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<p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Mike P,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Thank you for pointing out the BestBuiltApps document.
For those of you who prefer your news delivered right to you - here is an
excerpt:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i>SOA-BPM-2. SAP recommends
that ISVs use SAP NetWeaver BPM<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i>for business process
modeling. SAP also recommends that ISVs use<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><i><u>the SAP Business
Workflow</u></i></b><i> tool for workflows within a pure, ABAP<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i>single-instance application.
SAP does not recommend using:<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> - SAP Business
Connector, which has been retired and<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> replaced
with functionality in SAP NetWeaver<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> - Workflow
Modeler, except for ISV solutions that enhance<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> SAP
CRM<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> - SAP NetWeaver
Business Warehouse process chains<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> (process
chains are recommended for loading but not for<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> workflow)<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> -SAP NetWeaver
MDM workflow<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i> - Java ad-hoc
workflows<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><o:p> </o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><o:p> </o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>As GNR would say 'We ain't dead yet'...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Sue<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Susan R. Keohan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>SAP Workflow Specialist<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Enterprise Applications<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Information Services Department<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>MIT Lincoln Laboratory<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>244 Wood Street, LI-200<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Lexington, MA. 02420<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>781-981-3561<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>keohan@LL.MIT.EDU<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: sap-wug-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:sap-wug-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Mike
Pokraka<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:42 AM<br>
To: SAP Workflow Users' Group<br>
Subject: Re: This Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>You'll be pleased to know that I don't consider your
situation that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>peculiar, most of my projects have been great supporters
of workflow.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Unfortunately it's a question of commercial incentive for
SAP to devote<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>significant resources to the workflow engine, so it's
easy to arrive at<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>the "if it ain't broke..." conclusion when
asking how further development<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>is going to increase licensing revenue. For that matter,
I don't see a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>major MM or SD revision coming out any time soon either.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>What I do know is that SAP may not place great strategic
value on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Workflow, but do still consider it of functional value.
Of course if you<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>mention BOR there'll be contempt because... well you know
my opinion on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>it. Workflow however remains a recommended technology
under SAP's Best<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Built Apps initiative, now in it's third iteration<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>(http://bestbuiltapps.sap.com - page 18-19), and they are
committed to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>supporting it for a long time.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>NetWeaver BPM is not designed as a replacement for
workflow, but a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>complementary product. NWBPM has breadth and WF had
depth. NWBPM still has<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>significant shortcomings - a lot of them - and some won't
ever go away<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>simply due to the opposing nature of the designs. For
this reason I don't<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>think WF is dead for a long while yet. I see at least
5-10 years of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>significant WF development in the majority of
organisations. A great many<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>aren't even using the UWL yet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>What would be great is something in between the two, and
one way would be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>a shift towards BPMN compliance/compatibility in the ABAP
workflow engine.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>In theory not a ridiculous undertaking as the SAP-WF
design is not too far<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>off BPMN rules (close enough that I advocate BPMN as a
documentation<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>standard for workflows). As NWBPM is BPMN-based, it would
make things a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>little more portable between the two engines. In
dreamland that would<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>allow people to design a process independent of either
and deploy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>different parts of it on whichever engine is most
suitable.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>develop it further, because the amount of effort required
to impact<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>=licensing revenue?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>On Tue, May 4, 2010 9:45 pm, Madgambler wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Much as I'd like to agree with you Susan, I see and
hear plenty to the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> contrary from SAP's own consultants every day here
in the UK. And it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> disappoints me because I see a lot of untapped
potential being<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> overlooked because: a) it's considered to be 'old'
so it's not being<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> taught in Walldorf/Mumbai, b) it's entirely
dependent on ABAP to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> function and c) SAP are trying to abandon their
traditional Gui for<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Web UI / BOL / GenIL at an alarming rate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Granted our situation is a bit peculiar because of
the size of the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> system and the (over)dependence on Workflow here but
I feel I have to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> regularly defend Workflow as a 'workhorse' on a
daily basis. And to be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> honest I'm starting to regard it more and more as an
obsolete dead-end<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> as that seems to be the overwhelming attitude of
anyone coming in from<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> the CRM and PI worlds. I don't really believe that
it is dead by the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> way but I do think the bell is tolling faintly.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Start talking about BOR to a CRM Consultant these
days and you'll hear<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> a guffaw of contempt followed swiftly by a dismissal
about it being<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> yesterday's tool with a limited future. Mention SBWP
