From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 00:22:46 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
Message-ID: <276003.47062.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I disagree with most of what Lois Donnay wrote in her latest message and was 
planning a response until I saw that Sergio had already replied and said most 
of what I was also going to say.
I quite often assist my teacher in her classes and my experience is that most 
beginner students are happier and more comfortable learning in an open embrace. 
Once they gain some confidence and experience, it becomes quite natural to 
progress to a close embrace, if they so choose. This is also my experience from 
many classes in BsAs and I think that to do it the other way around would be 
problematic.
I now realise that Lois' post was just another veiled attempt to criticise those 
who do not dance tango in the style that she prefers.
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com>
> 
> 
> My experience as a student and as a teacher is exactly the opposite to yours: I 
> learned Traditional Tango (Villa Urquiza) first.? The type of tango that it is 
> danced by most well known tango instructors (Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Mingo 
> Pugliese, Todaro, Bravo, Carlos Copello, Diego Di Falco, Nito y Elba, Carlos 
> Copes, etc, etc) . 
> 
> Traditional Tango has a close embrace and an open embrace, the greatest number 
> of tango skills, all the tango embellishments and figures,which can be utilized 
> both for social and for stage dancing. It also has the greatest number of 
> leading possibilities, including what you call "bad habits" such as leading with 
> arms and hands.? When you lead complex moves you frequently use hands, or arms, 
> or thighs, or legs, of feet.
> 
> So to go from this style to Milonguero is very easy.? On the other hand 
> Milonguero has a very limited number of choreographic moves ( a few walking 
> steps,
> back ochos, ocho milonguero, a couple of easy turns, and maybe a sacada) , It? 
> only uses close embrace, leads only with the torso.
> 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 00:59:29 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada
Message-ID: <696436.48719.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Man, I'm glad I'm not a teacher trying to explain a figure on this list. Not with 
critics like Larry around and?just waiting to pounce. Personally, I thought JPS 
did a good job in explaining the most common and popular?form of Volcada and?
I've little doubt that he explains it and its different forms?in more detail during his 
classes. It certainly didn't find it ... "totally misrepresents what a volcada is" and 
I didn't find it ... "confusing".?
Larry's rambling comments, on the other hand, would, I am sure, confuse those 
who do not already know what is a Volcada.?
Btw?Larry, you recently confessed to not knowing the difference between an 
'open' step and a 'crossed' step. I did take some time and trouble to explain that?
but?received no feedback. I hope you found my comments useful.
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> 
> The discussion of the volcada which Jean-Pierre Sighe pointed out 
> http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol11_july08.html
> totally misrepresents what a volcada is (as well as being confusing in other 
> ways).
> 



      



From jpsighe at sighes.com  Fri Aug  1 01:34:07 2008
From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:34:07 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada
References: <20080731.201711.28505.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <010801c8f398$3f2e0be0$030fa8c0@Desktop1>

Larry,

There shouldn't be any confusion about what I wrote.
Your definition of Volcada is absolutely correct. I am describing what is 
known these days as the figure called "Volcada" (that is the move indeed 
executed over and over with the wide front boleo ending in a cruzada. I am 
focusing on its proper construction. The premise of my remark is simple : 
There cannot be a lean if the man has not executed the proper tent. The tent 
by itself is an important element to have if one wants to have the lady lean 
+ execute a wide front boleo.

Of course, there are many  variations on the theme, if one is creative.

Thank you for your point well taken.

Jean-Pierre S.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






----- Original Message ----- 
From: <larrynla at juno.com>
To: <tango-L at mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:17 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada


> The discussion of the volcada which Jean-Pierre Sighe pointed out
> http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol11_july08.html
> totally misrepresents what a volcada is (as well as being confusing in 
> other ways).
>
> Volcada comes from the verb meaning to tip over, or pull off balance. It 
> is an extreme lean. That is all. Not an extreme lean + a wide front boleo 
> ending in a cruzada, as people might think because the three are often put 
> together.
>
> Dancers can simply do a volcada and then recover to a normal embrace. Or 
> they can hold the carpa (literally tent, an upside-down V stance) for a 
> few beats.  Or do a drag. Or a carousel. Or several other actions. 
> Including the popular wide front boleo ending in a cross.
>
> there are lots of variations on the woman's front boleo. One is to make it 
> an amague, a kick straight back instead of to the side wrapping around the 
> woman's knee. Nor need it need to end in a cruzada, as the article 
> suggests. The front boleo could lead into a normal boleo, followed by 
> another front boleo. And finally into the woman stepping straight back 
> with the free foot instead of a cross in front.
>
> If anybody cares to talk more about volcadas, we might talk about how to 
> lead into it. But this message is long enough already.
>
> Larry de Los Angeles
>
> PS The volcada is not a nuevo tango move. It was old in 1989 when I 
> started tango, long before anyone heard the term nuevo tango used to label 
> a way of dancing.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 02:09:00 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 06:09:00 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Ireland
Message-ID: <20080731.230900.29705.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

In mid- to late-September I plan to spend two weeks in Ireland, taking photos and getting impressions and consulting various libraries about life in Ireland in the mid-1800s.

This will help me when I rewrite a fantasy novel and its sequel which take place there. I believe that the more fantastic a premise the more it needs a realistic background, and in the rewrite I want to fix any problems and enhance descriptions (not just by adding details but also streamlining the writing).

But having danced tango almost twenty years now I really want to go to as many milongas as I can, and meet people from a country that has ever since I remember seemed like my true home.

I'll be in Dublin and Belfast for a weekend each, and a couple of days in Cork and Galway during the week.

Are there any pointers people can give about tango in Ireland?  And any other info that would make the trip easier?  (That last you should probably email me personally, but the first might help others who plan to visit Ireland.)

Laer Carroll
http://shapechangers.wordpress.com



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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  1 02:19:26 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:19:26 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada
In-Reply-To: <010801c8f398$3f2e0be0$030fa8c0@Desktop1>
References: <20080731.201711.28505.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>
	<010801c8f398$3f2e0be0$030fa8c0@Desktop1>
Message-ID: <4892AAEE.3090203@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Jean-Pierre Sighe wrote:
> The premise of my remark is simple : 
> There cannot be a lean if the man has not executed the proper tent. The tent 
> by itself is an important element to have if one wants to have the lady lean 
> + execute a wide front boleo.
>   
I had no idea that there was any such move as a "tent" in tango. You 
mean tent as in the woman being the canvas and the common axis being the 
pole or what???



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 02:40:47 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] The Volcada
Message-ID: <292288.26777.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Astrid,
It's the Gavito Lean. Some call it a Carpa or tent, others call it a Puente or bridge,
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Astrid <astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp>
> >? 
> I had no idea that there was any such move as a "tent" in tango. You 
> mean tent as in the woman being the canvas and the common axis being the 
> pole or what???
> 
> 



      



From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 05:54:16 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:54:16 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
Message-ID: <20080801.025416.12344.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>

Anne Atheling asked me to give some links to videos showing volcadas. So I did a YouTube search which returned 625 videos. After about an hour and maybe 30 videos I gave up. Even the tutorials don't help. Why? 
Because they don't break the volcada combinations down. (Well, two did. 
Poor camera angles and terrible sound made it imposssible to learn from 
them.)

So here is a verbal description. Let's see if I can make this clear and 
painless.
________________________________________________________________________
I, the leader, step left.
---I, THE FOLLOWER, STEP RIGHT.

I stop, legs apart with right foot in place.
---I STOP, LEGS APART, LEFT FOOT IN PLACE.

I twist my upper body leftward to lead a backward ocho, but stop.
---I BEGIN A BACKWARD OCHO BUT STOP. MY FREE LEFT FOOT IS BEHIND MY
---SUPPORTING RIGHT FOOT.

I firm up my embrace, and straighten my spine just a bit.
---I MAKE SURE MY TORSO IS STRAIGHT AND STRONG. I MAY TUCK MY LEFT FOOT
---BEHIND MY RIGHT ANKLE. 

(If I, the follower, have not experienced this lead I know something 
special is bout to happen but I don't know what. I likely will not 
strengthen my torso. I may feel a touch of anxiety.)

I step back with my right foot, pulling her toward me.
---I LEAN FORWARD, RESTING MY UPPER BODY ON HIS.

(If I have not experienced this situation before I panic. I step 
forward with my free left foot. I likely will also step forward with 
my newly freed right foot. We both end up embarrassed and/or angry.)
________________________________________________________________________

Often nowadays the man will now lead a front boleo ending in a cruzada. 
But even if he does not many women will try to do this boleo+cruzada 
combination.

BECAUSE SOME TEACHER STUPIDLY TAUGHT THE VOLCADA+BOLEO+CRUZADA AS A 
SINGLE UNIT!!!

Teachers should teach the volcada as a separate, simple figure. Why? 
Because it lets students create several complex figures. Here are two.

________________________________________________________________________
I walk around my partner's pivot point. This is a carousel.
---I DO NOTHING EXCEPT CONTINUE LEANING ON HIM.

________________________________________________________________________
I walk backward. This is a drag.
---I DO NOTHING EXCEPT CONTINUE LEANING ON HIM.
________________________________________________________________________

Lastly I should say that the beginning and ending of the volcada has 
several variations.

Instead of the man beginning by stepping sideways left he could step 
forward left or backward left. (Or side/forward/backward right.)

At the end rather than stepping back right he could step side right to 
briefly sandwich his partner's feet, then step back LEFT. Either way he 
leaves his legs apart. 

Alternatively he could add an additional backward step that brings his 
feet together.
________________________________________________________________________

Some cautions for men. Do a half-turn before doing volcadas - this lets 
you see those further back in the flow and abort a volcada before they 
come nearer and endanger your partner and your pride. If your are 
unsure how expert your partner is with volcadas you should make the 
first lean a small one, then work up to bigger ones. If she does not 
straighten and strengthen her torso don't try volcadas. This is no 
exageration - she could seriously injure her back.

A caution for women. If you have any problem with the lean, object. 
Give some excuse (such as a hurt back) if that makes you feel better.
You can indeed injure your back doing volcadas.


Larry de Los Angeles


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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  1 06:33:05 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:33:05 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <20080801.025416.12344.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080801.025416.12344.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <4892E661.4080008@ruby.plala.or.jp>

>
> A caution for women. If you have any problem with the lean, object. 
> Give some excuse (such as a hurt back) if that makes you feel better.
> You can indeed injure your back doing volcadas.
> Larry de Los Angeles
>   
Indeed. And that is why this move, and I mean, especially this move, 
should never be taught over the internet and noone should attempt to try 
this on a woman after only reading about it on the internet. Fact is, 
that a badly led volcada is the most uncomfortable moves of all for a 
woman, it is not only painful but indeed poses a health risk as Larry 
already mentioned above, even though he makes it look as though it would 
always be the woman who has a problem with the lean. A man with bad 
balance, poor axis, little strength, bad posture, shorter and/or lighter 
than the woman, wrong alignment in the embrace (the volcada needs some 
special adjustment you have to know beforehand) - if you have one or 
several of these qualities in that list- please don't do it. It feels 
awful, believe me.
On the other hand, a man with enough skill and a trained body and of 
reasonable weight (I say this because I live in Japan where people are 
generally small and slight) can treat the woman to a beautiful 
expreience. But then, this man would not sit in front of his computer, 
trying to learn this move with the help of larrynla's written 
instructions. So please, train in class, or don't do it. You will spare 
your partners a lot of aggravation and possibly moemtns of panic, 
injuries, like pulled muscles, wrenched backs, sqeezed disks in the 
spine and such. AND she might never dance with you again and tell all 
her friends about this, too.

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 11:44:03 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:44:03 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
Message-ID: <BAY105-W460C48EEE4004A3C4751D2977F0@phx.gbl>



I always wondered what is wrong with a well executed lead done utilizing or invoving as a complement other body parts than the torso.

Do you have an opinion in this respect?

Notice that I said "well executed" lead. So please do not include 'bad habits' of people that do not know how to lead.

Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
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From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 12:03:16 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W460C48EEE4004A3C4751D2977F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <690729.74300.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


> I always wondered what is wrong with a well executed lead
> done utilizing or invoving as a complement other body parts
> than the torso.
> 
> Do you have an opinion in this respect?
> 
> Notice that I said "well executed" lead. So
> please do not include 'bad habits' of people that do
> not know how to lead.
> 

On placing my arms and hands in different places:

Early on, I had a very stiff torsoe.  Some very valuable instruction was to place my hands and arms on various places on my follower's body.  This worked wonders to free my mind from doing everything the same way all the time.  Imagine, for example, placing your right hand on her left shoulder.  Lead from your center, but, notice how much more aware you are of yourself and of her motion.

On leading with my belly:

My left foot has been hurting for years, now.  At times, I will take one dance and let my belly be the connection point.  Now, I am thin, so, I have to go out of my way to make it more pronounced.  But, (1) it takes a lot of pressure off my foot and (2) my partner loves the change.  Actually, it makes me more aware of leading a more dramatic molinete.




      

From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com  Fri Aug  1 13:20:44 2008
From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:20:44 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <mailman.789.1217607492.12997.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.789.1217607492.12997.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <489345EC.8020405@lavidacondeby.com>

I am a follower and I will tell you why I prefer the torso to hands.  
Leads with hands are annoying.  I can be dancing with a man who has nice 
posture and a good sense of music and then there are those hands 
"guiding" me through the dance.  Leading with the torso at least for me 
is a much more natural progression of the movement.  It does not 
interfere with a walk, giro, or ocho.  When hands are used no matter how 
good the lead is, it is never smooth.  The embrace is just that...an 
embrace.  With good posture the force of the torso moves the body 
smoothly and naturally through the dance.  With hands it cannot be 
smooth.  AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot 
machine. Horreeeebllllaaaayyyyyy.

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  1 13:32:03 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:32:03 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <489345EC.8020405@lavidacondeby.com>
References: <mailman.789.1217607492.12997.tango-l@mit.edu>
	<489345EC.8020405@lavidacondeby.com>
Message-ID: <48934893.8080207@ruby.plala.or.jp>

I agree. Hands maybe helpful for executing very complicated figures in 
open embrace but in salon, they quickly throw you out of your tango trance.

Deby Novitz wrote:
>  The embrace is just that...an 
> embrace.  With good posture the force of the torso moves the body 
> smoothly and naturally through the dance.  With hands it cannot be 
> smooth.  AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot 
> machine. Horreeeebllllaaaayyyyyy.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>   


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 13:41:06 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:41:06 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Message-ID: <BLU119-W5355A2ACCBC711E99A5922917F0@phx.gbl>


FWIW, my belief is that the physical aspect of the lead comes through the physical connection.  

Thus, in close embrace, since the physical connection is via the torso, hands and arms are not needed and perhaps 
not desirable.

In open embrace, the physical connection is via the hands and arms.  Thus the physical aspect of the lead can totally come from WELL EXECUTED lead with the arms or hands.  The problem here is "well executed".  Using a body lead 
insures that the lead is asking the follow to move in a manner consistent with how the lead's body is moving.  It almost automatically eliminates rough, jerky, abrupt movements.  For a lead to have adequate sensitivity and control to lead as smoothly with hands or arms requires a lot of skill.  Perhaps more than most, but certainly not all, possess.

It is also the case that leading with the hands need not include a constant guiding of every motion of the follow any more than a torso lead includes constant guiding.  That again is a skill issue, and not an absolute. 

Just M2CW

Cheers

D. David Thorn

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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 13:41:15 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <489345EC.8020405@lavidacondeby.com>
Message-ID: <570861.52129.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm with Deby.  Most leads who use hands either over-lead or under-lead. All the twisting and pushing of my hand does not make my feet move.  But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another.  I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be.  And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table. 

Nancy


--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Deby Novitz <dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com> wrote:

> From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
> To: tango-l at mit.edu
> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:20 PM
> I am a follower and I will tell you why I prefer the torso
> to hands.  
> Leads with hands are annoying.  I can be dancing with a man
> who has nice 
> posture and a good sense of music and then there are those
> hands 
> "guiding" me through the dance.  Leading with the
> torso at least for me 
> is a much more natural progression of the movement.  It
> does not 
> interfere with a walk, giro, or ocho.  When hands are used
> no matter how 
> good the lead is, it is never smooth.  The embrace is just
> that...an 
> embrace.  With good posture the force of the torso moves
> the body 
> smoothly and naturally through the dance.  With hands it
> cannot be 
> smooth.  AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked
> like a slot 
> machine. Horreeeebllllaaaayyyyyy.
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From tangopeer at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 13:41:16 2008
From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <489345EC.8020405@lavidacondeby.com>
Message-ID: <135376.46195.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

With hands it
> cannot be 
> smooth.  AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked
> like a slot 
> machine. Horreeeebllllaaaayyyyyy.


I think a follower's input will far out-weigh a leader's input on THIS subject!  I wouldn't want my follower to feel horreeeebllllaaaayyyyyy about MY lead!  ;o)  My example, in my previous post, was just an exercise.

Thank you, Deby.  (Watch out for the leaders with a pocket full of quarters!)






      

From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 13:40:36 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:40:36 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Message-ID: <20080801.104036.22687.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Jack Dylan wrote --------> I [took] some time and trouble to explain 
[the difference between an 'open' step and a 'crossed' step] but 
received no feedback. I hope you found my comments useful.

They were useful.  Thanks!

Part of the difficulty understanding what open and crossed mean is the 
terminolgy (in English, anyway). Naveira etc. are not talking about an 
open STEP, or crossed STEP, which would refer to a step or a stance of 
one person.  They are talking about the relation between two people.

(A crossed STEP is when a person crosses one foot in front of or behind 
another foot. Step 5 of the 8CB is a crossed step.  When a man leads a 
molinete he may cross one foot behind another so he can do a half turn 
in place while she walks around him.)

I have been mulling over just what good it does to know the difference 
between an open and crossed relation.  Let's try the 8CB.

Step 1.  An open relation.  I (the leader) can do step 2 as a sacada on 
her trailing right foot.  This might help lead a parada or a boleo, for 
instance.

Step 2.  An open relation.  I can do step 3 as a sacada instead of the 
usual step 3.
 
Step 3.  A crossed relation.  I can do step 4 as a sacada, but my 
partner and I will have trouble.  (We can still do a figure beginning 
in a sacada, but to do it smoothly we both must be quite expert and 
have a lot of body control.)

That's what I've figured out so far.

I should mention that years ago when Fabian Salas began teaching in Los 
Angeles I took all his classes.  The first few he discussed 
open/crossed and other parts of his and Naveira's system.  Later he 
quit doing that.  I suspect their system is good for thinking up new 
ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing.

Larry de Los Angeles



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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 13:56:20 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:56:20 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Message-ID: <BLU119-W1773C7A657E263E7A4CD77917F0@phx.gbl>


Larry wrote:
>> I suspect their system [crossed vs open]is good for thinking up new
>> ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing.

I beg to differ. Generally, I can not tell you which (right or left) foot my follow is on, but I try to NEVER loose track of
our body relationship as defined by 1) crossed vs parallel feet and 2) whether my follow's position is cross or open.
Those two bits of information are what allow me to dance improvisationally, creating movements new to me on the
fly, and to go beyond the simple rhythmic modulations and pattern modifications that often pass for improvisation.

Cheers

David

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From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  1 14:00:27 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:00:27 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <570861.52129.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <570861.52129.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48934F3B.7060506@ruby.plala.or.jp>

NANCY wrote:
>  But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another.  I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be. 
yes, me too. Sometimes it surprises them, but they seem to understand 
and it gives them a chance to learn. If nothing at all works from there, 
I kind of quietly ocho back to square one to help them untangle their mess.
>  And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table.
>   
good one! Not that they necessarily get them message.


From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Fri Aug  1 14:00:43 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:00:43 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <570861.52129.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <570861.52129.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48934F4B.9060909@ruby.plala.or.jp>

NANCY wrote:
>  But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another.  I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be. 
yes, me too. Sometimes it surprises them, but they seem to understand 
and it gives them a chance to learn. If nothing at all works from there, 
I kind of quietly ocho back to square one to help them untangle their mess.
>  And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table.
>   
good one! Not that they necessarily get the message.


From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 14:57:24 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 18:57:24 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
Message-ID: <20080801.115724.26929.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com>

Re: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using one's arms or hands to
help lead a figure. What often is wrong is HOW some people use those -
as a primary lead rather than a seconary "helping" one.

There is a hierarchy of leads. Most important is the upper torso, for 
overall direction in which the couple is to move, and to begin turns.

Arms supplement this.  For instance, if the man adds a few double- or
triple-steps to the basic slow-slow rhythm. He would tighten his
embrace noticeably to indicate she should duplicate his rhythm change.
Or loosen his embrace (or even back off from a close connection) so
that she will know to continue the basic rhythm.

Hands should be used sparingly, but only novices claim they should
never ever be used whatsoever.  An example where they are needed is in
leading a parada. A usual parada opens the embrace.  The man's right
hand or lower arm presses against her back to stop her.  His left hand
pushes lightly against her right hand in opposition to the lead on her
back.  The two lock her into the stop.

A foot lead is sometimes used with the parada.  It is unneeded if the
parada is properly lead.  Teaching it may do more harm than good if it
takes attention away from leading it properly.

Foot leads are the main leads for some movements.  Sacadas are an
example.  Though I find it better to use my mid-ankle or mid-thigh
(but never one's ankle or knee - they are too hard).  I can lead
closer to my partner's body and don't need to look down to be sure my foot is placed properly.

(Speaking of looking down.  The man should not tilt his head.  This 
throws his center of gravity forward when it would better be centered 
in the middle of his torso.  Also, it cuts down his peripheral vision.)

Larry de Los Angeles


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From martin at waxman.net  Fri Aug  1 16:15:52 2008
From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:15:52 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080801160859.01f0f1d8@waxman.net>

Below is my current correspondence with U of Oregon.
We might be able to save the archives.

=========================================
From: "Jon K. Miyake" <miyake at uoregon.edu>
To: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>, sghuter at uoregon.edu
Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive

I (Marty)wrote:
Jon,
Does a backup of the Tango-L archive exist on
backup tapes or servers?
If so, perhaps it can be transferred to another
host that Tango group can set up.
I would hate to lose all that history.
Thanks for any help or info you can provide.

Jon replied:
If necessary it can probably be archived as a
tar or zip file and made available.

But as I am not the administrator for the
system nor familiar with how the archive is
being made available this is only technical
speculation on my part.

My colleague, who is responsible for the system
hosting pythia.uoregon.edu, has Lucy Lynch's current
contact information.
I forwarded your initial request to him to pass
along to Lucy.  He has been cc'd on this e-mail as well.
=====================================
From: Steven Huter <sghuter at uoregon.edu>
To: "Jon K. Miyake" <miyake at uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive

hello martin

lucy is now aware of this, and we're working with her on it. some 
recent upgrades to limestone may have caused this hiccup, so we'll 
take care of it with lucy. she is out of the country at IETF right 
now, so it may take a day or two.

steve






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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 16:29:28 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080801160859.01f0f1d8@waxman.net>
Message-ID: <979341.82488.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Martin,

   I contacted Lucy directly ( with a little Google search) and she is on it.  I don't think she realized we had lost the Server space with her departure from U. of Oregon. She will let us know when the Archives are restored.  I copied this info to Shahrukh, the list Owner, so I think we should let the principles handle it from here on out unless we need to find another home for the Archives. 

Nancy


--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net> wrote:

> From: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives
> To: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 4:15 PM
> Below is my current correspondence with U of Oregon.
> We might be able to save the archives.
> 
> =========================================
> From: "Jon K. Miyake" <miyake at uoregon.edu>
> To: Martin Waxman <martin at waxman.net>,
> sghuter at uoregon.edu
> Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive
> 
> I (Marty)wrote:
> Jon,
> Does a backup of the Tango-L archive exist on
> backup tapes or servers?
> If so, perhaps it can be transferred to another
> host that Tango group can set up.
> I would hate to lose all that history.
> Thanks for any help or info you can provide.
> 
> Jon replied:
> If necessary it can probably be archived as a
> tar or zip file and made available.
> 
> But as I am not the administrator for the
> system nor familiar with how the archive is
> being made available this is only technical
> speculation on my part.
> 
> My colleague, who is responsible for the system
> hosting pythia.uoregon.edu, has Lucy Lynch's current
> contact information.
> I forwarded your initial request to him to pass
> along to Lucy.  He has been cc'd on this e-mail as
> well.
> =====================================
> From: Steven Huter <sghuter at uoregon.edu>
> To: "Jon K. Miyake" <miyake at uoregon.edu>
> Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive
> 
> hello martin
> 
> lucy is now aware of this, and we're working with her
> on it. some 
> recent upgrades to limestone may have caused this hiccup,
> so we'll 
> take care of it with lucy. she is out of the country at
> IETF right 
> now, so it may take a day or two.
> 
> steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
> Database version: 5.10380e
> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


      

From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 19:18:10 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 16:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
In-Reply-To: <BLU119-W5355A2ACCBC711E99A5922917F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <954382.4598.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Let's be more specific.  It's not the use of the hands that's the problem.  It's the TIMING.  It's when the man is impatient and doesn't respect my timing that I feel that he's pushing or pulling me, even if he is trying not to use his hands.  Imagine a hoola-hoop being placed around the woman, if the man tugs on the hoop before she is ready to move, she's going to feel pulled.  If the man tugs on the hoop when she is moving, she's not going to feel pulled.  So it's not the use of the hands.  It's about listening to your partner and sensing when she is ready to move.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Fri, 8/1/08, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
> To: "tango-l" <tango-l at mit.edu>
> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:41 PM
> FWIW, my belief is that the physical aspect of the lead
> comes through the physical connection.  
> 
> Thus, in close embrace, since the physical connection is
> via the torso, hands and arms are not needed and perhaps 
> not desirable.



      

From donnay at donnay.net  Fri Aug  1 19:32:04 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 18:32:04 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
In-Reply-To: <276003.47062.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <276003.47062.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9949B77DA41A44E18D1BF8DFF6CB76E3@gatewaylaptop>

What Jack says is a little mean, and certainly divisive, considering I was trying to make 
peace by defending the much-maligned "close embrace people" who supposedly are the only 
ones who criticize other dance styles. So I'm going to try to defend myself.

I dance, and teach, many styles regularly - Canyengue, milonguero, salon, open, nuevo. I 
don't mind people dancing the style they and their partner prefer and are able to execute 
successfully with others on the floor. But they must be good at it, so they don't risk 
ruining another's dance experience. I think we all agree on that.

Even good dancers can be seduced by the allure of that cool move they just learned, even 
though it doesn't fit on the floor and their lead is a little tenuous. And good teachers 
can be seduced by the demands of their students, asking for colgadas when they can't walk 
yet. (Would you like to know how much trouble I got in when I stood in for another teacher, 
and instead of furthering the student's education on single axis turns, I said "let's learn 
to walk first"?) And we can all be tempted to blame the other guy on the floor, who is 
always using too much space. And we can all be tempted to lump them into a particular 
style. We have a guy here in town who constantly uses too much space and bumps into others. 
Surprisingly, he always blames the other guy. Then there's the imitators who never take 
lessons but do the move they saw anyway. Ewwww!

So, if that is true that only Close Embrace people criticize, why is it that Traditional 
tango, Nuevo, canyengue people don't criticize people who dance in close? Are they just so 
much more tolerant? Is there nothing to complain about? (BTW, I've heard some of my 
favorite dancers derisively called "floor walkers" because they prefer close.)

Yes, I defend my teaching style, which I did not come up with on my own. I studied the 
techniques of the most successful teachers I knew - those who put the most good dancers on 
the floor in a short amount of time. It's working here, too.

Lois

Sergio states: Now the most interesting thing is : Those that dance Traditional tango, 
Nuevo, canyengue, never criticize anyone else.
Those that dance all the styles never criticize anyone but...
The ones that dance close embrace all the time, milonguero, have multiple problems 
expressed in many forms."


