From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  1 23:13:40 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Estilo Villa Urquiza
Message-ID: <7077.77889.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

David, no bar has been raised.
  While I am happy that one Tango snob in particular is now sending her YouTube favorites
  I am unimpressed with her choices...Chiche and Ester make Nuevo look sincere.
    I could re send videos of Milongas where Javier and el Nene dance in with the public crowd...do you want to see that again...or perhaps, these;
  http://mx.youtube.com/profile_play_list?user=nacotete
  Richard Vidort
  Nene y Maria
  Nothing comes near to these guys..check out their playlists on my own YouTube page.
   Taste is a matter of taste and it is something that you are born with..take my word for it.

       

From keith at totango.net  Thu Jul  3 16:07:39 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:07:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Free download
Message-ID: <61516.65.93.53.173.1215115659.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>

I'm sharing a great song that is neat to hear without all the noise and
scratches it has come down to us with.

http://ToTANGO.net/ttindex.html

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  4 13:57:06 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:57:06 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <memo.20080626215800.3212E@HIDEchrisjj.com>
	<801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <BLU120-W4378C0089C63501C9D5281A99B0@phx.gbl>







Jack,

     Thanks for the clarity. One question: I don't understand your comment about these steps always including a pivot. I frankly don't see that a pivot it required in any of them, but the most directly linear, ie not pivoting, IMO would be the open to open ones. Where is the pivot in them?

     Thanks. When/where did you learn these from Gustavo?

               J
          TangoMoments.com


_________________________________________________________________
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From railogic at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  4 14:47:53 2008
From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <337726.11455.qm@web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Change of direction is simply change in direction of rotation around man.
  So a front cross followed by a front cross(or two back crosses) constitute a "change of direction". However, these kinds of "change of direction" are not "interesting". Therefore normally only the moves in the list below from Jack are considered "Change of directions".
   
  Pivot is "necessary" , otherwise they are only rocks steps. We shouldn't call rock steps by  fancy names like "Change of direction" :))
   
  IL

Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Chris' comments don't really seem to tell the story correctly. What I've 
learned from Gustavo Naveira and others is that there are only 6 'changes 
of direction' and each is a single step. They are: 

Right foot front cross to left foot back cross;
Right foot back cross to left foot front cross;
Right foot open step to left foot open step;
Left foot front cross to right foot back cross;
Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and
Left foot open step to right foot open step. 


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  4 16:03:32 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:03:32 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <337726.11455.qm@web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<337726.11455.qm@web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W8657EA26563AE16A2A6EFA99B0@phx.gbl>


IL, 

I guess it's valid to think of it that way, but I prefer to think we shouldn't trivialize the specialness of changes of direction by calling them "rock steps." IMO there is a nice element of surprise in those changes of direction in the list, that gives an interesting dance to the follower. 

But in any case, I'm still waiting for an answer/description to the pivot question. If I lead my follower to take a R back ocho, and I've stopped her momentum and then bring her forward (without collecting) into a L Fwd ocho, then we've changed directions (or rocked, or checked) but while I may then pivot her CCW and lead her to a R open step around me, that pivot is a part of the open step and not a necessary thing for the change of direction. As an example, instead of leading her to open and turn around me, I could change weight and open in mirror to her, and the whole thing would be completely linear.

           :-)

                 J


_________________________________________________________________
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
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From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Fri Jul  4 16:44:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080704214414.2664K@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Chris' comments don't really seem to tell the story correctly.

"The" story, Jack? I was commenting on the fact that there are clearly 
many different stories titled 'changes of direction'.

Perhaps as many as one per instructor....

> What I've learned from Gustavo Naveira and others is that there are only
> 6 'changes of direction' 

I suggest what you learned from Gustavo Naveira was that there are only 6 
of what Gustavo Naviera defines as "changes of direction".

--
Chris

From dchester at charter.net  Fri Jul  4 17:53:00 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:53:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <mailman.591.1215187902.29577.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20080704175300.OFZ17.692441.root@fepweb05>

Thanks Jack,

That is fairly consistent with what I have been taught as well.  You explained it better than I did, though.

Regards,

David

> ------------------------------
> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> 
> Chris' comments don't really seem to tell the story correctly. What I've 
> learned from Gustavo Naveira and others is that there are only 6 'changes 
> of direction' and each is a single step. They are: 
> 
> Right foot front cross to left foot back cross;
> Right foot back cross to left foot front cross;
> Right foot open step to left foot open step;
> Left foot front cross to right foot back cross;
> Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and
> Left foot open step to right foot open step. 
> 
> The second of each 2-step sequence above is the 'change of direction' and 
> it's not just a rebound action but inludes a pivot. If done as part of a 
> Giro, it changes the center of the circle. I believe Sergio already 
> explained it perfectly but Chris didn't seem to understand. They're a lot 
> of fun to dance, but not easy, and they're definitely not figures that you 
> can learn by 'just dancing'. Instruction is definitely necessary.
> 
> They're best done without the lady 'collecting', which is what makes them tricky to lead. Too many ladies learn to [always] collect as beginners and 
> then do it automatically. It becomes a habit that later needs to be 
> corrected. 
> 
> Jack  
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Chris, UK" tl2 at chrisjj.com
> 
> I guess "changes of direction" is not then the Name of a particular step 
> as implied by the context of the example usage, but just a description and 
> so can apply equally to many different moves.
> 


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  4 22:43:09 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Message-ID: <314079.42546.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I suppose it's just convention that has caused the figures described as 'Changes 
of Direction' to include a pivot. As Iron Logic says, without the pivot they become 
rock steps which are OK but are beginner figures, whereas I consider ?'Changes 
of Direction' to be more of an advanced figure. For me anyway :-)
Btw, I first learned them from Gustavo in BsAs, 1999 [I think]?when he was still 
with Olga Beso. But it needed other tuition and a lot of practice before I was able 
to incorporate them in my social dance. I learned the side step ?to side step varaition 
later and still don't dance these socially. They're not easy and the lady needs to be 
very aware that something different is happening. But they're fun to try out in practicas.
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: Jay Rabe jayrabe at hotmail.com

> But in any case, I'm still waiting for an answer/description to the pivot 
> question. If I lead my follower to take a R back ocho, and I've stopped her 
> momentum and then bring her forward (without collecting) into a L Fwd ocho, then 
> we've changed directions (or rocked, or checked) but while I may then pivot her 
> CCW and lead her to a R open step around me, that pivot is a part of the open 
> step and not a necessary thing for the change of direction. 


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  4 22:51:36 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Message-ID: <750538.91348.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

'Changes of Direction' change the direction of the turn in a Giro. Since the Giro 
consists of only 3 steps - side, forward and back and we have only 2 feet, I don't 
see how there can be more than 6. 
But I'm willing to be proved wrong if Chris can give us another example.
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
> "The" story, Jack? I was commenting on the fact that there are clearly 
> many different stories titled 'changes of direction'.
> 
> Perhaps as many as one per instructor....
> 
> > What I've learned from Gustavo Naveira and others is that there are only
> > 6 'changes of direction' 
> 
> I suggest what you learned from Gustavo Naveira was that there are only 6 
> of what Gustavo Naviera defines as "changes of direction".



      


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat Jul  5 17:15:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
In-Reply-To: <750538.91348.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080705221518.2960I@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> 'Changes of Direction' change the direction of the turn in a Giro. 
> Since the Giro consists of only 3 steps - side, forward and back and we 
> have only 2 feet, I don't see how there can be more than 6.

It's easy - just use a different definition of "changes of direction".

For example, "only two feet"? I wonder what you'd hear from those who 
dance with four. Perhaps they'd tell you that they do 6x6 = 36 changes of 
direction.

Or perhaps not, since the more feet you use, the less counting you need...

--
Chris

From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Jul  5 18:45:43 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:45:43 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
Message-ID: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

Jack Dylan wrote -------->
> Right foot front cross to left foot back cross;
> Right foot back cross to left foot front cross;
> Right foot open step to left foot open step;
> Left foot front cross to right foot back cross;
> Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and
> Left foot open step to right foot open step.

These phrases don't make intuitive sense, at least to those of us who have not taken Gustavo Naveira's classes.  Which means most of us who read this are just going to skip what might be an important discussion.

What about explaining just what a R/L foot open step is?  And what is a R/L foot F/B cross step?

Larry de Los Angeles



____________________________________________________________
Make your vacation more memorable with a luxurious vacation rental. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiflWOZiQYxnTYy1ydbBder3CzE6DMxF1rjO5om7h2VAPlF2i/


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  5 19:52:54 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:52:54 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
In-Reply-To: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W45A53312EFB6BBFB6A94FCA99A0@phx.gbl>


Side steps are open steps, and ochos are cross steps.

               J
          TangoMoments.com


_________________________________________________________________
It?s a talkathon ? but it?s not just talk.
http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat Jul  5 20:24:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 01:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
In-Reply-To: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080706012403.2960L@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> These phrases don't make intuitive sense,

Well sure. If they did make intuitive sense, people wouldn't pay Gustavo 
Naveira to explain them.

> What about explaining just what a R/L foot open step is?

Gustavoese 'right foot open step' == English 'right side-step'.

The astute reader will have noticed that the side step is no more an 'open 
step' than it is a 'close step'. And that the Gustavoese alternative 
'cross step' is no less an open step than the so-called 'open step'.

This is key to understanding the success of Gustavo's 'system'. Natural 
selection favours the terminology that is sufficiently nonsensical to 
become disseminated simply by discussion amongst those attempting to make 
sense of it! ;)

--
Chris

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat Jul  5 22:03:20 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:03:20 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
In-Reply-To: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080705.154543.28952.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <C9C9D1EF8D144A709C3BD773BF17272E@homePC>


> Jack Dylan wrote -------->
>> Right foot front cross to left foot back cross;
>> Right foot back cross to left foot front cross;
>> Right foot open step to left foot open step;
>> Left foot front cross to right foot back cross;
>> Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and
>> Left foot open step to right foot open step.

I did not follow the thread as I hate reading these mind boggling written 
descriptions, but this one sounds like a milonga to me, Larry.
>
Larrydla wrote:
> These phrases don't make intuitive sense, at least to those of us who have 
> not taken Gustavo Naveira's classes.  Which means most of us who read this 
> are just going to skip what might be an important discussion.
>


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  5 23:52:40 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
Message-ID: <877950.94602.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

The great thing about Naveira's terminology is that the lady's step is determined 
by her position relative to the man. For example; if the lady steps LF backward 
on the man's right side, this would be a LF back cross. This means, for example, 
that the man could lead her directly?into a Back Ocho or?a Giro to Left, both of 
which incorporate a LF back cross.
But if the lady stepped LF backward on the man's left side, this would be a LF open 
step. This means, again for example, that the man could lead her directly?into a Giro 
to Right, which incorprates a LF open step. He couldn't lead her directly into an Ocho 
without an intermediate step. 
To call the lady's step a LF backward step tells you very little about the possibilities of 
what might follow, whereas a LF back cross or a LF open step?tells you many things. 
This is a great help in understanding improvisation as it opens up a world of possibilities 
that you may not have learned in class or by trial and error on the dance floor.
Btw, I hope you've now realised that an 'open step' is not necessarily a side step. It 
could also be taken forwards or backwards. It depends on the relative positions of the 
couple.
Larry, I hope that helps and welcome to the 21st century :-)
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> What about explaining just what a R/L foot open step is?? And what is a R/L foot 
> F/B cross step?
> 
> Larry de Los Angeles
> 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  5 23:58:57 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What the heck is a Right foot front cross step?
Message-ID: <567797.34560.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Astrid,
These concepts are only of any value to the man, as?leader; they have no 
relevance to the lady, as follower.
So don't worry your pretty little head about it :-))
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp>
> 
> I did not follow the thread as I hate reading these mind boggling written 
> descriptions, but this one sounds like a milonga to me, Larry.
> >



      



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sun Jul  6 13:10:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Headphone Tango - the "new dance form" coming to a
	terrorist attack site near you.
In-Reply-To: <801423.10427.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080706181001.2960Z@HIDEchrisjj.com>

Video:

 http://current.com/items/89039727_tangocommute
 A display of unity and compassion on the third anniversary of the July
 7th London Bombings.

and

 Are you and your students ready for TangoCommute-London on the 7th of
 July on seven London bridges and in seven London train stations,
 generating compassion and connection for millions of London commuters
 three years after the London bombings?

 Please keep in mind, we are setting the stage for TangoCommute - NYC
 for the 9th of September 2008.
 I heard the NY TangoScene has already cought fire and is inspired by
 the innovative Tango Movement coming from the little but great British
 island!

 On 7/7/2008 the UK Tango community can make a real difference to the
 lives of millions of people, a day of national melancholy.

 [ full article at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tango-uk/message/7218 ]

Chris

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  7 20:38:00 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 17:38:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Commute
Message-ID: <283964.20987.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is this our own ChrisUK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPFUnCUG8-0

Please explain how this differs ( if it does) from a flashmob.  Other than not having audible music......

Thanks,
Nancy





      

From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 22:05:34 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:05:34 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Commute
In-Reply-To: <283964.20987.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <283964.20987.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3eff99210807071905u407788d4tb1eac66e7240b2d4@mail.gmail.com>

The number of people involved, perhaps?

mob  (mb)*n.**1. * A large disorderly crowd or throng. See Synonyms at
crowd<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crowd>
1.
*2. * The mass of common people; the populace.
*3. * *Informal* *a. * An organized gang of criminals; a crime syndicate.
*b. * often *Mob* Organized crime. Often used with *the:* a murder suspect
with links to the Mob.
*4. * An indiscriminate or loosely associated group of persons or things: a
mob of boats in the harbor.
*5. * *Australian* A flock or herd of animals.

:)

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:38 PM, NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Is this our own ChrisUK?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPFUnCUG8-0
>
> Please explain how this differs ( if it does) from a flashmob.  Other than
> not having audible music......
>
> Thanks,
> Nancy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From railogic at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 01:26:02 2008
From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:26:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Commute
In-Reply-To: <283964.20987.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <889293.87028.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I particularly liked the backstep by around 40 seconds mark :)
  ...a  cool move indeed from our UK "just dance" style:)) Thank you Chris.
  IL
  

NANCY <ningle_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Is this our own ChrisUK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPFUnCUG8-0

Please explain how this differs ( if it does) from a flashmob. Other than not having audible music......

Thanks,
Nancy


From kglass02 at centurytel.net  Wed Jul  9 11:41:58 2008
From: kglass02 at centurytel.net (Karen Whitesell)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:41:58 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Central Park High Heel Marathon
Message-ID: <002601c8e1da$53fa93b0$2f01a8c0@karensbrain>

I hope to hear that our tanguera friends in NYC were winners in the High-Heel Marathon going on in Central Park this AM.  Who else could do it?  We can dance for hours in high heels, why not run?  

Lucille, please keep us posted.  

I enjoyed dancing in Central Park in '98, the "Hit and Run" tango now has new meaning...

Karen

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  9 13:39:53 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
Message-ID: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK..maybe this theme was discussed in the archives....should I therefore only 
  research archives on Tango-L? ...and never post?  I'm sure that some would love that.
  Anyway, the new stuff is all happening in Nuevo, that's why it's called Nuevo...There
  are new combinations and new ways of looking at all the possibilities and what exactly
  the dance "Tango" is. The intellectual element is also in Nuevo, they are addressing the
  'structure' of the dance, de constructing it and attempting to make a 'science' of it all...
  Chris U.K. may see all this as 'Nuevo's'  blatant attempt to make a living but let's face it,
  Chris is overlooking much too much of the force and innovation of the new approach.
  My personal fear is that the close-embrace will be relagated to a few speak-easys in BsAs
  and more and more dancers will be expecting distance between the leader and follower.
  My turn-on is the connection. The music is wonderful but the Tango connection is like  making love,
  even better in some ways. If this connection goes, we lose a lot...at least, I do.

       

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  9 14:04:27 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
In-Reply-To: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <621773.85253.qm@web52202.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Mario says ... "My turn-on is the connection. The music is wonderful but the Tango connection is like  making love,
  even better in some ways."

Mario, you answered your own question.  There are enough leaders and followers that desire that smooth, soft tango to make the world go around.  Don't worry about nuevo.  It's there because it is great.  And, just because it IS there doesn't mean that people don't want passion!





      

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  9 14:20:30 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:20:30 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
In-Reply-To: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W52A44732437D63A146AA76A9960@phx.gbl>

My 2c:

First, as has been pointed out before, "close-embrace" and "nuevo" are not opposites. Nuevo is a way of analyzing the embrace, lead, and step possibilities. Some of the unique steps that have been developed through this analysis form the repertoire of modern, often young, dancers who are said to be dancing "nuevo style". Many of these steps and patterns are challenging or impossible in a close-embrace frame. They can only be done in an open or at least a flexible frame. So if a dancer wants to push the envelope of investigation into steps that the nuevo analysis suggests, then an open embrace gives them the most possibilities and creative opportunities. But there is a lot of cross-over in the categories, and there are other steps that might be considered nuevo that can easily be done in close embrace. 

Second, I agree completely that the connection is the most important element. But just because a couple is dancing open/nuevo doesn't mean they have no connection. Watch Homer and Christina in person. Their connection is obvious and deep. So it is possible to have a great connection, even in an open embrace. For me, though, the hug of a close embrace can create a connection a lot more directly, and short of dancing with a mate/partner, I've never had as deep a connection in open embrace as I've had in close embrace.

Third, your question, is close embrace doomed: I'd say no way. In fact, as the popularity of tango increases, and venues get more crowded, close embrace will almost be a requirement. But even more than that, the exquisite pleasure of a deep connection in a heart-to-heart hug is a drug that, once experienced, creates a demand for more. That said, it does require a comfortableness with one's body that often isn't present in young people. But as they age and mature, they may find a deeper appreciation for the simple pleasure of a hug.

          J
      TangoMoments.com




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From tango.society at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 10:18:45 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:18:45 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
In-Reply-To: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <820624.18317.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340807100718l715ddce9y4995ddeabc1f4bf7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>  Anyway, the new stuff is all happening in Nuevo, that's why it's called Nuevo...
>
>  My personal fear is that the close-embrace will be relagated to a few speak-easys in BsAs
>  and more and more dancers will be expecting distance between the leader and follower.
>  My turn-on is the connection. The music is wonderful but the Tango connection is like  making love,
>  even better in some ways. If this connection goes, we lose a lot...at least, I do.

By most accounts, what is now called 'tango milonguero' developed in
the 1950s, with roots in the late 40s by some accounts, so it is 55-60
years old. It survived 25 years of being out of custom in Argentine
society. Some form of tango in close embrace goes back in time even
further, quite possibly to the origins of tango in the late 19th
century.

There is no other dance that provides the close connection that tango
does. The longer a tango dancer has danced tango, the more likely a
close embrace is in his repertoire, and the more likely it is to be
used and preferred. These people are not likely to give up tango
anytime soon. The enjoyment provided by the close embrace is something
unique. It is also addictive.

Right now nuevo is popular because it is new and exciting. When nuevo
starts running out of new possibilities, it will lose some of its
appeal. A lot of people interested in nuevo are young and they have
life changes (marriage, children, career) ahead of them. Some of those
life changes will interfere with nuevo, not the least of which is the
physical changes that come with aging. Nuevo is for the young. Tango
in close embrace is for life.

I would predict that a greater percentage of dancers preferring tango
milonguero will be dancing in 5 years than those dancing nuevo. I also
think that if tango goes through a population decrease, nuevo will
drop in popularity faster than tango milonguero.

I think it is more likely nuevo will represent a tango evolutionary
experiment, one that may survive in some form, but in lower frequency
than it exists now. Perhaps it will evolve even more so that it will
be no longer recognizable as tango. Some say it is already there.

Ron

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 10 13:56:28 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340807100718l715ddce9y4995ddeabc1f4bf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <287148.42110.qm@web52207.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Actually, I disagree that nuevo will decrease. It may not be called nuevo, but it will still be there.  The reasons are simple.

Nuevo classes (or, really, classes with tricky patterns) are popular.  That drives the nuevo scene.

But, also, we are all better at some things than others in this dance.  The majority of men find it easier to go down the path of excelling at tricky moves than at becoming smooth.

And, finally, women don't, typically, complain to the guy's face that he is throwing her around.  So, without that knowledge, they will keep doing what "they are good at", so to speak.  

Here are two intersting questions:

1. What percentage of guys have looking good and having fun on the top of their minds?

2. What percentage of guys have being softer and softer on the top of their list?

I would guess that #1 far outweighs #2.  It is what it is!






      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 10 14:47:58 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:47:58 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Message-ID: <BLU119-W1104BFDC856EC10DA5674791910@phx.gbl>


Jack: You listed the 6 CODs as :

> Right foot front cross to left foot back cross;
> Right foot back cross to left foot front cross;
> Right foot open step to left foot open step;
> Left foot front cross to right foot back cross;
> Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and
> Left foot open step to right foot open step

I'm a little confused. I lead quite a number of other things that I think of as changes of direction.
For Example:
Left Front Cross (now pivot follow 180 deg CCW on left foot) to Right Back (Open). Backstep, not Sidestep. (This certainly can mess with women who don't follow since they are perhaps expecting that after the LFX they will either be led side to continue the turn or RFX as a front ocho.) This is essentially a rock step with a pivot in between. It is very akin to LFX (now both lead & follow pivot 180 deg CW) BRX except that by not pivoting with my partner her back right is open and not cross.

Cheers,

D. David Thorn

P.S. And yes Astrid - follows are not expected to get this. It does however represent the intellectual side of the lead process for at least some of us leads.

P.P.S. I know that I "left" the list, but somehow my request to be removed was ignored and I just couldn't help asking this.

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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 10 17:36:08 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:36:08 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
Message-ID: <BLU119-W2837B57F030D902FC20EFF91910@phx.gbl>


Mario:

I'm not sure why you might ask this.  All of the decent nuevo dancers that I know are entirely capable of dancing
close embrace, often do dance close embrace, and in fact may change embrace a number of times during a song to
incorporate various degrees of light.  Although I am sure that they do exist, I personally know no, zero, nuevo
dancers who think that they should not be proficient at all forms of dancing to tango music.

It is possible that your perception of a dichotomy between the open and close embrace dancers is a boggyman,
spawned by a vocal minority who seem to believe that nuevo is a bastard child of the one true tango.  I, and most
dancers that I know, think that it is all good, it is all fun, and the only question is:  What is appropriate to a specific
partner, a specific dance floor and a specific set of circumstances.  And often it is indeed close embrace.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

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From melvillefox at aol.com  Thu Jul 10 22:06:47 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:06:47 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W2837B57F030D902FC20EFF91910@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W2837B57F030D902FC20EFF91910@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CAB111E8617D03-678-13CA@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
To: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>; tango-l <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?

All of the decent nuevo dancers that I
know are entirely capable of dancing
close embrace, often do dance close embrace, and in fact may change 
embrace a
number of times during a song to
incorporate various degrees of light.

>> If they are changing the embrace during a tango, they are not 
dancing 'close embrace'. They are dancing a 'flexible embrace'. The 
feeling is completely different. The close embrace is a close 
connection because it is kept throughout the dance. It is not something 
to be thrown away for a turn (or maybe a boleo).

Although I am sure that they do exist, I
personally know no, zero, nuevo
dancers who think that they should not be proficient at all forms of 
dancing to
tango music.

>> Is there a bridge in Brooklyn you want to sell me? Most of the nuevo 
dancers I've seen are too busy thinking about their steps to listen the 
the music. Why else do they dance to music without rhythm? For example, 
'Oblivion' is a beautiful tango for listening, but there's no rhythm to 
dance to.

It is possible that your perception of a dichotomy between the open and 
close
embrace dancers is a boggyman,
spawned by a vocal minority who seem to believe that nuevo is a bastard 
child of
the one true tango.

>> "Bastard child of the one true tango?" Now why didn't this vocal 
minority have the cleverness to think of that one?

Mel


From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Jul 11 00:36:24 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 04:36:24 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is an OPEN mean?
Message-ID: <20080710.213624.4134.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>

Jack Dylan wrote ------> "Astrid, These concepts are only of any value to the man, as leader; they have no relevance to the lady, as follower. So don't worry your pretty little head about it :-))"

Oooh, are you in deep shxx, at least if any of the women you want to dance with are on tango-l.  And putting smileys after your message doesn't make it into a joke. I hope you don't pat your partners on the head and say "Good girl!"

He also wrote ------> "The great thing about Naveira's terminology is that the lady's step is determined by her position relative to the man."

"For example; if the lady steps LF backward on the man's right side, this would be a LF back cross. This means, for example, that the man could lead her directly into a Back Ocho or a Giro to Left, both of which incorporate a LF back cross."

"But if the lady stepped LF backward on the man's left side, this would be a LF open step. This means, again for example, that the man could lead her directly into a Giro to Right, which incorprates a LF open step. He couldn't lead her directly into an Ocho without an intermediate step."

>From my perspective as a professional systems engineer, with well over a dozen years experience working for NASA and Boeing deconstructing systems (including human systems) much more complex than than the Naveira/Salas effort, I consider the Naveira/Salas terminology poorly thought out. There's a whole list of requirements for good terminology resulting from such system analyses. One of them is that labels have invariant meanings. Labels that change the way you decribe is a no-no.

Perhaps the problem is that we're using English translations. Maybe the Spanish terms are instantly crystal clear to the average Spanish speaker.

So maybe you can give us a simple explanation of just what "open" and "closed" mean.

Larry de Los Angeles


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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 11 00:54:25 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Message-ID: <494693.20915.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

David,

A Change of Direction, as the term now seems to be commonly used, includes 
a change in the direction of a Giro.

A LF Front Cross is part of a Giro to Left?[CCW]. If you the lead the lady to a RF 
Back [Open] Step this is still part of a Giro to Left as is shown by the fact that the 
lady pivotted CCW. As the direction of the turn hasn't changed, it isn't a Change of 
Direction

In the example I gave - Left foot front cross to right foot back cross, the pivot would 
be to right [CW] and the direction of the turn changes from CCW to?CW.

In this type of terminology, it really makes no difference whether the step is a RF 
Open Backstep and a RF Open Sidestep. They're both just a?RF Open Step.

Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> I'm a little confused. I lead quite a number of other things that I think of as 
> changes of direction.
> For Example:
> Left Front Cross (now pivot follow 180 deg CCW on left foot) to Right Back 
> (Open). Backstep, not Sidestep. > 


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 11 02:40:57 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] So what is an OPEN mean?
Message-ID: <324591.17709.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,
?
I assume you mean the difference between an?'open step' and 'crossed step''.
?
OK, I'll do my best.
?
Have a girl stand facing you, feet together,?and then have her turn 90deg left so that 
you're on her right side. If she now steps LF back, this would be a LF Back Cross. 
>From your perspective, her LF has crossed behind her RF. I'm sure you'll recognise 
this as a step out of a Back Ocho or a Giro to Left [CCW].

Without her changing position, have her transfer her weight to her RF. This is now 
a RF Front Cross and, again from your perspective, her RF is now crossed in front 
of her LF. I'm sure you'll recognise this as a step out of a Front Ocho or a Giro to 
Right [CW].

Now again have her stand facing you, feet together,?and again have her turn 90deg 
left so that you're again on her right side. If she now steps RF back, this would be 
a RF Open Step. From your perspective, her legs have opened. This is clearer if you 
have her make an exaggerated long step. Also, for example, she can now pivot right 
to face you and, although her feet haven't moved [other than the pivot], it looks like 
she's made a?sidestep, which in this terminology, is also an open step.

A Tip - if either you or the girl have made a step and you're not sure if it's a crossed 
step or an open step, simply pivot your feet to face your partner with feet apart.. 

If you can do it, it's an open step. If you can't do it [because the legs are crossed], 
it's a crossed step.
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> So maybe you can give us a simple explanation of just what "open" and "closed" 
> mean.
> 
> Larry de Los Angeles


      



From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 11 10:55:09 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:55:09 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Message-ID: <BLU119-W110DAC644B214E58C1EE3191900@phx.gbl>


>> A Change of Direction, as the term now seems to be commonly used, includes 
>> a change in the direction of a Giro.

It appears that what you are saying is that a change of direction must do two things:
1.  It must feel to the follow like it is a rock step, i.e. change the direction of the follow
2.  It must change the direction of the turn relative to the lead (CW/CCW)
and neither one alone is sufficient.

For example, the two step pattern that I cited feel to the follow exactly like a LFX to RBX, a change in her direction,
but don't change the direction of the turn; while a front ocho LFX to RFX changes the direction of the turn but not the
direction of the follow.  Hence the restriction to the 6 possibilities.

