com Sat Jun 7 16:15:55 2008 From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:15:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - youtube link to Jorge Nel In-Reply-To: References: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA96F26CF5DC87-514-425D@webmail-dd08.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Jay Rabe To: Tango-L Sent: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 2:41 pm Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - youtube link to Jorge Nel http://youtube.com/watch?v=bZFvXgwXdos ---------------------- This is a joke, right? It seems to be a comedy routine. With kicks and hops and jumps, as well as being off rhythm at times, this is exactly what people should not imitate. It HAS to be an intentional demonstration of BAD MILONGA. Mel From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Jun 7 16:19:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <427292.38406.qm@web39707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Michael wrote: > There are no traspie steps. It does not have the look and feel of a > milonga except that they step on every beat, which I don't like anyway, > but some people have the idea that milonga must be danced that way. Some people have the idea milonga must have traspie. They're wrong too. Astrid wrote: > the links you posted, the 2nd and the 4th are not very good either. Agreed. Having criticised Igor for "Everything is too big (look at the size of some of the steps!)" Michael then recommends a video of US teacher doing steps at least as large. Odd. -- Chris From jayrabe at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 17:29:49 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:29:49 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - youtube link to Jorge Nel In-Reply-To: <8CA96F26CF5DC87-514-425D@webmail-dd08.sysops.aol.com> References: <7FF1732716524C638A2A56184DB86E87@homePC> <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CA96F26CF5DC87-514-425D@webmail-dd08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Mel, It is indeed a comedy routine - intended to entertain - which it does, judging from the crowd's reaction. But as I said, in between the showmanship, there is still lots of genuine milonga. As to being off-rhythm, that's no doubt the well-known artifact of YouTube videos. As to emulating, I hadn't figured this audience would need to be reminded to not socially copy the obvious gimmicks. I'd figured they could see the real milonga steps in between the grandstanding. Couldn't you? Check out some of Jorge's other YouTube videos that are more milonga and less performance. But I personally enjoyed the fun and playfulness of this one. I appreciate genuine milonga. I appreciate good showmanship. Jorge does both. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From irenekyho at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 11:31:44 2008 From: irenekyho at hotmail.com (Irene Ho) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:31:44 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Article on Camicando 2008 In-Reply-To: <804505.96715.qm@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <804505.96715.qm@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Paradiso" website in Toronto has just published my report on the 2008 CaMiCando (Canyengue, Milonga and Candombe) Festival in Buenos Aires: http://torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com/ The festival is organized by MoCCA (Movimiento Cultural Canyengue Argentino) , a non-profit organization which seeks to preserve and promote the "roots" of tango as expressed in the music and dance of Canyengue, Milonga and Candombe - the precursors of Tango. The report includes excerpts of my interviews with Martha Anton, Roxina, Adrian and Jorgo of MoCCA. The report also includes the link to the video of the Canyengue performance of Adrian and Roxina at La Baldosa in the closing night of the CaMiCando festival this year. Man Yung and I have participated in CaMiCando in 2007 and 2008 and we had a fantastic time there every year. I've been checking the CaMiCando website www.camicando.org, and I understand that more detailed information will be available in July 2008. Irene Ho www.ireneandmanyung.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ From natiber at charter.net Sun Jun 8 13:49:39 2008 From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:49:39 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Looking for a Youtube clip of Milonga Message-ID: <12EB2F31-AA84-4618-97C9-D00DACA33508@charter.net> Sometime ago someone posted a youtube clip which included an older gentleman (white beard, rather bald), dancing Milonga with a younger women (black hair, black dress). I thought he was a good social dancer. At the beginning of the clip there is a women, at the entrance to the Milonga venue, speaking spanish, wearing a red dress. If anyone recognizes this, I would appreciate your e-mailing me the info. for this clip or posting it on Tango L. Thanks! Norm From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sun Jun 8 13:58:57 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 02:58:57 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <840B9FF76F7E434D854137A727237339@homePC> Nancy wrote: > THIS is milonga. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU > > All others are wannabes. No, Nancy, THIS is a milonga... ; ) My kind of milonga, anyway... Astrid From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sun Jun 8 14:57:19 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 03:57:19 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <840B9FF76F7E434D854137A727237339@homePC> References: <503079.7974.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <840B9FF76F7E434D854137A727237339@homePC> Message-ID: oh, I can't believe it, I forgot to add the link. Here is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKII5I_qSnA > > Nancy wrote: > >> THIS is milonga. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU >> >> All others are wannabes. > I wrote: > No, Nancy, THIS is a milonga... ; ) > My kind of milonga, anyway... > > Astrid > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 21:02:24 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Hot Message-ID: <933467.58183.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Noelia and Pablo with shades of Chi Chi... This is sexy stuff even if it isn't my cup of tea http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=_O7OIFG9w1o From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 21:15:57 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <667544.5849.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Put up or shut up Let's everyone who said that Igor's Milonga is ''..just"...show us their Milonga.. and every (usa) teacher who claims that they can dance it, show us theirs too.... Why not? What's it take to move the table our of the room and hand the camera over to Jill ?? From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 22:55:33 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: <763941.32509.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here's my point..simple and clear. Dancing slo tango is often not 'dancing' Often, it is posing and doing mechanical movements. Sometimes, these poses and mechanics can be done relatively close to the same speed of the music..it can appear to be dancing. Because these mechanicions don't have a basis in 'dancing' but rather in engineering, they are very difficult to master. The ease and sense of the 'dance' (relationship of music to body movement) just isn't involved. Slo tango becomes difficult and a lucrative business. Now, the Milonga (song) is harder to engineer...it's more difficult to obscure and make difficult. However, it is easy to dance..if someone can dance, that is. So, what is this phenomena of a Tango teacher who cannot dance the Milonga?? I'm saying that I have met various 'teachers' who either refuse to dance it or dance it in a spastic way. 'Spastic' = non-joyous, stiff. Dancing is releasing and flowing..trusting something more profound than 'thinking' .. One can 'dance' the slo tango without really dancing. The Milonga is much harder to fake.. ..and doesn't lend itself well to being engineered. Igor can dance....that's all...his steps may not be officially approved nor have the good tango teaching seal of approval but it is dancing..it flows and it's joyous. ..not mechanical not stiff. that's all folks From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Jun 9 00:41:46 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:41:46 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend In-Reply-To: <667544.5849.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <667544.5849.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: how about you show us yours, Mario, or your tango, before you try to judge anyone else's? Mario wrote: > Put up or shut up > Let's everyone who said that Igor's Milonga is ''..just"...show us their > Milonga.. > and every (usa) teacher who claims that they can dance it, show us theirs > too.... > Why not? What's it take to move the table our of the room and hand the > camera over to Jill ?? > From joe.grohens at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 04:29:49 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 03:29:49 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend Message-ID: Mario wrote this: > Here's my point..simple and clear. Dancing slo tango is often not > 'dancing' Often, it is posing and doing mechanical movements. > Sometimes, these poses and mechanics can be done relatively close to > the same speed of the music..it can appear to be dancing. Because > these mechanicions don't have a basis in 'dancing' but rather in > engineering, they are very difficult to master. The ease and sense > of the 'dance' (relationship of music to body movement) just isn't > involved. Slo tango becomes difficult and a lucrative business. Now, > the Milonga (song) is harder to engineer...it's more difficult to > obscure and make difficult. However, it is easy to dance..if > someone can dance, that is. So, what is this phenomena of a Tango > teacher who cannot dance the Milonga?? I'm saying that I have met > various 'teachers' who either refuse to dance it or dance it in a > spastic way. 'Spastic' = non-joyous, stiff. Dancing is releasing and > flowing..trusting something more profound than 'thinking' .. One can > 'dance' the slo tango without really dancing. The Milonga is much > harder to fake.. ..and doesn't lend itself well to being engineered. > Igor can dance....that's all...his steps may not be officially > approved nor have the good tango teaching seal of approval but it is > dancing..it flows and it's joyous. ..not mechanical not stiff. > that's all folks Mario, Congratulations on evolving (in about two months) from a beginner with a million questions into an aficionado with the ability to make sweeping generalizations from extremely small samples, sometimes from one data point. You are the proof that tango-l and youtube can make someone into a tango expert in a very short time. About milonga. Not everyone likes to dance milonga or dances it well. Many tango dancers do not dance milonga much. Many dancers who really like milonga do not dance tango as much as they dance milonga. They are two different dances. I tend to agree with you that posing and doing mechanical movements is not dancing. In my very limited experience of tango, I have not seen any correlation between dancing in such a posing way and slow tango music. I just offer this as a counter-example. I'm suppose you could be right, but I doubt it and would encourage you to re-examine your research findings. In the U.S. I have (again, in my very limited experience) seen many joyous flowing dancers release themselves into milonga and dance it very badly, racing around the room, bouncing up and down, being wild and having a great time. They are not mechanical or stiff. But they are beginners. Joe Grohens Also a beginner in tango From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Mon Jun 9 14:17:05 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:17:05 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Posing in tango In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484D73A1.10309@lavidacondeby.com> Let's see if this post makes the list. I have been censored on and off and for what reason I have no idea. In any event, there are several themes running through your last post Mario. First and foremost. The music. When the music pauses so should the dancers. Most dancers are so busy "thinking" about their next steps they forget to feel and listen to the music. I remember once when I was teaching with my former partner, a student told another student she did not like dancing with him because he stopped so much during the song. (We used Di Sarli to teach with - and it is noted with pauses) The other student said to her maybe that was because the music paused. The first student said she didn't care, that she preferred to keep on dancing. The sensuality of tango comes from the music not from being embraced by a partner. When you can feel the music and dance as one with that person. Part of that sensuality includes pausing. Includes using your feet. Yes it is much more difficult. If you do not have your own balance and axis you end up looking more like tree huggers grabbing onto each other to keep from falling over. A tango where the dancers keep dancing regardless of the music is much easier. You just dance what you know. As stated earlier, all dancers have their favorite. I love vals and I love Di Sarli. I dance milonga with and without traspie. I dance it well. I almost never dance it. One I don't like to dance milonga as much as I like to dance tango and vals. Two, there are very few men here (even in Buenos Aires) who can dance milonga well enough for me to enjoy dancing a milonga. I also rarely dance to Pugliese. Why? I don't want to. It does not mean I do not know how, I prefer other orchestras. Each orchestra brings a different style of dance. You should not dance the same to Troilo as you do to Di Sarli or Pugliese. People here first listen to the music. If they like the music, then they look for someone to dance with. We want to enjoy our dance. It is not unusual here to find people who never dance one "ritmo" or the other. Simply because they prefer not to, not because they do not know how. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10000e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From larrynla at juno.com Mon Jun 9 15:00:38 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:00:38 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Police Message-ID: <20080609.120038.29512.2@webmail19.dca.untd.com> The wonderful thing about tango is that there is no official organization to define what tango is, with tango police penalizing someone when they see them doing in-authentic tango. Of course this doesn't keep those with an officious mindset from setting up their own tastes as the One True Authentic tango. So it was refreshing to read Astrid's comment about milonga, who simply gave an example and said this is what she likes. The exact quote is -----> THIS is a milonga... ;) My kind of milonga, anyway... Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Click to get a free auto insurance quotes from top companies. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifSLoQaMcnI80mG33St7f8Tm91CiGNa6hekOXp5FbsUITE3I/ From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Mon Jun 9 15:28:37 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:28:37 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? Message-ID: <005801c8ca67$9a523460$b38f3dc8@JANIS> Dictionary: hype -- 1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion. 2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material. 3. An advertising or promotional ploy. 4. Something deliberating misleading; a deception. The rules of Tango-A do not allow for hype, but that's seems to be all it contains. The number of posts would be greatly reduced if hype were eliminated. The following are some recent examples. Carlos Stasi runs one of the most famous milongas in Buenos Aires - Porte?o y Bailarin! Not only is he a wonderful and welcoming host, he is also a hardcore porte?o, a great social dancer and skilled instructor. He will be teaching the intermediate class at 8:30pm, assisted by another well known face in the Bs As tango scene, Susana Guevara. They will also treat us with a performance, Buenos Aires style! key words: famous, wonderful, hardcore, great, skilled. Honestly, I didn't know he could dance. Enriqueta has danced tango for over 15 years. She presently teaches group and private classes in Buenos Aires. The classes are for bothmen and women. She is an expert in Salon Tango - Milonguero Style, Tango Waltz and Milonga. Enriqueta also specializes in teaching technique for women and has led many courses and seminars. She performed at the 3rd and 5th Metropolitan Championships in Buenos Aires. She has done a number of performances in Buenos Aires including at Salon Canning, Cachirulo (Maipu 444), and at Confiteria Ideal for the First Milongueando Festival in Buenos Aires. She has been an instructor at Susana Miller's La Academia and presently teaches at Maipu 444. key words: expert, specializes, performed. The campeonato program doesn't have her name listed. Her magazine ads go all the way back to last November. She's in Chicago, so how is she presently teaching in BsAs? We'll also have a performance by Monica Paz, a true master of the milonguero style. She's visiting NYC from Buenos Aires key words: true master. Mastery dancing like a milonguero? Where does she teach and dance in BsAs? Anyone from Buenos Aires with a tourist visa and the money for airfare can be hyped on Tango-A. Americans are ready to buy. From patangos at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 17:01:52 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Posing in tango In-Reply-To: <484D73A1.10309@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <690692.88099.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Deby Novitz wrote: > From: Deby Novitz > Subject: [Tango-L] Posing in tango > To: tango-l at mit.edu, "Mario" > Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 2:17 PM > Let's see if this post makes the list. I have been > censored on and off > and for what reason I have no idea. In any event, there > are several > themes running through your last post Mario. First and > foremost. The > music. When the music pauses so should the dancers. Or more accurately, the dancers dance the pauses. It's not just the feet that dance. Trini de Pittsburgh From tempehuck at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 17:47:55 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:47:55 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Posing in tango In-Reply-To: <690692.88099.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <484D73A1.10309@lavidacondeby.com> <690692.88099.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > > On Mon, 6/9/08, Deby Novitz wrote: > >> First and foremost. The music. When the music >> pauses so should the dancers. > > Or more accurately, the dancers dance the pauses. It's not just the feet that dance. I really like the first of Trini's two sentences here. Many people seem to think (and I've actually seen it taught on occasion in so-called "musicality" classes) that a pause in the music means that everyone has to abruptly stop dancing and freeze in place, as though they are playing some childhood game like Simon Says or Musical Chairs, or else they are summarily (and simplistically) judged to be not dancing "with musicality." While more often than not when that happens, it is indeed the case (no musicality), it is not necessarily true. You do have to somehow dance the pauses in the music, distinguishing them in some manner from the rest of the music, but the dancer should be allowed to exercise creativity and interpret the pauses as he or she sees fit, not just everyone on the dance floor obediently freezing in place out of blind fear, lest someone accuse them of not being a "true portenyo." ("Haaaa haaaa, they moved, gringo alert!!! Euro trash!!! Not a portenyo!!! Haaa haaa!!!!) Huck From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Jun 9 19:22:37 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:22:37 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <005801c8ca67$9a523460$b38f3dc8@JANIS> References: <005801c8ca67$9a523460$b38f3dc8@JANIS> Message-ID: from what I know, it is a common policy among tango teachers and probably generally, dance teachers, to inflate their resume by doubling their years of experience and such. One guy here calls himself "Gavito's former assistent". I never noticed, Gavito used any assistents... That, together with promoters doing the hype thing (e.g.: "Saucedo is one of the best dancers in the world") which will all be believed at face value by ill informed beginners and intermediates, and those who only know teachers from their own country (and maybe not even those' true backgrounds...) As we all know, there is no licensing system for tango teachers, anybody can appoint himself to be one, just look at Tango-L sometimes. ; ) Janis wrote: key words: famous, wonderful, hardcore, great, skilled. Honestly, I didn't know he could dance. .... key words: expert, specializes, performed. The campeonato program doesn't have her name listed. Her magazine ads go all the way back to last November. She's in Chicago, so how is she presently teaching in BsAs? key words: true master. Mastery dancing like a milonguero? Where does she teach and dance in BsAs? From antonst at alidas.com.au Mon Jun 9 19:41:08 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:41:08 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Police In-Reply-To: <317C09DEB5644222AE9838CA3EE124DF@stanco.local> Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5C8@stancosbs1.stanco.local> "The wonderful thing about tango is that there is no official organization to define what tango is" So I guess if you agree with the above, Tango can be the sum of everyone's opinion. Or the opinion of anyone. Or that no one knows what Tango is. Or more bluntly, Tango is nothing or everything. I sure love Tango. Maybe just for the diversity of meaningless opinion. Mine included. Anton From tl2 at chrisjj.com Mon Jun 9 21:24:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <005801c8ca67$9a523460$b38f3dc8@JANIS> Message-ID: > Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris From stermitz at tango.org Mon Jun 9 21:36:11 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:36:11 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <399528A4-C656-45B9-976E-F6D0A0D4DC24@tango.org> Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's ARGENTINE. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: >> Marketing or hype? > > Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) > > Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as > well as > the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ > 5pmbh4 who > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship > ever > having been held. > > -- > Chris From nina at earthnet.net Mon Jun 9 22:00:09 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:00:09 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <399528A4-C656-45B9-976E-F6D0A0D4DC24@tango.org> References: <399528A4-C656-45B9-976E-F6D0A0D4DC24@tango.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609194849.01b5c390@earthnet.net> Here are two glorious words that, sadly, never show up in tango promotions in English: - Bodacious - Stupendous Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. If you are about to announce a dancing couple that is going to dance a performance, and you say "Here are the best dancers in the world!", does it really matter whether it is true or not? At that one split second, they might be. But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its "truth". It just needs to sound good. When a man tells a woman when they dance "Ojos claros! Que divina hermosa mujer!', should she argue with him because it may not really be true? And when a woman tells the man she just danced with that he is the best dancer she has ever danced with, should he argue because his left brain might be whispering to him doubts about that? I hope not! Nina At 07:36 PM 6/9/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote: >Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been >sweeping the world these last few years. > >There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- >ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in >tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one >has to be a master of masters. > >Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's ARGENTINEhushed-awe>. > >Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? > > >On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: > > >> Marketing or hype? > > > > Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) > > > > Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as > > well as > > the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ > > 5pmbh4 who > > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite > > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship > > ever > > having been held. > > > > -- > > Chris >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tl2 at chrisjj.com Mon Jun 9 22:40:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609194849.01b5c390@earthnet.net> Message-ID: > Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. > ... But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook > into every word for its "truth". It just needs to sound good. Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina. When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true. Rather, "it just needs to sound good." ??? -- Chris From nina at earthnet.net Mon Jun 9 23:02:39 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:02:39 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609194849.01b5c390@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609205955.01aed1d8@earthnet.net> Milton Myers, a master teacher, choreographer and former principal dancers of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company in NY, once said in class that all dance teachers have some gems. Some of them have many and they spill them in front of their students. But others have only one or two. Most students wait for the teachers that spill lots of gems before they start picking them up. But it is the student that is not only picking all those spilled gems, but also who is able to pick that one gem from that not the best of the teachers is the one that will end up with a bigger treasure. There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that teacher. But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is the last deity of tango? The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out. It is a journey, and the words don't matter. Nina At 08:40 PM 6/9/2008, Chris, UK wrote: > > Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. > > ... But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook > > into every word for its "truth". It just needs to sound good. > >Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina. > >When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of >his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him >how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to >be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true. > >Rather, "it just needs to sound good." ??? > >-- >Chris >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Mon Jun 9 23:50:04 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:50:04 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <399528A4-C656-45B9-976E-F6D0A0D4DC24@tango.org> References: <399528A4-C656-45B9-976E-F6D0A0D4DC24@tango.org> Message-ID: <004101c8caad$12d12af0$4100a8c0@labyrinth> Well Tom; It will end when a guy finally gets too dizzy of going round and round, has a drink and sees that some other dancers are caught up in superlatives. Sees an attractive woman, cabeceo (silently saying "Woman, dance"), and moves with the rest of the floor. Hear the heart beat of the woman, she feels nice in the arms, and we dance. Who cares about nuclear bombs. David PS: I do derive some pleasure from annoying grammarians. -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Stermitz Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:36 PM To: Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's ARGENTINE. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: >> Marketing or hype? > > Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) > > Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as > well as > the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ > 5pmbh4 who > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship > ever > having been held. > > -- > Chris _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Jun 10 03:38:38 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:38:38 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The URL for the 2007 World Argentine tango show championship's list of winners is this: http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/tango_escenario_e.php The Japanese winners and finalists are all dancers I know personally, Chizuko still works at the studio I go to for their milongas while her partner Sebastian has returned to BA. The Korean couple who won 1st prize a couple of years ago paid our milonga a visit on their way home to Seoul. Gonzalo who won 2nd place last year with a Japanese partner never returned to Tokyo after that. Cristian Lopez who won 4th place the year before that with Rika has been bought up by another studio in Tokyo, I used to dance with him every week. So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack information, Chris. The video of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they would be able to win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. Sometimes dancers just have to know the right people and take lessons with someone who is on the jury to score in these kind of events. There are also "world tango competitions" held in Florida, or were, at any case, the teacher who organised them would then proudly announce on tango-l that all the winning couples had been among his students, except for Gavito and Marcella and such... So, no need to take these results all that seriously, but these competitions do exist. The proper name for th BA event is Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango. Copes, Sergio Cortazzo and such people are on the jury. I would love to know more about the salon tango competitions but unfortunately, teachers from Japan (Japanese or Argentine) do not usually compete in that, but there were a few who went and one or two couples scored. Chris wrote: this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever > having been held. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Jun 10 03:52:19 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:52:19 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609205955.01aed1d8@earthnet.net> References: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609194849.01b5c390@earthnet.net> <7.0.1.0.1.20080609205955.01aed1d8@earthnet.net> Message-ID: This would all be very well if this is how tango selling worked. But the reality is that a teacher in a studio will tell all his students, most of them beginner or intermediate level:"I have this teacher from BA coming over for a tango week, and he/she is really famous and one of the best tango dancers in the world. Now, for a mere 30000 Yen/ 300 dollars/200 Euros or whatever, you can be part of this very special experience and take a series of lessons with him/her..." At least the beginners will often buy this, no matter who is actually coming. So, words do matter, Nina, calling this fraud in some cases is not completely unjustified, it is very different from flattering a woman you want to seduce by telling her, she is the best, most beautiful etc. . > There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if > you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like > him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that > teacher. But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance > like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is > the last deity of tango? > The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her > internal drive? It is a journey, > and the words don't matter. > > Nina From al at sgi.com Tue Jun 10 09:19:36 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:19:36 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Police In-Reply-To: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5C8@stancosbs1.stanco.local> References: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5C8@stancosbs1.stanco.local> Message-ID: <484E7F68.9030203@sgi.com> Anton Stanley wrote: > "The wonderful thing about tango is that there is no official > organization to define what tango is" > > So I guess if you agree with the above, Tango can be the sum of > everyone's opinion. It all depends on the meaning you ascribe to "organisation". A social group can be self-organised and ruled by peer pressure, but in my book that's not "official organisation". -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 09:35:33 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45457.3111.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I wonder... what is the side-effect of taking a socially grounded art form and making it a competition? In a few instances that I know of the competitive execution of art forms have eventually transformed the fundamental way in which artist practices and execute the art form. Emphasis on competition may have the following side-effects: execution becomes geared towards fitting particular guidelines and standards (stifling creativity); scoring points become the ultimate measurement of a dancer; and the financial requirements of such competitions alienate talented dancers of low social economic status. Anyone needing examples of what the future will look like for tango competition -- look at dance sport (formerly know as ballroom) and judo (competition vs. art form practice). Amaury --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Astrid wrote: > From: Astrid > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? > To: tl2 at chrisjj.com, Tango-L at mit.edu > Cc: tl2 at chrisjj.com > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 12:38 AM > The URL for the 2007 World Argentine tango show > championship's list of > winners is this: > > http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/tango_escenario_e.php > > The Japanese winners and finalists are all dancers I know > personally, > Chizuko still works at the studio I go to for their > milongas while her > partner Sebastian has returned to BA. The Korean couple who > won 1st prize a > couple of years ago paid our milonga a visit on their way > home to Seoul. > Gonzalo who won 2nd place last year with a Japanese partner > never returned > to Tokyo after that. Cristian Lopez who won 4th place the > year before that > with Rika has been bought up by another studio in Tokyo, I > used to dance > with him every week. > So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack > information, Chris. The video > of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they > would be able to > win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. Sometimes > dancers just have > to know the right people and take lessons with someone who > is on the jury to > score in these kind of events. > There are also "world tango competitions" held in > Florida, or were, at any > case, the teacher who organised them would then proudly > announce on tango-l > that all the winning couples had been among his students, > except for Gavito > and Marcella and such... > So, no need to take these results all that seriously, but > these competitions > do exist. The proper name for th BA event is Campeonato > Mundial de Baile de > Tango. Copes, Sergio Cortazzo and such people are on the > jury. > I would love to know more about the salon tango > competitions but > unfortunately, teachers from Japan (Japanese or Argentine) > do not usually > compete in that, but there were a few who went and one or > two couples > scored. > > Chris wrote: > this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who > > claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show > Championship. Despite > > there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show > Championship ever > > having been held. > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Jun 10 10:42:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack information, Chris. > The video of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they would > be able to win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. I'm not rushing to conclusions, Astrid. I bothered to check the BA Mundial web site, and the names of these UK teachers do not appear anywhere in the results listings. > Sometimes dancers just have to know the right people and take lessons Actually, they also have to turn up at the competition. I've seen no evidence this couple did even that. -- Chris From tango.society at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 10:57:35 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:57:35 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Pausing and Posing in Tango Message-ID: Should one used pauses in dancing tango? One of the difficulties in coming to a judgment about whether pauses are used or are normal in tango is that the 'pause' is not clearly defined in terms of its duration. At one level, one can say that one is ALWAYS pausing in tango (milonga and vals). A man leads a movement and waits (pauses) until the woman's movement is completed (collection or change of weight occurs) before the next movement is led. Likewise, after completing a movement, a woman waits (pauses) until the man leads the next movement. That's obvious. Or is it? At times looking across a US milonga floor, one can wonder whether there is any waiting for the partner's movement to be completed before the next movement is made. This lack of pausing is what gives the dance its rushed appearance. One thing that I like about the way milongueros dance is that those slight pauses between steps are apparent. See the following videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJLX7OA8Pg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioq8BdMxuO8 Another question regarding pauses is whether it is normal and acceptable in tango to skip beats without moving around the floor. At one extreme, it is normally considered unacceptable to stop in the line of dance and stay in one place for an extended period of time. There was a generation of tango dancers trained mostly in the 1990s for whom parada - sandwich - lustrada + many adornments in place were a normal part of dance. That may be fine drama when executed well on the stage, but not on the social dance floor, where it blocks the flow of the ronda. Fortunately this species is rapidly becoming extinct. However, another mutant appears to have evolved that is often associated with tango milonguero, but which resembles nothing I have ever seen on the milonga dance floor in Buenos Aires. This is where a man may remain motionless as several beats of music pass by and the woman is engaging in a orgy of adornments, very loosely if at all connected with the music. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpljPVhW6Gs This type of pausing seems to be replacing the sandwich - lustrada game of the 90s on the milonga dance floor at some venues. For the most part it is used primarily when later Pugliese is played, although I've seen this manner of dancing to mid-1950s Di Sarli as well. This type of pausing is excessive because it ignores the music and anti-social because it ignores the ronda. Its origin is unclear to me and may be due in part to a misunderstanding of pauses discussed in tango workshops, or even mis-taught by instructors who misunderstood the content of previous workshops. An intermediate level of pausing is a pause of 1 or 2 seconds after coming to a collection point (including the cruzada), before proceeding to the next movement. This may match the music, e.g., the pauses in the music of 50s Pugliese or the bandoneon flourishes that occur between phrases in the music of the D'agostino-Vargas orchestra. Here there are natural gaps in the music. This brief pausing could then be extended to other tango music that is smoother (less rhythmic), e.g., Calo - Beron or Fresedo - Ray. In this case, one may actually pause 1 or 2 beats after a cruzada or collection (e.g., 'resolution'), i.e., the rhythm continues but movement does not. This is in part functional in that it allows the woman time to collect. I have encountered this concept of limited pausing in several workshops taught by well-known instructors of social tango. The acceptability of this, I believe, depends on the 2 factors I mentioned before - navigation (i.e., not blocking the flow of the ronda) and the rhythm and phrasing of the music. My experience in Buenos Aires is that the ronda is in nearly constant motion and thus even these short pauses may even be pushing the limits of navigational acceptability, although not always, depending on floor density. Most dancers in the milongas of Buenos Aires do not have their dances punctuated with multiple pauses and so the ronda is always progressing, except under the most extreme high density. With respect to musicality these pauses can work, as long as the movements into and out of the pause are connected to the rhythm and phrasing of the music (e.g., exit from pause on strongly accented beat). Even so, if acceptable in these terms, the pause should be just a moment of respite in the dance, rather than the dance being constructed around the pauses as in the last video referenced. Ron From spatz at tangoDC.com Tue Jun 10 12:35:13 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:35:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609205955.01aed1d8@earthnet.net> References: <7.0.1.0.1.20080609194849.01b5c390@earthnet.net> <7.0.1.0.1.20080609205955.01aed1d8@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <484EAD41.6020106@tangoDC.com> Nina (and others), Janis' point was not about superlatives alone: it was also about lies and deliberately misleading statements. Do you also accept those as a matter of course? If you do, what good is your word? Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? Actually, the question was how manipulative certain people are, and how much certain other people are willing to tolerate it (and even get behind it) on Tango-A. > If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out. It is a journey, and the words don't matter. > And the sentences above endorse a trickle-down policy of... well, bullshit. Perhaps it's my silly "internal drive" talking here, but I simply don't see how one person's innocence can possibly justify another's abuse. I agree with the notion that every teacher has at least a little to offer, perhaps even a gem. The problem is that bad teachers also offer heaps of gaudy junk. That a fake Rolex tells time does not make it any the less fake. Jake From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 14:00:07 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:00:07 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Pausing and Posing in Tango Message-ID: Interesting thoughts on pausing, Ron and others. Are we using "pause" to refer to those times when each partner stays on one leg rather than changing weight with the music? I have experienced times when the dance floor is so crowded that the couples cannot progress, and you just have to dance on your spot for a while, and then move forward a small amount to dance on another spot. This is not "pausing," right? By the way, in the Osvaldo Centeno video, what is the music being played? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJLX7OA8Pg From eyegee at twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 10 15:25:21 2008 From: eyegee at twcny.rr.com (Ira Goldstein) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:25:21 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Pausing and Posing in Tango In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Joe-- At 1:00 PM -0500 6/10/08, Joe Grohens wrote: >By the way, in the Osvaldo Centeno video, what is the music being >played? > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJLX7OA8Pg D'Arienzo/Maur? : "Amarras" --Ira Ithaca, NY From tangospring at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 15:27:15 2008 From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:27:15 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Looking for a Youtube clip of Milonga Message-ID: Here you go, Norman: On Grace. http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg07656.html -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com From: Norman Tiber Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:49:39 -0700 ________________________________ Sometime ago someone posted a youtube clip which included an older gentleman (white beard, rather bald), dancing Milonga with a younger women (black hair, black dress). I thought he was a good social dancer. At the beginning of the clip there is a women, at the entrance to the Milonga venue, speaking spanish, wearing a red dress. If anyone recognizes this, I would appreciate your e-mailing me the info. for this clip or posting it on Tango L. Thanks! Norm From tony at oakebooks.com Tue Jun 10 15:43:42 2008 From: tony at oakebooks.com (Tony) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:43:42 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] dance ezine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484ED96D.2090501@oakebooks.com> Hi All, Another issue of Smooth Moves has just been released - this time including a long article on Tango's history by a regular poster here (big thanks there!) and news of forthcoming Tango events in Europe. Please check out... www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php?ezineId=3 All the best, Tony -- www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php Martial Arts : Health : Dance From brick at fastpack.com Tue Jun 10 16:16:19 2008 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women as wild horses that need to be broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got this commentary in a weekly newsletter from our local Tango School here in San Diego (the one that has a teachers training program.) I found it somewhat amusing, so I thought I'd share it with the list, especially those who object to followers being compared to non-human things. And I'd like to clarify that these are not my opinions, just something I thought I'd forward for the entertainment value. Enjoy! (I truncated it to meet the 5K limit for this list) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: el_mundo_del_tango Date: Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:58 AM INTRO ? "FOR THE FOLLOWER" Last week I wrote about improvisation for the leader, so this week it makes sense to write about the follower's side of the story. Sometimes when teaching a follower I find that it is necessary to work on the "auto-ocho" habit. Like a wild bronco that needs to be broken, these followers become runaway horses when led forward from the cross. This phenomenon manifests itself as a series of un-led forward ochos that spiral out of control. On occasion, I will stand there unmoving as the follower commits forward ocho after forward ocho while I patiently wait for her to finish. Horse trainers have developed techniques for breaking wild horses which requires the tying up of a bronco to a barn or tree until it is too tired to fight anymore. I haven't heard of such techniques being used in tango, but it could be a possible last resort. When a leader is a victim of "auto-ochos" all he can do is sit there and wait for the follower to finish and then give her a nice, warm smile. The reason that these `auto ochos' occur is because the some of us teachers have not trained our students to follow properly. Unfortunately, ochos are often learned as patterns and the follower's technique is not addressed in enough detail. To make matters worse, bad habits can be learned from leaders. Sometimes leaders will push the follower and give them the mistaken impression that pushing is the correct lead. So when a gentleman doesn't push when leading a forward ocho and uses the correct lead based on turning his upper body and committing clear weight changes, the follower is sometimes unsure of what she is supposed to do. On the other hand, some leaders have a very weak lead. During the execution of a forward ocho many of these leaders don't rotate their upper body to the right, so the follower doesn't have enough room to step. In response some followers can develop a bad habit of forcing their way through the forward ocho. In this manner they become accustomed to ignoring the lead and dancing by themselves. Herein lies the agony of being a follower. The question is? if the man doesn't lead properly should she help by completing the step for him? My answer is? NO!!! It is human nature to want to please your partner and sometimes we feel that it is not unreasonable to give in to the temptation. Just remember the consequences will lead to bad habits for him and probably for you. So lets analyze what it takes to be a good follower. A woman must give up any attempt to guess what the next step of the dance will be and live in the present. Her biggest concern should be to determine which leg is free to step... Please let me explain? When a leader places a follower's weight on one leg, a good guideline states that the woman controls her standing leg and the man controls the free leg. The follower needs her standing leg to keep her up, but she has the ability to give control of her free leg to the leader. So whenever the leader puts the follower's weight on one leg (lets say in this instance the right leg) her other leg (in this case the left) will be the one that will takes the next step. Therefore in this example, when the man leads the woman to walk backwards? the first leg to step backwards will be the free one, the left leg. If he leads her to the side then the first leg to step to the side will also be the left one. ETC? So the free leg (the one with no weight) will always be the stepping leg and the follower will never have to guess which leg to step with. If this concept is understood then it should really take a load off the follower's mind. If a follower can stay in the present and focus on these weight changes, then she can free up her mind so that she has time to focus on musicality and proper technique. A woman must focus on what is important. These weight changes are much more important than thinking about whether she is good enough to follow the leader, or whether or not her stomach is showing through her dress, or whether or not she knows enough adornos, or whatever. Just start by focusing on weight changes. Then if you can ignore all the other voices in your head? you will have time to focus on musicality and technique. From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 16:58:07 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Pausing and Posing in Tango In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35977DB1-FD66-42D6-855D-53B04F904BE2@gmail.com> Oh, you're right. That goes by too fast for me to read it. I'm busy reading the stuff on the side. Interesting human factors issue. Thanks, Ralph! joe On Jun 10, 2008, at 2:29 PM, Ralph J. Hangleiter wrote: > As it says in the introduction: Amarras Juan D'Arienzo? > > Regards > Ralph From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Jun 10 18:46:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. In-Reply-To: <45457.3111.