From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 11:00:09 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:00:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV6F18C9C00548D069CAC5DAE060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <808727.19735.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:
 
> A
> large minority to tango seem in the main want to do
> fantasia so how do I
> satisfy their needs while getting enough dances of my own?

In what context?  As a teacher, deejay, organizer, or fellow dancer?

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From tango_partner_ba at yahoo.com.ar  Mon Dec  1 12:31:52 2008
From: tango_partner_ba at yahoo.com.ar (Tango Partners in Buenos Aires)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:31:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Bye Luciano Mares
Message-ID: <214646.52508.qm@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Good Bye Luciano Mares 
? 
Unfortunately, I have to inform you all that our closest friend Luciano Mares (41 y.o.) passed away this morning in Buenos Aires (at Sanatorio Anchorena). He had had a heart attack on Saturday November 21st. 
? 
We are already missing him a lot. 
? 
Julio Corazza.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
?Busc? desde tu celular!

Yahoo! oneSEARCH ahora est? en Claro

http://ar.mobile.yahoo.com/onesearch

From tango.society at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 13:03:18 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:03:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <20081130.094735.15501.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081130.094735.15501.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:47 AM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
> I see in this and other tango forums a near-hysterical obsession with nuevo
> tango and its perceived threat to "real authentic tango" - which usually means
> "tango the way I do it" but justified often by claiming their way is how its
> done in the tango Mecca of Buenos Aires.  In the 20 years I've been obsessed
> with tango I've seen the same hysteria twice before in tango.  Both times it
> blew over only to be replaced by yet another thing to be alarmed about, this
> time nuevo.
>
> For that matter I've seen similar alarms in other fields, starting with swing ...
>

It does not matter if there have been controversies about what is
authentic in swing or salsa or even lambada. The issue here is
authenticity in tango. The situation is as simple as this. Nuevo
probably accounts for less than 5% of social tango dancing in Buenos
Aires and it is practiced in only a few places (primarily Villa
Malcolm and Practica X) and these (mostly) practicas are heavily
populated by foreigners. On the other hand, about 95% or more of
social tango dancing in Buenos Aires (over 100 milongas per week) is
tango de salon danced in a close embrace.

In the US, nuevo and fantasia are the dominant forms of tango in most
tango communities. There are some tango communities where it is rare
to find someone dancing tango de salon (i.e., some variety of tango in
close embrace as danced in Buenos Aires). There is a discrepancy here.

I find it very interesting that on this discussion list and others
there are always arguments that someone in Buenos Aires was spotted
dancing in an open embrace, or decreasing nuevo movements to fit a
smaller space. It is also noteworthy that the Loch Ness monster has
been sighted several times in Scotland, but that doesn't mean it's a
dominant species it its ecosystem. And then there are the constant
claims that nuevo is justifiable on the grounds that it represents our
tango future (and, of course, the US is ahead of Argentina in knowing
what future tango will have), whereas it quite possibly represents
some evolutionary experiment for which we have no knowledge of what
it's future may be.

It is relevant to note that TODAY in Buenos Aires Tango de Salon
(tango danced in some form of close embrace) is by far the most common
form of social tango. That the social tango scenes in the US and
Europe and parts of Asia are so different from Buenos Aires is the
result of biased cultural transmission. The primary causes of this are
unrepresentative exportation (sampling error) of tango and
differential success in establishment (for the biologists: akin to
genetic drift and differential replication). The tango instructors
from Argentina teaching in the US represent the sampling error in
teaching primarily nuevo and fantasia, explicitly or implicitly
represented as social tango, which it is not in Buenos Aires. Their
presence and success is due to its cultural acceptability in the US,
where a 'Dancing with the Stars' mentality of learning to dance being
the acquisition of visible dance patterns flourishes. The driving
force is economic. Tango is a commodity to sell and the Argentine
instructors sell nuevo and fantasia step patterns because there is a
market of consumers with dollars (or euros or pounds or yen) in their
hands willing to pay for something that fits cultural expectations.
Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant  in a marketplace where
consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate
representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron

From patangos at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 16:40:13 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:40:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <BAY102-DAV9F4C70A3BBA3F968F2B95AE010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <276177.10213.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Fellow dancer of course.
> 

I don't quite understand why you might want to assume responsibility for someone else's dance.  But in any case, the fantasia lovers can simply adjust their schedule to meet the requirements on the dance floor.  If they want to do fantasia, then they should be limiting it to the early or late times at the milonga when the place is spacious.  It's incorrect for them to assume that they should be free to dance to fantasia whenever they feel like it, such as during the most crowded times on the dance floor.  Tango is a social dance, and social means having to consider other people.

If fantasia-lovers are messing up the dance floor, then, as a fellow dancer, tell the promoter and have him/her deal with it. Or you can choose to tell the dancers yourself.  The latter isn't as problematic as it may sound.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From alex at tangofuego.us  Mon Dec  1 19:09:45 2008
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:09:45 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Luciano Mares
Message-ID: <E1L7Ipv-0004GG-MK@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I just heard that my close friend, Luciano Mares, died on November 21 in
Buenos Aires. He was 41 years old. Does anyone have any details on what
happened - beyond the fact that he apparently had a fatal heart attack?

Here's a link to a post on my blog with photos and video...
http://alextangofuego.blogspot.com/2008/12/obit-my-close-friend-luciano-mare
s-has.html 

He was a good friend, a good man. I will miss him.


From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Tue Dec  2 00:21:27 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:21:27 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <870259.28790.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <870259.28790.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CB2254F5B87F2D-4B4-869@WEBMAIL-DG02.sim.aol.com>

A friend of mine is going to San Francisco on business tomorrow.  I 
know it's short notice, but I told her I'd check to see where she might 
be able to tango.......I'll forward mail that folks send me, to her....

thanks
barbra


Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!


From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Tue Dec  2 00:37:41 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:37:41 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Buffalo NY is alive and well.....
In-Reply-To: <460231.28718.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <460231.28718.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CB22573AA215E3-4B4-8C0@WEBMAIL-DG02.sim.aol.com>


......if anyone is traveling to Buffalo, I wanted to let you know that 
tango here is alive and thriving.   I host a free milonga on the first 
Monday of each month, and for the second month in a row, despite the 
cold and bad weather, more than 50 people were there, including some 
visitors from Rochester.  My milonga is free, but another dancer, 
Travis, has milongas on the second and fourth Fridays of each month 
although there is a small cost.  He also has a monthly practica - so if 
you are visiting the area, please get in touch...there's a lot of tango 
here....

Barbra

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 02:29:11 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:29:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <888801.2063.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society at gmail.com> wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron
_______________________________________________

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit that I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely ignorant consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what you want them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango in the US is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one thing is probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N. Americans trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music because I like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity" validation. I have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all sorts of wierd alternative music, because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food to eat, or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If someone is rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation (or by preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more considerate of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on them. 

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/   



      


From clif at clifdavis.com  Tue Dec  2 02:53:47 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:53:47 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <888801.2063.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com>
	<888801.2063.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007401c95453$252fd400$6f8f7c00$@com>

Perhaps if one is in a bar, drinking an adult beverage, (or not), talking with others, maybe they are also drinking an adult beverage, maybe not, and music that appears to be tango oriented, and one finds someone who feels the same way, then perhaps, just perhaps, that is cultural validity enough. It's a bar dance, meant to be danced by people in bars who want to share a moment in the lost world of music and dance. No rules, no judgments, just music and dancing. What steps are done, who knows, who cares. I have often been asked, "what was that step you did back there..".. all I can say is I have no idea. I just do what I feel and let my heart guide my feet to do what my ears hear. It's a bar dance.... meant to be danced in bars, or the street or where ever the feeling hits to consenting people. 

Clif, the simpleton.

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:29 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society at gmail.com> wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where consumers are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation of the cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron
_______________________________________________

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit that I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely ignorant consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what you want them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango in the US is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one thing is probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N. Americans trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music because I like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity" validation. I have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all sorts of wierd alternative music, because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food to eat, or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If someone is rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation (or by preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more considerate of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on them. 

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/   



      

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 05:26:34 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 02:26:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <007401c95453$252fd400$6f8f7c00$@com>
Message-ID: <307196.86106.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Trini, here.  It appears to me that underlying the acceptance of certain forms of tango is this feeling that people are too stupid or lazy to want to do better forms of tango.  No rules or judgements.  I don't believe that.  I believe that if people are informed, then they can make decisions that are right for them.  However, it would be wrong to also tell them "hey, that's good tango" when it isn't.  I also believe that people are able to put a value on their time and their hobbies and that they can be somewhat realistic about their dance if they are informed.  

I feel sorry for those who are mislead.  Because they are not really given a choice and they are automatically limited by others in the level of dancing they can reach.  It's being given A CHOICE that's important.  Leaving people ignorant is not giving them a choice.

When I'm dealing with a "problem" person, in some way I convey to them that I'd love for them to surprise me or prove me wrong.  Sometimes they do to their delight, as well as, mine.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 07:55:06 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 04:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <671123.62180.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society at gmail.com> wrote:

The tango instructors from Argentina teaching in the US represent the sampling error in teaching primarily nuevo and fantasia, explicitly or
> implicitly represented as social tango, which it is not in Buenos
> Aires. ... The driving force is economic. Tango is a commodity to sell and the Argentine instructors sell nuevo and fantasia step patterns because
> there is a market of consumers with dollars (or euros or pounds or
> yen) in their hands willing to pay for something that fits cultural
> expectations.
> 
> Ron


I think you're correct, Ron.  My experience in working with salon teachers new to our community is that they tend to offer workshops with nuevo elements.  They seem a bit surprised when I eschew the nuevo classes for more basic steps or more technique-oriented classes.   And they seem quite happy about it.  The young American teachers on the circuit tend to make that same assumption, too, though I suspect that is mostly friends asking friends to teach.  I wish these elegant salon teachers would have more faith in the style that they do.  

Trini de Pittsburgh






      

From buffmilonguera at aol.com  Tue Dec  2 12:27:52 2008
From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 12:27:52 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo
In-Reply-To: <007401c95453$252fd400$6f8f7c00$@com>
References: <cff24c340812011003s1121886fr58d87dd5b44a1047@mail.gmail.com><888801.2063.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<007401c95453$252fd400$6f8f7c00$@com>
Message-ID: <8CB22BA7057A2D5-1F8-16C@WEBMAIL-DG02.sim.aol.com>

i tend to agree with Clif, but (and I don' think he is saying this) it 
doesn't mean anything goes.  I danced with a young man last night who 
prides himself on "never having a lesson in my life.  I just do what I 
feel."  Not only does that mean a truly awful dance, it is also 
insulting.  I put work into dancing well (or as well as I can), because 
I want my partner to enjoy the dance as much as I expect to.  There is 
a grammar to tango - conventions, principles, etc. - if you don't 
bother to learn it, you are saying that it's not worth it to you to 
learn the "language" I am using, because it's about you "doing what you 
feel" and not about sharing the experience with me.   On the other 
hand, grammar alone does not make a language...., I have had partners 
who string together all kinds of tricks and kicks - while it can be fun 
and sometimes that's what I want to do -  it can be tough to make that 
"tango connection" when you're launching ganchos galore, wrapping your 
leg around my waist (or vice versa), etc....... Without at least the 
attempt to create that sought-after connection, it just isn't tango.  I 
am not saying that these things should never be done, just that they 
work best added judiciously to a warm embrace, a confident walk, and 
musicality - which are the three things I associate with tango of any 
variety, and the only three things I actually do expect from 
a partner 
(lead or follow).

barbra

Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? 
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and 
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go 
to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango 
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango.  Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: Clif Davis <clif at clifdavis.com>
To: 'Tango-L' <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 2:53 am
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo










Perhaps if one is in a bar, drinking an adult beverage, (or not), 
talking with
others, maybe they are also drinking an adult beverage, maybe not, and 
music
that appears to be tango oriented, and one finds someone who feels the 
same way,
then perhaps, just perhaps, that is cultural validity enough. It's a 
bar dance,
meant to be danced by people in bars who want to share a moment in the 
lost
world of music and dance. No rules, no judgments, just music and 
dancing. What
steps are done, who knows, who cares. I have often been asked, "what 
was that
step you did back there..".. all I can say is I have no idea. I just do 
what I
feel and let my heart guide my feet to do what my ears hear. It's a bar
dance.... meant to be danced in bars, or the street or where ever the 
feeling
hits to consent
ing people.

Clif, the simpleton.

-----Original Message-----
 From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On 
Behalf Of
Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:29 PM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Tango Society of Central Illinois 
<tango.society at gmail.com>
wrote:

Cultural validity of the product is irrelevant in a marketplace where 
consumers
are largely ignorant and indifferent regarding accurate representation 
of the
cultural art form they are acquiring.

Ron
_______________________________________________

Sean here,

I suspect I could be labled an avid tango consumer. Yet I have to admit 
that
I've never gone shopping for a "cultural art form". Maybe the largely 
ignorant
consumers are smarter than you think. They buy what they like, not what 
you want
them to like. (Or need tham to like to improve your market share?)

Very few American tango dancers are likely to become Porten~os. Tango 
in the US
is not and never will be the same as tango in Bs. As. But at least one 
thing is
probably similar. I suspect thare are as few Porten~os as there are N. 
Americans
trying to buy a "cultural art form".

I dance a rhythmic close embrace style of tango to golden age music 
because I
like it; not because I need some form of 3rd party "authenticity" 
validation. I
have friends (I think?) who dance nuevo to all s
orts of wierd 
alternative music,
because they like it. I don't tell them what clothes to wear, what food 
to eat,
or what car to drive. Why would I tell them what style to dance? If 
someone is
rude or interferes with other dancers, whether through poor navigation 
(or by
preaching authenticity ;) I might intervene and ask them to be more 
considerate
of their fellows. But I'm not going to try and impose my preferences on 
them.

Sean

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society  Our Mission: To make 
Argentine
Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!  
http://patangos.home.comcast.net/






_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l







From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 14:31:01 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:31:01 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>

About Petroleo's dancing....

Charles Roque said:
> [Tango Salon] is stilled danced very much like Virulazo and Petroleo  
> and many of the great ones did in that era.... "

David Thorn responded by citing links to some pages of Rick McGarrey's  
commentary on the video clip of Petroleo dancing and commenting on them.
> Interesting.
> http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/3petroleo.htm http://tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/11petroleofinal.htm
> Is this how we should all look? Hunched over with bent legs? I'm not  
> intending any disrespect,  because, as you all probably know, I am  
> one of those "nearly anything goes dancers." But I do  imagine that  
> a number of regular posters to this list would find much to  
> criticize about this style if it were to appear in their milonga  
> today.
I first saw this clip of Petroleo on a video tape collection that  
Michelangel Zotto produced called, I think, "Perfumes of Tango". It  
also had some archival home video footage of Fino, Virulazo, and  
Todaro dancing with his daughter.

Once after a lesson with Mingo Pugliese, I asked him about this  
dancing of Petroleo on the tape. I described the dancing (I didn't  
have the tape with me), and I demonstrated the movements he was  
making, with the sideways crawl and the dragging of his foot. And the  
hunched over posture. Mingo said that, yes, he knew the video clip I  
was talking about. He was very curious to know how I had managed to  
acquire it. He was surprised I had seen it. I told him it was on  
Zotto's tape, which he was familiar with. I then asked Mingo, "Is this  
really how Petroleo danced?" It seemed to me completely opposite to  
the modern style that, for example, Mingo teaches, and which Mingo  
attributes to some extent to innovations of Petroleo and his cohort.

Mingo said that the clip was showing, not how Petroleo danced, but how  
they used to dance in the old days, _before_ the developments (read  
improvements) that Petroleo and his cohort brought into the tango.  
Petroleo was demonstrating this primitive tango to some people, and  
someone taped him.

This claim of Mingo's is the opposite of Rick McGarrey's conjecture,  
on the pages that David Thorn references, that the video shows  
"Petroleo's style". I have always intended to write to Rick about what  
I was told by Mingo, but I never took the time.

Mingo and Petroleo were part of the same crowd of dancers. Rick, if  
you are reading this, you might compare notes on Petroleo with Mingo  
someday.

Joe Grohens



From vytis at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  2 14:39:57 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:39:57 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>
References: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV37D57593000B70407AB4CAE000@phx.gbl>

So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this all
happen?



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Joe Grohens
Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 6:31 AM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 18:30:12 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:30:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Classic Ricardo Vidort
Message-ID: <290695.82539.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Q80F3efeA&eurl=http
It dosen't get more sophisitcated than this nor more creative imo
and he was no spring chicken here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Q80F3efeA&eurl=http


      

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 20:21:17 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:21:17 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango Pedantics
Message-ID: <3097E2A6-B229-4C5E-B725-BC59EAE6763B@gmail.com>

Vince said:
> So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this  
> all happen?

That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself  
thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely  
someone worth researching.

See:

- http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp

- http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm

He danced from 1928-1988.

I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the  
1940s, but I don't know really know the dates.

I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the  
moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a  
performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a  
produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica,  
where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come  
from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send  
me the link I will be grateful.)

Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't  
know.

In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who  
said that (paraphrasing) "everything we dance today was started by  
Petroleo." The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a  
regional tango they are talking about.