Thank you for the clarification.

I have, incorrectly, included every thing that changed the direction of my follow.  Another example that feels to the
follow exactly like a change of direction but isn't is:
I lead follow LFX and step across her with R foot so she sacadas my left.  I now lead her RB (Open).  This feels to her
just the same as if it were a simple LFX then RBX.  But, because I have changed my location, and hence the center of
the turn, this is no longer a change of direction.  She is still going CCW.

Cheers,

D. David Thorn




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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 11 15:53:54 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:53:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Changes of direction
Message-ID: <142409.78730.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A picture is worth a thousand words
  and a YouTube video is worth ten thousand words
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/results?search_query=change+of+direction+++tango&search_type=&aq=f

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 11 16:48:58 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
Message-ID: <683772.45369.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 
  Well I've been after finding out what 'TRASPIE' meant for several months now..(4)
  Today, I think I got it and I am happy to share it here for those, like myself, who are not
   among the old guard, know it all, seen it before, readers of Tango-L (Astroid)
   
  Here it is..is Traspie a step? a rhythm? ..you make up your mine but happily
  I can now show it to you at 1:03 and 1:12 seconds into this video.. if anyone can
  add comments that would be appreciated..if I am wrong, please tell me and show me
  the right meaning of the word....with not soooo many words, I hope.
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-gW8S9T4E&feature=related

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 11 17:04:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Soon, we will be dancing to John Cage
Message-ID: <387821.20817.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ok..it's the music
  and the dancing        =  Tango Haiku
  and my confusion
   
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=d-dtDCj3Uac&feature=related
   
   
  in case you were wondering whether this post was adding 'content' to Tango L
   

       

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 18:46:16 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:46:16 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
In-Reply-To: <683772.45369.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <683772.45369.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807111546x74195addle50a98615b164deb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  Well I've been after finding out what 'TRASPIE' meant for several months now..(4)
>  Today, I think I got it and I am happy to share it here for those, like myself, who are not
>   among the old guard, know it all, seen it before, readers of Tango-L (Astroid)

     Before responding to your actual question, I must ask:  Do you
have to begin each post of yours with a whine or an insult--and
usually both?

>  Here it is..is Traspie a step? a rhythm? ..you make up your mine but happily
>  I can now show it to you at 1:03 and 1:12 seconds into this video.. if anyone can
>  add comments that would be appreciated..if I am wrong, please tell me and show me
>  the right meaning of the word....with not soooo many words, I hope.
>
>  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-gW8S9T4E&feature=related

     The only thing I see at 1:03 and 1:12 are a couple of ungainly large steps.

     As with so many tango terms, if you ask 100 people what something
means, you'll probably get a hundred different answers.  In my
travels, I've pretty much narrowed traspie down to two basic
definitions, the first very general, and the second much more
specific:

     1.  "Plain vanilla" (so to speak) milonga is just taking one step
per beat.  Traspie is mixing in some double-timing (often mistakenly
referred to as "syncopation" by dancers) here and there.  One
Argentine instructor I knew (can't recall exactly who) defined traspie
as "happy feet."  Here is one example a brief search on YouTube
produced:

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=n75p6oDGGdw

Instructors often stress that for it to be traspie, you have to
actually make weight changes, and not merely tap your foot.

     2.  Some people get more specific in their definition, talking
about a cross step.  For example, from the glossary on tejastango:

Traspie ? Cross foot; triple step: A walking step with a syncopated
cross. Using two beats of music the dancer does step-cross-step
beginning with either foot and moving in any direction.  See
Contrapaso and Rabona.

Contrapaso ? A step produced when you lock one foot behind the other.
For instance right foot steps forward, left foot locks behind right.
Now right foot steps forward again.  This can be done in single or
double time, in one instance or repetitively.  Also see Rabona and
Traspie.

     This interpretation is like the lockstep in the Quickstep dance
of ballroom dancing.

     Consider this video:

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=DrgTGTeeP5I

     Look at the step at 0:48 to 0:49 where he does a right forward
crossing step (ie. he steps forward outside partner), then steps back
slightly with his left foot, and then brings his right foot back to
meet (or almost meet) it in a sort of quick tiny cruzada.  From 0:51
to 0:58 he does a lot more of this.  The sequence from 1:59 to 2:02 is
an interesting variation.

     Now if you go back to the first Cleveland video, you can see a
forward lock step at 0:21 to 0:22, and some interesting stuff where
Oscar keeps crossing his left foot over his right on through 0:27.

Huck


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 10:18:01 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:18:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
Message-ID: <707095.6329.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mario,
Well, I thought I knew what a traspie is but all I see at 1.03 is a lurch forward 
and at 1.12 a lurch backvward - definitely not to be recommended in a milonga.
Are you being serious Mario, or is this an inside-joke that I haven't been around 
long enough to 'get'. Maybe we need more words?of explanation?:-)
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48:58 AM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
> 
> 
> ? Well I've been after finding out what 'TRASPIE' meant for several months 
> now..(4)
> ? Today, I think I got it and I am happy to share it here for those, like 
> myself, who are not
> ? among the old guard, know it all, seen it before, readers of Tango-L (Astroid)
> ? 
> ? Here it is..is Traspie a step? a rhythm? ..you make up your mine but happily
> ? I can now show it to you at 1:03 and 1:12 seconds into this video... if anyone 
> can
> ? add comments that would be appreciated..if I am wrong, please tell me and show 
> me
> ? the right meaning of the word....with not soooo many words, I hope.
> ? 
> ? http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-gW8S9T4E&feature=related
> 
> ? ? ? 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Mon Jul  7 21:31:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 02:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Commute
In-Reply-To: <283964.20987.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080708023158.2960P@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Is this our own ChrisUK?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPFUnCUG8-0

Yuk. Certainly not.

> Please explain how this differs ( if it does) from a flashmob.  
> Other than not having audible music......

Well, a flashmob does not generally attempt to promote tango schools off 
the memory of a tragic event that killed 56 people.

--
Chris

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 13:54:12 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Traspie
Message-ID: <188249.75179.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No Jack, no joke...all of the 'descriptions' (?) of Traspie here to fore..were so obtuse
  as to do nothing but confuse as far as I'm concerned.
  I had checked out Youtube before but it took the clearer explaination of Huck's to
  get thru to me.
  http://mx.youtube.com/results?search_query=traspie+tango&search_type=&aq=f
  Actually, what I've now discovered is that I've been doing great Traspie all along
  when dancing the Milonga. I was confused when one 'helpful' female detractor (the
  kind who go to BsAs every year and so think that they know it all) pointed her finger
  at me and told me that "You don't do Traspie in your Milonga"..she hated that I danced
  the best Milonga and never took a class in it...it really pains those 'class goers'.
  ..but whatever her definition of it is..I am no longer concerned..yes, I'm satisfied that
  the moves shown in the previous post are it....so, why so difficult???? duh

       

From dchester at charter.net  Sat Jul 12 17:24:51 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:24:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
In-Reply-To: <mailman.671.1215879003.29931.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20080712172451.FAFR9.83082.root@fepweb01>

Mario,

IMO, The traspie is basically a three step sequence of rock steps done to a quick quick slow rythym.  There can be several variations on it, but one version is Front Back Front rock steps (done to a Q-Q-S rythym).  I really didn't see much of that in the video you supplied.

Maybe this video will be of some help.
 
http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=bpJRhda4cfY

Regards,

David

---- tango-l-request at mit.edu wrote: 
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
>  
>   Well I've been after finding out what 'TRASPIE' meant for several months now..(4)
. . .
> if anyone can
>   add comments that would be appreciated..if I am wrong, please tell me and show me
>   the right meaning of the word....with not soooo many words, I hope.
>    
>   http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-gW8S9T4E&feature=related
> 

From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 18:56:25 2008
From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-W Las vegas festival 08!!!
Message-ID: <9661.2634.qm@web58801.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Remember early bird July 31!!!!!


Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 

7345 S.Durango Dr # B-107-278 
Las Vegas Nv 89113 

Contact 702-379-6057 
Contact 702-372-9581 

www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 20:01:17 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ....who am I going to learn from? ..and when??
Message-ID: <256369.38671.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK, this is my last post for the week ..number 4 or 5 ..but I'm keeping within the rules
  and to thank Huck for his enlightening post, I will not whine nor complain...
  I am about to complete 10 months of sufferingly trying to learn to dance the Slooo Tango.
  and it's time for a report.  I danced with a male follwer this week (repugnant because I 
  am dancing Tango to 'feel like a man') and he said to me "please, lower and don't move
  your shoulders because I'm trying to feel the step and the rest interferes") ..just like a 
  follower...throws tea on the fire...anyway, it seemed like good advice but now I find that 
  when I control my shoulders, I deaden my dance... what do you advise?
   I live in Phila. and am lucky to have some darn good instructors..I almost did the dreaded
  change of life of prefering classes to Milongas...(Chris)..but I'm still going to both.
   I notice that it's not the best dancer that I learn from by watching..but rather the one of
  my similar body type who dances THE pattern that I'm ready to assimulate..learn..and
  he dances it slow and sloppy enough for me to see it in all it's glory..what do you think?
   Anyway, I could do a few more posts on this subject but I ran out of posts this week..
  see you next week.  sincerely,  Flaco Mario

       

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 21:49:44 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ....who am I going to learn from? ..and when??
In-Reply-To: <256369.38671.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <88092.17465.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com>




--- On Sat, 7/12/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] ....who am I going to learn from? ..and when??
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:01 PM
> OK, this is my last post for the week ..number 4 or 5 ..but
> I'm keeping within the rules
>   and to thank Huck for his enlightening post, I will not
> whine nor complain...
>   I am about to complete 10 months of sufferingly trying to
> learn to dance the Slooo Tango.
>   and it's time for a report.  I danced with a male
> follwer this week (repugnant because I 
>   am dancing Tango to 'feel like a man') and he
> said to me "please, lower and don't move
>   your shoulders because I'm trying to feel the step
> and the rest interferes") ..just like a 
>   follower...throws tea on the fire...anyway, it seemed
> like good advice but now I find that 
>   when I control my shoulders, I deaden my dance... what do
> you advise?
>    I live in Phila. and am lucky to have some darn good
> instructors..I almost did the dreaded
>   change of life of prefering classes to
> Milongas...(Chris)..but I'm still going to both.
>    I notice that it's not the best dancer that I learn
> from by watching..but rather the one of
>   my similar body type who dances THE pattern that I'm
> ready to assimulate..learn..and
>   he dances it slow and sloppy enough for me to see it in
> all it's glory..what do you think?
>    Anyway, I could do a few more posts on this subject but
> I ran out of posts this week..
>   see you next week.  sincerely,  Flaco Mario
> 
>        
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 22:10:14 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:10:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] ....who am I going to learn from? ..and when??
In-Reply-To: <256369.38671.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <921005.39868.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Ooops!  I think my last post was an accidental hitting of the send button without actually typing something.  

Mario said a couple of things that I wanted to comment on:

Mario: "please, lower and don't move your shoulders because I'm trying to feel the step and the rest interferes"

I spent a year, or two, with women that knew me well enough giving me a signal when my shoulders tightened.  Sometimes, they outright stroked my shoulders.  They would also, as my teachers did, whisper for me to breath. I just wanted to say that you received very good advice.  Any tightness in your shoulders will take the energy away from your center.  I think some of the women, on here, could probably elaborate a lot more than I.  

Mario: "dances THE pattern that I am ready to assimilate"

I just wanted to comment that, yes, too, will look at some patterns.  But, much more powerful is when you notice the intensity, or energy, that a great dancer has and try that on for size.  It will never be the same.  But, it is a great way to learn to get your heart and soul into the tango.  This will help you much more, in my opinion, toward bettering yourself as a slow dancer.

I remember in my second year of dancing, there was this guy with more intensity than I have ever seen.  I am not sure if he spoke English.  I never saw him talk.  Actually, I never saw him dance with anyone but his girlfriend (or wife?).  Anyway, I used to pick a song and "mimick" him.  Wow!  My brows were knit, my left hand was high like his, my posture was upright like I was flexing.  That's what I saw.  That's what I did!  I don't dance like that often.  But, time and time, again, I will pick a song and dance like him.  When I do, it is the most intense dance of my night.  

Other times, I will picture some of the great dynamic dancers that I have seen in the past and I will, as my private instructor advised, try to dance like them.  It is the most instrumental technique that I have to, I guess, break myself off of a plateau.

Sometimes, I emulate patterns and steps.  That's great, too.  But, to become a master of feeling the music, look around and observe those who ... bring the music to life.  Look for those who swell into a long, dynamic step.  Look for those who noticably dance behind the beat.  Etc.

Ugh!  Here I am sitting home on a Saturday night while everyone else is out at the milonga and I had to go and write that!  Well, at least, I am listening to Gotan Project while writing!



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 13 00:41:13 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie
Message-ID: <737041.37503.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mario,

I'm sure you're doing a great Traspie - as you say ..."why so difficult?". 3 short 
steps in 2 beats of music. Well, my friend, the difficult part is leading the lady 
to do an equally great Traspie. I see lots of guys doing 'great' Traspie while the 
lady is just shuffling her feet and doesn't really have a clue what's going on. 
The guy, of course, is totally oblivious to this as he can't see her feet and the 
girl is too polite to tell the guy.

Maybe this is what your helpful follower was trying to tell you, because if she's 
not dancing Traspie?then you're not dancing Traspie, regardless of what your 
feet are doing. What I mean is, you need to dance Traspie with your body and 
not just your feet. Ask a friend to video you and then you can check if the girl 
is doing what you think she's doing.

One final point - ALWAYS listen when a partner says something about your 
dance. After all, you're dancing for her, not yourself - aren't you?? And she 
probably knows something about your dance that you don't. Feedback from
partners is like gold.

Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> ? Actually, what I've now discovered is that I've been doing great Traspie all 
> along
> ? when dancing the Milonga. I was confused when one 'helpful' female detractor 
> (the
> ? kind who go to BsAs every year and so think that they know it all) pointed her 
> finger
> ? at me and told me that "You don't do Traspie in your Milonga"..she hated that 
> I danced
> ? the best Milonga and never took a class in it...it really pains those 'class 
> goers'.
> ? ..but whatever her definition of it is..I am no longer concerned..yes, I'm 
> satisfied that
> ? the moves shown in the previous post are it....so, why so difficult???? duh
> 
> ? ? ? 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      



From bibibwong at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 13 06:55:22 2008
From: bibibwong at hotmail.com (bibibwong@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:55:22 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Slow tango
Message-ID: <BAY144-DAV1EF9D7B308D1C359D4D4EBC920@phx.gbl>

I once in BS AS saw a newly wed couple (2002?) who danced exclusively with each other, a muscular gent from Chile, a lady from France (I was told a previous ballerina), of similar height, who danced the most spectacularly beautiful slow tango. 

He always led neatly at the very edge of the floor, that made the rest of the already well-behaved dancers there looked like speedy Tasmanian Devils twirling around the floor.  They treasured every step, well poised in every moment, their minds absorbed in the music, simply hippnotic to watch all evening.     

When I finally worked up my courage to ask who they were in El Beso, it turned out that it was the final night they stayed in Bs As for that trip after a week long teaching there. 

So if you know who I am referring to, please let me know. I have their picture.  I suspect they are teaching either in France or Chile now. 

Bibi


Sent from PDA and may contain errors


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 13 10:42:59 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:42:59 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie - contrapaso
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5017D10CDF70D5976D80A897920@phx.gbl>




Etymology:  Tras means behind, and pie means foot.  

Traspie is a sequence where (to give and example) you step forward with right foot then you lock your left foot behind the right one, you place 
your weight on that left foot and step forward with right. In my opinion this can be done "on time" (exactly as the other steps are done) or "double time".

You may repeat this sequence starting with left foot forward and locking the right behind. and repeat with right forward; as many times as you wish.

Despite of its etymological name this sequences can also be done without locking your foot behind.  To the side, for instance, when you do a series of repetitive
"chasees" double timing. Chasees: you step to one side, let's say, left side with left foot, then bring the right foot close to the left one, then open to the same side with left bring the right one close to the left, and repeat as many times as you wish.


The man can do traspie (also called "contrapaso") on time or double time, while the woman just walks backwards on time, or he can do it while leading her to do it as well.

So the woman may or may not do it. 

There are many ways to do a sequence of three or more steps double timing: while the man goes forward, while he goes backwards, while he moves either to
his left or to his right.

There is a lead for traspie or chasees in any direction, so that the woman will do it at the same time as the man .

Traspie is used in tango, milonga and vals.

Have a good Sunday, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
The i?m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?
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From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 22:54:02 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:54:02 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?La_Valse_Chaloup=E9e?=
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0807131954o459f1419v8c3c45f2b8aeccf1@mail.gmail.com>

I think it's time for another reminder that there is nothing new about
'nuevo'.

Neil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlgaqzOBBDo

From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Mon Jul 14 05:12:47 2008
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:12:47 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?La_Valse_Chaloup=E9e_?=
Message-ID: <487B188F.000005.03984@OEM-COMPUTER>

Wow - Great Tango!, Love it!!
Did I see some 'Traspie' in there, maybe even some ....... 'Changes of
direction'.
Better study this one closely.

Thanks, Neil.

Mel. (nz).

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 14 09:37:18 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:37:18 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Traspie - contrapaso
Message-ID: <BAY105-W173ABA90B98B63DFC41CB2978D0@phx.gbl>


   "Does it mean that traspie is just what we would call "change of a foot"?"

Hi Igor,

            It is possible that what you call change of foot and traspie are the same.

In tango we call "change of foot" "Cambios",   when for instance,  you are in a position with (let us say) the right foot locked behind the left one and you wish to step forward with right. You cross the left behind the right and step forward with right.   

These "cambios" or changes are sometimes repeated "for effect" left foot locks behind, right foot locks behind, left foot locks behind.

Sergio


_________________________________________________________________
Making the world a better place one message at a time.
http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 14 09:47:17 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:47:17 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Apache_dance_-_La_valse_Chaloup=E9e?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W46E2AFB0C7515EC4341F77978D0@phx.gbl>


Dear friends "La valse chaloup?e" seems to be a tango as described by Mel (NZ), but in actuality it is not a tango, it is an Apache Dance and in this particular
case a Vals.

In any case we will start to immitate this style in our tango group, the girls are very excited with this idea.

Mario, who do you want to practice with?  :))

Apache is a highly dramatic dance associated in popular culture with Parisian street culture in the beginning of the 20th century. The name of the dance is pronounced ah-PAHSH (not ah-PATCH-ee, like the Native American tribe). The dance is named after the nickname of street gang members, Apaches.

The dance is very brutal to the woman, and sometimes said to reenact a "discussion" between pimp and prostitute. It includes mock slaps and punches, the man picking up and throwing the woman to the ground, or lifting and carrying her while she struggles or feigns unconsciousness. In some examples, the woman may fight back.

Best regards, Sergio
 

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008

From heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 14 16:55:32 2008
From: heatherwhite3 at hotmail.com (Heather Whitehead)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:55:32 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Capturing the dance
Message-ID: <BAY137-W25CDAB9532BC58365A0ECEFC8D0@phx.gbl>



Since we live in a time when absolutely everything ends up on youtube and we're hyper-fascinated with the outside visuals of the dance I thought it'd be nice to share this. Atleast this one comes closer to actually capturing Tete's energy. It's really well done. My compliments to the documenter/filmer.

Look at this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOrhRmDHt44

_________________________________________________________________
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008

From febaker at buffalotango.com  Mon Jul 14 17:11:23 2008
From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:11:23 -0400
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?[Tango-L]_Apache_da?=
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?nce_-_La_valse_Chal?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?oup=E9e?=
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W46E2AFB0C7515EC4341F77978D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W46E2AFB0C7515EC4341F77978D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <q2gn749dtn3prlpuntd547j0d84hk2ovre@4ax.com>

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:47:17 +0000, you wrote:

>The dance is named after the nickname of street gang members, Apaches.

>From what I understand, that nickname for the gang members did relate
to the American Apaches.   They were considered to be as bloodthirsty
and ruthless as the Apache Native Americans were portrayed to be at
that time.

Nothing dramatic but there are 3 or 4 Apache related postcards on our
site.   http://www.buffalotango.com/html/cards2.html

Tango on...

Floyd





     Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango
     * * * * * *  www.buffalotango.com  * * * * * *


From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com  Tue Jul 15 01:04:41 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:04:41 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTango-L=5D_Apache_dance_-_La_valse_Chaloup=E9e?=
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W46E2AFB0C7515EC4341F77978D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W46E2AFB0C7515EC4341F77978D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008101c8e638$4bc18570$4100a8c0@labyrinth>

Sergio, this is America. The women generally don?t fight back.

When the opportunity does present it's self for this type of tango with
intention and not pantomime, it is a great conversation.
Just as great as something calm and gentle.

David.



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergio Vandekier
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:47 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] Apache dance - La valse Chaloup?e


Dear friends "La valse chaloup?e" seems to be a tango as described by Mel
(NZ), but in actuality it is not a tango, it is an Apache Dance and in this
particular
case a Vals.

In any case we will start to immitate this style in our tango group, the
girls are very excited with this idea.

Mario, who do you want to practice with?  :))

Apache is a highly dramatic dance associated in popular culture with
Parisian street culture in the beginning of the 20th century. The name of
the dance is pronounced ah-PAHSH (not ah-PATCH-ee, like the Native American
tribe). The dance is named after the nickname of street gang members,
Apaches.

The dance is very brutal to the woman, and sometimes said to reenact a
"discussion" between pimp and prostitute. It includes mock slaps and
punches, the man picking up and throwing the woman to the ground, or lifting
and carrying her while she struggles or feigns unconsciousness. In some
examples, the woman may fight back.

Best regards, Sergio



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date: 7/14/2008
6:49 AM
 



From unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 16:26:31 2008
From: unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com (Marina M)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:26:31 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] I m looking for Noemi Yodice
Message-ID: <be63dada0807131326g1da9028bv10cd74a1465abe9b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, mi name is Marina,  from Buenos Aires. I m looking for Noemi Yodice. I
lost her email address many years ago, can t found her again. Please, help
me to found Noemi again.
Thanks a lot & sorry for my poor english.

Marina

Noemi, mam? del coraz?n, si lees esto, por favor escribime:
unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com


Marina

From manuelapanaite at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 15 07:21:47 2008
From: manuelapanaite at yahoo.com (manuela panaite)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] I m looking for Noemi Yodice
In-Reply-To: <be63dada0807131326g1da9028bv10cd74a1465abe9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <505004.76050.qm@web54107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

hi,
?
have you tried on facebook?
is her real name?
?
besos,
Manuela

--- On Sun, 7/13/08, Marina M <unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marina M <unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] I m looking for Noemi Yodice
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 1:26 PM

Hi, mi name is Marina,  from Buenos Aires. I m looking for Noemi Yodice. I
lost her email address many years ago, can t found her again. Please, help
me to found Noemi again.
Thanks a lot & sorry for my poor english.

Marina

Noemi, mam? del coraz?n, si lees esto, por favor escribime:
unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com


Marina
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Tue Jul 15 09:14:27 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:14:27 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] I m looking for Noemi Yodice
In-Reply-To: <be63dada0807131326g1da9028bv10cd74a1465abe9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63dada0807131326g1da9028bv10cd74a1465abe9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0807150614i74538e45ucdbd79c46ac99ecb@mail.gmail.com>

Marina.

I will forward your message to her.

Neil


On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Marina M <unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi, mi name is Marina,  from Buenos Aires. I m looking for Noemi Yodice. I
> lost her email address many years ago, can t found her again. Please, help
> me to found Noemi again.
> Thanks a lot & sorry for my poor english.
>
> Marina
>
> Noemi, mam? del coraz?n, si lees esto, por favor escribime:
> unapalabra.milgracias at gmail.com
>
>
> Marina
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 15 12:37:01 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:37:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Astrid
Message-ID: <155062.16084.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Astrid is incommunicado at present due to a computer problem but wanted you all to know that she can read the messages and will be back with us ASAP.

Nancy


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 15 12:58:08 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Astrid
Message-ID: <717231.71275.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I can't wait 
       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 15 23:00:50 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Speed limits in Tango?
Message-ID: <37588.52342.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK...here we go again..I am about to post a video link with very little comment.
  I just want to say that I am quite certain that this is THE best video of the dance
  on all  of YouTube.  And unfortunately because the lead is now deceased, we may
  have to wait for another 40 years or so, before we see something else to equal it;..
   I have secret hopes for El Nene now that his health seems to be back ..but this for now
  is it!   the..unbelievable and great Richard Vidort..is this 'musicality' over the top?
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=mekNwq3AW4E

       

From dchester at charter.net  Wed Jul 16 20:02:17 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:02:17 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Speed limits in Tango?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.737.1216225234.22648.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20080716200217.CF5D8.19714.root@fepweb08>

Mario,

I'm hardly ready to declare that as the best example of musicality in all of youtube.
: )

Here are a couple other candidates I'd like to offer up.

First:  Shastro & Maria dancing to a favorite "rhythym" song of mine, "Carnaval de mi Barrio" by Donato

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4CebSBIsTU


Second:  Chicho and Cecelia dancing to a much different song,  "El Andariego" by Pugliese.  But still, their musicality is flawless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu9a7jzfLqc

What do others think?

Regards,

David

-----------------------------------------
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Speed limits in Tango?
> 
>       the..unbelievable and great Richard Vidort..is this 'musicality' over the top?
>   http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=mekNwq3AW4E
> 

From nina at earthnet.net  Wed Jul 16 21:20:26 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:26 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Any tango in South Africa?
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080716191702.01b87370@earthnet.net>

Hello, dancers,

Does anyone know if there is any tango in South Africa, around Cape 
Town?  Any festivals?  My search so far has been unsuccessful.

I will be most grateful for any information.

Many thanks.

Nina


From dchester at charter.net  Thu Jul 17 09:42:55 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 9:42:55 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Any tango in South Africa?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.455.1215977592.3776.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20080717094255.OUGQ9.188988.root@fepweb02>

Nina,

I have no clue if the info is any good, but there are a few links listed on the Tango Wiki web site.

http://wiki.tango.info/mul/Cape_Town

Regards,

David


> _______________________________________________
> Does anyone know if there is any tango in South Africa, around Cape 
Town?  Any festivals?  My search so far has been unsuccessful.


From somersurgit at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 17 15:03:44 2008
From: somersurgit at yahoo.com (somer surgit)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicago: October 3-5, 2008 Alex Krebs Workshops
Message-ID: <396673.27533.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

SAVE THE DATE!
CHICAGO: Alex Krebs Workshops 
Oct 3-5, 2008

Details coming soon!

Hosted by Agape & Somer
www.tangoreaction.com


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 01:54:28 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, "Would you like to lead or follow?"
  I was startled. I answered "Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. I had lapsed into Valley girl 
  speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of Christopher Walken.
  So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris "Wow, this is confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do I get?...unisex?
   What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied again, "No, I just wanted to
  know if you wanted to lead or follow?"  I could have milked the scene, it was rich material
  so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced. 
   It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve to feel like you can 
  pull it off with her...it's not easy.  There should be some respect..I don't get any respect.
   
   

       

From nina at earthnet.net  Sat Jul 19 02:44:47 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:44:47 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
In-Reply-To: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080719002915.01b6cc48@earthnet.net>

At least she asked for your preference... :)  Maybe she was just 
tryig to impress you, sort of like doing a sword fight while wearing 
a long dress.

Amazing that you danced with her after that exchange.  That was very 
nice of you.  If I was a man, I would have walked away without a word 
and never looked at her again.

Christopher Walken is amazing.  He is brilliant portraying sociopaths 
with a conscience, which does not exist in real life.  As far as an 
effective attitude for strange tango incidents goes, how about Javier 
Braden in "No Country for Old Men", without the air can vacuum 
thing?  I kinda like the whole thing without words.

This was the funniest post that I have read in a long time.  Thank you, Mario!

Nina


At 11:54 PM 7/18/2008, Mario wrote:
>Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, "Would you like to 
>lead or follow?"
>   I was startled. I answered "Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. 
> I had lapsed into Valley girl
>   speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of 
> Christopher Walken.
>   So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris "Wow, this is 
> confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do 
> I get?...unisex?
>    What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied 
> again, "No, I just wanted to
>   know if you wanted to lead or follow?"  I could have milked the 
> scene, it was rich material
>   so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice 
> (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced.
>    It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve 
> to feel like you can
>   pull it off with her...it's not easy.  There should be some 
> respect..I don't get any respect.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 10:07:42 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <713518.32675.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com
?I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice (whenever I 
> feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced. 