>I now realise that Lois' post was just another veiled attempt to criticise those
>who do not dance tango in the style that she prefers.
>Jack




From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 19:57:20 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 23:57:20 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with arm and hands
Message-ID: <BAY105-W1877D04801785DBB024177977F0@phx.gbl>



Thank you for the many answers to the list and by private mail.  Mostly to the ladies for giving their valuable opinion as being recipient of those leads.


Most good dancers and tango teachers that I have known ( Traditional tango, Stage tango, Canyengue) use their torso, arms, hands, thighs, legs, feet to lead.

I personally can say (from dancing or taking lessons from them) or looking at their instructional videos, that Osvaldo Zotto, Lampazo, Carlos Copelo, Jorge Firpo, Mingo and Pablo Pugliese, Puppy Costello, Nito and Elba, Orlando Paiva, Diego and Carolina, and many others belong in this group. See Diego Di Falco video " Technique for the follower".

This form of leading was the norm for those styles and still is.  The lead is subtle, light, (like a feather touch), invisible, imperceptible to anyone except the follower.  It is necessary to lead certain figures or moves in an open embrace .

Milonguero style uses "only" the torso to lead. Those that only know that style created the misconception that any other form of leading is "a bad habit".

This is not so.    The ladies complains are in reference to "poor leading" and not about the type of lead per se.

If in milonga, for instance, I lead a series of chasees ( single or double time) to the woman's right, I may slightly and at the proper time, lift my right hand on her back to indicate this, this can also be indicated by a slight upward movement of the torso. this is done in American Waltz as well.

If I am traveling backwards, I may slightly lift my rt. hand on the ladies back to indicate that she should lock one foot behind the other , one or more times.

I may force her to cross a leg by slightly touching her leg with mine.  I may stop her movements by placing my foot by hers, parallel or perpendicularly to hers.

I may prevent her to cross by placing my foot by hers.  I may indicate to her to dragg my foot by placing mine by hers and showing an intention of movement with my torso.

I May lead a low boleo by slightly lowering my torso and/or my right hand on her back. I may lead a high boleo by slightly lifting my torso or rt. hand.

I may lead an amague by over rotating her or by using my torso and rt. hand to change the direction of her front cross.

I indicate a jump by lowering myself and lifting.   I indicate to her to lift and wrap her leg around my waist by lifting my rt. hand on her back at the proper time.

These are just a few examples. There are many, many more.  I can lift her foot with mine for a mid boleo or a bicicleta, etc.

Summary:  Tango technique is different in the different styles.  

Best regards, Sergio
 
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From windycitytango at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 20:01:09 2008
From: windycitytango at yahoo.com (PJ Grant)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-C:  Topics announced for classes on Sun.,
	Aug. 3 with El Pulpo in Chicago
Message-ID: <864516.93789.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Norberto "El Pulpo" Esbrez and Stephanie Lepeu will teach two 1.5 hour classes on Sunday, August 3 beginning at 1:00p at Cafe Duvall (2257 W 23rd Place, Chicago IL 60618). The classes will build on concepts previously introduced although it is not necessary to have
taken any of the prior classes or workshops. The Sunday classes will be followed by the Opposites Attract practica (4:30-7:00p) hosted by Phoebe J Grant and Jacquline Cahill. The topics for Sunday's classes with Pulpo at Cafe Duvall are: Back Sacadas at 1:00p and En-ganchos at 2:45p. The cost of the workshops is $20 each or both for $30. The Opposities Attract Practica following the classes will be $8 for those attending either class.
Pulpo and Stephanie also have time for private lessons while they are in Chicago. New 'user-friendly' rates have been announced: $110 for a   couple; $90 to study with Pulpo; and, $70 to study with Stephanie. These rates are quoted per hour and there is a $10 per hour discount for each paid workshop taken last weekend (limit, 1 discount per each hour).Pulpo and Stephanie also have time for private lessons while they are in Chicago. New 'user-friendly' rates have been announced: $110 for a couple; $90 to study with Pulpo; and, $70 to study with Stephanie. These rates are quoted per hour and there is a $10 per hour discount for each paid workshop taken last weekend (limit, 1 discount per each hour).
For more information or reservations, contact:
Phoebe J. (PJ) Grant of WindyCityTango, Unlimited
312-60TANGO (312-608-2646) cell - text msgs OK
WindyCityTango@ yahoo.com (for tango business messages)
TangoLadyChicago@ yahoo.com (for immediate communication)
Promoter, Teacher, Performer, Sponsor of Argentine Tango 


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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 20:34:53 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 00:34:53 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Criticizing other style dancers
Message-ID: <BAY105-W30B46AAFA16172D627E1CE977E0@phx.gbl>



Lois asks:

"So, if that is true that only Close Embrace people criticize, why is it that Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue people don't criticize people who dance in close? Are they just so much more tolerant? Is there nothing to complain about? (BTW, I've heard some of my favorite dancers derisively called "floor walkers" because they prefer close."

Some possible explanations: 

In Argentina in general, tangueros are conscious that everyone has his own style and they respect each others idiosyncrasies. They get upset with those that use too much space, or bump into other couples. Mostly foreign visitors, because most Argentine beginners do not dance at the milongas till they know how to navigate the floor.

In the USA, in great part due to indoctrination by itinerant instructors, dancers of milonguero style have been very critical and intolerant of people that dance differently.

I use to discuss  these topics for days, members that were the most dogmatic and argumentative remain silent now, due to one thing :  videos in youtube can prove that they are wrong very easily. Time may have made them a little wiser as well.

The beginner milonguero dancer knows how to navigate the floor and does not disturb anyone around them. He is not going to show off, .  He can dance in any corner without any problem, therefore he cannot dance out of place.  

The beginner dancer of other styles,   if poorly instructed in the art of using the floor without disturbing other dancers, can be a big problem;  originating all sort of criticism not only from the Milonguero style dancer but also from the ones that dance the same style they do.

Trini brought up something extremely important in leadin:  The proper time to start and to end the lead.

Best regards, Sergio






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From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  1 20:54:26 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with arm and hands & teaching
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W1877D04801785DBB024177977F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <568291.124.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Since I can only post 1 more time today, I'll have to kill 2 birds with 1 stone:

On Teaching:

My experience mirrors that of Lois and my preferred teaching style starts beginners off in close-embrace, even though I used to teach in open-embrace.  However, there are too many factors in the teaching process to make generalizations about what is the best way to teach, which varies by student, anyway.  I mean, if your close-embrace sucks, then you're not going to teach well in close-embrace, right?  There's another couple in our community that have taught close for years, but they've yet to produced a single successful student by themselves.  So let's not confuse dance style with teaching skills.  

Jack might be misattributing the student's comfort level with dance style.  It could very well be that the teacher is not effectively analyzing the needs of the students or presenting concepts in such a way that students are comfortable dancing close.  We can't tell without seeing the actual class.  My own theory is that those of us who prefer to teach in close might spend more time learning how to teach than those who teach in open because we know that close-embrace does present additional challenges.  But I could simply be biased.


--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Milonguero style uses "only" the torso to lead.
> Those that only know that style created the misconception
> that any other form of leading is "a bad habit".

Actually, Sergio, it's not the milonguero style that has promoted that concept.  I recall that concept of not using the hands as an instruction when I started in salon many moons ago.  It's certainly not Susana Miller.  She once made a big point about using the hands in a workshop and used the analogy of picking up a water bottle and placing it elsewhere.  

So, I say that it is salon teachers that propogated that belief and it's a useful belief to have and practice until one is ready for a more sophisticated way of leading.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU  Fri Aug  1 21:23:05 2008
From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:23:05 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Archives and Lucy Lynch's whereabouts?
Message-ID: <4893B6F9.6010303@mit.edu>

Thanks for the initiatives. I do have Lucy's contacts (thanks to Nancy 
Ingle), and the archives are back online. I am following up to make sure 
it is preserved. If necessary it can be moved to the server on which the 
Tango-L information page (www.tango-L.com) is hosted, but it is not just 
a question of moving files but also of installing the scripts that 
implement the gateway, so stay tuned.

Shahrukh

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  2 04:41:09 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:41:09 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W253D302710DB89227CA3BF977E0@phx.gbl>



 Finally we are getting to the point.  . " The war must be in your imagination, not in mine. This discussion started because somebody showed a Video of "Stage Tango" and one or two membersdecided that that was not tango. Obviously they did not know that other tango styles existed. I then tried to explain that there are several tango styles and that they are very different from each other as they serve a different purpose.

 It would be interesting to know what you consider "social", I imagine that you would include Traditional Tango as taught by 75% of instructors as a social form, given the presence of available space.  

  The "milonga setting" in Buenos Aires is quite different from most milongas in the USA. There the milonga is very crowded and you can only dance milonguero. What seems to be odd is that here in USA there is plenty of room to dance and people put chairs and tables all over to leave a tiny corridor at the periphery to simulate the situation in B.A. So then they teach three steps and make their students dance all night long those same three steps in the "Crowded periphery" while the room is almost empty. 
 
 Very true, you could not dance Traditional Tango (Urquiza or fantasia, whatever name you wish to use) in the crowded milieu of the milongas downtown B.A.but you did not have any problem dancing in the USA where there is plenty of room to dance socially, with the boleos, the amagues and the needles,if you wish.

  People Dowtown B.A do not have any other choice, the room is crowded they have to dance milonguero. 

I went all summer to dance in Mar del Plata last year to Chique, Edad Madura, and "L'Alliance Francaise" and there, people dance traditional tango or fantasia. Why? because there is room to dance. 

  If you are ignorant about the existence of styles, you cannot make a conscious choice. Not when you see stage tango, traditional or canyengue, and you think that that is not tango. Because you have been told that milonguero is the only Authentic tango. 

 ""Authentic" tango is about energy, musicality, feeling, and the social energy of what Argentines call a milonga, not about style." 

 Right! and those elements exist in all the tango styles, not only in the Milonguero Style like some people want you to believe. 

People in the USA dance for about 50 weeks a year at home where there is plenty of room to dance, and two weeks in Buenos Aires.  Then they are told that the only true, authentic tango is Milonguero as danced in B.A., they frequently are taught three steps and given the title of Tango Dancer. 

 My intention is not to "create an imaginary war of tango styles" it is : 

 1 - To show that there are several tango styles, that can be used for social dancing, not only one. Traditional tango as taught by 75% of the teachers from Argentina (as per your calculations) is one of them.  

2 - that traditional tango will teach you a very rich form of tango that may be used both for social dancing and for exhibition. 

3- That the situation of room available to dance is different here than in B.A. - Here you do have a choice of style, there you are to dance milonguero because there is no room to dance. 3- Once you learn milonguero most likely you will dance that style for the rest of your life. Ther is nothing wrong with that, "if" tha tis your preference and not due to the convenience of the improvised instructor. 

4- For the hundreth time, I dance milonguero most of the time but when I feel like and there is room I like to do a boleo, an amague and a needle here and in Argentina......and I assure you, I disturb no one.   

Best regards, Sergio    
_________________________________________________________________
Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!
http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  2 23:30:15 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 20:30:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Message-ID: <127444.35138.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,
Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross 
system understanding. Walking outside partner on the right or left sides, 
I can always do a Sacada on the lady's trailing leg. But the Sacadas and 
their results will be very different depending on whether mine or my partners 
step is crossed or open.
For example, if my step is crossed, the Sacada will be with the outside 
of my leg and with the inside if my step is open. If my partners step is 
open, the Sacada will be on the inside of her leg and will result in her 
leg swinging back whereas, if her step is crossed, my Sacada will be 
on the outside of her leg and will result in her leg crossing in front of 
her standing leg.
>From this, you can easily work out how many different Sacadas are 
possible while walking outside partner, left or right side in crossed 
or parallel feet. Interesting, uh?
Jack

----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" larrynla at juno.com

>? Let's try the 8CB.
> 
> Step 1.? An open relation.? I (the leader) can do step 2 as a sacada on 
> her trailing right foot.? This might help lead a parada or a boleo, for 
> instance.
> 
> Step 2.? An open relation.? I can do step 3 as a sacada instead of the 
> usual step 3.
> 
> Step 3.? A crossed relation.? I can do step 4 as a sacada, but my 
> partner and I will have trouble.? (We can still do a figure beginning 
> in a sacada, but to do it smoothly we both must be quite expert and 
> have a lot of body control.)
> 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  4 00:02:02 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 21:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
Message-ID: <280786.59954.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Larry,
I also first?learned a basic Volcada as you describe it, i.e. as a?simple forward lean. 
The problem is that times have changed and, largely because of Nuevo terminology, 
few people call that a Volcada anymore. As mentioned in another post, that figure 
is now called a Carpa [tent] or Puente [bridge]. And I agree with you that a Puente 
should definitely be taught and learned before a Volcada is attempted.
But Larry, to avoid the confusion you're obviously feeling, I would respectfully suggest 
that you?try to keep up with the modern terminology. Otherwise, IMHO, you end up 
speaking a different language to everyone else. As seems to be the case with your 
understanding of a basic Volcada.
Your other examples - the Calecita [Merry-Go-Round] and Walking Backward Drag?
[only seen that on stage] are also not now normally classified as 'Volcadas'.
Larry, you spent an hour checking 30 videos on YouTube and found none that 
described the?basic Volcada as you think it is. Didn't that tell you something? 
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" <larrynla at juno.com>
> To: tango-L at mit.edu
> 
> Anne Atheling asked me to give some links to videos showing volcadas. So I did a 
> YouTube search which returned 625 videos. After about an hour and maybe 30 
> videos I gave up. Even the tutorials don't help. Why? 


      



From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  4 12:35:16 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Archives
Message-ID: <729668.91841.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Lucy Lynch who, for many years, provided server space and administration of the Archives has it all back up  and running and will work with our List Owner Shahrukh to see that we don't lose this valuable resource again. 

 I hope the listeros appreciate that neither one of these folks benefits from the list in any way and that it is, in fact, a lot of annoying work for them.  You will note there are no ads or pop-ups on this newsgroup and to my knowledge, the list has never been compromised to scammers.

  Over the years several folks have tried to start their own newsgroup lists and they have never been more than marginally successful and most have died within months.  

  Thanks to Shahrukh and Lucy,

Nancy


      

From RBIsaacs at attglobal.net  Mon Aug  4 12:50:35 2008
From: RBIsaacs at attglobal.net (Richard Isaacs)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:50:35 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Archives
In-Reply-To: <729668.91841.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <729668.91841.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1125421365.20080804125035@attglobal.net>

Nancy -

I think we are all aware of and grateful for the amount of effort that
goes into sustaining the list. I think we need to express this more.

Richard

Monday, August 4, 2008, 12:35:16 PM, you wrote:

N>  Lucy Lynch who, for many years, provided server space and
N> administration of the Archives has it all back up  and running and
N> will work with our List Owner Shahrukh to see that we don't lose this valuable resource again.

N>  I hope the listeros appreciate that neither one of these folks
N> benefits from the list in any way and that it is, in fact, a lot of
N> annoying work for them.  You will note there are no ads or pop-ups
N> on this newsgroup and to my knowledge, the list has never been compromised to scammers.

N>   Over the years several folks have tried to start their own
N> newsgroup lists and they have never been more than marginally
N> successful and most have died within months.  

N>   Thanks to Shahrukh and Lucy,

N> Nancy


N>       
N> _______________________________________________
N> Tango-L mailing list
N> Tango-L at mit.edu
N> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Aug  5 00:10:10 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:10:10 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <C04B7FAE-F8B7-4246-9532-F505B198BCA1@gmail.com>

Sergio enumerated many advantages to classifying tango into "types".  
It helps people know what they are getting into, it avoids confusion  
from accidentally hiring teachers of the wrong style. It allows people  
to know the purpose of the dance technique they are learning. Etc.

I would like to add an advantage to thinking in terms of styles. Using  
a named distinction between tango styles can help people focus their  
attention on certain properties that you want them to see. If you say  
"you see, in milonguero style, the couples maintain constant torso  
contact, and in salon style they have the freedom to separate," those  
categories are part of the  language used to point out a feature in  
the actual dancing. It is undeniable that people can learn a lot by  
talking and thinking about stylistic or typological differences in the  
tango dancing that they observe.

But I think problems arise when people start to believe that the  
styles are real things. I think the reality of styles is primarily in  
the context of discussion and observation, and not inherent in what's  
being done on the dance floor. (Unless someone is doing a rules-based  
imitation of an academic style.)

A style is an invented classification that people use to try to sort  
dancers and their behaviors into groups.
Styles are based on opposition. You have tango for the stage and tango  
for the salon. You have tango done by the people in the suburbs  
(orillero) and you have tango as it's done in the city center (salon).  
You have tango from the old times (traditional) and you have tango  
from today (new). You have tango salon style and tango club style.

In every rhetorical context the meaning of such types is going to  
change. It is not like looking at breeds of dogs and saying, yep, this  
is a wolfhound, this is a terrier. Our classifications of tango are  
ambiguous, subjective (one man's close embrace is another man's open),  
and almost purely intellectual constructs imposed on a freely-evolving  
dance language. The validity of the types of tango depends on what you  
are trying to say about the tango.

At the beginning someone said "OK guys, you've been learning stage  
tango, I'm going to show you how milongueros would dance it." Then  
later "milonguero style" became codified according to the personal  
style of one teacher.

In reality, there is no one way that milongueros dance. There is no  
"one" way that social tango is danced in Buenos Aires. Diversity and  
individuality obtain everywhere you look.

....

When I dance I do not think "I am going to dance milonguero style." I  
do not think "When I go there tonight, I will dance salon style." I do  
not think "That milonga is going to be tango nuevo style." I do not  
think "with that woman I will be able to dance xyz."

I do not think about that!! I go to dance where I think the music will  
be good, the dancers will be good, and the floor will be good. I never  
think about what style will we be dancing.

I do not know how I am going to dance when I get on the floor. I do  
not know how I am going to dance when I hear the music. I do not know  
what I am going to do when I get her in my arms. I do not even know  
what style of tango I am dancing while I am dancing. That is because I  
am not dancing "a style".

Often people come up to me and ask "Joe, what style of tango is it  
that you dance?" I have never had an answer for that. I used to think  
that was my problem, and that I needed to find my "style".  Actually,  
it is not my problem. It is a problem caused by teachers and marketers  
and catalogers constantly imposing the idea that  tango is segregated  
into mutually exclusive styles, and implying that dancers have to pick  
a teacher according to his or her style, have to choose a style for  
themselves to dance, have to dedicate yourself to a style, and have to  
eschew all other styles. ("But buy mine, while it's hot.")

The worst part is when I ask someone to dance, and she says "I hope  
that you aren't going to dance open embrace with me." Or "I hope that  
you aren't going to dance close embrace with me." Or "I only know how  
to dance close embrace style." (or it's opposite, I get both.) Or I'm  
on the floor dancing and the woman I'm dancing with says - "Oh, you  
are dancing milonguero style." (or it's opposite)

I want to scream and pull my hair out. I am not dancing "a style." I  
am dancing with you.

I want to say "Stop talking about styles and just dance with me. I  
don't care what it's called, I'm going to find a way to dance with  
you, and it's going to be good if you don't poison it preconceived  
ideas."

Instead I say "Oh, OK, well, I hope I will be able to dance in a way  
that you will like."

-joe


From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  5 08:53:34 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 05:53:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
In-Reply-To: <C04B7FAE-F8B7-4246-9532-F505B198BCA1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50889.28550.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Joe,

While I appreciate many of your points in the first part of your post, I have a differing opinion on the latter half.  You may not be thinking that you dance a style, but in reality you do dance a style, so it's fair for people to ask or to classify what you do.  Although dance styles are somewhat flexible, there are some characteristics that distinguishes them from each other.  If you want to use the dog analogy, there are standards that define breeds ("best of breed").  But breeds can mix and new breeds can develop.  I've only had mutts for pets, but I can appreciate purebreds.  

Personally, I find it much easier to find a connection with someone if I know beforehand what style they dance or what they prefer.  Otherwise, we can waste a good bit of the tanda trying to find a comfortable zone.  As for those who feel they need to ask or comment first, I'd just chalk it up to their not knowing yet that they are supposed to watch the dancers before asking/accepting a dance.

Trini de Pittsburgh




      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  5 11:09:14 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:09:14 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W117D91E5E9CF627A4851C9917B0@phx.gbl>


Trini wrote: 
>> Personally, I find it much easier to find a connection with someone if I know beforehand what style they dance 
>> or what they prefer.

Do you dance only one style??  Or do you adjust your "style" to accommodate the available space, the music, your 
partner, your mood, etc.......

I think that there are too many dancers who view an individual's style as fixed and inflexible, which is often 
just not true.

Cheers,

David
_________________________________________________________________
Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Tue Aug  5 05:29:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <280786.59954.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080805102950.3860S@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Larry, to avoid the confusion you're obviously feeling, I would 
> respectfully suggest that you?try to keep up with the modern 
> terminology. ... you spent an hour checking 30 videos on YouTube and
> found none that described the?basic Volcada as you think it is. Didn't
> that tell you something? Jack

What it tells us Jack is that some people have got the idea that one 
particular predefined sequence is the only thing that is called volcada... 
because that's the only volcada that those particular people are learning 
or teaching in class, and featuring in the promo videos you see.

Volcada is a description. In real dancing, there are countless different 
volcadas. The word refers to any move that meets the description. Only in 
the world of paint-by-numbers tango classes does anyone mistake the word 
for the name of a single sequence.

--
Chris

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Aug  5 14:20:26 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:20:26 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <3986FE1A-1C2D-449D-BE60-F158FDD35433@gmail.com>

Hi Trini -

> Personally, I find it much easier to find a connection with someone  
> if I know beforehand what style they dance or what they prefer.  
> Otherwise, we can waste a good bit of the tanda trying to find a  
> comfortable zone.
Could you elaborate on how this foreknowledge of the man's style helps  
you to find a connection? What goes through your mind?

> As for those who feel they need to ask or comment first, I'd just  
> chalk it up to their not knowing yet that they are supposed to watch  
> the dancers before asking/accepting a dance.

Speaking only for myself, I dance differently with different women. I  
find that the embrace is absolutely unique with each partner I dance  
with. I don't know what the embrace will be -- I explore the  
possibilities on the first dance. I explore them further with each  
successive dance, and I make micro adjustments until I feel that we  
both like it. Sometimes I find out that I want to try to influence her  
to go beyond what she seems accustomed to (reading this in her body).  
Sometimes I find out that I need to conform myself to her in a way  
that is unfamiliar to me, but seems good. It's never the same, even  
with people I have danced often with.

When I see that a woman dances a certain way with one man, it does not  
mean that that's the only way she can dance, or that that is how she  
will dance with me.

In any case, seeing a person dance and taking a reading of their  
"style" is more of an intuitive thing, no?
If I just look at someone and say "oh - she dances milonguero", it's  
fitting her into my concept of what milonguero is. It's letting an  
ideal abstract category impose itself on a unique reality.

Interacting with a dog, I suppose you could bring some knowledge to  
bear about how their breeds behave. Alsatian? Oh, that's an attack  
dog, and I had better be on my guard. Beagle? Oh, that dog is going to  
be veyr into smell. Maybe that information is helpful, maybe it just  
blocks observing that individual dog, which might have a lot of  
interesting personality traits that I miss because I'm too busy trying  
to identify the traits of his "breed".

It's sort of like astrology. You say you are a Libra? (I _knew_ it.)  
Oh, that means you are going to be indecisive. Yeah, I can see it in  
the way you dance. All right, I know how to work with Libras. I'll  
just be very decisive and she'll be able to dance well. This would be  
a total mental fabrication. But some people think this way.

It's the same with tango "styles". They have about as much validity as  
astrological types. Of course, if you convince people that they belong  
to a certain type they'll probably start fulfilling your expectations  
of them.





From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Aug  5 15:16:29 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:16:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <EE3835A1-18E2-4318-929E-7CFB3DB88AC4@gmail.com>

To Trini again (thanks for the discussion):

> You may not be thinking that you dance a style, but in reality you  
> do dance a style, so it's fair for people to ask or to classify what  
> you do.
It's so nice when other people take the time to categorize you when  
you yourself can't do it.

So, let's say that my way of dancing can be classified according to a  
named type.

What will you base it on?

- Instructional pedigree?
- Dance features that suggest a family resemblance?
- The dance circles I associate with?
- My step vocabulary?

What if the music changes and suddenly I am dancing with a partner  
from the other family, to "their" music, using their steps. Have I  
changed styles?

Does it mean I have two styles, each for a different situation?

What if I could dance a different way with every partner. Would I be  
dancing all styles, or would I be dancing one miscegenation style.

.....

If tomorrow I go to the vintage shop and buy some converse sneakers,  
skinny jeans, and a used T-shirt (ugh), will I have a style?

When I am trying to cook French, will I be French? (I am French. Er,  
Alsatian. Oh, maybe I'm really German.)

Gro(s)hens




From stermitz at tango.org  Tue Aug  5 15:30:46 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:30:46 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080805102950.3860S@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <memo.20080805102950.3860S@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <0988D297-D522-4531-ABC8-DB95E91D52A6@tango.org>

> What it tells us Jack is that some people have got the idea that one
> particular predefined sequence is the only thing that is called  
> volcada...
> because that's the only volcada that those particular people are  
> learning
> or teaching in class, and featuring in the promo videos you see.
>
> Volcada is a description. In real dancing, there are countless  
> different
> volcadas. The word refers to any move that meets the description.  
> Only in
> the world of paint-by-numbers tango classes does anyone mistake the  
> word
> for the name of a single sequence.
>
> --
> Chris

Yes, of course Volcada just means lean. It comes from the Spanish. You  
can do a big lean, or do it small, break her back, or throw her to the  
ground. Or, maybe she throws you to the ground. Watching the older  
dancers, you see they are always changing around the angle of the  
lean, so volcada is nothing new.

Same problem with learnung the boleo.

Many people think boleo is a kick of the leg, when in fact the kick is  
a decoration of the boleo. The basic boleo is (usually) a spiral at  
the waist, that results in the supporting leg pivoting and the loose  
leg floating behind and perhaps wrap before coming around to the front.

If you learn the boleo with one specific kick, then you are learning  
both the decoration and the boleo at the same time. This is less  
flexible than learning them separately.


Certain fads sweep through tango every couple of years.

I remember the dreadful parada, sandwich, shoe-shine, gancho scare of  
the mid 1990s. How kitsch that move looks today, as the woman rubs her  
shoe with pretend skankiness up his leg.

A bunch of people will go to Buenos Aires and see a woman with her  
nose pressed against his cheek, or her left shoulder cranked up with  
elbow poking up at the ceiling, or her butt sticking way out, and  
start imitating it.

Each year it seems like a particular new move is the rage: big  
sweeping volcadas (2003), or a 45 degree plank (1995).


Tom Stermitz
Denver, CO 80207



From arborlaw at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 15:20:46 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:20:46 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
In-Reply-To: <C04B7FAE-F8B7-4246-9532-F505B198BCA1@gmail.com>
References: <C04B7FAE-F8B7-4246-9532-F505B198BCA1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4898A80E.1070403@comcast.net>

I compare dance 'styles' to dialects of the same language.
Dance and language are similar in that they facilitate connection
between us.  Dialects develop organically by the expressions of
community members cross-influencing others within the same community.
Dialects reflect a group's preferences for certain 'phrases'
(expressions/idioms) over others based on shared experience within the
group.  Each community also develops its own 'pronunciations' of its own
subset of 'vocabulary' (where the entire set of vocabulary itself is
well-known and common to all the dialects of the language).  Some
innovative individuals contribute new vocabulary (slang/lingo) which is
admired and rapidly adopted by other members of the group.  Dialects
become a primary means of expressing identity with the other members in
the same community. Some speakers of a language do not have the ability
or the willingness to parse other dialects, to the point where they
consider a dialect other than their own to be a wholly different language.

Showing familiarity with other dialects in your own language
demonstrates fundamental respect and a promise of open-mindedness and
flexibility in embracing common humanity.  In the opposite direction,
parochialism plays up and ridicules language differences and uses
dialects as an easy us-vs-them shorthand to achieve divisive identity
politics and to express contempt.  I would rather celebrate the
diversity.

Acceptance of a diversity of dialect is a win-win approach and refusal
to engage/comprehend is a win-lose approach.  I see no reason for one
group to lose when both can win.


