From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 1 08:15:02 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 07:15:02 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:31:19 -0400, you wrote: >Mash: > >"allow us to lead": OK: "responsibility for direction": OK; "decisions"; OK. All nice and humble. >But then we have ..."lift you up" and "free you so that you can ...". With all due rspect Mash, >that doesn't sound very humble. How do you think it sounds to the ladies on this list who may >be far better dancers than you with many more years of experience. And you're going to lift >them up and free them. What is is it about Tango that makes regular, normal guys suddenly >feel like mini-gods? No one has inferred mini-gods.., or anything even close.. But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. Leaders 'invite' the followers, or 'allow' them if you will, to the extent of the leaders imagination and ability.., to move and dance to the limit of *their* imagination and ability. To be as free as they can and wish to be.., but limited and governed by the leader's ability to bring it on. A good leader will 'free' them more than a poor leader. But no matter... The concept in itself is *not* derogatory. >IMHO there is only one way to think about Tango and that is as a 100% equal partnership. >And there's nothing equal about a musician and his Strad. At the end of of the day, the >musician gets the glory and adulation while the Strad goes back into its box until needed >again. Is that how we think of our partners? Iow, the Strad goes back to its table until the very next dance? :-) The applause was certainly meant for both, and everyone there knew it. The Maestro was better because of the Strad.., and the Strad just happens to be deaf. Partnership is the key-word. Neither is anything without the other. One gives the leads, the other takes the leads. No matter how anyone wants to put it as an individual, it still takes two to Tango and that's the way it's done. Tango is what the couple is out there for. Not to compete. Neither going for Alpha. With the Tango couple or the Maestro/Strad pairing, neither 'half' is the product. They work together to produce it. In any case, Tango allows people to have the freedom to express themselves. Driving laws were created to protect the weakest, oldest and most incapable of drivers so they're able to get behind a wheel and manage the road... Are we to control and censor Tango's expression to the point where the most sensitve of people can bring themselves to be a part of it? We need to stop trying to put Tango itself in a box. But that's not all... To me I do understand that society keeps women more in a 'cage' than a box.., and for most of the time. So much so that most women don't even realize how much they are restricted. But Tango is one of the few ways they can come out of it. Freely, safely, and vicariously sexual as women. It seems that people should try to enjoy it for what it is. Else we may end up with plain vanilla Tango..., and be plain vanilla people... ;-/ IMHO... Tango on... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 1 09:13:13 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: <49622.1206936265@tangohk.com> References: <49622.1206936265@tangohk.com> Message-ID: Keith... I said the (auto) cross was contrary to Tango. I've no problems with how to lead one if it is to be led. The problem is that the lady often does a cross on her own. Actually it's not *really* a problem cause I expect them to... I live with it. But I do slip in side steps or other measure when I want to insure the lady does not cross., and I don't want to tell her not to. Still, that's the need that shouldn't be.., Tango wise.., no matter how nicely it's done. When I do lead one, it's with a clockwise torso jog. I dont like turning to the left which causes the follower to have to catch her balance to cross. To me it seems unecessarily disruptive to an otherwise peaceful walk. Those who do it I'm sure will say it's not a problem. It's no doubt just a perception on my part.., but the followers all seem to know my way too.., so I'll keep it. Or maybe they'd all do it anyway.., without my lead... :-) To me there's still another factor that makes the cross a 'convention' contrary to Tango. And not just the 'auto' part... It's taught to be done only when partners are outside right. Never, as one would expect in a truly improve dance, to be ok on either side. And as you say..., there are times when the lady may think she should cross when she doesn't get the right lead 'not to'? That sure sounds 'auto' and contrary to Tango to me. Then there's the line from another post... >Unless she is a very basic beginner in the first month or >so - and has just learned the cross. This doesn't sit very well either... I know it's done of course.., but when you come right down to it.., *why* is it done? The lady does not need to 'learn the cross' if she is never to cross by herself.., automatically. Was it said in the same sense as her needing to be taught all the moves she needs to know? Of course I'm hoping you don't say yes.., cause imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. Just single steps... So why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being led? With the style that one moves in Tango, the cross will then be able to happen by itself.., and only when led. She doesn't have to 'learn' it as such. Same with barrida, displacements, and similar single step moves... The women doesn't need to *learn* them... They should have no effect on her normal 1 of 3 steps. It is the leader's job to have his own two feet in place and, with the right timing, work to pull off any of these moves by himself. The lady just keeps walking... Nothing really different happened to her, did it? A barrida is simply a leader's embellishment and done entirely by the leader alone. Even the volcada, a single exagerated step cross. If the lady is over being surprized by tilts and other pheripheral distractions.., it hardly seems necessary to ever 'teach' her that move either. Oh well. I'm sure the cross will keep being taught, and done.., one way or another. :-) Cheers... Floyd On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:04:25 -0400, you wrote: >Floyd, > >I don't understand this. Just this weekend, I was teaching a group the >right-side walk in crossed feet. 1. Man LF side, 2. RF close and 3. LF fwd >outside partner. The lady does 1. RF side, 2. LF close without weight, >and 3. LF back. If, on 4. I then walk straight forward my RF will be in line >with the ladies RF and we can continue with 5. LF fwd and to walk for as >long as we want. However, if on 4. or any other RF fwd step, I step >forward with my RF in front of my LF, I will lead the lady to the cross >and transfer weight on 5. > >There should be nothing automatic about the cross. The man leads the >lady to cross when he wants her to cross. The problem arises when the >man gives mixed signals such as leaving her space for the cross but then >not giving a definite lead to the cross. She might then be unsure about >whether to cross or not. Depending on her training and experience in >that situation some ladies will cross while others won't. If she chooses >the option the man didn't intend, it's the man's fault, as always :-). > >Keith, HK > > On Fri Mar 28 23:52 , Floyd Baker sent: > > The 'auto' cross therefore flys in the face >>of the most fundamental Tango rule.., that every step be led. >> >>Not only does the lady do the cross on her own.., under circumstances >>she has been taught to 'remember' as the time to do it.., which goes >>against another basic tango concept..., it is also an un-led weight >>change... ?? >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Tue Apr 1 10:13:01 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:13:01 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> Message-ID: >>"allow us to lead": OK: "responsibility for direction": OK; "decisions"; >>OK. All nice and humble. >>But then we have ..."lift you up" and "free you so that you can ...". With >>all due rspect Mash, >>that doesn't sound very humble. How do you think it sounds to the ladies >>on this list who may >>be far better dancers than you with many more years of experience. And >>you're going to lift >>them up and free them. What is is it about Tango that makes regular, >>normal guys suddenly >>feel like mini-gods? > > No one has inferred mini-gods.., or anything even close.. > > But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing > by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can > do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. Leaders 'invite' the > followers, or 'allow' them if you will, to the extent of the leaders > imagination and ability.., to move and dance to the limit of *their* > imagination and ability. To be as free as they can and wish to be.., > but limited and governed by the leader's ability to bring it on. As a matter of fact, Floyd, Mash's posting sounded better to me than yours. I don't know how Mash dances but your choice of words (being "governed by the leader") proves that you are exactly what you just accused Mash of, feeling like a mini god. And dancing with guys who feel like God's gift to tango, in their own opinion, not the women's, is not as great as you think.. . > But that's not all... To me I do understand that society keeps women > more in a 'cage' than a box.., and for most of the time. So much so > that most women don't even realize how much they are restricted. But > Tango is one of the few ways they can come out of it. Freely, > safely, and vicariously sexual as women. It seems that people > should try to enjoy it for what it is. > I, for one, do realise that, and dancing at a milonga with guys who behave as though they are at high school party, does not improve things at all. Like Huck said, they think, they "just have to roll up with their souped up car in front of the girl's house and she will come running downstairs, because she has been chosen over some other tramp..." From mashdot at toshine.net Tue Apr 1 12:02:22 2008 From: mashdot at toshine.net ('Mash) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:02:22 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Dance and the Brain Message-ID: <20080401160222.GB14467@grace> DANCE AND THE BRAIN http://www.dana.org/news/publications/detail.aspx?id=10744 "A critical outcome of our research is that learning by observing leads to action resonance and prediction that is the same as occurs with physical learning. This strong link between learning by doing and learning by observing at the neural level might benefit from early exposure to dance, where the consistencies between training methods could be acquired." THE DANCING BRAIN http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=2930 "How can watching one dance performance, whether classical ballet or the newest modern choreography, be so engaging?even thrilling? and watching another leave us indifferent? Dutch choreographer and researcher Ivar Hagendoorn argues that contemporary neuroscience points at the answer. The limbs move, but it is the brain that dances." -- 'Mash London,UK From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 1 12:06:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the cross ... 's taught to be done only when partners are outside > right. Never, as one would expect in a truly improve dance, to be ok > on either side. Actually Floyd the cross has been taught (and learnt, and danced) on her right, her left, her right back, her left back, his right front, his left front, his right back and his left back. > imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. True in real dancing, but a class with guys that haven't learned the moves, she does have to 'learn' them, else in practice they won't get done. Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours instructors that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. > why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being > led? No reason at all... except it requires a teacher who is able and willing to lead the student. > Same with barrida, displacements, and similar single step moves... The > women doesn't need to *learn* them... Indeed she doesn't - for dancing. The only reason she might need to learn such moves is for the benefit of a guy who hasn't learnt them and/or an instructor who hasn't taught them. -- Chris From tango.society at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 13:52:47 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:52:47 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses In-Reply-To: <42274.3643.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <42274.3643.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Mario wrote: > Alberto Dassieu y Eva Garlez are becoming two of my very favorite dancers. > They sometimes dance together as in this video. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpljPVhW6Gs > Alberto is master of the Vals (not this video) and Eva has something very > earthy and female that is amazing to watch.. > This slow tango has lots of pauses...where the next move slowly builds.. They're not with the music. They're too busy with adornments. Contrast that with the following, danced to the same tango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v246c8wP6_0 Excessive pausing is not for social dancing. It clogs the line of dance. A pause of one or two beats, e.g., when changing direction from a suspension is OK. Prolonged pauses with excessive embellishment loses connection with the music (even Pugliese). Even in exhibition, pauses should be timed with the music. Pausing when dancing to Pugliese matches the pauses in the music. Ron > > > > --------------------------------- > Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From MACFroggy at aol.com Tue Apr 1 14:04:57 2008 From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:04:57 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Closure of "Nino Bien" -- hopefully temporary Message-ID: Hola List! Last week there were problems of "papeles" regarding the upstairs salon of Region Leonesa, where the milogas of Nino Bien on Thursdays, as well as others on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday are held. For now the salon is closed without any idea of when there will be a reopening. This is just to advise visitors to check on the status before going. It's a terrible shame, not only because many people are out of work, but because it's the best salon in Buenos Aires. http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) From tangopeer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 14:25:41 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses In-Reply-To: <42274.3643.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69299.72198.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mario, A private lesson can give you a lot of detail on "feel" in this dance. So, when it is available to you, my advise it to put your chest on the chest of a very good dancer. Here's an example that might help you to believe what I am saying. I had signed up for a week-long series of privates in close embrace. There was something that I wasn't getting. It was quite a while ago. I think it was that I wasn't moving far enough forward so that she could complete her cross correctly. Anyway, she finally led me. WOW! In all the words that she could say, I wasn't getting it. It was a much stronger lead than I imagined. I had the same experience in a workshop led by a milonguero from BsAs. (I don't remember who). But, my partner dragged me over to him and said, "Show him" to the instructor. Again, wow, what a strong lead! And, again, all the words in the world weren't showing me. So, my advice is, now and then, when there is something having to do with feel, and you CAN find a good teacher to dance in close embrace with, do it! It works!!! By the way, I'm surprised all of the Basic-8 teachers haven't spoken up. In the basic pattern, the 2 and 5 positions are natural places to pause ... well, natural places to teach the pause. Your partner will appreciate it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 14:32:02 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <294704.58951.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote: > > > They're not with the music. They're too busy with > adornments. This is a PERFORMANCE! And there is often a problem of sychronization with videos on YouTube. > Excessive pausing is not for social dancing. It > clogs the line of > dance. A pause of one or two beats, e.g., when > changing direction from > a suspension is OK. Prolonged pauses with excessive > embellishment > loses connection with the music (even Pugliese). THIS IS A PERFORMANCE!!!! Did you notice 150 other couples on the floor? No. And did you correct Gavito when he paused for whole measures on the social dance floor? You WISH you could dance like those folks....or do you prefer dancing with violins, too? Nancy <> de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 1 15:07:40 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:07:40 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. Message-ID: <20080401190353.35B7E23552B@p3fed1.frb.org> Floyd (Buffalo) wrote: >>imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. Chris (UK) responded: >True in real dancing, but a class with guys that haven't learned the >moves, she does have to 'learn' them, else in practice they won't get >done. Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours instructors >that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. Taken to an extreme, this seems to suggest a model in which the instruction for the men and women is conducted in separate groups--with the women learning to follow and the men learning the moves and how to lead the moves. For mixed group classes, generalized leading and following skills might be taught. Anything else runs the risk of women learning the follower's part (which is not the same as learning to follow) men learning the leader's part (which is not the same as the men learning the moves and how to lead them). Group classes conducted this way often rely heavily on memorized patterns with followers and leaders being taught their respective moves. In my opinion, it would be better for the leaders to learn the follower's moves. Then at least they would know what they were expected to lead. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 15:54:09 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses Message-ID: <748033.53709.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >"So why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being led?" - Floyd This makes SOOOO MUCH sense to me! ..and that is why I quit taking classes...open embrace classes to be specific...they were basic correography classes..how to collude with your partner as she anticipates and back leads everything...in an oh-so-subtle way, of course. As I remember, there were three codes.. 1. woman crosses when the man takes two steps to outside right...and outside left?? nothing. 2. Starting a sequence with a forward step, lead always goes with the left foot. 3. Starting with a back step, lead always goes with the right. Lead was taught as a firm open frame. ... ..I decided to go with close embrace instead. ...I'm still trying to find someone to teach me to lead. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 17:34:42 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:34:42 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross Message-ID: I would like to know what is the benefit of leading vs. not leading the cross. My impression is that most people (both in Argentina and abroad) do not lead the cross. The woman automatically locks her left leg in front of her right one, (and puts her weight on that left foot), two steps after the man steps to her right. Women are taught to do this very early in her learning process. This means that the woman does not cross if the man walks in front of her or to her left. She does when he steps to her right. Sometimes he force a cross on different circumstances by slightly touching her leg with his leg. If the man walks to her right and wishes to prevent her from crossing (this is not frequent) he does so by placing his foot close to her right one so that she is deprived of that option. Most of us know how to lead the cross of course, but we only do that if absolutely necessary for some particular reason, otherwise we allow and expect , the woman to cross by default. If she does not do it (rare except beginners), then we lead her to do it. Summary: There are many ways to dance tango, this makes it more interesting. So you have two choices: lead or not to lead the cross... that's is the question. So I wonder what is the big deal about all this? ... "To be or not to be". Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:24:27 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross Message-ID: <968967.35600.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay, now that this discussion is quite nice and respectful of different views, let me put in my two centavos... Here is how I see those and related things. In principle, we dance tango with our bodies/torsos -- not with our legs or other parts (I hope you do not understand this as me saying that we leave those other parts at the table :-). So a leg moves as a result of the torso moving (or sometimes in preparation for a torso movement, mostly true for men -- although, even then the beginning of the movement is done my torso). The foot is placed at the optimal place on the floor so that a dynamic balance is maintained. In chest-to-chest embrace sort of dancing, the two torsos move as one. The initiation of the move is usually done by the man. The consequence of this paradigm is that the woman will (or has a good opportunity to) cross (the kind where her left leg ends up in front of the right, her left foot to the right of her right foot--although, the same holds true for all other cross situations) because her torso is moving in such a direction that makes it, the cross, the most comfortable and natural step. In that context, ultimately the cross step happens as a result of the "invitation to cross" and is not made because it is some kind of a rule. Of course, there are many variations on this theme. There is also much to be said about the energy (not only the kinetic kind) that a movement projects and is felt that also hopefully affects where the leg/foot goes. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From nina at earthnet.net Tue Apr 1 19:00:33 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:00:33 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] [Tango-A] SA: Tango Therapy Congress In-Reply-To: <007b01c89449$1f638b40$ac8f3dc8@JANIS> References: <007b01c89449$1f638b40$ac8f3dc8@JANIS> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080401165327.01ad85a8@earthnet.net> This is really cute! Not that tango is not therapy... Watching people dance and learn over the last 13 years, I would propose with some certainly that everyone gets therapized, one way or another, whether they want to or not :). And things do get worse before they get better, just as they sometimes do with more traditional forms of therapy. Neuroticism must be a side effect of the treatment. I assume they do not follow the principles of evidence-based practice... I wonder how they measure the outcomes.... :) Best, Nina At 04:38 PM 4/1/2008, Janis Kenyon wrote: >The first international congress of Tango Therapy will be held July 17-19, >2008, in Rosario, Santa Fe, Argentina. Those of you who are health >professionals may want to attend (and combine it time in the milongas). One >speaker is from Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri. >http://www.congresotangoterapia.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-A mailing list >Tango-A at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-a From jayrabe at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 19:02:12 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:02:12 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sergio said: > If the man walks to her right and wishes to prevent her from crossing ... he does so by placing > his foot close to her right one so that she is deprived of that option. This highlights what I contend is the crux of the situation. If one does NOT do as Sergio said, that is, if the leader places his foot some distance to her right of her right foot, thereby allowing the cross, then this foot placement and the accompanying misalignment of the torsos constitutes a defacto "lead." That is, if the follower's objective is to maintain connection by staying in front of her leader, and if he steps slightly wide on count 4, then the cross is the only step that she can do that will bring her back into alignment with him. That is, if she steps L back, she clearly pulls away from him, a fact which is usually evident after the fact to beginning followers who will feel the disconnection and (in a practice situation) will often comment, "I missed the cross, didn't I?" So to summarize, you can lead the cross with the torso windup and unwind, turning CW on 4 and returning CCW on 5, or you can keep your torso facing front and effectively "lead" the cross by placing your foot wide to your left of her right foot with no torso movement at all. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 19:22:57 2008 From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 16:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <433526.94153.qm@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the cross is done automatically, without input from the man, other than being "on her left" for two steps, the woman completes a series of movements which we refer to as "crossing". This precludes the introduction of variations which can occur during this "simple" move that actually consists of several parts. It is one example of the fact that while we say that tango is an improvised dance, in fact there are many prescribed series of steps which, once learned, become patterns that can be difficult break. Steve Sergio Vandekier wrote: I would like to know what is the benefit of leading vs. not leading the cross. Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Tue Apr 1 19:37:51 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:37:51 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross References: Message-ID: <000c01c89451$6af0ffe0$44203e43@michaelditkoff> This issue was discussed previously when Mario wrote about blocking the woman from crossing. The man goes sideways to cross feet. He comes forward on his left foot, forward on his right outside partner, connecting with the woman's left foot, preventing her from crossing. Michael Washington, DC Leaving Friday for Atlanta Tango Festival ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Rabe" Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross Sergio said: > If the man walks to her right and wishes to prevent her from crossing ... he does so by placing > his foot close to her right one so that she is deprived of that option. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 21:55:47 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 18:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] one step at a time Message-ID: <361750.24422.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In case you missed it, here is Maria following and using the 'one step at a time' technique. ..can it get more beautiful, subtle and powerful than this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tangopeer at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 22:00:47 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross In-Reply-To: <968967.35600.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <239400.62447.qm@web52210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I remember in classes, the discussions of leading versus automatic movement relative to the cross. But, as you mature, from the leader's point of view, there is no automatic cross. If you want her to cross, then you lead such that the path of her upper body suggests that the left foot should pass in front of the right. If you do not want her to cross, you lead with a strong enough intention so as to communicate to your follower that her foot should not cross. There is a gray area in between. That gray area is the "automatic" area for followers. They have been taught that it is (can be) automatic, so they, typically, choose to cross. That's fine. I DO think that a lot of leaders are thinking in terms of "automatic" and, therefore, aren't thinking in terms of clarity for the woman. So, to come around full circle, there shouldn't be any "automatic" thinking for the leader. There should only be the awareness that there is "automatic" thinking by the follower. And, even at that, "automatic" is a bad word. Doing what someone (a lot of people) called the "protocol" is a better way to put it. With all that said, it is still an improvised dance, an improvised dance where accurateness sure makes it so that the follower doesn't have to help the leader do his part by operating in automatic mode to cover for the leader who is leading with ambiguity! ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 1 23:39:25 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:39:25 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:13:01 +0900, you wrote: > >>>"allow us to lead": OK: "responsibility for direction": OK; "decisions"; >>>OK. All nice and humble. >>>But then we have ..."lift you up" and "free you so that you can ...". With >>>all due rspect Mash, >>>that doesn't sound very humble. How do you think it sounds to the ladies >>>on this list who may >>>be far better dancers than you with many more years of experience. And >>>you're going to lift >>>them up and free them. What is is it about Tango that makes regular, >>>normal guys suddenly >>>feel like mini-gods? >> >> No one has inferred mini-gods.., or anything even close.. >> >> But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing >> by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can >> do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. Leaders 'invite' the >> followers, or 'allow' them if you will, to the extent of the leaders >> imagination and ability.., to move and dance to the limit of *their* >> imagination and ability. To be as free as they can and wish to be.., >> but limited and governed by the leader's ability to bring it on. > >As a matter of fact, Floyd, Mash's posting sounded better to me than yours. >I don't know how Mash dances but your choice of words (being "governed by >the leader") proves that you are exactly what you just accused Mash of, >feeling like a mini god. And dancing with guys who feel like God's gift to >tango, in their own opinion, not the women's, is not as great as you think.. Some words do *grate* on some people don't they... *Governors* FYI are various devices placed on trucks, trains, and other moving things that limit their full potential. Speed, gear shitfing, breaking, and so on. I'm saying.., and I thought I made it perfectly clear.., that the ladies are 'governed' (please read LIMITED), by their own ability *after* being LIMITED by the leaders ability. What DO you people want, anyway...? :-/ >I, for one, do realise that, and dancing at a milonga with guys who behave >as though they are at high school party, does not improve things at all. >Like Huck said, they think, they "just have to roll up with their souped up >car in front of the girl's house and she will come running downstairs, >because she has been chosen over some other tramp..." I suggest then that people work on straightening out particular people, in person, as needed. And not bring it here to the list to people who do not deserve it. Just a thought.., eh? Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Tue Apr 1 23:13:45 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:13:45 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> <2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> Message-ID: <001001c8946f$9a970b90$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Woman can do plenty without a leader, if they know how.. and want to. The ONLY workshop I ever took on this subject was at the summer NY Tango Festival. The class, interleading, by Virginia Kelly, taught women how to stop the man from moving and add her own dialogue to the dance. I don't remember all the examples, but I do remember the man leading a stepover. The woman steps over, and drags the man foot. I know that would give some men a coronary. Another example is the man leads a front ocho, and the woman stops the man's frame because she wants to embellish the pivot. The woman isn't back leading by leading the man into a particular figure. She just stops the man's movement because she wants to do something. The problem is few women know or want to do this. Even when a man leads a step over, few women take the opportunity to embellish it. Granted, the man's frame may not allow the freedom, which is a shame. Michael Going to Atlanta Friday. Will file my taxes when I return. I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango Somebody (I can't keep track with messages pasted on top of messages) wrote: But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 2 03:02:23 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:02:23 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] one step at a time Message-ID: <50421.1207119743@tangohk.com> Thanks Mario, that's a great video and particularly relevant to the thread 'Not leading vs leading the cross". Take a look at Dani's very first figure ... LF side, RF close, LF fwd outside partner and RF fwd. At this point, to all the auto-crossers out there, Maria should cross. Dani isn't even blocking her cross with his RF. But she doesn't cross; she waits for Dani's next lead, which, in this case is a Back Ocho. Beautiful. IMO, game, set and match to those who lead the cross :-). Keith, HK On Wed Apr 2 9:55 , Mario sent: >In case you missed it, here is Maria following and using the 'one step at a time' technique. > ..can it get more beautiful, subtle and powerful than this? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related > From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 2 03:54:34 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:54:34 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. Message-ID: <50568.1207122874@tangohk.com> Floyd, IMO, the first thing every lady need to learn is how to make a connection with the man and how to follow. But is that enough? Well it is if the lady is satisfied to just make the steps and make the 'moves'. On the other hand, if she wants to dance in a beautiful and elegant way, and I've never met a lady who didn't, then of course she must also learn HOW to make the steps and the 'moves'. Floyd, the lady's cross is a beautiful step. Or do you think it's just placing her LF in front of her RF. Are you satisfied with that, because IMHO the ladies are not. Keith, HK On Tue Apr 1 21:13 , Floyd Baker sent: > >So why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' >being led? With the style that one moves in Tango, the cross will >then be able to happen by itself.., and only when led. She doesn't >have to 'learn' it as such. > >Same with barrida, displacements, and similar single step moves... The >women doesn't need to *learn* them... They should have no effect on >her normal 1 of 3 steps. It is the leader's job to have his own two >feet in place and, with the right timing, work to pull off any of >these moves by himself. The lady just keeps walking... Nothing >really different happened to her, did it? A barrida is simply a >leader's embellishment and done entirely by the leader alone. > >Even the volcada, a single exagerated step cross. If the lady is >over being surprized by tilts and other pheripheral distractions.., it >hardly seems necessary to ever 'teach' her that move either. > From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 2 06:21:14 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:21:14 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: <2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> <2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> Message-ID: > Some words do *grate* on some people don't they... > *Governors* FYI are various devices placed on trucks, trains, and > other moving things that limit their full potential. Speed, gear > shitfing, breaking, and so on. > > I'm saying.., and I thought I made it perfectly clear.., that the > ladies are 'governed' (please read LIMITED), by their own ability > *after* being LIMITED by the leaders ability. alright, call them "drivers with limiting ability" then. > > What DO you people want, anyway...? :-/ real truck drivers, darling. Astrid From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 2 07:34:12 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:34:12 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: <001001c8946f$9a970b90$44203e43@michaelditkoff> References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com><2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> <001001c8946f$9a970b90$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <5D13E68371E848B2AF91F5B8266B9983@homePC> > Woman can do plenty without a leader, if they know how.. and want to. The > ONLY workshop I ever took on this subject was at the summer NY Tango > Festival. The class, interleading, by Virginia Kelly, taught women how to > stop the man from moving and add her own dialogue to the dance. Carlos Gavito taught me that in a private lesson. >I don't remember all the examples, but I do remember the man leading a >stepover. The woman steps over, and drags the man foot. My old friend Guido taught me that in a tango bar in Berlin in '99. At Trialarit which is closed now. >I know that would give some men a coronary. Esp. if they just pretend to be on their balance at all times, yes. Or to not be on automatic pilot, which is easy to fall into when they are leading their usual routine... >Another example is the man leads a front ocho, and the woman stops the >man's frame because she wants to embellish the pivot. The woman isn't back >leading by leading the man into a particular figure. She just stops the >man's movement because she wants to do something. The problem is few women >know or want to do this. I know how to do this. Sometimes apply it when I get bored...; ) >Even when a man leads a step over, few women take the opportunity to embellish it. Granted, the man's frame may not allow the freedom, which is a shame. Well, this one must be the oldest firulete in the book. Just go back to the "wet puppy"- thread in 1999. Haha. Remember, Tom Stermitz, you named that step... Astrid > From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 08:56:52 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 05:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: <50568.1207122874@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <103307.4840.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Keith wrote: > IMO, the first thing every lady need to learn is how to > make a connection with the man and how to follow. But is that enough? Well it is if the lady is satisfied to just make the steps and make the 'moves'. On the other hand, > if she wants to dance in a beautiful and elegant way, and > I've never met a lady who didn't, then of course she must also learn HOW to make the steps and the 'moves'. Thank you, Keith! The myth that women don't need to be shown the steps was taken out of its historical context. At one point in time that might have been true - before ganchos, boleos, barridas, and whatnot were added to the dance. As I posted on this list previously, Maria Cieri explained to me that young women learned how to do the steps from their mothers, aunts, cousins, and friends. Let's use some common sense, here. Actually, if one pays attention to what novices actually do when they are invited into the cross without any instruction, you will notice that almost all of them will turn their hips away, take a forward step, turn back face their partner, and return to standing on both feet. That is not the cross. I've never met a woman who hasn't needed to be corrected on her cross or has had to be instructed that she needs to stay on one foot after pivoting. That's real life, not myth. As for women limited by the man? Hah! A man or woman who thinks like that is the one who is limited. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. In another post, Alex referred to "bad habits". Through Alexander Technique, I've learned to think of habits as neither good nor bad. Even a bad habit had a usefulness at one point. That approach, I find, is helpful in understanding how to change a habit. PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From febaker at buffalotango.com Wed Apr 2 10:00:28 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:00:28 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com> <2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:21:14 +0900, you wrote: > >> Some words do *grate* on some people don't they... >> *Governors* FYI are various devices placed on trucks, trains, and >> other moving things that limit their full potential. Speed, gear >> shitfing, breaking, and so on. >> >> I'm saying.., and I thought I made it perfectly clear.., that the >> ladies are 'governed' (please read LIMITED), by their own ability >> *after* being LIMITED by the leaders ability. >alright, call them "drivers with limiting ability" then. Excuse me but it's 'limited'.., not 'limiting'. It's not purposeful on our part... >> What DO you people want, anyway...? :-/ >real truck drivers, darling. > >Astrid I guess maybe not..? If all you want to do is stop them from moving...? In order to do your own things...? As I said..., followers can do nothing without leaders. Try getting up on the floor without one. And that also applies to Michael's examples. One complains if it's said leaders 'free' them... and one complains if it's said leaders 'restrict' them. Where's the logic...?? We need to get over attitudes I think. Civility is still the way to go.., and I'd much rather talk about productive Tango things, myself... So I'll go do that... Hugs... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 2 09:39:25 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:39:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... Message-ID: <52139.1207143566@tangohk.com> Careful Astrid, you're forgetting your place. Any more such mutinous talk about doing things without the maestro's divine leadership and Floyd will orderyou back in your box :-) On Wed Apr 2 19:34 , "Astrid" sent: From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 10:03:41 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: <52139.1207143566@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <724029.63570.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Keith wrote: > Careful Astrid, you're forgetting your place. Any > more such > mutinous talk about doing things without the > maestro's divine > leadership and Floyd will orderyou back in your box Correction, Keith. Violin case, please. <> de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 10:34:32 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43098.66978.qm@web55311.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Floyd Baker wrote: > One complains if it's said leaders 'free' them... and > one complains if it's said leaders 'restrict' them. Where's the logic...?? We need to get over attitudes I think. Sounds to me as if it's about using words correctly in an appropriate context and not about attitudes. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From febaker at buffalotango.com Wed Apr 2 12:11:38 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: <20080401190353.35B7E23552B@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080401190353.35B7E23552B@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: I'm covering points from Stephen, Chris and Michael's posts... Chris, summarize like this. >Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours >instructors that tell the girls to copy a move rather than >teach the guys to lead it. I would reword it to say...: Unfortunately the prevalent instructor's method greatly favours class models that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. The instructors that cause it to happen. It is easier that way... It is more fun that way. The couples think they are learning how to Tango... Everyone is happy... Everyone except for all those originating and previous era Tangueros who are now turning over in their graves. Stephen..., you are right-on with holding separate lessons. I suggested separate ladies lessons right here, 12 or 13 years ago. It was absolutely clear to me, immediately upon taking my very first major workshop, that what I was taught was wrong. That memorized patterns were not the way to go. In fact there was no lead taught at all at that class. And the instructors were considered top of the line. So now that I'm getting back to teaching, I'll be doing separate gender lessons myself. I have a leaders only scheduled on the 12th and a ladies only on the 18th... With 'neutral' taxi dancers for each and the practicas that will follow... I think instructors need to consider this method. Stop the 'mechanization' of Tango. I personally tell my partners that while I am using them to learn my own moves and to train my body to do the moves, they should not think about what I, or themselves, are doing 'pattern' wise. But to concentrate only on each lead as it comes. As well as they're able to that is... What with the leads being unsure and likely 'mis' leads too, as I experiment with my own body. I know it's not easy but they seem to get the idea... Actually it follows as an extention.., that if the ladies are started in Tango right, they won't have patterns on the brain in the first place. So it's just a continuation then of their normally following, lead by lead.., whether it's leader only practice or an actual Milonga. Michael? You say in elsewhere in this thread..: >IMO, the first thing every lady need to learn is how to make a >connection with the man and how to follow. But is that enough? Yes... >Well it is if the lady is satisfied to just make the steps and make >the 'moves'. Should be... That *is* the connection after all... >On the other hand, if she wants to dance in a beautiful >and elegant way, and I've never met a lady who didn't, then of course >she must also learn HOW to make the steps and the 'moves'. I would tell the lady if she wasn't content to dance 'connection' with Tango then she should go do some 'beautifully elegant' ballroom.... You're flying in the face of Tango's improvisation. No need to fix what isn't broke... You are supporting a method that was seemingly devised to teach those who could not grasp following each led step, without it being part of a recognizable pattern... Turning it into mechanized Tango... Take care... Thanks for thinking about it... Floyd On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:07:40 -0500, you wrote: >Floyd (Buffalo) wrote: >>>imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. > >Chris (UK) responded: >>True in real dancing, but a class with guys that haven't learned the >>moves, she does have to 'learn' them, else in practice they won't get >>done. Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours instructors > >>that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. > >Taken to an extreme, this seems to suggest a model in which the >instruction for the men and women is conducted in separate groups--with >the women learning to follow and the men learning the moves and how to >lead the moves. For mixed group classes, generalized leading and >following skills might be taught. Anything else runs the risk of women >learning the follower's part (which is not the same as learning to follow) >men learning the leader's part (which is not the same as the men learning >the moves and how to lead them). Group classes conducted this way often >rely heavily on memorized patterns with followers and leaders being taught >their respective moves. In my opinion, it would be better for the leaders >to learn the follower's moves. Then at least they would know what they >were expected to lead. > >With best regards, >Steve (de Tejas) > > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 11:38:22 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A video that I like Message-ID: <172610.64941.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCB8d508p0Y This is a Milonga that I like and the woman, Eva Garlez, is dancing in mocassins. I really like the look of her embrace and how she just sort of 'lays' into the dance. I would call her style 'earthy' and 'sexy'. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 2 11:39:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: <103307.4840.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Let's use some common sense, here. Well, since you insist, Trini... > I've never met a woman who hasn't needed to be corrected on her cross > or has had to be instructed that she needs to stay on one foot after > pivoting. The main reason such instructors never meet those dancers is simply that those dancers stay well away from such instructors' classes. And with good cause. -- Chris From robinctara at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 11:44:10 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:44:10 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20080401190353.35B7E23552B@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860804020844p1df90c7bkbd71688dbc7223a6@mail.gmail.com> I think it's time to let this subject die. If you want a new topic that will probably never die, how about the placement of the women's arms and head? Any comments? Especially interested in two "holds" that I observe these days in the milongas in BA. First the draping of the woman's left arm down across the shoulder of the man with elbow pointed at the ceiling and the other with the woman's left arm placed very low, almost around the man's waist. And then there are the men who insist that the woman turn her head to the right. Robin Tara Tara Tango Shoes On 4/2/08, Floyd Baker wrote: > From mashdot at toshine.net Wed Apr 2 11:58:56 2008 From: mashdot at toshine.net ('Mash) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:58:56 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Prospeccion del Tango-l Message-ID: <20080402155856.GA11295@grace> Subscription to this list has certainly been invigorating, yet so is standing ankle deep in ice-cold water. This last week's reading; postings on a posts, discussions on the meaning of a discussion and arguments over... Unfortunately the really great posts are rare and it is truly exhausting panning the dirt for the gold. I'm packing in my shovel and heading back to city. If you need to get hold of me you can find my email address at the top of this post. 'Mash London,UK From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 12:20:36 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. Message-ID: <530734.82791.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Floyd, your approach to teaching sounds innovative and refreshing, I hope that you continue to keep us up-to-date on the results of your experimentationi in new, effective ways to teach/learn to dance the tango. Also, I hope that we all here, on Tango-L, can give you the listening and support that you are going to need in the future. I ask everyone to please ease up on the polemic and to quit making personal remarks that put others on the defensive.. This is all to remindful of cut-throat academia where the brainiaks are all trying to disembowel each others work..let's give each other a chance to bring a small fleck of gold out of our pan. How's that for a simile??? --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From febaker at buffalotango.com Wed Apr 2 13:16:13 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:16:13 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:34:42 +0000, you wrote: >My impression is that most people (both in Argentina and abroad) do not lead the cross. Sergio... I believe your impression is very correct. And I'm happy to hear that it's so in Bs. As. too. While everyone wants to keep talking about the ways the cross *is* led.., cw, ccw, defacto, etc..., the fact remains that it is done automatically by most ladies. When a leader leads the cross, voila... The lady crosses. But he doesn't know she would have crossed anyway. ;-) It seems to be ingrained in followers today to do it under its well known conditions. Not to say the cross is bad. All I've said was that it was 'contrary' to Tango... A convention. A contradiction.. While it is a nice one and I sort of like it.., and do lead it.., I think it should stop being taught as a move for followers to learn... It probably came in during the European era, and just possibly by the Castles on their way back to the States? Earlier canyengue for instance had a lot of ankle crossing, but it was not thee cross. Thee cross seems to have been put in by ballroom 'sylibus' thinkers... I'm convinced one of its purposes was as a means of transition from one complicated move to the next and created during Tango's export to the world. It's easier to go to a familiar spot before starting something new and fancy, than directly from four abstract foot positions that a leader may find he has from a previous step. Argentines could transition of course.., but the rest of the world was not brought up with Tango as they were... There was no 'immersion'. So simpler easier ways had to be found. This of course if merely conjecture. I'm not a Tango historian.. But all the facts I read and the experiences I've had, with instructors from Bs.As. and elsewhere.., definately point to it being true. Many go the easy way and use what we're used to... 'Ballroom' methods... We are rote addicts. :-) Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 12:26:53 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross Message-ID: <562261.28037.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "I'm convinced one of its purposes was as a means of transition from one complicated move to the next and created during Tango's export to the world. It's easier to go to a familiar spot before starting something new and fancy, than directly from four abstract foot positions that a leader may find he has from a previous step. Argentines could transition of course.., but the rest of the world was not brought up with Tango as they were... There was no 'immersion'. So simpler easier ways had to be found".- floyd this sounds like good theory to me...also a justification for the basic 8 ...I hate to justify it though --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From jayrabe at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:28:59 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:28:59 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Two "holds" In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860804020844p1df90c7bkbd71688dbc7223a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080401190353.35B7E23552B@p3fed1.frb.org> <9e1cc4860804020844p1df90c7bkbd71688dbc7223a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I asked Meredith Amarilla about the woman draping her arm down as if reaching for his tailbone. She said it was an attempt to get more physical contact along the length of her arm, to facilitate a better emotional connection. Can't comment on her arm around the waist. Regarding which way should she face... In a "V" embrace like is common in BsAs, turning her face to the right is clearly more comfortable than to the left. And I heard one old Argentine milonguero say that the man should always have the lady facing to the right, because if she faced to the left, over his shoulder, he had no way of knowing if she was eye-flirting with someone in the gallery. However I personally prefer her facing the left, and I prefer a more parallel (ie non-V) embrace. I've had women request/insist on facing right, but I've never asked a follower to do so. J TangoMoments.com > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:44:10 -0300 > From: robinctara at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. > > If you want a new topic that will probably never die, how about the > placement of the women's arms and head? > > Especially interested in two "holds" that I observe these days in the > milongas in BA. > First the draping of the woman's left arm down across the shoulder of > the man with elbow pointed at the ceiling and the other with the > woman's left arm placed very low, almost around the man's waist. > > And then there are the men who insist that the woman turn her head to the right. > > Robin Tara > Tara Tango Shoes _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 2 12:47:44 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 01:47:44 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: <724029.63570.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <724029.63570.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > --- Keith wrote: > >> Careful Astrid, you're forgetting your place. Any >> more such >> mutinous talk about doing things without the >> maestro's divine >> leadership and Floyd will orderyou back in your box > Nancy: > Correction, Keith. Violin case, please. > until next time... don't forget to dust me off before you take this streamlined tool out on the dance floor. ; ) Astrid From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 2 12:53:15 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 01:53:15 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] On similes and such like... In-Reply-To: References: <49701.1206937879@tangohk.com><2uv5v31jtfur7tqaaj71echupkrbmcsfhs@4ax.com> Message-ID: <7933BE32F8694D3F8430078A88C229BD@homePC> Limited ability is always very limiting to us violins and brooms, you got this bit right, Floyd. >>> I'm saying.., and I thought I made it perfectly clear.., that the >>> ladies are 'governed' (please read LIMITED), by their own ability >>> *after* being LIMITED by the leaders ability. > >>alright, call them "drivers with limiting ability" then. > > Excuse me but it's 'limited'.., not 'limiting'. > > It's not purposeful on our part... > >>> What DO you people want, anyway...? :-/ >>real truck drivers, darling. >> >>Astrid > > I guess maybe not..? If all you want to do is stop them from > moving...? In order to do your own things...? I mean, if I want a truck driver, I will go and find a real one. Outside the milonga. > > As I said..., followers can do nothing without leaders. Try getting > up on the floor without one. Sometimes we are much better off without you guys. If you are a good boy, I will show you where you can watch me on youtube. And by the way, you are exactly what I thought you are, this shows it, and I still liked Mash's take on these things much better. Astrid, taking a breather From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 2 13:07:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Floyd wrote: > I would reword it to say...: > > Unfortunately the prevalent instructor's method greatly favours class > models that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys... Interesting! But I think slight flawed... if the "prevalent instructor's method" is the DIC method (Demonstration, Instruction, Correction). Your propose this method favours models that "tell the girl to copy a move". Well, since "telling the girl..." is inherent to the /method/, to attribute it to the /model/ is, I think, unsound. > The instructors that cause it to happen. Agreed. But its true only because instructors have been selected by the model. Each instructor is free to choose his method, except if his /model/ is unviable economically, soon he's no longer an instructor. > It was absolutely clear to me, immediately upon taking my very first > major workshop, that what I was taught was wrong. That memorized > patterns were not the way to go. In fact there was no lead taught at > all at that class. And the instructors were considered top of the line. My experience too. Then I found everyone who considered these instructors "top of the line" was a fellow instructor, or someone who'd not yet learned to dance, or both. Mario wrote: > Floyd... I hope that you continue to keep us up-to-date on the results > of your experimentationi in new, effective ways to teach/learn Floyd, I hope you'll continue to update us on the results of these /old/ effective ways to teach/learn ;) Good luck! -- Chris From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:39:27 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:39:27 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] La cruzada - the cross Message-ID: Some people here think that every step in tango is part of a molinete to the right or to the left, therefore the sequence of molinete steps is maintained by the woman, unless the man blocks or changes them. We always refer to right or left from the man's position point of view. A molinete (turn) to the right of the woman from the cross is composed by: Cross front-open-cross back-open. The leg that crosses either back or front is always the right one,( the left one always opens ). A molinete to the left implies that the leg that crosses is always the left one, (the right one always opens). When the woman walks back we could say that she is executing the molinete steps in a straight line. At the salida, (as she goes back) she opens to the right, with her right, "crosses back" with her lt., "opens" with her rt. , and naturally has to cross front with her left... And this she does. If she was to continue walking backwards, she would repeat the same sequence. As the woman steps back you will notice that her hip (navel, umbilicus) points somewhat to the right when she steps with the right foot and to the lt. when she steps with the lt. one. After her 4th step of the base, (rt.back) her hip points slightly the the right, if you continue walking in a straight line forward, (leading with your chest forward) this induces her to lock her lt. foot in front. This creates "la cruzada" "the cross" totally in a natural way. Summary: there is nothing "unnatural" or "artificial" or "foreign", about the cross, it is as natural as the other tango steps. Best regards, Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51N1653A From Crrtango at aol.com Wed Apr 2 15:13:15 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:13:15 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] subjects that never etc. Message-ID: Robin wrote: <<<>>> I see the draping left arm with the elbow up often in NYC these days. Some of the women I have danced with do it...mostly the younger dancers. It looks a little awkward and mannered to me. Don't see the low arm though. I just see them as another stylistic glitch. They come and go. As to women looking to the right with the man, I prefer it and teach it. (Danel and Maria taught it that way, said it was classic tango de salon style whereas looking over the man's shoulder evolved more from the milonguero camp.) But I never "correct" a woman who doesn't do it, because most don't. It doesn't seem to be that much of an issue to me. If I were choreographing something I might prefer the head that way, but at the social milonga it's no big deal. See you next week, Robin ;-) Cheers, Charles I have reasons for my preferences of course but they are mostly personal stylistic choices. I happen to think they look more elegant. We all have different ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 17:18:01 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? Message-ID: <925145.54009.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Last night, I did not dance well. Certain 'mistakes' are starting to repeat themselves...ie: turning or stepping to my left when the woman's weight is on her right foot and I am not leading an ocho...ugh..I did that around three times in different dances..it makes for an ubrupt halt to the flow...duh. So, I'm thinking that I have gotten too loose and am letting my consciousness go wherever it feels like it...the music, the other dancers, etc. etc.. and so, I stumble into a mistake. My question is to the men and women who dance close embrace. I'd like to hear any feedback from women about being conscious of the lead's consciousness of her weight placement...anything at all would help. And I'd like to hear from the Men; How do you keep the woman's weight/foot placement in front of your consciousness at all times? Do you keep reminding yourself of it? Have you found a way to incorporate it into the whole feel of your dance? Is there a trick to it that you've discovered?..Do you visualize it (without looking down) somehow??.. all comments appreciated.. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 17:42:32 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? In-Reply-To: <925145.54009.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <820466.50331.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK, Mario! Now you are learning tango!! I think what is happening is that you are picturing the steps you have seen on YouTube and going for the result instead of thinking of the dance as a work in progress not just in steps, but in every weight change and every torsion of the body. This is the problem with the 'automatic cross' for instance. I never cross automatically because many guys in BsAs dance tango ( yes, tango) without ever marking a cross. One guy leads the beginning of the cross and then whips my ankle into a tight boleo around my right foot, ending in a back step....sort of a cross feint. It is all a stimulus and response thing, you see. Yes, you must know not only where her weight is at all times, but where it is likely to be with every move you make and be prepared to compensate if she does not do what you expect. That is what a partnership is all about and what makes every second interesting and challenging. It is: Stimulus....Response......Response......Response....... etc And never look down - it will throw both axes off. Felicitaciones on your breakthrough. Nancy --- Mario wrote: > Last night, I did not dance well. Certain > 'mistakes' are starting to repeat > themselves...ie: turning or stepping to my left > when the woman's weight is > on her right foot and I am not leading an > ocho...ugh..I did that around three > times in different dances..it makes for an ubrupt > halt to the flow...duh. > So, I'm thinking that I have gotten too loose and > am letting my consciousness > go wherever it feels like it...the music, the > other dancers, etc. etc.. and so, > I stumble into a mistake. > My question is to the men and women who dance > close embrace. > I'd like to hear any feedback from women about > being conscious of the lead's > consciousness of her weight placement...anything > at all would help. > And I'd like to hear from the Men; How do you > keep the woman's weight/foot placement > in front of your consciousness at all times? Do > you keep reminding yourself of it? > Have you found a way to incorporate it into the > whole feel of your dance? > Is there a trick to it that you've discovered?..Do > you visualize it (without looking down) > somehow??.. all comments appreciated.. > > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From tangopeer at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 17:49:30 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? In-Reply-To: <925145.54009.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <730248.85081.qm@web52205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> A quick answer, without getting too deep: When I dance, I am always concentrating on my follower's free leg. I am not focussing on my feet. --- Mario wrote: > Last night, I did not dance well. Certain > 'mistakes' are starting to repeat > themselves...ie: turning or stepping to my left > when the woman's weight is > on her right foot and I am not leading an > ocho...ugh..I did that around three > times in different dances..it makes for an ubrupt > halt to the flow...duh. > So, I'm thinking that I have gotten too loose and > am letting my consciousness > go wherever it feels like it...the music, the > other dancers, etc. etc.. and so, > I stumble into a mistake. > My question is to the men and women who dance > close embrace. > I'd like to hear any feedback from women about > being conscious of the lead's > consciousness of her weight placement...anything > at all would help. > And I'd like to hear from the Men; How do you > keep the woman's weight/foot placement > in front of your consciousness at all times? Do > you keep reminding yourself of it? > Have you found a way to incorporate it into the > whole feel of your dance? > Is there a trick to it that you've discovered?..Do > you visualize it (without looking down) > somehow??.. all comments appreciated.. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 17:57:01 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <786113.70032.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yep, last night's dancing wasn't good..but I'm trying to look at it positively. Perhaps, being able to zero in on what's wrong is an advance forward in my dancing. Here is the second 'problem' that I discovered. At the end of a not-so-flowing dance, I blurted out to my partner; " There were some rough spots in that one, wasn't there?" Well yes, she replied..when you just stood there and did this ( standing erect, holding her arms forward with a slightly concaved chest) How was I supposed to know what you wanted?? Well, on youtube it worked...(hee hee, that was for Nancy.) Anyway, after we've walked some and I turn or side step, etc..I've been trying to give the woman some room to turn and walk across my front..so, I sort of concave my chest and spread my arms as to give her room...I was hoping that she would just make something up..like a forward ocho or something... So, the question is; do I have to know exactly what the follow is to do at all times? Is there no 'creative space' where the lead can open his stance and just let the follow invent?? In writing about this and reading some off-list replies..I'm thinking that maybe my problem was in not dancing apilado...but had I danced apilado wouldn't the front ocho be even more difficult?? hmmm, I have a lot to work on here..I hope my practice partner gets here, soon. This is advanced stuff! --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From Crrtango at aol.com Wed Apr 2 18:34:19 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:34:19 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Too many videos spoil the dance. Message-ID: sopelote wrote (among other things): <<>> Talk about a subject that won't die, or better yet, advice that is never heeded. It is a very serious mistake to attempt to learn tango from videos unless you are already a VERY advanced dancer. Many beginners continue to do this and continue to wonder why it doesn't work when they do it. I think what happened to you was just a good example of why you shouldn't...and where did you get the notion that making your chest concave would somehow make you dance better?!? No wonder your followers can't follow you. Apilado has nothing to do with it. Stop watching so many videos and learn from a real person, or better yet, practice what you already know (or don't know well) because you still seem to have too many basic problems yet. Charles ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) From flame at 2xtreme.net Wed Apr 2 18:43:50 2008 From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:43:50 -0800 Subject: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross (Floyd Baker) Message-ID: <47F39BA6.3848.19382D@flame.2xtreme.net> I've been reading the many posts regarding the cross and want to put in a few thoughts on the subject. I remember Orlando Paiva Jr. stating in classes that the woman always crosses after 2 outside steps on her right. It's a RULE in tango". I assume he learned this from his father. That said, as a follower, I can quickly pick up if a leader expects this or not and I adjust to those expectations. I prefer to be led to the cross or to do it myself if it feels right and it doesn't interrupt the flow of the dance. my 2cents, Flame From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Wed Apr 2 18:42:04 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:42:04 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? References: <786113.70032.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005e01c89512$c7254e80$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Mario: When a dance doesn't go well, I assure you the woman knows. You don't have to bring it to her attention. Silence is golden. Just because a figure worked on youtube doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Every woman is different. Some require a firmer lead. In fact, it's difficult to see the lead. If all you're doing is looking at the feet, you're not going to learn tango. Men don't lead with their feet. I remember my teacher showing me somthing Saturday afternoon at 1 and it worked fine. For some reason, it didn't work at the milonga the same night at 9:30. Yes, you have to know what the follower is going to do because you're leading. That's what leading means-communicating what you want the woman to do. Yes, there is creative space but not every space is creative space. It depends on when and where you give the space. How are you communicating to the woman to "do her own thing." I don't open my stance to signal play time. I'll loosen my right arm and see the woman's response. Some women want to play and some don't. And, if the tanda went as badly as you wrote, why would you expect the woman to show creativity when there are rough spots? Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mario" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance,even her's ??? At the end of a not-so-flowing dance, I blurted out to my partner; " There were some rough spots in that one, wasn't there?" Well, on youtube it worked. I was hoping that she would just make something up..like a forward ocho or something... So, the question is; do I have to know exactly what the follow is to do at all times? Is there no 'creative space' where the lead can open his stance and just let the follow invent? From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 18:47:21 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <955709.27878.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> tangomaniac, there are some really good observations in your post..thank you very much! two misconceptions however...1. I never look down. 2. The rough spots were the spaces that I alloted for 'creative invention'..they didn't happen before. but as i said..your post was very helpful. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From stermitz at tango.org Wed Apr 2 18:56:27 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:56:27 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] subjects that never etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > Robin wrote: > <<< in the > milongas in BA. > First the draping of the woman's left arm down across the shoulder of > the man with elbow pointed at the ceiling and the other with the > woman's left arm placed very low, almost around the man's waist.>>>> Personally, I think the elbow up and arm coming back down looks really weird. It also raises the shoulder which can have back injury consequences. My understanding is that these women are copying an individual style or one-off they saw someone in Buenos Aires do. It's a common enough story: A new, pretty young thing becomes "belle of the ball" for the year, she has a personal quirk or distinctive mark, which gets copied and starts a new style. I heard the same thing with the nose pressed into the leader's cheek. They saw someone do it, then copied it. Women with their butt sticking up and arched lower back is another new style. On that one, all I can say is, these 20-somethings are simply "not yet injured". > As to women looking to the right with the man, I prefer it and teach > it. > (Danel and Maria taught it that way, said it was classic tango de > salon style > whereas looking over the man's shoulder evolved more from the > milonguero camp.) > But I never "correct" a woman who doesn't do it, because most don't. > It doesn't seem to be that much of an issue to me. If I were > choreographing > something I might prefer the head that way, but at the social > milonga it's no > big deal. > > Cheers, > Charles In Buenos Aires I've seen the woman facing the same way as the man or different directions over each other's shoulders. Probably 75 or 85% look over each other's shoulders. I don't have a stylistic opinion about either pose. But I am fairly short, so for me, the "look the same direction" is just not functional. It cuts of half of my vision. It also feels more asymmetric, which makes my back hurt. From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 19:01:47 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Are they having as much fun dancing this as I am watching???? Message-ID: <679001.35133.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KJN1UKfMgI O.K. this is my last post of the day...but once again Javier Rodriguez & Andrea Miss? ....is this improvised? Will they dance it completely differently the next time? ...or at least not the same moves at the exact same place? What is your opinion? Me, I think that it is mostly choreographed because they know the song exactly and know what they want to do at any spot. ..I also am completely zonked out by this performance it is the closest thing that I've ever seen to 'going to heaven after you die'..... perfect bliss!! --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 19:02:28 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? Message-ID: <451450.33647.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay Mario: First, dancing tango is not a cerebral activity. If you end up thinking what you are doing or what you will or want to do as you dance, it's already too late and you loose the impact of both the music and your partner. So, where is the magic trick? It is in dancing, dancing, dancing and experiencing the dance, number 1. I hope you do not expect to become a good dancer in six months or any predetermined amount of time. Everyone is different. Continuous dancing will let you start feeling where your partner is at all times without thinking about it. There are times when you will feel ambiguous about where she is with her balance so then you make one or two little mini steps or just change your own weight to (re)establish the balance or knowledge of where she is exactly. Never, ever rush into a step without being reasonably sure that your partner can actually participate in it. If you are not sure, do those mini steps or weight changes (btw, I consider those to be steps), so that if she is not on the foot you think she is on, you will feel it without crashing. It is of crucial importance to know both where your partner's axis and her "free" foot are (as someone else mentioned here). Perhaps you will feel a need to start dancing some more complicated sequences or advanced steps fearing that your parters will get bored. Don't! Make sure that you dance to the music from the get-go. Add bits to your dance as you improve, but do not rush. Just about any dancer worth dancing with will appreciate you dancing musically even if in a very simple way. If you dance to the music with pausing (by all means do pause when music asks for it, but pausing does not equal stopping) every dance will be different because every tango is different from the next. Even if you "just walk," there is plenty of possibilities in just walking (change of front, change of direction) to make it interesting. Number 2, do not "plan" a "sequence" as you dance. On a crowded floor you will almost never be able to dance it anyway. As a related notion, do not concern yourself with what you want to do, but rather what you'd like your partner to do. Then make it possible by placing yourself adequately.Remember that in tango, from the outside, it is the woman who shines and you support it. But, by all means make sure that she is comfortable in your arms--no surprises until you are sufficiently good to make novel steps so natural for you partner so that they are no longer surprises. Number 3, practice on your own, do over and over the exercises which improve your balance under various conditions (these are not steps but exercises). This is like doing scales for a musician. Those exercises are done daily regardless of your overall level of dancing. Muscles eventually learn what to do to put your body in a desired position. Perhaps some day I will videotape various exercises I do on my own whenever I have a chance--sometimes adding new ideas to them--and share with the list ... Number 4, listen to lots of tangos music all the time you can. This will help you build up, what I call, "tango attitude." And that "attitude" must be genuinely yours and will add to your appeal as a dance partner. It goes without saying that listening to music will also help you dance better to it. There is more but gotta stop at some point. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 19:23:20 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Are they having as much fun dancing this as I am watching???? Message-ID: <958638.80417.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Mario To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:01:47 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Are they having as much fun dancing this as I am watching???? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KJN1UKfMgI O.K. this is my last post of the day...but once again It is indeed a very nice dance and, in my opinion, it is not choreographed. And here is why I say that: all, or the great majority of it is "leadable," some sequences are messy, they know each other and have things in their own "bag of tricks" and so can quickly get into a practiced sequence on the spot. Incidentally, while I do like Javier generally (don't have an opinion about Andrea), for my taste, his upper body is too stiff at all times. He rarely turns his head in the direction of the step (as Gavito does -- or did, peace be upon him -- all the time, for example). This makes the dance robot-like - perfect in execution, but with very little expression. Again, just my own preference. ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From jayrabe at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:12:47 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:12:47 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Are they having as much fun dancing this as I am watching???? In-Reply-To: <958638.80417.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <958638.80417.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My 2c: Parts of it are clearly "choreographed" in the sense that they knew in advance exactly what they were going to do at a certain point in the music. Specifically, her opening embellishments at 0:09 (which by definition are un-lead, but which fit the music too perfectly to be un-planned), and his leg swing at 1:53. Otherwise I agree with Dubravko: they know each other very well, they know the music very well, and two iterations of the same song might look nearly identical. This however does not constitute choreography IMO. On another note, however, notice that he almost always steps heel first when he is just walking forward. :-) J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From alohatango2002 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 22:42:32 2008 From: alohatango2002 at yahoo.com (Ernest Williams) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Not Leading vs Leading crosses Message-ID: <400514.29108.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Check out this video that describes aspects of leading various types of crosses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlrxF2DQTWE From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:05:57 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:05:57 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] walking to the cross - videos Message-ID: Ernest Williams provided videos where the Cross is being taught. I saw two videos, one "aloha tango" and the other Oscar Casas "the Cross". In the first one the leader causes the woman to tilt the torso in order to exaggerate a movement of the hip that actually normally happens as she walks back. This was explained in detail in my prior note. IMO this is not necessary because the shifting of the torso causes the woman to lose her alignment, that she has to recuperate after she crosses. In the second one, Oscar Casas shows the correct way to the cross. With the woman well framed with him, she does the cross by default, when he does not wish that she crosses then he blocks her left foot with his right one, this removes her option to cross and she steps back. The first video "Aloha Tango" shows the lead to the cross that we normally use in milonga. In milonga we have to lead the cross because it has many figures where the cross is not done. Thank you Ernest for two good examples of what we had been discussing. Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina. _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 3 04:25:57 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:25:57 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] walking to the cross - videos Message-ID: <50742.1207211157@tangohk.com> Sergio, I've always enjoyed reading you posts over the years and have always agreed with what you had to say. You've written before about the cross and I agreed with your comments then because they matched exactly how I was taught Tango by Argentineans. But, as the years pass and I learn more, I've come to realise that it's just not that simple. To illusrtrate what I have to say I previously commented on this video posted by Mario. No one responded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related The first figure clearly shows Dani 'El Flaco' Garcia leading Maria Plazaola to the position where you say she should "cross by default". But it doesn't happen and Dani leads a Back Cross. Nancy has also commented that many leaders in Buenos Aires do not lead the cross from this position and, because of that, she does not auto-cross. If the lady crosses by default, it takes away any other option from the man. Why should that be? Sorry Sergio but, IMHO, I now think that what you say about the cross by default is not the best way to dance the cross. IMO, it should always be led by the man and that's the way it should be taught. Keith, HK On Thu Apr 3 12:05 , Sergio Vandekier sent: crosses. > >In the second one, Oscar Casas shows the correct way to the cross. >With the woman well framed with him, she does the cross by default, when he does not wish that she >crosses then he blocks her left foot with his right one, this removes her option to cross and she steps back. > From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 3 04:33:49 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:33:49 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? Message-ID: <50786.1207211629@tangohk.com> Nancy, now you sound like a guy hahahaha. I call this Plan B, but you gals aren't supposed to know about it. You're supposed to think that everything went perfectly, with no missed leads :-) Keith, HK On Thu Apr 3 5:42 , NANCY sent: > >and be prepared to compensate if she does not >do what you expect. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 06:35:38 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 03:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <60273.99066.qm@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Chris, next time, pay attention to what a completely novice woman actually does and you'll see for yourself. Personally, I think it's better to learn from real life experiences than assumptions. Oh, and don't say a word to her, just lead her. Trini de Pittsburgh --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > > Let's use some common sense, here. > > Well, since you insist, Trini... > > > I've never met a woman who hasn't needed to be > corrected on her cross > > or has had to be instructed that she needs to stay on > one foot after > > pivoting. > > The main reason such instructors never meet those dancers > is simply that > those dancers stay well away from such instructors' > classes. > > And with good cause. > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 3 10:16:43 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:16:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] walking to the cross - videos Message-ID: <52210.1207232203@tangohk.com> Sergio, I've always enjoyed reading you posts over the years and have always agreed with what you had to say. You've written before about the cross and I agreed with your comments then because they matched exactly how I was taught Tango by Argentiines. But, as the years pass and I learn more, I've come to realise that it's just not that simple. To illusrtrate what I have to say I previously commented on this video posted by Mario. No one responded. http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related The first figure clearly shows Dani 'El Flaco' Garcia leading Maria Plazaola to the position where you say she should "cross by default". But it doesn't happen and Dani leads a Back Cross. Nancy has also commented that many leaders in Buenos Aires do not lead the cross from this position and, because of that, she does not auto-cross. If the lady crosses by default, it takes away any other option from the man. Why should that be? Sorry Sergio but, IMHO, I now think that what you say about the cross by default is not the best way to dance the cross. IMO, it should always be led by the man and that's the way it should be taught. Keith, HK On Thu Apr 3 12:05 , Sergio Vandekier sent: > >In the second one, Oscar Casas shows the correct way to the cross. >With the woman well framed with him, she does the cross by default, when he does not wish that she >crosses then he blocks her left foot with his right one, this removes her option to cross and she steps back. > From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Thu Apr 3 11:55:18 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 00:55:18 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <005e01c89512$c7254e80$44203e43@michaelditkoff> References: <786113.70032.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <005e01c89512$c7254e80$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <3E77B93E9212448FA332A53242EBEE13@homePC> Michael, you have to understand that that Mario is obviously not leading at all. This looks to me like it is a similar situation to when some beginners or eternal intermediates at the milonga are staring at my feet and those of my partner, trying to figure out how we do this. The feet are not the point ! You cannot see fom the outside what is happebning gbetween the partners communicationwise unless you know something about leading and following already. And Mario obviously doesn't. Come away from the computer, Mario, and spend some money on a proper teacher. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Thu Apr 3 13:18:46 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 02:18:46 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Where are her feet and where is her weight? In-Reply-To: <50786.1207211629@tangohk.com> References: <50786.1207211629@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <829BEBB661D44A4C979547EFD85035D8@homePC> Oh, we notice that! A good leader invites, and then follows her and if she goes somewhere else or decides to insert her firulete first while taking her time, there comes his Plan B... For us women it has to be Plan B quite often if we don't know the man too well. And sometimes the really good dancers love to surprise me, and I enjoy that, too. > Nancy, now you sound like a guy hahahaha. I call this Plan B, > but you gals aren't supposed to know about it. You're supposed > to think that everything went perfectly, with no missed leads :-) > > Keith, HK > > > On Thu Apr 3 5:42 , NANCY sent: > >> >>and be prepared to compensate if she does not >>do what you expect. > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 13:49:15 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Why do you dance ? Message-ID: <66575.40102.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Numver one: The feel of the woman in my arms Number two: The music Number three: The thrill of us flying together without thought and the suprise when we realize what we have just done. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tangopeer at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 14:56:10 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] I applaud you, Mario In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <678725.97328.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Was: Too many videos spoil the dance. Mario, I've told you this privately. I guess it might be appropriate to say this publically. I applaud you for driving this group by giving them some very interesting questions and observations. You are learning, not just because you are watching all of those videos, but also because you have all of these online instructors answering your questions ... for FREE!!! And, I bet many members on this list (including those answering your questions) are learning a lot. Don't stop watching those videos! It definitely is NOT a "VERY serious mistake"! I, for one, am jealous that you have the time, energy and healthy feet to do all that you are doing. Once in a while, Mario gets beat down (a little or a lot) by some responses. I wonder, for Mario's sake .... EVERYONE OUT THERE ... DON'T YOU AGREE THAT MARIO IS MAKING THIS LIST MORE USEFUL AND IS, PROBABLY, LEARNING A LOT FROM THOSE VIDEOS (ESPECIALLY, GIVEN THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE MANY (OR ANY?) LOCAL TEACHERS AVAILABLE? Again, I applaud you, Mario!!! --- Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > sopelote wrote (among other things): > > <<>> > > Talk about a subject that won't die, or better yet, > advice that is never > heeded. It is a very serious mistake to attempt to > learn tango from videos > unless you are already a VERY advanced dancer. > Many beginners continue to do this > and continue to wonder why it doesn't work when they > do it. > I think what happened to you was just a good example > of why you > shouldn't...and where did you get the notion that > making your chest concave would somehow > make you dance better?!? No wonder your followers > can't follow you. Apilado > has nothing to do with it. Stop watching so many > videos and learn from a real > person, or better yet, practice what you already > know (or don't know well) > because you still seem to have too many basic > problems yet. > > Charles > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From tangopeer at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 15:17:53 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <786113.70032.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <808021.99775.