From leifj at it.su.se  Mon Jun  9 17:06:33 2003
From: leifj at it.su.se (Leif Johansson)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:06:33 +0200
Subject: [Kdc-info] blasphemy
Message-ID: <3EE4F6D9.10403@it.su.se>


To actually start the design-process and make sure it goes quicker than 
so far (sorry)
I have created a first draft UML-diagram of the information-model. 
Writing text from
this once we are happy with the diagram should be relatively painless. I 
have given some
thoughts to the multiplicity of the associations and to the types 
involved but not to the
names in the model. Note that the names need have nothing to do with the 
names in
any schema we eventually write from this.

I have a couple of specific questions:

    * Is the keyversion associated with the key or with the principal?
    * Is the auxilliary key data (I was thinking about AES requirements) 
appropriate?
    * What exactly goes into password policy?

There is a gif of the diagram but if you like to suggest edits (yes 
please!) you need to
get Poseidon for UML. The "Community Edition" is free but needs java to 
run. Its a
really nice UML-tool btw.

          http://www.gentleware.com

I still hope to make the -00 cutoff for a first draft of the information 
model.

       Cheers Leif
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From raeburn at MIT.EDU  Tue Jun 10 23:23:14 2003
From: raeburn at MIT.EDU (Ken Raeburn)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:23:14 -0400
Subject: [Kdc-info] blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <3EE4F6D9.10403@it.su.se> (Leif Johansson's message of "Mon, 09
 Jun 2003 23:06:33 +0200")
References: <3EE4F6D9.10403@it.su.se>
Message-ID: <tx1smqhqov1.fsf@mit.edu>

Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>     * Is the keyversion associated with the key or with the principal?

With the key -- or, perhaps, a set of keys.  We might want the model
to reinforce "my key is at version 4 and supports triple-DES and RC4"
rather than "my DES key is at version 4 and my AES key is at version
5".  At least, I *think* that's the way it needs to work.  I haven't
tried to really wrap my head around a way of making the second
approach work, but I don't think it would.  But maybe the model
doesn't necessarily need to reinforce that.

Not associated with the principal -- if you want to rekey a service,
you want to keep the old key around on the KDC a while so people can
renew tickets previously issued.

What "flags" do you imagine being associated with a key?
At this level, isn't it appropriate to spell them out?

>     * Is the auxilliary key data (I was thinking about AES
> requirements) appropriate?

We need something like that, but I'm not sure how to store it.  All
the KDC would care about would be the octet string form, but that's
not what the admin system is going to care about.

>     * What exactly goes into password policy?

Good question.  I'll try to get to looking over the LDAP password
policy stuff soon, for some ideas.

Some random thoughts:

I think there would be at least two categories of password-related
policies: (1) when is a password change needed (including "now"); (2)
what new passwords are allowed.  I don't know if they'd be entirely
independent; "you chose a short password, so you're going to have to
change it again tomorrow."  "When is a password change permitted"
needs to be covered, but probably would fit in one of those two
categories.

Non-password policies and other info:

 - require preauth? what kind? handle for auxiliary data for preauth
   system, which might or might not be associated with key version
   numbers. (srp: probably associated with key and kvno; smart card:
   not associated)

 - can initial tickets be issued for this principal?  (probably not
   for many random service principals, in many environments)  boolean?

 - can service tickets be issued for this principal?  (probably not
   for most user principals with relatively weak keys) boolean?

 - supported encryption types for service principals, since Kerberos
   doesn't allow the client and server to negotiate.  MIT currently
   overloads the set of service keys for this purpose, but they really
   should be separate.

Principal aliases?

(Sorry for the rambling, I'm trying to head home shortly, and just
want to get some of this down so I don't forget it.  Let me know if
I'm diving into too low a level of detail for the stuff we want.)


BTW, I'm wondering if we should revisit the conclusion we came to (in
Atlanta?) that the "minimal model" approach boiled down to almost
nothing and thus wasn't interesting.  A "minimum practical model"
probably wouldn't use some of the hacks we were talking about (like
having clients renew tickets frequently in lieu of storing max ticket
lifetimes and/or expiration dates in the database), but wouldn't need
nearly all the features the current KDC databases support.