Joe Grohens wrote:
> Sergio enumerated many advantages to classifying tango into "types".  
> It helps people know what they are getting into, it avoids confusion  
> 
...
-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz/blog





From arborlaw at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 16:49:13 2008
From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:49:13 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <0988D297-D522-4531-ABC8-DB95E91D52A6@tango.org>
References: <memo.20080805102950.3860S@HIDEchrisjj.com>
	<0988D297-D522-4531-ABC8-DB95E91D52A6@tango.org>
Message-ID: <4898BCC9.1000604@comcast.net>

Tom, you're just brilliant.  You had me rolling on the floor laughing. 
Until just now, I never understood exactly what I couldn't stand about 
those early tango lessons.  These moves are truly the opera bouffe of 
the Tango Borg.

You reminded me of Milan Kundera's philosophy of kitsch (not just that 
kitschy culture is sentimental and facile but that the prevalence of 
kitsch in art is a form of totalitarianism imposing a sanitized view of 
culture in which all answers are already known before the question is 
asked, and in which complexity, irony and ambiguity are precluded. 
That's an interesting read on the reasons for the development of the 
highly regimented and sanitized 'ballroom' tango (kitschy) out of the 
murky, beautiful, and improvisational Argentine Tango.

Certain community leads know me from those days and they're gonna lead 
that stuff and expect compliance, and unfortunately I can't play dumb 
like some of these sweet younger things.  Now I know what to say, 
"that's so 1995, I really don't even remember it."


> 
> I remember the dreadful parada, sandwich, shoe-shine, gancho scare of  
> the mid 1990s. How kitsch that move looks today, as the woman rubs her  
> shoe with pretend skankiness up his leg.
> 
> A bunch of people will go to Buenos Aires and see a woman with her  
> nose pressed against his cheek, or her left shoulder cranked up with  
> elbow poking up at the ceiling, or her butt sticking way out, and  
> start imitating it.
> 
> Each year it seems like a particular new move is the rage: big  
> sweeping volcadas (2003), or a 45 degree plank (1995).
> 
> 
> Tom Stermitz
> Denver, CO 80207
> 

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.biz/blog



From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Aug  6 01:51:54 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:51:54 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <C4651F5E-FC3C-417F-BD71-C839125907AF@gmail.com>

 > I compare dance 'styles' to dialects of the same language.

The analogy of dialects in a language is a very useful idea for  
thinking about tango styles.

This way we can get a sense of how much difference there really is  
between these styles. And how much these differences matter.

Dialects can differ from the standard language and from each other in  
principally three aspects:

- grammar
- vocabulary
- pronunciation

If we think about the varieties of tango, which ones really differ in  
terms of their grammar or their vocabulary?

It seems to me that all social dialects of tango follow the same  
structural customs (walking counter clockwise, following the code of  
the crossing sequence in turns, maintaing connection through both  
arms, etc.)

Stage tango does not. Stage tango uses the space in whatever way is  
theatrically advantageous. Couples dance sometimes in shadow position,  
sometimes separated. There are lifts, inversions, stopping the dance  
to talk, sing, act, etc. These differences might be considered a  
mixture of grammatical and vocabulary differences.

One might argue that milonguero style has a much different vocabulary  
than other styles. But really, it is just a simplified vocabulary of  
the standard language (akin to "simplified English", which restricts  
vocabulary to about 1000 words). Milonguero style has no vocabulary  
that is not used in the other styles.


I would suggest that the only distinction between "milonguero style"  
and the other social styles is pronunciation. In other words, it is  
similar to a regional accent.



From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 08:59:20 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:59:20 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <BAY105-W3D6F607C428131BAED405977A0@phx.gbl>




Joe says: "I want to say "Stop talking about styles and just dance with me. I don't care what it's called, I'm going to find a way to dance with you, and it's going to be good if you don't poison it preconceived ideas."

I agree, it does not matter if you wish to use a name for the style you dance, because you are going to find a way to dance with that particular lady. This is fine
most people do not know what style they dance.

We all do the same,  except that most people tend to dance with partners of similar skill level.  So they stand or sit for a while to observe the dancers and then decide with whom they wish to dance.   The "way" you dance is determined by many factors.  You must adjust to the available space, (lots of lack of it), the music, fast music may require smaller steps and faster rhythm, an slower one will allow longer steps and a slower rhythm.  

Then the woman determines the closeness of the embrace, (very close, close with light, open), then the way everyone else is dancing in that particular club may have an influence as well;  as you start dancing you get the "feeling" of the lady so that you do not lead anything that she cannot follow and when there is some problem you immediately "compensate" so that the problem is not evident.   

It is possible that you lead an Ocho cortado and she does not follow because she is used to doing regular front ochos, no big deal: you continue dancing  without ochos cortados. Last year I went dancing to a place where nobody ever crossed, they danced stage style without using the cross at all. 

It is possible but unlikely that you ask somebody to dance without knowing how she dances and she does not know how to dance: you still can walk in a straight way, never crossing.

But it is possible that you like traditional tango and you go to a club where that style is preferred or perhaps to a place where millonguero or nuevo are danced.
There (as Carol says) people speak the same dialect and this could be a big advantage.

But if you do not know too much about styles, when somebody asks you "what style do you dance?" you answer "Salon" which means social , not stage.

Salon or social has several subgroups :  Milonguero is the most common in Buenos Aires, in some places they dance traditional tango, Canyengue or Nuevo.

Joe adds "It's the same with tango "styles". They have about as much validity as astrological types. Of course, if you convince people that they belong to a certain type they'll probably start fulfilling your expectations of them."


The most common reason for dancing a particular style is that, by chance, that was the style that was being taught at the place where someone happened to go.

One step earlier to that first visit to a tango instructor : the person saw somebody dancing tango, very frequently a tango on stage, in a movie, in the theater, in Television or some club. So he goes with the expectation of dancing stage tango .   A small fraction of them will  have the dedication of time and energy to learn.

At certain time and after being exposed to different types of tango you may have the chance to select the style you wish to dance.

Summary: You do not know what style you dance, no big deal you dance Joe's style.

Best regards, Sergio







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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 11:01:50 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:01:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
In-Reply-To: <EE3835A1-18E2-4318-929E-7CFB3DB88AC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <346905.95037.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, let's say that my way of dancing can be classified
> according to a named type.
> 
> What will you base it on?
> 
> - Instructional pedigree?
> - Dance features that suggest a family resemblance?
> - The dance circles I associate with?
> - My step vocabulary?


I'd base it on the energy that you're suggesting from the dance.  This is something that I believe women are more sensitive about than men realize, perhaps because so much of our training is about receiving so much information.  There's a different feeling that transcends the embrace or vocabulary.  I can usually tell within a few seconds of moving what kind of dancer my partner is, not an entire dance.  It's not hard to figure out the open-dancer who is trying to dance close, or the milonguero dancer who is trying to dance open.  It's often obvious when we first embrace.

Every single man has particular combinations or movements that they do out of habit or preference.  Doing these same movements over and over trains the body a certain way.  So a style develops and a certain energy.  That same energy finds its way into other movements, even if it is more "milonguero" or more "nuevo".  For some people, it's obvious from the very beginning.  IMHO, not recognizing that you have a particular style is like not accepting a part of yourself.  Style is not something that is forced upon one, it's is more like something discovered about yourself.  

I don't think that the men's experience with women work the same way.  Generally, women develop a wider range of movement then men.  We're asked to do more things than a man may be asked to do.  There are those, whoever, who choose to specialize.

But we shouldn't confuse dance styles with normal adjustments for creating a mutually satisfying communication.  On a practical level, when my partner isn't clear on how he dances and changes things around, it's a bit annoying.  I'm trying to get into a comfort zone, and wham, there's this change.  Instead of actually dancing, I'm having to think about technique.  So consider that the next time a woman asks what style you dance, she might be trying to establish a starting point so that she's not wasting half a tanda on figuring you out.  She wants a full tanda to dance, not half a tanda.

Trini de Pittsburgh



 












      

From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 13:03:02 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:03:02 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <BLU119-W12AC4E206B4EB6753A1BEC917A0@phx.gbl>


Trini wrote:

>>I'd base it on the energy that you're suggesting from the dance.  

Very interesting comment.  Could you explain a little more what you mean by energy??

>> On a practical level, when my partner isn't clear on how he dances and changes things around, it's a bit 
>>annoying.  I'm trying to get into a comfort zone, and wham, there's this change.  Instead of actually dancing, I'm 
>>having to think about technique.  So consider that the next time a woman asks what style you dance, she might be 
>>trying to establish a starting point so that she's not wasting half a tanda on figuring you out.  She wants a full tanda 
>>to dance, not half a tanda.

Also very interesting.  What is the dance to you?  Purely physical?  Is there an intellectual component?  Why is the 
"figuring out" part of the tanda not considered dancing?

Personally, one thing that I really enjoy about tango is the dual left brain / right brain element.  I try at every moment 
to listen to, and respond to, the music, my partner and the floor, but simultaneously I never loose sight of technique, 
clarity (or lack thereof) of my lead, my partner's reaction to my lead and technical adjustments that I should make, etc.

For me the entire dance, and every song of every tanda, even with my regular partner of 3 years, contains both the emotional and the intellectual....the musical and the technical.

Cheers

D. David Thorn
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Aug  6 13:19:29 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:19:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <67D5AC29-80A4-4EA8-8A66-9BEC842663C0@gmail.com>

Trini,

Thank you for the informative reply.

You wrote:
> IMHO, not recognizing that you have a particular style is like not  
> accepting a part of yourself. Style is not something that is forced  
> upon one, it's is more like something discovered about yourself.


What style of tango do you dance?

Joe

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 14:22:13 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <54668.46593.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The way I understand what Trini is talking about is that every dancer eventually (the sooner the better) finds his or her own body which then, to a large extent, forms the basis for his or her own style -- unique in time and space. We all draw from the same bag of technical and choreographic concepts, but given our unique physique, psyche, and ways to feel and interpret the music and connect with our parters, we dance our unique dance.

In very general terms now, every dance instance is in its own category. Why even worry about categorizing it? What is gained by that? It is almost guaranteed that I will dance the same music differently with a different partner and/or in different time. Flexibility in interpretation is a bonus. Normal equals boring equals death.

 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 1:19:29 PM
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango

Trini,

Thank you for the informative reply.

You wrote:
> IMHO, not recognizing that you have a particular style is like not  
> accepting a part of yourself. Style is not something that is forced  
> upon one, it's is more like something discovered about yourself.


What style of tango do you dance?

Joe
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

From larrynla at juno.com  Wed Aug  6 14:23:53 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:23:53 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
Message-ID: <20080806.112353.21061.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

Tom Stermitz wrote --------->

Many people think boleo is a kick of the leg, when in fact the kick is  
a decoration of the boleo. The basic boleo is (usually) a spiral at  
the waist, that results in the supporting leg pivoting and the loose  
leg floating behind and perhaps wrap before coming around to the front.

If you learn the boleo with one specific kick, then you are learning  
both the decoration and the boleo at the same time. This is less  
flexible than learning them separately.
_________________________
Thanks, Tom. As usual, clear and to the point.

Thanks for your comment on boleos. You've cleared up something that has always been a bit fuzzy to me.

Maybe now I can learn how to lead front boleos, which I never try anymore because I always screw it up.

Of course, I have more experience leading back boleos. They can be done whether the embrace is very close or more distant. With front boleos I have to make some space for the woman to use first, either by letting her pull away from me or by doing a lean.

Anyone have pointers on leading/doing front boleos?

Larry de Los Angeles


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From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 14:53:16 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:53:16 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
Message-ID: <BLU119-W33D8A8BDA642F813C859B6917A0@phx.gbl>


Tom Stermitz wrote:

>> The basic boleo is (usually) a spiral at
>> the waist, that results in the supporting leg pivoting and the loose
>> leg floating behind and perhaps wrap before coming around to the front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJUV2QwmflY

First few seconds.  Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her leg does float behind and then wraps around front, and then 
she is lead to settle onto her left foot.    A front boleo???  A front ocho???  Simply a cross??

I thought that the root of boleo meant to to throw or to launch.  A bowling alley is a bolera.  I was under the 
impression that a "whipping" action, or the appearance of such, whether lead fast or slowly, was integral to a boleo.  

If the word is actually voleo, I thought that the english cognate was related to "volley", meaning to hit in the air.  
Again, not a simple spiral, but a more enthusiastic action.

help?

David 


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From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 15:42:26 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
Message-ID: <694487.37287.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Look at the Youtube videos  from Maleva Tango Tutorials.  There are several.

Jennifer Bratt demonstrates both front and back ochos, high and low, with and without kicks.


--- On Wed, 8/6/08, David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com> wrote:

First few seconds.  Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her
> leg does float behind and then wraps around front, and then 
> she is lead to settle onto her left foot.    A front
> boleo???  A front ocho???  Simply a cross??
> 





      

From larrynla at juno.com  Wed Aug  6 15:45:43 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:45:43 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <20080806.124543.19389.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

Carol Shepherd writes ---------> I compare dance 'styles' to dialects of the 
same language.

Beautiful analogy. Or maybe more, a fundamental reality. Thinking of dance as a 
language of the body puts a lot of matters in perspective.

The special nature of tango is that it has an enormously bigger vocabulary and 
ways to use that vocabulary than any other social dance.

Show tango is like a play. Its "author" is a choreographer who tries to create a 
work of art that pleases herself and others. Performers may do their job 
mechanically or try to add something special to the same moves done in the same 
order every night. A particular play may include sequences which are realistic 
or at least try to stay close to they way most people really dance. Or sequences 
that are fantastic, with lifts that show a woman seemingly floating through the 
air.

The show may done on an elevated stage so more people can see. Or it may be done 
in closed-off pedestrian street. Or in the middle of a dance floor by guest 
teachers visiting a city, who may improvise the show on the spot the way Irish 
bards were reputed to do.


Joe Grohens writes ---------> I dance differently with different women. I  
find that the embrace is absolutely unique with each partner I dance  
with. I don't know what the embrace will be -- I explore the  
possibilities on the first dance. I explore them further with each  
successive dance...

I feel the same way. More, the same woman may be very different in different 
times, maybe depressed early in the evening and jubilant later.


Sergio Vandekier writes ---------> At certain time and after being exposed to 
different types of tango you may have the chance to select the style you wish to 
dance.

More, you will CREATE your own style that takes a little from all your 
experiences. You (or someone else) may consider you to be dancing exclusively 
"nuevo tango" but a closer look will show you are putting your own unique stamp 
on it. This is why many of us get so angry when someone points out problems or 
limits with a particular style. We are so identified with that style that we
feel they are attacking us.


As in other languages, some people have more or at least different talents to 
bring to their dancing. Some are more creative, or athletic, or dedicated. Some 
feel freer to express themselves. Some are poets on the dance floor, others poor 
plodders, or tongue-tied.


Finally, styles are useful short-hand and convenient labels. But we must not  
mistake the labels for the reality. That would enslave us to abstracts, the way 
meteorological categories can blind us to the evanescent never-to-be-repeated
glory of a sunset.


Larry de Los Angeles


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From patangos at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 17:29:43 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
In-Reply-To: <54668.46593.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <922228.85382.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The way I understand what Trini is talking about is that
> every dancer eventually (the sooner the better) finds his or
> her own body which then, to a large extent, forms the basis
> for his or her own style -- unique in time and space. We all
> draw from the same bag of technical and choreographic
> concepts, but given our unique physique, psyche, and ways to
> feel and interpret the music and connect with our parters,
> we dance our unique dance.

Yes, and even if one tries to vary or tries to dance differently with other women, it will still be within a subset of all of the possibilities, right?  So one may imitate the embrace or movements but the energy can't disguise itself.  

I don't know how I can explain this energy.  It's something that comes from experience and feeling it.  I've been fortunate to dance with enough excellent men who are prototypes of their styles and have grown accustomed to recognizing the different energies in these specialists.  I suppose it's the same way a football coach can sense if a player would be better as a quarterback or as a tight end.  With male students, I can often tell early on whether he is more suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach accordingly.  He'll make the final choice, of course, but as a teacher, it's my responsibility to help him with that choice.

For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I don't want to intellectualize when I dance.  Do you really want your partner to think "he's preleading a boleo" or "he's setting up for a back sacada"?  The second she thinks that takes her away from dancing or focusing on you and she'll start anticipating.  Thinking is for the practicas.  At a milonga I expect the music and my body to take over.  

As for my personal style, my base is milonguero.  Though I dance all of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations, physical and otherwise.  And I would say not to be afraid to be categorized because it can also expose you to what you do not yet know and can choose to explore further or deeper.

Trini de Pittsburgh





      

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Aug  6 18:40:50 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:40:50 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango + Puppy Castello on "style"
Message-ID: <01CBA2E9-5C5E-402E-8208-9C2911EADDFD@gmail.com>

Trini wrote:

> With male students, I can often tell early on whether he is more  
> suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach accordingly.

So, are those the two main choices? (And if so, why?)

> For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I don't want to  
> intellectualize when I dance.

But isn't that what you are doing if you categorize the guy you are  
about to dance with?

> As for my personal style, my base is milonguero.  Though I dance all  
> of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations, physical and  
> otherwise.

OK - so you dance milonguero, plus "all of the others." And that would  
be called "dancing a style."

Next time someone asks me what style I dance, that will be my answer  
too: "all of the styles."

Now, thankfully, everyone can know in advance what it will be like to  
dance with me.

Yow -- all these years not knowing what my style was, but finally,  
I've got it.

..............

Speaking of "milonguero".....

The BBC "Confiteria Ideal" 2005 documentary is sampled on youtube.  
(It's nicely done, and includes interviews w. Javier & Geraldine,  
Puppy Castello, and Chicho.)

Check out Puppy Castello in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A

<transcription>

Puppy: The most difficult thing is the tango walk. Anyone can do the  
steps -- me, for instance! But very few people can walk.

[...]

Puppy: Most of the old milongueros, other than Portalea, are dead now.  
Times change. Maybe youngsters are dancing the tango of the future.  
But I like my own style.

Interviewer: What  style do you dance?

Puppy: It's the style of the 40s. It has rhythm and elegance. Young  
people move like elephants. For instance, look at Geraldine, who  
dances our style of tango. She's 20 but she dances like us.

</transcription>

What I want to know is - why didn't Puppy say "my style is milonguero  
style"?
When you think of the kind of people you could classify as  
"milongueros" - wouldn't Puppy Castello have fit the bill?

If Puppy Castello was a milonguero, why didn't he dance milonguero  
style?

Maybe he is not a milonguero. In that case, what do you call him? A  
dancer? A salonero?

Puppy himself called Portalea a milonguero. (But Portalea didn't dance  
milonguero style either.)

-joe


From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 19:11:19 2008
From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-W LAS VEGAS FESTIVAL 08!!!!
Message-ID: <720976.64175.qm@web58805.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Dear Tango Friends,

We are looking forward to see all of you attend and share Magic Lucky Tango Nights Festival with us, we have an amazing schedule like never before at any tango festival. Considering the economic situation we have extended the Early Bird Registration until AUGUST 10TH. Hopefully this will give you more time to organize your itinerary and take advantage of the money savings in a calm fashion.
For more information please visit www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


Un abrazo
Magic Lucky Tango Cast


Amigos tangueros dado a los pedidos de muchos de ustedes por razones economicas, concideramos justo extender el early bird, conservando el precio actual hasta el 10 de agosto, de esa forma podran hacer sus compras de pasajes y registracion con mas tranquilidad. Esperamos verlos de esta forma a todos en el 2 magic lucky tango night,para mas informacion por favor visitar la pagina de internet www.lasvegastangoweekend.com

Un abrazo!
Magic? Lucky Tango Cast

---------
Teachers:
Fernanda & Guillermo
Hugo Latorre
Los Hermanos Macana
Graciela Gonzalez

Musicians:
Melanie Hutton
The Motta's tango Group
Pepe and Pablo Motta

What happens in Vegas!!! 
Stays in LasVegasTangoWeekend.com



Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 

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Las Vegas Nv 89113 

Contact 702-379-6057 
Contact 702-372-9581 

www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


      

From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Wed Aug  6 19:15:06 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:15:06 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Things we can learn from the French
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0808061615y5b85fa83kf7bac7e1bf4fdba4@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVcFM05hM4

- Subtle cabeceo
- A nice greeting
- Proper milonga protocol posted on walls
- Proper compensation

We have lost so much.

Neil

From nina at earthnet.net  Wed Aug  6 20:03:51 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:03:51 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango + Puppy Castello on "style"
In-Reply-To: <01CBA2E9-5C5E-402E-8208-9C2911EADDFD@gmail.com>
References: <01CBA2E9-5C5E-402E-8208-9C2911EADDFD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080806180113.01b62430@earthnet.net>

Joe,

You can read the archives of the tango-l.  There is a story in detail 
about how Susana Miller invented the term "milonguero" when she began 
teaching in the early 1990s.  The reason that Puppy and others didn't 
say that they danced "milonguero style" is because they didn't know 
that they did!:)

Best,

Nina




At 04:40 PM 8/6/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Trini wrote:
>
> > With male students, I can often tell early on whether he is more
> > suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach accordingly.
>
>So, are those the two main choices? (And if so, why?)
>
> > For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I don't want to
> > intellectualize when I dance.
>
>But isn't that what you are doing if you categorize the guy you are
>about to dance with?
>
> > As for my personal style, my base is milonguero.  Though I dance all
> > of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations, physical and
> > otherwise.
>
>OK - so you dance milonguero, plus "all of the others." And that would
>be called "dancing a style."
>
>Next time someone asks me what style I dance, that will be my answer
>too: "all of the styles."
>
>Now, thankfully, everyone can know in advance what it will be like to
>dance with me.
>
>Yow -- all these years not knowing what my style was, but finally,
>I've got it.
>
>..............
>
>Speaking of "milonguero".....
>
>The BBC "Confiteria Ideal" 2005 documentary is sampled on youtube.
>(It's nicely done, and includes interviews w. Javier & Geraldine,
>Puppy Castello, and Chicho.)
>
>Check out Puppy Castello in this clip:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A
>
><transcription>
>
>Puppy: The most difficult thing is the tango walk. Anyone can do the
>steps -- me, for instance! But very few people can walk.
>
>[...]
>
>Puppy: Most of the old milongueros, other than Portalea, are dead now.
>Times change. Maybe youngsters are dancing the tango of the future.
>But I like my own style.
>
>Interviewer: What  style do you dance?
>
>Puppy: It's the style of the 40s. It has rhythm and elegance. Young
>people move like elephants. For instance, look at Geraldine, who
>dances our style of tango. She's 20 but she dances like us.
>
></transcription>
>
>What I want to know is - why didn't Puppy say "my style is milonguero
>style"?
>When you think of the kind of people you could classify as
>"milongueros" - wouldn't Puppy Castello have fit the bill?
>
>If Puppy Castello was a milonguero, why didn't he dance milonguero
>style?
>
>Maybe he is not a milonguero. In that case, what do you call him? A
>dancer? A salonero?
>
>Puppy himself called Portalea a milonguero. (But Portalea didn't dance
>milonguero style either.)
>
>-joe
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Wed Aug  6 20:50:17 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:50:17 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Social Tango
Message-ID: <E779E224-70B7-4F13-9616-1368472C6D7A@gmail.com>

ldla:
> Finally, styles are useful short-hand and convenient labels. But we  
> must not mistake the labels for the reality.
My feeling exactly.

> That would enslave us to abstracts, the way meteorological  
> categories can blind us to the evanescent never-to-be-repeated glory  
> of a sunset.

There you go. Nice one.

From patangos at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  7 07:24:43 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango + Puppy Castello on "style"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080806180113.01b62430@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <579127.92523.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Nina Pesochinsky <nina at earthnet.net> wrote:
> 
> You can read the archives of the tango-l.  There is a story
> in detail about how Susana Miller invented the term
> "milonguero" when she began teaching in the early 1990s.  The reason that Puppy and others didn't say that they danced "milonguero style" is
> because they didn't know that they did!:)


Quite right.  Folks also didn't know that they danced "close-embrace" (a term coined by Daniel Trenner), did "ocho cortadas" (Gustavo and Fabian) or danced "molinetes" (some Argentine couple who taught in the US).  Some were even dancing "nuevo" (not sure who coined that).  They also didn't know that the men were "leaders" and the women were "followers".  And as I pointed out in an earlier post, some people didn't know that they were doing "colgadas".  


--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com> wrote:

> > With male students, I can often tell early on whether
> he is more suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach
> accordingly.
> 
> So, are those the two main choices? (And if so, why?)

I don't teach stage tango, and I don't like teaching beginners a nuevo style right off the bat.  Those are the 4 main classifications of tango styles.  Though one could probably break then down further, I'm not expert enough to do so.

 
> > For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I
> don't want to intellectualize when I dance.
> 
> But isn't that what you are doing if you categorize the
> guy you are about to dance with?

Only on the same level as intellectualizing whether my partner is male or female.  My approach in developing my dance is to study my natural reactions and refine them to be more reflexive than conscious.  If a man is having to make me think about what I'm doing alot, then the dance isn't very fun at all.  It becomes work.

I find it amusing that you seem to be attributing negative vibes to someone who simply asks what style you dance.  You would then be guilty of the very thing you dislike - categorizing someone them before you even get on the dance floor.  All this discussion about labels sounds as if people are trying to be too politically correct instead of saying it is what it is.


> > As for my personal style, my base is milonguero. 
> Though I dance all of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations,
> physical and otherwise.
> 
> OK - so you dance milonguero, plus "all of the others." And that would  be called "dancing a style."
> 
> Next time someone asks me what style I dance, that will be
> my answer  
> too: "all of the styles."

You can answer your questions however you want, but you missed my point.  The energy I consider milonguero is what always stays with me the most.  It's what I feel most at home with both as a leader and a follower.  I know from studying women who are much more nuevo or more salon than I am that they have a different energy than I do.  To the average tango dancer who isn't looking for an in-depth analysis, I would also say "all of the styles", but since you seemed interested and capable of understanding a more sophisticated answer (my bad? ;)  I answered as I did.
    

Good tangos and styling to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh


      

From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  8 03:22:06 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 07:22:06 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Those vulgar "belly bumpers"
Message-ID: <20080808.002206.27869.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

Nina Pesochinsky writes ---------> You can read the archives of the
tango-l. There is a story in detail about how Susana Miller invented the
term "milonguero" when she began teaching in the early 1990s. The reason
that Puppy and others didn't say that they danced "milonguero style" is
because they didn't know that they did!:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A

Looking at the video you can clearly see that Puppy always left a space
between himself and his partner. That is, he did not dance what some
people call "milonguero style."

While I was working for NASA I was sent fairly regularly to San Francisco.
I often could take a long weekend and danced and took classes. One of my 
favorite teaching couples were Argentine. They described their style as
"salon" and a separation was an essential part of it. They complained 
about the "vulgar" style that some people had begun to bring back from
Buenos Aires.

"Belly bumpers" (their exact term) were not real tango dancers. They
were milongueros, which to them meant drunks without jobs who spent all
their times at the milongas to pick up young women. They danced close
to seduce the innocent women. They especially liked foreign women because
they had money and did not know better than to let a man dance so
disgracefully close. They even thought that dancing close was proper!

Oh, and these layabouts were too poor to own a suit, which was essential
to an evening of elegant dancing. Probably because if they did have jobs
they were just cab drivers or waiters or worked at the docks.

They amused me but they were always kind when criticizing us and gave us
useful aid in overcoming whatever problems we had. I respected them and
so respected their viewpoints and always listened attentively to them.
I heard echoes in them of what must have been said by the middle and
upper classes in Argentina when the French made tango popular for all
people. Perhaps in it was a little fear of the poor invading the elegant
halls that they themselves trod in.

Larry de Los Angeles


____________________________________________________________
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From patangos at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  8 05:48:15 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 02:48:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Those vulgar "belly bumpers"
In-Reply-To: <20080808.002206.27869.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <146747.24936.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Your post is insightful, Larry.  The video also takes place in a large hall with plenty of room.  In a more crowded room, Puppy might dance quite differently, without the space between couples.  Geraldine's parents (who influenced Geraldine) are from Villa Urquiza, I think.  Anyone know where Puppy is from?  This is one of the styles we think of as "salon".