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mario wrote: ... do I have to know exactly what the follow is to do at all times? Is there no 'creative space' where the lead can open his stance and just let the follow invent?? I read that you received some good responses. I haven't read through those, yet. First, I just wanted to say that your subject "Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ???" makes me want to give the simple response: You suggest where she is going to step and, as she moves through the step, she is using her follower's technique and musicality to do her movement. So, while you invented what you want to do, every woman is inventing right back at you. Second, regarding you question, "Is there no 'creative space' where the lead can open his stance and just let the follow invent??", there IS creative space. Here is an example that I, actually, don't like, but, extremely good followers are doing it, so it does exist. Occassionally, I have led very advanced followers who, when I lead a boleo, for example, pretty much, take over the dance. No room for conversation. I could eat a sandwich while waiting for them to finish. (Yes, and exaduration. But, you get my point.) Now, I prefer that the dance be about the connection. However, those women are actually quite good at show tango. So, there you have it. There IS creative space and some followers use it quite well. ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 15:29:48 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Astrid, it seems like you love to start fights and make people look stupid. I never looked at my feet while dancing not even once in my life ..but you insist on portraying me that way...fuk you, I won't be posting here again. the last class I took in December was billed as a class to learn; floor navigation, musicality and connectivity....it cost me $100 and the teacher's idea of musicality was to call out the steps during a song and everyone perform them basic 8, ocho cortado, back ocho, etc etc... in open embrace... that was THE last class I'll ever take from an open embrace teacher..that's all that's here...screw you --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 16:12:30 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] tangopeer@yahoo.com Message-ID: <366475.40458.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Tom, Thanks for the support. Astrid's humilating post mentioning me by name, wigged me out.. maybe it doesn't look that bad in hindsite but when I read it I saw red. I'm not going to be posting on Tango L again..I won't even lurk and read in the future...I think that the list is selecting it's membership by whom can stand the withering ridicule of the academic types that throw their superior humiliating barbs at people...why else are most people afraid to post there, anything that could be turned against them...screw them, I'm done. I won't be anybody's unpaid clown. Anyway, I've enjoyed my exchange with you and several others on list. I hope that we can meet again in some other non academic forum. sincerely, mario --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 3 16:53:28 2008 From: bruce at cenderis.demon.co.uk (Bruce Stephens) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:53:28 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (Mario's message of "Thu\, 3 Apr 2008 12\:29\:48 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <878wzu1wzb.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk> Mario writes: [...] > the last class I took in December was billed as a class to learn; > floor navigation, musicality and connectivity....it cost me $100 > and the teacher's idea of musicality was to call out the steps > during a song and everyone perform them basic 8, ocho cortado, > back ocho, etc etc... in open embrace... that was THE last class > I'll ever take from an open embrace teacher.. OK, so that class was an expensive disappointment. So don't do that. Instead, investigate local teachers who give private lessons (they may not give classes at all, I guess). Find out which milongas they go to, and watch them dance. Try and find current or former customers and see how *they* dance. Then buy a private lesson with a competent teacher (presuming you can find one). Quite likely that won't cost $100 (I'm guessing---maybe it will in your area), but regardless it ought to be worth several $100 classes. And it'll just be you, so you and the teacher will be much freer to negotiate what you want to get out of the lesson and what's likely to work. [...] From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 17:02:17 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Walking to the cross Message-ID: Hi Keith, The object of your last note is to assert that the cross should "always be led" . You provided the following elements: Dani "El flaco" - "You say: The first figure clearly shows Dani 'El Flaco' Garcia leading Maria Plazaola to the position where I say she should "cross by default". But it doesn't happen and Dani leads a Back Cross...then you add "Sorry Sergio but, IMHO, I now think that what you say about the cross by default is not the best way to dance the cross. IMO, it should always be led by the man and that's the way it should be taught." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related (Dani "el flaco"). Earlier I had provided the following videos Ernest williams the cross http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlrxF2DQTWE (he actively leads the cross), he is an excellent dancer. Oscar Casas The Cross http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKnh_1KR0A (he allows the cross to happen or prevents it from happening) he is also an excellent dancer. I welcome your comments, as I think that they are very interesting and well informed. The difference between you and me seem to be that you think that the cross should "always be led", and I said that IMO most people "do not lead the cross" . This does not mean that they do not have absolute control of the dance, they allow the cross to occur by default or else they prevent the cross from happening. Dani, "El flaco" whom I have seen dancing...like many other milongueros can dance in many different ways, in the video you provided he starts with a salida without the cross, but later on, he dances like Oscar casas and the rest of us: ***He allows the cross to happen or prevents it from happening by placing his foot close to her foot, so that she cannot cross. Nancy also said that many milongueros dance without ever allowing the cross. This is true. Please review Oscar Casas video . Compare this with the one provided by Ernest where he "actively induces the cross" and then decide the way you wish to dance and teach. All styles are valid and have merits. Summary: By allowing the cross to occur or not to occur you keep control of the dance and have access to all the possibilities, the lady executes the cross in perfect frame, her shoulders aligned with those of her partner. She does not lose alignment with the line of dance, her back is parallel to the back wall as she executes the cross. IMO a more elegant form of dancing. Best regards, Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51N1653A From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Thu Apr 3 17:10:18 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:10:18 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <20080403210631.03F72235ED5@p3fed1.frb.org> "Tango for Her" wrote: >Occassionally, I have led very advanced followers who, >when I lead a boleo, for example, pretty much, take >over the dance. No room for conversation. You mean there's no longer room for the conversation that you direct. An exchange of lead and follow, with or without a change of embrace, is a different way to converse--one that is less dominated by the so-called leader. previously Mario wrote: >[D]o I have to know exactly what the follow is to do >at all times? Is there no 'creative space' where the >lead can open his stance and just let the follow invent? Yes. Such a space does exist. You have to find it between yourself and your partner by listening to the her movements and creating space in the lead. One natural place for such a space is in turns. The direction of the conversation typically must be handed to the woman during turns. Yes, she can be led into turns, but she is mostly responible for the the timing of the turn. This responsibility creates an easy opportunity for the woman to freeze the man to do embellishments, change direction of the turn, or even shift the man's weight. Of course, the latter requires that the woman have some knowledge of the moves. By the way, I prefer to identify the two roles in tango dancing as the man and the woman--not the leader and the follower. Renaming the roles leader and follower (or lead and follow) may create an appearance of gender neutrality, but it also tends to put tighter constraints on what might be expected from the two dancers. For some related thoughts see Richard Powers' writing on ultimate partnering http://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) From tangopeer at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 17:33:40 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <20080403210631.03F72235ED5@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <409424.46637.qm@web52211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Stephen, I wasn't describing an exchange of lead and follow. I might be taking it wrong. But, it almost seems as though you are lashing out calling me a dominating leader. Please, read my post for what it was. A clear cut example. Don't twist what I was saying. I was describing that I lead a boleo and seconds go by, many, many seconds, while she does her embellishment. During that time, nothing was led. No conversation was taking place. She, simply, created the space to invent. Exactly what Mario was asking about. I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. I said I don't prefer it. Again, I was giving an example where the follower takes/makes the room to invent. The example was from a couple of occassions of dancing with a couple of women that went on to do quite well at show tango. I'm proud of them. And, I wasn't talking about "dominating". That's a different story, a different thread. And, for the record, there are a lot of little conversations that go on that are, more or less, led by my followers. And, I LOVE them! Oh, and, it definitely wasn't exhange of lead and follow. She wasn't leading me to do anything. --- Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org wrote: > "Tango for Her" wrote: > >Occassionally, I have led very advanced followers > who, > >when I lead a boleo, for example, pretty much, take > >over the dance. No room for conversation. > > You mean there's no longer room for the conversation > that you direct. An > exchange of lead and follow, with or without a > change of embrace, is a > different way to converse--one that is less > dominated by the so-called > leader. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Thu Apr 3 18:40:13 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:40:13 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <20080403223625.B5B9A235F2A@p3fed1.frb.org> Tango for Her wrote: >Please, read my post for what it was. What stood out to me in the earlier posting was a few comments I've strung together to read: "Here is an example that I, actually, don't like, ... advanced followers who ... when I lead a boleo, for example, pretty much, take over the dance. No room for conversation. I could eat a sandwich while waiting for them to finish." As I read these comments and the posting that responded to my comments, the writer wants the woman's contribution limited to exchanges within a framework that he defines. Going as far as actually yielding the lead, particularly if it seems involuntary, would go beyond his comfort zone. Otherwise, I would agree that Tango for Her's earlier posting conveyed some information about the space in which a woman has the opportunity to create her own movements within tango, but the only example provided was one in which the woman hijacked the lead, which Tango for Her doesn't prefer. In the newer posting: >There are a lot of little conversations >that go on that are, more or less, led >by my followers. And, I LOVE them! If the posting is to be about "... every woman is inventing right back at you " and the spaces in which the woman has the opportunity to create her own movements (and dare we say steps), let's hear about these little conversations... and how the woman is inventing or at least free to invent. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Apr 3 19:45:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 00:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: <60273.99066.qm@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I've never met a woman who hasn't needed to be corrected on her cross > pay attention to what a completely novice woman actually does > and you'll see for yourself. That attention finds typically the complete novice hereabouts doesn't make the cross. This is no problem - she and I make whatever steps do come to us. I do not categorise her as "a woman who needs to be corrected on her cross". Nor does any other respectful guy I know. We leave that job to the few people in the business of inventing fault in the dancing of others so to sell to them the so-called corrections. -- Chris From jpsighe at sighes.com Thu Apr 3 22:51:04 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 19:51:04 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Not Leading vs Leading crosses References: <400514.29108.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023701c895fe$bb99cdb0$020fa8c0@Desktop1> Good going Ernest!!! I applaud the thinking. I am (and have been), with my partner, thinking exactly (almost) in the same direction. My theory has been that there is no law that says the Cruzada has to ONLY be executed from the left side. I am very happy to see that you are exploring that side. You see, that is exactly what probably happened in the years passed where the Black folks in Argentina were stepping in that Circle (they called "Tango") and doing their thing, inventing , daring to come up with new concepts. They didn't have Youtube on their side to help record things properly. Today, we are blessed with the Internet. Let's keep the tradition of expanding the dance happening. Candombe !!! Jean-Pierre Sighe --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 7:42 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Not Leading vs Leading crosses > Check out this video that describes aspects of leading various types of > crosses. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlrxF2DQTWE > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From febaker at buffalotango.com Fri Apr 4 00:42:51 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:42:51 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:29:48 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Thanks Astrid, it seems like you love to start fights and make people look stupid. > I never looked at my feet while dancing not even once in my life ..but you insist > on portraying me that way...fuk you, I won't be posting here again. > the last class I took in December was billed as a class to learn; > floor navigation, musicality and connectivity....it cost me $100 and the teacher's > idea of musicality was to call out the steps during a song and everyone perform them > basic 8, ocho cortado, back ocho, etc etc... in open embrace... that was THE last > class I'll ever take from an open embrace teacher..that's all that's here...screw you Mario... It does seem Tango-L is infested with 'bubbles'.., doesn't it. :-) Many manly women and womanly men who only admit to what they want to see be. Mostly 'P/I' pushers and not true Tango dancers. Tango itself seems to be going down the tubes... It has or is already very mechanized. Those coming back from Bs.As. have a 'glow' that is quickly lost. People see it and wonder about it here.. But then others try to distract from the real reason. Themselves..! It has been admitted that Tango is taught very wrong today, in non-productive ways, because that is the way the instructors can make more money. Apparently 'Salsa' would be taught in place of Tango if that's all they knew. The dance is being corrupted by people who want to do it the quick and easy way. To latch onto every dolt never-to-learn student with $15 in his pocket, for as long as they can... Now I'll get a complaint that I have something against Salsa. eh? Ha! That's the way it goes. Skip the real point and attack the use of a 'term'... Smoke everything and back it up with mirrors. The *world* knows there is an 'auto' cross taught. A pattern. A contrary convention... One has said they knew it to be called a RULE. Another that it's taught in Bs.As. today. And yet for some reason there are those who refuse to admit they even know of it? All I get from that is that they are totally out of touch with reality. Apparently they have studied by themselves in a very small environment where Tango is being done absolutely *perfect*.., according to them. Without the necessity of their actually reading, hearing, or understanding any of the people who have been talking here on Tango-L for years and years. As in all kinds of situations, it's best to ignore the prima donna mentalities and go on with 'constructive' thought. Either asking or giving, as you have been doing rather well. Not to mention many others here. I work to that end for the most part... Actually I find that sticking pins into sacred cows is the best way to learn. :-) So it's only natural I get many jibes back. However it's best to stop with them when they crack and start to babble. :-) Just go with the original style, intent and reasons for Tango. It has lasted this long because of what it is, not what many in today's prissy society want to make it. They consider it not a nice dance... In fact I'd bet money that some of the most vocals on changing it are Tango frigid. Never having had a Tangorgasm. No zen, trance, zone or connection at all... To them it's the look that counts. Faking it.., iow. Today's tango should probably be renamed. Something like 'Tangone'? So please, do not be driven off by the uncouth. You will be causing Tango L to be a little bit worse. Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From keith at tangohk.com Fri Apr 4 00:21:25 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:21:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? Message-ID: <49744.1207282885@tangohk.com> Mario, You've completely mis-read Astrid's post. She never said you look at your feet or your partner's feet. She said ... Quote "This looks to me like it is a similar situation to when some beginners or eternal intermediates at the milonga are staring at my feet and those of my partner, trying to figure out how we do this. Unquote This is a common mistake of many, especially in classes - the students only look at the teachers' feet, whereas all the important stuff is happening at the point of connection. On YouTube, very often you can see the feet OK but you can't see what the man does to make the lady's feet do what they do. As for your swearing at a lady ... well, I guess we had different upbringings. Keith, HK On Fri Apr 4 3:29 , Mario sent: >Thanks Astrid, it seems like you love to start fights and make people look stupid. > I never looked at my feet while dancing not even once in my life ..but you insist > on portraying me that way From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 03:33:13 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 00:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] estilos de abrazas Message-ID: <24070.5542.qm@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Robin asks; how about the placement of the women's arms and head? Hi Robin, and all, I've watched this trend with interest the last couple of years, and asked around about it. I've been told that it's "just a style", and also "more freeing" for the woman. My own observations seem to indicate that these "holds" (as you describe them, Robin!), are used almost exclusively by those interested slightly more in the "exhibition" aspect of tango; those who dance more open or "V", and those that alternate between close and open embrace. The "draping of the arm"; can be used in close embrace, and even in "milonguero", and is many times accompanied by open, spread fingers. I find it inelegant to watch, and uncomfortable to feel. My teacher cautioned followers seven years ago (way before this "trend"), to avoid the "gecko paw" look of splayed fingers. I can dance with women who do this, but I don't go searching them out for a second tanda. It's ugly, and it sucks, when compared against that beautiful connection when our hearts are focussed. The "woman's left arm very low"; even more obviously for open moves, etc, where this position does not constrict leader's right arm/shoulder. This embrace does not work well at all except in very open, very physical movements. I will not dance at all with a woman who hampers my abilities and efforts in this manner (since I dance only super-close!) As far as men who insist on follower's head direction? I've never seen, or heard that a man would insist on woman turning her head like this. I will not dictate to them, and I'll probably finish the tanda, but for a woman to hold her head anywhere but naturally over her shoulders, looking over my right shoulder, is nearly universally unbearable. For a woman to hold her head to her right is almost always extremely uncomfortable. I've danced with a couple of womwn over the last century who can pull it off. All head contact should be incidental, and gentle; temple to temple, or cheek to cheek, but with absolutely no focus of lead or follow through cranium. And as an aside, in addressing the recent debate regarding whether crosses are lead, or automatic, or not lead, or not automatic, etc, etc....please let it be known: CROSSES ARE LEAD. PERIOD. An "automatic cross" is a MISTAKE, which can be caused by the leader, or the follower, but it is a "MISTAKE". "La Cruzada" is a move that is lead; it is not "automatic". THERE IS NO "AUTOMATIC" IN ARGENTINE TANGO!!!! See you in Atlanta, later on! Michael Robin wrote..... Especially interested in two "holds" that I observe these days in the milongas in BA. First the draping of the woman's left arm down across the shoulder of the man with elbow pointed at the ceiling and the other with the woman's left arm placed very low, almost around the man's waist. And then there are the men who insist that the woman turn her head to the right. Robin Tara Tara Tango Shoes From desdelasnubes at web.de Fri Apr 4 05:50:05 2008 From: desdelasnubes at web.de (desdelasnubes@web.de) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:50:05 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] =?iso-8859-15?q?Do_I_have_to_invent_every_step_of_the_d?= =?iso-8859-15?q?ance=2C_even_her=27s_=3F=3F=3F?= Message-ID: <556061127@web.de> > As for your swearing at a lady ... well, I guess we had different upbringings. > Keith, thank you very much for this reminder on respectful behaviour. Seems as if such a reminder is needed, because the swearing seems to have been overlooked by previous posters. So, dear gentlemen, if you easily lose your temper when confronted with an opinion that is contrary to yours, please take more time to think before pressing the button. Let's not forget that respect is crucial - in life as in the dancing. Anna _________________________________________________________________________ In 5 Schritten zur eigenen Homepage. Jetzt Domain sichern und gestalten! Nur 3,99 EUR/Monat! http://www.maildomain.web.de/?mc=021114 From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 06:16:04 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 03:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <755113.11013.qm@web55310.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > That attention finds typically the complete novice > hereabouts doesn't make > the cross. This is no problem - she and I make whatever > steps do come to us. That's fine, but don't just don't call it the cross when it isn't. Otherwise, it's disrepectful to her and pandering to her. Women aren't stupid. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From tangopeer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 08:54:36 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 05:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Do I have to invent every step of the dance, even her's ??? In-Reply-To: <556061127@web.de> Message-ID: <143581.44135.qm@web52202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Wow! I must say, with all the low-ball trashing that goes on here, you guys are picking Mario apart? Mario? I don't blame him. I would say that I probably had the same upbringing as Mario. Be nice unto others. He seems to be one of the few frequent posters to hold himself to that standard. Go ahead and team up against Mario. I still applaud him, because he seems to be THE BEST AND NICEST PERSON ON HERE! So, he lost his temper and swore. That's nothing compared to the misquotes and just plain fabrication of stories just to make someone look bad. THAT GOES ON ALMOST DAILY! Mario was just ticked off at some of the low-ball hate that goes on. Get off his case!!!! I'm sure someone is going to write back and slam me, because, as Mario was saying, that's what goes on here. Can't anyone find kind words to say to Mario? Only one other poster wrote back with kind words for him. That's pathetic considering how much he has done for all of you! Again, thank you, Mario, for who you are and what you have done for us! *** What? Am I wrong? Can you find a nicer frequent-poster on this list? *** --- desdelasnubes at web.de wrote: > > > As for your swearing at a lady ... well, I guess > we had different upbringings. > > > > Keith, > > thank you very much for this reminder on respectful > behaviour. > Seems as if such a reminder is needed, because the > swearing > seems to have been overlooked by previous posters. > > So, dear gentlemen, if you easily lose your temper > when confronted with an opinion that is contrary to > yours, > please take more time to think before pressing the > button. > > Let's not forget that respect is crucial - in life > as in the dancing. > > Anna > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 10:15:25 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:15:25 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] The Cross - final note Message-ID: Last night I went to dance to L'Alliance Francaise, here in Mar del Plata. Most of the dancers there were trained by Nicolas and Anastasia, social and stage dancers. (they have a web page, if you wish to read about them). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVWnioLGUpU They had a tango show at the Opera Theater that lasted all summer long. I have taken some training in stage dancing from them. They step heel first and dance without doing the cross, they also promote the use of rather short steps. They claim that the original tango did not have the cross. Nicolas does not know when the cross became part of the tango choreography. I am one of those that like to learn everything about tango, over the years I have been instructed in the different styles of tango. Many great tango dancers and instructors that were my teachers, teach the woman to cross by default whenever the man walks to her right. I remember (in this respect)Nito and Elba, Osvaldo Zotto and Mora, Carlos copes, Lorena, Cecilia, Carlos Copello, Jose vazquez (Lampazo), Mingo Pugliese, Jorge Firpo y Aurora and many others that I have known over the years. We all lead the cross in Milonga. Tango changes all the time depending on who the instructor is. The leading of the cross discussion appeared not too long ago. I run into this type of instruction very seldom. ***The important thing is to know that there are many ways to dance tango and they are all correct. The more ignorant the dancer is, the more dogmatic he becomes. The worst ones are those that have only been exposed to one way of dancing tango and therefore believe that that is the universe of tango. Have a nice day, lead the cross whenever you wish, ...or not. :)) Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 10:51:47 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Apology Message-ID: <225659.30354.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, Astrid's post reads differently this morning. What she is saying about the feet not being the only thing happening makes a lot of sense. And I wish that she hadn't kept introducing my name as an example of a dummie. It just was the wrong thing for me to be reading at that moment and I went ballistic. So, my apologies to the list and to Astrid. I won't be posting as I did in the past but I will check in from time to time. thanks --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Fri Apr 4 11:14:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> Message-ID: > No one can actually tell the difference between a Strad and a well-made > copy. It's easy - just check the price tag! ;) Did you know that actually Stradivarius secretly made thousands of violins, but passed most of them off to the market as well-made but cheap copies, so to maintain the high prices of the ones he made to order for rich clients? The above, whilst not necessarily true ;) nevertheless may be a useful metaphor in the world of tango! -- Chris From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 11:25:35 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Apology Message-ID: <266602.74499.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mario: ? Yes, indeed. Your post was a real shocker. But, why would you?stop posting? I?personally welcome your probing questions, your enthusiasm, and yes, you naivete at times. Just leave out the foul language and we are okay. ? There is another point to be made about Astrid's observation, however. Not only is it that the feet are not "the only thing happening," but they are indeed happening (in social dancing) only to facilitate something else, which is the bodies which dance and move about - it is not the other way around. Consequently by focusing on the footwork, one who is not experienced can easily miss the whole dance. ? When I teach and demonstrate something, either with a group or individually,?I insist on folks paying attention to my torso (including my embrace) and my hipwork (is there such a word? like footwork?) and only secondarily?to my legs and feet ? ...dubravko?=================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== ----- Original Message ---- From: Mario To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 10:51:47 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Apology Yes, Astrid's post reads differently this morning. What she is saying about ? the feet not being the only thing happening makes a lot of sense. ? And I wish that she hadn't kept introducing my name as an example of a dummie. ? It just was the wrong thing for me to be reading at that moment and I went ? ballistic.? ? So, my apologies to the list and to Astrid. ? I won't be posting as I did in the past but I will check in from time to time. thanks ? ? ? --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tangopeer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 11:55:54 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Torso In-Reply-To: <266602.74499.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <256692.13649.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: > ? > When I teach and demonstrate something, either with > a group or individually,?I insist on folks paying > attention to my torso (including my embrace) and my > hipwork (is there such a word? like footwork?) and > only secondarily?to my legs and feet > ? That is SO true. Back when I took a lot of classes, I noticed something that helped a lot. Sometimes, the teacher would have us follower her down the floor, mimmicking her movements, her steps. If I watched her feet, just like everyone else, I could not react quickly enough and would make a lot of mistakes. If I watched her hips, I rarely made mistakes. She was moving from her center. Nice! Lesson learned! She was doing these cool little step sequences and embellishments to the music. Watching her hips allowed me to experience some really cool musicality. ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From Crrtango at aol.com Fri Apr 4 12:38:08 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:38:08 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] foot in mouth disease Message-ID: dubravko wrote: <<<>>> Actually maybe not posting and just reading for a while would be better for Mario. Perhaps a good lesson for him and the other who was recently kicked off the list. Those of us on the list for a long time have heard these same arguments and opinions repeated ad nauseum. That is fine and necessary, but too often the most vehement, intense and argumentative are the ones by new dancers and beginners whose rhetoric far outweighs their actual experience. Even worse, they may be, and often are, wrong. Many advanced and sophisticated dancers read this list but don't post, in part because of these kinds of responses. When you start raising the volume of your post and expressing that level of anger, not to mention the length of some of the posts, it is time to stop talking and go back to practicing your dancing. We all become very excited about tango but don't confuse that excitement with knowledge and understanding of the dance. Be humble and make a statement with your dancing. Your feet look better on the floor than in your mouth. Off to Buenos Aires on Monday, Cheers, Charles ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 12:43:57 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:43:57 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Not Leading vs Leading crosses - reverse crosses In-Reply-To: <023701c895fe$bb99cdb0$020fa8c0@Desktop1> References: <400514.29108.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <023701c895fe$bb99cdb0$020fa8c0@Desktop1> Message-ID: Some years ago I took an eye-opening class from (much-maligned-on-this-list) Metin Yazir. He taught the 8CB - in reverse. That is, starting with leader L back, R side, etc, culminating in the follower crossing her R in front of her L as Ernest showed. The principle his class and subsequent "mirror image" investigations has shown me is that steps work better or worse on one side or the other as a direct consequence of the slight asymmetry of the embrace. That is, even the most parallel milonguero embrace still will have an ever so slight "V," with the leader's left side slightly more open than the right, and with the follower ever so slightly shifted to his right in his embrace. Studying in this way, trying to do mirror-image versions of every step your learn, will show you the subtle adjustments to the embrace/frame and the specific movements of the torso that that must be made in order to make the step work smoothly (or at all). I highly recommend it. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51N1653A From railogic at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 12:53:19 2008 From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 09:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Walking to the cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <717420.93834.qm@web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ernest williams video does give an excellent insight to the "cross", if it is lead or not. As you can see the lead is essentially turning women's right shoulder away sightly, then heading straight. Now, when the man walks on the right of women this happens naturally("automatically"), NO effort is required...just try it with ANY good dancer. However conscious effort is required to prevent crossing. This is is true no matter which camp you belong to. In close embrace lead is not obvious, but in Dani's video you can see he stubbornly retains his shoulder position (as if he was directly in front of her) while walking on the right of women preventing the cross. I guess leaders from opposing 'lead or not to lead cross' camps do the exactly the same thing...IMO...may be some exagarate the "lead" a bit more. Cheers IL Sergio Vandekier wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErmwG5IIe6k&feature=related (Dani "el flaco"). Earlier I had provided the following videos Ernest williams the cross http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlrxF2DQTWE (he actively leads the cross), he is an excellent dancer. Dani, "El flaco" whom I have seen dancing...like many other milongueros can dance in many different ways, in the video you provided he starts with a salida without the cross, but later on, he dances like Oscar casas and the rest of us: From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 4 12:56:17 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 01:56:17 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <33985834DD08464C9B0F13B20392D4AB@homePC> Ok, now. To make all this a little more interesting, I suggest, we change the metaphor. If some self appointed "list-reformers" or revolutionaries or whatever they believe themselves to be keep insistinng on comparing women made of flesh and blood to wooden boxes, how about calling them a "coffin" instead. A coffin and it's carrier, directing the lady's spirit inside that box to the graveyard in the hall of famed feminists. Give this tiresome discussion a new direction and see if I might start reading this stuff again. So, we have the carrier and his beloved coffin, moving her/it determinedly in the direction he wants her to go, whether she likes it or not, as this is not really the point here anyway, right? Astrid, having reached a kind of gothic mood... From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:10:12 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:10:12 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] leading cruzada Message-ID: <85EA94D1-18D7-40D2-BF61-68B475414960@gmail.com> This idea of "led" versus "automatic" crossing is a problematic dichotomy that leads to a lot of misunderstaning in tango dancing, in my opinion. I have seen couples at classes and practicas debating why the cross did not happen, with the woman telling the man to push her with his arm, or to twist his torso, or to do other (IMO) superfluous things. I have danced with some women who seem to refuse to cross unless I do something "extra" with my arm. I think that is because somewhere they heard "don't cross unless the man leads it." Then they think that "lead" means push with the arm or something. I guess people have different ideas of what "lead" means. In my view, if the man moves his body in a direction that takes the women into the crossing sequence, I would call that 'leading" the cross. He shouldn't need to do anything especially different with his arms or torso to guide the woman to crossing. The woman stays in front of the man. If she doesn't cross when he goes that way, the couple will feel that they are separating or going out of alignment. There should be no such thing as an "automatic" cross. "Automatic" would mean that the women just do a cross on their own as a memorized pattern. That's wrong. Women do not dance on their own. They dance with and in response to what the man is doing. If the man turns counter-clockwise and the woman walks around him, she will customarily walk with a crossing sequence, as has been described earlier. If the man walks on the outside right of the woman, she will customarily walk with a crossing sequence. If the man walks more in front of her, she will walk without crossing. If the man walks on her left in a typical closed embrace, she will _normally_ not cross. (As Jay just said, the asymmetry of the embrace works against the crossing sequence when walking on the woman's left.) These are conventions that women who know how to dance tango become accustomed to and internalize through experience. The man's body position and trajectory is what induces the woman's crossing sequence. If he stops moving, she will stop moving. If he changes direction, she will change direction. If he continues moving on a path to her cross, a woman (who knows how to dance tango and who has developed dance technique) will walk in a crossing sequence. ....... I remember sitting with a visiting teacher and watching a middle-aged Argentine couple dancing tango at a house party. The visiting teacher, commenting on how much he loved to watch people dance, pointed out to me that this coulple did not use the cross, and he asked me where they were from. The teacher said that he would bet that they are from outside Buenos Aires - that the crossing is not used so much in tango outside of Buenos Aires. We then asked the couple where they were from -- they had grown up and learned to dance in the interior, some place like Rosario, maybe (don't remember exactly). From tangopeer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 13:56:11 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] foot in mouth disease In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <851662.12358.qm@web52211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I receive insulting posts. Mario receives insulting posts. I see posts, all the time, that are insulting AND HAVE NO PLACE ON THIS LIST! So, Charles, and others who want to rank on Mario, re-read Charles' post and look in the mirror. Mario made a mistake. But, Mario doesn't deserve emails like Charles' email when it is other people who are provoking! Continuously throw rocks at a dog and when the dog finally snaps back at you, put him to sleep. Nice! Real nice! Take your foot out of your own mouth! I get privately praised by people all the time for being nice and taking your bull. People want constructive posts and applaud me (and, I am sure, others) for dealing with all of the provoking, insulting posts. So, sorry if I can't sit back and watch YOU punch and belittle Mario. Give me a break! Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house. Charles, take your own advise. Stop sending posts that belittle others. Do what I do, often. I'll write the post and email it to myself. I did that, yesterday, with an email that I was going to broadcast back to Stephen. I sent it to myself. Why? Because if I sent it to all of you, I would be doing what you do. Bringing down the level of quality on Tango-L. Don't you get it? Everytime you publicly scold someone, you make yourself look like, well, you have your blinders on, anyway. So, you won't understand. Man! I CANNOT believe that YOU would be telling the whole world that Mario needs to watch what he writes! YOU! You write some great posts. Why in the world are you "putting other people in their place" all the time? You don't carry any weight, in THAT area, with us! You are NOT the worst offender. But, YOU telling others not to be like Mario is pathetic. FURTHERMORE: Charles said: ... too often the most vehement, intense and argumentative are the ones by new dancers and beginners whose rhetoric far outweighs their actual experience. Even worse, they may be, and often are, wrong. Many advanced and sophisticated dancers read this list but don't post, in part because of these kinds of responses. PLEASE, allow me to inform you. People write to me, privately. When I ask why they don't post to the group, they say that they don't want to be bullied and scolded by, well, for example, you! Are you really trying to tell us that people don't post because of Mario? Look in the mirror! Your last email should be retracted! Mario is worth a lot more to this group than either you or me!!! Mario is a true leader! ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From Crrtango at aol.com Fri Apr 4 14:02:43 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:02:43 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Walking to the cross Message-ID: ? ? railogic wrote: <<>> I lead it and sometimes I don't lead it, so I am from both camps, but one way of preventing the follower from crossing is fairly simple and does not have to involve the upper body at all. I use my left foot to touch and slightly displace her left so that it cannot cross in front of the right, but passes it and keeps on walking in a straight line. Not so simple to explain but a very simple and useful step when in doubt, or otherwise. Charles ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 14:03:55 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 11:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] leading cruzada Message-ID: <924671.27458.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I actually think that?woman's cross with all the possiblities and variations?is the most beautiful and sensual of "steps." I love to dance with a woman who lets me completely guide her cross, including the degree of tiwst (if any -- prior, during and after crossing) and especially the speed of it and the timing of the weight transfer, pausing and the cadence. It is indeed a very sexy step. It reflects total communication and unity in diversity. Just look at all those various cross situations which Gavito and Marcela used to?create. I mean they all all so absolutely delicious, full of suspense, expectation,?and passion! ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From politas at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:38:29 2008 From: politas at gmail.com (Myk Dowling) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:38:29 +1100 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <33985834DD08464C9B0F13B20392D4AB@homePC> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> <33985834DD08464C9B0F13B20392D4AB@homePC> Message-ID: <47F683B5.5020505@gmail.com> Astrid wrote: > Ok, now. To make all this a little more interesting, I suggest, we change > the metaphor. Isn't that what I suggested with my Conductor/orchestra recommendation? I mean, if the guy really insists on using metaphors, it's a better one than, as you say, comparing women to wooden boxes. -- Myk Dowling From spatz at tangoDC.com Fri Apr 4 16:12:42 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:12:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <33985834DD08464C9B0F13B20392D4AB@homePC> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> <33985834DD08464C9B0F13B20392D4AB@homePC> Message-ID: <47F68BBA.4060305@tangoDC.com> Astrid wrote: > Ok, now. To make all this a little more interesting, I suggest, we change the metaphor [...] how about calling them a "coffin" instead. A coffin and it's carrier > This /is/ more interesting. I know a guy who says dancing with some women is like pushing furniture around... that's quite close, I think, to the situation of a coffin with only one pallbearer. Provided, of course, that the guy is already dressed in black. In any case, it's been my experience that musical instruments essentially play themselves. The musician is just there to help it happen and (except in the case of a piano) to bow with it. (Yet notice how so many pianists touch the piano as they bow... it ain't so they keep their balance, you know.) --- As follow-up to a long-forgotten other comment (of mine): I have never in my life as a native speaker of English heard the term 'chick' as a pejorative. It's a jive word for a cool or cute girl. Just FYI, my fellow fans of Lunfardo song. Jake From pkatz at trebnet.com Fri Apr 4 16:28:27 2008 From: pkatz at trebnet.com (Patricia Katz) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:28:27 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] "that insulting metaphor" Message-ID: <01a301c89692$7077cc30$6433e863@5a5a5899596a4bc> they could be called "pall bearers" or "frankensteins" in etc. but does name calling solve any problems? when criticizing it's better to be constructive. it's important to be careful when comparing anyone; furthermore it's better not to compare. "paradiso" a milonga every friday evg for over 10 years http://torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 16:35:28 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:35:28 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The Cross: Much ado about nothing Message-ID: First, the cross, like any other tango step, should be led. Tango wouldn't be an improvised dance if women did steps without being led. Oh, yes, women do steps without leading. Like boleos. A woman once told me that when I led her to do boleos, I pulled her off her axis. I told her I wasn't leading boleos. Then there are the 'enganches' that I never lead. Somehow some women find a way to incoporate these leg wraps into their dance when I least expect it. Ok, those are not the good followers and they are rare. Anyway, the cross. This horse has long been dead on Tango-L and yet people continue to beat it. Some say it is still moving ... not dead yet. The cross is overdone. This is probably the result of all of us having been indoctrinated into the 8-count basic in our tango formative years. It's a hard habit to break. FLASH - NEWS BULLETIN!! THE CROSS IS NOT USED MUCH IN BUENOS AIRES MILONGAS!! At least not the linear walk to the cross. The cross emanating from a sideways movement, e.g., the ocho cortado, that is seen a lot. Or maybe from a turn, e.g., a media vuelta can result in a cross when after a woman's forward walk on the left foot, there's a half turn pivot that results in a cross. One will occasionally see an exit from back ochos in a linear walk in crossed feet resulting in a cross. But the ad nauseum side step salida, man outside partner walk that in 3 steps results in a woman's cross (the backbone of the 8-count basic) - rarely. It's one way to identify a tourist. Maybe if we stopped doing the walk to the cross we'd stop arguing about it. Ron From martin at waxman.net Fri Apr 4 16:56:15 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:56:15 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] The cross -- another view Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404163102.01ea60d0@waxman.net> Argentine Tango is a partner dance -- it's the woman's dance too. There are those on the list who insist that every follower's movement in Argentine Tango is led by the leader, including the cross. If that is so, please explain to me how you lead embellishments or adornments by the follower? And, if you do not lead embellishments, but do lead the cross, what if the follower's embellishment is a crusada/a cross? As an example of embellishments (also known as: chiches, firuletes, adornos, ornaments, decorations, etc), and there are many among the tango videos on Youtube, see Jennifer Bratt's channel on embellishments: http://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus And, for those leaders who do not allow a follower pauses, or time, or space for an improvised, unled embellishment in their dance, I suggest you to learn to do this. It will add another dimension to your dance. Marty Waxman From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Fri Apr 4 17:03:56 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:03:56 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead Message-ID: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> In a recent post, someone seemed to comment favorably about a strong lead. Maybe I misunderstood what the person was trying to convey, but I think it is too easy to confuse strength for clarity. After dancing with Pablo Veron, a woman commented to me, "He didn't lead me to move. He just willed me." In observing what Pablo was doing and working on my own mechanics what I realized that clarity comes from leading with one's torso, and letting the arms and hands go along for a gentle ride. Strength has very little do with clarity. Too often I see men use their arm strength to pull the women through the movements that they actually haven't led very well with the movement of their torsos. With best regards, Steve de Tejas From spatz at tangoDC.com Fri Apr 4 17:30:11 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:30:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso (hips) In-Reply-To: <256692.13649.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <256692.13649.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47F69DE3.8090405@tangoDC.com> Tango For Her wrote: > --- Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: > >> When I teach and demonstrate something, either with >> a group or individually, I insist on folks paying >> attention to my torso [...] and my hipwork > That is SO true. Come on... this is soccer lesson #1. Don't watch the ball, watch the guy's navel. He can fake you out with everything except that. > Watching her hips allowed me to experience some really cool musicality. Not sure how you could see her hips while you're dancing with her, TFH, but... well, let's just hope it wasn't salsa musicality. Many a month ago, a very helpful woman posted a comment about how women need to develop a "cintura" for tango-- i.e., a waist. I.e., one that dissociates horizontally (like the lid of a jar), rather than vertically as in salsa (like a jacob's ladder toy). That cintura, I would argue, is definitive of tango style; and if this were impressed on more women, I think it would allow them to dance more comfortably, more effectively, and more creatively. They can depart from it later and add other elements as they please-- this should go without saying. But without that stylistic element in place first, and its centrality understood, a woman (unless she's Argentine-- perhaps) is likely to be dancing tango with "salsa hips" for a very long time. As someone else mentioned recently, tango is primarily a manner-- which I take to mean a certain style, a certain character. The woman's waist (and therefore her level hip movement) is, I believe, as fundamental to that character as the embrace is. I don't think it takes years to develop it (as was suggested by the woman I mention above), so long as someone just comes out and defines it from the start. (Note to Chris: This is not necessarily fault-finding. It is, for better or worse, the imposition of a style, the definition of an aesthetic.) As with any teaching in the arts, I'm sure people will disagree with this; but one is always free to reject or adapt anything. Whether that gets you anywhere is the question. Jake From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 4 18:19:23 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:19:23 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] foot in mouth disease In-Reply-To: <851662.12358.qm@web52211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <851662.12358.qm@web52211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <117969F52C2C47AD8AB8E725AACA4DAE@homePC> > Charles, take your own advise. Stop sending posts > that belittle others. Do what I do, often. I'll > write the post and email it to myself. I did that, > yesterday, with an email that I was going to broadcast > back to Stephen. I sent it to myself. Why? Because > if I sent it to all of you, I would be doing what you > do. Bringing down the level of quality on Tango-L. > > You write some great posts. Why in the world are you > "putting other people in their place" all the time? > You don't carry any weight, in THAT area, with us! > Mario is worth a lot more to this group than either > you or me!!! Mario is a true leader! > I think, it is about time that you read through the last 10 years or more of tango-l archive. Mario and the likes of you and your friend have been mainly talking to each other on this list lately. You may be thinking that this is "your" list and that you guys are leading it while many of us may simply have been too bored to read much of it lately. Thank God, outlook has an "empty the deleted items folder"- button. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 4 18:25:41 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:25:41 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead In-Reply-To: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: Too often I see men use their arm > strength to pull the women through the movements that they actually > haven't led very well with the movement of their torsos. > > With best regards, > Steve de Tejas The arms are trying to make up for what the body could not achieve, making everyting even worse... Imagine what this feels like to a woman. You are lucky, Steve...but I know you are careful about who you dance with yourself. Been watching a few videos on someone's homepage recently... From tl2 at chrisjj.com Fri Apr 4 18:43:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 23:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead In-Reply-To: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: > In a recent post, someone seemed to comment favorably about a strong > lead ... I think it is too easy to confuse strength for clarity. Especially if you confuse the intended meaning of 'strong' for quite another! > Strength has very little do with clarity. On the contrary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strong 9. clear and firm -- Chris From robinctara at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 18:51:58 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:51:58 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead In-Reply-To: References: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860804041551u7d023d29l3361ce870d91cb6@mail.gmail.com> I took a chance and danced with a stranger at a milonga on the outskirts of town yesterday. He gave me no space and was leading by twitching my back with his arm and hand. Then he started to try to "teach" me. Thank heavens I finally know enough spanish to say "stop 'leading' me that way and we will do just fine." He started to argue and I was ready to walk off the floor, but he calmed down and actually stopped tugging. He realized very quickly that he should not make assumptions about foreign women and their abilities. After that the dance was much less painful and irritating even though it wasn't a great tango, at least I was more comfortable. On 4/4/08, Astrid wrote: > > Too often I see men use their arm > > strength to pull the women through the movements that they actually > > haven't led very well with the movement of their torsos. > > > > With best regards, > > Steve de Tejas > > The arms are trying to make up for what the body could not achieve, making > everyting even worse... Imagine what this feels like to a woman. You are > lucky, Steve...but I know you are careful about who you dance with yourself. > Been watching a few videos on someone's homepage recently... > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From tangopeer at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 20:05:07 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Torso (hips) In-Reply-To: <47F69DE3.8090405@tangoDC.com> Message-ID: <507357.76453.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For clarity: 1. The teacher was out in front of the class and we were doing an exercise. So, yes, I could see her hips. I wasn't dancing with her. 2. You're right. Someone once explained to me that (not sure of the spelling), the Tai Chien (just below the navel?) is the center of one's body ... not the hips. At the time, I was a young student and happened to notice that watching her hips gave me great reflexes. And, I couldn't see her navel because I was behind her. --- Jake Spatz wrote: > Tango For Her wrote: > > --- Dubravko Kakarigi > wrote: > > > >> When I teach and demonstrate something, either > with > >> a group or individually, I insist on folks paying > >> attention to my torso [...] and my hipwork > > That is SO true. > Come on... this is soccer lesson #1. Don't watch the > ball, watch the > guy's navel. He can fake you out with everything > except that. > > Watching her hips allowed me to experience some > really cool musicality. > Not sure how you could see her hips while you're > dancing with her, TFH, > but... well, let's just hope it wasn't salsa > musicality. ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From keith at tangohk.com Fri Apr 4 23:22:17 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:22:17 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead Message-ID: <49567.1207365737@tangohk.com> On Sat Apr 5 6:51 , "robin tara" sent: Then he started to try to >"teach" me. Thank heavens I finally know enough spanish to say "stop >'leading' me that way and we will do just fine." My greatest wish in Tango is that more ladies would stand up for themselves and say that, or its variation - just lead me and we'll be fine. Then the guys who can't lead would be forced off the floor. Keith, HK From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 4 23:44:53 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 12:44:53 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso and the Clarity of the Lead In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860804041551u7d023d29l3361ce870d91cb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080404210008.412C8236280@p3fed1.frb.org> <9e1cc4860804041551u7d023d29l3361ce870d91cb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: He gave me no space and was leading by > twitching my back with his arm and hand. Then he started to try to > "teach" me. Thank heavens I finally know enough spanish to say "stop > 'leading' me that way and we will do just fine." He started to argue > and I was ready to walk off the floor, but he calmed down and actually > stopped tugging. Haha, good one, Tara ! What did you say? "No me marqua, seramos mejor", or something like that? (my conjugation skills in Spanish are still a bit limited) I still remember the day when I finally managed to make that little new teaching assistent stop patronising me who would give me mediocre dances at the milongas and then always finish every dance with telling me (aping what his boss said during lessons) : "Muy bien!". I asked a friend for advice, and told him:" Eres mejorando", ('you are getting better') and gave him an approving smile. He never tried that again. ; ) From febaker at buffalotango.com Sat Apr 5 00:43:12 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:43:12 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <040ev3t7jdi2aeh0erdv7g65b53529srsk@4ax.com> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:05:58 +1100, you wrote: >Floyd Baker wrote: > > A Maestro and Strad pairing is something many many people in the world > > want to see and hear more of. It's a wonderful combination of > > harmony, co-operation and dedication.... Now if I had used bulldozer > > and dirt, you'd have a reason to be upset, eh? ;-/ >Actually, there are quite a few violin maestros who get very annoyed by >the Stradivarius legend. So what? We're not talking violins.., are we? This is a Tango list... Stay on topic.. Although I do know it's hard to do with all the bad examples all around you. Snipes and snide remarks.. One liners ad nausium... It's sad to say there are such people. But if one missed or ignored the true meaning and intent of what was said and intended in the nicest of ways, they surely have no imagination at all. It's also doubtful they have any appreciation for anything loved, cared for, inspiring or satisfying. What a sad life that must be. > In truth, there are violins being made today >that are just as good as a Strad, and it's frankly insulting to the >maestros when they hear people say "of course he sounds good, he has a >Strad". No one can actually tell the difference between a Strad and a >well-made copy. > >In the end, a Stradivarius is simply a passive instrument, and your >metaphor suffers as a result. >Perhaps you might consider using conductor and orchestra as a better one? Why... Because the maestros are alive? But still the beauty does come from their 'instruments' in the end.., doesn't it. People just have to face it.. That is if they claim to be dancing real Tango. I hope most everone in this thread knows they are off topic. Like children taunting others... Is everyone insecure? Fearing they're one of those cheaper fiddles and so making fun of everything ever said, felt or known of the quality, beauty and worth of Strads...? What's the problem folks? Learn to accept other ways of looking at the same thing, especially when it's to the same end... Let me remind people for the sake of list sanity.., that email readers can block single email addresses. Mine or or anyone else's... It matters not who you would block. Everyone will at least then be able to talk with those who are within their own sphere... Back slappers, dogged feminists, Tango dancers., or whatever other group there may be... And each group will then not have to be upset by those they cannot abide. Is anyone up to creating a killfile list to insure Tango-L discussions are kept at being *Tango* discussions? It doesn't really need to be made public. Each knows who they feel is expendable to them, eh? Those excluded would be like a parallel universe. ;-) Complete with outerspace astroids and all. Just a thought. But at least we should *try* to stay on topic, eh...? Hugs to all... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 5 00:32:31 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:32:31 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <040ev3t7jdi2aeh0erdv7g65b53529srsk@4ax.com> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> <040ev3t7jdi2aeh0erdv7g65b53529srsk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3A3552B30FF543A390389982871342C1@homePC> As a matter of fact, we have just compared notes in private on how many people's kill files you are already. And as for being off topic, take your friend TFH's advice and send your own mail back to you to see how it reads before you post it. If you are able to grasp your own meaning from another point of view, that is, which I severely doubt, actually but it might e worth a try anyway. TFH has got at least that much going for him to come up with a self-reflective idea like that. Even if it was probably just a joke about hitting the wrong button. And by now I am starting to wonder what is so terribly important about that bloody Stradivari that this topic just will not die. If you recall, it was just a small number of people on the list who enjoyed this metaphor, they kept throwing it back and forth between each other and got very loud here. And not one single woman here who said that she liked it or considered it even remotely suitable. Now, if you can't hear, won't listen to anything the women on this list have to say, I wonder, well, no, actually, I don't wonder about the way you dance tango. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 5 00:33:44 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:33:44 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor In-Reply-To: <040ev3t7jdi2aeh0erdv7g65b53529srsk@4ax.com> References: <47F04706.6010602@gmail.com> <040ev3t7jdi2aeh0erdv7g65b53529srsk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <0E9BFDBFED2C47EB8054C33A2FBEA7DD@homePC> what I just sent you is not about you, it is about Floyd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Floyd Baker" To: "Myk Dowling" Cc: Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] That awfully insulting metaphor > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:05:58 +1100, you wrote: > >>Floyd Baker wrote: >> > A Maestro and Strad pairing is something many many people in the world >> > want to see and hear more of. It's a wonderful combination of >> > harmony, co-operation and dedication.... Now if I had used bulldozer >> > and dirt, you'd have a reason to be upset, eh? ;-/ > > >>Actually, there are quite a few violin maestros who get very annoyed by >>the Stradivarius legend. > > So what? We're not talking violins.., are we? > This is a Tango list... Stay on topic.. > > Although I do know it's hard to do with all the bad examples all > around you. Snipes and snide remarks.. One liners ad nausium... > > It's sad to say there are such people. But if one missed or ignored > the true meaning and intent of what was said and intended in the > nicest of ways, they surely have no imagination at all. It's also > doubtful they have any appreciation for anything loved, cared for, > inspiring or satisfying. What a sad life that must be. > >> In truth, there are violins being made today >>that are just as good as a Strad, and it's frankly insulting to the >>maestros when they hear people say "of course he sounds good, he has a >>Strad". No one can actually tell the difference between a Strad and a >>well-made copy. >> >>In the end, a Stradivarius is simply a passive instrument, and your >>metaphor suffers as a result. > >>Perhaps you might consider using conductor and orchestra as a better one? > > Why... Because the maestros are alive? But still the beauty does > come from their 'instruments' in the end.., doesn't it. People just > have to face it.. That is if they claim to be dancing real Tango. > I hope most everone in this thread knows they are off topic. Like > children taunting others... Is everyone insecure? Fearing they're > one of those cheaper fiddles and so making fun of everything ever > said, felt or known of the quality, beauty and worth of Strads...? > > What's the problem folks? Learn to accept other ways of looking at > the same thing, especially when it's to the same end... > > Let me remind people for the sake of list sanity.., that email readers > can block single email addresses. Mine or or anyone else's... It > matters not who you would block. Everyone will at least then be able > to talk with those who are within their own sphere... Back slappers, > dogged feminists, Tango dancers., or whatever other group there may > be... And each group will then not have to be upset by those they > cannot abide. > > Is anyone up to creating a killfile list to insure Tango-L discussions > are kept at being *Tango* discussions? It doesn't really need to be > made public. Each knows who they feel is expendable to them, eh? > Those excluded would be like a parallel universe. ;-) Complete with > outerspace astroids and all. > > Just a thought. But at least we should *try* to stay on topic, eh...? > > Hugs to all... > > Floyd > > > Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango > * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From febaker at buffalotango.com Sat Apr 5 02:48:40 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:48:40 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] The cross -- another view In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404163102.01ea60d0@waxman.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404163102.01ea60d0@waxman.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:56:15 -0400, you wrote: >Argentine Tango is a partner dance -- it's the woman's dance too. > >There are those on the list who insist that every follower's movement >in Argentine Tango is led by the leader, including the cross. > >If that is so, please explain to me how you lead embellishments or >adornments by the follower? >And, if you do not lead embellishments, but do lead the cross, what >if the follower's embellishment is a crusada/a cross? > >As an example of embellishments (also known as: chiches, firuletes, >adornos, ornaments, decorations, etc), and there are many among the >tango videos on Youtube, see Jennifer Bratt's channel on embellishments: > >http://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus > >And, for those leaders who do not allow a follower pauses, or time, >or space for an improvised, unled embellishment in their dance, I >suggest you to learn to do this. It will add another dimension to your dance. > >Marty Waxman Marty... Here's something that provides an answer to many of the current questions and misconceptions that people have. The lead and follow of embellishments It's fairly long because it is very detailed. www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_embellishments.html And just in case something *isn't* answered on this page, it likely is answered several times over on other pages. I hope you enjoy it.... Because I wrote it. :-) Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From skindance at juno.com Sat Apr 5 01:58:43 2008 From: skindance at juno.com (skindance@juno.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 23:58:43 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] foot in mouth disease Message-ID: <20080405.000640.3264.1.skindance@juno.com> Thank you, Astrid! I would add AMEN, but for the fact that every delete takes time as well as time to cull the overwhelming chaff from the useful commentary. I often cringe when one of you gets sucked in. But then i think of all the other thousands of silent suffers all over the world who are forced to endure and waste their valuable life with deletes generated by selfish, thoughtless,unmannered, and/or insensitive posters seemingly overwhelmingly American running on empty! . Unfortunately, your comment probably falls on deaf ears. Nevertheless, kudos from the gallery! ******************************************************************** On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:19:23 +0900 "Astrid" writes: > > Charles, take your own advise. Stop sending posts > > that belittle others. Do what I do, often. I'll > > write the post and email it to myself. I did that, > > yesterday, with an email that I was going to broadcast > > back to Stephen. I sent it to myself. Why? Because > > if I sent it to all of you, I would be doing what you > > do. Bringing down the level of quality on Tango-L. > > > > You write some great posts. Why in the world are you > > "putting other people in their place" all the time? > > You don't carry any weight, in THAT area, with us! > > Mario is worth a lot more to this group than either > > you or me!!! Mario is a true leader! > > > > I think, it is about time that you read through the last 10 years or > more of > tango-l archive. Mario and the likes of you and your friend have > been mainly > talking to each other on this list lately. You may be thinking that > this is > "your" list and that you guys are leading it while many of us may > simply > have been too bored to read much of it lately. Thank God, outlook > has an > "empty the deleted items folder"- button. > > _______________________________________________ From spatz at tangoDC.com Sat Apr 5 04:23:00 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 04:23:00 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Torso (hips) In-Reply-To: <507357.76453.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <507357.76453.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47F736E4.4010209@tangoDC.com> Tango For Her wrote: > For clarity: > > 1. The teacher was out in front of the class and we > were doing an exercise. So, yes, I could see her > hips. I wasn't dancing with her. > Gotcha. Was anyone dancing with her? > At the time, I was a young student and happened > to notice that watching her hips gave me great > reflexes. And, I couldn't see her navel because I was > behind her. > All else being the same, would you mind describing these influential hips? I'm curious to know how your observations (then, now) square with what I described, regarding level hip movement. That topic, I think, could be of lasting interest to a lot of people. Jake From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Sat Apr 5 04:39:26 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 02:39:26 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Why do any of you dance tango.. Message-ID: <00f401c896f8$8fea6c60$4100a8c0@labyrinth> The subject that never dies/ That awfully insulting metaphor/ Apology/ Foot in mouth disease/ Not Leading vs Leading crosses - reverse crosses/ On and On it continues. Wow, I have been on this list for a while and recently have been watching a lot of bantering back and forth. Some good and some not. There have been some really illuminating comments (Thank you). Also some opinions which a lobotomy, Horrible girl/boy friend (choose your pleasure), or fisting could not remove. All of it, entertainment. Yet none of you have answered this simple question. I could answer this in many ways. I will choose this one. “We” are the music makers, and “We” are the dreamers of the dream. Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. I hope you all have had at least one nice, beautiful dance this evening. Have fun. David/ Zorrito No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date: 4/4/2008 8:23 AM From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 11:25:13 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) In-Reply-To: <685667.34372.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <104551.1705.qm@web55314.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Mario wrote: > the last class I took in December was billed as a class > to learn; floor navigation, musicality and connectivity....it cost me $100 and the teacher's idea of musicality was to call out the steps during a song and everyone perform them basic 8, ocho cortado, back ocho, etc etc... in open embrace... that was THE last class I'll ever take from an open embrace teacher Hi Mario, I'm glad you decided to stay on the list and look forward to your future posts. Before you close off the opportunities to work with open-embrace instructors, I'd like you to consider the possibility that the instructor was using a particular pattern to bring out the musicality in a piece of music. Not being in the class, I can't say for sure that would be the case, but it might be. For example, I teach a vals class after my initial beginners class so that students can get more familiar with phrasing. In vals, the phrasing is pretty predictable with the 1-2-3-1 rhythm clearly emphasized between beats 7 & 8 in an 8-count phrase. So I teach a simple but specific pattern that ends with the woman doing the molinete between beats 7 & 8. When it's done right, the vocabulary matches the phrase and students go "Aha!". When it's not done correctly (e.g., the man begins the pattern with the right foot instead of the left), students can easily tell when they've missed the rhythm. It makes them more conscious of actually dancing to the music and encourages the women to be more responsible for the music, too. The teacher might have also just wanted folks to dance in open because it is often easier to work in open if one is working with patterns, without the additional issues that comes with dancing in close. I bet, though, that if you had decided to close the embrace and still do the pattern, that would have been perfectly fine. I know they'll be folks on their no-pattern, just-dancing blah blah blah kick, but I just figure their tango is as limited as their thought processes. I'd rather not see that happen with you. Just a few thoughts. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 14:47:50 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 11:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) Message-ID: <92483.24926.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Trini, The last part of your email/post; "I know they'll be folks on their no-pattern, just-dancing blah blah blah kick, but I just figure their tango is as limited as their thought processes. I'd rather not see that happen with you." ...leaves me troubled. I am one who believes in no-pattern, just-dancing...(blah, blah, blah?) Perhaps, there is just a misunderstanding in terms... someone kindly sent me these videos of Osvaldo Ceneno dancing Tango. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Osvaldo+Centeno+y+Ana+Maria+Schapira+&search_type= I would point at these two dances as being no-pattern, just-dancing...would you?? Sure there is a cut ocho or two but does that disqualify it? ..and if it is a no-pattern, just-dancing style of dance, what is there to complain about? ..that it is unteachable by you? --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tangopeer at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 15:30:21 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 12:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) In-Reply-To: <92483.24926.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <835452.42000.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Actually, Mario, If they were to teach (maybe, they do), they would break down a few 6 or 8 step sequences (patterns) and teach the steps and the feel from those. Again, across the great USA, the teachers with the most successful classes are going out and finding 6 or 8 step patterns that are tricky or elegant and bringing them back home. Why? Because that is how you keep men in your classes. The men don't, as a norm, see that they are learning finnesse. They see that they are learning a pattern that they can show off. However, if you go to the class looking for the finnesse, the feel, you can get just as much out of the class. *** Welcome back !!! *** --- Mario wrote: > Hi Trini, > The last part of your email/post; > "I know they'll be folks on their no-pattern, > just-dancing > blah blah blah kick, but I just figure their tango > is as > limited as their thought processes. I'd rather not > see > that happen with you." > ...leaves me troubled. I am one who believes in > no-pattern, just-dancing...(blah, blah, blah?) > Perhaps, there is just a misunderstanding in > terms... someone kindly sent me these videos > of Osvaldo Ceneno dancing Tango. > > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Osvaldo+Centeno+y+Ana+Maria+Schapira+&search_type= > I would point at these two dances as being > no-pattern, just-dancing...would you?? > Sure there is a cut ocho or two but does that > disqualify it? > ..and if it is a no-pattern, just-dancing style of > dance, what is there to complain about? > ..that it is unteachable by you? ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 16:45:09 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:45:09 +0000 Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Re:_[Tango-L]_on_open-embrace_teaching_(was_something_on?= =?windows-1256?Q?_inventing_steps)=FE?= Message-ID: Hi Mario, The thing about learning tango is that it offers an infinite number of possibilities with respect to steps, creativity, styles, and type of music you dance to . The limit as to what you wish to learn is set by you. At this point in your learning process the main problem you are going to encounter is to learn *How to lead *. You cannot learn how to lead by watching other people dance. Somebody has to teach you. This somebody could be another dancer, a friend of you, or an instructor. When you ask "do I have to invent her steps too"? the answer is "YES". You are the one that tells her what you wish her to do. She will not do anything you do not lead. We also lead her embellishments. You ask her to dance, then you offer an embrace to her, next you feel the music, then you decide what you want to do with that music. Now you start leading, you tell her what she has to do. She follows your lead and executes the steps suggested by you according to her own feelings of the moment and the music. Next you have to navigate the floor, properly, protecting her, avoiding to disturb the other dancers, becoming part of the flow of the line of dance. The video you provided shows two tangos well danced, milonguero style. They have very few choreographic elements. Ocho cortado, (many ochos cortados). Few corriditas (runs) in front of her of about three steps, double time. Left rocking turns (gardelitos). A couple of sacadas with left leg. Few right turns. Voila: a beautiful tango with very few elements and good musicality. You may decide that this is the way you wish to dance and this is fine. Best regards, Sergio My last day in Mar del Plata, Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From antonst at alidas.com.au Sat Apr 5 17:01:29 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:01:29 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Bogus Tango Internet Store? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF4F7@stancosbs1.stanco.local> The Tango Shop (www.thetangoshop.com)... I placed an order for 3 DVDs last Nov 15. Despite repeated requests for progress information, I am still awaiting a single response. I'm thinking they are just a bogus organisation and will share my experience with as many as possible. I guess I've blown my $200. Anyone have similar experience with this mob? I'd be happy to place a retraction if the videos arrive. Anton From martin at waxman.net Sat Apr 5 17:47:42 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:47:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) =?iso-8859-1?Q?=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405174407.01f289c0@waxman.net> At 04:45 PM 4/5/2008, Sergio Vandekier wrote: >... She will not do anything you do not lead. We also lead her >embellishments. Please explain how would you lead some or all of the embellishments shown in Jennifer Bratt's channel on embellishments: http://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus Marty From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 5 19:40:09 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:40:09 +0900 Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Re:_=5BTango-L=5D_on_open-embrace_teaching_=28was_someth?= =?windows-1256?Q?ing_on_inventing_steps=29=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <297EDE0FC7174706A3C951568C582A6D@homePC> Sergio wrote: > When you ask "do I have to invent her steps too"? the answer is "YES". You > are the one that tells her what you > wish her to do. She will not do anything you do not lead. We also lead > her embellishments. > According to Carlos Gavito, Melina Brufman, Gustavo Saenz, Oscar Mandagaran and a few others I have learned from, not necessarily... respectfully Astrid From donnay at donnay.net Sat Apr 5 20:33:22 2008 From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventingsteps) In-Reply-To: <835452.42000.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <835452.42000.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <795444AC1AFD4419BFFF0C6E9223C741@gatewaylaptop> Hmmm - this isn't my experience. I don't teach fancy patterns, or in open embrace, and I teach lots of technique. Yet I generally have more men in my classes and my classes are quite successful. I hear that another teacher in town, who teaches in open and with lots of complicated patterns, has more women in his classes. Now I'm not saying that there aren't guys in town who are drawn to do too many fancy moves that they haven't learned how to lead yet, just that it's not good to generalize. Nor is it always the men - sometimes there are women who ask the men for fancy moves. Then there's the teachers from out of town - We had a visiting teacher in town last week who taught the move where the woman secadas the man. I dislike that move, as it is almost impossible to lead well, and I don't think it is musical, beautiful or comfortable. A move purely meant to impress students. But because he taught it, and because he is from out of town, I'm sure the leaders in town will be cranking the followers around trying to emulate him, at least until his influence is forgotten. But being a traveling teacher is a competitive business, and I understand that you've got to have something new. Loisa Donnay Minneapolis, MN, where the Heartland Tango Festival opens May 9th! > Again, across the great USA, the teachers with the > most successful classes are going out and finding 6 or > 8 step patterns that are tricky or elegant and > bringing them back home. Why? Because that is how > you keep men in your classes. The men don't, as a > norm, see that they are learning finnesse. They see > that they are learning a pattern that they can show > off. > > However, if you go to the class looking for the > finnesse, the feel, you can get just as much out of > the class. From stermitz at tango.org Sat Apr 5 21:40:51 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:40:51 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) In-Reply-To: <835452.42000.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <835452.42000.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A34639D-DEDA-49E8-90A7-91AE3F127D97@tango.org> On Apr 5, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Tango For Her wrote: > Again, across the great USA, the teachers with the > most successful classes are going out and finding 6 or > 8 step patterns that are tricky or elegant and > bringing them back home. Why? Because that is how > you keep men in your classes. The men don't, as a > norm, see that they are learning finnesse. They see > that they are learning a pattern that they can show > off. In my experience, this is false. I see the opposite, i.e. men don't stay for tricky figures, rather they stay when the material is presented in a way that makes them feel successful. Teaching complicated figures causes men to quit out of frustration. Women have more patience, are more willing to take privates, and improve by dancing with the teacher. Tango is difficult for the guys, especially at the beginning. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Sat Apr 5 22:34:26 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 21:34:26 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) Message-ID: <20080406023034.31031235207@p3fed1.frb.org> TFH wrote: >[A]cross the great USA, the teachers with the >most successful classes are going out and finding 6 or >8 step patterns that are tricky or elegant and >bringing them back home. Why? Because that is how >you keep men in your classes. The men don't, as a >norm, see that they are learning finnesse. They see >that they are learning a pattern that they can show >off. This is contrary to what I have observed in many cities across the United States. Like Tom, what I've observed is that men are more interested in working on the fundamentals that make them successful leaders. Complicated patterns discourage them--particularly beginners. I've also have found that typically many more women then men sign up for workshops with visiting instructors who teach fancy elements. With best regards, Steve de Tejas BTW, in response to Anton Stanley's post, I've dropped all links to the Tango Shop from my website. http://www.tejastango.com/ From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 23:30:41 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) In-Reply-To: <92483.24926.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <256860.29056.qm@web55311.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Mario wrote: > Hi Trini, > The last part of your email/post; > "I know they'll be folks on their no-pattern, > just-dancing > blah blah blah kick, but I just figure their tango is as > limited as their thought processes. I'd rather not see > that happen with you." > ...leaves me troubled. I am one who believes in > no-pattern, just-dancing...(blah, blah, blah?) For social dancing, I do advocate dancing without patterns. But patterns can have a place in teaching, and not necessarily complicated patterns. There are some people who need something very structured until they learn to control their bodies. For example, I have one student who "moseys along" in his normal walk, which is the timing he brings to tango so he tends to be behind the beat. With him I have to do a specific pattern over and over and over for an entire song until he can do it without thinking. So patterns can be useful to break out of habits. And I've learned to be more forgiving of beginners who need patterns. I know that over time, they'll eventually dance their own dance. But if patterns is what they need for the time being, then I'm happy that they've found a way to enjoy a dance. Sometimes we'll do a complicated patterns in our advanced class, but it always to hone a particular skill. We usually don't see the pattern being used at a milonga (they may ask about it at the next practica), but that's okay. Our students know what the purpose of the pattern is and pick out what they need. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From keith at tangohk.com Sun Apr 6 00:01:21 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 00:01:21 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps) Message-ID: <49587.1207454481@tangohk.com> On Sun Apr 6 9:40 , Tom Stermitz sent: > >In my experience, this is false. I see the opposite, i.e. men don't >stay for tricky figures, rather they stay when the material is >presented in a way that makes them feel successful. > This is true up to a certain point, when the guy begins to feel successful. This is usually when the girls start to enjoy dancing with him in the milongas. At this point he thinks he knows all the basic stuff and starts to experiment with fancier figures. Partly it's just a competitive instinct because he wants to compete with other guys doing the same thing. As for the girls, yes, as beginners they're impressed by guys who dance fancy figures. But it seems to me that the better the girl becomes, the less she wants to dance fancy figures. She may go to all the advanced classes with the visiting Argentines but it seems to be more for the style, feeling and technique. The guys go for the figures. Keith, HK From tangobliss at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 00:26:43 2008 From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 00:26:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival (1) Message-ID: Hi, Here's today's images from the 2008 Atlanta Tango Festival. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/sets/72157604402010422/ More to come and videos up on YouTube soon. Miles. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 11:21:52 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:21:52 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Leading embellishments Message-ID: Martin says: "Please explain how would you lead some or all of the embellishments shown in Jennifer Bratt's channel on embellishments:http://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus" Astrid adds "According to Carlos Gavito, Melina Brufman, Gustavo Saenz, Oscar Mandagaran and a few others I have learned from, not necessarily"... (Astrid refers to leading embellishments). I agree with Astrid: embellishments may be led, but not necessarily. There are different types of embellishments (firuletes) the woman does. Many of them are little moves, (some not so little), she does with her feet to adorn front or back ochos for instance, those little moves, she executes by herself, without a lead; she *adds* them to her normal movements. They can be added almost at any moment during the dance, even during the molinetes (giros) and of course during pauses. The woman that learns to do them, embellishes the dance in an enormous way. She certainly belongs to a group apart of a different type of dancing. She is admired by everyone. The most important thing is that she should not disturb the dance, they should be added without causing the man to become annoyed by sudden unexpected, delaying, jerky moves. When I said *We* lead the embellishments I referred to we, us, our group. We certainly lead Boleos of different types: Low (different degrees), mid and high boleos. Amagues (front boleos) , normal and high, the last ones in different shapes. Back straight boleos. We lead embellishments on the side step, at the beginning of walked turns, etc, etc. I am not going to explain how I lead each one of those embellishments, I would suggest that you obtain the video of Diego Difalco and Carolina Zokalski on Technique for the Follower. This video shows the different firuletes the woman can do and Diego explains in detail how to lead them. For instance: when you lead a boleo, if you want this adorno to be low you slightly press (project a down intention) and the woman executes a low boleo the lower the intention the bigger the boleo on the floor. If you project an upward intention (this may be done with your torso or your right hand on her back) she will do a high boleo. You may also start with a low boleo and finish with a high amague, etc. You indirectly ask for embellishments (still lead) when you either dance slowly or when you allow extra time for her to express herself executing her adornments. The same happens when you allow the "automatic" (a bad word, I recently learned) cross to occur, in reality you still are leading as you exert a choice, either the cross happens or not. Summary : you lead *almost* everything but you cannot determine the way she steps, walks or the little things that she adds to her steps. Have a nice Sunday, Sergio. _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008 From tangobliss at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 13:13:13 2008 From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:13:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Saturday Evening Message-ID: <88AC3C7D-5F8A-47F9-AAC8-D4C07F7897C6@gmail.com> Hi, A few more images for you folks that want to be here.