From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Dec  2 20:36:01 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:36:01 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <3097E2A6-B229-4C5E-B725-BC59EAE6763B@gmail.com>
References: <3097E2A6-B229-4C5E-B725-BC59EAE6763B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20081202182851.01b78e80@earthnet.net>

If you really want to know about Petroleo and his contribution to 
tango, talk to Mingo Pugliese the next time you are in BsAs.  He and 
Esther have carried his legacy through the decades.  (444 Cochabamba 
was a legendary place for many years, where Mingo had his amazing 
practica).  The cross for the woman and the turns as we know them 
9with sacadas and entradas) owe much to Petroleo for their existence.

Vince, why don't you go and study the Tango-L archives?  You might 
really enjoy the posts and get many answers to frequently asked questions.:)

Best,

Nina


At 06:21 PM 12/2/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Vince said:
> > So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this
> > all happen?
>
>That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself
>thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely
>someone worth researching.
>
>See:
>
>- http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp
>
>- http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
>
>He danced from 1928-1988.
>
>I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the
>1940s, but I don't know really know the dates.
>
>I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the
>moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a
>performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a
>produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica,
>where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come
>from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send
>me the link I will be grateful.)
>
>Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't
>know.
>
>In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who
>said that (paraphrasing) "everything we dance today was started by
>Petroleo." The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a
>regional tango they are talking about.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Wed Dec  3 09:05:12 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:05:12 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
In-Reply-To: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>
References: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49369218.2020806@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Joe Grohens wrote:
> About Petroleo's dancing....
>
>   
>> Is this how we should all look? Hunched over with bent legs? 
yup. LOL ; )

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 11:46:21 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:46:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
References: <42F43591-10D0-4EC8-8A70-A85F80329F8C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <573881.96301.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

> From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
> 
> Mingo said that the clip was showing, not how Petroleo danced, but how? 
> they used to dance in the old days, _before_ the developments (read? 
> improvements) that Petroleo and his cohort brought into the tango.? 
> Petroleo was demonstrating this primitive tango to some people, and? 
> someone taped him.
> 

Thanks Joe; it's amazing what you can find out if you talk to the right 
people. And this illustrates the fact that you shouldn't judge someone's 
dancing solely on the basis of a single, unauthorised video. Especially
if you're going to critique it on a popular website, or on Tango-L for that
matter.

Jack


      



From gerlebacher at fsu.edu  Tue Dec  2 07:46:58 2008
From: gerlebacher at fsu.edu (Gordon Erlebacher)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:46:58 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Music Signature
Message-ID: <49352E42.3050908@fsu.edu>

Hi,

I have been updating my iTunes list, and sometimes come across a song
without
a title, or author or orchestra. Yet, I wish to fill in the blanks. That
got me
thinking: it would be nice to have a tool that would analyze a piece of
music,
and provide some kind of signature characteristic (up to 50 numbers that
would
provide some sort of identification of the piece: this would be built
from the
waveform itself, and would contain beat, length of different structural
components,
etc.). Different users would run their music through this tool and
upload the information
to the eng.tango.info database. Then, to fill the details of an unkown
composition,
I'd run the tool on this piece of music, upload the identification
signature to the
database, and search for the music.

What do you think of this idea? Do such tools exist? Does anybody have an
interest?

   Thanks,

    Gordon


From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 14:52:55 2008
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:52:55 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Music Signature
In-Reply-To: <49352E42.3050908@fsu.edu>
References: <49352E42.3050908@fsu.edu>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0812031152j4a7feb6cm446021f536eb4650@mail.gmail.com>

> Do such tools exist?

http://www.midomi.com/
http://www.namemytune.com/

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 14:14:24 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:14:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?
Message-ID: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi, the topic of music suddenly gave me the bright idea
to ask if anyone would care to send me a file(s) of tango music??
It would be a great favor and much appreciated.? M.
I have some CD's of my own but having noticed the care
in which most Milongas are put together, there must be 
oodles of great CD collections out there...I'd love to have
a few.? thks
?


      

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 14:42:40 2008
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:42:40 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?
In-Reply-To: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0812041142o6578d929s58812fcef764356@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.mandragoratango.com/archives/2008/05/70_of_the_most.php is
your friend

From dancetango at oaklodge.com  Thu Dec  4 16:49:26 2008
From: dancetango at oaklodge.com (dancetango@oaklodge.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentina Radio Station
Message-ID: <000701c9565a$2e40bdd0$8ac23970$@com>

I'm learning Latin America Spanish and am trying to find a good current
affairs, news radio station to listen to on line.

 

Any suggestions please ? 


From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Thu Dec  4 17:03:00 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:03:00 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentina Radio Station
In-Reply-To: <000701c9565a$2e40bdd0$8ac23970$@com>
References: <000701c9565a$2e40bdd0$8ac23970$@com>
Message-ID: <20081204220300.141710@gmx.net>

Just combine tango music and argentinian 'castellano' talking:
La 2x4 = www.la2x4.com.ar

But do not be frustrated when their weather report is on and they are currently having 30 degrees Celsius while it's around freezing 0 degrees Celsius at your place! :-)

Christian


> I'm learning Latin America Spanish and am trying to find a good current
> affairs, news radio station to listen to on line.
> 
>  
> 
> Any suggestions please ? 


-- 



.

Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 17:51:30 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:51:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?
References: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <740102.52502.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You probably already know these, but just in case you don't:

zivals.com has large selection of CDs for sale and is a reliable shipper.
www.todotango.com has huge selection of free music available for listening on line and/or for downloading.

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

________________________________
From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 2:14:24 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?

Hi, the topic of music suddenly gave me the bright idea
to ask if anyone would care to send me a file(s) of tango music??
It would be a great favor and much appreciated.  M.
I have some CD's of my own but having noticed the care
in which most Milongas are put together, there must be 
oodles of great CD collections out there...I'd love to have
a few.  thks

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 18:23:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:23:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Argentina Radio Station
Message-ID: <497048.20423.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Listening to a BsAs news station is a good idea...
Here's my favorite news channel:
http://www.tn.com.ar/
?
Here's my favorite Tango channel:
http://www.podsonoro.com/podcast/78/tango-city-tour
?
It's not only what you listen to...it's how you listen.
Try reading the last few posts here for a strategy:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homeimmersion/
(read:)?"Ok here's the task...."?
by yours truly


      

From ems at alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Dec  5 04:51:23 2008
From: ems at alcatel-lucent.com (Edwin Spector)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:51:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Music Signature
Message-ID: <4938F99B.1080206@alcatel-lucent.com>

Another couple that I only learned about yesterday:

http://members.lycos.nl/catchytune/search.html (Correctly identified El 
Choclo)

http://www.melodyhound.com/

As tango music is a little 'specialised' these fine tools may need 
teaching (where possible). Of course, anyone on this list would 
recognise Desde El Alma in an instant.

Edwin.
------

-- 
This message is confidential and may contain privileged information. If 
you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for 
delivery of the message to them), you may not copy or deliver this 
message to anyone or take any action in reliance on it. If you have 
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soon as possible. Alcatel-Lucent does not accept any liability for any 
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message. Please carry out virus and other such checks as you consider 
appropriate.

Alcatel-Lucent Telecom Limited, Registered Office: Christchurch Way, 
Greenwich, London SE10 0AG.
Registered in England & Wales number 02650571

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 13:18:06 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:18:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
Message-ID: <680161.92953.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk
Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?
I cringed as I opened the video but was pleasantly suprised
by a more?integrated dance-like approach to the fare.
I particularly liked the single axis turn (29sec. in) that
wasn't even mentioned and the fact that the movements
seem more organic in that they are growing out of the dance.
Anyway, I see it that the Nuevo craze is pushing the 
milongueros to stretch their envelope a little and that is not
a bad thing.? I hate ganchos but the rest looks like it could work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk


      

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 18:55:47 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:55:47 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L]  obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
Message-ID: <BFD19946-FF36-4AB9-BC2C-7412400388FE@gmail.com>


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BZkS4FWiSk
> Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?
Hi Mario -

As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT tango. I believe that  
videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l.

:-)

Joe

From clif at clifdavis.com  Fri Dec  5 20:45:42 2008
From: clif at clifdavis.com (Clif Davis)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:45:42 +0800
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
In-Reply-To: <BFD19946-FF36-4AB9-BC2C-7412400388FE@gmail.com>
References: <BFD19946-FF36-4AB9-BC2C-7412400388FE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005101c95744$5c1f2f30$145d8d90$@com>

" As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT tango. I believe that
videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l."

The Elite have spoken, and thus, it is so.
Clif


From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Dec  5 22:14:53 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 03:14:53 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
Message-ID: <20081205.191453.29696.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Mario wrote -----> Oscar Casas teaching ganchos and leg wraps?

Joe Grohens wrote -----> As has been amply explained, this stuff is NOT 
tango. I believe that videos like this should be posted on nuevo-l.

Au contraire.  Almost all of the nuevo tango moves were invented by the 
milongueros long ago.  Look at some of the old black-and-white videos 
on the Web.  You'll see lots of volcadas, for instance, invented before 
the oldest nuevo dancers were even born. The only supposdedly nuevo 
movement that I believe is new is the colgada, and that's simply a 
parada out of an ocho that lets the half turn continue into three-
quarter, full, or even into several turns.

The sacada and boleo are very old movements.  They were around at least 
in the 1940s, because one of the TodoTango.com interviews with a 
contemporary of Porteleo (Carlos Alberto Estevez) mentions that he was 
famous for working out how to add them to giros.

You'll also see some movements that no one today has copied, even nuevo 
or show dancers.  El Cachafaz and Rodolfo Cieri, for instance, can be 
seen in the following videos lifting their left legs and seemingly 
kicking their partners on her butt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQOp9is5ik

You will also see some of the famous milongueros breaking the rules 
that many consider correct.  For instance, Petroleo was known for 
getting so excited by the music that he raced around the floor on his 
toes, dragging his poor partner along beside him rather than keeping 
her in front.  (That was partly the fault of the partner, who should 
have leaned into him more.)

Only recently have tango performances been done by trained professional 
dancers.  Before them shows were done by the milongueros and their 
partners.  Virulazo (Jorge Mart?n Orcaizaguirre) in a TodoTango 
interview told about being a pro in tango shows in the 1950s.  Pepito 
Avellaneda (Jos? Domingo Monteleone) in another TodoTango interview 
tells a similar story about a later time, when he becoming so popular 
that people from Europe would pay his travel expenses and his fee to 
have him perform and teach.

http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/virulazo.asp
http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/pavellaneda.asp

In shows the milongueros put their partners at a distance so they could 
do and lead fancy moves.  And they did fancy moves they would not do,
nor let anyone else do, on a social dance floor.  As is true of ? 
thoughtful ? nuevo tango dancers.


Larry de Los Angeles



____________________________________________________________
Domain Registration - Click Here
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbuwwbDTJtAkMfn4ULB6ngqeS3lhUFVWkIUzjCnRKc6ifk5ea/


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 22:17:03 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?
References: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ebb7980c0812041142o6578d929s58812fcef764356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <396314.50355.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Thanks for this. I must admit I'm a total duffer when it comes to computers 
but even I managed to download the '70 Most Danced Tangos'

Is this legal? I mean, I've spent a small fortune buying CDs on-line and now
I get 70 great tracks for free. Just doesn't seem right.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk at gmail.com>
> 
> http://www.mandragoratango.com/archives/2008/05/70_of_the_most.php is
> your friend
> 


      


From politas at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 23:21:01 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 15:21:01 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango music files..? anyone?
In-Reply-To: <396314.50355.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <230321.74121.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<ebb7980c0812041142o6578d929s58812fcef764356@mail.gmail.com>
	<396314.50355.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4939FDAD.2030708@gmail.com>

Jack Dylan wrote:
> Thanks for this. I must admit I'm a total duffer when it comes to computers 
> but even I managed to download the '70 Most Danced Tangos'
> 
> Is this legal? I mean, I've spent a small fortune buying CDs on-line and now
> I get 70 great tracks for free. Just doesn't seem right.

Is it legal?  Probably not, though I'm not sure what the copyright 
expiry laws are in Argentina. Throughout much of the world, the current 
law for the copyright on the composition is life of the artist plus 70 
years, which would make it very likely to still be current for most 
Tango music. The copyright on the performance, on the other hand, may be 
expired for recordings from the early 50's and before, depending on 
whether Argentina uses US- or UK-style copyright on music performances.

Can any of our Argentinian regulars find out what Argentina's copyright 
law currently says?

Is it immoral? That's a much tougher question. Partly, for me, it comes 
down to a question of where the money for those CDs you bought goes. How 
many surviving composers and performing artists are there, and are they 
actually getting the royalties? Or have their rights been long since 
bought up by an international record label?

And then of course, there is the question of whether copyright is a fair 
remuneration system at all.

Myk,
in Canberra

From DanTangoPier at aol.com  Sat Dec  6 10:04:05 2008
From: DanTangoPier at aol.com (DanTangoPier@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:04:05 EST
Subject: [Tango-L]  djing with vinyl records video
Message-ID: <c0c.4e15f9c1.366bee65@aol.com>

For anyone who is interested,
   I've just posted a video on youtube about djing with vinyl  records. Both 
traditional and alternative. There are also some quick images of  social 
dancers at Cellspace, SFTX (San francisco Tango Exchange) and the Late  Shift 
Milonga. I even attempt some Hip-hop style live mixing of Piazzolla  with "Godzilla 
Breaks"
 
Here's the link:
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnNK1lRTyiY_ 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnNK1lRTyiY) 
 
Peace,
Daniel
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 23:05:41 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:05:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
References: <20081205.191453.29696.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <552734.79596.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,

I've had at least 2 instructors teach me the 'butt kick', both times for Milonga.
One of them even included a lady's 'butt kick' in response to the man's. 

Jack



> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> You'll also see some movements that no one today has copied, even nuevo 
> or show dancers.? El Cachafaz and Rodolfo Cieri, for instance, can be 
> seen in the following videos lifting their left legs and seemingly 
> kicking their partners on her butt!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQOp9is5ik
> 



      



From lydabuschan at att.net  Sun Dec  7 06:41:13 2008
From: lydabuschan at att.net (lydabuschan@att.net)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 11:41:13 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Change Address
Message-ID: <120720081141.17601.493BB6590005F688000044C122193122529B0A02D29B9B0EBF020E080C9C9A0D0E0B9704@att.net>

Please change my address from lydabuschan at att.net to lydabuschan at gmail.com 
Thank you, 
Lyda Buschan

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 05:11:38 2008
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
In-Reply-To: <552734.79596.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <20081205.191453.29696.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>
	<552734.79596.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0812080211r3c0bbdbcqa08f696ec03d06d3@mail.gmail.com>

What's the Spanish name for the 'butt kick' move?

Sergey

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 05:33:44 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:33:44 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?
In-Reply-To: <ebb7980c0812080211r3c0bbdbcqa08f696ec03d06d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081205.191453.29696.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>	<552734.79596.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<ebb7980c0812080211r3c0bbdbcqa08f696ec03d06d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV8D412340B424600BBB86EAEFD0@phx.gbl>

patear el culo?

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergey Kazachenko
Sent: Monday, 8 December 2008 9:12 PM
To: Jack Dylan
Cc: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] obsession with nuevo - a remedy?

What's the Spanish name for the 'butt kick' move?

Sergey
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From larrynla at juno.com  Sun Dec  7 23:05:39 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:05:39 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango  the Religion
Message-ID: <20081207.200539.15848.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com>

Why does the Argentine tango spawn such passionate controversies?  
Heel versus toe.  Close versus elastic embrace.  Nuevo versus 
traditional.  And dozens of other controversies.

All dance genres spawn passionate differences.  I've seen them in 
swing, ballroom, and Latin dances.  But tango's debates seem even 
hotter than the others.  Why?

Part of it comes from the fact that tango is a folkdance and so 
has no official organization that specifies exactly what is and 
is not correct.  However, this does not guarantee a strict 
definition; tradition can supply that as well as academies.  An 
example of such strictness is the rumba-like Cuban danzon, which 
begins with a (usually) 16-measure stroll-around then continues 
in a specific form.

Another reason is the basic rhythm, a steady medium-tempo walking 
pace, and the matching basic step, a simple walk.  These two 
traits have many consequences, some obvious and some quite 
subtle.

One important one is that beginning to dance tango is very easy 
and quick.  Just embrace your partner and walk around the room to 
the music.  That is it.  No books or videos or teachers needed.  
This makes the tango the perfect 15- to 30-minute ice-breaker at 
dance parties, needing a teacher only long enough to guide party-
goers through the ice-breaker.

Another consequence of this simplicity, ironically, is that it 
leads to tango being the most challenging of all the social 
dances.  Take just rhythm, for instance.  All of us who can walk 
learn early to change rhythms in the middle of a walk.  We may 
take two or several quick steps to catch up to companions who 
have outpaced us.  We may do those steps in double-, triple-, or 
even greater time to our friends' slow steps.  So too in tango.