Whether folks like it or not, "milonguero" is a term that has been accepted by enough people to make it valid description of a style of tango.  We all know what style to envision when Larry wrote:

That is, he did not dance what some people call "milonguero style."

This is how language works.  It's not as if some government council on English decides that, for example, "talk to the hand" means "don't talk to me".  Which reminds me, in countries that have nouns with genders, how do they decide if something is masculine or feminine?  Why is it "volcada" and not "volcado"?  The term came from a verb, which is gender neutral.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- On Fri, 8/8/08, larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com> wrote:

> From: larrynla at juno.com <larrynla at juno.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Those vulgar "belly bumpers"
> To: tango-L at mit.edu
> Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 3:22 AM
> Nina Pesochinsky writes ---------> You can read the
> archives of the
> tango-l. There is a story in detail about how Susana Miller
> invented the
> term "milonguero" when she began teaching in the
> early 1990s. The reason
> that Puppy and others didn't say that they danced
> "milonguero style" is
> because they didn't know that they did!:)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A
> 
> Looking at the video you can clearly see that Puppy always
> left a space
> between himself and his partner. That is, he did not dance
> what some
> people call "milonguero style."
> 
> While I was working for NASA I was sent fairly regularly to
> San Francisco.
> I often could take a long weekend and danced and took
> classes. One of my 
> favorite teaching couples were Argentine. They described
> their style as
> "salon" and a separation was an essential part of
> it. They complained 
> about the "vulgar" style that some people had
> begun to bring back from
> Buenos Aires.
> 



      

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  5 23:56:39 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
Message-ID: <948072.52285.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Chris,
I completely agree with you and no one has ever said that ... "one particular 
predefined sequence is the only thing that is called volcada". I don't know
where you got that idea. Just check YouTube and you'll find countless
variations of Volcadas.
It's my view that tango is a fast-evolving art form and the meanings of words 
do change due to common usage. It just seems to me that it would help in 
communication if we all understand a word to mean the same thing and to stop 
arguing semantics.?We can leave the original, actual true meaning of the words 
to the history books and the academics, while we concentrate on the dancing.?
Nowadays, it seems that a 'Volcada' as the word is now commonly used, 
involves more than just a lean - that would be?a Puente or Carpa. If it includes 
the man walking around the lady, that would be a Calesita. 
IMHO, a Volcada, during the leaning action,?includes a forward and / or sideways 
movement of the lady's free leg. Of course, this leg can then do many things, 
either as adornments or as led by the man, and the foot can end in different 
positions, in front or behind. I had one teacher who described Front and Back 
Volcadas, depending on the final position of the moving foot.
Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2 at chrisjj.com>
> 
> What it tells us Jack is that some people have got the idea that one 
> particular predefined sequence is the only thing that is called volcada... 
> > 



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 00:12:31 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Message-ID: <140471.81978.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Joe, 
I admire you, but from my own experience, I think you're unusual. 
Most people, after they've been dancing for a few years, develop 
a 'preferred style'. Of course there will always be exceptions such 
as changing style for a performance or dancing with a partner who 
has a fondness for Nuevo figures, etc. But changing styles is usually 
an exception, not the rule.
Personally, I enjoy my own style and I choose my partners knowing 
that they also like my style. Maybe I'm boring and not adventurous 
enough, but I hate surprises and want to feel comfortable when I dance.
Btw, I'm talking about milongas here. Classes and practicas are fine 
for explorations.
Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens at gmail.com>
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I dance differently with different women. I? 
> find that the embrace is absolutely unique with each partner I dance? 
> with. I don't know what the embrace will be -- I explore the? 
> possibilities on the first dance.. I explore them further with each? 
> successive dance ...?>> 


      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  8 02:00:10 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 23:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
Message-ID: <799849.98643.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
> 
> First few seconds.? Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her leg does float 
> behind and then wraps around front, and then 
> she is lead to settle onto her left foot.? ? A front boleo???? A front ocho???? 
> Simply a cross??
>

I'd say that Liz is dancing a small, low, Back Boleo because, as Tom 
says, her free leg is floating behind. In a classical Front Ocho, the man 
would lead the lady to collect, prior to rotation. IMHO, leading the change 
of rotation prior to collection is what causes the free leg to swing into a 
Boleo. After the Boleo, Liz dances a nice cross.


----- Original Message ----
> From: "larrynla at juno.com" larrynla at juno.com

?With front boleos I have to make some 
> space for the woman to use first, either by letting her pull away from me or by 
> doing a lean.
> 
> Anyone have pointers on leading/doing front boleos?

IMO, leading a Front Boleo is the same as leading a Back Boleo, i.e.?
change the direction of rotation without first leading the lady to collect. 
In a Back Boleo, this results in the backward, swinging action of the 
free leg, whereas, in a Front Boleo, it results in the free leg wrapping 
around in front the supporting leg. No space is needed for this. 
Alternatively, the man could create space at the feet with a Volcada 
and the lady could then dance a Front Boleo?by allowing her leg to
swing forward.
?
Btw, again IMO, leading Front and Back Boleos also requires changes 
of weight, as is nicely shown in the video provided by David.

Jack



      



From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Tue Aug  5 19:55:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
In-Reply-To: <127444.35138.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080806005526.1604A@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross 
> system understanding. ... From this, you can easily work out how many
> different Sacadas are possible while walking outside partner, left or
> right side in crossed or parallel feet.

Actually you can't. All you can work out is how many different sacadas are 
possible in such a system of representation. And this tells you more about 
the limitations of the system than it does about the possibilities in the 
dance.

Again, sacada is a term of description, not the name of a step. In real 
dancing, there are countless different sacadas. These so-called systems 
that reduce them to a small set of discrete step types serve only the 
needs of the paint-by-numbers tango instructors. Dancers have no need for 
them at all.

--
Chris

From tempehuck at gmail.com  Fri Aug  8 13:14:39 2008
From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:14:39 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Those vulgar "belly bumpers"
In-Reply-To: <146747.24936.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20080808.002206.27869.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<146747.24936.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecf43f370808081014v1959dbd6vb13a909db98ba99b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
<patangos at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Whether folks like it or not, "milonguero" is a term that has
> been accepted by enough people to make it valid description
> of a style of tango.

     Perhaps, but I still refuse to use it.  As far as I'm concerned,
there are two basic types of tango:  fantasia (performing), and salon
(social).  A subset of salon is apilado, which is what Susana Miller
and Cacho Dante do.

     Coincidentally, the first time I ever heard the term "milonguero
style," it was more resembling what Larry mentioned, to wit, old
balding fat guys waddling around the dance floor like ducks.  Oddly
enough, though, it didn't come across (to me at least) as an insulting
term, but rather a respectful, authentic one, describing a more
down-to-earth, blue-collar, dancing for decades club-sytle tango.  In
other words, we can't be 20 years old, slim and delicately elegant
forever.

Huck

From jayrabe at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  8 14:11:05 2008
From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 18:11:05 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
In-Reply-To: <memo.20080806005526.1604A@HIDEchrisjj.com>
References: <127444.35138.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<memo.20080806005526.1604A@HIDEchrisjj.com>
Message-ID: <BLU120-W22F0A9C0F1384EAC1B5AD4A9740@phx.gbl>

Chris,

     Not sure I understand what you mean by "sacada" being a term of description rather than the name of a step. I always thought of a sacada as a step where one person displaces the foot (being lifted) of the other as they take a step. Surely there are many possible sacadas, so perhaps it would be better to say "sacada" is a category of steps, and you have to add more information to actually "name" a given step - "leader's right sacada on follower's trailing left foot as she does a right forward ocho." But how is this different than "ocho" as a name of a step, since there are likewise several different versions. Maybe we're playing with words, but if you could elaborate a bit on what you mean...

           J



> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:55:00 +0100
> From: tl2 at chrisjj.com
> To: Tango-L at mit.edu
> CC: tl2 at chrisjj.com
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
> 
> > Sacadas are another good example of the usefulness of the open/cross 
> > system understanding. ... From this, you can easily work out how many
> > different Sacadas are possible while walking outside partner, left or
> > right side in crossed or parallel feet.
> 
> Actually you can't. All you can work out is how many different sacadas are 
> possible in such a system of representation. And this tells you more about 
> the limitations of the system than it does about the possibilities in the 
> dance.
> 
> Again, sacada is a term of description, not the name of a step. In real 
> dancing, there are countless different sacadas. These so-called systems 
> that reduce them to a small set of discrete step types serve only the 
> needs of the paint-by-numbers tango instructors. Dancers have no need for 
> them at all.
> 
> --
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_________________________________________________________________
Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live.
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From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  8 15:14:39 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:14:39 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Those vulgar "belly bumpers"
Message-ID: <20080808.121439.18759.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

Trini writes --------> The video [showing Puppy dancing with Geraldine 
(Rojas?)] also takes place in a large hall with plenty of room.  In a 
more crowded room, Puppy might dance quite differently....

The distance between him Geraldine was only 2 or 3 inches, so perhaps 
not. But a good point. I suspect most people nowadays who dance (what my 
Argentine teachers called) "salon" do close up to milonguero style when 
the floor is full. I do, at any rate.

Speaking of milongueros (in the general sense of long-time tango dancer, 
NOT my friends' vulgar street-person!) I noticed in Argentina that many 
people danced very simply most of the evening, when the crowd was thick.

Then the last hour or two, 3-5 am, when the floor emptied out, a few of 
them began doing very advanced stuff. Not so much showing off, as 
pulling out all the stops when they had the space to do so.

At Lo de Celia (I think it was) at one point an immensely fat woman and 
a tall skinny man, both quite old, actually cleared the floor the way I 
had before only seen in dance movies. And I understood why. For one 
tanda I could only sit, my mouth decidely closed lest it hang open, and 
watch in awe.

At the end of the tanda no one applauded. A few of the old-timers gave a 
sort of reserved nod, as if to say Well Done. Not a few people simply 
packed up and left. As did I. Anything following what I had seen would 
have felt lame.

Larry de Los Angeles


____________________________________________________________
Free information on EMR systems.  Click here to compare systems.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigiK1R0bRQa8MUQVdGvadfATaMf7SO69QAQGGR5e1d1wx7gO/


From larrynla at juno.com  Fri Aug  8 15:51:28 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:51:28 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Going to Ireland!
Message-ID: <20080808.125128.13386.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>

Barring emergencies I will be in Ireland the last two weeks in September.

Anyone here with pointers about traveling there that I (and others making
similar trips) might not already have come across? Or about the Irish milongas?

My schedule allows me to go to Los Bohemios del Tango in Dublin on Friday the
19th. The next day I want to go at the Smock Alley Caf? milonga. Then in Belfast
next Saturday, the 27th, I should be able to go to The Edge restaurant for their
milonga. What a terrific looking place it seems, and what a view of the river
out the windows! I'm very much looking forward to going early and having dinner
and enjoying the view.

I'll also be in Galway, Limerick, and Cork, but not at a time when I can go to
their events.

The trip, incidentally, will be to gather photos and impressions and do research
to fold back into the two Shapechanger Chronicles novels I'm about to start
peddling via my website devoted to the series. If any of you are curious about
what I was doing when I dropped out of tango-l many years ago, this is it.

Oh, and I doubt if any of you will care to ever read the Shapechanger books, but
for the curious the first part of the first book can found online on the site.

http://shapechangers.wordpress.com

Larry de Los Angeles



____________________________________________________________
Buried in medical files?  Click here for information on an electronic system.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigiK1Wlgnu1Yruqwmo3amMKgMht9skaqHzFvWV97ppLz5PFY/


From stermitz at tango.org  Fri Aug  8 16:00:41 2008
From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:00:41 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
In-Reply-To: <799849.98643.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <799849.98643.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <77E9AF52-7C55-4274-9E1B-5973F6795C8B@tango.org>


On Aug 8, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jack Dylan wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: David Thorn <thorn-inside at hotmail.com>
>>
>> First few seconds.  Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her leg  
>> does float
>> behind and then wraps around front, and then
>> she is lead to settle onto her left foot.    A front boleo???  A  
>> front ocho???
>> Simply a cross??
>>
>
> I'd say that Liz is dancing a small, low, Back Boleo because, as Tom
> says, her free leg is floating behind. In a classical Front Ocho,  
> the man
> would lead the lady to collect, prior to rotation. IMHO, leading the  
> change
> of rotation prior to collection is what causes the free leg to swing  
> into a
> Boleo. After the Boleo, Liz dances a nice cross.

"Collecting" i.e. stopping with her feet together will kill the boleo.  
The woman should do the opposite. She should NOT collect, she should  
"pass by close".


From christian.luethen at gmx.net  Fri Aug  8 17:06:09 2008
From: christian.luethen at gmx.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Christian_L=FCthen=22?=)
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:06:09 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Going to Ireland!
In-Reply-To: <20080808.125128.13386.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080808.125128.13386.0@webmail11.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20080808210609.56610@gmx.net>

Larry,

goin' to Ireland and travelling other parts of the word to tango three websites should provide you with informatiion and links:


Rob Nuijten from Amsterdam has "torito - go tango worldwide" online:
http://www.torito.nl/ 


Garrit Fleischmann from Frankfurt has the classical tango-link-site:
http://www.cyber-tango.com/

Pay attention as the original site includes the hyphen between cyber and tango! 


Tobias Conradi from Berlin hosts:
http://www.tango.info/

The english language pages also to be found directly through 
http://eng.tango.info/ 


Happy traveling and tangoing, and do not enjoy too many Guiness! :-)
Christian

.




> Barring emergencies I will be in Ireland the last two weeks in September.
> 
> Anyone here with pointers about traveling there that I (and others making
> similar trips) might not already have come across? Or about the Irish
> milongas?
> 


-- 
GMX Kostenlose Spiele: Einfach online spielen und Spa? haben mit Pastry Passion!
http://games.entertainment.gmx.net/de/entertainment/games/free/puzzle/6169196

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  8 17:31:42 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dividing Tango
Message-ID: <136465.45895.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I was at a Milonga last week and following the line of dance.
  A couple in front of me were doing 'Nuevo' and the woman was
  swinging gold stiletto heels in wide swaths that seemed to be
  at chin height. I was feeling like the moving of my partner towards
  that whirling fan of heels was like moving her towards certain injury.'
  What the hell was I to do?  So, I paused and they inched away but
  really not enough nor at any predictable rate that I could safely follow
  behind.  Is this something new that is happening on Tango floors?
  Is this going to be the 'way it is', in the future? Should I worry about this?

       

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri Aug  8 17:35:53 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:35:53 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Open/crossed step uses?
Message-ID: <3BF912B5-049E-4D3A-A05D-FE4F93CB0BB7@gmail.com>

Jay Rabe wrote:

> Not sure I understand what you mean by "sacada" being a term of  
> description rather than the name of a step. I always thought of a  
> sacada as a step where one person displaces the foot (being lifted)  
> of the other as they take a step. Surely there are many possible  
> sacadas, so perhaps it would be better to say "sacada" is a category  
> of steps, and you have to add more information to actually "name" a  
> given step - "leader's right sacada on follower's trailing left foot  
> as she does a right forward ocho." But how is this different than  
> "ocho" as a name of a step, since there are likewise several  
> different versions. Maybe we're playing with words, but if you could  
> elaborate a bit on what you mean...
Using words in the teaching and learning of tango is fraught with error.

I remember saying once at a practica something like "it helps if you  
really go 'up' when you arrive on that leg" or something like that. I  
know I used the word "up". Later I was seeing that everyone was going  
up on tip-toes. I asked them why. They said "we're trying to go up".  
Up for me meant "stand tall" or "lengthen".... They didn't know that  
meaning.

The meaning of words is developed socially. In tango it is commonplace  
to find different people using the same words to mean very different  
things.

The tango term "sacada" (removal / displacement)  -- for me -- means  
that one person moves somewhat deeply into the space of the other  
dance partner, taking a position that creates more rotation and  
leverage during the transition between two steps. The legs or feet of  
each partner may or may not come into contact. If the man produces a  
sacada by stepping in between her feet, it is desirable that he  
*avoid* pushing her leg. In my way of thinking, if the legs touch, it  
should seem as if her leg accidentally touched his, not that he pushed  
or kicked her leg. The sacada / displacement action occurs in the  
bodies, not the legs. That is what it means *for me*. Different  
dancers use sacada action in different ways.

Are we referring to the same thing? Hard to know just through talking  
about it.

...

I remember my first private lesson with a certain teacher, some years  
ago. Near the start of the lesson he had shown us a movement sequence,  
and we did it, and later we had moved on to something else, and we  
were absorbing his technique corrections in walking and use of the  
legs. I then wanted to ask him how something he had just said applied  
to what we had been doing earlier.

I started out with "What do you call the step we were doing before?"  
That elicited a tirade. "You Americans, you always want to know what  
things are called. The movements in tango don't have names. They are  
not defined steps. There are no names. I don't understand this  
preoccupation with names for things. All you worry about is learning  
the name and you write it down and then you don't learn how to dance.  
etc. etc. etc."

When he had finished I asked him, "Well, OK, I'm just asking how you  
would describe it so I can ask you something about it."

He said "If I have to call it something, I would call it walking  
around while turning."

At the time I thought he was totally missing the point in what I was  
trying to ask about, and was giving me an unwarranted scolding, sort  
of mistaking me for someone else.

Now (years later) I think I really did deserve that lecture, and that  
it is just starting to sink in.

-joe



From keith at totango.net  Fri Aug  8 20:16:15 2008
From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:16:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <60278.69.159.127.194.1218240975.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>

So now, we have arrived at the place where one maintains one's
"credibility" on Tango-L and self-respect by ... never posting to Tango-L.

If no people show up, no one wants to go.


I am thankful that the gratuitous moronic postings have been screened-out
since my last cry for sanity.

I think a couple of fish who were a nice catch got thrown out in the big net.

It wasn't easy to start this thing, and it is not easy to keep it going.

Harder all the time.

Needs re-dedication to original principles on everybody's part.


Talk, don't yell.

Ask opinions, don't declare.

Screen for idiocy, don't dictate.

The core of Tango-L is, for the most part, silent.

Getting it's voice to speak again ought to be the only concern.

No?











From marqcertz at yahoo.com.au  Fri Aug  8 23:06:51 2008
From: marqcertz at yahoo.com.au (marquerito tjanos)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:06:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] song's name?
Message-ID: <348974.25933.qm@web36206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hi all
would anyone be able to figure out what the name of the first song is in the following youtube clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ZkO6fQJ2Y&feature=related

i recognize the last two but not the first one. a little frustrating...

M




      Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  9 08:59:24 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 05:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] song's name?
Message-ID: <198553.92299.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well, am I the only seeing the credits page on the clip which says that the first song is "La melod?a del coraz?n?" And is todotango web site wrongly labeling the same song as such?

http://www.todotango.com/audio/wax/3840.wax

Or, did I misunderstand the question? 

...dubravko
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
From: marquerito tjanos <marqcertz at yahoo.com.au>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 11:06:51 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] song's name?

hi all
would anyone be able to figure out what the name of the first song is in the following youtube clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ZkO6fQJ2Y&feature=related

i recognize the last two but not the first one. a little frustrating...

M



From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Sat Aug  9 11:24:50 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 16:24:50 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Melina=B4s_DJing_Primer?=
Message-ID: <27df1927abdd3156a25965f8abb42d56@tangokombinat.de>

Hello everybody,

I just finished translating an article on DJing that seems to have 
become something of a  standard treatise on the subject in Germany. It 
was published by Tangodanza magazine and written by dancer, DJ and 
fellow Tangokombinat member Melina Sed? (as in: Detlef & Melina).
The article covers the basics of good DJing and IMO does a good job of 
it. It strikes me as a very good intro for newbies.
There?s still a typo in the second sentence, I know it?s "criterion", 
not "criterium"... will be corrected soon.
The article bears the title "Heroes of the Silver Disc" and can be 
found on Detlef & Melina?s website:

http://www.tangodesalon.de/en/enews.htm

Cheers,
Andreas


From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Fri Aug  8 14:29:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <948072.52285.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <memo.20080808192945.3964J@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> no one has ever said that ... "one particular predefined sequence is the
> only thing that is called volcada". I don't know where you got that idea.

I got that idea from countless class teachers like the one who just wrote 
on this list:

 I am describing what is known these days as the figure called "Volcada"
 (that is the move indeed executed over and over with the wide front
 boleo ending in a cruzada.

> IMHO, a Volcada, during the leaning action,?includes a forward and / or 
> sideways movement of the lady's free leg.

Fine, but I think you'll find that interpretation exists only in people 
who've learned from teachers that define "volcada" as the label for the 
particular combination you identify. People who don't learn in such 
lessons don't acquire such labels.

> It just seems to me that it would help in communication if we all
> understand a word to mean the same thing  ... ?We can leave the
> original, actual true meaning of the words to the history books

Well Jack, while the original true meanings of words are still in use by 
so many people, you're going to find them rather hard to eradicate.

--
Chris

From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp  Sat Aug  9 02:04:32 2008
From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:04:32 +0900
Subject: [Tango-L] "Save the last dance for..."
In-Reply-To: <60278.69.159.127.194.1218240975.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
References: <60278.69.159.127.194.1218240975.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
Message-ID: <489D3370.5010803@ruby.plala.or.jp>

Last night I went to a milonga. I have been going there for years, I 
used to enjoy it but lately it has changed. Many of the old regulars are 
not coming anymore, God knows where they went.
I sat down and watched the dance floor. After a while I started to feel 
a little lonely and depressed: there was the guy I used to dance with 
often, now dancing with a girl who would not do a back ocho without a 
high kick to the front, who would not step over his foot without some 
flamboyant firulete each and every time, like raise her knee to her 
waist, sometimes moreover circulate her elegant little foot and calf in 
the air at the height of his thighs before straightening her knees and 
setting it back dow on the floor...
There was also a new lady standing at the bar, talking to Laura in 
Spanish and gesticulating wildly with her hands. "A new Argentine?" I 
thought. But then someone asked her to dance, and she did the same like 
the Japanese girl before, only her high kicks were even higher and 
straighter, shooting out into the horizontal from her waist. The man had 
carefully maneuvered her into the middle of the dance floor and since 
there were so few people there, it did not really matter but...I 
figured, the Japanese girl must have been taking lessons with this lady 
and is imitating her style now.
What really broke me then was when someone else asked one of the very 
old ladies to dance, and now she also, with her very limited abilities, 
attempted to do a few kicks. Instead of letting her boleos slide on the 
floor as usual, she raised her feet now at every boleo, even every ocho, 
trying to look a little more lively and almost losing her balance while 
trying.
"Who is this lady? Is she Argentine?" I asked Laura. I could not imagine 
that an Argentine would not know better than..."No, she is French, she 
has done ballet and modern dance", Laura said. Later I talked to the 
dancer and she told me, she was a modern performance dancer and had gone 
to Argentina for a few months to learn tango and was now looking for a 
job as a tango show dancer in Tokyo. "Actually, I?think, bellydance is 
where it's at now in Japan", I said pensively, and she answered:"I don't 
like bellydance. Yes, I have performed it several times, but I don't 
like it and I have never had any lessons in bellydance." Whew, this is 
what I suspected for a long time. Get a ballet and modern dance 
education, take a couple of months of tango lessons and then go find a 
job as a show dancer and teacher of tango and get away with it too... 
while us not so flamboyant, non-commercialised types with years and 
years of tango experience but no ballet who are guided by are own sense 
of the dance and it's feel are barely acknowledged by the tango world 
except for being "fun to dance with", "having a great sense of rhythm" 
or whatever and we have never managed or even tried to make a penny with 
it while we were busy instead discovering the heart of tango...
Anyway, I danced a bit, kept watching the dance floor and felt like 
tango had lost it's soul in this place. There were only people out there 
who either scared almost everyone else off the floor with their high 
kicks, a few who started joining and imitating those with the high 
kicks, there were those who had been around a long time, had learned 
reasonably well but not perfectly how to dance and were now trying to 
teach others and went fishing for students in this milonga by dancing 
with the beginners, trying to impress them, and throwing a triumphant 
though tense smile at spectators after leading that lady through 
multiple back sacada combinations during which she managed to at least 
never loose her shoes, she was dancing in high heel slip ons without a 
backstrap, as she did not seem to own any tango shoes yet or understand 
that she needed them.
I hung in there for a while, finally said to Laura:"Hm, she may be a 
good dancer, that French one, but I would not want to dance next to 
her." "Why?" Laura said. (WHY????) "Because I am afraid she might hit me 
with one of her high kicks." Laura did not comment and I felt I had 
better shut up before she took a dislike to me for being so critical and 
spreading "negativity" and I would end up a persona nongrata in here. 
So, I left quietly, went home and started to wonder whether I should 
also stop coming here, try to find another place or maybe just 
concentrate on bellydance. This milonga is closing soon anyway, due to 
lack of customers, probably and high maintainance, as so many of the 
interesting dacners are not coming anymore.
Maybe if some of the great old dancers came back, many of their fans 
would come back too, and this place would become a little more lively 
again and worth going to, and we could feel at home here as we used to.

p.s.
Hi, Deby...
p.p.s.
I have been trying to stick to the rules of tango-content, no 
one-liners, no open flames, not too many postings, stay polite and as 
congenial as possible... I hope, in spite of all this some friends will 
still be able to read between some of the lines...


Keith Elshaw wrote:
> So now, we have arrived at the place where one maintains one's
> "credibility" on Tango-L and self-respect by ... never posting to Tango-L.
> If no people show up, no one wants to go.
> I think a couple of fish who were a nice catch got thrown out in the big net. it is not easy to keep it going.
> Harder all the time.
> Needs re-dedication to original principles on everybody's part.
> Screen for idiocy, don't dictate.
> The core of Tango-L is, for the most part, silent.
>   


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Sat Aug  9 14:12:57 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 13:12:57 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] song's name
Message-ID: <FE7753E3-62E3-49BD-B4E2-CD37CD657CB7@gmail.com>


As Dubravko noted, the first song is "Melodia al Corazon" (performed  
by Donato orq.). The main melody is taken from Chopin's Etude in E  
major, Op. 10.

See this CD:

http://www.tangostore.com/cds-4336-19381942-Edgardo-donato

From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Sat Aug  9 14:32:29 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 13:32:29 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] song's name, cont.
Message-ID: <8CAFE226-06B3-460D-8EEA-E37B40204343@gmail.com>

 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ZkO6fQJ2Y

Thanks, Marquerito for pointing out this video of the championships in  
Santiago, Chile.

I enjoyed watching it and I love these particular musical selections.

Speaking of "style" of dancing, isn't there a remarkable uniformity of  
style in these contestants? Everyone has the same embrace, even down  
to the appearance of the hands. They all use the same steps. I would  
guess that they have studied with one or similar teachers.

Also, the dancers are using what I would call a close embrace. Would  
others call it that?

Also, they are _not_ dancing in what I would identify as "milonguero  
style." Would anyone call it that?

Does anyone know anything about the contestants, and whether they are  
aligned with a school or a style of dancing?




From spatz at tangoDC.com  Sat Aug  9 18:10:37 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:10:37 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
In-Reply-To: <948072.52285.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <948072.52285.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <489E15DD.2000605@tangoDC.com>

List,

Jack Dylan wrote:

> It's my view that tango is a fast-evolving art form and the meanings
> of words do change due to common usage.

Bear in mind that "common usage" is often Very reductive though. 
Moreover, it is often a reflection of the merely /fashionable/. There's 
too much of that already; and it stems from teachers who recycle each 
other's material, not from the dance floor itself and certainly not from 
insight.

> It just seems to me that it
> would help in communication if we all understand a word to mean the
> same thing and to stop arguing semantics.

Ah, that's just the point, Jack. You want us to agree with /your/ 
meaning, at bottom. I run into this all the time. It's called dogma, and 
it comes directly from dogmatic teaching. You can always tell when it's 
happening because the dogmatist gets defensive about something not even 
worth bothering about, having already misplaced a great deal of 
importance therein.

