[LCM Articles] Lebanese Polls (fwd)
Loai Naamani
loai at MIT.EDU
Sun Mar 13 00:00:39 EST 2005
Dear all,
Thank you for the constructive debate. To keep this inline with the well-mannered and peaceful efforts taking place by ALL those
demonstrating in Lebanon, please keep your arguments and criticism targeted at the matter in question and not the person on the
other side.
An "illogical" email/argument does not equate to an illogical author nor does it justify accusing them of "negative IQ" nor
presuming they think they're the "only intelligent life form on Earth". It's an oxymoron to preach respect for others' opinions and
then slash them for voicing such opinions. Practice what you preach, or feel free to take your arguments elsewhere (personal email)
without abiding by the regulations of this moderated list.
For the record, once and for all, those pictures being circulated have NOTHING to do with Tuesday's demonstration. Pictures may say
it better than words, but a quick glance at the very words surrounding those pictures (and the nightfall behind the protesters) make
this obvious. In fact, the people in this picture were accompanying Kanso and Qandil in their Saturday night rampage through
Achrafieh; it was live on TV and published in the papers days before Tuesday's demonstration!
Those people are scum and not at all representative of the hundreds of thousands demonstrating on Tuesday, which according to many
is the largest human gathering in Lebanese history, whether others like to admit it or not. It's very misleading to use this picture
in supporting any argument; otherwise please don't tell me you'll accept the currently attached picture as a counterargument!
I also hope we do not mistake the hundreds of thousands Nasrallah was yelling to on Tuesday as mostly comprised of Syrians brought
from across the borders. To believe so is to shun off a substantial slice of fellow compatriots who have an equally valid take on
the issue(s) at hand. And they are inferior in neither quality nor quantity to those demonstrating elsewhere.
That said, I believe the Tuesday demonstration isn't something to be ridiculed, taken lightly, or even misinterpreted in the fashion
Western media has portrayed it (knowingly or unknowingly) as a staged pro-Syrian protest. If anything, I think this all attests to a
genuine polarization that needs to be addressed. Thankfully, there's a lot they all (various demonstrating camps) agree upon in one
form or another. Capitalizing on that will hopefully bring the country from the current turmoil to a stage of sufficient stability
and maturity to then democratically address the rest.
Thanks,
L.
-----Original Message-----
From: lebanon-articles-bounces at MIT.EDU [mailto:lebanon-articles-bounces at MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Sleiman Itani
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 10:52 PM
To: Maurice Hage-Obeid
Cc: saad mneimneh; lebanon-articles at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [LCM Articles] Lebanese Polls (fwd)
Do you want something illogical? It is you thinking (or even claiming)
that the mou3arada represents the Lebanese people. Another illogical
thing: LBC which used to try to prove that Hariri is the spawn of
Satan,and that he is destroying the country to get money; now is
praising him and saying that he was the only hope of Lebanon. (Think of
a reason why they would do that-lie in one of the two cases-: Maybe
because they don't really care about Lebanon!!!!)
Don't get me wrong. I actually look down at the Syrian regime, probably
more than any other regime in the world (since Saddam is down now.)
Fact: The Hizbullah demonstration literally dwarfed the over-grown ego
of the mou3arada. "7attit inno2at 3al7roof". It said to those who claim
they represent Lebanon:" You are not the majority, not even close to
representing half of the Lebanese people." If you don't believe me, read
the Times. Use your mathematical skills to compare the number of people
and your great logic to know what democracy and majority mean.
Fact: The politicians on the mou3arada's side will probably be more
corrupt than the government that we have (which is saying a lot since it
is very f**** up.) So now 3oun cares about Lebanon and not a certain
sect. You have to have a negative IQ to believe that.
Fact: This discussion by itself proves that we Lebanese don't agree (you
might need some time to really understand this, but: We don't agree, and
that might be a good thing- if we were cultured human being who respect
the opinions of others.)
So please respect other people's ideas and don't think that you are the
only form of intelligent life on Earth (or from Lebanon). I have some
news for you (sit down, this might be shocking): Even you might be
wrong. So please respect other people's opinions even if you don't agree
with them.
Take care and keep smiling, you're Lebanese.
On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 21:03, Maurice Hage-Obeid wrote:
> Thank you for replying adequately to such a weak, illogical, and
> unfounded email.