Which leads to other complexities.  In tango we (almost) never 
abandon the embrace.  If the leader does quick steps, he has to 
decide whether he wants his partner to keep time with him or keep 
to the basic rhythm.  If the first choice, he must firm up his 
embrace so that she will know to match him.  If the second, he 
must loosen his embrace just enough so she will know to stay with 
the default rhythm.  But though his embrace becomes looser it 
must not cross the boundary into sloppy, a distinction difficult 
to judge and harder to realize.

Another aspect of tango is the complexity of the music.  Many 
tango beginners think of "the king of rhythm" Juan D'Arienzo as 
leading his orchestra with an unvarying rhythm and a heavy beat.  
Yet he was one of the first who experimented with changing tempos 
within a piece of music.

Some of the most popular tango orchestras from the Golden Age of 
Tango might switch which instruments supplied the rhythm and the 
melody lines, using the "soprano" instruments to express the 
rhythm and bass instruments for the melody.  Or they might soften 
the rhythm instruments enough where dancers had to infer the 
beats of the rhythm rather than hear them.  Or they might have 
several layers of instruments, not just the usual ones: rhythm, 
melody, and lyrics (which could be "sung" by instruments as well 
as by the voice).

As the Golden Age progressed and music-makers and audiences grew 
more sophisticated tango music increasingly graduated from 
rhythmic to rhapsodic (less formal) music.  This allows dancers 
many ways to interpret the music differently, suitable to the 
mood and the skill of one's partners and the reason for the dance 
such as pleasure, celebration, or remembrance of someone or 
something lost.

Another irony of tango is that sophisticated dancers may return 
again and again to the utter basics of the dance (and the music), 
each time better appreciating the subtleties underlying the 
simple.  Such a dancer was famed milonguero Puppy Castello, who 
is supposed to have said "Figures are easy; walking is hard."

Another important facet of tango is that it has a long history of 
experimentation.  Current dancers think of "tango nuevo" as 
unusual, yet it is only the latest wave of continuous evolution 
pushed by the more creative milongueros and their partners.
______________________________________________________
If tango continuously evolves why so many hotly argued 
controversies?  The very nature of tango invites improvisation in 
each dance, where the same couple might dance to the same piece 
of recorded music in the same evening in very different ways.  
This nature also invites each dancer over the years to create 
their own style (and sometimes styles), tailoring the style(s) to 
their own desires and abilities.

Because they created it, and their style coincides so closely to 
their unique soul, each dancer identifies their style with 
themselves with religious intensity.  Every time someone suggests 
they change some aspect of their style it seems as if they are 
being attacked.  In seeming self-preservation they often counter-
attack.  Sometimes their return attack is very sophisticated.  
Other times they resort to the old, old argument-to-authority ? 
"This is the way they do it in Argentina!"

And over time the verbal violence escalates, widening the gaps 
between people who in their hearts may be very much the same.


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



____________________________________________________________
Sleep with security. Protect your family with a home security system today.
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From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:13:10 2008
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:13:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango -- not a religion... just a blank canvas
	revealing the truth about the audience.
Message-ID: <914968.94780.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Larry in response to your question..." Why does the Argentine tango spawn such passionate controversies" Your reasons are all endogenous to the art form in itself... I argue that while all your points are well taken... the primary reason for the controversies reside on the audience themselves... lets look at the writing and discourse for those participating in such controversies... are there any similarities in discourse, wording and strategies of argumentation? 

The passionate controversies in this list reveals more about the participants (outspoken, self-righteous, partially-educated (mostly in western institutions), well-traveled, "know it all" folks) than the art form in itself.

Amaury 



      

From pdtango at bigpond.net.au  Mon Dec  8 17:58:15 2008
From: pdtango at bigpond.net.au (Patio De Tango)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:58:15 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in Paris
Message-ID: <003501c95988$76020d00$62062700$@net.au>

Hello, Which tango schools in Paris teach close embrace Tango (chest
to chest - not  'v')
Merci




From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:59:40 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:59:40 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango the Religion
Message-ID: <BLU119-W142835FE1C429FAA0BE51C91FD0@phx.gbl>


I too have puzzled over this religious fervor.  If one looks for example at Lindy Hop, another 
street dance with no ruling body, it passed through the "style wars" (Savoy vs. Hollywood vs. West 
Coast Swing vs. ..) in a matter of several years.  Many of the dancers have preferences, and some 
of the Westies will say that the Lindy Hoppers are too bouncy and the Lindy Hoppers will say that 
the Westies dance like they have a pole up their b&tt. However, many of the best swing dancers can 
do it all and enjoy it all, and nearly all swing dancers are accepting of one another in a way that 
I don't see among some of the tango dancers, especially some of those on this list. 

I agree with Amaury that it says far more about the defenders of truth and justice than it does about the dance itself.


David
_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 14:50:27 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:50:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango the icebreaker??? NOT
Message-ID: <65020.87718.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I enjoyed LA Larry's post except for the following paragraph:
""One important one is that beginning to dance tango is very easy 
and quick.? Just embrace your partner and walk around the room to 
the music.? That is it.? No books or videos or teachers needed.? 
This makes the tango the perfect 15- to 30-minute ice-breaker at 
dance parties, needing a teacher only long enough to guide party-
goers through the ice-breaker.""
This concept shocked me...I would stress the exact opposite
That just getting around the room in a relaxed, comfortable manner
...will take forever to learn! I'm exaggerating but it isn't that far from the truth.
Let's just say that it will take you several months if you stick at it and concentrate.
I go to Milongas and time and again I berate myself for having asked someone to
dance whom I didn't know and didn't closely? observe how she dances, beforehand.
.Dancing around the room with someone who sways side to side and has no
center of balance is pure TORTURE to me..what am I going to do? Hold her up?
Restrict her sideways movements? ....It's my fault for asking a stranger to dance.
?So, how is it the ideal 'icebreaker'?? It sure as hell is NOT the ideal ice breaker!
Of course if you just walk around the room in open embrace and talk to each other
all the while, while ignoring the music...then, it could be a decent icebreaker ..I guess..duh
Maybe my problem is that I like the closed embrace, perhaps we are talking oranges?




      

From tango.society at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 15:01:54 2008
From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:01:54 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango the Religion
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W142835FE1C429FAA0BE51C91FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU119-W142835FE1C429FAA0BE51C91FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cff24c340812091201n63e911dcmd750f1e4a4cb98b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:59 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I too have puzzled over this religious fervor.  If one looks for example at Lindy Hop, another
> street dance with no ruling body, it passed through the "style wars" (Savoy vs. Hollywood vs. West
> Coast Swing vs. ..) in a matter of several years.


A 'milonga' is a place or event where tango social dancing occurs. The
origin of the tango and the milonga are in Buenos Aires. The terms
derive their meaning from the culture of their origin. Within the
milongas of Buenos Aires there is a form of tango typically called
'tango de salon', which has some variations, but also has
characteristics in common which differentiate it from other forms or
derivatives of tango de salon such as tango fantasia and nuevo. Common
characteristics of tango de salon are a close embrace, observing the a
line-of-dance, and keeping feet close to the floor. Within Buenos
Aires milongas, a particular kind of music is played for dancing
tango, which consists of almost entirely recorded tango music from
approximately 1930-1955 from about a dozen different tango orchestras.

Those outside Argentina who accurately follow the tango cultural
traditions of manner of dancing and music played at milongas are not
religious zealots. They are just people who are trying to duplicate as
best as is possible in a foreign country the cultural traditions of an
Argentine dance they love. We would like to have a place to dance
tango where we can have an environment of dancing to classic tango
music and codes of behavior where people do not create navigational
hazards on the floor.

Why are we who try to maintain the cultural traditions of tango so
outraged at times?

There may be different reasons for different people, but there are
some common causes of our frustration.

Probably the greatest source of frustration is the inability to
replicate the atmosphere of a Buenos Aires milonga because people who
come to milongas do not respect the line of dance and create other
navigational hazards. Some would say that it is not nuevo or fantasia
that creates navigational hazards, it is people who create hazards.
While this is true to some degree, it reminds me of the argument that
'guns do not kill people; people kill people', so don't outlaw guns. I
guess one could then argue that if nuevo were not widely available to
the tango dancing public, then only outlaws would have nuevo, but I
regret to say the analogy doesn't work. On the other hand, if you take
the tools of nuevo and fantasia away from a tango dancer, you greatly
decrease the threats of collision and near collision on the milonga
dance floor.

Another objection we have to the nuevo-fantasia tango kidnapping
coalition, is that these exhibition forms of tango have hijacked the
terms 'tango' and 'milonga' to subvert for their own purposes. A place
where people dance nuevo or fantasia socially, sometimes even to
non-tango music, is not a 'milonga', Even calling it an 'alternative
milonga' is implying that it has characteristics of a milonga, which
is misleading. Advertising dance courses that teach nuevo-fantasia as
'Argentine tango' is also misleading, unless one specifically states
that these versions or derivatives of tango are designed for
exhibition and are not danced socially in the milongas of Buenos
Aires. To my knowledge, this information has never been provided.
Instead, either by silence or by direct statement, nuevo-fantasia is
represented as social tango.

Because nuevo-fantasia dancing fits the cultural expectations of North
American, European, and Asian dancers as to what constitutes social
dancing (i.e., memorization of sequences, audience directed
conspicuous movements), this transformation of tango, this 'tango for
export' usually receives a better reception in non-Argentine cultures
than does the Tango de Salon of Buenos Aires. Thus, in most tango
communities outside Argentina, nuevo-fantasia is the predominant, if
not exclusive form of tango. As a result, in most 'milongas' outside
Argentina, Tango de Salon is rare and an hospitable environment for it
is not provided. Thus, there is rarely a tango social dancing venue
outside Argentina for which it is justifiable to call it a 'milonga',
yet pages upon pages of psuedo-milongas are advertised throughout the
northern hemisphere.

So, you can call us zealots or say we are intolerant and even
undemocratic or even 'tango fascists'; however, all we are trying to
do is dance Tango de Salon in a Milonga. How absurdly Argentine.

If the nuevo-fantasia coalition were truly democratic, it would
respect the rights of the minority. If it were interested in truth in
advertising, it would refrain from advertising its instruction as
'Argentine tango' and its social dancing events as 'milongas'.

Ron

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:16:50 2008
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:16:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] no religion -- reply to Ron
Message-ID: <669849.43050.qm@web62004.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Ron,

Your lengthy posting reinforces my point.  There are so many assumptions in your message that I feel discouraged as i am writing these few lines.  It suffice to say that your ideas affirms a single view of what constitutes to be an Argentine and a tango dancer. Such ideas seems to come from an outsider's view and reflect a position of dominance (it does not matter if you have been to Argentine a 1,000 times..  your ideas are still filtered by your experiences). 


The most dangerous part of your behavior is that you really do seems convinced that your construct of what count as being Argentine and a dancer is the "right" one and can be so simply reduced to a few lines in an email.

Amaury

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Tango Society of Central Illinois
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:02 PM
To: tango-l
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango the Religion

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:59 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I too have puzzled over this religious fervor.  If one looks for example at Lindy Hop, another
> street dance with no ruling body, it passed through the "style wars" (Savoy vs. Hollywood vs. West
> Coast Swing vs. ..) in a matter of several years.


A 'milonga' is a place or event where tango social dancing occurs. The
origin of the tango and the milonga are in Buenos Aires. The terms
derive their meaning from the culture of their origin. Within the



      

From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Tue Dec  9 18:59:32 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:59:32 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L]  no religion -- reply to Ron
Message-ID: <d2178256668854e94c022ff9270a449c@tangokombinat.de>

Dear Amaury,

After reading this post and your previous one, and comparing them to 
the one Ron contributed to the subject, I have a few observations.
Your first post contained a lot of vagueness relevant to the subject 
only in a peripheral sense.
Ron's posting was clearly structured, clearly formulated (with proper 
sentences which actually make sense) and possessed of internal logic. 
It presented a number of points which can be easily examined and 
therefore discussed.
Which is something you, in your posting, obviously refuse to do. 
Instead you simply dismiss it completely without even bothering to 
engage with its substance. The little bit of content that you manage to 
convey is exceedingly vague and frankly wrong in terms of how it 
relates to the actual content of Ron's posting. No counter-views can be 
made to your post because it doesn't contain anything that can actually 
be answered in a meaningful way.
Why am I bothering to even write this?
Simply because I am fed up with people moaning about the zealots but 
never actually offering viable and well-presented counter-arguments. I 
always enjoy reading dissenting views if and when these are actually 
thought out. Your posts were not. Please try again.

Andreas


Amaury wrote:

Ron,

Your lengthy posting reinforces my point.  There are so many 
assumptions in your message that I feel discouraged as i am writing 
these few lines.  It suffice to say that your ideas affirms a single 
view of what constitutes to be an Argentine and a tango dancer. Such 
ideas seems to come from an outsider's view and reflect a position of 
dominance (it does not matter if you have been to Argentine a 1,000 
times..  your ideas are still filtered by your experiences).


The most dangerous part of your behavior is that you really do seems 
convinced that your construct of what count as being Argentine and a 
dancer is the "right" one and can be so simply reduced to a few lines 
in an email.

Amaury

From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 21:59:40 2008
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:59:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] no religion -- Andreas and the age of reason ::yawn::
Message-ID: <663177.52672.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Andreas ::yawn::

I will only engage with content that I deem worth discussing.  Your commentary while poised to potentially cause a flame war is not worth a reply.  Interestingly enough you also seems to fit neatly in the category I defined in my first email ... hum... coincidence maybe. You may want open your eyes, re-read my posting and try seeing things a little less linearly.

If my words do not make sense to you... than my friend that is because we (you and I) live and very likely dance in different worlds.  Interestingly enough I have seen Ron dancing ... his dance matches his conversation style.  I am sure I would find your dancing as boring, linear and rational as your comments.

Lets take this thread off the list please.  Any other comments kindly address to my private email... I am sure you can do that...yes?

Amaury


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Andreas Wichter
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:00 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] no religion -- reply to Ron

Dear Amaury,

After reading this post and your previous one, and comparing them to 
the one Ron contributed to the subject, I have a few observations.
Your first post contained a lot of vagueness relevant to the subject 
only in a peripheral sense.



      

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Tue Dec  9 23:00:06 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:00:06 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] the truth about the audience. Amaury de Siqueira
Message-ID: <493ECE46.11294.1600D0@flame.2xtreme.net>

Amaury, this is a brilliant observation! 

> The passionate controversies in this list reveals more
> about the participants (outspoken, self-righteous,
> partially-educated (mostly in western institutions),
> well-traveled, "know it all" folks) than the art form
> in itself.


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 03:57:50 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:57:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] the truth about the audience. Amaury de Siqueira
References: <493ECE46.11294.1600D0@flame.2xtreme.net>
Message-ID: <419867.21924.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

The original question from Larry was:

"Why does the Argentine tango spawn such passionate controversies?"

If Amaury's answer is correct and that the controversies reveal more about the participants than about the dance, does that mean the question can be re-phrased to:

"Why does the Argentine tango attract this type of participant?"

Jack



> From: "flame at 2xtreme.net" <flame at 2xtreme.net>
> 
> Amaury, this is a brilliant observation! 
> 
> > The passionate controversies in this list reveals more
> > about the participants (outspoken, self-righteous,
> > partially-educated (mostly in western institutions),
> > well-traveled, "know it all" folks) than the art form
> > in itself.
> 


      


From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 07:50:07 2008
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] no religion -- Jack's observation.
Message-ID: <843384.55586.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

BINGO!!!!!!!! 

Now that makes for a veeeeeeery interesting conversation... off line of course and over a good glass of wine, beer, tea or whatever drink we fancy :-)))))


Amaury

The original question from Larry was:

"Why does the Argentine tango spawn such passionate controversies?"

If Amaury's answer is correct and that the controversies reveal more about the participants than about the dance, does that mean the question can be re-phrased to:

"Why does the Argentine tango attract this type of participant?"

