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<div class=Section1>
<h2><font size=5 face="Trebuchet MS"><span lang=EN style='font-size:18.0pt'>Fmr.
Israeli Air Force Captain Reports Israeli Pilots Deliberately Missing Targets
Over Concerns of Civilian Casualties</span><o:p></o:p></font></h2>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wednesday,
August 9th, 2006</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/09/1422204</span></font><span
lang=EN> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Former
Israeli Air Force Captain Yonatan Shapira reports at least two Israeli fighter
pilots have reportedly deliberately missed bombing targets in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> because they were concerned
they were being ordered to bomb civilians. Yonatan's brother refused to serve
in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
earlier this week, and was sent to jail. [includes rush transcript]</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:country-region w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Israel</span></font></st1:country-region><span
lang=EN> is considering a further expansion of its attack on <st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region> amidst a rising death toll and
humanitarian crisis and opponents of the war in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> have become increasingly
vocal. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>More
than 100 demonstrations have taken place across the country since the fighting
began last month. Over 5,000 protesters marched In Tel Aviv last Saturday in
one of the largest demonstrations in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> since the attacks began.
Protestors called on <st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region>
to negotiate with Hezbollah and encouraged Israeli soldiers to disobey orders
in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Meanwhile,
The Observer newspaper recently reported that at least two Israeli fighter
pilots have deliberately missed bombing targets in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> because they were concerned
they were being ordered to bomb civilians. The Observer also reported that a
senior commander who has been involved in air attacks in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> has raised concerns that
the air force's actions might be considered "war crimes." </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Yonatan
Shapira joins us on the line from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> -- he is a former Captain in
the Israeli Air Force reserves. In 2003, Yonatan initiated the group of Israeli
Air Force pilots who refused to fly attack missions that might risk civilian
population in the Palestinian territories. He is also the co-founder of the
organization Combatants for Peace. Yonatan's brother refused to serve in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
earlier this week, and was sent to jail. </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>We
also speak with Dan Tamir, an intelligence Officer with the IDF's Reserves and
an activist with Yesh Gvul - an Israeli peace group that supports soldiers who
refuse military assignments. </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<ul style='margin-top:0cm' type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Yonatan Shapira</span></font></b><span lang=EN>, a former Captain in
the Israeli Air Force reserves. In 2003 Yonatan initiated the group of
Israeli Air Force pilots who refused to fly attack missions on Palestinian
territories. He is also the co-founder of the organization <a
href="http://www.combatantsforpeace.org"
title="http://www.combatantsforpeace.org">Combatants for Peace</a>. </span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Dan Tamir</span></font></b><span lang=EN>, activist with <a
href="http://www.yeshgvul.org" title="http://www.yeshgvul.org">Yesh Gvul</a>
- an Israeli peace group that supports soldiers who refuse military
assignments. He is an intelligence Officer with the Israeli Defense Force
Reserves. </span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a name=transcript><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>RUSH TRANSCRIPT</span></font></a><span
lang=EN> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yonatan Shapira
is with us, on the line from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
He’s a former captain in the Israeli Air Force reserve. In 2003, Yonatan
initiated a group of Israeli Air Force pilots who refused to fly attack
missions that might risk civilian populations in the Palestinian territories.