Is that also because Christopher Walken started his show-biz career as a dancer?


      



From martin at waxman.net  Sat Jul 19 10:19:51 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:19:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  "Would you like to lead or follow?"
In-Reply-To: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719100420.01ee9608@waxman.net>

At 01:54 AM 7/19/2008, Mario wrote:
>Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, "Would you like to 
>lead or follow?"
>   I was startled. I answered "Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. 
> I had lapsed into Valley girl
>   speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of 
> Christopher Walken.
>   So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris "Wow, this is 
> confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do 
> I get?...unisex?
>    What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied 
> again, "No, I just wanted to
>   know if you wanted to lead or follow?"  I could have milked the 
> scene, it was rich material
>   so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice 
> (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced.
>    It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve 
> to feel like you can
>   pull it off with her...it's not easy.  There should be some 
> respect..I don't get any respect.

A perfectly reasonable question by the woman.
What are you afraid of?
A man who never learns to follow never learns the difference between 
good leading and bad leading.

There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader?

You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader.
In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead 
WELL, and can also follow.

There are women in our Tango community who prefer to lead.
I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have accepted.
It's still Argentine Tango.

Marty 





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
Database version: 5.10280e
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 10:28:25 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <950281.95393.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks Martin, but I thought you said that you were going to delete my posts
  without reading them...??
  For your information; I also do NOT dance with men with hairy sweaty forearms 
  during classes. Why not? Because it turns me off and leaves me with a skeevy 
  feeling...and close embrace? 
   Forgeddabouditt
   
   

       

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 10:42:09 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <441565.22579.qm@web31906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Since about a year ago I started venturing into the "follow role" and, as I got better at it, I discovered that it is another world, it is almost like a different dance altogether, equally fabulously enjoyable. Every man should experience a wonderful dance of?tango as a?"follower" -- highly recommended.
?
Nowadays I regularly practice with a woman who also likes switching roles and we often switch between the "roles" during a single dance -- changing the embrace on the fly and all without any interruption. It is a great experience.
?
...dubravko

P.S. I use quotes to signify the use of quoted terms only for?the lack of a better term and not meant literally.?===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

From nina at earthnet.net  Sat Jul 19 10:55:44 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:55:44 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719100420.01ee9608@waxman.net>
References: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080719100420.01ee9608@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080719085256.01baebc0@earthnet.net>

Marty,

If a woman leads and a man follows, it may be a tango of some sort, 
but it is NOT Argentine.

Nina




>There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader?
>
>You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader.
>In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead
>WELL, and can also follow.
>
>There are women in our Tango community who prefer to lead.
>I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have accepted.
>It's still Argentine Tango.
>
>Marty
>
>
>
>
>
>E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
>Database version: 5.10280e
>http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From leonardok at mac.com  Sat Jul 19 12:41:35 2008
From: leonardok at mac.com (Leonardo Kunkello)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:41:35 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <E73FB472-3E64-40B1-BEA2-16DE027E6879@mac.com>

In my experience. There seems to be some advantage that adds to a  
guys technique to be able to follow.

On the other hand I have not seen an advantage for a lady to try to  
learn to lead. I have only danced with a few ladies who lead who were  
able to effectively switch gears between being a leader and a  
follower. They all happened to be advanced dancers.

A pleasant tango must have good communication. To be a good follower  
a lady must be "listening" for the lead. Women are multitaskers,  
maybe this causes leading women to seem to be split between  
"listening" to the lead and thinking or feeling what they would be  
leading. And as such the connection is just not there as with women  
who only follow.

If I see a woman leading at a milonga, she automatically goes to the  
bottom of my list for potential partners. There are a lot of ladies  
to dance with and those that also lead have proven for the most part  
not be the most enjoyable and connected of partners. This might be  
unfair to some but I play the odds and go were I feel the best  
connections are going to be.

Oh yea, if a lady asked me, lead or follow? My comment would be, you  
have got to be kidding!!

Be blessed,
Leonardo K



On Jul 19, 2008, at 9:55 AM, Nina Pesochinsky wrote:


> Marty,
>
> If a woman leads and a man follows, it may be a tango of some sort,
> but it is NOT Argentine.
>
> Nina
>
>
>
>
>
>> There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the  
>> leader?
>>
>> You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader.
>> In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead
>> WELL, and can also follow.
>>
>> There are women in our Tango community who prefer to lead.
>> I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have  
>> accepted.
>> It's still Argentine Tango.
>>
>> Marty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
>> Database version: 5.10280e
>> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>


From tango.society at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 13:29:05 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:29:05 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Roles in Tango
Message-ID: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.com>

In tango, the man leads and the woman follows. The man embraces the
woman and in that embrace and his smooth but rhythmic movements around
the floor he provides a peaceful, protective, and enjoyable engagement
in dance. The woman may follow, but she is not passive. She gives her
energy, her passion, her emotion to the man in the dance. She has the
opportunity for self expression in decorating her dance with
adornments, as long as this does not interfere with the dance the man
is creating for her. Tango is a dance between a leading man and a
following woman, and the interplay of physical and emotional
connection that transpires during the dance.

At least that is tango argentino, as danced socially in the milongas
of Buenos Aires. It reflects the gender roles in Argentine society,
particularly historically, but to a large degree today as well. There
are a few gender alternative milongas in Buenos Aires, such as La
Marshall, which are usually advertised as gay milongas, whereas in
fact they are really better described as 'gay friendly' or 'gender
alternative' because not all people who attend are homosexual and
indeed it is in these milongas where gender roles are flexible.
However, there are at any time 2 or 3 of these milongas per week, and
their attendance is low compared to the over 100 milongas per week
where one will not see gender alternative dancing.

Promoting traditional gender roles as part of the culture of tango
outside Argentine often seem heretical to our societal values of
gender equality. However, to change gender roles is to change tango so
that it is no longer Argentine. If women lead and men follow, or women
dance with women and men with men, this is not Argentine tango. It is
another kind of tango. People often mention that men danced with men
to practice tango in Buenos Aires, but this existed in the past (I
believe it was gone by the 40s) because women had limited freedom to
travel unchaperoned. Today it is rare in Buenos Aires, and certainly
not the norm.

When a man and woman engage in tango, they may step outside of gender
roles they otherwise practice. Women have achieved considerable power
in the workplace and men have become more involving in work
traditionally performed by women, such as child care, household
management, nursing, etc. These advances in society are enlightened
perspectives on gender roles whose time has long been overdue.
However, when entering into tango, a man and woman step outside their
daily roles and engage in a dance where the man is masculine and the
woman is feminine, as traditionally defined. There is nothing wrong
with this. It is stepping into the tango world, the tango culture. It
does not define who you are outside the milonga.

In free societies people do not have to maintain the gender roles of
tango practiced in Argentina. However, in doing so they are ignoring
an essential part of tango argentino. They are not dancing tango
argentino; they are dancing another dance.

I ask people to think about calling their dance Argentine tango if
they are not practicing it as it is danced in Buenos Aires. This is
misleading.

Ron

From martin at waxman.net  Sat Jul 19 14:38:03 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:38:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  Gender Roles in Tango
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>

At 01:29 PM 7/19/2008, Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
>In tango, the man leads and the woman follows. ....
>At least that is tango argentino, as danced socially in the milongas
>of Buenos Aires. It reflects the gender roles in Argentine society,.....

I agree for many places in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

I'm not an Argentine.  I do not live in Buenos Aires.

I live in New York City and believe in gender equality.

I'll dance Argentine Tango my way -- as either a leader or a follower 
regardless of biological gender -- with flexible gander roles.

The way some Argentines do as described by you:
 >...La Marshall, which are usually advertised as gay milongas, whereas in
 >fact they are really better described as 'gay friendly' or 'gender
 >alternative' because not all people who attend are homosexual and
 >indeed it is in these milongas where gender roles are flexible.

You can dance it your way, but I believe your above statement 
indicates you are wrong to insist your way is the only correct way -- 
that the man leads and the woman follows.
So, if I want to, I'll dance Argentine Tango the way Argentines do at 
La Marshall -- gender roles flexible.

Safe ganchos.
Step away from the mushrooms!

Marty







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Database version: 5.10290e
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 14:39:13 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] I could'a done Robert Di Nero  "Ya wanna follow?"
Message-ID: <311411.84971.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hey, I could'a done my Robert DiNero
  but hey, I would only use that on a guy (or a politicaly correct woman like Nikki)
  http://mx.youtube.com/user/nacotete

       

From bafonso at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 15:26:01 2008
From: bafonso at gmail.com (Bruno Afonso)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:26:01 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Roles in Tango
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>
References: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <4f5d14730807191226i69adf01gd870c22f394db0b2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/08, Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net> wrote:

>  I'll dance Argentine Tango my way -- as either a leader or a follower
>  regardless of biological gender -- with flexible gander roles.

I'm sorry but that is similar to saying that playing soccer (football
for us europeans) your way involves using hands. The moment you
*change* something **your way**, then it may fall outside of what is
considered either standard or the most established view of something.
It is then, something different.

I also follow (and like it) but I would not dare to say that I am
dancing the traditional AT in a milonga if I'm following. Practicing
with a friend maybe...

It is very disrespectful to pick a concept, change it and then want to
re-define the concept that you started off from. On the other hand, it
is very respectful to know the background/history of something your
are practicing and starting off from that to make your own journey
into it or spin off. Understanding something's history or background
is important to realize the boundaries of an idea or concept.

b

-- 
Bruno Afonso
http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Sat Jul 19 15:43:38 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:43:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] belated apology to the list
Message-ID: <488243EA.4030904@comcast.net>

Some time ago I transgressed.  I received an email from the moderator 
requiring me to apologize to the list, and not transgress again.  I said 
I would not post on the list again until I did so.

I am truly sorry for the discomfort that was caused to listmembers by my 
posting, and for any feelings which I hurt, and any residual outrage 
that was caused.  I won't be doing it again.  I value the spirit of 
camraderie that is found on this list.  Viva tango!
-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz/blog



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 19 17:25:55 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:25:55 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5190DDE3CE550A49903A9F97880@phx.gbl>




We have discussed this subject many times in the past.   

My opinion is that there are two well defined roles in tango dancing: masculine and feminine.

As we teach tango in Argentina we emphasize the differences of the two roles, as an example the embellishments are executed in a different way:

one masculine, and feminine the other.

I have defined many times before what masculine and feminine in tango means and the fact that this is a reflection of society at large.

***This does not mean that a man has to be, only a leader, or a woman can only be a follower.***

 You , like Martin and everyone else can dance as you please.

A man can be a follower and a woman a leader. Sometimes the original roles are preserved.

This is obvious in places like La Marshall and other Queer Milongas were, for instance two men may be dancing with each other, but it is obvious that one is taking the masculine role and the other the feminine one.

In other instances two men are dancing together (according to tradition) but they both have masculine roles: the result can be a beautiful tango as well, but it 
will be a different kind of tango, with different feeling all together. 

See the Macana Brothers for instance  : http://vidslib.com/index.php?view=3625948

( if the link does not work look in youtube "Hermanos Macana tango".

In traditional tango dancing the man is the leader and the woman is the follower. 

There is a tendency in Argentina for men not to dance with women that lead.

This is not due to intolerance but due to the fact that the tango with such a woman is "different". 

 Many times groups come from a Queer milonga to a regular milonga,   men wearing long dresses with side openings from where hairy legs appear.  Nobody seems to mind their presence, they are treated with utmost respect.

Summary: there are many ways in which to dance tango...but the traditional tango at a regular milonga has two well defined roles.

Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Sat Jul 19 17:31:52 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:31:52 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Roles in Tango
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>
References: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <48825D48.5020800@comcast.net>

Rather than going back through that loop of passionate discussion on the 
proper use of the words "Argentine Tango"....

If we're talking about a fellow following or a lady leader (with a 
partner of whatever gender) why not call that dance Ognat Enitnegra? 
Then we'll all know what we're talking about and we won't need to battle 
over the semantics of which words can and cannot be used to describe a 
particular partner arrangement.

Some listmembers can then declare passionately against the dancing of 
ognat enitnegra as blaspheming something dear to their heart, and/or say 
they would never dance ognat enitnegra no matter what and would 
discriminate against known ognat enitnegra dancers in any future 
Argentine Tango? dancing opportunities.  Others can enthusiastically 
embrace ognat enitnegra and say that it is a groovy thing and they love 
to dance it and everyone who doesn't dance it won't become a good dancer 
of Argentine Tango? or anything else, and/or that non-dancers of ognat 
enitnegra have psychological or cultural hangups.  Still others can 
point out that this list is technically not for ognat enitnegra and that 
ognat enitnegra is off-topic and that ognat enitnegra dancers should get 
their own list.  But whether the discussion goes positive or negative, 
we'll all know exactly what we're discussing, and nobody's relationship 
to the phrase "Argentine Tango?" will be offended.

Hopefully the phrase 'ognat enitnegra' does not belong to anyone's 
cultural patrimony and it would therefore offend no one.  It's certainly 
not as mellifluous!  And of course in Spanish it would properly be 
'ognat onitnegra'.  I particularly like the '-negra' bit, it's a tip of 
the hat to the dramatic black garb of which we are all so 
enamorado/a/os/as.

A modest proposal.

CS

Martin Waxman wrote:
> At 01:29 PM 7/19/2008, Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
>> In tango, the man leads and the woman follows. ....
>> At least that is tango argentino, as danced socially in the milongas
>> of Buenos Aires. It reflects the gender roles in Argentine society,.....
> 
> I agree for many places in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
> 
> I'm not an Argentine.  I do not live in Buenos Aires.
> 
> I live in New York City and believe in gender equality.
> 
> I'll dance Argentine Tango my way -- as either a leader or a follower 
> regardless of biological gender -- with flexible gander roles.
> 
> The way some Argentines do as described by you:
>  >...La Marshall, which are usually advertised as gay milongas, whereas in
>  >fact they are really better described as 'gay friendly' or 'gender
>  >alternative' because not all people who attend are homosexual and
>  >indeed it is in these milongas where gender roles are flexible.
> 
> You can dance it your way, but I believe your above statement 
> indicates you are wrong to insist your way is the only correct way -- 
> that the man leads and the woman follows.
> So, if I want to, I'll dance Argentine Tango the way Argentines do at 
> La Marshall -- gender roles flexible.
> 
> Safe ganchos.
> Step away from the mushrooms!
> 
> Marty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 19 18:07:56 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:07:56 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana
Message-ID: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>



http://vidslib.com/index.php?view=3625948

The link works.

It is interesting that in that video the brothers start dancing to a trditional tango but about 3:00 minutes they continue dancing to

the Peronist March (a march in honor of President Juan Peron, Evita's husband).

Then when they are asked to do an "encore" one can hear people singing the song.


Their true name is Enrique and Guillermo De Fazio.

Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 18:51:49 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:51:49 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807191551k44cdf129gd910dd8353aeca74@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://vidslib.com/index.php?view=3625948
>
> The link works.
>
> It is interesting that in that video the brothers start dancing to a trditional tango but about 3:00 minutes they continue dancing to
>
> the Peronist March (a march in honor of President Juan Peron, Evita's husband).
>
> Then when they are asked to do an "encore" one can hear people singing the song.
>
> Their true name is Enrique and Guillermo De Fazio.

     Wow, a small party with Color Tango and various dancers--awesome!
 I wonder how one got invited to that little black tie affair in
Stowe?  I followed the link given in the text, and it said there were
only shows in Burlington (VT), Boston, and Miami.   The Burlington
engagement also had an option for a party/milonga after the show, but
that was also in Burlington at the same venue as the concert.  Stowe
is 37 miles away.

Huck

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 19 21:21:42 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:21:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] The Argentine Tango society
Message-ID: <BAY105-W4276BD12B5DD0E50285180978B0@phx.gbl>


Huck, here you have the press release of that event.

http://express-press-release.net/41/I%20TANGO%20-%20Argentine%20Tango%20Performance.php


The local Argentine Tango Society organized the event in Vermont.    

The event included the show (I Tango) and then a private party as reported.  Tickets for the party $25 dollars were sold at the theater.

Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 20 00:46:59 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <739665.32285.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I was planning to reply to Martin but Ron and Sergio have said it all much 
better than I could. And thanks to Nina for giving a lady's view. To me, Tango 
is a dance between a man and a woman. Part of the man's role is to lead and 
part of the woman's role is to follow. But there's more to the man's role than 
just leading and there's more to the lady's role than just following. 
And, in my opinion, for once Mario is right. To dance tango well I believe a man 
must truly feel like a man. But when Martin says he believes in equality of the 
genders, I again agree. But that doesn't mean men and women are the same 
or can be the same.
The above is talking about social dancing in the milonga. Practicing in the role 
of the woman, either with a male or female partner can be very useful. But that's 
just practice. Often very boring but unfortunately, for some of us,?very necessary.
Jack
----- Original Message ----
> From: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>
> 
> There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader?
> 
> I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have accepted.
> It's still Argentine Tango.



      



From melvillefox at aol.com  Sun Jul 20 03:06:59 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:06:59 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W5190DDE3CE550A49903A9F97880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W5190DDE3CE550A49903A9F97880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CAB84E567E2DFF-1128-1703@WEBMAIL-DG04.sim.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
To: Tango-L List <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 4:25 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango

> In other instances two men are dancing together (according to 
tradition) but
they both have masculine roles: the result can be a beautiful tango as 
well, but
it will be a different kind of tango, with different feeling all 
together.

> See the Macana Brothers for instance  : 
http://vidslib.com/index.php?view=3625948

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------

This is so hilarious because both leader and follower are so masculine 
in their dance. The subtlety of their humor is apparent when at about 
2:30 the 'leader' is led by the follower to a planeo.

I searched on YouTube and found a good example of two men dancing where 
the follower, always the same man, is definitely more feminine than the 
leader, even if perhaps not as feminine as most women:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmjQfp1glo

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------

>Many times groups come from a Queer milonga to a regular milonga,   
men wearing
long dresses with side openings from where hairy legs appear.  Nobody 
seems to
mind their presence, they are treated with utmost respect.

Many times?? Over the last 5+ years my work has brought me to Buenos 
Aires 3 or 4 times a year and I have been to well over 100 milongas, 
perhaps more than 150, in all parts of the city and I have never seen 
men dressed in drag at a regular milonga. Perhaps you could tell us 
Sergio where you have seen this.

Mel


From martin at waxman.net  Sun Jul 20 07:34:14 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:34:14 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  Hermanos Macana
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080720073101.01f3e938@waxman.net>

For those on the list who firmly believe that gender roles in 
Argentine Tango are specific.

If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they dancing?
If it is not Argentine Tango, why aren't the posts labeled OFF TOPIC?

Marty





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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 20 08:40:11 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Martha Graham meets Gustavo Naveira
Message-ID: <75718.95890.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Check out sequence no. 1 and no. 2
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=sylIGL-PcBI&feature=related
  There are Martha Graham workshops in Manhattan this coming week
  why not just go there and then just incorporate anything you learn into your tango?
  Are they actually teaching this stuff as social dancing?  I'm confused
   
  ..Oh yes, I saw my first tango related injury take place before my eyes last week.
  ..it wasn't pretty..two women and one with stilleto 4 inch heels stuck it into the ankle
  of the other..they happened to both be doing some swinging foot move behind at the same time.  .. it hurt.

       

From nina at earthnet.net  Sun Jul 20 08:42:02 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:42:02 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080720073101.01f3e938@waxman.net>
References: <BAY105-W54C98654676EF2AED779E997880@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080720073101.01f3e938@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080720063926.01b41e00@earthnet.net>

Because they are not dancing the woman's part with a woman 
leading.  Men dancing together is a diffrent thing than a man 
following a woman.  Men dancing with each other has been a part of 
the development of AT, but women leading men has not.


At 05:34 AM 7/20/2008, Martin Waxman wrote:
>For those on the list who firmly believe that gender roles in
>Argentine Tango are specific.
>
>If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they dancing?
>If it is not Argentine Tango, why aren't the posts labeled OFF TOPIC?
>
>Marty
>
>
>
>
>
>E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
>Database version: 5.10290e
>http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From nina at earthnet.net  Sun Jul 20 08:51:36 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:51:36 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Martha Graham meets Gustavo Naveira
In-Reply-To: <75718.95890.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <75718.95890.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080720064542.01b3b398@earthnet.net>

One good reason not to incorporate Graham into tango is that it would 
take most tango dancers about 5 years of daily work to actually 
master Graham.   Since most can't even master tango in 5 years :), it 
is not likely that there could be a successdul fusion.  Instead, it 
might be easier to teach tango to the Graham dancers.

Graham is an incredible dance form and training requires brutal work 
and a very strong spirit.  It is also a great American legacy of 
dance.  Just like tango, there will be many people that would like to 
bastardise it by making it "accessible to the masses".



At 06:40 AM 7/20/2008, Mario wrote:
>Check out sequence no. 1 and no. 2
>   http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=sylIGL-PcBI&feature=related
>   There are Martha Graham workshops in Manhattan this coming week
>   why not just go there and then just incorporate anything you 
> learn into your tango?
>   Are they actually teaching this stuff as social dancing?  I'm confused
>
>   ..Oh yes, I saw my first tango related injury take place before 
> my eyes last week.
>   ..it wasn't pretty..two women and one with stilleto 4 inch heels 
> stuck it into the ankle
>   of the other..they happened to both be doing some swinging foot 
> move behind at the same time.  .. it hurt.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sat Jul 19 11:12:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080719100420.01ee9608@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <memo.20080719161218.1468B@HIDEchrisjj.com>

>> "Would you like to lead or follow?"
> A perfectly reasonable question by the woman.

It is a perfectly reasonable question by a /man/.

> A man who never learns to follow never learns the difference between 
> good leading and bad leading.
> 
> There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader?
> 
> You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader.
> In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead 
> WELL, and can also follow.

That seems to miss the point. Man Following doesn't equal Man Following 
Woman.

Man and woman alike learn from the good lead of a man. But to attribute 
this to the following, and hence to assume this works when the leader is 
instead a woman pretending to be a man, is to misunderstand.

--
Chris

From MACFroggy at aol.com  Sun Jul 20 11:36:21 2008
From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:36:21 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana
Message-ID: <be4.37769d02.35b4b575@aol.com>


> If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they 
> dancing?"
> 
They are dancing Stage Tango, or Tango Para Exportar--very theatrical, 
choreographed, and entertaining.

cherie
http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ 





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From tango.society at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 12:06:27 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:06:27 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Roles in Tango
In-Reply-To: <48825D48.5020800@comcast.net>
References: <cff24c340807191029l577aa4fdy6e819deb0fbb05bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080719141022.01f3c9a0@waxman.net>
	<48825D48.5020800@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <cff24c340807200906w4eeb5e32o87ca23776e76bb91@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net> wrote:
> For those on the list who firmly believe that gender roles in
> Argentine Tango are specific.
>
> If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they dancing?

The Brothers Macana are performing, not dancing at a milonga. What
makes their performance humorous is that they are violating the codes
of the milonga.

In my single days, before I learned tango, I dated a woman who had
been a ballerina in her youth. She explained to me that ballet has
defined roles for men and women. At a particularly innovative modern
dance performance we attended, she said that much of the choreography
was based on ballet, but it went beyond in adding new elements. What
was particularly interesting about this performance (sorry, I can't
remember the dance company) was that the gender roles were reversed at
times. Art can be creative that in breaking rules it exposes the
rules. This is what the Brothers Macana are doing.


On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 2:06 AM,  <melvillefox at aol.com> wrote:
>
> I searched on YouTube and found a good example of two men dancing where
> the follower, always the same man, is definitely more feminine than the
> leader, even if perhaps not as feminine as most women:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmjQfp1glo
>

This video is another example of a good performance that deviates from
tango, not only in gender roles, but also incorporating elements of
tango, nuevo, and modern dance. It is creative and very well done in
my opinion, but it is not tango, not even performance tango.


On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net> wrote:
> Men dancing together is a diffrent thing than a man
> following a woman.  Men dancing with each other has been a part of
> the development of AT, but women leading men has not.
>

Men PRACTICING with men has been part of the PAST history of tango in
Buenos Aires. It is not common today.

This is not to say that both men and women cannot benefit from
learning what is involved in leading and following by exchanging
gender roles (women lead men, men lead men, women lead women) in a
practica or even a class if it is done by consent. In fact, every
tango instructor should learn the opposite gender role. But this a
teaching environment, not the social environment of the milonga.

The gender codes of tango apply to the milonga.

Ron

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 20 22:12:57 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango
Message-ID: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mel,
A fabulous dance by a couple obviously trained in ballet.
But I'd be interested to hear just why you think they are dancing 'tango'.
Seriously,
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: "melvillefox at aol.com" <melvillefox at aol.com>
> 
> I searched on YouTube and found a good example of two men dancing where 
> the follower, always the same man, is definitely more feminine than the 
> leader, even if perhaps not as feminine as most women:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmjQfp1glo
> 



      


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 20 23:26:24 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:26:24 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How do you know they are dancing tango?
Message-ID: <BAY105-W51A8E7A1C1BA75468670AB978A0@phx.gbl>




How do you know that Miguel and Augusto are dancing tango?     Jack asks Melvillefox in reference to:

http://vidslib.com/index.php?view=3625948


They are dancing stage tango, no doubt about it.  They are well known as tango dancers   Miguel Moyano and Augusto Balizano.

See them dancing "Ojos Negros" , another tango.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_1SDH-baUA&feature=related

The music is "Escualo" (shark) by Astor Piazzola  (tango music).    

The choreographic moves are all typical of stage tango:

Several Chains  (cadenas).

Caminadas, sacadas, corridas, cuchillas (kicks in between the legs), hooks, lifts, free turns, soltadas, tango side by side,
jumps, piernazos, poses, sentadas, amagues, boleos, etc, etc,.

Summary:  Tango music, Tango choreography, tango dancers = Tango.


Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From tango at bostonphotographs.com  Mon Jul 21 08:30:58 2008
From: tango at bostonphotographs.com (Sorin Varzaru)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:30:58 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
In-Reply-To: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <952777.84453.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bc7e48270807210530h126b58b1v8c6903e62d24131a@mail.gmail.com>

>"Wow, this is confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...

Hmm, maybe that's the problem. It could be just me, but in order to feel
like a man, I just have to be awake/conscious. While not all women who lead
are good dancers, nearly ALL great women dancers I ever danced with know how
to lead.

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 1:54 AM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, "Would you like to lead or
> follow?"
>  I was startled. I answered "Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. I had
> lapsed into Valley girl
>  speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of Christopher
> Walken.
>  So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris "Wow, this is
> confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do I
> get?...unisex?
>   What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied again, "No,
> I just wanted to
>  know if you wanted to lead or follow?"  I could have milked the scene, it
> was rich material
>  so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice
> (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced.
>   It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve to feel
> like you can
>  pull it off with her...it's not easy.  There should be some respect..I
> don't get any respect.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>


-- 

Sorin
my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com
blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin at bostonphotographs.com

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 21 09:53:16 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] "Would you like to lead or follow?"
Message-ID: <258764.11065.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks Sorin, I use that reason to exist (to feel like a man) because once a
  Tango-L member dismissed me in a private email by saying "you're just like them,
  you dance tango in order to 'feel like a man' " ..well, I've decided to embrace that
  as my own, too..
   Hey, I wake up and know that I'm a man, too!..Marvelous, isn't it? 
   No, you didn't 'put me in my place'
  .that can't happen to me on Tango L.

       

From melvillefox at aol.com  Mon Jul 21 10:35:19 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:35:19 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango
In-Reply-To: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 9:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender roles in tango

Mel,
A fabulous dance by a couple obviously trained in ballet.
But I'd be interested to hear just why you think they are dancing 
'tango'.
Seriously,
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: "melvillefox at aol.com" <melvillefox at aol.com>
>
> I searched on YouTube and found a good example of two men dancing 
where
> the follower, always the same man, is definitely more feminine than 
the
> leader, even if perhaps not as feminine as most women:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmjQfp1glo
>

Notice that I did not use the word 'tango' in my description of the 
dance. This was intentional. Unlike Segio (who won't tell us where men 
go to traditional milongas in Buenos Aires dressed in drag), I don't 
think the performance was tango. I don't see many elements of tango in 
it, no cruzadas, very few ochos, I think only one or two giros, 
although there are some nuevo type high sacadas and ganchos (not social 
tango) and some modern dance moves in it. At most the dance was 10% 
tango moves.

Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does 
not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for 
dancing.

If we acxcept this as tango, then we open the floodgates for calling 
anything tango. Of course, I think that dam is already broken.

Mel





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Tango-L at mit.edu
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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 21 10:39:00 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:39:00 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] How do yoou know it is tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W26218C13C6C26B6113422A978A0@phx.gbl>



Somebody sent a private E-mail with the following message: (re. to my prior note) "How do you know they are dancing tango".
 
"I wonder how good any of them can lead in a social setting anyone
> else. I don't find their dancing that elegant anyway... it's not that
> tango actually. :)"
 
My answer:

 
           You are entitled to have your own taste and opinion. You do not like the way they dance, that is fine, your own particular taste.
 
I do not have any problem with that. I am sure that there are other people that share your impressions and feelings the same as there are many that really like the way they dance as well.
 
I agree with you : You can learn a choreography and perform on stage without knowing how to lead.  I performed on stage in Argentina in a tango show with only one week of training,   when I started to dance tango regularly (with Victor and Monica Ayos).  It was great!  
 
I doubt that this is the case with Miguel and Augusto.  
 
I think that tango has many styles, stage tango is one of them.  This last form of dancing tango is as much tango as social tango. 
 
They are different, they have different purposes; that is all.  
 
Out of the multiple tango styles that exist people may select one that they like to cultivate, or what is more frequent, by fate, they were exposed to only one style, and look at any other form of the dance as something estrange, "non-tango", an aberration. 
 
Tango is a very rich dance, it has many styles: you may adopt one or more of those styles, go to dance were those styles are cultivated and enjoy yourself.   
 
Other people may like to do Nuevo or stage or cultivate different styles to use in different circumstances, and this is fine as well.
 
You may decide that you wish to cultivate the form people dance downtown Buenos Aires, grest!  Others may want to do
Nuevo, Stage, Villa Urquiza, or whatever style they like. I do not see any problem with that. Do you?
 
You should not assume that because someone dances Stage tango he does not know how to lead or how to dance socially.
 
Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From politas at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 11:57:32 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:57:32 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>

melvillefox at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does 
> not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for 
> dancing.

I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing 
lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect. Especially in cases like 
this. All we need is one person to report a Piazzolla track played for 
social dancing in Buenos Aires just the once, and the statement is made 
absurd.

Given the number of Piazzolla pieces being re-used by other tango bands, 
it seems rather unlikely to me that Piazzolla is "never danced to 
socially in Buenos Aires".

Unless perhaps, Mel thinks that Nuevo Tango (You know, that type of 
music that Piazzolla created) isn't "social dancing", which would be 
taking the common dismissive attitude to Nuevo shown around here to 
extremes.

When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for 
dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context.

-- 
Myk Dowling

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 13:01:20 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:01:20 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Argentine Tango society
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W4276BD12B5DD0E50285180978B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W4276BD12B5DD0E50285180978B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807211001g5155e0bdq7c5c66a26f9302d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Huck, here you have the press release of that event.
>
> http://express-press-release.net/41/I%20TANGO%20-%20Argentine%20Tango%20Performance.php
>
>
> The local Argentine Tango Society organized the event in Vermont.
>
> The event included the show (I Tango) and then a private party as reported.  Tickets for the party $25 dollars were sold at the theater.

     Once again, the show in the video you originally gave was in
Stowe, VT, not Burlington.  The party advertised on the I-Tango
website and in this press release you now give above was at the same
venue as the concert, immediately after the show, which occurred on 12
Oct.  The show in the original video was not only in Stowe (35 miles
from Burlington), but was also on a different date, to wit, 13 Oct.

     Since everyone appears to be in black tie, you can bet it cost a
lot more than $25.  I'm guessing it was a private show given for arts
benefactors, who probably underwrote many of the expenses of the tour.

Huck

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Mon Jul 21 16:17:34 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:17:34 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4884EEDE.5090909@tangobar-productions.com>

Actually, Al and I heard Piazzolla make this statement at a lecture he 
gave in San Francisco on his second and last visit to this city. As I 
recall his exact words were "My music is not for dancing". I can't give 
the precise date (or year) without research but another friend, John 
Rolleri, was also in the audience. At that time many dancers were 
already using his music (played by other orchestras) for dancing in 
performance. However I still haven't heard Piazzolla played at 
traditional milongas.

This is fact, not necessarily my opinion :-)
Barbara, in SF temporarily

>
>When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for 
>dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context.
>
>  
>


From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Mon Jul 21 16:53:24 2008
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:53:24 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] The Brothers Macana
In-Reply-To: <mailman.447.1216571844.12505.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.447.1216571844.12505.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4884F744.1090704@lavidacondeby.com>

Macana is lunfardo for those of you who do not speak it means: lie, 
mistake, error.  Sooooo for those of you trying to bolster your argument 
of gender bender dancing using the Brothers Macana, now you know where 
the name Macana comes from. Un nombre re-creativo as we would say here.




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From larrynla at juno.com  Mon Jul 21 18:01:44 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:01:44 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] How do yoou know it is tango
Message-ID: <20080721.150144.15376.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Thanks, Sergio, for a very wise and clear answer to the question.  I agree with you that tango comes in many forms, and that doing one style does not mean you are somehow desecrating tango.

Nor does it mean you cannot do other tango styles.  In particular, I have noticed that tango stage professionals usually do very little show moves when they dance socially.  Sometime they almost go to the other extreme, doing little more than walking but VERY smoothly and elegantly, in clear connection with the music, and each other.

Which reminds of what famous milonguero Pupi Costello is supposed to have said - "Figures are easy; walking is hard."

Larry de Los Angeles


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From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 20:29:31 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:29:31 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0807211729h3fe36925pa8ec86cef3379b34@mail.gmail.com>

Piazzolla was, in fact, hostile to the idea of his music being used for
dancing. (We are referring to the more contemporary side of Piazzolla, not
the early arrangements he did for Troilo).

I have never heard his music played by a DJ in a Bs As milonga. Sometimes
smaller orchestras play his music and it is more often than not a
disappointing experience for all.

Neil

From larrynla at juno.com  Mon Jul 21 20:51:56 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:51:56 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The real, true, AUTHENTIC Argentine tango
Message-ID: <20080721.175156.26670.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com>

Every few weeks, it seems, a brawl takes place in this and other like 
forums over what is REAL Argentine tango.

You will never see such over what real British tango is, except maybe 
its name.  The Imperial Society of Teachers of Dance about a century 
ago renamed it International tango to make it more popular.  More 
recently the ISTD and its less offensively named cohorts have also 
named it Standard and (most recently) DanceSport tango.  British tango 
is what you see on "Dancing with the Stars" (a spin-off of the Brit 
series "Strictly Come Dancing").  And British tango is what you will see 
in the Olympics when the ISTD and its fellows get ballroom dancing made 
an official Olympic sport.

There is no argument about what is TRUE BritTango because there is a 
book that defines it in so much detail that you could almost program 
robots to do it.  This situation was the background to the first 
feature film directed by Baz Luhrman (of "Moulin Rouge" fame).  It was 
titled "Strictly Ballroom" and was especially hilarious to anyone who 
knows the International Ballroom world because it had so little 
exaggeration.

And every few weeks we see people in this and other like forums who 
seem as if they would be happy to imitate the British model - if only 
their idea of Argentine tango were declared the only real, true, 
AUTHENTIC Argentine tango.  There are even some Argentine tango 
teachers who sell collections of tapes and DVDs separated into bronze, 
silver, and gold levels just as the International world does each of 
their dances.

The tango police most recently have declared that it is only REAL tango 
if a woman and a man dance it - but only if the man is the leader and 
the woman the follower.  At other times they declare that nuevo tango 
(whatever the heck that is) is not REAL tango.  Some people say only if 
you dance body-to-body are you doing TRUE Argentine tango.  Others 
deride this as vulgar "belly-bumping" and inelegant.  A milonguero, 
they say, is some street trash who drives a taxi or works as a janitor 
or short-order cook - if they even have a job.  This view of the 
milonguero, incidentally, is not an unusual attitude of Argentines of 
older generations.

And, of course, that favorite of clueless journalists looking for a 
sound bite - tango is SEXY!  A "vertical expression of a horizontal 
desire" sounds so, so, ARGENTINE!  And they haul out the myth that 
tango was invented in brothels.

So what is the real nature of the Argentine tango?  Maybe its 
flexibility, the difficulty of  defining it in some hard-and-fast way, 
is part of the answer.  It is like a good outfit which is high-quality 
but also easily tailored to our own body and needs and abilities - and 
each of us is the tailor.

Which would explain why there are so many angry arguments over tango's 
true nature.  Because each of us creates a version that satisfies our 
deepest needs, a version that is a reflection of our true selves.  Thus 
anyone else who wants us to change our tango to match their version 
seems to be attacking us on our deepest levels rather than "correcting" 
superficial matters.

So maybe those of us who stand back and watch these battles over what 
is real tango with amusement should be grateful for them instead.  
Because when they quit tango will have died and been replaced with 
an embalmed corpse.

Larry de Los Angeles


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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 00:21:03 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How do yoou know it is tango
Message-ID: <722613.26598.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Pupi Castello was correct and I think everyone who learns 
tango discovers this for himself. 
Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need 
to worry about that pesky walk :-)
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> Which reminds of what famous milonguero Pupi Costello is supposed to have said - 
> "Figures are easy; walking is hard."
> 



      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 00:40:08 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Brothers Macana
Message-ID: <800490.49877.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Thank you Deby; that is indeed very interesting. I always had the 
impression that the brothers?were dancing a caricature of tango?
and, from their name, it now seems that that is their intention. 
It's unfortunate that others, such as Miguel y Augusto, appear 
to be so deadly serious while dancing their brilliant caricatures.
But maybe the joke's on us?:-)
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com>
> Macana is lunfardo for those of you who do not speak it means: lie, 
> mistake, error.? 


      



From al at sgi.com  Tue Jul 22 01:54:45 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:54:45 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48857625.6020902@sgi.com>

Myk Dowling wrote:
> melvillefox at aol.com wrote:
>> Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does 
>> not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for 
>> dancing.
> 
> I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing 
> lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect. 

Especially when generalised to the absurd. There is quite some variability
in the music of Piazolla - 1955 "Bando" and "Preparense" are nothing like
the jazzy or classical music structure pieces that he later composed,
some of which are undeniably undanceable; others are obviously *written*
to be listened to although some people do seem to like to dance
to them ("Oblivion" is an obvious example that seems to be firmly
entrenched in the slow and more daring sets of the wee hours here).

And let's not forget that Piazzolla also composed some pieces when
he was working for Anibal Troilo -- should these also be deemed
"not tango" by contamination?

At what exact date did the tango Gods themselves cast a curse upon
the fruits of Piazolla's imagination? Is the soundtrack of
"B?lidos de acero" still tango?

Should Troilo also be damned by association?

It's obvious that Piazzolla himself did not see himself as *merely*
a composer of music for dancing, and it would be patently absurd to
claim he did.

But if you want to draw "conclusions" from this, you must clearly
learn how to form the negative of some boolean operators correctly
to avoid logical fallacies (in this case, illicit conversion, i.e.
the invalid inversion of a A- or O-type proposition.)

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From al at sgi.com  Tue Jul 22 02:06:09 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:06:09 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <48857625.6020902@sgi.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
	<48857625.6020902@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <488578D1.6030103@sgi.com>

Alexis Cousein wrote:
> But if you want to draw "conclusions" from this, you must clearly
> learn how to form the negative of some boolean operators correctly
> to avoid logical fallacies 
> 

"Dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter", also known in some
variants as "proof by example" (just in case someone is still in
doubt, that's not a valid form of proof).

"Some swans I've seen are white, so all swans are white".

"Some Piazzolla numbers I've heard are undanceable, so..."

(left as an exercise to the reader).


-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 02:23:07 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:23:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The real, true, AUTHENTIC Argentine tango
Message-ID: <647311.10720.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,
I think you need to lighten up. I haven't been writing here for long but I was 
reading previously and I don't thing things are not as bad as you make out. 
The only people who refer to real, authentic tango seem to be those who 
say tango should be danced as the Argentines dance it. Pretty tough to 
argue with that, isn't it? Or do you think there's some other way?
And I've never heard ANYONE on this forum even remotely suggest that ... 
"they would be happy to imitate the British model". That seems to be the 
one thing upon which everyone agrees.?
But Larry, are you suggesting that tango is NOT sexy? I can dance with 
a lady who might be middle-aged and?20 pounds overweight. But if she 
really knows how to tango, man, when she's in my tange embrace, she's 
the sexiest woman alive ?:-)
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> Every few weeks, it seems, a brawl takes place in this and other like 
> forums over what is REAL Argentine tango.
> 
> 



      



From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Jul 22 02:26:50 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:26:50 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <4884EEDE.5090909@tangobar-productions.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
	<4884EEDE.5090909@tangobar-productions.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080721235459.01b3dc68@earthnet.net>

Piazzolla is never played at the traditional milongas.  But... the 
traditional milongas are dying, along with the people to whom they 
meant something.  Authentic Argentine tango is either dead, or will 
be soon  We can't go home.

Why try to build a shelter from a nuclear attack?  Why would you want 
to survive?!  To dance authentic Argentine tango, of course.  Alone.

What difference does it make what music is played at the milongas 
these days, since most people can't really dance to any of 
it?  Piazzolla, D'Agostino - different temperamentally and equally 
complicated.  So who cares what is being played?!  And many are just 
projecting their own fantasy of the past,  having heard all about 
it.  One can waste a lifetime sitting there in the milongas in BsAs 
or any place else in anticipation of a glorious tanda, which never 
arrives, or if arrives, in anticipation of a glorious partner for the 
next tanda, or, if that does not happen, in anticipation of another 
milonga the next day.

Piazzolla is bad if one can't dance to it.  So is D'Arienzo and all 
the rest, so it might as well be Piazzolla.

I say, to hell with the rules if they have no meaning.  When men and 
women have stopped being men and women and became amoebas ready to 
dance to anything in any role, why try to save anything?  You can't 
play a game where the players don't agree on the rules.

And now I will go and swallow some anti-sarcasm drugs.

Nina







From tomek at rabarbar.eu.org  Tue Jul 22 06:04:39 2008
From: tomek at rabarbar.eu.org (Tomasz Dymek)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:04:39 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas in Lisbon
Message-ID: <4885B0B7.6060100@rabarbar.eu.org>

I'm going to visit Lisbon in second half of august. Could You recommend some 
  milongas there? Maybe some interesting events? Unfortunately I don't speak 
Portuguese.

-- 
                                        Tomasz Dymek (tomek at rabarbar.eu.org)


From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Tue Jul 22 07:57:30 2008
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:57:30 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Piazolla in Buenos Aires
In-Reply-To: <mailman.703.1216665218.6219.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.703.1216665218.6219.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4885CB2A.5040209@lavidacondeby.com>

This was posted on the list:

Given the number of Piazzolla pieces being re-used by other tango bands, 
it seems rather unlikely to me that Piazzolla is "never danced to 
socially in Buenos Aires".


I have been dancing in the milongas of Buenos Aires since December 2000.  I came here to live in December 2004.  While I have not danced in all 130 milongas and I do not dance 7 days a week, I can tell you that I do dance enough to be recognized in the majority of the milongas and I have my own table in several.  That being said, I can tell you in those 8 years of countless milongas I have not once heard Piazolla played in (even as a cortina), let alone danced to.

Astor Piazolla is recognized here as Tango to listen to. There are still others that do not even consider it tango. (I am not even going to get into that debate so don't even email me off the list to start it.)






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From arborlaw at comcast.net  Tue Jul 22 11:09:07 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:09:07 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
References: <453308.99951.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<8CAB95622144880-FF0-5D6@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>
	<4884B1EC.8090705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4885F813.3060302@comcast.net>

Piazzolla is socially danceable, but only by dancers with a deep 
knowledge of music and very high skill levels.  I've seen a couple of 
couples do it well.

You both have to have very high level lead and follow skills.  You have 
to be very familiar with the particular piece of music from listening to 
it a lot.  You have to have a lot of experience dancing with that 
partner.  And you have music experience at the level of someone who is a 
musician, and you need to be very improvisational.  I personally have 
met around a dozen dancers who have this.

As to whether or not Piazzolla wanted Piazzolla's music to be danced to: 
it's common now for composers and musicians to avoid making danceable 
music.  The development of jazz made the individual performers' 
improvisational explorations the raison d'etre of contemporary music.  A 
lot of musicians feel that accommodating dancers constrains their 
creativity and limits their own intellectual enjoyment of the live music 
experience.  It also takes the spotlight off them, the rest of the crowd 
always watches the dancers rather than the stage.

Not all musicians feel this way.  In 2003 the Roger Humphries Big Band 
stood up after their first set and put down their horns and gave a 
ballroom full of dancers a standing ovation.  The speaker for the band 
had been a young musician in the 40's in New York when the music was 
originally composed.  He said that he was overcome with nostalgia -- 
they had all forgotten what it was like to see the music of Ellington 
and Count Basie alive rather than dead.  His approximate words were "we 
want to thank you because without a roomful of dancers we forget how 
alive this music is.  You are listening to us and anticipating how we 
are going to play, and we are listening to you by watching you.  It's as 
if we are watching ourselves.  You are changing how we play and how we 
want to play in the next minute.  We are not playing to you, we are 
playing with you, and you are playing with us.  It's as if the music 
came out of our horns and got feet and a mind of its own and is moving 
around the dance floor teasing us to run after it."


Myk Dowling wrote:
> melvillefox at aol.com wrote:
>> Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does 
>> not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for 
>> dancing.
> 
> I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing 
> lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect. Especially in cases like 
> this. All we need is one person to report a Piazzolla track played for 
> social dancing in Buenos Aires just the once, and the statement is made 
> absurd.
> 
> Given the number of Piazzolla pieces being re-used by other tango bands, 
> it seems rather unlikely to me that Piazzolla is "never danced to 
> socially in Buenos Aires".
> 
> Unless perhaps, Mel thinks that Nuevo Tango (You know, that type of 
> music that Piazzolla created) isn't "social dancing", which would be 
> taking the common dismissive attitude to Nuevo shown around here to 
> extremes.
> 
> When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for 
> dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context.
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz/blog



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 22 14:24:58 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:24:58 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Caricature
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5F308E1F3C7EDC95AB79497850@phx.gbl>


Deby says:

"Macana is lunfardo for those of you who do not speak it means: lie,
mistake, error. Sooooo for those of you trying to bolster your argument
of gender bender dancing using the Brothers Macana, now you know where
the name Macana comes from. Un nombre re-creativo as we would say here."

Jack answers:

"Thank you Deby; that is indeed very interesting. I always had the
impression that the brothers were dancing a caricature of tango
and, from their name, it now seems that that is their intention.
It's unfortunate that others, such as Miguel y Augusto, appear
to be so deadly serious while dancing their brilliant caricatures.
But maybe the joke's on us :-)
Jack"

It seems that the Joke is US.

Hermanos Macana   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mkR-KoPts

Capussi Flores       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV6Fgptthy4

Serious dancers    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV6Fgptthy4

Javier Rodriguez Andrea Misse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTCbSGslyRY

Stage Tango Students  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukZq-T-j464

Caricature

A picture, description, etc., ludicrously exaggerating the peculiarities or defects of persons or things: His caricature of the mayor in this morning's paper is the best he's ever drawn.

Stage tango is a tango style, it is not for social dancing although social dancers may use some of its elements for that purpose.

There are competitions all over the world in stage tango and salon tango.

It is used for Musical shows or for exhibitiions.  It may have different purposes:  It could be hilarious, very funny, very serious,

generally speaking could have a story. It may have only one couple dancing or be a musical with many actors such as "Tango Argentino".

Argentine Tango became popular again, all over the world due to Stage Tango. Starting with Tango Argentino.


I offer some examples : 1 Hermanos Macana, IMO, excellent tango dancers, try to be funny with great success, but they do not dance a caricature of tango.

2 - Capussi Flores are from the theatrical school, they are hilarious, very funny, are they a caricature of tango? maybe.

3 - Serious dancers - IMO not a caricature of tango

4 - Stage tango students, dancing a vals, the presentation has a story, not a caricature.

 
Best regards, Sergio


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From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Jul 22 15:54:46 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:54:46 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Is tango sexy?
Message-ID: <20080722.125446.309.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>

Jack Dylan writes ---------> Larry, are you suggesting that tango is 
NOT sexy? I can dance with a lady who might be middle-aged and 20 
pounds overweight. But if she really knows how to tango, man, when 
she's in my tange embrace, she's the sexiest woman alive! :-)

Erh, Jack, your ideas of unsexy and mine obviously are different - 
"middle-aged and 20 pounds overweight" just about defines sexy woman to 
me!  And who says what's overweight?

But I get your point.  Some people when they dance almost become 
different people - or show a side of themselves they often do not show 
in public.

But there's a deeper question here, more than your or my tastes. Is 
tango itself sexy?

No.  Tango dancing is just a bunch of ideas and techniques and rules of 
how to dance, and each person has their own collection and variations 
of those memes.

For instance, a caricia in tango is when someone uses their thigh, 
ankle, or foot to caress their partner. If the most repulsive person in 
the world (according to your own personal definition) caresses you, is 
that sexy? Unless you are masochistic, the answer is NO. It would be 
stomach-turning.

Sexy is not a quality of a dance or a dance move. It's a quality of a 
person. And not just an innate quality. It depends on the context. Is 
she doing it because she loves/likes/lusts for me? Or is she setting me 
up for her pimp/boyfriend to rob and maybe kill me? Well, OK, maybe 
some guys would be extra-turned on by the danger, but that's part of 
the point.

Tango can be used to seduce and to seduce back. Of course other dances 
can too. Any swing dancers here? Salsa dancers? You know what I mean. 
In by-gone days the waltz was used to devastating effect by seducers 
(and sometimes still is).

But what is unique to tango is its range and flexibility of expressing 
emotion. So it certainly can be used to seduce.

But many people miss an important point when they talk about how sexy 
tango dancers can be. Tango can also be used to express other emotions.

So if we use the word "is" to mean "can be used to express", tango IS 
sexy.  And tango is sad, and happy, and full of rage, and exuberant, 
and funny, and full of sorrow at a loved one's death. Tango is the 
entire rainbow of feeling.

Larry de Los Angeles



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From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 18:09:29 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Is tango sexy?
In-Reply-To: <20080722.125446.309.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <6061.66749.qm@web52207.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I have always said, 

"Salsa is the sexiest dance in the world and tango is the most passionate dance in the world."

I know.  I didn't answer your question.  :o)





      

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 22 18:14:16 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:14:16 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] World stage tango championship in B.A.
Message-ID: <BAY105-W54D733102CEB33924FE52C97850@phx.gbl>



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9BfuNT7mX4&NR=1


You will recognize that some of the steps and figures used by these competitors are used by other stage tango dancers we have been looking at .

Enjoy, Sergio
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 21:10:03 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:10:03 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <B9F87F52-5344-4092-9DEF-A348C2D9AED1@gmail.com>

Carol Sheperd wrote:

> As to whether or not Piazzolla wanted Piazzolla's music to be danced  
> to: it's common now for composers and musicians to avoid making  
> danceable music. The development of jazz made the individual  
> performers' improvisational explorations the raison d'etre of  
> contemporary music. A lot of musicians feel that accommodating  
> dancers constrains their creativity and limits their own  
> intellectual enjoyment of the live music experience. It also takes  
> the spotlight off them, the rest of the crowd always watches the  
> dancers rather than the stage.

There is a lot of truth in Carol Shepherd's post about musicans and  
dancers, and basically agree with everything she said.

I just want to add that I know a lot of jazz musicians who manage to  
survive by playing for weddings and dances. (I know plenty of "legit"  
players who do the same.) These gigs aren't blowing sessions. They  
might play some cocktail music, but there is also a demand for pop  
tunes and songs where people can dance waltz, fox trot, swing, etc. It  
depends on what the person who hired the bandleader asked for, and  
what the bandleader comes up with to make the attendees enjoy  
themselves. And musicians do love to see people dancing in these  
situations. It means they're doing their job. That's better than  
playing just background music.

In other words, many jazz and classical musicians may have musical  
ambitions unrelated to dance music, but that doesn't mean they don't  
know how to play dance music.

But I think that a problem with a lot of today's tango groups is that  
they don't have any idea what it means to play for dancing. (No  
offense. I respect the fact that they are playing live music. I just  
usually would rather that it not be at a milonga.) If a music ensemble  
plays Piazzolla at a milonga - for people to dance to and not as a  
concert break, I think it means that they just don't get it.

It would be like playing, I don't know, Giant Steps, at a swing dance.  
Yeah, it's technically still swing music, but who can dance swing to  
it, really?





From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 22:57:34 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] World stage tango championship in B.A.
Message-ID: <862483.94457.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Sergio,
Yes, a fabulous tango.
But is that what tango is to you - steps and figures?
Two men could dance exactly the same routine, Maybe, technically, equally 
as well. But, to me anyway, it would look and, more importantly,?feel like a 
completely different dance. 
Don't we talk a lot about the feeling of tango. I know it's very important to me 
[understatement!]?and the feeling I have when I watch a man and a woman is 
completely different to when I watch a man and a man. They can both be 
fabulous and very enjoyable, but different.
Maybe I'm just not PC enough to think of the genders in the same way. And, 
into my mind pops .... "thank god for that" ?:-)
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9BfuNT7mX4&NR=1
> 
> 
> You will recognize that some of the steps and figures used by these competitors 
> are used by other stage tango dancers we have been looking at .
> 



      



From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 03:01:17 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <B9F87F52-5344-4092-9DEF-A348C2D9AED1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804304.38838.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

> But I think that a problem with a lot of today's tango
> groups is that they don't have any idea what it means to play for
> dancing. 

I think the problem of musicians not having an idea of what it is like to play for dancers is less and less of an issue every year.  I have not really encountered that problem, though that doesn't mean I like everything every live band plays.  Heck, I don't like all of the Golden Age stuff, either.

If a community wants to develop their live music scene, then a great way to go, I think, is through the music departments of the local universities.  Actually, three of the four local groups here started pretty independently with graduate students at one university who were introduced to tango by one means or another.  Most of the musicians had jazz and classical backgrounds.  All have been very receptive to feedback as to how danceable their music is.  They are always excited to see how dancers react to their music.  When they do play something that is undanceable, they are always aware of it and will introduce the piece differently.  Personally, I'm excited by the changes I've seen in the live tango scene over the past few years.  It's something to celebrate.  

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 03:48:18 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How do yoou know it is tango
In-Reply-To: <722613.26598.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6703.43330.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 7/22/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Pupi Castello was correct and I think everyone who learns 
> tango discovers this for himself. 
> Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need 
> to worry about that pesky walk :-)
> Jack

Well, I enjoy Nuevo because it's just plain fun.  One of my students (and a popular dancer) is young man well into his 60's, doing nuevo pretty well.  And if I can move as fluidly as he when I get to be his age, then cool!  So his posture isn't perfect and neither is his walk.  But he can skate rings around me at the ice-skating rink in his old-fashioned thin leather skates.  Watching him and his wife of 40+ years dance nuevo reminds me of what's really important in life - health, happiness, and love.

Happy, healthy, loving tangos to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 23 09:52:21 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:52:21 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W46670C6A013E14E2E28DFF97840@phx.gbl>


Jack says:  "Don't we talk a lot about the feeling of tango. I know it's very important to me [understatement!] and the feeling I have when I watch a man and a woman is completely different to when I watch a man and a man. They can both be fabulous and very enjoyable, but different."


Hi Jack,
              I totally agree with you.  Precisely this is what I have been trying to explain :  Tango may be danced in different ways, as there are different styles,
which have different purposes.  The music and the style (along with the place, available space, partner, general athmosphere, the way you are at the moment) provide changes in the way you feel.

Dancing to Piazzola or to any music for instance:  At the beginning most people prefer certain tango orchestras because they have a predictable beat. They know what to expect as they get familiar with the tango tempo.

After a while they discover that some tango orchestras are easier than others to dance to. Are more regular, without extremes .

 Pretty soon they become conscious about the fact that  tango has a beginning, a mid portion, a preparation for the ending and an ending. That it runs like a river, slowly and serene at times and fast like a torrent at other moments.

