<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV>Hi Barry,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I am starting to really see the point of not having 2 pages associated with a user though - makes a lot of sense, especially tying your biography to your work.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I also think there are two ways to go about finding content on a site: search and browsing. Some people seem to prefer one or the other, so I think we should try our best to support both.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Having some 'recommended' heirarchy of pages will go a long way to structuring the content so that it is browse-able. I think that 80% of people probably would not deviate from it. However, we should emphasize over and over that anyone can edit anything, and that this is only a recommended system, not one that they have to follow. I think if we do a good job of this, then people will be 'encouraged' to edit and contribute to pages. It is all about what we write in the auto-generated pages to get a clear message out to new users.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It may be hard to keep the wiki browse-able, and I don't think we should force it, rather just recommend a naming scheme. I think this really helps new users who might be too overwhelmed by the flexibility of being able to create a new page with a new name almost anywhere. I for one have felt this and have not put up content because I couldn't figure out where best to put it. Having a place where you can start and then move later if you want is nicer I think.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I should mention that a large part of this auto-generated content is to educate new users on what oww can do - both in terms of wiki technology and content structure (with a plug that you can actually do anything with content). Having a nice get-up-to-speed-quick system is also a great tool to attract new users - after all, we have to encourage them to join so that they can generate content, since they can already read anything without an account.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Cheers,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Julius</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><A href="http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks">http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks</A></DIV><DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 23, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Barry Canton wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I'm a big fan of auto-generating content for new users as you guys propose.<BR><BR>It seems to make more intuitive sense for every user to have one main page rather than two different pages for biography and projects. I think I would always want to list my projects on my biography page because they are a very current part of my biography. <BR><BR>Regardless of how user/home pages are implemented, users will still be likely to name pages outside of the user namespace. I actually prefer if content isn't mainly in sub-pages from user pages because it discourages collaboration and comments from the community (I am less likely to edit a page if I feel it's "owned" by someone). <BR><BR>I'm not sure that keeping content in some sort of organized hierarchy in any namespace matters very much given that search is much more efficient on the wiki than browsing. It may be very hard to keep the wiki browseable in the future. <BR><BR><BR>Barry<BR><BR><DIV><SPAN class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <B class="gmail_sendername">Julius Lucks</B> <<A href="mailto:lucks@fas.harvard.edu">lucks@fas.harvard.edu</A>> wrote:</SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <DIV style="">Hey Reshma,<DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I imagined the home pages to be called whatever the User page is, but without the User: namespace prefix - my 'homepage' is just [[Lucks]], and I guess yours would be [[Rshetty]]. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I like your thought about the [[Special:Mypage]] usage and how that simplifies things. But how hard would it be to create another version of [[Special:Mypage]] that would be [[Special:Homepage]] or something that would just point to your homepage? Would you need to create another namespace for the homepages? Just playing devil's advocate here. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>This is totally my opinion, but I like keeping all the scientific content in the same namespace so that the content on the users's project pages is in the same place as the lab's scientific content. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Cheers,</DIV><SPAN class="sg"><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Julius</DIV></SPAN><DIV><SPAN class="q"><BR><DIV> <SPAN style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><A href="http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks </A></DIV><DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><BR></SPAN> </DIV><BR></SPAN><DIV><SPAN class="e" id="q_1121eda2c6c904d1_4"><DIV><DIV>On Apr 23, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Reshma Shetty wrote: </DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Hey all,<BR><BR>I think I agree with Jason that I don't necessarily see a reason for a separate homepage and user page.<BR><BR>Julius, what naming convention did you envision using for naming the homepage? i.e. what would my homepage be called? <BR><BR>One motivation for having the pages all linked from the person's userpage is that it becomes quite easy to encourage good naming conventions...<BR><BR>[[Special:Mypage]] goes to the logged in user's page. <BR> [[Special:Mypage/Projects]] goes to a page off the logged in user's user page.<BR><BR>That way you're not relying on folks typing in a new name for a page by hand and thus generally end up with better page names. (You just say in the how-to ... edit this page: [[Special:Mypage]]). <BR><BR>With regards to the issue of scientific content in the user namespace versus the main namespace ... I am not sure that that matters so much. <BR><BR>-Reshma<BR><BR>PS I agree with Julius that scientific content is not easily browsable or well-organized on OWW. That's why I played around with the page <A href="http://openwetware.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://openwetware.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli</A> last week. All the lists of pages are generated dynamically from the dynamic page list extension based on categories. But this is a topic for a different thread. <BR><BR><DIV><SPAN class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <B class="gmail_sendername">Julius Lucks</B> <<A href="mailto:lucks@fas.harvard.