Jack



      

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Wed Dec 10 14:15:21 2008
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:15:21 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] There is nothing nuevo under the sun.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1035.1228929942.27435.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1035.1228929942.27435.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD51F@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

 
Defining the term "Nuevo tango" is essentially a meaningless exercise.
The only important thing to ask is, are they dancing tango well or not.
By dancing tango, I mean tango music. Of course, dancing in tango
elements as a base of movement and style to non-tango music, is fun, and
i do it, but it is not 'tango", in my opinion. Tango, primero, is the
music. Then, tango, the dance, has certain characteristics that enhance
the emotion expressed in the music, the embrace being the most
important, the communication of lead and follow, the improvisation. the
attitude, the elegance, and the line of dance in the ronda. Tango also
has an inherent structure in that there are only three steps, the open
step, the front cross step, the back cross step, and the order of these
steps in turns to the right and left as default modes. This was a
natural evolution from the asymmetrical nature of the embrace, closed on
one side, more open on the other. What the "nuevo" maestros did fifteen
or twenty years ago was to show how an understanding of the structural
elements leads to infinite leadable improvisation possibilities.
Everything else in tango dance is evolved from this structure. This
sounds rigid, and of course you can change the structure if you make
that clear in your lead. The structure is merely the alphabet you use to
improvise and create poetry in motion with a partner. 
The best tango choreographies still retain the visual impact of
improvisation, to be interesting to the tango audience the movements
should appear to be "leadable" or be able to be duplicated on the dance
floor if one has the skills. Throughout tango's history, there were
always innovators pushing the boundaries of what was accepted by the
majority. Tango originated as a dance of the people, working class
people, not in some stone castle dance academy. There were no rules, no
ballroom type standards to dogmatically adhere to. It is an art form,
and like all art forms, is constantly evolving. There were always
dancers who imitate what they see on stage or in the milongas, and
experiment with it, exaggerate movements. Some experiments work and
influence the culture, some do not and are eventually discarded. As just
one example, the "modern" colgada is essentially an exaggeration of a
very old passing-over step, elongated into a spin, or two, or 200.
Through evolution of the art form some elements naturally are more
artistic or aesthetically pleasing than others. Some movements are more
elegant than others. Elegance is in the eye of the beholder. (I, for
one, am happy to see the near extinction of the kitschy shoe shine pants
wipe). When many people see something as elegant, it becomes more
desirable. And when that happens, those who have the most elegance, or
"art" will attract the most commercial attention and imitation. That is
the way the world works. Of course, we are each free to dance however we
wish, there are no tango police. If you are performing solo, do whatever
the heck you want, swing from the ceiling on ropes like monkeys to
Piazzola if you like and people are willing to pay to see you. But, in a
social setting, tango as a unique culture, as a lifestyle, really
shines, we must accommodate all and with a minimum of accidents and
crashes, the dancing should be proportionate to the space available, the
line of dance, your partner, and the music. This gives the culture its
charm. There is resistance to change in any art form. But an art form
either evolves or calcifies and dies. Tango is a living art form. It is
not preserved in a museum under a glass. There will be always people
experimenting with other dance form elements and bringing them into
tango. I used to fear this will dilute the tango to the point it is
unrecognizable. But I have faith that the essence of the tango is so
strong and unique and precious that eventually it is rediscovered and
returned to, as a wellspring of sustenance and inspiration again and
again. I observe that even the most radical trapeze artist young dancers
still want to know how to dance in a conservative, close, quiet, elegant
manner on the dance floor at some point in the night, with a special
partner. So their tango evolves in accordance with the seasons of their
life, and their emotional experiences, and this is where tango is
unique, for every emotion can be expressed in it, and we each have our
own individual expression of personality that is available to us in the
tango. And,as connecting with another human being on a deep level is
such a fundamental human need, the essence of the tango will continue to
attract us. 


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:58:56 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:58:56 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] There is nothing nuevo under the sun.
In-Reply-To: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD51F@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
References: <mailman.1035.1228929942.27435.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD51F@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W2125736B4CF30F137674AFA9FB0@phx.gbl>


If you see a couple dancing on YouTube, and let's suppose they are in close embrace, clearly well-connected with synchronous, smooth movements, dancing with elegant, upright posture, doing what we recognize as "tango steps", but you can't hear the music they're dancing to, and someone asked you what dance they were doing, would you not, regardless of the silence, answer that they were dancing tango? And you're going to try to convince me that if now you hear the music, and it happens to be modern music of some kind, that all of a sudden this makes it Not tango? Sounds absurd to me.

I love traditional tango music. There's no question in my mind that the typical rhythms and cadences of the music are responsible for the evolution of the familiar patterns and pauses that we use in dancing tango. But ultimately tango is about two people being together. While the music is important, "It's the connection ..." 

IMO

         J



_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 17:15:56 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:15:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Close Embrace in ?
Message-ID: <581526.56299.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, Which tango schools in Paris teach close embrace Tango (chest
to chest - not? 'v')
Merci

The above quote has me wondering...since all Tango embraces are asymmetrical:
("..the asymmetrical nature of the embrace, closed on
one side, more open on the other.")
I was originaly taught chest to chest when in my first close embrace class.? You know
the exercise where the couple fold their arms behind them and only make contact with
their chests?..well, Im currently questioning the utility of such an exercise. Is it to get
the lean? Is it to show that we can connect that way? Or is it an important part of this
mythical chest to chest embrace?? I say mythical because I'm beginning to wonder if
it exists on the dance floor.
The best close embrace experience I've had was when the woman placed her left breast
between my two. I don't know if this is the legendary "V" embrace but we danced a Milonga
song to die for..perfect communication coming up from our lower torsos thru the chest
connection. .. I have gone back to trying the mythical chest/chest embrace only to find
it more and more restricting....am I barking up the wrong tree? Would readers please
share their experience and understanding of the distinctions of the close embrace?? thanks


      

From tobias_conradi at yahoo.de  Wed Dec 10 17:45:56 2008
From: tobias_conradi at yahoo.de (Mr tobias conradi)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:45:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tango-L] eng.tango.info/2008-12-31 - new year events
Message-ID: <412991.41379.qm@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

wiki.tango.info allows organisers to announce one time tango events (repeated eventsare not supported yet)

I use this system for Berlin, where ca. 95% of the organisers announce special events via the wiki. See e.g.

http://berlin.tango.info/2008-12 December events for Berlin.

http://eng.tango.info now displays the events from the wiki if you go to a page for a single day.

E.g.
http://eng.tango.info/2008-12-31


If you are an organiser and like to announce a new years eve event - the event can be on the list too.

http://wiki.tango.info/calendar/?action=addevent&dt=2008-12-31

To edit in the wiki you need http://wiki.tango.info/mul/create_account

Best regards
Tobias
 --
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany

http://eng.tango.info http://festivals.tango.info
http://reliquias.tango.info http://gmap.tango.info
http://info.tango.info



      


From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 21:30:43 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:30:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
Message-ID: <103489.34592.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mario,

Yes, the lady's?left?breast between your two is the position for the "V" embrace 
and this is by far the most popular embrace used in the milongas of?Buenos Aires. 
But there are a growing number of teachers, who often promote their classes as 
'Milonguero Style', who teach a different embrace with full nipples to nipples contact. 
Yes, this is much more restrictive but it provides a much closer and more intimate 
connection. My advice to you, as a relative beginner,?would be to take every 
opportunity to learn both styles. Eventually your own personal style will emerge. 
You'll almost certainly end up dancing with different partners or to different music?
with a slightly different embrace. But it will be your dance and nobody elses. 
For me, that's one of the great things about Tango.

Jack
?

> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> 
>The best close embrace experience I've had was when the woman placed her 
>left breast between my two. I don't know if this is the legendary "V" embrace 
>but we danced a Milonga
> 


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 22:47:14 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:47:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] There is nothing nuevo under the sun.
References: <mailman.1035.1228929942.27435.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD51F@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
	<BLU120-W2125736B4CF30F137674AFA9FB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <857792.38512.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Jay,

I guess my answer would be ... "well, it LOOKS like a Tango...." But I think I'd reserve
judgement until I heard the music. And isn't the same true of most other dances? Is a 
Waltz really a Waltz if the music is not Waltz? I don't think so. In Ballroom dancing
they have a catch-all name for any dance that doesn't fit any of the standard dances.
They just call it a 'rhythm?dancing'.

Jack



> From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com>
> 
> If you see a couple dancing on YouTube, and let's suppose they are in close 
> embrace, clearly well-connected with synchronous, smooth movements, dancing with 
> elegant, upright posture, doing what we recognize as "tango steps", but you 
> can't hear the music they're dancing to, and someone asked you what dance they 
> were doing, would you not, regardless of the silence, answer that they were 
> dancing tango? 


      



From sl at stevelittler.com  Thu Dec 11 00:10:34 2008
From: sl at stevelittler.com (Steve Littler)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:10:34 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
In-Reply-To: <103489.34592.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <103489.34592.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4940A0CA.4010205@stevelittler.com>

Where does the lady put her face in this V position?

Steve

Jack Dylan wrote:
> Mario,
>
> Yes, the lady's left breast between your two is the position for the "V" embrace 
> and this is by far the most popular embrace used in the milongas of Buenos Aires. 
> But there are a growing number of teachers, who often promote their classes as 
> 'Milonguero Style', who teach a different embrace with full nipples to nipples contact. 
> Yes, this is much more restrictive but it provides a much closer and more intimate 
> connection. My advice to you, as a relative beginner, would be to take every 
> opportunity to learn both styles. Eventually your own personal style will emerge. 
> You'll almost certainly end up dancing with different partners or to different music 
> with a slightly different embrace. But it will be your dance and nobody elses. 
> For me, that's one of the great things about Tango.
>
> Jack
>  
>
>   
>> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
>>
>> The best close embrace experience I've had was when the woman placed her 
>> left breast between my two. I don't know if this is the legendary "V" embrace 
>> but we danced a Milonga
>>
>>     
>
>   

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 01:07:19 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:07:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
In-Reply-To: <581526.56299.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <925281.28283.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
> The above quote has me wondering...since all Tango embraces
> are asymmetrical:
> ("..the asymmetrical nature of the embrace, closed on
> one side, more open on the other.") I was originaly taught chest to chest when in my first close embrace class.? You know
> the exercise where the couple fold their arms behind them
> and only make contact with their chests?..well, Im currently questioning the utility of such an exercise. 

Personally, I now prefer using a different technique that I learned from Alicia Pons.  The woman folds her forearms over each other (as if she's Jeannie from I Dream of Jeannie) and they rest on the man's chest.  This gets the lean and the connection and allows more room for feet for beginner's mistakes.

But anyway, "close-embrace" is the term used for straight on connection (buttonhole to bra) with very little V in the frame.  The exercise you described is quite useful because many people often do not have a sense of what being in front of someone actually means.  It's quite common for beginners to move aside their partner while thinking that they are in front.  Taking the arms away helps bring the focus on the chest and not the problems the arms can bring into play.


> The best close embrace experience I've had was when the
> woman placed her left breast between my two. I don't know if this is the legendary "V" embrace but we danced a Milonga song to die for..perfect communication coming up from our lower torsos thru the chest
> connection. .. 

This sounds like an odd connection to me, but this might just be due to body types.  In close-embrace the chests can sometimes roll open, as if they are gears in a pair of wheels, to create or close room as needed.  If you stop the rolling so that you get an asymmetric embrace that is shaped like a V, you've created the V-frame.  It's the left side of the woman connecting with the right side of the man.  The asymmetry allows for more movement and ornamentation.  The woman's head position can face the man more comfortably.  You can check out Daniel Lapadula's videos for more on the V-frame.  

There are different things to be wary of, such as the asymmetry of backward ochos and the greater likelihood of the woman taking a forward step in a turn instead of back step, among other things.  There are also things you lose, as well, with the V-frame.  The body parts that are no longer in contact cannot share in the dance.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      


From politas at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 01:22:02 2008
From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:22:02 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
In-Reply-To: <4940A0CA.4010205@stevelittler.com>
References: <103489.34592.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4940A0CA.4010205@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <4940B18A.1050604@gmail.com>

Steve Littler wrote:
 > Where does the lady put her face in this V position?
 >
 > Steve
 >
 > Jack Dylan wrote:
 >> Mario,
 >>
 >> Yes, the lady's left breast between your two is the position for the
 >> "V" embrace and this is by far the most popular embrace used in the
 >> milongas of Buenos Aires. But there are a growing number of teachers,
 >> who often promote their classes as 'Milonguero Style', who teach a
 >> different embrace with full nipples to nipples contact.

I find I end up in different embraces due mostly to body shapes and 
familiarity. With tall, skinny women that I know fairly well, it's the 
nipple-nipple style parallel close embrace, which can be awkward for a 
lot of moves, but is very comfortable for milongas and simple steps. 
Tall women with a fuller bosom make a "V" embrace more comfortable. Some 
women will still look over my shoulder, while some will look to their 
right, towards the open end of the "V". As height decreases, I am more 
likely to end up in an open embrace. I don't find a close embrace 
comfortable when my chin is over the lady's head. And here in Australia, 
many women are not comfortable with a close embrace at all, especially 
those new to Tango.

Myk
in Canberra

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 01:23:58 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:23:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
References: <103489.34592.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4940A0CA.4010205@stevelittler.com>
Message-ID: <383591.57570.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

The lady has a choice of 3 positions. In my personal order of preference:

1. She can look straight ahead, i.e facing or touching?the right side of the man's head or face;
2. Head turned slightly left looking over the man's right shoulder; or
3. Head turned slightly right.

Many ladies use a different head position depending on their partner, music, etc.

Jack


> From: Steve Littler <sl at stevelittler.com>
> 
> Where does the lady put her face in this V position?
> 



      



From hoytlee at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 11 03:17:42 2008
From: hoytlee at earthlink.net (Hoyt Ng)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:17:42 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Close Embrace in ?
In-Reply-To: <925281.28283.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <925281.28283.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C7AD3F83-3745-4558-BF38-E6913B94DC66@earthlink.net>

Hello,

Would Julio Balmaceda and Corina de La Rosa's embrace be classified  
as "V" or close?  I notice that she is pretty much off-set by at  
least a half body width from him in many of the videos I have seen of  
them, but they don't seem to be angled off each other, not sure if  
its a perception issue though.  I've always been confused by this  
issue.  thanks.

be well,
Hoyt


On Dec 10, 2008, at 10:07 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

>
> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The above quote has me wondering...since all Tango embraces
>> are asymmetrical:
>> ("..the asymmetrical nature of the embrace, closed on
>> one side, more open on the other.") I was originaly taught chest  
>> to chest when in my first close embrace class.  You know
>> the exercise where the couple fold their arms behind them
>> and only make contact with their chests?..well, Im currently  
>> questioning the utility of such an exercise.
>
> Personally, I now prefer using a different technique that I learned  
> from Alicia Pons.  The woman folds her forearms over each other (as  
> if she's Jeannie from I Dream of Jeannie) and they rest on the  
> man's chest.  This gets the lean and the connection and allows more  
> room for feet for beginner's mistakes.
>
> But anyway, "close-embrace" is the term used for straight on  
> connection (buttonhole to bra) with very little V in the frame.   
> The exercise you described is quite useful because many people  
> often do not have a sense of what being in front of someone  
> actually means.  It's quite common for beginners to move aside  
> their partner while thinking that they are in front.  Taking the  
> arms away helps bring the focus on the chest and not the problems  
> the arms can bring into play.
>
>
>> The best close embrace experience I've had was when the
>> woman placed her left breast between my two. I don't know if this  
>> is the legendary "V" embrace but we danced a Milonga song to die  
>> for..perfect communication coming up from our lower torsos thru  
>> the chest
>> connection. ..
>
> This sounds like an odd connection to me, but this might just be  
> due to body types.  In close-embrace the chests can sometimes roll  
> open, as if they are gears in a pair of wheels, to create or close  
> room as needed.  If you stop the rolling so that you get an  
> asymmetric embrace that is shaped like a V, you've created the V- 
> frame.  It's the left side of the woman connecting with the right  
> side of the man.  The asymmetry allows for more movement and  
> ornamentation.  The woman's head position can face the man more  
> comfortably.  You can check out Daniel Lapadula's videos for more  
> on the V-frame.
>
> There are different things to be wary of, such as the asymmetry of  
> backward ochos and the greater likelihood of the woman taking a  
> forward step in a turn instead of back step, among other things.   
> There are also things you lose, as well, with the V-frame.  The  
> body parts that are no longer in contact cannot share in the dance.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Thu Dec 11 05:56:26 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:56:26 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L]  no religion -- Andreas and the age of reason ::yawn::
Message-ID: <ad10a9ebf45a803e5245a9090c8428e1@tangokombinat.de>

Amaury,

Your attempts at reasoning remain unconvincing. You are, however, doing 
quite a good job at validating my previous post. I have nothing more to 
say to you, onlist or off.

Andreas



Amaury wrote:

Andreas ::yawn::

I will only engage with content that I deem worth discussing.  Your 
commentary while poised to potentially cause a flame war is not worth a 
reply.  Interestingly enough you also seems to fit neatly in the 
category I defined in my first email ... hum... coincidence maybe. You 
may want open your eyes, re-read my posting and try seeing things a 
little less linearly.

If my words do not make sense to you... than my friend that is because 
we (you and I) live and very likely dance in different worlds.  
Interestingly enough I have seen Ron dancing ... his dance matches his 
conversation style.  I am sure I would find your dancing as boring, 
linear and rational as your comments.

Lets take this thread off the list please.  Any other comments kindly 
address to my private email... I am sure you can do that...yes?

Amaury

From rcgimmi at aol.com  Sat Dec 13 12:34:02 2008
From: rcgimmi at aol.com (rcgimmi@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:34:02 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Radio Stations
Message-ID: <8CB2B601FE7AA84-B2C-1F4@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com>

About a week ago, there was a thread about listening to tango on international radio stations. ?



If you're interested in listening to programming from overseas, you might want to check out this website:




http://www.surfmusic.de




The website is German; but, it has connections to over 17,000 radio stations worldwide. ?And, yes, there is at least one station in La Plata (Argentina) that plays tangos.




-R

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 20:45:49 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in America Latina
Message-ID: <821558.39721.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TOhQOGfx7w?? 
Next July I will be in Mexico City trying to qualify
as a permenant resident.? I plan to take some? classes
from this guy... it looks OK to me...of course I will be
bringing with me a plethora of learned approaches from]
You Tube....anyone out there in D.F.? ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TOhQOGfx7w


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 10:48:10 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:48:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tango in America Latina
Message-ID: <954561.49155.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks to those readers who sent me their feedback off-list.
I've heard that the Tango in Mexico City has improved a lot in the past several years.
Here is a video of a Milonga there last year;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv9Ax8TvD18
I can live with that...besides, Mexicans are really sweet people and probably don't
play many games... I'Il be checking it out personally in January.
As for the classes, I'll be taking them in order to find a practise partner outside of class.
I've already learned enough from watching YouTube videos to never need another class.