This requires an artistic interpretation of the music through the dance, with changes in dynamics.  You have to learn to dance with feeling, with fast or slow moves or pauses in order to synchronize with the music.

The day arrives when you can dance to any tango orchestra with ease, they are all different and evoke different feeling which should be danced accordingly.

You have been improvising, and now discover that to improvise to certain music could be very difficult, but if you know that music well enough you can find certain moves to correlate with it and then you choreograph for an exhibition to some strange music. (Piazzola for instance).

You have to understand that there are many styles, they have different purpose (to dance socially, or to act on stage, or to surprise with unexpected moves, or to impress with elegance, or to bring back dancing forms from old times, etc.)   .

You concentrate in social dancing, develop musicality, connection and feeling, while others do it in stage tango, developing high degree of skill, elegance, 
and knowledge of the dance.  Both are equally tango, they are different.  One is not superior to the other, they have different purpose.

Some tango dancers know only one aspect or style of tango (are totally ignorant about other styles and possibilities, they never saw a tango musical) to the point that when they see something different they doubt that that dance so different from theirs could also be tango. Their first reaction is "this is not tango", the second invariably is " this is not for social dancing".  

They are wrong both times, this is a different style of tango and given the right circumstances (mostly available space to dance) can be used for social dancing.

Others are well versed in different styles that they use to adjust to different circumstances.

Summary: if you are contented dancing milonguero, you do not need anything else.  Those that dance on stage have connection, great skills, lead to perfection, have feeling, ...but those elements of tango are different, the feeling is different...very different...

Best regards, Sergio


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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 23 14:47:59 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:47:59 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>


>> Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need
>> to worry about that pesky walk :-)


I know that there is a smiley face at the end of this statement, but this nevertheless seems to me
a rather gratuitously insulting remark, creating more heat than light, and perhaps reflecting significant
ignorance on the part of the author.  I love the pesky walk in close embrace.  I love the joy of the open, more
intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo.  What is the point of insulting the Nuevo dancers?

And while I'm bitching, I often fail to understand the use of the word "social" in the context of Tango.  To me, social
dance is simply that which can be danced socially.  Much of what comes under attack here as "not social" can be
easily danced in a social environment IF there is room on the dance floor, and IF the lead is good, and IF the follow
has the requisite skill and fitness.  But lack of any of these doesn't make the style "not social", it simply means that
the floor is too crowded or that the lead or follow isn't up to his / her job.


Cheers, David

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From tempehuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 15:42:45 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:42:45 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807231242l6d7ab319m9159cdbf93bcd5e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:47 AM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jack Dylan wrote:
>
>> Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need
>> to worry about that pesky walk :-)
>
> I know that there is a smiley face at the end of this statement,
> but this nevertheless seems to me a rather gratuitously insulting
> remark,

    Oh, but they're the most fun of all!     :-)

> creating more heat than light, and perhaps reflecting significant
> ignorance on the part of the author.

     So you thought you'd top a light-hearted poke at a generalized
style with a full-blown personal insult, calling Mr. Dylan ignorant?
(Oh excuse me, "perhaps" ignorant.)

 > What is the point of insulting the Nuevo dancers?

      Because they're there (you know, like why climb a mountain?).
And because it's fun.  Oh, and because so many of them dress so funny.

      Seriously, you need to lighten up.  Mr. Dylan did include a
smiley.  Besides, from everything I've seen (and despite some
denials), mocking other styles of tango is a time-honored Argentine
tradition going way, way back.  It would seem to be as Argentine and
traditional as the cabaceo.  The dance world in general is gossipy,
that's just the way it is.

Huck

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 23 16:19:40 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:19:40 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W27631FAC9477C4BB5CCB7391840@phx.gbl>


Huck wrote:
> So you thought you'd top a light-hearted poke at a generalized
> style with a full-blown personal insult, calling Mr. Dylan ignorant?
> (Oh excuse me, "perhaps" ignorant.)

Ooops.  Touche.  My apologies to Mr. Dylan.

And although it does appear to be a "time-honored" tradition to mock
other styles of Tango, that doesn't necessarily make it an honorable tradition.

Cheers,

D. David Thorn


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From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 16:21:04 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:21:04 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Caricature
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W5F308E1F3C7EDC95AB79497850@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W5F308E1F3C7EDC95AB79497850@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3eff99210807231321p5bbf9a0en13acce40566228c9@mail.gmail.com>

Just an aside:
Capussi/Flores are the only couple in your list that dances (socially) in
exactly the same way as they perform on stage (minus the costumes and
make-up).


Jack answers:


2 - Capussi Flores are from the theatrical school, they are hilarious, very
funny, are they a caricature of tango? maybe
Capussi Flores       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV6Fgptthy4
.

-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Wed Jul 23 16:37:53 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:37:53 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <488796A1.9090506@comcast.net>

To me "social dancing" is, simply, any partner dance that is not 
choreographed and/or for competition.

There are those who understand "social dancing" to customarily imply 
dancing around with multiple partners in one evening.  For some of 
those, the intimacy of tango may be too much for more than the one 
partner they regularly dance with.  And so they may say they do not like 
to "social dance" or that social dancing to any style of tango is 
inappropriate.

Many on here are inappropriately using the word "social" (as in "nuevo 
is not a social dance") when they really should be using structural 
terminology and dance etiquette concepts to make these statements, such 
as traveling dance vs. slot or stationary dance, line of dance errors, 
and bad floorcraft.  Examples of line of dance errors and bad floorcraft:

--crossing a traveling line of dance, blocking a traveling line of 
dance, going too fast or slow or changing abruptly with no warning

(specifically in tango: stopping your traveling dance to execute several 
measures of nuevo in place, thereby causing couples behind you to 
collide like dominos.  Can we stop this PLEASE?)

--leading your partner into another couple without looking in your 
'blind spot,' failing to contract one's dance space to accommodate 
others on a crowded floor

It is very common in a small dance floor for a traveling dance to not 
coexist well with a stationary dance.  Most forms of nuevo are 
predominantly stationary and milonguero is a traveling dance with a line 
of dance.  The same structural conflict exists where some dancers are 
doing quickstep and others are doing lindy hop.  AFAIK there is no good 
way to deal with this on a very small floor other than the DJ announcing 
a set of one or the other and trying to make everyone happy some of the 
time.

The social convention in a larger dance floor that accommodates both 
structures, is for the traveling dance to progress around the outside 
and the stationary dance to be limited to the inside with a safe margin 
between them.  (Doh!)

It never ceases to AMAZE me that the non-traveling dancers will plant 
themselves directly in the line of dance.  They just haven't been told 
how to behave.

Any dance is a 'social' dance if the dancers are aware of and courteous 
to others and obey basic dance etiquette rules.  And any dancer is 
'anti-social' in being unaware by selfishly ignoring other dancers and 
their needs.

Sorry folks, but it's my experience that tango dancers on average know 
the least of all dancers in every style I do about standard dance 
etiquette and floorcraft.  Maybe because tango dancers are much less 
likely to come into tango as their first dance rather than from other 
ballroom experience where these are more frequently taught.  But I also 
think that floorcraft and etiquette are rarely taught in damce.  I 
myself cannot recall any tango class where the basic concepts of 
floorcraft and etiquette were presented and practiced.  (As opposed to 
practicing the structural characteristics such as the 'chairs in the 
center' line-of-dance type of exercise.)


David Thorn wrote:
>>> Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need
>>> to worry about that pesky walk :-)
> 
> 
> I know that there is a smiley face at the end of this statement, but this nevertheless seems to me
> a rather gratuitously insulting remark, creating more heat than light, and perhaps reflecting significant
> ignorance on the part of the author.  I love the pesky walk in close embrace.  I love the joy of the open, more
> intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo.  What is the point of insulting the Nuevo dancers?
> 
> And while I'm bitching, I often fail to understand the use of the word "social" in the context of Tango.  To me, social
> dance is simply that which can be danced socially.  Much of what comes under attack here as "not social" can be
> easily danced in a social environment IF there is room on the dance floor, and IF the lead is good, and IF the follow
> has the requisite skill and fitness.  But lack of any of these doesn't make the style "not social", it simply means that
> the floor is too crowded or that the lead or follow isn't up to his / her job.
> 
> 
> Cheers, David
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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> 

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http://arborlaw.biz/blog



From larrynla at juno.com  Wed Jul 23 18:13:04 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:13:04 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The language of Tango
Message-ID: <20080723.151304.7231.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com>

Every dance is a language of the body.  Some dances are very limited in 
how many "words" they have, ways to "pronounce" those words, and how 
they can be combined into "sentences" and "paragraphs" and so on.  
Some have more range.

What's unique about tango is that the range of its language is a full 
order of magnitude (at least) more than any other social dance.  It can 
be used on the stage to tell a story.  Or to make an artistic statement 
that is like abstract art.  Or make people laugh, as a string of jokes 
or a more organized comedic tale.  And more.

Still tango, but tango for show, where talented dancers give something 
to the world.  And their more rarefied confections might seem to be 
more cerebral than passionate, but those of you who know tango 
performers know how much energy and caring and damned hard work goes 
into those confections.  Performers must care a lot to exert so much 
time and effort into what they do, and their careers have a short shelf 
life.  At thirty often their careers are over.

Or tango can be much more casual.  This is the way of many Argentines, 
who come to a milonga to meet their friends and chat and smoke and 
snack.  And sometimes to dance a little tango with a very small 
vocabulary, and often not very well "pronounced."  If your Spanish is 
good enough sometimes you will hear them laugh at the foreigners and 
how seriously they take tango.

Tango is sometimes used in courting, especially by the young.  It's a 
way to get someone attractive to them in their arms.  Sometimes they 
use it to impress with their skill and agility and stamina.  Or maybe 
impress with their fashion style, dressing up sharply, or down in 
reverse supercasual street style - which is often more earnest and 
calculated in effect than those who dress up.

But tango can be used for more than sexual reasons.  A son may coax his 
mother onto the dance floor and tease her about being a wallflower.  A 
father may dance with his daughter at a wedding after he's given her 
away to a son-in-law.  A couple may dance in mourning at a wake for 
a friend they will no longer see.

Ultimately tango is a house of many rooms, and it's up to each of us 
how many of those rooms we want to inhabit.  If just one modest room, 
fine, that's your right.  But it is wrong of you to insult others who 
have different needs and desires and abilities.  You not only do them 
disservice, but yourself, when you are small-minded and divisive.

Larry de Los Angeles



____________________________________________________________
Keep your hair. Click for permanent solution to hair restoration
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifueOhlMRCRcqprw7br50GML2O0LLcdK6RtQwWfYJYrCpZD8/


From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 18:24:37 2008
From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <490520.14181.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


When men and women have stopped being men and women and became amoebas ready to dance to anything in any role, why try to save anything?? You can't play a game where the players don't agree on the rules.
And now I will go and swallow some anti-sarcasm drugs.
Nina
?
While I appreciate Nina's sarcasm, I'll bite, since this is a bit in line with the lead or follow?
of another thread.

"It is now true that traditional diifferentiation between male nd female roles in society are
changing. Dance as a reflection of society, incorporates those changes...But the average
anatomical differences between men and women remain....the man uses his strength to
provide support and the woman uses her shape and flexibilty to show a graceful line. When
partnered dance removes the constraints of that traditional style, the movements are likely
to be quite different..."
Kenneth Laws in "Physics and the Art of Dance"
?
Also note that country western dance has been much more resistant to gender role swapping.
In fact it is practically non existant.
Yee Haw, conservatives!
?
?


      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 23 18:35:11 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:35:11 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>


Joe Grohens wrote:

> It would be like playing, I don't know, Giant Steps, at a swing dance.

Indeed.  Giant Steps is 290BPM and not difficult for a decent Balboa dancer (but nearly impossible for any but the
most spectacular Lindy Hopper).  However, even most Balboa dancers would turn up their noses at Giant Steps for
reasons similar to those that cause many Tango dancers to call Piazzolla "undanceable".

I.e. - Many dancers do not have the skill to dance to Piazzolla (or Coltrane) because they don't listen to or dance
to them.  If your tango dance life revolves around the Golden Age, you might never acquire either the requisite
listening or dance skills to dance to Piazzolla.  Many swing dancers don't like the relative complexity of
Coltrane or any of the other bop or post bop jazz musicians (they need that "4-on the floor" beat of the swing era),
just as many Tango dancers don't like the relative complexity of Piazzolla (they need the strong 1 and 3 walking beat).
As Mr. Fox said regarding Oblivion - Where's the Beat?  On the other hand, if you were to spend a few months dancing
exclusively to Piazzolla (Coltrane), you might acquire those skills.

It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard
Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but why in the world would I ever want to?".

It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially danceable.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

_________________________________________________________________
Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!
http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 19:05:52 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:05:52 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <712DF427-9997-4246-8F46-8B27C3DDEBBA@gmail.com>

David Thorn wrote:
> It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I  
> can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard Piazzolla  
> played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but why  
> in the world would I ever want to?". It is an entirely different  
> thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially  
> danceable.

Fair enough.

Maybe you would agree, David, that Piazzolla's music is not well  
suited to the dance abilities and preferences of a very high majority  
of tango dancers?

So, to play Piazzolla's music (whether as a DJ or as a perorming  
musician) for such dancers is to show that you are ignorant of  
dancer's abilities and preferences, or you want to challenge them.

If I were hired to play for a milonga and if much more than one or two  
pieces were by Piazzolla, I would consider that I'd be making it just  
damned difficult for most of the dancers present to dance well and  
enjoy themselves.

Except for the few theatrical/experimental/athletic types in attendance.

I guess you could have a milonga where everyone is expecting to dance  
to Piazzolla. But even alternative milongas normally do not feature  
Piazzolla, he is that difficult.

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 20:11:21 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:11:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
Message-ID: <37697.5468.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
To: Tango-L List <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:52:21 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
>
>
> Jack says:  "Don't we talk a lot about the feeling of tango. 
> I know
it's very important to me [understatement!] and the 
> feeling I have when
I watch a man and a woman is completely 
> different to when I watch a man
and a man. They can both 
> be fabulous and very enjoyable, but different."

Here's perhaps another angle of looking at the questions of feeling in tango. I mentioned before that I have recently learned how to really enjoy dancing as a "follower." After some thinking about it (because all of this discussion has actually inspired me to do that) I have some clues as to what's going on.

It seems to me that, in general, part of my attraction to tango is due to the fact that it allows me to express my sensuality safely. I think that in dancing as a follower I have allowed myself to let my feminine side express its own sensuality. I am rather enjoying the opportunities to express the feeling of beauty from a softer, warmer side of life. I am not sure I know how to explain this well, I am just exploring this whole idea as I write.

I can tell that the man I often practice with (most often together with our female partners), when he follows, he does not allow himself that same feminine, expressive avenue. He still dances with masculine expressiveness being dominant which feels totally different to me then dancing with a woman -- it feels more like sparring. However, when we exchange roles, I let go of my masculine side and let the feminine flourish. Quite a nice feeling. And that has nothing to do with the fact I am dancing with a man.

On the other hand, one of my female partners often likes to practice leading with me. I can tell that she does "all the right moves" but her energy is still predominantly feminine. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it is quite different.

I am not a bisexual man by any means, but am a firm believer that each one of us has those two components in us and have learned to enjoy my own feminine in tango dance as much as I do my masculine. Does that make any sense?

Is it still tango? I will let "the authorities" decide on that. I know that when there are opportunities for me to dance with women in traditional roles, I will take them. If there aren't, I will welcome an opportunity to dance as a follower with a good leader regardless of the gender of the leader. If there is masculine energy present so much the better because it is complementary to the feminine which makes the whole experience more complete and enjoyable.

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================


From leonardok at mac.com  Wed Jul 23 20:47:04 2008
From: leonardok at mac.com (Leonardo Kunkello)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:47:04 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  The language of Tango
Message-ID: <2FDD141F-C91C-41B9-A7A2-468C31CDE367@mac.com>

Saludos para ti, Larry de Los Angeles

Of all the postings in all the time I have been on this site this one  
of yours has been the most insightful and best scripted description  
and analogy for tango I have yet read. Well well well said. I love "a  
house of many rooms"

I so tire of hearing small minds trying to squeeze tango into one  
little box. It was the creativity and expression of feelings and  
emotions that gave birth to tango and because of creativity and  
versatility it will continue to stay alive for all times. I anxiously  
anticipate opening and exploring new rooms.

Leonardo K

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 21:38:37 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:38:37 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  The language of Tango
Message-ID: <749021FC-6702-4EA0-80E4-621C6F069218@gmail.com>

>
> What's unique about tango is that the range of its language is a  
> full order of magnitude (at least) more than any other social dance.  
> It can be used on the stage to tell a story. Or to make an artistic  
> statement that is like abstract art. Or make people laugh, as a  
> string of jokes or a more organized comedic tale. And more.

I agree with others ... nice post, Larry.

This point, quoted above, in particular, about the expressive range of  
tango is something I have long marvelled at.



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 24 01:43:07 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:43:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The language of Tango
Message-ID: <651780.13179.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,
As others have said - nice post; I also like the 'tango is a house of many 
rooms' analogy. 
The people who built this house, and their successors,?the current guardians, 
are wonderful, generous people and they allow me to use?the house?whenever 
I want. They even allow me to take it to other countries and to show it to other 
people who can then also use the house, even though they might never have 
seen it in its original setting.
But what I'm always very mindful of is that this is not MY house and?it's 
incumbent on me to respect it and to take care of it at all times. Personally, 
I don't feel that I have the right to change it.. I can't say for example that the 
house is very plain so I think I'll?add-on a few balconies. Or, the house is only 
3-storeys, not enough for me so I'll just add another storey. Or, in my country 
we eat in the kitchen so I'll change the kitchen to a dining room. Or, this room 
is too small so I'll knock down a couple of walls to make the room bigger. Apart 
from being disrespectful to the house and the guardians of the house, the result 
could be that the house might collapse. 
Yes, the house has many rooms but the number is not inifinite and if some 
people have different needs, desires and abilities, which are not satisfied by 
this house, then IMHO, they should find another house rather than trying to 
change this house. 
Btw, I love Salon, Milonguero, Nuevo and Show Tango and there is plenty of 
room in the house for many styles of tango. But there has to be limits.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> 
> Ultimately tango is a house of many rooms, and it's up to each of us 
> how many of those rooms we want to inhabit.? If just one modest room, 
> fine, that's your right.? But it is wrong of you to insult others who 
> have different needs and desires and abilities.? > 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 24 03:07:43 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:07:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
Message-ID: <412906.38121.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

It certainly wasn't my intention to insult Nuevo dancers. I like to dance 
some Nuevo elements and I enjoy watching good Nuevo dancers.
My point was that, in my opinion,?the walk is less important to Nuevo 
dancers than to those who dance Salon or even Milonguero style. It
appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented.
Do you disagree with that?
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> 
>? I love the pesky walk in close embrace.? I 
> love the joy of the open, more
> intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo.? What is the point of insulting 
> the Nuevo dancers?
> 



      



From politas at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 06:40:54 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:40:54 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>

David Thorn wrote:
> It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard
> Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but why in the world would I ever want to?".
> 
> It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially danceable.

I've certainly often heard Piazzolla played at Milongas in Australia, 
and I've danced to it myself. It's not the easiest music to dance to, 
but when you get accustomed to it, it can make for a beautiful dance 
experience.

I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my 
partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into 
anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder?

-- 
Myk Dowling

From politas at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 06:53:53 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:53:53 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
In-Reply-To: <37697.5468.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <37697.5468.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48885F41.1050505@gmail.com>

Dubravko Kakarigi wrote:

> I am not a bisexual man by any means, but am a firm believer that
> each one of us has those two components in us and have learned to
> enjoy my own feminine in tango dance as much as I do my masculine.
> Does that make any sense?

Tango has definite male and female roles in the dance. To say that only
a person born with a penis can play a male role, and only a person born
with a vagina can play a female role seems frankly absurd.

-- 
Myk Dowling


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 24 12:02:06 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:02:06 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <BLU119-W27BDCDD1290C5F3B189D1191870@phx.gbl>


Jack Dylan wrote
>  It appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented.
>  Do you disagree with that?

Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree strongly.
I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga.

In the volcada, every aspect is led and can be modified or reversed at absolutely
any point in the "figure".  I can easily lead my follow to sweep large or small radius, lead her leg to stop prior to
reaching my position and go back, lead her leg to stop in a (leaning) crusada position with or without a weight change,
lead her to sweep her leg so that it stops near me and then convert the volcada into a front step, etc. ad infinitum.

Quick Colgada: Say I lead a back ocho and step into my follow, placing one of my feet against 1/2 of her just landed foot and take her off axis (but supported) at the same time.  I now have about a billion things I could lead from that position ranging from simply righting her and stepping out, to pivoting her in an outward leaning embrace, with all sorts of stuff in between.

Thus every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should be, used to help interpret the music.  Yes, figures do get used as learning tools, but that should not be confused with dancing.

Honestly, I know no figures bigger than an ocho, a front step, a side step, a tip of my partner off axis, etc.  I can dance an entire song, lead things I've never lead before, repeat nothing (except perhaps for a few of those pesky walking steps in between stopping to cause a traffic jam).  I am also not even remotely unique in the world of leads
who are, or are trying to learn to be (this be me), decent Nuevo leads who listen to and interpret the music,
just as do dancers of all stripe.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008

From al at sgi.com  Thu Jul 24 14:36:52 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:36:52 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <712DF427-9997-4246-8F46-8B27C3DDEBBA@gmail.com>
References: <712DF427-9997-4246-8F46-8B27C3DDEBBA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4888CBC4.6060406@sgi.com>

Joe Grohens wrote:
> Maybe you would agree, David, that Piazzolla's music is not well  
> suited to the dance abilities and preferences of a very high majority  
> of tango dancers?
> 
You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as "Piazolla's
music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9; it's a collection
that encompasses many different styles of music.

Do I agree that "Adios Noni?o" played by a symphony orchestra isn't really
dance music? Yes.

Some other pieces of music are danceable, period, and it doesn't take rocket
science to dance them.

For some others, it all depends on context, and it takes a good DJ to
appreciate context.

-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From nina at earthnet.net  Thu Jul 24 19:47:33 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:47:33 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>
	<48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>

 From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place.  Maybe 
Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no 
place else.:)

So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango 
country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in 
every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc.  Instead of other 
fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new 
styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango 
Australian style", etc. :)

Nina


At 04:40 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:

>I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my
>partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into
>anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder?
>
>--
>Myk Dowling
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From nina at earthnet.net  Thu Jul 24 20:01:46 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:01:46 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
In-Reply-To: <48885F41.1050505@gmail.com>
References: <37697.5468.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<48885F41.1050505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080724174819.01b20650@earthnet.net>

Noticing the anatomical differences between genders is how 
3-year-olds learn that mommy and daddy are different.  One might 
expect grown men and women to embrace their (and others') gender in a 
more sphisticated way.  But then, in tango, you never know...:)

The key words in Myk's post are "playing a role".  Real dancers do 
not play a role.  They dance who they are.  If a woman can't quite 
figure out the power of her gender, she is in trouble, just as a man 
swimming in feminine energy.

C.G. Jung wrote extensively on anima and animus, and the power forces 
in people's psyche that demand the fusion to happen when people are 
in their late 30s or so.

Why is it that the Argentines have no issues with gender roles?  They 
dance as men and women, and, if those roles don't work, they go to 
some milonga gay.  But they certainly do not try to justify 
abandoning traditional gender roles in the traditional milongas.  The 
Westerners seem to want to dance at the milonga gay, but refuse to 
call it that , insisting on calling it Argentine tango, acceptable 
social tango and want not. :)

Actually, I am not against tango in energetic gender drag.  I just 
want to know when and where it is happening, so that I can be prepared. :)

Nina



At 04:53 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
>Dubravko Kakarigi wrote:
>
> > I am not a bisexual man by any means, but am a firm believer that
> > each one of us has those two components in us and have learned to
> > enjoy my own feminine in tango dance as much as I do my masculine.
> > Does that make any sense?
>
>Tango has definite male and female roles in the dance. To say that only
>a person born with a penis can play a male role, and only a person born
>with a vagina can play a female role seems frankly absurd.
>
>--
>Myk Dowling
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 20:07:18 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:07:18 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Message-ID: <0D589437-4047-41C6-B280-C2C1D688B184@gmail.com>

> You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as  
> "Piazolla's music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9;  
> it's a collection that encompasses many different styles of music.

Yes, yes. Of course you are right, Alexei. My earlier statement was a  
huge generalization. I'm not sure I can make a generalization,  but  
let me try again. The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- 
garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which  
was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be  
difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance  
settings. Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically  
very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is  
published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often  
hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think  
that it is bad judgment.

Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that  
most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that  
doesn't have a metronomic beat.

A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think  
that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to  
newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance  
forms.

These are worthwile points to consider.

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 24 22:12:15 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:12:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Figures
Message-ID: <157610.89996.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

David,
You disagree but then immediately prove my point by describing 2 such 
Nuevo figures. A Salon or Milonguero dancer might have no such figures 
to describe. Even Ochos an Giros are just walking steps divided by pivots.
Btw, I never said Nuevo figures were not led. I assume they are. But they
appear to be?figures that both of the couple must know. If the lady doesn't
know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, they cannot be led by the man.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> 
> Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree strongly.
> I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga.
> 



      



From nina at earthnet.net  Thu Jul 24 22:45:55 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:45:55 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <48893B8C.6010108@gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>
	<48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>
	<48893B8C.6010108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080724203953.01b1fb00@earthnet.net>

For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in 
trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone.  There 
was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and 
she tried to collect money.  There was something quaint about her...

How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!

Does anybody know if she is still there?

:)

Nina


At 08:33 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
  But Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street 
dancers and stage shows as well.

>--
>Myk Dowling


From politas at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 22:53:44 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:53:44 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>	<48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <48894038.9050405@gmail.com>

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>  From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place.  Maybe 
> Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no 
> place else.:)

Well, it depends more on the size of the dance floor than the size of
the country, surely. Yes, we often have a fair amount of space to play
with, but certainly not always.

> So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango 
> country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in 
> every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc.  Instead of other 
> fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new 
> styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango 
> Australian style", etc. :)

How about recognising that people dance according to the conditions? If
there is space on the floor, it is perfectly acceptable to make use of
some of it. When things get crowded, you bring your movements in
tighter. In any case, it is certainly possible to dance to Piazzolla in
crowded conditions.

Like David said, it's a case of what you're used to. If you choose never
to dance to nuevo music, you'll never be very practised at dancing to
it. I take difficult music as a challenge, especially when the music has
as much beauty as Piazzolla's. Dammit, I _want_ to dance to that. I want
to turn that fantastic music into movement.

Personally, I'm against "splitting up" tango, other than by music.
Milonga is different to Tango is different to Vals is different to
Nuevo. You dance to each type of music in a different way. I don't dance
to a milonga the same way I dance to a tango, any more than I dance
nuevo style to a tango or vals.

Can anyone claim to dance "true Argentine Tango"? Do they dance the same
way in BsAs now as they did in the twenties? Is Tango something to be
fossilised and enshrined in a strict form, or is it a living art form?
If it's a living art form, which is certainly what I want to be part of,
then you can never really define it precisely. And you shouldn't even
try. That's what happened to ballroom dancing, and now there's no room
for creativity any more in it. As has been pointed out, "Strictly
Ballroom" is a scarily accurate portrayal.

If people aren't interested in dancing "Argentine Tango", then they'll
dance something else. Anyone who calls what they do "Argentine Tango" is
presumably looking to Argentina as the source for their art form. But
Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street dancers and
stage shows as well.

-- 
Myk Dowling


From politas at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 22:55:32 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:55:32 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080724203953.01b1fb00@earthnet.net>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>	<48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>	<48893B8C.6010108@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724203953.01b1fb00@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <488940A4.1000703@gmail.com>

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in 
> trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone.  There 
> was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and 
> she tried to collect money.  There was something quaint about her...
> 
> How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!

How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference 
between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location!

-- 
Myk Dowling

From politas at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 22:59:06 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:59:06 +1000
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <488940A4.1000703@gmail.com>
References: <BLU119-W468BEA145C5B972ED644A891840@phx.gbl>	<48885C36.9070000@gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724174106.01b037c0@earthnet.net>	<48893B8C.6010108@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724203953.01b1fb00@earthnet.net>
	<488940A4.1000703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4889417A.3070001@gmail.com>

Myk Dowling wrote:
> Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>> For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in 
>> trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone.  There was 
>> a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and she 
>> tried to collect money.  There was something quaint about her...
>>
>> How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration!
> 
> How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference 
> between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location!
> 
And actually, who is to say that a drunken trashy dancer by herself 
might not provide some kind of inspiration? Is there no story of 
interest to be told there? A sad tale of failure and an uncaring 
society? The sort of story that very few styles of dance could tell?