>
> Maurice Hage-Obeid
>
>
> At 05:51 PM 3/12/2005 -0800, Jessy E. wrote:
> > With all due respect:
> >
> > (1)
> > it's such a conspiracy theory statement to say that the UN is
> > "unofficially and virtually a US operated organization". The reps of
> > over 50 countries who met in 1945 to put together the U.N Charter
> > were not brought together by your so called "unofficial" U.S
> > organization, they were brought together for an ideal (maybe too
> > ambitious if you want) to achieve and work on international peace
> > and security, yes they may have failed at times, but they are still
> > looked at as an unbiased body. Do not forget the U.N resolutions
> > condemning Israel for the many atrocities against Palestenians--The
> > U.S always vetoed and Israel always declined voting-- And so the U.N
> > was always looked at as a body that at least attempts to put things
> > back in persepective-- We look up to the U>N because they at least
> > have a security resolution that demands the Syrians to leave Lebanon
> > and if it weren't for them none of the Arab countries would dare say
> > such a thing in public.
> >
> > (2)
> > The thousands of young men and women sitting in Martyr square are
> > not holding signs that say "U.S in" they are holding signs that say
> > "Syria out". So why in the world whenever for once we stand up to
> > ask for something that is our absolute right, all of a sudden we are
> > accused of inviting foreign intervention to a "sister" country? so
> > I really do not see the link here, as for your question why do we
> > seek outside help if we really believe in Freedom and independence?
> > Well that's because my fellow Lebanese if we did indeed learn
> > anything from history that will be that our week quasi-Syrian
> > government will never stand up to Syria and if we get the help of
> > the international community to claim our rights then you know what?
> > By all means, I would a zillion times rather get the help of the
> > Americans to kick the Syrian out, then to stay for another 30 years
> > under occupation with a so called Lebanese Government that does not
> > even consider that we are under Syria's occu! pation and it repeats
> > to us the stupid, cliche, ignorant claim that "Syria is our sister
> > country". Nobody is asking for military intervention, nobody is
> > asking for another occupation, if anything the demonstrations taking
> > place are the most peaceful we have ever seen, apart from the
> > "ignorant few" who carried guns in Tripoli and those ignarant other
> > few who were photographed with knives and tattoos of the Syrian
> > president during the demonstration called for by Nasrallah.
> >
> > Here are a few questions for you to seriously think of:
> >
> > Our bad economy? Syria plays the lead role in it. Do you forget the
> > BILLIONS of dollars Syria makes from Lebanon every year just by
> > maintaining its grip over us?
> >
> > Did you ever wonder WHY IN THE WORLD does Syria not maintain an
> > Embassy in Lebanon? Did you ever wonder Why Lebanon does not have an
> > embassy in Syria? How in the world can two countries not maintain
> > diplomatic ties with each other unless there is no respect to the
> > sovereignty of the coutries? I'll tell you why, Syria has ALWAYS and
> > WILL continue to consider Lebanon a part of its own, and until it
> > realizes that we are very far from being Syrian, it will refuse to
> > maitain diplomatic ties by having an official embassy in Lebanon.
> >
> > And about the Batrak not taking the Sheikh with him to the
> > U.S?????????? I'm sorry I didn't know they are supposed to escort
> > each other on official visits!!!! since when does the Batrak have to
> > let the Sheikh know "hey buddy wanna catch a flight to the U.S with
> > me?!!" I am sure if the Sheikh desires a trip to the U.S then
> > nothing would stop him, there shouldn't be any pouting I would
> > think!
> >
> > (3) It really is uncalled for to poke fun at the fact that pple
> > prayed in their own way and brought candles to show unity and
> > support. This was and is the most spontaneous act that all the
> > Lebanese have ever engage in that your remarks serve nothing but to
> > undermine the will of people who felt so enraged at what happened
> > they decided to do something about it instead of staying home and
> > bitching about it.
> > You may think they are wasting their time downtown but to the whole
> > world they have written history and pessimist views like your own
> > have never and will never serve Lebanon.
> >
> >
> >
> > saad mneimneh <saad at engr.smu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> >
> > Some of you might remember me, I was active in the Lebanese
> > Club at MIT
> >
> > few years ago.
> >
> > In light of what is happening, I would like to say a few
> > words about the
> >
> > situation.
> >
> >
> > ... And just to put everything into perspective, I am Muslim
> > Sunni for
> >
> > those interested in knowing.
> >
> > But I consider myself to be really Sunshimarorthodruzy.
> >
> >
> > Few points:
> >
> >
> > (1)
> >
> > The consolidation of lebanese people around one cause "A
> > free lebanon"
> >
> > is a very shallow one. A majority of "leaders" in this
> > movement did not
> >
> > like Hariri to begin with. But we Lebanese like so much the
> > concept of
> >
> > leaders... If fact, we are the leaders... of anything... Now
> > let's drop
> >
> > this fact and say that this is ok because, well, Hariri is a
> > human being
> >
> > after all and he is one of us, and what happened is so
> > major... and
> >
> > what's wrong in finding a common ground f! or all of us to
> > stand on? Very
> >
> > good. So we want independence, freedom, and all these nice
> > things...