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">lucks@fas.harvard.edu </A>> wrote:</SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <DIV>Hey Jason,<DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Well I guess it is a little subjective, but I would argue for a separate 'Homepage' and User page for the following reasons: </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>* The User page can be used for more personal info like other interests/hobbies, etc - some info on getting to know the oww member behind the science. </DIV><DIV>* The Homepage can be used to focus on the science. </DIV><DIV>* The Homepage serves as a portal for individual project pages: the naming convention for the project pages would be [[Homepage/project_page]] - i.e .,</DIV><DIV>the Homepage name would be the base for all the project pages. Having a separate Homepage in the main wiki namespace I think is more useful than having them all inside the User: namespace since the main name space is where we are having scientific content at the moment. (I guess we could make a namespace for all of these Homepage and project pages.) Also, having the project page fall under a user's Homepage lends some kind of 'ownership' or at least 'foundership' to the project content, even though anyone can contribute at any time. This can be put to good use in advertising to potential new users as a way for them to keep some of the attribution for their work, since I imagine many new users are afraid of losing attribution. Another way to put it is this structure is closer to normal authorship identification of work, and will be more familiar and thus less of a jump for new users to get used to. (Note that of course one could always look into the history logs to see who created a page, but these logs are a complication I don't want to have to introduce to a new potential user.) </DIV><DIV>* If new users can follow the [[Homepage/project_page]] convention, then they automatically start to learn good page naming habits, which is non-trivial given that you can name pages almost anything. </DIV><DIV> * This naming convention also promotes self-organization of a lot of scientific content on OWW which is something I think we need to work on. Just browsing through the site and only navigating through clicking on links (and not typing any URLs), it is non-trivial to get from the front page of oww to some scientific content - at least for me, and I imagine for a new user. Having all this info in one place (with this naming convention) allows users to go to where they are familiar with the structure to look for new content - given that they are used to the structure from their own [[Homepage/project_page]] pages. Having all the info in this structure makes it really easy for us to scrape content and create some navigation pages like: a page that lists all the user Home pages, a page that lists all the projects that are ongoing, etc. </DIV><DIV>* This system is a little bit like the lab Homepage system, but on a user level. Labs can then just link their user Homepages to start to form the lab pages, and people are familiar with lab Homepages which will lessen the learning curve. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Julius</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><SPAN><BR><DIV> <SPAN style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><A href="http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks </A></DIV><DIV>-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><BR></SPAN> </DIV><BR></SPAN><DIV><SPAN><DIV>On Apr 23, 2007, at 1:50 AM, Jason Kelly wrote:</DIV><BR></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">Yeah, I like this idea a lot.<SPAN> </SPAN>Thanks for the good work, guys.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">Putting up some default info about the person, plus simple</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> instructions on how to edit that info will help to 'break the ice' on</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">editing for sure.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">I'm a little unclear on whether you'd want to have a separate UserPage </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">and 'Homepage', rather than just seeding the userpage with the things</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">you described in the Homepage.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">thanks,</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">jason</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">On 4/20/07, Julius Lucks <<A href="mailto:lucks@fas.harvard.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> lucks@fas.harvard.edu</A>> wrote:</DIV> </SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">Hi All,</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">Vincent and I have been thinking a lot about how to get oww members to </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">contribute more content so that we can grow the existing oww community, and</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">attract new members by pointing to high quality examples of content on oww.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> One of the things that struck us is that there doesn't seem to be an easy</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">way for a complete wiki novice to get into editing.<SPAN> </SPAN>The existing welcome</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> email is very long and has many links for people to follow and I think it is</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">confusing to a novice.<SPAN> </SPAN>Also I have spent some time browsing around OWW and</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> it seems hard for someone completely new to the site to find content by just</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">surfing around.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">So Vincent and I want to propose a new welcome system that involves</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">automatically creating a 'Home page' for new users when their account is </DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">created.<SPAN> </SPAN>I'll give you all the reasons why we think this is a good idea,</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">but to see for yourself, please look at our mock Home page at </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"><A href="http://www.openwetware.org/wiki/OpenWetWare:Steering_committee/Outreach_chairs/mock_" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://www.openwetware.org/wiki/OpenWetWare:Steering_committee/Outreach_chairs/mock_</A>Home_page</DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">or the one I am playing around with for myself at </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"><A href="http://www.openwetware.org/wiki/Lucks" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.openwetware.org/wiki/Lucks </A></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">The idea is that every user has 3 pages made for them when their account is</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">created: the typical User page, a Home page, and a sample project page (more </DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">about this one below).