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/tangobliss/sets/72157604414061375/ Miles. PS: Video of Atlanta will be posted shortly on YouTube. From TimmyTango at aol.com Sun Apr 6 23:18:34 2008 From: TimmyTango at aol.com (TimmyTango@aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 23:18:34 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Liz Haight y Masami workshop in Cleveland Message-ID: People in Cleveland shared a great experience this weekend when Liz Haight and Masami Hirokawa, from Santa Fe, NM came to Cleveland. Liz and Masami teach the Apilado style of tango and at the workshop strengthen everyone's connection and embrace, the communication between two people, and work on letting the follower add her feelings to the dance while trying to teach more of the leaders to listen. Teaching us to open up and not to be affraid to show our feelings. In the process many people slowed down in the dance making it more sensuous and more enjoyable for their partners. At the beginning they made this possible by teaching steps we already knew or making the steps so easy the men didn't have to think of what the steps were, so that they were able to concentrate on the quality of connection between the leader and follower. Liz has taught in Buenos Aires, and Tom Stermitz's Denver tango festival several time with the late Gran Master Ricardo Vidort, Masami, and again will teach there is year. You can view Liz with Ricardo by going to Youtube Joanne and I have made plans to have Liz and Masami return to Cleveland this coming July for more of their excellent instruction. Some of the comments of people in the class were: "Liz gave us the keys to unlock the inner tango!" A.C. "Liz made the connection between partners precious and made dancing the tango a free experience." C.H. "Other teachers have given us words. Liz and Masami have given me the punctuation that turns words into Poetry." T.C. "Makes me melt into my partner and then set us both free like birds into the sky." C.R. "Lucious feelings of close embrace." R.B. I highly recommend to anyone looking to bring excellent Apilado, Milonguero style tango instruction to their city to consider Liz Haight and Masami You contact Liz Haight at 505/982-5833 Lizhaight at earthlink.net I'm Timmy in Cleveland www.tangocleveland.com Oscar Casas and Maryann Plus Marcello Fernandez come to Cleveland April 25-27 ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) From keith at tangohk.com Mon Apr 7 00:13:03 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 00:13:03 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Liz Haight y Masami workshop in Cleveland Message-ID: <50246.1207541583@tangohk.com> This reads like an advert. Shouldn't it be on Tango-A or, better yet, on a flyer. On Sun Apr 6 23:18 , TimmyTango at aol.com sent: >People in Cleveland shared a great experience this weekend when Liz Haight >and Masami Hirokawa, from Santa Fe, NM came to Cleveland. From chenth at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 14:21:19 2008 From: chenth at comcast.net (chenth@comcast.net) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:21:19 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Bogus Tango Internet Store? Message-ID: <040720081821.2658.47FA661F000C3A4C00000A622207003201089B020A080C@comcast.net> The website lists the following phone numbers: 1-888-8TANGO8 (882-6468) International calls at 1-415-573-5735 Website is registered via Godaddy with the following information. The address corresponds to the one on the website: Registrant: The Tango Shop 4360 Montecito Avenue Santa Rosa, California 95404 United States Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) Domain Name: THETANGOSHOP.COM Created on: 03-Feb-04 Expires on: 03-Feb-09 Last Updated on: 06-Apr-06 Administrative Contact: hornos, gustavo thetangolesson at hotmail.com 4360 Montecito ave santa rosa, California 95404 United States 4155735735 Technical Contact: hornos, gustavo tangodance at usa.com 1530 armstrong ave novato, California 94945 United States 4155735735 Domain servers in listed order: NS3.VOLUSION.COM NS4.VOLUSION.COM Registry Status: clientDeleteProhibited Registry Status: clientRenewProhibited Registry Status: clientTransferProhibited Registry Status: clientUpdateProhibited Google maps imagery does not clearly illustrate whether this is a real store front address as the arrow seems to overlie greenery: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=4360+Montecito+Avenue,+Santa+Rosa,+California+95404&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.426353,59.414063&ie=UTF8&ll=38.468059,-122.692121&spn=0.003788,0.007253&t=h&z=17 Their website appears to get a decent amount of traffic: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/thetangoshop.com/?metric=uv The technical contact is listed as Gustovo Hornos whom Google reveals as having registered this website as well: http://www.tangoclasses.com/ Registrant: gustavo hornos 1530 armstrong ave novato, California 94945 United States Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) Domain Name: TANGOCLASSES.COM Created on: 27-Jan-04 Expires on: 27-Jan-10 Last Updated on: 14-Feb-08 Administrative Contact: hornos, gustavo tangodance at usa.com 1530 armstrong ave novato, California 94945 United States 4155735735 Technical Contact: hornos, gustavo tangodance at usa.com 1530 armstrong ave novato, California 94945 United States 4155735735 Domain servers in listed order: NS09.DOMAINCONTROL.COM NS10.DOMAINCONTROL.COM The www.tangoclasses.com website lists the same contact information and phone number in addition to a photo of the registrant. You may wish to call the phone number and see if you get a positive response. Failing that you may wish to discuss a chargeback with your credit card issuer on the original charge although you may be outside the chargeback window now. There are additional complaints posted on the internet. Always consider the source when evaluating the validity of anonymous internet postings: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/302/RipOff0302518.htm http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=20827 From tangobliss at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 18:21:21 2008 From: tangobliss at gmail.com (m i l e s) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:21:21 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Message-ID: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> Hi, Here's the end result of *MY* Atlanta Tango Festival experience... There's something in there for everyone, I think. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=996E01128CEEB12E Miles. From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 19:18:36 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:18:36 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video In-Reply-To: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> References: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 3:21 PM, m i l e s wrote: > Here's the end result of *MY* Atlanta Tango Festival experience... > > There's something in there for everyone, I think. > > http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=996E01128CEEB12E First of all, Miles, a sincere thanks for posting the videos. And as regards http://tinyurl.com/5qu3o8, thanks for reminding some of us just how mindlessly shallow and unfulfilling alternative milongas can be! To paraphrase the cathartic ending of the music: "Doot doot doot doot! Dee-doot dee-doot dee-dooooot! Doooot-dee-doooooot-deeeeee-doooooooooooootttt!!!" ["Uhhh, buh-deep-buh-deep-buh-deep, th-th-th-that's all, folks!!" *Daffy Duck wave* *cue Warner Brothers cartoon-ending credits music*] Wow, I haven't had that much fun since I shot up some heroin and missed the stinkin' vein. [cue Cartoon Muted Cornet of Disappointment going *wommmmpp wommmppp wommmmmmmmmmp*] Huck From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 8 19:19:22 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? Message-ID: <632391.60900.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> had to send this video..my favorite in all of youtube...can't knock perfection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mekNwq3AW4E --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Tue Apr 8 20:25:42 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:25:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video References: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01c899d8$43151560$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Since Miles posted videos, it's time to express my thanks to the organizers, Alan and Angel, for a wonderful festival. They care very much about making it great and listen carefully to feedback. After last year's festival, I wrote on Tango L that the ballroom was too dark and cabeceo was just about impossible to use. On top of that, very few people seemed to use it. At this festival, Barbara Durr taught a class on milonga etiquette about cabeceo and that LINE of dance also means LANE of dance. Alan has a cute expression that sums it up "You're not just dancing with your partner. You're dancing with everybody else at the milonga." Unfortunately, that message fell on deaf ears as some couples wanted to go NOWHERE and do some fancy, elaborate figure that took up too much space (crossed over into the next lane) or too much time. Fortunately, Robert Hauck and Barbara taught a class "Viceversa reversals and mirror images." The class dealt with check steps (I call them rock steps) to use when stuck behind non moving traffic. Where cabeceo didn't work for me, I used Plan B, which I should have used last year. I told women in the hallway and at classes I wanted to dance with them. I got to everybody except two, which is better than coming home complaining there were a lot of women I didn't dance with. I remember telling one I couldn't get her attention, even though she was sitting at a table closest to the floor. She only looked out into the floor and not around her to see if anybody wanted to dance with her. Like the flight crew says on the plane "Your closest exit might be behind you." At a milonga, the closest person who wants to dance with you could be BEHIND you. One man wanted a woman so badly, he sat in a chair in front of her and just starred at her. When she finished talking to her friends, she turned around, saw his gaze, and screamed. Well, he got to dance with her. I was going to try that with Hillary, but somebody sat in that chair and my chance was lost. Well, there's next year. Congratulations again to Angel and Alan. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I had such a good time, I forgot I haven't filed my taxes yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "m i l e s" Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Hi, Here's the end result of *MY* Atlanta Tango Festival experience... http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=996E01128CEEB12E Miles. From tangotangotango at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 22:40:34 2008 From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:40:34 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video In-Reply-To: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> References: <49D94C0C-F7C3-467D-A463-57B34A8A1642@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9fb1555a0804081940h4fe9e2bel72ae1ee5693611d5@mail.gmail.com> The 'alternative milonga' is the dance world's answer to the kiddie table. Neil From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 9 12:38:37 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Message-ID: <51427.1207759117@tangohk.com> Thanks for posting the videos Miles. I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMO the best thing about seeing US instructors dance is that it makes the rest of us feel less inadequate, which is how I often feel after watching Argentines. I don't really understand the purpose of the instructors' demonstrations - other than to send everyone to sleep :-). I'm not saying they should be dancing choreographed show routines but at least they should be of a high level of excellence and difficulty to motivate and inspire their students and others. What these demonstrations say to me is ... "learn from us and achieve a high level of mediocrity". Just my opinion. Keith, HK On Wed Apr 9 6:21 , m i l e s sent: >Hi, > >Here's the end result of *MY* Atlanta Tango Festival experience... > >There's something in there for everyone, I think. > >http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list\?p=996E01128CEEB12E > >Miles. >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 13:58:42 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video In-Reply-To: <51427.1207759117@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <608870.60963.qm@web55314.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Keith wrote: demonstrations - other than to send everyone > to sleep :-). I'm not saying they > should be dancing choreographed show routines but at > least they should be of a high level > of excellence and difficulty to motivate and inspire > their students and others. What these > demonstrations say to me is ... "learn from us and > achieve a high level of mediocrity". Hi Keith, I'm not going to flame you because you bring up a good point - whether demos motivate and inspire. The Alanta Festival is specifically close-embrace, which means that its focus is on social dancing. Tomas and Brigitta are the only couple that are also do show tango. The Ann Arbor festivals didn't have any demos on that same principle for a long time. But I have to say, that I was very glad that Alex Krebs and Luciana Valle talked the organizers into letting them do a demo, which was indeed inspiring. Perhaps organizers of festivals events should consider whether demos are appropriate. The teachers at the Altanta festival are chosen for their teaching ability. I've studied with most of them and and found them all to be excellent teachers. I don't think the demos showed them at their best, perhaps they were too conscious of it being a close-embrace festival. (I wish, though, that they hadn't spread themselves all over that huge floor). It seems to me that we may now be at a crossroads. The close-embrace "movement" began as an answer to more show-style teaching methods (complicated patterns, open-embrace, etc.). As close-embrace became better appreciated, taught, and practiced in the U.S., it started to incorporate some nuevo elements. Both styles encouraged vocabulary that was organic. However, the close-embrace that I see most of the time is different from the style that I see the milongueros do. The milongueros do a lot of basic steps but add a lot of footwork for musicality. But now that close-embrace (in whatever form) has become more of the norm, are we now interested in it becoming more showy? I've noticed that it's the beginning women who want to do the showy steps (boleos, volcadas, leg wraps), and the men oblige them. And I can see it heading back to where we started - show tango. A few thoughts. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tango.society at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:01:52 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:01:52 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video In-Reply-To: <51427.1207759117@tangohk.com> References: <51427.1207759117@tangohk.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Keith wrote: > Thanks for posting the videos Miles. I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMO the best thing > about seeing US instructors dance is that it makes the rest of us feel less inadequate, which > is how I often feel after watching Argentines. I don't really understand the purpose of the > instructors' demonstrations - other than to send everyone to sleep :-). I'm not saying they > should be dancing choreographed show routines but at least they should be of a high level > of excellence and difficulty to motivate and inspire their students and others. What these > demonstrations say to me is ... "learn from us and achieve a high level of mediocrity". > Just my opinion. > > Keith, HK This is not a flame, just a reality check. First: - Tomas Howlin & Juan Suarez are Argentine - Brigitta Winkler is German - Marika Landry is Canadian - Robin Thomas is Irish (Northern) The Americans are Robert Hauk, Barbara Durr and Hsueh-tze Lee. I've danced a lot with both Barbara and Brigitta and some with Hsueh-tze. They are all wonderful to dance with. This is not something you may see, but something you feel with partners who have a great connection. All of them are excellent instructors. I've also learned a lot of tango from Robert. My wife Susana says he is a joy to dance with. A good refined tango focuses on partner connection and musicality, not creating a visual spectacle. The untrained eye may think the dancers exhibiting boleos, ganchos, volcadas and rapid turns are good dancers (and some are). However, I have been sent to the chiropractor more than once by exhibitionists of this type. We need more demonstrations of good social tango. Ron From joe.grohens at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:14:03 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:14:03 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo Message-ID: <21740333-74F2-4DAE-9E3F-3D96F5E1E485@gmail.com> Following Keith's comments on Miles's videos of the Atlanta teacher demos. - Sheesh. Does anyone on this list ever look at tango dancing without immediately passing judgement on what they see? One can watch all dancing with curiosity and interest, and learn from it. - I wonder if 'demo' is really an accurate title for these "meet the teachers" dances. They're just dancing, they are not trying to demonstrate a lesson. Re: Trini on the "close embrace" movement. - Is the technique used by these couples really what promoters mean when they say "close embrace"? What is meant then by "open embrace"? joe From tango.society at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:29:50 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:29:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero Message-ID: On 4/9/08, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > > It seems to me that we may now be at a crossroads. The > close-embrace "movement" began as an answer to more > show-style teaching methods (complicated patterns, > open-embrace, etc.). As close-embrace became better > appreciated, taught, and practiced in the U.S., it started > to incorporate some nuevo elements. It could be that some instructors, when visiting Buenos Aires, cannot resist the powerful magnet of Villa Malcolm and their dancing evolves out of inspiration. Or it could be that they are seeing their market share decreasing due to the nuevo epidemic. Thus, nuevo milonguero has sprung upon the US tango market. > However, the close-embrace > that I see most of the time is different from the style > that I see the milongueros do. The milongueros do a lot of > basic steps but add a lot of footwork for musicality. People seriously interested in studying tango should observe the milongueros dance before they are all gone. No one expresses musicality like they do. it would be a great loss to tango if new generations of dancers do not learn this art. > But > now that close-embrace (in whatever form) has become more > of the norm, are we now interested in it becoming more > showy? If marketed that way, it will become the norm. > I've noticed that it's the beginning women who want > to do the showy steps (boleos, volcadas, leg wraps), and > the men oblige them. And I can see it heading back to > where we started - show tango. Only if instructors of close embrace tango allow it. If they believe in the tango they dance, they will teach a dance that focuses on connection and musicality. However, in a culture that feeds on 'Dancing with the Stars', they are going to need a day job. Ron From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 15:44:18 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo In-Reply-To: <21740333-74F2-4DAE-9E3F-3D96F5E1E485@gmail.com> Message-ID: <776113.56248.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Consider the sources. I think the biggest problem on Tango-L is you have Show/Ballroom dancers making judgements about salon/social/milonguero dancers ( and vv) I am not interested in what I see, I am interested in what I feel. And you can't always tell by looking! --- Joe Grohens wrote: > Following Keith's comments on Miles's videos of the > Atlanta teacher > demos. > > - Sheesh. Does anyone on this list ever look at > tango dancing without > immediately passing judgement on what they see? One > can watch all > dancing with curiosity and interest, and learn from > it. > > - I wonder if 'demo' is really an accurate title for > these "meet the > teachers" dances. They're just dancing, they are not > trying to > demonstrate a lesson. > > Re: Trini on the "close embrace" movement. > > - Is the technique used by these couples really what > promoters mean > when they say "close embrace"? What is meant then by > "open embrace"? > > joe > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 16:27:18 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo In-Reply-To: <21740333-74F2-4DAE-9E3F-3D96F5E1E485@gmail.com> Message-ID: <645665.98031.qm@web55312.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Joe Grohens wrote: > Re: Trini on the "close embrace" movement. > > - Is the technique used by these couples really what > promoters mean > when they say "close embrace"? What is meant then by > "open embrace"? In my mind, close-embrace means no separation between the bodies, and if separations occur they are unnoticeable by anyone watching. Open-embrace means complete separation between the bodies for most of the dance. But there is also a distinct vocabulary. Because the festivals often have the same teachers, there's a particular feel that a participant can expect. Tomas & Brigitta opened in their demo but they only did so for certain figures. That is your normal tango de salon, where one stays close except for when the figures need an open frame. I suppose one should say that close-embrace is also tango de salon but simply danced without the open figures. That's my take on it today, anyway. Although I found Keith's post unnecessarily harsh, he does bring up an issue that I've found myself facing. I think part of what Keith is referring to isn't just vocabulary but the beauty of movement, which the Argentines understand. How does one encourage that beauty? Through drills and exercises. So how hard does one drill one's students? I started tango with Argentine teachers who often did drills at the beginning of workshops - and I mean drills, not exercises. I think that's why they have such good technique. American teachers tend to take a softer approach (myself included), which works for building community and helping students understand movement. Sometimes when I lead exercises then stop and turn around to watch (while still giving verbal cues), the students just stop and I have to tell them to continue. Sigh. Right now, I only know of one American teacher who leaves his students in a sweat. There's a difference in precision when people are trained like that. But as far as I know, there's not much training like that going on in the States. That's one reason, I'm actually looking forward to the Forever Tango tour. I'm hoping to get back into that type of workout. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From keith at totango.net Wed Apr 9 17:19:31 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Harsh & comments Message-ID: <61487.69.159.127.162.1207775971.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> Hi guys; Forgive me for being self-conscious; seeing people talking about "Keith" making harsh comments, I just wish to make sure you know it's not "This" Keith. You know what I mean. BTW, I was just caught in the domain renewal companies-take-their-time-so-you-don't-exist-for-a-few-days thing like a few others, I notice. I'm back! From dchester at charter.net Wed Apr 9 20:05:27 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:05:27 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Message-ID: <20080409200527.QZA85.107548.root@fepweb08> Hi Keith, It's always a pleasure to hear how much you appreciate Americans and our tango. I for one, am always looking for ways to raise up my dancing from it's current level of mediocrity (and it's probably quite low, since I'm no where near as good as either Robin Thomas or Tomas Howlin (the two leaders that I've seen dance before)). Anyways, I have a possible solution to my (and possibly many American's) dilemma. I was hoping that sometime soon, you would bless us by posting some videos of yourself dancing (of course with a high level of excellence and difficulty). In addition, (and I realize it's a lot to ask), would you also consider gracing us with a tour of the USA, so that some of us could one day be inspired to rise above our high level of mediocrity? I can't be the only one salivating over the prospect of learning from someone as well respected as you are. What do you think? Will you help us out? : ) David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: Keith >Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video >To: tango-l at mit.edu >Thanks for posting the videos Miles. I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMO the best thing about seeing US instructors dance is that it makes the rest of us feel less inadequate, which is how I often feel after watching Argentines. I don't really understand the purpose of the instructors' demonstrations - other than to send everyone to sleep :-). I'm not saying they should be dancing choreographed show routines but at least they should be of a high level of excellence and difficulty to motivate and inspire their students and others. What these demonstrations say to me is ... "learn from us and achieve a high level of mediocrity". Just my opinion. Keith, HK From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 9 23:38:04 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:38:04 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo Message-ID: <50099.1207798684@tangohk.com> Nancy, I agree with what you say, but when we're not dancing, we're often watching other people dancing. Don't you love to see smooth, elegant Tango by wonderful dancers who make it all appear so natural and effortless? And doesn't it inspire you to want to work harder, learn more and to try to improve? That's really all I'm saying. Javier Rodriguez taught in Hong Kong a few months ago and was a huge inspiration for many students. And his influence lasted long after the classes were over and went far beyond what he actually taught in those classes. Keith, HK On Thu Apr 10 3:44 , NANCY sent: >I am not interested in what I see, I am interested in >what I feel. And you can't always tell by looking! > > From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 9 23:52:41 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:52:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo Message-ID: <50138.1207799561@tangohk.com> Trini, EXACTLY! Many students are satisfied just learning how to dance. But they're not prepared to go the extra mile to learn how to dance in a beautiful way. Unless they're in some way inspired - and that can only come from great dancers. Keith, HK On Thu Apr 10 4:27 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent: I think >part of what Keith is referring to isn't just vocabulary >but the beauty of movement, which the Argentines >understand. How does one encourage that beauty? From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 00:05:56 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo In-Reply-To: <50099.1207798684@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <145849.29570.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No, that's not all you were saying. I was in Atlanta. I saw some beautiful dancing not only by all the instructors, but also by the 350+ dancers who were there - most of then Americans. What you are ignorant of, among other things, is that of that 350, perhaps 80% of them have spent time in BsAs and all of them have studied with Argentine teachers - probably many more than you have. I know whom you admire. I know what kind of show dancing you think is great. I differ in my opinion. I also have reports on your dancing from women who have danced with you. I can go watch an intermediate class of show tango anytime I want. I leave in 14 days for my tenth trip to BsAs where I will see and enjoy Argentine dancing. I also had some amazing tandas in Atlanta. Talk about what you know. And don't believe everything some tango hustler in BsAs tells you. And before I agree that Javier is a great dancer, I would have to dance with him. Nancy --- Keith wrote: > Nancy, > > I agree with what you say, but when we're not > dancing, we're > often watching other people dancing. Don't you love > to see > smooth, elegant Tango by wonderful dancers who make > it all > appear so natural and effortless? And doesn't it > inspire you > to want to work harder, learn more and to try to > improve? > > That's really all I'm saying. Javier Rodriguez > taught in Hong > Kong a few months ago and was a huge inspiration for > > many students. And his influence lasted long after > the > classes were over and went far beyond what he > actually > taught in those classes. > > Keith, HK > > > > On Thu Apr 10 3:44 , NANCY sent: > > >I am not interested in what I see, I am interested > in > >what I feel. And you can't always tell by looking! > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > <> de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From keith at totango.net Thu Apr 10 00:43:32 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo Message-ID: <60013.65.93.194.219.1207802612.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> Keith E. from Montreal here ... It's easy to see comments come from people with fervently held views. As they will be. I do think people learn over time, as they get a deeper understanding of everything, that the views they express in their enthusiasm and early critical stages are not necessarily views they will stand-by as time goes by. And when they are not, it's embarrassing. Well, I'll express a view now (which I know will not come back to haunt me). The eye is the most critical of faculties in terms of our biases. We believe what we "see." Most of our prejudices comes from the place sight holds in our sensorium. That person it too tall; that one too short. Wrong colour ... etc. We're so darn sure our eye see things "right." People with a keen eye are (tend to be) highly opinionated. When what we see doesn't match what we are looking for, we pooh-pooh easily. I'm going to tell you something; this is one thing I absolutely LOVE about Tomas Howlin's way of dancing. If you are looking for him to dazzle you with something, you're going to have to be really patient, I believe. He can - he can dance circles aorund most of us pip-sqeaks all day and all night. But he is a fine dancer. Capital F. He is showing the finer things of tango; the subtlety; the communication; the love for his partner and the music. His skill is evident to someone with a REALLY good eye. It just seems that he is so mature and so kind and generous that it is not in his nature to show-off. I admire his restraint. He knows tango. I can't imagine a lovely woman dancer not wanting to be in his embrace for either a social dance or a demonstration/performance. Just like one picture cannot show you the Universe, watching a couple of videos or even live shows will not show you a dancer. The ones who want you to see it all like that aren't worth watching. They haven't grown up yet. But, yes, maybe they can impress highly opinionated people who also haven't grown up yet. I grant you that watching a video can reveal people who aren't technically good dancers right away. But, on video or in person, how you see a really good dancer is largely determined by your own perception and expectations. The best tango dancers don't try to show you that they are. They are caring for their partner; loving the music; expressing how they feel in the moment; making it as smooth, effortless, kind and gentle as it can be. They care not for the eye which can't see that is looking for more than this. It is the Tomas's of the professional world I admire so much because they are showing all the sweet and subtely creative things about tango with commensurate skill, control and sensitivity. I know tango loves Tomas. I know tango wishes all the flash-for-show dancers would grow up. To the other Keith and other newish devotees to tango I respectfully say: keep dancing and searching and enjoying, because you obviously have the love and for that you are so lucky. But, try not to say things you are going to regret when you actually get it. All us mortals do it; but I'll bet people like Tomas didn't. From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 10 02:07:23 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:07:23 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo Message-ID: <50765.1207807643@tangohk.com> Keith, I have absolutely no doubt that Tomas Howlin is a 'fine' dancer and if he ever visits HK, I will certainly be in line to take lessons. I also have no doubt that that he can dance circles around all the regular contributors to this List. But I was talking about students being inspired and, for that, 'fine dancing' just won't do. What is the purpose of a demonstration at a Tango Festival, if not to inspire the participants? And, if you read my post to Nancy, I did refer to elegant, smooth, natural, effortless dancing. That's what I want to see; I certainly don't want to see flash and dazzle show dancing in this context. Keith, HK On Thu Apr 10 12:43 , "Keith Elshaw" sent: > >But he [Tomas Howlin] is a fine dancer. Capital F. > >> From arborlaw at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 15:22:44 2008 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:22:44 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] leading cruzada In-Reply-To: <85EA94D1-18D7-40D2-BF61-68B475414960@gmail.com> References: <85EA94D1-18D7-40D2-BF61-68B475414960@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47FA7484.7010901@comcast.net> Joe Grohens wrote: > There should be no such thing as an "automatic" cross. Maybe not in TANGO?. "Automatic" > would mean that the women just do a cross on their own as a memorized > pattern. That's wrong. Women do not dance on their own. They dance > with and in response to what the man is doing. > Social dancing is full of small bits of automatic footwork. Every dancer knows only what he or she learned and what's gleaned from dance experience. Such rules include things like which steps follow which in a molinete/giro and how you handle a lead for a rock step turn (which has many names and I don't remember them right now). Under the above blanket statement, you could just as easily say that a follow should never understand a circular body lead as a giro and commit to following it around using the giro footwork. The fact is that many women (myself included) were taught at some point deliberately to automatically cross after two steps, unless prevented from doing so by the lead. I don't do this anymore because it's not the style in our club, but when a lead doesn't lead the cross and then seems to be at a loss at the crossing point that I haven't crossed myself, I can accommodate. I'm sure the men in our community have different preferences about crossing, but they all seem to have no problem dancing with either kind of follow on the social dance floor. -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.biz From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 09:47:05 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] snarky comments on Atlanta demo In-Reply-To: <50765.1207807643@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <722924.37583.qm@web55313.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Keith wrote: > ... I was talking about students being inspired and, for that, 'fine dancing' just won't do. What is the purpose of a demonstration at a Tango Festival, if not to inspire the > participants? I've put finger on what bothered me about the video. And it wasn't the teachers. It was that the teachers were just so spread out that there wasn't any energy to the teacher demo videos. It's something I've seen in other group videos where it seems as if the couples are in a parade. For social dancers, the energy comes from other dancers. In a solo performance, the energy comes from the audience. I think that if they had been grouped together toward the center, then the video could have been more inspiring because the dancers would have picked up on that energy. As it was, one could only get snapshots of the dancers. One couldn't really focus and enjoy the entire performance. Live and learn. I have found a lot in inspiration from these teachers when I've watched them perform. I love Robin's playfulness, Brigitta's connection and playfulness with her partner, Mariko's grace, Robert's gentle giantness, Barbara's clean dancing, Tomas' elegance and technique, among other attributes. Most of them have taught here and inspired students. And I would have liked them to be presented at their best. People can find lots of different things to inspire them. Perhaps I'm just projecting what I'm trying to work on now onto a piece of film. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tang0man2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 13:26:07 2008 From: tang0man2005 at yahoo.com (steve pastor) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <976196.56546.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Recently I looked at "Tango Bar" again. I seemed to remember that there was an awful lot of the moves that are usually thought of as nuevo in there. There is in particular one scene in which dancers dance to "La Comparsita" in a very elegant setting. They appear to be in very close proximity to each other, based on the positions of their feet. You see, the first 2/3 of the scene shows only their feet and legs. Again, many many, very complicated movements and "foot play". Many things that most of us would probably label as "nuevo". The punch line here is that finally, we see the dancers from the chest up and note that they are all at least middle aged. The film has a 1988 copyright. Fabian Salas states that the first meetings of their "Tango Investigation Group" happened before 1990", and most sources list 1995 - 1997 as the years for the Group. So it is extremely unlikely that the filmed performances were influenced by "Nuevo". Salas has said that "We came up with in line boleos and ganchos like this, but everything was already there. We didn?t invent them. They were already there." http://www.totango.net/salas2.html If you wish to read a more in depth coverage of this look at this url http://www.history-of-tango.com/tango-renaissance.html Close embrace dancers looking like "Nuevo" dancers? It is perhaps a case of Back to the Future. Meawhile, it is possible to use the process of analyzing how apilado movements work to teach people how to dance the apilado style of "close embrace", and I know at least one instructor (and I can probably count two) that approach their teaching that way. In that respect the Nuevo Milonguero label might be appropriate. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dchester at charter.net Thu Apr 10 14:15:13 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:15:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? Message-ID: <20080410141513.8DVYG.132866.root@fepweb16> Mario, I'm having a hard time picking out my favorite Tango, so I thought I'd first reply with a couple of my favorite milongas. I hope others will post some of their favorites as well. Maria Olivera and Gustavo Benzecry Saba dancing to Morena by Morgado http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kmqbQTUlk Flaco Dany and Silvina Vals dancing to Tango Negro by Caceres http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53V9y06jMUc Enjoy, David --------------------------------------- > From: Mario > Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? > To: tango-l at mit.edu > had to send this video..my favorite in all of youtube...can't knock perfection > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mekNwq3AW4E From barbara at tangobar-productions.com Thu Apr 10 18:25:27 2008 From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:25:27 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Not Nuevo Milonguero In-Reply-To: <976196.56546.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <976196.56546.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47FE93D7.7010103@tangobar-productions.com> Dear All, The couples you refer to in Tango Bar are all social dancers, a few of them taught a little, most of them are now dead. They are dancing what is sometimes referred to as Villa Urquiza style. Al and I met most of them in 1987-1990 and took classes from 5of them including Fino Ribera and Roberto Grassi. IMO they were then, and would still be, if they were alive, high among the best dancers in Bs As + the world. Please note that although not dancing what is now called Close Embrace, they have no trouble dancing on a crowded floor, although everything is improvised. Those we talked to told us that they danced in the late '40s- early '50s and then very little until 1983. And not only are none of them young, none had any dance training, which opened up possibilities for those of us without either of advantage. Our amazing luck in meeting these people changed the way we thought about tango in1987 and is our basis for judging dancers to this day. This scene in Tango Bar is probably as close as it is possible to get to the Golden Age of tango.. There are a few clips on Ney Melo's Youtube page, thank you Ney! Abrazos, Barbara Garvey steve pastor wrote: >Recently I looked at "Tango Bar" again. I seemed to remember that there was an awful lot of > the moves that are usually thought of as nuevo in there. There is in particular one scene in > which dancers dance to "La Comparsita" in a very elegant setting. They appear to be in very > close proximity to each other, based on the positions of their feet. You see, the first 2/3 of > the scene shows only their feet and legs. Again, many many, very complicated movements > and "foot play". Many things that most of us would probably label as "nuevo". > The punch line here is that finally, we see the dancers from the chest up and note that they > are all at least middle aged. > The film has a 1988 copyright. > > Fabian Salas states that the first meetings of their "Tango Investigation Group" happened > before 1990", and most sources list 1995 - 1997 as the years for the Group. So it is > extremely unlikely that the filmed performances were influenced by "Nuevo". > > Salas has said that "We came up with in line boleos and ganchos like this, but everything > was already there. We didn?t invent them. They were already there." > http://www.totango.net/salas2.html > If you wish to read a more in depth coverage of this look at this url > http://www.history-of-tango.com/tango-renaissance.html > Close embrace dancers looking like "Nuevo" dancers? It is perhaps a case of Back to the Future. > Meawhile, it is possible to use the process of analyzing how apilado movements work to > teach people how to dance the apilado style of "close embrace", and I know at least one > instructor (and I can probably count two) that approach their teaching that way. > In that respect the Nuevo Milonguero label might be appropriate. > > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > > > From luv2dancetango at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 19:17:10 2008 From: luv2dancetango at yahoo.com (Darlene Robertson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable Message-ID: <469748.7501.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sometimes tango dancers overstep their bounds... sometimes it's exacerbated because the situation involves an INSTRUCTOR, which damages the reputation of the entire community. After updating the Denver community of the latest events, I received encouragement to make sure the tango-society-at-large, via this discussion group, stays informed. Much like when this Discussion List alerted us to a similar Atlanta community situation involving an alleged perpetrator, and much like the recent postings about a "phantom" tango site for getting merchandise, etc. It's important as a community we remain informed. To that end, here's the latest: Chas Gale was found guilty in Denver County Court on Tuesday of unlawful sexual contact while teaching a tango lesson at his studio in February 2007. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/09/tango-teacher-convicted-in-sex-case/ This sad situation teaches us something really IMPORTANT, not only for me but other men and women that don't have the inclination or ability to speak up. So please remember to always say something if you're uncomfortable. .. if not to the person directly, to another person to alert them, or to the appropriate authorities. We all need to protect one another! Darlene __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Thu Apr 10 22:40:06 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:40:06 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <469748.7501.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <469748.7501.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The article states that Chas is still fighting his case, and is going to appeal the verdict. There were doubts on the credibility of the victim too. Your statement that you "received encouragement" without stating from who or how many people, and saying "it is important that as a community we remain informed" (who are "we"? what "community?", remained informed about what? something that may have happened once in Denver and has not really been proven? ) may be no more than a vague justification for your passing the news around to a list of 1200 some people around the globe and setting out to destroy Chas' reputation as a tango teacher, whatever your motives may be. Chas used to be one of the funniest, most entertaining members of tango-l, and I, for one, miss his postings. you wrote: > After updating the Denver community of the latest events, I received > encouragement to make sure the tango-society-at-large, via this discussion > group, stays informed. Much like when this Discussion List alerted us to > a similar Atlanta community situation involving an alleged perpetrator, > and much like the recent postings about a "phantom" tango site for getting > merchandise, etc. It's important as a community we remain informed. > > To that end, here's the latest: > From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 06:54:27 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 03:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <469748.7501.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <782185.9763.qm@web55310.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Darlene Robertson wrote: > Sometimes tango dancers overstep their bounds... > sometimes it's exacerbated because the situation involves > an INSTRUCTOR, which damages the reputation of the entire > community. Darlene, While I completely understand where you're coming from and I agree that those who feel that they've been abused should speak up, we differ on WHO needs to be informed. As an instructor, I keep the same policy that school teachers take, i.e., I don't share a student's grade, concerns, or contact info with the public. Other teachers I may inform on a need-to-know basis. However, given the fact that only the two people involved know what happened, is it really fair for them to be judged by others who aren't privy to this same information? Although we often think of tango communities as families, there's a point in which it needs to be looked at it professionally from a liability standpoint. Another way of thinking about it is if one employee informed their supervisor about sexual harassment of another employee to his/her management, would you expect the supervisor to go around telling everyone else about the incident? It is a difficult issue. Sometimes it's a case of people not being able to set boundaries. Sometimes it's a case of people not respecting other's boundaries. With more experienced dancers, it can get rather murky. For teachers and community leaders, I think the question would be "What would an accredited college do?" Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robinctara at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 09:45:16 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:45:16 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Tara Shoes News Message-ID: <9e1cc4860804110645o1d189c29t7b4fd1b240764530@mail.gmail.com> Just a note to let everyone know what's going on at Tara Tango Shoes. We have formed an alliance with Diva Boutique which has enabled us to announce that we now have a huge inventory of styles and sizes available immediately. To see what we're stocking now, go to: http://www.taratangoshoes.com You can also check Diva Boutique's extensive collection of shoes at: http://www.diva_boutique.com We are adding new styles every month so keep checking back. All the best, Robin Tara Tara Tango Shoes From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 11:04:25 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Coaching the Lead Message-ID: <532068.25484.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yesterday, I had my first real breakthru in Tango. I took a private class from a very advanced dancer/follow. She helped me with my posture and balance, continuously stopping and reminding me when it went out, which was often. My head had been dropping forward which was a lot of weight going off balance and I was always concaving my chest as if to scoop her into my arms as I began the embrace. She taught me how to stand erect but relaxed and invite the woman into my embrace. At first, I was completely amazed and defeated by the additional complexity of the walk. I had to do all this and hold a woman in my arms at the same time?? When at last, I understood the connection of the embrace (apilado) as a communication, it started to click..when I could feel my chest (sternum) connection as THE communication of where we were going..the arms seemed to disappear and I began to really lead for the first time. I'm asking here for more coaching on posture, balance, etc...what helped you? What do you remind yourself of, in order to get it right each time?? thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 12:26:18 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:26:18 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Coaching the Lead In-Reply-To: <532068.25484.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <532068.25484.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mario, My 2c: Posture for both leader and follower: Imagine your body pulled by two strings. The first is from your crown, pulling straight up. This aligns your head and vertebrae vertically along your spine. The second is pulling from a point in the center of your chest, mid-way between your throat and your breasts, and is pulling out and up at a 45deg angle. This pull results in your shoulders going back and dropping down, and lifting your chest, of course. Finally, keep your abs/core engaged, with your belly button pulled back towards your spine. This tips your pelvis slightly and slightly flattens your lower, "sway" back. Attitude for both leader and follower: "Stand up" to your partner. Maintain your autonomy and sovereignty. Regardless of how ethereal you feel when you get into the zone, do not swoon, do not cave, do not compromise the integrity of your posture. Even for a very tall leader and very short follower, stand as tall as possible. Tall leaders avoid bending over no matter how nurturing and protecting you are feeling towards her. Short followers avoid tipping head back as if "looking up" to your leader. it will tend to arch your back. Instead stand tall (string pulling on crown) and maintain your own wholeness and individuality. Balance: For both leader and follower: When you step, visualize moving your tailbone, which is very near the center of your body's mass, to position it directly above the foot you are stepping onto. For leaders: Pay attention to your followers axis/balance. To some degree you have a responsibility for maintaining your follower balanced. on her axis. If she has taken a step, and you follow her (in the Gavito sense), yet perhaps you slightly misjudged your step and you can feel that she is slightly off-balance and leaning or pulling on you in one direction or another, then it behooves you to slightly sway or lean your upper body (still keeping yourself vertical, of course) to a position that allows her to be more comfortably balanced without straining and using your for support. One way to think of it is that she moves her foot according to her interpretation of your lead, and you move her torso (by moving your own torso which is connected to hers) to a position that is directly above her standing foot, thereby keeping her balanced on her axis. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 11 12:45:58 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:45:58 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <782185.9763.qm@web55310.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <782185.9763.qm@web55310.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D3996A66D49499EA1A37D64371BCE68@homePC> >However, given the fact that only the two people involved know what happened, is it really fair for them to be judged by others who aren't privy to this same information? I appreciate your sense of justice, Trini. >It is a difficult issue. Sometimes it's a case of people not being able to set boundaries. Sometimes it's a case of people not respecting other's boundaries. With more experienced dancers, it can get rather murky. For teachers and community leaders, I think the question would be "What would an accredited college do?" In my eyes, it is a question of "What would a someone do who is planning to establish himself as a tango teacher in a community where there are only so many potential tango students to go around? What are the motives of someone who publically defames someone who runs a business in the form of a reasonably successful tango studio? Is that person maybe trying to help someone who has an interest in taking over that teacher's students and does not feel confident enough in using his teaching credentials only and needs to resort to methods like these when the opportunity offers itself?" These are the questions that come to my mind in a case like this. And it would be an important reason for me to avoid that teacher who tried to take advantage of such a situation. purely hypothetical of course, I do not live in Denver but this whole affair got me thinking... Astrid From luv2dancetango at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 14:45:31 2008 From: luv2dancetango at yahoo.com (Darlene Robertson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] touchy subject, huh? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <301850.20877.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hello... just for the record i think i should point out that i am not an instructor and am not interested in "stealing" Chas Gale's students away from him nor Gaia Banovich nor The Tango House in Denver, Colorado. it's an uncomfortable subject. i'm UNCOMFORTABLE... that's why i want people to know about it. in 2008, with the internet, this is an easier way to notify people. my motivation is simple: to INFORM women (and to a lesser degree, men) of Chas' history... and to encourage us all to take the caveat "buyer beware" seriously. i will continue to remain on "high alert" about this issue and will, with your consternation or your blessing, let everyone know about the outcome of his sentencing and his status. he will be required to register as a convicted sex offender. he will continue to be prohibited from teaching "privates" alone (he is currently on probation for two years regarding a previous indecent exposure case in lieu of jail time). the onus is NOW on any community that decides to hire him as a teacher. simply, i don't want to take lessons from a registered, convicted sex offender. Chas' might be prevented from teaching in the US. Do you think he's not interested in continuing to pursue venues outside this country? last year, he travelled to Gaia's homeland to teach. for those of you around the world what criticism of me, or any of the rest of the Denver Tango Community, would you have if you hired someone that "some of us" knew about but didn't feel concerned enough you, my fellow tangueros y tangueras, to tell you? i would think you'd be pretty disappointed in me. i would be remorseful. that's why i posted it in the first place and stand STRONGLY by it. shoot the messenger if you want to (actually, thanks to most of you for sending words of praise) because, on this issue... i've got my bullet-proof vest on. Darlene Robertson Denver, Colorado __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From donnay at donnay.net Fri Apr 11 14:49:43 2008 From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:49:43 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <1D3996A66D49499EA1A37D64371BCE68@homePC> References: <782185.9763.qm@web55310.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1D3996A66D49499EA1A37D64371BCE68@homePC> Message-ID: <975F29F66C8F476D81CAD561B279CFB8@gatewaylaptop> Oh, this is SO the wrong way to think of this! Tango teachers know that every other tango instructor is a benefit - their marketing means more students coming into the community. All you have to do is be a good teacher with a good reputation, and others in the community will recommend you. A bigger community alone can create more buzz, which means more people interested in starting tango, which means more students for everyone. However, a teacher who is sleazy will cause people to drop out very fast. Some will try another teacher, but most will just go away, and further the myth of tango being a sleazy dance full of sleazy, groping, stalking men. The ones who stay aren't mentioning it, or if they are, it is only to very trusted teachers or their closest friends. Those people cannot warn anyone else, or if they do, it is limited and never changes anything. I too enjoyed Chas's posts and I also enjoyed dancing with him. However, I am glad that the woman who was uncomfortable said something. I'm sure she wasn't the first, and has had a difficult time. Many people in Denver knew about the situation for some time, but could do nothing. This negative publicity will be hard on the Denver tango community for awhile, but it will recover and be better for it. Loisa Donnay Minneapolis, MN > > In my eyes, it is a question of "What would a someone do who is planning to > establish himself as a tango teacher in a community where there are only so > many potential tango students to go around? What are the motives of someone > who publically defames someone who runs a business in the form of a > reasonably successful tango studio? Is that person maybe trying to help > someone who has an interest in taking over that teacher's students and does > not feel confident enough in using his teaching credentials only and needs > to resort to methods like these when the opportunity offers itself?" > > These are the questions that come to my mind in a case like this. And it > would be an important reason for me to avoid that teacher who tried to take > advantage of such a situation. > > purely hypothetical of course, I do not live in Denver but this whole affair > got me thinking... > Astrid From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 15:26:17 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:26:17 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable Message-ID: OK. I'll speak up. I am uncomfortable with gratuitous tittle-tattle about this particular lawsuit. It should be possible to make constructive remarks about ethical conduct for dance teachers, or how women should stand up for themselves against sexual harrassment, without seeking to spread this gossipy sensationalistic tabloid news about the case in Denver. And I agree with Astrid - it seems that Darlene has more to her agenda than trying to lift up other dancers. I also think that this particular problem of a tango lesson becoming sexual misconduct - regardless of whatever really happened in the aforementioned lawsuit - is connected to a rather warped and shallow idea of tango that is popularized by tango teachers and promoters. I am uncomfortable with tango promoters and teachers representing tango as a Latin antidote to Puritan inhibition. I wish people would stop selling tango as 'intimate," a "vertical expression of a horizontal desire," the "most sexual dance," a "dance of seduction," etc. I have seen tango teachers actually say such things in a class for first-time dancers. It's not only banal, it's disgusting! And it leads to distorted ideas. I am really uncomfortable that the popular image of tango dancing, inculcated by people in the tango business, is _so sleazy_ that attorneys could reasonably construct a BS legal defense like the following: "[His attorneys] argued that Gale was simply touching the woman for purposes of teaching her the sensual dance steps of the tango." That is quoted from the link that Darlene sent. You know, tango is not strip tease - they are two different dance worlds. I wish people would stop trying to combine them. I am uncomfortable with middle-aged women dressing for the milonga as if they were turn-of-the-century prostitutes. I am uncomfortable with "best lingerie contest" as a theme for milongas. I am not a prude, but really, what is the idea here? Is the dance itself not interesting enough for you? I am uncomfortable with guys who make tango dancing into an overt grope fest and public seduction ritual. Please, have some taste! And I am uncomfortable with the widely popularized fantasy ideas of tango that seem to define tango in this way. I am uncomfortable with men who take advantage of women who are in the vulnerable position of learning a new dance. In tango it is not unusual to hear the line that the man is the boss, the woman needs to surrender, submit, give herself. Many new dancers (men as well as women) are already way out of their comfort zone just due to the fact that they are trying to learn a new dance. It can be a very big deal for some people simply to be touching others, or to be moving their own body to music, or to be taken out on a dance floor where other people can see their timid efforts. Sometimes people have worked up a lot of courage to try tango. They fight back insecurity, fear, memories of past criticism, and sometimes past abuse. It is easy to confuse and abuse people in this situation. It is wrong to mix teaching with picking people up. People who are teaching dance ought to protect and care for new dancers, and make them comfortable, and not treat them like prey. Sex is part of life, and sex certainly is an underyling component of tango dancing. I just think it should remain underlying both at the milonga and at the dance studio. I would like to be able to bring my daughters and their friends to tango. From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 15:41:43 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Competition and fair play In-Reply-To: <301850.20877.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <600325.40361.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Darlene Robertson wrote: > hello... > > just for the record i think i should point out > that i am not an instructor and am not interested in > "stealing" Chas Gale's students away from him nor > Gaia Banovich nor The Tango House in Denver, > Colorado. Your MySpace page indicates otherwise. You offer tango lessons there. http://www.myspace.com/luv2dancetango Also curious to know if you are a part of the group which has taken over the Turnverin. That would remove some competition if you could shut down The Tango House where several instructors hold classes, milongas, practicas and out of town teachers hold workshops. I keep hearing from his competition how awful he has been for years. I never realized the Colorado women were so helpless. Certainly not the ones I know well. Some of his most vocal attackers actually dated him for a time. And you are on record as having decided he was guilty before the trial. So.......do we bring our own stones or will you provide them? Nancy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From buffmilonguera at aol.com Fri Apr 11 17:14:33 2008 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:14:33 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA6A302BFBC38C-628-3256@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Joe - I was very happy to see your e-mail....I don't know the particular case being discussed, but I was hopeful that the over-arching point would not be missed. I have talked to women who have had things like this happen to them - if not as overt. Two women cried when talking about it and the others were so horribly embarrassed about it that they made me promise not to tell anyone. Not all of these incidents happened in my own community, but I now make it a point whenever I am working with new dancers, male or female, to talk about this. I say that at the moment that it becomes uncomfortable, it is no longer tango. I acknowledge that that a dancer's comfort zone may change over time - for example, I am very comfortable and prefer close embrace - but it certainly wasn't something I would have been comfortable with 2 years ago. Tango is about a partnership - which, as I have said before, is why we use the words "dance partner" and not victor and vanquished. It is an equal partnership, with each partner making a contribution. This can not happen without mutual respect and trust. How could that elusive connection we all seek in every dance and with every partner happen with out feeling safe, respected and trusting. For me, if those things are missing, then it is just not tango.... Barbra From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 18:27:20 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable Message-ID: <327072.56695.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Without seemingly trying to minimize the problem, let me point out that it is not only the male (teachers) who may be abusive. Please let us not lose sight of the fact that sexual harassment and abuse come from all directions. I am speaking out of personal experience both as a child and as an adult. Stay vigilant and do not tolerate it! ...dubravko =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Fri Apr 11 21:32:36 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:32:36 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] touchy subject, huh? Message-ID: <00d001c89c3d$184803d0$4100a8c0@labyrinth> Hello All; Being one of the men in the Denver community, also one of the teachers and dancers here. This matter is really blown out of proportion. On a personal level, are the issues brought up important to address, absolutely!!! This is not about pointing the finger at Chaz to put him up on a pedestal. He just came to light, is the part of the iceberg everyone can see, and that we are all involved with to one extent or another (Both men and women alike). He wrote his own ticket on this. I may not know the details, but the over all image that has been brought to light are not surprising. As the old adage goes (that I just made up) “If your going to wreck a room,,, wreck the bloody room, and do it well by gum”. I am not going to damn him for being human, he has his good qualities (I understand he has a real talent for humor, making people laugh and a good insight to a few things). He also has his stuff, his shadows, and perceptions. How he chose to express them,,, not the most aware way. Which has offended a lot of people and become a legal matter. So goes life, so goes the dance, and so expresses tango. Darleen, can you say you are expressing your self any better. It may not look like it is happing in the same way as Chaz, but the intent behind it, not much different except that you think you are trying to pull out a very sharp knife to emasculate him. When all is said and done would have perpetuated the very thing you are accusing and pointing the finger at. One of the gifts that I see in you Darleen is that you are fantastic in organizing, being outrageous, out spoken and bringing things to light. Really great stuff!!! The way you are choosing to express your self here, I know you can do better. There was a woman from our community here who wrote a great commentary concerning the situation with Chaz, and I would include you with this. I have added a little embellishment in this. There is a village and in it there is a person who has wronged other members of the village. The person who performed the wrongs was required to set things right through service to the community. This person was also to sit on a stage in the middle of the village. Each villager stopped and with respect said something they appreciated about the offender. As the people said what they needed to, the person who had offended could not say anything except “Thank you”. Sex is part of being human and even a monk has to make choices about their sexuality and expression. Just like a gigolo, and everyone else on this list. Welcome to being human. So I ask you Darleen, Chaz and everyone else involved in this dance we express. Consider for a moment what I have wrote here. I my self will be out to dance tonight. I expect some dances will be blah, some will be friendly or fun. Some will be sexy, and some will be really hot!!!!. Enjoy the evening my friends and have at least one nice dance. David Hodgson/ Zorrito No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.12/1373 - Release Date: 4/11/2008 9:17 AM From DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com Fri Apr 11 22:58:04 2008 From: DHodgson at TangoLabyrinth.com (David Hodgson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:58:04 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Note to Kathryn Charles. In-Reply-To: <370d16c10804111909h671cb8a9l64fb0d760996fff3@mail.gmail.com> References: <00d001c89c3d$184803d0$4100a8c0@labyrinth> <370d16c10804111909h671cb8a9l64fb0d760996fff3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501c89c49$09864800$4100a8c0@labyrinth> Hello Kathryn; The Tango Festival is not mine, it is run by Tom Stermit?s who runs a fantastic tango festival in a great community. There are always a lot of great dancers and Leads that attend. Which I am only one out of many. If your choice is based on my opinions expressed that may have offended you. I would be happy to introduce my self so that you do not have to dance with me and have lots of opportunity to dance with other Leads. Take care. David Hodgson ________________________________________ From: Kathryn Johns [mailto:tangoartist at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:09 PM To: David Hodgson Subject: Re: [Tango-L] touchy subject, huh? I just canceled my plans to attend your festival! ? Kathryn Johns Charleston Argentine Tango Society No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.12/1373 - Release Date: 4/11/2008 9:17 AM From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 12 03:34:17 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:34:17 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <8CA6A302BFBC38C-628-3256@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA6A302BFBC38C-628-3256@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> still don't know what to think. Now, since Chas has gone so quiet, I will take the liberty to publish this here on his behalf after I found it on the internet. Chas' open letter to the tango community: http://media.westword.com/1066856.0.pdf at the same place, there is also an open letter from his partner, Gaia: http://media.westword.com/1066857.0.pdf And then I found this bizarre old thread on tango-l, must have missed it at the time: http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg02502.html (I do remember Derik Rawson though, the one Chas is addressing in her, another troll who thankfully left tango-l a few years ago and then posted on a dating page to find a woman without legs...) From abungureanu at googlemail.com Sat Apr 12 06:53:17 2008 From: abungureanu at googlemail.com (Andy Ungureanu) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:53:17 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> References: <8CA6A302BFBC38C-628-3256@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> <77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> Message-ID: <4800949D.7010006@googlemail.com> Am 12.04.2008 09:34 schrieb Astrid : > still don't know what to think. > > neither do I.. What I have learned by now looking from very far away is: 1. Denver must be a very happy community lacking any serious crime problems, where the district attorney and the public courts have time to spend with such peanuts. 2. The Denver Tango community is not able to settle their own matters and need public courts to do it. 3. If I where a male instructor in Denver giving privates to a female student, I would keep a witness all the time in the room or videotape the whole session. very, very sad... Andy From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Apr 12 07:44:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you're uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <469748.7501.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Darlene Robertson, of Denver, Colorado wrote: > my motivation is simple: to INFORM women (and to a lesser degree, men) > of Chas' history... Hmm... > just for the record i think i should point out that i am not an > instructor and am not interested in "stealing" Chas Gale's students Advice for mud-slinging instructors: upon revising one's web site to remove incriminating evidence, take care to also launder the copy on Google: http://tinyurl.com/3zn2jv (www.myspace.com/luv2dancetango one week ago) Darlene DENVER, Colorado About me: ... If you want tango lessons, sure... flag me down... -- Chris From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 12 11:01:07 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:01:07 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <4800949D.7010006@googlemail.com> References: <8CA6A302BFBC38C-628-3256@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com><77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> <4800949D.7010006@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <7077F6A6B70C48479FFF8F300E6AAB0B@homePC> Andy Ungureanu wrote: > What I have learned by now looking from very far away is: > 1. Denver must be a very happy community lacking any serious crime > problems, where the district attorney and the public courts have time to > spend with such peanuts. > 2. The Denver Tango community is not able to settle their own matters > and need public courts to do it. > 3. If I where a male instructor in Denver giving privates to a female > student, I would keep a witness all the time in the room or videotape > the whole session. > very, very sad... Can't help thinking, Nathaniel Hawthorne did have a point...I know some people are gonna hate me for saying this. From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Sat Apr 12 13:06:35 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:06:35 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Coaching the Lead References: <532068.25484.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c89cbf$94f59c30$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Mario: Good question. I concentrate on feeling the woman. OOPS. Let me rephrase that. I concentrate on the sensation of the woman's chest. If I feel her stomach, it means that my hips are forward and my weight is back on my heels. I can't lead with my stomach. To go even further, I also sense if our chests are in alignment at our sternums. If the woman pushes outwardly hard on her right arm, she is pushing us off the alignment. I push her arm downward so she pushes downward and I might be able to get us back into alignment. I suggest that when you don't feel you are in alignment, you will eventually figure out what has to be corrected. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango Still thinking fondly of some wonderful tandas at the Atlanta Tango Festival ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mario" To: Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:04 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Coaching the Lead She helped me with my posture and balance, continuously stopping and reminding me when it went out.. when I could feel my chest (sternum) connection as THE communication of where we were going..the arms seemed to disappear and I began to really lead for the first time. What do you remind yourself of, in order to get it right each time?? thanks From felixydelgado at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 13:29:36 2008 From: felixydelgado at hotmail.com (Felix Delgado) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:29:36 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango as a Latin antidote to Puritan inhibition Message-ID: > From: joe.grohens at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable > > I am uncomfortable with tango promoters and teachers representing > tango as a Latin antidote to Puritan inhibition. > First, I would like to say that a tango instructor guilty of sexual misconduct has no part in a tango community. Second, I don't think Tango-L is the place to magnify whatever justice has been handed out in the courts to this individual. However, shock about sexual misconduct shouldn't lead to the banishment of sexuality from tango. To do so only denies something that is inherent in tango, Argentine and a lot of Latin American culture. Sanitizing tango, as is done in ballroom dance tango, also removes a healthy outlet for sexuality in a generally sexually repressed society. So, I think tango is a perfect Latin antidote to Puritan inhibition. I grew up in a US Latino community. Hugs and kisses among friends and family were a normal part of my daily life. Women wearing short skirts and low necklines were only considered to be feminine, not prostitutes. Of course there was a limit, a boundary somewhere, but not the baggy clothes potato sack turtle neck wardrobe I see walking around on my college campus. It was when I got to high school, but mainly in college that I realized that affectionate hugs and kisses (for example, in greeting people) could be (mis)interpreted as sexual advances. There were limits placed on touching each other. I also began to see that the dominant (predominantly Anglo) culture valued minimizing the differences between men and women and, in particular, was critical of women who expressed their sexuality or men who expressed their attraction to women through compliments on their appearance, etc. I felt so sorry for my 'liberated' Anglo friends who were prisoners in their politically correct homogenization of sexual differences and repression of sexuality. There must be some influence of the American Puritan heritage that is the root of this aversion to masculinity, femininity, and sexuality. Then I encountered tango. I felt I had found a home away from home, where you can hug someone during a dance without being threatening. Where women can be feminine and men can be masculine (in a healthy way), where it is OK to flirt and express your sexuality. > I am uncomfortable with middle-aged women dressing for the milonga as > if they were turn-of-the-century prostitutes. Let me play 'politically correct' here? What an ageist comment! Is it OK for young women to dress in a revealing manner? I have seen prostitutes walking the streets in several North American and Latin American cities, and I have been to milongas around the US, and I have never seen any women dress like a prostitute. Maybe I'm going to the wrong (or is it 'right'?) milongas. What I do see are women dressing up and enjoying their femininity and sexuality. Although there may be some extreme cases, I think these women are just having fun, perhaps given permission within a tango environment to express themselves in a way they are not permitted to without criticism outside the walls of the milonga. In that way, tango is liberating. Besides, it's their own choice. No one is telling them how to dress. Let's let tango live on as an healthy antidote to the hang-ups about sex the Puritan heritage puts us in. Felix _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 From railogic at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 13:51:13 2008 From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> Message-ID: <265270.31431.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That was nice of you Astrid. I dont know this person, if he is guilty, then Law has indeed taken its course. IMHO...it is cruel to continue stabbing someone already bleeding. IL Astrid wrote: still don't know what to think. Now, since Chas has gone so quiet, I will take the liberty to publish this here on his behalf after I found it on the internet. Chas' open letter to the tango community: http://media.westword.com/1066856.0.pdf at the same place, there is also an open letter from his partner, Gaia: http://media.westword.com/1066857.0.pdf And then I found this bizarre old thread on tango-l, must have missed it at the time: http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg02502.html (I do remember Derik Rawson though, the one Chas is addressing in her, another troll who thankfully left tango-l a few years ago and then posted on a dating page to find a woman without legs...) _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From railogic at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 13:52:39 2008 From: railogic at yahoo.com (Iron Logic) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <77217CAF4B494C89BE270A372B14B5D8@homePC> Message-ID: <193609.80967.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That was nice of you Astrid. I dont know this person, if he is guilty, then Law has indeed taken its course. IMHO...it is cruel to continue stabbing someone already bleeding. IL Astrid wrote: still don't know what to think. Now, since Chas has gone so quiet, I will take the liberty to publish this here on his behalf after I found it on the internet. Chas' open letter to the tango community: http://media.westword.com/1066856.0.pdf at the same place, there is also an open letter from his partner, Gaia: http://media.westword.com/1066857.0.pdf From hoytlee at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 14:22:00 2008 From: hoytlee at earthlink.net (Hoyt Ng) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:22:00 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable In-Reply-To: <193609.80967.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <193609.80967.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58F94FC5-7435-4D08-93FE-E0274388BDF6@earthlink.net> I found this local article on the case from many months ago http://www.westword.com/2007-08-02/news/dirty-dancing/ just more 'information' for folks, on both sides of the issue, who may be seeing this just from the context of the postings. From alex at tangofuego.us Sat Apr 12 14:51:09 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:51:09 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable Message-ID: <20080412185425.BDC19857C5A@mit.edu> A side note to the side show... There is a gross assumption going on here...a gross group assumption...groupthink on a societal scale...the assumption that our system of criminal justice actually works... Well, it doesn't... Pleading guilty to a charge does not mean you are actually guilty... Pleading innocent and then being found guilty by a jury does not mean you are actually guilty... Plea bargaining and admitting guilt to a lesser charge does not mean you are guilty... Sometimes, the quickest, cheapest, easiest way out of the criminal justice system, with the least brain damage, is to plead guilty... If you are faced with a retainer of $15,000 to plea bargain and plead guilty to a lesser charge...and be done with it in under 6 months...with a guarantee of no jail time... Or a $50,000 retainer to fight for your innocence in court (for a year or more), with no guarantee of being found innocent...even if you are... Which option would you choose? I'm not saying anything about whether Chas is innocent or not...I don't care...he is my friend...I refuse to judge him in this matter... I'm just saying our justice system does not work like we would all like to think it does... It's more about the "process" and the money, than it is about true justice...crime pays...the criminal justice system is a substantial part of the U.S. economy...jobs depend on it...political careers depend on it...promotions and raises depend on it... The guilty often go free... And the innocent are treated as guilty...found guilty or incarcerated... And then there is the fallacy of "innocent until proven guilty"...in the criminal justice system, it is "guilty until you prove your innocence"... I, for one, would like to see my tax dollars for cases such as this be dealt with in a more efficient and less costly manner, an alternative which is currently non-existent...a good analogy would be ICU versus outpatient care... From bibibwong at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 15:07:10 2008 From: bibibwong at hotmail.com (Bibi Wong) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:07:10 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable Message-ID: When a dance relies on the male to lead and female to follow in principle, female are more on the mercy of the men. Period. It does not have to be a teacher-student relationship. In communities where tangueras out-number tangueros and with very few accomplished tangueros, tangueras may find themselves being approached with unwanted sexual movements or invitations, or face with the potential that she would be "black-balled" in the future anymore. If it is not sexual harassment, I don't know what is. (I do not aware of a tango community that tangueros out-number tangueras. Educate me if I am wrong.) I know personally that such "sexual harassment" happens in Bs As, and in a few communities in Japan. (Astrid: may be not the case for you because you have been in your community for a long time, and are a hakugin....) The point I take home with, is that we should not be pinpointing at a specific case in Denver (although I recall that community having some colorful stories of dancers' relationships in the past), but to encourage anyone to stay alert and speak out. Argentine tango outside its motherland is patronized by the educated. It is ashamed that we cannot handle problems like educated people would have done. Bibi _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sat Apr 12 15:22:23 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:22:23 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak Up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48010BEF.3060803@lavidacondeby.com> I have not lived in the U.S. for almost 3 years. Those of you who know me, know that I live here in Buenos Aires. I started to dance tango I think 9 years ago. I was originally from California. When I read the news from the U.S. I am constantly amazed at how people use the court systems to settle what I would consider personal differences. From my vantage point, not only from reading the news, but looking at lists such as Tango-L, it appears that people in the U.S. have forgotten how to interact with each other on a personal level. It is much easier to go on the attack using whatever means one can: whether it be the Internet or a lawyer. I don't know Chas or any of the people involved. I do know many experiences of women who dance tango. On my first trip to Buenos Aires, my "teacher" tried to kiss me. I immediately pushed him away, took my things, and walked out. There was no way I would have another class with an idiot like that. It was not a question of strength or being afraid or being in a vulnerable position. I never saw myself as a victim. The guy acted like a jerk. He did apologize. But so what? It was never even a consideration to have another class with him. To do so, means that you accept this kind of behavior. Being advanced on in a tango class is not the same as your boss coming on to you, being jumped on the street, or your date getting you drunk and taking advantage. You have the power to say no and leave. Please do not tell me I am simplifying. This is a tango class. If the teacher forces you to have sex against your will,(And I do mean force) restrains you, this is rape. Inappropriate touching has a solution - you leave. You don't come back. Do you really need to go and sue the person? Is this what happens now? Someone touches you in a way that is inappropriate, so you sue them? You take them to court? You have them arrested? You ruin their life? Jeesh, this being the case, half of Buenos Aires would be in jail or never allowed back into the U.S. When I lived in the Bay Area there was a teacher there who had "affairs" with his students. All was well and fine, until the lovely ladies involved found out that they were not the only ones, all hell broke loose. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I have seen the same thing happen here in Buenos Aires. Over and over women come here. They attach to these piranhas in the milongas like they are Dancing Gods from heaven. All is well and good, until they find out, that they are not the only one. Then the Dancing God from heaven becomes a pariah to attack and punish. He done me wrong. Considering you had two people in a room with no witnesses, no one really knows the truth do they? Yes, it is not only the men who perpetrate this behavior, it is the women too. The difference being what guy is going to go" Oh I took her class, and then she tried to kiss me." Can you imagine a man taking his female tango teacher to court because she touched him in a class? I know men this has happened to. They either go with it, or they tell the woman, thank you but no thank you and avoid her. We want equality as women, but selectively, at and at times when it benefits us. Where did this intense need to flagellate, punish, and expose come from? As for Internet expose. To much of a good thing can be a bad thing. If you are going to expose someone publicly, you better make sure your own house is clean before you do so. From luv2dancetango at yahoo.com Sat Apr 12 19:51:39 2008 From: luv2dancetango at yahoo.com (Darlene Robertson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "For the Record" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <79746.30027.