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Joe,<br>
<br>
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope before you started your
lengthy exposition you were aware that I am not "convinced my leaders"
are right. I have no leaders in Lebanon. I stated that clearly. I said
both sides are at fault while reiterating my condemnation for HA's use
of force. When both sides are at fault, the details become less
relevant. I only hope in claiming that both sides are wrong does not
according to the instincts of both parties make them hostile to me.<br>
<br>
As to your main theme, I think you are incorrect and overly
presumptuous in claiming to know who wants war and peace, and that
disarming HA can not be done by dialog. It can, once major obstacles
such as fundamental questions about our identity and power structure
are resolved. Otherwise what is your alternative, war? No thanks. <br>
<br>
In any event, if you wish to continue this chain we should do so in private as we have gone deep into the realm of opinion.<br><br><blockquote><hr>From: jkhoury@MIT.EDU<br>To: abitdodgy@hotmail.com; antonio.tamer@gmail.com<br>CC: dimanajjar@gmail.com; lebanon-articles@mit.edu<br>Subject: Re: [LCM Articles] Four Days that changed the Middle East<br>Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 23:52:07 -0400<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial">After reading all your thoughts, I thought I'd let you
know what I think.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Every Lebanese citizen grows in his specific community and
thus has a biased way of thinking. It is of no coincidence that people of a
particular sect most probably are "convinced" that their leader is the right
one. This comes from being brainwashed for all the years that your leader is
right, and the opposite sect is wrong. After years and years of growing up in
such a community, it becomes very hard for the child to change his opinion when
he grows up, and that is especially true to the uneducated citizens that can't
think on their own. </font><font face="Arial">This is very unfortunate, but I
fully understand when a person says he is "convinced" that his leader is right,
and that his leader's choices are the only logical choices.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I grew up in Lebanon, and I was lucky enough not to be
brainwashed about neither politics nor hate against other religions. Therefore,
being a very unbiased person, I was able to make up my mind.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">As an unbiased person currently studying in the US, my way
of thinking has become even more liberal. The way I look at Lebanese politics
overlooks small details, such as someone from this sect brutally killed another
guy from this sect, or someone blew the other person's on fire and so
on.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I try to see the future of the country and my position in
it. Looking at the bigger picture, I don't see the parties as Hezbollah or any
specific March 14 group. I see about their principles and actions, and how these
affect me. To me, I believe in peace, unity, prosperity, and a good life.
Looking at the two parties, I noticed the following:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Hezbollah: We don't care if peace is better economically
for Lebanon, We don't care if other people believe Lebanon should be like other
Arab countries. Israel has killed my family in 1982, and I will never give up
even if we have to sacrifice ourselves for the cause. We will fight them no
matter what.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">This reminds me of a Palestinian friend that I talked to
last year. I asked him: No one denies that Israel had no right to come to your
land in 1948, but no one denies that there is no way you can wipe it off the
map. So, a</font><font face="Arial">ssume Israel told you now that they are
willing to do a peaceful two-state solution, would you accept? He said: No, I
prefer to keep fighting than accepting, because that is a "shitty" deal for us,
as they still have half of our land. I replied: Yes, but right now, you are in a
"shittier" position, with barely any land at all. Since you know you can't take
them out, you have to choose the best solution available right now. What do you
choose? Shit or Shittier? He said: I prefer to choose shittier, since at least I
have my honor. I replied: Well, I definitely know now why a solution may never
exist, but now, I am very surprised as to why you keep nagging about a better
situation. Since you know that you can't take Israel out, and you insist that
honor is of utmost importance, then the solution is impossible, and while you
keep that way your thinking, don’t be surprised if your country's situation
never ameliorates.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">This story is highly relevant to the current situation.
When I hear Hezbollah say: I don't care about the well being of my country, they
killed my family! They conquered us for many years! I will never accept a peace
deal with these Zionists. I will keep fighting, even it means sacrificing
myself in the name of the cause!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">After hearing Nasrallah's speeches, I can't help but
notice the resemblance to my friend's case. The difference however is very
important. In Palestine, the Palestinians agree on fighting Israel till death,
but in Lebanon, only Hezbollah feels that way. We all see Israel as an enemy,
but the majority would much prefer if we were in some sort of
peace.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I'll ask you a question: about 95% of Israel's borders are
with Egypt and Jordan. After the 1967 war, they directly did peace deals with
the Israelis, choosing peace and prosperity over honor, honor which leads them
to poverty and fanaticism. I wonder why Lebanon, who shares only about 2% of its
borders with Israel, and definitely the militarily weakest among
all other Arab countries, should be the one to feel the lack of dignity
when it comes to accepting Israel as a major force in the region.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Even if people still believe that it's a worthy cause,
what right do they have to impose their beliefs on the rest of the Lebanese
people?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I summarize March 8 and March 14 as two parties: Those who
believe that Israel is an enemy worthy of indefinitely fighting for the sake of
honor, ( I won't say security because look at Egypt and Jordan, they're
perfectly secure since their peace deals in 1967). And those who acknowledges
that Israel is an enemy, but believe that the cause is unworthy to sacrifice the
peace and prosperity of a whole country. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">In other words, if you are a bear sharing a lion's
cage, would you want to be his friend and live peacefully, or do you prefer
fighting a guaranteed death in the name of honor? Of course this analogy
is not perfect, but I see a very important point. The US, UN, Europe and almost
everyone are the great powers of the world. We must accept that. It's a fact.