-- 
Myk Dowling

From carlitokel at usa.net  Thu Jul 24 23:42:25 2008
From: carlitokel at usa.net (CHARLES KELLY)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:42:25 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 28, Issue 23
Message-ID: <745mgyDJn0386S11.1216957345@cmsweb19.cms.usa.net>

Social tango:  Capussi & Plebes

Many years ago, I had the pleasure and rare opportunity to observe Capussi &
Malena Plebes dancing "socially" at a milonga briefly, one night at the
Montreal Festival. Both of them had come to the Festival teaching and
performing with other partners; so I presume that in this instance, their
pairing was spontaneous, and un-rehearsed.   Capussi did not do anything
"theatrical," nor did Ms. Plebes do any of the special things that she is so
capable of doing in performance.  Rather, they were simply dancing a tanda of
milongas together, in the line of dance, having a great time, right along with
everyone else, on a relatively crowded dance floor. And, honestly, it was one
of the most memorable and spectacular things I can ever recall seeing, in ANY
tango venue.  So many years later, I can still see it clearly in my mind's
eye.  Such is the impression it had on me.

Similarly, over the years I have seen quite a few well-known figures --
Chicho, Gavito, Salas, and others -- dancing socially in milongas with great
beauty and great effect, and without any excessive pretence to stage or
performance dancing.  So, my hat's off to those who have the good grace, good
sense, and the balance of esthetics, to do the right thing in the right place
& at the right time.  Cheers to all;  ckel. 

 

      




From al at sgi.com  Fri Jul 25 02:15:29 2008
From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:15:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
In-Reply-To: <0D589437-4047-41C6-B280-C2C1D688B184@gmail.com>
References: <0D589437-4047-41C6-B280-C2C1D688B184@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48896F81.5090301@sgi.com>

Joe Grohens wrote:
> The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- 
> garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which  
> was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be  
> difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance  
> settings.

No argument from me. But is something like "Bando" or "Preparense"
(1955) "nuevo" in this context? Is something like Milonga del Angel
"nuevo" in this context? Is "Oblivion" (if you'll excuse the very
British expression, the closest tango thing there is to the
proverbial smooch dance music at parties)?

You'll probably find as many opinions as people expressing them (except
from the bulk of staunch guardians of orthodoxy espousing simple
views like Piazzolla != danceable).

> Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically  
> very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is  
> published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often  
> hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think  
> that it is bad judgment.

No argument from me. Besides, I know many tango ensembles who make
arrangements of non-Piazzolla numbers so obviously tuned to a listening
audience that they also become undanceable.

There are many ensembles (outside of Argentina) without a
*really* good feel for playing for a dance audience, not only
because it requires quite a bit of unusual humility.

> 
> Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that  
> most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that  
> doesn't have a metronomic beat.
> 
That, too.

People who dance to beautiful tango as if there were a fat Nubian
slave beating the drum on a Roman galley instead of tango music
(without ever dancing on the fast beat) make me sad almost as much
as people really misinterpreting Piazzolla.

I just saw some couples on US TV yesterday with absolutely *no*
musicality in their movements, and while they were extremely
elegant in their movement, it was obvious they didn't have a
clue about what tango is all about -- none of that jazz, if
you'll forgive the pun.

There is tons of music that has a "metronomic beat" that doesn't
require you to dance *only* to the basic 2/4 beat. Picking
the instrument you're tracking while you're dancing, and jumping
between the jungle of melodic lines, is one of the real pleasures
of tango (as is watching other people doing it).

> A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think  
> that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to  
> newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance  
> forms.
> 
Good tango dancers have been capable of showing extraordinary abilities
to adapt, even within traditional tango.

I don't think the good dancers to traditional music are the
ones who can't dance to something a bit more adventurous (though some
don't see the point, and that's their god-given right). It's just that
the somewhat less good tango dancers only able to dance to *just* the
simple beat or really uncreative at interpretation are made more aware
of their limitations when they can't fall back on the metronome. And
some resent that with a vengeance.


-- 
Alexis Cousein                                  al at sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect     SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>


From nina at earthnet.net  Fri Jul 25 02:29:09 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:29:09 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
In-Reply-To: <48893EC9.6030200@gmail.com>
References: <37697.5468.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<48885F41.1050505@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080724174819.01b20650@earthnet.net>
	<48893EC9.6030200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080725001502.01af53f8@earthnet.net>

Myk,

Your approach to tango seems a bit too naive and too literal, but 
that probably will change in time.

So just a few corrections:
1. Passion is allowed among people regardless of conventional 
partnerships, if people they are not repressed.
2. Partnerships do not control passion and one does not have to 
pretend to be playing a role in order to justify sharing passion with 
someone other than his or her partner.
3, Milonga gay does not mean segregation of gay people.  It means 
that the codes of conduct are relaxed in regards to the music, the 
gender roles, the invitation style, etc.  But... if you are not 
familiar with these milongas in BsAs, you wouldn't have known it.

And you see what I mean about the cultural stuff?  All I have to do 
is throw out the word "milonga gay" to someone raised in the Western 
homophobic reactionary society and I get  an instant response!

Keep working on it, Myk.  You're doing just fine.

Nina



At 08:47 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote:
>Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
>>Noticing the anatomical differences between genders is how 
>>3-year-olds learn that mommy and daddy are different.
>
>Actually, I think they recognise their different facial features. 
>Anatomical differences are way down the list. Human brains are 
>hard-wired to recognise and distinguish faces
>
>>The key words in Myk's post are "playing a role".  Real dancers do 
>>not play a role.  They dance who they are.  If a woman can't quite 
>>figure out the power of her gender, she is in trouble, just as a 
>>man swimming in feminine energy.
>
>Sorry, Nina, but you're wrong. Dancers play a role, because a dance 
>is telling a story. A good dancer brings their self into the role. 
>People's psyche's are rarely so pure, and the story of the dance is 
>rarely reality. If you dance a passionate dance with someone who is 
>not your partner, you are play-acting, dancing a role. I'm not sure 
>why you want to be dismissive of this very powerful part of human 
>culture. Humans can empathise and communicate fiction. It's a 
>wonderful thing, deserving of great respect.
>
>>Why is it that the Argentines have no issues with gender 
>>roles?  They dance as men and women, and, if those roles don't 
>>work, they go to some milonga gay.  But they certainly do not try 
>>to justify abandoning traditional gender roles in the traditional milongas.
>
>Perhaps it's "traditional" homophobia? What you are describing is 
>called segregation, and it's something that I for one find quite 
>abhorrent in principle. Why should gay people have to go to separate milongas?
>
>>Actually, I am not against tango in energetic gender drag.  I just 
>>want to know when and where it is happening, so that I can be prepared. :)
>
>"I got nothin' against them gay folk, I jes' don't want to see 'em 
>kissin' in front o' me!"
>
>Spend a moment considering the similarities of those two statements, 
>ignoring the obvious differences.
>
>--
>Myk Dowling


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 25 13:22:00 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:22:00 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Figures
Message-ID: <BLU119-W160D386CC3A0B5B10845C091860@phx.gbl>


Jack:

To clarify a little, I was trying to illustrate that the volcada figure is really made up of a number of very small
elements that can be rearranged so that the result does not resemble a volcada.  I have come to believe
that the essence of Nuevo is tiny elements, each no larger than a single walking step, that can be rearranged to serve
the music, just as is the case with individual steps in close embrace style dancing, but with additional elements not
commonly found in close embrace dancers, or at least with the elements used in different ways.

To illustrate, I might (and in fact last night did) lead the following:
1.  Place my partner on her right foot with, say, a back boleo.
2.  Support my partner and take her off-axis towards me (ah-ha.  I think it might be a volcada!).
3.  As I do so, lead her to sweep her free leg (left) clockwise (see, I told you it was a volcada)
4.  Now lead her to stop the sweep after only say 90 degrees. (Huhh?? Isn't that wrong)
5.  Step into her so that she is back on her axis and do a side-step to my right (That is soooo wrong)
We have just executed a left side step, albeit a rather uncommon one.

One can take the nuevo elements that comprise the volcada figure (a teaching artifice, NOT to be confused with actual
dancing) and create many, many responses to the music that do not resemble a volcada.  That was the point that I
was attempting to make.  So yes, nuevo uses many figures in the teaching process, as does most Tango
- think D8CB, or ocho-cortada.  But, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this list, the D8CB should not be confused
with dancing.

Cheers

David
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From brick at fastpack.com  Fri Jul 25 13:29:15 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:15 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Message-ID: <ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>

I recently had the great pleasure of listening to a symposium at a
tango festival entitled "Many styles of authentic Argentine Tango."

The panel was composed of some great dancers from all over the world,
and the discussion was interesting and lively.

It was pointed out that each of the great Milongueros has his own
unique style, influenced by where he primarily dances:
-the space available
-the style of his peers
-the house orchestra (or more recently the DJ)

So even within BsAs, and among the old guard, styles vary greatly.

It was also pointed out that some of those great Milongueros dance
VERY differently when they travel than they do at home. When they have
the space, they use it. People famous for compact movement to rhythmic
music suddenly make large movements to dramatic music, and they do it
well.

I came away with this  major point:

It is all "good tango" as long as you:
1)respect yourself
2)respect your partner
3)respect the music
4)respect the people around you

I think a lot of the resentment against "Nuevo" dancers is because,
when they violate the 4th rule they usually do it in "big way."  But
I've seen plenty of bad "traditional" dancers violate all 4.

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 14:43:37 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:43:37 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807251143w4c683babgf496c05e7fde0eae@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Brick Robbins <brick at fastpack.com> wrote:
>
> I came away with this  major point:
>
> It is all "good tango" as long as you:
> 1) respect yourself
> 2) respect your partner
> 3) respect the music
> 4) respect the people around you
>
> I think a lot of the resentment against "Nuevo" dancers is because,
> when they violate the 4th rule they usually do it in "big way."  But
> I've seen plenty of bad "traditional" dancers violate all 4.

     Good point.  But with that in mind, observe how close-embrace
leaders have a huge advantage complying with rule #4 right off the
bat:  It is physically impossible for them to look at their feet (as
so many amateur nuevo dancers do), and it is also physically
impossible for them to ogle their partner's hot little outfit and
bedroom eyes (as so many amateur nuevo dancers do--and which the close
embrace leaders do as well, of course, except they do it between songs
rather than during  :-).  With those major distractions gone from the
equation, the close-embrace leader is left with the freedom to
actually look at the other dancers and navigate with little to no
effort.

     So almost by definition, close-embrace is a much more
socially-oriented dance than nuevo.  There is a much greater focus on
the other dancers on the floor.  Dancing becomes a cooperative project
shared by many, rather a self-centered, private little world
comprising just two people.

     The many private little two-person worlds behavior that nuevo
tends to induce resembles the scientific model of molecules easily
prone to random collisions.  The cooperative behavior that close
embrace fosters, on the other hand, more resembles the graceful
collective movement of a school of fish in the ocean.

Huck

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 25 14:45:04 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:45:04 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow
Message-ID: <BLU119-W30A15D9E27832DCD0C13F391860@phx.gbl>


Jack Dylan wrote
>But they appear to be figures that both of the couple must know. If the lady
>doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, they cannot be led by the man.

Related to my point about nuevo consisting of "elements", if a follow doesn't understand being tipped even while
being lead (supported with suspension) to do so, she won't get it.  If she doesn't understand how to follow the energy
of the lead, she will miss the sweep, as well as linear boleos, etc....  Nuevo follows don't have to know any figures, but
they do need the technique that allows them to hear and respond to the tiny elements that are part of nuevo.  How is
this any different from expecting your follow to wait, to not shuffle her feet unlead, etc.?

Yes it does require the both the lead and follow have a whole additional set of skills, but it does not require that they
have any figures in common.

Cheers

David
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From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 25 15:12:46 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:12:46 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370807251143w4c683babgf496c05e7fde0eae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370807251143w4c683babgf496c05e7fde0eae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W73338DE60BFD1EBA5D510A9860@phx.gbl>


Huck wrote:

>      The many private little two-person worlds behavior that nuevo
> tends to induce resembles the scientific model of molecules easily
> prone to random collisions. 

Robert Hauk of Portland uses the expression "gas molecules."



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From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 15:24:45 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:24:45 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
In-Reply-To: <B0F39B4029B24ED18AAF75BC9C895CE9@daryac3b1867cb>
References: <ca2c2380807251029w3b7c5589g17754ff378361431@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecf43f370807251143w4c683babgf496c05e7fde0eae@mail.gmail.com>
	<B0F39B4029B24ED18AAF75BC9C895CE9@daryac3b1867cb>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370807251224i6e8da68aw7b0b0a060124fe05@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Darya Khripkova
<dkhripkova at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Close-embrace leaders have a "blind spot" and their follower's eyes are
> closed too :) Call it even?

     Actually no, to be honest.  The blind spot is easily dealt with
through turning relatively frequently (so as to get other viewpoints),
and through trust that the other dancers will behave as they are
supposed to behave, ie. not pass you, not overrun you from behind, not
dance backwards in the line of dance, not zig-zag in and out of lanes,
etc.

     Btw, this brings up an interesting problem that ballroom dancers
often bring to tango.  They are taught that the slower dancers should
be in the inside lanes, while the faster dancers should be on the
outside.  So a ballroom dancer will think nothing of passing somebody
on the outside.  Passing (since it is allowed in the first place) on
the outside rather than the inside is actually good in ballroom,
because it helps prevent the dance floor from decaying into the
middle.  And the maneuver works out fine, because the follower's head
is way back and out of the way and the all the leaders can see
everywhere; but it can be disastrous in the tango world, because the
blind spot prevents the leader from seeing the passer coming, and the
leader doesn't expect him in the first place due to traditional
no-passing codigos.

     Some of the rudest behavior I've seen on a tango dance floor is
some clown trying to squeeze himself and his partner through the half
meter blind spot between me and my partner (in the outside lane) and
the front row of tables.

Huck

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 16:32:00 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:32:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Styles of Tango
Message-ID: <EEEA1B30-E410-4353-9936-38D4070BCAA7@gmail.com>

Huck,

> So almost by definition, close-embrace is a much more socially- 
> oriented dance than nuevo.

It appears that your "definition" of close embrace is, somehow,  
dancing so that it is physically impossible to see your partner and  
the dance floor.

Is that because close embrace dancers dance with their eyes closed? I  
have noticed that among self-described close embrace dancers, but I  
didn't realize it was de rigueur.

And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's  
outfit. Can't say that I've noticed the ogling part. But, my eyes are  
getting old.

Now that tango has evolved into two types, close embrace and nuevo,  
all that remains is for everyone to choose a side and declare their  
allegiance.

Which would be simplified if we would all just admit what everyone is  
already thinking: "close embrace" means good dancing, and "nuevo"  
means bad dancing.

Is there anyone out there who self identifies as a "nuevo" ?

Didn't think so.






From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 25 17:24:21 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:24:21 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W22C81F803A3545236A258C91860@phx.gbl>


>> And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's  
>> outfit.

Forget this outfit business Joe.  I've been working very hard on my Tango Doble Frente

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymrs60k3dU

so that I could look down and ogle my partners backside, I mean, high-heels.

Cheers,

David
_________________________________________________________________
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From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sat Jul 26 13:18:39 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:18:39 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
References: <BLU119-W22C81F803A3545236A258C91860@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AB5F4F96117F4A5DAEB7576D982C42B1@michaelditkoff>

In ballroom, this is called shadow position. Anton Gazeenbeek knows a lot about this and teaches it at the School of Traditional Argentine Tango in New York. (I hope I got the name right.) Watch this clip of dancing with sticks. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsuIuxz5_Eo

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Thorn" <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
To: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango



>> And "nuevo" dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's  
>> outfit.

Forget this outfit business Joe.  I've been working very hard on my Tango Doble Frente

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymrs60k3dU

so that I could look down and ogle my partners backside, I mean, high-heels.

Cheers,

David
_________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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From tango at tangodesalon.de  Sun Jul 27 04:56:24 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:56:24 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Canadian Tango Film Festival
Message-ID: <BBE91D9A-2218-441E-AF96-511302E99384@tangodesalon.de>

Hi all,

could you please help me with an info:

a couple of months ago I read a thred about a canadian Tango-Film- 
Festival Do you have any infos? I lost the link to the site and now I  
can't find it via google.

Thanks

Melina





Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669





From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 27 07:47:59 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 04:47:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W30A15D9E27832DCD0C13F391860@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <685760.28089.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

>From the woman's perspective, I agree with David.  One of the reasons women have trouble with volcadas and colgadas is a lack of a good core.  Having a good core is something most women have to work at moreso than men.

I used to think like Jack - that the woman needed to know the figure.  But a few years ago, an Argentine friend who has been a professional tango dancer (salon) for over 30 years led me into a small colgada, and I said "Hey, that was a colgada" and he said "what's that?"  And I realized that we had been dancing colgadas for years but neither of us new the name of it until I took some nuevo workshops.  

And he wasn't the only one doing that particular move.  I recalled other salon dancers making comments during practicas like "turns seem to be easier if you lean back" long before neuvo came to my part of the country.  So I've concluded that the techniques in nuevo can arise organically from experimentation or accident and that what we now see as a "nuevo" figure merely uses an exaggeration of something already present in classic tango figures.  A purposeful exaggeration can then lead to developing other techniques.

So a related question, then, is "if these techniques can arise organically, why don't they arise more often?".  I believe the answer to that is because people will suppress these discoveries unless they are validated by a credible teacher.  Because if someone didn't teach it, then it couldn't be right.  This way of thinking goes against the entire grain of how tango developed in the first place.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- On Fri, 7/25/08, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow
> To: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 2:45 PM
> Jack Dylan wrote
> >But they appear to be figures that both of the couple
> must know. If the lady
> >doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas,
> they cannot be led by the man.
> 
> Related to my point about nuevo consisting of
> "elements", if a follow doesn't understand
> being tipped even while
> being lead (supported with suspension) to do so, she
> won't get it.  If she doesn't understand how to
> follow the energy
> of the lead, she will miss the sweep, as well as linear
> boleos, etc....  Nuevo follows don't have to know any
> figures, but
> they do need the technique that allows them to hear and
> respond to the tiny elements that are part of nuevo.  How
> is
> this any different from expecting your follow to wait, to
> not shuffle her feet unlead, etc.?
> 
> Yes it does require the both the lead and follow have a
> whole additional set of skills, but it does not require
> that they
> have any figures in common.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 27 14:28:30 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Message-ID: <380515.51501.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Trini,
Very true. When a lady is tipped into a Vocada, she needs to be able 
to keep her body straight so that only a horizontal force is exerted against 
the man. The man can then support this with his body weight and no strength 
is required. [The typical Gavito Lean]. Some ladies sag into the man, i.e. concave 
shape, thereby exerting a downward force and the man must then use his strength 
to support the lady. Other ladies stick their bums out, i.e. convex shape, which 
reduces the force on the man. The problem with this is the man might over-compesate 
because he's expecting more forward force and he can tip forward, off balance.
But, while keeping a straight body while leaning forward is easy for a 20-year old girl, 
it's often a different story for a 50-year old lady, unless she's already a trained dancer.
In this context, one problem that I often have is that I'm quite tall and I have a problem 
with the leaning action when the lady is considerably shorter and we don't have a good 
chest-to-chest contact.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com

>?One of the reasons women 
> have trouble with volcadas and colgadas is a lack of a good core.? 


      



From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 27 18:49:36 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <380515.51501.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <313463.65412.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 7/27/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
> To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 2:28 PM
> Trini,
> Very true. When a lady is tipped into a Vocada, she needs
> to be able to keep her body straight so that only a horizontal force
> is exerted against the man. The man can then support this with his body weight and no strength is required. [The typical Gavito Lean]. 


On top of this, guys will take a new partner and try to lead her into a volcada without even checking if she's comfortable with a lean first.  
That's irresponsible.  So we always tell our students to check first by leading her into a bridge or a small calesita with a lean.  And if she can't do that, don't even try a volcada.

But for the woman, the other issues are 1)having a loose leg and 2)trusting her partner.  So a small step diagonally away and then back again may result in a small volcada, which the woman could interpret as simply a cross off-axis.

>From the perspective of teaching, however, I have found it useful to teach the exaggerated movements to get women to loosen their free leg and develop a core.  What I have noticed in our community recently is that the newer women are not taking classes but they are still getting danced with.  So the women may get the step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed for the moves to develop naturally.  So they are confusing pattern recognition with following.  Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that they really need.
This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 27 23:37:11 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Message-ID: <726405.98013.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Oh yeah, I recognise that. I know some intermediate guys that teach their 
own partner and they actually look quite good together. The problem comes 
when the girl tries to dance with somebody else and she has no idea what?
the man?wants her to do because she can't recognise a 'familiar pattern'. 
Another problem is groups who learn together at the same classes and 
dance together a lot. They have problems when they mix with other groups. 
Oh, are we talking Nuevo again? :-)
But, seriously, I've actually read a couple of jokers on this list [Chris and 
another I forget] who seen to advocate no classes for ladies. Are they 
serious or did I mis-read their meaning?
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos at yahoo.com

> So the women may get the 
> step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed for the moves 
> to develop naturally.? So they are confusing pattern recognition with 
> following.? Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that they 
> really need.
> This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out.
> 
> Trini de Pittsburgh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? ? ? 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 28 00:39:43 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:39:43 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <726405.98013.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <726405.98013.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W44361A7905488A7318CDE4A9830@phx.gbl>

Another reason why it's important for women to keep a strong core when doing volcadas is that leaning with a sway back puts a lot of strain on the lower back muscles and can injure them.

           J


_________________________________________________________________
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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 08:52:40 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Message-ID: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Trini,
?
I know exactly what you're talking about and maybe I'm too cynical but I don't 
think the guys who dance with women who don't take classes are looking for 
feedback on their tango. I suspect their motives lie elsewhere. o_O
If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women who are 
interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to dance 
properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's neck.
But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely wrong - but 
I don't think so :-)
?
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> What I have noticed in our community recently is that the newer women are not 
> taking classes but they are still getting danced with.? So the women may get the 
> step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed for the moves 
> to develop naturally.? So they are confusing pattern recognition with 
> following.? Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that they 
> really need.
> This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out.
> 
> Trini de Pittsburgh


      



From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 11:17:21 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <626761.84310.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I know exactly what you're talking about and maybe
> I'm too cynical but I don't think the guys who dance with women who don't take classes are looking for feedback on their tango. I suspect their motives lie elsewhere. o_O

Oh, no.  The young ones will get dances, regardless, even by the top dancers here.  Most of the men here are very good about taking classes, workshops, and attending the practicas.  They're also good about encouraging the women to go to the practicas and take classes.  But the newer women still don't go.  They think that because they know some steps, they don't need to take the lessons where they can really work on their technique.  Before, the new women would at least attend some regular classes before stopping.  But these new women aren't taking anything.  And I feel the problems cropping up in the men when I dance with them.  Have to figure out what to do about that.

Trini de Pittsburgh


 



      

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Mon Jul 28 11:33:33 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:33:33 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <488DE6CD.9090702@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Jack Dylan wrote:
If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women 
who are
> interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to dance 
> properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's neck.
> But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely wrong - but 
> I don't think so :)
I don't think, you are wrong, Jack, I wish you were...
Reminds me: couple of weeks ago I went to a milonga I do not usually 
attend, and there were some middle aged men I know from other places but 
don't dance with much and they had a young woman at their table... she 
was dressed in a light blue ballroom gown and did not have a clue about 
tango, and they were both fussing over her, taking turns in taking her 
out on the dance floor where she kept wobbling in her shoes and 
stumbling over her own feet, with her toes turned inward  and losing her 
balance at every other step as she did not know how to follow nor seemed 
to know a single tango step.
I kept wondering what a big ego boost this must be for those guys, who 
probably looked like God's gift to dance to a woman like that, and they 
got their hands on her too...

From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 12:03:48 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:03:48 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <488DE6CD.9090702@ruby.plala.or.jp>
References: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<488DE6CD.9090702@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <3eff99210807280903r460ce8acvd48c2bd0cf3c86de@mail.gmail.com>

from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home town
because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg here, and then
your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily practice technique in  a
milonga or in my own living room, without the 'pleasure ' of being
manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to get his feet in the right
spot, without it even crossing his, or the instructor's, mind that he
actually needed to learn how to  LEAD.

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:

> Jack Dylan wrote:
> If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women
> who are
> > interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to
> dance
> > properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's
> neck.
> > But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely
> wrong - but
> > I don't think so :)
> I don't think, you are wrong, Jack, I wish you were...
> Reminds me: couple of weeks ago I went to a milonga I do not usually
> attend, and there were some middle aged men I know from other places but
> don't dance with much and they had a young woman at their table... she
> was dressed in a light blue ballroom gown and did not have a clue about
> tango, and they were both fussing over her, taking turns in taking her
> out on the dance floor where she kept wobbling in her shoes and
> stumbling over her own feet, with her toes turned inward  and losing her
> balance at every other step as she did not know how to follow nor seemed
> to know a single tango step.
> I kept wondering what a big ego boost this must be for those guys, who
> probably looked like God's gift to dance to a woman like that, and they
> got their hands on her too...
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From arborlaw at comcast.net  Wed Jul 23 16:42:27 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:42:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
In-Reply-To: <488796A1.9090506@comcast.net>
References: <BLU119-W5B0D9DA4CC756A55A462C91840@phx.gbl>
	<488796A1.9090506@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <488797B3.40205@comcast.net>

That last paragraph should say "maybe because tango dancers are much 
MORE likely to come into tango as their first dance rather than from 
other ballroom experience where these are more frequently taught."  Sorry--

Carol Shepherd wrote:
> To me "social dancing" is, simply, any partner dance that is not 
> choreographed and/or for competition.
> 
> There are those who understand "social dancing" to customarily imply 
> dancing around with multiple partners in one evening.  For some of 
> those, the intimacy of tango may be too much for more than the one 
> partner they regularly dance with.  And so they may say they do not like 
> to "social dance" or that social dancing to any style of tango is 
> inappropriate.
> 
> Many on here are inappropriately using the word "social" (as in "nuevo 
> is not a social dance") when they really should be using structural 
> terminology and dance etiquette concepts to make these statements, such 
> as traveling dance vs. slot or stationary dance, line of dance errors, 
> and bad floorcraft.  Examples of line of dance errors and bad floorcraft:
> 
> --crossing a traveling line of dance, blocking a traveling line of 
> dance, going too fast or slow or changing abruptly with no warning
> 
> (specifically in tango: stopping your traveling dance to execute several 
> measures of nuevo in place, thereby causing couples behind you to 
> collide like dominos.  Can we stop this PLEASE?)
> 
> --leading your partner into another couple without looking in your 
> 'blind spot,' failing to contract one's dance space to accommodate 
> others on a crowded floor
> 
> It is very common in a small dance floor for a traveling dance to not 
> coexist well with a stationary dance.  Most forms of nuevo are 
> predominantly stationary and milonguero is a traveling dance with a line 
> of dance.  The same structural conflict exists where some dancers are 
> doing quickstep and others are doing lindy hop.  AFAIK there is no good 
> way to deal with this on a very small floor other than the DJ announcing 
> a set of one or the other and trying to make everyone happy some of the 
> time.
> 
> The social convention in a larger dance floor that accommodates both 
> structures, is for the traveling dance to progress around the outside 
> and the stationary dance to be limited to the inside with a safe margin 
> between them.  (Doh!)
> 
> It never ceases to AMAZE me that the non-traveling dancers will plant 
> themselves directly in the line of dance.  They just haven't been told 
> how to behave.
> 
> Any dance is a 'social' dance if the dancers are aware of and courteous 
> to others and obey basic dance etiquette rules.  And any dancer is 
> 'anti-social' in being unaware by selfishly ignoring other dancers and 
> their needs.
> 
> Sorry folks, but it's my experience that tango dancers on average know 
> the least of all dancers in every style I do about standard dance 
> etiquette and floorcraft.  Maybe because tango dancers are much less 
> likely to come into tango as their first dance rather than from other 
> ballroom experience where these are more frequently taught.  But I also 
> think that floorcraft and etiquette are rarely taught in damce.  I 
> myself cannot recall any tango class where the basic concepts of 
> floorcraft and etiquette were presented and practiced.  (As opposed to 
> practicing the structural characteristics such as the 'chairs in the 
> center' line-of-dance type of exercise.)
> 
> 
> David Thorn wrote:
>>>> Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need
>>>> to worry about that pesky walk :-)
>>
>>
>> I know that there is a smiley face at the end of this statement, but 
>> this nevertheless seems to me
>> a rather gratuitously insulting remark, creating more heat than light, 
>> and perhaps reflecting significant
>> ignorance on the part of the author.  I love the pesky walk in close 
>> embrace.  I love the joy of the open, more
>> intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo.  What is the point of 
>> insulting the Nuevo dancers?
>>
>> And while I'm bitching, I often fail to understand the use of the word 
>> "social" in the context of Tango.  To me, social
>> dance is simply that which can be danced socially.  Much of what comes 
>> under attack here as "not social" can be
>> easily danced in a social environment IF there is room on the dance 
>> floor, and IF the lead is good, and IF the follow
>> has the requisite skill and fitness.  But lack of any of these doesn't 
>> make the style "not social", it simply means that
>> the floor is too crowded or that the lead or follow isn't up to his / 
>> her job.
>>
>>
>> Cheers, David
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L at mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz/blog



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Thu Jul 24 13:11:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W27BDCDD1290C5F3B189D1191870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <memo.20080724181123.2400O@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should 
> be, used to help interpret the music.