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Tango-L folks! This is to bring further clarification, particularly in response to 'Nancy' and her comment about me being on "record" as having found Chas Gale guilty before a verdict. For a more detailed version of my "very-shortened" explanation (if you are in the slightest bit interested) just go to the TangoColorado discussion list and search for it, the posting was sometime this past November under "My Question to Ruddy" (I think... it's been a while). To summarize: I called Chas a pervert. In public. While asking a question in front of a gathering of the TangoColorado membership. I referred to him as a "pervert" because that's what he became in my eyes AFTER being sentenced to probation in August 2007 for a prior indecent exposure incident. Also, he "fits" the definition. I did not "find him guilty" of this latest incident for which he was recently convicted and for which I posted to this Discussion List this past week under the subject line "Speak up if you're uncomfortable". Now, bygolly, the whole damn world should understand the man has, in my eyes, gone from being "pretty frikkin' weird" to being a Convicted Sexual Offender... i.e. a "pervert". Does that clarify my opinion of him? Darlene __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Sat Apr 12 18:08:25 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:08:25 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Good advice from Milena Plebs Message-ID: <003101c89d02$76f59300$b98f3dc8@JANIS> Trusting and giving oneself by Milena Plebs Upon finding ourselves in the embrace of tango we engage our body, we involve ourselves at a physical level and we are vulnerable. There is an intense exchange of energy between both participants and hygiene plays a fundamental role when sharing this dance. Historically milongueros have always been immaculate people careful with their personal appearance. They are very conscious of the importance of their composure and of smelling good when getting ready to face a night of tango embraces. To share this dance of two, it is important to follow certain codes that should be communicated: neatness, fresh breath, absence of body odors and excessive perspiration. The main reason for social dancing is to share it with someone else, to enjoy together and to please the person embracing us. There is an issue of trust and of giving oneself. With each tanda we welcome a new dance companion. We offer our bodies in a total and intense way, committing hearing, sight, touch and smell. Therefore we need for the embrace to smell good in addition to being good. Body odors will bring down the quality of a good male or female dancer in an instant. Perhaps in other countries this situation is lived differently, perhaps in other cultures it is not a problem. But we are speaking of Argentine tango, where the embrace can be very close, and neatness and good aroma are fundamental. Personal care and being meticulous about our appearance is part of the culture in the Rio de la Plata. We may bathe even more than once a day; we use perfumes, deodorant, colognes, mouthwashes. Caught up in the enjoyment and the enthusiasm of dancing, at times we do not notice that we are soaked in sweat. That is why, out of respect for others, some people that sweat a lot, carry clothes to changed into, or they let a tanda go by without dancing to get dry and to be refreshed. Also there are men that carry a handkerchief in their left hand to avoid the contact of perspiring hands. Although I speak from my female point of view, this subject applies to both genders. Men or women-we all should pay attention to this. It is not so difficult: shower, deodorant, clean clothes, a mint in the mouth and, if possible, not to expose ourselves to the "exotic" odor of frying food that stays in clothes and hair. A dry and pleasant smelling embrace is definitely a good start. And everybody else will be really grateful. Copyright ? El Tangauta 2008 From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Sat Apr 12 22:42:33 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:42:33 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Message-ID: <20080413023835.4B5F6235230@p3fed1.frb.org> What is missing from many demonstrations of social tango is elegance of movement. Whether called close-embrace or milonguero-style tango, the social-tango "movement" in the United States eschewed elegance of movement to emphasize rhythm, improvisation and navigation skills. Elegance of movement may have been deemphaiszed as a element of show dancing or to concentrate on other skills. Of course, inelegant movement need not be a characteristic of social dancing, as many Argentine teachers frequently demonstrate. The deemphasis of elegance may have led to a greater democratization of tango and participation in the United States than otherwise would have occurred. Because the milonguero-style tango movement is now more than a decade old, it is natural to think that dancers will introduce changes--either through more complicated (nuevo) elements or more refined movement. Both are happening. With best regards, Steve From romerob at telusplanet.net Sat Apr 12 23:39:12 2008 From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:39:12 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] elements of an elegant tango Message-ID: <1208057952.4801806074cc8@webmail.telus.net> What are the elements of an elegant tango in close embrace Tango dance? my 2 cents: - Maintaining good posture throughout the dance. - Avoid zigzagging and the use of shoddy feet. - Demonstrate precision, softness, and emotion in the execution of figures. - Keeping the upper body straight and the buttocks tucked in. - Avoiding the use of: salsa hips, up-and-down shoulder movement, open hand, etc. - Not getting caught dancing with open legs. - Avoid over-flexing the knees. From keith at tangohk.com Sun Apr 13 00:43:16 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:43:16 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video Message-ID: <49579.1208061796@tangohk.com> On Sun Apr 13 10:42 , Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org sent: >What is missing from many demonstrations of social tango is elegance of >movement. Whether called close-embrace or milonguero-style tango, the >social-tango "movement" in the United States eschewed elegance of movement >to emphasize rhythm, improvisation and navigation skills. Elegance of >movement may have been deemphaiszed as a element of show dancing or to >concentrate on other skills. Thank you Stephen, I agree completely. A Tango teacher doesn't need to be particularly elegant to be a good teacher, although I think it helps and a social dancer doesn't need to be particulary elegant to give his/her partner a satisfying dance although, again, I think it helps. But to those who stand up in front of an audience to demonstrate this beautiful dance of ours - if there's no elegance then something is definitely missing. IMHO elegance is an integral part of good Tango, including purely social Tango. But I know many people on this list don't agree. Fair enough. Keith, HK From keith at tangohk.com Sun Apr 13 00:45:46 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:45:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: <49602.1208061946@tangohk.com> Isn't this about as far OFF-TOPIC as we can possibly get? On Sun Apr 13 2:51 , "Alex" sent: >A side note to the side show... > From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 13 10:39:16 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:39:16 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable OFF-TOPIC In-Reply-To: <49602.1208061946@tangohk.com> References: <49602.1208061946@tangohk.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:45:46 -0400, you wrote: >Isn't this about as far OFF-TOPIC as we can possibly get? > > > On Sun Apr 13 2:51 , "Alex" sent: > >>A side note to the side show... Not at all... I think it's right on. That is, if a discussion about what is in the courts regarding Tango is on topic, then remarks about the courts and the legal system that will resolve the case, and why it was so resolved, should be just as welcome. That is the Tango List 'on topic' connection for Alex's post and to that below.... If you were in the U.S. you might understand better that what everything Alex said is correct... Until fairly recently (20-30 years?).., lawyers could not advertise themselves in this country. They had to gain clients through their own reputations. Their ability to win cases for their clients. Word of mouth, iow... Then things were changed. There are seemingly many reasons... None good. Lawyers were permitted to advertise themselves... Now they have become what I refer to as vultures and maggots with the T.V. ads they produce..., hoping to suck up every gullible person they can, take their money, and then dump them..., to go looking for another gullible money source. They do this quick turnover thing by always going for the 'usually always offered' plea bargains. No worry about their clients being guilty or not guilty. Just get what they can get retainer wise and move on quickly. I'm sure there are exceptions.., but with human nature being what it is.., they're few and far between. The prosecutor causes most of this because he wants a kill... It doesn't have to be real, or a large one... They go for quantity not quality. In the first place, plea bargains seem to me to be an admission that the prosecutor knows he doesn't have a winnable case.. So when anyone is arrested on any 'shaky' charge..., the plea bargain option as an alternative to a possible, and in many cases highly unlikely conviction, is offered as an 'easy way out'. All one has to do is admit to doing something they didn't do. Threatened to confess in a way nearly as effective as torture. And usually accompanied by a promise of a relatively light penalty to make it even easier to accept. The prosecutor has his 'record' (number of cases won over number lost) improved.., the lawyer does a quick turn around and makes some bucks doing nothing.., and the hapless victim now has a factual 'criminal' record of admitting 'guilt' to *something*... Something he did not do. To accomplish this.., the prosecutors will keep lawyers waiting in the lobby for hours and hours., if not days and days, before calling their case to go before the judge..., if the lawyer does not comply with his demand to get the client to cop a plea. They lawyers must push for this or they go broke sitting on their butts. The victem now has a record, and if by chance he is ever brought up on a similar charge. Which is very likely in certain occupations where p/i in its many forms has become prevalent. Photographers of nude women, artists who portray what is seen by some as pornographic, and I guess maybe Tango instructors too? Not to mention a thousand other occupations. The second time he has no option. He cannot cop a plea again. None will be offered. And.., his previous guilty plea to a cop out will most likely be used against him. Showing that he has a 'record', admitted guilt then, and surely must be guilty now. It's all a game you see. This country is building a penal system that will be the envy of every dictator the world has ever seen.., past, present and future. They have more people in jail in the U.S. now than any other country has ever had in theirs. Prisons are being built in record numbers. Various forns of law enforcement and criminal justice have become the the top choices, or very near it, for courses to be taken at colleges around the country. This is where the jobs are now.., and are projected to increase dramatically in the near future. This country needs to create industry..., eh? It has allowed most manufacturing and 'real' jobs to be shipped off shore.., but the economy must be maintained somehow. In my opinion, plea bargains should not be allowed. They are a souce of corruption. Merely a means to gain some kind of conviction..., but a conviction none the less. I don't know anyone connected with the situation under discussion and I'm not making judgements or advising anyone in particular... But for those who can afford a non-corruptable laywer, fighting charges certainly seem the best way to go no matter what the cost. Fight for aquittal. Make them work for their numbers. Better than changing occupations. Better than committing yourself to a criminal record for something not done. Then, if possible, to perhaps counter sue when found not guilty? Just to keep *everyone* honest, you know? ;0) Just an opinon... INAL... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sun Apr 13 19:08:34 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:08:34 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Mercy of men? Message-ID: <48029272.1030800@lavidacondeby.com> I have never been at the mercy of any man, except maybe my father when I was not allowed to go out on a school night. How interesting to say this as a woman: When a dance relies on the male to lead and female to follow in principle, female are more on the mercy of the men. Period. Bibbi Wong In what social partner dance does a follower not rely on the lead? Social dances have been traditionally - man leads - woman follows. Ballroom, salsa, cumbia, swing, and sigh...tango. I have to say that I agree with Felix. Tango allows a woman and a man to be just that - a woman and a man. American culture IMHO has emasculated men. They are afraid to celebrate us as women for fear of being branded. Women are more intent on being equal, being better than a man, rather than just being spectacular as women. I never understood in business women who wanted act like men. Why not be better - as a woman acting like a woman? I worked for more than 23 years in a male dominated profession. I carried my own computers. I hacked my own code. I never expected any man to do my job for me. I never once felt compromised as a woman. I never once felt the need to dress like a guy to be treated like one. Clients used to laugh at me hauling computers to another floor in heels. The computers got moved. That was the point. The job got done. The same for me in tango. I never once felt the way I dressed would brand me as a prostitute. I never once felt the need to dress in either direction - baggy pants, covered from the neck down, and those horrible dance sneakers or in dresses way too tight - meant for someone half my age tottering on heels too high. In the milongas here I am considered elegant, as always. My appearance is important to me. It always has been. This is true of all my Argentine women friends. They take pride in how they look. We want the men to dance with us. I do not dance with women. I have no desire to lead. Tango for me is a dance between a man and a woman. I have never once felt compromised as a woman or at the mercy of a man because I am a follower and I must wait to be invited to dance. The anticipation, the seduction, is all part of the tango. If I am invited to dance to music I love with a man who can, I am thrilled. If I sit the whole night with no dances in the company of good friends, sharing a bottle of champagne and friendship, I feel blessed. Why does everything have to be about winning? Why does everything have to be a contest? Why does everything have to be something or someone against something or someone? Why can't people relax and just enjoy. There is something about the Argentine mentality of live for today that makes life so nice here. Men vs Women, Leader vs Follower, Nuevo vs Traditional, cross in front vs cross in back. Why oh why cannot you people understand that tango is not about sexual harassment, badly dressed people, and a battle of the sexes. It is a social dance. From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 21:10:11 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What's Flaco Danny doing here? Message-ID: <888187.88689.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBmaWzYN-Pc This video shows Flaco Danny Garcia dancing to a slow tango. We know that he is a bonified Milonguero and is dancing in close embrace. At times he is opening his embrace so that Luna Palacios can do a figure or two. Hi is beginning his walking by going outside cross footed until Luna crosses to parallel. I would appreciate some opinons on; is he using a 'V' embrace? They do not seem to be dancing straight-on apilado. If it is a 'V' embrace, is it because it looks better and is it also easier to do? If it's easier to do than straight-on apilado, should the 'V' be considered as an alternative for those who find the other super difficult? All opinions appreciated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob.ramsey-turner at quicksilver.net.nz Sun Apr 13 22:32:27 2008 From: bob.ramsey-turner at quicksilver.net.nz (Crown Associates Ltd) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:32:27 +1200 Subject: [Tango-L] Wheres Tete? Robert Message-ID: <20080414023228.27502.qmail@drone4.qsi.net.nz> From keith at tangohk.com Sun Apr 13 23:36:17 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:36:17 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] What's Flaco Danny doing here? Message-ID: <49666.1208144177@tangohk.com> Hi Mario, My advice would be ... don't make the mistake of many and become fixated on a particular style or way of dancing Tango. Guys like El Flaco Dani can dance Tango pretty much any way they want. Mostly they dance in close embrace with a slight V-shape but they'll change a little to suit the partner, music, floor condition, their mood and the occasion. Dani is dancing differently here, doing a demonstration, than he would in a crowded milonga. Check out this video of Dani dancing a milonga where he includes an underarm turn. I wonder what some of the purists on this list will have to say about that :-). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag5z84IzF-I&feature=related Keith, HK On Mon Apr 14 9:10 , Mario sent: >http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=GBmaWzYN-Pc > > This video shows Flaco Danny Garcia dancing to a slow tango. > We know that he is a bonified Milonguero and is dancing in close embrace. > At times he is opening his embrace so that Luna Palacios can do a figure or two. > Hi is beginning his walking by going outside cross footed until Luna crosses to parallel. > I would appreciate some opinons on; is he using a 'V' embrace? They do not seem to > be dancing straight-on apilado. If it is a 'V' embrace, is it because it looks better and > is it also easier to do? If it's easier to do than straight-on apilado, should the 'V' be > considered as an alternative for those who find the other super difficult? > All opinions appreciated. > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From sopelote at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 23:59:35 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing outside crossed footed on follow's left Message-ID: <454409.7498.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH5T3POVjQY Here are Gustavo and Maria doing a beautiful tango to some beautiful music. I am noticing that whenever a performance (by many couples) contains the lead walking outside left cross footed, it invariably occurs only in the beginning of the dance and especially when navigating the first corner of the room (left turn of course) then it's over. I have noticed this because this particular passage is perhaps my favorite to watch. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this and would maybe conjecture as to why? I'm thinking that it's is such an unusual passage that unless it only occurs early when both are ready for it, it could cause some awkwardness...just my guess. Anyway, I really like how this movement looks and am looking forward to the day when I can do it, too. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 14 09:21:17 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:21:17 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Atlanta Tango Festival Video In-Reply-To: <49579.1208061796@tangohk.com> References: <49579.1208061796@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <48035A4D.8040106@sgi.com> Keith wrote: > IMHO elegance > is an integral part of good Tango, including purely social Tango. Yup. And another thing, too, at least for me: a lack of obviousness. One of the charms of tango is that it's an improvisational dance, and somehow I'm lessthan thrilled if I can guess everything a minute (or at worst three) in advance. *Especially* if you do a demo, it shouldn't appear as if you (*and* your dance partner) were running on autopilot on a crowded dance floor. By the way, complication isn't a lack of obviousness: autopilot can happen with very complicated routines rehearsed to death as well as with simple ones. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Mon Apr 14 13:22:25 2008 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:22:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Bibi Wong, Surplus Tanguera Myth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bibi wrote: " not aware of a tango community that tangueros out-number tangueras. Educate me if I am wrong." I am beginning to suspect this oft repeated refrain is a female ruse to keep other women out of tango. Well, since you asked, Bibi... In NYC, at most of the milongas by about 11pm, you will count more men than women sitting waiting for a dance. At the few where there are more women intitally, just arrive a bit later, by mid milonga you will again count way more men than women. I dance on average 6 or 7 nights per week. It is easy to check out one or more milongas and practicas on my way home. If I come without my partner and see a ratio of 2: 1 or more extra men sitting around, my entrada stays in my pocket I do a rebote out the door faster than you can say "change of direction." Might be interesting to post continuing ratio statistics on a blog or facebook, in a world of perfect information access one would think the discrepancies would even out. But so far they havent. Hey, tango expenses add up, people, and you have to weigh the value of one private lesson versus 5 milongas where you sit around a lot. If you are coming to nyc Bibi, Email me and I will tell you which milongas have lots of men sitting around. A side benefit for you, due to Darwin's laws of natural selection and competition for scarce resources, you will find that there are more advanced leaders than there are advanced followers in NYC. From gltango at verizon.net Mon Apr 14 14:15:05 2008 From: gltango at verizon.net (gltango) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:15:05 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Milongas in Madrid Spain Message-ID: <48039F29.8060007@verizon.net> Hi, I will be traveling to Madrid Spain the week of May 11th and would like some recommendations for Milongas. thanks Greg From bibibwong at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 15:36:50 2008 From: bibibwong at hotmail.com (Bibi Wong) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:36:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera Message-ID: I was delighted to be educated by a few good people from Tango-L on the places where male dancers count is higher than the female count. Interesting that some of them concurred with the common phenomenon that the level of the minority group may need room for improvements. To answer Martin's concern about my message being a ruse, I would recommend him to please relax. I posted with a jaded observation, no ulterior motive. Because Bibi is a harmless tanguara who has left the dance scene many years ago. So I don't care if women are in or out tango, being bold or not bold on their attitude. I have replied to Martin privately on the detailed reason of my departure to appeace with his unfound suspicion, and to stop further escalation of unfound insinuation on the board. Let's discuss the subjects that are more productive and educational, shall we? If any members know of other communities that consistently have more male dancers than female, I welcome your reply. If I ever get back into the dance scene, I will certainly check them out first! Thanks to all, beso! Bibi > Bibi wrote: " not aware of a tango community that tangueros out-number> tangueras. Educate me if I am wrong."> I am beginning to suspect this oft repeated refrain is a female ruse to> keep other women out of tango. _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008 From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Apr 14 19:00:18 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:00:18 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Bibi Wong, Surplus Tanguera Myth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66D80ABBF4F5485F901543D4619FE3C0@homePC> > Bibi wrote: " not aware of a tango community that tangueros out-number > tangueras. Educate me if I am wrong." > I am beginning to suspect this oft repeated refrain is a female ruse to > keep other women out of tango. > > Well, since you asked, Bibi... In NYC, .... And NYC obviously stands for the rest of the world? I once went on a tango week in Cancun, Mexico, with people from Argentina and Canada and it was about 7 men and 28 women. And then some of the men got sick... From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Apr 14 19:05:10 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:05:10 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54509662D9DB44AF99F3EB7871A57033@homePC> > If any members know of other communities that consistently have more male > dancers than female, I welcome your reply. If I ever get back into the > dance scene, I will certainly check them out first. > Bibi >> Bibi wrote: " not aware of a tango community that tangueros out-number> >> tangueras. Educate me if I am wrong."> I am beginning to suspect this oft >> repeated refrain is a female ruse to> keep other women out of tango. There are two other places like that that I have ever heard of. One is in Boston and the other somewhere in New Zealand... From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Mon Apr 14 23:54:06 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:54:06 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera Message-ID: <480426DE.000017.01112@OEM-COMPUTER> > There are two other places like that that I have ever heard of. One is in > Boston and the other somewhere in New Zealand... Hi, well I'm sure there are places somewhere here in New Zealand with more men than women dancing Tango, but my experience over the last 10 years is the reverse. I live in Auckland, the largest city, and my impression is that the same applies elsewhere here as well, more women than men at the milonga! (usually). Just like so many other places on the planet. Except of course Boston, but I have not been there. Bye, Mel. From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Mon Apr 14 23:58:36 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:58:36 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] The pure tango of Osvaldo Centeno, El Oso Message-ID: <005201c89eac$fb569c60$be8f3dc8@JANIS> He danced in El Beso on February 11. The videos were on YouTube on March 23. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzhf8ZatcNM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJLX7OA8Pg From benoit.degentile at iter.org Tue Apr 15 04:03:39 2008 From: benoit.degentile at iter.org (Benoit de Gentile) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:03:39 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? In-Reply-To: <20080410141513.8DVYG.132866.root@fepweb16> Message-ID: David, I recommand you to watch this video that I discovered yesterday: Lucia Mazer and Ezequiel Farfaro dancing to Sober Clown by Roesy: I did not check whether someone already post it. Best regards, Benoit, Aix-en-Provence, FR From keith at tangohk.com Tue Apr 15 04:29:41 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:29:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? Message-ID: <50977.1208248181@tangohk.com> Last time I checked, quite a while ago, this had been taken off YouTube but I just came across it again. This is my favourite. http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Cy6jHnhf4&feature=related Keith, HK From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 09:50:41 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing outside crossed footed on follow's left Message-ID: <575946.51569.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, I found a video of Shastro dancing outside crossed footed in various places in this piece. http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=V4CebSBIsTU He is quite an adroit dancer and introducing this movement adds a lot of variety to the normal outside right dancing that we see so much of.. I like outside left, I just can't wait to try it.. but first I have to find a regular practice partner ..etc etc between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99 From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 09:54:23 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Cadencia - Ney + Jennifer Message-ID: <291225.49239.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is a videoof Ney Melo dancing an example of good Cadencia This video is a favorite of a friend in Portland, Kimo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT6GFCiuvuM between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99 From brick at fastpack.com Tue Apr 15 13:00:47 2008 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:00:47 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: Another community with too many men (or more accurately, not enough women) is San Diego. During prime time at one of our more popular milongas recently, with maybe 40 couples on the floor, I counted 10 men sitting out. This doesn't mean that *every* milonga is leader heavy, but it has become so typical, that at event recently, a woman complained that it was"follow heavy." I counted, and discovered that there was actually one extra man in the room. This causes some interesting problems. Most men I know prefer to hear the beginning of the Tanda before choosing a follower. In this environment, if a man wishes to dance he must obtain a follower before the cortina ends, so couples often end up dancing to music that they might prefer not to. Also the cabeceo becomes problematic, because by the time one makes eye contact, another leader has verbally asked her to dance. Sometimes the cortinas take on appearance of a feeding frenzy, with 3 or 4 men standing around each of the better followers, with the follower begging for the chance to rest. I once found a follower sitting behind the counter in the kitchen, hiding. She said she just wanted to rest a bit without having to turn down someone every 30 seconds. And as an interesting aside, we have a Tango Studio in town which primarily teaches "cool moves" and "patterns" and has several "in house" milongas every week. For whatever reason, not many of their students or teachers join us in the general community, nor do the members of the community often attend their milongas. That studio's milongas have an excess of women. From dchester at charter.net Tue Apr 15 14:00:37 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:00:37 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080415140037.QRND5.61105.root@fepweb02> Benoit, Thanks for posting this. Here's another one from the same couple that I like as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJBwxD188GI Regards, David ---- Benoit de Gentile wrote: > David, > > I recommand you to watch this video that I discovered yesterday: > > Lucia Mazer and Ezequiel Farfaro dancing to Sober Clown by Roesy: > > > I did not check whether someone already post it. > > Best regards, > > Benoit, Aix-en-Provence, FR > > From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Tue Apr 15 13:26:15 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:26:15 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] A different entrada at a Buenos Aires milonga Message-ID: <002d01c89f22$a3d7c330$a78f3dc8@JANIS> While most milonga entradas are increasing in Buenos Aires, there is one organizer who is doing something different. Celia Blanco, owner of Lo de Celia, has set aside one Wednesday per month for food donations to help the needy. Instead of paying the five peso entrada, dancers donate nonperishable food items. They are collected and shipped to an organization for distribution. Celia usually designates the third Wednesday of the month for this purpose, however, this month it will take place on April 23. Those of you who attend the milonga will want to know in advance. Celia Tango Club Humberto Primo 1783 y Entre Rios Wednesdays 18 a 23hs reservations: 15-4945-2678 Dario (14,30-18,30hs.) From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 15 14:04:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This causes some interesting problems. > if a man wishes to dance he must obtain a follower before the cortina > ends, so couples often end up dancing to music that they might prefer > not to. Curtains work where the dancers' primary concern is the music - such dancers choose the music first, and the dancer second - to fit the recommendation of the music. You've described a group for whom the music is secondary, so no surprise at all that here the curtain's effect is actually detrimental. It's created a situation which favours partner seekers less interested in the music, and over time this easily becomes a self-reinforcing effect. The root cause is a DJ that plays a curtain because "its the done thing" rather than being sensitive to whether it's effect is positive or negative in that particular milonga. The DJ could stop using a curtain. Then after every tanda, the dancers will hear what the next music is before there's time for invitations. Or he could keep the curtain but soon after the start, play a blip from the intro of the forthcoming track. Many will get it - the ones that don't are probably those who have no interest in the music anyway. > And as an interesting aside, we have a Tango Studio in town which > primarily teaches "cool moves" and "patterns" ... That studio's > milongas have an excess of women. I think it more or less universal that the worse the social tango teaching, the greater the number of women relative to men. Whereas most women take so little from classes, the men receive the full force of them and hence are much more vulnerable to discouragement from bad teaching. -- Chris From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 15 14:32:30 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:32:30 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: <20080415182842.DE867235A0D@p3fed1.frb.org> Brick Robbins wrote: >Another community with too many men (or more accurately, not enough >women) is San Diego. ... >And ... , we have a Tango Studio in town which >primarily teaches "cool moves" and "patterns" and has several "in >house" milongas every week. For whatever reason, not many of their >students or teachers join us in the general community, nor do the >members of the community often attend their milongas. That studio's >milongas have an excess of women. So, one might more accurately claim that the distribution of men and women isn't even across milongas in San Diego. Let's look at tango instruction as a filter, rather than purely instructional. Achieving a balance between men and women requires instruction that appeals equally to both genders. Maybe one couple can do that, but maybe a mix of instructors appealing to different groups of people can generate a better balance within a community. Now, if we could only get those people to attend the same milonga. :-) Steve From spatz at tangoDC.com Tue Apr 15 15:32:54 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:32:54 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480502E6.1020301@tangoDC.com> > Brick Robbins wrote: >> if a man wishes to dance he must obtain a follower before the cortina ends, so couples often end up dancing to music that they might prefer not to. >> > [Chris replied:] > The root cause is a DJ that plays a curtain because "its the done thing" rather than being sensitive to whether it's effect is positive or negative in that particular milonga. > Actually, I believe the root cause is a DJ who plays music which people don't want to dance to. The cortina has nothing to do with that. Jake From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 16:48:03 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:48:03 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] My very favorite video in all of YouTube... yours? In-Reply-To: <20080415140037.QRND5.61105.root@fepweb02> References: <20080415140037.QRND5.61105.root@fepweb02> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:00 AM, David wrote: > Benoit wrote: > > > > David, > > > > I recommand you to watch this video that I discovered yesterday: > > > > Lucia Mazer and Ezequiel Farfaro dancing to Sober Clown by Roesy: > > Et tu, Ezequiel, one of my favorite young dancers? "Sober Clown?" What utter crap. His dancing goes with that music like a fish with a bicycle. > Thanks for posting this. Here's another one from the same couple that I like as well. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJBwxD188GI That's more like it. Huck From brick at fastpack.com Tue Apr 15 16:54:05 2008 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:54:05 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: Chris, UK wrote >>You've described a group for whom the music is secondary, so no surprise at all that here the curtain's effect is actually detrimental.<< Actually I've described a group of men who want to dance. They do care about the music, They care about the music a lot. But if the men wait for the music to start, there are no followers left to dance with, and they sit. Once they get a partner they enjoy, they will often hang onto her for several Tandas, and eventually get music they like. This contributes the feeding frenzy when one of these women becomes available. >> The root cause is a DJ that plays a curtain because "its the done thing" rather than being sensitive to whether it's effect is positive or negative in that particular milonga.The DJ could stop using a curtain. Then after every tanda, the dancers will hear what the next music is before there's time for invitations.<< So you are suggesting that the DJ should ignore the Tango customs and codas that members of this list, and Tangueros world wide, hold so dear? That some resident of the United States should ignore the wisdom of the Milongueros of BsAs and try to improve upon or "Amercianize" the way things are done in Argentina? Wow.... From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 15 17:42:55 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:42:55 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4805215F.5070502@sgi.com> Brick Robbins wrote: > > So you are suggesting that the DJ should ignore the Tango customs and > codas that members of this list, and Tangueros world wide, hold so > dear? > I don't hold them so dear that I feel a calling as a guardian of orthodoxy, and I'm a member of the list (and happen to live in this world, too). Different social context, different customs. Or are you in favour of men in black customes cracking the whip each time someone asks someone else to dance instead of using the cabeceo? As I said the last time that kind of discussion, tandas are perfectly clear even *without* cortinas if you wish not to use them (if you have a set of four valses and then a long intro for something that is *evidently* not a vals and you don't get the point, no amount of hitting you over the head with a cluebat will help - I have used cortinas and seen some people dance "tango" on them, despite my attempts at making it as awkward as I could possibly do). The number of Argentines that have lamented the lack of cortinas when I happened to play music without using them can be counted on the fingers of zero hands. I have had complaints, but only of non-Argentineans wanting to overargentine the Argentineans. > That some resident of the United States should ignore the wisdom of > the Milongueros of BsAs Argument by authority. By the way, I dispute the fact that customs are, by definition, something "wise" to be worshipped regardless of consequences (and regardless of the social context). They're customs, not rites, unless you're seeing tango as a religion rather than as the social dance it is (even for those wise Argentines that live and breathe it). and try to improve upon or "Amercianize" the > way things are done in Argentina? Oh, and I'm not American - and in case you missed it, neither is Chris. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From musettefan at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 17:50:50 2008 From: musettefan at yahoo.com (musette fan) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <171403.79106.qm@web53512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I don't know the tango scene in San Diego, but I've danced in NYC and wonder if in general at least some of the women have fled precisely because of the intense aggressive energy, and a certain lack of respect or boundaries, if you will. (Also, we shouldn't confuse quantity with quality of leaders--no offense.) The cabaceo-less "feeding frenzy" or meat market environment where women have to hide sounds seriously uncivilized and unpleasant. I can totally understand why women would avoid it, which just further increases the imbalance. Terri --- Brick Robbins wrote: > Another community with too many men (or more accurately, not enough > women) is San Diego. > > During prime time at one of our more popular milongas recently, with > maybe 40 couples on the floor, I counted 10 men sitting out. > > This doesn't mean that *every* milonga is leader heavy, but it has > become so typical, that at event recently, a woman complained that it > was"follow heavy." I counted, and discovered that there was actually > one extra man in the room. > > This causes some interesting problems. > > Most men I know prefer to hear the beginning of the Tanda before > choosing a follower. In this environment, if a man wishes to dance he > must obtain a follower before the cortina ends, so couples often end > up dancing to music that they might prefer not to. Also the cabeceo > becomes problematic, because by the time one makes eye contact, > another leader has verbally asked her to dance. > > Sometimes the cortinas take on appearance of a feeding frenzy, with 3 > or 4 men standing around each of the better followers, with the > follower begging for the chance to rest. I once found a follower > sitting behind the counter in the kitchen, hiding. She said she just > wanted to rest a bit without having to turn down someone every 30 > seconds. > > And as an interesting aside, we have a Tango Studio in town which > primarily teaches "cool moves" and "patterns" and has several "in > house" milongas every week. For whatever reason, not many of their > students or teachers join us in the general community, nor do the > members of the community often attend their milongas. That studio's > milongas have an excess of women. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 15 18:37:46 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:37:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Leader's only class. Message-ID: <97ba04144m2ambvh7gdcen0o5s1rheu4rd@4ax.com> There were five leaders. Four men and one woman... I taught open embrace minus the embrace. No hands tango. I taught to *expect* that the follower will be exactly where they're supposed to be after any given step, if they get the proper lead.. Then came the leads for the leader to tell the follower what steps to take, by themselves, under their own power, balance, and direction. That a physical frame for moving the lady around is not really needed. Although it sure feels nicer... Of course if the lady has her eyes closed, she will need a 'frame'. But it must be kept in perspective. I taught the leaders to give the lead and then follow it. Placing their feet confidently, to be able to go on to the next move with no 'modifications' needed... (because the follower wasn't where she should have been), and to keep the beat or syncopation they have going in their heads as the only timing necessary to their steps. Because the follower should be listening too. To be working to allow and aid all of this to be easily done. I taught that the followers should be working just as hard at maintaining their part of the dance as the leader does his. 'Centered', posture, and readiness for whatever was next. I taught that one dances with Tango. Not with another 'person'... Just the dance itself. Tango stands between the partners. It's the reason physical appearances, heights, weights, even disagreeable odors are tollerated in a partner. As long as that partner understands Tango and is able to do their part well. It is the dance that is most important. Everyone seemed to understand what we had to say. Except perhaps one man with 6 months of Tango learned in another city. He asked, 'What about those who want to be an 'active' follower?' That's not quite as bad as 'military intelligence', but it is the first thing that came to mind. My second thought was that followers are able to be as active as they wish. Accepting or rejecting invitations, embellishing, timing, etc... But only that which stays within the confines of the leader's plan. Else they will both very likely end up on the floor. Btw.., the leads were taught as done with an open frame. That's more understandable to a new person.., and to those previously taught they need to remember instead of imagine. But the ideas are still there, with some minor adjustments, when doing close embrace. 1 Follower to stay absolutely centered with the leader in whatever position they elect to dance... Flat on, V, v, open, etc... It is the follower's job to stay there. 2 Distance. The space between the parterns that the follower chose at the start of the dance. It is the followers job to keep it. Leads 3 and 4 often work together or alternate in doing the same job.... 3 Offset Parallel Shoulders. Shoulders may be used as a lead to pivot the axis to a new direction, or not.., depending on the step. Partner's shoulders can be flat-on while doing a linear grapevine. Not a lead. Shoulders can be used to pivot the follower back and forth while standing still. A lead. 4 Extended arm. The extended arm pivots the follower when the shoulders do not. All in all this lead is probably only used to lead between 10 to 15 percent of the dance steps taken. It is not needed for forward, backward, or side steps to the side of the non weight bearing foot. It is only needed for lateral moves that require a pivot to forward or backward to be done. And many of those are led by the shoulders instead. Of course the combining of these various leads when and where possible, makes everything work even nicer. I understand this is all very basic and some will say I've left a lot out. Of course I have. It was only the first *hour* of Tango instruction. The rest is in our online lessons. Instruction to enable using what is going on in each of the dancers heads and minds, step by step, instead of trying to pull off perfect looking patterns that both have learned by rote. I have learned too from this experimental lesson... I do see that leader classes CAN be 'couples'. They will likely be even more 'neutral' than taxi followers... Just never teach a 'sequence' to a follower. Only single leads, to both at once. To lead, or be led by, as the case may be. Let the leader experiment with them direction wise. Later provide the leaders with short non standard step sequences to see if he can bring the lady through them, without them knowning what is coming. Later, to get into the more expected moves that are done by most... Again only showing them to the leaders only. There's much more to say of course. But this is long enough. I'm happy enough knowing they understood what I was saying, and liked it. Tango on... Floyd... Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 15 18:52:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jake wrote: >>> couples often end up dancing to music that they might prefer not to. > Actually, I believe the root cause is a DJ who plays music which people > don't want to dance to. I've never met a good DJ that doesn't play some music that some people don't want to dance to. Nor a good dancer that dances every number. Brick wrote: > Actually I've described a group of men who want to dance. > They do care about the music, They care about the music a lot. > if the men wait for the music to start, there are no followers > left to dance with, and they sit. Then perhaps the members of your music-caring guy-only group should be dancing with each other. ;) Meanwhile, the group I referred was the guys /and/ /girls/ whom, by your own account, don't care enough about the music to wait for the guy that does. They pays their money and they takes their choice. > So you are suggesting that the DJ should ignore the Tango customs and > codas that members of this list, and Tangueros world wide, hold so dear? Yup! ;) In a milonga where people already ignoring the music when inviting, it won't help for the DJ impose yet more customs to be ignored! ;) -- Chris From imhmedia at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 21:10:26 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:10:26 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48055202.9010406@yahoo.com> Brick... you don't choose a partner during the cortina...the cortina gives you time to leave the floor, sit down, re-adjust and look around to see who you might want to make contact with for the next tanda. When the music starts, the leaders will then choose a follower (with whom he likes to dance to that orquesta) , and if he's lucky, she'll choose him. It is very common to have partners that you like to dance with for milonga, for example, but not for tango or vals, or vice versa. So, typically, in BsAs clubs, you wait until the music starts before choosing a partner. It works very well. Brick Robbins wrote: >Chris, UK wrote > > > >>>You've described a group for whom the music >>> >>> >is secondary, so no surprise at all that here the curtain's effect is >actually detrimental.<< > >Actually I've described a group of men who want to dance. > >They do care about the music, They care about the music a lot. > >But if the men wait for the music to start, there are no followers >left to dance with, and they sit. > >Once they get a partner they enjoy, they will often hang onto her for >several Tandas, and eventually get music they like. This contributes >the feeding frenzy when one of these women becomes available. > > > >>>The root cause is a DJ that plays a curtain >>> >>> >because "its the done thing" rather than being sensitive to whether it's >effect is positive or negative in that particular milonga.The DJ could >stop using a curtain. >Then after every tanda, the dancers >will hear what the next music is before there's time for invitations.<< > >So you are suggesting that the DJ should ignore the Tango customs and >codas that members of this list, and Tangueros world wide, hold so >dear? > >That some resident of the United States should ignore the wisdom of >the Milongueros of BsAs and try to improve upon or "Amercianize" the >way things are done in Argentina? > >Wow.... >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From tempehuck at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:58:42 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:58:42 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Chris, UK wrote: > Jake wrote: > >>> couples often end up dancing to music that they might prefer not to. > > Actually, I believe the root cause is a DJ who plays music which people > > don't want to dance to. > > I've never met a good DJ that doesn't play some music that some people > don't want to dance to. Nor a good dancer that dances every number. There's the key right there. > Brick wrote: > > So you are suggesting that the DJ should ignore the Tango customs and > > codas that members of this list, and Tangueros world wide, hold so dear? > > Yup! ;) In a milonga where people already ignoring the music when inviting, > it won't help for the DJ impose yet more customs to be ignored! ;) I don't see how even further eroding what makes a milonga a milonga is helpful. I must ask, has San Diego really sunk this low, where women have to hide to get away from the feeding frenzy? Have the men no self-esteem? Or the women, for that matter, who allow all this to happen instead of setting reasonable boundaries. I've seen similar behavior in situations elsewhere where the ratio is the opposite and women lose all self-respect and prey on the men like this, trying to grab them for the next tanda before the men have even escorted their current partner back to her table. I for one do not give in to that sort of rude behavior, because it only encourages more of it. I'll tell you what my guy friends and I do here in Phoenix when the milonga has too few women--we look at each other, shrug, and say, "Oh well, guess it's gonna be more of a drinking night than a dancing night," and just hit the wine and the gossip twice as hard. I just don't get this whole feeding frenzy thing, or even when there isn't a frenzy, why so many people want to dance every tanda, as though otherwise they are not getting their money's worth, or as though they have no musical preferences whatsoever and it doesn't matter what music is playing. I often wonder if these people, men or women, are the same ones who think having marathon sex sessions for four hours straight is fascinating too. Huck From larrynla at juno.com Mon Apr 14 03:50:56 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 07:50:56 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] the sexy-tango myth Message-ID: <20080414.005056.7615.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com> When Shahrukh Marchant created TANGO-L in the '90s I participated in it for several years. I just returned to it and began by scanning Lucy Lynch's archive of the last couple of years. I noticed that people are still making the silly claim that tango is the sexiest of all dances. Get real, people. Not even a strip tease is sexy. Only people are. Consider a strip tease done by someone you find unattractive or even plain repulsive. Consider your reaction if that same someone does a gancho between your legs or a leg-caress or presses their body tightly against yours, or any of the other "passionate" tango moves. Is there any act that they can do that would turn you on? In 50 years of dancing several kinds of swing, ballroom, disco, folk, and tropical dances I've found that it's the person and their attitude toward you that is sexy, not any specific dance or movement of a dance. I still remember a stately waltz that I did with a long-time lover that was as sexy as any of the tangos I've done over the nineteen years I've danced tango. It began while we were separated by a room's distance and only caught glimpses of each other at first. For most of the evening while we danced with others we slowly came nearer each other, stealing looks at the other and pretending not to notice the other's existence. The evening was almost over before we embraced and moved onto the dance floor, to circle the room at arms length, doing nothing complicated at all, but lost in each other. Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Click here for great computer networking solutions! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iighEHn9KdDgwtTmizLzv2RDOGrRpp2PkpOiLH44znzJHa7n0/ From s.augustine at ieee.org Wed Apr 16 03:41:38 2008 From: s.augustine at ieee.org (Skip Augustine) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:41:38 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080416074105.MYID15333.mta11.adelphia.net@POOZ5> Hello Tango-L- I have been a silent observer of this list for some time, preferring to "keep my mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt", but I think that now may be a good time to risk it and speak up. I am a (male) member of the San Diego tango community, and would like to add a few random observations and anecdotes to supplement what Brick wrote: 1. We do, indeed, frequently have more leaders than followers at our better milongas. I am one of those who likes to hear the music before deciding whether to dance and selecting a partner, and have sat out many a tanda of music I would love to dance to, because by the time the music started there was no one appropriate left to dance with. It is very common for a good follower to have a cluster of two or three men around her chatting her up (and thereby hoping to get a dance) the moment she gets off the dance floor. I was unaware of women feeling the need to hide, though. 2. Cabaceo generally cannot be used here. Many of the women don't know about it, and our community is rather informal and the regulars know one another well enough that I think many of the women would think themselves pretentious if they insisted on it. I do not like to be aggressive in soliciting a dance, so what I tend to do is approach close enough to get within the woman's "zone of attention"--unfortunately sometimes as little as five feet--and wait for eye contact without being too intrusive. Then a nod will usually be sufficient to convey my intentions. Unfortunately, though, it is not at all uncommon while doing this to have another leader walk right up to her (even if she is in conversation with someone), stick out his hand and say "Would you like to dance?", and the lady will accept. 3. Dancing multiple consecutive tandas with the same partner is my major pet peeve. The tango etiquette that I learned is that you invite a woman to dance, and when the tanda is over you escort her off the floor, preferably in the direction of where she is sitting, and find another partner if you want to dance the next tanda. If you want to dance with that lady again, you wait an "appropriate" amount of time, and invite her to dance again. (The exception to this rule is if you are dancing with someone with whom you have a mutual romantic attachment.) We have several leaders in our community that I unapologetically refer to as tango hogs. They dance a tanda, usually with a desirable follower, and then stay on the dance floor and engage the lady in conversation for the duration of the cortina. Then it's "Oh, more music! Would you like to dance another?" This regularly happens, and can last for anywhere from three to six tandas. 4. Some responders to this thread have suggested that the DJ is in some way responsible for this situation. I respectfully (and vehemently) disagree. The DJ's job is to play music that a majority of the people will like, and maintain the energy of the milonga through the selection of music. The DJ is not an etiquette policeman (or woman), even through indirect means, such as inclusion or omission of cortinas. I consider the DJ at many of the milongas where all this rude (imo) behavior is taking place to be the best in San Diego, and on par with DJs in Buenos Aires. Now, after all this rambling, I do have a question. My observations are those of a male leader, and are unavoidably biased by that fact. What's puzzling me is why do the women put up with this behavior? Do they like the attention, and don't find it rude, or are they too polite, or timid, to speak up if they don't like it? Or what? Now, as this is my first post to this list, I hope I won't need my Nomex skivvies, but I've got them on nonetheless. Based on my past observations, I'll probably need them. Regards, Skip A. (re-cloaking) From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Wed Apr 16 05:04:18 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:04:18 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Welcome back Larry Message-ID: <4805C112.000007.01520@OEM-COMPUTER> Welcome back Larry.......... I used to enjoy your posts. Didn't you write a series of narratives on your adventures in BsAs? They were great, especially as I hadn't been there yet and it was all a bit more mysterious. Mel. From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 16 05:39:56 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:39:56 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: <51540.1208338796@tangohk.com> Hi Skip, I think most peiople who have danced outside the milongas of BsAs will recognise the problems you're describing. The question is, why do these problems NOT occur in the milongas of BsAs and, IMHO, the answer is obvious. The codes of the milonga prevent it. The use of the cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not dancing consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. If these 3 simple codes are adopted, most of your problems will be solved. Oh, I'll add one of my own - teaching on the floor should be banned upon pain of death :-). One final point. Most of these problems are created by men. Please don't look to the ladies to solve them. Mostly it's the men who need to be educated although the ladies will need equal education on the use of the cabaceo. Keith, HK On Wed Apr 16 15:41 , "Skip Augustine" sent: I do have a question. My observations are >those of a male leader, and are unavoidably biased by that fact. What's >puzzling me is why do the women put up with this behavior? Do they like the >attention, and don't find it rude, or are they too polite, or timid, to >speak up if they don't like it? Or what? > From pkatz at trebnet.com Wed Apr 16 10:15:42 2008 From: pkatz at trebnet.com (Patricia Katz) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Men or Women Message-ID: <04b001c89fcc$5b428510$6433e863@5a5a5899596a4bc> Noticed at milongas: followers keeping certain leaders with them tanda after tanda! Many women on the sideline complain & don't know what to do about this. Paradiso,"for the love of tango" a milonga for 11 years http://torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 16 10:01:56 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:01:56 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Welcome back Larry In-Reply-To: <4805C112.000007.01520@OEM-COMPUTER> References: <4805C112.000007.01520@OEM-COMPUTER> Message-ID: <497B60D28B824A5BA68D6FCB707ECB7F@homePC> > Welcome back Larry.......... > I used to enjoy your posts. Didn't you write a series of narratives on > your > adventures in BsAs? > They were great, especially as I hadn't been there yet and it was all a > bit > more mysterious. > Mel. Oh, I still remember the "youthful light grey shirt" for going to a young people's milonga and the flawlessly executed giro con lapiz solo on the dance floor between tandas. ; ) Oh, yes, and the cigarette smoke that came into your hotel room from under your door which made you look for another place... From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 16 12:03:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <51540.1208338796@tangohk.com> Message-ID: > why do these problems NOT occur in the milongas of BsAs and, IMHO, the > answer is obvious. The codes of the milonga prevent it. This is a misunderstanding. The codes of BA milongas prevent nothing. They are simply a description of prevalent behaviour. > cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. > Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not dancing > consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. "Should be encouraged" how and by whom, exactly?? > the ladies will need equal education on the use of the cabaceo. Uh oh. Next it'll be milonga etiquette instructional placemats again... -- Chris From al at sgi.com Wed Apr 16 12:51:59 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:51:59 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48062EAF.5000506@sgi.com> Chris, UK wrote: >> why do these problems NOT occur in the milongas of BsAs and, IMHO, the >> answer is obvious. The codes of the milonga prevent it. > > This is a misunderstanding. The codes of BA milongas prevent nothing. They > are simply a description of prevalent behaviour. Precisely. The codes are a *result* of what people deem acceptable behaviour, not their source. An etiquette is *a* set of codes that allow people to know how to behave (i.e. to avoid embarassment, ambiguity and loss of face), but they can only work if everybody shares the underlying ethos and social customs. > >> cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. The problem with cabeceo is that it doesn't work unless *everyone* at a milonga uses it. Of course, you can build a group that refuses to acknowledge social rules that would be deemed normal outside of BsAs tango (i.e. followers who'll refuse a dance to someone asking for it explicitly), but that's very, very, very sectarian - and it creates yet another hurdle for newcomers and encourages clique building. Let's face it: the cabeceo simply arose as a device to prevent the leader from losing face when a follower refuses a dance. I personally don't live in BsAs and my ego isn't shot down in flames if someone simply tells me "no" (or even when she uses an excuse like "I'm too tired" or "my feet hurt"), so I don't live in a social context in which cabeceo invitations are *necessary*. I do "cabeceo" at times (certainly with followers who know me) but I'm not going to consider it dogma. > Uh oh. Next it'll be milonga etiquette instructional placemats again... Fix the problems (leaders behaving rudely and hogging good followers) and the etiquette's actual implementation becomes irrelevant; it will tend to grow naturally in a form that is matched to established local social customs. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Wed Apr 16 13:12:05 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:12:05 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> I think since I live here, and dance here, I might be a better person to respond to this, rather than someone who has just visited here. KEITH WROTE "I think most peiople who have danced outside the milongas of BsAs will recognise the problems you're describing. The question is, why do these problems NOT occur in the milongas of BsAs and, IMHO, the answer is obvious. The codes of the milonga prevent it. " CHRIS WROTE "This is a misunderstanding. The codes of BA milongas prevent nothing. They are simply a description of prevalent behaviour." My Answer: Sorry, Chris, but I do not agree. In the traditional milonga people respect the codes. We know what they are. The behavior comes from the respect of the codes. In some ways the codes are changing. They are a little bit more informal. But they are still in place. If you go to what are termed practicas or the tourist milongas, the codes may or may not exist. Believe me, we have our own issues here. I do agree with Brick, the DJ is not responsible for the etiquette of the milonga. How can they be? They are too busy dealing with the music. The behavior is set by the organizer of the milonga. Those of us here in Buenos Aires know what to expect by who the organizer is. We know the crowd it will attract. We know the music that will be played. Many organizers here will not tolerate same-sex couples on the dance floor. Some wait until the tanda is finished to tell them, others ask them to leave the dance floor. Others will permit it. Some organizers consistently announce when necessary for the women to keep their feet on the floor, others ignore it. KEITH WROTE: The use of the cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not dancing consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. MY ANSWER: I would have to agree with Brick. While I agree it is nice to have the cabaceo and the clearing of the floor and the consecutive tandas, in some communities it just is not possible. When I lived in the U.S. I always asked men to dance. I would NEVER do that here. The actual codigo for tandas also includes no more than 2 tandas with the same person. To dance a consecutive tanda and/or more than 2 tandas sends a message that you are interested in something more than tango OR that you are with your pareja (partner). If you have a small tango community of 40 people, how can any of these codigos apply? I think that as long as the codigos are respected when people come here is the important thing. The attitude of "I am just a dumb tourist, what do I know" is not an acceptable excuse. KEITH WROTE: If these 3 simple codes are adopted, most of your problems will be solved. Oh, I'll add one of my own - teaching on the floor should be banned upon pain of death :-) . MY ANSWER: The we will have other problems. There are always problems. But trying to have a pleasant evening, and remembering that tango is a social dance not an Olympic competition would be a good start. As for teaching on the dance floor....it should be banned. It never happens to me. Every once in awhile someone who does not know me, and really is not a very good dancer will make "suggestions" so that I can dance like an Argentine. My standard answer is "Perhaps you would prefer to dance with someone else." That seems to shut them right down...along with "I can't find your lead..." KEITH WROTE: One final point. Most of these problems are created by men. Please don't look to the ladies to solve them. Mostly it's the men who need to be educated although the ladies will need equal education on the use of the cabaceo. MY ANSWER: (I seem to be the male advocate these days) Not all these problems are caused by men. Lots are caused by women too. When I lived in California I remembered women running onto the dance floor to ask my partner to dance BEFORE the tanda had ended. I remember women circling the floor like vultures over the men and not letting them go when the tanda ended. I remember women with their arms folded and glaring at a man while he danced with someone else. Women can be just as competitive as men and just as rude. (We are equal, remember?) Again, I defer to the organizer to set the tone and example. From al at sgi.com Wed Apr 16 13:36:51 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:36:51 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> References: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <48063933.8020404@sgi.com> Deby Novitz wrote: > The behavior comes from the respect of the codes. > No, it doesn't. The codes come from a common understanding of what behaviour is acceptable, and the actors *choose* to abide by them - i.e. the behaviour comes from a free will decision to abide by the codes, or from a fear to be judged negatively by peers if you don't follow the codes. The codes themselves are powerless (as the actors aren't programmed automatons, but people with free will). Social pressure does have power, and *that* is the forcing factor. Try to transplant the codes into another social setting (with less social pressure to be courteous, codes or not) and they'll fail miserably. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 14:10:36 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <791444.12384.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Deby Novitz wrote: > I think since I live here, and dance here, I might > be a better person to > respond to this, rather than someone who has just > visited here. > > You could also check out the first two posts at: http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ Where you will find at least one milonga organizer who is trying to enforce the codes. If he doesn't. the local patrons will go elsewhere. Remember, too, that in BsAs, there are choices every afternoon and night of the week - at least 15 different milongas happening around the city. Nancy Six more days to Mecca. <> de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Crrtango at aol.com Wed Apr 16 14:44:40 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:44:40 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? Message-ID: Alexis wrote, Deby Novitz wrote: >?? The behavior comes from the respect of the codes. > <<<>> This seems like a semantical and intellectual argument that you are parsing for the sake of having your say because it doesn't really discredit what she is saying. The milongueros do respect these codes. Do you have an issue with the word "respect"? ...and just curious, have you ever been to Buenos Aires? Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From Crrtango at aol.com Wed Apr 16 15:03:26 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:03:26 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Media lunas (edible) at 5:00 AM Message-ID: Greetings, Just got back from Buenos Aires and still going through withdrawal. Just a few observations because of length restrictions on the list. Some milongas are experiencing a change in the type of dancers that frequent them, meaning the ratio of tourists to locals, and by consequence the style of dancing. Nowadays you can find younger crowds and more "adventurous" dancing like the nuevo style or you can search out the traditional ones. Some milonguero friends of mine there told me they no longer go to certain places because of the tourists so if you want to be with the locals, you have to do a little research. Confiteria Ideal is full of tourists for example...not that one shouldn't visit this venerable institution. But as Deby pointed out on the list, the crowd often depends on the organizer. That is something to consider when you go so you can feel comfortable where you go. One of the pleasures of the milongas for me is the dressing up. It is common to see men in suits and women in nice dresses at Sin Rumbo, Salon Canning, especially at Sunderland on Sat. night. Not all of the locals dress up of course, nor do they all dance well and follow the etiquette, but they tend to be exceptions. I took some classes with El Chino Perico (Ricardo Ponce) there. It was a high point of my trip as he was gracious enough to also spend most of the evening at my table at Sunderland. He has danced many years and is considered one of the greatest milongueros. If you are interested in seriously refining and polishing your dancing (meaning not just learning more steps) he is someone I would recommend. He will be teaching in France next month so he will not be back until late May. He is usually at Sunderland on Sat night. Most mornings we ended up at a confiteria for media lunas (croissants) before heading back to the apt to sleep. Sometimes if you are lucky you will get them fresh from the oven...the icing on the cake of a great night of dancing. I found tango books, old tango magazines, CDs...if anyone would like more information I would be happy to send it off list. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From al at sgi.com Wed Apr 16 15:06:26 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:06:26 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48064E32.70704@sgi.com> Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > This seems like a semantical and intellectual argument that you are parsing > for the sake of having your say No - for the sake of making sure that everybody understands. She is claiming 1. the codes force behaviour while also claiming (correctly) 2. they don't work everywhere. The codes are obviously valid in BsAs, as in Rome, you should do as the Romans an no one is disputing that. Not *everyone* seems to understand the second point, though, which was why I tried to clarify. The codes do not force behaviour outside of the narrow context in which they live. > because it doesn't really discredit what she is > saying. Quite. We're in violent agreement on most things. > The milongueros do respect these codes. In BsAs they do, and I wouldn't dream to want to change the codes over there, especially not as they're working (most of the time). On the other hand, in other countries, different codes to achieve the same aims (i.e. courtesy and a lack of unnecessary social friction) might be better. In this country, there is absolutely *zero* peer pressure for people to behave according to the original BsAs codes (cabeceos aren't understood and more forcible ways to invite followers pre-empt the cabeceo, when there are cortinas some people will continue to dance "tango" to cling to a follower they want to hog for a long time, etc. etc.). So we need other ones, as brainwashing people into simili-portenos doesn't seem to work wonders. And I don't lament that fact; I just resign myself to the fact that we aren't portenos and that the social context is different, instead of trying to pretend it isn't and that anyone can (or even should) single-handledly Argentinise everyone around. The better codes stick close to local social customs, the more chance there is for general acceptance, as few people will conform to codes that appear very alien to them. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From tony at oakebooks.com Wed Apr 16 15:43:27 2008 From: tony at oakebooks.com (Tony) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:43:27 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> References: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <480656DF.7040002@oakebooks.com> The phrase "Tango Hog" was used recently - someone who keeps a partner on the dance floor for tanda after tanda. I saw something like this happen once, let's say "Guy #1" is dancing with an attractive girl for song after song, and Guy 2 wants a dance, gets impatient and goes up to the pair on the dance floor, between songs, and says something. Next thing I see the two guys arguing in the kitchen about right etiquette. I'm guessing there was nothing happening between guy #1 and the girl. Even so, I don't think another dancer is really in a position to say anything without looking a bit desperate. And surely if the girl was unhappy she would have left the dance floor. I can see that a DJ being outside of a situation like this has the chance to say something to encourage changing partners (couples excepted of course), without directing attention at any pair in particular, or whatever codes a community decides on. Tony -- www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php Martial Arts : Health : Dance From antonst at alidas.com.au Wed Apr 16 15:54:22 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 05:54:22 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Cortinas or not? In-Reply-To: <425A62E070C44D5CB42CA3039CAFF90F@stanco.local> Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF52C@stancosbs1.stanco.local> "Actually, I believe the root cause is a DJ who plays music which people don't want to dance to. The cortina has nothing to do with that." Unlike most blokes in my Tango community, I prefer to only dance about three tandas at a Milonga. I prefer to wait for music which penetrates to my heart. Often, by the time I hear the beginning of the tanda, I have missed my opportunity to seek a dance with the partner I would prefer. So I can't agree with Jake's view (above) on the subject. Music can affect each person differently. Those leaders that practically dance every tanda, don't seem to be affected by the music at all. They just want to dance. That's not the way I see Tango. By dispensing with the cortina, I fear many leaders would not return their partners to their table at the conclusion of a tanda. Maybe DJs could announce the composition of the following tanda. Or post the tandas they are going to play on a whiteboard or something. I realise that would be abhorrent to DJs who believe they need the flexibility to change on the fly. I also put my hand up for the cabeceo, but can't see it working effectively, unless our communities align themselves more closely to all the tango customs of BA. Anton From arborlaw at comcast.net Wed Apr 16 16:07:24 2008 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:07:24 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <480656DF.7040002@oakebooks.com> References: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> <480656DF.7040002@oakebooks.com> Message-ID: <48065C7C.7040409@comcast.net> If a man who dances repeat tandas with the same woman is a "tango hog," is the follow who dances repeat tandas while there are surplus follows who are not dancing (indeed, many have not danced a single tanda all night) also a "tango hog"? When I brought this topic up about having a hard time getting even a single tanda when there are surplus follows (particularly because women are discouraged from asking), -- the observations were: A. You obviously are not good enough. If you were a good enough dancer you would be asked even though there are many extra women. B. Be more physically attractive. C. Learn to lead (in your case, surplus men, it would be "learn to follow"...and don't forget to make eye contact with those leaders out there, so they will invite you to dance). D. Pick up and move yourself to another city. So, overstocked-tanguero-dudes, that's my advice. Tony wrote: > The phrase "Tango Hog" was used recently - someone who keeps a partner > on the dance floor for tanda after tanda. > > I saw something like this happen once, let's say "Guy #1" is dancing > with an attractive girl for song after song, and Guy 2 wants a dance, > gets impatient and goes up to the pair on the dance floor, between > songs, and says something. Next thing I see the two guys arguing in the > kitchen about right etiquette. > > I'm guessing there was nothing happening between guy #1 and the girl. > Even so, I don't think another dancer is really in a position to say > anything without looking a bit desperate. And surely if the girl was > unhappy she would have left the dance floor. I can see that a DJ being > outside of a situation like this has the chance to say something to > encourage changing partners (couples excepted of course), without > directing attention at any pair in particular, or whatever codes a > community decides on. > > Tony > > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.biz From al at sgi.com Wed Apr 16 16:37:11 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:37:11 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <48065C7C.7040409@comcast.net> References: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> <480656DF.7040002@oakebooks.com> <48065C7C.7040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48066377.3050801@sgi.com> Carol Shepherd wrote: > If a man who dances repeat tandas with the same woman is a "tango hog," > is the follow who dances repeat tandas while there are surplus follows > who are not dancing (indeed, many have not danced a single tanda all > night) also a "tango hog"? > When she dances six tandas with the same leader just because he's good and she doesn't want to be invited by lesser gods? Sure. When she dances one or two tandas wih a leader but is then invited back onto the floor all the time? No. Hogging doesn't have much to do with the amount of time on the dance floor, but with lack of rotation - i.e. not giving others a chance to dance with your current dance partner. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From antonst at alidas.com.au Wed Apr 16 17:19:57 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:19:57 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF52D@stancosbs1.stanco.local> "you don't choose a partner during the cortina...the cortina gives you time to leave the floor, sit down, re-adjust and look around to see who you might want to make contact with for the next tanda." Yes all of 20 or 30 seconds. In BA it works fine because everyone (customarily) uses the cabeceo. The woman can avoid the gaze of suitors and wait for whom she prefers. Elsewhere, guys can leave their partner at the end of a tanda and march straight over to the next partner THEY choose. Makes it very difficult in our polite culture for them to refuse, even for a rest. For that, they have to leave the room. Anton From antonst at alidas.com.au Wed Apr 16 17:31:54 2008 From: antonst at alidas.com.au (Anton Stanley) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:31:54 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF52E@stancosbs1.stanco.local> I shouldn't describe your first post as fantastic Skip, just because I agree with all you wrote. What the hell! Fantastic post Skip! Hope we don't have to wait too long for more of your observations and insights. Probably a little more condensed though. Anton From tony at oakebooks.com Wed Apr 16 17:39:52 2008 From: tony at oakebooks.com (Tony) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:39:52 +0100 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <48065C7C.7040409@comcast.net> References: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> <480656DF.7040002@oakebooks.com> <48065C7C.7040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48067228.8090702@oakebooks.com> Carol Shepherd wrote: > If a man who dances repeat tandas with the same woman is a "tango hog," > is the follow who dances repeat tandas while there are surplus follows > who are not dancing (indeed, many have not danced a single tanda all > night) also a "tango hog"? > Hey, I didn't coin the phrase! :-) Actually, I think it's a bit harsh, but since the term's been used and we know what it refers to... although there has to be a better way to put it. > When I brought this topic up about having a hard time getting even a > single tanda when there are surplus follows (particularly because women > are discouraged from asking), -- the observations were: > > > A. You obviously are not good enough. If you were a good enough dancer > you would be asked even though there are many extra women. ... > I don't reckon this is the case, at least not always. At the last milonga I attended, half way through, I sat with a friend who was upset, and tearful. When she spilt the beans, it was basically that she wasn't being asked for dances by anyone she didn't know, and this had been her experience at other places. We had a long chat about signals, etiquette, what's going on in male dancers' minds when they're looking for someone to dance with (I have a bit of an advantage on that topic), then we danced for a bit. When I caught up with her at the end of the night she was beaming. She sent out the right signal and was getting asked for dances. Cheers Tony -- www.oakebooks.com/ezines/index.php Martial Arts : Health : Dance From s.augustine at ieee.org Wed Apr 16 18:44:23 2008 From: s.augustine at ieee.org (Skip Augustine) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF52E@stancosbs1.stanco.local> Message-ID: <20080416224421.DHSP11947.mta16.adelphia.net@POOZ5> Anton wrote: I shouldn't describe your first post as fantastic Skip, just because I agree with all you wrote. What the hell! Fantastic post Skip! Hope we don't have to wait too long for more of your observations and insights. Probably a little more condensed though. Anton- Thank you for the compliment! I will post when I feel I have something contributory and intelligent to say, which, for good or for bad, is not very often. Sorry about being verbose, but I am very careful to write in a way that minimizes the possibility of being misunderstood. I think that the terse one-liners are often misinterpreted and frequently lead to much of the animosity we see on the list. Regards, Skip From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 19:12:28 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] tango music Message-ID: <770261.85909.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is there an e-mail list with the focus on tango music? Thank you. =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== From martin at waxman.net Wed Apr 16 19:37:18 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:37:18 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] tango music In-Reply-To: <770261.85909.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <770261.85909.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416193613.014a0100@waxman.net> At 07:12 PM 4/16/2008, Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: >Is there an e-mail list with the focus on tango music? Thank you. Yes, the Tango DJ list. Are you a milonga DJ? Marty From spatz at tangoDC.com Wed Apr 16 19:51:18 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:51:18 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not (reply to Skip's 1st) In-Reply-To: <20080416074105.MYID15333.mta11.adelphia.net@POOZ5> References: <20080416074105.MYID15333.mta11.adelphia.net@POOZ5> Message-ID: <480690F6.6060001@tangoDC.com> Skip, Skip Augustine wrote: > I [...] have sat out many a tanda of music I would love to dance to, because by the time the music started there was no one appropriate left to dance with. Have you considered dancing with someone "inappropriate"? I think this manner of picking (or trying to pick) the right partner AND the right music is a little silly sometimes... especially since it's the DJ who picks the music /for/ the dancers. Still, I think a good DJ doesn't disappoint, in the event that you get a partner first (and relax your expectations a little). More on this below. > it is not at all uncommon while doing this [trying to secure a partner] to have another leader walk right up to her (even if she is in conversation with someone), stick out his hand and say "Would you like to dance?", and the lady will accept. > Sounds like the lady is a bit short on manners too, if she abruptly drops her conversation to accept so abrupt an invitation. Have you anyone exemplary of /good/ conduct in SD? > We have several leaders in our community that I unapologetically refer to as tango hogs. They dance a tanda, usually with a desirable follower, and then stay on the dance floor and engage the lady in conversation for the duration of the cortina. Then it's "Oh, more music! Would you like to dance another?" People do this in DC too-- I'm often one of them. Typically we've already decided to dance more, however, so it doesn't matter what the music is. If we really don't like the music when tanda #2 starts, we simply leave the floor, and perhaps find other partners (or each other, if there are no others) if the next song is to our liking. Sometimes though, people "book" tandas ahead of time-- like, say, a milonga tanda. Partner XYZ says "Sorry, Jake, I told PQR I'd dance the next milonga set with him." I don't do this, but I don't mind it at all. I think it's kinda cool, in a way. If the DJ is sticking to a predictable cycle-- TTVTTM, for example-- it's very easy to manage. > This regularly happens, and can last for anywhere from three to six tandas. > Three to six tandas with one partner, however, is downright absurd. > 4. Some responders to this thread have suggested that the DJ is in some way responsible for this situation. I respectfully (and vehemently) disagree. > I don't, and I'm a DJ. The DJ's tanda selections are-- to a large degree-- responsible for the ronda. (Many DJs accept this as a commonplace, even if most dancers aren't aware of it.) Likewise, the DJ's cortina selections influence the dancers' behavior between tandas. (I've watched DJs wreck an entire tanda by using a bad cortina to introduce it. I've seen a few "break the spell" in a very ugly way, by crashing a good tanda into a bad cortina.) Whether or not people are picking partners during cortinas, I think the cortina should prep the dancers for what's coming next, in some way. For instance, if I'm following a melodious tango set with some light milongas, the cortina will most likely be on the peppy side. Were the tandas in the reverse order, I would most likely choose something else as a cortina to create an effective transition for the dancers. I'm not saying most dancers notice this consciously. I think most dancers react to it though, because I sit there and watch them. So if you get a partner during a cortina, and then the tanda begins and it's not what you were expecting at all-- if you find it jarringly counter to your desires, that is-- then I'd say you have a DJ problem. Or else that you're being way too picky when it comes to music. Have you ever considered chatting up the DJ, to find out what's next? Maybe that's the answer for your situation. > The DJ's job is to play music that a majority of the people will like, and maintain the energy of the milonga through the selection of music. Precisely: and the cortinas are a subtle part of how that ride gets created. Further, the cortina can heavily influence how much you like the next tanda-- which is my point above, in a nutshell. > The DJ is not an etiquette policeman (or woman), even through indirect means, such as inclusion or omission of cortinas. If I were a DJ in your community, and I saw the behavior you describe, I would do all I could to improve the situation. Probably I would start by using 45- or 60-second cortinas instead of something shorter. Or I'd "frame" the cortinas in more silence, to break up the tandas even further. > What's puzzling me is why do the women put up with this behavior? Do they like the attention, and don't find it rude, or are they too polite, or timid, to speak up if they don't like it? Or what? > I've asked a few women about this in the past, and I've always gotten the same response. When a guy is hogging them, they don't know what to do. They just act polite, and stay with him out of fear of being impolite. Such are the responses I've gotten anyway. I'm glad not all women are that self-effacing. Jake From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 16 21:14:24 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Modern dance incorporates a few tango moves Message-ID: <263658.16748.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's nice to see modern dance incorporate a few tango poses. They sure have come a long ways since ballet slippers..at least now, it's modern shoes and some more contemporary movements. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zBmnShASA&feature=related --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 16 21:49:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Why doesn't this happen in BA? In-Reply-To: <48063365.6030708@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: > In the traditional milonga people respect the codes. Those who respect the codes respect the codes. Those who don't don't. > Some organizers consistently announce when necessary for the women to > keep their feet on the floor, others ignore it. Well, quite - some respect the codes, some don't. > The actual codigo for tandas also includes no more than 2 tandas with > the same person. To dance a consecutive tanda and/or more than 2 > tandas sends a message that you are interested in something more Again, some respect the codes, some don't - especially when necessary to send an important message! -- Chris From MACFroggy at aol.com Wed Apr 16 22:04:31 2008 From: MACFroggy at aol.com (MACFroggy@aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:04:31 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the popular DNI school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango": http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From tempehuck at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 22:22:10 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:22:10 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > > Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the popular DNI > school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango": > > http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. Fantastic! Bravo, Mr. Clarke. Huck From tangotangotango at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 22:34:48 2008 From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:34:48 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fb1555a0804161934n7f897a64p85a52ffd0c483b51@mail.gmail.com> If only the founders of DNI would have the courtesy to wear cargo pants. (Or any pants, for that matter) http://www.marytango.com.ar/index_ingl.html Neil From eyegee at twcny.rr.com Wed Apr 16 23:53:41 2008 From: eyegee at twcny.rr.com (Ira Goldstein) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:53:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <9fb1555a0804161934n7f897a64p85a52ffd0c483b51@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fb1555a0804161934n7f897a64p85a52ffd0c483b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was at Practica X one night when Dana Frigoli & Pablo Villarazza (the founders of DNI) and Pablo Inza and Mariela Sametband danced improvisationally to music selected by the crowd after a tandem seminar. Milena Plebs showed up to watch them perform and was enthusiastically appreciative. It's interesting to consider that, in contrast to other people's scornful denigration... I've never attended a class at DNI, and that evening at Practica X is my only experience of Dana & Pablo. To me it seems that they clearly offered much to deepen the tango of dancers no matter what their personal style of social dancing might be--and their improvisational performance was exquisitely musical, creative, displayed much dynamic range and graceful technical facility, intimately connected, evocative and inspiring. --Ira Ithaca, NY At 7:22 PM -0700 4/16/08, Huck Kennedy wrote: > As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants >reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when >finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. >Fantastic! > > Bravo, Mr. Clarke. At 11:34 PM -0300 4/16/08, Tango Tango wrote: >If only the founders of DNI would have the courtesy to wear cargo pants. (Or >any pants, for that matter) > >http://www.marytango.com.ar/index_ingl.html > >Neil From s.augustine at ieee.org Thu Apr 17 00:44:23 2008 From: s.augustine at ieee.org (Skip Augustine) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080417044548.FNIE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@POOZ5> MACFroggy wrote: >Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the popular DNI school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango": Well, oddly enough, another topic has come up that I feel qualified to comment on, but this is much more controversial: I am going to defend DNI and nuevo tango...sort of. First DNI. Over the course of my last two trips to Buenos Aires, I have probably taken 30 private lessons and practices at DNI. I have studied with all the female teachers including Dana Frigoli, and also one of the men. I found the instruction to generally be exceptional. But here's the catch: I didn't study nuevo. I am a, for the most part, a close embrace, salon-style dancer, and what I studied was basic salon stuff: walking, ochos, turns, etc., all in close embrace. What Mr. Clarke didn't see was that the DNI staff is also very accomplished at teaching more traditional tango styles. All you have to do is ask. I have also danced at milonga with Dana Frigoli. I danced in my standard close embrace salon style. It was exquisite--one of the most memorable tandas I have ever danced. It was a true conversation, subtly nuanced give and take, suggestion and response in both directions. What we live for. So please don't tell me she can't dance. Now the downside. I will probably not be going back. Why? They have grown so fast that they have lost the personal touch that sold me on the place two years ago. It is much more difficult to schedule lessons there now. I encountered no-notice cancellations and other scheduling gaffes. Also, you may notice that I only talked about private classes. I took a couple of group classes there and, while not as extreme as Mr. Clarke's, my opinion is generally the same. The principal problem is that the classes are far too crowded. They spill out into the lobby area and it is very difficult to get any personal attention from the teachers. Well, I was also going to talk about nuevo, but this has gotten too long. I'll save that for another time. Regards, Skip A. P.S. Ira, I just saw your post as I was writing this. I respect your opinions and I'm glad we agree. From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 17 00:46:38 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:46:38 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Modern dance incorporates a few tango moves Message-ID: <50038.1208407598@tangohk.com> Mario, I think you've got this backwards. I believe these are supposed to be Tango dancers so it's not modern dance incorporating a few Tango poses, it's actually Tango incorporating a lot of modern dance moves. The question is, when does it stop being one and become the other. On that I have no comment. However, if Tango dancers are going to incorporate a lot of Latin dance figures, then they should really take lessons in Latin dance technique. The underarm turns in this video look a lot like really bad Rumba or, even worse, really bad Salsa. IMHO, Chicho should stick to Tango as he's no Latin dancer. Fortunately, in this video, he's saved by his parner, Juana. Just my opinion. Keth, HK On Thu Apr 17 9:14 , Mario sent: >It's nice to see modern dance incorporate a few tango poses. > They sure have come a long ways since ballet slippers..at least now, > it's modern shoes and some more contemporary movements. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=z5zBmnShASA&feature=related > From esjune at hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 01:18:37 2008 From: esjune at hotmail.com (june es) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:18:37 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: I agree with Skip's posting about the soundness of DNI technique. I regard myself as a tango dancer who enjoys both close and open embrace. I also took private lessons and practiced with their teachers. What they teach applies across close and open embrace. DNI also offers a total package - I took a program that, apart from tango, included a yoga session and a massage. To my delight, I found my body liberated from the kinks that had previously impeded my dancing. I became more aware of my breathing and how it helped me with where I was sending my energy in the dance. On my return home, I found to my surprise that I could apply what I had learnt to another dance-form and I moved with all-round greater ease as a result. For me, the DNI training affected me from head to toe. I also found that the rapid expansion of student numbers at the DNI studio has placed strains on group-class space and time pressure on the hard-working staff. However, Dana and Mariela remained as charmingly attentive as ever. I am speaking from my DNI experiences of 2006 and 2007. I am looking forward to renewing my training with Pablo and Dana at the Berlin Tango Festival this May. _________________________________________________________________ Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30290&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Search_OCT07&_m=EXT From nina at earthnet.net Thu Apr 17 01:35:14 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:35:14 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080416232923.01b62d70@earthnet.net> Great article. Thank you, Huck. I think that it is OK that they dance that way. For now. If they are under 30, they probably do not have the inner resources to appreciate the finer things of tango that the author refers to. Some of it may be even scary for them. But if you give them 10 years or so, they might change. By that time, all of the current traditionalists of whatever age might be dead, and so these people will be the future dancers. And they will not dance as they do now. This stuff is deeply unsatifying after one achieves a level of maturity that commands self-respect. So tango nuevo is a great trick meant to suck in the young and innocent, and keep them there until they become smart enough and mature enough to be trusted with the real thing. Nina At 08:22 PM 4/16/2008, Huck Kennedy wrote: >On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > > > > Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the > popular DNI > > school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango": > > > > http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php > > As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants >reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when >finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. >Fantastic! > > Bravo, Mr. Clarke. > >Huck >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 17 01:38:02 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 01:38:02 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] New 'nuevo tango' Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: <50513.1208410682@tangohk.com> Pablo Inza was my very first dance teacher when he and Gladys Fernandez visted Hong Kong a number of times in 1995 and 1996. This was in Pablo's pre-Nuevo days when he was a very traditional and conservative Tango dancer and teacher. All the time was spent on basic technique with no hint of any fancy figures. I also know Pablo Vilarazza and Dana Frigoli and have attended their classes in Hong Kong and at DNI in Buenos Aires. Pablo and Dana are great dancers who are also well schooled in the more traditional Tango of the milongas. The point I'm trying to make is that all the top Nuevo dancers in BsAs are equally comfortable in other styles of Tango, including the close embrace of the milongas. IMHO, people should first learn more traditional Tango and then, if they have the necessary dance ability, they can go on to try some Nuevo. Unfortunately, Nuevo isn't going to go away, but if the dancers have already grasped the basic techiques of traditional Tango, hopefully, their Nuevo won't look too bad :-). Keith, HK On Thu Apr 17 11:53 , Ira Goldstein sent: > I was at Practica X one night when Dana Frigoli & Pablo Villarazza >(the founders of DNI) and Pablo Inza and Mariela Sametband danced >improvisationally to music selected by the crowd after a tandem >seminar. From patangos at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 09:17:38 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not (reply to Skip's 1st) In-Reply-To: <480690F6.6060001@tangoDC.com> Message-ID: <981860.54929.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Jake Spatz wrote: . > > What's puzzling me is why do the women put up with this > behavior? Do they like the attention, and don't find it > rude, or are they too polite, or timid, to speak up if > they don't like it? Or what? > > > I've asked a few women about this in the past, and I've > always gotten the same response. When a guy is hogging them, they don't know what to do. They just act polite, and stay with him out of fear of being impolite. She is trying to be polite so she doesn't refuse tanda request #3? That's absurd. These women are either not telling you the truth or must say yes to every guy who asks her for sex. Skip: It takes two to agree to a dance. So I interpret these 3+ tandas as being that these people really like dancing together. If I dance 3 or 4 tandas with a man at one time, it's because I find him to be very musical and I'm interested in how he interprets different musical styles (a very nice thing about the tanda system is its predictability). If during two tandas his dance is the same, then, he's pretty much played all of his cards and the game is over. For these long sets, I try to save those tandas for later in the evening so that I can end my night on a high note. So, you might want to look into Carol's advice or come earlier to the milonga. The other thing you can try is greeting the woman hello and telling her that you hope to get a dance with her later in the evening. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 09:43:11 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "nuevo tango" -- Basic economics and exoticism Message-ID: <983741.85561.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I enjoyed reading the different positions offered in regards to tango styles. One missing point in this discussion is simple economics. = Tango Nuevo proliferates because there is a demand for it!! =20 >From the student perspective learning Nuevo Tango is a matter of = individual esthetic and personal connection with the dance and music. I would find = it difficult to express my feelings in Nuevo style while listening to the = words of "El Choclo". -- "Vieja milonga que en mi horas de tristeza, traes a = mi mente tu recuerdo cari=F1oso". =20 But as I said before that is a personal choice. Students are free to = choose what they want to look like on the dance floor as they listen to words = and musical notes. Perhaps the traditional AT form and expression feels oppressive and too conforming... too square. So let's look different = and cool... yeah !! The second issue addresses instructors. Here economics plays a larger = role. We all know that competition in a free market economy only allows the = best to prevail. If you cannot succeed as a top professional in a given area = you then need to change strategies. Product differentiation is an old = trick to bring the worse in one area to the top on another. So NUEVO TANGO emerges... A new space where one can claim to have mastered certain movements and thus command $$$ for services rendered.=20 In a rare moment :-) I agree with Nina's posting. It is a matter of maturity and experience (or perhaps not). One thing is certain... as = long as people are willing to pay for Nuevo Tango classes you will find = someone teaching it. The creation and marketing of Nuevo Tango is a great strategy to create = a niche on the market where one can exploit and earn a decent living. = Lets market, and sell... and does sexy sell?? Sure it does. Package some of that "sexiness" with pictures of exotic places and birds and voila!!! = You have created the perfect vacation package for those seeking the thrill = of an exotic and sensual experience. Such experience promises to move the = novice tango dancer away from the drudgery of their daily life and work. = Perhaps a few days in an exotic place away from bills, children, church, neighbors = and the white picket fence with 2 cars garage will re-energize my life. =20 Nuevo Tango is giving a voice for those dancers that find it difficult = to connect with the culture, feelings and emotions associated with the more traditional form of AT. Amaury -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf = Of Nina Pesochinsky Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:35 AM To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Great article. Thank you, Huck. I think that it is OK that they dance that way. For now. If they=20 are under 30, they probably do not have the inner resources to=20 appreciate the finer things of tango that the author refers=20 to. Some of it may be even scary for them. But if you give them 10 years or so, they might change. By that=20 time, all of the current traditionalists of whatever age might be=20 dead, and so these people will be the future dancers. And they will=20 not dance as they do now. This stuff is deeply unsatifying after one=20 achieves a level of maturity that commands self-respect. So tango nuevo is a great trick meant to suck in the young and=20 innocent, and keep them there until they become smart enough and=20 mature enough to be trusted with the real thing. Nina At 08:22 PM 4/16/2008, Huck Kennedy wrote: >On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > > > > Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the=20 > popular DNI > > school in BsAs as an example of what he terms "Playground Tango": > > > > http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php > > As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants >reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when >finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. >Fantastic! > > Bravo, Mr. Clarke. > >Huck >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From arborlaw at comcast.net Thu Apr 17 10:21:24 2008 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:21:24 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not (reply to Skip's 1st) In-Reply-To: <981860.54929.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <981860.54929.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48075CE4.90907@comcast.net> Trini, I disagree. I think the multiple-tanda woman is motivated by not wanting to mess with a good thing. She looks around and sees surplus women standing around not dancing every time she goes out, and she thinks "that could be me if I'm not careful, he wants to dance a lot with me, I like dancing with him, and maybe he would move on to another partner who is willing to dance multiple dances." A lot of men are not looking for novelty and the challenge of figuring out different follows. They are simply going to stick with a partner all night if there is no pressure to do otherwise. It makes them feel more competent with the responsibility of leading, they relax more because they know what is going to happen, and of course...everyone enjoys dancing more with someone they enjoy dancing with. These guys are in every type of social dance, not just tango. (A lot of people on this list are extremely high level and very motivated and might like the novelty of different partners. They forget that the average dancer who is not so committed, doesn't necessarily enjoy the challenge of figuring out multiple partners.) Long cortinas are absolutely necessary to encourage people to switch. I would recommend a cortina of 2 minutes or more, ie, a whole non-tango song. With a short cortina it's very easy to remain standing in the middle of the floor with the same partner--sometimes they even keep their arms together! If the cortina is longer, standing in the middle of the floor with people staring at you starts to feel uncomfortable, and people are more likely to leave the floor and get a drink or socialize. The power struggles and effects on social behavior caused by a surplus of leads or follows are underrated. Community organizers should be thoughtful about this. Plus my other comments on the way this problem is exacerbated by long tandas, and not having available non-tanda dancing at practicas in communities where partners are more willing to try out new partners, etc etc. Regards, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > > She is trying to be polite so she doesn't refuse tanda > request #3? That's absurd. These women are either not > telling you the truth or must say yes to every guy who asks > her for sex. ... > > Skip: > It takes two to agree to a dance. So I interpret these 3+ > tandas as being that these people really like dancing > together. If I dance 3 or 4 tandas with a man at one time, > it's because I find him to be very musical and I'm > interested in how he interprets different musical styles (a > very nice thing about the tanda system is its > predictability). If during two tandas his dance is the > same, then, he's pretty much played all of his cards and > the game is over. For these long sets, I try to save those > tandas for later in the evening so that I can end my night > on a high note. > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.biz From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Apr 17 12:30:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] "nuevo tango" -- Basic economics and exoticism In-Reply-To: <983741.85561.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Nuevo Tango is giving a voice for those dancers that > find it difficult to connect with the culture, feelings > and emotions associated with the more traditional form of AT. How about: Nuevo Tango is giving a voice for those dancers that find it difficult to connect with culture, feelings and emotions. This lack of foundation is the nearest thing nuevo has to a foundation. "Nuevo" is simply anything that doesn't last long enough to become viejo. -- Chris From joe.grohens at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 14:50:09 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:50:09 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> "tango is a sensuous undertaking of direct erotic power and great feeling. Dressing well for it gives it even more of this power because the elegance of the dress enhances the fires rising from the soul and the heart. The fires, as it were, hide themselves within the clothing. They smolder there. They're fanned by suggestion and nuance. They begin to appear as the result of the erotic give-and-take between two very involved dancers, and when the flames finally break out, they are truly incendiary." Terrence forgot to mention that "tango was born in the brothels". Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. From hross at MIT.EDU Thu Apr 17 14:55:06 2008 From: hross at MIT.EDU (Hillary Ross) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:55:06 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] problems posting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005201c8a0bc$8e87a810$ab96f830$@edu> Hi - anyone else on the list having trouble with their postings not showing up? I tried 2x after Atlanta Festival, and then emailed to tango-l-owner at mit.edu but still nothing, and no response. Thanks. From martin at waxman.net Thu Apr 17 15:01:36 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:01:36 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> References: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417145758.01f32ef0@waxman.net> At 02:50 PM 4/17/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: >Terrence forgot to mention that "tango was born in the brothels". >Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. Popular and perpetuated legend. No historic proof. And, if it was, who cares? Marty From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 15:15:25 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] once again In-Reply-To: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> Message-ID: <238714.97539.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Joe, I am not quite sure about your statement. Would you mind qualify a little better what you meant in your statement: "tango was born in the brothels". >From the little I know (and is literaly quite little)the construct of tango's singularity (born in a single place from a single group and a single economic status)is as embarrassing as associating bananas with South America. Unknowingly, your associations (tango-brothel)is a variation of the same cultural diconnect represented in some variations of Nuevo Tango. Cheers, Amaury --- Joe Grohens wrote: > > "tango is a sensuous undertaking of direct erotic > power and great > feeling. Dressing well for it gives it even more of > this power because > the elegance of the dress enhances the fires rising > from the soul and > the heart. > The fires, as it were, hide themselves within the > clothing. They > smolder there. They're fanned by suggestion and > nuance. They begin to > appear as the result of the erotic give-and-take > between two very > involved dancers, and when the flames finally break > out, they are > truly incendiary." > > > > Terrence forgot to mention that "tango was born in > the brothels". > > Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From jjg at jqhome.net Thu Apr 17 15:24:02 2008 From: jjg at jqhome.net (Jeff Gaynor) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:02 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> References: <8A9CEB37-0561-4B91-862B-EFE1B73C9040@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4807A3D2.9050806@jqhome.net> Joe Grohens wrote: > "tango is a sensuous undertaking of direct erotic power and great > feeling. Dressing well for it gives it even more of this power because > the elegance of the dress enhances the fires rising from the soul and > the heart. > The fires, as it were, hide themselves within the clothing. They > smolder there. They're fanned by suggestion and nuance. They begin to > appear as the result of the erotic give-and-take between two very > involved dancers, and when the flames finally break out, they are > truly incendiary." > > > > Terrence forgot to mention that "tango was born in the brothels". > > Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. > Sure it is... *in context* Meaning that tango -- as with all partner dance -- is an interaction. It therefore has a good deal more to it than just what he alludes to. Correct me if I am wrong, but in Argentina it was, until recently, seen as an old folks dance, right? Something you (*groan*) are put upon to do at a wedding with your slightly dotty Aunt Maria. Interactions have rules for dealing with people we like, don't like, strangers, friends and such. You wouldn't want to get a huge smooch from some stranger every time you met him or her, would you? Why would you want that in your dance? Oh sure you can get all hot and horny if that's where you relationship is at (don't need tango for that, BTW, maybe just get a room?), I guess. Just don't get in my and Aunt Maria's way please. We call that etiquette. It's gotten to be good fun to transgress boundaries, but that usually supposes that everyone will be scandalized in a good natured way by it, or so it is dearly hoped. Sorry, but I've seen a lot of discussions on these sorts of articles and it impresses me that tango is varied enough that you can dance it with someone you cannot stand as well as someone you hold near and dear. I personally have no intention of dancing it hot and heavy with any follower I don't really feel a strong bond with and actually aim to keep the first few dances pretty bland until we have scoped each other out and have figured out our comfort levels. Of course, I suck, so maybe I'm just full of it.... Cheers, Jeff From joe.grohens at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:50:30 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:50:30 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: <3F7B1391-4BC9-41F4-8F8F-1056C5091143@gmail.com> I wrote: > >Terrence forgot to mention that "tango was born in the brothels". > >Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. Martin Waxmen wrote: > Popular and perpetuated legend. No historic proof. And, if it was, who cares? I was trying for sarcasm. Guess that wasn't obvious. Terrence Clark's article, despite it's fine sentences, is a bunch of recycled clich?s and unfounded opinions. About the only thing it has going for it is that it bashes tango nuevo dancers. I understand, that thrills a lot of people. Fine. That doesn't make it a great article. And "I am uncomfortable" with his explanation of the importance of dressing properly. "When it is danced by people who know how to dance it, tango is a sensuous undertaking of direct erotic power and great feeling. Dressing well for it gives it even more of this power because the elegance of the dress enhances the fires rising from the soul and the heart. The fires, as it were, hide themselves within the clothing. They smolder there. They're fanned by suggestion and nuance. They begin to appear as the result of the erotic give-and-take between two very involved dancers, and when the flames finally break out, they are truly incendiary." Well, let's watch a traditional couple who really knows how to dance tango, and who are dressed properly. Keep your fire extinguisher handy. You may need a cold shower afterward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKwI0I8xms&feature=related From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Thu Apr 17 16:49:37 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:49:37 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Elegant Moving and Quality Dancing Message-ID: <20080417204533.663952353F4@p3fed1.frb.org> I've been thinking about some common elements in several different threads recently on Tango-L. These include New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace, the Atlanta Tango Festival Video, and the Flaco Dani videos. I find myself wondering how many tango dancers understand the relationship between elegant movement and good dancing. I suspect most see elegant movement as a matter of style, rather than an essential element of technique for dancing tango. In my experience, the body control necessary for elegant movement is an essential element of good leading and following. (I'm not writing about being stiff. That isn't good body control either.) A lack of elegant movement limits the ability to dance. A leader who attempts to lead improvisational movement without sufficient body control makes it difficult for the follower to execute her steps. Some women can compensate for these problems. A follower who moves without sufficient body control, knocks the man of axis and makes it difficult for him to execute the accompanying steps to the woman's movements he has just led. Again, some men can compensate for these problems. Sacrificing the quality of movement, sacrifices the quality of the dance. With best regards, Steve From valerie.dark at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 17:11:59 2008 From: valerie.dark at gmail.com (Valerie Dark) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:11:59 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62e5af2b0804171411ydb4d5f3s2a5bcdbc4651646@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > Sometimes the cortinas take on appearance of a feeding frenzy, with 3 > or 4 men standing around each of the better followers, with the > follower begging for the chance to rest. I once found a follower > sitting behind the counter in the kitchen, hiding. She said she just > wanted to rest a bit without having to turn down someone every 30 > seconds. That's an interesting observation. I have seen the same thing with my own eyes, but with the genders reversed. My boyfriend is a fine dancer. He and I like to dance together and we do it a lot, but when we separate to find other partners, the women simply hound him. He finds it difficult to turn them down. He finds it hard-hearted, so he ends up dancing with a lot of women he doesn't even want to dance with. It's hard for him to find the chance to dance with the partners he likes because he's "servicing" so many. Often, he still declines invitations because he has already promised two or three others in succession. Sometimes the ones he turns down glower and glare at him the rest of the night. Several no longer speak to him (or me). I ask you, is this seemly behavior towards a man in a partnered relationship? I don't want him to have any sense of obligation about me, but if he has a duty to anyone, who moreso than me? Don't you think it's presumptuous for other women to expect so much from a man involved with someone else? He doesn't feel complimented by all the attention. These women are making demands of him. They feel as if they've paid their money to get in and to have a decent dance; somehow it's his duty to provide what they paid for. They often tell him, with pride in their voices, that they are independent and aggressive women who have no fear about extending invitations to men. I wonder how they expect him to respond, with admiring approval? (Incidentally, they all adore me. Or they seem to anyway, because they never fail to sit near me and chat me up while expecting him to return soon.) He tells me he doesn't even want to dance every single tanda in a night. There's so much pressure to meet everyone's expectations, the evenings are far from relaxing. They're hideous. God forbid that he stop for a second to have a drink. The vultures circle around the semi-still form, "I see you're not busy?..." So, get this. He won't even come with me to milongas anymore. I don't even get to dance with him myself except at home or when we go to private parties. Sisters, you are ruining my life! The only milongas he'll attend with me are in Buenos Aires. I'm counting the minutes until our next trip. He won't go to a milonga unless there are reserved seats and nobody approaches your table to ask you to dance. It's the only way he gets some peace and quiet and dances just with people he likes. I wish there were reserved seating milongas north of the equator. We would pay double the going entrada. But there aren't any. Val -- Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark http://crypticember.blogspot.com From spatz at tangoDC.com Thu Apr 17 18:54:44 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:54:44 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <62e5af2b0804171411ydb4d5f3s2a5bcdbc4651646@mail.gmail.com> References: <62e5af2b0804171411ydb4d5f3s2a5bcdbc4651646@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4807D534.6090504@tangoDC.com> Valerie Dark wrote: > My boyfriend is a fine dancer. [...] the women simply hound him. He finds it difficult to turn them down. He finds it hard-hearted, so he ends up dancing with a lot of women he doesn't even want to dance with. > (a) He must learn to turn them down. So far he's only learned to be a pushover, from the sound of it. (b) It can be difficult to lead well when a woman does the inviting, because leading is all about initiative-- and that starts with the invitation to dance. If your boyfriend can dance the woman's part and likes to, let him accept a woman's invitation and dance the woman's part. If she's not going to lead, she shouldn't be asking, and one can point this out nicely. Very simple. (c) When people are asking, they really have to be asking. Not demanding. This goes for everybody. > They often tell him, with pride in their voices, that they are independent and aggressive women who have no fear about > extending invitations to men. I wonder how they expect him to respond How about "You should ask that guy over there, because I like to ask women too. Have you seen Val anywhere?" Really, if the behavior of these women is as ravenous and rude as you describe it, I can't see how any man of integrity would stand up to condone it. These women want to be "macho," but they get it completely wrong. Why is he afraid of fending off their aggression? Certain modes of conduct don't deserve to be respected. Men should learn to hang out with men at the milongas. Then if some tough girl wants to walk up to five men and ask for a dance, let her. Jake From larrynla at juno.com Thu Apr 17 19:08:30 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:08:30 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave Message-ID: <20080417.160830.25152.1@webmail03.dca.untd.com> I have absolutely no trouble watching, learning, or doing nuevo tango - and I'm an old geezer in his 60s. And I certainly don't shave my head or grow a goat's-beard beard or dress in cargo pants. In fact, I usually wear a vest and tie and dance dress shoes and an Armani suit or jacket - NOT for snob appeal but because Armani designs are engineering marvels: comfy, fit right off the rack, and feel as light and cool as elven illusions. Then as the evening wears on I strip off vest then tie then jacket and eventually shift to a short sleeved shirt. And once a month I wear jeans and a tee and tennies just to play around with styles. I think all of you gritching about how awful and shallow and inelegant nuevo is are a bunch of old fogies regardless of your age. Or maybe a bunch of children who never grew up. Lighten up. It's just another of the evolutionary waves that tango has gone through ever since it was invented. Eventually people will assimilate the good parts and reject the silly parts. And the young pups of today grown older will be gritching about the next new thing! Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Click here for free information on starting a business from your home. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieVCyAPTr89tKinTbEYVFkwxuZ7SwbiASFy4HUvdXjkvpfai/ From nina at earthnet.net Thu Apr 17 19:48:58 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:48:58 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <62e5af2b0804171411ydb4d5f3s2a5bcdbc4651646@mail.gmail.com> References: <62e5af2b0804171411ydb4d5f3s2a5bcdbc4651646@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080417174725.01b6ef20@earthnet.net> Hi, Val, Milonga Sans Souci in Denver Colorado. Traditional seating with men and women seated separately and reserved seating for couples. See you there! Nina At 03:11 PM 4/17/2008, Valerie Dark wrote: >I wish there were reserved seating milongas north of the equator. We >would pay double the going entrada. But there aren't any. > >Val >-- >Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark >http://crypticember.blogspot.com >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From tempehuck at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 19:57:59 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:57:59 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave In-Reply-To: <20080417.160830.25152.1@webmail03.dca.untd.com> References: <20080417.160830.25152.1@webmail03.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 4:08 PM, larrynla at juno.com wrote: > > I think all of you gritching about how awful and shallow and inelegant > nuevo is are a bunch of old fogies regardless of your age. Or maybe > a bunch of children who never grew up. Ah, perhaps we are, but at least, unlike you, we did learn to read. It would seem obvious that an author praising both Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas and referring to their moves as "new dance sequences of breath-taking innovation and beauty" could hardly be said to consider nuevo "awful and shallow and inelegant." The article the MACFroggy person posted (written by Terence Clarke) very clearly did not criticize nuevo itself, but rather bad 20-something nuevo-dancer wannabes in cargo pants thinking they are dancing nuevo when in reality they are doing something more resembling a WWF wrestling match. Huck From alex at tangofuego.us Thu Apr 17 20:52:35 2008 From: alex at tangofuego.us (Alex) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:52:35 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Kiss and Tango :: The Book Message-ID: <20080418005553.EED8DEBF061@mit.edu> I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on the book "Kiss and Tango" by Marina Palmer. That is, if you have already read it, or are in the process of reading it. Thanks! Alex From nina at earthnet.net Thu Apr 17 21:19:04 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:19:04 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] dressing well? In-Reply-To: <3F7B1391-4BC9-41F4-8F8F-1056C5091143@gmail.com> References: <3F7B1391-4BC9-41F4-8F8F-1056C5091143@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080417185348.01b40828@earthnet.net> Joe, Yes, indeed, one might need a cold shower or two after that. I would love to see that, instead of the amoeba tango so prevalent everywhere now. Dressing well in tango is not about the clothes. It is about respect - of yourself and others. The author of the article made it very clear that, in his opinion, in bad nuevo, bad clothes communicate no respect. It is about self-care. It is also about the stimulus value - knowing what effect you have on others and being able to control that. Personally, I respect a man that can dress himself well (and does not need a woman to pick out his ties). Maybe the bad clothes communicate "Save me!" or "I am looking for a home". Or maybe they just communiate that a person does not know himself/herself well and how he/she presents himself/herself to the world. Or maybe they say - "Stay away!" or "look at me!", or "I am a rebel!". Or maybe the bad clothes clearly state a "nuevo" gang affilliation. Do they have their colors? :) Dancing well is not a phenomena isolated from other things about a person. A person cannot dance well and remain a slob in his/her life. Tango does not forgive lying. If one tries to lie in this dance, he/she willl pay with self-esteem. Personally, if a man has charm, I don't care what he wears, as long as he smells good. But charm is rare and very expensive in a non-material way. It requires a purposeful cultivation of an innate talent. And a very controlled ego. If a man has charm, he can be a bad dancer and I will not even notice it. But if a man has no charm, then I will hold him to the highest standard of dancing. Best, Nina At 01:50 PM 4/17/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: >Well, let's watch a traditional couple who really knows how to dance >tango, and who are dressed properly. Keep your fire extinguisher >handy. You may need a cold shower afterward. >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKwI0I8xms&feature=related > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From romerob at telusplanet.net Thu Apr 17 21:43:26 2008 From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:43:26 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Modern dance incorporates a few tango moves Message-ID: <1208483006.4807fcbe4051e@webmail.telus.net> Keith wrote: >I think you've got this backwards. I believe these are supposed to be Tango dancers so it's not modern dance incorporating a few Tango poses, it's actually Tango incorporating a lot of modern dance moves. The question is, when does it stop being one and become the other. On that I have no comment< --------------- IMO, it depends, if it is a tango presentation at let's say Sunderland, and dancers want to incorporate ballet movements to one of Pugliese's late tangos. Then, it is a no go by a show of hands. The rationale is seasoned tango people would have rather gone to see a ballet performance featuring Pugliese's music. Cheers, Bruno From amaurycdsf at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 22:22:50 2008 From: amaurycdsf at yahoo.com (Amaury de Siqueira) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave Message-ID: <122190.83306.qm@web62012.mail.re1.yahoo.com> LA has a very interesting group of Nuevo tango dancers. Had a chance to see some of them at 'El Encuentro' and other venues. Unimpressive and often time annoying. -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of larrynla at juno.com Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:09 PM To: tango-L at mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave I have absolutely no trouble watching, learning, or doing nuevo tango - and I'm an old geezer in his 60s. And I certainly don't shave my head or grow a goat's-beard beard or dress in cargo pants. In fact, I usually wear a vest and tie and dance dress shoes and an Armani suit or jacket - NOT for snob appeal but because Armani designs are engineering marvels: comfy, fit right off the rack, and feel as light and cool as elven illusions. Then as the evening wears on I strip off vest then tie then jacket and eventually shift to a short sleeved shirt. And once a month I wear jeans and a tee and tennies just to play around with styles. I think all of you gritching about how awful and shallow and inelegant nuevo is are a bunch of old fogies regardless of your age. Or maybe a bunch of children who never grew up. Lighten up. It's just another of the evolutionary waves that tango has gone through ever since it was invented. Eventually people will assimilate the good parts and reject the silly parts. And the young pups of today grown older will be gritching about the next new thing! Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Click here for free information on starting a business from your home. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieVCyAPTr89tKinTbEYVFkwxuZ 7SwbiASFy4HUvdXjkvpfai/ _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From romerob at telusplanet.net Fri Apr 18 02:35:27 2008 From: romerob at telusplanet.net (romerob@telusplanet.net) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:35:27 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Modern dance incorporates a few tango moves Message-ID: <1208500527.4808412fcb5d5@webmail.telus.net> From: Igor Polk When? When fat Chicho will put someone slimmer and younger - a professional ballet dancer instead of him, and rise to his major role - a choreographer. His partner is already a ballet dancer, professionally trained. So girls, forget about it, if you are not willing to spend 20 hours a week at the bar and become 20-40 years younger ! Igor Polk From martin at waxman.net Fri Apr 18 09:48:03 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:48:03 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <3F7B1391-4BC9-41F4-8F8F-1056C5091143@gmail.com> References: <3F7B1391-4BC9-41F4-8F8F-1056C5091143@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418093654.01eb5dc0@waxman.net> At 03:50 PM 4/17/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: >Well, let's watch a traditional couple who really knows how to dance >tango, and who are dressed properly. Keep your fire extinguisher >handy. You may need a cold shower afterward. >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKwI0I8xms&feature=related I notice, on careful and slow viewing, that Osvaldo mostly dances flatfooted. After those long and thoughtful discussions about toe first or heel first, I propose a new thread. I have carefully watched the "masters" and other great milongueros arriving at milongas and changing their shoes (some wear their street shoes). Is it put on left tango shoe first or right tango shoe first? Which technique is better? On to another important question. On a side step, should you evert the free foot or not? Marty From joe.grohens at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 11:33:13 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:33:13 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Message-ID: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> Martin Waxman: > I have carefully watched the "masters" and other great milongueros > arriving at milongas and changing their shoes (some wear their > street shoes). Is it put on left tango shoe first or right tango > shoe first? Which technique is better? Marty It was said, there is a different method of putting on shoes for each neighborhood of Bs As. But I can't figure that out. There are 48 districts, but only two feet. Maybe there is a style of lacing the shoes that differs from district to district. > On to another important question. On a side step, should you evert > the free foot or not? This I actually do consider an important question. A small amount of turn out gives a person more stability, the spine is more easily aligned over the heel, and one is ready to pivot if necessary to adjust direction. Many people have the toes parallel or turned in, and have a tendency when walking, standing or pivoting to roll to the outside of the foot, which interferes with balance. From jjg at jqhome.net Fri Apr 18 12:08:57 2008 From: jjg at jqhome.net (Jeff Gaynor) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:08:57 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> References: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4808C799.4060505@jqhome.net> Joe Grohens wrote: >> On to another important question. On a side step, should you evert >> the free foot or not? >> > > This I actually do consider an important question. A small amount of > turn out gives a person more stability, the spine is more easily > aligned over the heel, and one is ready to pivot if necessary to > adjust direction. Many people have the toes parallel or turned in, and > have a tendency when walking, standing or pivoting to roll to the > outside of the foot, which interferes with balance. > Not so fast. This is dependent on the structure of the lower limbs. Pretty much everyone has curvature and twist to the shin and flexibility of the hips plays a role too. What looks unstable for you might be quite stable for someone else. The first half of your comment simply reflects that you are taking this into account. Indeed, for many people having them stand with their toes pointing straight forward is putting shear on their knees. One they start walking, they will either adapt at the hip or, if stiff there, will start trying to use their lower back as a stabilizer (especially if they have a tight psoas muscle). At least, that is what I see at classes... Here is a way to test where your feet go. Hop up and down 3 times. Notice where your feet are. This is the most natural stable position for you and where your feet will end up when you aren't paying attention. The idea is to use your body's kinesthetic sense to tell you where your feet go. It is better to ask the body what it knows about itself than ask the person since, as I'm sure you've noticed, many people start to do funny things when you ask them to consciously move. Also, people tend to roll to the outside of the foot or end up on the heel when they pivot because they do not realize that the pivot occurs at the hip. The trick is to slightly lift the heel, stay on the ball and keep the foot under you as you do the move. Keeping the foot down on a pivot means that the knee will get torque on it. In tango you shouldn't be moving high loads or moving explosively, but wear and tear will accumulate. In other athletic undertakings a bad pivot often means a blown knee joint. Cheers, Jeff From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 12:27:09 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:27:09 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] New "nuevo tango" Sacrifices Tradition and Grace In-Reply-To: <4808C799.4060505@jqhome.net> References: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> <4808C799.4060505@jqhome.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Jeff Gaynor wrote: > Joe Grohens wrote: > >> On to another important question. On a side step, should you evert > >> the free foot or not? > >> > > > The idea is to use your body's kinesthetic sense to tell you where your > feet go. It is better to ask the body what it knows about itself than > ask the person since, as I'm sure you've noticed, many people start to > do funny things when you ask them to consciously move. > The importance of the body's kinesthetic sense is not stressed enough. Dancers walking need to be comfortable with their own bodies. In practice the body often finds the most stable walk for the person's physical characteristics. The instructor's role can be to correct errors that result in imbalance or other physical problems (e.g., pulling or pushing your partner off balance). While there is a place in instruction for detailed description of technique regarding how to place the foot, change weight, etc., I believe it is more important to guide students in recognizing their kinesthetic sense and using the information it provides. We have all seen people walking awkwardly after a technique class. Save this for the most advanced dancers, who have the experience to decide for themselves what applies to them and what does not. Most of the rest need to be comfortable in their bodies dancing first. Ron From jayrabe at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 12:46:29 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:46:29 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - reply to Ron In-Reply-To: References: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> <4808C799.4060505@jqhome.net> Message-ID: Ron of Tango.Society wrote... > The importance of the body's kinesthetic sense is not stressed enough. > Dancers walking need to be comfortable with their own bodies. In > practice the body often finds the most stable walk for the person's > physical characteristics. The instructor's role can be to correct > errors that result in imbalance or other physical problems (e.g., > pulling or pushing your partner off balance). -------------- True, but OTOH, the foundation of Alexander Technique is the observation that movement or posture that feels comfortable is often wrong from a structural standpoint, and though it arose as a consequence of the body's appropriate adaptation or accommodation to an injury or bad shoes, it progresses to feeling comfortable and natural through months or years of habitual repetition. The instructor's role then becomes a bit more complicated and difficult, in bringing the dancer's attention to the issue so they can correct it if possible. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 12:56:41 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] A very pretty dance- YouTube Message-ID: <18418.19050.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amanda y Adrian..this couple is doing an improvised tango in BsAs.. there is something very sweet about their dance. Also, notice some nice camera work when they approach where the filmer is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hA8nn0Mur4 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 13:07:31 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <717933.90114.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi folks, Now that I have more time, I'd thought I'd share my policy for dealing with this sensitive issue. Perhaps it will help others who need to deal with people exhibiting undesirable behavior. The bottom line for me is this: - Does someone's repeated actions create an unhealthy learning environment for beginners? - Does it show disrespect for beginners or my invited guests? If the answer to these questions is "yes", then that person is simply not allowed to come to any of our events. Before being barred, I approach the person about his/her behavior. If the person recognizes his/her error and corrects it, then he/she is still welcome. If not, then he/she is not welcome. Most of the time, such a person avoids our events, anyway, so I've only had to bar 2 people. With all of the work I and scores of others here do to attract and make beginners feel welcome, I don't feel at all obligated to make someone with an oversized ego feel welcome at our events. I also specify beginners because this is a special group. These are people who are still learning what our community group is like and what the social norms are. With experienced dancers, I expect them to be able to set their own boundaries. Beginners, though, need time to figure out what their boundaries are. I don't announce these actions, but gossip gets around. So how does the community handle it? They usually fall into 3 groups: - those who are okay with the action, - those who are indifferent, - those who disagree with the action. Generally, people know me well enough to realize that there's always a good reason for anything I do. They also know that I have my community's best interests at heart. As far as the latter goes, they are always third-parties that have nothing to do with the incident. If they bring up issues, my response is simply that the problem doesn't involve them. If they decide to involve themselves with another person's problem, that is their own personal issue to deal with and not mine. The focus always goes back to the teaching environment. The long-term results after such incidents have been very good, both in terms of social norms and teaching. While there were short-term problems, the long-term effects have been quite positive. Where I think some community leaders fail is in simply, well, leading their communities. I think many people fall into it by default, which is what happened with me. But if one is to continue to be a community leader, then one must be willing to make decisions, take responsibility, and lead. And not be wishy-washy. By this time, you either have the trust of your community or you don't. For managing crises, the textbook case is the Tylenol scare. As this article points out, what guided the company was its mission statement written 40 years earlier. If community leaders decide on their mission statement and support it, then I think most crises can be handled fairly easily. http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall02/Susi/tylenol.htm Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 18 13:11:18 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango in a nutshell (..If that's all there is to dance in..) Message-ID: <430943.58619.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Friday night Milonga in San Miguel de Allende has live music and a small dance floor. Last week, two new Nuevo couples came into town and visited the Milonga. They were pretty advanced dancers. One leader had followed Gustavo all over the world taking classes for three years from him.. in the other couple, the follow had danced in San Francisco for years with Marcello...credentials! Anyway, it was entertaining to watch them. They were expressive and embellished beautifully. Later in the night, the lead (above) mentioned to me (gesturing towards the dancefloor) that there was only enough space for barely six couples maximum. As the other Nuevo couple were presently dancing, it was easy to see what he was talking about..just by seeing the space that that couple was occupying and looking at the rest of the floor available, six couples would be the maximum occupancy (to be safe) and they had better be aware of where the other five couples were. O.K. the point is;..prior to this, we only had one resident couple dancing Nuevo. The same floor was accomodating 8 and 10 couples at a time easily with no danger to life nor limb... and so, isn't this THE problem between.. Nuevo y Viejo..in a nutshell ?? --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Fri Apr 18 13:24:21 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:24:21 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Video from Buenos Aires Message-ID: <4808D945.1080004@lavidacondeby.com> This video is on the digital edition of the Clarin one of our local newspapers. You can see it in English or Spanish. Make sure you click on all the options. It is very well done. http://www.clarin.com/diario/2008/04/09/conexiones/inicio_tango_es.html From thorn-inside at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 13:52:53 2008 From: thorn-inside at hotmail.com (David Thorn) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:52:53 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango Bashing Message-ID: I am in my 60s and dance close embrace. When I go out to dance, I wear overpriced wool slacks and overpriced conservative dress shirts. I am not sure that I know what "cargo pants" are. Sometimes I wear a tie. I am slightly overweight and have gray hair. Long live the old fogies. But even I absolutely do not understand the value added to essentially ANY of the discussions here on Tango-L by the whiners who constantly b at tch about bad nuevo dancers. Grow up and get a life!! I have seen great traditional dancers (e.g. Ricardo Vidort). They are graceful and lovely to watch! I have seen great nuevo dancers (e.g. Fabian Salas). They are graceful and lovely to watch! I have seen excremental dancing by both traditional and nuevo dancers. Mostly the bad nuevo dancers are young and look like they are having fun. Mostly the bad traditional dancers are old and look like they need to change their Depends. Now can we drop the arrogant b at tching & whining and get on with anything that adds value to the discussions on this list rather than just wastes bandwidth? Please? Respectfully, D. David Thorn _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Fri Apr 18 13:53:49 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:53:49 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Clarin Tango Video Message-ID: <4808E02D.9010902@lavidacondeby.com> The world of technology, I used the email link they provide and it did not work. This one does: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2008/04/15/conexiones/inicio_tango.html From tango.society at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 14:18:02 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - reply to Ron In-Reply-To: References: <6DCDE9FA-5425-46BB-8099-9973765B1318@gmail.com> <4808C799.4060505@jqhome.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Jay Rabe wrote: > True, but OTOH, the foundation of Alexander Technique is the observation that movement or posture that feels comfortable is often wrong from a structural standpoint, and though it arose as a consequence of the body's appropriate adaptation or accommodation to an injury or bad shoes, it progresses to feeling comfortable and natural through months or years of habitual repetition. The instructor's role then becomes a bit more complicated and difficult, in bringing the dancer's attention to the issue so they can correct it if possible. > Each dancer needs to be comfortable with their movements. Different anatomical characteristics, including injury, will make a 'one size fits all' approach inapplicable. Dancers who are made to feel uncomfortable in their bodies will stop dancing tango. Where the instructor needs to intervene in particular is where one dancer's position of comfort makes another dancer uncomfortable, whether that 'other dancer' is the partner, or some other dancer on the dance floor. If is also noteworthy that different instructors recommend different technique, much of which has been a source of debate on this list (e.g., heel first vs. toe first, position of the woman's head in the embrace). Some of these technique differences reflect personal preferences and some reflect stylistic differences. There is no one optimal technique for every dancer or every style. For example, to say that the same technique is used dancing in a close embrace versus an open frame is erroneous and misleading. Rather than focusing on details, one should focus on the common ground of technique, e.g., balance and stability, coordination of movements between partners. Remember, tango has been danced for over 100 years by people in Buenos Aires who have not had extensive training. Most good dancers developed on their own, by many kilometers of walking on the dance floor. Innate body knowledge (kinesthetic sense) is an important evolutionary adaptation in developing physical skills. However, it doesn't sell classes like Alexander technique. Ron From Crrtango at aol.com Fri Apr 18 13:51:10 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:51:10 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] tango in a nutshell Message-ID: sopelote wrote: <<<>>> First there is no such thing as viejo tango...those are your words. People, especially newcomers on this list, are already confused about names of dance styles, so let's not create yet another category...second, it is true of any style of dance that is open and expansive and not about sharing the floor, not just "nuevo." In a nutshell, it is the difference between performing and social dancing. Milongas in the US and other places like San Miguel are not as crowded as Buenos Aires where traditional dancers are very aware of other dancers around them and dance accordingly. The same size floor in Bs. As. would probably hold about twenty couples or more. For your guest to say there is only enough room for six couples says more about his tastes in dancing than about the size of your dance floor. Cheesr, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From Crrtango at aol.com Fri Apr 18 14:26:20 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:26:20 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] speak up if you are... Message-ID: Trini wrote: - Does someone's repeated actions create an unhealthy learning environment for beginners? - Does it show disrespect for beginners or my invited guests? Disruptive behavior should not be encouraged in any form so I agree with you about this. Maybe we need milongas based on attitude and ego also. Social dancing is just that...social dancing. The same goes for so-called advanced dancers who manhandle beginners or teach them on the floor, and are usually pretty bad themselves. I ran a practica years ago at Sandra Cameron Dance Center here. One night a student was dancing with a new person who had perhaps two or three lessons and he was constantly trying steps that were totally confusing to the beginner who looked very uncomfortable...she almost fell down. He even had the nerve to get impatient with her, correcting her constantly. Needless to say he wasn't very good, he just knew more steps. I interrupted him and told him to leave if he couldn't dance in consideration of her level. He became very indignant saying he payed money to learn there, yadda, yadda and went to Sandra to complain. After I explained to her, she told him the same...be respectful of your partner and don't disrupt the dance floor or leave. Sometimes etiquette and customs need to be taught and gently enforced. They don't come naturally to some people, nor does the concept of social dancing...too many people know tango only from the stage and videos. This seems to be mostly a leader problem so if a leader makes you feel uncomfortable, politely decline to continue. You don't have to finish the tanda with him. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From martin at waxman.net Fri Apr 18 15:13:31 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:13:31 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango Bashing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418143856.01f17b68@waxman.net> At 01:52 PM 4/18/2008, David Thorn wrote: >I am in my 60s and dance close embrace.... Now can we drop the >arrogant b at tching & whining and get on with anything that adds value >to the discussions on this list rather than just wastes bandwidth? Please? David, I hope that youngsters like you eventually understand that there is no wasted bandwidth. As you grow much, much, much older and get to be my age, you will hopefully find out that there is something to be learned from every post -- even if it's to reject the post as uninformed nonsense. So, I believe the threads are all useful in some way. By the way, I also dance close embrace, and encourage it at the weekly, all level, afternoon practica I host on the east side of midtown Manhattan in New York City. I do not insist that attendees also dance close embrace -- they can practice whatever style they want. However, I do announce that even though it is a practica, keeping the ronda is essential. That's so they also practice for the real world of the milonga. Marty From tempehuck at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 18:21:42 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:21:42 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke worsens over Buenos Aires Message-ID: Wow, this doesn't look like very much fun. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7355723.stm Anyone down there care to comment on what it's like? Huck From tl2 at chrisjj.com Fri Apr 18 19:43:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: <717933.90114.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > if one is to continue to be a community leader, then one must be willing > to make decisions, take responsibility, and lead. ... you either have > the trust of your community or you don't. One has to wonder as to the unique factors of third world tango that give rise to such a bizarre phenomenon. In the first and second tango worlds, I'm sure I've never met or even heard of anyone adopting a title such as "community leader". And not just because no-one doomed to be a part of a tango scene dysfunctional enough to need such a thing would so choose to draw attention to the fact. > For managing crises, the textbook case is the Tylenol scare. For further discussion of how a case of the deaths of pain-killer users through cyanide poisoning of their medicines inspires the practices of tango "community leaders", would someone please start a separate mailing list? A /very/ separate mailing list. Thank you. Happy dancing, everyone! -- Chris From tangotangotango at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 21:47:21 2008 From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:47:21 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke worsens over Buenos Aires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fb1555a0804181847v10951b3te6823c2c6c2540e7@mail.gmail.com> It is horrible. Five days with sore throat and eyes. Visibility is only a couple of blocks. The smoke is even visible inside. My place smells like a bonfire. I think the farmers shot themselves in the foot on this one. Whatever sympathy they may have had in the capital in regards to the new tax scheme have quickly evaporated. Neil On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Huck Kennedy wrote: > Wow, this doesn't look like very much fun. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7355723.stm > > Anyone down there care to comment on what it's like? > > Huck > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From nina at earthnet.net Fri Apr 18 22:12:53 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:12:53 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke worsens over Buenos Aires In-Reply-To: <9fb1555a0804181847v10951b3te6823c2c6c2540e7@mail.gmail.com > References: <9fb1555a0804181847v10951b3te6823c2c6c2540e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080418200249.01b37010@earthnet.net> Huck, Thank you for posting the link. I didn't know about this. This made me sad. Argentine people suffer a lot. They are not angry people. They are very compassionate. And they are kind and compassionate to each other when all kinds of things happen. I was in Argentina when the economic crisis just happened. So many people lost so much! Especially those who already had very little. The people seemed lost and very sad, and maybe a little angry, but their anger was nothing in comparison to what anger looks like in other countries. They felt the discouragement and sadness in their hearts. The feeling was very strong and I felt it too. I become a kinder, nicer person when I am in Argentina. I wish that the smoke leaves very soon and that the people are well. Nina From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 00:14:59 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The master dances another Vals for Youtubers Message-ID: <27969.13834.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alberto Dassieu y Paulina Spinoso dancing the Vals Alberto is my favorite vals dancer...he is VERY grounded and earthy.. I get a good feeling just watching him dance...I sometimes feel like I am doing his style when I dance the Vals,,it's a great feeling! ..here it is enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZX7BBdeP60 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Sat Apr 19 00:56:45 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:56:45 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Left or Right shoe first? Message-ID: <48097B8D.000005.00496@OEM-COMPUTER> Martin asks: > Is it put on left tango shoe first or right tango shoe first? > Which technique is better? I always put my left shoe on first, whether to dance tango or simply walk. I am right handed so I feel this balances me out. Thanks for bringing this important and often overlooked topic up. Bye, Mel. From febaker at buffalotango.com Sat Apr 19 10:05:25 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:05:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: <51540.1208338796@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <05rj04tfnljee28s4du3an1li9httrpqkp@4ax.com> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:03 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >> why do these problems NOT occur in the milongas of BsAs and, IMHO, the >> answer is obvious. The codes of the milonga prevent it. > >This is a misunderstanding. The codes of BA milongas prevent nothing. They >are simply a description of prevalent behaviour. > >> cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. >> Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not dancing >> consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. > >"Should be encouraged" how and by whom, exactly?? The owner of the establishment or whoever runs the dance and hires the dj... Give orders to the dj being do not start a new tanda until the floor is clear. Just do a second cortina, and a third if necessary until everyone starts looking at the couple(s) still standing. Make notice of this known... Or one could create areas of seating or standing similar to smoking and no smoking. Cabeceo Only and Tango Hogs.... For each gender... :-) >> the ladies will need equal education on the use of the cabaceo. > >Uh oh. Next it'll be milonga etiquette instructional placemats again... Good idea... When I mentioned the KISS method for teaching, in an earlier post, people asked me what that meant. New generations and other cultures need to be informed.. Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sat Apr 19 13:59:20 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:59:20 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480A32F8.8060302@lavidacondeby.com> It is a nightmare. It is like I went to bed in BA and woke up in LA....or DF. I live on the 17th floor and it is one time where it is not such a great thing. I cannot see the buildings in front of my apartment. My eyes, nose, and throat are burning. I feel like I have eternal bronchitis. Those same farmers that tried to starve us last month are now trying to suffocate us. Last night at Gricel, people were complaining and low energy. Most of us were out because we are sick of staying in. Several people told me that they were not dancing because they have asthma and did not want to aggravate it any more than it was. They came to see friends and listen to the music. I left early as did many of my friends. On a positive note, Ni?o Bien has finally reopened. All your favorite milongas are now open: Atilio on Mondays from 6 - 12, Luis Wednesdays from 6 - 11, Friday from 6 - 1, Ni?o Bien on Thursdays 10 - 4am, and Enrique from 4 - 11 on Saturdays. Don't forget Patricio and Adriana moved from Cabrera SoHo on Wednesdays to Club Gricel, 10 - 3am. (Cabrera SoHo was also shut down and there is no reopening date) From dchester at charter.net Sat Apr 19 18:20:42 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:20:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Left or Right shoe first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080419182042.3JPSI.37646.root@fepweb03> Of course the left shoe goes on first. Those nuevo types are the only ones who start with the right shoe. Hope this helps, David ------------------------------------- > From: "Melroy" > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Left or Right shoe first? > To: > > Martin asks: > > Is it put on left tango shoe first or right tango shoe first? > > Which technique is better? > > I always put my left shoe on first, whether to dance tango or simply walk. > I am right handed so I feel this balances me out. > > Thanks for bringing this important and often overlooked topic up. > Bye, Mel. From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 18:35:37 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Left or Right shoe first? In-Reply-To: <20080419182042.3JPSI.37646.root@fepweb03> Message-ID: <21195.60917.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > Of course the left shoe goes on first. That's for liberal traditionalists. Those nuevo > types are the only ones who start with the right > shoe. Only the neo-conservative nuevos. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Crrtango at aol.com Sat Apr 19 22:46:59 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:46:59 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Transportation tip-Bs. As. Message-ID: A travel tip for those heading off to Buenos Aires. If you have been before, you may be aware of this. It is often recommended that you go into the city with the "official" service at the Taxiezeiza counter at the airport, for several reasons, one being security, another that you won't be overcharged for the trip. They are called remis taxis (ray-mees) and are yellow and black (they are ubiquitous, like yellow cabs). We noticed on our recent trip that the fare from Ezeiza airport was $88. pesos. However, the same fare on the meter coming back to the airport with a taxi hailed on the street was closer to $65. pesos (at rush hour) which it would also be going in, no doubt. It is admittedly not a huge amount of money (about US $8.) but depending on your budget, it might be worth it. So if you are familiar with the airport and want to save a little money, you could take one from the curb at the passenger pickup. Just always make sure the cab is a yellow and black remis taxi and not a plain solid-colored car...that goes for getting around town also. If you have lots of luggage, or for peace of mind, this may not be worth the trouble, but when returning to the airport you will probably do better just hailing a taxi from the street and paying the meter fare, instead of calling to reserve one, which charges a commission. You might ask when you get in, how much? just to be sure. But having said that, you might want to take note of the cost of fares if you go to the same part of town more than once, or if returning home from a milonga. Sometimes the fare will vary although it is the same route. We were told that some drivers have ways to run up the meter and one evening we did pay about $10. pesos more returning home. These seem to be exceptions as most of the drivers are courteous and helpful but it never hurts to pay attention. buen viaje, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 20 08:59:10 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 08:59:10 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA In-Reply-To: <480A32F8.8060302@lavidacondeby.com> References: <480A32F8.8060302@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: It's fall down there and the grasses are dry. Beyond the lightning which is blamed, there are also children who always get a kick out of grass fires.., and when they see the ruckus they're causing, they'd tend to do it even more... I know in Atlanta for instance where they have very little below freezing temps, when it does happen, some kids like to open the hydrants for a bit.., to black ice the streets... They like to see the cars spin around... Then too.., if it is the farmers themselves? Has anyone bothered to see their living conditions? Their standard of living. And the government is putting restrictions on them too? They may see dissuading "rich American's" from coming down, or staying, as a *very* good method to fight back. One does what they gotta do, and money rules... Maybe the government should try providing the farmers with livestock feed, or whatever their problem is, if they're not allowed to take care of it themselves...? Clearing dead grass areas IS a good idea after all. In any case.., once it's all burned off it's the buenos aires will flow again. Until next fall... Floyd On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:59:20 -0300, you wrote: >It is a nightmare. It is like I went to bed in BA and woke up in >LA....or DF. I live on the 17th floor and it is one time where it is >not such a great thing. I cannot see the buildings in front of my >apartment. My eyes, nose, and throat are burning. I feel like I have >eternal bronchitis. Those same farmers that tried to starve us last >month are now trying to suffocate us. > >Last night at Gricel, people were complaining and low energy. Most of >us were out because we are sick of staying in. Several people told me >that they were not dancing because they have asthma and did not want to >aggravate it any more than it was. They came to see friends and listen >to the music. I left early as did many of my friends. > >On a positive note, Ni?o Bien has finally reopened. All your favorite >milongas are now open: Atilio on Mondays from 6 - 12, Luis Wednesdays >from 6 - 11, Friday from 6 - 1, Ni?o Bien on Thursdays 10 - 4am, and >Enrique from 4 - 11 on Saturdays. Don't forget Patricio and Adriana >moved from Cabrera SoHo on Wednesdays to Club Gricel, 10 - 3am. >(Cabrera SoHo was also shut down and there is no reopening date) >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tangotangotango at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 11:20:17 2008 From: tangotangotango at gmail.com (Tango Tango) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:20:17 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA In-Reply-To: References: <480A32F8.8060302@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <9fb1555a0804200820k7d45ed26x6fcc16d91db14ba7@mail.gmail.com> Floyd. You have no idea what you are talking about. People have died, others are in the hospital. Airports and roads are closed. This was an act of terrorism. Two farmers have been arrested and a third is sought. Lightning doesn't start 300 fires over 70000 hectars on the same day. Neil On 4/20/08, Floyd Baker wrote: > > > > It's fall down there and the grasses are dry. Beyond the lightning > which is blamed, there are also children who always get a kick out of > grass fires.., and when they see the ruckus they're causing, they'd > tend to do it even more... > > I know in Atlanta for instance where they have very little below > freezing temps, when it does happen, some kids like to open the > hydrants for a bit.., to black ice the streets... They like to see > the cars spin around... > > Then too.., if it is the farmers themselves? Has anyone bothered to > see their living conditions? Their standard of living. And the > government is putting restrictions on them too? They may see > dissuading "rich American's" from coming down, or staying, as a *very* > good method to fight back. One does what they gotta do, and money > rules... Maybe the government should try providing the farmers with > livestock feed, or whatever their problem is, if they're not allowed > to take care of it themselves...? > > Clearing dead grass areas IS a good idea after all. > > In any case.., once it's all burned off it's the buenos aires will > flow again. > > Until next fall... > > Floyd > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:59:20 -0300, you wrote: > > >It is a nightmare. It is like I went to bed in BA and woke up in > >LA....or DF. I live on the 17th floor and it is one time where it is > >not such a great thing. I cannot see the buildings in front of my > >apartment. My eyes, nose, and throat are burning. I feel like I have > >eternal bronchitis. Those same farmers that tried to starve us last > >month are now trying to suffocate us. > > > >Last night at Gricel, people were complaining and low energy. Most of > >us were out because we are sick of staying in. Several people told me > >that they were not dancing because they have asthma and did not want to > >aggravate it any more than it was. They came to see friends and listen > >to the music. I left early as did many of my friends. > > > >On a positive note, Ni?o Bien has finally reopened. All your favorite > >milongas are now open: Atilio on Mondays from 6 - 12, Luis Wednesdays > >from 6 - 11, Friday from 6 - 1, Ni?o Bien on Thursdays 10 - 4am, and > >Enrique from 4 - 11 on Saturdays. Don't forget Patricio and Adriana > >moved from Cabrera SoHo on Wednesdays to Club Gricel, 10 - 3am. > >(Cabrera SoHo was also shut down and there is no reopening date) > >_______________________________________________ > >Tango-L mailing list > >Tango-L at mit.edu > >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango > * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * > > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sun Apr 20 11:57:02 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:02 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA Message-ID: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> I am sorry Floyd but you have no clue. You should read a little more before you state an opinion that is completely ignorant. The farmers here are some of the richest people in the country. They have a very high standard of living. Agribusiness came to Argentina during the crisis. There are very few small farms left, just like in the U.S. The difference here is that we have stricter controls over the use of hormones, feed, and genetic engineering. My friend from Texas owns 3 ranches here with his Argentine partners. He is not the exception. Talk to anyone from Argentina and they will tell you that the money is with farming now. The guys that set the fires are millionaires. They were clearing the land to plant more soy. These were grasslands used to feed cattle. These are the same people who last month were protesting the 16% increase on soy export taxes as being unfair. My friend who is the attorney for one of the provinces said the 16% tax to them is nothing compared to the huge profits they reap. They protested to try and make the president look bad for the tax, and it backfired on them. This situation with the grasslands was a horror story. You could not see more than 100 meters in front of you. All major highways were closed. The subte was closed down. This was a crisis due to the greed and stupidity of a few people. There have been over 100 arrested and 3 people so far are being charged. Hospitals were overflowing with people who were asthmatics that could not breathe. The carbon monoxide was causing us to be eternally tired and they were very fearful of the levels. My plants on my 17th floor balcony were dying. I was part of the horrendous fire that was in Oakland California in 1991 that was considered one of the worst wildfires in the history of the U.S. It did not even come close to what was happening here. From barbara at tangobar-productions.com Sun Apr 20 12:30:37 2008 From: barbara at tangobar-productions.com (Barbara Garvey) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:30:37 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Transportation tip-Bs. As. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480B6FAD.6040605@tangobar-productions.com> A comment on airport taxis: It is my understanding that in some cities taxis pay a special tax to pick up passengers at airports. This is true here in Puerto Vallarta, thus it is always much more expensive from the airport into town than vice versa. In fact here only specific taxis can pick up at the airport. This does not mean the taxis are ripping you off. Perhaps someone who lives in BsAs could explain the current situation there. Barbara Crrtango at aol.com wrote: >A travel tip for those heading off to Buenos Aires. If you have been >before, you may be aware of this. It is often recommended that you go into the >city with the "official" service at the Taxiezeiza counter at the airport, for >several reasons, one being security, another that you won't be overcharged for >the trip. They are called remis taxis (ray-mees) and are yellow and black >(they are ubiquitous, like yellow cabs). We noticed on our recent trip that the >fare from Ezeiza airport was $88. pesos. However, the same fare on the meter >coming back to the airport with a taxi hailed on the street was closer to $65. >pesos (at rush hour) which it would also be going in, no doubt. It is >admittedly not a huge amount of money (about US $8.) but depending on your budget, it >might be worth it. So if you are familiar with the airport and want to save >a little money, you could take one from the curb at the passenger pickup. >Just always make sure the cab is a yellow and black remis taxi and not a plain >solid-colored car...that goes for getting around town also. > >If you have lots of luggage, or for peace of mind, this may not be worth the >trouble, but when returning to the airport you will probably do better just >hailing a taxi from the street and paying the meter fare, instead of calling to >reserve one, which charges a commission. You might ask when you get in, how >much? just to be sure. > >But having said that, you might want to take note of the cost of fares if you >go to the same part of town more than once, or if returning home from a >milonga. Sometimes the fare will vary although it is the same route. We were told >that some drivers have ways to run up the meter and one evening we did pay >about $10. pesos more returning home. These seem to be exceptions as most of the >drivers are courteous and helpful but it never hurts to pay attention. > >buen viaje, > >Charles > > >************** >Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. >used car listings at AOL Autos. > >(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > > > From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Sun Apr 20 13:11:40 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:11:40 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Taxi Fares In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480B794C.4070407@lavidacondeby.com> The taxi fares from the airport cost more than going back. The reason is they pay parking and a tax. It will not matter which company you use. I always recommend Taxi Ezeiza because it is the least expensive. It is a little farther out in the terminal. It is not the "official" service in the airport. There are many. They vary in prices. What you do not want to do is to take a regular taxi or go with one of the guys who stand in front of the customs exit. You want to go where you prepay before you get in a taxi. That way you know what you are going to be charged, and the driver is accountable. When you return to the airport you can call one of the taxi companies directly - Del Plata, Premium, or a remis service to come get you. As of right now the cost is between 70-75 pesos including the tolls. It is better to go with a set price than a meter. You never know what the traffic is going to be like and you could end up paying far more sitting in traffic. I never understand people who come here with USD or Euros who want to save 5 - 10 pesos over their safety. From arborlaw at comcast.net Sun Apr 20 13:27:58 2008 From: arborlaw at comcast.net (Carol Shepherd) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:27:58 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Taxis In-Reply-To: <480B6FAD.6040605@tangobar-productions.com> References: <480B6FAD.6040605@tangobar-productions.com> Message-ID: <480B7D1E.1020007@comcast.net> The airport taxi "special tax" is the rule in many US cities and in the international capitals. Most international airports charge non-airport-licensed taxis a "pick-up" ticket per fare (the upcharge at Detroit Metro is $10 -- ie, adds $10 to the mileage fare). The airport's own taxis are typically a magnificent revenue source for the airport so they give their own fleet this competitive price advantage. Add to this, the fact that taxi fares are set by their own licensing authority/municipality -- if the airport is not within the same city as the taxi, the rate will be different: a taxi licensed in Ann Arbor going to Detroit Metro is charging an Ann Arbor rate, while a Detroit Metro taxi going to Ann Arbor (the exact same distance) is charging a Detroit rate which is .25/mi less. Also, when the axle is not turning (traffic, backups, standing and waiting while you go into a store), most taxi meters charge "wait time" which varies widely. These are not dictated by the licensing authority in most cities, they vary from taxi company to company. Typically wait time is a lot less expensive than mileage but in some large cities with bad traffic at rush hour wait time equal mileage or are more. Sometimes it is up to the driver and they will turn time off and just charge mileage, for a good fare. I'm sure Janis et al. (tango trip host/promoters) know whether there are different taxi meter rates and what they are. When I was in BsAs I took the airport shuttle bus to/from one of the hotels that left on the hour six times a day (in Belgrano I think). It was a fraction of the cab cost. Everything you ever wanted to know about taxis. Barbara Garvey wrote: > A comment on airport taxis: > It is my understanding that in some cities taxis pay a special tax to > pick up passengers at airports. This is true here in Puerto Vallarta, > thus it is always much more expensive from the airport into town than > vice versa. In fact here only specific taxis can pick up at the airport. > This does not mean the taxis are ripping you off. Perhaps someone who > lives in BsAs could explain the current situation there. > Barbara > > > Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > >> A travel tip for those heading off to Buenos Aires. If you have been >> before, you may be aware of this. It is often recommended that you go into the >> city with the "official" service at the Taxiezeiza counter at the airport, for >> several reasons, one being security, another that you won't be overcharged for >> the trip. They are called remis taxis (ray-mees) and are yellow and black >> (they are ubiquitous, like yellow cabs). We noticed on our recent trip that the >> fare from Ezeiza airport was $88. pesos. However, the same fare on the meter >> coming back to the airport with a taxi hailed on the street was closer to $65. >> pesos (at rush hour) which it would also be going in, no doubt. It is >> admittedly not a huge amount of money (about US $8.) but depending on your budget, it >> might be worth it. So if you are familiar with the airport and want to save >> a little money, you could take one from the curb at the passenger pickup. >> Just always make sure the cab is a yellow and black remis taxi and not a plain >> solid-colored car...that goes for getting around town also. >> -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.biz From nina at earthnet.net Sun Apr 20 13:34:47 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:34:47 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA In-Reply-To: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> References: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080420112745.01b62f40@earthnet.net> The worse part is that there is no escape for anyone, regardless of the person's health conditions. They are predicting a weather change on Tuesday, saying that the smoke should clear quickly. I wish all of you who are visiting or who live in Buenos Aires to be well, and that this disaster passes and does not harm you in any way. NIna From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 20 15:00:11 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:00:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA In-Reply-To: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> References: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: Right now I consider this *entire* subject with it's various threads to be off topic., and I'm sorry I entered into it. It is all to do with smoke, and not about Tango. Beyond that., it is very unfortunate for all the victims and terrible conditions that you say exist. I do understand that., and I feel for those who are suffering. Here is my private response to your private email. The one not addressed to Tango-L Both of which are identical afai can see. Deby.. To me it was a 'possiblity'. I have not been there nor know the farmer's standard of living. So, I believe my statement was put in the manner of a question...? If anyone knew what their standard of living was. You seem to know. Fine. They're millonairs ;-/ No difference! Money still rules, eh? If not the lightning, or the kids, or 'starving' farmers.., then people will still do what it takes to get things done to suit themselves. I would say that a 16 percent increase IS excessive. No matter they can 'afford' it. Perhaps the government should help to increase production and export, instead of charging more for what is *already* being done. Grasslands exist all over the country. I'm sure there would be no problem growing soy somewhere other than upwind of the city.., right? And it could be mandated..? So what is the 'real' problem. And will it continue to happen? Can anyone give a Tango related solution? Abrazos... Floyd On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:02 -0300, you wrote: > >I am sorry Floyd but you have no clue. You should read a little more >before you state an opinion that is completely ignorant. The farmers >here are some of the richest people in the country. They have a very high standard >of living. Agribusiness came to Argentina during the crisis. There are >very few small farms left, just like in the U.S. The difference here is >that we have stricter controls over the use of hormones, feed, and >genetic engineering. > >My friend from Texas owns 3 ranches here with his Argentine partners. >He is not the exception. Talk to anyone from Argentina and they will >tell you that the money is with farming now. The guys that set the >fires are millionaires. They were clearing the land to plant more soy. >These were grasslands used to feed cattle. These are the same people who >last month were protesting the 16% increase on soy export taxes as being >unfair. My friend who is the attorney for one of the provinces said >the 16% tax to them is nothing compared to the huge profits they reap. >They protested to try and make the president look bad for the tax, and >it backfired on them. > >This situation with the grasslands was a horror story. You could not >see more than 100 meters in front of you. All major highways were >closed. The subte was closed down. This was a crisis due to the greed and stupidity >of a few people. There have been over 100 arrested and 3 people so far are being charged. > >Hospitals were overflowing with people who were asthmatics that could not breathe. The carbon monoxide was >causing us to be eternally tired and they were very fearful of the levels. My plants on my >17th floor balcony were dying. I was part of the horrendous fire that was in Oakland California in >1991 that was considered one of the worst wildfires in the history of the U.S. It did not even come >close to what was happening here. > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sun Apr 20 20:02:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: <05rj04tfnljee28s4du3an1li9httrpqkp@4ax.com> Message-ID: >>>cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. >>>Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not >>>dancing consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. >> >>"Should be encouraged" how and by whom, exactly?? > > Give orders to the dj being do not start a new tanda until the floor > is clear. I've never heard of such a thing happening. Has anyone?? Sounds like a good way to lose dancers fast. And how it is going to encourage cabaceo and switching partners, I cannot fathom. -- Chris From kushi_bushi at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 20:49:29 2008 From: kushi_bushi at hotmail.com (meaning of life) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:49:29 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: it is always a good idea to enforce silly rules and to be rude and judgemental about the style of dancing and music that others are enjoying. that way you can have the floor all to yourself (for a while). it certainly worked here, where the silly rules and judgement ran all the dancers off, and the local tango group shut down due to "lack of interest". in the mean time, all the "un interested" dancers found a new place to dance with out the rules and judgement, so it all worked out in the end. the tango group "showed them", and the "dancers" got a fun place to dance. i left out the name of the city, because i am sure "your city name here" applies equally well in many places. The Tangonista Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 From nina at earthnet.net Sun Apr 20 21:02:12 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:02:12 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA is not tango related?! In-Reply-To: References: <480B67CE.6010304@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080420184955.01bd2bb8@earthnet.net> Floyd, The smoke in BsAs IS TANGO RELATED! Those of us with a profound connection to Argentina have close friends there. There are also many old dancers that we know, whose health is greatly affected by these conditions. It is not important who is to blame. The fact is that the smoke is there and the people are suffering. None of us can do anything to help the people we care about. I don't know what this smoke will do to our friends there, especially those who are old. The older dancers are dissappearing already. Because I currently do not live in BsAs, every time I go, I learn about the deaths of old dancers whom I knew and was very fond of. After this, who knows what and who we will find?! The smoke is the human aspect of tango. This is the world of those who live in Buenos Aires. People who wrote about it on the list, are not only affected themselves, but also care greatly about what happens. I am happy to hear what they have to say. Without considering the human aspect of tango, any discussion about tango is idiotic. NIna At 01:00 PM 4/20/2008, Floyd Baker wrote: >Right now I consider this *entire* subject with it's various threads >to be off topic., and I'm sorry I entered into it. It is all to do >with smoke, and not about Tango. > >Beyond that., it is very unfortunate for all the victims and terrible >conditions that you say exist. I do understand that., and I feel for >those who are suffering. > > > >Here is my private response to your private email. The one not >addressed to Tango-L Both of which are identical afai can see. > > >Deby.. > >To me it was a 'possiblity'. I have not been there nor know the >farmer's standard of living. So, I believe my statement was put in >the manner of a question...? If anyone knew what their >standard of living was. > >You seem to know. Fine. They're millonairs ;-/ No difference! > >Money still rules, eh? If not the lightning, or the kids, or >'starving' farmers.., then people will still do what it takes to get >things done to suit themselves. > >I would say that a 16 percent increase IS excessive. No matter they >can 'afford' it. Perhaps the government should help to increase >production and export, instead of charging more for what is *already* >being done. > >Grasslands exist all over the country. I'm sure there would be no >problem growing soy somewhere other than upwind of the city.., right? >And it could be mandated..? So what is the 'real' problem. And will >it continue to happen? > >Can anyone give a Tango related solution? > >Abrazos... > >Floyd > > > > > > > > > > >On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:02 -0300, you wrote: > > > > >I am sorry Floyd but you have no clue. You should read a little more > >before you state an opinion that is completely ignorant. The farmers > >here are some of the richest people in the country. They have a > very high standard > >of living. Agribusiness came to Argentina during the crisis. There are > >very few small farms left, just like in the U.S. The difference here is > >that we have stricter controls over the use of hormones, feed, and > >genetic engineering. > > > >My friend from Texas owns 3 ranches here with his Argentine partners. > >He is not the exception. Talk to anyone from Argentina and they will > >tell you that the money is with farming now. The guys that set the > >fires are millionaires. They were clearing the land to plant more soy. > >These were grasslands used to feed cattle. These are the same people who > >last month were protesting the 16% increase on soy export taxes as being > >unfair. My friend who is the attorney for one of the provinces said > >the 16% tax to them is nothing compared to the huge profits they reap. > >They protested to try and make the president look bad for the tax, and > >it backfired on them. > > > >This situation with the grasslands was a horror story. You could not > >see more than 100 meters in front of you. All major highways were > >closed. The subte was closed down. This was a crisis due to the > greed and stupidity > >of a few people. There have been over 100 arrested and 3 people > so far are being charged. > > > >Hospitals were overflowing with people who were asthmatics that > could not breathe. The carbon monoxide was > >causing us to be eternally tired and they were very fearful of the > levels. My plants on my > >17th floor balcony were dying. I was part of the horrendous fire > that was in Oakland California in > >1991 that was considered one of the worst wildfires in the history > of the U.S. It did not even come > >close to what was happening here. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Tango-L mailing list > >Tango-L at mit.edu > >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango > * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From keith at tangohk.com Sun Apr 20 22:04:10 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:04:10 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA is not tango related?! Message-ID: <49590.1208743450@tangohk.com> Nina, I agree with you. I recently completed the purchase of an apartment in Buenos Aires and hope to spend a lot more time in that beautiful city in the future. My 20 year old daughter is already living there and what I read is scary. By off-topic, I think Floyd is referring to his own ignorant and idiotic response to this serious problem. Eg. lightning or children starting the fires or the example of Atlanta where kids like to open the hydrants to black ice the streets because they like to see the cars spin around... And, finally ... clearing dead grass areas IS a good idea after all. So I also agree with Floyd - that is off-topic. Keith, HK On Mon Apr 21 9:02 , Nina Pesochinsky sent: >Floyd, > >The smoke in BsAs IS TANGO RELATED! Those of us with a profound >connection to Argentina have close friends there. From duendedetango at mac.com Sun Apr 20 22:22:30 2008 From: duendedetango at mac.com (duendedetango) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:22:30 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in BA. Predictions for improvement? In-Reply-To: <49590.1208743450@tangohk.com> References: <49590.1208743450@tangohk.com> Message-ID: Is there any scientific information as to when the smoke will dissipate enough to return BA to a reasonably heathy place to live? News coverage there? I have a few friends there as well as all the other humans and living creatures depend upon for their lives. El Duende From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 22:28:34 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <350835.47695.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > > if one is to continue to be a community leader, then > one must be willing to make decisions, take responsibility, and lead. ... you either have the trust of your community or you don't. > > One has to wonder as to the unique factors of third world > tango that give rise to such a bizarre phenomenon. In the first and second tango worlds, I'm sure I've never met or even heard of anyone adopting a title such as "community leader". Actually, Chris, there are quite a number of nonprofits with elected officials (presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, treasurers) who are all community leaders. Their memberships have elected them to handle the affairs of the club. These are the "go to" people. People can, knowingly or not, take cues from these leaders. But there are other community leaders, as well. Teachers and organizers who work independently. There are often issues that these folks, along with elected officials, handle behind the scenes. Some work their magic quietly, some are much more public. But they are leaders, just the same. I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't included in these discussions and, therefore, unaware of what these folks do. > > For managing crises, the textbook case is the Tylenol > scare. > > For further discussion of how a case of the deaths of > pain-killer users through cyanide poisoning of their medicines inspires the practices of tango "community leaders", would someone please start a separate mailing > list? The point of the article, since you seemed to miss it, is to be proactive in dealing with problems. And, well, having a local tango teacher on trial for sexually predatory behavior is an issue. But there are other problems that can arise, as well, such as a loss of the main teacher in a community with no replacement in sight. In a small tango community that can be seen as a crisis. How one handles it can either cause a panic or help create opportunities. And, Chris, if you're not interested in the issues of community leadership, then you're free to use your delete key. I, for one, have learned alot from other community leaders who shared their experiences with me so that I can help my community grow. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From febaker at buffalotango.com Mon Apr 21 04:57:39 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:57:39 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not In-Reply-To: References: <05rj04tfnljee28s4du3an1li9httrpqkp@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:02 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >>>>cabaceo should be encouraged even if everybody knows everybody else. >>>>Clearing the floor during the cortina should be encouraged. Not >>>>dancing consecutive tandas with the same partner should be encouraged. >>> >>>"Should be encouraged" how and by whom, exactly?? >> >> Give orders to the dj being do not start a new tanda until the floor >> is clear. >I've never heard of such a thing happening. Has anyone?? That must be why you asked then... Instructions (on the placemats?) would tell of tradition... Lots of people wouldn't argue with tradition, would they? Like those here who don't buy nuevo and/or other non traditional variations of Tango. Obviously it really wouldn't be necessary to label roped in areas for these people to sit within. I like to embellish too you know? But the notice of a second cortina, etc. is to give the lady an excuse to get off the floor and return to her seat. The first cortina would bring on: 'Ahhh.. I think that means we best return to our seats.' She would return to her seat to be available again... Of course if the lady didn't want that, she/they could certainly just agree to dance again the next time and/or move off the floor together instead of staying on it. Either one wants 'results'..., floor clearing, non hogging, ladies made available for others, males to get a clue, etc., or people should stop talking about it. Just trying to be 'productive' you know? You didn't appear to have a better idea. >Sounds like a good way to lose dancers fast. On the other hand, if there are many venues in a community.., the practice could draw the better followers from each of them, along with the better male leads. It's also likely that a very small Tango community, supplying a limited number of venues, would certainly be able to impliment this without losing a single dancer. Would they limit themselves to going dancing less? And if they weren't serious enough about Tango to stay with the code of Tango, they would never be.., about either.. >And how it is going to encourage cabaceo and switching partners, > I cannot fathom. You may need a bigger air tank... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tl2 at chrisjj.com Mon Apr 21 05:38:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Taxi Fares In-Reply-To: <480B794C.4070407@lavidacondeby.com> Message-ID: > When you return to the airport you can call one of the taxi companies > directly - Del Plata, Premium, or a remis service to come get you. ... >I never understand people who come here with USD or Euros who want to > save 5 - 10 pesos over their safety. If safety is important, there seems s no alternative to walking. As I did for the last mile to Ezeiza last year, leaving my remise on the hard shoulder, immobile and belching black smoke ;) -- Chris From dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com Mon Apr 21 12:28:09 2008 From: dnovitz at lavidacondeby.com (Deby Novitz) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:28:09 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480CC099.7090806@lavidacondeby.com> The worst has past. Yesterday, sunday was a beautiful warm fall day. The amigas and I walked all over Las Ca?itas, had coffee, and a typical sunday. Today the sky is blue and another beautiful day. I am off to the gym. Something the smoke prevented me from doing. My lungs are finally clearing and my throat stopped hurting. Just thought you all might like to know. Deby From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Mon Apr 21 14:33:38 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:33:38 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not Message-ID: <20080421182930.79B53235575@p3fed1.frb.org> Many years ago, rumor had it that a milonga organizer in a major North American city would run out onto the floor and give people tickets for breaches of tango etiquette. People ridiculed her for the behavior. I would have found such behavior funny (both humorous and odd). I don't think it makes much sense for an organizer or a group of community leaders to impose a set of rules on those attending milongas. People go to milongas to have fun dancing tango, not to have a bunch of rules imposed on them, and that includes a forced rotation of partners. Various communities have drafted social etiquette rules which are intended to be informative rather than requirements. For some examples, see http://www.portlandtango.com/faq.html http://www.tangovita.com/page.php?page=14 http://www.tangomuse.com/TangoManners.html http://www.close-embrace.com/invitingetiquette.html http://www.tejastango.com/faq_dallas_tango.html Of course, severe breeches of what is considered acceptable social etiquette may require intervention on an individual basis. I don't think it serves the milonga well for the dj to force everyone off the floor with a second cortina or a lengthy cortina. The cortina should be long enough to allow the floor to clear--not to force it cleared. Dancers know what the cortina means. If they want to stay on the dance floor that is their choice. (If one of them is being coerced to stay on the floor that is another issue.) Some ideas that I've seen work at milongas (that had the right spaces) to promote more positive social interaction (not force rotation). 1) A milonga has a break zone--an area where people could sit or stand and talk without being asked to dance. 2) A milonga has two dance floors--one for practicing and one for dancing the ronda. 3) A milonga has three seating zones: single males, single females, couples. Couples who want to interact as singles may sit with their own gender in the singles area. The cabeceo is used as a matter of social etiquette--not rules. Anyone is always free to reject invitations that have not been properly offered. With best regards, Steve From george at inscenes.com Mon Apr 21 17:35:15 2008 From: george at inscenes.com (George Nicol) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:35:15 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Etiquette Message-ID: Here are some updates to www.inscenes.com/etiquette regarding men teaching on the milonga floor (5), basic step (9), and photography at milongas (14). From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Mon Apr 21 18:26:07 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:26:07 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] A Picture Is Worth ... a Few Words Message-ID: <20080421222207.0B98D2355E1@p3fed1.frb.org> http://www.tejastango.com/egads.html Steve From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 21:13:45 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Duh! Message-ID: <284790.85860.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Pretty boring stuff..Tango L Is this what it's like when the 'experts' drive the newbies out? There's only a couple of posters who are unafraid of criticism and everyone else is a critic. ...real safe. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From patangos at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 21:35:46 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - reply to Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <947239.57133.qm@web55309.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote: > Each dancer needs to be comfortable with their movements. > Different anatomical characteristics, including injury, will make a 'one size fits all' approach inapplicable. Dancers who are made to feel uncomfortable in their bodies will stop dancing tango. I agree, Ron. The trick is to help them develop their kinesthetic sense (the 6th sense) without making them feel uncomfortable. Because the basis of Alexander technique is in relaxing muscles, it's a gentle way of promoting this sixth sense. I have found that when I help people develop the 6th sense, they are more willing to work through the discomfort - sorta' like taking yoga. What is most important, I think, is for people to use their entire bodies as a connected unit. My Alexander teacher has commented to me before how some people (e.g. milongueros in videos) clearly have bad posture but they are able to use their bodies in a connected way, so that the dance works for them. However, I think that isn't true of most people. For example, my AT teacher might be working on my leg and say "That changed your neck. Did you feel that?". For a long time, my usual answer was "umm, no". It's only recently that have I been able to make that connection. > If is also noteworthy that different instructors > recommend different technique, much of which has been a source of debate on this list (e.g., heel first vs. toe first, position of the woman's head in the embrace). Some of these technique differences reflect personal preferences and some reflect stylistic differences. ...Rather than focusing on details, one should focus on the common ground of technique, e.g., > balance and stability, coordination of movements between > partners. For beginning/intermediate dancers, I agree with this. But for more experienced dancers, it is useful to look at why specific techniques are used in relation to anatomical structure or musicality. After workshops, I always explore the differences in how teachers walk with our students so that they can learn to control their bodies better. I often find that there is actually less differences that one thinks. Some of the technique differences have to do with timing and how a teacher explains it. > Remember, tango has been danced for over 100 years by > people in Buenos Aires who have not had extensive training. Most good dancers developed on their own, by many kilometers of walking on the dance floor. That's true but those dancers were able to start in their teens. I'm guessing their bodies were relatively free of the habits of those of us starting a lot later. Generally speaking, a 40-year-old body learns things differently than a 20-year-old body. Sigh. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 21:46:52 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <332684.36732.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I like this dance...it's refreshing! He walks to the cross a bit too much for my taste..(defeat it already) but some of his other repetitive moves are exciting. Of course, she is superb! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--cCWbOWgE --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 21 22:03:11 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] More Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <539260.24537.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is as good as it gets in creative close embrace. Ney Melo is a master of the cadencia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgbt0oD-MnA&feature=related Jennifer is my ideal of the perfect woman's body for the dance. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From nina at earthnet.net Mon Apr 21 22:39:18 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:39:18 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - reply to Ron Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080421203807.01b462e0@earthnet.net> There are a few misconceptions here that I would like to address. 1. If someone is comfortable with his/her own body, there is nothing and no one that can "make" this person to be uncomfortable. What happens instead is that people ignore their discomfort in the regular life activities, move themselves out of the body and into the head, and stay there until they arrive to tango. Tango is just a mirror of what is already there. 2. Walking in Buenos Aire is good for tango, true. But what is much better is to ride the old Mercedes buses. If you can keep your balance without holding on to anything, and do it every day, the tango improves dramatically. :) 3. That 20 year old bodies are better than 40 year old bodies. Not true. 20 year old bodies are ignored and disconnected usually because the person is some place else. If one has been doing something with his or her own body since the age of 20, and has been doing it for 20 years (not tango, but something that involves some consistent and purposeful cultivation of the body), his or her body will be much, much better at 40 than at 20.. The problem is that many people arrive to tango after their bodies had fossilized, and after living in their heads for decades. 4. The longer I dance, the less I understand who is a beginner and who is advanced. I believe that the problem is tango dimentia that sets in after some time of dancing - one sort of forgets the way home and it does not matter.:) 5. Tango alone cannot teach a person to move and to be connected with the body. Other things are needed. There is a reason why people come to tango. More often than not it is subconscious. But each person does know what he/she needs or wants and is able to pursue it, if the conditions are right. To create a space where a person can explore his or her movement in a safe place, is much more important on any level of dancing than the moves or technique. When people begin to dance, something important and big has already began to happen to their psyche. Some call it the emergence of the authentic self. It is a process for everyone. I believe that it is a very painful process. All transformations are painful. I believe that if a tango teacher recognizes that such a transformation is taking place in his or her students, he or she can tend to the space that is needed, and the trust that gets built, and gently help them move. It is amazing to see the incredible speed with which people learn tango in these conditions. The role of the teacher then become that of helping a person to emerge authentic in the dance. See what happens when I sit at my computer long enough?! Best, Nina At 07:35 PM 4/21/2008, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: >--- Tango Society of Central Illinois > wrote: > > > Each dancer needs to be comfortable with their movements. > > Different anatomical characteristics, including injury, >will make a 'one size fits all' approach inapplicable. >Dancers who are made to feel uncomfortable in their bodies >will stop dancing tango. > > > Remember, tango has been danced for over 100 years by > > people in Buenos Aires who have not had extensive >training. Most good dancers developed on their own, by many >kilometers of walking on the dance floor. > >That's true but those dancers were able to start in their >teens. I'm guessing their bodies were relatively free of >the habits of those of us starting a lot later. Generally >speaking, a 40-year-old body learns things differently than >a 20-year-old body. Sigh. > >Trini de Pittsburgh From tempehuck at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 23:08:37 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:08:37 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Duh! In-Reply-To: <284790.85860.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <284790.85860.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Mario wrote: > Pretty boring stuff..Tango L > Is this what it's like when the 'experts' drive the newbies out? > There's only a couple of posters who are unafraid of criticism > and everyone else is a critic. ...real safe. *yawn* I think pretty much everyone has caught on to your little trolling act by now, "Mario," whoever you are, which is why you are eliciting fewer and fewer responses. The only mystery left is exactly which of the list of former Tango-L malcontents' sockpuppet you really are, and I don't think anyone particularly cares at this point. In the meantime, it would be nice if you'd at least quit badmouthing Tango-L--if you don't like our fair mailing list, you may unsubscribe anytime you like. Huck From David.Burnett at cba.com.au Tue Apr 22 00:10:03 2008 From: David.Burnett at cba.com.au (Burnett, David) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:03 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Duh! In-Reply-To: References: <284790.85860.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D63DA026F41FD4A941C01BF5A3BE20D0126717F@aaunsw412.au.cbainet.com> I liked the sockpuppet idea - gave me images of 'Sesame Street does Tango' complete with 'Kermit visits his first brothel' and the whole SS gang hanging out in the streets, dressing sharply and murmuring in Lunfardo db -----Original Message----- From: tango-l-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf Of Huck Kennedy Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 1:09 PM To: tango-l at mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Duh! On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Mario wrote: > Pretty boring stuff..Tango L > Is this what it's like when the 'experts' drive the newbies out? > There's only a couple of posters who are unafraid of criticism and > everyone else is a critic. ...real safe. *yawn* I think pretty much everyone has caught on to your little trolling act by now, "Mario," whoever you are, which is why you are eliciting fewer and fewer responses. The only mystery left is exactly which of the list of former Tango-L malcontents' sockpuppet you really are, and I don't think anyone particularly cares at this point. In the meantime, it would be nice if you'd at least quit badmouthing Tango-L--if you don't like our fair mailing list, you may unsubscribe anytime you like. Huck _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L at mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ************** IMPORTANT MESSAGE ***************************** This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information which may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please advise the sender by return email, do not use or disclose the contents, and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (ABN 48 123 123 124) or its subsidiaries. We can be contacted through our web site: commbank.com.au. If you no longer wish to receive commercial electronic messages from us, please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. ************************************************************** From melroyr at xtra.co.nz Tue Apr 22 05:29:15 2008 From: melroyr at xtra.co.nz (Melroy) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:29:15 +1200 (New Zealand Standard Time) Subject: [Tango-L] Nina - at the computer too long. Message-ID: <480DAFEB.00001D.00452@OEM-COMPUTER> Not poking fun ....... I think your post was great. I take comfort in the possibility of a 40 year old body possibly being more in tune than a 20 year old body, although I'm 50 (but started Tango at around 40!). For average people, not athletes or trained dancers etc, I think there is some credence in this idea. And I love the line about Tango dimentia where - 'one sort of forgets the way home and it does not matter.' ....................could this be the Tango Bliss' I hear about .............. Oh and I've been on those buses, but I was sitting down so I guess that doesn't count. As for the more philosophical side of things: > ' Create a space where a person can explore his or her movement in a safe place, is much more important on any level of dancing than the moves or technique'....... .......... and ......... > 'Some call it the emergence of the authentic self.' I also think these are very valid observations, whether an individual is just 'expressing themselves' in a non-serious and fun way, or is actually taking things pretty seriously and really working at developing/improving etc. or both. And I would like to think a teacher would recognise this (transformation) in a pupil and, more importantly, take the time to encourage/do something about it. Of course we are all at different stages of development in our personal lives as human beings, regardless of age etc. (is this where you are coming from?) Now I've been at the computer too long! Which is why I don't post that often ............ Thanks, Mel. From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 10:02:09 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies. Message-ID: <199114.80875.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was looking at this video today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPGKeUn838 I would like to dance like this guy..relaxed, with the music, plenty of space for the feet. Can you take a look and tell me what you think? ...Isn't his apilado a little to the side and not straight on? Look how easily he/they dance outside on the closed side.. Why is it sooooo easy for them (besides the 1000 miles of dancfloor they've trapesed?) Why is it made soooooo difficult? Is it sooooo difficult? What sort of reply will I get from this troll attempt? Will the super critics drive out everyone else and only a private email come thru? Is Tango L not the place for newbies?..only the experts who already know it all and disagree vehemently with each other ? --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From martin at waxman.net Tue Apr 22 10:45:47 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:45:47 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] The place for newbies In-Reply-To: <199114.80875.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <199114.80875.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080422101904.01ea3710@waxman.net> At 10:02 AM 4/22/2008, Mario wrote: > What sort of reply will I get from this troll attempt? > Will the super critics drive out everyone else and only a private > email come thru? > Is Tango L not the place for newbies?..only the experts who > already know it all > and disagree vehemently with each other ? Mario, Yes, Tango-L is a place for newbies. However, since you seem to have the time, and because I feel it will answer many of your questions (because they've been asked many times before), I suggest you read ALL of the archives from the beginning.(1994). I did. I found: answers to many of my questions, stuff that worked for me, stuff that didn't work, interesting ideas, helpful comments, etc. I also found nonsense -- still worth reading. We sometimes disagree with each other because it is our personal Tango -- we dance in the style and way we want to. We don't know it all -- Argentine Tango is a lifetime of learning. I'm 78 years old and know I'll never know it all -- I still take lessons, listen to opinions, and try to improve on what works for me in the ronda I'm in and floor I'm on -- crowded, uncrowded, good dancers, not so good dancers, etc.. In the weekly practica I run, we exchange ideas, explore movement, help and learn from each other, and still dance our own individual AT. FYI, the archives are at: http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/index.html Marty From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 10:36:09 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Kinisthetic sense - by Nina Message-ID: <259788.69997.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 5. Tango alone cannot teach a person to move and to be connected with the body. Other things are needed. There is a reason why people come to tango. More often than not it is subconscious. But each person does know what he/she needs or wants and is able to pursue it, if the conditions are right. To create a space where a person can explore his or her movement in a safe place, is much more important on any level of dancing than the moves or technique. When people begin to dance, something important and big has already began to happen to their psyche. Some call it the emergence of the authentic self. It is a process for everyone. I believe that it is a very painful process. All transformations are painful. I believe that if a tango teacher recognizes that such a transformation is taking place in his or her students, he or she can tend to the space that is needed, and the trust that gets built, and gently help them move. It is amazing to see the incredible speed with which people learn tango in these conditions. The role of the teacher then become that of helping a person to emerge authentic in the dance. See what happens when I sit at my computer long enough?! The above few paragraphs present a whole universe of wealth, worth exploring. And on the following two lines, could be hung a whole philosophy of dance acquisition. " To create a space where a person can explore his or her movement in a safe place, is much more important on any level of dancing than the moves or technique" --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 22 10:59:48 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:59:48 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <20080422145539.BAEB72359E2@p3fed1.frb.org> It would be interesting to know whether the gender imbalance in a given tango community reflects the gender imbalance in its city's population. Here's a link to a map showing the gender imbalance of U.S. metropolitan areas. http://creativeclass.typepad.com/thecreativityexchange/2008/03/the-singles-map.html It's from Richard Florida's book, Who's Your City? Tango draws a very small subset of the population, and teaching methods filter the population. So the gender imbalance in tango may or may not mirror that in the population. With best regards, Steve From niborsamoht at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 12:38:38 2008 From: niborsamoht at yahoo.com (robin thomas) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] tango shoes Message-ID: <113497.95033.qm@web31103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> dear list recently i bought a pair of white leather shoes in a thrift store. they cost $40! the sole is leather, they are made in the u.s. and they have one word written inside, giovanni. does anyone know of this brand? they are my favorite tango shoes, i want to buy more but can't find the company on the internet. does anyone have a contact for them? i tried zappos and amazon already. www.robinthomastango.com www.myspace.com/robinthomastango ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mnussbau at law.nyc.gov Tue Apr 22 13:30:16 2008 From: mnussbau at law.nyc.gov (Nussbaum, Martin) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:30:16 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, it gets better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mario, since you liked the Poema piece, may I offer my favoite version for your viewing pleasure? Musicality doesnt get any better than this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGZv6rSRvTo From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 13:39:38 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, it gets better Message-ID: <995233.29461.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Martin, Yes, I can easily see how this video can be someone's all time favorite..it's got it. I hope that you're on your lunch break. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 13:48:47 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Old dancer's never die Message-ID: <842895.36922.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OMG - Ludmila! This is one reason why old guys keep truck'en. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjNYna7GzUU ok ..this is my last post today..got to get ready for the Milonga tonight..how?..4 hours of youtube watching... check out my playlists ; http://www.youtube.com/user/nacotete --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 22 14:28:09 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:28:09 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes Message-ID: <20080422182403.D3BD2235A1E@p3fed1.frb.org> Previously I wrote: "I don't think it makes much sense for an organizer or a group of community leaders to impose a set of rules on those attending milongas. People go to milongas to have fun dancing tango, not to have a bunch of rules imposed on them,..." I recognize that in Buenos Aires, the organizers don't make the codes of behavior for milongas. The codigos were established a long time ago, those codigos help create a smooth running milonga where everyone can enjoy dancing. The failure to observe these codes typically comes from ignorance or a lack of caring. As someone who participates in the organization of milongas and deejays on a regular basis, I understand the desire to help people understand the codes and ensure that milongas are run as smoothly as possible. Those teaching tango have an obligation to teach the codes as way to help their students participate successfully in milongas. Community FAQs and etiquette lists also may be helpful. What I don't think will work very well is a milonga organizer distributing *and* enforcing a formal set of rules. With best regards, Steve From stermitz at tango.org Tue Apr 22 14:46:33 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:46:33 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes In-Reply-To: <20080422182403.D3BD2235A1E@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080422182403.D3BD2235A1E@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <4B0B8E3A-87E6-45CC-B73D-54A814F3AE39@tango.org> You can set up the milonga to discourage good behavior, or to enable a better chance of success: (1) Enough tables and chairs for everyone to have a seat (2) Tables around the dance floor, with aisles BEHIND the seating (3) Rectangular dance floor, small enough to focus the energy. (4) Good sight-lines between the tables. (5) Aisles to the floor so you don't have traffic jams. (6) DJs that know how to build excitement and social interaction The whole point is to create a good flow and navigation on the dance floor, keep walkers OFF the floor, and make it easy to reclaim your seat in between tandas. Good navigation and floorcraft require a certain density of dancers. If you have too much space, the leaders don't get used to dealing with traffic. More than two or three steps of clearance between the couples, and navigation gets very random. A practice would be set up differently. For example, you may need large open expanses of floor so people can try their moves without endangering the navigation and social feel. On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org wrote: > Those teaching tango have an obligation to teach the codes as way to > help > their students participate successfully in milongas. Community FAQs > and > etiquette lists also may be helpful. What I don't think will work > very > well is a milonga organizer distributing *and* enforcing a formal > set of > rules. > > With best regards, > Steve From martin at waxman.net Tue Apr 22 15:22:25 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:22:25 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] tango shoes In-Reply-To: <113497.95033.qm@web31103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <113497.95033.qm@web31103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080422151111.01f1a658@waxman.net> At 12:38 PM 4/22/2008, robin thomas wrote: >dear list >recently i bought a pair of white leather shoes in a >thrift store. they cost $40! the sole is leather, they >are made in the u.s. and they have one word written >inside, giovanni. does anyone know of this brand? they >are my favorite tango shoes, i want to buy more but >can't find the company on the internet. > >does anyone have a contact for them? i tried zappos >and amazon already. Using Copernic, I found almost 300 results for Giovanni shoes. Any other clues on the box or inside the shoe, or on the sole? http://www.shopzilla.com/8B--Men_s_Shoes_-_cat_id--10150000__keyword--giovanni%20shoes__lp--10__sfsk--3 http://www.shopping.com/xGS-Giovanni_Shoes~NS-1~linkin_id-8010018 http://www.shoebuy.com/giovanni-marquez-shoes.htm http://sports-and-outdoors.become.com/shop?refdisa=ytf&q=giovanni+shoes&utm_campaign=become&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=ssp&utm_term=giovanni+shoes&qet http://shopping.yahoo.com/s:Shoes:4168-Brand=Giovanni;_ylc=X3oDMTEwMzRwMnAxBF9TAzk2NjMyOTA3BHNlYwNmZWVkBHNsawNzc2VhcmNo http://www.smarter.com/mens-dress-shoes/giovanni/pl--ch-30--ca-318--mf-11433.html Marty From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 22 16:10:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, it gets better In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Those teaching tango have an obligation to teach the codes as way to > help their students participate successfully in milongas. Actually those teaching tango have first an obligation simply not to sabotage the natural tendencies of intersocial behaviour from which the codes arise. A bit more consideration of that can save loads of time spent issuing milonga etiquette directives... with the added advantage of actually working. "If it ain't broke, don't break it." -- Chris PS > Musicality doesnt get any better than this. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGZv6rSRvTo Very nice indeed... right up until the volcada commercial ;) From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 22 17:39:37 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:39:37 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes Message-ID: <20080422213528.085BC2356A0@p3fed1.frb.org> Chris, UK wrote: >Actually those teaching tango have first an obligation simply not to >sabotage the natural tendencies of intersocial behaviour from which the >codes arise. A bit more consideration of that can save loads of time spent >issuing milonga etiquette directives... with the added advantage of >actually working. I agree. Bad teaching can contribute to poor floorcraft and an inability to observe the codes. Tom Stermitz once commented that many people have walked into the first tango lesson completely able to navigate through crowded dance floor. After their first lesson they couldn't. Let's try to get to a few details that might facilitate a natural understanding of the codes: Beginners should be taught the line of dance. Beginners should be taught that tango has pauses. Beginners shouldn't be taught rote figures. How will beginners learn about tandas and cortinas? about the cabeceo? What if you organize a milonga and a number of people who show up dance performance-style tango, not social tango, and virtually none of these people observe the ronda or other aspects of the codes? By the way, I should mention that a milonga that I deejay for regularly is quite devoid of problems that might arise from people failing to observe the codes. Most of the dancers are experienced, and the facility has many of the physical characteristics that Tom Stermitz described as facilitating success. Sometimes early the evening, the density is a bit low, which encourages just a bit of random navigation. With best regards, Steve From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:18:42 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, it gets better Message-ID: <885599.65918.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Half way thru my marathon YouTube prepping for the Milonga tonite.. I found this very faithfull video of a BsAs class on Cayengue... I'm just a newbie but I'm glad I didn't spend time and money in this class. I'm not knocking the teachers..they are working their butts off..but gee whiz is this what it's all about? No wonder I don't take classes in spite of all the finger waving and put downs. (my last troll of the day but there's always tonite) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_40df_KCVak&feature=related --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 18:31:21 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] What are soft knees? Message-ID: <75054.62031.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I like this couple's dance and I'm told that he has 'soft knees'. I'd love to bring my own soft knees to the Milonga tonite...any suggestions??? thks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPGKeUn838 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 22 21:07:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: <350835.47695.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Actually, Chris, there are quite a number of nonprofits with elected > officials (presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, treasurers) who > are all community leaders. Their memberships have elected them to > handle the affairs of the club. Um, that's not a community - it what comes from /lack/ of community. Real tango communities don't have so-called community leaders, and it follows that so-called community leaders don't have real tango communities... ...hence their need to form clubs, hold elections and bestow important-sounding titles upon one another. You can tell a real tango dance community by the fact people would rather dance. ;) -- Chris From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 22 21:13:46 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Mario, it gets better Message-ID: <470312.11689.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I lucked out! A woman visiting here from the Midwest, wrote me that Hsueh-tze Lee stayed at her house while teaching in her town and that she would demonstrate her embrace to me tonight at the Milonga.. ..I can't wait! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPGKeUn838 See... it pays to troll, one never knows. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From dchester at charter.net Tue Apr 22 23:13:55 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:13:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Duh! Message-ID: <20080422231355.VLTQ1.23874.root@fepweb03> Mario, The "experts" only drive people away who allow themselves to be driven away. They didn't drive me away. You have to be thick skinned to post on interent forums. For whatever reason, some people will make rude posts on a forum that they would never make face to face. Just don't let it get to you, (and even more important), don't become one of them. Just make your posts like you have in the past and don't let a few snide remarks change who you are. Regards, David PS: I read all your posts and click on your links. I just don't always have a comment worth posting. ---------------------------------- > From: Mario > Subject: [Tango-L] Duh! > To: tango-l at mit.edu > > Pretty boring stuff..Tango L > Is this what it's like when the 'experts' drive the newbies out? > There's only a couple of posters who are unafraid of criticism > and everyone else is a critic. ...real safe. From dchester at charter.net Tue Apr 22 23:42:30 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:42:30 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <20080422234230.H9ZT3.24542.root@fepweb03> Mario, I didn't really have a problem with how much he lead the cross. My issue (although they danced well), was that I didn't think what he led, went well with that song. I thought the dance was too busy, and needed more pauses (but that's just my interpretation/opinion). I really liked how she did some of the pivots, though. I'm curious what others think. Regards, David ---------------------------------- > From: Mario > Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes > To: tango-l at mit.edu > > I like this dance...it's refreshing! > He walks to the cross a bit too much for my taste..(defeat it already) > but some of his other repetitive moves are exciting. > Of course, she is superb! > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--cCWbOWgE From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 23 05:25:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes In-Reply-To: <20080422213528.085BC2356A0@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: > Beginners should be taught the line of dance. How about: Beginners should learn the line of dance. > Beginners should be taught that tango has pauses. Beginners should learn that tango has pauses. The essential objective of education is not teaching, but learning. > How will beginners learn about tandas and cortinas? Listen. > about the cabeceo? Look. The essential /process/ of education is not teaching, but learning. -- Chris PS Mario asked: > I'm just a newbie but I'm glad I didn't spend time and money in this > class. I'm not knocking the teachers..they are working their butts > off..but gee whiz is this what it's all about? It's what in Europe is called Line Dancing... A.k.a. Crackpot Tango Teaching Method #4. Thankfully it's dying out. From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 23 01:41:43 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:41:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <50156.1208929303@tangohk.com> Mario, I agree. This guy has an excellent style and is certainly someone you can learn a lot from. Regular walking to the cross is not a problem provided you're in crossed feet and can simply walk through the cross without breaking your stride. Just remember that the lady has to make 2 steps, LF cross and RF back, to your one step, LF forward. A firm chest-lead is required so that she will make these as double-time steps, which many people count as QQ. Btw, referring to another post you made, this guy also has 'soft knees'. It just means the opposite of 'stiff legs'. Although we should step forward, side or back with a straight leg, when we transfer weight, the knee should flex slightly - this is a soft knee. Well, that's what I think, others might have a different opinion. Keith, HK On Tue Apr 22 9:46 , Mario sent: >I like this dance...it's refreshing! > He walks to the cross a bit too much for my taste..(defeat it already) > but some of his other repetitive moves are exciting. > Of course, she is superb! > http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=9--cCWbOWgE From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 09:30:09 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <425775.33931.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Keith and David and those who wrote off list. . I danced last nite with a woman who studied with Hsueh-tze Lee and showed me her embrace that she was using in that video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPGKeUn838 I couldn't feel any advantage to it at all..so, back to the drawing board. ..I sure like the way they dance though..it gives me a lot of hope for the slow tango ..he only did a couple of crosses and the rest were all forms of walking..not even an ocho in there and it looked (and must have felt) devine!...my Vals came on good last nite..im happy with my Milonga and Vals...now, I just have to get that damn, slow stuff...I now know for certain that it's all posture and balance..that's what it seems like to me...in all the three dances..posture and balance is everything..rhythm of course, too..after all, it is a dance (I think) and so, the music will always rule. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 10:04:12 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes Message-ID: <497626.78039.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ..oh yes, I forgot to mention the cut ochos and giros http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPGKeUn838 ..and heck, I could probalbly find some othe 'move' if I looked harder but gee, isn't it heartening that someone could dance sooo simply and yet so fine! ..and I got this message off list from B.; "btw, unlike any other couple on the dancer floor, they only danced the tanda before that demo.... they hadn't seen each other in 1,5 years." ...wow, that's dancing. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 23 10:30:04 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:30:04 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango In-Reply-To: <20080422145539.BAEB72359E2@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080422145539.BAEB72359E2@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <2A485407F9D444C3AD1AC78EBDE7E9C5@homePC> Steve, the gender balance in Tokyo is about 50:50, or rather samll shortness of women, while in tango there are about 3 women for every man. The two have nothing to do with each other. > It would be interesting to know whether the gender imbalance in a given > tango community reflects the gender imbalance in its city's population. > From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Wed Apr 23 14:10:22 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:10:22 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <20080423180614.47A71235F90@p3fed1.frb.org> Astrid wrote: >the gender balance in Tokyo is about 50:50, or rather samll shortness of >women, while in tango there are about 3 women for every man. The two have >nothing to do with each other. I would think that at least three factors could affect the gender balance for tango in a city. 1) The cultural attitudes toward women and men participating in such activities; 2) How the teachers filter the population to create the tango community; 3) The gender balance for *single* men and women in the city. I'll expand on the third point a little: In most U.S. cities, the vast majority of tango dancers are single. Estimate I've seen place the number of single people dancing tango in most U.S. cities around 75-80%. If most adults in a city are married, the gender balance for single adults may be quite a bit different than for the population as a whole. If the pool from which tango dancers are drawn is not gender balanced, it would seem as though the lack of gender balance should affect participation to at least some degree. Arguing otherwise would require claiming that the cultural attitudes and/or filtering are so strong that they completely dominate any potential gender imbalance. With best regards, Steve From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Wed Apr 23 19:22:36 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:22:36 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango In-Reply-To: <20080423180614.47A71235F90@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080423180614.47A71235F90@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <67257634F60B47E1ADC7DCF8608AE1B3@homePC> > If the pool from which tango dancers are drawn is not gender balanced, it > would seem as though the lack of gender balance should affect > participation to at least some degree. Arguing otherwise would require > claiming that the cultural attitudes and/or filtering are so strong that > they completely dominate any potential gender imbalance. In Japan, it is considered embarrassing for men to dance. In fact, social dancing has been traditionally viewed as sleazy, and the attitude has only improved recently a little. Some of the tango dancers here are married, esp. the older men, but practically nobody comes to tango with their wife or husband. (going out together and meet other people is not one of their customs here, traditionally) > From febaker at buffalotango.com Wed Apr 23 22:30:22 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:30:22 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. Message-ID: Our 'Ladies Only' lesson last Friday went very well. Six followers came and one brought a partner. Experience ranged from zero to two having a lot of tango wear on their soles already. But experience didn't matter. They were all happy they came. Even the 'partner' who drove a hundred miles to be here was enthused.. The woman of that couple saying she now regretted every 'Tango' lesson she had previously taken. What more can I ask, eh? :-) But to attract more people in the future I will be teaching similarly done classes to 'couples'. Probably even better that way than each having separate lessons... But we'll be teaching each their jobs only, and not the other's. Couples together only for the common points of the dance. Posture, balance, axis, attitude, etc. Along with *how* the leads are passed and followed. But *never* to show or teach patterns to followers... That should always be considered Tango sacrilege. The followers were told they are both the artist and their own work of art. That they are to consider themselves as dancing totally alone, under their own power, direction, balance, and the rest. That if a leader applied any pressure to their body to move them in any direction, they should object. They were told leader is there to 'hopefully' give the followers *new* combinations of steps to dance through as they are led around the floor to the music. Music that the leader needs to follow in order to do that. The leader also keeps the follower from running into furniture and other dancers while she dances her trance across the floor.., 'by herself'.., with her eyes closed.. I'm starting to think that it is the *leader* who is the object in Tango, eh? The label just makes us feel good so we'll dance with the ladies for their sakes... Ha! They learned that closing the eyes instantly increases the brain's Alpha waves so the follower relaxes and becomes more intuitive. That one can actually feel the effect on their body when the eyes are closed for a few seconds... They learned how to increase their poise.., which includes axis, 'attitude', how to pivot, smoothness, walking in two lines close-set, no head sway nor bob, feet always coming down close to and pointed towards the leader, ignoring the leader's weight changes, and many other ways they need to be aware of, if they are to Tango correctly. They were taught that leads are not just given one at a time. That they will come to see two and three being given at once. And so they'll get used to incorporating all leads into their head as one continuous, varying force that guides them about. They will feel and use inertia, centrifugal force, gravity, timing and more to carry out the dance. That understanding these natural laws too, will allow the follower to stay with any leader, combined leads, style, or force behind them.., as a continuous flow of sensory input they must learn to re-act to. All of it is aimed toward having followers do *steps* only. Smoothly, gracefully, and entirely.. That if they get to this point they will not need to be specifically taught how to step backward, the barrida, displacements, nor many other moves now taught to them as half of a couple, and memorizing them.. It was pointed out how important the music is.. Something both partners need to pay the utmost attention to. Especially the tempo changes and the syncopation they may be dancing to. Where the 'listening' to it litterally causes their dance to be part of the music itself. And the other way round, too... The music puts them in touch with the leader's choice of tempo and movement. It tells them which note they should touch their moving foot down on. They are not to just *do* a step to get it over with. It must be done *to the music*... Flowing their motions with emotion and comes from what they hear.. To syncronize both sets of feet. To remain 'in tune' with each other throughout the dance. Besides being very beautiful to hear and dance to, in itself. One of the ladies said she felt like she was actually dancing Tango with me.., instead of 'learning' it. I liked that... :-) Size limits how much I can say.. It's been edited down and changed around.. It's still not quite as I'd like it to be..., but the lesson was.., and that's what counts. So if anyone is interested in learning more, our online 'how to' pages explain what I believe should be the way to teach. It's different from most..., I know. :-/ http://www.buffalotango.com/html/l_-_introduction.html Take care... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Wed Apr 23 22:57:01 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. References: Message-ID: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Floyd: I don't know what you mean "leads are not just given one at a time. That they will come to see two and three being given at once." I only give one at a time. The woman has to finish a step before she can do the next step. I can't give her three steps at once. I must be misinterpreting what you wrote. Michael Still thinking fondly of the Atlanta tango festival I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- From: "Floyd Baker" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. They were taught that leads are not just given one at a time. That they will come to see two and three being given at once. Take care... Floyd From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Apr 24 05:17:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Smoke in your eyes In-Reply-To: <50156.1208929303@tangohk.com> Message-ID: A teacher wrote to Mario: > Just remember that the lady has to make 2 steps, LF cross and RF back, > to your one step, LF forward. No Mario, just /forget/ that. It is a misunderstanding. The lady does not have to make RF back, and you do not have to make LF forward. There are countless other possibilities. For example, she can uncross forwards or step sideways, and you can step or not. > A firm chest-lead is required so that she will make these as > double-time steps, which many people count as QQ There's no requirement that she makes these as double-time steps. She and you can do them as fast or slow as feels right. Real tango doesn't work in preset sequences with fixed timings and counts. That stuff is nonsense invented by people who have misunderstood what tango dancing is and ended up teaching a pointless pattern-based imitation. The real dance is improvised. At each moment you're free to take the move that comes from your feeling of the embrace, the music and the others on the floor. Nothing less is worth doing. -- Chris From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Thu Apr 24 09:44:53 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:44:53 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <20080424134044.BAD0D23530A@p3fed1.frb.org> I accept Astrid's and Bibi's views that culture has a powerful affect on the ratio of women to men dancing tango in Tokyo. I find myseslf wondering, however, whether the cultural determination of ratio of women to men dancing tango in Tokyo is so strong that if the number of single men in Tokyo were to double while the number of single women was held constant, would tango venues in Tokyo still see the current ratio of approximately 3 women to 1 man. Might the ratio not change toward 3:2? Given that are sufficient similarities in overall culture between Denver and Chicago, I think that any differences in the gender balance between single men and women in the two cities could affect the gender balances of tango in the two cities. Chicago has more single women than men. Denver has more single men than women. With best regards, Steve From febaker at buffalotango.com Thu Apr 24 10:53:15 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:53:15 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> Sorry for the time delay. It's difficult for me to put things into words the right way, the first, second, or even the third time I try. :-) But you *can* give more than one lead at a time, within a single step, or followers weight change. The leader's entire body is in fact the lead.., including every movement it makes. The follower needs to be in tune with all of it... I know most everyone goes the single lead way.., I have been teaching that way myself. So with that in mind of course..., no one is to be faulted.. ;-) But now I'm seeing that perhaps single leads, given and looked for each and every step, are a pretty basic way of teaching and explaining how to Tango. Perhaps a way for non Argentine people to learn? Perhaps the only way most anyone who was not brought up in an A/Tango household *can* learn?? But I'm sure, it is a 'simplificaton' of Tango. Examples of *multiple* leads are everywhere... But they're camoflaged as special things the follower must know and remember 'when the time comes'. Like when they sense the leaders stance and his foot near theirs, they go into the *barrida* mode Take a simple step backward by the leader while 'dropping' a bit, which causes the follower to drop too, with her knee then extended so the leader can hook behind it with his trailing leg. That was two leads together., and if both were followed at once, the move would work for the leader without the follower knowing what was coming. In fact I would go so far as to say *any* move can be done without the follower knowing anything of what's coming..., IF she truly follows ALL the leads she feels from the leader's body at any one time. Another multiple lead would be to start the follower back on her right foot but then to cross your left foot behind you so it ends up to the right of your right foot. This would give the follower a lead to the back and to her left too, thereby throwing her off balance. Her right foot ending up to the left of her left foot. Along with the music, one can also increase or decrease the tempo of the dance by the speed of the leads. Speed or squeezing the air between partners are leads too, right? They being done while also leading the particular step itself.. The four main leads that I've always considered basic are for the follower to stay centered, keep the distance constant, keep the shoulders parallel and respond to right palm pressure, at least via the hips if not the entire body, depending on the shoulders, when pressure is applied or released. I only consider followers taking single steps only. I never consider multiple steps, which I call 'moves'. Within any single 'one of three' steps taken, there may be two or three 'leads' applied to that step. There may be more. Some coming sequentially within the step and some paired with another one or two. There can be sub (foot) leads thrown in too. Not to mention stops, reversals, obsticals to the step, etc. I was trying to say that the follower must keep her senses open for many leads at once. Coming all the time within each step she takes.. To be ready and able to perform the various steps and the modifications she feels.., as opposed to the vanilla one of three step leads, coming one at a time. The followers need to become totally 'sensuous' with the leader... I hope it makes sense... It does to me... Floyd On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:57:01 -0400, you wrote: >>Floyd: >>I don't know what you mean "leads are not just given one at a time. That they will come to see two and three being given at once." >> >>I only give one at a time. The woman has to finish a step before she can do the next step. I can't give her three steps at once. >>I must be misinterpreting what you wrote. >> >>Michael >From: "Floyd Baker" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:30 PM >Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. > >They were taught that leads are not just given one at a time. That >they will come to see two and three being given at once. >Take care... > >Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 11:02:33 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] An innovative Milonga Message-ID: <358841.28747.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Milonga is my favorite song - dance. I watch videos of them as often as possible. Since, I also dance it well (haven't yet, seen anyone dance a better Milonga in person) I'm claiming non-newbie status and pointing to this couple's dance as special ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wcKFnUI-YU&feature=related --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From stermitz at tango.org Thu Apr 24 11:03:05 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:03:05 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango In-Reply-To: <20080424134044.BAD0D23530A@p3fed1.frb.org> References: <20080424134044.BAD0D23530A@p3fed1.frb.org> Message-ID: <166F7952-4A7A-41FC-A9F6-55E8ACB1A5AF@tango.org> In the beginner classes, the gender ratios are always close to 50/50. The problem is in the upper level classes. I don't want to be harsh, but look at the Adv-beginner and Intermediate classes for the different teachers in one community. Some are 50/50 some are 80/20. In other words, the problem is methodological and intentional (or ignorant). Retention rates in tango are low, so the filtering process is determines the gender ratios. Out of a new beginner class, maybe 90% quit. If the rejection rate is unbalanced, say 90% women and 95% men, the teacher is creating double the number of women. In other words, the filtering is so drastic that very small changes in the filtering process has a huge effect down the road. It therefore pays off critically if you can figure out how to change that situation, which specifically means increasing the number of men who succeed. If there are extra guys, the number of women will increase to fill the slots. Women have multiple ways to become excited about tango, and in N. America women are more likely to have danced as children. A beginner woman can get a pretty amazing dance from an advanced leader, so she is more likely to see the rewards of sticking it out. It is difficult to create the equivalent for the man. Performance anxiety, in terms of social success and in getting her to do the dance steps, is probably the biggest obstacle for the men. After teaching for 12 years, I've arranged and rearranged the experience for beginner guys to ensure that they walk out of each class, and each class series feeling successful. Retention of the guys happens if the teacher can create the following learning experience: At the end of a one hour class, most of the guys can walk their partner through a dance at a regular milonga. They are still beginners, but they can manage (feel they are in control of) their simple vocabulary, they aren't running into people or stopping in confusion, and they feel like they are "almost" dancing. Notice it is about whether they FEEL successful. There are several specific things that help this: - Simplify; tango takes time - I use simple steps repeated until the men feel their movements are easy - I attach the simple steps to the musical phrase so that they "feel" right - Improvisation is built by swapping short sequences; it is harder to split up longer sequences. - I don't teach fancy figures, as that leads men to frustration. - I don't teach long sequences, as that turns tango into an intellectual experience, and avoids the intuitive, physical learning. From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 11:19:28 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <167739.86905.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The above makes SUPER good sense to me! ..I remember when first seeing and becoming 'hooked' on AT, the only thing that I prayed for, was to be able to navigate a revolution of the dance floor..much as Tom describes it. If he can produce this sooooo quickly (I'm still screwed up in the slow tango) then yes, he has THE way that AT should be taught, here....[ in my not so humble opinion.]..and it follows;..why aren't more teachers doing this?? ..answer: it's not easy to be an insitefull, intelligent master teacher and Tom obviously is one of the rare ones. My wish? That Tom would spend some time training teachers. Is there some way to get the message out, outside of traveling to take his class?? Put it into words that anyone/everyone can understand..do videos that accomplish that.. or heck, buy a plane ticket...but let's get this know-how into the AT teaching community!!! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Thu Apr 24 11:34:02 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:34:02 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <9964CDA4B5A14A10BFCE0DE3A3F01C1F@homePC> Steve wrote: I find myseslf wondering, however, whether the cultural determination of > ratio of women to men dancing tango in Tokyo is so strong that if the > number of single men in Tokyo were to double while the number of single > women was held constant, would tango venues in Tokyo still see the current > ratio of approximately 3 women to 1 man. Might the ratio not change > toward 3:2? > Given that are sufficient similarities in overall culture between Denver > and Chicago, I think that any differences in the gender balance between > single men and women in the two cities could affect the gender balances of > tango in the two cities. Chicago has more single women than men. Denver > has more single men than women. > I think, the tango gender imbalance has very little to do with the rate of single men or women in Tokyo. People here do not go to tango to get their hands on a partner. They go because they want to dance, maybe have a glass of wine or two and then they go home to their wife or husband. Or they go to show off their fancy dresses, look good while dancing, get some exercise...One of the main attractions is the student's show. There is quite a number of people, esp. women that harly even go to milongas, they mainly spend their time attending classes and private lessons, in order to be able to show off at the students' show, mostly by dancing with the teacher they took the privadas from. I would say, the main attraction for many of the women here are not the (single or whatever) Japanese men but rather, the chance to dance with one or several of the Argentine teachers, teaching assistents and milonga hosts. The singles who are mainly after finding a partner do not go to tango, they dance Salsa. From keith at totango.net Thu Apr 24 11:39:14 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report Message-ID: <60175.65.93.52.5.1209051554.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> All those intrigued with Floyd's curious teachings about how to dance tango can see his demonstration of exactly what he means by viewing the video he has on his website. You will see it is quite possible to have your feet, your knees, your hips, your chest, your arms, your shoulders and your head all pointing in different directions at the same time; so it must be possible to give your partner 3 or 4 leads at the same time in that context. Floyd works hard at it, anyway. I wish all the people who give us the benefit of their knowledge would follow his lead and put videos of themselves up so we could be so better informed by telling demonstration. From stermitz at tango.org Thu Apr 24 11:40:49 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:40:49 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango In-Reply-To: <167739.86905.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <167739.86905.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1869776E-E0EA-4B90-9A3B-D7C4AF10DCB9@tango.org> Thanks for the flattery, but as they say, "there's more than one way to do it". You can't provide a formula that exactly works for everyone. My suggestions are useful for teachers to try things, fail and try again, and think through their methods. I mean, it's easy for me to say "Make the guys feel successful", but in practice each teacher has to make it work with their own personality, and their own culture. I think the biggest problem is that teachers present material at the level they understand it, not in the layers that make it easy for beginners to achieve success. I've worked with some teachers. The group in Ann Arbor asked me to help build a curriculum. They have taken my ideas, made them their own, and gone much further than me. On Apr 24, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Mario wrote: > The above makes SUPER good sense to me! ..I remember when first > seeing > and becoming 'hooked' on AT, the only thing that I prayed for, was > to be able > to navigate a revolution of the dance floor..much as Tom describes > it. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Thu Apr 24 12:32:57 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:57 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango Message-ID: <20080424162850.A0BA1235DE2@p3fed1.frb.org> Tom Stermitz wrote: >Retention of the guys happens if the teacher can create the following >learning experience: At the end of a one hour class, most of the guys >can walk their partner through a dance at a regular milonga. They are >still beginners, but they can manage (feel they are in control of) >their simple vocabulary, they aren't running into people or stopping >in confusion, and they feel like they are "almost" dancing. Notice it >is about whether they FEEL successful. >There are several specific things that help this: > - Simplify; tango takes time > - I use simple steps repeated until the men feel their movements are > easy > - I attach the simple steps to the musical phrase so that they > "feel" right > - Improvisation is built by swapping short sequences; it is harder > to split up longer sequences. > - I don't teach fancy figures, as that leads men to frustration. > - I don't teach long sequences, as that turns tango into an > intellectual experience, and avoids the intuitive, physical learning. I think there are some communities where the students end up sorting out among the teachers--with one group of teachers teaching the basics Tom describes and another group to teaching fancy figures and long sequences. Some of the sorting is by gender as Brick Robbins observed in San Diego. http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg08750.html One interesting question is to what extent a tango community only has one shot any given newbie. If someone first goes to a teacher who doesn't suit his/her learning needs are they inclined to drop out or move onto another instructor? With best regards, Steve From flame at 2xtreme.net Thu Apr 24 13:15:10 2008 From: flame at 2xtreme.net (flame@2xtreme.net) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:15:10 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Mario - An innovative Milonga Message-ID: <48105DAE.17464.1ED7A1@flame.2xtreme.net> Spectacular yes, but a performance. Can you imagine dancing like this in your neighborhood milonga? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wcKFnUI-YU&feature=related Check out my video of El Pibe and Elina Roldan to see if you also like an older style of milonga with smaller steps and a charming relaxed feeling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS5Bw2fKoYA Flame AKA TaiChiDancer From sopelote at yahoo.com Thu Apr 24 13:25:45 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Mario - An innovative Milonga Message-ID: <798418.9731.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you TaiChiDancer, Lot's to learn from that video!! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From Marcia.Rock at nyu.edu Thu Apr 24 13:42:54 2008 From: Marcia.Rock at nyu.edu (Marcia Rock) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:42:54 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in China Message-ID: I'm going to Beijing and Shanghai. Has anyone danced in those cities? Thanks, Marcia Rock -- Marcia Rock Director of News and Documentary NYU Journalism 20 Cooper Square NY. NY 10003 212 998 7985 From tango.society at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 14:08:42 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:08:42 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] An innovative Milonga In-Reply-To: <358841.28747.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <358841.28747.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Mario wrote: > The Milonga is my favorite song - dance. I watch videos of them as often as possible. > Since, I also dance it well (haven't yet, seen anyone dance a better Milonga in person) > I'm claiming non-newbie status and pointing to this couple's dance as special ! > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wcKFnUI-YU&feature=related It looks like 'milonga loca' to me. They're killing the dance. Dance like that in a milonga in Buenos Aires and you will be barred from that place for life. That's all we need is for more people to use this a role model for their own dancing. As if navigation at milongas in the US isn't chaotic enough. For an excellent display of dancing milonga see the following. (Mario, I'm sure you've seen this.) The connection and musicality are impeccable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2sgtHaS-0s Whoever doesn't see the beauty of their dance, give up tango tomorrow. You're wasting your time and money with the teachers you have been studying with. Ron From tempehuck at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 14:37:25 2008 From: tempehuck at gmail.com (Huck Kennedy) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:37:25 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] An innovative Milonga In-Reply-To: References: <358841.28747.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote: > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Mario wrote: > > > The Milonga is my favorite song - dance. I watch videos of them as often as possible. > > Since, I also dance it well (haven't yet, seen anyone dance a better Milonga in person) > > I'm claiming non-newbie status and pointing to this couple's dance as special ! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wcKFnUI-YU&feature=related > > It looks like 'milonga loca' to me. They're killing the dance. Dance > like that in a milonga in Buenos Aires and you will be barred from > that place for life. > > That's all we need is for more people to use this a role model for > their own dancing. As if navigation at milongas in the US isn't > chaotic enough. I do think it's very important when posting videos to make it crystal clear whether the video is being presented as a good example of social tango (salon) or performance tango (fantasia). There is nothing wrong with the Guillermina Quiroga & Roberto Reis milonga video if it is being presented as a nice example of performance milonga; but, as you point out, it would be an extremely counter-productive model for the student trying to learn how to dance at a milonga. Huck From tangomaniac at cavtel.net Thu Apr 24 14:47:03 2008 From: tangomaniac at cavtel.net (Michael) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:47:03 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> Message-ID: <13176a380804241147n383c23ecxd156230e6cbff064@mail.gmail.com> Floyd: I understand better what you mean. But if I was beginner, I'd be confused if I went to tango festivals where instructors spoke about " the lead" and not "the leads" after your description. I agree the torso sends many signals; tempo, degree of rotation, direction of step, etc. I wouldn't want to call it multiple leads. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC Looks like spring is going to stay here On 4/24/08, Floyd Baker wrote: > > > > But you *can* give more than one lead at a time, within a single step, > or followers weight change. The leader's entire body is in fact the > lead.., including every movement it makes. The follower needs to be > in tune with all of it... > > I know most everyone goes the single lead way.., I only consider followers taking single steps only. I never consider multiple steps, which I call 'moves'. I was trying to say that the follower must keep her senses open for many leads at once. Coming all the time within each step she takes.. To be ready and able to perform the various steps and the modifications she feels.., as opposed to the vanilla one of three step leads, coming one at a time. I hope it makes sense... It does to me... Floyd From martin at waxman.net Thu Apr 24 15:29:51 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:29:51 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <13176a380804241147n383c23ecxd156230e6cbff064@mail.gmail.co m> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> <13176a380804241147n383c23ecxd156230e6cbff064@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424152618.014a01d0@waxman.net> At 02:47 PM 4/24/2008, Floyd wrote: >... multiple leads. >I hope it makes sense... It does to me... >Floyd Makes no sense at all. It's just ONE complex lead/mark. Marty From donnay at donnay.net Thu Apr 24 16:33:42 2008 From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:33:42 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> Message-ID: <274F5D08E5A44D92B044618D707CEAC9@gatewaylaptop> > Sorry for the time delay. It's difficult for me to put things into > words the right way, the first, second, or even the third time I try. > :-) > But wait - didn't you say you were teaching tango? From spatz at tangoDC.com Thu Apr 24 17:15:41 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:15:41 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango (dropouts) In-Reply-To: <166F7952-4A7A-41FC-A9F6-55E8ACB1A5AF@tango.org> References: <20080424134044.BAD0D23530A@p3fed1.frb.org> <166F7952-4A7A-41FC-A9F6-55E8ACB1A5AF@tango.org> Message-ID: <4810F87D.7030404@tangoDC.com> Tom Stermitz wrote: > Retention of the guys happens if the teacher can create the following learning experience: At the end of a one hour class, most of the guys can walk their partner through a dance at a regular milonga. [...] Notice it is about whether they FEEL successful. Tom, do you dance with these guys yourself? (I mean, to "FEEL successful" means two things, when you consider it...) I.e.,... ARE they successful? IME, newbie attrition comes from one very simple (and seemingly ineradicable) problem: beginners learning with beginners. Sometimes I wonder if US tango would attract and retain more people if there were simply no beginner classes at all. It works quite well in yoga, I notice; new people there simply look around themselves and make an effort to blend in. Jake From spatz at tangoDC.com Thu Apr 24 17:52:50 2008 From: spatz at tangoDC.com (Jake Spatz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:52:50 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> Message-ID: <48110132.8020100@tangoDC.com> Michael wrote: > Floyd: > I don't know what you mean "leads are not just given one at a time. That they will come to see two and three being given at once." > > I only give one at a time. Then what's a cruzada? > The woman has to finish a step before she can do the next step. Then what's a rock-step? > I can't give her three steps at once. Then what's a corrida? :-) Floyd Baker wrote: > Another multiple lead would be to start the follower back on her right foot but then to cross your left foot behind you so it ends up to the right of your right foot. This would give the follower a lead to the back and to her left too, _thereby throwing her off balance_. Her right foot ending up to the left of her left foot. > [emphasis mine] Aha, the famous Falling Down technique... Floyd, how does this square with your "she gets to dance by herself" bit? Jake From tl2 at chrisjj.com Thu Apr 24 19:06:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <274F5D08E5A44D92B044618D707CEAC9@gatewaylaptop> Message-ID: > > It's difficult for me to put things into words the right way, the > > first, second, or even the third time I try. > > > But wait - didn't you say you were teaching tango? Indeed he did. One can't truly teach tango /without/ recognising the inadequacy of the medium of words. It those who think they /can/ communicate what matters in words that are the ones not teaching - merely talking about it, or worse: instructing. -- Chris From patangos at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 05:36:12 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <871065.41154.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Chris, I think we have a different idea about community. You are also confusing a common business structure of an enterprise with the idea of community. In a lot of small communities, tango gets started through people pooling their resources to form non-profits. Officers are often elected as a legal requirement to share a balance of power. That is how things are often done in the States. Perhaps things are different in the UK. What your describing as a community sounds to me like a commercial enterprise - like walking into a department store to buy something without any connection to the sales people or the store. I'm referring to a group of individuals with sharing the same interests. Here in the Midwest, as in other parts of the US, the sense of community is often strong with people caring about what happens. As such people emerge who care enough about their communities to want to do something to help it grow. These people become community leaders, often without even realizing it. In my case, I was simply the one assisting in classes, then sending out emails and meeting people, then acting as host at milongas and practicas. Thirteen years after taking my first tango class, I somehow wind up being the main tango organzer in town. What I've become is the main contact person for tango in Pittsburgh. I keep track of all events happening in the area and make sure others know what is going on. As such, we've been able to develop 4 different clubs and 4 music groups. Each of these 8 organizations have different niches, but it takes communication and planning for everyone to get the support they need. I don't understand what you don't get about this. Perhaps you're not terribly involved with your community, which is fine. I love my community enough to get really involved, enough to let my phone ring off the hook and let my inbox fill up with requests and questions. And I know my work is appreciated by the "thank you's" and small gifts people take the trouble to make for us. Perhaps to you, these things would mean nothing. To me, it means that people care and this is the type of community I have and hope to continue to be a part of. If you'd rather have your community be no different than going to the mall, that's fine. To each, his own. Also, thank you for your comments as they've allowed me discuss these issues to help others. I've gotten a lot of private emails since this thread started from different areas of the country. Trini de Pittsburgh --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > > Actually, Chris, there are quite a number of nonprofits > with elected > > officials (presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, > treasurers) who > > are all community leaders. Their memberships have > elected them to > > handle the affairs of the club. > > Um, that's not a community - it what comes from /lack/ of > community. > > Real tango communities don't have so-called community > leaders, and it > follows that so-called community leaders don't have real > tango > communities... > > ...hence their need to form clubs, hold elections and > bestow > important-sounding titles upon one another. You can tell > a real tango > dance community by the fact people would rather dance. ;) > > -- > Chris PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From febaker at buffalotango.com Fri Apr 25 08:27:29 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:27:29 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <48110132.8020100@tangoDC.com> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> <48110132.8020100@tangoDC.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:52:50 -0400, you wrote: >Floyd Baker wrote: >> Another multiple lead would be to start the follower back on her right foot but then to cross your left foot behind you so it ends up to the right of your right foot. This would give the follower a lead to the back and to her left too, _thereby throwing her off balance_. Her right foot ending up to the left of her left foot. >> [emphasis mine] >Aha, the famous Falling Down technique... Floyd, how does this square >with your "she gets to dance by herself" bit? I hope people see what I mean about choosing words very correctly on Tango-L? :-) Still, I don't understand you're 'falling down technique'. That's a new one on me. Do you understand the off-balance idea at all? How about if I said 'led off axis'. Still nothing? As for squaring..? It squares very well... She gets to do it to herself by following the two simultaneous, usually contradictory, leads coming at her. They are multimple leads so she must do both at once, by herself... But then she catches herself too... Again, all by herself... Because the follower could follow and had confidence in the leader.... Tango on. Floyd... >Jake Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From febaker at buffalotango.com Fri Apr 25 09:10:08 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:10:08 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <274F5D08E5A44D92B044618D707CEAC9@gatewaylaptop> References: <000601c8a5b6$dfd6db10$44203e43@michaelditkoff> <7b3114lam1n56a827h0f4k0bb9a69gn0er@4ax.com> <274F5D08E5A44D92B044618D707CEAC9@gatewaylaptop> Message-ID: <4sl3149kfc4m1eb37ajkmrgmjganq4q492@4ax.com> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:33:42 -0500, you wrote: >> Sorry for the time delay. It's difficult for me to put things into >> words the right way, the first, second, or even the third time I try. >> :-) >> >But wait - didn't you say you were teaching tango? Sure e'nuff teaching Tango. But I'm always worried about getting the words *extra* right when sending to Tango-L. It's not enough to cross the t's and dot the i's.., but one must fill the water buckets, find the shovel, open the sand box and close all the fire doors too. :-) Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 09:53:01 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Good morning, Vals Message-ID: <760964.99327.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMyyqFEZcGQ Liliana Godoy y Abel dance a milonguero Vals. What better way to start the day than an upbeat dance. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Fri Apr 25 10:34:28 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Good morning, Vals Message-ID: <927652.31958.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hmmm, I just got this message: I was having a great day until I viewed the video? Upbeat? No way! ..well, I guess that 'milonguero' is not really a 'lght' experience.. but here's a Vals that is light and it's been posted before but it is my all time favorite Vals... (and Igor's, too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orgGazxNz64 OK, now tell me about this one!...upbeat personified!!!! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From skindance at juno.com Fri Apr 25 13:15:17 2008 From: skindance at juno.com (skindance@juno.