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 19:21:10 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:21:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L]   Tango in America Latina
Message-ID: <617630.79075.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Live Tango music at Milongas is a great treat...sometimes.
one of my pet peeves are groups who practise at Practicas...they should practise
at home...and come to really kick butt with their music...not be proud of the fact
that it's only the third time that they've played together...ugh
How long will it take for North American groups to do something like this? (see below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8W59DBQD3g
..for those ready to pounce..this is my last post for a week or more..enjoy your
monotony


      

From vytis at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 20:03:58 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Vince_Bagu=A8auskas_?=)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:03:58 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in America Latina
Message-ID: <BAY102-DS15B80F6F5023F01C0DFDEAEF50@phx.gbl>

Ah thats good I think.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
Sent: 12/16/2008 12:21:10 AM
To: tango-l at mit.edu <tango-l at mit.edu>
Subject: [Tango-L]   Tango in America Latina


Live Tango music at Milongas is a great treat...sometimes.
one of my pet peeves are groups who practise at Practicas...they should practise
at home...and come to really kick butt with their music...not be proud of the fact
that it's only the third time that they've played together...ugh
How long will it take for North American groups to do something like this? (see below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8W59DBQD3g
..for those ready to pounce..this is my last post for a week or more..enjoy your
monotony


      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Dec 16 17:53:24 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:53:24 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
Message-ID: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>

Looking back over the last couple dozen threads I see almost no mention
of milongas. Do you do them? Any secrets of how to do them, and well,
which you want to mention?

Here is an example of a performance by my favorite tango nuevo dancers,
Sebastian Arce and Mariana Montes. I love their footwork. I also like
how compact their embrace and movements are ? with two or three
exceptions no move intrudes into what on a packed floor would be someone
else's space.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR-Us0-a48


Larry de Los Angeles
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com


____________________________________________________________
Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbtzjiqoxzM5MqyEVKVoL5mLUOQ2a2wUho1bOulNb0jsaeosa/


From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Tue Dec 16 19:59:37 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:59:37 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
References: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <C77D7B0E884944C7BFD08E03A55672B7@michaelditkoff>

Yes, Larry I dance milonga. I place milonga above waltz but below tango. I take small steps, with concentration on movement and not adornments because there just isn't time, unless you rush them.

I have the delightful dilemma of deciding how to spend my time off during the presidential inauguration. Monday Jan 19 is the King Holiday and federal offices in the Washington metropolitan are closed Tuesday. Whereas half the nation seems to want to come here, I want to go elsewhere for tango. I'm thinking of Seattle, Portland, or San Francisco (just love those cable cars.) Any "warm" ideas.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Have to submit my leave slip for the Atlanta Tango Festival

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <larrynla at juno.com>
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets


Looking back over the last couple dozen threads I see almost no mention
of milongas. Do you do them? Any secrets of how to do them, and well,
which you want to mention?

Larry de Los Angeles



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 21:18:01 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
References: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <515274.79673.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Here's the best video I've seen on how to dance some nice Milonga. 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQ1T5zKTJ4

Jack


From: "larrynla at juno.com" larrynla at juno.com

Looking back over the last couple dozen threads I see almost no mention
of milongas. Do you do them? Any secrets of how to do them, and well,
which you want to mention?


      


From felixydelgado at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 21:23:21 2008
From: felixydelgado at hotmail.com (Felix Delgado)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:23:21 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>


> From: larrynla at juno.com
> 
> Here is an example of a performance by my favorite tango nuevo dancers,
> Sebastian Arce and Mariana Montes. I love their footwork. I also like
> how compact their embrace and movements are ? with two or three
> exceptions no move intrudes into what on a packed floor would be someone
> else's space.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR-Us0-a48
 
This dance is very sterile. They are dancing like robots - all head, no heart.

I find this not stepping to each beat very odd. I've always learned that in milonga, you step with each beat.

Felix


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From melvillefox at aol.com  Wed Dec 17 00:00:17 2008
From: melvillefox at aol.com (melvillefox@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:00:17 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>
References: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
	<COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CB2E1B7D16D70A-171C-694@MBLK-M42.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Felix Delgado <felixydelgado at hotmail.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 8:23 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets

> From: larrynla at juno.com
>
> Here is an example of a performance by my favorite tango nuevo 
dancers,
> Sebastian Arce and Mariana Montes.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR-Us0-a48

This dance is very sterile. They are dancing like robots - all head, no 
heart.

I find this not stepping to each beat very odd. I've always learned 
that in
milonga, you step with each beat.

Felix

-----------------------

Felix,

They're not robots, they're nuevo dancers. I know it's hard to tell the 
difference. Nuevo dancers don't pay attention to the music.

Mel





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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 04:45:36 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:45:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <495250.56891.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Felix Delgado <felixydelgado at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Here is an example of a performance by my favorite
> tango nuevo dancers,
> > Sebastian Arce and Mariana Montes. I 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR-Us0-a48
>  

> I find this not stepping to each beat very odd. I've
> always learned that in milonga, you step with each beat.


I found it interesting because he uses it to accent certain things in the music and because he uses it very sparingly.  When he does it, you can at times see the suspension he gives her so that she doesn't step.

I enjoyed the video, though I think it looks a little stiff due to Mariana's stiffness, not Sebastian.  Her knees don't bend much, so that she doesn't appear as grounded.  I didn't think of it as robotic.  Sebastian seemed really intent on the music.

Trini de Pittsburgh






      

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Wed Dec 17 14:31:36 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:31:36 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga
Message-ID: <4948E318.31499.38B6FB@flame.2xtreme.net>

Here's one of my favorite milongas. El Pibe Sarandi & Elina Roldan. 
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=xS5Bw2fKoYA

Diane


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 15:54:38 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:54:38 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081216.145324.28355.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370812171254v337150f5w562f116b4cee4d5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:53 PM, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:
> Looking back over the last couple dozen threads I see almost no mention
> of milongas. Do you do them?

      An interesting question, Larry, in that it ought to be an
extremely ridiculous one, but unfortunately it is not, as apparently
quite a few people do not do milonga.  To me, unless one is a beginner
and simply has not learned yet, only dancing tango and waltz but no
milonga seems as patently absurd as having an American, French, or
Russian flag with only red and white, but no blue.  Or the Father, the
Son, and no Holy Ghost.  Or Moe, Larry, and no Curly.  Or health,
wealth, but no happiness.  Or a million other broken triad analogies.

     When someone tells me they don't dance milonga, I quietly shed a
tear for them, because they are missing out on some of the finest
moments tango has to offer.

     I've never held this against anyone, of course--well, except for
one woman who stepped over the line and utterly disrespected the
dance, actually having the audacity to haughtily say to me in response
to a dance request, "I don't do milonga--tango is serious and for
grown-ups, and milonga is just a childish clown dance."  I politely
excused myself from her company and never asked her to dance anything
else ever again.  After all, if she had such a dismissively
superficial judgment about something as beautifully rich as milonga,
how much could she possibly really know about the sentimiento of tango
or waltz either?

     I suspect many people who don't dance milonga are simply afraid
of it, since it doesn't seem to be taught as much as tango or waltz.
In the case of women, I find it can also be because too many beginning
leaders yanked them around too frenetically, forced them to take steps
that were too big, etc.  This fear is easily overcome with a more
patient and experienced leader.

     One personal note I'd like to add is that I only reach milonga
nirvana with the classic milonga music--anything newer I almost
invariably find to be too light and breezy, failing to capture the
earthy intensity of the dance, effectively trivializing it and
stripping from it its true essence; one might even go so far as to
say, emasculating it.

     A request to DJ's--please don't try and get cute by playing
obscure new "milongas" in an effort to show how hip and cool and
avant-garde you are--stick to the tried and true classics.  As regards
milonga music (even more so than tango or waltz), perfection has
already been achieved, and it's all been downhill from there.  IMNSHO,
and all that.  :-)

Huck

From vytis at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 16:21:26 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (Vince Bagusauskas)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:21:26 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Facebook
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV882B49E78D3766E2F29FCAEF20@phx.gbl>

Anyone on this list has a Facebook presence for their school?  Please
respond via private email or go looking for me on FB.

Cheers

Have a merry Christmas (oh I hate the sensitivities of the Septics about the
season!) and many wonderful tangos in the new year.

Vince


From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 16:45:29 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:45:29 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <495250.56891.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>
	<495250.56891.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W12973C961C8B4D47276C2A9F20@phx.gbl>


I agree with Trini. I actually thought he was dancing very musically. That is, his steps were interpreting themes in the music. Maybe not the predominant themes, but he WAS dancing well to aspects of the music. While it's true he was not doing the "default" of stepping on every beat, I've always thought that was more a guideline than a "rule." 

I've always found interpreting milonga music problematic. Milonga music, like tango and valz, is complex music, multi-layered, multi-voiced. The problem is that I may "hear," and focus on and dance to, something different in the music than what my partner hears. In the slower tango and valz, this is not a problem, but in milonga, everything is going so fast that if she is not hearing and dancing to the same theme in the music, we can misstep. In my own dancing I notice this happens most in the transitions between dancing on the beat vs. dancing double-time, or dancing on the beat vs. pausing. This difficulty in making transitions at milonga-speed is no doubt why most people simply dance on every beat to avoid confusion.

As an aside, I've found that leading almost complete beginners in milonga can be pretty easy, once you give them the verbal expectation that they step and change weight on every beat.

        J 
    TangoMoments.com



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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 18:23:31 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:23:31 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga
Message-ID: <BAY105-W9378DF99DC854F61C656E97F20@phx.gbl>


IMO there is no way Sebastian Arce will do a milonga totally off the beat. He is well known in Buenos Aires for teaching milonga musicality.
 
There must be some problem in that video between the music and the dance.
 
He dances typical milonga steps double timing, the steps would correlate with the music if there was some way to syncronize them.
 
Best regards, Sergio
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From tempehuck at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 19:05:50 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:05:50 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W9378DF99DC854F61C656E97F20@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W9378DF99DC854F61C656E97F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370812171605x3ffa00b5x14e1a22f097c6253@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> IMO there is no way Sebastian Arce will do a milonga totally off the beat. He is well known in Buenos Aires for teaching milonga musicality.
>
> There must be some problem in that video between the music and the dance.

     From what I've been told, there often are audio timing problems
when posting different format videos to YouTube.

Huck

From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 23:36:58 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:36:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W9378DF99DC854F61C656E97F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <917197.12570.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> IMO there is no way Sebastian Arce will do a milonga totally
> off the beat. He is well known in Buenos Aires for teaching
> milonga musicality.
>  
> There must be some problem in that video between the music
> and the dance.


I don't think the issue was Sebastian being off-beat.  There were some moments when he deliberately paused.  In one case, he was still leading Mariana to step while he stood still.  In another, you can see the suspension and the typical "falling back" to lead Mariana to step, which brought attention to the melody line.  He did this so rarely though, that it really made you pay more attention to the music than if he just blew through it.

The video reminded me of a comment made during Chicho's and Sebastian's stop at the DC Marathon a couple of years ago.  A friend who was at Chicho's workshop commented that Chicho asked the class whether they were in control of the music or if the music in control of them.   Sebastian's video show the former.

Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 02:48:03 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:48:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W12973C961C8B4D47276C2A9F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <521575.39956.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:

The problem is that I
> may "hear," and focus on and dance to, something
> different in the music than what my partner hears. In the
> slower tango and valz, this is not a problem, but in
> milonga, everything is going so fast that if she is not
> hearing and dancing to the same theme in the music, we can
> misstep. In my own dancing I notice this happens most in the
> transitions between dancing on the beat vs. dancing
> double-time, or dancing on the beat vs. pausing. 


I have the same problem, too, when I lead.  The secret for the women is that they need to keep their legs very relaxed, what I call the "the rag doll".  It's as if the man is moving around like a rag doll.  The tendency for women is to tense up when things get a little hectic and they should be doing exactly the opposite.

In watching the three videos presented, what strikes me is the different flavors of the couples based largely on how the women were moving.  The men were moving with similar character, but the women presented themselves quite differently.  Mariana as very upright, Javier's partner was earthy and showed off her hips, and Elina was elegant and played with her feet.  To me, Elina seemed the most connected and expressive with her partner.  She looked quite natural and unstylized.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 05:43:19 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:43:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
References: <521575.39956.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <484523.2074.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Trini and Jay,

Sorry, but I just don't get this. When dancing Milonga in particular, 
because of the quicker tempo and shorter reaction time for my partner, 
I dance in very close embrace with the best connection I can muster. 
So if I'm dancing to what I 'hear' in the music, I lead my partner to do 
the same, i.e. to dance to what I hear, not what she hears. Sometimes 
I might do double-time while leading her to do single-time but we're still 
following what I hear. At other times, my partner might 'play' with?her 
steps or hips?in between my leads but she's still following the same 
basic rhythm as me. This idea of the lady 'doing her own thing' regardless 
of what I hear is like my worst nightmare. IMHO, the lady shouldn't simply 
dance to what she 'hears', regardless of what the man hears. 

Following the man doesn't mean the lady can't impose her own personality 
on the dance. As Trini correctly says Mariana, Geraldine and Elina all dance 
their own styles. But each is still following the music that the man hears and 
interpets, just maybe some other things as well that don't conflict with what
the man hears.

Some dancers, maybe Chicho, might be skilled enough to dance to one 
rhythm?while leading his partner to dance to another rhythm but, IMO,?
that's way beyond the abilities of most - certainly mine..

Jack? 
?
----- Original Message ----
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos at yahoo.com>
> 
> I have the same problem, too, when I lead.? 


      



From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 18 12:15:42 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:15:42 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <484523.2074.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <521575.39956.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<484523.2074.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W188B7C00C038750E0D3FCFA9F30@phx.gbl>


Jack, 

     Yeah, well, I don't disagree with you. But you missed what I was trying to describe. A lame lead/description on my part no doubt. 

     But here's the deal as I see it. Yes, clearly a follower is following what the leader leads based on what he's hearing in the music. But as we all know, ala Gavito, proper leading requires the leader to pay attention to and "follow" the follower too in adjusting his steps and timing to accommodate whatever lack of precision in the lead-follow connection. 

     But when a leader and follower are in Very Good connection, it can happen that the line between who's leading and who's following blurs. Each is responding to the other. The leader is still leading, but if he's listening closely to his partner and her responses, he'll know what she wants, what she's listening to in the music, and give it to her. I'm not talking about a follower "doing her own thing," I'm talking
about the leader facilitating her self-expression and leading her to do
what she wants to do. It's just that, at milonga-speed it all becomes more difficult.

     J

  




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From railogic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 13:00:10 2008
From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:00:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <COL103-W2127992F1A59FE12F3049A8F20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <166102.82637.qm@web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello Felix,
Sebastian Arce is one of the few dancers who dance every minor beat of milong. And you feel he is doesn't go with music ?:)
Unfortunately in this video, music / sound are not in sync( a youtube glitch), still if you observe carefully you will notice relationshop between step patterns and rythm of music. 
His rhythm and speed absolutely fantastic, only other dancers I know come close in musical precision may be Chicho or Gustavo. But milongas? Sebastian is the best :)
?
It is possible he does not step every beat at times, but must be extremely difficult:). 
?
More videos of him 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcU_np2TnuU (demo, a little off again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rjbyYF3peo (demo compact)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6GZicIfOGc (show)
?
IL

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Felix Delgado <felixydelgado at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Felix Delgado <felixydelgado at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 8:23 PM

> From: larrynla at juno.com
> 
> Here is an example of a performance by my favorite tango nuevo dancers,
> Sebastian Arce and Mariana Montes. I love their footwork. I also like
> how compact their embrace and movements are ? with two or three
> exceptions no move intrudes into what on a packed floor would be someone
> else's space.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR-Us0-a48
 
This dance is very sterile. They are dancing like robots - all head, no heart.

I find this not stepping to each beat very odd. I've always learned that in
milonga, you step with each beat.

Felix



From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 13:00:48 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:00:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <484523.2074.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <270965.67654.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> So if I'm dancing to what I 'hear' in the
> music, I lead my partner to do the same, i.e. to dance to what I hear, not what she hears.

What I was referring to (and I think Jay experiences this, too) is when the woman doesn't hear as many layers as the man does and she's fixed on hearing one layer, then she isn't able to switch to a different layer of music.  In milongas, three different rhythms can be present in the same song -  single time, double-time, and the milonga rhythm.  Sometimes single time dominates but the milonga rhythm lies underneath.  So if she's fixated on the single time, I have a hard time switching to the underlying milonga rhythm.  If the woman hears more layers than the man, she has her ornaments to dance her musicality.  

When I follow, it does drive me nuts when my partner misses the pauses/freezes in milonga (there's not much I can do about it either without backleading).  In Javier's demo, he doesn't dance the pauses the first time they occur, but he catches them toward the end.  When I'm leading the pause but the woman continues bouncing around, it's a bit of a bummer.  If I can get her to hear the change in the music, then she tends to enjoy hitting the pauses when I try them later.