He’s co-founder of the group Combatants for Peace. Yonatan’s
brother refused to serve in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
and earlier this week was sent to jail. We welcome you back to <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Democracy Now!</span></i> Yonatan Shapira was in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">New York</st1:State></st1:place> in the last few
weeks, and we had him on <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Democracy Now!</span></i>
Welcome, Yonatan. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Good
morning. The line is not so good, but I can hear you. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>What's happened
to your brother? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>I
can’t hear you now. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>What has
happened to your brother? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>The line is
not working. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Can you tell us
about your brother? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yeah. If you
can hear me, my brother just entered to jail yesterday afternoon, after telling
his commander -- after asking him why he refused to go to <st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region>, my brother told him that he's doing so
for the security of the citizens of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place>. And my brother is also a
member of Combatants for Peace, and by now, we have two members of our
organization sitting in jail for refusing to participate in this war in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
On June 5, the total number of refuseniks that are sitting in jail for refusing
to go to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
are five, and we have many who are waiting for trials and waiting for being
sent to jail. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>We're also
joined on the phone by Dan Tamir. He is with the Israeli peace group, Yesh
Gvul, a group that supports soldiers who refuse military assignments. He's an
intelligence officer with the Israeli Defense Force reserves. We welcome you to
<i><span style='font-style:italic'>Democracy Now!</span></i> from <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:City></st1:place>. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Good morning, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">New York</st1:State></st1:place>. Good morning,
democracy. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>It is very good
to have you with us. You're an intelligence officer with the Israeli Defense
Force reserves. Are you going to serve in this war with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Until now, I have
not been called personally to take part in this war, and I hope I won't be
called personally, but there are many other officers and soldiers who were
called to this war and, as Yonatan said before, many have said that they are
not going to take part in what they see is an unnecessary bloodshed. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>What would it
mean if you refused? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Well, I have
already twice told my commanders that I’m not willing to carry out such
mobilization orders. The first time was in 2001, and the second time in 2004. That
time, it was considering going into military regime at the <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Occupied</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Territories</st1:PlaceType>
in Judea and <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Samaria</st1:City></st1:place>.
Personally, I refused twice, and I was sent twice to jail for one month every
time, although it doesn't have to be like this. Some people just say, “We
are not going,” and their commanders just let them go. I must emphasize
maybe that going to jail is not some kind of an aim for itself. Some people are
sent to jail, but many others are being just dismissed. This is why the actual
number of refuseniks, of people who refuse to take actions, is actually much
higher than the number of people actually sitting in jail. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>What do you
mean? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>I mean that there
are many people, many soldiers and officers, who say, “We are not
going,” and since the Israeli military is the -- how should I put it? --
doesn’t have the strongest disciplines, many people are just being
dismissed by their officers telling them, “Okay, don't come this year.
We'll call you in a few months,” just in order not to make such a big
fuss out of this whole issue. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Are you willing
to go to jail again? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>If I would be
again given any kind of an order to do things I find illegal, immoral and
useless, I would rather go to jail, rather than do such things, which are
contradicting the basic interest of the state of Israel. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Do you have an
estimate of the numbers of soldiers or people in the reserves who are saying
no? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>DAN TAMIR: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Well, I can give
you a few fixed numbers. Since the beginning of the Second Intifada, that means
in the last five years, we had at least 160 people who were refusing and were
sent to jail. We know about many others who declared their refusal but were not
sent to any kind of incarceration or imprisonment. And we assume there are
many, many others who found all kinds of excuses, beginning with physical
problems, medical problems and ending with psychological problems or any kind
of other excuses, not to go into military service. So, I estimate it in the few
thousands, maybe even more. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yonatan Shapira,
you are a former captain in the Israeli Air Force reserves, your brother now in
jail, jailed this week. There's an article in the <i><span style='font-style:
italic'>New York Times</span></i> today, a very sweeping article, headlined
"Left or Right, Israelis are Pro-War." Your response. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yes, first
of all, it's very sad that indeed the majority of Israelis are now supporting
the war. I think there are many reasons for that. Probably people are in some
condition of being fear-stricken by the institutions. They don't get all the
information. The media here is very, very biased. They don't see what you can
see in the Amy Goodman show in <st1:State w:st="on">New York</st1:State>, many
thousands of kilometers from the <st1:place w:st="on">Middle East</st1:place>.
They see mostly what the Israeli military propaganda and the Israeli government
wants them to see, and it's very sad, and I think this is part of the reason
that we see this kind of support. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>But
it's important for me to say that, for example, last Saturday, we were 10,000
people in the center of Tel Aviv, demonstrating together, Jews and Arabs
together, shouting that we refuse to be enemies. And we are going to do another
demonstration next Saturday in front of the jail, where my brother and his
friends are sitting, and I’m inviting all the international media to see
what these people and the resistance in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> to this war is doing. I can
tell you some facts and some things that happened also within the Air Force, if
you are interested. </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Go ahead. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yeah. I just
spoke to some friends in the Air Force, an F-15 pilot, and he told me an
interesting thing. He told me that since the third day of this war, they are
waiting for Bush to stop the war. They also understand that they are playing
some kind of role in this whole big war of interests between major forces, not
just <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place>
and not just Hezbollah. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Also
he tells me that they are not counting anymore on intelligence. Sometimes they
see -- you know, they get the coordinates, and they see a house in their
target, and they prefer to shoot beside the house, because they don't know.