<SPAN> </SPAN>The User page can be used to show more personal</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">information, but the idea behind the Home page is to give people a hands-on </DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">quick introduction to the wiki-way in terms of their own academic projects.</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">The Home page is set up in such a way as to provide both an introduction, </DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">and an example system for how people might think about posting their</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">academic content.<SPAN> </SPAN>Being an experienced user, I often find that wiki's give </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">too much freedom in the choice of page and section names, formatting</DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">options, etc.<SPAN> </SPAN>The Home page would give users something to work off of </DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">rather than having to come up with a system on their own.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">The Home page also has a section listing seperate project pages for </DIV><DIV><SPAN><DIV style="margin: 0px;">individual projects.<SPAN> </SPAN>The third page automatically created is a sample</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">project page that gives a skeleton outline of what kind of info it would be </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">good to have in describing a project on the wiki.<SPAN> </SPAN>The idea is the same here</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">- that people can just start to fill this out instead of having to come up </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">with some system on their own.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">I'm not sure about the technical difficulties of creating these pages, but </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">this is something along the lines of Reshma's recent suggestion of filling</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">in the User page.<SPAN> </SPAN>The benefits of this system we think are as follows: </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">* hands on introduction to the wiki for a new users OWN content rather than</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">a standard tutorial page that they would have to read and then apply to a </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">page they create</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">* having tutorial info on the page gives the user an incentive to start</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">editing and personalizing right away (to remove the tutorial info) </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">* having a scaffold of pages is much easier for someone to handle than</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">having a blank slate - we can emphasize that they can customize at any time</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> * the scaffold promotes good naming conventions and structuring of content</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">on the wiki - if everyone did this it could help people find information</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">easier because they would be automatically familiar with how other people </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">structure their content from knowing how they do their own</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">* this is more along the lines of what scientists need.<SPAN> </SPAN>Wikipedia works</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> well because ALL the articles are in theory collaborated on by everyone, and</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">a simple User page suffices to identify someone.<SPAN> </SPAN>Scientists work on many</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> projects and so need a place to put specific information about these</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">projects in a place where they have at least semi-ownership to acknowledge</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">that they are the principle person on the project, even though others may </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">edit.<SPAN> </SPAN>I think having a project page system like this is more along the</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">lines of what people think of now in their non-wiki science and how they</DIV> <DIV style="margin: 0px;">might use a private wiki if they have one.<SPAN> </SPAN>This makes it an easier</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">transition into opening up the data and might facilitate faster content</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> migration from the private wikis to the public one.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">* the system is flexible and we can think of a way for people to easily hook</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">into lab websites and what not, but this allows someone not affiliated with </DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">an OWW lab to get going easily</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">The mock page could use some work, but I hope you all can give some good</DIV> <DIV style="margin: 0px;">feedback on the general concept.</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">Cheers,</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> Julius and Vincent</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"><A href="http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Lucks</A></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">-----------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> OpenWetWare Steering Committee Mailing List</DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"><A href="mailto:sc@openwetware.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sc@openwetware.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px;"> <A href="http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc</A></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <BR></DIV><DIV style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><BR></DIV> </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>OpenWetWare Steering Committee Mailing List <BR><A href="mailto:sc@openwetware.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sc@openwetware.org</A><BR><A href="http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>OpenWetWare Steering Committee Mailing List <BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sc@openwetware.org">sc@openwetware.org</A><BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc" target="_blank"> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-sc</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear="all"><BR>-- <BR>Barry Canton<BR>Endy Lab<BR>Biological Engineering Division<BR>Massachusetts Institute of Technology<BR><BR>Tel.:(617) 899 6062 <BR>Email1: <A href="mailto:bcanton@mit.edu">bcanton@mit.edu</A><BR>Email2: <A href="mailto:bcanton@gmail.com">bcanton@gmail.com</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>