> >
> > And we are together... Excellent... So we call USA and UN
> > (which is
> >
> > unofficially and virtually a US operated organization) for
> > help and we
> >
> > sing the French National Anthem! Contradiction? Noooo of
> > course not, who
> >
> > can dare to say something like that...?
> >
> >
> > (2)
> >
> > But not to worry, as I said, we have Leaders... Let's just
> > follow our
> >
> > Leaders... Fortunately or Unfortunately, we are the leaders
> > in the whole
> >
> > universe in implementing the concept of divide and
> > conquer... except
> >
> > that we implement it for others on ourselves....And very
> > willingly and
> >
> > easily too... Why do we always seek outside "help" if we
> > truely believe
> >
> > in freedom and independence. I don't think we really know
> > what we
> >
> > believe in... And haven't we learned from history that
> > countries like
> >
> > USA care just about an epsilon about the people of the
> > middle east? Or
> >
> > maybe we do not consider oursel! ves part of the middle
> > east, because
> >
> > Libnan Ya It3et Sama! Do we not have a vision? Do we want to
> > kick Syria
> >
> > out no matter what the cost is? And why not distinguish
> > between the
> >
> > Syrian regime and the syrian people...? Maybe they are not
> > human beings
> >
> > like us and suffered as much as we did? Let's put our hands
> > into the
> >
> > hands of Bush... His is a cool cowboy... Me must identify
> > with him so
> >
> > that the world will look at us as modern.... Let them bomb
> > Syria if they
> >
> > refuse to leave... Let them destroy the oldest city on
> > Earth, like they
> >
> > did to Bagdad.... Let them make the Syrian people suffer, as
> > if we do
> >
> > not know anything about suffering...! Is this what we really
> > want? Syria
> >
> > out? maybe yes, but USA in? definitely NO!
> >
> >
> > (3)
> >
> > Consolidation.... I don't think that was consolidation in
> > any way. The
> >
> > young generation does not know much about the history. In
> > fact it was so
> >
> > confusing that even old people do not really understand what
> > happened...
> >
> > The youn! g poeple woke up today, for them the war is maybe
> > centered
> >
> > around few things, like the syrian presence in lebanon. They
> > know some
> >
> > names from the past, they heard their parents talking
> > about... They
> >
> > often confuse past and present because those names are still
> > the same...
> >
> > They think they know the history... Well they definitely
> > know elissa,
> >
> > nancy, and hayfa... and few other stupid things... They know
> > the $$ not
> >
> > the LL, they know how to speak English and French, not
> > Arabic... They
> >
> > know how to jump around on bicycles in downtown...
> >
> >
> > "Yes, we young lebanese really like to go to Downtown, and
> > we are
> >
> > experts in wasting time, so we might as well participate in
> > this "war",
> >
> > why not if we can achieve peace, and hey bring some candles,
> > and by the
> >
> > way why not also pray each in his own way... wow that looks
> > cool and
> >
> > nice... let's do it often.... we are now united...! How
> > about we go and
> >
> > listen to hayfa after we are done with this demonstration?"
> >
> >
> > Ar! e we united? Of course we are, this is why the Batrak
> > goes to USA
> >
> > alone without the Sheikh? Now who truely believes that we
> > are united? I
> >
> > wish we are.
> >
> >
> > (4)
> >
> > And what is this concept about people who love lebanon and
> > people who
> >
> > don't? So for instance, and speaking in general about
> > ordinary people,
> >
> > why would anyone in lebanon not love lebanon? Well yes
> > sometimes we
> >
> > don't love that country in the sense that
> >
> >
> > "F*** this economical situation where I cannot raise my
> > family, or F***
> >
> > this educational system where I cannot compete with the
> > developed world,
> >
> > or F*** this pollution covering the city, or F*** this
> > traffic that
> >
> > holds me for hours in my car, or F*** and F*** and F***"...
> > Now does
> >
> > this make me a hater of lebanon?
> >
> >
> >
> > 100% of what I predicted happened: The goverment will
> > resign, another
> >
> > almost identical one will emerge.
> >
> > Not a surprise... The names are the same since 30 years ago,
> > and we,
> >
> > lebanese people, like the concept of leaders... What do you
> > expect? just
> >
> > a regular guy or girl from the street to become president or
> > minister...
> >
> > WOW! WHAT A CONCEPT!
> >
> >
> >
> > saad.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Lebanon-Articles mailing list
> >
> > Lebanon-Articles at mit.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/lebanon-articles
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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