We've seen countless great video examples e.g. on youtube of real tango 
dancing that is truly from the music.

I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.

The examples of nuevo that most avoid offending the music are those that 
most avoid the music e.g. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RqtiMZZpI .

If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to and 
interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then, please, let 
us all see it.

--
Chris

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Mon Jul 28 12:15:53 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:15:53 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <3eff99210807280903r460ce8acvd48c2bd0cf3c86de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	
	<488DE6CD.9090702@ruby.plala.or.jp>
	<3eff99210807280903r460ce8acvd48c2bd0cf3c86de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488DF0B9.4060904@ruby.plala.or.jp>

The idea is to find an instructor who is able to teach you what you need 
to know. Tango is not really about where you put your legs, the lead 
comes first, the legs follow that.

Niki Papapetrou wrote:
> from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home 
> town because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg 
> here, and then your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily 
> practice technique in  a milonga or in my own living room, without the 
> 'pleasure ' of being manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to 
> get his feet in the right spot, without it even crossing his, or the 
> instructor's, mind that he actually needed to learn how to  LEAD. 
>


From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 12:19:10 2008
From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:19:10 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <488DF0B9.4060904@ruby.plala.or.jp>
References: <96487.87095.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<488DE6CD.9090702@ruby.plala.or.jp>
	<3eff99210807280903r460ce8acvd48c2bd0cf3c86de@mail.gmail.com>
	<488DF0B9.4060904@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <3eff99210807280919v66465630w2f9f10bb4fc147a4@mail.gmail.com>

exactly

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:

> The idea is to find an instructor who is able to teach you what you need to
> know. Tango is not really about where you put your legs, the lead comes
> first, the legs follow that.
>
>
> Niki Papapetrou wrote:
>
>> from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home town
>> because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg here, and then
>> your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily practice technique in  a
>> milonga or in my own living room, without the 'pleasure ' of being
>> manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to get his feet in the right
>> spot, without it even crossing his, or the instructor's, mind that he
>> actually needed to learn how to  LEAD.
>>
>
>


-- 
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki

( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )

From brick at fastpack.com  Mon Jul 28 13:07:26 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:07:26 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Example of Nuevo dancing to the music. Was (no subject).
Message-ID: <ca2c2380807281007g5cf188bdj2573daa4994fdc5e@mail.gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

>>I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.<<

How about this?
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=5719494

( http://tinyurl.com/5vw4fj if that wraps )

It looks pretty musical to me. The dance goes back and forth between
close embrace and "neuvo," so view it till at least a minute before
you tell me it is not "nuevo."

You might also find the "a colgada odyessy" video on that page either
interesting or offensive.

And yes, there are some mistakes. The dances weren't performances per
se, but rather demonstrations of concepts taught in the preceding
workshops.

From bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk  Mon Jul 28 13:15:03 2008
From: bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk (Bruce Stephens)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:15:03 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <626761.84310.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> (Trini y. Sean's
	message of "Mon\, 28 Jul 2008 08\:17\:21 -0700 \(PDT\)")
References: <626761.84310.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87iquqexrc.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk>

"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com> writes:

[...]

> But the newer women still don't go.  They think that because they
> know some steps, they don't need to take the lessons where they can
> really work on their technique.

Maybe they don't need to go to classes/lessons.  Maybe they're already
enjoying dancing.

And, of course, perhaps they perceive that the available
classes/lessons wouldn't be worth their while for whatever reason, so
even if they *want* to learn more, they don't see a
time/cost-efficient way to do so.

[...]


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 13:48:35 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Canadian Tango Film Festival
Message-ID: <160945.14283.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 
  Hi Melina,
   This may be the link you are looking for..  mario
   
  http://www.bluemoon.tangoafficionado.com/
   
   

       

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Mon Jul 28 14:15:00 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:15:00 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Chris - decent Nuevo leads
In-Reply-To: <mailman.607.1217262874.17248.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.607.1217262874.17248.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <488DAA34.11948.14BB7E@flame.2xtreme.net>

>I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.
>If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to and
>interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then, please, let
>us all see it.

Here's a video of a well known Bay Area couple who dance and teach Nuevo as well as 
classical tango. Le gusta?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7250cB392g



From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 18:26:09 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:26:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <87iquqexrc.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <787509.78738.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

You haven't seen some of these women dance.  One was an actual danger on the dance floor with this uncontrollable leg that just had to do a sweep at every turn.  But even the experienced guys (including the pickiest guy in our community) still danced with her because she was young and blond.  Thank goodness she went away for the summer.

But that's not my point in this thread.  My point is that when women have the bodywork and technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada without having been taught the step.  However, getting to that point requires a lot of work, but achieving it can enable discoveries that one thinks of as "nuevo" (as opposed to someone giving you directions to create something).  And if these discoveries occur independently in more than one place, then wouldn't this be a suggestion of an organic technique?  I think these discoveries may have occurred years ago but that exploring these techniques were not encouraged.  In fact, they were probably put down because "so-and-so taught that it this way, so this other way must not be right".  Until someone finally came along and said "this is a valid way of doing such-and-such".

What people think of as "nuevo" isn't really entirely new.  Perhaps we should some up with a term other than "nuevo" like "post-nuevo" (sort of  like modern architecture was in the 1940's and then came post-modern).

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Bruce Stephens <bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Bruce Stephens <bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
> To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:15 PM
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> <patangos at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But the newer women still don't go.  They think
> that because they
> > know some steps, they don't need to take the
> lessons where they can
> > really work on their technique.
> 
> Maybe they don't need to go to classes/lessons.  Maybe
> they're already
> enjoying dancing.
> 
> And, of course, perhaps they perceive that the available
> classes/lessons wouldn't be worth their while for
> whatever reason, so
> even if they *want* to learn more, they don't see a
> time/cost-efficient way to do so.
> 
> [...]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 19:24:21 2008
From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <787509.78738.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <555545.20937.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"My point is that when women have the bodywork and technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada without having been taught the step.? However, getting to that point requires a lot of work"
?
I am / was very sure that this was true regarding cose embrace / apilado.
Now, as I watch people, who have paired off, practice the same "nuevo" / stage /
fantasia "moves" over and over again. I'm not so sure.
?
I never see then practicing "bodywork and technique". And they never seem to 
"practice" these movements with anyone other than "their" partner, or a very?
small subset of people.
?
The problem is, in developing?bodywork and technique, it is almost certain that they 
will encounter colgadas and / or volcadas repeatedly. And, chances are that they will 
do so with the same individual, many, many times.
?
Now, I'm quite a bit less certain?what to think.
?


      

From barbara at tangobar-productions.com  Mon Jul 28 21:46:53 2008
From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:46:53 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Chris - decent Nuevo leads
In-Reply-To: <488DAA34.11948.14BB7E@flame.2xtreme.net>
References: <mailman.607.1217262874.17248.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<488DAA34.11948.14BB7E@flame.2xtreme.net>
Message-ID: <488E768D.7090608@tangobar-productions.com>


Although I am not a fan of nuevo tango, the videos cited are both Homer 
and Christine Ladas of San Francisco, and even this traditionalist old 
lady can tell my fellow Nuevo bashers that they dance quite simply and 
beautifully in line of dance at traditional milongas.



flame at 2xtreme.net wrote:

>>I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.
>>If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to and
>>interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then, please, let
>>us all see it.
>>    
>>
>
>Here's a video of a well known Bay Area couple who dance and teach Nuevo as well as 
>classical tango. Le gusta?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7250cB392g
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
>
>  
>


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 01:21:15 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:21:15 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Message-ID: <2046E898-259F-46AC-AAEE-0925BB71EA16@gmail.com>

 > What people think of as "nuevo" isn't really entirely new. Perhaps  
we should some up with a term other than
 > "nuevo" like "post-nuevo" (sort of like modern architecture was in  
the 1940's and then came post-modern).

They movement vocabulary associated with tango nuevo dancing is not  
really new at all. The main thing that separates what people now are  
calling "nuevo" from what people are calling "traditional" is that  
more things are permitted in nuevo. Dress code, embrace code, and feet  
on the floor code are all subverted in tango nuevo.

As has been mentioned before many times, the main things that are  
transmitted by so-called "tango nuevo" teachers are not so much the  
figures as the teaching methods and approaches to practicing. ( I  
think one of the clearest posts on this ambiguous term called "tango  
nuevo" is by Tom Stermitz : http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg00035.html 
  )

I agree that "tango nuevo" is a misleading name. For a descriptive  
purpose, I think it is more accurate to label  styles according to  
place (e.g., ballroom/salon, street/canyengue, club, suburban/orilla,  
west coast) or according to originator/propagator (Susana Miller,  
Fabian Salas).

To label types of dancing as the traditional and the new tends to be  
reductive and subjective.





From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 01:56:46 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:56:46 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  (no subject)
Message-ID: <8EBE2D74-D2EF-4BE5-BBCB-85CEDCCD6668@gmail.com>

Chrisjj wrote:

> I don't recall one convincing example of nuevo dancing from the music.
Chicho/Eugenia to El Recodo - you might not like it, but it's on the  
music.
And I think most people would agree with calling this couple's dance  
style "tango nuevo".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dZNG5IlvQw

> The examples of nuevo that most avoid offending the music are those  
> that most avoid the music e.g. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RqtiMZZpI 
>  .
But, why do you call this piece "tango nuevo"? I would call it modern  
dance utilizing material from tango. Calling it tango dancing of any  
type is like calling Appalachian Spring folk music. (I'm not saying  
the piece merits comparison to Copland.)

Brigitta Winkler, by the way, is known in the U.S. for teaching on the  
"milonguero style" circuit. So you might as well call it "tango  
milonguero".

> If anyone has a video of David's "decent Nuevo leads who listen to  
> and interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe" then,  
> please, let us all see it.
Really, Chris, I wonder what people think of when they refer to "tango  
nuevo". I get the feeling that in some places dancers are besieged by  
arrogant bands of wild music-ignoring acrobats, and they call them  
"nuevos".





From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 02:14:49 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:14:49 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Example of Nuevo dancing to the music. Was (no subject).
Message-ID: <EECE26B5-476B-4A75-AA9E-F3CC731C1DA8@gmail.com>

Brick wrote (about Homer and Christine's video):
> The dance goes back and forth between close embrace and "neuvo," so  
> view it till at least a minute before you tell me it is not "nuevo."
I don't understand why people use the term "close embrace" as an  
opposite of "tango nuevo".

Supposed proponents of tango nuevo dance in a close embrace as well as  
an open embrace.

Example (Chicho/Juana): http://youtube.com/watch?v=bJEGyw_kRUI

Is opening the embrace what makes something "tango nuevo"?

What about this video of Flaco Dany and Silvina Vals? They open up a  
lot to do turns. Is their dancing "nuevo"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU

What about Pupy Castello -- is he tango nuevo? I guess that means  
"nuevo" was invented a long long time ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2OxyYHZTcUI




From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 29 10:38:01 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
In-Reply-To: <555545.20937.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <919968.26506.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 7/28/08, steve pastor <tang0man2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: steve pastor <tang0man2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
> To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:24 PM
> "My point is that when women have the bodywork and
> technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada
> without having been taught the step.? However, getting to
> that point requires a lot of work"
> ?
> I am / was very sure that this was true regarding cose embrace / apilado.
> Now, as I watch people, who have paired off, practice the same "nuevo" / stage / fantasia "moves" over and over again. I'm not so sure.
> ?
> I never see then practicing "bodywork and technique". And they never seem to "practice" these movements with anyone other than "their" partner, or a very?small subset of people.


I can't generalize about the people who see, who I've never seen.  I can tell you that technique and bodywork are best practiced by oneself, off the dancefloor.  If one wants to make efficient use of one's time, I would say that when you have a partner available, then work on your communication skills and the application of technique.  It's when you're by yourself, which is most of the time, that you work on technique and bodywork.  That's when you can pay attention to you.

However, the relationship between nuevo and bodywork/technique may be a catch-22.  The vocabulary we think of as nuevo (such as the bigger colgada and volcadas) require some athleticism to do well.  They are exaggerations of the smaller movements we can find in salon.  It's in repeating these exaggerations that the average person finds the weaknesses in their bodywork.  Once those weaknesses are found and developed, then you can tell the differences easily.  However, it's difficult to feel that knowledge kinesthetically when it's just a tad different.  Sort of like trying to differentiate different shades of gray when they are not side-by-side on a color chart.  But it's really no different than when you're first learning to do turns.

Trini de Pittsburgh







      


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 29 13:37:04 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango = partners = love
Message-ID: <69781.77367.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK..the recent posts to Tango L have all been really interesting...and informative...etc, etc.
  I'm wondering why there hadn't been such high quality recently? ..is it time for dancers to write? or was it that I was crowding them out?
   
  Anyway, I would like to lower the standard to my own interests..and ask a shocking question.
  Are all performing couples also lovers?? Does anyone know of a performing couple who
  aren't lovers? Is it any of my business?  I think so.
  OK, so you are saying that it's more economic to rent one room and so that is the standard
  for a touring performance...maybe.
  But I'd rather look at the possibility that one has to make love in order to really get it down.
  In order to really mine the extremes in possibilities of the dance.
  Certainly, we all admire the performing couples...I won't mention them but damn it they are all VERY attractive...aren't they?
  Ok.. I have my favorites and I'm sure that you do too...are your's sharing the same bed of passion? 
  ..mine sure are.
  ..who are your's ?
   

       

From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Tue Jul 29 13:42:51 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:42:51 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] new video
Message-ID: <1e29c1e8fc8916e8f92d78e14719d19e@tangokombinat.de>

Dear list members,

I have a new video online on my youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5p9dn_dzg

Enjoy!

Andreas

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Tue Jul 29 15:30:35 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:30:35 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] new video
In-Reply-To: <1e29c1e8fc8916e8f92d78e14719d19e@tangokombinat.de>
References: <1e29c1e8fc8916e8f92d78e14719d19e@tangokombinat.de>
Message-ID: <20080729193035.270030@gmx.net>

Well, Andreas,

you put your message on tango-L (the discussion list), not on tango-A (the announcement list), therefore forgive me to comment on your video:

>From what I see it looks like a very nice embrace, probably very comfortable to the woman / follower. 
But listening to the music and watching the dance I am missing 'the vals' I am hearing [very lovely vals, by the way. great to dance, very round!]. Just to check I switched off the speakers and only watched without having the music: looked like tango but I could not recognize the vals.

But perhaps it's just my misconception, I would love to hear what other listmembers are thinking and feeling.

Regards,
Christian




> Dear list members,
> 
> I have a new video online on my youtube channel:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5p9dn_dzg
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Andreas


.
-- 
***********************************************
       just my personal 50th of an Euro
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





Psssst! Schon das coole Video vom GMX MultiMessenger gesehen?
Der Eine f?r Alle: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/messenger03

From brick at fastpack.com  Tue Jul 29 18:42:42 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:42:42 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Example of Nuevo dancing to the music. Was (no
	subject).
Message-ID: <ca2c2380807291542j15de9d38p675aa3f41f77bfb1@mail.gmail.com>

Joe Grohens wrote:
>>Brick wrote (about Homer and Christine's video):
> The dance goes back and forth between close embrace and "neuvo," so
> view it till at least a minute before you tell me it is not "nuevo."
I don't understand why people use the term "close embrace" as an
opposite of "tango nuevo"
<<

I used the terms because that seem to be the language spoke here. I
don't use the term "nuevo" to describe tango in real life.

I don't really know why people find the need to take sides and rally
under names like "Milongeuro style,"  "Salon Style" or "Nuevo style."
I don't see that as doing anything but fracturing our rather small
community.

As long as a dancer follows the 4 rules I previously posted, it is all
good. Let the music and the partner and the space dictate the dance.

I like Homers "one tango" philosophy.

>From his bio:
"Homer Ladas is currently an inventive enthusiast of the "One Tango"
school which attempts to study, integrate, and balance what's 'new'
with what's 'traditional'. "

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 29 19:02:24 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Homer Ladas
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380807291542j15de9d38p675aa3f41f77bfb1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <340443.2874.qm@web52211.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> >From his bio:
> "Homer Ladas is currently an inventive enthusiast of the "One Tango" school which attempts to study, integrate, and balance what's 'new' with what's 'traditional'. "

I just wanted to comment that Homer is one of those unique dancers who is innovative, yet, when in his presence, he dances so well that I was able to just watch and learn.  That isn't always the case for me, being 6 feet tall, to adapt the techniques of someone who is quite a bit shorter.  What he does, he does with clean precision! 

I even took one of his classes, with my short (obviously) 8-year old daughter and we were able to perform his intricate moves quite easily.  




      

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 19:46:32 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:46:32 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Example of Nuevo dancing to the music. Was (no subject).
Message-ID: <A729C56F-A0EA-40BE-A894-BF4BE0679431@gmail.com>

Brick quotes Homer's bio:
> I like Homers "one tango" philosophy. >From his bio: "Homer Ladas is  
> currently an inventive enthusiast of the "One Tango" school which  
> attempts to study, integrate, and balance what's 'new' with what's  
> 'traditional'. "

I like that too. I also like how he manages to say it without it  
coming across contentious. That's something that Homer's got that a  
lot of others don't. (including me)



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 29 22:08:58 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:08:58 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to tke sides (was nuevo dancing to the music)
Message-ID: <BAY105-W288A6B556A867E48DDB84D977D0@phx.gbl>




Brick wrote: "I don't really know why people find the need to take sides and rallyunder names like "Milongeuro style," "Salon Style" or "Nuevo style."I don't see that as doing anything but fracturing our rather smallcommunity."

IMO there are several important reasons to distinguish tango styles:

1- The styles are quite different, they use different chorography, different technique, they have different purposes.

2- Available space to dance.  Milonguero is very simple and compact, requires little space.  Classical salon tango or Villa Urquiza uses all the known tango moves, uses a close embrace, an open embrace or an elastic embrace, It can adapt to different circumstances of space.  

Nuevo or stage will require more room.

3- There is a pedagogic reason to distinguish the styles.   The instructor should not confuse the beginner tango dancer, bringing itinerant teachers of different style that contradict each other in many respects, mostly in technique.

4- The student should know that exist different tango styles. So that he is not surprised or intolerant when exposed to other forms of the dance.
also to decide what style he wishes to learn.


*Purpose:  Social dancing - You may use milonguero style or Classical Salon (Villa Urquiza) with ease for this purpose.  You will need ore room for Nuevo or stage.   See below Andreas Wichter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5p9dn_dzg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuSty0nX9k&feature=related

He dances a social tango style, not very good for exhibitions.    If the purpose is an exhibition then Villa Urquiza, Stage or Nuevo are more expectacular.

* Technique - The styles differ in technique : Milonguero uses a more limited number of tango moves, they are more compact, small steps, the tango walk is
on two lanes, the foot lands on the sole or the heel. it is very good for social dancing where there is no room to dance. 

Stage, Nuevo, Villa Urquiza have a richer repertoire of moves, they are more expectacular, there is need of more space for its execution.

Classical Tango (Villa Urquiza) has all the available choreographic moves, close and open embrace, may be danced socially or for exhibitions.

The tango walk is on one line, external rotation of the leg for better equilibrium, most dancers will land on the toes, some on the heel, some both ways.

Milonguero leads with the torso, Classical Tango, Stage, Nuevo lead with the torso, the arms and hands, the legs, the feet as necessary to execute all the tango moves.

Nuevo uses Counter body movement to lead embellishments such as boleos and amagues.

* Most people like to go to places where the style they prefer is danced.  They avoid going to places where a different style is danced.

Summary:  There is no need to take sides with respect to tango styles.  Dance the style that is best for you.

Some people only know one style, other know how to dance in different styles, some adjust their dancing to the circumstances and place where they are.

Some mix elements of different styles.

Best regards, Sergio


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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 29 23:21:38 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] new video
Message-ID: <469445.90366.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

It was a very nice dance by Andreas and Anne-C?cile. Very nice. But I like 
my Tangos, Milongas and Vals' to be very different dances. Milonga is fun, 
playful and cheeky while Vals is elegant, sweeping, flowing and?romantic. 
As Tete put it - "when I Vals, I want to fly".
But, nonetheless, Andreas - a beautiful,?interpretation of the Vals. I really
enjoyed it. Well done.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Christian L?then <christian.luethen at gmx.net>
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:30:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] new video
> 
> Well, Andreas,
> 
> you put your message on tango-L (the discussion list), not on tango-A (the 
> announcement list), therefore forgive me to comment on your video:
> 
> >From what I see it looks like a very nice embrace, probably very comfortable to 
> the woman / follower. 
> But listening to the music and watching the dance I am missing 'the vals' I am 
> hearing [very lovely vals, by the way. great to dance, very round!]. Just to 
> check I switched off the speakers and only watched without having the music: 
> looked like tango but I could not recognize the vals.
> 
> But perhaps it's just my misconception, I would love to hear what other 
> listmembers are thinking and feeling.
> 
> Regards,
> Christian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Dear list members,
> > 
> > I have a new video online on my youtube channel:
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5p9dn_dzg
> > 
> > Enjoy!
> > 
> > Andreas
> 
> 
> .
> -- 
> ***********************************************
> ? ? ? just my personal 50th of an Euro
> ***********************************************
> ? ? ? ? ? christian.luethen at gmx.net
> ***********************************************
> How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
> ... as clearly it is ocean!
> ***********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Psssst! Schon das coole Video vom GMX MultiMessenger gesehen?
> Der Eine f?r Alle: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/messenger03
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      



From D2suzie at aol.com  Wed Jul 30 08:08:59 2008
From: D2suzie at aol.com (D2suzie@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:08:59 EDT
Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas near Ocean City Maryland
Message-ID: <d15.2cb213d2.35c1b3db@aol.com>

Does anyone know of any milongas near Ocean City Maryland?  We will be  there 
from August 1 - August 7.  Thanks.
 
Sue



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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 30 09:31:10 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 06:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] new video
In-Reply-To: <469445.90366.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <311516.68960.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

I think a lot of the dance is missing because you don't see the feet, where most of the action is.  Most of the video is of the upper body.  We also don't see how the woman ornaments the dance.  For all we know, he might have been giving her time to play musically, which might give it more of a waltzy feel.  

However, the music itself didn't strike me as a fast "flying" piece.  It struck me as stately and elegant, which this couple certainly conveyed.  My interpretation might include more suspension between movements, but it's hard to tell visually whether this couple was using that or not. So overall, I can appreciate their interpretation.  Well-done.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com>
 Milonga is fun, 
> playful and cheeky while Vals is elegant, sweeping, flowing
> and?romantic. 
 
 
> ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Christian L?then

> > But listening to the music and watching the dance I am
> missing 'the vals' I am 
> > hearing [very lovely vals, by the way. great to dance,
> very round!]. 


      


From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU  Wed Jul 30 11:19:11 2008
From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:19:11 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Archives and Lucy Lynch's whereabouts?
Message-ID: <4890866F.6070204@mit.edu>

A user reported that the Tango-L archives maintained by Lucy Lynch at
the University of Oregon
(http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/index.html) no longer work. I
tried to email her but the email address on the home page of that
archive (llynch at darkwing.uoregon.edu) gets returned as "User Unknown" as
well.

There is an archive at http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/ which
does work, but that is just since May 2006 and Lucy's went back further.
It would be good to be able to restore them, or at least have access to
them to host them elsewhere, so if anyone knows how I might get hold of
Lucy, please do send her contact information to me at
tango-L-owner at mit.edu, and/or forward this message to her.

Thanks,

Shahrukh



From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Wed Jul 30 12:06:40 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:06:40 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] New Video
Message-ID: <0e5b80dc71afd43a09b7f426c8e23572@tangokombinat.de>

Hello Christian, Jack, Trini,

Thank you for your remarks. Maybe this can become a general comparison 
of everybody?s ideas about dancing vals. And thanks for the gracious 
words, all.


Christian wrote:

 >> you put your message on tango-L (the discussion list), not on 
tango-A (the announcement list), therefore forgive me to comment on 
your video:<<


That?s fine, no problem, Christian. Also, there have been numerous 
calls for list members to show how they dance, so consider this my 
contribution.


 >>From what I see it looks like a very nice embrace, probably very 
comfortable to the woman / follower. <<


Thank you. For us, the embrace is the main thing in our dance, so if we 
succeed there, I?m happy enough. :-)


 >>But listening to the music and watching the dance I am missing 'the 
vals' I am hearing [very lovely vals, by the way. great to dance, very 
round!]. Just to check I switched off the speakers and only watched 
without having the music: looked like tango but I could not recognize 
the vals.
But perhaps it's just my misconception, I would love to hear what other 
listmembers are thinking and feeling.<<


I know what you mean. Please read my response to Jack and Trini, in the 
next two posts.


Andreas

http://www.tangokombinat.de/uk


From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Wed Jul 30 12:07:21 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:07:21 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] New Video
Message-ID: <4681b4ffb92282f2a85c7ed25381b6e2@tangokombinat.de>

Hello Jack,

Jack wrote:

 >> It was a very nice dance by Andreas and Anne-C?cile. Very nice. But 
I like
my Tangos, Milongas and Vals' to be very different dances. Milonga is 
fun,
playful and cheeky while Vals is elegant, sweeping, flowing 
and?romantic.
As Tete put it - "when I Vals, I want to fly".<<


I agree in principle, and the valses I remember seeing Tete dancing to 
require exactly this, and Tete certainly is one of the best vals 
dancers. And the youtube vids don?t even do him justice.
But to me, valses are not always alike in this regard. This one is very 
slow and heavy and doesn?t really lend itself all that well to the 
?sweeping, flowing? thing. If I do have a role model for valses like 
this, it is Osvaldo Cartery. Watch him dance vals...very different, yet 
subtle and beautiful.


 >>But, nonetheless, Andreas - a beautiful,?interpretation of the Vals. 
I really
enjoyed it. Well done.<<


Thank you! Much appreciated.


Andreas

http://www.tangokombinat.de/uk

From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Wed Jul 30 12:08:13 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:13 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] New Video
Message-ID: <7c5f2a390b021bac1cd5fa74da355f8c@tangokombinat.de>

Hello,

sorry to bother the list with three postings, but I was being too wordy 
and so I had to break this up into three parts. This is the final one, 
though...


Trini wrote:

 >>  However, the music itself didn't strike me as a fast "flying" 
piece.  It struck me as stately and elegant, which this couple 
certainly conveyed.  My interpretation might include more suspension 
between movements, but it's hard to tell visually whether this couple 
was using that or not. So overall, I can appreciate their 
interpretation.  Well-done.<<


Thank you, Trini. I agree with your assessment of this valses feel.