As Chris has been at pains to point out (thank you, Chris!), these 
move-names are only descriptive: there's no one-to-one correspondence or 
"code" that defines or denotes a movement. They're /nicknames/, not 
technical terms. Only simplistic teaching-- step-purveying, in fact-- 
relies so heavily on these dumb labels so as to convince people that the 
dance is an aggregate of such things.

> We can leave the original,
> actual true meaning of the words to the history books and the
> academics, while we concentrate on the dancing.

/We/ collectively ARE the "history books and the academics." No one else 
is talking about these things but tango dancers.

> I had one teacher who
> described Front and Back Volcadas, depending on the final position of
> the moving foot.

I know people who call them "milonguero ochos" (I call them crosses) and 
in the end it doesn't matter how you pigeonhole it. The names are just 
descriptions, and the description isn't the important part. More often 
than not, it's actually a big distraction.

Chris, UK wrote:
> I think you'll find that interpretation exists only in
> people who've learned from teachers that define "volcada" as the
> label for the particular combination you identify. People who don't
> learn in such lessons don't acquire such labels.

This is the salient point. And it's much the same point as was made 
during the "change of direction" discussion. Somewhere along the line, 
people started believing in classroom jargon as though it were some kind 
of Tango scripture.

Is all this merely semantic? I don't believe so. They reveal the values 
and the expectations of the dancer.

Certain Argentines, I've noticed, steer away from the terms "leader and 
follower" while teaching in English, and say "man and woman" instead. 
It's a tacit shibboleth. It declares their understanding and their 
priorities, to those who have ears to hear it. It is not "semantic": it 
is a meaningful gesture. That's all that dancing is, when you get beyond 
the moves.

Jake

From nina at earthnet.net  Sat Aug  9 21:28:03 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:28:03 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] "Save the last dance for..."
In-Reply-To: <489D3370.5010803@ruby.plala.or.jp>
References: <60278.69.159.127.194.1218240975.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
	<489D3370.5010803@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080809190935.01b94390@earthnet.net>

I deleted Astrid's original post from this e-mail because it made it 
too long to be posted.  To make sense of my comment, you need to read her post.

Astrid,

Beautiful and sad post.  Tango as we knew and loved it is dying.  If 
we don't admit it, we might miss the right moment to say goodbye 
properly before its last breath.

Instead of seduction and pleasure, it has become a dance of 
engineering figures.  It takes both partners to know their part on a 
level that goes beyond the movement in tango.  Astrid, the ladies 
value the kicks because this is all that they might get in that 
dance.  The men, on the other hand, might make it a sport to control 
the wild, kicking partner and try to make something of the 
dance.  They call it "connection" and marvel at how well each "leads" 
or "follows".

Here, you might see milongas where men no longer lust after the women 
they dance with.  They don't even pretend to lust after them or after 
a dance with them!  Not even out of politeness!  And the women try so 
hard to have a  bit of some exciting energy with the men that they 
loose their dignity pursuing it.

This beautiful dance of men and women came into a culture outside of 
Argentina that has long ago suffocated the sexy and exciting energy 
between strangers.  And now it's suffocating this dance, because it 
"loves" it and has "embraced" it...  And now the dance does not even 
exist in Buenos Aires.  There are some precious exceptions, but they 
are dissappearing.

Argentine tango, which we knew and loved, is dying.  Every day, I 
honor it and try to keep the memory.  I don't want to miss that last 
moment, one and only chance, to say goddbye.

Nina


From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  9 21:43:01 2008
From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 18:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-W LAS VEGAS FESTIVAL 08!!!!
Message-ID: <25516.62300.qm@web58803.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Dear Tango Friends,

We are looking forward to see all of you attend and share Magic Lucky Tango Nights Festival with us, we have an amazing schedule like never before at any tango festival. Considering the economic situation we have extended the Early Bird Registration until AUGUST 10TH. Hopefully this will give you more time to organize your itinerary and take advantage of the money savings in a calm fashion.
For more information please visit www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


Un abrazo
Magic Lucky Tango Cast


Amigos tangueros dado a los pedidos de muchos de ustedes por razones economicas, concideramos justo extender el early bird, conservando el precio actual hasta el 10 de agosto, de esa forma podran hacer sus compras de pasajes y registracion con mas tranquilidad. Esperamos verlos de esta forma a todos en el 2 magic lucky tango night,para mas informacion por favor visitar la pagina de internet www.lasvegastangoweekend.com

Un abrazo!
Magic? Lucky Tango Cast

---------
Teachers:
Fernanda & Guillermo
Hugo Latorre
Los Hermanos Macana
Graciela Gonzalez

Musicians:
Melanie Hutton
The Motta's tango Group
Pepe and Pablo Motta

What happens in Vegas!!! 
Stays in LasVegasTangoWeekend.com



Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 

7345 S.Durango Dr # B-107-278 
Las Vegas Nv 89113 

Contact 702-379-6057 
Contact 702-372-9581 

www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


      

From magictangoweekend at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  9 21:43:29 2008
From: magictangoweekend at yahoo.com (Magic, Lucky Tango Nights)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-C Las Vegas Festival 08!!!!!
Message-ID: <958158.98877.qm@web58811.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Dear Tango Friends,

We are looking forward to see all of you attend and share Magic Lucky Tango Nights Festival with us, we have an amazing schedule like never before at any tango festival. Considering the economic situation we have extended the Early Bird Registration until AUGUST 10TH. Hopefully this will give you more time to organize your itinerary and take advantage of the money savings in a calm fashion.
For more information please visit www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


Un abrazo
Magic Lucky Tango Cast


Amigos tangueros dado a los pedidos de muchos de ustedes por razones economicas, concideramos justo extender el early bird, conservando el precio actual hasta el 10 de agosto, de esa forma podran hacer sus compras de pasajes y registracion con mas tranquilidad. Esperamos verlos de esta forma a todos en el 2 magic lucky tango night,para mas informacion por favor visitar la pagina de internet www.lasvegastangoweekend.com

Un abrazo!
Magic? Lucky Tango Cast

---------
Teachers:
Fernanda & Guillermo
Hugo Latorre
Los Hermanos Macana
Graciela Gonzalez

Musicians:
Melanie Hutton
The Motta's tango Group
Pepe and Pablo Motta

What happens in Vegas!!! 
Stays in LasVegasTangoWeekend.com



Magic,Lucky,Tango,Nights 

7345 S.Durango Dr # B-107-278 
Las Vegas Nv 89113 

Contact 702-379-6057 
Contact 702-372-9581 

www.lasvegastangoweekend.com


      

From tangotangotango at gmail.com  Sat Aug  9 22:39:16 2008
From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 20:39:16 -0600
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Tango-L]_Melina=B4s_DJing_Primer?=
In-Reply-To: <27df1927abdd3156a25965f8abb42d56@tangokombinat.de>
References: <27df1927abdd3156a25965f8abb42d56@tangokombinat.de>
Message-ID: <9fb1555a0808091939u46b1775fr7b721667131f64e6@mail.gmail.com>

*"The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos..."*

-Laughable.

Neil

From tl2 at chrisjj.com  Sun Aug 10 13:03:00 2008
From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina´s_DJing_Primer
In-Reply-To: <27df1927abdd3156a25965f8abb42d56@tangokombinat.de>
Message-ID: <memo.20080810180332.2960M@HIDEchrisjj.com>

> I just finished translating an article on DJing that seems to have 
> become something of a  standard treatise on the subject in Germany
> ...
> The article covers the basics of good DJing and IMO does a good job

Andreas, you'd probably want to give Berlin a miss when I'm DJing at the  
major Friday and Saturday night milongas. If you really believe in stuff 
like "especially avoid playing a milonga tango right after romantic Cal?", 
you'd hate it. I break at least three of your rules every night.

To anyone considering considering visting the milongas of Germany and the 
surrounds, please do not let this article put you off. I promise we have 
very few DJs who need a tango instructor's treatise to tell them "It is 
very useful to group the music in tandas".

Excellent DJs to look out for include (in no particular order) 
Michael R?hl, Garritt Fleischmann, Irma Gross, Daniel Montangero, Thorsten 
Z?rner, Martin Omlin, Matias Valentin, Tommaso Fiorilli.

--
Chris

PS Neil wrote:

> *"The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos..."*
> 
> -Laughable.

Late Pugliese instrumentals were popular a couple of years ago at the 
height of the nuevo fad. There has since been a market correction. ;)





From tango at tangodesalon.de  Sun Aug 10 13:46:33 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Detlef_Engel_&_Melina_Sed=F3?=)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:46:33 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Quoting and quoting ...
References: <mailman.363.1218385442.21477.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <091901c8fb11$07c1db20$2101a8c0@PCDETLEF>

+++ Related to: Melinas DJing Primer

Message: 9
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Melinas DJing Primer

*"The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos..."*

-Laughable.

Neil

+++ To all: Please quote fairly!

The original sentence is:
"The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos, late Di Sarli (with vocals, too), rousing valses or dramatic Biagi pieces."

Don't take things out of context like in this case ...

All the best, see some of you in october ;-)

Detlef



Melina Sed? & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
www.tangodesalon.de
tango at tangodesalon.de

Dudweilerstrasse 77

D - 66111 Saarbr?cken

(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669









From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Sun Aug 10 15:28:18 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:28:18 +0100
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Tango-L]_Melina=B4s_DJing_Primer?=
Message-ID: <864712c127fab43b6f53c85215039f31@tangokombinat.de>

Chris,

 >> Andreas, you'd probably want to give Berlin a miss when I'm DJing at 
the
major Friday and Saturday night milongas. <<

What a cute little plug!
I really like Berlin as a city - I once lived there - but to go there 
to dance tango? You must be joking. Tango-wise, Berlin is the sticks. 
Things must be really bad where you live...
If you really want to know places to go and dance in Germany, maybe 
check out Thorsten?s (Zoerner, that is...) new website about 
traditional milongas and DJs:

www.tango-tradicional.de

Check out the names of the DJs he put on there... both who is on it and 
who is not.


 >> If you really believe in stuff ...,
you'd hate it. I break at least three of your rules every night.<<

First, they are not MY rules. I didn?t write the article.
Second, rules can help beginning DJs. If you CAN break these "rules" 
properly, and know what you?re doing, then fine, ignore the article, 
you don?t need it. It?s aimed at beginners or people who didn?t know 
where to start or those who didn?t care.
Oh yes, and third, it clearly says "guidelines..." not rules.
Fourth, I break many of these "rules" myself when I DJ, and I believe 
so does Melina. Jeeez. And to think we Germans have a reputation for 
being anal...

I believe the article had a positive effect in Germany.
If some of the DJs in Berlin would have read it, maybe they?d start 
using cortinas...or proper tandas, for that matter.


 >>...please do not let this article put you off.<<


This from someone who thinks Berlin and Paris are the places to go 
to... oh dear.


 >> I promise we have
very few DJs who need a tango instructor's treatise to tell them ...<<

"We"? How patronising can you get? You *German* DJs, huh?
And Melina is not only a tango instructor, but also a dancer and a DJ 
well-respected by, among others, some of the DJs you list below, and by 
Argentinean visitors. Who are *you* to talk like this, Chris? The way I 
heard it, you have to work for free to be allowed to DJ in Berlin.


 >> Excellent DJs to look out for include (in no particular order) ...
<<

Interesting list, but a bit puzzling whom you put on one list with 
Thorsten, who, by the way, is not only an excellent DJ but also likes 
my DJing as well as Melina?s...

This is all I have to say on the subject.

Andreas

From thorstenzoerner at gmx.de  Sun Aug 10 16:37:32 2008
From: thorstenzoerner at gmx.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thorsten_Z=F6rner?=)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:37:32 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Purpose of tango-tradicional.de - Was Melina's DJing
	Primer
Message-ID: <BDE2767C-9723-4E2C-86E0-FEC5D7F3CBF9@gmx.de>

Dear all,

first off let me thank for your positive remarks on my DJ work. I  
appreciate it very much.

Then I need to clarify something about tango-tradicional.de:

Andreas wrote:
> If you really want to know places to go and dance in Germany, maybe
> check out Thorsten?s (Zoerner, that is...) new website about
> traditional milongas and DJs:
>
> www.tango-tradicional.de

Okay, I've put up a new web page some three weeks ago
in order to promote traditional tango - predominantly in Germany,
but also across the borders (already one swiss entry).

Further Andreas wrote:
> Check out the names of the DJs he put on there...


As the list is very new, I am currently waiting for and encouraging  
more and new entries...
and I am actually waiting for the first entry from Berlin.
Why shouldn't there be any traditional DJs?
In fact I can think of some immediately, but I would prefer to have  
their input directly,
rather than including them unasked into my list.

Finally I quote Andreas:
> both who is on it and who is not.

No! Sorry, Andreas, to call you out on this.
But nobody should use this list to reason that the milongas, DJs and  
festivals of traditional tango music mentioned are the best or even  
everything else is bad. Not true, not my intention.
My list only serves as a *positive*, necessarily incomplete list for  
those,
who love traditional tango in tandas and cortinas.


Have a nice Sunday,
cheers,
Thorsten.

http://www.TangoDuesseldorf.de/
http://www.tango-tradicional.de/






From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Sun Aug 10 19:05:02 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:05:02 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] Purpose of tango-tradicional.de - Was Melina's DJing
	Primer
Message-ID: <12f6b249f52c214f452e0c0ff33c2353@tangokombinat.de>

Hello Thorsten,

Thorsten wrote:

 >> ...Then I need to clarify something about tango-tradicional.de: <<<

 >> But nobody should use this list to reason that the milongas, DJs and
festivals of traditional tango music mentioned are the best or even
everything else is bad. <<

Sorry if I came across implying that. Apologies for any 
misrepresentations on my part. I?d still encourage anybody looking for 
traditional milongas in Germany to have a look at the site, as it is 
indeed a useful guide.

Cheers,
Andreas

From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU  Sun Aug 10 23:57:14 2008
From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:57:14 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina's DJing Primer (and Tango-L rules)
Message-ID: <489FB89A.10402@mit.edu>

> *"The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos..."*
> 
> -Laughable.

Normally, moderator comments about postings are sent to the individual 
concerned, but this is a good example of a posting that managed with a 
single word to violate both the spirit and letter of two Tango-L rules, 
to wit:

- 1-liners and other banal trivialities;

- Negative or critical comments with no other redeeming contribution.

The real shame is that if the poster actually had some knowledgeable 
reasons to contribute towards this opinion, he squandered the 
opportunity to add a meaningful explanation as to WHY he disagreed with 
the opinion (about Pugliese Tangos), which could have led to a 
meaningful discussion on the subject.


Disruptive behaviour such as flames, rants, straw man arguments, and the 
like have never been permitted on Tango-L and ARE being more strongly 
enforced in recent months. All posters should have read the Tango-L 
posting rules before posting, but those whose style has tended to be 
confrontational in the past all the more so. (See www.tango-L.com)

Here is an excerpt from the above-referenced section:

===============
NO FLAMES, RANTS, SWEARING OR PERSONAL ATTACKS (Strongly Enforced)!

Personal flames or attacks on individuals are not permitted on this 
list. Heated debates on the merits or otherwise of a particular Tango 
technique, music, style, etc., are perfectly appropriate; however, 
anything that degenerates into personal attacks should be relegated to 
personal e-mail. ...

Since this rule is enforced strictly and often without second chances, 
posters are advised to heed well the following:

- If you mention anyone by name (explicitly or implicitly by context) in 
a negative context, you are almost certain to run afoul of this rule. 
Any point that you wish to make or contradict about what a person said 
can be done by referring to the idea that person conveyed and not the 
person himself. Including more than one person in a flame, or referring 
generally to "all you people who ..." does not automatically shield you 
from what would otherwise be a flame if it were directed at one named 
individual.

- Generally mean-spirited or divisive posts, or rants (e.g., negative or 
complaining posts with no other redeeming content, are also prohibited 
even if no individuals are identified.

- Swearing and hard language is not permitted (use a string of asterisks 
to convey the equivalent sentiment if you feel it is necessary to make 
your point). Hate-posts against groups or individuals (e.g., based on 
race, national original) are explicitly prohibited.

- No trolling (from Wikipedia: "someone who posts controversial and 
usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as 
an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting 
other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal 
on-topic discussion) or straw man arguments (attempts to be inflammatory 
by intentionally attaching meaning to a previous post that was clearly 
not intended (for example as a vehicle for then attacking that "opinion").
===============


Shahrukh

From tango at tangodesalon.de  Mon Aug 11 13:53:06 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Detlef_Engel_&_Melina_Sed=F3?=)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:53:06 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Quoting and quoting Part 2
References: <mailman.547.1218470958.6579.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <00e401c8fbdb$1c493af0$2101a8c0@PCDETLEF>

Re: Melina?s_DJing_Primer (Chris, UK)


"Chris, UK" wrote:

Andreas, you'd probably want to give Berlin a miss when ...
If you really believe in stuff like "especially avoid playing a milonga tango right after romantic Calo, you'd hate it. I break at 
least three of your rules every night.

Chris

+++ Again the advice: Please quote fairly!

The original sentence is:
"One should especially avoid:

. directly following milongas by valses or vice versa

. playing a milonga tanda right after a tanda of very romantic or dramatic tangos

(Cal?, Fresedo, Pugliese, late Di Sarli with vocals)."

+++ Along with that: No strawman "techniques", no trolling, please!

+++ To Chris: And yes, most European (advanced) dancers are giving Berlin a miss. But be sure, it is not because of you. ;-)



+++ While taking into account personal circumstances of one or another, I kindly ask for understnding!

Thanks!



Detlef



Melina Sed? & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
www.tangodesalon.de

tango at tangodesalon.de

















From tangoartist at gmail.com  Mon Aug 11 13:59:22 2008
From: tangoartist at gmail.com (Kathryn Johns)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:59:22 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] NA-E:Tango Therapy Conference in Rosario by Christina
	Johnson
Message-ID: <370d16c10808111059t548e1065qb291069a7ce3a602@mail.gmail.com>

                           TANGO: A LIFE SAVER

            What soothes your heart, lowers your blood pressure,
cancels out diabetes, and counteracts depression?
What allows more balance and confidence to those with Parkinson's
disease? And gives people with Downs Syndrome a way to solidly inhabit
their bodies with more grace and precision? What unites your psyche
with knowledge of the body, inspires your endocrine system with
endorphins, and fattens your chances of a longer and much happier
life? Without Alzheimer's.
            Argentine Tango.

Yes, indeed; dance your way to maximum health and superior cognitive
mastery within the ecstatic embrace of tango!

I returned July 22 from the first International Tango Therapy
Conference in Rosario, Argentina.  I was invited to present a
miniature version of my workshop: Argentine tango: the Relationship
Dance.
The workshop is about the polarities of masculine/feminine energy, the
different brain functions of men and women, and how tango is a perfect
metaphor for why we need, and love, each other.
The conference brought together many professionals who have all
learned that the dance of Argentine tango has brought about
extraordinary, positive changes in many lives.
It is a HUGE undertaking to put on a conference.
I wish to heartily congratulate Ms. Marisa Adriana Maragliano, one of
the organizers, for doing an exceptional job. She cloned herself to be
everywhere at once, and had her finger on every rhythmic pulse of the
Conference.
There were many supporters and organizers who merit acclaim and
recognition:  ( see:
http://www.congresotangoterapia.com/organizadores.htm),

The conference was at the Hotel Ariston in Rosario, Argentina.
 More than four hours by bus from Buenos Aires; Rosario is a river
port city that has a top quality art museum and other interesting
sights. However, free time was brief if one wanted to get to all of
the presentations.
Tango milongas on two out of three evenings took the leftover hours of
sleep, and so heavy lidded participants arrived late every morning.
Almost all of the participants and presenters were also tango dancers,
so the milongas were well attended.

Largely psychotherapists, psychologists, and medical doctors did the
discourses and presentations. Most of the events were in lecture form,
although the last day allowed for experiential events involving
movement and/or dance.

The first morning Drs. Ricardo Comasco and  Luis Aposta opened the
conference. They both represent work from the Favoloro Foundation; a
well-known and respected specialty heart clinic in Buenos Aires.
 Their research, using equipment to measure oxygen consumption and
heart rate, clearly shows that dancing tango gives one optimum
exercise without strain. In addition, flexibility is increased,
self-awareness increases, depression relieved, and social anxieties
reduced.
            Some very humorous tango posters from the turn of the
century were shown, at a lecture on "los Bailes del Internado". In the
early 1900's, medical interns and doctors took to tango in a morbid
frenzy. Posters showed doctors with bloody aprons and scalpels dancing
tango together. Social milongas were hosted by interns, and once in
awhile severed anatomy was hidden at the milongas for a joke.
            Fortunately, it seems the love of tango is still alive in
the Argentine and Uruguayan medical profession, but is now pairing the
gift of science with the dance instead of with the macabre.
            Presentations included subjects of : individuation through
tango; encountering the psyche's shadow and using the alchemical
process of transformation turning darkness into luminous light.
            Feldenkrais method and body awareness. Presentations
included movement and exercises to awaken and limber the body. These
were very well led, and a welcome relief from sitting still in chairs
during presentations.
Using "Psicotango," participants succeeded in using all the senses to
rediscover movement and connection to each other. This kind of
awareness is, in my opinion, at the heart of tango, and is what
contributes to the pleasure of a dance.
It is the art of play itself, and continual re-discovery, that makes
the inner smile widen during a tango dance.
            Another presentation stressed that tango keeps us alive in
our basic core, as it enlivens the libido. Through the ritual and
ceremony of tango and its customs, it becomes a group participation
dance of life celebration, not just a ritual for two.

            Musicology was also introduced as a healing therapy; with
interesting data about illness dropping away after hearing different
tones, notes, and rhythms. Memory retention, help for Alzheimers and
dementia were also addressed in a talk about favorable results of
movement and sound when they are coherent and integrated.
            One complete dissertation was on the embrace of tango, and
the healing effects of partnering in a dance where hearts beat in
unison, and where contact and touch become a healing art. The speaker
was Dr. Federico Trossero, a psychiatrist, tango performer, tango
teacher, and researcher of tango as a therapy. His book is called
Tango Terapia.
           Another book, Con el Corazon en el Tango, Includes research
data The author is Dr, Roberto Peidro, chief of Cardiovascular
Rehabilitation at the Favoloro Hospital in Buenos Aires.
            Short films were shown of mentally and physically
handicapped people, including those with Down's syndrome, dancing in
hospital halls. Enlightened and free with their new dance ability,
their movement was graceful and their co-ordination was extraordinary.
At the conference itself, a young, beautiful, and blind participant
was in not only my workshop, but also several others. Her dance
ability was extraordinary. At one point, I tried to discourage her
from an exercise in my workshop where she could have been physically
harmed, but she exclaimed, "This is something I want to do! Why won't
you let me try?"
Not only did she complete the exercise, but also she excelled! The
room exploded with applause.

            Other presenters come from half way around the world to
the conference. Dr. Gammon Earhart from the USA spoke about the
improvement of functional mobility for Parkinson's patients using
tango as a therapy. Dr. Patricia McKinley, from McGill University in
Montreal, spoke about improvement of elderly patients through tango
study. I hope I have not excluded any presenters who traveled far for
this extraordinary conference.

            Dr, Leon Gerner, from Uruguay, did a wonderful talk on
tango and alternative health lifestyle. Dr Gerner will have a link
page to all of the presenters at the conference, both in English and
Spanish. He will also have data available on the research done and
statistics with tango and health.
(http://www.crecelindo.org/eng/content/category/5/14/27/)

            On the day of departure, as I was getting luggage on to
the bus, one of the young presenters introduced herself. Her
presentation had been on Zero Conflict tango. Her thesis is that tango
is a way to self realize, and to deepen a commitment to non-violence
by promoting harmony, group interests, and awareness. She travels
internationally, using tango as a way to promote peace.
(http://www.ceroconflictotango.com)

Finally, on the bus ride back to Buenos Aires, I was mentally
reviewing the conference. I was sitting next to the woman who had been
my seatmate on the way to Rosario. She is a beautiful and celebrated
journalist and radio show host in Buenos Aires. We made friends on the
trip, and even saw each other for a dance and supper on the same night
we arrived in BA.

The others on the bus were singing tangos, mariachi tunes, giggling,
laughing, and caught in an ephemeral web woven by Argentine tango. It
was like a bus to summer camp! The buzz of youth hummed through the
bus, and sewed our ages in years into a gay, inspired, human crazy
quilt of hundreds of pieces.

"What is it," I thought, "that makes us so devoted to tango? "

I thought of the local tanguero who had helped me with my
presentation. He was knowledgeable, kind, tender, an amazing dancer by
night; a paramedic by day. My ideas, he said, were tangential to his
own. He was inspired to consider what nurtured him as a man, and how
tango made him a better person.
As I struggled to leave his magnificent  ( and exemplary) tango
embrace during our presentation, more material surfaced in me that I
had learned from the conference:

"The embrace of tango releases oxytocin for the woman. If she does not
trust her partner before the embrace, she will feel bonded to him
after the embrace. Like it or not, the loving embrace releases
oxytocin. Oxytocin bonds the mother to her baby and the lover to her
mate."


"The tango embrace is going back to the Mother, where we came from,
and where our world is nothing but Love, and where the 'two" become
"one".  This third "one", who emerges from the "two, " is the one who
is present when we are really dancing a tango that transforms, and a
tango  that heals."

And finally, a quote from one of the organizers, Oscar Derudi:
" Tango is a marvelous soundtrack to a movie called 'Life'. "

From spatz at tangoDC.com  Mon Aug 11 17:34:44 2008
From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:34:44 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
In-Reply-To: <3BF912B5-049E-4D3A-A05D-FE4F93CB0BB7@gmail.com>
References: <3BF912B5-049E-4D3A-A05D-FE4F93CB0BB7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48A0B074.40001@tangoDC.com>

Excellent post by Joe! Additional (lengthy) comments below.

Joe Grohens wrote:
 > The meaning of words is developed socially. In tango it is commonplace
 > to find different people using the same words to mean very different
 > things.

This is very true, and the salient point of the recent exchanges about
"Changes of Direction" and "Volcadas" and the like. Ultimately, the
communication reaches an impasse when people start assigning overly
technical meanings to these words. Trouble is, it's a symptom that such
a person's dance has reached an impasse as well-- if only that person
could see it.

But there's a more down-to-earth level to this as well, which may help
demonstrate why this sort of thing is not merely semantic, but an index
of one's values and experience as a dancer.

We teachers often use very simple words in our classes & lessons:
"embrace" or "walking" or "connection"-- none of these are mysterious
terms. At first, new dancers take them for granted, assuming that they
understand the dance because they understand the word. Then, as they
discover the /thing/ and begin to deepen their knowledge, they realize
they DIDN'T understand the word in the beginning at all.

Very often, dancers will have a minor revelation at this point, smack
themselves in the foreheads, and repeat precisely the same words they've
heard in class or around the milongas, surprised at the new sense they
make. We've all done it and we've all seen others do it. It happens
because we understand the /thing/ freshly, and are revising the word's
connotations (and denotations) accordingly. That is, our first-hand,
direct experience with the /dance/ leads us to consider the word as
something more meaningful, or more specific in its meaning.

The danger is that, with a little learning of this type, the word can
get locked in its new meaning or association, and become a technical or
specific term that essentially is being used as shorthand for something
very particular. The knowledge itself seeming like an achievement, the
word becomes invested with personal triumph. And it's hard to give up
that triumph when it has launched one past a former barrier.

But-- it's just a renewed case of taking the word for granted. The word
itself represents an idea, an experience, a degree of understanding: and
by fixing its meaning too much, a dancer only /establishes/ another
impasse. Namely, by turning a simple word from plain prose into jargon.

Those of us who have (so to speak) gone well beyond this point, and
sundered the cocoon of jargon for ourselves-- in our dance and in our
talking about the dance-- are naturally going to take issue with those
who insist that their stepping-stone is a monument. The words for us are 
poetic, not technical. To make them technical is a reduction, and 
moreover one that may very easily mislead someone who's on a more 
promising path.