Maybe there are civilians, maybe there are innocent people sleeping there.
Sometimes this intelligence are being based on the fact that <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> told those civilians to
evacuate their villages, and then afterwards, they just tell the pilots to bomb
some houses then. And I know that more and more pilots are feeling very, very
uncomfortable with this situation. And we are waiting for the first pilot to
refuse to do these crimes and to help us, Israelis and Arabs in this region, to
stop this crazy war. </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Now, Yonatan
Shapira, this is very significant, what the <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Guardian</span></i>
newspaper was talking about and also quoting you about this: at least two
Israeli fighter pilots deliberately missing bombing targets in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
because they were concerned they were being ordered to bomb civilians. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yeah, I know
that -- I guess there are several of them. I spoke with one of them, who told
me especially of one case that he just got a target -- it was a house on a hill
-- and he just didn't want to shoot at the house, and he shot beside the house,
and later on, the commanders told him that it’s okay. And my question is,
you know, if they can give pilots a target, and later on when the pilot is not
shooting the house and telling him that it's okay, you know, what is all this
idea behind those missions, if, you know, you can shoot the house, you can not
shoot the house? I think there is a problem, you know, spilling behind all
these missions that these pilots are getting. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>And
just so you know, as pilot, I’m not a fighter pilot. I was a helicopter
pilot, and I didn't shoot anyone, but I know, just like most of the people can
understand, a fighter pilot is flying up in the sky, thousands of feet above
the ground. He cannot see people. He cannot see -- he can maybe see some dots,
something on the screen inside the cockpit, but he cannot know whether there are
civilians or enemies, or, you know, that the truck is bringing missiles or
bringing kids. And if now we see that pilots cannot trust the system, I think
it's a sign that maybe, maybe in the near future, some of them will speak out,
not just quietly and continue to serve, but to speak out to the world to help
us to stop this war. </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>Yonatan Shapira,
you come from an Air Force family, from an Air Force neighborhood in a suburb
of Tel Aviv. What is the response? I mean, your father served, your brothers,
now one of them in jail. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>YONATAN SHAPIRA: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>You know,
it's really, really not easy to be now in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> against the war. My family,
they're near to Tel Aviv. My parents’ house is full with two families
that came from the north, one from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Haifa</st1:City></st1:place>
and one from a village next to Nahariya, where they were hit by a Katyusha in
their garden. And all these people are, you know, given shelter in the center
and now waiting for this war to be end. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>And
I know that also some of them understand that this war is not going to end if
we don't do something about that. And although the majority, as you just
mentioned, is against us, is against the resistance in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place>, in favor of the war, we
must do it also for these people, because they don't have all the information.