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyone needing examples of what the future will look like for tango > competition -- look at dance sport Or look at the past and present of social tango. It is already full of competition - the guys compete; the girls award prizes. ;) -- Chris From antonst at alidas.com.au Tue Jun 10 19:55:10 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:55:10 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Police In-Reply-To: <11596B8C62144EA2B5AD4BBD54C5C956@stanco.local> Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5CB@stancosbs1.stanco.local> I have been described as anarchistic/chaotic by nature. Yet it's in perpetual conflict with the obvious benefits of order. Take as an example your field within computers Alexis; I can't begin to imagine the chaos if languages like Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, PHP, Java etc. had developed independently in differing pockets around the world, with colloquial interpretations and variations based on local peer group pressure. You would also know that strict guidelines don't inhibit creativity, but actually creates a climate of greater creativity. So I for one who has worked within the real world constraints of creative boundaries like yourself Alexis, don't fear the concept of Tango Police. Provided they have fairly attractive credentials in that field and don't wear jackboots. Anton From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Jun 10 20:04:41 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:04:41 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C9B6CBA7084463488C369B7EF0D5697@homePC> In some places it is more like the girls compete and the guys award prizes. I can't send this to the list coz it is a one liner and contains your whole posting...>= I ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris, UK" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. >> Anyone needing examples of what the future will look like for tango >> competition -- look at dance sport > > Or look at the past and present of social tango. It is already full of > competition - the guys compete; the girls award prizes. ;) > > -- > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Wed Jun 11 01:42:04 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:42:04 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. In-Reply-To: <3C9B6CBA7084463488C369B7EF0D5697@homePC> References: <3C9B6CBA7084463488C369B7EF0D5697@homePC> Message-ID: <007601c8cb85$e2692690$4100a8c0@labyrinth> Wow Astrid.. I think the whole idea is kooky. It is like saying men are more logical than women. My thought, in what arena. David -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Astrid Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:05 PM To: tl2 at chrisjj.com; Tango-L at mit.edu Cc: tl2 at chrisjj.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. In some places it is more like the girls compete and the guys award prizes. I can't send this to the list coz it is a one liner and contains your whole posting...>= I ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris, UK" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form. >> Anyone needing examples of what the future will look like for tango >> competition -- look at dance sport > > Or look at the past and present of social tango. It is already full of > competition - the guys compete; the girls award prizes. ;) > > -- > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM From al at sgi.com Wed Jun 11 04:33:36 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:33:36 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Police In-Reply-To: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5CB@stancosbs1.stanco.local> References: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF5CB@stancosbs1.stanco.local> Message-ID: <484F8DE0.7090001@sgi.com> Anton Stanley wrote: > [I] don't fear the concept of Tango Police. I do. I like formal specifications for computer languages, but tango isn't one of them. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From TangoFantasy at aol.com Fri Jun 6 03:15:22 2008 From: TangoFantasy at aol.com (TangoFantasy@aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 03:15:22 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Thank you. Reporting on Tango Fantasy event Message-ID: Dear Milongueros y Tangueras: A week has gone by since the 12th Tango Fantasy Festival in Miami Beach concluded. As the organizer and hostess I wish to thank all who participated in the whole event and those who joined us for the nightly milongas and the spectacular show on Sunday, May 25. I also want to thank my wonderful and efficient volunteer staff who made it possible for me to once more present this Festival to you all. I appreciate the many e-mail messages sent to me with positive thoughts and full of good wishes for this yearly event. I will get to answer them all in time but please take note I had over 400 e-mails when I returned from the hotel last week. I promise I will get in touch with you. The organizing of this event throughout the year is not an easy task as many of you know. I take pride in choosing the best Argentine master instructors throughout the world. As always the 2008 faculty was made up of people at the top of their profession - Carolina Zokalski & Diego DiFalco; Roberto Reis & Vanessa Fatauros; Silvia Grynt & Guillermo Salvat; Silvina Valz & Oliver Kolker; Tete and Silvia; Adrian & Amanda Costa; Pablo & Alicia Repun and Daniel & Claudio Ponce, Los Latigos Santiague?os (considered one of the best folklore artists in the world), they brought the house down with their 20-minute presentation the night of the show! This year we had a few new ones join our teachers' line up and "bingo" they were so great! I have heard nothing but good reviews from all of you and that makes me so proud. The Tango Fantasy had four 1.5 hour classes daily, milongas every night (most into the late hours of the morning), and dancers from all over the country and the world. Because the Deauville Resort is right on the beach, many whose feet, legs or minds grew tired, took breaks to the beach or swimming pool with its beautiful surroundings. We are already into the planning stage of our next Tango Fantasy Festival 2009 and want to invite you to visit our web site for we soon will have highlights of what happened this year and updates for next year's event. Plan to come back next year and we promise you will have your best vacation ever. Tango Forever, Lydia Henson _www.tangofantasy.com_ (http://www.tangofantasy.com) (305) 275-2802 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net Fri Jun 6 08:35:52 2008 From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:35:52 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] festivals.tango.info/2008 - 82 festivals In-Reply-To: <274511.74967.qm@web26301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <274511.74967.qm@web26301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10710480573.20080606083552@attglobal.net> Friday, June 6, 2008, 6:18:36 AM, you wrote: Mtc> until now there are 82 festivals at http://festivals.tango.info/2008 83, actually. The 8th Summer Tango & Film Festival -- which will include the Second USA Tango Championship -- will be held here in New York City 14-20 July. And this year the New York City has proclaimed 14-20 July to officially be Argentine Tango Week. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Jun 11 11:23:52 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:23:52 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women as wild horses that need to be broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A903EF671EA4C25852655F6D1C4B62C@homePC> Brick gave us this article: (clip) Sometimes when teaching a follower I find that it is necessary to work on the "auto-ocho" habit. Like a wild bronco that needs to be broken, these followers become runaway horses when led forward from the cross.Horse trainers have developed techniques for breaking wild horses which requires the tying up of a bronco to a barn or tree until it is too tired to fight anymore. I haven't heard of such techniques being used in tango, but it could be a possible last resort. Good grief, thank God we do not have instructors here that think of their students in this way. He probably thinks, he is being funny, too, but this reads like he has a secret taste for S and M, when it comes to women. Terrible! I would say, the people to blame for women going into automatic pilot on series of ochos are none other than those instructors that make women practise ochos against the wall for long periods without giving them a partner to teach them that ochos are actually a led move which does not really appear in the form of a series in tango but rather usually consists of no more than half an ocho at a time. The man to who this happens probably also does not know how to lead ochos with his chest instead of his hand, otherwise he could easily stop her movement. From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Wed Jun 11 13:01:39 2008 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:01:39 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] women who do auto-ochos Message-ID: Astrid wrote: "The man to who this happens probably also does not know how to lead ochos with his chest instead of his hand, otherwise he could easily stop her movement." Not so simple. The followers who go on auto pilot ochos are invariably beginners who do not wish to dance in close embrace, insisting on an open "student" frame like the one in the class they just took. In that open embrace, it is easier for the unskilled follower to ignore the man's torso. If I know beforehand, I do not invite followers that can only dance in open embrace. ( Of course I am not talking here about followers who are skilled enough to vary from close to open, or are skilled in more elastic embraces used in nuevo ). Sometimes I dont know beforehand, and get stuck. Only once, in 10 years of dancing, I bailed out early. I was having a bad night. Cranky as can be. I invited an unknown follow, and at the initial embrace she said "I only dance open." I said, "that's a shame, I only dance Tango," and we parted ways. From al at sgi.com Wed Jun 11 15:15:52 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:15:52 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women as wild horses that need to be broken? In-Reply-To: <6A903EF671EA4C25852655F6D1C4B62C@homePC> References: <6A903EF671EA4C25852655F6D1C4B62C@homePC> Message-ID: <48502468.3000300@sgi.com> Astrid wrote: > Good grief, thank God we do not have instructors here that think of their > students in this way. He doesn't - I think it's obvious that he tries very hard to make his students dance on something else than autopilot. I'm also sure that, in other posts, he can cast aspersions at leaders in just the same way (and no, something tells me that this wouldn't be a sign he's interested in S and M with men). I thought it was quite humorous, actually, and I wouldn't have been offended had I been a woman (but then, I don't have a sensitive skin (TM) ). > but this reads like he has a secret taste for S and M, Methinks you're projecting a bit too much. > The man to who this happens probably > also does not know how to lead ochos with his chest instead of his hand, > otherwise he could easily stop her movement. > You underestimate the Power of the Dark Side, Astrid. Some "followers" (note apologetical quoting) are quite decided to carry out the step they *think* they should take regardless of the consequences, even if they have to not only ignore the lead but push the leader aside. Some will refuse to follow a step even at the peril of their own lives, refusing to put a foot under the place where the leader has despite everything managed to move their body, just because the Way of the Ocho points somewhere else (apparently, their faith in the Great Autopilot in the Sky is greater than their faith in the law of gravity). Yes, I do blame their instructors (partly), and sometimes their partners (weak leaders that teach them to "fill in the blanks" in the lead -- of course the blame there must also partly lie on the leader's instructor). But "blame" is the wrong word: often, these "followers" simply don't know better. Not that the cabinet of horrors on the leader side looks any prettier, of course - you could also fill books with it. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From mail at elmundodeltango.com Wed Jun 11 21:22:05 2008 From: mail at elmundodeltango.com (El Mundo del Tango) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:22:05 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Pettiness that needs to be broken Message-ID: <004201c8cc2a$bb4cbb80$6401a8c0@mainoffice> Thank you Alexis. So Brick posts my article and says;. "I thought I'd share it with the list, especially those who object to followers being compared to non-human things." ...What a sorry attempt to prod people into fighting his own battles for him in his sorry obsession against our studio. At least I am glad that more people got a chance to read the article. I just hope that they take into context the manner in which it was presented and read the whole thing before jumping to conclusions. It is so much easier to destroy than it is to create... All the best, John INTRO - "FOR THE FOLLOWER" Last week I wrote about improvisation for the leader, so this week it makes sense to write about the follower's side of the story. Sometimes when teaching a follower I find that it is necessary to work on the "auto-ocho" habit. Like a wild bronco that needs to be broken, these followers become runaway horses when led forward from the cross. This phenomenon manifests itself as a series of un-led forward ochos that spiral out of control. On occasion, I will stand there unmoving as the follower commits forward ocho after forward ocho while I patiently wait for her to finish. Horse trainers have developed techniques for breaking wild horses which requires the tying up of a bronco to a barn or tree until it is too tired to fight anymore. I haven't heard of such techniques being used in tango, but it could be a possible last resort. When a leader is a victim of "auto-ochos" all he can do is sit there and wait for the follower to finish and then give her a nice, warm smile. The reason that these `auto ochos' occur is because the some of us teachers have not trained our students to follow properly. Unfortunately, ochos are often learned as patterns and the follower's technique is not addressed in enough detail. To make matters worse, bad habits can be learned from leaders. Sometimes leaders will push the follower and give them the mistaken impression that pushing is the correct lead. So when a gentleman doesn't push when leading a forward ocho and uses the correct lead based on turning his upper body and committing clear weight changes, the follower is sometimes unsure of what she is supposed to do. On the other hand, some leaders have a very weak lead. During the execution of a forward ocho many of these leaders don't rotate their upper body to the right, so the follower doesn't have enough room to step. In response some followers can develop a bad habit of forcing their way through the forward ocho. In this manner they become accustomed to ignoring the lead and dancing by themselves. Herein lies the agony of being a follower. The question is. if the man doesn't lead properly should she help by completing the step for him? My answer is. NO!!! It is human nature to want to please your partner and sometimes we feel that it is not unreasonable to give in to the temptation. Just remember the consequences will lead to bad habits for him and probably for you. So lets analyze what it takes to be a good follower. A woman must give up any attempt to guess what the next step of the dance will be and live in the present. Her biggest concern should be to determine which leg is free to step... Please let me explain. When a leader places a follower's weight on one leg, a good guideline states that the woman controls her standing leg and the man controls the free leg. The follower needs her standing leg to keep her up, but she has the ability to give control of her free leg to the leader. So whenever the leader puts the follower's weight on one leg (lets say in this instance the right leg) her other leg (in this case the left) will be the one that will takes the next step. Therefore in this example, when the man leads the woman to walk backwards. the first leg to step backwards will be the free one, the left leg. If he leads her to the side then the first leg to step to the side will also be the left one. ETC. So the free leg (the one with no weight) will always be the stepping leg and the follower will never have to guess which leg to step with. If this concept is understood then it should really take a load off the follower's mind. If a follower can stay in the present and focus on these weight changes, then she can free up her mind so that she has time to focus on musicality and proper technique. A woman must focus on what is important. These weight changes are much more important than thinking about whether she is good enough to follow the leader, or whether or not her stomach is showing through her dress, or whether or not she knows enough adornos, or whatever. Just start by focusing on weight changes. Then if you can ignore all the other voices in your head. you will have time to focus on musicality and technique. From al at sgi.com Thu Jun 12 09:06:38 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:06:38 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Dear friend In-Reply-To: <86be582e0806100800r1d3a5ac8k9b53504d36e437fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <183484970806091947o6d7ae4ekf504e957546fdb0d@mail.gmail.com> <86be582e0806100800r1d3a5ac8k9b53504d36e437fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48511F5E.2050703@sgi.com> Frank Poliat wrote: > Ed, or whoever you are (Ed Doyle is in the "From" field, but normally > people with names like "Ed Doyle" are native speakers, which the > sender is obviously not, so if someone "used" your gmail acct without > your consent, my apologies. No account was used - From: headers are trivially forged; you don't have to "hack" anything. In this case, a lot of headers were forged and someone then used an ill-defended mail gateway at mail.pbinc.com (just to show you how naive the owners are, the https gateway to configure the mail server is accessible on the internet!) to send spam with the forged headers. There's no need to call this spammer "Ed" (and for the benefit of other list readers, subject the real Ed Doyle to mails full of vitriol), because "Ed" was just selected from a list of harvested e-mails (which now provably also includes the list members spammed). So if you don't want to get thousands of abusive mails next time a spammer uses *you* mail, hope others think before they type, do the same, and leave the real Ed Doyle alone. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From jayrabe at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 12:01:28 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:01:28 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Dear friend In-Reply-To: <48511F5E.2050703@sgi.com> References: <183484970806091947o6d7ae4ekf504e957546fdb0d@mail.gmail.com> <86be582e0806100800r1d3a5ac8k9b53504d36e437fe@mail.gmail.com> <48511F5E.2050703@sgi.com> Message-ID: Ed Doyle is a real person, a tanguero in Portland. About a year or so ago his computer got infected with a virus that sent spam out to everyone in his address book. He fixed/cleaned it, or so he thought, but when he recently did a rebuild on his computer, somehow the virus code apparently had been dormant somewhere and got reactivated. His computer is currently being diagnosed and cleaned. Apologies to all. _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 From larrynla at juno.com Fri Jun 13 19:54:49 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:54:49 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Homesick for Buenos Aires? Message-ID: <20080613.165449.21476.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Can you be homesick for a city you only visited a couple of weeks several years ago? It seems you can. I got tears in my eyes as I watched this video, and it seemed as if my heart hurt in my chest. In it a modern tango orchestra plays "El Huracan" and shows many photos of Buenos Aires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mER-y8HK5g8 Has it happened to any of you who have only visited the city? Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Click now for great deals on quality business cards! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieUwngld0jQ58X53vIYqNxlLJkyApKHtIiveWuM0Qkn0G3FQ/ From tango.society at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 17:18:48 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:18:48 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Homesick for Buenos Aires? In-Reply-To: <20080613.165449.21476.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> References: <20080613.165449.21476.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:54 PM, larrynla at juno.com wrote: > Can you be homesick for a city you only visited a couple of weeks > several years ago? It seems you can. I got tears in my eyes as I > watched this video, and it seemed as if my heart hurt in my chest. > In it a modern tango orchestra plays "El Huracan" and shows many > photos of Buenos Aires. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mER-y8HK5g8 > > Has it happened to any of you who have only visited the city? > > Larry de Los Angeles This is a little different, but it shows the impact Buenos Aires can have on you. I remember the first time Susana and I went to Buenos Aires. It was November 2003. We arrived on a Saturday, in the late afternoon. We had a hotel on Corrientes, less than a block from El Obelisco. We were planning to go to a milonga that evening, but still had time to take a walk and explore the city. I grew up in New York City. Walking on Corrientes reminded me of walking on the streets in midtown Manhattan. There were people walking about, activity in the shops, cafes, and theatres, Buenos Aires has so much activity, so much energy, just like New York. I felt like I had found a home away from home. No other city in the US has affected me this way. Buenos Aires has so much culture, it is diverse, and people embrace it. Every time I return to Buenos Aires, I feel like I'm coming home - an adopted home, but a city that reminds me so much of the city of my birth. So, yes, I get homesick when I'm away. The memories of my visits always drive me to return. It isn't just about tango.Tango is only part of the beauty of Buenos Aires. Ron From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sun Jun 15 14:05:48 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:05:48 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Homesick for Buenos Aires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485559FC.6000805@lavidacondeby.com> I got so homesick I made 18 trips in 4 years before I decided to "come home" permanently. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10030e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From brian at danceoftheheart.com Mon Jun 16 14:42:46 2008 From: brian at danceoftheheart.com (Brian Dunn) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:42:46 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Gustavo Naveira Interview, Part 3 Message-ID: <01216503D84044F990976F7B828072A9@BrianDell> Dear tango aficionados, Part 3 of an extended interview with Gustavo Naveira is available on our website at http://www.danceoftheheart.com/naveirainterview.htm The interview is ongoing - if you have questions that occur to you upon reading this interview, please contact us at tangolessons at danceoftheheart.com to have your questions possibly included in subsequent interview sessions. Here is an excerpt from the latest installment: "About the problem of difficulties with the discipline of practice, I think on one side we can't think about tango as a sport. You know that, in sports, if you don't practice a certain number of hours, you can't play professionally at a certain level. But in tango, sometimes practice is not useful. You can't direct the practice to achieve your objective...because it seems to be leading you in another direction. I think, an opinion only, it's because the tango is still developing. There's nothing proved. You don't know what can happen. And there is another problem.in football, it's YOU who is running several hours a day to get your level, but in tango, it's all about the RELATIONSHIP. You cannot compare tango to other dances because it's a dance that sets a new world.it's NOT individual, how he or she is doing things alone. It's not fully explored yet, so that's why I think we are still in a development moment. That's why I say it's not a rebirth of tango. I think that before, the main thing was not the dance. In the old times, the people were dancing in order to express deep feelings about the music. The start of all this was the music, so they were trying to play everything around THAT...a social situation, not a political situation. This was interesting, because it was about the relationship between people. But it was not concretely about the development of the dance through the relationship. The new subject is the development of the dance BASED on the relationship." Read the full text of the currently published interview sections at http://www.danceoftheheart.com/naveirainterview.htm Abrazos, Brian Dunn & Deb Sclar Dance of the Heart 775 Pleasant Street Boulder, CO 80302 USA 303-938-0716 www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" From tl2 at chrisjj.com Mon Jun 16 18:51:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Gustavo Naveira Interview, Part 3 In-Reply-To: <01216503D84044F990976F7B828072A9@BrianDell> Message-ID: > "We?re talking about something universal something human beings never > did before. A dance coming out of relationship." "Never did before"? Is anyone really so gullible as to believe this guy? > "tango is only 50 years old!" Good grief. Next he'll be claiming to have invented it. -- Chris From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 19:13:41 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] In defense of the basic eight count steps Message-ID: <491223.56634.