It is small-minded teaching, and it interferes with deeper progress and 
enjoyment. It makes deeper progress exponentially more difficult. It is 
crutches, not dancing.

I see this happening all the time as a teacher and dancer, and it makes
me increasingly critical of how teachers give their students half-truths
and shortcuts. It leads to disappointment on the dance floor and-- after
an initial burst of progress-- to a more serious and lasting retardation
of growth. It afflicts teachers most of all: I've seen so many of them
atrophy, largely because they seduce themselves into believing their own
half-truths, they lose their curiosity, and they delude themselves into 
thinking they own something. I would even say it's a more dangerous
professional hazard than physical fatigue, because it erodes the soul &
imagination of a dancer.

In short: It's very easy to let words, once invested with the beginnings
of direct discovery, define the dance. The more fruitful way is to keep
the causality the other way around, with the dance providing the words
with meaning and the words never hijacking the dance. That, after all, 
is what produces the initial breakthroughs: ego is the only thing that 
shuts off the valve thereafter.

Again, bravo to Joe for a great post, whose ending presents this in an 
ego-free personal account. And bravo to those who patiently, tenaciously 
indicate when language is being pigeonholed-- though doing such so often 
invites others to get defensive of their own minor triumphs and to 
retaliate with accusations of mere semanticism, when in truth it's 
completely the other way around.

Jake


From flame at 2xtreme.net  Wed Aug 13 15:33:41 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:33:41 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Eduardo Saucedo & Marisa Quiroga
Message-ID: <48A2D4A5.29730.4654D26@flame.2xtreme.net>

I just posted a new video of Eduardo & Marisa dancing milonga on You tube. 
I'd like to hear any any comments you might have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqNdLnepqLg

Thanks,
TaiChiDancer

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 14 15:31:24 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Me on TV doing Tango
Message-ID: <457494.34772.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm in a small vignette on web TV
  http://cbs3.com/brewer/argentine.tango.philadelphia.2.794729.html
  I'm taking classes in Phila. with some great dancer/teachers
  That's me with the white shirt and glasses.
  Now, everyone can see that I'm not too cheap to take classes.
  ..and I'm 

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 14 15:31:23 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:31:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Me on TV doing Tango
Message-ID: <785501.39042.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm in a small vignette on web TV
  http://cbs3.com/brewer/argentine.tango.philadelphia.2.794729.html
  I'm taking classes in Phila. with some great dancer/teachers
  That's me with the white shirt and glasses.
  Now, everyone can see that I'm not too cheap to take classes.
  ..and 

       

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 14 17:08:16 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Eduardo Saucedo
Message-ID: <491441.76184.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I liked this couple's milonga a lot! It is creatively innovative...really unique yet keeps
  to the Milonga traditional style..imo.
  Of course it is a performance dance but looks like it could easily adapt to social
  dance conditions. The couple uses a really up close connection and the bodies 
  often meld together..much different than the often robot-like 'mantain your own axis'
  couples..
  I like the attention that they give to the look of the feet inneracting..
  what's not to like, this is a great dance. It has the Mario seal of approval.

       

From tango at tangodesalon.de  Fri Aug 15 12:11:22 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:11:22 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Melina=B4s=5FDJing=5FPrimer?=
Message-ID: <9435D6A9-B6CA-4894-8647-4F670F92EAF3@tangodesalon.de>

Hey all,

after I've been away for a couple of days, I was quite surprised by  
the personal attacks and complaints to my DJing article, that was  
posted by Andreas.

Just to specify:
- The article was written and published in April 2006 in the  
Tangodanza magazine. While travelling, I was encountering a lot of  
Milongas without proper DJing. This inspired my to write a few lines.
  - The article was not meant to be patronizing but as a help or  
guideline for aspiring DJs or Tango-scenes without a DJ. Quite a few  
tango-organizers and DJs thanked me for my efforts.
- Yes: Pugliese was much "hipper" then, as he is now. Today, I would  
not rank him so high, but he is still one of the masters of dramatic  
Tango. One Tanda of Pugliese at the high point of the evening can  
surely be no mistake. No need to insult me.

That's it.

Bye,

Melina




Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
-------------------------------------
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango at tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669





From nina at earthnet.net  Fri Aug 15 12:28:45 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:28:45 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?b?TWVsaW5htHNfREppbmdfUHJpbWVy?=
In-Reply-To: <9435D6A9-B6CA-4894-8647-4F670F92EAF3@tangodesalon.de>
References: <9435D6A9-B6CA-4894-8647-4F670F92EAF3@tangodesalon.de>
Message-ID: <20080815102845.eev6xcsfpcsg8g0g@webmail.earthnet.net>

Melina,

Just a word of suuport.  Pugliese tandas are very special.  They carry  
greater meaning to Argentine people than to foreigners.

Maestro Pugliese was a communist sympathizer and was very much  
disliked by Peron in the 1940s.  Some of his greatest music was  
recorded then.  For Argentine people, this music is very special.   
When Horacio Godoy DJayed the famous Club Almagro on Tuesday nights  
many years ago, which was one of the most incredible milongas of all  
time, he dimmed the lights and the people, most of whom were Argentine  
at that time, which was 10 years ago or so, would find their most  
special dance partner for that tanda.  It was amazing to see people  
who sat all night, clearly by choice, get up just once during the  
night and for this one tanda.

In terms of music, Pugliese arrangements are very special.  He was a  
communist and so if you listen carefully to the music, you might  
discover that the instruments have equally featured parts.

Because we dance to historic music, its meaning must include the  
stories and what it meant to the people throughout the decades of its  
life.  We cannot just know the music and the lyrics.  Just as tango is  
inseparable from the poetry of its lyrics, it is inseparable from the  
history of Argentina.

All the best,

Nina



Quoting Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango at tangodesalon.de>:

> Hey all,
>
> after I've been away for a couple of days, I was quite surprised by
> the personal attacks and complaints to my DJing article, that was
> posted by Andreas.
>
> Just to specify:
> - The article was written and published in April 2006 in the
> Tangodanza magazine. While travelling, I was encountering a lot of
> Milongas without proper DJing. This inspired my to write a few lines.
>   - The article was not meant to be patronizing but as a help or
> guideline for aspiring DJs or Tango-scenes without a DJ. Quite a few
> tango-organizers and DJs thanked me for my efforts.
> - Yes: Pugliese was much "hipper" then, as he is now. Today, I would
> not rank him so high, but he is still one of the masters of dramatic
> Tango. One Tanda of Pugliese at the high point of the evening can
> surely be no mistake. No need to insult me.
>
> That's it.
>
> Bye,
>
> Melina
>
>
>
>
> Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
> -------------------------------------
> www.tangodesalon.de
> www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
> tango at tangodesalon.de
> (0049) (0)681 9381839
> (0049) (0)177 4340669
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>



----------------------------------------------------------------
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From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 15 19:02:49 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:02:49 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Melina=B4s=5FDJing=5FPrimer?=
In-Reply-To: <20080815102845.eev6xcsfpcsg8g0g@webmail.earthnet.net>
References: <9435D6A9-B6CA-4894-8647-4F670F92EAF3@tangodesalon.de>
	<20080815102845.eev6xcsfpcsg8g0g@webmail.earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <48A60B19.6090505@yahoo.com>

Pugliese was also the only orchestra leader, as I understand it, to 
share all his earnings equally with orchestra members.
and for those who don't already know....he was jailed several times for 
his beliefs ...and it's said a rose was always left at his piano while 
he was gone.

Also many dancers not that familiar with the music think of Pugliese as 
only the very dramatic 50's -'60s period.
His music from the  mid to late '40's, especially tracks like Raza 
Criolla, Vayen Saliendo, Entrada Prohibida and Mala Pinta for example 
are beautiful beyond words ( but  not for most beginner dancers - his 
rhythm is very elastic...)..in my experience these and the earlier 
tracks such as Tierra Querida, Boedo, El Monito, are played more 
frequently in BsAs as well.
Ilene

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:

 >Melina,
 >
 >Just a word of suuport.  Pugliese tandas are very special.  They carry 
 >greater meaning to Argentine people than to foreigners.


>  
>

From petronio at adam.com.au  Fri Aug 15 20:38:36 2008
From: petronio at adam.com.au (Pat Petronio)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:08:36 +0930
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina?s_DJing_Primer
Message-ID: <001a01c8ff38$6b78f600$6a01a8c0@BOBA63C8FE0B6>

It has been very interesting to observe the reactions to Melina's essay on DJing.  

Surely the intention of her essay was to share some general guidelines on structuring the music for a milonga - particularly useful for budding or inexperienced DJs. Like most creative undertakings there will be differences of approach based on any number of influences. However one needs a starting point.  I think Melina's essay certainly provides that. Other DJs, such as Stephen and Susan Brown from Tejastango, have also shared their practical advice. Such writings help to guide newbies, perhaps confirm DJ practice, provoke us as DJs to reflect on our choices .... as well as stimulate experimentation - because we are all different in our approaches and musical preferences.  

Finally, I see these writings as one of several vehicles for increasing appreciation - amongst the dancers - of the music presented for milongas. Usually dancers will quickly feel when the music is working or not working. Such articles help to provide them, and the DJ, with an understanding of why that might be so. 

Thank you Melina, and others, who go to the trouble of sharing your experience with the tango community.


Patricia Petronio
Tango Sal?n Adelaide
www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Fri Aug 15 19:48:15 2008
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:48:15 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] =?windows-1252?Q?Melina=B4s=5FDJing=5FPrimer?=
Message-ID: <48A615BF.4060203@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Hi Melina, I read the entire article finally just today, and it is in 
fact a very good primer on DJing. It is based on philosophies that I 
almost entirely share, and you did a good job in converting them into 
practical suggestions, which is always difficult, since it is trying to 
reduce a philosophy and experience into some "rules," which of course 
always ends up being an over-simplification to some extent. But it meets 
its objectives very well. I'd encourage you to post the entire article 
on Tango-L (copied and pasted in text format).

Some specific comments:

> Nothing is more
> disturbing than sudden computer crashes or a DJ who doesn?t know how his equipment
> works.

So true. In this sense (and often others too ...) the DJ is often 
under-appreciated. A DJ who manages to make people forget about his 
existence because he (a) has no "technical" problems since he is 
experienced and well-prepared and (b) allows people to immerse 
themselves in the music and the atmosphere to such an extent that they 
no longer are consciously aware of the SOURCE of the music (the DJ) has 
actually been wildly successful.

You reinforce this in your subsequent comment (which I wish more DJs 
would share, especially in their choice of music):

> The most important point last: we play music for people to dance, not to satisfy our own
> egos.


> It is very useful to group the music in tandas. A tanda contains 4-5 pieces of the same
> orchestra, preferably featuring the same singer, of a particular epoch and certainly expressing
> similar moods

I would state this more strongly (than "very useful") since aside from 
limited contexts like practicas, it's pretty much de rigueur these days 
in any community that has reached any meaningful level of maturity to 
play music in tandas at Milongas. And 5 is pretty rare--usually a 
mistake by the DJ I assume when it happens. I stick to four (generally 
even for milongas and valses, though many prefer three there, even in 
Buenos Aires--different discussion), unless the pieces are longer than 
usual and would make the tanda exceed 15 minutes or so.

> late Di Sarli with vocals

Hmm, I've had a prejudice against late Di Sarli with vocals (though I 
love the early Di Sarli with vocals). I should give them another listen. 
Any favourites of yours?

You suggest the following "partitioning" of the evening (warm-up, high 
point, etc). I agree with the concept. I tend to do some things 
differently, and here are my reasons why.

Your first phase:
> Warm-up phase with easily danceable music (Canaro, Cal?, Demare, older Di Sarli
> (sexteto), other older orchestras). Many beginners arrive early and want to make use of the
> empty dance floor. This should be considered in your choice of music.

In general, OK, but I think a tanda or so of your "first high point" 
collection keeps the mood from being too "lackluster" and adding an 
occasional energy burst. D'Arienzo does tend to be popular with 
beginners also, and it's not just beginners who are there at the early 
stages.

Your second phase:
> First high point with rhythmic highlights (D?Arienzo, Biagi, Rodriguez, Orquesta Tipica
> Victor) and evergreens (Fresedo, Di Sarli with Podest? or Rufino).

I tend to reserve most of the "sweeter" music that you call evergreens 
for the end of the milonga (more on that below), but in general I'd agree.

Your third phase:
> Intermittent phase with alternately some easier music (D?Agostino, Donato, De Angelis,
> Tanturi) and maybe 1 or 2 experiments. During this phase and the next the more advanced
> couples will form the bulk of the dancers. They should be challenged by more sophisticated
> music.

Probably this is the most flexible part (and therefore hardest), where 
reading the crowd becomes most important. I tend to make the most 
changes to my preplanned strategy for the milonga at this stage. If you 
want to get people to stay as long as possible even though they may be 
tired (hopefully not bored!), the "crowd manipulation" needs to start at 
least by about this point and continue through to the end of the milonga.

Your fourth phase:
> The absolute high point with Pugliese tangos, late Di Sarli (with vocals, too), rousing valses
> or dramatic Biagi pieces. During the end-phase there should not be any experiments, people

By "high point" I assume you mean dramatic and/or emotional high point 
(vs. the time of peak attendance). I would tend to play the ones you 
mention TOWARDS the end but not the absolute end. My reason is that I 
feel that there needs to be a "relaxation" or winding down time after 
the "dramatic" high point. Certain Canaros, Fresedos, DiSarli/Rufino 
(some of which are dramatic in a different way, especially if you 
understand the words) and of course many others. The specific choice may 
depend on the DJ, but I think it's an important aspect of the ending 
phase of the milonga.

And another phase (admittedly not one that applies to the beginning DJ 
but should be stated for completeness): If the milonga does not have to 
close at its stated ending time, and people clearly want to (and can) 
stay longer, rules become largely irrelevant. One might call this the 
"End-Game Phase": get the people who are left to stay as long as they 
can and on the dance floor continuously (because if they stop they may 
realize how exhausted they are!).

> After the milonga officially ends guests like to hear some non-tangos...
> Nothing is worse than: music off, lights on,
> chairs up. A really cold shower after every tango dream. In Buenos Aires this is actually often
> done, but we don?t have to imitate every bad habit, do we?

I call this "music to change your shoes by." :-) Actually in most 
milongas in Buenos Aires, it's not really quite as jarring as you say, 
because they tend to continue to play Tango music until there are just a 
small number of people left. So really most people are leaving while 
Tango music is still playing, but it would be nice even for the last few 
couples to have at least one song to get used to the idea that the 
milonga has ended.

Thanks again for bringing the article to our attention.

Shahrukh

From russellranno at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 16 02:08:50 2008
From: russellranno at hotmail.com (Russell Ranno)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:08:50 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Slippery Floor
Message-ID: <BAY127-W54F372AD5160FBF62BAE92D16C0@phx.gbl>


Hello,
 
Does anyone have any ideas about how to deal with a floor that is too slippery? The room we practice in recently had a new floor put in. The old one was sticky so we used to put powder down. Now we are ice skating! I realize we could all go buy new suede sole shoes, or use trainers. But we like the leather sole shoes we have so have been stepping on wet towels before dancing but by the end of the tanda we are all over the place again.
 
I realize this is good axis training but we are hoping there may be an easy fix for it, like when we used the powder. What about chaulk or flower or something? We don't have any ballet rosin, and anyway we heard this coats the surface of the shoe and makes it worse in the long run.
 
Thanks,
Russell
 
_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be?learn how to burn a DVD with Windows?.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

From flame at 2xtreme.net  Sun Aug 17 03:42:27 2008
From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 00:42:27 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] 3.  Eduardo Saucedo (Mario)
Message-ID: <48A773F3.22205.3317539@flame.2xtreme.net>

Mario,
Thanks for looking. The really cool thing is that they're improvising. 
Performing without a net! I agree, what's not to like? They have 
TaiChiDancers seal of approval too!



> I liked this couple's milonga a lot! It is creatively innovative...really
> unique yet keeps
>   to the Milonga traditional style..imo.
>   Of course it is a performance dance but looks like it could easily adapt
>   to social dance conditions. The couple uses a really up close connection
>   and the bodies often meld together..much different than the often
>   robot-like 'mantain your own axis' couples.. I like the attention that
>   they give to the look of the feet inneracting.. what's not to like, this
>   is a great dance. It has the Mario seal of approval.


From sarahpie at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 17 13:05:06 2008
From: sarahpie at earthlink.net (sarah)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:05:06 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Tango-L] albuquerque transportation
Message-ID: <12385105.1218992706396.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm arriving at the  albuquerque airport  for the festival at 1 pm friday august 29th and would like to share a ride/taxi  to the hotel if anyone is interested.  Please email me off line at sarahpie at earthlink.net 
thanks, sarah

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 18 17:09:37 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
Message-ID: <797525.19060.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ricardo Vidort y Myriam Pincen
  This is the quintessential Milonguero dance..in all it's pain and all it's glory.
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=mekNwq3AW4E
  Note: the walk is almost always from the outside
  There is a 'hinge' embrace ...so, this must go way back..this guy's been dancing
  from before they dropped the atomic bomb.
   He starts off with an ocho cortado and there's one or two more of them later in the dance.
  There isn't much more than that and some walking...a rock step (misnomer?) or two
  and he backs up on his heels a couple of times and places his foot to be stepped over..
  and what else??? walking always walking..no basic eights..no nothing..just walking
  back and forth...back and forth..round and round...some turns...it's all in the music.
  Where are the tango steps??? well, there they are; backward, forward, side and change of weight.

       

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 18 23:32:24 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
Message-ID: <513432.84511.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mario,

Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on someone else. 
Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a bygone age. Yes, 
let's marvel at their dancing but, when a milonguero dies, his dance dies 
with him and that's the way it has to be. 

What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons, learn good 
technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and, eventually, your 
own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and?no one else's.

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com>
> 
> Ricardo Vidort y Myriam Pincen
>??



      



From tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU  Tue Aug 19 01:16:06 2008
From: tango-L-owner at MIT.EDU (Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:16:06 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] ADMIN: Update on Tango-L archives
Message-ID: <48AA5716.2020306@mit.edu>

Some news on the Tango-L archives (as you recall it went down a couple 
of weeks ago, but came back up a few days later, but the incident raised 
questions as to its long-term viability in its current location).

1. The bad news is that Lucy Lynch, who used to maintain the archives at 
her University of Oregon account, is no longer with the University, and 
while her account will remain active for some time longer, she will have 
less control over it as time goes on, and it cannot be relied upon as a 
permanent repository.

2. The good news is that it is being transferred, and to the Tango-L 
website at that (at www.tango-L.com/archive/Tango-L). Currently the year 
2003 archives are installed for testing (you can check it out there, 
although the search function is not yet implemented locally). Probably 
the rest of them will be installed in about a week, depending on time 
availability.

3. The even better news is that I recently moved the Tango-L website to 
a new Unix-based server (partially for this reason and partially owing 
to poor support from the prior hosting company) and it appears that the 
archive software can be installed to this new server, where it will work 
essentially as it does now on the uoregon site. Stay tuned for more on this!

4. A longer-term project is to include all the old postings from 1995 to 
the archive as well and in the same searchable format--I have these all 
in my personal archives but they need to be converted into a format 
suitable for web presentation and search--and it looks like this should 
be possible as well.

5. Note that since May 2006, a parallel set of archives (different 
software and user interface) are also being maintained by the mailman 
software at mit.edu, so there is some redundancy in the system.

The Tango-A posts will also be archived in a similar way, but that's a 
lower-priority project since Tango-A posts are more transitory in nature 
and of more limited historical value once the event in question has 
passed. However, once I've worked out the system for the Tango-L 
archives, the Tango-A ones should be straightforward.

Shahrukh Merchant
Tango-L and Tango-A administrator
tango-L-owner at mit.edu

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 19 02:12:23 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 06:12:23 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] "hinge embrace"
Message-ID: <BAY105-W12AED5F6DBD1A1BCE32E6797690@phx.gbl>




Mario says "There is a 'hinge' embrace ...so, this must go way back..this guy's been dancingfrom before they dropped the atomic bomb."

Mario this is the embrace used today by most of us, it is the embrace of  "Traditional Tango" .   It has a closed side: The right arm of the man on the back of the woman, and an open side: The left side of the man and the right of the woman.  The right nipple of the man is placed on the chest bone of the woman.

It is also called a "V" embrace : a reference to the position of the two torsos.  The lower part of the V representing the closed side.

Traditional tango has an open embrace and a closed embrace as danced by Vidort. 

Best regards, Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be?learn how to burn a DVD with Windows?.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

From victor.bennetts at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 19 05:26:24 2008
From: victor.bennetts at yahoo.com (victor bennetts)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:26:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Message-ID: <332636.73615.qm@web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi list,
I have not looked at tango-l for months due to a new job keeping me incredibly busy and just glanced at it this morning to see a thread on djing. 
Great synchronicity as I am doing my first djing these days! So a few questions that I have been mulling over:
?
1. Many tandas have a stand out track like a Caf? Dominguez(D'Agostino), El Recodo(Biagi), El Adios(Donato) etc. 
At first I always put these tracks as the last in a tanda, but in dancing to them (and listening to the tandas in the car :-)) 
I decided that is actually a bit too predictable. I observed that actually I get better results when I put the tracks first or at least mix 
the strong tracks so they are first sometimes and last other times. In recent weeks I decided that actually it is best to treat the two adjacent tango tandas 
as related (VTTMTT) and keep a consistent mood across them. So now I have eight tracks to play around with.?I can make the first track of the first tanda and the last track of the last tanda in the pair the stand out tracks. 
Does anyone have any thoughts on this or different approaches?
?
2. Since I have started collecting music for djing I have been listening to a lot of different orchestras. 
Some I really love and just seem to grow in stature each time I listen to them. My favorites right now are Donato, Calo?and OTV. 
Some I just can't bring myself to play at all like Fresedo, Firpo, Piazzolla, Basso, Sassone. Apart from these I also have put together tandas 
from Biagi, Canaro, D'agostino, D'arienzo, Demare, Di Sarli, Laurenz, Lomuto, Pugliese ;-), Rodriguez, Tanturi and Triolo (hereafter 'the usual suspects'). 
Is there anyone else I should be collecting?
?
3. Where do I find good Nuevo (i.e. Neo/Alternative/Electronica)? I apply a simple test to all the music of 'would I like to dance to it' 
and I can't say much Nuevo/Alternative passes that test. I don?t really buy dancing to non tango music generally because even if I really like 
a track, when I go to dance tango to it I?generally find it is either paced wrongly or the beat is?too repetitive so dancing is boring. 
So my Nuevo?tandas consist of?Otros Aires, a couple of the Gotan tracks, and a couple of the Bajofondo Tango Club tracks. 
I also have a tanda of 'To Tango Tis Nefelis', 'Pa'l Que Se Va',?'Milonguero?del Ayer' and 'Toca Tango' that goes down well.
I have trawled various sites and listened to neo tango, but without liking too much. Any suggestions on sources for alternative music or specific tracks?
4. Milonga tandas, should they be three tracks or four? I started out playing four tracks but does not seem to go down so well as three tracks.
?
I am sure these questions have been asked and answered many times before so I will go trawling in due course but welcome any fresh perspective anyone can give me. I have lots of other questions, but these will do for a start.
?
Victor Bennetts 
?
>- Yes: Pugliese was much "hipper" then, as he is now. Today, I would 
>not rank him so high, Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel


      


From tango at tangodesalon.de  Tue Aug 19 06:02:00 2008
From: tango at tangodesalon.de (Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:02:00 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] DJing article
Message-ID: <2715A635-F259-4914-B891-6CAD53122CA9@tangodesalon.de>

Hi all.

I was away for a couple of days, so again, I'm late with my reply.

Thanks for your nice comments on my DJ-article:
I posted a slighly revised version on our site:
http://www.tangodesalon.de/documents/HeroesoftheSilverDisc.pdf


------------------------------------

Concerning the "more modern" Di Sarli Tandas with singers.
There are serveral "playable and danceable" ones, if you don't overdo  
it. One Tanda per Milonga is definetely enough:

Di Sarli con Pomar:
Nido Gaucho
Tormenta
Bailemos
Corazon

Di Sarli con Duran:
No me pregunten por que
A la luz de un candil
Whisky
De que podemos hablar

Di Sarli con Florio:
Adios Corazon	
Cantemos Corazon	
So?emos	
Porque Regresas Tu	

Or, the most "kitsch" ones:
De Que Podemos Hablar con Argentino Ledesma	
Fumando Espero con Argentino Ledesma	
Duerme Mi Amor con Horacio Casares	
Hasta Siempre Amor con Horacio Casares	
Ok, they are really tough, but so romantic. ;-))

------------------------------------


Have a good day,


Melina








From andreas at tangokombinat.de  Tue Aug 19 09:11:45 2008
From: andreas at tangokombinat.de (Andreas Wichter)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:11:45 +0100
Subject: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Message-ID: <bdf76ce88ddbf977f83bc1a7bb76c0cd@tangokombinat.de>

Hello Victor,

you wrote:

 >>
1. Many tandas have a stand out track ...
At first I always put these tracks as the last in a tanda, ...
I decided that is actually a bit too predictable. I observed that 
actually I get better results when I put the tracks first or at least 
mix
the strong tracks so they are first sometimes and last other times.
<<

A tanda needs a good choreography. I figure there can be wildly 
different approaches to building good tandas. Sometimes when I build a 
tanda I build it around one particular song, other times around a 
specific singer (still one and the same orchestra - I don?t mix them), 
or I build one specifically to fit in well with the previous one, or 
pave the way for the next. After all, even if people don?t dance a 
tanda, they still hear it, and it will affect their mood.
Mostly I will use a well-known or at least very powerful and danceable 
track first, so people want to get up and dance, and they have a sense 
they know what they?re getting themselves into. Once that is achieved, 
I can play with the energy, based on that first track. It will lead to 
the second major track, which is the last one. Whether the first or the 
last one are the "stand out track" can vary, and often it will be 
different for different listeners/dancers. The point is that each track 
in a tanda has a specific function, a job to do. The final one must 
wrap up the experience of that specific tanda.

 >>
In recent weeks I decided that actually it is best to treat the two 
adjacent tango tandas
as related (VTTMTT) and keep a consistent mood across them. So now I 
have eight tracks to play around with.
<<

All tandas are related, and adjacent ones especially, by the overall 
choreography you?re going for. I still treat each tanda as a mostly 
closed entity - it has to work for the dancer who dances this one 
tanda, then sits down again, not dancing the next one. If you manage 
both this as well as there being some nice interplay between tandas - 
perfect. Just don?t try to be too clever, you?ll just be disappointed 
if nobody "gets the joke", and maybe it will even be annoying for 
people.

 >>
Some I just can't bring myself to play at all like Fresedo, Firpo, 
Piazzolla, Basso, Sassone.
<<

No argument from me except that I sometimes play a tanda of Firpo (very 
rarely, and usually milonga), and that I can see how one might get 
bored with Fresedo/Ray after a while. I rediscovered Fresedo at some 
point, and found some extremely pretty things under that particular 
rock. Give the man another chance. Maybe try Tigre Viejo, Mariposita, 
Derecho Viejo, Pimienta.

 >>
  So my Nuevo?tandas consist of?Otros Aires, a couple of the Gotan 
tracks, and a couple of the Bajofondo Tango Club tracks.
<<

I couldn?t get myself interested enough to explore Bajofondo yet, but I 
am guilty of having played Gotan (though not for some time now) and 
Otros Aires - their milongas, which are real milongas after a fashion.

 >>
4. Milonga tandas, should they be three tracks or four? I started out 
playing four tracks but does not seem to go down so well as three 
tracks.
<<

I prefer three. I find four a bit much, but I know good DJs who play 
four, and I can live with it. I also play vals tandas of three only, 
btw.