They don't have the possibility to see the reality as -- </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>AMY GOODMAN: </span></font></b><span lang=EN>I want to thank
you both for being with us, Dan Tamir, activist with Yesh Gvul; and Yonatan
Shapira, one of the co-founders of Combatants for Peace. His brother this week
was jailed for refusing to fight in the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> war.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'><!--
<HR>
<CENTER><SMALL>Copyright © 2006
- Democracy Now!, All Rights Reserved</SMALL></CENTER>
<HR>
-->www.democracynow.org</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p style='background:#F0F0F0'><span dir=RTL></span><font size=1 color="#333333"
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=AR-SA dir=RTL style='font-size:8.5pt;
color:#333333'><span dir=RTL></span> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>http://www.lebnanews.com/2006/08/another_idf_obj.html</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<h2 style='mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:12.75pt;margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:11.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F0F0F0'><font size=1
color="#cc6600" face="Trebuchet MS"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC6600;
text-transform:uppercase'>07 August 2006</span></font><o:p></o:p></h2>
<h3 style='mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:11.25pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;
margin-left:11.25pt;background:#F0F0F0'><b><font size=4 color="#990000"
face="Trebuchet MS"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#990000;font-weight:
bold'>ANOTHER IDF OBJECTOR JAILED</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></h3>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><em><b><i><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333;font-weight:bold'>Lebnanews speaks to the second Israeli refusnik
of the 2006 conflict<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></em></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>In 1982, it took over half a year for Israeli officers and
soldiers to begin refusing draft and orders to enter into <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>. In the beginning of the
Al-Aqsa intifada, several months elapsed before the first letter of defiance
was handed in. But in 2006, three weeks into the war, First Sergeant Zohar
Milchgrub is entering imprisonment today (Sunday) for refusing to be drafted to
a reserve force set to enter <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
. He is the second Israeli soldier in a week to become a conscientious objector
to the new war. We spoke to him after the anti-war rally in Tel Aviv on
Saturday.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><em><i><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>(picture of Zohar Milchgrub)</span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Our first question would be to which part of the army you
belong.<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>An ordinary infantry combat unit. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>When did you first decide to refuse to draft? <o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>I made the decision to refuse further service during my active
service in the IDF. It was very clear for me that i won't be heading back to
the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Occupied</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Territories</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACENAME u1:st="on"></ST1:PLACENAME></ST1:PLACE>The
decision to refuse to serve in this war was as natural as refusing to serve in
the Territories. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Would you say that the approach of the Israeli public to this
war is different to its approach to the occupation?<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>First of all, the pro-war sentiments and the exhilaration in the
media have definetly had their effect. Society is following the call without
any qualms or reservations. Even people who consider themselves to be on the
Left, my own family. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Are people more motivated to serve in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> than in the OPT? </span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Absolutely. A close friend of mine is in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place> <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE>with
his unit as we speak. You need to remember that the breach of [Israeli]
sovereignty, the raid over the border, all this was very problematic. However,
we need to be looking at the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is that <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
<ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"></ST1:PLACE>is a country that we should be talking to. If
we have even the slightest hope of ending all of this, we need to speak to <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region></st1:place>
<ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE>,
and we need to speak even to Hezbollah. We really do believe that this is
possible – proper Lebanese sovereignity on all Lebanese lands and a peace
agreement with <st1:country-region w:st="on">Lebanon</st1:country-region> <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>which,
God willing, will be linked somehow to peace agreements with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Syria</st1:country-region></st1:place> and with the Palestinians.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>How is the Left camp in Israël responding to the war?</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>I don't want to speak in the name of the entire Left –
and, anyway, I think the real Left are the people here, at this rally. Sadly,
people on the Israeli Left need to see casualties before they start
demonstrating against the war. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Israeli casualties?<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Well, I wouldn't want to say that they don't care about other
casualties, but there is a greater sensitivity to Israeli casualties, which is
a great pity. Nevertheless, we see people joining and our numbers growing every
week – this is a part of an ongoing war: people are beginning to sober up
from their illusions. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><strong><b><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>How long do you expect to spend in prison?<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>As less as possible, maybe around a month. If the war won't be
over until then I'll leave the country. I was planning to commence studies in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region></st1:place>
this year. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Some of our readers would doubtlessly want to write to you, and
you will not be able to respond to them from prison. Would you like to say
something to them now?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:11.25pt;
margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:11.25pt;text-align:justify;background:#F0F0F0'><font
size=3 color="#333333" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#333333'>Even before I committed the actual act of refusing to serve, I
emailed all my friends all over the world – in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region>
, in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Italy</st1:country-region> , in the States
and even in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
<ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE>I
told them that what I am going to do in the nearest days is thanks to that
wonderful support they've always given me. Almost immediately I got numerous
responses of encouragement and solidarity. This is very important to us: we may
like think we can do anything on our own, but the international support is
wonderful and I'm deeply grateful to all those who support us. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='background:#F0F0F0'><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"></ST1:PERSONNAME><strong><b><font
size=1 color="#333333" face="Trebuchet MS"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
8.5pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS";color:#333333'>
Dimi
Reider, Tel Aviv</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='background:#F0F0F0'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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