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK..I am up to my neck in Tango classes..almost every night of the week I am in a class, practica or milonga. It is costing me upwards of $250 a month (Astrid will be happy). I am taking class from three different teachers..one professes 'connection' and 'musicality'. other is just a darn good teacher who has taught almost all of the good women that I've had the luck to dance with. The third is an Argentine Tango Nuevo star who is the real deal and so I am in the class. This last teacher is the one I want to talk about. When he announced that 'This is the basic eight which you will be using for the rest of your Tango life'...I winced but was there for whatever he showed us.... we practised the basic eight for the first 1 1/2 hrs class.. what I liked is that we did it again and again and again and again...I got to try it several times with his partner a pro and she critiqued my form...I made a lot of mistakes.. I got some of it corrected. We used a variation which included a forward cross from where step five would ordinarily lead to a back cross.. we followed in the next class with another eight count series that included back ochos and front ochos etc etc.. very sophisticated stuff...for me.. I will continue with the next post. From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 19:34:34 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] In defense of the basic eight count steps Message-ID: <173302.53033.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anyway, after two classes, I am seeing side benefits to the basic eight study.. It boils down to the idea that; one needs a context around which to start to build some Tango form. 1. It's helpful to know where in the basic eight steps an ocho cortado would start from.. ie: I was taught the ocho cortado in one class (without basic 8) and it was just an isolated form that was out there twisting in the wind, I didn't know where/when to use it. When I was told to start it after step four, it made sense somehow...it existed in a context. 2. By being corrected on my posture and direction, collection etc etc....I am getting better form...the basic eight was good to use as a context within which to only face in two different directions (90 degrees) during the whole sequence..I learned something..I got less sloppy. 3. Timing..this is a biggie..one, two, threefourfive, six, seven and eight...or however they break down the timing..I am now dancing to timing in Tango..it is making my moves sharper and snappier...it is more 'tango'. 4. Improvisation...this is another side benefit suprise...sometimes when I make a mis step, I find that the timing continues, produces an alternative step and voilla we are still stepping and have completed a new series of steps without missing a beat and can' now start back to the originally intended series ..or not.. ok..not intentional improv but it led to a natural improvisation..I'm not sure what produced the smooth adaptation but it may have been all the practise with timing or just the snappy steps...I don't know yet but something worked better than had been working before. From barbara at tangobar-productions.com Tue Jun 17 03:30:52 2008 From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] In defense of the basic eight count steps In-Reply-To: <173302.53033.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <173302.53033.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4857682C.7010007@tangobar-productions.com> Aside from astonishment that Mario has never encountered the D8CB, he does have some valid points. Actually our students don't hear about it until someone asks and we are forced to explain. Al and I do however teach a 4CB, that is a salida from 2 to 5. In over 20 years of dancing tango, almost all of our teachers among the top living and dead, taught the D8CB. Of course, the Tango-L taught us the error of their (the top living and dead, very few of them performers, but none on the Tango-L :-) ) ways. We have always taught Step One not as the Dreaded Back Step but as an in-place preparation to dance, posture, listening to the music, connecting to your partner by .refining the embrace. We are specific and detailed about Steps 2 through 5, so rich in technical content and so frequently used by maestros in workshops, they do create a structure that is not only useful but a prerequisite for Intermediate and future classes. Don't talk to me about Advanced dancers; I bet there aren't more than 3 on this List, and I'm not one of them. I wish that our Intermediate students would not rebel at spending a number of weeks exploring and refining the 2-5 basic.(The Puerto Vallarta tango community is not established enough for us to risk losing one devotee). We don't teach the Tango Close until it is unavoidable. Nevertheless in almost all workshops we've attended and almost all tango instructional videos, including the most *enlightened* the backward One is used, and the Tango Close after every figure. Why can't they just walk? Mario's enthusiasm for a prescribed timing is less understandable. If one listens to the music, dances with intention and precision, the timing just happens ?no? Intention and precision are the operative words assuming listening to the music every possible waking moment for at least the first 5 years. And I don't mean Enya. Excuse the rant. Love to all, Barbara From buchboot at earthlink.net Tue Jun 17 03:50:03 2008 From: buchboot at earthlink.net (Moses Moti Buchboot) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:50:03 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Videos of tango fused with other dances Message-ID: <00a001c8d04e$c0bcbc00$6400a8c0@motifchm54y5df> Hello Guys. I'm thrilled to share with you few videos from my show "Dialogos" from October of 2006. All have tango fused with other dances. Tango/ Contact improv - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6KekwO6mFM Tango/ Flamenco - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A736nLp2gss Tribal Tango - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0aD4YPztI Enjoy Moses Moti. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Jun 17 08:01:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] In defense of the basic eight count steps In-Reply-To: <173302.53033.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I was taught the ocho cortado in one class (without basic 8) > and it was just an isolated form that was out there twisting in the > wind, I didn't know where/when to use it. Mario, please try listening to the music. As the step is danced to you. > When I was told to start it after step four, it made sense > somehow...it existed in a context. What tells us when to make a step is... the music. The only context in which the steps makes sense is... the music. Once you've experienced that, you'll understand why the context labelled "Step Four" counts for nothing. Barbara wrote: > In over 20 years of dancing tango, almost all of our teachers among the > top living and dead, taught the D8CB. Let's not mistake a means of making money for a means of making dancers. -- Chris From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 08:24:48 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] In defense of the basic eight count steps Message-ID: <320468.46749.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Some clarification; I have not tried (nor will I ever) to dance the basic 8 (nor any variation of it) in a practica nor a milonga. I don't like seeing others dance it neither ..it looks unimaginative. I am in my ninth month of dancing. The Vals and Milonga seem obviously doable...the slo Tango doesn't ..I can dance the Vals and Milonga 'to the music'..the slo tango seems to defy this. I can't figure this out, when I do, I will post about it here. I'm noticing some suprising side-benefits from doing the basic sequence over and over and over with the supervision of pro's...I'm reporting on it, that's all.. If practising the basic 8 or 5 or whatever, will break me thru to dancing the slo Tango with improv and good form, I will do it. I will eat spaghetti at the curbside if it will work. From hikikki at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 12:25:30 2008 From: hikikki at yahoo.com (kikki) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires-Performance-Eduardo Saucedo and Marisa Quiroga-Confiteria Ideal Message-ID: <808155.85318.qm@web56306.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Come and see them off before they leave for North America, Performance - Wednesday, June 18th EDUARDO SAUCEDO and MARISA QUIROGA their dancing is artful and elegant, innovative yet always connected to the essence of traditional Argentine Tango, at MiMilonga Confiteria Ideal Suipacha 384 esq Corrientes 9-10.30pm group class info at 155 1074738 or 155 1073379 From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Tue Jun 17 12:39:20 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:39:20 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] 8 Count basic Message-ID: <4857E8B8.9040702@lavidacondeby.com> I have never been led in the 8 count basic on a milonga floor in Buenos Aires. Only once, 5 years ago at Lo de Celia, when one of the dancers from Forever Tango wanted to make fun of how tango is danced in the U.S. Th 8 count basic is however used as a teaching tool. I used it myself with my former partners. It is useful for the lead and the follower. Typically here in BA the cross is the ocho cortado or ocho milonguero. You have to know how to lead it Mario to use it. You don't just do it. You don't just do anything without feeling the music. Ganchos, boleos, and whatever other fancy step you think you need to dance tango is useless without listening to the music. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10060e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From alex at tangofuego.us Tue Jun 17 12:43:08 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:43:08 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Mario's exercise for "slo" tango Message-ID: <20080617164641.EA65E116769B@mit.edu> Mario, This practice exercise might help with your "slo" tango. Tango music is an eight count "phrase" right? Try using the entire eight count phrase to take only one forward step. Just a thought. Alex From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 13:28:45 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:28:45 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] 8 Count basic In-Reply-To: <4857E8B8.9040702@lavidacondeby.com> References: <4857E8B8.9040702@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Deby Novitz wrote: > > You don't just do anything without feeling the music. Ganchos, > boleos, and whatever other fancy step you think you need to > dance tango is useless without listening to the music. Preach, sister! Indeed, you're closer to doing the tango sitting up in bed with headphones on listening to classic tango CDs and wiggling your toes to the music than just wandering around aimlessly on a dance floor doing ganchos and boleos (or what have you), not allowing the music to serve you any greater personal purpose than Muzak piped into an elevator to serve as pleasant background atmosphere. Huck From larrynla at juno.com Tue Jun 17 21:35:02 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:35:02 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] The 8-, 6-, 4-, 2-, and 1-step basics Message-ID: <20080617.183502.23476.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> -- 8CB as a kata The problem with the 8-count basic is how it is often learned - as a unit that you dance at a party. It is more like a martial arts kata - a figure with movements that you practice and can combine in many ways. But you should not do a kata in a real fight. Or the 8CB in a real dance. The 8CB as a dance figure (not a practice figure) may come from the way most ballroom dancing is taught - as a "suitcase" of figures. British tango (renamed International, Standard, or Dancesport tango to widen its appeal) is taught this way, out of a rulebook that specifies it in much detail. -- 1-step basic In tango there is only one basic figure - a single step forward, back, or to the side with your foot. The side step goes away from your supporting foot, or in front of or behind it. That is five basic steps, multiplied by two because you can step with your left or right foot. You can vary a step by doing it with different speeds. Or NOT stepping for a short time. All depending on what the music suggests to the leader. You can also turn your body, or pivot on the ball of your foot, at the start or end of the step. The result is the same, but a pivot uses less energy and looks more elegant. (It is also harder to control your body, because your foot-floor contact is smaller.) Fabian Salas and Gustavo Naveira struggled for years before they discovered the single-step-basic idea. This is a basic idea in modern dance, going back to its founding by those rebelling against the strictures of ballet. Even in modern-dance classes, however, my teachers did not begin with the single step. They taught several simple patterns. Then they taught us to freeze after each step, then explore the complexities of a step. How your middle body related to your upper body, for instance, or your hips to your knees and feet. The 1CB is useful for exploring the fundamentals of tango movements, to see how to better do traditional movements, and explore newer ways to do them, or newer movements that still fit in with traditional tango. I do not think it is a useful way to teach people new to tango. The CITA tapes I have seen of Naveira teaching, and Sala's three-volume tape/DVD set, do not use the 1CB. Maybe they came to the same conclusion. -- 6-step basic Teachers who use the 8CB can introduce it with the middle two steps taken out. This teaches by example that the 8CB can be broken up. Also, it isolates the very important cross-step and its lead-in step so that the teacher can spend more time on its subtleties. For instance, the teacher can have students do several lead-step/cross-step pairs in a row to exercise their mastery of those subtleties. And the 6CB is similar to the box step which many students already know from fox trot, waltz, and so on. Only the first of the six steps is different. This gives teachers a chance to discuss why especial care is needed with this back step. Also, teachers can show two variations of the 6CB - with and without the leader going to the right-foot outside position. -- 4-step basic Some Argentine teachers teach a four-step pattern called the baldoso. It is made up (in 8CB terms) of steps 2-3 and 6-7, which are two L- shaped steps. This figure is so simple students can immediately begin dancing, as opposed to practicing dancing. It lessens the chance of getting hung up on physical actions, and forgetting that dancing is a social and an artistic activity as well. Many students come to a class for the social contact. Every minute the teacher keeps students solitary is a mark against them in these students' minds. Dancing is also an artistic activity, melding partners with music inside the flow of the dance. Students need practice at this, at first guided practice within a class, then later by themselves within a milonga. -- 2-step basic When I began learning tango I thought the focus on figures in tango classes took too much attention away from musicality and connection with one's partner. I came up with a system incorporating and simplifying all the figures I knew based (mostly) on the two-step walk. More about this is at the link below. http://larrydla.home.att.net/basics_0.html Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Beauty School Programs - Get the career you've always wanted. Click Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiglKzPAVDX3gCPD6s78P0WE6PThqGgrV35A8xgRVmilUHvTU/ From alex at tangofuego.us Tue Jun 17 12:38:47 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:38:47 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A suggestion for Mario Message-ID: <20080618045351.781299DBAA4@mit.edu> Mario, Why don't you start a blog? That way, you can post as many videos and narrative posts as you like each day. You can also get more creative with sharing music, photos, etc. The blog won't cost you anything either. Another benefit is that your regular readers can add you to their blog reader/feeder and not have to go to Tango-L to read your insights. Just a thought. Alex From alex at tangofuego.us Tue Jun 17 12:44:59 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:44:59 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A suggestion for Mario Message-ID: <20080618054059.60826117C9F6@mit.edu> Mario, Why don?t you start a blog? That way, you can post as many videos and narrative posts as you like each day. ?You can also get more creative with sharing music, photos, etc. The blog won?t cost you anything either. ?Another benefit is that your regular readers can add you to their blog reader/feeder and not have to go to Tango-L to read (and leave public or anonymous commentary on) your insights. Just a thought. Alex From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 10:11:43 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A suggestion for Mario Message-ID: <256639.64219.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Alex, I have agreed to 4 posts a week on Tango-L. So, this is my last one this week. If just a few more complaints are posted, I will cease posting here altogether. So, this is your chance Astrid, complain and get one or two in agreement and you get rid of another boring newbie. Your stuff is soooo interesting. Today, I passed a basketball court and saw a 28 yr old doing lay-ups. The layup in whistleball is the basic 8 in Tango. It's used about as often and is about as interesting. His layup was not smooth. Either it's been a very long time for this dude since highschool or he never really learned it well. It started me thinking. It took a complete two years of frequent practise for me to be able to do a great layup along with other moves (nice jump shot, hook, etc.) You have to remember, this was when there were only 2 black players in the NBA and they weren't allowed to have their feet leave the floor..(check out old films). Anyway, by my third year, I could do virtually anything I wanted to do in basketball. Why should Tango be any different? Or come to me quicker? ..a nice relaxing thought! From alex at tangofuego.us Wed Jun 18 10:10:40 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:10:40 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Nino Bien :: Wood Floors Message-ID: <20080618141416.72805118353B@mit.edu> Anyone have any ideas on how I might go about finding out the wood species of the floors at Nino Bien? It would also be great if I could find out the oil they use, the buffing equipment/screens, and maintenance schedule/techniques. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Alex From hikikki at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 13:09:45 2008 From: hikikki at yahoo.com (kikki) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Saucedo and Marisa Quiroga 2009-10 Message-ID: <705996.31600.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> HOLA HELLO HEJ EVERYBODY We are going on the road with Eduardo, and at the same time co-ordinate his travel schedule for 2009 and 2010, if you want EDUARDO SAUCEDO and MARISA QUIROGA to visit your community, now is a good time to forward your invitation, - the passion and the beauty, - their dancing is artful and elegant, - always connected to the essence of traditional Argentine Tango, - their teaching -with excellence and always positive, - brings out the best in each student, encourages harmony in your group, - with focus on the dance and attention to details, - their visit will enrich your tango community with much joy and laughter - as it improves your dancing, EDUARDO SAUCEDO is also an excellent DJ - his music at your milonga will inspire you and your group to dance..... to keep in touch and for more info, www.kikkis.com hikikki at yahoo.com 155 107 3379 Kikki-cell in Buenos Aires www.eduardosaucedo.com.ar 155 107 4738 Eduardo cell in Buenos Aires From larrynla at juno.com Wed Jun 18 14:09:21 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:09:21 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Don't pick on XXXXX Message-ID: <20080618.110921.19739.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> Don't pick on whoever-it-is for his posts and their number. If they get really excessive the moderator will step in. Meanness like this is why some people never contribute to TANGO-L. And drives some away. Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iig8H3ehJULrJ3ivXZYooxtDgVSthOQIm1D5b22oLLbEC6unY/ From auclairdy at hotmail.com Thu Jun 19 00:36:00 2008 From: auclairdy at hotmail.com (Dyane Auclair) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:06:00 +0930 Subject: [Tango-L] milonga or practica in Vancouver Message-ID: I will be in Vancouver Canada on June 25-28th. Any milonga or practica around that time ? Dyane _________________________________________________________________ Be part of history. Take part in Australia's first e-mail archive with Email Australia. http://emailaustralia.ninemsn.com.au From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Thu Jun 19 20:31:13 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:31:13 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] MISC:Casa de Deby in Buenos Aires Message-ID: <485AFA51.5070702@lavidacondeby.com> If you are coming to Buenos Aires for your first time or 51st, think about staying with me in Buenos Aires. I have a beautiful apartment on the 17th floor of a secure building in Palermo. I rent two bedrooms that have new pillowtop mattresses, Egyptian cotton sheets and towels, climate controlled heat and A/C (individual to each bedroom), a cell phone for your personal use, along with many other nice things you would never get in any other place you might rent (including maid service 3 times a week). My balcony over looks the city all the way to Uruguay. Guests can use the kitchen (complete with microwave, toaster over, stove, refrigerator) and living room (with TV, DVD, stereo). The apartment has WiFi, you can hook in your own computer or use mine. My apartment is walking distance to Salon Canning, La Viruta, and Villa Malcom. Public transportation in Plaza Italia (4 blocks) is one of the best in Buenos Aires. The subte takes you to Plaza Bohemia and Ideal in 10 minutes, to Lo de Celia or Ni?o Bien in 25 minutes. The bus stops right in front of El Beso and gets you there in 20 minutes. Of course there taxis right outside the door any hour of the night. I can arrange Spanish or tango classes for you. You are welcome to come the milongas with me and sit at my table. My guests will tell you that when you stay with me you have a friend in Buenos Aires. They have gone to dinner with me and my Argentine friends, experienced what it is really like to live here in Buenos Aires. The only sad part is when my guests leave me. (Well OK, not all of them....) I still have space in September, part of October, part of November and December. Email me for rates and availability. You get the benefit of my living here permanently for 4 years. I can recommend just about any service you might need from dentistry to plastic surgery to pilates, hair stylists, manicures, and more. My email is dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com. My website is www.lavidacondeby.com and my blog is www.tangospam.typepad.com. (Featured in the New York Times travel section) Hope to hear from you... Beso Deby Beso Deby E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10070e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From politas at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:39:27 2008 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:39:27 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Don't pick on XXXXX In-Reply-To: <20080618.110921.19739.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> References: <20080618.110921.19739.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <485B185F.2070007@gmail.com> larrynla at juno.com wrote: > Don't pick on whoever-it-is for his posts and their number. If they get really excessive the moderator will step in. > > Meanness like this is why some people never contribute to TANGO-L. And drives some away. Hear, hear! It's not like the posting volume on this list is particularly excessive, or takes a long time to read. -- Myk Dowling From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Sat Jun 21 15:03:29 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] dancing Message-ID: <619304.29959.