I think Sam or someone else at the London(?) meeting argued for it,
and wasn't there when we decided to drop it.  I don't recall the
arguments for doing the miminal model.

Ken

From leifj at it.su.se  Wed Jun 11 04:53:59 2003
From: leifj at it.su.se (Leif Johansson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:53:59 +0200
Subject: [Kdc-info] blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <tx1smqhqov1.fsf@mit.edu>
References: <3EE4F6D9.10403@it.su.se> <tx1smqhqov1.fsf@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3EE6EE27.3000104@it.su.se>

Ken Raeburn wrote:

>Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>  
>
>>    * Is the keyversion associated with the key or with the principal?
>>    
>>
>
>With the key -- or, perhaps, a set of keys.  We might want the model
>to reinforce "my key is at version 4 and supports triple-DES and RC4"
>rather than "my DES key is at version 4 and my AES key is at version
>5".  At least, I *think* that's the way it needs to work.  I haven't
>tried to really wrap my head around a way of making the second
>approach work, but I don't think it would.  But maybe the model
>doesn't necessarily need to reinforce that.
>
There are two issues here:

1. Separation of key-stuff from non-key stuff in the model.
2. Association of the key version to the keytype.

Issue 1 is a requirement of our work!  We need to be very careful  about 
what
attribute we associate with principals. If the version is associated 
with the keyset
then we probably need a new keyset object which has a 1-1 association 
with the
principal but is separate from it.

>
>Not associated with the principal -- if you want to rekey a service,
>you want to keep the old key around on the KDC a while so people can
>renew tickets previously issued.
>  
>
Good point!

>What "flags" do you imagine being associated with a key?
>At this level, isn't it appropriate to spell them out?
>  
>
Yes. I was thinking about (from hdb.asn1)

HDBFlags ::= BIT STRING {
        initial(0),             -- require as-req
        forwardable(1),         -- may issue forwardable
        proxiable(2),           -- may issue proxiable
        renewable(3),           -- may issue renewable
        postdate(4),            -- may issue postdatable
        server(5),              -- may be server
        client(6),              -- may be client
        invalid(7),             -- entry is invalid
        require-preauth(8),     -- must use preauth
        change-pw(9),           -- change password service
        require-hwauth(10),     -- must use hwauth
        ok-as-delegate(11),     -- as in TicketFlags
        user-to-user(12),       -- may use user-to-user auth
        immutable(13)           -- may not be deleted
}

But those are clearly associated with the pricipal.

>  
>
>>    * Is the auxilliary key data (I was thinking about AES
>>requirements) appropriate?
>>    
>>
>
>We need something like that, but I'm not sure how to store it.  All
>the KDC would care about would be the octet string form, but that's
>not what the admin system is going to care about.
>  
>
The admin system will have to understand how to encode the auxilliary data.
This is essentially the same discussion we had about policy recently. Isn't
a typed blob all you can hope to do in a general schema/model?

>  
>
>>    * What exactly goes into password policy?
>>    
>>
>
>Good question.  I'll try to get to looking over the LDAP password
>policy stuff soon, for some ideas.
>  
>
Good!

>Some random thoughts:
>
>I think there would be at least two categories of password-related
>policies: (1) when is a password change needed (including "now"); (2)
>what new passwords are allowed.  I don't know if they'd be entirely
>independent; "you chose a short password, so you're going to have to
>change it again tomorrow."  "When is a password change permitted"
>needs to be covered, but probably would fit in one of those two
>categories.
>
>Non-password policies and other info:
>
> - require preauth? what kind? handle for auxiliary data for preauth
>   system, which might or might not be associated with key version
>   numbers. (srp: probably associated with key and kvno; smart card:
>   not associated)
>
> - can initial tickets be issued for this principal?  (probably not
>   for many random service principals, in many environments)  boolean?
>
> - can service tickets be issued for this principal?  (probably not
>   for most user principals with relatively weak keys) boolean?
>
> - supported encryption types for service principals, since Kerberos
>   doesn't allow the client and server to negotiate.  MIT currently
>   overloads the set of service keys for this purpose, but they really
>   should be separate.
>  
>
Are these general enough to warrant specification in the model? Maybe...

>Principal aliases?
>  
>
Very good!