to the latest<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> breed of Developers and half won't have a clue the
other half won't<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> care, prefering to talk instead about the Web UI
home page instead.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Now it could be just me but I really don't see any
investment in<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Workflow stuff, just a tacit acceptance that it's
hanging around so<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> people have to be aware of it and be backwards
compatible. The only<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> driving force behind Workflow now appears to come
from the clients who<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> use it and rely on it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> As with ABAP it seems that SAP aren't dumb, they
know they have cash<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> cow with Workflow. So it's not like it's going to
disappear anytime<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> soon. But apart from the massive OO heart bypass we
saw from 4.6c to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> ECC 6 little else is on the horizon as far as we
know. Perhaps you<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> know different?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Mike GT<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> On 4 May 2010, at 20:25, "Keohan, Susan - 1140
- MITLL" <keohan@ll.mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> > wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> I have seen the decrease in traffic over the
past few years. As a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> matter of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> fact, I proposed sunsetting this forum in 2007 -
at it's 10-year<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> birthday.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> At the time, many subscribers asked that the
list be kept alive, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> so it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> is.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> As long as someone sees benefit in it, then it
is serving its'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> purpose.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Perhaps one way to increase traffic and pour
more knowledge into the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP-WUG<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> fountain is to make a commitment to try to
answer - say one question<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> a week<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> - even if it's a little time-consuming? I'll
sign up for that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> As for Business Workflow receding and waning as
a skill set - I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> respectfully<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> disagree. It's true there are new tools and new
technologies, but<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> I still<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> see workflow as the workhorse it is.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Sue<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> ----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Susan R. Keohan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP Workflow Specialist<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Enterprise Applications<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Information Services Department<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> MIT Lincoln Laboratory<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> 244 Wood Street, LI-200<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Lexington, MA. 02420<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> 781-981-3561<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> keohan@LL.MIT.EDU<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> From: sap-wug-bounces@mit.edu
[mailto:sap-wug-bounces@mit.edu] On<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Behalf Of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Madgambler<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:04 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> To: SAP Workflow Users' Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Cc: SAP Workflow Users' Group;
sap-wug-request@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Subject: Re: This Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> No point replying to other posts on this thread
as the original<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> message is succinct enough to merit a direct
response.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> I think the attention being paid to this forum
is directly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> proportional to the amount and complexity of
Workflow development<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> being carried out and the depth of Workflow
development experience in<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> the average subscriber.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Now it could be argued that fewer 'new' Workflow
issues being<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> discussed here could mean good or bad things are
happening in the real<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> world. From my personal experience it seems more
likely that SAP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Buisiness Workflow is receding as a tool and
waning as a skillset.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Granted it's more immediately accessible to the
general Client because<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> it's embedded in the standard offering. But are
people pushing the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> boundaries of what it can do or have we hit them
already and that's as<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> far as SAP plan to take it?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> These days the juicier Business Process
Modelling projects are being<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> done in the Composite Environment (Java) arena
and less often in the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> ABAP stack at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> So rather than this Forum losing support I would
actually argue that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Workflow itself has reached a plateau and
stopped evolving. Perhaps<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> only for a while...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Mike GT<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> On 4 May 2010, at 16:48, Nash John
<emailtonash@gmail.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> I get the feeling that this group is slowly
but steadily loosing its<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> significance as I don't see members
active/willing to get involved<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> in discussion/help as it used to be 3 to 4
years ago.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> Nash<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>>
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> SAP-WUG mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> SAP-WUG@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>>
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/sap-wug<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP-WUG mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP-WUG@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/sap-wug<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP-WUG mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SAP-WUG@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/sap-wug<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> SAP-WUG mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> SAP-WUG@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/sap-wug<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>SAP-WUG mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>SAP-WUG@mit.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/sap-wug<o:p></o:p></p>
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