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:15:17 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] FYI More Economic Problems for Argentina Message-ID: <20080425.112019.1184.12.skindance@juno.com> See Argentine Bonds Tumble After Economy Minister Lousteau Resigns http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aqev_rwKv58Q&refer=ne ws From brick at fastpack.com Fri Apr 25 14:22:15 2008 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 25, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango >I think there are some communities where the students end up sorting out >among the teachers--with one group of teachers teaching the basics Tom >describes and another group to teaching fancy figures and long sequences. As far as the gender sorting goes, here is a quote from one of the Argentinians in our community: "They may have more women, but tell me, do you actually WANT to dance with any of them?" I know it sounds mean, but to a certain extent, this view is held by many of the men in the community. It seems to me that this particular studio follows the "Arthur Murray" model: They have a "steps" syllabus, a "teachers training program," a line of videos, a performance "dance company," student showcases, social oriented group classes and lots of internal social dances, so the students never need to leave the studio. And they Sell tango. It works for them.... Or at least it seems to pay their bills. There are other teachers in town, but no other dedicated "tango only" spaces or studios. >One interesting question is to what extent a tango community only has one >shot any given newbie. If someone first goes to a teacher who doesn't >suit his/her learning needs are they inclined to drop out or move onto >another instructor? I think this depends on how much of a connection they have to the people in the community. If they are a friend of a Tanguero/a then they are likely to stay. If they just walked in off the street then probably not. From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Fri Apr 25 21:37:05 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:37:05 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 25, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <222E84A9BC4A4D648EDADB4484FC79AE@homePC> > As far as the gender sorting goes, here is a quote from one of the > Argentinians in our community: "They may have more women, but tell me, do > you actually WANT to dance with any of them?" I know it sounds mean, but > to > a certain extent, this view is held by many of the men in the community. > Brick, this may come as news to you but women have exactly the same thoughts at a milonga. We may outnumber the men present by 3:1 and of those few that are there, the rate of people not worth the time on the dance floor vs the ones who really know how to dance may be again 3:1 or even worse, so on a bad day, the women in reality actually outnumber the danceable men by 8 or 10:1. From brick at fastpack.com Fri Apr 25 21:57:39 2008 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:57:39 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 25, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: <222E84A9BC4A4D648EDADB4484FC79AE@homePC> References: <222E84A9BC4A4D648EDADB4484FC79AE@homePC> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Astrid wrote: > this may come as news to you but women have exactly the same thoughts at a > milonga. We may outnumber the men present by 3:1 and of those few that are > there, the rate of people not worth the time on the dance floor vs the ones > who really know how to dance may be again 3:1 or even worse, so on a bad > day, the women in reality actually outnumber the danceable men by 8 or 10:1. Of course it doesn't come as any news to me. And I'm sure that many of those women thinking the men are not worth the time, suck worse than the men they don't want to dance with. Anyway, this wasn't a discussion of who is worth dancing with, it was a discussion about gender imbalance and teaching methods. And my apologies to the list, for not changing the subject line when I was replying to the digest. From larrynla at juno.com Sat Apr 26 04:23:04 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:23:04 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] Following is active & mulitLEVEL leads Message-ID: <20080426.012304.26675.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> Floyd Baker (Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report) wrote of exercises to improve following. I want to second and emphasize a point he makes - following is as active a process as leading. In a couple of weeks Casa de Practica here in Los Angeles (LINK - casedepractica.com) is beginning a series called Leading Ladies of Tango, which I plan to attend as a follower. I know very well I'm not going to have an easy time of it. At least from leading I know intellectually some of what a follower does. I expect my reflexes will give me most problems, especially learning to give over much of the control of my larger actions. _____________________________________ Looking at another aspect of Floyd's commentary - "Multilevel" might be a better word than mulitiple to describe leading and following. For different parts of our bodies and psyches all at the same time contribute to the synchronization of two partners. One of the most important parts is usually neglected in classes on leading and following - the emotional and mental connection between partners. I suppose this is partly because exercises for that would be boring or difficult or both, or maybe considered so profound a part of us that it's unchangeable. (Interestingly, Floyd did deal with this issue, as when he talks about having followers close their eyes and so on.) We can divide a body up into several levels or functioning parts - perhaps with the psyche one level above everything else! The midriff is the most massive "cargo." Where it goes everything else goes. When analyzing a figure this is the first item to consider, ditto when creating a figure. Many sports spend considerable time on exercising and training the middle, including the martial arts. Sumo may be the most obvious, but I recall judo spending a lot of time on it the year I studied it. Hand leads have gotten a bad rap in tango. It's sometimes said that one should not use them to lead at all. That's wrong. It's more correct to say that one should use one's hands only for leading that is not better done by something else. But there are some actions for which hands are crucial to leading properly. (If you don't know what they are, consider this a thought exercise!) Thanks for the post, Floyd. Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Find great deals from qualified plastic surgeons. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifdxQEwOnnSvTSgapqCimv2sogOwd3dAnkmT0dKiuAmVdMrQ/ From martin at waxman.net Sat Apr 26 10:08:44 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:08:44 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Following is active & mulitLEVEL leads In-Reply-To: <20080426.012304.26675.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> References: <20080426.012304.26675.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426095229.01f42d38@waxman.net> At 04:23 AM 4/26/2008, larrynla at juno.com wrote: >Hand leads have gotten a bad rap in tango. It's >sometimes said that one should not use them to >lead at all. That's wrong. It's more correct >to say that one should use one's hands only for >leading that is not better done by something >else. But there are some actions for which >hands are crucial to leading properly. (If you >don't know what they are, consider this a thought exercise!) I agree. When I was first learning AT, I was taught that the more open the embrace, the more "alive" the right hand should be in position and pressure to positively indicate the lead/mark. Works for me. Also, instructional videos by people like Norberto "Pulpo" Esbr?z clearly explain, emphasize, point out the purpose behind each right hand lead position used -- without this hand lead, the intention is not clear to the follower. Marty From keith at tangohk.com Thu Apr 24 00:31:01 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:31:01 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. Message-ID: <49694.1209011461@tangohk.com> Floyd, Wow, so much to comment on, but I'll follow Michael's lead and pick just one. On Thu Apr 24 10:30 , Floyd Baker sent: > ignoring the leader's weight changes, and >many other ways they need to be aware of, if they are to Tango >correctly. > Why should the lady 'ignore' the man's weight changes or, more importantly, how should she know when to ignore them and when to follow them? I've always believed that the man should change weight so that the lady doesn't even feel it. If she does feel it, she should follow it unless the man prevents that in some way, eg. 'suspension'. Keith, HK From rlipkin at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 10:57:43 2008 From: rlipkin at gmail.com (Richard Lipkin) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:57:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga sequence Message-ID: <4d5149800804260757h45b28682gb3a22ba5138688a8@mail.gmail.com> Here is a clip from the Argentine film "La voz de mi ciudad" with Mariano Mores and orquesta playing Taquito Militar. There is a seven second dance sequence at 2:53 which is performed in such a different way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHiISotwo0 Can anyone explain it? Is it merely a film choreography of no great historical value? or is it an example of an obscure or forgotten style? Richard www.newyorktango.com From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Apr 26 11:47:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Following is active & mulitLEVEL leads In-Reply-To: <20080426.012304.26675.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: > one should use one's hands only for leading that is not better done by > something else. Or: one should use one's hands only for leading that is better not done at all. > there are some actions for which hands are crucial to leading properly. Leading her back to her table? ;) It's interesting to note how few girls agree with the idea that hand lead is ever "crucial". Or even welcome. And as one great teacher said, "If she doesn't enjoy it, don't do it." -- Chris From keith at totango.net Sat Apr 26 12:16:05 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga sequence Message-ID: <61051.65.93.52.202.1209226565.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Thanks for that clip pointer, Richard. Neat to see. Mores was so brilliant. But how odd is it that his orchestrations kept the bandoneon way in the background - even though he plays it? Keith ToTANGO.net From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Sat Apr 26 13:13:23 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:13:23 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: References: <222E84A9BC4A4D648EDADB4484FC79AE@homePC> Message-ID: <155801372B014C39AA39458AA34F3AA3@homePC> Brick wrote: > And I'm sure that many of those women thinking the men are not worth > the time, suck worse than the men they don't want to dance with. > And what gives you that idea? It takes a while for a woman to realise that some of those guys who impressed her in the beginning are actually quite mediocre compared to the really good ones. You know the type, those who prey on beginners because they are the only ones they can impress with their leading? Whatever, this is news to very few people in here, probably, but the truth is, on a lucky day, one may discover a new,talented, promising beginner among the men, while on a bad day, one only sees the same eternal intermediates who nevertheless may be so full of themselves that they have closed themselves off to polishing up their weak points, and the gender imbalance lets them get away with it. Astrid from Tokyo which is experiencing a bellydance boom, while my favourite milonga is going to be out of studio soon = ( From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Apr 26 13:21:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: <871065.41154.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Trini wrote: > In a lot of small communities, tango gets started through people > pooling their resources to form non-profits. Officers are often > elected as a legal requirement to share a balance of power. That > is how things are often done in the States. "in the States" - no doubt. But I think you'll find, as I said, that phenomenon is largely confined to the tango third world. Perhaps in part because in established tango communities, "balance of power" and getting a share of it doesn't have quite as much appeal... > What your describing as a community sounds to me like a commercial > enterprise I can't see how. My description was only: Real tango communities don't have so-called community leaders ... You can tell a real tango dance community by the fact people would rather dance. ;) > As such people emerge who care enough about their communities to > want to do something to help it grow. Well sure - see "power" above. > thank you for your comments as they've allowed me discuss these > issues to help others. I've gotten a lot of private emails since > this thread started from different areas of the country. I'm glad to hear I've contributed to your learning about tango community in, um, "the" country. Thanks for your contribution to mine. -- Chris From larrynla at juno.com Sat Apr 26 14:45:03 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:45:03 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] seven second dance sequence Message-ID: <20080426.114503.20246.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com> Richard Lipkin, who provides the incredibly helpful www.NewYorkTango.com website, writes --------> Here is a clip from the Argentine film "La voz de mi ciudad" with Mariano Mores and orquesta playing Taquito Militar. There is a seven second dance sequence at 2:53 which is performed in such a different way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHiISotwo0 Can anyone explain it? Is it merely a film choreography of no great historical value? or is it an example of an obscure or forgotten style? __________________________ This is a swing variant. Nowadays we only have two major varieties, east coast (Rock and Roll, etc.) and west coast, but in the times when Mariano Mores became famous there were dozens, including some that were extremely compact because of the huge block-sized crowds who danced swing. Notice at the very beginning when several other musicians chimed in? Those sounds were right out of Benny Goodman etc. This video is a cut-down version. The original is longer and includes some beautiful shots of downtown BsAs in full night action, cars and buses and trucks zipping by in time to the music. Maybe some huge cargo ships at dock providing fog-horn-like accompaniment in place of a tuba. And a pair of professional tango dancers on a traffic island doing stuff we've seen in modern tango shows. Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Find great deals from qualified plastic surgeons. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifdxQIelcImd0ZdzOecsjrGqT6HVrR3838E5O0SyTiBzxMrw/ From imhmedia at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 15:06:56 2008 From: imhmedia at yahoo.com (Ilene Marder) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:06:56 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] seven second dance sequence In-Reply-To: <20080426.114503.20246.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com> References: <20080426.114503.20246.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <48137D50.7030100@yahoo.com> the shoulder sacada was really cool...!!! larrynla at juno.com wrote: >Richard Lipkin, who provides the incredibly helpful www.NewYorkTango.com website, writes --------> > >Here is a clip from the Argentine film "La voz de mi ciudad" with Mariano Mores and orquesta playing Taquito Militar. There is a seven second dance sequence at 2:53 which is performed in such a different way. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHiISotwo0 > >Can anyone explain it? Is it merely a film choreography of no great historical value? or is it an example of an obscure or forgotten style? >__________________________ >This is a swing variant. Nowadays we only have two major varieties, east coast (Rock and Roll, etc.) and west coast, but in the times when Mariano Mores became famous there were dozens, including some that were extremely compact because of the huge block-sized crowds who danced swing. > >Notice at the very beginning when several other musicians chimed in? Those sounds were right out of Benny Goodman etc. > >This video is a cut-down version. The original is longer and includes some beautiful shots of downtown BsAs in full night action, cars and buses and trucks zipping by in time to the music. Maybe some huge cargo ships at dock providing fog-horn-like accompaniment in place of a tuba. And a pair of professional tango dancers on a traffic island doing stuff we've seen in modern tango shows. > >Larry de Los Angeles > >_____________________________________________________________ >Find great deals from qualified plastic surgeons. Click now! >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifdxQIelcImd0ZdzOecsjrGqT6HVrR3838E5O0SyTiBzxMrw/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > From larrynla at juno.com Sat Apr 26 15:58:40 2008 From: larrynla at juno.com (larrynla@juno.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:58:40 GMT Subject: [Tango-L] body, hand leads Message-ID: <20080426.125840.15644.1@webmail04.dca.untd.com> Keith, HK writes -------> Why should the lady 'ignore' the man's weight changes or, more importantly, how should she know when to ignore them and when to follow them? I've always believed that the man should change weight so that the lady doesn't even feel it. If she does feel it, she should follow it unless the man prevents that in some way, eg. 'suspension'. _____________________ I think Floyd means "ignore during those exercises he was describing." When dancing the weight change of one's partner main body mass before a step is the major clue as to what's happening next. It's how a man can plan to step onto the next beat of music and his partner step on it at exactly the same time. She can't read his mind; she must read his body. And since the human reaction time is typically between 1/4 and 1/2 second, she must have warning in enough time to keep up with him. Here are some practical applications of this. The basic rhythm in tango is slow-slow. The follower habitually steps to that rhythm. This is how a man can safely do sacadas; he knows where her feet are going to be at any time (though he must glance down for an instant to be sure). This is also how she can do adornos, which go between steps, because she's secure knowing that she has time to do them, and that he won't intrude without making sure there's space. (If he's in a close embrace, he can't see but he can feel her legs indirectly through her body motion or directly through the - be still my libido! - silken caress of her thighs.) It is said that the woman owns the rhythm and the man owns the changing of it - as well changing the direction of the walk. If he wants to throw in an extra step or two (or more) he must do something extra with his lead. If he wants her to copy his rhythm change he has to keep a firm (maybe extra firm) embrace. If he wants her to continue the basic rhythm while he does his rhythm-adorno he must "suspend" (as Keith says) their contact a bit: loosen his embrace and give her added room to reduce body contact. _____________________ If this sounds like an awful lot to think about, it is. But thinking is what you're supposed to do in practice, to direct your practice to improve enough so that you don't think about details while dancing. You think about your partner and how wonderful hi/r body feels against you, about what s/he means to you, how lovely the moon is, how wonderful the music. Tango seems to screw up people's brains sometimes. They may be a competition level tennis player or professional pianist, used to volleying balls against a fence, or playing the scales, for literally hours a week to get new skills or to keep old ones. But when it comes to more advanced tango dancing, suddenly they want to go right to Olympic levels without work. _____________________ Chris, UK writes --------> > there are some actions for which hands are crucial to leading properly. Leading her back to her table? ;) It's interesting to note how few girls agree with the idea that hand lead is ever "crucial". _____________________ Is pan-universal telepathy with girls a new or an old skill with you?! Perhaps this bad rap for hand leads got started because so many leaders want to wrestle women into following a lead. But to dismiss hands entirely is to ignore basic ergonomics. Large motions in dance are shaped by the mid-body, the hara in judo and dan-tyen in kungfu. The upper body contact further refines the motions the leader wants. The arms further refine it. The hands occasionally refine it further IF NEEDED. Here's an example. In a parada, a stop, the leader presses his right hand firmly against his partner's back to arrest the last few inches of her backward motion. At the same time his left hand presses against the palm of her "balance" hand. The two pressures counter-balance each other. The better the leader the lesser the pressures, but there must be some to fine-tune the parada at exactly the desired spot and attitude of his partner's body. The hand has other uses in dancing tango. It's very handy in patting a woman's bottom. And slapping his face. Larry de Los Angeles _____________________________________________________________ Keep your home running smoothly with great home automation solutions! Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifZqjdswrNxn0tsUhSTvIt3E9E9QqpfB9Pxwq2st4tWgPbcW/ From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 16:20:17 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes In-Reply-To: <49694.1209011461@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <851868.78751.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Keith wrote: I've always believed that the man should change weight so that the lady doesn't even feel it. If she does feel it, she should follow it unless the man prevents that in some way, eg. 'suspension'. --- Hi Keith, Sean here. Personally, I would be amazed by any man who could change weight in a way such that a moderately sensitive woman "doesn't even feel it". You must either shift your axis or loose your balance when you change weight. Assuming both partners know enough to maintain an axis, either action will be detected. Surely you know that there is no way a woman can change weight without a competent man feeling it. Why would it be any different the other way around? If a man wants to change weight without the woman changing weight, he simply moves himself while indicating to her to stay on her axis. The calicita is the most obvious example, but the exact same principal applies any time the man wishes to change between crossed and parallel system. The idea that the man could hide his weight change from the woman is often taught, but probably impossible to achieve. The only thing achieved is too keep gullible people coming back for more classes instead of learning to dance. (Sorry if that sounds like a Chris UK statement. I?m not anti-teaching, just anti-incompetence.) One of the lead-follow exercises I teach to rank beginners is to change their partner's weight without changing their weight, and to change their weight without changing their partners weight. I do this as an exercise, not connected to any sequence of steps. Once they can do it standing in one place, I ask them to do it walking. First the man changes weight every time he passes through neutral, while leading the woman to continue through the step without a weight change. Next the man indicates to the woman to change weight every time she passes through neutral, while he continues through the step. Once they can manage these two for a full song, I ask the men to mix it up. He decides and indicates whether he, she or both will change weight on the up beat. This is all done in practice embrace, with the man's arms at his side, and the woman's arms on his chest. It is interesting that most people who have never danced tango can figure out and do this exercise in under an hour. But many people who have been taking (other's) classes for months can't manage it. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 16:49:31 2008 From: dubravko_2005 at yahoo.com (Dubravko Kakarigi) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes Message-ID: <427533.19253.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Agreed! It is certainly possible to change weight without the lady noticing it. It is also possible, alhough more difficult, to fake a weight change thus inviting the lady to change weight without the man doing it and thus change from/to cross to/from parallel system. Great fun! =================================== seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal =================================== ----- Original Message ---- From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) To: Tango-L Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 4:20:17 PM Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes --- Keith wrote: I've always believed that the man should change weight so that the lady doesn't even feel it. If she does feel it, she should follow it unless the man prevents that in some way, eg. 'suspension'. --- From robinctara at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 17:26:39 2008 From: robinctara at gmail.com (robin tara) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:26:39 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes In-Reply-To: <427533.19253.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <427533.19253.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e1cc4860804261426tcb52962td10cf09e2b5ad6d3@mail.gmail.com> Sean wrote >Personally, I would be amazed by any man who could change weight in a way such that a moderately sensitive woman "doesn't even feel it". Yesterday I was assisting Reuben Aybar, here in Buenos Aires, and we taught a man to "change weight" without his partner feeling it, in about 5 minutes. The words "weight change" is misleading though. What he learned was how to change feet without his partner feeling it - his axis remained the same. I believe this is what is being referred to. For example, it happens when the leader steps to the left with his partner, changes his weight from his left foot to his right and continues forward with his left foot again. His partner steps to the left with her right foot and continues back with her left, putting the partners in the "crossed system". When the man does this without his partner detecting the weight change, it works, otherwise, she changes weight with him, and they remain in the "parallel system". Robin Tara From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 17:26:39 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <155801372B014C39AA39458AA34F3AA3@homePC> Message-ID: <67416.88604.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Sean here, with one man's perspective: --- Astrid wrote: "so on a bad day, the women in reality actually outnumber the danceable men by 8 or 10:1." Come on Astrid, it's not fair and highly provacative to compare the total number of women to the number of "danceable" men. In my experience, if you compare daceable women to danceable men, the ratio is probably much closer to 1:1, regardless of the overall ratio of women to men. The problem for "danceable" women is that many of the danceable men cave in to the pressure to dance with "undanceable" women. --- Brick wrote: "And I'm sure that many of those women thinking the men are not worth the time, suck worse than the men they don't want to dance with." Also provacatively phrased, but nonetheless often true in my experience. --- Astrid wrote: "And what gives you that idea?" For me, it might be the number of women who tell me that I am the only man who can make them "feel like they are _really_ dancing". I think their intention is to compliment my dancing, rather than my hidden talent as an illusionist. Sadly they don't understand and resent the time I spend dancing with the women who are _really_ dancing, without any need of my illusionist skills. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From jayrabe at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 17:57:54 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:57:54 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860804261426tcb52962td10cf09e2b5ad6d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <427533.19253.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9e1cc4860804261426tcb52962td10cf09e2b5ad6d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Robin wrote: >... change feet without his partner feeling it - his > axis remained the same. ... ------------------- I think talking about the axis is off the mark. It's confused by the fact that the axis is a line that is unavoidably through his center of mass and through the center of his foot. So if he changes which foot his weight is on, he undeniably changes his axis. I think it's more accurate and productive to talk about him maintaining the position of his chest/torso. That's what the follower is following anyway. He certainly can change which foot his weight is on without moving his chest. Structurally what happens is that he slightly moves his hips to the side to maintain his balance. It's not something you have to think about. If you intend to change your weight, and intend to maintain your chest in exactly the same position, then the hips move slightly. The other solution mentioned was that he can step slightly larger than his follower, keeping her body positioned unambiguously over her standing foot. This implies IMO that she is slightly off-balance, but regardless she is clearly led to stay on her weighted foot and not change her weight. If he then changes his weight, even if he does so with a completely vertical body (ie not using the hips), she just becomes slightly less off balance and still does not receive a lead to change her weight. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL From lgmoseley at aol.com Sat Apr 26 18:48:04 2008 From: lgmoseley at aol.com (Laurence Moseley) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:48:04 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding weight changes" Message-ID: <8CA7606B8E30299-600-339B@WEBMAIL-DG08.sim.aol.com> Someone said that they were amazed that a man could change weight without the lady even feeling it. In my experience, it happens all the time in Tango. Whenever you change from parallel into crossed feet (or vice versa) you have to do it without the lady feeling it. That's the whole point of the change. It does not matter if you take two steps to her one, or one step to her two, she stilll has to avoid moving with it. Technically, I suspect that one can do it in a variety of ways: 1. Soft knees are, as always, important. With soft knees you have the choice of transferring your weight fully to the foot which has just moved, or of softening the knee of the moving foot still further. 2. Some men visibly lift the lady slightly on the side on which you do not wish her to move her foot. I imagine that some people do it invisibly, but as it is invisible I would not have spotted it. I suspect that this may be open to abuse or over-use. 3. There may also be something in the way a man uses his right arm. If he steps left and with a firm right arm, the lady will step with him all the way to the weight change. If his right arm is less firm, then she will step with him, but not all the way to the weight change. The old adage "The body leads and the arm confiirms" may be relevant here. 4. The critical feature is that one divorces the body from the feet. Suppose that you are walking outside to your left (the lady's right). You can easily do one or more change steps (lock steps or whatever you call them) to a Quick-Quick syncopation. If you use only your feet, the lady will not respond and will continue with her usual Slow-Slow... However, if your body moves along the line that you are taking, then her body will feel it, and she will follow your Quick-Quicks. There are probably lots of other ways of doing or explaining it. I would welcome hearing of some of them. Laurie (Laurence) ________________________________________________________________________ AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now. From patangos at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 18:58:57 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding" weight changes In-Reply-To: <9e1cc4860804261426tcb52962td10cf09e2b5ad6d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <841916.3829.qm@web55315.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- robin tara wrote: Yesterday I was assisting Reuben Aybar, here in Buenos Aires, and we taught a man to "change weight" without his partner feeling it, in about 5 minutes. The words "weight change" is misleading though. What he learned was how to change feet without his partner feeling it - his axis remained the same. --- Hi Robin, It seems to me that you are describing teaching the man to change weight in a way that the woman ignores it, which is a much different thing than saying that she can't detect it. It's not necessary, or even possible for his axis to remain the same while he changes feet. (The axis must pass though the weighted foot.) What matters is that her axis stays the same while he changes feet. He does this by moving around her axis and using a little spinal rotation to keep her on her axis. She feels that he is not displacing her axis, so she doesn't change weight. But she should be able to feel his weight change, and know enough to ignore it. The other side of that is that if he maintains his axis and rotates his spine, it will displace her axis, and she will change her weight, even though she can feel that he has not changed weight. ______________________________________ I did specify a "moderately sensitive woman" as the one who will detect any weight shift. By that I mean a woman who can sense everything the man does, without having to consciously think about it. I suppose that makes my argument circular. We have recently read from a beginner that he looks to find his follower's foot before executing a sacada. I suppose it would be easy to hide a weight shift from a woman of comparable level. But why bother? Without looking, I know where my partners feet are. I expect the same courtesy from her. And Keith is no beginner. He has assumed to role of a tango expert on this list, with the explicitly stated goal of training "world class" tango dancers. My goal is to train competent social dancers. At the minimum, I expect my students to always know exactly where their partner is, so the men execute sacadas without looking at the floor, and the women know which foot the man is on. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From bibibwong at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 20:15:24 2008 From: bibibwong at hotmail.com (Bibi Wong) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] body leads Message-ID: Hi larry, long time not seeing you here :-) Are you still wearing your cream color jacket? Larry wrote: It is said that the woman owns the rhythm and the man owns the changing of it - as well changing the direction of the walk. If he wants to throw in an extra step or two (or more) he must do something extra with his lead. If he wants her to copy his rhythm change he has to keep a firm (maybe extra firm) embrace. If he wants her to continue the basic rhythm while he does his rhythm-adorno he must "suspend" (as Keith says) their contact a bit: loosen his embrace and give her added room to reduce body contact. I buy that theory by experience, but with some clarifications. Once danced close embrace in Bs As with a skinny tall gentleman who was trying to learn milonga (his tango and vals are ok). He has not acquired the ability to stabilize his body while he was attempting fast feet and weight change. Being in close embrace, I felt like I was holding a tall jack hammer a I felt the vibration from his bones. It was my natural reaction by dancing double beats with adornos. He kept "yelling" in desperation to ask me slow down, out of his frustration, the jack hammer even switched into high gear and we went around the floor like 2 Tasmanian Devils. Being polite, I never told him what went wrong in a milonga setting; I figured he would improve eventually (6 years since) . So I thought besides weight change or lack thereof, the signals of men also involve isolation of upper and lower body to guide the rthythm of the women? I just don't see loosening up an embrace in a Bs As close embrace setting to acheive that result. Bibi _________________________________________________________________ Back to work after baby?how do you know when you?re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 22:00:32 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding weight changes" Message-ID: <114291.27525.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I loved your post on 'weight changes' , Laurence .. I would like to see more of that sort of lore, here. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 22:56:26 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding weight changes" Message-ID: <136685.99961.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is my favorite YouTube video on weight changes by Oscar and Maryann Casas. He makes everything look sooooo easy and the weight changes are so underplayed that they lay, right where they are supposed to be, in the unconscious. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Sat Apr 26 23:02:06 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] "Hiding weight changes" Message-ID: <371110.81731.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> oops, sorry, forgot the URL...here it is. Lots of demonstrated weight changes..and very sneaky..don't miss the very first one 15 seconds into the tape..there are several more coming and they aren't stressed nor made a big deal of...that may be a secret to teaching/learning...you learn what is done without being verbalized, di-sected, anal-eye zed, frontal lobalized to death...just a theory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcighNLXUao&feature=related --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From tl2 at chrisjj.com Sat Apr 26 23:03:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 04:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] body, hand leads In-Reply-To: <20080426.125840.15644.1@webmail04.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: > In a parada, a stop, the leader presses his right hand firmly against > his partner's back to arrest the last few inches of her backward motion > The better the leader the lesser the pressures, but there must be some That is nonsense. A good leader needs only the girl to stay on his chest. He stops, she stops. There are no "last few inches" of her motion to be arrested, because if there were, she'd be a few inches outside the embrace. -- Chris From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 27 08:10:11 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:10:11 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Buffalo's Ladies Only lesson report. In-Reply-To: <49694.1209011461@tangohk.com> References: <49694.1209011461@tangohk.com> Message-ID: <4up8141hks6dj9kaqu8gi5ro585v3o8g03@4ax.com> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:31:01 -0400, you wrote: >Floyd, > >Wow, so much to comment on, but I'll follow Michael's lead and pick just one. > > On Thu Apr 24 10:30 , Floyd Baker sent: > >> ignoring the leader's weight changes, and >>many other ways they need to be aware of, if they are to Tango >>correctly. >> > >Why should the lady 'ignore' the man's weight changes or, more importantly, >how should she know when to ignore them and when to follow them? I've >always believed that the man should change weight so that the lady doesn't >even feel it. If she does feel it, she should follow it unless the man prevents >that in some way, eg. 'suspension'. > >Keith, HK The lady must ignore the leaders independent weight changes, as the leader constantly changes his weight when he doesn't want the follower to. He wants the follower to change her weight only when she's *led* to do so.. Certainly one dances to not let their weight changes be felt. But many followers have been trained to specifically feel for them, and to react to them too.., in other dances maybe? So you must allow for that. We should really go back to the expression in Tango that 'the leader follows'... Where any good leader gives the lead first.., to get the follower moving, and then the leader does what he was going to do, after it's too late for the lady to think she should have done a weight change first. That way the leader doesn't have to worry about a follower doing things on her own, like getting onto the wrong foot. It's really not her option. But of course if the follower understands Tango, she would not take the leaders weight changes as a lead for her to do so too.. And that's what I said of course. Tango on... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 27 08:38:07 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:38:07 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] body, hand leads In-Reply-To: References: <20080426.125840.15644.1@webmail04.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: I lead the parada that way myself... The 'last few inches' being before the ankles close... I see it as basically a lead that there will not be another directional lead.., but in fact a stop! It's best to let the lady know what's going on so she isn't left hanging and thinking she missed a lead... Floyd On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 04:03 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >> In a parada, a stop, the leader presses his right hand firmly against >> his partner's back to arrest the last few inches of her backward motion >> The better the leader the lesser the pressures, but there must be some > >That is nonsense. A good leader needs only the girl to stay on his chest. >He stops, she stops. There are no "last few inches" of her motion to be >arrested, because if there were, she'd be a few inches outside the embrace. Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From joe.grohens at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 09:44:03 2008 From: joe.grohens at gmail.com (Joe Grohens) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:44:03 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] weight change Message-ID: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> Floyd wrote: > The lady must ignore the leaders independent weight changes, as the > leader constantly changes his weight when he doesn't want the > follower to. He wants the follower to change her weight only when > she's *led* to do so.. Certainly one dances to not let their weight > changes be felt. I personally feel that the movement and direction of the man's body mass _is_ the lead. I think that tango men become better at conveying their intentions when their weight on the floor is more clearly felt by the tango women. Men do not dance so that women can't feel their weight changes. It's the opposite. The woman is going to respond to where his weight is on the floor, and where and how his weight is moving. As for women, the better dancer a woman is, the more acutely she will sense the man's weight on the floor. The more experience she has in tango, the more she will know how to respond to this sense of his weight. From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 11:53:52 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Community building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <229121.59858.qm@web55315.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > That is nonsense. A good leader needs only the girl to > stay on his chest. Sean here. 99% of what is written on this list is nonsense. Now I remember why I quit writing. But Chris did have some good observations about communities. As he pointed out, an established community is self sustaining. There are no essential members. The problem here in the 3rd tango world is that established communities don't spontaneously appear. Someone has to start them from nothing, and those pioneers deserve credit for that. As the community is being built up, some people become the essential, sustaining members. Unfortunately, those members often end up being the very people who arrest the growth of the community when it is on the verge of becoming self sustaining. They aren't prepared to become mere mortal nonessential members. In your words, they don't want to give up their power. In most cases I think it has more to do with validation than with power. I suspect this is what Floyd is going through. For years, he was the driving force promoting tango in Buffalo. That brought him a certain status, even stardom on the local level. But the community grew too big for him to control. Some rogue members slipped out and went off to a festival in Toronto where they met some guys who dance very well. Now those same rouges are inviting outsiders to teach on his former turf. Floyd went from being the king of tango in Buffalo to just another non-essential member of the community in a very short time, and that must be painful. Now that they have dethroned their king, the next challenge facing the Buffalo rouges is to avoid setting themselves up as the next generation of petty tango tyrants. The leaders of a proto-community must be marginalized if it is ever to becoming self sustaining. They can do it themselves, someone will come along and do it for them, or the community will stagnate. Years ago, Trini and I were the rogues in Pittsburgh. We made some mistake along the way; but we also acted to marginalize our own importance from the very beginning. Our most successful strategy for community building has been to foster our own competition: - We helped to start tango clubs at two local universities, and then left them alone. Trini still volunteers to teach free classes for one of the clubs, but we don't interfere with their operation. - Trini promotes everyone's events in a weekly email newsletter. - We invite all of the competing teachers in Pittsburgh to take turns teaching the class before our weekly milonga. This gives every student a chance to meet all of the other teachers. As a bonus, it gives the Pittsburgh community more than one shot to retain new dancers. I have tough questions for all the self proclaimed community leaders on this list: - Are you building a self sustaining community (one that doesn't need you)? - Are you building a little tango fiefdom, totally dependent on you, so that you can play petty tango tyrant? - Or are you just a tango merchant, building a captive customer base for your personal profiteering? Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 27 12:13:14 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:13:14 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] weight change In-Reply-To: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> References: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:44:03 -0500, you wrote: >Floyd wrote: > >> The lady must ignore the leaders independent weight changes, as the >> leader constantly changes his weight when he doesn't want the >> follower to. He wants the follower to change her weight only when >> she's *led* to do so.. Certainly one dances to not let their weight >> changes be felt. > >I personally feel that the movement and direction of the man's body >mass _is_ the lead. I think that tango men become better at conveying >their intentions when their weight on the floor is more clearly felt >by the tango women. > >Men do not dance so that women can't feel their weight changes. It's >the opposite. The woman is going to respond to where his weight is on >the floor, and where and how his weight is moving. > >As for women, the better dancer a woman is, the more acutely she will >sense the man's weight on the floor. The more experience she has in >tango, the more she will know how to respond to this sense of his >weight. With Tango being possible to dance without touching at all, where 'weight changes'.., in and of themselves, would *never* be felt, although possibly glimpsed and causing further confusion, they are not something that can be relied upon for a lead. Weight changes by the follower must be led so the follower knows for sure. IMHO there is no gray. Tango is a walking dance, and there is the music to step on. The other standards one needs to follow, to pull off a totally improve dance, is where the leads are coming from, and where they're are not coming from. They come from above the waist. Whatever happens below the waist is never to be be considered... Except in a few specific and defined instances.... Blocks, invitations, etc. Force and emphasis are put into single or simultaneous leads, and at the same time, they can to impart speed, distance, and other modifications too. The leader may be hopping and skipping all around, doing whatever necessary to keep up with where he wants the leader and her feet to be.., but the follower has her own job to do.., and it is not dependent on her watching or feeling *everything* the leader is doing in his job. Just the leads he intends to give, from where they must be taken... It's pretty well understood that the ladies who helped bring about Tango didn't want to be part of the decision making process... As in the 'keeping centered' comment elsewhere. That's all it takes. The leader might be 'Clogging' down below, but as long as he stays totally centered with the follower, the lady should continue doing Tango.., by not moving. Especially not to try keeping up with his weight changes. Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From merritt.carolyn at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 12:25:43 2008 From: merritt.carolyn at gmail.com (carolyn merritt) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:25:43 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in China Message-ID: A friend sent me the following info on tango in China. Best, Carolyn don't know about shanghai, but in beijing the most reliable place is sinochu wine bar (eat somewhere else first, the food there sucks), on sundays and thursdays from 9 to 12. cri cri is the dj, and is a real doll so definately introduce yourself and she'll take care of you. (and say hi for me too) there is also a turkish dj, tayfun (pronounced like typhoon) who runs milongas with better music but his gigs sometimes get cancelled or moved at the last minute so if there's a phone number definately call before going. there is a listing on yahoo groups called tangoren that has all the info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TangoRen/ From keith at totango.net Sun Apr 27 12:45:34 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] weight change In-Reply-To: References: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60326.64.229.163.205.1209314734.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Floyd wrote: > 'weight changes'... are not something that can be relied upon for a lead. Weight changes by the > follower must be led so the follower knows for sure. Very clear. Yikes! I'm racking my memory, trying to recall if I've ever heard such nonsense. Or so much of it from one source as in the last week here. Floyd obviously has no regular experience as a follower. Nor much experience as a leader, as evidenced by his videos. I'm sorry, Floyd, but your enthusiasm for your gospel really seems to be getting ahead of what one ought to be preaching. A person who calls him/herself a teacher who is not comfortable and competent in either role is in dangerous territory every time they open their mouths. Why is it the ones who should keep them closed open them the most? I laud Joe Grohens for what he posted earlier today. I keep wondering when the penny will drop, Floyd. But your posts are getting more and more outrageous, sir. From sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 13:50:59 2008 From: sergiovandekier990 at hotmail.com (Sergio Vandekier) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:50:59 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] Weight changes Message-ID: "But of course if the follower understands Tango, she would not takethe leaders weight changes as a lead for her to do so too.. Andthat's what I said of course. Tango on... Floyd" I understand that there are many ways to dance tango, many ways to lead as well. What Floyd describes seems to work for him and that is fine. My experience is that most leaders change weight and at the same time communicate to the follower to change her weight as well. Or he changes weight and prevents her from changing her own weight. For instance ( in a salida cruzada) the leader opens to the left with left, she follows opening to her right with right, he keeps her on her right foot (using his torso or his right arm to do so), while he changes his weight from his left to his right foot. Now he steps forward with left and she steps back with her usual left. We may do a salida walking straight foprward. In this case I may step forward with my left or my right foot. I lead her to walk backwards with the proper foot by changing her weight from one foot to the other. I may do so just by changing my weight in place without moving either forward or backwards, she senses my chnges and changes as well, as I lead her to do so. She never "ignores" my weight changes. I lead her to change or not to change. I think that most people dance this way, but then... dance any way you wish. Have a good Sunday, Sergio _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 From buffmilonguera at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:01:55 2008 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:01:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] It's not just gender imbalance... Message-ID: <8CA76A7E9E46F85-1140-81@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com> ....it is, unfortunately, a fact that in most places, gender imbalance is something that women/followers have to deal with. My own solution was to learn how to lead - which I think I do about 75% at any given milonga and it is the rare workshop that I join the follows' side of the room. As a "gray-head" myself, I am very familiar with another imbalance. Older women are often left on the side-lines too long, too often. I have been to milongas where some excellent, albeit older followers, have sat most, if not all of the evening. At one milonga recently, I saw a very young woman who had never even seen the dance before, and truth be told, was not one of those follows that seem to take to it "naturally." The men who were asking her to dance were some of the most sought after in the community. I could see that some of them were having a difficult time dancing with her - yet she danced at least 4-5 tandas and was invited twice by a few of her partners. At the same time, some older women, who were excellent follows and well known in that community, sat most of the evening. As I said, I am a often a leader. I know that there are only so many tandas in any evening - and I often come to a milonga looking forward to dancing with my favorite milonga partners, and my favorite tango partners, etc., so I want to make sure I get a couple of tandas in with them. But I also try to stay aware of other follows at the milonga - and if I don't see them dancing, I make a point of asking. I love dancing with the more experienced older follows. They already know some of the steps I am learning to lead and are both forgiving and helpful, and I learn a lot. I love dancing with some of the older women who are still a little new to tango. They challenge my ability to improvise, to keep my balance, to keep my lead clean and clear and to "take care" of my partner, and I learn a lot. In both instances, I also have a lot of fun. I am not saying that it is each and every leaders' responsibility to make sure each and every follower dances. I am just saying that every milonga has time for at least one or two tandas danced with someone you notice has not been on the floor yet. imho, of course barbra Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks! From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 15:52:47 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] weight change In-Reply-To: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57289.80410.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Somewhere along the line, the point of my original post was lost, or maybe I never made it. So here it is, as plain and succinct as I can state it: Goal: The man changes weight without changing the woman's weight. Method 1: The man hides his weight change. (Impossible if the woman is competent.) Method 2: The man clearly indicates for the woman what he wants her to do, without resorting to secrecy, trickery or feints. ---- As Sergio said, dance however you want. For me, I spent countless hours trying to learn to hide my weight changes, and as a result, I can execute an extremely subtle weight change. But how much further along would I be if I had invested that time learning to better control "the movement and direction of the man's body mass"? (Thanks Joe.) ---- I received a private message from Keith about "producing world class tango dancers", so I went through the archives and found the post I was referring too. Unfortunately, I misremembered the context, and so ended up misrepresenting him. I apologize to him and the list for that misrepresentation. ---- Done for the day, Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From tango.society at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 17:53:12 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:53:12 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Community building In-Reply-To: <229121.59858.qm@web55315.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <229121.59858.qm@web55315.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > > Years ago, Trini and I were the rogues in Pittsburgh. We > made some mistake along the way; but we also acted to > marginalize our own importance from the very beginning. Our > most successful strategy for community building has been to > foster our own competition: > I have tough questions for all the self proclaimed > community leaders on this list: > - Are you building a self sustaining community (one that > doesn't need you)? > - Are you building a little tango fiefdom, totally > dependent on you, so that you can play petty tango tyrant? > - Or are you just a tango merchant, building a captive > customer base for your personal profiteering? > > Sean If creating more tango subgroups in Pittsburgh has led to greater overall community growth and harmony, then that is great. I've heard that a similar symbiotic relationship exists among tango groups in Portland. Certainly a tango community with only one organizer is always living on brink of extinction. However, with multiple organizers, rather than blissful harmony, the more likely scenario is the balkanization of tango communities. Numerous community members want to teach, be DJs, organize milongas, invite visiting instructors. To some degree, more teachers and milongas results in community growth, but my observation is that very few tango communities know when they have reached the optimal number of events. It is more likely that multiple classes, practicas and milongas leads to decreased attendance at most of them. Organizers compete for dancers. Hostilities develop. Newcomers see a small number of competing groups and get turned off. Some of these communities progress to senescence. So there is some optimal number of instructors, classes, milongas, and practicas that any community can have, based on potential population size. In rare cases, such as young communities, that number may be 1. In most cases, it is probably a few more. Most tango communities I have learned about have exceeded that optimal number. Ron From febaker at buffalotango.com Sun Apr 27 20:03:55 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:03:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Weight changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1l4a1494r8jc2m44v66n7pu8o3em6nnpe9@4ax.com> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:50:59 +0000, you wrote: > >"But of course if the follower understands Tango, she would not takethe leaders weight changes as a lead for her to do so too.. Andthat's what I said of course. Tango on... Floyd" > >I understand that there are many ways to dance tango, many ways to lead as well. >What Floyd describes seems to work for him and that is fine. >My experience is that most leaders change weight and at the same time communicate to the follower >to change her weight as well. Sergio... It seems we're saying the same thing but in different words. It's a walking dance and every step is a weight change. Except that I don't bother to tell the follower to change weight on every step. They do it themselves. But of course what we're really talking about are the weight changes that are done when the ankles are together.., as opposed to when the feet are separated.? >Or he changes weight and prevents her from changing her own weight. All that's necessary is to start the follower moving first. Then the leader can do whatever he wants to do. It would be too late for the follower to change weight on her own. >For instance ( in a salida cruzada) the leader opens to the left with left, she follows opening to >her right with right, he keeps her on her right foot (using his torso or his right arm to do so), >while he changes his weight from his left to his right foot. >Now he steps forward with left and she steps back with her usual left. Except the leader should tell the follower where to move her foot first. Before he moves his at all. Because this is an improv dance and she doesn't know that he wants to put his foot where hers is. When you tell her this, she quickly gets her's out of the way. Now the leader can quickly change his weight and step as you describe it with no problem... It's all in the timing. No need for extra stops, blocks, thinking about it, or in fact having the follower outsmart all of it and change her weight anyway... :-) >We may do a salida walking straight foprward. In this case I may step forward with my left or my right foot. >I lead her to walk backwards with the proper foot by changing her weight from one foot to the other. > >I may do so just by changing my weight in place without moving either forward or backwards, >she senses my chnges and changes as well, as I lead her to do so. I agree... That's a normally led weight-change... She's doing it because your center is moveing to the side, maybe even back and forth.., ever so slightly, and she tries to stay centered. The hollow spot under your adams apple.., or whatever she uses as her center point as the lead. She is to keep herself directly in front of it even if it means changing her weight... ;-) >She never "ignores" my weight changes. I lead her to change or not to change. > >I think that most people dance this way, but then... dance any way you wish. > >Have a good Sunday, >Sergio She may not ignore proper weight changes, but I make sure they can't do bad ones. Cause, imho, leads come from above the waist, and the lady is to do nothing without a lead. Except perhaps to cross? But as you say.., to each his own... As long as the followers ignore the weight changes they're not supposed to duplicate. Cheers.... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From patangos at yahoo.com Sun Apr 27 20:32:09 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Business practices (was Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <367330.51057.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- "Chris, UK" wrote: > Trini wrote: > > In a lot of small communities, tango gets started > through people pooling their resources to form non-profits. Officers are often elected as a legal requirement to share a balance of power. That is how things are often done in the States. > "in the States" - no doubt. But I think you'll find, as I said, that phenomenon is largely confined to the tango third world. Perhaps in part because in established tango communities, "balance of power" and getting a share of it doesn't have quite as much appeal... On the contrary, it becomes even more important, as I shall explain below. But first, please elaborate what you mean by "third world". You say it as if there is something wrong with being third-world. What do you mean by it? On issues about the balance of power. In larger cities, the monetary figures goes into tens of thousands of dollars. When this occurs it is critical that an appropriate structure be in place, especially for nonprofits, to protect the funds and property of the nonprofit. Since I'm much more familiar with for-profit corporations than I am with nonprofits, I'll discuss the issues in those terms. The underlying ideas, however still apply to nonprofits. A corporation is a legal entity (i.e., a "person") with its own rights. The structure and laws governing a corporation are intended to allow it to grow in perpetuity. The officers of a corporation (e.g., the chief executive officer, chief financial officer, chief operating officer, and director of marketing among others) have a fiduciary obligation to treat the money of the corporation with the same care as if it was their own (this is the legal standard). This is to protect the investors. These officers also report to the board of directors (comprised of both outside directors and company officers) who represent the shareholders. It's the board who hires/fires the CEO or the president of the company. Imagine what would happen if the CEO and the CFO was the same person. Of if the officers didn?t have to report to the board. Or if the CEO was chosen by the officers of the company. Think of how easy it would be for the funds of the corporation to be siphoned away into a Swiss bank account. This is why independent auditing is such a big deal. The Big 5 accounting firm of Arther Anderson was dissolved after the Enron scandal because its accounting practices were not thought to be completely independent of Enron. In nonprofits, you can have one person doing the function of a CEO and CFO, but this can be dangerous since it would be so easy to doctor the bookkeeping. By now it should be pretty obvious why the balance of power is so important. There is also the potential problem of groupthink ? that is, people can be trying so hard to get along that they may not do what is actually best for the nonprofit. An example of this is the Bay of Pigs fiasco early in John F. Kennedy?s term. The invasion plans had been developed with Kennedy?s predecessor, and Kennedy sorta? went along. When the Cuban Missile crisis came along, Kennedy secretly appointed his brother Robert to be a devil?s advocate to make sure that all information (not just the pros) were brought out before he made a decision. In terms of a tango community, people need to hold the officers of the nonprofit that they belong to accountable for their decisions. After all, it?s their own resources they are investing that they are trusting the officers to use wisely. But it?s also not just the funds, it?s goodwill (which is actually considered to be an intangible asset owned by the company). What tends to happen is groupthink ? people are not willing to challenge a decision they feel an officer made is bad because they may not want to ?rock the boat?. When problems occur, say a community divides, people tend not to say anything and hope that things work out. I say: be active, say something, rock the boat, treat it with the same seriousness you do with your own investment. Because people will invest simply because they feel it is important to support their community. Whether you realize it or not, there are people in communities who have influence (i.e. community leaders) whether they realize it or not. This is true not matter how big the community is. You may not realize it until a crisis occurs. For this, tango communities might be ill-prepared. But I think I?ve written enough for now. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From keith at totango.net Sun Apr 27 20:34:38 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words Message-ID: <60595.65.93.55.117.1209342878.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> No one has said anything, but it might seem (at least I could understand if it it was thought) that I was pretty strident in my post earlier today. Since I pushed "send" on that one, I have been thinking it would have been good if I had at least provided a tiny bit of background at least in parenthesis. Earlier this week, I had off-group communication with Mr. Floyd B., in which I told him I knew him to be a nice person and did not wish to make personal comments in any way; but yet I was concerned for new people to tango who might read his convoluted posts and think they made sense. Because he is a nice guy, why wouldn't his sincere pontifications seem impressive to the unknowing? Of course anyone can write whatever they want here. But most people will say: In my opinion; perhaps; it seems to me; etc. When someone is always saying Tango must; it is; it should; etc., well ... I retract not a word from my 2 posts asking people to look at the videos and consider the source of all the "wisdom." As I told him personally - they call the credibility of the writer of the maxims into question. I was pleading with him not to keep spreading it thicker. If it keeps coming as if from on high, from someone who demonstrably doesn't know, expressed as infallible "truth," I'll be back saying, B.S. If I may. With your kind indulgence. :-) k From keith at totango.net Sun Apr 27 23:42:48 2008 From: keith at totango.net (Keith Elshaw) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tango-L] people who can and can't Message-ID: <60807.65.93.194.16.1209354168.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Just between us list members, this current credibility of posters insistently stuffing our mail day after day with air-head silliness made me wonder what the deal was with another person who was recently apparently banned from the list. Because one can look at him dancing on videos, too. Seeing someone dance tells you a good deal about how to read their words. Whatever the sins were that got Igor banned, I missed it all somehow. He never bothered my sensibilities. But, if I understand correctly, he was ejected from our midst. Of course, one assumes there must have been reasonable justification ... even if a reader like me didn't notice the offense(s). The Tango-L founders/administrators have always been above reproach. But I was looking at Igor on YouTube, and, like - this is a tango dancer. You know - the kind that you can't be if you are an idiot or ungenerous, etc. Smooth, elegant, musical, all that good stuff. Ha! I'm not suggesting one has to be a good dancer as supported by video evidence to be a poster. Don't put that on me. But, a video is worth a thousand stupid words. As a subtext, we now live in a different world than before YouTube, don't we? The effects are nearly breath-taking. I read that in 2007, YouTube used more bandwidth by itself than the entire internet used in 2000. Ephemeralization in Bucky Fuller's sense. Ever-faster ever-faster change. From tangozen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 00:10:55 2008 From: tangozen at hotmail.com (Tango Zen: Dance Here Now) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:10:55 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] TangoZen blog Message-ID: Friends, I started this blog to share my thoughts and experience from workshops, travels, conversataions, and observations, etc. I also would like to invite you to share experience of TangoZen. TangoZen blog: http://www.tangozen.typepad.com Your comments, suggestions and experience of TangoZen will be greatly appreciated. Chan Park Tango Zen House http://www.TangoZen.com ======================================= TangoZen is tango milonguero. TangoZen is about learning to appreciate traditional tango through disciplines of Zen, which is synonymous to simplicity and clarity of body and mind. http://www.TangoZen.com Also please visit TangoZen blog: http://www.TangoZen.TypePad.com From Crrtango at aol.com Mon Apr 28 09:55:11 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:55:11 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] milonga sequence Message-ID: Richard wrote: Here is a clip from the Argentine film "La voz de mi ciudad" with Mariano Mores and orquesta playing Taquito Militar. There is a seven second dance sequence at 2:53 which is performed in such a different way. Can anyone explain it? Is it merely a film choreography of no great historical value? or is it an example of an obscure or forgotten style? Richard, It might be choreographed a little bit but the sequence is a fairly basic milonga pattern, with him leading her to step in back, then in front, then in back, etc. while he does the same, or even the opposite...sort of like starting ochos but not finishing them before changing direction. I have done that step a few times myself, but they are jumping around and hamming it up a little bit more than normal, which could have been the director, and which could explain why it looks that way. It is actually not very difficult, if you are fairly competent in traspie. (But it is definitely not a beginner step.) I'll show you next time we cross paths at a milonga. I don't think it is style specific other than being traspie, but who knows?...it could have originated in a barrio or by a particular person...and that might be one of the first appearances on film. I have seen it done in a few performances. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From tangopeer at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 10:58:35 2008 From: tangopeer at yahoo.com (Tango For Her) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] weight change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <956265.59701.qm@web52205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Floyd, I haven't had a chance to read your lengthy posts, lately. However, last week, someone posted that your video (seeing you dance) suggests ... whatever ... about your teaching. My comment to that is, "Yeah, right!" How many times have I sat and watched and commented to an advanced follower, "Hey, he looks pretty good.", and get the reply, "Not really. He throws me around." I wrote something similar to that a couple of months ago and someone wrote back saying something like, "It takes advanced skill to be able to see ..." In my opinion, some of the greatest aspects of a leader's dance cannot be seen as well as they can be felt. I didn't respond, last week. But, now, it seems like a good time. Your recent posts, like other posts, are insiteful. And, I agree. A leader can change weight umteen times without leading the follower to change weight. How many times have we leaders done a back, side, front while leading the follower to just take a back step? I agree. The follower's weight change is led. I agree that, in open embrace, newer followers will look down and take extra unled steps. I just wanted to say that I do intend, when I find the time, to go back and read through your posts. They are insiteful. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 11:13:23 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] At one with the earth.. Message-ID: <59825.93175.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Two by Alberto Dassieu ..the Vals was posted before but this is better quality video. I just love the way this guy dances! Someone pointed out his 'soft knees' and I just love the way he seems to be grounded. He seems to be growing from the floor in every move he makes. "Natural" sums it up, for me.. any other comments are welcome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 11:23:44 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] At one with the earth.. Message-ID: <632612.97264.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oops, here's the second one by Alberto and Paulina Can we get up a fan club for this guy? Tangaso is publishing the videos and I just sent them a 'thank you' notice.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-7Scl1l5WM ..an aside: for those curious about life in BsAs, here is a really fine TV station from the city.. you can enlarge the screen and voilla Portenio TV in your living room! http://www.tn.com.ar/ --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 11:30:15 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] people who can and can't Message-ID: <952248.42262.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can we get Igor Polk back posting on Tango-L? How about if he promises not to repeat his infraction(s)? Could we take a vote on it? Would that influence the moderator(s) to re-consider his bann? His off-list emails have been sincere and would have been good Tango L fodder, in my own opinion. Thanks for considering this request in his behalf...I didn't ask him if I could do this..I just thought that I'd give it a shot since the topic popped up on-list. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From dchester at charter.net Mon Apr 28 11:48:27 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:48:27 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance Message-ID: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> Astrid, I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset that people are dancing with beginners. Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to improve. I feel fortunate to be in a community where there are some very good followers who don't become snobs around dancers like me who aren't up to their level. It's funny, but I get the most complaints from intermediate dancers. The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give compliments). I don't know if you realize it, but by driving "mediocre" leaders to dancing with beginners, you are simply increasing the gender imbalance, since it sounds like the beginning followers are getting people to dance with them, so they are more likely to stay with it. What are you doing to encourage the beginning leaders to stay with it, and to get the "mediocre" leaders to improve? David ------------------------------------------ > From: "Astrid" > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance > To: "Brick Robbins" , > > Brick wrote: > > And I'm sure that many of those women thinking the men are not worth > > the time, suck worse than the men they don't want to dance with. > > > And what gives you that idea? It takes a while for a woman to realise that > some of those guys who impressed her in the beginning are actually quite > mediocre compared to the really good ones. You know the type, those who prey > on beginners because they are the only ones they can impress with their > leading? > Whatever, this is news to very few people in here, probably, but the truth > is, on a lucky day, one may discover a new,talented, promising beginner > among the men, while on a bad day, one only sees the same eternal > intermediates who nevertheless may be so full of themselves that they have > closed themselves off to polishing up their weak points, and the gender > imbalance lets them get away with it. From tangospring at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 12:01:41 2008 From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:01:41 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. I lead the follower by moving her body axis. As long as I don't move her axis, I can do all kind of steps with my feet: shift weight, do grapevine, whatever, and my partner will not step (for example, independent shift of weight at 1 min 40 sec and at 4 min 10 sec in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MesNethpYxA ). Your dance style might differ. And its OK. -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com From tangospring at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 12:15:56 2008 From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:15:56 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] how many tangos? Message-ID: I have been talking to someone at recent milonga, and someone has asked me, if I get tired of dancing to the same old tangos. My answer was no: the mood, the partner change the emotional meaning of the dance all the time. Besides that, there are a lot of classic tangos I have never had a chance to dance to yet. I have couple thousands recordings by various tango dance orchestras from the golden age of tango myself -- most of them I had never heard played at milongas. Thinking about his question has piqued my curiosity though. Does anyone know how many arrangements have been recorded by all tango dance orchestras in the period from the late twenties to the fifties? ~20,000; 50,000; 100,000...? -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 12:25:51 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? Message-ID: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "I know many women who have found that special feeling in tango when dancing in the milongas with Argentine men. It?s a feeling of security and being protected while losing oneself in the music. We can forget all our troubles and be present in the moment. No other dance has the feeling of tango." - from Tango Chamuyo (Blog) http://jantango.wordpress.com/ I've heard this same song from so many women that I'm beginning to wonder what's up? I'm beginning to think it must be like; since they are not in their usual environment where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed and where they are under >the very scrutinizing eyes of all their peers and those with whom they compete, gossip >about, etc. etc.... things are naturally more relaxing...and so, they loosen up themselves >and quit being so on-guard all the time...this theory goes for the guys who come back >from BsAs raving about the portenia women, too... --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 12:45:04 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:45:04 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. *Your* weight shifting isn't. Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > I lead the follower by moving her body axis. Which shifts *her* weight (by definition)- QED. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Mon Apr 28 12:51:28 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:51:28 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Community building Message-ID: <20080428164714.6A3A0235274@p3fed1.frb.org> Both Sean and Joe offer interesting perspectives on the inevitable transition a successful tango community must make. The domination of the founding organizer(s) gives way to market determined outcomes as a new generation of organizers and teachers organize new milongas, classes, practicas and workshops. In such a transition, the original organizers may suffer from a sense of shock that new organizers no longer make decisions out of a sense of what builds the community. Instead, the new organizers take a different approach: What is fun to do? What might be successful? The old community understandings of no two milongas on the same weekend give way to two milongas on the same night. The big halloween milonga becomes three smaller milongas, and the big New Year's milonga becomes four smaller milongas. Inevitably, geography and the development of stylistic and philosophical differences leads to some degree of splintering--even if there are no hard feelings. At that point, some of the founding organizers may look around and wonder why things look do different and why the new generation of organizers take what looks like a selfish perspective--rather than a community perspective. That is what a market place looks like. It's natural to be concerned when such changes take place. I remember in the mid-1990s when the Stanford Tango Week was the only tango festival in the United States. Everyone wondered whether the country could support new summer events in Chicago, Columbus and Miami. When the Stanford Tango Week came to an end, it was not because it had lost out to other events, rather it was because the organizer wanted to concentrate on other activities. Now there are more than 50 tango festivals in the United States, and we see the continual entry and exit of tango festivals from the market. Some of these festivals cater to the latest stylistic trends. What do the founding organizers get for their effort? 1) An opportunity to dance in a self-sustaining tango community that no longer requires their organizational effort. (How many times did the founding organizers think or say that they'd just like to quit organizing and become dancers in a city where tango was already established?) 2) The opportunity to be revered as one of the original organizers--if they didn't try to hold onto control too long. 3) If the founding organizers started their community in the mid-1990s or earlier, they were also rewarded with the opportunity to create a network of friends across the country and globe made up of founding organizers in other cities. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) one of the founders of the tango community in Dallas, TX From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Apr 28 12:51:09 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:51:09 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> References: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> Message-ID: <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> > I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are > "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? > I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset > that people are dancing with beginners. Whatever one writes on this list, there will always be somebody who finds a way to twist your words. I never said that tehre is sometihng wrong with dancing with beginners. I also wrote how happy I am when I happen to discover a talented beginner among the men. Note: the accent is on "talented", not on "beginner". > > Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain > for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they > might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to > improve. Sure, blame it all on the women, David. It is our responsibility to make you guys improve, yes? My whole point in what I wrote in the posting you are referring to was that some of the perpetual intermediates among the men are using the easily impressed beginners as an escape way from having to get better in order to receive more respect from the advanced women. Rather than working on their skills, they find the easy way out: do not get better, just find partners who are even worse than you so that you can impress them with your unchanging mediocrity. There will always be some new beginners who do not know you yet... The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give compliments). Of course they do. Unless you try to patronise them. From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 12:55:52 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:55:52 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? In-Reply-To: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48160198.70501@sgi.com> Mario wrote: > since they are not in their usual environment > where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed I don't think that's all there is. It is also undoubtedly true that BsAs. has had quite some time to develop an ethos of tango that different cultures have a hard time to develop or even embrace - certainly the ultra-individualistic and undoubtedly more abrasive USA (where in-your-face assertiveness is seen much more as a virtue). -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Apr 28 13:07:08 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:07:08 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] weight change In-Reply-To: References: <6E9AADF8-612F-4F5D-8082-6D85D9BE03DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CCD38E190D04C34A70999EFA63A04CF@homePC> > The leader may be hopping and skipping all around, doing whatever > necessary to keep up with where he wants the leader and her feet to > be.., but the follower has her own job to do.., and it is not > dependent on her watching or feeling *everything* the leader is doing > in his job. Just the leads he intends to give, from where they must > be taken... The image that comes to mind is one of dancing with a gnome gone crazy... From tangospring at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 13:28:57 2008 From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:28:57 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> References: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> Message-ID: Alexis Cousein wrote: > Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the > follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked > (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. That does not mean that, when I shift my weight, the follower will do so too. Unless I move her axis, of course. My feet, on the other hand, can be decoupled (dissociated, in the common dance instructor parlance) from my chest. Thus "my weight shifting isn't a lead at all". Moving her axis is. Hence the word "balance" in my signature. Leader can also do the opposite: keep the weight on one foot and move her around without shifting his weight from that foot (at 3'37" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_60K2dAvGc ). Osvaldo Cartery does this all the time (I copied his step in this clip). -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com From dchester at charter.net Mon Apr 28 13:41:42 2008 From: dchester at charter.net (David) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> Message-ID: <20080428134142.189XC.21467.root@fepweb02> Astrid, I didn't twist anything. You were the one that used the word "preying", which implied there was something wrong with what they were doing (dancing with beginners). BTW, you still haven't answered how you determined they are preying (are these beginners followers upset that people want to dance with them)? As for getting the men to improve, you are the one whining about it. Thus I suggested that you might consider doing something about it. I couldn't care less if they improve or not. These "mediocre" men have found others to dance with, and seem to be perfectly happy. It would appear, they don't see any value in doing what is needed to dance with you. IMO, if you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've got. David ---- Astrid wrote: > > I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are > > "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? > > I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset > > that people are dancing with beginners. > > Whatever one writes on this list, there will always be somebody who finds a > way to twist your words. I never said that tehre is sometihng wrong with > dancing with beginners. I also wrote how happy I am when I happen to > discover a talented beginner among the men. Note: the accent is on > "talented", not on "beginner". > > > > Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain > > for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they > > might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to > > improve. > > Sure, blame it all on the women, David. It is our responsibility to make you > guys improve, yes? > > My whole point in what I wrote in the posting you are referring to was that > some of the perpetual intermediates among the men are using the easily > impressed beginners as an escape way from having to get better in order to > receive more respect from the advanced women. Rather than working on their > skills, they find the easy way out: do not get better, just find partners > who are even worse than you so that you can impress them with your > unchanging mediocrity. There will always be some new beginners who do not > know you yet... > > The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask > for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give > compliments). > > Of course they do. Unless you try to patronise them. > > From stermitz at tango.org Mon Apr 28 13:54:02 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:54:02 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? In-Reply-To: <48160198.70501@sgi.com> References: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48160198.70501@sgi.com> Message-ID: <2F145B57-AAAF-412D-80EC-916F3400382E@tango.org> > I don't think that's all there is. It is also undoubtedly true that > BsAs. has > had quite some time to develop an ethos of tango that different > cultures have > a hard time to develop or even embrace - certainly the ultra- > individualistic > and undoubtedly more abrasive USA (where in-your-face assertiveness > is seen > much more as a virtue). WTF? You've been watching too much US television and too many of our Conservative politicians. In the cultural sense, individual N. Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. We have other negative stereotypes that I'm willing to admit to over beers. Too much pseudo-self-esteem, perhaps. Argentine culture has some common stereotypes as well. Across Latin America, they tell jokes about it, hell, even Argentines repeat these same jokes. Anyway, you will find that on the individual level, people are pretty warm and friendly, no matter what the culture. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 13:56:18 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: <556593.43022.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Oleh, and thanks for the video description.... I love it! ..and is that the weight change (you changing wt. while moving the follow) in seconds 45-46 of the video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_60K2dAvGc ..this definately adds to my appreciation/understanding of this important move. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 14:16:29 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:16:29 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> References: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> Message-ID: <4816147D.3040304@sgi.com> Astrid wrote: > It is our responsibility to make you > guys improve, yes? > Well, if there aren't enough good leaders you can either foster their growth or wait until they come creeping out of the woodwork. Or you can move, of course ;). I've *taught* my dance partner that it's also her responsibility to make me improve - by refusing to accept anything that doesn't feel right and to *always* tell me when something doesn't feel right. I couldn't improve without her. It's our responsibility to make the other {guy,girl} improve, yes. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From stermitz at tango.org Mon Apr 28 14:17:28 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:17:28 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. > > I lead the follower by moving her body axis. > > As long as I don't move her axis, I can do all kind of steps with my > feet: shift weight, do grapevine, whatever, and my partner will not > step ... > > Your dance style might differ. And its OK. > -- > Oleh Kovalchuke > Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm > http://tangospring.com Oleh also points out that you can disassociate your legs from your body, which opens up a whole bunch of possibilities to prevent or ask for a weight change. Of course, there are multiple methods of causing her to change weight, from coarse to sublime: - leader changes weight - follower steps on the slow beat unless prevented - leader shifts axis - leader lifts shoulder (uggh!) - leader bends axis - leader settles hips - leader pushes hips out - leader rotates (spirals) - leader rotates (pivots) - leader lifts and set down follower with arm - leader uses tummy to lift and set down - leader uses hands to move follower The good leader uses multiple techniques at the same time, which can make the lead extremely subtle, yet extremely clear. Some of the above techniques could feel really bad if too large or in isolation, but as part of the whole gestalt of "weight change", they are all viable or useful depending on the situation. I think the only one I really don't use is the shoulder lift or the bending axis. In my tango I don't like an axis that buckles. Some tango dancers do use movement ideas from swing dancing, which includes a bending axis. FOOTFALLS As for the thought that a good follower or leader can always feel their partner's footsteps. An excellent dancer can soften the weight change and maintain a stable enough axis that their partner can't feel it. This is difficult at the highest levels, but good axis control and quality of weight change is a characteristic of all the great dancers I know. As for the footfall itself... that deserves a world of technique in itself. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 14:23:04 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:23:04 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> Message-ID: <48161608.6000006@sgi.com> Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > Alexis Cousein wrote: > >> Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the >> follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked >> (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; by definition: a weight change means moving your centre of gravity relative to your support points, and if the frame is locked, by definition you can't have one person doing it and the other not. Even in close embrace (and fully apilado), you'd be surprised at the number of degrees of freedom there still are. Well, actually, you wouldn't, given that you seem to be able to shift your weight without shifting that of your partner. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp Mon Apr 28 14:30:40 2008 From: astrid at ruby.plala.or.jp (Astrid) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:30:40 +0900 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <4816147D.3040304@sgi.com> References: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> <4816147D.3040304@sgi.com> Message-ID: > I've *taught* my dance partner that it's also her responsibility to > make me improve - by refusing to accept anything that doesn't feel > right and to *always* tell me when something doesn't feel right. > Yes, but that is your dance partner. The men who ask a woman to dance at a milonga do not usually want to be told anything. If the woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% satisfied and deeply impressed with his dancing skills, the usual pattern is that the man will go find someone more easily impressed and gloat in front of the one who dared to think otherwise. The ones who have a little more humility are the ones that have the stuff to become better dancers, because improving takes a certain amount of patience and receptivity. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Mon Apr 28 14:34:54 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:34:54 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with Beginners Message-ID: <20080428183041.6FD14235539@p3fed1.frb.org> I think it is fairly common in tango communities to see some men and some women grab beginners to dance with them. In some cases, those doing the grabbing may be among the less popular dancers in their own group who are taking advantage of newcomers. In other cases, people are trying out the beginners to see whether they have the aptitude (a basic set of movement/music/balance skills) to make it worth investing the time. Those lacking the aptitude are quickly dropped. Newcomers may be preferred to those long-time members of the community who have long demonstrated a lack of compatibilty in dancingl. Without dancing with someone, it may be difficult to actually know how comfortable it is to dance with someone. You can only see how they look. With best regards, Steve From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 14:41:05 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:41:05 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? In-Reply-To: <2F145B57-AAAF-412D-80EC-916F3400382E@tango.org> References: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48160198.70501@sgi.com> <2F145B57-AAAF-412D-80EC-916F3400382E@tango.org> Message-ID: <48161A41.6000408@sgi.com> Tom Stermitz wrote: > You've been watching too much US television and too many of our > Conservative politicians. Uhm - I happen to work for a US based company, you know. I *am* familiar with more than the stereotypes. > In the cultural sense, individual N. > Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. would be. For one thing, they're much less afraid of losing face, which fosters a more direct method of communication (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). I'm not judging anyone - just pointing out that it's natural for someone to travel to somewhere else to be surprised at how culture may influence patterns of behaviour and ways of dancing - and to enjoy some of the differences. It's not just *they* that cast away their inhibitions; there really *is* something different in the air. The grass is indeed a different kind of green on the other side. > Anyway, you will find that on the individual level, people are pretty > warm and friendly, no matter what the culture. Of course (though you'd hardly guess from reading tango-l, which seems to regularly illustrate Poe's Law very well -- but of course, people are rarely the fire-breathing dragons they are online?;) ). The way they dance around each other in the social dance, though, isn't exactly the same in all cultures (which explains the plural). -- ?Except me, of course. Fourth man: "I am a gorilla." -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From sopelote at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 14:42:46 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Unreasonable, illogical Tango? ..and the Tango nerds? Message-ID: <777562.89691.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> '4. The essence of TangoZen is; ..." that there is something beyond logic and reasoning in Tango.'' - From the new TangoZen blog This is one hell of a good point..it is where my focus is....it is where all revolution lay. If this blog can deliver on it's point #4...then, I'm reading it always! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 14:51:25 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:51:25 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: References: <20080428114827.4YJK9.15932.root@fepweb02> <0494CD7EAAED4B1BA05E7875896BE22B@homePC> <4816147D.3040304@sgi.com> Message-ID: <48161CAD.6020602@sgi.com> Astrid wrote: > If the woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% > satisfied and deeply impressed with his dancing skills, the usual > pattern is that the man will go find someone more easily impressed and > gloat in front of the one who dared to think otherwise. Well, they're in dire need of an attitude change if they want to improve - but who will teach them? Certainly not the more easily impressed followers. I know there are bound to be some incorrigible ones that aren't the Right Stuff, but if there are too many men with that attitude, some of them probably don't know any better and just mimic their peer leaders (and will do so until someone manage to change that attitude little by little). I also happen to think it all depends on exactly how a woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% satisfied. Porte?as have a knack at making you understand without telling you. Hitting someone else with The Cluebat, sadly, is usually not something that works, especially not when egos can be bruised easily. It doesn't even work with me (except when someone *hands* me the cluebat, after which I can retreat and hit myself with it in private ;) ). -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From stermitz at tango.org Mon Apr 28 14:53:55 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:53:55 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? In-Reply-To: <48161A41.6000408@sgi.com> References: <201413.85195.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48160198.70501@sgi.com> <2F145B57-AAAF-412D-80EC-916F3400382E@tango.org> <48161A41.6000408@sgi.com> Message-ID: <8599CA70-E9CD-4D56-8A8E-69D54BFC96E0@tango.org> Off topic, off list. Look, I'm not thin skinned, and I'm not sensitive about criticism of my country. There's plenty to criticize; I'll be first, but again over beers, not in email, which never is a good forum for solving problems. I'm just surprised at your stereotypes. Working for a go-getter US high-tech company might not present you with many "typical" americans. I'm imagining the CEO of my last company storming into your office... but I digress. Speaking of stereotype, are you saying that N. Americans (Canadians too?) are aggressive, while Argentines are conflict averse? On Apr 28, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Alexis Cousein wrote: > Tom Stermitz wrote: >> You've been watching too much US television and too many of our >> Conservative politicians. > > Uhm - I happen to work for a US based company, you know. I *am* > familiar with more than the stereotypes. > >> In the cultural sense, individual N. >> Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. > > Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. > would be. For one thing, they're much less afraid of losing > face, which fosters a more direct method of communication > (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 14:57:58 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Gods or Mortals in BsAs Message-ID: <961749.10908.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oh Mario, it is not that the women change, it is that the men, the milongas, the ambiance in BsAs are different! It begins when I walk in the door of the milonga and am greeted with a kiss by the organizor who says, "Such a long time, I have been thinking it was time to see you again". Then the waiter, remembering my preference from a year ago, escorts me to my favorite table. The DJ nods to me from his booth and makes a mental note that the blonde woman loves tango valzes and he will play an extra one or two in a tanda if he sees me on the floor. And the women nearby rise to greet me with a kiss when I sit down. So you see, before I ever step out on the floor, I feel valued and cared for and appreciated. Then the dancing with the lovely custom of the cabeceo so that I never am put in the awkward position of having to decline a dance with someone or dance when I am too tired or hot. Once a partner is selected, he greets me with a kiss and some lovely complimentary words which immediately make me feel adored and beautiful. He remembers me, my name, where I am from, asks how long I will stay. (And on my last day he will make an effort to come to the milonga "for our last dance" because he remembers my departure day. Then we dance. WE do not discuss weight changes or heel leads or style or what is best an open or close embrace. I cannot imagine EVER talking about dancing with any of these men except to comment on the music or the floor or the weather ( between tandas). And they never criticize - they are always encouraging and complimentary and express gratitude and amazement when I am able to follow something tricky and they show off for their friends and tell them how well I dance, too. If, at the end of the tanda, I do what my mama always taught me and say, "thank you", they are likely to reply "It is I who should thank you for the honor of letting me dance with such a divine, elegant, yadda yadda woman." And perhaps, Mario, I am a different woman in Buenos Aires but who has the magic wand? Nancy --- On Mon, 4/28/08, Mario wrote: > From: Mario > Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? > To: tango-l at mit.edu > Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 12:25 PM > "I know many women who have found that special feeling > in tango when dancing in the milongas with Argentine men. > It?s a feeling of security and being protected while > losing oneself in the music. We can forget all our troubles > and be present in the moment. No other dance has the feeling > of tango." > - from Tango Chamuyo (Blog) > http://jantango.wordpress.com/ > > I've heard this same song from so many women that > I'm beginning to wonder what's up? > I'm beginning to think it must be like; since they > are not in their usual environment > where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed > and where they are under >the very scrutinizing eyes of > all their peers and those with whom they compete, gossip > >about, etc. etc.... things are naturally more > relaxing...and so, they loosen up themselves >and quit > being so on-guard all the time...this theory goes for the > guys who come back >from BsAs raving about the portenia > women, too... > > > ---- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From tangospring at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 15:08:07 2008 From: tangospring at gmail.com (Oleh Kovalchuke) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:08:07 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: <48161608.6000006@sgi.com> References: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> <48161608.6000006@sgi.com> Message-ID: > > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. > > > > B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). While it might be true statement in the way you perceive close embrace dancing, I was writing from experience about my own dancing style (that is why I used that adjective in the sentence). My embrace begins at chest level, it is always locked (with good followers). Apparently your style is different, and it's OK. > If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible > for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none... etc. I do it all the time, when I do the cross, and the follower doesn't. Thousands of dancers are doing that as well. If I were to see your video, I might be able to point out to you, when you are doing this. -- Oleh Kovalchuke, not surprised Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Alexis Cousein wrote: > Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > > Alexis Cousein wrote: > > > > > > > Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the > > > follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked > > > (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > > > > > > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. > > > > B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). > > If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible > for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; > by definition: a weight change means moving your centre of gravity > relative to your support points, and if the frame is locked, by > definition you can't have one person doing it and the other not. > > Even in close embrace (and fully apilado), you'd be surprised at the > number of degrees of freedom there still are. Well, actually, you > wouldn't, given that you seem to be able to shift your weight without > shifting that of your partner. > > > > > -- > Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com > Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics > -- > > > From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Mon Apr 28 15:15:12 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:15:12 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Community building Message-ID: <20080428191100.5885B235755@p3fed1.frb.org> Hi Ron: Oops! I should have mentioned Ron rather than Joe in my previous post about community building. I was writing in response to Ron's and Sean's posts about community building. Let me clarify a few points: What Ron described is happening in many U.S. cities--the seeming proliferation of tango activities without a comensurate growth in community size, with the consequence smaller and smaller attendance at any given event. Milongas are actually among the easiest of these activities to organize and often the first to become what some might regard as too plentiful. In a city like Dallas, where the new things are always considered attractive, milongas in stable venues quite often take a back seat to new milongas in what are likely to prove unstable venues--restaurants. Restaurants that have a dance floor and sound system but are lacking customers will quite often accomodate what promises to be a large crowd for for dinner and dancing. The large turnout indicates a success to the organizer. The feeling of success lasts until the restaurant goes out of business or finds out that tango dancers don't drink or eat very much. (One or the other always happens. No successful restaurant will continue to accomodate a group that eat and drinks so little.) In the meantime, the established milongas in venues that have been stable (because the owners/organizers know what to expect from milongas) suffer from poor attendance and are in danger of being discontinued for lack of income. Similar occurrences arise with workshops. In the mid- to late 1990s, people in Texas would check with organizers in other Texas cities to make sure they weren't organizing a workshops too close together in time in the three cities that then had active tango communities--Austin, Dallas and Houston. By 2001, however, newly emerging organizers in Dallas didn't even bother to consider schedules in their own city before scheduling workshops. In a community that was then less than 100 active dancers, we saw three workshops shoehorned into a six-week period with the new organizer jumping into the middle of two already scheduled workshops. A little bit later the same year, we saw two workshops on the same weekend, with the new organizer saying that if she had to consider existing events that she would be excluded from organizing. Needless to say, all of these workshops suffered from diminished attendance. After these scheduling conflicts, those of us that had long-standing records of organizing workshops quit doing so. We weren't really making money on these workshops in the first place and didn't want to take losses for the inability to meet minimums. I'm not justifying these market forces. I'm just saying that the dynamics in a community change as it grows and makes a transition to market determined outcomes. Unless one wants to make a living at tango--something that I decided didn't suit me--what remains for founding organizers is to accept or lament the changes for what they are or aren't. I'm doing a little of both, but I'm leaning toward acceptance rather than lament. With best regards, Steve From al at sgi.com Mon Apr 28 15:52:35 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:52:35 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: <4815FF10.20805@sgi.com> <48161608.6000006@sgi.com> Message-ID: <48162B03.7090509@sgi.com> Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: >>> My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. >>> >> B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). > > While it might be true statement in the way you perceive close embrace > dancing, I was writing from experience about my own dancing style > (that is why I used that adjective in the sentence). My embrace begins > at chest level, it is always locked (with good followers). I suspect we're in violent agreement but for the definition of "locked" (which I don't take to just mean "joined"). So I'll let the matter rest. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From Crrtango at aol.com Mon Apr 28 16:18:44 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:18:44 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Community building Message-ID: Stephen wrote: <<>> We have had this same problem in NYC for many years but in spite of the diluted scene, the tango community has grown to fill in the spaces somewhat. We now have many milongas every week and new workshops on almost a weekly basis and some for extended stays...but we also ahve a very large community. We also attract a lot of good people and many Argentines pass through here and live here. Even in the beginning days when the milonga of Danel and Maria was the only dance in town, there was a community of older expat Argentines here who would show up every week. But I would caution that NYC is not your typical city in this regard. There are still new venues that open here, and just as many soon close. However one venue is consistent with other cities...the restaurant that has a slow night (or has low attendance in general) that expects to bring in a tango crowd to bolster its business. After an initial rush they usually close. A few have survived but as Stephen said, tango dancers do not spend money on food and liquor and often the restaurant will drop the tango night, especially if business picks up. One or two have survived here, notably Lafayette Grill which also has tango now on other nights (but it is an exception), but the floor is a little small and the level of dancing is mixed. Others hang in but usually with a small crowd. I have personally seen maybe twenty "restaurant milongas" come and go. Most of the people who run the milongas have resigned themselves to making only a certain amount of money and no more...no one makes a big profit. Most of the people who run the milongas have other income or are involved in other milongas and workshops. As Danel once said to me: Nobody got rich from tango, except Francisco Canaro. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 19:40:21 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words Message-ID: <595147.78209.qm@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Keith Elshaw wrote; <<<<< Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one of those terminal intermediates who "prey" on the beginners. I dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never dance with the intermediate follows. When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, and then the dance is fine. The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and we have a fine dance. But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a lead, and/or.... But, since they know that I am only an intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall looking hopefully out at the floor. Cheers D. David Thorn _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 From nina at earthnet.net Mon Apr 28 20:46:47 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:46:47 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080428182243.01b22838@earthnet.net> David, Sad, sad... this is very sad. :) You dance with people because of their level of dance?! beginner or advanced?! And what if they have bad breath, look desperate, and have nothing intresting to say? What if you say "axis" to a woman, and she smiles and says "yes, of course", but is thinking "this guy is crazy, I have no idea what he is talking about"? The sad part is when people dance with people only because of what they perceive the other person's dancing level to be. Once, in ancient times, I danced with a man who, as I recall, may not have been a great dancer (but I can't be sure). While we danced, he was telling me hillarious jokes in my ear. I was hurting from laughter. I laughted at those jokes for years. You can teach someone to find his/her axis (and even someone else's :), and whatever else, but you cannot teach them to be witty and entertaining. On a serious note, dancers hold real power to mold other dancers. A man who is a fabulous dancer, can teach a woman, any woman, almost any basic technical element non-verbally, while simply dancing with her. But why would we do that? Social duty? Not at all. Instead, more from a recognition that people are much more than their dancing abilities, and that it may be a mistake to dance with a proficiency level instead of a person. Best, Nina At 05:59 PM 4/28/2008, David Thorn wrote: >Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender >imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one >of those terminal intermediates who "prey" on the beginners. I >dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never >dance with the intermediate follows. > >When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping >my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance >unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or >to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or >whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, >and then the dance is fine. > >The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but >certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I >can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They >can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and >no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and >we have a fine dance. > >But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least >very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a >lead, and/or.... But, since they know that I am only an >intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even >regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not >clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. > >Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I >can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad >about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall >looking hopefully out at the floor. > >Cheers > >D. David Thorn > >_________________________________________________________________ >Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. >Get in the game. >http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From nina at earthnet.net Mon Apr 28 21:09:54 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:09:54 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080428185733.01af4870@earthnet.net> I forgot to mention something that was the reason that I wrote the post in the first place - any one dancer, a man or a woman, needs only one other dancer at any moment that he/she would like to dance. It is ot a requirement that all other people in the room are dancin. So gender balance/imbalance is irrelevant. It is not how many are there that is important, but rather who is there. If a woman wants to dance with a particular man, and he is busy dancing with someone else, he is not available and it is irrelevant whether there are other men and that there may be gender balance. That particular man is not available for that particular tanda. Instead dancing with whomever, and spend the precious music while thinking "I wish I was dancing with the other one", it might be better to sit. And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a milonga in BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say "There is nobody here to dance with!". Nina From ningle_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 21:20:40 2008 From: ningle_2000 at yahoo.com (NANCY) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080428185733.01af4870@earthnet.net> Message-ID: <816977.53510.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/28/08, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > > And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a > milonga in > BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say > "There is > nobody here to dance with!". Ah yes! The 'I have nothing to wear' closet. N ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From nina at earthnet.net Mon Apr 28 21:39:12 2008 From: nina at earthnet.net (Nina Pesochinsky) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:39:12 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] gender imbalance In-Reply-To: <816977.53510.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.1.20080428185733.01af4870@earthnet.net> <816977.53510.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080428193756.01b1be38@earthnet.net> Or, "I can't find anything to wear in your closet". At 07:20 PM 4/28/2008, NANCY wrote: >Ah yes! The 'I have nothing to wear' closet. > >N > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Be a better friend, newshound, and >know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it >now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >_______________________________________________ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L at mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l From Jantango at feedback.net.ar Mon Apr 28 22:34:22 2008 From: Jantango at feedback.net.ar (Janis Kenyon) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:34:22 -0300 Subject: [Tango-L] Maria Nieves Rego -- illustrious citizen of Buenos Aires Message-ID: <001501c8a9a1$ecad5370$908f3dc8@JANIS> This afternoon, at a ceremony in the Salon Dorado of the city legislature, Maria Nieves Rego was honored as an illustrious citizen of Buenos Aires. We viewed a video of Maria dancing on stage with Juan Carlos Copes to Quejas de Bandoneon. In her remarks, Maria said she was born to dance and expressed her gratitude to Juan Carlos Copes, her partner of 40 years. She danced a tango with several milongueros whom she summoned from the audience including Julio Duplaa and Armando Giacovelli. Maria began dancing at the age of 14 and didn't hesitate to mention that she is 73. From buffmilonguera at aol.com Mon Apr 28 23:01:26 2008 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:01:26 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words In-Reply-To: <595147.78209.qm@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <595147.78209.qm@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA77BC7175C8F1-173C-84CB@webmail-ne12.sysops.aol.com> I honestly have resisted being part of these particular threads - but I really do want anyone and everyone passing even reasonably near Buffalo to come dance with us. I generally have about 30 folks at my regular monthly milonga - and we're not too "gender imbalanced" :). When I have visiting instructors, I usually "sell" something like 50-55 sessions (includes repeaters who are taking more than 1 workshop), and I usually, not always, fill as many privates as we can schedule. I've had almost 60 people for two special "gala" milongas/dinner dances. I have even been able to get some tv coverage for some of our events and a feature in a local glossy magazine is being done. I am also happy to say that, through our events, we have raised money to repair a public art installation named, appropriately enough, the Tango Dancers. We have people aged early 20s to 80s - with varying degrees of experience and different backgrounds - salsa, ballroom, swing and, of course, our tango purists :). I am actually proud of the fact that, with very, very little exception, everyone dances with everyone and I especially love the care that most of our leaders, and followers, take to make sure any "newbies" get a chance to dance - even if it's just a walk around the floor. There is a young man who does a monthly Saturday night milonga, and he also gets a lot of folks - they tend to be the younger dancers, but not exclusively. He is more traditional in his play-list, etc. which is great. He does a lot of demonstrations in the community which helps bring folks in - esp. people from the local salsa crowd and the University. As my monthly weeknight dance tends to serve as an "entry point' for folks who may not have much, if any, dance experience - I tend to play a little more alternative tango and I throw in some latin and swing - which a lot of folks like - I know there may be a lot of folks who would "disapprove," but almost everyone gets on the floor for these "breaks" - so I must be doing something right :). If any one finds themselves anywhere near Buffalo - let me know, I'll try to find you places to dance, to stay and to make new friends. :) Barbra Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: Michael Figart II To: tango-l at mit.edu Sent: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 7:40 pm Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words Keith Elshaw wrote; <<<<< Alex wrote: >> In the cultural sense, individual N. >> Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. > > Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. > would be. For one thing, *they're much less afraid of losing > face, which fosters a more direct method of communication > (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). Which ones are *"they" in this statement, the portenos or the Americans? (it has not been my experience that either ones are like that) From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 29 00:23:20 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:23:20 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words In-Reply-To: <60595.65.93.55.117.1209342878.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> References: <60595.65.93.55.117.1209342878.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: Keith... Last week my reponse went only to you. A failing I have, not sending to 'all'. This one I will be careful to do right. You said a lot of things privately about 'the great unwashed'.. Being 'protective' of them and all. How did come to be their guardian? To keep them from hearing ideas other than yours? I know if I were a newbie coming to Tango L, I would not like knowing there were a small group of people, and I emphasize the word small, who were trying to keep them from hearing all sides of a Tango issue. That some people would eliminate their competition... To excommunicate them from 'their church' so to speak? What *should* happen is for people to explain what exactly is wrong with anything I've said., instead of just accusing me of being wrong in general. I'm against teaching patterns to followers, not physically forcing ladies into position, keeping Tango improv and to not mechanize it. I gave you one person by name, whom I'm sure you know, who teaches leaders to get their right fingers behind the ladies left shoulder blade and pull, when she's to be brought around to his right. That's disgusting. Is that what you support? People learning to 'fake' Tango. To look like they're doing it but not understanding a single thing on how to dance it..? You and I started about the same time in the Tango resurgence. I tried then to grow Tango in WNY by bringing in Thomas and Heidi.., Mataj and Nina and then Mataj and Robinn from Ithaca. A small group formed but basically it was too early for Tango in Buffalo. Scoliosis then took my wife out of the picture. So while you and others were perfecting your 'smooth' dancing.., I spent nearly ten years in a Tango wasteland studying what was behind it all... Without (for the most part) being able to dance it myself. But that did not stop the understand of it. I concentrated on the origins and concepts. How and why it came about. I bought and watched current and historical movies.., read books, listened to the music, bought instructional videos, went to workshops, kept in touch with Mataj and others all during my non-dancing era. My last video from Mataj was a stage show with him and Rina, Facudo and Kelly, et al. in 2001. All this time and since I have been working to tie off loose ends left by various instructors. I found that many had been trying to 'fool' me. :-/ I called it 'learning Tango from the inside out'. So while you think smooth is the answer.., I think 'understanding' is more so. Those who don't like what I say, need to point out exactly what it is they don't like. I would welcome that. Please do. Put your expertise into words as I've done. Stop the smoke of childish one liners, name calling like stupid and idiot. *That* should get *you* banned from the list, eh? It would do Tango and the L a lot more good.. Just tell me and others what you think is wrong. Perhaps you're upset because I'm not 'humble' enough? :-) That I don't say that everyone else is right too? Cause they're just not, you know? Some teach patterns to followers.., don't they? How can that be right? Tell me. Anyone is welcome to contradict what I say. But don't try pointing to early-on videos as proof of imcompetance? Ha! Those done at the very beginning of Tango here in WNY that I'm in fact very proud of... Those that were done with students of mine at 2, 5, and 9 months experience.., on their first time alone in the middle of a big floor with 400 people watching them. We were not trying to 'connect' with each other.., I can assure you. One follower's lips were quivering. But we did do what we wanted to do. To demo some slow show Tango to the 'great unwashed' I guess you call them. We were happy to get through it, and very well too, I must say. Happy to leave the hot stuff to Daniel Trenner and Anne Sophie Vile later that night.. So here are the videos referred to. At Five Months. http://www.buffalotango.com/html/video_-_knox_1.html Two vids of Karen and I. At Nine Months. http://www.buffalotango.com/html/video_-_knox_2.html Two vids of Karen and I. One vid of Sarah and I. I do admit to being dragged out by that third demo... I was running the whole event too... But do notice that the ladies knew exactly where and when to touch their feet down, all by themselves. Without the need for a ballrom 'frame' either. They just 'followed' my leads. So please say more than 'you know what's best for everyone'. Stop trying to censor other people's opinions. Stop calling 4th grade names. Stop the one liners. Grow up. Tango on.... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 29 00:26:45 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:26:45 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] people who can and can't In-Reply-To: <952248.42262.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <952248.42262.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6q8d141fa3dfefu2b8pdpl5urr7jr2pndk@4ax.com> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:30:15 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Can we get Igor Polk back posting on Tango-L? > How about if he promises not to repeat his infraction(s)? > Could we take a vote on it? Would that influence the moderator(s) > to re-consider his bann? > His off-list emails have been sincere and would have been > good Tango L fodder, in my own opinion. > Thanks for considering this request in his behalf...I didn't ask him > if I could do this..I just thought that I'd give it a shot since the > topic popped up on-list. I'd like to second that... Igor is the only person on the L who had a 'real' problem with my online lessons when I first mentioned them here a year ago... Some others just didn't like that I seemed to be anti-ballroom. I'm not of course.., but I think they were taking it personally because I'm against using ballroom *methods* to teach Tango. :-/ Igor had a complaint on my use of the term 'heavy lead'. I was talking about the heavy 'physical' push and pull that many instructors teach and many leaders do to their partners. It was a reasonable, although somewhat belabored , complaint. I did understand what he was saying. Which was in fact that to him a 'heavy lead' meant the use of emphasis in the giving of true Tango leads. Simultaneous leads and the energy imparted to them. So I made the necessary clarification to the online lessons. It's good to get *constructive* criticism you know? :-) Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 29 00:30:47 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:30:47 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: References: <350835.47695.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6s8d14594cp0tdsob9bgm2q0sv5djd5md7@4ax.com> Now here's something we can agree on Chris... I started holding Tango dances in mid summer 05. Buffalo was a tango wasteland prior to that. Within a year we brought about many workshops with imported instructors, and a couple of fairly major productions. Not to mention the weekly dances. A few Tangueros came out of the woodwork for that first dance and gave the incentive to carry on. The crowd continued to grow very nicely and we soon topped fifty at a dance... In July of 06 we held our first, 3 day weekend Tango Festival. I had considered forming a 'non profit' club at one time but really could not see the need for it... This isn't a business... It's people enjoying something they love doing. Then a 'people organizing' tanguera started doing her thing... Taking the people to a lot of ballroom venues, sporatic venues.., weird venues. The crowd became tired and unfocused. The crowd stopped growing at the weekly milonga. I became discouraged and stopped holding them... To be clear, we weren't supporting the place any more so it closed on our night for a couple of months. When it reopened in the fall, he didn't care if we came back, and neither did I. Now there is a government recognized non profit club here, run by the people organizer..., that many belong to. And they've buried themselves in a yahoo casket. The leader rules the roost. Sells T-shirts, charges for previously free dances, has worked her way into a art based political position, possibily from her 'organizational skills' and contacts.., and there is very little social Tango dancing going on. Tango should be free... Floyd On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:07 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >> Actually, Chris, there are quite a number of nonprofits with elected >> officials (presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, treasurers) who >> are all community leaders. Their memberships have elected them to >> handle the affairs of the club. > >Um, that's not a community - it what comes from /lack/ of community. > >Real tango communities don't have so-called community leaders, and it >follows that so-called community leaders don't have real tango >communities... > >...hence their need to form clubs, hold elections and bestow >important-sounding titles upon one another. You can tell a real tango >dance community by the fact people would rather dance. ;) Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From s.augustine at ieee.org Tue Apr 29 00:56:13 2008 From: s.augustine at ieee.org (Skip Augustine) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:56:13 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] Caveat emptor: Nigerian scammers Message-ID: <20080429045533.KKZT15333.mta11.adelphia.net@POOZ5> Heads up to anyone looking online for apartments in Buenos Aires. The Nigerian scammers have even invaded that area of online commerce. My wife is looking for one and a Craigslist ad she responded to turned out to be one of these scams. It was reasonably easy to recognize, but if you don't have your skeptic hat on, you might not realize it until it is too late. Just a warning...caveat emptor. Here is a link to one of many sites that have information on how to recognize and avoid these kinds of frauds: http://www.fraudaid.com/ScamSpeak/Nigerian/index.htm Skip A. From buffmilonguera at aol.com Tue Apr 29 01:10:15 2008 From: buffmilonguera at aol.com (buffmilonguera@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:10:15 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies In-Reply-To: <6s8d14594cp0tdsob9bgm2q0sv5djd5md7@4ax.com> References: <350835.47695.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <6s8d14594cp0tdsob9bgm2q0sv5djd5md7@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8CA77CE70ADB125-838-61D2@webmail-nf07.sim.aol.com> btw - my monthly milonga is, right now, the only one that is free and open to the public...... I'm just sayin' :) barbra Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks! From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 02:09:46 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <988876.15478.qm@web55311.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Floyd Baker wrote: I spent nearly ten years in a Tango wasteland studying what was behind it all... Without (for the most part) being able to dance it myself. But that did not stop the understand of it. I concentrated on the origins and concepts. How and why it came about. I bought and watched current and historical movies.., read books, listened to the music, bought instructional videos, went to workshops, kept in touch with Mataj and others all during my non-dancing era. --- I wonder, if one were to substitute "Martial Arts" for "tango" in the above paragraph, whether the writer would feel qualified to teach martial arts. If he did, and Chuck Noris criticized his teaching, do you suppose the writer would challenge him to a sparring match? Anyone may sign up for and post any B.S. they want to this list. But the tango world is tiny. There is at most one degree of separation between any of us who post regularly. It is easy to get background info on any of us. I urge those of you reading who are new to the community and don't know the writers in person to talk to someone who has danced with the author before you buy a bunch of B.S. in a well crafted package. I was shocked and saddened by TangoforHer's endorsement of Floyd over Keith Elshaw. If there are any others out there who don't know Keith Elshaw's qualifications, I offer this endorsement: If Keith ever disagrees with me on any aspect of tango, you may safely assume that he is right and I am wrong. I've often said that there are no experts on this list. But Keith is probably closer to that than the rest of us. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 03:30:08 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: <262796.65462.qm@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alexis wrote; <<<<<>>>>>>>. Jeez, Alexis; that's exactly what many here are saying; that unless you "disguise" it, or make it "invisible", the follower will change weight also. Oleh made his case very well; at least I understood exactly what he was saying, and it seems to be exactly what he meant. And then you go introduce this "locked frame" crap, and confuse a bunch of people on this list. I guess what you're really meaning is "leader and follower moving in exact mirror images"....jeezus, what the 'ell made you come up with this? All I can think of is that you wanted to look like a big dawg, so you throw up your straw, ("nobody is claiming...."), and attack one who presented a good explanation of this "phenomenon". So who died and made you King? Was there some kind of proclamation that I missed? To everybody else; a leader can change feet with or without changing the feet of the follower. Sometimes the follower can really feel it....sometimes not. If a leader keeps the body of the follower in a position so that it would be uncomfortable to change her weight to the other foot, she should not change. If he moves his follower's position so that she should, or must, change feet to keep her axis comfortable, then she should change feet. It really is that simple. And..I've got to expand this a bit, so I'll start another posting....."how much weight?" Regards, Michael (Houston) Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:45:04 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein Subject: Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') To: Oleh Kovalchuke Cc: tango-l at mit.edu Message-ID: <4815FF10.20805 at sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. *Your* weight shifting isn't. Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > I lead the follower by moving her body axis. Which shifts *her* weight (by definition)- QED. From febaker at buffalotango.com Tue Apr 29 03:54:06 2008 From: febaker at buffalotango.com (Floyd Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:54:06 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words In-Reply-To: <8CA77BC7175C8F1-173C-84CB@webmail-ne12.sysops.aol.com> References: <595147.78209.qm@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CA77BC7175C8F1-173C-84CB@webmail-ne12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Here's my version of the above...: There are Milongas once a month now, for the past few months.., in the same place I used to hold them every week. They now draw 30 monthly, where we were getting 40 and 50 weekly, until the 'politics' started. Someone simply turned the electric back on to the Tango Dancers neon sign and, voila, most of it worked. Nothing was really 'repaired'. (Unless something has happened in the last couple of weeks. But I don't believe so.) Visiting Tango instructors are quite often the same ballroom sponsored and title awarded "A/Tango Champions"... What are A/T 'champions'? Our Tango community has been converted back to taking anything that's available dance wise. The way it was before Tango started to grow here. And just for the record...: I never tried to make money with efforts to grow Tango... I never charged for any of the 125 or so dances I held.., and it was a *lot* of work... Everything was for Tango. It is my hobby and everyone should expect to pay for 'hobbies'. So it was then free for everyone who partook of my hobby. The workshop charges went to the instructors and I covered some of their additional expenses on my own. Car rental, air fare, etc. to make the workshop prices lower. When I provided the festival bus last summer, I ate half the cost of the bus so people would have what I considered a 'reasonable' ticket price. When I had vinyl bumper stickers made, I paid for half that cost and sold about 80 of them for $3 each just to get the word and the Tango URL out there and seen. I have about 20 left... Anyone want one? I've spent thousands of my money doing nice things for Tango here in Buffalo and WNY..., and I've never told anyone that before. Now it's different. I was hoping others would come in to help... To cooperate... To cause more growth, more venues, more good instructors being brought in... But it was 'organized'.., into a 'club'.., with a leader.., instead. :-( Almost not worth trying.., you know? Floyd On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:01:26 -0400, you wrote: >I honestly have resisted being part of these particular threads - but I >really do want anyone and everyone passing even reasonably near Buffalo >to come dance with us. > >I generally have about 30 folks at my regular monthly milonga - and >we're not too "gender imbalanced" :). When I have visiting >instructors, I usually "sell" something like 50-55 sessions (includes >repeaters who are taking more than 1 workshop), and I usually, not >always, fill as many privates as we can schedule. I've had almost 60 >people for two special "gala" milongas/dinner dances. I have even been >able to get some tv coverage for some of our events and a feature in a >local glossy magazine is being done. I am also happy to say that, >through our events, we have raised money to repair a public art >installation named, appropriately enough, the Tango Dancers. > >We have people aged early 20s to 80s - with varying degrees of >experience and different backgrounds - salsa, ballroom, swing and, of >course, our tango purists :). I am actually proud of the fact that, >with very, very little exception, everyone dances with everyone and I >especially love the care that most of our leaders, and followers, take >to make sure any "newbies" get a chance to dance - even if it's just a >walk around the floor. There is a young man who does a monthly >Saturday night milonga, and he also gets a lot of folks - they tend to >be the younger dancers, but not exclusively. He is more traditional in >his play-list, etc. which is great. He does a lot of demonstrations in >the community which helps bring folks in - esp. people from the local >salsa crowd and the University. As my monthly weeknight dance tends to >serve as an "entry point' for folks who may not have much, if any, >dance experience - I tend to play a little more alternative tango and I >throw in some latin and swing - which a lot of folks like - I know >there may be a lot of folks who would "disapprove," but almost everyone >gets on the floor for these "breaks" - so I must be doing something >right :). > >If any one finds themselves anywhere near Buffalo - let me know, I'll >try to find you places to dance, to stay and to make new friends. :) > >Barbra > Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * From michaelfigart at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 04:11:34 2008 From: michaelfigart at yahoo.com (Michael Figart II) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] how much weight? Message-ID: <209466.19159.qm@web39708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, there's been a whole lotta talk about all these weight changes. They are not black and white. It seems as though many, many people in the US, teachers and dancers, have ascribed to the belief that a follower should always be on one foot or the other. I have to lead women all the time who bounce quickly from left to right and back again, when all I've done as a leader is move 60% of my weight to my left foot, to 60% of my weight on my right foot. What I want, dear followers, is 60% of your weight on your right, and then 60% of your weight on your left. Don't think you have to go immediately all the way to one foot with a small shift of my weight; take your time, and move slowly with me. Slowly, smoothly....take your time; Joan Bishop says, "Be Blanche Dubois, get there when you're damn good and ready". Susana Miller says, "A little late, but right on time". If I move 60% left and come back to center, do it, if I move 100% left and all the way to my left foot, do it. But I can also move 60% left, and then 10 degrees (circular) left, and tell you that we're fixing to take off, as I move more left rotationally, as you wait, going from 60%weight on your right to 65%, to 70%, as you pivot, and then 75%, as you lift your left foot...... Jeez folks, it's pretty impossible to put this down where it's understandable and intelligible by all in the same manner in which its intended, which is one reason I don't post too often. But I've grown tired lately of reading all this pontificating drivel and nonsense by one or two so called experts who couldn't tango themselves out of a moist paper sack sitting in the mist of Buffalo, I mean Niagara, Falls. Please look for teachers who know how to control their axis. Watch for those who "collect" their axis. That doesn't mean they necessarily "collect" their feet. A dancer can "collect" their own axis without their feet being together...(but it helps, especially for the first ten years!) Avoid those who slop their axis all over the place, with never a thought about leading from a center to a center. We've been shown some really great examples of this kind of "leading" lately, on internet video. My best to all, Michael Figart II Houston Tx From patangos at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 05:32:42 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <269807.52772.qm@web55314.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Floyd, Trini, here. I understand where you're coming from. We've swallowed a lot of losses ourselves when we first started our group. And I don't think anyone will truly know how much work an organizer does, except another organizer. You should be quite proud of the fact that you've created enough interest in the dance that another has created a way for tango to continue in Buffalo in perpetuity. Have you ever wondered what would happen to all of the work you've done to build your community if tomorrow you were hit by a car and died? Would you want all of that work to simply cease? By creating a nonprofit, Barbra has created a way that can allow tango to grow on its on, regardless of what happens to you, Barbra, or others. Isn't that what you wanted in the first place? One of the dangers of those who work independently is that when we leave, our knowledge leaves with us. And tango is basically a knowledge-based "industry" (for lack of a better word). So it's important for us to share our knowledge about how we do what we do with others. You have an opportunity to do that. While I also understand your way of thinking that tango should be free, a lot of people are willing to invest financially in tango for the same reason you did - because they love this dance. That's it. For them, it's their way of contributing to the community. They might not have the time or skills to do more, but if money is the way they feel they can help, then let them. If finances are an issue for someone, then you can grant scholarships or find other ways to ease their monetary issues. You've basically made a major investment in your hobby. It's starting to payoff, but don't blow the investment by playing politics. To me politics is a game in which you try to make others do what you want. But when one realizes that you can't control what others do, then the game of politics ends. And mutual respect for others' decisions begins. Good luck, Trini de Pittsburgh --- Floyd Baker wrote: > > > Here's my version of the above...: > > There are Milongas once a month now, for the past few > months.., in the > same place I used to hold them every week. They now > draw 30 monthly, > where we were getting 40 and 50 weekly, until the > 'politics' started. > > Someone simply turned the electric back on to the Tango > Dancers neon > sign and, voila, most of it worked. Nothing was really > 'repaired'. > (Unless something has happened in the last couple of > weeks. But I > don't believe so.) > > Visiting Tango instructors are quite often the same > ballroom sponsored > and title awarded "A/Tango Champions"... What are A/T > 'champions'? > > Our Tango community has been converted back to taking > anything that's > available dance wise. The way it was before Tango > started to grow > here. > > And just for the record...: > > I never tried to make money with efforts to grow Tango... > I never > charged for any of the 125 or so dances I held.., and it > was a *lot* > of work... Everything was for Tango. It is my hobby > and everyone > should expect to pay for 'hobbies'. So it was then free > for everyone > who partook of my hobby. The workshop charges went to > the instructors > and I covered some of their additional expenses on my > own. Car > rental, air fare, etc. to make the workshop prices lower. > When I > provided the festival bus last summer, I ate half the > cost of the bus > so people would have what I considered a 'reasonable' > ticket price. > When I had vinyl bumper stickers made, I paid for half > that cost and > sold about 80 of them for $3 each just to get the word > and the Tango > URL out there and seen. I have about 20 left... Anyone > want one? > > I've spent thousands of my money doing nice things for > Tango here in > Buffalo and WNY..., and I've never told anyone that > before. > > Now it's different. I was hoping others would come in > to help... To > cooperate... To cause more growth, more venues, more > good instructors > being brought in... But it was 'organized'.., into a > 'club'.., with a > leader.., instead. :-( > > Almost not worth trying.., you know? > > Floyd > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 29 08:11:11 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:11:11 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: <262796.65462.qm@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <262796.65462.qm@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4817105F.9030506@sgi.com> Michael Figart II wrote: > Alexis wrote; > <<<<< weight shift of the follower through your own weight > shift>>>>>>>>. > Jeez, Alexis; that's exactly what many here are > saying; that unless you "disguise" it, or make it > "invisible", the follower will change weight also. That's not how I read it, and obviously that's indeed mistaken (at least in general, unless you have what *I* define as a locked frame - a frame which does indeed force leader and follower to move weight only in unison). There are even steps where leader and follower are in movement and coutermovement (though these tend to be harder in apilado, they're not entirely impossible there: even in that frame the angle between shoulder lines of leader and follower isn't necessarily fixed, and the leader can do all sorts of body movements that dissociate his lower body from his upper). -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 29 08:14:00 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:14:00 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: <262796.65462.qm@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <262796.65462.qm@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48171108.4000403@sgi.com> Michael Figart II wrote: > So who died and made you King? And who made you knight in shiny armour and ad hominem weaponry? I never claimed to be king, and there's absolutely no reason to get your panties in a bunch. I didn't understand what people were saying, so I just threw in my $0.02. And you could have voiced your opinion *slightly* more courteously. There's enough vitriol on the list like it is. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 29 08:18:21 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:18:21 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how much weight? In-Reply-To: <209466.19159.qm@web39708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <209466.19159.qm@web39708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4817120D.3000508@sgi.com> Michael Figart II wrote: > and move slowly with me. Exactly: *WITH* the leader. That's a shared responsibility: the leader doesn't move unless he feels the follower, well, follows, and the follower doesn't move of her own accord just because she knows the end destination (or thinks she does). The connection takes care of everything, as long as you nurture it. When you stroll in the park with someone, you don't start sprinting hoping the other party follows as soon as oyu've reached agreement on which way to go. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From jpsighe at sighes.com Tue Apr 29 11:15:42 2008 From: jpsighe at sighes.com (Jean-Pierre Sighe) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:15:42 -0700 Subject: [Tango-L] SALIDA CON "loko" Part 2 Message-ID: <00ab01c8aa0b$e5a299e0$020fa8c0@Desktop1> "...If he wants to bring her back in front of him, he can then make her use the logical Cruzada. But this time, it would be executed on her left (instead of the traditional right). In other words, she will cross her right leg over the left. Watch video 3 in open and close embrace. Click on the following link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQnmXkjRsg The second angle that I find interesting, from the same point where the man stands after the Salida con ?loko? is the change of direction, using the Media-Vuelta. Watch video 4 in open and close embrace. Click on the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoO59UuyoW4 " Please, click on the following link to read the rest of the article: http://www.tangomagdalena.com/Newsletters/vol8_apr08.html Tangamente, Jean-Pierre Sighe From keith at tangohk.com Mon Apr 28 23:44:48 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:44:48 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: <50035.1209440688@tangohk.com> On Tue Apr 29 2:23 , Alexis Cousein sent: >If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible >for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; I don't agree with this and would say that any beginner in his very first lesson can do it. One of the first things we teach beginners is to embrace and then do weight changes from foot to foot with the man leading and the lady following. It's amazing the number of guys who can change feet without the girl even knowing. The reason is that the guy just lifts his foot off the floor by bending his knee and his torso doesn't move. Try it - it's like marching in place. What's equally surprising is that a few weeks later, when we teach crossed feet walking, these same guys have difficulty doing what they could do in their first lesson and have to re-learn changing feet without moving the torso. As others have already explained, it's all about disassociation - separating the upper and lower parts of the body. Alternatively, you can change weight with one foot behind the other and this will also result in no sideways motion of the torso. Keith, HK From Crrtango at aol.com Tue Apr 29 11:57:24 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:57:24 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: On Tue Apr 29? 2:23 , Alexis Cousein? sent: >If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible >for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; Although we don't agree on everything ;-), I agree with Keith on this one. It is not impossible at all to change weight while in a close embrace although "locked" is maybe not the best word to describe it, since that implies a restriction of movement. I have always danced close embrace and in body contact with my partner and often change weight without the follower knowing it. But I don't agree that it is something beginners can master easily because of its subtlety, but it can be learned, with a little practice, and taught. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 12:46:16 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? Message-ID: <417422.8044.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's Friday so it must be Manhatten..or is it Buenos Aires?? Well, the action in the big apple is starting to look a lot like a golden age. http://nyctango.blogspot.com/ Now, if we can just get the gringos to kiss each other when they meet and remember our name and favorite table....voilla, it's the new capitol of Tango! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From jayrabe at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 13:22:45 2008 From: jayrabe at hotmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:22:45 +0000 Subject: [Tango-L] how many tangos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oleh, you should post your question to the TangoDJ group on yahoo groups. I'm sure someone there will have a good estimate. J TangoMoments.com _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 13:50:22 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] how many tangos? Message-ID: <671171.76552.qm@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I asked the same question of Sridhar who dances/teaches in Phila.(how many tangos?) www.tangohug.com He laughed and replied that of all the tango that he's been listening to for the past 8 years, (he has a nice collection) and he hasn't even scratche the surface of what's out there. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From tango.society at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 14:35:27 2008 From: tango.society at gmail.com (Tango Society of Central Illinois) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:35:27 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] how many tangos (used for dancing)? Message-ID: I did a little thought experiment. It is not about how many tangos have been recorded, but rather how many tangos (milongas & valses) are used at milongas in Buenos Aires. A typical milonga in Buenos Aires is about 6 hours. Let's assume 6 tandas (TTVTTM) can fit into an hour, so that's 36 tandas in a milonga, with (typically) 4 songs per tanda = 144 songs per milonga. Actually, cortinas are longer in Buenos Aires and there are often non-tango 'tandas' (tropical music, jazz/rock 'n roll), but let's go with that number. Let's say you go to a different milonga every day for a week, with a different DJ at each. In Buenos Aires you will hear a lot of same music repeated at different milongas. Let's say that of the 144 tangos you heard on Sunday, only half, or 72, will be different on Monday On Tuesday you will hear only half as many new tangos that were not played on Sunday and Monday (=36), on Wednesday 18 new tangos, Thursday 9, etc. At the end of the week you will have heard about 285 different tangos. Let's say that actually 300 tangos (milongas & valses) account for 95% of the tango music played in the milongas of Buenos Aires. Maybe that's a low estimate, But it doesn't sound too low. That's enough for 75 tandas. I have about 100 tandas on my computer ready for use as a DJ, but some of these tandas I hardly ever use. Maybe I use 75 of them 95% of the time. Anyway, just a thought experiment, based on experience and intuition. Ron On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > I have been talking to someone at recent milonga, and someone has > asked me, if I get tired of dancing to the same old tangos. My answer > was no: the mood, the partner change the emotional meaning of the > dance all the time. Besides that, there are a lot of classic tangos I > have never had a chance to dance to yet. I have couple thousands > recordings by various tango dance orchestras from the golden age of > tango myself -- most of them I had never heard played at milongas. > > Thinking about his question has piqued my curiosity though. Does > anyone know how many arrangements have been recorded by all tango > dance orchestras in the period from the late twenties to the fifties? > ~20,000; 50,000; 100,000...? > > -- > Oleh Kovalchuke > Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm > http://tangospring.com > _______________________________________________ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L at mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 29 17:03:29 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:03:29 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] how many tangos (used for dancing)? Message-ID: <20080429205912.AB1C423584C@p3fed1.frb.org> Ron offered some comments about the number of tangos used for dancing. I'm offering a few more comments. A typical cycle for deejaying a milonga is TTVTTM (two tandas of tango, one tanda of vals, two tandas of tango, one tanda of milonga). With each tanda comprising four songs and a cortina, it is 70+ minutes per cycle. My current playlist is about 600 tangos, vals and milongas (including alternative and neo recordings), which is about 30 hours of dance music. (I also take salsa, swing and merengue to milongas.) As a deejay, I mostly adhere to philsophy of playing the well-known classics for dancing from each orchestra. I don't mean that I limit my playlist to the golden era. I mean that I use only the top dance recordings for each orchestra. For D'Arienzo, as an example, I have 37 tangos, 11 valses and 15 milongas on my playlist. According to the Juan D'Arienzo discography at tangoteca, Juan D'Arienzo recorded 1007 tracks, including 83 valses and 88 milongas. In selecting my 63 tracks, I am used about 6 percent of D'Arienzo's oeuvre, and that is for one of the most popular orchestras for dancing. (Extrapolation from my playlist suggests that tens of thousands of tango recordings were made. My guess is 20 thousand plus, but would defer to someone more knowledgeable, such as Keith Elshaw or Tobias Conradi. Of course, not all of these recordings are available on CD.) A few djs have told me that they have playlists upwards to 1800 tracks. I think they are reaching more deeply into the recordings for lesser-known material to establish a playlist. I suspect on some of these longer playlists, there are numerous recordings that languish without actually being played. With best regards, Steve From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 29 17:14:55 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:14:55 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48178FCF.6020103@sgi.com> Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > On Tue Apr 29 2:23 , Alexis Cousein sent: > >> If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible >> for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; > > Although we don't agree on everything ;-), I agree with Keith on this one. > It is not impossible at all to change weight [and to prevent the partner to do so] while in a close embrace Yes. And as I tried to say several times, that's why I don't consider the frame to be locked, exactly for the reason you gave ("locked" implies a restriction). There are moments in which (in close and open embrace) the frame if locked, and there are other moments (again, in close and in open embrace) in which the frame isn't. If you change weight and your partner doesn't, then I don't consider the frame locked. Of course, other people are free to use terms in a different way. I *said* that I acknowledged the fact that I was in violent agreement with the gist of most comments but didn't define a frame to be locked in the same way, and now I'm continually dragged back into the fray by people who insist on reading my words using a definition that I have *SAID* isn't mine. Close embrace != locked in my dictionary (I prefer the term "joined"). If it is in yours, then there's no need to read *my* statements through your glasses and disagree, because I'd disagree with them too, when read in this way. -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From Crrtango at aol.com Tue Apr 29 17:36:44 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:36:44 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: Alexei wrote: <<>> <<>> That is something of an arrogant stance to assume that you are using language correctly and everyone else is misinterpreting it. Your choice of words leaves many things open to interpretation. Nobody is dragging you into the fray. We are only questioning what you mean, which is not very clear. A simple clarification without the condescension will suffice. Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From donnay at donnay.net Tue Apr 29 17:37:19 2008 From: donnay at donnay.net (Lois Donnay) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:37:19 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] Community building/ Tango in restaurants & bars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't give up on these places yet, Charles. About a year ago I was contacted by a local Latin restaurant, a really nice, popular place, asking me to do a tango night. The night they chose was Thursday. I warned the owners that this night would probably not succeed, because Thursday nights had already recently seen a tango night closed because of lack of business. Also, this same place had at one time had a tango night on Wednesday, hosted by another teacher (although I later took over). The owner at that time was not satisfied, and we decided to close it down. The night is still going strong, and it's a lot of fun. I think the combination of not too high of expectations, plus a go-between (someone between the dancers and the owners), was the difference. It is true that dancers don't spend as much as other patrons. But worse than that, they are messy (shoes and bags everywhere), they don't leave, and they are demanding (the music is too quiet/loud, the place is too hot/cold, the dance floor is too slick/sticky, not big enough) plus they don't make room for waitstaff. If there is no one but the restaurant staff to complain to, the owners get pretty sick of the dancers. I provide that "go-between" service to the restaurant. I have been running a dance night at another location once a month now for 4 years, and the owners love us. I think I finally learned how to run these nights. I don't tell them that a dance night will solve their fiscal problems, bring in lots of new customers, make their place a hot-spot....I know I can't promise that. I thank them for having us. I am mindful that we are in their place, not that they work for us. I thank them, and I ask the dancers who come to thank them as well. Oh, yes - any tango teacher who organizes a dance night with the purpose of making money is crazy. Organizing dance nights is a service that all teachers should provide for their communities (if they are invested in the community). It may make some money - about $3/hour if you count the whole night plus the legwork. Don't expect to get lots of students either. Other teachers who come to the event are on the lookout for newbies, too. What you get is a stronger community that, someday, may have a bigger returns for everyone. Oh, yeah, and it's more fun!! Lois Donnay Minneapolis (welcoming everyone to the Heartland Tango Festival in 2 weeks!) > However one venue is consistent with other cities...the restaurant that has a > slow night (or has low attendance in general) that expects to bring in a > tango crowd to bolster its business. After an initial rush they usually close. A > few have survived but as Stephen said, tango dancers do not spend money on > food and liquor and often the restaurant will drop the tango night, especially > if business picks up. One or two have survived here, notably Lafayette Grill > which also has tango now on other nights (but it is an exception), but the floor > is a little small and the level of dancing is mixed. Others hang in but > usually with a small crowd. I have personally seen maybe twenty "restaurant > milongas" come and go. > Most of the people who run the milongas have resigned themselves to making > only a certain amount of money and no more...no one makes a big profit. Most of > the people who run the milongas have other income or are involved in other > milongas and workshops. > > As Danel once said to me: Nobody got rich from tango, except Francisco > Canaro. > > Cheers, > Charles From al at sgi.com Tue Apr 29 17:54:08 2008 From: al at sgi.com (Alexis Cousein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:54:08 +0200 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48179900.30600@sgi.com> Crrtango at aol.com wrote: > That is something of an arrogant stance to assume that you are using language > correctly and everyone else is misinterpreting it. You're putting words into my mouth. I am not claiming my definition is necessarily better than anyone else's. It just happens to be the most natural one *to me*, which explains my posts, and I have acknowledged that others may use different language, and have tried to *clarify* how my posts should be read. That's all. Of course, I am awaiting your *private* mail with bated breath that will enable me to find *the* authoritative lexicon defining the term "locked frame". Private, because this semantic nitpicking is polluting the list. > A simple clarification without the condescension will suffice. I *have* clarified it. Indeed, it appears to be one of the clarifications that prompted your response - which, by the way, feels very condescendent to me (though I'm sure you may see it differently). A simple clarification without the condescension will suffice ;). -- Alexis Cousein al at sgi.com Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 29 17:59:55 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: <20080429215538.D0EEC2356E2@p3fed1.frb.org> As has been pointed out at least several times on this list, tango teaching doesn't always lead to tango learning. Some of the problems that I have seen include teaching technique that suits only the instructor's own physiology, teaching poor technique*, and offering convoluted explanations of relatively simple concepts. In my opinion, nearly all uses of the hands to lead fall into the second category. In my mind, what was variously described as multiple or multi-level leading in the recent discussion on Tango-L falls into the latter category. As far as I am concerned, the nearly all of the lead is conveyed with movement of the man's torso, regardless of style. The man's right arm sometimes adds reinforcement as an extension of the torso's movement, but without rigidity. Use of the hand is usually reserved for a few of the occasions when the follower is asked not to shift her weight as the man moves. There may be other exceptions, but nearly all uses of the hand that I have seen taught are completely unnecessary and potentially unpleasant for the follower. Given these basics, I'm reminded of what a woman told me shortly after dancing with Pablo Veron. She said in a gushing, dazzled tone, "I didn't feel like he led me so much as I felt like he willed my movements." That has been my goal as a leader--finding the balance between strength, grace and gentleness that conveys the lead in such a way that the woman doesn't feel at all pushed around, that she has a good idea what I am trying to have us accomplish, and that she is able to express her own voice. With best regards, Steve *Some instructors have poor technique in their own dancing, and some instructors teach techniques that are inferior to their own dancing. In one instance, however, I had an instructor whose own technique was inferior to his instruction. From Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org Tue Apr 29 18:24:50 2008 From: Stephen.P.Brown at dal.frb.org (Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:24:50 -0500 Subject: [Tango-L] NBC TODAY: Tango Clip Message-ID: <20080429222049.7A6DF2358C5@p3fed1.frb.org> Matt Lauer from "NBC Today" was in Buenos Aires, Argentina to kick off this year's "Where in the World is Matt" tour. This clip shows a little bit of a show demonstration at the Obelisco. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24350515#24350515 Steve From tl2 at chrisjj.com Tue Apr 29 18:29:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] Community building/ Tango in restaurants & bars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > any tango teacher who organizes a dance night with the purpose of making > money is crazy. ... It may make some money - about $3/hour You USA tango workers really out to get out more. Many teachers/organisers easily make $100/hr organising dance nights... or "milongas" as we call them hereabouts. -- Chris From Crrtango at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:30:40 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:30:40 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Books Message-ID: I picked up a number of new and used tango books and magazines when I was in Buenos Aires. I am almost finished a new one about Carlos Gavito which appears to be part or the beginning of a series called "Voces En La Milonga" (Voices in the Milonga). Gavito was sometimes a polarizing figure on the tango scene (in the U.S. anyway) because of his minimalist style but did have an interesting history in the dance world and knew many composers, singers and other dancers. As I finish them I will post a short synopsis for those interested in reading them. They are all in Spanish but some might be translated in the future for those who do not speak the language. More to come... Cheers, Charles ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From Crrtango at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:51:55 2008 From: Crrtango at aol.com (Crrtango@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:51:55 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[Tango-L]=A0=20how=20many=20tangos=3F?= Message-ID: I responded privately but the recipient (Mario) thought it worthy of posting so... > Who knows? The earliest ones date from the turn of the 20th cent. but many > were rearranged and re-recorded many times.? We also don't hear all the > mediocre ones that never became hits, or the bad versions or the many vocal ones > not meant for dancing. In Buenos Aires there is a radio station that plays > nothing but tango all day but a lot of it is not for dancing, so obviously there > are plenty of them. > > As to how many recordings are available...also a good question. Most but not > everything is in print, or converted, although I suspect most of it is.?I > have about 120 CDs of just the classic golden-age ones that I have accumulated > over the years I have been dancing, and there is little repetition, but some > of course. > > One thing I will add to the above (although it is not as much of an issue > with people who share songs and files) is that if you see a decent CD, don't > hesitate to buy it because one problem I have noticed is that many music > stores do not (or cannot) restock tango CDs. I have picked up many that appeared > only that time, never to be seen again. There are also some composers and > orchestra leaders who aren't in print, or very little, Francisco Lomuto being one > notable example. If anyone knows where I can find CDs by him, I would > appreciate it. Also if you can wait, buy them in Buenos Aires where they sell for > half the U.S. price > > Charles > > ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From sopelote at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 21:27:27 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] la baldosa y corazon de papel..2 songs/dances Message-ID: <636996.50286.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXP45OLZbQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI Two interesting dances....la baldosa y corazon de papel the first is a demo in mostly close embrace the second is a practica in apilado ...pero muy milonguero... this second ne is perhaps the best tango that I've found as yet on YouTube..anyone agree? Show us your favorite? --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From ATANGO2 at aol.com Wed Apr 30 01:38:56 2008 From: ATANGO2 at aol.com (ATANGO2@aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 01:38:56 EDT Subject: [Tango-L] Communities Message-ID: Thank you, Ron, for the nice words about Portland in your recent post about communities. We were extremely fortunate to have Clay Nelson as our original resident teacher and primary organizer in the mid-90's. His "If it's good for tango, it'll be good for the community" approach has remained a significant factor in sustaining Portland's positive attitude toward, and acceptance of, multiple styles of dancing and teaching. We also have several outstanding, influential, long term teachers, DJs, hosts and promoters who continue to set high standards for maintaining a cooperative/collaborative community that is based on sharing the wonders of tango, and who support individuality while emphasizing the benefits of mutuality. (Megan Pingree, Robert Hauk, Alex Krebs, Bill Alsup, and Jay Rabe for examples.) People have been known to move here because of the abundance of friendly people and great tango. We'd love to have you visit. Polly McBride _www.tangoquest.net_ (http://www.tangoquest.net) _www.claysdancestudio.com_ (http://www.claysdancestudio.com) _www.portlandtango.com_ (http://www.portlandtango.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) From stermitz at tango.org Wed Apr 30 01:51:10 2008 From: stermitz at tango.org (Tom Stermitz) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:51:10 -0600 Subject: [Tango-L] Communities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FD15914-911F-415B-A62C-F4F3FE3A589C@tango.org> I like a quote attributed to Clay: "There's more than enough to go around." In other words, tango communities are not a zero sum game. There is ALWAYS a new angle, a different venue or an audience nobody else is reaching: high school, prisons!, gays. My quote (I don't know whether I invented it): "Nobody is at their best when they are insecure.: People do all kinds of wierd, anxious, even self-destructive things when they don't trust their own competence. Really, if you are all that good, than you are going to succeed, even if "they" get in your way. On Apr 29, 2008, at 11:38 PM, ATANGO2 at aol.com wrote: > Thank you, Ron, for the nice words about Portland in your recent > post about > communities. We were extremely fortunate to have Clay Nelson as > our original > resident teacher and primary organizer in the mid-90's. His "If > it's good > for tango, it'll be good for the community" approach has remained a > significant factor in sustaining Portland's positive attitude > toward, and acceptance > of, multiple styles of dancing and teaching. From niki.papapetrou at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 04:43:05 2008 From: niki.papapetrou at gmail.com (Niki Papapetrou) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:43:05 +1000 Subject: [Tango-L] Tango World Cup... Message-ID: <3eff99210804300143t20c0443ei3b30bd1b46041ce0@mail.gmail.com> for anyone who may not be quite sated by a championship... :) http://www.istanbuldance2008.com/argentinatangorules.htm (This was forwarded to me by the Cyprus tango community) -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki http://tangotrails.blogspot.com From patangos at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 06:18:18 2008 From: patangos at yahoo.com (Trini y Sean (PATangoS)) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Communities In-Reply-To: <1FD15914-911F-415B-A62C-F4F3FE3A589C@tango.org> Message-ID: <119681.70773.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Tom Stermitz wrote: > People do all kinds of wierd, anxious, even self-destructive things when they don't trust their own competence. Really, if you are all that good, than you are going to succeed, even if "they" get in your way. I've always thought that many of the issues that occur between tango groups regarding competition would disappear if those in charge were more familiar with anti-trust law. Partly because it takes the emotional side out of organizing. It is simply THE LAW. The same way sexual harassement or any other law applies. As Ron pointed out, most tango communities are either monopolies or oligopolies. And it is patently illegal to do anything to suppress competition. A monopoly may arise if a business succeeds in doing so by "superior thrift, industry, or foresight". Where I think organizers need to be particularly concerned are collusion, price-fixing, dividing up of geographical territories, or the like. Otherwise, they develop into a cartel, which is also illegal. With email, it's a lot easier to track paper trails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel Although one may say "well, this is only tango so who would care?", why take that risk? Would you risk being charged with sexual harassment? Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From tl2 at chrisjj.com Wed Apr 30 08:34:00 2008 From: tl2 at chrisjj.com (Chris, UK) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tango-L] www.tangovideoproject.com RIP? Message-ID: I see http://www.tangovideoproject.com/ is down, and has been since the end of April. Permanently? Anyone know the story? -- Chris From martin at waxman.net Wed Apr 30 09:20:58 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:20:58 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] la baldosa y corazon de papel..2 songs/dances In-Reply-To: <636996.50286.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <636996.50286.qm@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080430091722.01ee2460@waxman.net> At 09:27 PM 4/29/2008, Mario wrote: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXP45OLZbQ >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI >the first is a demo in mostly close embrace the second is a practica >in apilado ... The first is mostly open embrace, the second is mostly close embrace -- definitely NOT apilado. Marty From martin at waxman.net Wed Apr 30 09:58:01 2008 From: martin at waxman.net (Martin Waxman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:58:01 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] la baldosa y corazon de papel..2 songs/dances Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080430092729.01ee2460@waxman.net> Mario wrote: >...the second is a practica in apilado ... Not. In apilado you lean against each other and dance chest to chest without separating at all. The follower's left arm is generally around the neck of the leader. Examples: http://www.helloworld.com.es/english/quick%20reference/verbs/lazymood/apilar.htm (defnition and conjugation of "apilar" ) http://www.easytango.com/dance/Apilado http://tango.romanvirdi.com/fast-track-teaching.htm http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2006/apilado_position.htm http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2004/way_dance_apilado%20.htm http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg01879.html http://www.virtuar.com/jcc/2007/workout_apilado4.html From sopelote at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 15:03:50 2008 From: sopelote at yahoo.com (Mario) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tango-L] Beautifuller and Beautifuller Message-ID: <677107.12010.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OMG, How did I miss this one????? Go ahead and laugh but I actually cried while watching this play thru. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP6CtHLZ9p8 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From keith at tangohk.com Tue Apr 29 14:26:46 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] A Troublesome Lead Message-ID: <49922.1209493606@tangohk.com> There's one lead that I always find troublesome and generally avoid. It's LF side, lady RF side and then, without a pause, lead the lady into a LF Front Cross in front of me. The reasons I find it troublesome are: 1. I feel that it results in a break in the connection; and 2. I feel that it needs a lead with the right arm, which I generally don't like to do. The reason I raise the subject now is that I was watching an excellent video of Alberto Dassieu that was posted by Mario. http://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=VqgujDIWlOc Alberto gives this lead 4 times during the dance at 0.39, 1.06, 1.17 and 2.40. On 2 ocassions he does it without moving his RF and the other 2 he steps forward, with the lady, with his RF. Do others who dance in close embrace lead this step and, if so, how do you resolve the problems I have? I emphasise that the lead is without a pause. I have no trouble leading the lady to step in front of me with her LF if I pause after my RF side and LF close. Keith, HK From keith at tangohk.com Tue Apr 29 23:52:47 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:52:47 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change') Message-ID: <49817.1209527567@tangohk.com> Alexis, >From your job title, you sound like a scientist, so let's do a little scientific experiment to try to settle this matter. Find a fixed point in your house [or office] at chest height. We'll assume this is the connection point on the lady's chest when you dance Tango. Now stand in front of this point so that your own connection point is facing it. It's better if the fixed point is projecting forward so that your chest can make physical contact. Now see if you can change weight, from foot to foot, while maintaining that contact. If you can, and as her axis obviously hasn't moved, she has no lead to follow your weight changes. You'll actually find it very easy and the key is rotation of the torso. I assume we agree that rotation of the torso about her unchanged axis will not lead her to make a step. I'm not a scientist and I just made this experiment up, so please feel free with your corrections. Keith, HK On Tue Apr 29 2:23 , Alexis Cousein sent: >If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible >for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; >by definition: a weight change means moving your centre of gravity >relative to your support points, and if the frame is locked, by >definition you can't have one person doing it and the other not. > From keith at tangohk.com Wed Apr 30 09:07:13 2008 From: keith at tangohk.com (Keith) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:07:13 -0400 Subject: [Tango-L] Communities Message-ID: <50123.1209560833@tangohk.com> All this talk of trouble in Tango communities makes me realise just how lucky we've been in Hong Kong. Tango started here in 1996/97 with 2 couples who started off trying to work together. They quickly realised they were interested in different things, separated and each started their own group. Fortunately, their activities complimented, rather than competed with each other and both groups went from strength to strength. A few years ago other groups started up and now there are seven, so it's getting a little crowded. But, as far as I know, there's never been a single conflict. I still have my Friday milonga and the leaders of 5 of the other 6 groups come on a regular basis. Keith, HK On Wed Apr 30 18:18 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent: > >I've always thought that many of the issues that occur >between tango groups regarding competition would disappear >if those in charge were more familiar with anti-trust law.