I'm sure there's more work I need to do on my leading, but it's makes such a big difference when the woman is attuned to the music.  


> Some dancers, maybe Chicho, might be skilled enough to
> dance to one rhythm?while leading his partner to dance to another
> rhythm but, IMO,?that's way beyond the abilities of most - certainly
> mine..

But Jack, you do this every time you lead a woman to the cross in cross system.  Or lead her to do a molinete as you do an enrosque.  Or if you just lead her to extend her foot as you stand still.  Just take those ideas and experiment on them.  Just do it consciously and soon you'll be doing it for the fun of it.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 17:08:07 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:08:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milong secrets ...duh
Message-ID: <319885.25896.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think that this whole thread is a good example of why few here dance the milonga..and 
this goes for the North American scene in general....COMPLICATE IT WHY DON"T YOU?
The brainiacs think that they can think their way thru the Milonga...well they can't.
To dance the Milonga, one has to be able to actually dance...not so with the N.A. tango.
There they can engineer some poses and steps...ugh.
I suggest that before taking tango lessons from any teachers, you first see them dance
a Milonga...then, you see if they can dance or not...a lot can't.


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 17:42:47 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:42:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milong secrets ...duh
In-Reply-To: <319885.25896.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <220814.64250.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Mario, this is a narrow way of thinking.? Do you realize that some of the teachers you've praised on this list do not care for milonga?
?
We all have our own interpretations of the music.  How we hear the music ends up affecting us, whether we realize it or not.  People who write the music for movie soundtracks know that.  What moves some people may not move others.  That is why tango is an art, not a sport.
?
I just think people don't dance milonga as much because they don't get as much practice at it.  One tanda out of every 6, compared to 4 tandas out of 6 for tango.  Vals rhythm is something everyone, including novices, can easily recognize.  Milonga rhythm is not so easily recognized.

Milonga can be danced quite simply.  But there's nothing wrong with appreciating the care the masters of tango put into crafting their music.  Ask any musician, and they will tell you how much they appreciate it when people actually pay attention to their music.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:

I think that this whole thread is a good example of why few here dance the
milonga..and 
this goes for the North American scene in general....COMPLICATE IT WHY
DON"T YOU?
The brainiacs think that they can think their way thru the Milonga...well they
can't.
To dance the Milonga, one has to be able to actually dance...not so with the
N.A. tango.
There they can engineer some poses and steps...ugh.
I suggest that before taking tango lessons from any teachers, you first see
them dance
a Milonga...then, you see if they can dance or not...a lot can't.


      
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Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



      


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 20:13:42 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:13:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga secrets..ugh
Message-ID: <67747.60359.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for your always logical feedback Trini but most teachers 
on this list will continue to miss my point.
Here's a reply that I just got from someone off list that 'gets it'.

"That is?right, Mario,?that milonga is not complicate here in BsAs
milongas and floor is full with simple dancers. But many North American
and European?dancers do not know how to let go, relax?and?and?enjoy
fun?feeling. They prefer to keep distance, stay stiff?and?do
movements?complicated like robots.
?They have to come and?dance here?to
traditional?milongas?and really dance, not just go to courses and pay much money?to
learn steps as without coming from a spontanious feeling they look
strange."




      

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Thu Dec 18 20:29:25 2008
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:29:25 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga secrets..ugh
In-Reply-To: <67747.60359.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <67747.60359.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7110066461.20081218202925@attglobal.net>

Thursday, December 18, 2008, 8:13:42 PM, you wrote:

M> Thanks for your always logical feedback Trini but most teachers 
M> on this list will continue to miss my point.

Mario -

I am guessing that most teachers will continue to miss the point
because they discuss things in terms of experienced students who
understand tango, rather then newbies who don't quite get it yet.

I can tell you that milonga is certainly alive and well here in
Manhattan, as well as all the other places to which I travel. For a
good introduction to the fundamentals of milonga, you might wish to
beg, borrow, steal, or (gasp) buy Fran Chesleigh's instructional
milonga DVD.

Regards/Richard





From natiber at charter.net  Fri Dec 19 01:12:44 2008
From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:12:44 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
Message-ID: <82BDB7DE-F60E-46EC-B6A4-3ABC2EB0CCC4@charter.net>

Trini,
In addition to ?single time, double-time, and the milonga rhythm,? I  
think you need to add syncopated rhythm to cover the variety of  
rhythms that one can use dancing to milonga music.
Norm

From justdance at jeffnet.org  Tue Dec 16 16:10:46 2008
From: justdance at jeffnet.org (Peter)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:10:46 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] most popular songs at milongas
Message-ID: <7B6F95141BD14EE99BBF1FF3FECDF2A7@tango>

I've begun dj-ing in a small town, and mostly use sets of songs from 
tanda lists I've found on the web.  What I wonder is what are some of 
the songs you hear most often these days in the milongas in the cities. 
Thanks.  Peter Silverman, justdance at jeffnet.org. 


From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 09:37:04 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 06:37:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your Milonga secrets
Message-ID: <365941.20997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"Trini,
In addition to ?single time, double-time, and the milonga rhythm,? I? 
think you need to add syncopated rhythm to cover the variety of? 
rhythms that one can use dancing to milonga music."
Norm

?Nope, 'fraid not...words and anal yses won't do it....dancing will.
?Here's a guy that can dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGUfq77q0e4
Perhaps, if the 'teacher' danced with and for the students...that would help.
The whole idea is to FEEL the music.
The Milonga beat is NOT difficult...no more than the Vals..
It's just that the Tango steps can't fit into it...gee, got to dance!


      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 10:01:14 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:01:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Happy Tango New Year
Message-ID: <128266.41082.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUxVZUtRfA8
This is a video of a seasoned dancer in Bs As. 
He is using only the walk to the cross, giro with sacada, ocho atras?and ocho cortada.
THE important thing is that he puts these simple moves together while FEELING the music.? That's why the crowd in Bs As gives him a rousing ovation..They dance?beautifully.
Teachers have to make a living (most of them) and so they look for?more stuff to teach.
Students are gullible they think that they don't know and that teacher's do.
This combination produces Tango Pedogogy.? What we need is more Androgogy.
Anyway, thanks to a lot of off and on list feedback here, I now know what I need to know.
And I am looking forward to a new year in which I really ENJOY dancing Tango..
..and wishing all of you the same.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homeimmersion/
?
?
?


      

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Fri Dec 19 11:32:37 2008
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:32:37 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Your Milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <365941.20997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <365941.20997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <182508234.20081219113237@attglobal.net>

Friday, December 19, 2008, 9:37:04 AM, you wrote:

M> The Milonga beat is NOT difficult...no more than the Vals..

It is common for a beginner to think that the vals beat is not
difficult. It just indicates that you are doing the neophyte's count
of 1 2 3. When you become more experienced and go to the more
challenging 2 3 1 or 3 1 2 counts vals becomes an entirely different
ballgame.


M> It's just that the Tango steps can't fit into it...

If you look at the great Pepito Avellaneda's "Asi Se Baila Milonga"
instructional program you will see that he uses tango steps as the
basis of his milonga.

And by the way, don't think that Pepito is dancing close embrace just
because he is pressed against his partner: It really IS milonga.






From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 12:33:54 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:33:54 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Your Milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <365941.20997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <365941.20997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370812190933p4e79ef4y5f0776258fe6a089@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Trini,
> In addition to "single time, double-time, and the milonga rhythm," I
> think you need to add syncopated rhythm to cover the variety of
> rhythms that one can use dancing to milonga music."
> Norm
>
>  Nope, 'fraid not...words and analyses won't do it....dancing will.
>  Here's a guy that can dance:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGUfq77q0e4

     Is that Billy Idol?  Didn't he used to have bleached blond hair?

Huck

From natiber at charter.net  Fri Dec 19 12:52:41 2008
From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:52:41 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
Message-ID: <CFCF6F8A-C05C-48E2-A377-54AFAAEC6855@charter.net>

Mario,

You say , ?fraid not...words and anal yses won't do it....dancing  
will.? Are you suggesting that imitative learning is the only way to  
learn to dance? Yes, ultimately everyone has to ?dance it,? but good  
dance teachers know that, while some people are primarily "imitative"  
learners, others are "cognitive" learners and benefit greatly from  
the ?words and analysis.? Good teachers try to provide their students  
with both. Understanding the difference between ?double time? and  
?syncopated? rhythms, can be the first step in learning to dance  
these two very different rhythms to milonga music. This is not easy  
to do.

On a personal note, If your use of ?anal yses,?  in response to my  
posting, was deliberate and not a typo, then I suggest you need to  
find a good teacher; common courtesy
can be learned!

Norm 

From brick at fastpack.com  Fri Dec 19 16:28:35 2008
From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:28:35 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] intellectual skills vs motor skils
Message-ID: <ca2c2380812191328j6849ccco9c0336fc64bc9b5b@mail.gmail.com>

Tango is something you do with your body and your heart. It is a motor skill.

Writing, talking, thinking, are all things you do with your head. They
are intellectual skills.

It is possible to dance very very well, and have no intellectual
concept of what you are doing. This is why I think so many very
talented dancers make very bad teachers: They simply don't know (with
their heads) what they are doing. They often teach what they heard in
classes they've taken, not what they actually do. Most often they are
good in spite of the training they have received, not because of it,
but of course they love their teachers, and regurgitate their
teacher's words as "the truth."

It is also possible to have a very good intellectual understanding of
the physics, physiology, music structure, history & culture behind
dancing tango and not be a very good dancer.

For some of us who are not extremely talented, I think it is helpful
to have a good intellectual understanding to help us while we are
developing our motor skills. For some, obsessing over this knowledge
actually impairs learning (paralysis by analysis.) The very talented
can just watch something, and go do it.

A very good book that describes these issues in teaching motor skills,
especially for dance, is "Dynamic Alignment Through Imagery" by Eric
Franklin http://tinyurl.com/4v7ovu

As far as I can tell, the only motor skills required to participate in
Tango-L is typing, so this is purely an intellectual exercise which
may help some people's dance, may impair others', or simply amuse or
annoy.

In other words, this list has very little to with actually dancing.

On another note:

Is anyone coming to the 3rd Annual San Diego Tango Festival  over New
Year's weekend?
http://www.sandiegotangofestival.com

It is a Tom Stermitz "close embrace" festival, with intentionally
crowded dance floors, traditional music, attention paid to the ronda,
etc. The last two years, the dancing has been good, and the weather
has been warm and Sunny in America's Finest City. I hope to see some
of you there.

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Fri Dec 19 20:39:15 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:39:15 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] intellectual skills vs motor skils
In-Reply-To: <ca2c2380812191328j6849ccco9c0336fc64bc9b5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081220013937.36C8D1259944@mit.edu>

Look here you, that description is too complex.

Tango is like a large shiny spoon aimed at ones head.
Intellectual skills are recognizing that "yes indeed, that is a large shiny
spoon".
Motor skills are avoiding the large shiny spoon. 

Off to have dinner then dance.
David


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Brick Robbins
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 2:29 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] intellectual skills vs motor skils

Tango is something you do with your body and your heart. It is a motor
skill.

Writing, talking, thinking, are all things you do with your head. They
are intellectual skills.

It is possible to dance very very well, and have no intellectual
concept of what you are doing. This is why I think so many very
talented dancers make very bad teachers: They simply don't know (with
their heads) what they are doing. They often teach what they heard in
classes they've taken, not what they actually do. Most often they are
good in spite of the training they have received, not because of it,
but of course they love their teachers, and regurgitate their
teacher's words as "the truth."

It is also possible to have a very good intellectual understanding of
the physics, physiology, music structure, history & culture behind
dancing tango and not be a very good dancer.

For some of us who are not extremely talented, I think it is helpful
to have a good intellectual understanding to help us while we are
developing our motor skills. For some, obsessing over this knowledge
actually impairs learning (paralysis by analysis.) The very talented
can just watch something, and go do it.

A very good book that describes these issues in teaching motor skills,
especially for dance, is "Dynamic Alignment Through Imagery" by Eric
Franklin http://tinyurl.com/4v7ovu

As far as I can tell, the only motor skills required to participate in
Tango-L is typing, so this is purely an intellectual exercise which
may help some people's dance, may impair others', or simply amuse or
annoy.

In other words, this list has very little to with actually dancing.

On another note:

Is anyone coming to the 3rd Annual San Diego Tango Festival  over New
Year's weekend?
http://www.sandiegotangofestival.com

It is a Tom Stermitz "close embrace" festival, with intentionally
crowded dance floors, traditional music, attention paid to the ronda,
etc. The last two years, the dancing has been good, and the weather
has been warm and Sunny in America's Finest City. I hope to see some
of you there.
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Fri Dec 19 23:42:05 2008
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:42:05 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time
Message-ID: <494C779D.000005.02836@OEM-COMPUTER>

Yes, Huck, I'm sure that is Billy idol  ...... ( isn't he talented!)  
And David .....  Shouldn't we embrace that large shiny Spoon?
Thank you .... Mel (nz).

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 00:34:53 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:34:53 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time
In-Reply-To: <494C779D.000005.02836@OEM-COMPUTER>
References: <494C779D.000005.02836@OEM-COMPUTER>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370812192134g42fd1b00k1cad8324b6d6594a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Melroy <melroyr at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> Yes, Huck, I'm sure that is Billy idol  ...... ( isn't he talented!)
> And David .....  Shouldn't we embrace that large shiny Spoon?
> Thank you .... Mel (nz).

     Tee hee!  :-)   He may well be a good milonga dancer, I don't
know, but as most of us are aware, it takes two to tango (along with
the skills of leading and following), and in this video, the guy's
just Billy Idol.  Sing it, Billy:

On the floor of tokyo
Or down in London town to go, go
With the record selection
With the mirror reflection
I'm dancing with myself

When there's no-one else in sight
In the crowded lonely night
Well I wait so long
For my love vibration
And I'm dancing with myself

Oh dancing with myself
Oh dancing with myself
Well there's nothing to lose
And there's nothing to prove
I'll be dancing with myself

Huck, "next time a video of a couple dancing might be more
appropriate, Mario!  :-)  "

From tango at kidojo.it  Sat Dec 20 04:45:25 2008
From: tango at kidojo.it (tango@kidojo.it)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:45:25 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L] season greetings
References: <319885.25896.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c96287$af8b78b0$1300000a@serverki>

Hello,
I wish a a Merry Christmas and a Happy New TangoYear!! 
Patricia Muller florence/Italy
www.kidojo.it

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Sat Dec 20 15:46:16 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:46:16 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time.. (avoided..)...
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370812192134g42fd1b00k1cad8324b6d6594a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081220204643.F401B11878E2@mit.edu>

"Well there's nothing to lose
And there's nothing to prove
I'll be dancing with myself"

I think you boys are missing the point, analyzing this too much as usual.
Just avoid the spoon.

It is like in this video clip. If either of you think your looking too
dignified while practicing out in public then I have to wonder how well
either of you dance the Follows.

Any self respecting Lead out there has got to, at some point, been aware
that they have in fact. Looked like a total boob practicing tango in public.

In my humble opinion, if a Lead does not get past this, the Lead is going to
have difficulty leading the Follow and letting her be present only relying
on pantomime, airs, or antics.

The Follows already know the Leads are well, "Guys". I prefer to answer the
question "yes, I am a Guy". Then get down to some great dancing with the
Follows.

BTW: The video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w

David
PS: Love Billy Idol!!!
Also like the songs "Flesh for fantasy" and "Eyes with out a face" 


-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Huck Kennedy
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:35 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Spoon time

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Melroy <melroyr at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> Yes, Huck, I'm sure that is Billy idol  ...... ( isn't he talented!)
> And David .....  Shouldn't we embrace that large shiny Spoon?
> Thank you .... Mel (nz).

     Tee hee!  :-)   He may well be a good milonga dancer, I don't
know, but as most of us are aware, it takes two to tango (along with
the skills of leading and following), and in this video, the guy's
just Billy Idol.  Sing it, Billy:

On the floor of tokyo
Or down in London town to go, go
With the record selection
With the mirror reflection
I'm dancing with myself

When there's no-one else in sight
In the crowded lonely night
Well I wait so long
For my love vibration
And I'm dancing with myself

Oh dancing with myself
Oh dancing with myself
Well there's nothing to lose
And there's nothing to prove
I'll be dancing with myself

Huck, "next time a video of a couple dancing might be more
appropriate, Mario!  :-)  "
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Sat Dec 20 16:02:15 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:02:15 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time... A side note...
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370812192134g42fd1b00k1cad8324b6d6594a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081220210248.51C5BCD4E0A@mit.edu>

One side note:
The word "Guy" is semantics and it helps the Leads if they adopt this view,
irregardless if they are a man or a woman.
David
 

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Huck Kennedy
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:35 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Spoon time

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Melroy <melroyr at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> Yes, Huck, I'm sure that is Billy idol  ...... ( isn't he talented!)
> And David .....  Shouldn't we embrace that large shiny Spoon?
> Thank you .... Mel (nz).

