<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Hi Yongsu<div><br></div><div>Fig 5,7,8 in the following paper are measures of sensitivity, the inverse of which would give uncertainty measures. </div><div><br></div><div>This would be my advice : get UQ in these parameters via forward perturbations & adjoint sensitivity, as in the paper, + throw in some linear assumptions to get to uncertainties.</div><div><br></div><div>Don’t hesitate to follow up to my email directly if you’d like to collaborate on this sort of calculations. Should be able to help.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(70, 70, 70); color: rgb(70, 70, 70); font-family: "Open Sans", "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Forget, G., Ferreira, D., and Liang, X.: On the observability of turbulent transport rates by Argo: supporting evidence from an inversion experiment, Ocean Sci., 11, 839–853, https://doi.org/10.5194/os-11-839-2015, 2015</span></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(70, 70, 70); color: rgb(70, 70, 70); font-family: "Open Sans", "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div>The other plots in the paper that show coefficient maps or coeff adjustment maps can also simply be interpreted in terms of uncertainty — whenever they are green, ie the coefficient was not changed by optimisation, mean 100% uncertainty prevailed due to lack of effective data constraint. </div><div><br></div><div>On top of my head I don’t know that we have added more effective constraints to mixing parameters since the 2015 paper. So you can just look at the v4r2 coefficients for simplicity.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope this helps.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Gaël</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 15, 2024, at 11:24, NA Yongsu <ynaab@connect.ust.hk> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕"">Dear Dimitris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕"">Well noted. I appreciate your sharing!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕"">Best,<br>
Yongsu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Menemenlis, Dimitris (US 329B) <dimitris.menemenlis@jpl.nasa.gov>
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<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2024 8:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ECCO support list, wider membership <ecco-support@mit.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> NA Yongsu <ynaab@connect.ust.hk><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ecco-support] About the uncertainties of mixing parameters in v4r4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Yongsu, unfortunately I do not know how to answer your question except to note that (1) anything that has to do with “prior” ECCO uncertainties is very empirical and arbitrary, as you suspect that it is, and (2)
we do not yet have full formal posterior uncertainties for the ECCO solutions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Some attempts here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020MS002386">https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020MS002386</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/79291">https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/79291</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://usclivar.org/sites/default/files/meetings/2015/abstracts/HeimbachLooseNguyen_AMOC2018_36698.pdf">https://usclivar.org/sites/default/files/meetings/2015/abstracts/HeimbachLooseNguyen_AMOC2018_36698.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://repository.oceanbestpractices.org/bitstream/handle/11329/1216/130925311.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y">https://repository.oceanbestpractices.org/bitstream/handle/11329/1216/130925311.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/marine-science/articles/10.3389/fmars.2019.00055/full">https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/marine-science/articles/10.3389/fmars.2019.00055/full</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I throw your question(s) back to ECCO Support list in case someone else has better answer(s).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Cheers, Dimitris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">On Jul 13, 2024, at 8:45</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">PM, NA Yongsu <<a href="mailto:ynaab@connect.ust.hk">ynaab@connect.ust.hk</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Dear Dimitris Menemenlis,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Thanks for reading this email. I'm Yongsu Na, a PhD student at Hong Kong UST. I've been developing a regional state estimate in the South China Sea based on ECCO v4r4.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">I previously inquired ecco-support about how the uncertainty field of diffkr was computed (<a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/ecco-support/2024-March/000741.html__;!!PvBDto6Hs4WbVuu7!PT3QaF9mkSwjpukwGNvwAE1gsu14mWNmdwdAJXJrM3vibERAF_USuilNsjOYE894DB4BuEHDC7qg6hSkRDDKLJp6$">https://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/ecco-support/2024-March/000741.html</a>),
but couldn't get a reply. I wonder if you could provide me any clues or hints on it. Thank you in advance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Yongsu Na<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Mar 19, 2024, at 7:06</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US">AM, NA Yongsu <<a href="mailto:ynaab@connect.ust.hk">ynaab@connect.ust.hk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear ECCO support team,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I wonder how the uncertainty fields for the three mixing parameters were produced, and how the bounds (specified in data.ctrl) for them were
decided. Are they based on a similar way with producing the uncertainties of the atmospheric forcings and the initial conditions? All I could find is a short information in Forget et al. (2015). I’d be thankful if you could direct me to some related materials.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">If they are given rather empirically/arbitrarily, will there be any reasonable uncertainty fields for 3d-varying mixing parameters? I’ve been
testing a 3d diffkr field produced based on (sparse) observations for my regional state estimate, but using v4r4’s uncertainty field (with interpolation) seems inappropriate if I expect diffkr to be adjusted in log scale along the iterative optimization (the
issue reported in Trossman et al. (2022)). Using larger uncertainties (e.g. x10 on the 3d diffkr), with bounds to avoid diffkr from going minus, actually allows diffkr to be adjusted in log scale. But with those large uncertainties, there is an issue that
the state estimation doesn’t show consistent convergence towards observational constraints. Any comments would be appreciated!</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best wishes,<br>
Yongsu Na</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">PhD student<br>
Department of Ocean Science<br>
Hong Kong University of Science and Technology</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">----- </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
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