Some general thoughts:
My idea of dancing vals is, to a large degree, preservation of movement 
and energy throughout the dance (you wanna keep the flow), plus playing 
with rhythm and movement dynamics. Where tango may be dramatic, vals 
tends toward the romantic. But then again, look at some of the 
lyrics...check out ?No The Mires En El Rio? or ?Tengo Mil Novias? for 
the tragic and the wacky end of the scale. Both not all that romantic, 
but then again, it?s Rodriguez...
In a dance this slow the rate of movement is sometimes very slow, but 
if you watch closely you will see that we actually stop moving for more 
than half a second or so (and I like to think we still keep up the 
energy flow there) only two or three times, normally we at least keep 
up a rotation of an axis. I really like dancing slow sometimes, and 
slowing down so much you hardly move creates a very nice 
tension/expectation/anticipation.
Dancing this vals for me was just emphasizing (not embellishing) the 
music?s underlying rhythm (don?t know if I am clear here...), staying 
well-grounded (the music sure is, so I want to reflect it) and 
maintaining flow. This was one of the few times when I perfomed that I 
partly managed to forget the audience and dance for my partner alone, 
so I guess that means you don?t get to see much... at least AC was 
happy afterwards. ;-)


So what do others think about how to dance vals?


Andreas

http://www.tangokombinat.de/uk

From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Wed Jul 30 12:49:29 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:49:29 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] New Video
In-Reply-To: <0e5b80dc71afd43a09b7f426c8e23572@tangokombinat.de>
References: <0e5b80dc71afd43a09b7f426c8e23572@tangokombinat.de>
Message-ID: <20080730164929.17710@gmx.net>

Hoi Andreas!

When I made my original comment I was about sure that - knowing you - you would take my comment the positive way!

> Thank you for your remarks. Maybe this can become a general comparison 
> of everybody?s ideas about dancing vals. 

That was precisely my intend: get some more comments on dancing examples. See what others on the list see & feel - may it be pleasing or not: every new dance counts!!! 

I'd be happy to see more and more 'lurkers' on tango-L to finally get out and comment openly (not only by private-e-mail!). I'd also be happy if I would be able to even read some 'disagree' and not just only 'what a beautiful tango world'. I mean: what pleases me does not necessarily have to please someone else. What I do not like does not necessarily has to be disliked by others. But a discussion about it, from *all* sides, could help everyone of us to develop a better viewing, a better feeling and maybe even a better dancing! 

And just to add on this: sometimes I like one couple's tango, but do not like their milonga. Or anothers couples vals, but not their tango. Or even I might like one of their tangos, but not the other, but again the third. But I would very much like to know what others feel, see, like ... and also dislike! Usually one learns by criticism, not by the ever going on chearleaders.

Hey, and by the way: some days I like my own dancing whereas on other days I am not satisfied with. And even on one evening this could change, maybe due to me, maybe due to a partner (more or less accoustomed, more or less inspiring) ... maybe due to the music, maybe due to the atmosphere, quite often due to the other couples on the floor ... etc.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion,
Christian


.

-- 
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Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 30 13:38:12 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:38:12 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  No need to tke sides (was nuevo dancing to the music)
Message-ID: <BLU119-W240C4C51157E151C4432D7917D0@phx.gbl>


Sergio wrote
>> IMO there are several important reasons to distinguish tango styles

I think that none of us have difficulty acknowledging stylistic differences.

The problem I have is with the bigoted and hateful views that I occasionally
feel are expressed by one stylistic crowd or the other.  I am a retired
(old & gray) close embrace dancer trying to learn some of the cool nuevo stuff.
I'll never be much of a nuevo dancer, but I am nevertheless learning what I can.

Although the list has been relatively civil recently, I have sometimes been terribly
embarrassed by the prejudice coming out of the keyboards of some of my fellow dancers.

Grow up!!  What is that bumper sticker?  More Wag and Less Bark?  Please.

Cheers

D. David Thorn

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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 30 14:49:52 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:49:52 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
Message-ID: <BAY105-W1537F2730EC9B609E62ED9977D0@phx.gbl>



David wrote:

                   "The problem I have is with the bigoted and hateful views that I occasionallyfeel are expressed by one stylistic crowd or the other."

I entirely agree with you that the problem comes with the bigoted and hateful views ....

Over the years  I have noticed that the problem comes from "only" one stylistic crowd  : Those that only dance close embrace miolonguero style.

I have never seen such notes coming from any of the other dancers.

I have to clarify that most of the time I dance Milonguero or Villa Urquiza, I frequently do canyengue, I use some of the Nuevo moves (Volcadas, colgadas, piernadas, soltadas, back boleos, etc) and occasionaly I do an exhibition. 


It would be interesting to know the reason for this hateful prejudice to exist. What do you think?   

1 - They think that there is only one tango, the one that they happen to dance.  The other styles "are not tango'.

2 - They are told by some instructors and repeat, that if you go to Buenos Aires, Milonguero is the only style you can dance.   This is true in many  milongas downtown.

But ...it is obvious that all the other styles exist as proven by the many videos we have seen, the stage dancing that is going on all the time, the many members of this list that dance other styles, etc.

Somebody must be teaching them. They are being taught in some places. The practicas and milongas in those utilize and dance those other styles.  

 Some people go early or very late to the milongas when there is more room to dance, to dance the style that they prefer.  Others organize their own milongas.


3 - They have problems with those that are dancing in their milongas in a different style  than milonguero.  "those people interfere with the line of dance,

disturb the other dancers, they can cause injury with their wide movements.  Well... this is a problem of being a poor dancer, not of a style of tango.

A good dancer, navigates the floor with ease, adjust the length and amplitud of steps and figures to the available space, does not disturbe the other dancers,
does not disrupt the line of dance.

Summary: There is no reason to take sides, there are many styles of Argentine Tango:  Just to name some,  Estilo del Centro (Taught by Daniel Lapadula In the studio and on TV), Canyengue, Stage, Traditional Tango (Villa Urquiza, Milonguero, Tango Elegante as taught by Orlando Paiva, etc, etc.

Dance the way you prefer and leave the others in peace.
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From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Wed Jul 30 16:59:51 2008
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:59:51 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Partners, et al
In-Reply-To: <mailman.791.1217435155.13871.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.791.1217435155.13871.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4890D647.5030708@lavidacondeby.com>

Mario, you are truly amazing.  You have taken your post to a new low.  I 
am sure for this I will be put back on high security status where every 
post of mine is moderate for offending Mario.  No, Mario, not all 
professional dancers are bed partners.  Many are just professional 
couples.  Hey guess what Mario, some of your most favorite dancers are 
even gay, how about that!!  Bet that thought never even crossed your 
mind.  But they are. Men and women.  They don't advertise it, but they are.

From brick at fastpack.com  Wed Jul 30 18:57:19 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:57:19 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
Message-ID: <ca2c2380807301557p4a5abac5tb2958eceb0c3f547@mail.gmail.com>

It seems convenient to me to divide Tango into two basic types based
on the intent and focus of the partners:

1) Social Tango.
In social tango the dancers dance FOR each other. It doesn't really
matter what the dance looks like, what matters is how it feels. They
may be striving for an intimate emotional connection, for a playful
interaction, or something else entirely. But they are dancing FOR each
other. Neither the shape of the embrace, nor the size of the movement
really matters. It is the focus of the dancers. Running into people is
not good FOR your partner, so of course good navigation is part of
this focus.

2) Performance Tango.
In performance tango, the dancers are dancing FOR someone outside the
partnership. They are still dancing WITH one another, but they are
dancing FOR someone else.

I do a lot of other dances, and none of the others present themselves
to me this way. Ballroom, Salsa, Swing, all have performance (or
competitive, which is really the same thing) aspects deeply embedded
in the philosophy of the dance. Good dancers are expected to show off.
It seems to me that many Argentine Tango dancers feel that Performance
Tango belongs on the stage, and Social Tango belongs at the Milonga,
and never the twain should meet.

In my experience, when a "Salon" couple strikes a dramatic, but
obviously uncomfortable pose, many of my social tango friends are
somewhat offended. They feel the same when a "Neuvo" couple is
obviously showing off. I think this stems from the change of focus.

These couples are obviously dancing for the audience, and not for each
other. If only they knew what the "audience" really thought of them.

All IMHO, YMMV.

From martin at waxman.net  Wed Jul 30 19:15:02 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:15:02 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Archives and Lucy Lynch's whereabouts?
In-Reply-To: <4890866F.6070204@mit.edu>
References: <4890866F.6070204@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080730191314.01f42a98@waxman.net>

??? Works for me.
I connected immediately to the Tango-L archives.
No problem.

Marty

At 11:19 AM 7/30/2008, Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator wrote:
>A user reported that the Tango-L archives maintained by Lucy Lynch at
>the University of Oregon
>(http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/index.html) no longer work. I
>tried to email her but the email address on the home page of that
>archive (llynch at darkwing.uoregon.edu) gets returned as "User Unknown" as
>well.
>
>There is an archive at http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/ which
>does work, but that is just since May 2006 and Lucy's went back further.
>It would be good to be able to restore them, or at least have access to
>them to host them elsewhere, so if anyone knows how I might get hold of
>Lucy, please do send her contact information to me at
>tango-L-owner at mit.edu, and/or forward this message to her.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Shahrukh





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From martin at waxman.net  Wed Jul 30 19:45:03 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:45:03 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango-L Archives and Lucy Lynch's whereabouts?
In-Reply-To: <BAY144-W47066F77F822BC18845950997D0@phx.gbl>
References: <4890866F.6070204@mit.edu>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080730191314.01f42a98@waxman.net>
	<BAY144-W47066F77F822BC18845950997D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080730193809.01f54b20@waxman.net>

Years 2000 - 2002 to the present return a server error.
1994 to 2000 seem to be OK.
I contacted the U of Oregon about it -- could be a server problem or 
an archive backup problem.
And, yes, my email to Lucy was returned.  But I think that was 
because of the extra space before the @ sign.
I emailed her again, leaving out the space.
I let you know what happens.

Marty

At 07:30 PM 7/30/2008, you wrote:
>martin,
>
>after you get to the main screen, see if you can go into the current 
>archives. i got to the main screen just fine, but then got a data 
>set error when i tried to look at the archives.
>
>dan
>
>The Tangonista
>Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
>NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music





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From dchester at charter.net  Wed Jul 30 21:01:44 2008
From: dchester at charter.net (David)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:01:44 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] new video
Message-ID: <20080730210144.NSMFM.194012.root@fepweb01>

Personally, I was more disapointed in the camera work than I was in the dance.  The lighting was bad because of the camera angle (shooting at a light source), and on top of that, the feet were left out.

>From what I could see, the dancing was fine.  I just wish I could have seen more of it.

David


------------------------------------------------
> From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen at gmx.net> 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] new video 
> To: tango-l at mit.edu 
> 
> . . .
> 
> But perhaps it's just my misconception, I would love to hear what other 
> listmembers are thinking and feeling. 
> 
> Regards, 
> Christian 


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 30 23:49:21 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:49:21 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W17A173B1BACD95549EDE2977C0@phx.gbl>




Brick says "These couples are obviously dancing for the audience, and not for each other. If only they knew what the "audience" really thought of them".

It could be the wrong audience?  Nobody wants to dance for an audience that cannot appreciate his performance.  Showing off is not well liked .


This is a problem of the particular dancers and not one of the Tango Style. Dancing "out of place" is wrong. 

Most of the time when a couple dances well, and decides to gift the audience with an improvised performance this "gift" is greatly appreciated; the attendants ask the couple to give an exhibition. This happens all the time in Buenos Aires. Then everyone applauds and is very happy.

As a rule it is better to dance the same style that everyone else is doing.  One should not show off.

He adds "Performance Tango. In performance tango, the dancers are dancing FOR someone outside thepartnership. They are still dancing WITH one another, but they are dancing FOR someone else."

If they are performing then they are dancing to please the audience with their art.

But where I think you are wrong is in  assuming that those that dance, traditional tango, canyengue, nuevo, etc, are always, and only, dancing for the audience.

They are not, when they use those tango styles to dance "socially" they dance with the same attributes that the other "milonguero style" dancers so much cherish.

They have good connection, both physical and spiritual, they dance for each  other, as all the other couples in the room do the same (as they are all dancing the same style). They have perfect lead and follow skills and navigate the floor without disturbing anyone.

It happens that their dance is so beautiful that many people take turns to sit and admire the other dancers as well.  

Summary: It is wrong to assume that those that dance traditional (Villa Urquiza) tango, Canyengue, or nuevo "only" dance to perform, "no way", they dance socially as well.  They dance for each other with perfect connection and reciprocal spirituality.

It is also wrong to dance "out of place" where your style is not appreciated. 

The problem is not the tango style, is the poor dancer, the show off, the one that dances out of place.  Beginners should dance at practicas and not at the milongas.

Best regards, Sergio

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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 31 00:18:31 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:18:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
Message-ID: <446814.50792.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hmmm, this might be true in principle, but in my experience, every 
woman who dances wants to look beautiful. I don't think they'd agree 
that ... "It doesn't really matter what the dance looks like,"
?
And isn't it part of the man's job to?help his partner look beautiful 
as well as feel beautiful? Just my opinion.

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Brick Robbins brick at fastpack.com

> In social tango the dancers dance FOR each other. It doesn't really
> matter what the dance looks like, what matters is how it feels. > 


      



From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Thu Jul 31 00:31:36 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:31:36 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380807301557p4a5abac5tb2958eceb0c3f547@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca2c2380807301557p4a5abac5tb2958eceb0c3f547@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48914028.8040205@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Brick Robbins wrote:
> Running into people is
> not good FOR your partner, so of course good navigation is part of
> this focus.
>   
You forgot that it also annoys the other people you run into!
> In my experience, when a "Salon" couple strikes a dramatic, but
> obviously uncomfortable pose, many of my social tango friends are
> somewhat offended. They feel the same when a "Neuvo" couple is
> obviously showing off. I think this stems from the change of focus.
>   
It is not so much the change of focus but mainly, again, that they are 
not alone on the floor and again, instead of going with the flow, they 
are disrupting the line of dance with their posing and thus presenting a 
disturbance for the other dancers. Everybody wants to enjoy dancing with 
their partners and does not want to be thrown out of the mood by some 
couple bumping into them, extending legs into their path and such.



From jpsighe at sighes.com  Thu Jul 31 08:21:36 2008
From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:21:36 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Mystique of the Volcada
Message-ID: <01b501c8f307$fbf24b60$030fa8c0@Desktop1>

 "Enter the mysterious and exciting world of The Volcada. When properly
executed this move inspires beauty. However, just like any other
graceful move in Tango, the Volcada requires structure. Often
invisible to the beginner, with practice this move becomes
indispensable - if one remains mindful of the esthetic of the dance.
Obviously, all the dancers who execute the Volcada don't project the
same kind of mastership in the move. Perhaps this stems from an
incomplete understanding of the move's construction. Let us analyze it."


Read the rest of the article here:
http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol11_july08.html



Tangamente,

Jean-Pierre Sigh?

--------------------------------
TANGO MAGDALENA
580 Grand Ave, Suite # 305
Oakland, CA 94610
Contact: (510) 836 0812
Web site: http://www.tangomagdalena.com

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 31 10:56:43 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:56:43 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W349527DCC776733917178F917C0@phx.gbl>


Brick wrote
> These couples are obviously dancing for the audience, and not for each other.

I think that one important source of the "hateful views" that I earlier lamented is the idea that you (the generic you) 
know what I am thinking.  How do you know?????  How is that obvious?  If what you are saying is that were _you_ 
posing, it would be for an audience, that's OK.  But it seems a little presumptuous of you to say that you know what is 
going on in my head and in my partner's head, and that the pose we might strike is not something just between us. 

Are tango dancers generally so repressed that they can't express their feelings with / to their partners without 
first looking over their shoulders to see who might be watching??? 

Cheers

D. David Thorn

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From donnay at donnay.net  Thu Jul 31 11:32:48 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:32:48 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W1537F2730EC9B609E62ED9977D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W1537F2730EC9B609E62ED9977D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5C332DC271FA48FEBFE34242CFF97B55@gatewaylaptop>

Wait a minute - this list is open to lots of opinions, isn't it? But more than than, isn't
it about making tango better?

I don't think that anyone truly minds open dancing done well and not disturbing others.
The issue is new students who are learning only open, which  creates problems. These 
couples
can't accommodate smaller spaces - they don't know how. Also, I believe learning
open first leaves dancers with to so many bad habits - arm leading, bad posture, looking at
the floor, etc. Those are harder to do in close. A dancer who can do close embrace first
can move easily into open. A dancer who spends too much time in open has to relearn close -
it's a different dance to them. These are my experiences as a teacher, anyway. When a
student comes to me who has not done close before, we have to start over (not pleasant news
to the student). When a student who has primarily done close wants to do open, it's any
easy transition.

And about dancing to show off - have you never danced with a partner who was only 
interested in how he/she looked? I dislike that, and hear lots of others do too.Were you 
doing open or closed? More likely open - which adds to our prejudice.

So we are preaching here to the choir. The people who we should be reaching are the new
dancers, who are not necessarily exposed to close embrace, and who are learning a lot of
patterns. I believe that this threatens to turn Argentine tango into just another
ballroom-type dance. But they are likely not reading  this list.

Of course, in the highly competitive world of tango dance instruction, the flashy Nuevo can
often be an easier sell. But how many times does the teacher explain how to use the move in
line of dance?

Loisa Donnay
Minneapolis


>
> David wrote:
>
>                   "The problem I have is with the bigoted and hateful views that I
> occasionally feel are expressed by one stylistic crowd or the other."
>
> I entirely agree with you that the problem comes with the bigoted and hateful views ....
>
> Over the years  I have noticed that the problem comes from "only" one stylistic crowd  :
> Those that only dance close embrace miolonguero style.
>
> I have never seen such notes coming from any of the other dancers.
> 


From martin at waxman.net  Thu Jul 31 15:00:27 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:00:27 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L]  Fwd: re: Tango-L Archive
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080731145524.01f23680@waxman.net>

This is the response I got from U of Oregon re the archives.
If we can recover the site from their backups, does anyone have a host?
Marty

>Marty,
>Lucy Lynch is no longer affiliated with the University of 
>Oregon.  As such her e-mail address, as noted on the Tango-L Archive 
>website, no longer exists.  As the Tango-L archives were personally 
>maintained by Lucy there is no backup person to refer you to 
>regarding questions about the site.  I will inquire, on your behalf, 
>if there is an alternative e-mail for Lucy and will follow-up with you if so.
>Sincerely,
>Jon K. Miyake
>Information Services
>University of Oregon    voice #:       (541) 346-1635
>                                        (541) 346-5837
>                               Computing Center Rm 225





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From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Thu Jul 31 15:15:43 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:15:43 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Archive
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080731145524.01f23680@waxman.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080731145524.01f23680@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <20080731191543.42440@gmx.net>

Martin,

great initiartive, even if I don't have a solution concerning the netspace/host.

Also very friendly and helpfull person at U of O! 

Thanks!
Christian



> This is the response I got from U of Oregon re the archives.
> If we can recover the site from their backups, does anyone have a host?
> Marty
> 
> >Marty,
> >Lucy Lynch is no longer affiliated with the University of 
> >Oregon.  As such her e-mail address, as noted on the Tango-L Archive 
> >website, no longer exists.  As the Tango-L archives were personally 
> >maintained by Lucy there is no backup person to refer you to 
> >regarding questions about the site.  I will inquire, on your behalf, 
> >if there is an alternative e-mail for Lucy and will follow-up with you if
> so.
> >Sincerely,
> >Jon K. Miyake
> >Information Services
> >University of Oregon    voice #:       (541) 346-1635
> >                                        (541) 346-5837
> >                               Computing Center Rm 225
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
> Database version: 5.10380e
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> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

-- 
***********************************************
       just my personal 50th of an Euro
***********************************************
           christian.luethen at gmx.net
***********************************************
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
***********************************************





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From tangobliss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 31 15:38:48 2008
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:38:48 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Seattle TangoMagic 08 Pix.
Message-ID: <CBE87935-780E-4ADE-8579-56C6513A62C5@gmail.com>

Hi,

For those of you who could not be in Seattle at TangoMagic this year.

I've posted a few pix for you to gander at.

Those of you that are on facebook have already seen these.  These are  
for the NON-FACEBOOK viewers (you mean there's still people out there  
that don't use facebook ?).

Enjoy.

Miles.

PS: No video this year, sorry, and probably not ever again. 
  

From tangobliss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 31 16:39:33 2008
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:39:33 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Seattle TangoMagic 08 Pix. (link included)
Message-ID: <08BEDACF-20AD-4D8A-8780-642746D71DB1@gmail.com>

Hi,

Sorry for not posting the link to the images...

Enjoy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/sets/72157606470624912/

Miles.

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 31 19:24:22 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:24:22 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
Message-ID: <BAY105-W12BE5906D60C893C08EA76977C0@phx.gbl>


I do not think that any style is superior or inferior, I dance milonguero most of the time.  This is my opinion on this subject.

1 - Lois says :  "Of course, in the highly competitive world of tango dance instruction, the flashy Nuevo canoften be an easier sell. But how many times does the teacher explain how to use the move inline of dance?"

Dear Lois, most people know by now that in A. Tango it is essential   to walk around the floor with ease.  The tango walk is probably one of the first things the tango instructor teaches.   Now if you have some teachers that "only" teach figures and do not teach how to navigate the floor, ***blame the teacher, do not blame the tango style***

2 - she adds : " And about dancing to show off - have you never danced with a partner who was only interested in how he/she looked? I dislike that, and hear lots of others do too.Were you doing open or closed? More likely open - which adds to our prejudice."

The "show off" is a problem of the dancer, *** do not blame the tango style...naturally the ofenders use open embrace... then it is very difficult to show off if you only dance Milonguero style.


3 -  and " So we are preaching here to the choir. The people who we should be reaching are the newdancers, who are not necessarily exposed to close embrace, and who are learning a lot ofpatterns."  "The issue is new students who are learning only open, which creates problems. These couplescan't accommodate smaller spaces - they don't know how."

Again a problem with being exposed to the teachings of a bad instructor. Not a problem of the style.

4 -  "Also, I believe learningopen first leaves dancers with to so many bad habits - arm leading, bad posture, looking atthe floor, etc. Those are harder to do in close. A dancer who can do close embrace firstcan move easily into open. A dancer who spends too much time in open has to relearn close -it's a different dance to them. These are my experiences as a teacher, anyway."

"Bad habits" as you call them are result of faulty instruction, not of learning open embrace dancing.

My experience as a student and as a teacher is exactly the opposite to yours: I learned Traditional Tango (Villa Urquiza) first.  The type of tango that it is danced by most well known tango instructors (Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Mingo Pugliese, Todaro, Bravo, Carlos Copello, Diego Di Falco, Nito y Elba, Carlos Copes, etc, etc) . 

Traditional Tango has a close embrace and an open embrace, the greatest number of tango skills, all the tango embellishments and figures,which can be utilized both for social and for stage dancing. It also has the greatest number of leading possibilities, including what you call "bad habits" such as leading with arms and hands.  When you lead complex moves you frequently use hands, or arms, or thighs, or legs, of feet.

So to go from this style to Milonguero is very easy.  On the other hand Milonguero has a very limited number of choreographic moves ( a few walking steps,
back ochos, ocho milonguero, a couple of easy turns, and maybe a sacada) , It  only uses close embrace, leads only with the torso.

It is good for social dancing in crowded milongas.  Not very good for exhibitions. 

So to go from this style to traditional tango is most of the time impossible. Once you learned milonguero first, you are stuck, you will dance milonguero for the rest of your life.

Now the most interesting thing is : Those that dance Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue, never criticize anyone else. 

Those that dance all the styles never criticize anyone but...

The ones that dance close embrace all the time, milonguero, have multiple problems expressed in many forms.   

IMO the problem is caused by poor teaching, showing off, and dancing out of place.

If you dance Traditional tango, Nuevo or Canyengue, go and dance in the proper milonga, or the proper area of a milonga, or at the proper time, otherwise dance like everyone else .  If you are not contented with dancing that way, sit down, enjoy the ambience and wait for later to have more room to dance your style.

Do not humiliate the other dancers showing off, learn how to navigate the floor.

Un abrazo, Sergio


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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Thu Jul 31 21:07:12 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:07:12 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Therapy Conference
Message-ID: <44358D30-DADD-46CD-8810-DB86DECA4011@gmail.com>

Does anyone have any more info (e.g., a link) on the Tango Therapy  
Conference recently held in Rosario, Argentina?

Did anyone on the list attend?

A number of people told me about the following radio feature on PRI  
(Public Radio International) that was aired Wednesday.

Podcast available here: http://www.theworld.org/?q=node/19757

"Psychologists and physical therapists believe learning to tango can  
help people suffering from Alzheimers, Parkinson?s Disease, and  
depression. Richard Reynolds finds out more at the first International  
Conference on Tango Therapy. "

Joe

From larrynla at juno.com  Thu Jul 31 23:17:11 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 03:17:11 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada
Message-ID: <20080731.201711.28505.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

The discussion of the volcada which Jean-Pierre Sighe pointed out 
http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol11_july08.html
totally misrepresents what a volcada is (as well as being confusing in other ways).

Volcada comes from the verb meaning to tip over, or pull off balance. It is an extreme lean. That is all. Not an extreme lean + a wide front boleo ending in a cruzada, as people might think because the three are often put together.

Dancers can simply do a volcada and then recover to a normal embrace. Or they can hold the carpa (literally tent, an upside-down V stance) for a few beats.  Or do a drag. Or a carousel. Or several other actions. Including the popular wide front boleo ending in a cross.

there are lots of variations on the woman's front boleo. One is to make it an amague, a kick straight back instead of to the side wrapping around the woman's knee. Nor need it need to end in a cruzada, as the article suggests. The front boleo could lead into a normal boleo, followed by another front boleo. And finally into the woman stepping straight back with the free foot instead of a cross in front.

If anybody cares to talk more about volcadas, we might talk about how to lead into it. But this message is long enough already.

Larry de Los Angeles

PS The volcada is not a nuevo tango move. It was old in 1989 when I started tango, long before anyone heard the term nuevo tango used to label a way of dancing.


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From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 31 23:52:16 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
Message-ID: <67561.46360.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

David, 
Very well said. I often strike a little pose with my partners, especially at the end 
of the dance, or maybe even during a dance. But it's got absolutely nothing to do 
with ...?"showing off to an audience." I just do it to have little fun with my partner. 
But, from the tone of many of the messages on this list, it's beginning to sound 
like 'having fun' is another thing that's not really acceptable in tango - at least, to 
the tango police.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
>?But it seems a little 
> presumptuous of you to say that you know what is 
> going on in my head and in my partner's head, and that the pose we might strike 
> is not something just between us. 
> 



      



From tanguero at tanguero.com  Thu Jul 31 13:40:13 2008
From: tanguero at tanguero.com (Tanguero)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:40:13 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Copa Airlines
Message-ID: <CCB20E2ED7AF46DC8DF4A3AAD76AA182@loreenarbus.local>

Hola!
 
I've recently discovered a much lower cost airline that flies from the U.S. (Miami, L.A., N.Y., Orlando and D.C.) to/from Buenos Aires (via Panama City). Their fares are half (at Economy level, and around a quarter to a third less for Business) of the quotes for Delta, American, United and Aerolineas!!! And, like, Delta, they are dog-friendly (so I can have an alternative to Delta for my little Peckie to be in the cabin with me - - no cargo, ever, ever for him!). Additionally, Copa (which is Panamanian) is a 'sister' airline to Continental and mileage is transferable. J
 
COPA AIRLINES - - www.copaair.com
 
I ran a random quote to give everyone an idea on their prices and schedules (9/4-9/18). But of course, every trip will be different. 
 
From:                        New York, JFK
To:                            Buenos Aires, EZE
Depart:                      NY @ 6:17am
Arrive Stop-over:         Panama City @ 10:32am
Depart Stop-over:        Panama City @ 11:56am
Arrive:                       Buenos Aires @ 9:03pm
Economy:                     $338.00
Flexible Elite:                $526.00
Executive:                    $1,324.00
 
From:                        Buenos Aires, EZE
To:                            New York, JFK
Depart:                      Buenos Aires @ 12:05pm
Arrive Stop-over:         Panama City @ 5:30pm
Depart Stop-over:        Panama City @ 8:22pm
Arrive:                       New York @ 2:27am
Economy:                     $338.00
Flexible Elite:                $2,329.00
Executive:                    $2,673.00
 
Taxes and surcharges might run up to almost $500.00 on the more expensive flights, but obvious less on Economy.
 
So what's the difference between Economy.and everything else?
 
Their website provides the same great info that most major carriers do today:
 
Allows you to print your boarding pass at home. 
Lists airfare specials they're having. 
Gives extensive details on baggage allowance so you know exactly how much you bring and where you can bring it as allowances for different countries and airlines vary.  
OnePass Frequent Flyer program details.

Happy flying!
 
Loreen