Almost everyone acknowledges it and desides that it's of their best interest to
be on their friendly side, for the sake of their economy as well as
international standing. Are we really that powerful to be the
exception?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Therefore, I disagree with Hezebolla for many
reasons:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"> - I believe the cause is unworthy
to live in poverty and be recognized as a terrorist organization by ALL
countries except for Syria and Iran.<br> - I also believe that
even if they feel that way, they are allowed to do so, but in no way are they
allowed to force that way of thinking on all Lebanese, thus forcing them
into war whenever they please.<br> - Having unbalanced
arms creates threats and eliminates democracy, as was exactly proved in the past
days. The only reason the Government backed up on its decision is
because Hezebolla had his weapons in the middle of Beirut, threatening
to attack the Government's Palace if they don't change their decision.
If that is not using weapons to influence by threatening, then I don't know what
is.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I can go on talking about this forever, but to conclude, I
will go into current small details to further fortify my point</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">- Saying that Hezbolla's weapons can be removed through
dialogue is impossible, as they already tried that many times before and
always came out to no conclusion. Even a few days ago, we hear Nasrallah saying:
" the one who touches our weapons will have his hands cut" is a big indication
that this is impossible.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">- Saying that their weapons are only external is complete
non-sense, as they will definitely use them in case of a war against fellow
citizens, and that was proven in the last few days.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">In conclusion, I am in no way saying that March 14 is
perfect, and even a bad choice by some, but when the option is between a bad
choice and a much worse choice, I'll definitely be rational and choose the bad
choice, instead of dying in the name of honor and dignity.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Joe</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="mailto:abitdodgy@hotmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:abitdodgy@hotmail.com">Mohamad El-Husseini</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<div style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:44 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="antonio.tamer@gmail.com" href="mailto:antonio.tamer@gmail.com">antonio tamer</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="mailto:dimanajjar@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:dimanajjar@gmail.com">Dima Najjar</a> ; <a title="mailto:lebanon-articles@mit.edu
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:lebanon-articles@mit.edu">lebanon-articles@mit.edu</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [LCM Articles] Four Days that changed the Middle
East</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>I was not making a generalization. I stated a fact that both
sides engaged and are engaging in warfare. Who "started it" is of no
consequence. To portray one side as peaceful and the other as brute aggressors
is misleading, and indeed for naive ears. The fact that one side was swiftly
defeated does not mean it has preference for dialog--perhaps after the fact, as
that is an easy choice to make. I highlighted this not to get a "faulty point"
across, but to reinforce what I stated above. <br><br>Also, I would like to
remind you that I am not taking sides. I'm neutral and honest in saying neither
March 8 or March 14 are capable of promoting good governance and nationhood. I
would never vote for either block.<br><br>In all of your critique of my friend's
quote you make the assumption that March 14 are a government. March 14 are not a
government; March 14 are sect leaders. Lebanon has no government and has no
president. Lebanon has sect leaders. <br><br>There are fundamental problems
afflicting Lebanon that are far more pressing than HAs telecommunications
network, and in their resolution an easier way may emerge to disarm HA and
remove other obstacles to the state.<br><br>March 14 are not the reason Syrian
occupation ended. The people are. The politicians of March 14 do not own the
events of the "Cedar Revolution ". In fact, if anything, they sold it during the
first election post Syrian hegemony.<br><br>And I disagree: Very little progress
has been made. We still have corruption, poverty, economic crisis, no president,
no electoral law, economic woes, etc... only now we are free to be corrupt
without asking for permission first.<br><br>Finally, yes, HA has a violent
record. And so do the dinosaurs of March 14, even if they "love
life."<br><br><br>
<blockquote>
<hr>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:05:54 -0400<br>From: antonio.tamer@gmail.com<br>To:
abitdodgy@hotmail.com<br>Subject: Re: [LCM Articles] Four Days that changed
the Middle East<br>CC: patrickz@mit.edu; dimanajjar@gmail.com;
lebanon-articles@mit.edu<br><br>Please allow me to remind you Mohamad that the
actions of one handful of angry (and obviously enraged) people do not make for
a generalization.<br><br>This kind of reference to war atrocity does not
necessarily grant you immediate access to one's ears - except maybe the naive
and unexpecting. I've seen the videos and am appalled by them, but this tactic
of yours is not very ethical - ie, to appeal to one's humane and sensible side
in order to get an unrelated (or faulty) point across.<br><br>Let's look at
what you said:<br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">"a
semi-government that lacks the representation of one of Lebanon's major
sects, whose legitimacy and constitutionality are seriously
questioned,<br></blockquote>As far as I remember, the opposition (HA) resigned
from the government. Also, HA is disrupting llife in every single day. The
government may not be the best one to have ever been around(trust me, I have
concerns about where it is leading Lebanon), but it is definitely better than
what Syria had in place at the time it retreated.instead of normal
participation, we see this detachement and frustration at the increased
political (oh and peaceful, despite that atrocious reference of yours) success
of March 14 and the government. To be able to kick an occupying and
terrorizing country (syria) out like that with just demonstrations and
organizations, that is impressive.<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">in the heat of
daily Israeli threats of a new war on HA and Lebanon<br></blockquote>If I
remember well, the provocations have been coming from HA's side, not Israel.