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is really, really cool; http://youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY Enjoy, Michael From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 22 18:26:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] "changes of direction" Message-ID: Can someone explain to me what a tango scientist means by "change of direction"? As here, for example: Level 3+ (elementary and better) means -you are confident with the basic steps (side, backwards & forwards), you can pivot confidently and have some experience with the cross, ochos and changes of direction; "side, backwards & forwards" is change of direction of travel, and "pivot" is change of direction of facing, so what other change of direction is there? -- Chris From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Sun Jun 22 20:09:27 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:09:27 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction - my take. Message-ID: <485EE9B7.000040.03100@OEM-COMPUTER> 'Changes of direction' - my understanding. This is something that is led and involves both partners. You both travel in one direction then reverse the direction of travel of both partners. Usually this is brief and you resume the original direction, but of course anything is possible. For instance a change of direction I often use goes like this: We travel in line of dance, I lead my partner slightly diagonal to line of dance (slightly clockwise). I am on her right side and move forward onto my right foot, she moves back onto her left foot. I pivot on my right foot (clockwise) and shift back onto my left (shorter step). At the same time leading her to pivot on her left and come around forward onto her right. She is now travelling forward (on my right side) and I am travelling back - change of direction'. I then lead her to pivot on her right foot (about 180 degrees) and then back onto her left as I pivot on my left to come around onto my right foot, again on her right side (or in line). We have 'changed direction' again and have resumed the original line of dance. This is a continuous movement with the momentum from the first change used to help the second change which involves a greater pivot for both partners. The lead needs a shorter back step to allow the follower to come around. These changes are like variations of the rock step but involving a pivot of both partners. There are many variations on changes of direction, they can be to either side etc. You may use crossed or parallel or change from one to the other in the middle. You can lead them from a sacada into an overturned ocho to start with greater momentum etc.etc. The change of direction I have described is fairly simple and doesn't need to be known by the follower as long as they have good basic walking skills. The leader's part is a bit harder in the second change as you need to pivot back then come around forward in line with your partner, into line of dance (as well as leading it all). It's more complicated to explain than it is to do! Of course I may be completely wrong about all this, but I am sure the list will let me know about it. Anyway it works for me. Thanks, Mel (NZ). From larrynla at juno.com Sun Jun 22 20:28:22 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:28:22 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes - the REAL tango basic Message-ID: <20080622.172822.7068.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com> Have you learned molinetes, also called giros? If so, you know what many Argentines consider the real tango basic. The linear pattern of the 8CB and its cousins are derided by some as tango for foreigners. "Mingo" Pugliese was one of the foremost champions of the molinete. Molinete means wheel and there are several variations. For instance, the man acts as the hub and the woman the rim, doing a grapevine around him, taking four, six, or eight steps. In another variation both complete a circle around a center point. And the man can do a grapevine around his partner while she acts as the hub. Giros make a lot of sense in very tight crowds. They are compact and do not have to travel, although they can. ______________________________________________ Here are some videos. The examples happens in the the first ten-to- thirty seconds. The grapevine done in 4 steps around a center point. (You can also do it in 6 or 8 steps around a center point. Or more pairs of steps if doing it in a line or long curve.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TQZmfgKmg In these two videos the man stays in the center. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfmmWqXTDKY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRe7verxzu8 Here the two dancers make a circle around a center point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPoBN-x--WM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wtBAjSdM1w You can add sacadas and barridas to giros. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54hsLwvx1iw And finally a beautiful longer piece by two professionals to a vals. They stay in the same spot, a small balcony or the top of a set of stairs. They do all three variations of the giro. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWRCYIc3Hqo Larry de Los Angeles ____________________________________________________________ Click here for low prices on a huge selection of popcorn poppers! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiesgN5BIr84IgBsufBf1XfgTGty0Ft8IDFuC7ETH8KHgcuw6/ From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 21:56:31 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 01:56:31 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction Message-ID: Dear Chris, (my opinion on tis subject) is: Change of direction is a term used by some dancers to explain the change of direction of a turn. In a turn the woman uses three moves: Cross back, open (a side step), cross front. This sequence is repeated as many times as desired. You will notice that in a left turn (counterclockwise - to the left of the man) - the woman uses her left leg to cross front or back and the right one to open. In a right turn (clockwise - to the right of the man) - she will use her right leg to cross front or back and her left one to open. Any time you transform a right turn into a left one or vice versa a left turn into a right one, this fact or transformation is called "a change of direction". Changes of direction may occur from a back cross , a front cross or an opening of the lady. These changes of direction require knowledge, moves and skills that need to be learnt. Changes of direction should not be confused with "change of front" . In a change of front the man is dancing following the line of dance, let us say - his chest is pointing to the front wall of the room -. Then he changes front when his chest points to the back wall of the room and his dorsum the front one as he dances walking back. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 23:27:31 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 03:27:31 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction II Message-ID: Changes of direction are not easy to understand. Change of direction from a back cross: A woman starts a back ocho, (let's say that she crosses her left leg back), when the left leg of the woman is the one crossing this is part of a left turn. So at the beginning of a back ocho the woman crosses her left leg back and this is part of a left turn. She could continue a left turn by opening with right and crossing front with left. But... If as soon as she steps on her left foot after she crossed back (her weight is on her left foot) I lead her to move her right foot forward to my right, (I step back with my left after bringing my right together to the left and changing weight) this unusual move is a front cross with her right leg and therefore, that particular step will be part of a turn to the right. This would be a change of direction from a left turn to a right one. Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchcashback From wenger at wenger-lehrmittel.de Mon Jun 23 06:51:37 2008 From: wenger at wenger-lehrmittel.de (physik_tango) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:51:37 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Tangodata In-Reply-To: <485559FC.6000805@lavidacondeby.com> References: <485559FC.6000805@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <485F8039.9070901@wenger-lehrmittel.de> Is www.tangodata.com.ar still hacked? Is there a possibility to see this sides? peter From al at sgi.com Mon Jun 23 07:13:49 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:13:49 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes - the REAL tango basic In-Reply-To: <20080622.172822.7068.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com> References: <20080622.172822.7068.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <485F856D.6080502@sgi.com> larrynla at juno.com wrote: > Have you learned molinetes, also called giros? If so, you know what > many Argentines consider the real tango basic. The linear pattern of > the 8CB and its cousins are derided by some as tango for foreigners. Given what "foreigners" can do to a ronda with just *one* back step and a forward moving pattern, one shudders at the tought of tango lessons using an in-place (and isotropic -- insert moves at any point and in any orientation!) molinete as the "basic", though. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 09:52:42 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:52:42 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Change of direction III - The cross who invented it ? Message-ID: Somebody asked not too long ago, who had invented the cross. >From the point of view of change of direction one can imagine that steps #3, #4 and #5 of the base are part of a turn to the left that is done in a straight line. (Remember that in a left turn the woman crosses front or back with her left leg and opens with her right one). Step #3: the woman crosses back with left. Step #4: the woman opens with right. Step #5: the woman crosses front with left. The occurrence of the cross in this way has then a ligical explanation and probably came to happen in a natural way. On the other hand : some people dance without crossing. Have you ever tried? Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback From alex at tangofuego.us Mon Jun 23 13:04:43 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:04:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction Message-ID: <20080623170818.D199B117C718@mit.edu> Cambios de direccion a la Gustavo y Giselle... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPqGzIZh79k From alex at tangofuego.us Mon Jun 23 13:08:13 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:08:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction - otra vez Message-ID: <20080623171148.533B5FAB621@mit.edu> Oops...sorry, I forgot that I had uploaded one of videos to YouTube...of Gustavo y Giselle... The first half is caminadas...the second half is cambios de direccion... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgnjOZxVsCw From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 10:13:19 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] fwiw my 2 cents Message-ID: <155350.96848.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa He comes from a long tradition of Tango and a very famous father who was a renowned teacher of Tango. ..for me, this couple really says it all when they dance the Milonga I agree completely with their feel for the dance and they express it the way that it truely is... http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=psb1E6xDUDk I've been told that posting a link to a youtube video and not saying much is NOT adding content to Tango-L Judging by the many emails I receive expressing appreciation for such posts I tend to disagree... What is 'content' anyway? ..are 'changing directions' full of content because they are full of words? From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 11:48:25 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] fwiw my 2 cents Message-ID: <640709.75740.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com ... >?I've been told that posting a link to a youtube video and not saying much is NOT adding content to Tango-L? ... >? What is 'content' anyway? ..are 'changing directions' full of content because they are full of words? ? Content to me would be for you to tell us what it is that you got ouf of?it specifically when you watched?a particular video clip. (BTW, most of the videos you point out I have seen before and so have, I am sure,?many others.) But, I am interested in what you find in those clips for yourself. What questions might come to your mind and such. Then, we can have a possibly constructive discussion, rather than pontification. Does that make sense? BTW, I have studied many a video of Julio and Corina (both on Youtube and on their instructional DVDs and other sources), have admired much and?adopted ideas I liked. If you are interested, I can tell you what specifically I liked and disliked. For example, I like very much their flow of dance. Their giros flow is nothing short of spectacular. I do not like thier embrace and posture. I saw a video my friend?took of them dancing in a milonga in Buenos Aires and it was truly spectacular the way they danced in such confined quarters. I would never want to dance the way they dance, it is not my dance, but many ideas in their dance are beautiful, very useful, and wiorth studying. One more thing about?Julio and Corina. they seem to dance all different dances pretty much the same (spectacularly technically well done) way. It is my experience that?every dancer must find his or her body which will lead them to dance the best they can. No amount of imitation will give them that. Ideas - yes; copying - no. Some time ago I found out that what I thought to be a drawback (my height) I was able to turn into advantage and now I take full advantage of it and can thus give my partner a unique experience of dancing - not better, but unique. I still use the following quote as a motto: http://dubravko.kakarigi.net/graham.htm?(you might need to copy and paste the link into your browser's?URL window) =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:25:48 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:25:48 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] fwiw my 2 cents Message-ID: <2B31D2BE-F36B-4353-AE28-6A46D85966FD@gmail.com> > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=psb1E6xDUDk Does anyone know the performer and title of this music that Julio & Corina are dancing to? Joe From joe.grohens at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:18:56 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] fwiw my 2 cents Message-ID: <30D407EF-0F34-41C6-802E-5915B3C7250B@gmail.com> Sorry - when I asked about the music for Julio and Corina's dance, I pasted the wrong URL. The music was Morena by Estaban Morgado. But, what I really want to know is what is the music they are dancing to here? http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=ECZJcbJ4rRU Joe From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 12:00:21 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Practica X and generation Y Message-ID: <157436.16967.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How will Tango Nuevo affect the dance in the coming generations? I am reading interviews with various proponents of the Nuevo approach and am just plain curious about how it will produce innovations in my own developing dance. One factor that is immediately apparent is that whatever 'new' in terms of steps/sequences that we see, will most probably be the result of 'Nuevo'. I am thinking that even the close embrace apilado approach will soon be letting in some 'fresh' step combos from this approach..(if not already) I haven't been around the scene for that long (9mos) and so, may be way behind what's already been negotiated between these two forms.. I can't help but notice that the couple in this video, spend most of the time looking at each other's feet...or belt buckle. I find this disappointing. http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=usLROP5iy_Y I suppose it's dance, I don't see the 'reason' for all the high kicks up between each other's legs...the music doesn't call for it..that I can hear...does it just feel good?? anything that Fromboli does, looks like 'dance' to me..even if the music doesn't http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=m8TKp4ech7Y From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 12:01:08 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Practica X and generation Y Message-ID: <294538.93120.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How will Tango Nuevo affect the dance in the coming generations? I am reading interviews with various proponents of the Nuevo approach and am just plain curious about how it will produce innovations in my own developing dance. One factor that is immediately apparent is that whatever 'new' in terms of steps/sequences that we see, will most probably be the result of 'Nuevo'. I am thinking that even the close embrace apilado approach will soon be letting in some 'fresh' step combos from this approach..(if not already) I haven't been around the scene for that long (9mos) and so, may be way behind what's already been negotiated between these two forms.. From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 12:50:05 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado Message-ID: <980316.46038.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=BGbCCYOwfqM&feature=related I like this video because it really shows the lean of Tango apilado from an interesting camera angle. Just look at the opening shot. CLASSIC! I also like the way this Milonguero dances. If I can do something like that at his age, all this suffering will be worthwhile. Anyone, naming his collection of moves will earn my gratitude. It looks to my untrained eye like he is working with a small variety of sequences all beautifully done From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 13:03:27 2008 From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] LAS VEGAS FESTIVAL!! Message-ID: <715562.60701.qm@web58803.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 7345 S.Durango Dr # B-107-278 Las Vegas Nv 89113 Contact 702-379-6057 Contact 702-372-9581 www.lasvegastangoweekend.com From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 13:06:41 2008 From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] NA-C,NA-W,NA-E Message-ID: <927386.63378.qm@web58803.mail.re1.yahoo.com> ? Dear Tango friends, ? Get ready for the luckiest, most magical of tango weekends?in... Las Vegas September 19 TO 21 2008. This will be one of the best tango festivals ever for many reasons. First, the energy and excitement of Vegas!! Second, this festival is created by dancers especially for?you, Dear Tanguero, to offer everything you want and deserve. Thirdly, it will be a weekend full of surprises plus teachers of the highest level,?THE MUSICALITY YES THE FESTIVAL WILL HAVE LIVE MUSIC IN THE CLASS!!! For more information, please visit our website:? www.lasvegastangoweekend.com ? We are waiting especially for you!!!! Fernanda Ghi & Guillermo Merlo??and Hugo Latorre?? for information call : (702) 372-9581 ? ? Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 7345 S.Durango Dr # B-107-278 Las Vegas Nv 89113 Contact 702-379-6057 Contact 702-372-9581 www.lasvegastangoweekend.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 15:04:19 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, Practica X , Generation Y and Mario Message-ID: <915193.35458.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I guess we all have to answer the question of 'why I dance' for ourselves. My thing is the connection, the music and yes, having a beautiful chick hanging onto my neck. OK..so, maybe the Universe doesn't care 'why Mario dances'..it sure doesn't seem to. I like the Apilado thing but I like the 'V' embrace (hinge) too.. ..and now, Tango N is making the 'simple' stuff look boring.. ..I feel embarrased when I just want to walk around the room at a practica.. ..everyone's asking me,,'but don't you want to do the steps that you practise in class?' ..truth is; I don't. I like the classes they are very helpful, they will produce results.. ..I am introduced to the 'timing' in the song, to being able to square off my moves so that they are at ninety degrees to each other and look 'Tango'...I am learning to finish my move when the woman finishes her's..things go smoothly that way..like silk! ..but when I am at a dance....I want to dance...I want the connection..I want to listen to the music..and I want to feel the chick close to me.. does that make me strange?? From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 15:49:13 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, Practica X , Generation Y and Mario Message-ID: <692099.99331.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, not counting the double post, this is my fourth and last post for this week. Wow, I get such a variety of informative and entertaining responses to my posts but they only come to me personally and not to the list...hmmm, I wonder why? From tango.society at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 16:33:01 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:33:01 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Practica X and generation Y In-Reply-To: <157436.16967.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <157436.16967.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Mario wrote: > > How will Tango Nuevo affect the dance in the coming generations? > Some said to me once "Tango is wasted on the young. They don't understand it. That's why they dance nuevo." While that may be an over-generalization, it does point out something I've observed. You find few people over 40 dancing nuevo. Why is this? Some of it is due to physical limitations. Nuevo is a dance exploring movements, often rapid, sometimes at angles uncomfortable for aging bodies. This isn't a statement about Darwinian fitness, i.e., that nuevo will survive because it is the dance of the fit; no, in contrast aging is inevitable and the young, if they want to continue to dance, will switch to tango. However, there is something more in this statement about 'understanding tango'. Tango involves a close physical connection between man and woman. In the Midwest US at least, I have found that young dancers are more squeamish about close physical contact than are older dancers. It may be the result of some perception of political correctness, but it is definitely also about your level of comfort with your own body. Young people, even with fit figures. may not be comfortable with close physical contact with the opposite sex. Older people, often showing the need for rather than results of a regular workout at the gym, are more comfortable with their bodies. It's part of maturity, accepting who you are and not worrying about what others think about it. But it's more than that. Tango elicits an emotional response. The sadness and sometimes romanticism it evokes speaks of life experience. The more times you've been around the block, the more you can connect with the emotions evoked by tango. Tango music speaks to you in ways no other music does. The tango dance allows you to connect with the emotions evoked by the music. You share it with someone else whom your trust. There's an emotional connection that may go with the physical connection. Not everyone is comfortable with that. They feel vulnerable with that emotion exposed. In contrast, nuevo is exciting. It involves using your energy and expressing it in movement. Young people have more energy, in addition to greater flexibility of movement. So nuevo appeals to young people. > One factor that is immediately apparent is that whatever 'new' in terms of > steps/sequences that we see, will most probably be the result of 'Nuevo'. > I am thinking that even the close embrace apilado approach will soon be > letting in some 'fresh' step combos from this approach..