>(Sorry for the rambling, I'm trying to head home shortly, and just
>want to get some of this down so I don't forget it.  Let me know if
>I'm diving into too low a level of detail for the stuff we want.)
>  
>
No, great stuff.

       Cheers Leif


From leifj at it.su.se  Wed Jun 25 03:05:08 2003
From: leifj at it.su.se (Leif Johansson)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:05:08 +0200
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
Message-ID: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se>

I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info document based on the
UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but I'd rather have something more
substantial for this list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.

         Cheers Leif


From hartmans at MIT.EDU  Wed Jun 25 18:41:27 2003
From: hartmans at MIT.EDU (Sam Hartman)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:41:27 -0400
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se> (Leif Johansson's message of "Wed,
 25 Jun 2003 09:05:08 +0200")
References: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se>
Message-ID: <tsln0g5bx0o.fsf@mit.edu>

>>>>> "Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:

    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.

    Leif>          Cheers Leif

You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.


From leifj at it.su.se  Thu Jun 26 02:20:56 2003
From: leifj at it.su.se (Leif Johansson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:20:56 +0200
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <tsln0g5bx0o.fsf@mit.edu>
References: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se> <tsln0g5bx0o.fsf@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3EFA90C8.7000703@it.su.se>

Sam Hartman wrote:

>>>>>>"Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
>    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
>    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
>    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
>    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
>
>    Leif>          Cheers Leif
>
>You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
>probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
>
>  
>
I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like to
schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.

       Cheers Leif


From Morteza.Ansari at sun.com  Thu Jun 26 03:14:33 2003
From: Morteza.Ansari at sun.com (Morteza Ansari)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:14:33 -0700
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
References: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se> <tsln0g5bx0o.fsf@mit.edu>
	<3EFA90C8.7000703@it.su.se>
Message-ID: <3EFA9D59.F4976320@sun.com>

Leif Johansson wrote:
> 
> Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> >>>>>>"Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >
> >    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
> >    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
> >    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
> >    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
> >
> >    Leif>          Cheers Leif
> >
> >You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
> >probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
> >
> >
> >
> I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like to
> schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.

I will be there.


Cheers,
Morteza

From hahnt at us.ibm.com  Thu Jun 26 08:00:04 2003
From: hahnt at us.ibm.com (Timothy Hahn)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:00:04 -0400
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <3EFA90C8.7000703@it.su.se>
Message-ID: <OFE3B81E72.4D49B650-ON85256D51.003F08C5-85256D51.0041ECDC@us.ibm.com>

Hi all,

FYI - I will not be in Vienna.

Regards,
Tim Hahn

Internet: hahnt at us.ibm.com
Internal: Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM at IBMUS
phone: 919.224.1565     tie-line: 8/687.1565
fax: 919.224.2540





Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se>
Sent by: kdc-info-bounces at mit.edu
06/26/2003 02:20 AM
 
        To:     Sam Hartman <hartmans at mit.edu>
        cc:     kdc-info at mit.edu
        Subject:        Re: [Kdc-info] rsn


Sam Hartman wrote:

>>>>>>"Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>
>    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
>    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
>    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
>    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
>
>    Leif>          Cheers Leif
>
>You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
>probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
>
> 
>
I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like 
to
schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.

       Cheers Leif

_______________________________________________
kdc-info mailing list
kdc-info at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info

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From wyllys.ingersoll at sun.com  Thu Jun 26 08:49:04 2003
From: wyllys.ingersoll at sun.com (Wyllys Ingersoll)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:49:04 -0400
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <3EFA90C8.7000703@it.su.se>
References: <3EF949A4.3030508@it.su.se> <tsln0g5bx0o.fsf@mit.edu>
	<3EFA90C8.7000703@it.su.se>
Message-ID: <3EFAEBC0.2050004@sun.com>


I will be there.

-Wyllys


Leif Johansson wrote:
> Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> "Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>>>>>>>           
>>
>>
>>    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
>>    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
>>    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
>>    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
>>
>>    Leif>          Cheers Leif
>>
>> You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
>> probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
>>
>>  
>>
> I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like to
> schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.
> 
>       Cheers Leif
> 
> _______________________________________________
> kdc-info mailing list
> kdc-info at mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info



From lukeh at PADL.COM  Thu Jun 26 14:18:13 2003
From: lukeh at PADL.COM (Luke Howard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:18:13 +1000
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
Message-ID: <200306261818.EAA53438@au.padl.com>


I will be...