Have fun with your DJing,
Andreas

From gltango at verizon.net  Tue Aug 19 09:46:38 2008
From: gltango at verizon.net (gltango)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:46:38 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Oahu Hawaii
Message-ID: <48AACEBE.3080906@verizon.net>

Hi,

I will be traveling to Oahu tomorrow for 10 days and would like to know 
if there are any milongas there.  If anyone has info please send.

thanks

Greg


From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Aug 19 09:51:43 2008
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:51:43 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Message-ID: <48AACFEF.2040208@shahrukhmerchant.com>

victor bennetts <victor.bennetts at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 1. Many tandas have a stand out track like a Caf? Dominguez(D'Agostino), El Recodo(Biagi), El Adios(Donato) etc. 
> At first I always put these tracks as the last in a tanda, but in dancing to them (and listening to the tandas in the car :-)) 

The ABBA approach (not the Swedish group ...) is used by many DJ's. The 
"A" tracks are the ones you called standout--recognizable popular ones. 
The "B" (not necessarily B-grade at all since there is so much A-grade 
material to choose from) tracks are where you can play others by the 
same orchestra and mood, but lesser known ones, perhaps, or not as 
"defining." For sure you can play with this rule, but you can't go wrong 
sticking with it. The reason for also having it at the end is basically 
"to keep them wanting more."

> Some I just can't bring myself to play at all like Fresedo, Firpo, Piazzolla, Basso, Sassone. Apart from these I also have put together tandas 
> from Biagi, Canaro, D'agostino, D'arienzo, Demare, Di Sarli, Laurenz, Lomuto, Pugliese ;-), Rodriguez, Tanturi and Triolo (hereafter 'the usual suspects'). 
> Is there anyone else I should be collecting?

Can't disagree with you on Firpo, Piazzolla, Basso (though there is one 
"La Cumparsita" of his that I sometimes use at the end) and Sassone 
(Tango elevator music). Fresedo is very much in the canon of 
"standards," however (make sure you are listening to 1940s Fresedo): 
instrumentals, as well as vocals with Roberto Ray and Ricardo Ruiz.

Additional ones ... off the top of my head, De Angelis (valses with 
Dante & Martel are classics) and newer instrumentals (Pavadita, etc., 
though I'm somewhat tired of them).

> 3. Where do I find good Nuevo (i.e. Neo/Alternative/Electronica)? I apply a simple test to all the music of 'would I like to dance to it' 
> and I can't say much Nuevo/Alternative passes that test.

No it doesn't. :-)

> So my Nuevo?tandas consist of?Otros Aires, a couple of the Gotan tracks, and a couple of the Bajofondo Tango Club tracks. 
> I also have a tanda of 'To Tango Tis Nefelis', 'Pa'l Que Se Va',?'Milonguero?del Ayer' and 'Toca Tango' that goes down well.

That's pretty much along the lines of what I end up with (some of 
exactly the same tracks as above, in fact). The trap to avoid is the so 
called "alternative tanda" which is music that is not even remotely 
Tango, that seems to be an unfortunate trend (not yet in Buenos Aires, 
fortunately) these days. In the hands of a really experienced DJ who has 
established himself with the classics, a tanda or so MAY work since it 
would have been more carefully selected. Generally, though, the only 
person who thinks its great to dance to is the DJ (because it was some 
favourite pop song from his childhood, for example)--spoils the mood 
more often than not.

> 4. Milonga tandas, should they be three tracks or four? I started out playing four tracks but does not seem to go down so well as three tracks.

Well, I do four almost always, but I have to admit that the trend these 
days seems to be to do 3. Even in Buenos Aires (where I always remember 
Milonga and Vals tandas being four several years ago), many places are 
playing 3.

My reasons are: Well, I like milongas and valses so even though I'm not 
dancing if I'm DJing, I admit to "projecting" a bit. :-) Most Milongas 
and Valses are on the short side, anyway. In a Buenos Aires Milonga, I 
would always play 4 since many people are starting into the 2nd and even 
3rd piece of the Milonga, and then it's just way too short. Outside of 
Buenos Aires, where people are starting on the first song usually, and 
in many communities Milonga and Vals may not be as well known or taught, 
there's certainly a case for 3.

You say you're just starting out with DJing--I think you've got all the 
right instincts. Good luck!

Shahrukh

From patangos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 19 11:18:48 2008
From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
In-Reply-To: <332636.73615.qm@web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <436660.74220.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi Victor,

I agree with Andreas' comments.  If you're just starting out, I'd suggest sticking with the formula of sandwiching two weaker pieces between the two strongest pieces.  Also, watch that the tempo goes consistently from slower to faster or faster to slower.  The latter is done in the context of lowering the energy over several tandas to give the dancer an intense, heart-wrenching moment for them.  The kind that makes them want to die in the arms of their favorite partner.

One of the things you may want to think about is that as you're playing, you're training the dancers ears as to what good music is.  So the more you play the usual suspects, the better.

Tandas for alternative music can be a little tricker and I often adjust on the fly according to what's happening.  I prefer to use either playful music (like Somewhere over the Rainbow by Israel Kamakawiwo'ole or those Beatles-esque tunes) or ballads.   Our weekly milonga takes place where there's a dance floor with adjoining bar area.  If the bar crowd is loud, I can't do the ballads.

To give you an example of what to think about using energy, something like Andrea Bocelli's Corte Partiro is a piece I always play last (#4).  It's also a piece whose ending is so powerful, that I'll bring it out as a special treat, especially when the Italians are out. It's a piece where my goal is to have everyone out on the floor and everyone in the room absolutely quiet.  Preceeding that (as #3) might be Piazzolla's Tanta Anni Prima, which doesn't have a strong beginning but finishes very intensely and prepares people for Corte Partiro.  By itself, Corte Partiro can be difficult.  Set it up right, and the entire room, including non-dancers, is intently concentrating on Bocelli's voice and there's this collective suspension and sigh.

So what do I do for #1 and #2?  That depends on what's happening.  If I think the crowd needs help transitioning to something slower paced, I'll play "Breath (2am)" by Anna Nalick as #1 and then "Tango to Evora (Nefeli's Tango)" by Haris Alexiou, which is a local favorite, as #2.  If the crowd is already prepped, I'll have #1 as Tango to Evora and #2 as "Arms of the Angel".  Since the weekly milonga is mostly attended by beginners and intermediates who are not particularly musically savvy, I find the alternative pieces like these to be very effective in signalling them to find the partner they came with.

If by the end of #2, it doesn't look as if I can get what I want for #4, I'll abandon ship and go toward something lighter.  I might end up including "Fly me to the Moon" by Frank Sinatra as #4.

This is what works here.  Hope it helps in your tanda-building process.

Trini de Pittsburgh



 


      

From shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com  Tue Aug 19 13:37:29 2008
From: shahrukh at shahrukhmerchant.com (Shahrukh Merchant)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:37:29 -0300
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina's essay, "rudeness in Tango," Tango-L postings
Message-ID: <48AB04D9.5010205@shahrukhmerchant.com>

Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango at tangodesalon.de> said:
> ... I was quite surprised by  
> the personal attacks and complaints to my DJing article, ...

"Pat Petronio" <petronio at adam.com.au> said:
> It has been very interesting to observe the reactions to Melina's essay on DJing.  

Unfortunately, it became a "tradition" of sorts for flames and put-downs 
to start appearing on Tango-L a few years ago. Seemed harmless at first 
since they were usually accompanied by something useful. More on this in 
a bit, but it was interesting that I happened to see a thread on 
"Rudeness in Tango" from back in 2003. (As I mentioned in a previous 
post, I was working on the archives and decided to start with 2003, and 
since this thread was in early January of the year, it happened to catch 
my eye.)

The phenomenon being addressed in this 2003 thread was more on the dance 
floor than on the list, but the parallels were interesting anyway. Here 
are some excerpts--you can see the whole thread starting at 
http://www.tango-l.com/archives/Tango-L/msg00120.html (and help me debug 
the 2003 digest in the process :-) remembering that the search box on 
the top is not implemented yet).

luda_r1 <luda_r1 @YAHOO.COM>:
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango and rudeness
> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:57:28 -0800

> I have been told by some of my friends, and have
> experienced it first hand, that tango seems to attract
> some of the rudest people in the world. I have NEVER
> run into such rude behavior in any other social
> situation. Why is it that the tango scene tolerates
> it?

Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> in a related thread:
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango and friendliness
> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:26:59 -0600

> In traveling and dancing tango, Susan and I have been given very warm
> welcomes by the tango communities in most cities we have visited.  We have
> found tango dancers worldwide to be enthusiastic about meeting and
> greeting tango dancers that happen to be traveling.  We have been hugged
> with friendliness by strangers, picked up at our hotel and driven to tango
> parties, taken to dinner, and been invited to stay in the homes of tango
> dancers.  I cannot think of greater friendliness.  (I like to think that
> we are similarly friendly in Texas.)
> 
> Yes, we have also encountered occasional rudeness at milongas in our own
> city and in others, but when one compares the little rudeness we have
> encountered with the genuine open hearts and friendliness of the people we
> have met through tango, it seems as though the glass is well more than
> half full.

I'd like to believe the latter view as well, and the optimist in me will 
in fact do so. There's no question that things have changed in the 5 
years since these posts were written. As Tango has grown, and as the 
communities have become larger with more of them (which is a good 
thing), some "global community intimacy" has died naturally along with 
it. Everyone in Tango no longer knows (almost) everyone else in Tango, 
but it is still true that other than in a handful of large Tango cities, 
a Tango dance traveller will still be recognized (and usually welcomed) 
as a stranger. This cannot be said of salsa and swing communities (which 
yes, may be friendlier in some senses as claimed in other posts in the 
aforementioned thread, but lack that global community sense).

Returning to the subject of Tango-L, the unchecked rudeness on Tango-L 
basically led to a phenomenon where many of the civil majority either 
stopped posting (many unsubscribed during the peak of this phenomenon), 
because naturally they didn't like being attacked personally, or watered 
down their postings to the point that there was nothing that could be 
disagreed with, which of course made the posts less interesting.

This left the rude people dishing out and exchanging insults, and good 
posts by the thicker-skinned people, who were willing to put up with 
them (or able to ignore them). But this unfortunately still deprived the 
list members of good commentary by those who were turned off by the 
flames or reluctant to post because of them. Even "newbie" questions by 
beginning dancers (which may have been asked and answered a dozen times 
before) often leads to good followups and discussion that was catalyzed 
by a seemingly innocuous or even mundane question, and newcomers should 
be the ones who are made to feel the most welcomed, and not driven away 
by intimidation or rudeness.

So several months ago, I started enforcing the "no flames" rules. Most 
of the small handful of those responsible adjusted willingly (mostly 
they just wanted to be able to "respond in kind" and if there was no 
flame to respond to in like vein, they were able to stay on topic). A 
few (an insignificant percentage of the list membership) did not and may 
choose not to contribute to the list any more if they cannot do so on 
their terms, but the damage they were doing outweighed their occasional 
contributions.

So while I cannot promise that the list is 100% "flame"-safe, I would 
encourage those who have been reluctant to post in the past for this 
reason to go ahead and do so now if you wish, as such disruptive 
behaviour IS being acted upon more actively now. Certainly, you should 
not expect that your opinions will not be disagreed with--they almost 
certainly WILL be by someone (and SHOULD be, as that's what usually 
leads to interesting discourse), but you should expect this disagreement 
to be on your *opinion* and not spill over into "ad hominem" attacks on 
you (or your intelligence or personality or dance ability or whatever).

I'll end with another "2003 quote" from Luda (who was quoted earlier):

> If tango is supposed to be a metaphor for life, as
> some people believe, then it would explain some of
> this weird behavior. Maybe. If you're a nice person in
> real life, it will show up in tango. And if you're an
> SOB in real life, that will show up in tango, too.

Tangazos,

Shahrukh

From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Aug 19 14:19:19 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:19:19 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina's essay, "rudeness in Tango, " Tango-L	postings
In-Reply-To: <48AB04D9.5010205@shahrukhmerchant.com>
References: <48AB04D9.5010205@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Message-ID: <20080819121919.viupqq02e8kco88g@webmail.earthnet.net>

Shahrukh,

You are being very kind, just as you have been over so many years.   
You have witnessed tremendous (and fun!) flame wars, oh, like 11 years  
ago or so :)  And you have always been very gracious, taking care of  
things and the list.  So a million thanks for that!

In Argentina and all over the world, tango attracts hypersensitive  
people.  The social aspects of tango often provoke people in ways they  
don't expect.  Many become quite reactive, consciously or not.

Personally, I do not mind "flames".  I like fire.  It wipes out the  
old and makes new possible.  I like it when people are passionate  
enough and fearless enough to send me flames, because I might bring on  
them the flames of a dragon and they know it.  I respect that.  But  
then... maybe kindness from me is better.

I think that people become rude and reactive when they are triggered.   
Maybe they are very passionate about something.  What I do resent is  
strong feelings hidden behind a thin veil of politeness or "niceness".  
  I prefer direct agression over passive agression.  And so I conduct  
all flame wars, if ever, publically without keeping anything  
confidential.  I must say, I have not been involved in any really good  
flame war since some members left the list.  I kinda miss them.:)

People who have had thick enough skin to survive in tango have learned  
that they do matter, and how they treat others matters.

Anger (and, thus, "flames") usually means hurt feelings.  People are  
very sensitive in tango and about it.  When we had those old wars,  
people actually were passionate about tango.  They fought over it!   
They stood their ground, insulted each other, offended everyone around  
them, and then became the best of friends, while everyone who watched  
thought "Go figure!".

I am not advocating for the flame wars, but the early ones were fun.   
The later ones, the ones you are referring to, became nasty and not  
fun because there seemed to not be much substance.

In your post, Shahrukh, there is a lot of thought.  I know that this  
will keep reappearing because new people join the list.  And as the  
guardian of the list, you probably will see it all over again many  
times.

Warmest regards,

Nina



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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Aug 19 19:44:30 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:44:30 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  What does it take?
Message-ID: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com>

Jack Dylan wrote:

> Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on  
> someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a  
> bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a  
> milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has  
> to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,  
> learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,  
> eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no  
> one else's. Jack

....

It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.

In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve  
seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them  
yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,  
personality, and dance circumstances.

I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own  
style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but  
that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.

It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.  
And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.

Joe



From nina at earthnet.net  Tue Aug 19 20:47:42 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:47:42 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
In-Reply-To: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com>
References: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080819184101.01bd9bc0@earthnet.net>

And, gentlemen...

Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular, 
or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or 
anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do 
that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't 
(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a 
head or a heart.  I need both.

Best,

Greedy Nina


At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Jack Dylan wrote:
>
> > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > one else's. Jack
>
>....
>
>It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
>
>In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
>seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
>yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
>personality, and dance circumstances.
>
>I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
>style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
>that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
>
>It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
>And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
>
>Joe
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From larrynla at juno.com  Tue Aug 19 21:42:03 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:42:03 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Ricardo Vidort y Myriam Pincen - not just walking
Message-ID: <20080819.184203.1670.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com>

I don't think Ricardo Vidort & Myriam Pincen were just walking & little
more than that. If you look closely they were doing some pretty fancy
stuff. It just wasn't as obvious as what show tango dancers do - who
must dance so that people in the far balconies can enjoy their dancing.
Incidentally, at about a minute Vidort leads a volcada!

As for imitating others, everyone has to start somewhere. Imitation is
fine as long as you remember this. Imitating fine dancers is a good
place to start and a bad place to end up. 

Larry de Los Angeles



____________________________________________________________
Click for online loan, fast & no lender fee, approval today
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From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Tue Aug 19 22:35:44 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:35:44 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  What does it take?
Message-ID: <482BDDE5-2F3E-4C94-B25A-4263A7477F48@gmail.com>

> And, gentlemen... Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can  
> - on your cellular, or maybe molecular level. And if you need to  
> have your heart (or anything else) broken for music to enter, then  
> find a way to do that. It is well worth it. I can't speak for all  
> women, but I can't (well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man  
> who only has either a head or a heart.  I need both.

Damn.

Perhaps the best post ever.

"that is all / Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know"

From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com  Wed Aug 20 02:08:43 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:08:43 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080819184101.01bd9bc0@earthnet.net>
References: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080819184101.01bd9bc0@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <009c01c9028b$346c6b00$4100a8c0@labyrinth>

Nina;
This is beautiful and honest.
I owe you a tanda,,, because.

David

PS: The same goes for me dancing with a woman.
It is what they offer and share, also how they offer and share in the dance.



-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Nina Pesochinsky
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:48 PM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?

And, gentlemen...

Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular, 
or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or 
anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do 
that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't 
(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a 
head or a heart.  I need both.

Best,

Greedy Nina


At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
>Jack Dylan wrote:
>
> > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > one else's. Jack
>
>....
>
>It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
>
>In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
>seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
>yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
>personality, and dance circumstances.
>
>I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
>style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
>that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
>
>It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
>And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
>
>Joe
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
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6:04 AM
 

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From nina at earthnet.net  Wed Aug 20 02:23:20 2008
From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:23:20 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
In-Reply-To: <009c01c9028b$346c6b00$4100a8c0@labyrinth>
References: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080819184101.01bd9bc0@earthnet.net>
	<009c01c9028b$346c6b00$4100a8c0@labyrinth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080820001843.01ba8010@earthnet.net>

Thank you, David.

But...  I only said what I want.  I said nothing about sharing 
anything :)  I offer nothing, share nothing, promise nothing.  It 
could be a dark place of no return... an abyss  of tango...

Many have perished from wrong assumptions.

Be careful.

Nina


At 12:08 AM 8/20/2008, David Hodgson wrote:
>Nina;
>This is beautiful and honest.
>I owe you a tanda,,, because.
>
>David
>
>PS: The same goes for me dancing with a woman.
>It is what they offer and share, also how they offer and share in the dance.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:48 PM
>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?
>
>And, gentlemen...
>
>Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular,
>or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or
>anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do
>that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't
>(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a
>head or a heart.  I need both.
>
>Best,
>
>Greedy Nina
>
>
>At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
> >Jack Dylan wrote:
> >
> > > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > > one else's. Jack
> >
> >....
> >
> >It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
> >
> >In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
> >seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
> >yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
> >personality, and dance circumstances.
> >
> >I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
> >style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
> >that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
> >
> >It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
> >And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Tango-L mailing list
> >Tango-L at mit.edu
> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
>6:04 AM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
>6:04 AM
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com  Wed Aug 20 02:39:55 2008
From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:39:55 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] What does it take?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080820001843.01ba8010@earthnet.net>
References: <F2E38481-DBD0-4996-A2F8-C51ADB790A6A@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.1.20080819184101.01bd9bc0@earthnet.net><009c01c9028b$346c6b00$4100a8c0@labyrinth>
	<7.0.1.0.1.20080820001843.01ba8010@earthnet.net>
Message-ID: <00a301c9028f$90688e80$4100a8c0@labyrinth>

Nina;
Offering and sharing are words and symbols. Mostly semantics.

The question is not how far the rabbit hole goes. The question is how far
does one think or assume it goes.
Then again we each get to choose where we dance, do we not.

David~

-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Nina Pesochinsky
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:23 AM
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?

Thank you, David.

But...  I only said what I want.  I said nothing about sharing 
anything :)  I offer nothing, share nothing, promise nothing.  It 
could be a dark place of no return... an abyss  of tango...

Many have perished from wrong assumptions.

Be careful.

Nina


At 12:08 AM 8/20/2008, David Hodgson wrote:
>Nina;
>This is beautiful and honest.
>I owe you a tanda,,, because.
>
>David
>
>PS: The same goes for me dancing with a woman.
>It is what they offer and share, also how they offer and share in the
dance.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:48 PM
>To: tango-l at mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?
>
>And, gentlemen...
>
>Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular,
>or maybe molecular level.  And if you need to have your heart (or
>anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do
>that.  It is well worth it.  I can't speak for all women, but I can't
>(well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a
>head or a heart.  I need both.
>
>Best,
>
>Greedy Nina
>
>
>At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote:
> >Jack Dylan wrote:
> >
> > > Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on
> > > someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a
> > > bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a
> > > milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has
> > > to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons,
> > > learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and,
> > > eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no
> > > one else's. Jack
> >
> >....
> >
> >It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance.
> >
> >In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve
> >seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them
> >yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities,
> >personality, and dance circumstances.
> >
> >I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own
> >style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but
> >that's only if imitation is where you stop your development.
> >
> >It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer.
> >And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Tango-L mailing list
> >Tango-L at mit.edu
> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
>6:04 AM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
>6:04 AM
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
6:04 AM
 

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Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008
6:04 AM
 


From rhink2 at netscape.net  Wed Aug 20 13:25:51 2008
From: rhink2 at netscape.net (rhink2@netscape.net)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:25:51 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Melina's essay, "rudeness in Tango, " Tango-L postings
Message-ID: <8CAD100ED43AA34-1234-1A55@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com>



Hello Subscribers,



Actually, this topic predates 2003.  I started a thread on tango 
etiquette in 2000 (http://www.cyber-tango.com/art/etiquette.html); I'm 
sure that earlier discussion is preceded by others, but I couldn't find 
any in the archives.



I will resurrect only 2 points, one personal and one pragmatic. I 
confess I do take it personally when someone mistreats another at a 
milonga. That bad behavior reflects on all of us through guilt by 
association. The offended party not doubt will relate the incident to 
friends probably giving the impression that all A. tango dancers are 
jerks.  Since I did nothing wrong, I'm offended as well.



The pragmatic point is that if we are to enjoy bigger, better, and more 
frequent tango events, we must grow the community. Clearly, rude 
behavior is counter-productive in that regard.



Bob


From victor.bennetts at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 24 21:22:31 2008
From: victor.bennetts at yahoo.com (victor bennetts)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Message-ID: <979381.49933.qm@web35007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you to those?who responded to my post of DJ questions. All interesting and thoughtful replies that will take me?time to digest.?Particularly thanks for the Nuevo suggestions and?for the pointers on?Fresedo. So much music to listen to and so little time!
?Victor Bennetts


      


From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 18:48:21 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Some great dancing
Message-ID: <680096.11323.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

to non-traditional music by the legendary Graciela Gonzalez with Marcelo Varela.  Note her impeccable embellishments and how they have squeezed out every bit of musicality in the piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4-8lfwYqTQ



      

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 26 11:25:45 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:25:45 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-1?q?Mundial_porte=F1o_de_Tango_2008?=
Message-ID: <BAY105-W5590CF64CC0B86D5120E1197660@phx.gbl>



There is a short video in Clarin newspaper today (clarin.com), in reference to the competition "Mundial Porte?o de tango".

Graciela Gonzalez explains that the Style "Villa Urquiza" is the craze of this years competition. She further explains that in the old times every neighborhood in Buenos Aires had a distinctive tango style.  Villa Urquiza has become very popular. She also mentions the South style  and Avellaneda.

She describes the "Villa Urquiza" style as characterized by long steps, pauses, a close embrace that changes to open as needed, and the execution of many lapices (drawings), enrosques, agujas (needles), etc.

A recent article in the same newspaper says : The tango festivity is a magnet that brings tourists and mobilizes millions of dollars. 

According to the government of the city,  about 45000 foreign visitors who spent 40 million dollars already arrived to the city.

The activities cause great furor with tickets sold out.   Out of the 406 couples that compete, 90 are from abroad.

The competition is in two different styles: Salon and Stage. The first price for each category is of $ 12,500.

Graciela Gonzalez, one of the judges of the competition explains that in Salon style, there should be absolute respect for the character of this genre, staying on the floor, and danced with great elegance. The embrace and the connection of the couple are essential.  

In stage style jumps, tricks are permitted and the choreography must have a story.

Best regards, Sergio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTQ6pBYRsk


La fiesta del tango, un im?n que atrae turistas y mueve millones 
Seg?n el Gobierno porte?o, ya llegaron unos 45 mil extranjeros que dejaron US$ 40 millones. Y las propuestas, como en 2007, causaron furor y se agotaron las entradas. En el Mundial, de las 406 parejas que compiten, 90 son de otros pa?ses. 

Se competir? en dos categor?as, baile de Sal?n y de Escenario. En ambas, el premio es de $ 12.500. Graciela Gonz?lez, del jurado, diferencia: "En sal?n, evaluamos que se respete la esencia del g?nero, un tango a tierra y con mucha elegancia. El abrazo y la conexi?n de la pareja es fundamental. En baile de escenario s? se permiten los saltos y los trucos, en coreograf?as que deben contar una historia".


_________________________________________________________________
Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows?.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/

From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 26 11:32:41 2008
From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Zamba - Argentine folk Dance
Message-ID: <272009.62043.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Not exactly tango, but it is a part of the Argentine culture not usually available to us. On the YouTube video it follows a brief running of social dancing and a clip of Chacarera - a folk dance almost always played during milongas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VOpdXqq-eY

Claudio is headed to Colorado to teach folk dance for those who might be interested.  Monica runs the popular Tuesday night milonga in Coconut Grove in Miami at the Ritz-Carleton.

Nancy





      

From sopelote at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 26 15:59:14 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull
Message-ID: <536928.70033.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

After a short burst of high creativity, it looks like Tango-L has fallen back into dullsville.
  OK..here's something to perk up the napes of the Tango-L sharpshooters.
  I'm working on a thesis that Tango classes may be where the real Tango has gone to.
  Chris U.K. not withstanding, there is a lot to recommend spending a weekend in workshops
  and classes rather than Milongas. Shall I ennumerate?...(is that like master....?)
  first of all; one gets to dance in classes and maybe not get to dance in Milongas.
  second: one gets to dance with lots of different partners. 'teachers' know to 'change partners'
  every mini-move and therein is the real allure of the class..to dance with that person that we
  would be afraid to ask otherwise.
  third: You only have to 'put up' with a dance partner for a couple of minutes...it's a lot lighter
  than going thru the commitment of a 4 dance tanda..and who could even make that decision
  to Tanda to begin with? Some of us are just not ready for the drama.
  fourth: There is intellectual stimulation as well as physical in a class..the teachers are there
  to involve and entertain you....
  I'm running out of acceptable post size here and so I will leave the rest up to you..it's easy to ennumerate many advantages to spending a night in a class rather than a Milonga..
  and since Tango means $$$$ perhaps the class will be THE venue of the future.
  Heck, if we serve cheese and wine and have breaks, etc. etc. ..the class could be THE new Tango!

       

From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 26 16:16:03 2008
From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:16:03 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull
In-Reply-To: <536928.70033.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <536928.70033.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY144-W20A0BC269B076D19ED8EC399660@phx.gbl>

i hate to +1 this post.
 
but i think that a practi-longa is "hella fun" and my first choice of dance venues. sort of the learning opportunity and informality of a practica with a dj'd (very responsive to the crowd) tanda format. everyone learns from everyone, and the world continues to rotate if there are breaches of formality, etiquette, music, etc. critical that the music is responsive to the crowd, if no ones dancing, MOVE ON
 
this is not for the still uncomfortable on their own beginners, but once they are willing to dance on their own. PRACI-LONGA's are IT.The TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
_________________________________________________________________
See what people are saying about Windows Live.  Check out featured posts.
http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 26 16:20:23 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:20:23 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull
In-Reply-To: <536928.70033.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <536928.70033.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48B46587.4050804@yahoo.com>

yes but Mario, in class, under the curcumstances you describe,  it's 
really difficult to get into the tangozone...which is after all, why 
most of us dance!

Mario wrote:

After a short burst of high creativity, it looks like Tango-L has fallen back into dullsville.
  OK..here's something to perk up the napes of the Tango-L sharpshooters.
  I'm working on a thesis that Tango classes may be where the real Tango has gone to.