The warmongering and drums of waar have been one-directional (until HA's
provication of Israel in July 2006). In what could've been Lebanon's best
chance of peace, the lebanese (in all arrogance) declared victory when Israel
pulled out of most of Lebanon. And let's leave the shibaa farms out of this
debate, there is no Shibaa farms until Syria - an ally of HA - decides so. Oh
do you see here the sole justification for HA's persistance??<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">weeks after the
assassination of HA's military commander<br></blockquote>Let me remind you
that this happened in Syria and the so-called commander is labelled terrorist
elsewhere. I suggest you dig up some bio.<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">against the
advise of the army command<br></blockquote>Army command? What advice? The army
is there to protect, not dictate. I surely hope you're not hinting at the idea
of a military authority, and if you indeed are, could you remind me of the
last military regime that YOU think was successful? In either case, the
lebanese political system surely was not designed for this kind of army
command nonsense. No thanks!<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">in the absence of
a president and in its final dying hours<br></blockquote>This, we all know, is
due to the increasing irritation of HA and Aoun's bloc to achieve any single
political victory. Instead, they refer to disruption of life, armed attacks
and assaults as well as demanding to be given rights (no, it's VETO) beyond
what is reasonable or acceptable.<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">takes the
unprecedented step of outlawing HA's communication network, fully aware of
the sensitivity of the issue<br></blockquote>This, I may agree with you on
except I never saw any governmental decree or national consensus (without
"sisterly" pressure) that HA has been granted the right to establish a
communication network. As far as HA's weapons, well this story is settled. at
least for me. I'm sorry if I won't go in that dirty path of changing your
perspective on what you should well be aware of at this point. <br><br>So
having chopped up your friend's brilliant quote, I ask you: What about
it?<br><br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">Finally, at risk
of offending people, none of Lebanon's traditional parties ever
preferred dialog had they a to use violence. The illustrious history of our
political class and 18 years of butchery by the same people who rule today
speaks for itself...<br></blockquote>I completely agree with you on that one -
those in power have a strong history of violence, that's true. But can you see
some positive change at least? Can you see that the pro-gov camp is not
willing to fight? granted, there are a couple of MK's in the mountains, but
that is just tradition and/or dinosaurs from the civil war. Just to keep
things in perspective: HA <u><b>has</b></u> a history of violence, and
persistence of violence, and has been exclusively targetting civilians in
Israel, Lebanon, Germany and South America without one single <u><b>noble
</b></u>military victory. This is disgusting.<br><br>
<div class="EC_EC_gmail_quote">On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Mohamad El-Husseini
<<a title="mailto:abitdodgy@hotmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:abitdodgy@hotmail.com">abitdodgy@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Patrick,<br> <br>I would be remiss not
to direct your attention to a graphic video the contents
of which I advise against viewing. If you are not familiar, it captures the
gruesome torture and murder of 10 SSNP members in Halba. In addition to
being tortured as they took their dying breaths, their limbs were
hacked and their bodies left to the disposal of their murderers,
who wasted no time indulging in gratuitous gore. Not only is
this reminiscent of what happened in Nahr El Bared, but it should cast
a doubt on the theory that one side prefers dialog to the
other.<br> <br>I condemn HA's actions, and their use of force was
criminal and irresponsible. But it has not gone unanswered, even if the
balance of power leans heavily to one side: the route of government
partisans is not indicative of their preference for dialog. They were
over-powered. <br> <br>To quote a friend, "a semi-government that lacks
the representation of one of Lebanon's major sects, whose legitimacy and
constitutionality are seriously questioned, in the midst of internal
turmoil, in the heat of daily Israeli threats of a new war on HA and
Lebanon, weeks after the assassination of HA's military commander, against
the advise of the army command, in the absence of a president and in its
final dying hours, takes the unprecedented step of outlawing HA's
communication network, fully aware of the sensitivity of the
issue."<br><br><br><br>Finally, at risk of offending people, none of