(if not already) Because of what I've said above, nuevo won't change tango. If tango changes, it will be because there is evolution within its existing framework,defined in part or even mostly by the culture associated with tango. If you remove the classic tango music, the characteristics of the embrace, and the emphasis on connection with partner and music, it could be considered fundamentally different enough so as to no longer be tango, despite what people may call it. On the other hand nuevo, as it already has in being based on tango, will draw from tango and may itself evolve. The inclusion of an apilado embrace in nuevo may reflect the transmission of characteristics of tango culture into nuevo. In recent years there has been movement towards marketing of 'nuevo milonguero' as an evolution of tango but think about it this way. Consider nuevo a noun that describes a dance form and milonguero as an adjective and you have the standard Spanish syntax of noun followed by adjective, meaning that 'milonguero' is modifying 'nuevo' not vice versa. Nuevo is new (!!!) and so is still defining itself. It will continue to change and may or may not survive. My guess is that in 15-20 years the tango roots of nuevo will be less apparent than today. And most of today's practitioners of nuevo will be dancing tango. Ron From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Jun 26 16:58:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction - otra vez In-Reply-To: <20080623171148.533B5FAB621@mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Mel, Sergio and Alex for your suggestions of what "changes of direction" means. Three different suggestions ;) And none of them that fits (as far as I can see) into the "Level 3+" of the original usage. I guess "changes of direction" is not then the Name of a particular step as implied by the context of the example usage, but just a description and so can apply equally to many different moves. As for ocho, sacada, boleo etc ;) -- Chris From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Jun 26 17:15:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Practica X and generation Y In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > it does point out something I've observed. You find few people over 40 > dancing nuevo. Why is this? One reason here in Europe is that almost all nuevo dancers are instructors, and relatively few dancers over 40 are interested in instructing. As to the nuevo-instruction correlation itself, for many, nuevo is only worth doing because of the commercial opportunities it provides. Most of the rest are selected-in by the fact that nuevo is acquired through instruction rather than dancing, and those who learn from instruction are far more likely to become instructors themselves. -- Chris From Crrtango at aol.com Thu Jun 26 19:51:38 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:51:38 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Tango history Message-ID: For those who are interested and/or curious, I have just finished the first of a four-part series on the history of Tango for the internet ezine "Smooth Moves" which can be accessed at: oakebooks.com/ezine/index.php The first part, which is now available, covers the period from the later part of the 1800's to about 1910 and examines the early formative years and the musical and cultural influences. The second will examine the years 1910 to about 1928, the third the "Golden Age" up to 1950 and the last from 1950 and after. They will be published quarterly with the second installment appearing around Sept. They are not long or encyclopedic but are instead meant to touch on some highlights of the history. Enjoy. (There may be a few typos...please excuse.) Charles ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Thu Jun 26 20:32:35 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:32:35 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Mel re: Changes of direction. Message-ID: <48643523.000033.02964@OEM-COMPUTER> Yes Chris I'm you are right. The term 'change of direction' is just a term that has been applied to moves involving a change of direction (Funny that), not one particular step. The example I described comes from the teaching of Gustavo Naveira and also Fabian Salas, and probably others influenced by them but I don't know them (I think Chico also uses this term for the same type of move). Of course they have many variations of this, but always it is the couple changing together. I guess others may use the term in other ways. I'm not even sure if the example I use came from them directly (Naveira/Salas). I did work on a lot of these 'changes' some years ago, but this one is more something that has worked its way into my social dance without really thinking about it. But if I do think about it and describe it I use this term. Placing it at a level is another story altogether! Funny, I didn't think my post got through to Tango-L as I didn't see it come back to me, and no one responded to it. That has happened before, maybe my post wasn't that interesting? Oh well. Thanks, Mel (nz). From milonguero505 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 27 12:32:02 2008 From: milonguero505 at earthlink.net (Paul Akmajian) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:32:02 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado In-Reply-To: Message-ID: He's not doing a "collection of moves." He's DANCING. On 6/27/08 10:24 AM, "tango-l-request at mit.edu" wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:50:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mario > Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Message-ID: <980316.46038.qm at web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=BGbCCYOwfqM&feature=related > > Anyone, naming his collection of moves will earn my gratitude. > It looks to my untrained eye like he is working with a small variety > of sequences all beautifully done From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Fri Jun 27 16:29:35 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The botom line is always $$$ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <573213.36675.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Just out of curiosity... Was not Susana Miller one of the very first dancers to create the distinction between "tango" and "tango close embrace (apilado)"? Some say she did so out of marketing reasons... sort of creating a niche for her own business. I dont know much about this, but it seems plausible that one may create clear distinctions in order to justify their own style and teaching fees. If you doubt what I am saying take a look at this page : http://www.tangodowntown.net/susanabio.html It is almost as if talented (or not so talented) dancers that are not able to reach the heights of true masters have to create their own little corner where they can shine for a moment their own dance style. I am a bit puzzled... Why cant we simply say... I like dancing tango with a close embrace. For me the most important thing is to give to my partner the best possible experience. If he/she likes apilado... why not?...; tango nuevo?... sure! And if I , for any reason, do not like the experience... I can always say...Thak you. Amaury --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Paul Akmajian wrote: > From: Paul Akmajian > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Apilado > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 9:32 AM > He's not doing a "collection of moves." > He's DANCING. > > > On 6/27/08 10:24 AM, "tango-l-request at mit.edu" > > wrote: > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:50:05 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Mario > > Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado > > To: tango-l at mit.edu > > Message-ID: > <980316.46038.qm at web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > > http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=BGbCCYOwfqM&feature=related > > > > > Anyone, naming his collection of moves will earn my > gratitude. > > It looks to my untrained eye like he is working with > a small variety > > of sequences all beautifully done > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From dchester at charter.net Fri Jun 27 19:37:55 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:37:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080627193755.8JAPY.570689.root@fepweb04> My understanding of the so called "Change of Direction" in it's original and simplest form, was a way of going from a back ocho step directly to a front ocho step, as well as the other way around. Typically from a Back ocho, one might do things like another back ocho, a side step (molinette), or a boleo. Similiarly, from a fromt ocho, the typical next steps are another front ocho, a side step, a boleo, or even a parada. Going from a front ocho step directly to a back ocho, would be an example of the change (as is a back ocho directly to a front ocho step). David ---- tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote: > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:32:35 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) > From: "Melroy" > Subject: [Tango-L] Mel re: Changes of direction. > To: > Message-ID: <48643523.000033.02964 at OEM-COMPUTER> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Yes Chris I'm you are right. > The term 'change of direction' is just a term that has been applied to moves > involving a change of direction (Funny that), not one particular step. > > The example I described comes from the teaching of Gustavo Naveira and also > Fabian Salas, and probably others influenced by them but I don't know them > (I think Chico also uses this term for the same type of move). Of course > they have many variations of this, but always it is the couple changing > together. I guess others may use the term in other ways. > > I'm not even sure if the example I use came from them directly > (Naveira/Salas). I did work on a lot of these 'changes' some years ago, but > this one is more something that has worked its way into my social dance > without really thinking about it. But if I do think about it and describe it > I use this term. > > Placing it at a level is another story altogether! > > Funny, I didn't think my post got through to Tango-L as I didn't see it come > back to me, and no one responded to it. That has happened before, maybe my > post wasn't that interesting? Oh well. > > Thanks, Mel (nz). From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 27 20:22:41 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction Message-ID: <414543.3157.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The way I look at it and teach it is that the so-called ochos are fundamentally examples of change of direction themselves whereby a movement in one direction is interrupted and the movement in the more or less opposite direction is initiated. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== ----- Original Message ---- From: David To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 7:37:55 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Changes of direction My understanding of the so called "Change of Direction" in it's original and simplest form, was a way of going from a back ocho step directly to a front ocho step, as well as the other way around. Typically from a Back ocho, one might do things like another back ocho, a side step (molinette), or a boleo. Similiarly, from a fromt ocho, the typical next steps are another front ocho, a side step, a boleo, or even a parada. Going from a front ocho step directly to a back ocho, would be an example of the change (as is a back ocho directly to a front ocho step). David From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 21:01:55 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:01:55 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The bottom line is always $$$ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is always marketing. Someone with tango dance skills communicates that knowledge in teaching, and the student pays for the instruction. This is not crime, it is capitalism at a very basic level - small business, something that has existed for thousands of years, perhaps longer. Some important issues are whether there is truth in advertising with respect to the talents and background of the instructor, and whether the product offered is accurately portrayed. In today's marketing, every tango instructor is the best, or even better and has a resume longer than a roll of toilet paper. There are no bad instructors. The same can be said for laundry detergent. Ask your friends whether a tango instructor is really good or whether their laundry detergent really gets out those tough stains. They will be more truthful than the ads. The accurate portrayal issue in tango is something else. If one reads the announcements of touring tango instructors on Tango-A, these days the majority are for instruction in nuevo. There are even numerous tango festivals where all of the instructors teach nuevo. There are numerous milongas at these tango weekends and festivals where nuevo is taught. Since a 'milonga' is a social tango event, this raises the question of whether nuevo is social tango. Since I don't take classes in nuevo, I cannot say whether nuevo is being portrayed as social tango in these classes, either explicitly or implicitly. I cannot say that I've seen this in any of the announcements or web pages advertising nuevo workshops, unless one gets into the gray area of 'volcadas for the social dance floor', 'back sacadas in close embrace' and the like, which are often advertised under the banner of 'nuevo milonguero' which implies, by the use of the term 'milonguero', that it is somehow related to 'tango milonguero', which is used to describe a variant of social tango. Others can perhaps cite explicit examples of nuevo being advertised as social tango. The implicit portrayal of nuevo is social tango is another issue. Except for the often cited tango oases of Villa Malcolm and Practica X, the rest of the Buenos Aires tango desert is overpopulated with social tango typically called 'tango de salon' by porten~os. Tango de salon varies along several dimensions in the angle and degree of offset of the embrace, placement of the head and arms in relation to the partner, the characteristics of the walk, among other things. However, it is almost inevitably characterized by some close embrace. Of course, nuevo is more often taught where it is truly popular, outside Argentina where, in some communities, it has become the de facto representation of social tango. One could argue that nuevo instructors are teaching social tango because that is what is danced at milongas in the communities where they teach. Inaccurate portrayal occurs when it is advertised as social tango in Buenos Aires, unless one defines Buenos Aires tango as what happens at Villa Malcolm and Practica X. I suggest that if you have doubts about truth in advertising in tango that you go to Buenos Aires and go to milongas where tourists are rare. The source of social tango is what the porten~os dance in the milongas. In my own observations, what is taught as social tango by instructors who specialize in social tango may or may not be danced by porten~os in the milongas of Buenos Aires. To some degree, all of them teach some Tango de Salon. Some stay very close to the core. Some spend more time on the unusual things that may be used occasionally at milongas in Buenos Aires (e.g., certain types of embellishments or interpretations of the music); this often produces dancers whose dancing style emphasizes the fringes rather than the core, e.g., constant embellishment, lengthy pauses, or dancing an entire milonga in traspie rhythm. Then there are some instructors of social tango who invent their own things. To some extent that is OK as long as it fits in with the general characteristics of movement and musicality in social tango. What is questionable is when something is taught that is not characteristic of social tango but presented as such, e.g, volcadas in close embrace. Despite the oft repeated statement that volcadas are based on social tango, I would say, "only by accident, not by design". You can't expect accurate evaluations of instructor competence in tango advertising. No one is going to advertise their limitations. However, it would be beneficial in the transmission of tango culture to have an accurate representation of the source of the culture. Otherwise, we are just ugly Americans, Europeans et al. adapting a foreign culture to our own tastes and stealing its name for supposed legitimacy. Ron From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Jun 28 05:43:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Re: Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The bottom line is always $$$ Message-ID: > nuevo ... in some communities, it has become the de facto representation > of social tango. > it would be beneficial in the transmission of tango culture to have an > accurate representation of the source of the culture. Otherwise, we are > just ugly Americans, Europeans et al. adapting a foreign culture... Europe?? Ron, I've never experienced or heard of a community in Europe where nuevo is "the facto representation of social tango". In fact I can't think of even one milonga in the major tango cities where nuevo is danced by more than a small minority. > You can't expect accurate evaluations of instructor competence in > tango advertising. No one is going to advertise their limitations. Agreed. That's surely why so many instructor couples hereabouts rarely dance in the milongas, and if they do, only as a couple. In London there are instructors who I've not seen on the dance floor even once during the ten or so years I've been dancing/DJing here. I can believe they've found it better for business to be judged on what they claim in their flyers. > Susana Miller ... http://www.tangodowntown.net/susanabio.html "Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango..." I've heard this is a fabrication. Does anyone actually have a copy of any Clarin article that said this? -- Chris From aydogan at tangoencuentro.com Sat Jun 28 08:09:38 2008 From: aydogan at tangoencuentro.com (Aydogan (El Encuentro)) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:09:38 +0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction In-Reply-To: <414543.3157.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: May be I am too generic but I could conclude this on positions; At a moment dancers have either cross or open positions relative to each other. If follower is led so that that (s)he arrives to the same position one after each other then the change of direction relative to the leader is achieved. Aydogan -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Dubravko Kakarigi Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 3:23 AM To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Changes of direction The way I look at it and teach it is that the so-called ochos are fundamentally examples of change of direction themselves whereby a movement in one direction is interrupted and the movement in the more or less opposite direction is initiated. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== ----- Original Message ---- From: David To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 7:37:55 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Changes of direction My understanding of the so called "Change of Direction" in it's original and simplest form, was a way of going from a back ocho step directly to a front ocho step, as well as the other way around. Typically from a Back ocho, one might do things like another back ocho, a side step (molinette), or a boleo. Similiarly, from a fromt ocho, the typical next steps are another front ocho, a side step, a boleo, or even a parada. Going from a front ocho step directly to a back ocho, would be an example of the change (as is a back ocho directly to a front ocho step). David _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From Crrtango at aol.com Sat Jun 28 11:32:32 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 11:32:32 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] url for tango history Message-ID: For those interested in the tango history article, try this url. My apologies, I didn't include the complete address in my first posting. You will have to log in but it is free. www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php Good luck, Charles ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 28 19:22:33 2008 From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The botom line is always $$$ Message-ID: <211179.12923.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Why cant we simply say... I like dancing tango with a close embrace. "? ? "Apildao" is a type of "close embrace" that relies on creating a shared axis, as opposed to "close embrace" where the partners remain more or less "on their own axis". ? It isn't just dancing close to your partner. ? It is difficult, if not impossible, to dance this style without the willing and skilled participation of your partner. From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 01:35:50 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The botom line is always $$$ In-Reply-To: <211179.12923.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <115347.7108.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com> This is exactly what I have been talking about.... I know people's responses to this thread are well intended. However, the point that I am trying to make remains the same....its all tango folks... one may after a while choose to dance in close embrace and then perhaps naturally leaning into a partner... others may start in close embrace and then decide to move a bit apart for the sake of experimenting with new movements and musical interpretation. Dancers change over time. Such division and animosity may over the long run prevent folks from trying a new style. As I said earlier... it is not necessary to create this division and segmentation (close/open; nuevo/viejo)... its all tango. Such division appears to me an attempt to exploit commercial opportunities. An earlier posting defending marketing as a valid practice, missed the point entirely. One may choose to learn one or two styles while others may choose just one.... Amaury --- On Sat, 6/28/08, steve pastor wrote: > From: steve pastor > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The botom line is always $$$ > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:22 PM > "Why cant we simply say... I like dancing tango with a > close embrace. "? > ? > "Apildao" is a type of "close embrace" > that relies on creating a shared axis, as > opposed to "close embrace" where the partners > remain more or less "on their > own axis". > ? > It isn't just dancing close to your partner. > ? > It is difficult, if not impossible, to dance this style > without the willing and skilled > participation of your partner. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 29 07:30:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado... and marketing. The botom line is always $$$ In-Reply-To: <115347.7108.qm@web62001.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > its all tango Yes... up to the point where it is not. > others may start in close embrace and then decide to move a bit apart > for the sake of experimenting with new movements and musical > interpretation. I've seen moves in workshops calling themselves "tango nuevo" that anyone else would call rock and roll e.g. partners swinging apart to the limit of arms' reach, connected by just hands, and then pulling back together again. This is the kind of thing that happens when a instructor finds a $$$ opportunity amongst students who don't know what tango is, but still will pay for more of it. If you say "this is all tango", then you rob the word tango of any useful meaning. -- Chris From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 11:45:41 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:45:41 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing Message-ID: ""Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango..." I've heard this is a fabrication. Does anyone actually have a copy of any Clarin article that said this? --Chris" I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . Monday, 28th 2006 : There is an article that reports that the famous Argentine Tango teacher donated the collection of her workshops to the children's Hospital in New Orleans for the damage caused by Hurricane Katrina. The archives searches were done under "Noticias" "Headings" (News). Still is possible that she may have been mentioned in some of the Newspaper magazines or supplements. Such as those that list activities in the artistic world. The important thing is that there were/are defferent tango styles. Tete and Susana were the first ones that decided to travel abroad to teach the milonguero style, a form of social tango, such as it was danced in Buenos Aires at a time when most of the other instructors were teaching Stage Tango, or tango fantasia. Cacho Dante also started to teach that style, and fairly soon most non-Argentine instructors did the same. The problem arises when certain people, ignoring the broad universe of tango, are convinced that that style or form of dancing is the only one. Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From stermitz at tango.org Sun Jun 29 12:33:20 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:33:20 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D1FF0CF-C8F2-4ADC-8CD7-DDC58F2ED8A0@tango.org> On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: > ""Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the > four most important influences on contemporary tango..." I've heard > this is a fabrication. Does anyone actually have a copy of any > Clarin article that said this? --Chris" I've read the article Chris is referring to, but it isn't saved in my email archives. His fabrication comment is a fabrication. > I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till > today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . See the article below from Aug 8, 1999. I was first exposed to the close, rhythmic style of dancing at Almagro in 1996. On that first visit I learned the important lesson that I didn't know jack about tango, and I would have to work a lot harder to get it. > Cacho Dante also started to teach that style, and fairly soon most > non-Argentine instructors did the same. Where are your statistics on this? Maybe 4 or 5 out of 15-20 Denver teachers teach or emphasize a very close, rhythmic style, 5 or 6 nuevo/modern (following Gustavo/Salas or adding elements from swing), 7 or 8 some variation along the classic salon to fantasy spectrum (sometimes its hard to classify). More important is the fact that most people in Denver vary their personal style, depending on the situation, partner or mood. In any given week have different venues: lessons, practicas, milongas and sometimes performances. By Irene Amuchastegui and Laura Falcoff Clarin NespaperSunday, August 8, 1999 NEW STYLES OF DANCE GENERATE CONFRONTATIONS AND POLEMICS BETWEEN MILONGUEROS For ten years, the proliferation of teachers and schools have been modifying the way to dance tango. Although the change is evident, it has heterogeneous forms. As a result of that, there is a new paradigm: today, anyone can dance. The static postcard of the milongas today, with its colorful mixture of "hippyoungster" and "old time historical habitues" united in the "ritual" of the dance, is not more than that: a flat image that rarely reveals something more than a repertoire of archetypes. Behind that frozen scene, nevertheless, an unsuspected and burning world exists where the old can be new, the novelty can be obsolete, a simple thing can be difficult, and the excessive is insufficient. And in that, on the other hand, all these values are in permanent change. Ten years ago, and in a symptomatic coincidence with the world-wide triumph of the musical review Tango Argentino, the social dance of tango began to rise from the ashes in which it had been almost buried for decades. It is known that throughout these last ten years, the panorama was modified completely. Today, hundreds of instructors shape thousands of dancers who attend tens of milongas. In order to have an idea, it is enough to take a look at anyone ofthe specialized publications (Tangauta, B.A. Tango), or to consider that at a single school (Estrella-LaViruta) there is an enrollment of 600 students. But beyond the numbers factor, the phenomenon of the contemporary milongas marks a historical change in another sense: a new change of direction in the continuous transformation of the styles of dance throughout the century. What is being favored today on the dance floor? If it is what can be observed with more frequency, one would say that three tendencies are disputing for supremacy: the Urquiza style, the Almagro style and the Naveira style, as the fans know them, - implying a neighborhood, a club and a teacher. They are not difficult to distinguish. Make yourself comfortable on a stool by the bar and you will see them move over the waxed surface: a couple that advances with long steps, touching the floor as if they are wearing gloves on their feet (Urquiza), is followed by other couple closely embraced and whose short steps adjust synchronously to the beat (Almagro), and behind, a third couple that unfolds all the imaginable variety of figures which the previous couples can do without (Naveira). Adding to that, there will be another couple schooled in the style of Antonio Todaro and belonging to an elite with technical formation, that alternates between the social dancing at the milongas and the professional stage performances. The fans are simultaneously protagonists and judges of the prevailing tendencies. In some halls, one or another one dominates. But on several "pistas" the practitioners of different styles mix with each other, they watch each other out, they appraise each other, they admire themselves or they condemn the others. The commentaries can be listened to between the tables, but they can be tracked all the way down to the Internet (currently a Tangolist site burns with opinions like: "So and so's dancing, looks like a cowboy with hemorrhoids"). Miguel Angel Zotto and Milena Plebs led the first changes at the beginning of the 90's. When they reconstructed in their spectacle Tango x2 elements of style of the popular dance, they revealed to inadvertent eyes of the public, the wealth of the world of the milonga. Then, the halls, and the classes of Antonio Todaro, bricklayer and milonguero, with whom Zotto and Plebs had made their meticulous work of stylistic archaeology, began to fill with new customers. A little later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her classes the propagation of which usually is known as the Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a true leveling off of the dance. Right now, the influence that registers greater growth is, perhaps, the one of dancer and teacher Gustavo Naveira. The faithful followers of his method of combination of steps and figures consider it "the acme of creative improvisation". The detractors, who detest the way in which the Naveira dancers move around the floor looking for space for their movements, define them as "the patrol cars of the dance floor." Naveira himself affirms: "a single person cannot be determining in the evolution of the dance. That's been happening from the beginning of the tango, and without stop, always because of a conjunction of factors. Now, what is arising is a system of improvisation of an even greater variety of combinations. And these changes are also transferred to the marking techniques to lead the woman". However, for disc jockey Horacio Godoy the future is in Villa Urquiza. Teachers Vilma Heredia and Gabriel AngiF3 also agree that many young people are focusing their attention to the floor of the old Sunderland Club of Villa Urquiza, where they still can watch the habitues of half century ago. "Urquiza is what it's coming," prophesies Godoy. "There is a group of kids that realized that the maximum wealth is there. I am not talking about figures, it's about the musicality and the quality of the movement. It's about a wealth of knowledge so subtle and complex that for the ordinary eye is imperceptible. " The trends, in any case, hardly draw up general lines: common characteristics, airs of familiarity. As it has always happened with tango, there are so many ways to dance as there are dancers (it is what highly distinguishes it from almost all other forms of popular social dance). And in the same way, there will be so many opinions on the question as thenumber of people on the dance floor. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 29 13:03:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: <8D1FF0CF-C8F2-4ADC-8CD7-DDC58F2ED8A0@tango.org> Message-ID: > I've read the article Chris is referring to, but it isn't saved in my > email archives. You're saying you have no evidence it of it at all, Tom? > > I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till > > today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . > > See the article below from Aug 8, 1999. An article which notably fails to corroborate the claim. -- Chris From stermitz at tango.org Sun Jun 29 13:22:33 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:22:33 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5488872C-8739-4F12-975E-0143CF186280@tango.org> I think I was clear. I'm saying that I have read it, but I do not have a copy on my computer. You can go find it if you like. On Jun 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Chris, UK wrote: >> I've read the article Chris is referring to, but it isn't saved in my >> email archives. > > You're saying you have no evidence it of it at all, Tom? > >>> I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till >>> today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 29 14:00:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: <5488872C-8739-4F12-975E-0143CF186280@tango.org> Message-ID: Tom wrote: > I think I was clear. I'm saying that I have read it, but I do not have > a copy on my computer. Er, no you were not clear. Having no copy on your computer is one thing. But do you actually have a copy at all?? > You can go find it if you like. Only if it exists... -- Chris From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 14:20:30 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <719370.65293.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Chris, I, too, have read the article Tom refers to and just two months ago read an article in Tito Palumbo's magazine where she was clearly named and designated as someone who is preserving the milonguero style of dancing, so she is recognized by portenos in the tango community. Not all information about tango is found online, you know. I have had workshops with Susana in the US. I have danced successfully with a number of the milongueros in BsAs. What is your problem with her? What teachers do you approve of? I don't recall you being anything other than critical whenever a teacher is named on this list, but please correct me. Nancy --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Chris, UK wrote: > From: Chris, UK > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing > To: Tango-L at mit.edu > Cc: tl2 at chrisjj.com > Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 2:00 PM > Tom wrote: > > > I think I was clear. I'm saying that I have read > it, but I do not have > > a copy on my computer. > > Er, no you were not clear. Having no copy on your computer > is one thing. > But do you actually have a copy at all?? > > > You can go find it if you like. > > Only if it exists... > > -- > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 29 14:47:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: <719370.65293.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I, too, have read the article Tom refers to Quite how you or he can tell, since neither of you have identified it, goodness knows. However... great - please do post the text. > just two months ago read an article in Tito Palumbo's magazine where > she was clearly named and designated as someone who is preserving the > milonguero style of dancing As are thousands. That does not make her "one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango..." > I have had workshops with Susana in the US. I have danced successfully > with a number of the milongueros in BsAs. So what?? > I don't recall you being anything other than critical whenever a teacher > is named on this list As a remedy for your extrememly selective memory Nancy, search this list for "Chris, UK" and "Gavito". -- Chris From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 15:08:14 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:08:14 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] apilado, marketing Message-ID: Now I searched the Clarin Newspaper archives from year 1997 till today. All magazines and supplements, text and headlines: There are only two mentions of Susana Miller one already reported in reference to Hurricane Katrina and another one, a brief reference to a congresman who takes tango lessons at El Beso and is mesmerized by the dancing of Susana Miller. (May 31st. 2007). Now two people, Nancy and Tom have read the note. I believe that they read it. I could not find it. Anyone can go to WWW.Clarin.Com and look in the archives under "Busqueda". Weather she is mentioned or not is irrelevant. Nobody can dispute that Tete, Susana and Cacho Dante were some of the first instructors to teach the milonguero style of tango abroad. I saw Susana in Boston in the early 90ies. and Tete in Columbus Ohio, also in the early 90s. in a workshop organized by Janis (presently from Bs.As.) and John Devlin. I am from Villa Urquiza so, my style was the one danced there, But most of us can dance milonguero when we want to do it; or we need to do it due to lack of room. Best wishes, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 15:08:57 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <484525.69565.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks, Chris. I have also had classes with Gavito. Nothing I heard from him contradicted what Susan Miller taught or vice versa. I guess, until someone can produce THE article, you will assume that both Tom and I are lying? You still have not told us what is your problem with Susana. Have you had lessons with her? --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Chris, UK wrote: Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 2:47 PM > > I, too, have read the article Tom refers to > > Quite how you or he can tell, since neither of you have > identified it, > goodness knows. Goodness has nothing to do with it. It is the article to which you refer - naming Susana Miller as "one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango" ( your quote) as published in Clarin. Neither Tom nor I are in doubt about which article we refer to. You, apparently, have difficulty comprehending what both of us write. > As are thousands. That does not make her "one of the > four most important > influences on contemporary tango..." > > > I have had workshops with Susana in the US. I have > danced successfully > > with a number of the milongueros in BsAs. > > So what?? Have you? > As a remedy for your extrememly selective memory Nancy, > search this list > for "Chris, UK" and "Gavito". > OOOOH! Mea culpa, mea culpa. From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 15:54:35 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing Message-ID: <72551.60011.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is all so edifying and anything but boring. I'm sure that Astrid is hanging on every post to this thread. From paulnkaren at earthlink.net Sun Jun 29 19:45:56 2008 From: paulnkaren at earthlink.net (Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:45:56 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sergio Vandekier wrote: > I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till today and > found only one mention of Susana Miller. (This post is from Karen.) The article was dated 08.08.1999. I added this page to my site: http://www.tangodowntown.net/clarinarticle.html From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Jun 29 20:39:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Susana Miller ... http://www.tangodowntown.net/susanabio.html > ""Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the > four most important influences on contemporary tango..." and today the website has been changed to read: Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, cited her as one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango > The article was dated 08.08.1999. > > I added this page to my site: > http://www.tangodowntown.net/clarinarticle.html That article does not call or cite Susana Miller as "one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango...". It doesn't call or cite her her anything. It mentions her once in a paragraph about Almagro style. -- Chris From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:12:07 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:12:07 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, marketing Message-ID: Thank you Paul for the correct date of the Clarin article : "La guerra de los roces" (The war of the roces). Roces means rubbing, friction. A reference to the "War of the roses" (a dynastic English war 1455- 1487), playing with the words Roses and Roces. The article in Spanish appears if you specify the correct date August 8 1999. It does not appear if you just specify the year 1999. The paragraph in question (in clarin) says: "A little later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her classes the propagation of which usually is known as the Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a true leveling off of the dance." The web page cited by Chris says : "Susana has probably put more people on the dance floors of Buenos Aires than any other single teacher. An article in Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, cited her as one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango, along with Miguel Angel Zotto, Gustavo Naveira and Gerardo Portalea. (Clarification & citation added by Karen 6/29/2008.) ". I guess everything is clear...finally...I hope. As I said before she did a good job propagating the milonguero style abroad. The marketing story was/is that it is the only possible way one can dance at the milongas in buenos Aires. So some people here in the USA started becoming upset by any one that used any other style at their milongas. Accusing them of not knowing how to navigate the floor, being dangerous, a continuous annoyance difficult to endure. Some started making the floor very small so that they could imitate the lack of space present in the crowded milongas of Buenos Aires. But all this is another story. Have a nice weekend, (what is left of it), Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3 From felixydelgado at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:58:34 2008 From: felixydelgado at hotmail.com (Felix Delgado) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:58:34 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: <8D1FF0CF-C8F2-4ADC-8CD7-DDC58F2ED8A0@tango.org> References: <8D1FF0CF-C8F2-4ADC-8CD7-DDC58F2ED8A0@tango.org> Message-ID: > From: stermitz at tango.org > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:33:20 -0600 > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing > By Irene Amuchastegui and Laura Falcoff > Clarin NespaperSunday, August 8, 1999 > > NEW STYLES OF DANCE GENERATE CONFRONTATIONS AND POLEMICS BETWEEN > MILONGUEROS > > What is being favored today on the dance floor? If it is what can be > observed with more frequency, one would say that three tendencies are > disputing for supremacy: the Urquiza style, the Almagro style and the > Naveira style, as the fans know them, - implying a neighborhood, a > club and a teacher. I know what Almagro (milonguero) style tango is because that is what I have studied most recently and what I now dance. I never thought milonguero style had to be danced using short steps. It is a high floor density that causes short steps, so it is not dictated by the style. I have never been clear on the real difference between milonguero style and Urquiza style. Both are danced in close embrace, right? I sometimes get the expression 'estilo Villa Urquiza' is just another marketing tool (just as is 'estilo milonguero'). What is it that characterizes Urquiza style? I don't think it is long steps. I haven't been to Buenos Aires, but I didn't think the Naveira (nuevo) style is danced in the milongas because it takes up too much space. (Maybe this is the style of tango where the long steps are really used.) > They are not difficult to distinguish. Make yourself comfortable on a > stool by the bar and you will see them move over the waxed surface: a > couple that advances with long steps, touching the floor as if they > are wearing gloves on their feet (Urquiza), is followed by other > couple closely embraced and whose short steps adjust synchronously to > the beat (Almagro), and behind, a third couple that unfolds all the > imaginable variety of figures which the previous couples can do > without (Naveira). Adding to that, there will be another couple > schooled in the style of Antonio Todaro and belonging to an elite with > technical formation, that alternates between the social dancing at the > milongas and the professional stage performances. Felix _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i?m Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 22:49:50 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Closing remarks on the Apilado, marketing thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <277356.43390.qm@web62009.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Sergio and Chris Thank you for the genuine effort to keep the discussion coherent, civilized, and even toned. I was compelled to write the initial posting after disheartening experiences on past milongas. In the past two years I have encountered some hostility from folks claiming that Apilado style is the only way to dance tango. While visiting a milonga for the first time in a certain mid-west city I was approached by one of the milonga organizer and literally belittle for not adhering to a strict closed embraced tango dance. In yet a second mid-western city, a dancer from Atlanta, Georgia refused to step on the dance floor with me unless I danced strictly close embrace! In both instances I conformed (in sadness) with the local requirements. On a very recent trip to Boston I had an incredibly pleasant time on the dance floor. Pamela and her husband (MIT tango instructors) were very hospitable and courteous. I also had the opportunity to dance with (two local dancers) Gina Mora and Debbi Hobson ... marvelous dancers... neither imposing a particular dance form. I believe our learning process is not limited to dancing alone. Students will learn much more than just steps from instructors. It would be wonderful if instructors would act more responsibly placing their marketing needs in a secondary place to teaching tolerance and respect to all styles. And Nancy in regards to your postings on Susna Miller... No one attacked her reputation ... its sad when peoples ideas and opinions are purposefully twisted and misrepresented as personal attacks. It is responses like yours that promote disruption and flames in online environments. Amaury --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Sergio Vandekier wrote: > From: Sergio Vandekier > Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, marketing > To: "Tango-L List" > Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 6:12 PM > Thank you Paul for the correct date of the Clarin article : > "La guerra de los roces" (The war of the roces). > Roces means rubbing, friction. > > A reference to the "War of the roses" (a dynastic > English war 1455- 1487), playing with the words Roses and > Roces. > > The article in Spanish appears if you specify the correct > date August 8 1999. It does not appear if you just specify > the year 1999. > > > The paragraph in question (in clarin) says: "A little > later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional > Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated > with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her > classes the propagation of which usually is known as the > Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the > downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding > requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted > naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on > the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a > true leveling off of the dance." > > The web page cited by Chris says : "Susana has > probably put more people on the dance floors of Buenos > Aires than any other single teacher. An article in Clarin, > the major Buenos Aires daily paper, cited her as one of the > four most important influences on contemporary tango, along > with Miguel Angel Zotto, Gustavo Naveira and Gerardo > Portalea. (Clarification & citation added by Karen > 6/29/2008.) ". > > I guess everything is clear...finally...I hope. > > As I said before she did a good job propagating the > milonguero style abroad. The marketing story was/is that > it is the only possible way one can dance at the milongas > in buenos Aires. > > So some people here in the USA started becoming upset by > any one that used any other style at their milongas. > Accusing them of not knowing how to navigate the floor, > being dangerous, a continuous annoyance difficult to > endure. > > Some started making the floor very small so that they > could imitate the lack of space present in the crowded > milongas of Buenos Aires. But all this is another story. > > Have a nice weekend, (what is left of it), > > Sergio > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your > chance to win. > http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3 > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 00:20:42 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:20:42 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza Message-ID: What is Villa Urquiza? See http://nastynest.blogspot.com/2007/11/villa-urquiza-tango-style.html The Villa urquiza Style, uses an elastic embrace. Usually close, but it may have variable light if required to do certain figures. It is danced in an elegant way, with long steps, most dancers step toe first but many step heel first, and some step in both ways. Everybody walks close to the floor. It is an style that adapts itself to social dancing or to exhibition or stage because uses all the elements that tango offers. Boleos, Amagues, sacadas, calesitas, cuchillas, dibujos, rulos, enrosques, saltos, chilenas, puentes, traspie, contrapaso, mordida, agujas, picadas, cambios, etc, etc,. The dance is adjusted to the partner, the music, the place, the available space, the mood of the moment. The skill and the age of the dancers. Here you have some samples of simple dancing and also more elaborated dancing in villa Urquiza. Villa Urquiza Style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE Gerardo Portalea y Susana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pORg6wxeV6Q&feature=related Mariano y Cosima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqovx7d2nfs&feature=related Roberto Leiva y maricel Gomez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTQ6pBYRsk&feature=related Alberto y Ester http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtAx1qrQqE&feature=related Roberto Leiva y Natacha Poberaj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZ9_ywdIhQ Finito http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related Best regards, Sergio >From Villa Urquiza PS. I grew up with the nephews of Gerardo Portalea. They still live in the neighborhood. I learned a lot from Nito and from Lampazo. _________________________________________________________________ Enter the Zune-A-Day Giveaway for your chance to win ? day after day after day http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V1 From keith at totango.net Mon Jun 30 01:00:40 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza Message-ID: <61058.65.93.55.171.1214802040.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com> Sergio; Por favor! y gracias!! :-) Real tango is so beautiful From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 07:26:44 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza Message-ID: <770458.75048.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "PS. I grew up with the nephews of Gerardo Portalea. They still live in the neighborhood. I learned a lot from Nito and from Lampazo."