Mario wrote:

>After a short burst of high creativity, it looks like Tango-L has fallen back into dullsville.
>  OK..here's something to perk up the napes of the Tango-L sharpshooters.
>  I'm working on a thesis that Tango classes may be where the real Tango has gone to.
>  Chris U.K. not withstanding, there is a lot to recommend spending a weekend in workshops
>  and classes rather than Milongas. Shall I ennumerate?...(is that like master....?)
>  first of all; one gets to dance in classes and maybe not get to dance in Milongas.
>  second: one gets to dance with lots of different partners. 'teachers' know to 'change partners'
>  every mini-move and therein is the real allure of the class..to dance with that person that we
>  would be afraid to ask otherwise.
>  third: You only have to 'put up' with a dance partner for a couple of minutes...it's a lot lighter
>  than going thru the commitment of a 4 dance tanda..and who could even make that decision
>  to Tanda to begin with? Some of us are just not ready for the drama.
>  fourth: There is intellectual stimulation as well as physical in a class..the teachers are there
>  to involve and entertain you....
>  I'm running out of acceptable post size here and so I will leave the rest up to you..it's easy to ennumerate many advantages to spending a night in a class rather than a Milonga..
>  and since Tango means $$$$ perhaps the class will be THE venue of the future.
>  Heck, if we serve cheese and wine and have breaks, etc. etc. ..the class could be THE new Tango!
>
>       
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 26 23:07:50 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
Message-ID: <694449.47100.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Ilene,

That's OK for you ladies but, as a man, I'm way too busy taking care 
of my partner and navigating the crowded?floor, not to mention trying 
to be seductive and creative, to even think about the 'tangozone' for
myself.

I'd like to ask the other guys out there, is it even possible for the man 
to enter the tangozone or is it only for our partners who can relax, close 
their eyes and think about nothing but the music and the dance? 

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia at yahoo.com>
> 
> yes but Mario, in class, under the curcumstances you describe,? it's 
> really difficult to get into the tangozone...which is after all, why 
> most of us dance!
> 


      



From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 11:02:32 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:02:32 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
In-Reply-To: <694449.47100.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <694449.47100.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48B56C88.9080802@yahoo.com>

Jack...
I often lead  ( and I love to...)  so I understand the challenges.
But I have danced with leaders who have definitely been 'there' on the 
dance floor...so, no, I don't think it's that much different for leaders.
That's why we all keep practicing, isn't it?  ...to reach those moments, 
whether you are a leader or follower.
 (I am not addressing those who dance just for the social 'night out' 
aspect of it).
I.

Jack Dylan wrote:

>Ilene,
>
>That's OK for you ladies but, as a man, I'm way too busy taking care 
>of my partner and navigating the crowded floor, not to mention trying 
>to be seductive and creative, to even think about the 'tangozone' for
>myself.
>
>I'd like to ask the other guys out there, is it even possible for the man 
>to enter the tangozone or is it only for our partners who can relax, close 
>their eyes and think about nothing but the music and the dance? 
>
>Jack
>
>
>
>  
>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>      
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 11:47:45 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
Message-ID: <986991.88186.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I suppose one needs to "(re)define" this thing referred to here as "tangozone." I bet it means different things to different people. 

I can tell you that I too have been there, but I am usually far from being "relaxed, etc ..." As a matter of fact there usually is (1) no thinking involved, (2) plenty of creative tension, (3) excitement, and most of all (4) heightened sensitivity to everybody and everything around me.

So, "tangozone" for me really means being one with everything around and inside of me and all the senses being on the high end of the scale. 

I do not expect to hear anyone else's definition to coincide with mine. The art of tango dancing for me includes discovery of what that "tangozone" means for my partner and trying to collaborate. Many times it just does not work since we may seek vastly different and perhaps incompatible things to put us in the "tangozone." However, it may be possible that in such cases things other than the "tangozone" can be pursued and come out of the dance very satisfied.

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

From alex at tangofuego.us  Wed Aug 27 12:52:50 2008
From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:52:50 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
Message-ID: <20080827170003.B00F8AB8708@mit.edu>

I believe that Dan Boccia [TangoTrance.com] up in Alaska has the best
definite of this "state" most of us strive for...

"The state of being so completely immersed in the music and profoundly
connected with your partner that movement flows from within the partnership
uninhibited by conscious thought."


From thorn-inside at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 27 16:07:18 2008
From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:07:18 -0600
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone
Message-ID: <BLU119-W787DB9F1F77917566A37F91610@phx.gbl>


Alex quoted:
>>"The state of being so completely immersed in the music and profoundly 
>> connected with your partner that movement flows from within the partnership 
>> uninhibited by conscious thought."

Subject of course to the constraint that one must constantly monitor the floor for navigational purposes, and often respond in a conscious, thoughtful manner.

So what has this got to do with tango??  Just sounds like partner dance to me.  Every swing dancer, every 
two-stepper, every salsa-freak probably has the same goal.  And it is easier to achieve in a spot dance where the 
navigational concerns are fewer.

David
_________________________________________________________________
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From sopelote at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 16:20:18 2008
From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tangozone
Message-ID: <21074.75353.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree..there's no such thing as a 'tango-zone'
  just an 'elitist-zone' or a 'one-ups-manship' zone or a 'give-me-something-to-talk-about' zone.
  But then again, when I'm in the arms of...or she is in my arms...wow, it's better than sex.

       

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 16:55:56 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:55:56 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone
In-Reply-To: <21074.75353.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <21074.75353.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48B5BF5C.8020205@yahoo.com>

that's the tango zone.

Mario wrote:

>Yeah, I'm inclined to agree..there's no such thing as a 'tango-zone'
>  just an 'elitist-zone' or a 'one-ups-manship' zone or a 'give-me-something-to-talk-about' zone.
>*  But then again, when I'm in the arms of...or she is in my arms...wow, it's better than sex.*
>
>       
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From tangobliss at gmail.com  Wed Aug 27 18:01:34 2008
From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:01:34 -0700
Subject: [Tango-L] Very Interesting Video
Message-ID: <0F0179D5-C6F6-495E-B08B-589BF8DBC5E7@gmail.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-MpnYgQac

From tangoartist at gmail.com  Wed Aug 27 19:46:21 2008
From: tangoartist at gmail.com (Kathryn Johns)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:46:21 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone
In-Reply-To: <21074.75353.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <21074.75353.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <370d16c10808271646s48124fc8hde62138f663a8cb6@mail.gmail.com>

You will probably continue to doubt until it
happens to you.
You cannot make this happen,it doesn't
rely on attractiveness of your partner or any
other"rule of attraction"you have established.
Think "surrender"

Kathryn

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mario <sopelote at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I'm inclined to agree..there's no such thing as a 'tango-zone'
>  just an 'elitist-zone' or a 'one-ups-manship' zone or a 'give-me-something-to-talk-about' zone.
>  But then again, when I'm in the arms of...or she is in my arms...wow, it's better than sex.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>

From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 20:16:18 2008
From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] Very Interesting Video
Message-ID: <756338.9613.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You know, whenever I see a message like this, I wish there was some indication from the author as to what makes the clip whatever attribute the author of the post assigned to the clip.

What makes this clip very interesting for you, "m i l e s?"
 ===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================



----- Original Message ----
From: m i l e s <tangobliss at gmail.com>
To: tango-l at mit.edu
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:01:34 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Very Interesting Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-MpnYgQac
_______________________________________________
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l


From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 27 21:08:28 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:08:28 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] an interesting video
Message-ID: <BAY105-W46886FD16F08DB035258FB97600@phx.gbl>


What makes this clip very interesting for you, "m i l e s?" ' Dubravko asks.

It must be the girl's legs, if you fix your eyes in hyer shoes you enter "Tango ozone".

Sergio

_________________________________________________________________
Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows?.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/

From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 21:51:57 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:51:57 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] an interesting video
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W46886FD16F08DB035258FB97600@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W46886FD16F08DB035258FB97600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48B604BD.7030702@yahoo.com>

yes, whether you are a leader or follower.....    !

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>What makes this clip very interesting for you, "m i l e s?" ' Dubravko asks.
>
>It must be the girl's legs, if you fix your eyes in hyer shoes you enter "Tango ozone".
>
>Sergio
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows?.
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 27 22:48:51 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:48:51 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] An interesting video
Message-ID: <BAY105-W360B691C075FC18012A7E197600@phx.gbl>


I said: " It is possible that if you fix your eyes in the girl's shoes you can enter the "Tango-Ozone".

Ilene  (with certainty ) replied:   "yes, whether you are a leader or follower..... !"

She is right, so those that sometimes lead and at other times follow, will not be able to enter the "Tango-Ozone", they will  eternally dance in limbo.

Now, what happens when one of those bi-dancers change and become fixed either in leading or following (assumiing that that was possible), I wonder, will they be able to enter the "Tango -Ozone"?  

I imagine that if they genuinly repent they can, but let us see what Ilene has to say...

Sergio
_________________________________________________________________
Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger.  Find out how.
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From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 27 23:19:56 2008
From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:19:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] bitter sweet experience
In-Reply-To: <48B5BF5C.8020205@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <848859.82321.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I just came back from a workshop in the Midwest.  The instructors line up was very good; the themes for the workshop were all very useful and carefully put together; the hosts were incredibly hospitable and kind.  Eight of my students attended the workshops and their learning experience was wonderful.
Overall the experience from the event stand point was very positive!

The dark side was represented by some of the dancers attending the workshop and the nightly milongas.  During class we could feel the disdain and anger that some of the dancers had towards others either because they superior to less skilled dancers or because they were not selected during one of the many 'couple switches'.

The milonga event was SO terrifying that a very famous couple switched an entire class theme to address the horrible events that took place on the dance floor in the night before.
We spent an entire class period learning how to navigate and to move cordially and politely on the dance floor.
What I witnessed was sad... people were simply stepping on the dance floor instead of waiting for a proper timing to step onto the dance floor.  As a result I saw most the male dancer jumping in front of other couples and causing in some instance collisions. No matter how crowded the floor is one can always carefully merge with the traffic.

In another instance I saw a woman kicking the mid-section of a man's back while she was attempting to do some sort of flying leg movement.

In a sad way the lack of respect, anger, disrespect experienced in this workshop mimic some of the past events we have witnessed in the tango list.

This was truly a bitter sweet event...

Good night
Amaury






      

From runcarolinerun at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 28 10:12:00 2008
From: runcarolinerun at hotmail.com (caroline)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:12:00 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 29, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <mailman.873.1219853869.14939.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.873.1219853869.14939.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY125-W4628997AC8AF84777F944CDE600@phx.gbl>


Hello,

i wrote a post yesterday that never got published to tango-l. was wondering why?

thanks,

Caroline 

_________________________________________________________________


From runcarolinerun at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 28 10:29:04 2008
From: runcarolinerun at hotmail.com (caroline)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:29:04 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull (Mario)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.873.1219853869.14939.tango-l@mit.edu>
References: <mailman.873.1219853869.14939.tango-l@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY125-W23E663ED606C7BA4ADE953DE600@phx.gbl>


I am violating my own solemn promise never to post to Tango-L again but
after reading this post by Mario, well, sometimes one just can't keep
their mouth shut.

Mario,

I could tell right off the bat
after reading your post that you have not been dancing the tango for a
long time. If I'm correct, you've started this year or thereabouts.

Mario, classes being the venue of the future? God forbid. Sorry but reading that made me shudder.

The
first year I was learning the tango, I put all the importance into
classes and practicas, dancing with one inexperienced leader after
another, not knowing that I was actually going backwards, not forward.
My entire focus was on technique, not music nor succumbing to the
spirit of tango. I spent much of my time fighting to maintain my axis
and balance while being awkwardly led through giros and one gancho
after another...feeling my love for tango fading.

It was only
when I stopped classes and practicas and went to milongas only that I
finally learned to ditch all the bad habits picked up from classes and
rather overly opined beginner leaders in practicas that I discovered
what Real Tango is.

Mario, give it more time before you start
your thesis. You're only on the brink of discovering what Real Tango
is. I love that you are enthusiastic about this, fabulous, wonderful,
but you are still at the beginning, give it time before you make
absolute theories because I promise you, your opinions and ideas will
change and change yet again, altered and shaped and molded by each
forthcoming experiences. You will eventually shed the training wheels
of practicas and classes as you get better and more confident and ept
enough to coordinate all that you need to do as a leader and your
desire to analyze and talk tango technique will diminish as it will all
become second nature, and your only thoughts will be to get up and
share the love and emotion of the music with a lovely lady in your
arms. 

Everything is so seemingly complicated in the beginning,
but it gets simpler and simpler as all the pieces fall into place in
your subconscious.

Tango classes being the venue of Real Tango in the future...can't get over that. Banish the thought.

_________________________________________________________________
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From imhmedia at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 28 11:30:04 2008
From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:30:04 -0400
Subject: [Tango-L] An interesting video
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W360B691C075FC18012A7E197600@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W360B691C075FC18012A7E197600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48B6C47C.2010309@yahoo.com>

well if they genuinely repent, then they will no longer be in limbo, so 
no problema!
seriously, I just commented on Mario's original post because I see too 
many people just dancing 'for the steps' or to have a fun night out. 
Nothing wrong with that, it's just that I think the majority of people 
on this list seek more  and have already experienced more or we wouldn't 
be so fanatical!
as for tango zone, I like Dan's definition and I think that feeling of 
being one with the music and your partner ...well, that's what it's 
about... that's what hooks us.... and that's what keeps us going.....  
all best,
Ilene

Sergio Vandekier wrote:

>I said: " It is possible that if you fix your eyes in the girl's shoes you can enter the "Tango-Ozone".
>
>Ilene  (with certainty ) replied:   "yes, whether you are a leader or follower..... !"
>
>She is right, so those that sometimes lead and at other times follow, will not be able to enter the "Tango-Ozone", they will  eternally dance in limbo.
>
>Now, what happens when one of those bi-dancers change and become fixed either in leading or following (assumiing that that was possible), I wonder, will they be able to enter the "Tango -Ozone"?  
>
>I imagine that if they genuinly repent they can, but let us see what Ilene has to say...
>
>Sergio
>_________________________________________________________________
>Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger.  Find out how.
>http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yahoo_082008
>_______________________________________________
>Tango-L mailing list
>Tango-L at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>  
>

From tangopursan at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 28 19:57:53 2008
From: tangopursan at yahoo.com (Tango Academy of Pasadena)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] August-Authentic Argentine Tango Series
Message-ID: <653651.17625.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> TANGO
>  
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>  
> "THE DANCE WITH THE POWER TO TRANSFORM YOU"
>  
> "Learn the essence of tango exclusively with Argentine
> instructors".
>  
> * Pre-registration required.*
>  " Limited number of applicants per series. No partner
> is necessary." 
>  
> Option A: Beginners Series, Friday, August 29, 2008
>  
> 10 Hour Class Series (five Fridays 8:30PM to 10:30PM)
>  
> Option B: Beginners Series, Saturday, August 30, 2008
>  
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>  
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>  
> 10 Hour Class Series (five Tuesdays 8:30PM to 10:30PM)
>  
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>             
> 10 Hour Class Series (five Wednesdays 8:30PM to 10:30PM)
>  
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>            
> 10 Hour Class Series (five Thursdays 8:30PM to 10:30PM)
> 
> Applicants will be accepted following instructor's
> evaluation. 
> 
> Pre-Registration required. 
>  
> Private tango instruction available. 
> 
> Location 
> Tango Academy of Pasadena
> c/o le studio
>  57 Palmetto Dr, Pasadena, California 91105
>   (One block North of W. California Blvd., between FairOaks
> Ave& S. Pasadena Ave).
>  
> Telephone: 626-963-8020; E-mail: tango1543 at yahoo.com
>  
> "Sunday Tango Practica" 
> for information click below:
> www.tangoacademypasadena.com
>  
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> Group", Click below
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>  
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From info at adagioconbrio.co.uk  Thu Aug 28 20:11:59 2008
From: info at adagioconbrio.co.uk (info@adagioconbrio.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:11:59 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing Gender in Milongas of Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <4685940.196201219968719857.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver>

Dear Tango-L members, i would like to share with you my research paper.
 
The drafted and re-drafted article turned into this paper that i am sure i will re-draft again and again..... so feedbacks are welcome! 
{even with flames-handy for asado!}
 
The video presentation was part of the international conference ?Body, Movement and Dance in Global Perspective? in Hong Kong and is
available on youtube.
 
You can access it on my website: www.adagioconbrio.co.uk
 
Or directly to youtube:
 
PART ONE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWh4m7ZOddA
PART TWO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwXaplXex0M
PART THREE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr52zQOVdlI
 
 
-if you prefer to receive the complete text please don't hesitate to contact me-
 
I hope you will enjoy it...
 
Best regards, Adriana


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Fri Aug 29 01:42:27 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 00:42:27 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Dancing Gender in Milongas of Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <D14DA2A8-4C16-4F24-AA18-35A9D00FE2F2@gmail.com>

Dear Adriana,

Thank you for sharing your research paper on tango with us.

I find that you touch on many very interesting topics, gendered  
behavior being just one of them. Your observations about tango nuevo,  
electronic music, and gay milongas - all of which receive frequent  
comment in the tango internet - are seen in a revealing light when  
given a theoretical context such as your analysis of the performance  
of gender roles. Sometimes I feel that we talk about these subversive  
phenomena in tango in a mostly reactive way. Usually the question is  
whether subversion of codes should be accepted or not. Your study  
looks at some of the cultural pressures to conform in the milonga, and  
also looks at the resistance or interventions of these pressures, and  
it tries to provide an explanation of what is at work socially in  
these dynamics. I like it very much.

You cite Rodolfo Dinzel several times to define the normative  
dominance of the man and the submission of the woman. It comes across  
as if Dinzel agrees with these gender categories, and in a sense  
prescribes that that is how tango should be done. Yet, in his  
writings, Dinzel criticizes these gender roles, even though he admits  
that many contemporary dancers hold to these views.

When Dinzel describes the tango as a male monologue, he clearly takes  
the side that the tango was originally a dialogue, and that it is  
ideally a dialogue. The womanly role of passive obedience in tango is,  
in my reading of Dinzel, a sort of degradation of the tango. I think  
you could better give Dinzel his due by providing more context for his  
remarks.

Best wishes for your future dance and writing projects.

Joe Grohens

From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 29 00:11:20 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull
Message-ID: <400313.6510.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Mario, 

I'm assuming you wrote this post just to get people talking. OK, I'll bite.

I don't enjoy classes and I don't enjoy practicing. But I do both so that 
my dancing skills and technique?will improve and?I can better enjoy the 
milongas. I hope the day will come when I need never attend another 
class.

I know there are some who say that you just need to dance to improve 
and that classes can even be counterproductive but, IMHO, those people?
are wrong. Classes and practice, to me, are necessary evils to achieve 
my full potential. But certainly not an end in themselves.

Jack


----- Original Message ----
> From: Mario sopelote at yahoo.com
?perhaps the class will be THE venue of the future.
> ? Heck, if we serve cheese and wine and have breaks, etc. etc. ..the class could 
> be THE new Tango!



      



From jackdylan007 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 29 01:19:13 2008
From: jackdylan007 at yahoo.com (Jack Dylan)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] dull, dull, dull (Mario)
Message-ID: <171124.67329.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Caroline,
?
I can certainly sympathise - a year of nothing but classes and practicas 
must have been terrible and would be enough to destroy almost anyone's 
love of tango. I'm just surprised that your teacher and others in your class 
didn't encourage you to attend milongas. Hereabouts, most people start 
to attend milongs after completing an 8-week beginner course, and some?
even earlier.?

But, IMHO, it sounds like you've made 2 serious errors in your learning 
of tango. 

The first was to attend only classes and practicas but not milongas. 
Milongas, especially for ladies and as you've now discovered, are an 
absolutely essential and indispensable?element in learning tango. 

But now you've compounded that mistake by attending milongas only 
but not classes or practicas. No doubt in the milongas you're dancing 
with men of a higher standard than you would in the classes and I'm 
sure this has had a positive effect on your dancing. But, by attending 
milongas only, IMO,?very soon you'll reach a plateau and your 
improvement will slow, stop or even regress.

I've seen it so many times when lady classmates stop attending 
classes, When I dance with them in the milongas I can feel no 
improvement, whereas their former lady classmates continue to 
improve.?And, as time goes by, the difference becomes more and 
more noticable.

Classes, practice and milongas - all 3 are necessary - and all at the 
same time.. But, yes, in the long run, milongas are the most 
important element.

Jack



----- Original Message ----
> From: caroline <runcarolinerun at hotmail.com>
> 
> 
> It was only
> when I stopped classes and practicas and went to milongas only that I
> finally learned to ditch all the bad habits picked up from classes and
> rather overly opined beginner leaders in practicas that I discovered
> what Real Tango is.
> 


      



From tangopursan at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 29 14:25:13 2008
From: tangopursan at yahoo.com (Tango Academy of Pasadena)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:25:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tango-L] September Sunday Tango Practica & Enrollment day
Message-ID: <242033.93739.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


SUNDAY TANGO PR?CTICA

?"THE DANCE WITH THE POWER TO TRANSFORM YOU"
?
"Learn the essence of tango exclusively with Argentine instructors".
?
This Argentine Tango gathering offers students the opportunity to practice what they have learned throughout the five-week series by dancing with different partners, as well as to socialize with their fellow students and guests. A welcome is extended to visitors who may be interested to learn and explore all the options that Tango Academy of Pasadena Series program has to offer.??
You are cordially invited to the

Sunday Tango Pr?ctica on

Sunday,?September 7th, from 4:30?pm to 7:30 pm.

&

Sunday,?September 28th, from 4:30?pm to 7:30 pm.


Upcoming Argentine Tango Series?Enrollment Day 
&?
Orientation Tango Class to Newcomers.

( Hors D'Oeuvres and Beverages?included with admission) 

Tango Academy of Pasadena
c/o le studio
?57 Palmetto Drive, Pasadena, California 91105
(1 block North of W. California Blvd, between Fair Oaks Ave?& S. Pasadena Ave.)

Telephone: 626-963-8020; E-mail: tango1543 at yahoo.com

www.tangoacademypasadena.com

Sponsored by: 
T. A. O. P. 
Our own exclusive collection of tango shoes.
Available for purchase at our studio



      


From donnay at donnay.net  Fri Aug 29 15:43:17 2008
From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:43:17 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L] Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
In-Reply-To: <694449.47100.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <694449.47100.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <60840576A8BA46E797FC2212F76CE77A@gatewaylaptop>

Yes, Jack, leaders can get into the "tangozone". I get there often when I'm leading. I recommend not trying so hard to be seductive and creative. You don't need lots of moves to make the dance great - that's just showing off your skill to your partner. Tango is not about that.

You didn't mention interpreting the music - I find when I zone into the music, with the right partner who also hears it, I'm "in the zone"!

I also dance lots of other dances - swing, salsa, ballroom, country - they are all great fun. I love them. I wouldn't give them up. But there is no reaching "the zone" as there is in tango.

This makes me think: If you haven't experienced "the zone" and you've been dancing awhile, it may be time to rethink your approach to tango. The only people I know who never get to the zone are those that approach tango as just another partner dance, with lots of steps to learn. It's not.

Loisa Donnay
Minneapolis, MN




  Jack wrote:
  That's OK for you ladies but, as a man, I'm way too busy taking care 
  of my partner and navigating the crowded floor, not to mention trying 
  to be seductive and creative, to even think about the 'tangozone' for
  myself.

  I'd like to ask the other guys out there, is it even possible for the man 
  to enter the tangozone or is it only for our partners who can relax, close 
  their eyes and think about nothing but the music and the dance? 

  Jack


From info at adagioconbrio.co.uk  Fri Aug 29 19:48:36 2008
From: info at adagioconbrio.co.uk (info@adagioconbrio.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:48:36 +0200
Subject: [Tango-L] text and Dinzel's
Message-ID: <29685389.143291220053716929.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver>

Dear Tango-L members
i would like to clarify that the text that i am reading on youtube is the whole text of my research. By 'if you prefer to receive the "complete text" please don't hesitate to contact me' i was referring to the formatted for publishing text (with footnotes, references, bibliography).
i apologize for the confusion. thank you to all that contacted me and indeed when i finish the formatting i could make it available.

Thank you Joe. I will insert a note of the complete quote in the published version, which is:

?As a monologue in which it is the man who, generally, gives out commands, and the woman whose role is to listen and act accordingly, in a passive and submissive attitude. This is a deep rooted concept traditionally accepted, and repeatedly ratified through oral and written custom?.. But it is simply incorrect?
Gloria and Rodolfo Dinzel, ?Tango: and anxious quest for freedom? Abrazos Books, 2000, p 43 

However in the paper i didn't feel inclined in using words such as: correct / incorrect, so i omitted the last section. 
I believe that the second quote  gives a clear understanding of what Dinzel's vision is about:

?The woman who dares ?.to converse, to try a dialogue, to express her own responses to the music, that woman is often suppressed by the man who performs his dancing in a monologue kind of attitude?. (Dinzel 2001: 44-45)

i am thrilled by the generous, genuine, informative, proactive responses.
Really, thank you!
Adriana


From joe.grohens at gmail.com  Sat Aug 30 14:19:00 2008
From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 13:19:00 -0500
Subject: [Tango-L]  Tangozone (was dull, dull, dull)
Message-ID: <6E75A4C1-176A-4D64-87E2-01793E37103D@gmail.com>

Lois Donnay wrote:
> You didn't mention interpreting the music - I find when I zone into  
> the music, with the right partner who also hears it, I'm "in the  
> zone"!
Yes. For me, at least, any high point or memorable tango dance has  
always been one where I and a partner "got tight" in the music, and  
improvised together mutually and musically.

If I were to define what "tangozone" means to me, it would _only_ mean  
having this musical synchrony with my partner. I would not call it a  
trance state, as many people do. Any more than I would call locking on  
during jazz improvising or afro-cuban drumming a "trance". I also  
would not describe tangozone dance moments as "unconscious". I think  
these are misuses of the words "trance" and "unconscious". Maybe I'm  
being too literal.

What I desire and appreciate in a dance partner is that she hear the  
music like I hear it, to a certain extent, but also that she really  
dance the music as she herself hears it. If she is too "compliant",  
let's say, and merely dances my ideas, does what I lead, that can be  
nice, successful, pleasant, but it is not what hooked me on tango. I  
want to feel her interpretation and improvise with her on the music  
together. Also, it won't be "the zone" if she dances her own  
interpretation so strongly that she disregards mine.

Sometimes tango partners won't hear music the same way. An extreme  
example might be when one partner hears a fast milonga and focuses  
primarily on the 16th notes of the melody instruments, and then wants  
to express all of them in a kind of frenzy. I would find it hard to  
join up with that kind of partner. The excitement and drama of tango  
music sometimes makes dancers want to jump out of their skin, and they  
are prone to moving big, or fast, or doing "a lot", when the other  
partner wants to express the same drama more minimally, through  
sublety of timing.

I use to think of some failed dances as "she was not waiting for me,"  
but that's really not it. It's more a matter of both partners being in  
agreement in their way of hearing the music.

Which is why appreciation of tango music is such an important part of  
learning to dance well. I'm still amazed at the number of tango  
dancers I know who don't own any CDs of tango music. They don't listen  
to tango music outside of the dances, practicas, etc. They are often  
the ones asking the DJs to play alternative music at the milonga. If  
they do by some "tango" music, it is often Piazzolla or neotango. It's  
no wonder that they want to try to dance to that... it's what they are  
listening to at home.



From larrynla at juno.com  Sat Aug 30 15:54:54 2008
From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:54:54 GMT
Subject: [Tango-L] Class announcements do not go here
Message-ID: <20080830.125454.24552.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com>

Announcements of classes, festivals, and such do not go in this forum. Use TANGO-A for that. You will get much more attention there.

TANGO-L is for discussions.



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From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 31 12:05:47 2008
From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 16:05:47 +0000
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Salon championship
Message-ID: <BAY105-W27423FA4D7D4EFDED44C2A975D0@phx.gbl>



In the finals of Tango Salon ( Social Tango), the couples are judged on the basis of : continuous embrace, circulation on the dancing floor,  dancing low on the floor, cadence and beat; 54 couples were selected in the semifinals yesterday.  For this occasion the two couples that won the Metropolitan Championship in last June also danced.

Below you will see how social tango is danced in Buenos Aires, provided there is enough room to dance.  Notice a "V" embrace, long steps, stepping toes first, erect position and elegance.

Some videos of the Metropolitan competition last June along with the winner last night Daniel Nacucchhio and Cristina Sosa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy7Gn5KCSc0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbFTAAcb18&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsIPORXSEOk

Best regards, Sergio
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