Lebanon's traditional parties ever preferred dialog had they a to use
violence. The illustrious history of our political class and 18 years of
butchery by the same people who rule today speaks for
itself...<br> <br>The war never ended, it was just bandaged and the
binds are loosening once more.<br><br>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:26:44
-0400<br>> From: <a href="mailto:patrickz@MIT.EDU">patrickz@MIT.EDU</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:dimanajjar@gmail.com">dimanajjar@gmail.com</a><br>> CC: <a href="mailto:lebanon-articles@MIT.EDU">lebanon-articles@MIT.EDU</a><br>>
Subject: Re: [LCM Articles] Four Days that changed the Middle East
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="EC_EC_Wj3C7c"><br>> <br>> Rima,<br>> A quick comment on the
fresh view you mentioned.<br>> First, I had a chance to listen to Rami
Khoury talk at the Kennedy School of<br>> Government at Harvard last
year, and I have to say that Rami is very much a<br>> Hizballah
apologist. While he tried to portray himself as neutral and discuss<br>>
both sides of the conflict, it was very apparent what his political
sentiments<br>> were.<br>> As such, I would very much take the article
with a grain of salt. While<br>> Hizballah did achieve a military victory
of some sorts, I believe that it lost<br>> something much more valuable,
the respect of all non-shiite Lebanese who now<br>> see it as an
instrument of Iran, Syria, and Shiite dominance.<br>> I believe the
government made a key decision not to deploy its opwn gunmen or<br>> the
Internal Security Forces (ISF) who number in the 10,000 and are <br>>
composed of<br>> mainly Sunni and Christian. That would have put a strong
counter attack to<br>> Hizballah, at the expense of starting a new civil
war. Fortunately some (i.e.<br>> NOT March 8) are still committed to the
principles of negotiation through<br>> dialogue, not violence.<br>>
Where this will take us, I don't know. While this is part of a U.S. vs.
Iran<br>> power play (as the Hizballah likes to portray it), it is also
an Iran <br>> vs. Saudi<br>> Arabia play (Shiite vs. Sunni) and
another effort by Syria to remain relevant,<br>> regain influence in
Lebanon and retain its tool of applying pressure on Israel<br>> to get
the Golan's back.<br>> Let's be realistic when we talk about this
situation. It's about people with<br>> guns who don't want to give up
their guns, and want to be the big boys and the<br>> bullies of the
block.<br>> I welcome your thoughts and opinions on the matter!<br>>
ciao<br>> Patrick<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Quoting Dima Najjar
<<a href="mailto:dimanajjar@gmail.com">dimanajjar@gmail.com</a>>:<br>>
<br>> > A fresh view..<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Click
the following to access the sent link:<br>> ><br>> > Four days
that changed the Middle East<br>> > <<a href="http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10" target="_blank">http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10</a>><br>>
><br>> ><br>> > Or copy and paste the following link in your
browser address bar:<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > <<a href="http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10" target="_blank">http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10</a>><br>>
><br>> > <a href="http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10" target="_blank">http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?article_ID=91914&categ_ID=5&edition_id=10</a><br>>
><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > *<br>> > *<br>>
><br>> > *Abstract:*<br>> ><br>> > Events in Beirut and
other parts of Lebanon continue to move erratically,<br>> > with
simultaneous gestures of political compromise and armed clashes that<br>>
> have left 46 dead in the past week. The consequences of what has
happened in<br>> > the past week may portend an extraordinary but
constructive new development:<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>>
> --<br>> > Dima Najjar<br>> > +97150 413 4343<br>>
><br>> <br>> <br>>
_______________________________________________<br>> Lebanon-Articles
mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Lebanon-Articles@mit.edu">Lebanon-Articles@mit.edu</a><br>>
<a href="http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/lebanon-articles" target="_blank">http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/lebanon-articles</a><br><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Lebanon-Articles
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lebanon-Articles@mit.edu">Lebanon-Articles@mit.edu</a><br><a href="http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/lebanon-articles" target="_blank">http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/lebanon-articles</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Antonio Tamer.<br>508 361 5943 </blockquote>
<BR><hr>
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