- Sergio Thanks for the YouTube research/links. Would you tell us some of the pointers that Nito and Lampazo gave you? It would be interesting to see what they felt was worth noting. mil gracias From tango.society at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 09:40:05 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:40:05 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: > > Here you have some samples of simple dancing and also more elaborated dancing in villa Urquiza. > > Villa Urquiza Style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE > > Gerardo Portalea y Susana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pORg6wxeV6Q&feature=related > > Mariano y Cosima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqovx7d2nfs&feature=related > > Roberto Leiva y maricel Gomez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTQ6pBYRsk&feature=related > > Alberto y Ester http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtAx1qrQqE&feature=related > > Roberto Leiva y Natacha Poberaj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZ9_ywdIhQ > > Finito http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related Except for the first video, these are videos of exhibitions, not social tango. The first video gives a historical account of social dancing by renowned dancers to whom the 'Villa Urquiza' style has been attributed. Listed below are links to videos of social dancing in milongas in Villa Urquiza recorded during the last 3 years. The dancing in these videos does not closely resemble the dancing in the videos listed above. Is it possible that Estilo Villa Urquiza is not danced much in the milongas of Villa Urquiza today? Indeed there are some differences I have seen in the distribution of dancing styles in the milongas in the outer barrios - Sunderland (Villa Urquiza), Glorias Argentinas (Mataderos), Viejo Correo (Caballito), compared to milongas closer to downtown, e.g., Plaza Bohemia, El Beso, Lo de Celia. Club Gricel. In 'downtown' milongas there are more couples dancing in an apilado embrace, whereas in the barrios way from downtown there are more couples dancing with an upright, possibly offset embrace, possibly with the woman's head directed inward rather than over the man's right shoulder, possibly in a V-frame (opened a little on the open side of the embrace), and these latter couples may open the frame a little temporarily for ochos and turns. All of the elements are probabilistic - they are sometimes present, sometimes not, and in just about every milonga in Buenos Aires one can see many variations along all these dimensions. However, whereas at some of the 'downtown' milongas mentioned one can sometimes see about 3/4 or more of the couples dancing in an apilado embrace, this embrace also appears to be present in at least half of the dancers at Sunderland Club. Is it possible (and this is said with sincerity rather than sarcasm) that Estilo Villa Urquiza is not very popular in Buenos Aires milongas today but that it is something from the past that is being marketed to provide tango instructors a niche? Videos of dancing at milongas in Villa Urquiza: Sin Rumbo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdN4SuMD50I Sunderland Club: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip2Xe19-VOk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRYbFPoT_Lk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_2xPvJSry4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PpDr6TDoIs&feature=related - Ignore the couple with bad technique in these 2 videos. They are obviously out of their element: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ2py7tNwA&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi1N22L5h9w&feature=related Ron From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Jun 30 12:24:05 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 01:24:05 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B51A67C5134CACA717EE439F0F693E@homePC> thank you for those great links, Sergio. This looks very close to how we dance in Tokyo. Here is a video from the milonga called "Villa Urquiza" in Berlin. It is exhibition tango, so different from what you showed us, but I totally love Chiche, he is soooo elegant! One of the best teachers I ever took privadas with, he has a very special way of teaching too. He was one of Pablo Veron's fellow students with El Turco in Bs As. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kip_gSy6SA&feature=related Astrid From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Jun 30 12:49:27 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 01:49:27 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza In-Reply-To: <50B51A67C5134CACA717EE439F0F693E@homePC> References: <50B51A67C5134CACA717EE439F0F693E@homePC> Message-ID: <2A0031FE204A42C4AE3C6336039EB2DF@homePC> and here is another one of Chiche and Ester doing an exhibition at Sunderland, Villa Urquiza in BA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPy66h-SsSU From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Mon Jun 30 13:07:59 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:07:59 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486912EF.9020009@lavidacondeby.com> I would have to concur with Ron. I find it almost laughable that people who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the Villa Urquiza style of tango. This form of tango, along with orillero is almost never danced anymore. I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from Pocho who is 84 years old. It is very demanding on the woman. I have seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins. Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto. Mimi taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she visited San Francisco when I still lived there. Orillero is the one form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man. The back step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa Urquiza it is not taught. You see it danced in shows but never in the milongas. Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001. In 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism. There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business community on how to maximize their business. Overnight everyone became a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour agency for tango. Prices went through the sky. After all, why should people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires. A pair of tango shoes now costs upwards of $90. Now that we have so many "new" tango teachers everyone needs an angle. It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina. So now people say they teach "Villa Urquiza", "Estilo Amagro", "Milonguero" or whatever else sounds good. People who have been dancing less than 2 years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers. It is horrifying. These people are the ones who are teaching and traveling. A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color page ads have danced less than 2 years. A friend of mine and Sandra's who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany for 4 months. It is pretty crazy. Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene. We go to the milongas to dance and see our friends. I never look out at the floor and think "Wow, he is dancing apilado" or "I want to dance with that guy who dances estilo Amagro." No, instead it is more like, "I want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day." or "Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo." (How beautiful this tango, who can dance with me) I don't ever recall my friends here in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever. They may watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que disastre). For us tango is always about the music. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10150e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From nina at earthnet.net Mon Jun 30 13:18:05 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:18:05 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al In-Reply-To: <486912EF.9020009@lavidacondeby.com> References: <486912EF.9020009@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <20080630111805.9hz2yztlmsoo088c@webmail.earthnet.net> Quoting Deby Novitz : > I would have to concur with Ron. I find it almost laughable that people > who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the > Villa Urquiza style of tango. This form of tango, along with orillero > is almost never danced anymore. I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from > Pocho who is 84 years old. It is very demanding on the woman. I have > seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always > danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. > Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins. > > Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto. Mimi > taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she > visited San Francisco when I still lived there. Orillero is the one > form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man. The back > step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa > Urquiza it is not taught. You see it danced in shows but never in the > milongas. > > Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001. In > 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism. > There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business > community on how to maximize their business. Overnight everyone became > a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour > agency for tango. Prices went through the sky. After all, why should > people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires. A pair of tango shoes > now costs upwards of $90. > > Now that we have so many "new" tango teachers everyone needs an angle. > It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina. So now > people say they teach "Villa Urquiza", "Estilo Amagro", "Milonguero" or > whatever else sounds good. People who have been dancing less than 2 > years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers. > It is horrifying. These people are the ones who are teaching and > traveling. A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color > page ads have danced less than 2 years. A friend of mine and Sandra's > who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany > for 4 months. It is pretty crazy. > > Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene. We go > to the milongas to dance and see our friends. I never look out at the > floor and think "Wow, he is dancing apilado" or "I want to dance with > that guy who dances estilo Amagro." No, instead it is more like, "I > want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day." or > "Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo." (How beautiful > this tango, who can dance with me) I don't ever recall my friends here > in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever. They may > watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que > disastre). For us tango is always about the music. > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) > Database version: 5.10150e > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From nina at earthnet.net Mon Jun 30 13:27:31 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:27:31 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al In-Reply-To: <486912EF.9020009@lavidacondeby.com> References: <486912EF.9020009@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <20080630112731.ri40lbxs3k804kgc@webmail.earthnet.net> Deby, How right you are! And how sad this is. I lived in BsAs in 1998-2000. I was there during the crisis of 2001. Now, every time I am there, I am looking for my Buenos Aires. I can find it still, but it is the Buenos Aires that has nothing to do with tango. The tourism has changed tango. The arguments for the economy and the benefit to everyone are true. But the change that happened to tango because of the tourism is grotesque to me. I no longer like the milongas and no longer like what I see. I do travel to more distant milongas where one can still catch a glimpse of the past. Villa Urquiza was respected as a place of tango. It still is, but only because of the old people from another era that still dance there. People like their barrio and are proud to be from there and dance there. If people want to call it a "style", so be it - it will help someone to remember that Villa Urquiza meant something to dancers long ago as a respected place of tango. It is true that no Argentine that I know ever discusses a "style". People just dance. They dance either well or not. Nina Quoting Deby Novitz : > I would have to concur with Ron. I find it almost laughable that people > who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the > Villa Urquiza style of tango. This form of tango, along with orillero > is almost never danced anymore. I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from > Pocho who is 84 years old. It is very demanding on the woman. I have > seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always > danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. > Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins. > > Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto. Mimi > taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she > visited San Francisco when I still lived there. Orillero is the one > form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man. The back > step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa > Urquiza it is not taught. You see it danced in shows but never in the > milongas. > > Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001. In > 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism. > There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business > community on how to maximize their business. Overnight everyone became > a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour > agency for tango. Prices went through the sky. After all, why should > people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires. A pair of tango shoes > now costs upwards of $90. > > Now that we have so many "new" tango teachers everyone needs an angle. > It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina. So now > people say they teach "Villa Urquiza", "Estilo Amagro", "Milonguero" or > whatever else sounds good. People who have been dancing less than 2 > years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers. > It is horrifying. These people are the ones who are teaching and > traveling. A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color > page ads have danced less than 2 years. A friend of mine and Sandra's > who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany > for 4 months. It is pretty crazy. > > Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene. We go > to the milongas to dance and see our friends. I never look out at the > floor and think "Wow, he is dancing apilado" or "I want to dance with > that guy who dances estilo Amagro." No, instead it is more like, "I > want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day." or > "Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo." (How beautiful > this tango, who can dance with me) I don't ever recall my friends here > in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever. They may > watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que > disastre). For us tango is always about the music. > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) > Database version: 5.10150e > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. From melvillefox at aol.com Mon Jun 30 14:40:40 2008 From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:40 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA8F7ED9C9FCA-1BF4-8F0@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Sergio Vandekier To: Tango-L List Sent: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:20 pm Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza What is Villa Urquiza? See http://nastynest.blogspot.com/2007/11/villa-urquiza-tango-style.html The Villa urquiza Style, uses an elastic embrace. Usually close, but it may have variable light if required to do certain figures. It is danced in an elegant way, with long steps, most dancers step toe first but many step heel first, and some step in both ways. Everybody walks close to the floor. It is an style that adapts itself to social dancing or to exhibition or stage because uses all the elements that tango offers. Boleos, Amagues, sacadas, calesitas, cuchillas, dibujos, rulos, enrosques, saltos, chilenas, puentes, traspie, contrapaso, mordida, agujas, picadas, cambios, etc, etc,. The dance is adjusted to the partner, the music, the place, the available space, the mood of the moment. The skill and the age of the dancers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Sergio, You make your description of Villa Urquiza style so broad, it covers most of tango. So just about everyone is dancing Villa Urquiza style. Isn't it great that your neighborhood has had such a prominent influence on tango!! How about telling us in your words what defines Estilo Villa Urquiza. The videos you reference are nice, but I've never seen anyone dance like that at a milonga in Buenos Aires. So is Villa Urquiza style tango for the stage? Mel From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:44:30 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:44:30 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza Style Message-ID: ***"How about telling us in your words what defines Estilo Villa Urquiza. The videos you reference are nice, but I've never seen anyone dance like that at a milonga in Buenos Aires. So is Villa Urquiza style tango for the stage? Mel" Mel, How about re-reading my initial note to get answers to your question. **What I am saying here is my own opinion, others may have a different one.** I am not planning to follow any arguments on this subject . I said clearly this style is for social dancing and for stage. I provided videos of social dancing and exhibitions so that you could appreciate the style of tango in all its beauty. Somebody else provided many videos showing social dancing. Like in any style you have those that are poor dancers, those that are mediocre and those that excel. ***"It is very demanding on the woman. I have seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins" IMO it is not demanding, you need to know how to dance tango, that is all. I wonder how many times you went to tango lessons at Sin rumbo or at Sunderland. ***"Would you tell us some of the pointers that Nito and Lampazo gave you? It would beinteresting to see what they felt was worth noting. mil gracias" Lampazo and Nito emphasized the need to walk with elegance. When I started to take private lessons from Lampazo, he made me walk, just walk, the long Sin Rumbo dancing floor for about one week. I had to walk toe first, in a line, external rotation of the leg (30degrees), caressing the floor with the toes, keeping a narrow line, brushing heels and knees together as one foot passed the other. While keeping an erect position of the torso, with forward lean and looking at myself at the mirrors on the walls. Nito taught the same walk, both advised to practice this walk at home every day, the same as Osvaldo Zotto. Summary: you can dance Villa Urquiza style just walking or with all the embellishments available to tango, or anything in between. If this seems to be a broad description of tango to you, I agree, it is as broad as the real tango was and still is. The other styles are variations of this root form, variations that select certain moves, or modifies them, to adapt the dancing to diverse circumstances. (Lack of space, keeping the torsos together all the time, simplification of moves so that more people can dance easily. Selection of moves for surprise or great expectacularity such as tango nuevo, modification of moves to achieve the maximum of elegance such as in Tango Elegante,(Orlando Paiva), etc, etc,. The name changed with time, Villa Urquiza used to be the mother or root tango from where the other styles developed. There many styles, everybody dances his own style, the styles known are groups of people that donce similarly but not exactly the same way. This type of tango remained somewhat more like tango was danced in the forties. You can take lessons at Sin Rumbo or at Sunderland, where you will find people of all ages and not only old people. Best regards, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ Enter the Zune-A-Day Giveaway for your chance to win ? day after day after day http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V1 From tl2 at chrisjj.com Mon Jun 30 16:13:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, marketing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Serio wrote: > I guess everything is clear... That the claim was fabricated - yes. That the organiser thought this practice was good for business - no. Or maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps it /is/ good for the business of selling classes. Classes are by definition marketed to those with less than average knowledge of tango, so perhaps this sufficiently reduces the likelyhood of an organiser's advertising being discovered to be false. -- Chris From dchester at charter.net Mon Jun 30 19:58:05 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:58:05 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza Message-ID: <20080630195805.73C09.152507.root@fepweb11> Sergio, Thanks for the informative posts. They are very much appreciated. Regards, David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza From: Sergio Vandekier Mon Jun 30 00:20:42 EDT 2008 What is Villa Urquiza? See http://nastynest.blogspot.com/2007/11/villa-urquiza-tango-style.html The Villa urquiza Style, uses an elastic embrace. Usually close, but it may have variable light if required to do certain figures. It is danced in an elegant way, with long steps, most dancers step toe first but many step heel first, and some step in both ways. Everybody walks close to the floor. It is an style that adapts itself to social dancing or to exhibition or stage because uses all the elements that tango offers. Boleos, Amagues, sacadas, calesitas, cuchillas, dibujos, rulos, enrosques, saltos, chilenas, puentes, traspie, contrapaso, mordida, agujas, picadas, cambios, etc, etc,. The dance is adjusted to the partner, the music, the place, the available space, the mood of the moment. The skill and the age of the dancers. Here you have some samples of simple dancing and also more elaborated dancing in villa Urquiza. Villa Urquiza Style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE Gerardo Portalea y Susana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pORg6wxeV6Q&feature=related Mariano y Cosima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqovx7d2nfs&feature=related Roberto Leiva y maricel Gomez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTQ6pBYRsk&feature=related Alberto y Ester http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtAx1qrQqE&feature=related Roberto Leiva y Natacha Poberaj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZ9_ywdIhQ Finito http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk8wGZQX7c&feature=related Best regards, Sergio >From Villa Urquiza PS. I grew up with the nephews of Gerardo Portalea. They still live in the neighborhood. I learned a lot from Nito and from Lampazo. From dchester at charter.net Mon Jun 30 20:02:47 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:02:47 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza Message-ID: <20080630200247.QMTQK.152592.root@fepweb11> Astrid, These are some great links. Thanks for posting them. Regards, David Mario, The bar has been raised. Let's see if you can top these. : ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [Tango-L] Estilo Villa Urquiza From: Astrid Mon Jun 30 12:24:05 EDT 2008 thank you for those great links, Sergio. This looks very close to how we dance in Tokyo. Here is a video from the milonga called "Villa Urquiza" in Berlin. It is exhibition tango, so different from what you showed us, but I totally love Chiche, he is soooo elegant! One of the best teachers I ever took privadas with, he has a very special way of teaching too. He was one of Pablo Veron's fellow students with El Turco in Bs As. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kip_gSy6SA&feature=related Astrid . . . and here is another one of Chiche and Ester doing an exhibition at Sunderland, Villa Urquiza in BA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPy66h-SsSU From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 14:08:55 2008 From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Chris' comments don't really seem to tell the story correctly. What I've learned from Gustavo Naveira and others is that there are only 6 'changes of direction' and each is a single step. They are: Right foot front cross to left foot back cross; Right foot back cross to left foot front cross; Right foot open step to left foot open step; Left foot front cross to right foot back cross; Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and Left foot open step to right foot open step. The second of each 2-step sequence above is the 'change of direction' and it's not just a rebound action but inludes a pivot. If done as part of a Giro, it changes the center of the circle. I believe Sergio already explained it perfectly but Chris didn't seem to understand. They're a lot of fun to dance, but not easy, and they're definitely not figures that you can learn by 'just dancing'. Instruction is definitely necessary. They're best done without the lady 'collecting', which is what makes them tricky to lead. Too many ladies learn to [always] collect as beginners and then do it automatically. It becomes a habit that later needs to be corrected. Jack ----- Original Message ---- From: "Chris, UK" tl2 at chrisjj.com I guess "changes of direction" is not then the Name of a particular step as implied by the context of the example usage, but just a description and so can apply equally to many different moves.