     Tee hee!  :-)   He may well be a good milonga dancer, I don't
know, but as most of us are aware, it takes two to tango (along with
the skills of leading and following), and in this video, the guy's
just Billy Idol.  Sing it, Billy:

On the floor of tokyo
Or down in London town to go, go
With the record selection
With the mirror reflection
I'm dancing with myself

When there's no-one else in sight
In the crowded lonely night
Well I wait so long
For my love vibration
And I'm dancing with myself

Oh dancing with myself
Oh dancing with myself
Well there's nothing to lose
And there's nothing to prove
I'll be dancing with myself

Huck, "next time a video of a couple dancing might be more
appropriate, Mario!  :-)  "
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From tempehuck at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 16:23:17 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:23:17 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time.. (avoided..)...
In-Reply-To: <20081220204643.F401B11878E2@mit.edu>
References: <ecf43f370812192134g42fd1b00k1cad8324b6d6594a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081220204643.F401B11878E2@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370812201323t29d85b47md105658466dfc388@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 1:46 PM, DHodgson <DHodgson at tangolabyrinth.com> wrote:
> "Well there's nothing to lose
> And there's nothing to prove
> I'll be dancing with myself"
>
> I think you boys are missing the point, analyzing this too much as usual.
> Just avoid the spoon.
>
> It is like in this video clip. If either of you think your looking too
> dignified while practicing out in public then I have to wonder how well
> either of you dance the Follows.

     No, I think *you're* missing the point, to wit, that a video of
some guy dancing by himself does not serve as an example of good
milonga dancing.  Whether or not he looks "goofy" practicing is not
the point--the point is that he's dancing by himself, which hardly
provides a good example of a partner dance.

     It's easy to be brilliant dancing by yourself.  Cooperating with
a partner is much more difficult.

     I'm not saying nobody should practice by themselves if they want
to, by all means have at it--just don't videotape it and tell me it's
an example of good milonga dancing, because milonga dancing takes two.

> PS: Love Billy Idol!!!

      So do I.   Particularly dancing alone to that song and looking
goofy.   :-)

Huck

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Sat Dec 20 21:28:49 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:28:49 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spoon time.. (avoided..)...
In-Reply-To: <ecf43f370812201323t29d85b47md105658466dfc388@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081221022912.CB7A7143190E@mit.edu>

Well then suit your self.
Would not mind seeing what you can do on the dance floor some time.
Tango is a small circle when it comes down to it, and any one worth their
salt watches the Follow first before the Lead. How each "guy" gets to be
good... its usually a good story.

Like my penchant for cheesy, bad humor..  
Ya hear about the rabbi who didn't charge for circumcisions,,,
He only took tips...

Er,,, Yeah I know,, like my foot work... an inexpensive, easy diversion from
heavy subjects.



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Huck Kennedy
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 2:23 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Spoon time.. (avoided..)...

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 1:46 PM, DHodgson <DHodgson at tangolabyrinth.com>
wrote:
> "Well there's nothing to lose
> And there's nothing to prove
> I'll be dancing with myself"
>
> I think you boys are missing the point, analyzing this too much as usual.
> Just avoid the spoon.
>
> It is like in this video clip. If either of you think your looking too
> dignified while practicing out in public then I have to wonder how well
> either of you dance the Follows.

     No, I think *you're* missing the point, to wit, that a video of
some guy dancing by himself does not serve as an example of good
milonga dancing.  Whether or not he looks "goofy" practicing is not
the point--the point is that he's dancing by himself, which hardly
provides a good example of a partner dance.

     It's easy to be brilliant dancing by yourself.  Cooperating with
a partner is much more difficult.

     I'm not saying nobody should practice by themselves if they want
to, by all means have at it--just don't videotape it and tell me it's
an example of good milonga dancing, because milonga dancing takes two.

> PS: Love Billy Idol!!!

      So do I.   Particularly dancing alone to that song and looking
goofy.   :-)

Huck
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From vytis at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 20 22:30:51 2008
From: vytis at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Vince_Bagu=B9auskas?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:30:51 +1100
Subject: [Tango-L] Milong secrets ...duh
In-Reply-To: <319885.25896.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319885.25896.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W16941BFEA06FAB47DBE808AEEE0@phx.gbl>


Mario you said on the 16th: "last post for a week or more"
 
hmpf!
 
You did not last 3 days!Cheers! Vince> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:08:07 -0800> From: sopelote at yahoo.com> To: tango-l at mit.edu> Subject: [Tango-L] Milong secrets ...duh> >
_________________________________________________________________
Holiday cheer from Messenger. Download free emoticons today!
http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669758 

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 08:25:12 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 05:25:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
References: <CFCF6F8A-C05C-48E2-A377-54AFAAEC6855@charter.net>
Message-ID: <941170.42525.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Norm,

Since you obviously think it''s important, could you provide us 
with an explanation, preferably with examples, of what you mean 
by a 'syncopated rhythm' in milonga?

Cheers,
Jack



> From: Norman Tiber natiber at charter.net

> Understanding the difference between ?double time? and? 
> ?syncopated? rhythms, can be the first step in learning to dance? 
> these two very different rhythms to milonga music. This is not easy? 
> to do.
> 



      



From natiber at charter.net  Sun Dec 21 12:44:15 2008
From: natiber at charter.net (Norman Tiber)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:44:15 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L]  Your milonga secrets
Message-ID: <2A186E17-8C17-44CE-A115-129D04D8EB2F@charter.net>

Jack,

Very often dancers use the term ?syncopated? to describe what  
musicians call ?double time.? For example,  traspie is usually  
danced  double time. The quick, quick, slow is a symmetrical division  
of the regular accent of the music. If you danced a syncopated quick,  
quick, slow, you would use an asymmetrical division of the rhythm,  
you displace the regular accent. This looks and feels very different.

Korey  Ireland  has discussed this on Tango L (see archives) and in  
an interview at:
http://www.close-embrace.com/korey.html

I have a video of Gustavo and Giselle demonstrating syncopation,  
dancing milonga. Go to:
http://public.me.com/natiber
To open, click on the small, downward arrow on the right.
At 26 and 39 seconds are examples of dancing syncopated milonga rhythm.

I hope this helps!

Norm


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 16:52:54 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:52:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets
In-Reply-To: <941170.42525.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69426.12560.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Since you obviously think it''s important, could
> you provide us with an explanation, preferably with examples, of what you
> mean by a 'syncopated rhythm' in milonga?
> 

WARNING, if you don't like to think a lot about the music, delete this post.


I found Korey's explanation in the link that Norman sent a bit unclear if one is not already familiar with syncopa.  So here's the explanation I use that I borrow from Alex Krebs.

Let's start with a base of 4 counts in tango in slow time.  In other words, every time you walk on the main beat in tango, you'll count "1234".  Each "1" is a step on the strong beat.  If you took 2 steps, you'd be counting "12341".  Your weight has the entire time for counts "234" to arrive at where you place your foot at "1".  Get off of the computer and try this first to see what I mean.

For quick time, say for a rock step, you'll end up dancing "1 3 1".  Here, the spaces for beats 2 and 4 are left blank.  I suggest still mentally counting 1234 in your head or out loud, and you'll see that "1 3 1" marks the desired weight positions for a rock step.

A syncopa is either the addition of a beat or a taking away of a beat in an unexpected place.  For example, a rock step that is "12  1".  Here, the spaces for beats 3 and 4 are blank.  The result is something that feel very fast at first, but then hangs like a pause.  Common syncopa variations for tango include:

12  1
1  41
123 1
1 341

I suppose you could skip the "1" but that's never made sense to me.  The feeling of a syncopa is similar in feeling to dancing the "12 1" or "1 31" in vals (which has a normal rhythm of 1231), but that's not considered syncopa because it's not unexpected.

Concerning it's application to milonga, I usually don't think of milonga as having a syncopated rhythm because it happens fairly rarely compared to the other rhythms.  One can also dance syncopated even if the music is not syncopated.  For example, the piano is clearly playing the same milonga rhythm over and over again throughout the piece, but at 39 seconds, the other instruments suddenly stop playing while the piano continues with &341.  The absence of the other instruments is a syncopa, but the piano is not playing syncopa.  So a someone can either dance the syncopa (which is what Gustavo or Giselle do) or dance the milonga rhythm.

Trini de Pittsburgh




Hope this helps.

Trini de Pittsburgh








      

From tangomaniac at cavtel.net  Sun Dec 21 17:11:49 2008
From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:11:49 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
References: <69426.12560.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B6239E23A4E64B18BA35E4D82DD67016@michaelditkoff>

Trini:
Good explanation. My explanation is based on how a man sets up ochos. He does a double time step to get onto the SAME foot as the woman. In syncopated rhythm, instead of ONLY the man dancing double time, BOTH partners dance double time so there is no change between parallel (same foot) and cross (opposite foot) dancing.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos at yahoo.com>
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Your milonga secrets


--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Since you obviously think it''s important, could
> you provide us with an explanation, preferably with examples, of what you
> mean by a 'syncopated rhythm' in milonga?
> 

WARNING, if you don't like to think a lot about the music, delete this post.


I found Korey's explanation in the link that Norman sent a bit unclear if one is not already familiar with syncopa.  So here's the explanation I use that I borrow from Alex Krebs.

Let's start with a base of 4 counts in tango in slow time.  In other words, every time you walk on the main beat in tango, you'll count "1234".  Each "1" is a step on the strong beat.  If you took 2 steps, you'd be counting "12341".  Your weight has the entire time for counts "234" to arrive at where you place your foot at "1".  Get off of the computer and try this first to see what I mean.

For quick time, say for a rock step, you'll end up dancing "1 3 1".  Here, the spaces for beats 2 and 4 are left blank.  I suggest still mentally counting 1234 in your head or out loud, and you'll see that "1 3 1" marks the desired weight positions for a rock step.

A syncopa is either the addition of a beat or a taking away of a beat in an unexpected place.  For example, a rock step that is "12  1".  Here, the spaces for beats 3 and 4 are blank.  The result is something that feel very fast at first, but then hangs like a pause.  Common syncopa variations for tango include:

12  1
1  41
123 1
1 341

I suppose you could skip the "1" but that's never made sense to me.  The feeling of a syncopa is similar in feeling to dancing the "12 1" or "1 31" in vals (which has a normal rhythm of 1231), but that's not considered syncopa because it's not unexpected.

Concerning it's application to milonga, I usually don't think of milonga as having a syncopated rhythm because it happens fairly rarely compared to the other rhythms.  One can also dance syncopated even if the music is not syncopated.  For example, the piano is clearly playing the same milonga rhythm over and over again throughout the piece, but at 39 seconds, the other instruments suddenly stop playing while the piano continues with &341.  The absence of the other instruments is a syncopa, but the piano is not playing syncopa.  So a someone can either dance the syncopa (which is what Gustavo or Giselle do) or dance the milonga rhythm.

Trini de Pittsburgh




Hope this helps.

Trini de Pittsburgh








      
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 18:58:11 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:58:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
In-Reply-To: <B6239E23A4E64B18BA35E4D82DD67016@michaelditkoff>
Message-ID: <291805.48626.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Michael <tangomaniac at cavtel.net> wrote:
> Good explanation. My explanation is based on how a man sets
> up ochos. He does a double time step to get onto the SAME
> foot as the woman. In syncopated rhythm, instead of ONLY the
> man dancing double time, BOTH partners dance double time so
> there is no change between parallel (same foot) and cross
> (opposite foot) dancing.


That's just both partners dancing double-time, not syncopated.  I believe your usage reflects the different uses of the word "syncopated" in the dance and music worlds.  I've found it much more useful to use the music definition instead of a dance definition that I think comes from ballroom.  I've noticed that teachers with ballroom backgrounds tend to use syncopated as synonymous with double-time, perhaps because ballroom music isn't as complex as tango music (to my ear, anyway).

Let's imagine a clock with the rhythm going in a continuous circle around the clock - around and around it goes.  If the rhythm only strikes at the 12, then it is single-time.  

If the rhythm strikes at 12, 6, and 12, then the rhythm is double-time.  Suppose the man changes weight at 12 & 6 for backward ochos (stepping out for the ocho when the rhythm strikes 12 again), then he is doing double-time.

If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3, and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a syncopated rhythm.


Trini de Pittsburgh



      

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 21 20:01:01 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 01:01:01 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
In-Reply-To: <291805.48626.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <B6239E23A4E64B18BA35E4D82DD67016@michaelditkoff>
	<291805.48626.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W168C17EB5EF2A8CC2E49CAA9EF0@phx.gbl>


> 
> If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3, and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a syncopated rhythm.
> 

Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's doing the synchopa? If he dances on the 6 and the 6, he's dancing synchopated.

  J

_________________________________________________________________
Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista?. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

From TimmyTango at aol.com  Sun Dec 21 22:32:40 2008
From: TimmyTango at aol.com (TimmyTango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:32:40 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd:  Double time
Message-ID: <d0c.43e5bf55.36806458@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/21/08 7:01:57 PM Central Standard Time, 
jayrabe at hotmail.com writes:

<< Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's doing the synchopa? If he 
dances on the 6 and the 6, he's dancing synchopated.
  >>
Pablo Aslan, the bass player from Avantango, and The New York - Buenos Aires 
Connection
explained it to me as 
stepping on the 1, or the 2, or the 3, or the 4 would be double time
In tango and milonga we step on the 1 and the 3. The down beat.
Accent on the 1

Stepping on the 2 and the 4 are the up beats
In milonga there is a mark between the 2 and the 3. Sycopa
or said a different way a 1/4 note

I like to tell my students a sycopa is a 
Quicker, quick, slow step
not a quick, quick, slow step

To many people dance slows and quick's (whole notes and half notes)
but never 1/4 notes, which we all need to do for a sycopa

   1      2   ,   3     4

Timmy in Cleveland<BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>One site keeps you connected 
to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)</HTML>

From patangos at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 22:41:20 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Double time
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W168C17EB5EF2A8CC2E49CAA9EF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <204884.94716.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Warning - if you're only in the "feel and move" camp and don't care for thinking, hit your delete key.

--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Jay Rabe <jayrabe at hotmail.com> wrote:

> > If, however, the man changes his weight at 12 & 3,
> and steps out for the ocho at 12, then he is dancing a
> syncopated rhythm.
> > 
> 
> Isn't it that if he dances on the 12 & 3, he's
> doing the synchopa? 

Yes, it really only takes the 12 (left foot) & 3 (right foot) to do the syncopa.  I added stepping out on 12 (left foot) to help complete the picture.  


If he dances on the 6 and the 6,
> he's dancing synchopated.
> 

Yes, since that would be skipping the 12 (or the strong beat of 1), but I don't see why anyone would do that.  Got any examples?

I've been reviewing Norman's link to Gustavo & Giselle (http://public.me.com/natiber) again.  I think my earlier analysis was off.  I now think that at 39 seconds, the following was happening.

piano:  milonga rhythm
other instruments:  pause (not syncopa)
Gustavo: milonga rhythm

However, at 35 seconds, Gustavo matches the syncopa of one the instruments (the absence of beats).  This is similar to what he does at 25-26 seconds. Any thoughts?

Also, I forgot to mention another common syncopa of "12 41" in my explanation of syncopas.  A useful phrase to remember this with is "kiss ME good NIGHT" with an up accent on the words in caps.  The clock equivalent would be 12 3 8 12.


Trini de Pittsburgh






      

From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov  Mon Dec 22 14:04:44 2008
From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:04:44 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] trini thread, skipping the one
Message-ID: <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C703FAD5EA@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Trini said: "I suppose you could skip the "1" but that's never made
sense to me. "  

Why not? For example, dont you do that whenever you choose to dance a
piece on the weak beat ? 

Also, here is an example from Gustavo, skpping the one and dancing
syncopa on the 23 alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of_GJn8n3QA

from  :43 to :49, he alternates, he is dancing on the 23, then the 3,,
then the 23 again. then the 3. The "3" here is what I call the weak
beat. 


From skindance at juno.com  Mon Dec 22 23:23:54 2008
From: skindance at juno.com (skindance)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:23:54 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] skipping the one
Message-ID: <495067DA.7000505@juno.com>

Of course, " skipping the one" is impossible the way our music is 
written. It boggles the mind what appears on Tango-L. Even worse that 
out vociferous dancing "experts" seem to have allowed this abuse to 
propagate, probably because the have never danced Mambo or Cha-cha where 
the one is "held", NOT skipped, shaken or stirred. Musicians must have 
rolled their eyes as they thought of music starting on 4, 3 or even 2.

YUK!
____________________________________________________________
Click here for free information on how to reduce your debt by filing for bankruptcy.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw22U6YRAYIZHgjU5DPe0uONmrisQlXkNoOPX1sTXnuee3d7s/

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 06:43:43 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:43:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] skipping the one
In-Reply-To: <495067DA.7000505@juno.com>
Message-ID: <57245.42967.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Mon, 12/22/08, skindance <skindance at juno.com> wrote:

> the one is "held", NOT skipped, shaken or
> stirred. Musicians must have 
> rolled their eyes as they thought of music starting on 4, 3
> or even 2.


Good point.  As a follower, it would feel awkward to me if the 1 wasn't marked in some way, whether it was a step, suspension, freeze, or something.  I don't think Martin or Jay meant to ignore it altogether.  So I can see a purposeful hold on 1 and a step on the syncopa to emphasize the syncopa.  However, I'm not particularly inspired by that small segment of Gustavo & Giselle.  I'm not hearing it the same way they are.

Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From melroyr at xtra.co.nz  Wed Dec 24 01:19:18 2008
From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:19:18 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)
Subject: [Tango-L] Skipping the 1
Message-ID: <4951D466.000001.01464@OEM-COMPUTER>

Well you can skip the 1 if you like but it's not going to go away, it's
still there in the music. 
I don't see that you need to mark it if you don't feel like it - even 
ignoring it and standing there is still an expression. 

And music (as in songs, tunes etc) starts on other beats, 1/2, 1/4 beats etc
 than the 1 all the time.
Or do you mean  SKIP  the 1 ?  I guess that would involve syncope !! 
Oh this is too much, I'm off.
Thanks, Mel (nz)

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 26 08:24:41 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 05:24:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] An accurate tango article
Message-ID: <671864.47300.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Short, but sweet.  By a man who lives in BsAs.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/traveltips/12/25/tango.etiquette/index.html



      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 26 19:39:43 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:39:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Stuff
Message-ID: <175761.48173.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK..we don't want to say exactly what we like 'cause we could get criticized
but this pair's Tango is wow! 
It's not the style that I would ever want to dance and it's 'performance' but still...I like it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdS_8_iiK88










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 26 21:26:06 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:26:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] The real McCoy
Message-ID: <215204.7059.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
O.K. now let's get serious.
This is the only video I've been able to find of Jorge Gutman.
This is what I will be basing my own dance on.
I would appreciate any sophisticated eyes letting me know what details they see in this.
I notice that he dances a lot in parellel and taps his foot to get there...the opposite of a 
lot of modern dancers...the musicality is superb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI










































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































      

From syarzhuk at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 12:17:59 2008
From: syarzhuk at gmail.com (Sergey Kazachenko)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:17:59 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Good Stuff
In-Reply-To: <175761.48173.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <175761.48173.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ebb7980c0812270917v1bfaca30m12fc49d1b8f55215@mail.gmail.com>

I don't like his a) posture - the eyes seem to be fixated on his
partner's breasts :) b) left arm going up and down all the time

Sergey

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK..we don't want to say exactly what we like 'cause we could get criticized
> but this pair's Tango is wow!
> It's not the style that I would ever want to dance and it's 'performance' but still...I like it!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdS_8_iiK88

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 14:07:57 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:07:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Link anyone?
Message-ID: <953329.61287.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi, I lost my link to a tango site that listed just about
all of the possible named?sequences in the dance...ie: ochos, outside walk, etc.
I remember that it had the sequences for close embrace that were listed in color?red.
It also had foot diagrams for everything. 
I haven't checked it for months and I'd like to take a look now.
Does this ring a bell for anyone? Do you know the site I'm talking about? help!? thks
?


      

From martin at waxman.net  Sat Dec 27 14:41:57 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:41:57 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Link anyone?
In-Reply-To: <953329.61287.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <953329.61287.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081227144119.01e4be80@waxman.net>

At 02:07 PM 12/27/2008, Mario wrote:
>Hi, I lost my link to a tango site that listed just about
>all of the possible named sequences in the dance...ie: ochos, 
>outside walk, etc.
>I remember that it had the sequences for close embrace that were 
>listed in color red.
>It also had foot diagrams for everything.
>I haven't checked it for months and I'd like to take a look now.
>Does this ring a bell for anyone? Do you know the site I'm talking 
>about? help!  thks

http://www.havefunwithtango.com/

Marty 


From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com  Sun Dec 28 12:52:09 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.Com (DHodgson)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:52:09 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Cafe Hanson found..
Message-ID: <20081228175239.922491275391@mit.edu>

Hello Everybody:

Found this news report about Caf? Hanson being found by archaeologists in
BSAS.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7801668.stm

 

Since I am not putting my time and energy into being a tango historian
(playing with other aspects of the dance).

Are their any tango historians on the list that could share some history
about this caf?, and a few stories if possible.

Also if there is any one who knows about this caf? showing up in tango
lyrics.

 

I for one would be very interested in hearing what is out there for my own
edification.

Thanks

David


From Crrtango at aol.com  Sun Dec 28 15:10:26 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:10:26 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Cafe Hanson found..
Message-ID: <d5a.392e2347.36893732@aol.com>

David,

There is not a lot of information about Cafe Hansen because it was demolished 
in 1912 but it was evidently one of the hangouts of the renowned El Cachafaz. 
  Supposedly there was a contest there between Cachafaz and his reputed black 
rival, another famous dancer of the era, El Negro Santillan, which Cachafaz 
won. 

cheers,
Charles


**************
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Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&amp;
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From TangoFantasy at aol.com  Tue Dec 30 00:41:32 2008
From: TangoFantasy at aol.com (TangoFantasy@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:41:32 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga"La Ideal"great success! -Winners take $1,
	500 in cash-more $$$ to come
Message-ID: <d37.39736904.368b0e8c@aol.com>

Monday, December 29, 5:00 am.
 
Dear Milongueros y Tangueras:
 
Another successful evening, a great event!!
 
I just came back home from "La Ideal" Milonga in Hallandale, FL.
 
A wonderful evening has ended and I thank you so much for your  support.
Everyone loved the decorations and I appreciate the nice comments  and praise.
Tonite was the most awesome milonga ever!! Over 200 people came to  celebrate 
and participate of the large drawing that had been announced.   The lucky 
winners were Nubia Vahos for $500 and Grizelle Forman took the big  prize of 
$1,000 in cash.  CONGRATULATIONS to both winners!!!
 
Daniel Ponce "El Latigo" gave a superb demonstration with his solo  
performance.  Everyone enjoyed his style and charisma.
 
Continue to come to La Ideal every Sunday and I promise more prizes coming  
soon and every month.  An announcement will be made shortly about the new  
program we have for you "to give your money back".
 
Thanks again and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to all.
 
Tango Forever,
 
Lydia Henson
Organizer - Milonga "La Ideal"
Miami, FL

_www.tangofantasy.com_ (http://www.tangofantasy.com)  
 
 
 
 
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)

From sarahpie at earthlink.net  Tue Dec 30 13:31:36 2008
From: sarahpie at earthlink.net (sarah)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:31:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Tango-L] shared ride for san diego festival
Message-ID: <13328696.1230661897763.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

i'm looking for someone to share a cab from the airport to the hotel for the san diego festival.  i arrive friday night at 7:30 pm.   
thanks,
sarah

From mcph+ at pitt.edu  Tue Dec 30 15:31:19 2008
From: mcph+ at pitt.edu (Alan McPherron)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:31:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Tango-L] unsub
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.63.0812301530510.5601@unixs1.cis.pitt.edu>

Please remove me from list.

    Alan McPherron,  mcph at pitt.edu

From dancetango at oaklodge.com  Tue Dec 30 22:06:45 2008
From: dancetango at oaklodge.com (dancetango@oaklodge.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:06:45 -0800
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1113.1228498046.9555.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.1113.1228498046.9555.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c96af4$d0e7b3a0$72b71ae0$@com>

I am looking to purchase Rosetta Stone language course and I have a choice
Of regular Spanish or Latin America Spanish.

What version of Spanish do they speak in Buenos Aires ?





From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Tue Dec 30 22:11:52 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:11:52 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
In-Reply-To: <000001c96af4$d0e7b3a0$72b71ae0$@com>
References: <mailman.1113.1228498046.9555.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<000001c96af4$d0e7b3a0$72b71ae0$@com>
Message-ID: <20081231031152.298570@gmx.net>


> I am looking to purchase Rosetta Stone language course and I have a choice
> Of regular Spanish or Latin America Spanish.
> 
> What version of Spanish do they speak in Buenos Aires ?


"castellano" ... argentinian spanish! 


Argentina lies in Latin America! So this should be the closest! :-) 


Christian

-- 
Sensationsangebot verl?ngert: GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL 
f?r nur 16,37 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K1308T4569a

From stermitz at tango.org  Tue Dec 30 23:30:25 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:30:25 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
In-Reply-To: <000001c96af4$d0e7b3a0$72b71ae0$@com>
References: <mailman.1113.1228498046.9555.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<000001c96af4$d0e7b3a0$72b71ae0$@com>
Message-ID: <497FD18C-A3B5-488F-910C-BD55DFC1F9B3@tango.org>

Neither.

On Dec 30, 2008, at 8:06 PM, <dancetango at oaklodge.com> wrote:

> I am looking to purchase Rosetta Stone language course and I have a  
> choice
> Of regular Spanish or Latin America Spanish.
>
> What version of Spanish do they speak in Buenos Aires ?


From Crrtango at aol.com  Wed Dec 31 01:26:46 2008
From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:26:46 EST
Subject: [Tango-L] re Spanish
Message-ID: <ce6.41d4e706.368c6aa6@aol.com>

 <I am looking to purchase Rosetta Stone language course and I have a choice 
of regular Spanish or Latin America Spanish.>

It depends on how they differentiate between them.   All Spanish speakers 
understand each other but the original Spanish of the conquistadors evolved 
isolated from Europe and doesn't sound like Spain anymore, sort of like American 
English and British English. There are even further distinctions from country to 
country within Latin America, but generally you would do best learning what 
they distinguish as Latin American.   

Charles


**************
One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL 
Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&amp;
icid=aolcom40vanity&amp;ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 12:54:05 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:54:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
Message-ID: <764418.3980.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Much more effective than the Rosetta stone (which won't work) would be
to find an Argentine near you and pay him/her to talk to you for a half hour
about the most simple but common subjects..his family, biography, activities..etc.
record it (digital uploadable is best) listen to it and then return with him to explain
the meaning to you....then, (here is the important part)..listen to the same recording
every day until you know and can anticipate every phrase...now, you have a good 
start... go back and do another half hour with this person...continue like this
and you will get something real that will eventualy give you the idiom without
you having to think and remember , translate it.
\http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homeimmersion/
Tom got it right 'Neither' is the only answer to such a question.
Here give a listen for yourself:?
?http://www.tn.com.ar/http://www.tn.com.ar/
?


      

From martin at waxman.net  Wed Dec 31 14:02:32 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:02:32 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
In-Reply-To: <764418.3980.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <764418.3980.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231140052.01e9c760@waxman.net>

Or read the daily edition of Minuto Uno for current usage of 
Castellano in Argentina.
http://www.minutouno.com/

Marty


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 31 15:29:09 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:29:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
Message-ID: <BAY105-W31960A2665466951A153D97E40@phx.gbl>


"Or read the daily edition of Minuto Uno for current usage of Castellano in Argentina.http://www.minutouno.com/ Marty"
 
Remember that the written Spanish is almost the same in all the countries that speak this language.  It is in the spoken language where some differences may be present.
 
This will not cause any problem with being understood. You will always be understood in any place.
 
  The differences inside regions of each country or from country to country may be less than in the USA going from New York to Boston or to Texas.
 
Many Europeans come to Argentina to study the language but whatever you study at home will get you on the right track to learn more and more. It is a long process.
 
I am fairly good (my native language is Spanish) with English, French and Italian, now I entertain myself trying to learn German.
 
I just finished reading a book (that has parallel text - German on one side and English on the other) 'Metamorphosis" by Franz Kafka. 
 
I recommend this type of reading at certain point, when you start understanding more.
 
Latin American Spanish may be closer to the way we speak in Argentina.  
 
Most of the 500 million people that speak Spanish do it as it is done in Latin America.
 
Best regards, Sergio
 

 
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008

From erueda1 at elp.rr.com  Wed Dec 31 15:45:47 2008
From: erueda1 at elp.rr.com (Edmundo)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:45:47 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
References: <BAY105-W31960A2665466951A153D97E40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <103C4D779F224E42831E6929BB31BC19@edmundoj4f34tz>

An important side of this topic that has not been mentioned is that in 
Argentina they speak Castilian Spanish peppered with Lunfardo, a type of 
Spanish slang. As a native Mexican, I have never had any problems being 
understood in my six visits to Buenos Aires.  Nevertheless, I have had 
embarrassing problems with some of the terminology as to what is acceptable 
in Mexico may have a totally different meaning in Argentina.  I have put my 
foot in my mouth many times.

MUNDO
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l at mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:29 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish


>
> "Or read the daily edition of Minuto Uno for current usage of Castellano 
> in Argentina.http://www.minutouno.com/ Marty"
>
> Remember that the written Spanish is almost the same in all the countries 
> that speak this language.  It is in the spoken language where some 
> differences may be present.
>
> This will not cause any problem with being understood. You will always be 
> understood in any place.
>
>  The differences inside regions of each country or from country to country 
> may be less than in the USA going from New York to Boston or to Texas.
>
> Many Europeans come to Argentina to study the language but whatever you 
> study at home will get you on the right track to learn more and more. It 
> is a long process.
>
> I am fairly good (my native language is Spanish) with English, French and 
> Italian, now I entertain myself trying to learn German.
>
> I just finished reading a book (that has parallel text - German on one 
> side and English on the other) 'Metamorphosis" by Franz Kafka.
>
> I recommend this type of reading at certain point, when you start 
> understanding more.
>
> Latin American Spanish may be closer to the way we speak in Argentina.
>
> Most of the 500 million people that speak Spanish do it as it is done in 
> Latin America.
>
> Best regards, Sergio
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 


From martin at waxman.net  Wed Dec 31 16:14:02 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:14:02 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  was Spanish - now Lunfardo
In-Reply-To: <103C4D779F224E42831E6929BB31BC19@edmundoj4f34tz>
References: <BAY105-W31960A2665466951A153D97E40@phx.gbl>
	<103C4D779F224E42831E6929BB31BC19@edmundoj4f34tz>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231160511.01e77438@waxman.net>

At 03:45 PM 12/31/2008, Edmundo wrote:
>An important side of this topic that has not been mentioned is that in
>Argentina they speak Castilian Spanish peppered with Lunfardo, a type of
>Spanish slang.

For those who want to dig deeper:

http://argentinastravel.com/1831/lunfardo-a-survivors-guide-to-slang-in-buenos-aires/

http://www.nacionesunidas.com/diccionarios/argentina.htm

http://www.elportaldeltango.com/dicciona.htm

http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/lexicon/lexicon.html

http://www.freelang.net/dictionary/lunfardo.php

http://www.transparent.com/spanish/lunfardo-buenos-aires-slang/

http://tripatlas.com/Lunfardo

Marty





From martin at waxman.net  Wed Dec 31 16:24:11 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:24:11 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Spanish - Argentine slang
In-Reply-To: <103C4D779F224E42831E6929BB31BC19@edmundoj4f34tz>
References: <BAY105-W31960A2665466951A153D97E40@phx.gbl>
	<103C4D779F224E42831E6929BB31BC19@edmundoj4f34tz>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231161831.01e80ba8@waxman.net>

At 03:45 PM 12/31/2008, Edmundo wrote:
>An important side of this topic that has not been mentioned is that in
>Argentina they speak Castilian Spanish peppered with Lunfardo, a type of
>Spanish slang.

Last updated for Argentina on 8 Dec 08
The main site also contains links to pages of slang from almost all, 
if not all, slang of Spanish speaking countries.
http://www.jergasdehablahispana.org/?pais=Argentina&tipobusqueda=1

Marty


From angelaml38 at aol.com  Wed Dec 31 16:30:33 2008
From: angelaml38 at aol.com (Angela Maria)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:30:33 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
Message-ID: <8CB39A625518B9E-D98-3CE@WEBMAIL-DZ09.sysops.aol.com>

Most commercial ?language learning programs have been ineffective as a tool for learning languages. One learns a language by living it and interacting with other people.
Spanish or castellano are well understood in all countries of L.A. and Spain. The difference of the?Spanish heard?is due to the? different cultural influences in the language, derived from Indian, European, and African ancestry; in addition to the jerga?or coloquial language as in the?case of Lunfardo in?Argentina.? Furthermore, while traveling through Spanish speaking countries, you will have some humorus experiences?as to?the meaning of some words due to their own regionalism.These differences one can also?notice in French while in France, Switzerland or Canada.

Learning languages requires a lot of listening, being open to make mistakes and have fun with it.I suggest a language program with teacher:group interaction. The program should consist of phonemic awareness; basic grammatic?structures; meaningful conversational situations to improve comprehension and vocabulary that will be apply to your travel experience and connection with the culture.

In addition, you may want to take advantage of the media and the Internet. Listen to a radio station; read the newspapers or magazines on topics of interest?with prior knowledge and watch Spanish movies or a novela (most come from Venezuela and Mexico).? Most important, take advantage of Spanish speaking?dancers at the milongas and talk to them in Spanish. It will might just make you laugh on the dance floor!

Felicidades en el Ano Nuevo!

Angela Maria
NYC


From angelaml38 at aol.com  Wed Dec 31 16:45:31 2008
From: angelaml38 at aol.com (Angela Maria)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:45:31 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Spanish
Message-ID: <8CB39A83CCA46E1-D98-450@WEBMAIL-DZ09.sysops.aol.com>


Saludos!
Why does my post have all those irrelevant question marks all over the place?
This is the second time that it occurs to me and would like to know what am I doing wrong? Is there a specific program for one to use to avoid this problem?

Gracias,

Angela Maria
NYC