-- Luke

>From: Timothy Hahn <hahnt at us.ibm.com>
>Subject: Re: [Kdc-info] rsn
>To: kdc-info at mit.edu
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:00:04 -0400
>
>[Attachment: a1, multipart/signed]
> 
>Hi all, 
>
>FYI - I will not be in Vienna. 
>
>Regards,
>Tim Hahn
>
>Internet: hahnt at us.ibm.com
>Internal: Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM at IBMUS
>phone: 919.224.1565     tie-line: 8/687.1565
>fax: 919.224.2540
> 
>
>
> 
> Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> 
>Sent by: kdc-info-bounces at mit.edu 
>
>06/26/2003 02:20 AM          
>        To:        Sam Hartman <hartmans at mit.edu> 
>        cc:        kdc-info at mit.edu 
>        Subject:        Re: [Kdc-info] rsn 
>
>
>Sam Hartman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>"Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>>
>>
>>    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
>>    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
>>    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
>>    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
>>
>>    Leif>          Cheers Leif
>>
>>You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
>>probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
>>
>>  
>>
>I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like to
>schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.
>
>      Cheers Leif
>
>_______________________________________________
>kdc-info mailing list
>kdc-info at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>kdc-info mailing list
>kdc-info at mit.edu
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info
>

--
Luke Howard | PADL Software Pty Ltd | www.padl.com

From leifj at it.su.se  Thu Jun 26 14:19:12 2003
From: leifj at it.su.se (Leif Johansson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:19:12 +0200
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <200306261818.EAA53438@au.padl.com>
References: <200306261818.EAA53438@au.padl.com>
Message-ID: <3EFB3920.1040000@it.su.se>

Luke Howard wrote:

>I will be...
>
>  
>
It will be nice to meet you finally :-)



From bob.joslin at hp.com  Thu Jun 26 15:41:36 2003
From: bob.joslin at hp.com (Bob Joslin)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:41:36 -0700
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
In-Reply-To: <D453C315CE4D3D4889BB0B6E127859D30324ED6E@xsun05.ptp.hp.com>
Message-ID: <000601c33c1a$f5009c20$a6820d0f@cup.hp.com>

I'm afraid I won't be able to make it, but I may have another
representative.

Bob Joslin

-----Original Message-----
From: kdc-info-bounces at mit.edu [mailto:kdc-info-bounces at mit.edu] On Behalf
Of Leif Johansson
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:21 PM
To: Sam Hartman
Cc: kdc-info at mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Kdc-info] rsn


Sam Hartman wrote:

>>>>>>"Leif" == Leif Johansson <leifj at it.su.se> writes:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
>    Leif> I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info
>    Leif> document based on the UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but
>    Leif> I'd rather have something more substantial for this
>    Leif> list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.
>
>    Leif>          Cheers Leif
>
>You may want to copy the main working group list on the draft.  We
>probably also want to have agenda time to discuss.
>
>  
>
I'll do that. How many of the usual suspects will be in Wienna? I'd like to
schedule a hallway meeting on the information model.

       Cheers Leif

_______________________________________________
kdc-info mailing list
kdc-info at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info


From donnas at us.ibm.com  Mon Jun 30 15:28:52 2003
From: donnas at us.ibm.com (Donna Skibbie)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:28:52 -0500
Subject: [Kdc-info] rsn
Message-ID: <OFC94D446B.6B2DA9B9-ON87256D55.006AE49A@us.ibm.com>

I will not be able to come to the Vienna meeting.

Donna Skibbie, Distributed Systems Architect
IBM Corporation; 11400 Burnet Road; Austin, TX 78758 USA
Tel.: +1(512)838-3896 T/L 678; Fax: 8597
donnas at us.ibm.com


Sent by:        kdc-info-bounces at mit.edu
To:     kdc-info at mit.edu
cc: 
Subject:        [Kdc-info] rsn



I have almost finished a first draft of the kdc-info document based on the
UML-design. I missed the 00 cutoff but I'd rather have something more
substantial for this list. I'll post the draft here in a day or two.

Cheers Leif

_______________________________________________
kdc-info mailing list
kdc-info at mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kdc-info

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